##VIDEO ID:3Z9yIfNFsGM## e e e e e e e e e wow that's stunning we need different lighting a different lighting have to do e e e for I think he goes everybody just meeting our missing our fearless leader he he's been admitted so just need to see his face maybe doesn't want to show up good evening everyone evening hello evening Nathan have a quorum here so I will call this meeting on the sh spry playing board to order note that the meeting is being recorded there is there anyone who would like to make public comment this evening I'm not hearing anything that being the case we'll move on to our next agenda item which is to set a public hearing for special permit application for 72 Baker Road serus Incorporated wind turbine I see Linda is here good evening Linda thank you for coming to me I wonder if the easiest thing to do here would be to schedule public hearing for our next regularly scheduled meeting which uh does fall with within 45 day window uh if that's uh Linda do we have audio with you um are you able to can you hear us I'm having trouble hearing you can you hear me I can hear you yes can everyone else hear me okay or no what you say okay everybody else so just so we would we will be talking about having a a public hearing on February 10th okay does that uh is that uh work uh sure yes okay so that's what we'll do now we just need to decide what time uh probably early in the meeting um probably yes right so uh we could just set the time should we go right into it at 7 o'clock or maybe 7:05 710 anyone um 7:05 yeah yeah give a little moment for a public comment and then just jump right in okay um do I hear a motion to set the wheels and motion to do your motion to have a public hearing for the ser ious special permanent application and all its details um February 10th at 7:05 PM no moved Zen okay any discussion I'm pretty sure I have to abstain from this vote even for the special permit uh hearing being in a butter well you know what that's uh that may be true and that may be also true for Robert so I'd like to ask somebody else to second the motion Oh I thought I already had Nathan Okay I uh I thought I saw Robert and maybe you guys both did at the same time and I only saw one of you so all right we'll say that Michael moved and Deacon seconded and all right so now I'll call the role of the uh board members who are here and are not going to be recusing themselves from this matter DEA hi prestler uh I won't be able to attend I'll be on vacation but I that that's fine you can still vote on this and boner I I'm an i the motion passes um so that's it the uh special or the uh the hearing for the special permit is set and that's that's all we need um tonight so uh thank you both for uh just kind of coming to uh confirm that and uh we'll look forward to hearing from you again um on the uh at the at the public hearing as I'm sure you know I mean it's we kind of went through the application previously uh when you came to our December meeting but once we have the public hearing it's uh you know it's a big time you know that that'll be you know your presentation to the board um to provide justification for a grant of the uh special permit thank you very much thank you have a wonderful evening and you too see you next month goodbye this time we have a few minutes before public hearing we have scheduled tonight well I would like to quickly know you know I know we've got some minutes we're looking at later and I want to just not um Mato you know I was uh kind of looking at the minutes recently and I noticed that some of the Roll Call votes um you are not recording the uh the actual responses from each um member and so with with a with a remote meeting or generally with any vote that's taken by roll call uh the response of uh each member needs to be uh recorded I believe just an a side on that um Nathan yes tell when I exchanged I I had the same comments in some of the minutes I don't know why he didn't try in he said that things change but that I was suggesting to just is a a practice for us it's it makes it better recordkeeping to know where people stand even if it's not required since we've been doing it for the last few years anyway yeah okay that's uh it's good to know that that's uh like that so we have to do roll call votes but it's uh as far as a go it's technically not a requirement to uh record each vote I didn't know there to change buto said that he checked with Grace but um he could probably speak for himself I I never noticed that it got changed um Mato I'm assuming you're there I am here um I didn't want to say anything unless I was asked yeah so great I did check with Grace about it after Michael and I had uh had an email exchanged back and forth with this question and she said that open meeting law does not require uh individual votes to be indicated and in the in the event of a unanimous vote um okay the it still needs to be taken by roll call um we can't do like raise a hand or does anybody disagree kind of things um but the minutes don't need to reflect it unless there are distinguishing votes like certain people saying yay certain people saying nay certain people abstaining so if there are abstentions for example those are noted in the minute by whoever abstains I I'm happy to keep doing it the other way if that's again as Michael said if it's sort of um custom for the board if and what people are used to it's yeah I mean I I would agree with that it's you know at the very least it kind of makes it easier if you're looking through you know three or four pages of minutes that uh you you don't have to go like who is at this meeting again and you know um so on and so forth so um so naan can I ask the minutes question since we got five minutes to go yeah absolutely so maybe Mato can just sort of prep us on which ones we're considering because it's get Oho confusing since there a whole bunch listed there so I'm assuming ex's executive session but maybe just for for the whole group which ones were being asked to approve well before you go in there Matel I just want to note that I put these on the agenda like that and I had gone through and and at least from the uh my town government website and you know because it will show you all the meetings that have been posted that don't have minutes attached and the ones I have listed in here with the ex in there indicates that the the board went into executive session however there is a portion of the meeting that's an open session you know in addition to convening an open session to go into executive session um so I that's uh that's what that is and of course there's at least one there with the select board um yeah we do have a big backlog of minutes um you know we're going to we're going to get through this and then we'll be current and it'll be smooth sailing for as long as Mato is with us um no Nathan I just I have a followup question to that since we got a minute but I don't know if you know maybe Matteo can check but my sense is if the if the board convenes and then automatically and then immediately goes into executive session that's all we're doing I don't think there's separate minutes for like the opening it up it's just sort of executive session minutes because there's no business that's done except to open the meeting and go into executive session we should question mat or was someone saying something yeah I don't I mean it certainly makes things a lot easier if that's the case um we don't have to have separate separate sort of two sentence uh called the order when into executive session um I can find out if that if that's the case or not yeah it'd be easy to review anyway um but yeah I mean you fair question I don't know oh let's see so we're looking at the hearing and then hopefully uh some deliberation now we got a lot of dead air time here I guess uh probably should have tried to and something else but it's all right we got that are we ready to talk about the 129 minutes well at this point it's 7:14 and fair enough fair enough so it's all right you know it is what it is I'm just hoping that is uh we're GNA see someone show up here um Matel we had uh I mean yeah I mean we set this with Peter at the last meeting um m 7:15 I'm going to uh open the public hearing on the special permit application by Peter geese for 29 Highland Drive pursuing to section 8.62 a.2 of the town of shutesbury zoning bylaw deviations to the standard setbacks from property lines for a travel portion of a driveway at this time we have no member of the public or the who is nmtr that's going to be Peter geese okay so we do have the the petitioner before us okay I just got an apologize I was stuck in traffic no worries um it's we just opened the hearing and now we are uh we are ready to hear your formal presentation to the board uh for this application Peter okay well for the members that came out to see what the uh project involved essentially I am uh requesting the board Mak an approval I don't know if it's I think Jeff said it would be a special permit I thought it was more of a variance but essentially uh I'm looking to uh take care of this uh side Lot setback from my proposal for this utility Road and driveway and Bridge uh traveling from Highland Drive over the existing utility road that goes to the pole number two and uh from there there will be a Spur Road heading west down towards the Wetland within 30 ft of the delineated Wetland and then it will also uh turn right or heading uh East to the bridge that will cross over and span the delineated Wetland and join the existing driveway uh servicing m78 so given the fact fact that the uh the poles straddle uh the property lines the uh the utility lines kind of go over the property line from the uh you can see on the map uh closest to wendle road you can see the pole is just about on the property line of m78 and then heading east it actually goes on to m79 and then when it continues it goes back onto 78 and U in the green delineated uh proposal lines there that's the driveway we're looking to get approval on and it's the the problem is the bylaw that requires um a minimum of 15 foot setback from an existing property line so given the fact that these utility lines are there to service those two exist existing two family homes um I believe it's in both uh parties benefit moving forward I'm not just thinking about myself but I'm thinking in the future going down the road I just wanted to make sure that uh you know when I'm no longer around or I sell the properties that there was never a question as to that side Lot setback that we have something recorded uh approved and recorded to ensure that in the future nobody neither owner would complain about that particular bylaw issue and so I'm I'm here today uh asking for your uh approval on this project it's one of the first steps in the process and there's an order and the order was you know the delineation talked to the Conservation Commission they came out twice they said it looks good submit your notice of intent uh but I felt like and my attorney also felt like the order of business was to address this sidelot setback for the road so that's uh what I'm trying to do here anything do you want comments or questions or do you want to yes has anyone else joined the uh call um is there any member of the public on the call that wishes to ask questions or uh submit protest or any other evidence pertaining to this application okay does the board wish to uh ask any questions of the applicant I don't have a question but I do have an opinion if you're open to that um I'm set if you got a question Michael go right ahead no I don't have a question I actually wanted to say I mean Tom and I went out on Friday and Peter showed us you know walked us around it it seemed very straightforward and a thoughtful approach so I I I support it it seems like it it just makes sense um I can't imagine anything else that would be done and looking at the specifics you know as he pointed out um there you can't build in the places off a w road going back because of the wetlands and the houses are set back so um it really is the advantage of those houses back there are not not in a position in any way to anybody as far as I could tell so it seems like it's it works well all right would anyone else like to ask any questions of the uh applicant has anything okay um Peter have you you done any evaluation of this uh request with respect to the review criteria that are spelled out in the zoning byw uh I'm not sure if uh I've got it all straight but uh Mato gave me this order of business for this particular uh part of the process are you talking about the entire project Nathan as far as the you know from start to finish or just this portion of the project just this portion of the project um I thought I covered everything I don't know if there's anything else that you needed me to do or submit I'm thinking that I've uh I fulfilled all the obligations unless there's something that I have missed in this process okay all right um no one else has any uh questions at this time is is everyone uh feel comfortable uh closing the hearing here okay the applicant you don't feel that there's any uh any further information that you feel uh you know would you'd like to provide to the board and I guess the only other thing getting back to uh the reasoning behind all of this uh I think I mentioned it uh on both tours with the board members that came out to look at the project uh the premise of this all revolves around trying to improve the reliability of the utility service I've had problems over the years with trees falling on the electric service and tearing it down and the premises that uh with by having a road as such it will enable me to get service trucks in there to actually address any tree trimming that needs to be taken care of currently the way it stands um you have to get people who are willing to climb trees um the the biggest issue comes around uh the winter time where it's most difficult when you have ice storms and the like and uh heavy snow where the branches have been falling on the power lines um the premise of doing this project will enable me to much better stay on top of that and using it as a regular driveway the premise also is to make sure that it's plowed on a regular basis and trafficked so whenever uh a situation comes up with a tree falling down particularly in the winter uh it's always going to be plowed and fully accessible by the utility company or any tree trucks so that's the that's the whole idea behind this to uh basically ensure electrical reliability also in view of the fact that the state wants everybody to go get away from fossil fuels and go with all heat pumps um the problem then becomes that it's the sole source of energy for heating the house if you get rid of the wood like they want everybody to if you get rid of the uh fuel oil or the propane uh being Reliant just on that one utility makes it imperative that uh we ensure serviceability of those power lines and by doing this project that will greatly assist any type of requirements down the road whenever we do have trees falling or hopefully prevent them get to them before they actually take out power lines which I've got a lot of trees right now threatening the power lines as it is thank you that's uh that's good to know you know I might feel like I'm I'm beating a dead horse Peter but the you know one I I recently you know got a copy of the uh land use planning handbook in my hands and I've been kind of going through it as a a policy uh perspective so I'm trying to be thorough and um part of it is that uh you know some of the we've kind of been over before maybe on site visits or on um you know when you came to the board PRI previously and you know first kind of introduce this to us but uh I think it's important that any of the information that may have already been shared is also included during this time of the hearing um I guess uh so you know Michael noted that on Friday uh he and Tom went down I would also note that uh Keith and myself were went down and uh view uh did a site visit as well um where we were able to see the area um and walk on the parcel um did we uh did we cover today is there any reason to suspect even though no one is here at the public hearing that any uh actually Tom you have a question yeah just a point of order I'm really sorry to bring it up now because I didn't notice it until now but was there a vote to open the public hearing there is and I don't know if it's I don't know that there needs to be okay I just wanted to make sure I was going over other item you we initiate we initiated the public hearing with public notice and uh things like that to a a date and time yeah I just meant for tonight like at 7:15 when we started I've witnessed it before I didn't know if it was required okay no no I mean you know thank you for uh for that no it's uh it's always good to check um all right so I was going to ask if uh you know even though there's you know does not seem to be any members of the public here to protest this uh Peter would you suppose that there's any reason to believe that any of the butters or um Persons of Interest in this case might for any reason feel injured by this uh by this project and if so you know why are why not why are why not um my belief would be no uh given the fact that the closest of butter to the project is going to be the one listed there who is Tyler Tyler Richards his property is also affected by the wetlands that parallel wendle Road and that particular Wetland makes a right-and turn uh before the cleared area where his home is located the two family across from the Athletic Club uh it's a nice chunk of land but given the Wetland bylaws I don't think he would ever be allowed to do much of anything because um with the with all the restrictions of cutting trees or disturbing soils in that area I don't think he would be AG grieved because he would not be allowed to ever do anything there as far as construction or putting add dis to his home or a barn or anything like that so and the premise that uh I'm maintaining a very substantial distance from the side Lot not even getting close to the 15 ft minimum requirement going by his property I don't see how he could possibly be AG grieved by this uh and uh being that I own you know naturally m79 m78 and M39 naturally I'm not going to be AG grieved uh I can't see down the road in the future somebody being AG grieved Al though you just never know when people buy a house I was thinking of like what's the worst case scenario why would one of the two homeowners on m78 and m79 not want to have electric power coming in or the fiber optics or phone lines or whatever else might come about but for right now those are the three different utilities often thought okay let's say let's say somebody covers their whole roof with uh solar panels puts in batteries and wants to completely disconnect themselves from the grid they might present an argument well who needs the poles who needs the wires so why is that road so close to my property uh I think that's a stretch but it's always a possibility and for that reason I figured why don't if we're going to try and do this project let's make sure that that doesn't become a fallback issue for that new owner who has no interest in being connected to the grid would want to say oh wait a minute hold on here this road is closer than 15 ft to the property line that based on shutesbury bylaws is not permitted so for the person that did want to stay connected to the grid uh with the other one saying we want nothing to do with it this kind of puts that issue to bed so they can't down the road turn around and say well I don't like this it's part of the bylaw and you either need to move your road or get rid of it so I'm thinking by you know trying to look forward on this let's try and let's try and put all the issues to bed as we're moving through this process and that's why I uh when when discussing all the possible hitches with my attorney this one came up and uh he said absolutely you got to get this one put to bed first even before you get your notice of intent in right so that's one of the first ERS of business to ensure that so that's kind of the whole thing Peter you're talking about um like one of the houses going off the grid but these uh when this property already is uh already has a a shared driveway in use is that true yeah oh yeah absolutely that is correct yeah that is definitely correct every you know the properties those two properties need have and need easements going over M39 so there is already an agreement on that yeah so for them to access their lot they forcibly have to come down Highland Drive I had considered it when I when I had done the when I did the other property I considered well let's let's put a road in let's put an new driveway that Services the two properties but at that point already the Coen act had gone through which is the Watershed protection act which made it very very difficult to uh to Traverse the wetlands so at that time it made all the sense in the world just go down Highland Drive and cut over to that property but now you know now things are changing again as far as all these utilities and and what the state wants uh so to me all of a sudden the reliability of that electric power grid is be going is becoming more and more imperative to ensure that that's moving forward I already put a heat pump system in on one of the properties the other one is all propane and I think that's the next step on that one and I know you said this earlier you said that the neighbor Tyler his house is uh there any structure on the property is like obviously a good distance away I don't know if we can see it on the plane if you're looking at the map and you can see uh that looks like it's a yellow colored property line that comes if you look at the northern property line of M m78 and you go west or towards wendle Road you'll see where it turns North at that corner yeah and as you go Northerly the house is I'm going to say probably about 50 fet in from that corner would be the southern side of that house so it's fairly far over there it doesn't show it on the map but um it's all the way over toward the northern side of the property and that was another one of those where prior to to selling that property I had opted to do a u a major change and as a matter of fact I do have some maps I can pull it up let me see if I can get that like I I think I pointed out to you in years earlier um when when I first divide the land I don't know if this if this is visible okay yeah okay this is the original parcel of land that I purchased okay and you can see here this stretch went all the way to rggs Road okay okay all right now one of the things that I did when I bought the property is I subdivided it and this particular map here which if you wanted book and page I can give you that it's book 59 page 90 on the registry of deeds and I can give you the other ones too if you want to write this down the first map that I just showed you is book 49 page 11 so if anybody wants to go you can go to the registry of deeds right now and do a uh a search on plans and put in book 49 page 11 that will show you the property as it appeared when I first purchased it okay okay then after that book 59 page 90 I divided the property and let's see if if I can see this here so if you look at this here what this is Briggs Road right where my pinky is okay and the the last lot here is m79 and M 78 now also you'll look at this right and you'll see that there are parallel lot lines from here from Wendell road going over to here the other lot the one where uh the neighbor is is right here okay that corner right there pointing out to you the is is more centered if you just drew a drew a straight line down here it's more centered in that little block of land yeah okay see the way that was I made another change I made another change to that property let's see which one this was I think I think that covers the question as as far as the the distance Peter um I I just I you know um but then the the other I was just going to confirm you know like you what I saw during the the site visit was that you know the uh the area where the power lines go through the woods there um you know you can see that there's like kind of like an existing um Wood Road that comes off Highland Drive and then the proposed area to turn into a driveway is you know the area directly under the uh power lines and obviously that area is you know I mean there's some vegetation there but it's the you know the the trees have already been removed there from the time when they when the uh power lines went in for the most part right so it's I mean you know it's seems to represent you know less um removal of trees than Alternatives right I would say so yeah I mean if you if you if you if you pick an entirely different location then you're just cutting down way more trees and the premise is to have the road underneath the power lines that's the basic idea so you know to go further over um it doesn't make sense I mean if you went to the other side of the power line then uh you're just clearing out a much larger SWAT of trees that's I'm not sure exactly where what you're envisioning with this well no no I'm just simply stating that I noticed that when I went on the site visit that the you know that area is already um trees have already been removed and that you know any alternative plan would uh result in removal of uh more trees than this one would yeah I I totally agree so you know I mean Peter understand you know I'm just I'm just trying to you know get information at this point I feel very satisfied I think everyone else on the board does so um I think I think we can wrap this up now unless anyone else has thought something else they want to ask okay do I hear a motion to close the uh hearing for the uh special permit Forest no moved close I moved to close the hearing second second all right discussion all right I'll call the role um Raymond hi poft Hi bonor I prestler hi take care hi and I'm I the motion passes unanimously all right well um Peter thank you very much for uh your time tonight um you next I think the board will probably deliberate about this and you're welcome to uh to stay though I would say that you know any further information we receive is considered exp parte communication and that uh should not be considered in the uh ourc but I think we have all the information we need right so um would anyone like to uh discuss this anyone have any uh now that we've gone through the hearing and received all the information is there uh when anyone like to start off the discussion I think we should okay wait pleas please um no I was going to move to approve the special permit application and then have discussion after the motion but if you want to discuss first before then that sounds fine yeah that's uh that be fine okay I'll move to approve the special permit application for 28-30 Highland Drive um with Peter geese I'll second okay let uh any discussion right now in so in approval of the special permit we need to you kind of Identify some you know elements that uh you provide for the use and how the the criteria is met you know what justifies allowing it and so on and so forth and eventually uh you know incorporate all this into what will be written decision um I don't know if we need to do that all now we can kind of approve the uh the permit and then you know go on to you know kind of keep the decision as a a subsequent step you know in terms of fleshing out all the uh substance of the decision yeah would be help me helpful to just share the the list of the new special permit cred so at least people see it whether we discuss it or not yeah sure um you have that handy I I did uh I do okay I do have it handy give me half a second here um and we don't have to uh you know do do all this tonight you I would like to at least kind of get started on it I know we do have some other stuff we need to talk about my cursor is being weird um did you guys see that okay so this is just the highlighted version that we brought to town meeting so that's why the red is there but there's the general findings which these top four so the proposed use is in harmony with the general purpose and intent to the zoning bylaw and in particular rural sighting principles the does not significantly increase the risk of Public Health welfare safety in the residents of the town the benefits of the proposed use that way its adverse effects with respect to the town which may include but is not limited to financial legal and environmental concerns and their proposed use is consistent with the jbay master plan which we've recently discovered doesn't exist uh and in particular with the goals established by the natural resources and open space um sections I guess and then there's specific findings which are much longer which I will not read um but sort of breaks it down more specifically so I don't know if people have any questions about that but those are the top four I think of the I can scroll the specific ones if you guys want me to scroll down e so what we need to do is we need to establish findings that justify approval of the special permit um now you know in the past we we you know we've used a template for special permit decisions and you know I don't I don't I don't know that we're uh you know prepared to you completely draft that at this time tonight uh you know now that the hearing is closed we have a 90-day period to reach final action which includes uh you know finalizing a written decision that can be um submitted to filed with a town clerk indicating the board's approval and findings and any and conditions if any uh for this uh permit Michael yeah I was just going to suggest what we did with uh the white min special permit which I think made sense was that we you know assuming we voted to in that case we voted to approve it and then we voted to um I think have was it was either you or Jeff but one of you the first one was Jeff the second one was me yeah so he drafted it um and then the subsequent meeting he brought you know he chaired the draft we discussed it we made edits to that draft and then you know we basically um voted to approve you know the final draft which represented the special permit so I think for the sequence for tonight is if we we would vote to approve or not approve um if we vote to approve then I think it's a matter of designating someone to do the draft um share it out before the next meeting and then we can review it at the next meeting and see if we can finalize it then or if it needs more revision okay all let's do that then I'll uh any any discussion then before any further discussion before I call the rooll on that okay all right I'll call the role Raymond hi poft hi boner hi prestler hi take care hi and I'm an i okay so you know the board is uh seeking to approve the the permit Peter but you know now we need to come up with our the details of our decision and uh you know provide you know file it with the town clerk upon filing with the town clerk there'll be a period of uh roughly 20 days that will uh where people will uh where where appeals can be be made once that period closes then uh the decision will be final at that time or you know once if there are any appeals you know once they run their course you know one way or another um at that time it would be final and then after that it would be um recorded with the in the registry of deeds um Michael yeah I I guess I have a question for you Nathan but also just for the group in terms of designating someone to write the draft um I mean you did Whitman so if you wanted to do it you could but I'm also wondering if you know if Keith was interested since you know you did the Wheelock site visit and you you were a professional regulator you did such a good job so but as an associate member it's also up to the board whether we'd want that to be but I wanted to just throw that out for consideration since you know I'm not sure lots of people want to write this thing up but it should get written up well um so and you're welcome Keith yeah I was gonna say thanks for that uh God knows what would have happen if I wasn't here at the meeting um yeah I'm happy to do that if you've guys if there's some um if you can give me some examples to see kind of what the the format is and the template I'm happy to if you guys you guys want me to be the subcribe well is there is there anyone else that's a you know a full member of the board that would like to take a stab at that so that would be you know Steve Deacon Ashley Robert any any any of you if I had more time I'd love to but I just it's just not a good idea for me right now I'm sure Keith would do a much better job okay um about you Nathan do you want to do it no no um I uh I'm happy to uh to to assist though um so yeah uh Keith I have uh you know we we have the you know you can kind of reference what we did with the white men permit as a recent example but more importantly kind of like the that has the template and then you know I uh I give you I have some other materials that are more just um in terms of the requirements for what needs to be included in a special permit decision and you know how it needs to be framed you know and part of the reason I was trying to ask so many questions during the hearing right is you know as far as special permits go I obviously this you know this is a very straightforward case here um in my opinion you know it is Peter elaborated we don't really expect anyone is going to come forward and say they're harmed by this and and challenge it uh for what reason anyone would do that you know we can't uh surmise so all the same uh you know just generally speaking as far as special permits go it's it's more difficult to uphold the issuance of a permit than it is to for the denial of one right the issuance of a permit you know the allowing of the use uh is like kind of like a higher burden of of proof If you will and it needs to be a well-framed decision in order to you know maintain any scrutiny um versus a denial which is more of like a well you know we don't see that this uh you know fits in the neighborhood or whatever and but um again this is obviously a simpler case so we don't really anticipate much and while we're on the topic I would like to see you know does anyone have any suggestions for conditions that would be placed on this if any you we should we should we need to talk about some of this stuff you know as a board we can't I don't think we should just you know kind of give this to Keith and say you know make everything up I have a question I'm wondering about stone walls just looking at section 83 and all the different uh rural sighting principles Mr geese are there stone walls that are uh affected by this development at all well I would say Ashley one that uh at this point the hearing is closed oh so this is the the anyone have any questions during the hearing however I think if we look at you know we we we have the plan for our consideration and that's not like a site that's not something that we would consider in the report that you're speaking of in the special permit what's that it's not that's not something that would be one of the conditions that we would look at when Keith is writing well that I mean the Ral sighting principles and the bylaw I think uh are are probably you know something that needs to be considered by board when when we deliberate a decision to approve a special permit absolutely okay and you know looking at the uh you know we can look at the plan and if I interject just one second Nate there stone walls there in that that area where we're working there are no existing stone walls yeah I was going to say four of us walked it and I I don't recall seeing anything any remnants some stone walls right and uh the the plan does not show any stone walls that on the uh project site well that's a good you know that's a good uh consideration um so let's see okay so I'm just looking at the the Whitman decision and we only had one condition at least on the second and final special permit and that all that said was violation of any condition imposed by the zba shall constitute a violation of this special permit but that's what specific to that one because we we approved it Go and with the condition that it went back to the zba um but I don't think that's relevant in this scenario well yeah that that was an amendment to the we issued the permit and you know we kind of said you know you have to do this and as uh one of the things that we said was that you know the driveway um needs to leave the uh the tree intact and the stone wall intact on a driveway and there was uh it would have been like nine or n and a half feet at uh in order to do that and so then whitean had to go to the zba and uh request a variance um for that they issued a variance but they issued it for 10 ft because they said you know you need at least 10t to have an emergency vehicle be able to access that and because and we said you know our bylaw says that any you know kind of change to the conditions would you know require going through the whole process again so whitean came back with another application to amend the one condition on the permit and we had a hearing and we said yes you can do it and those were the conditions we implied to allow that uh modification right so the initial decision has all the other uh conditions that are in there like the arbes and everything so if you're looking at that decision for a guide you might want to look at the other one yeah no I'm looking at the other one right now I'm going to read from from this guide here on the uh the section has on on decisions um Deacon oh I was just wondering if we should I mean given that the Conservation Commission is so involved should should in the conditions we say something about their involvement yes yes we should that's uh in fact that that is uh probably the the the one of the the main things that we're going to need to consider when uh thinking of condition right so um something along the lines of no uh you know so I guess I I mean something like the this decision says nothing about about conservation and that's those rules will have to be a bid as well well if if you were to you know um construct a drive way uh you you need a uh some sort of permit from the building inspector like a you know a curb cut from Highland Drive or uh something like that that probably we should have probably asked that question um one point the the utility road is something that's been there since 1988 89 so the that first stretch between Highland Drive and that that middle utility pole that was already put in back pre 1990 right and so that being quote unquote a curbed cut so that's already it's already existing so it's not like I know on a public way you absolutely have to get an approval for a curb cut this is a private road but and it was never an issue nobody other than the fact that the utility company said we can't help you unless you give us a road to put in a pole we need to get a truck in there and so that's when we said okay we'll put a road in there I mean but uh we can we can put a a a condition that says that uh you know we we can we can see from the plan that there are you know Wetlands on the property in fact the proposed driveway goes over the Wetland right there's a proposed 50 foot by 12T Bridge um so for for that we can say that you know you can't you know begin this work until you have uh an approved notice of intent from the Conservation Commission oh well that's goes without saying and my mind until I get the no of intent we're not putting a shovel in the ground the only thing that we have to do prior to for the uh Bridge company they are requesting some core samples in the area of the abutment so before I can even get to the point of the notice of intent I have to get an approval from the Conservation Commission to allow us to do the core because they said you can't submit the notice of intent unless unless you have the full bridge design and so once again you know cart before the horse that's going to be one of the orders of business before we even f for the notice of intent so I'm going to have to go to conservation first and ask them can we get approval to do core samples where the abutments are going Nathan I think the only condition that jumps out at me is the whole compliance with the Conservation Commission um you know I mean there's in effect a curb cut because trucks have been able to get in and out even though it might not be an official one um it's a private Drive yeah and I'm just saying like I don't we didn't discuss during the hearing nor do I think we necessarily care what the surface of the driveway is um I'm I'm sort of an lack to think looking at looking at the Whitman thing as an example I mean that was such a tricky thing in terms of location and trees and walls and um all the other stuff is sort of no standard so you know feeder will have two years to complete it and you can always come back if he can't um and we not require I mean we don't need a vegetative barrier or anything like that um all the other protective aspects I think are more the concom um you know requirements that's just my personal two cents wouldn't get this other special permit for contrast one other thing also Michael uh my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong uh usually it's two years from when you get your final permit to start the project it this is not from today okay this has already been over a year how far I have gotten with this so you know when uh I mean I really have to laugh at all of this because I thought this would be a this would go a little bit quicker but I'm realizing no this is gonna this is going to drag out they're probably two years before we can even do anything so I mean that being said I just wanted to get the that clarified I think I think if you're going to put a restriction like that on there it should be from when I get the final approval then start the clock because I think that's the way so many hurdles along the way that you know like okay we have to do this before we can do that okay this is going to take another four or five months okay Peter the clock the clock starts the moment that we file our decision with the town clerk okay now um if if there are there are remedies provided in statute if um if you're delayed from beginning construction prior to that okay so I can come back to the to the board and say look we got hung up this is where we're at is that what you're saying yeah yeah like if all the bridge suppliers in the world just go out of business and um you have extreme trouble doing that I mean there was something similar that we did for uh the cell tower right down the road from here um where they were trying to do underground cables and it was during Co there supply chain difficulties and you know the board was like okay you know I'm pretty sure that was uh readily approved right right so yeah um there's nothing we can do about that that's uh that's that's St okay understood and you know of course you know I think uh I'm trying to be as thorough as possible because there are some situations where we you know deviate from statute then the the authority to issue the permit can be removed from our hands understood okay so I'm not trying to belabor anything or uh make it any harder than it has to be I assure you okay um yeah so I guess uh does does anyone else have anything that they are prepared to add at this point okay I think I think we'll leave it at that um you know Keith has it you know his marching orders and I'm going to uh provide you with the template and some other materials to assist Keith and uh you once that's uh drafted up you know you can send it to the board and I'll ask that board members can you know review it and any suggestions or thoughts you know give it directly to Keith and not the whole board because we don't want to be uh deliberating on it out of Open Session and then the next time the board meets uh we will you know finalize it and then take final action by filing it with the town clerk so that you know that can um move things forward now I mean you know it's not final at this point Peter right do become official until it's with the town clerk um you know the board has voted that we you know are going to approve the the permit and um you know that you know that that's up to you whether or not you want to you know proceed with your other uh Endeavors that will be required for this project or if you want to wait until the uh you know a decision is fed with the town clerk that would be a conversation you should have with uh Council if you have it or you know by you know doing your own due diligence on it okay okay yes okay and and once that 20 days has it's 20 days from today no no it's 20 days from when uh the decision of the written decision of the board is filed with the town okay all right and I I assume mat will notify me once that take yes yes when you know there are stipulations that you know the applicant and the own the the owner of the parcel and the applicant if it's different from the owner and um you know people at the hearing that request for it uh to be sent to them and so on you know there's different requirements for who gets notified of it yes okay all right well I want to thank everybody for putting time in on this and coming out taking a look at the project and I appreciate your uh so far approval on this U hopefully we can get things done absolutely all right thank you very much thank you everybody thanks you too okay let's see all right next we have uh some minutes um do we want to uh take a look at the minutes from 129 2024 Nathan you want me to uh screen share these as you talk about them well I'm not going to talk about them but I uh I wonder if anyone would make a motion to approve them uh will move to approve the minutes of December 9th 2024 okay second okay um you know looking at the at these minutes I know I I had only one uh minor uh thing I wanted to um put a little bit more on was uh on the second uh page on under serious Community special permanent inquiry submission um you know Raymond recuses himself I was going to uh ask that it be added that uh um Raymond also disclosed that he's a member on the board and a supporter of uh just you know just particularly to um that he disclos he uh a member of the board of directors for the serus organization just a good a little bit of uh because that's not only is uh Robert and a butter but he's also directly involved with the organization so that it's kind of like a worth noting I think I got a question from Mato if I can so M I'm just I know that I sent you edits did you resend them out and should I my edits if you Incorporated them like which which version are we looking at so I can know if I need to comment or not well that's why I was going to ask Nathan if you want me to screen share so you can see the one that I'm that I'm marking up right now that would be helpful y so you already had that in there I just added this oh you did okay and did you there was I no I think uh was Donna's name spelled correctly down on I think it's uh page four that's correct right I think so no there's no a MC is it yeah okay there we go I I made a bunch of suggestions that are Incorporated in here so um if you want Nathan I can just go through them but they're sort of they're not usually substance um okay well I mean that you know I uh I only just had the the one I made and and making sure Donna's name was right I didn't I don't think I had any others and if you know those the ones you had were not uh overly substantive does anyone else have anything I'm okay U um I think it is with an a for Donna I'm sorry but on the document she and Jeff made with the questions has a mcnickle and tombs right yeah yeah it is an a look at that I have to apologize to her it's the Scottish Irish distinction right I don't know yeah changing in my computer as we speak than your Tom you that's weird I might somehow on Google it says uh without the a I found it with an H in it on Google in the nickel part I found lots of spellings of her name but said if you go to her firm yeah no okay all right let's uh okay good yeah I'm looking at her email and she signs it with a night okay okay there we go I'm glad we beat that um all right yeah uh anything else okay um if not I'll call the rooll um boner hi uh D hi um who else we have Raymond hi wrestler hi hoft I I'm I so we'll approve these minutes mat will submit them and I'm thinking that uh rather than trying to go through all these minutes here tonight uh you know I just want to get a sense of uh the board how many people have had a chance to go through and review any minutes uh prior to December 9th briefly this evening okay um do people feel like it's uh okay to kind of uh take some time uh take another month and uh have more time to review the minutes that we have currently on the agenda and uh or you know the uh so the minutes I've listed on the agenda I think is kind of more of a should be close to a list of all the outstanding minutes we have um and then uh I guess I think Matel I would ask that maybe you could just send out a new email with uh you know versions that incorporate any you know changes that you've received from Members um you know just send out like a fresh copy for everyone to look at um and then we can uh go with this again and uh next month we'll do uh more than one uh Robert speaking yes I just want to say to review minutes so many months behind uh so many months in the past for me is uh is a pretty challenging issue I'm I'm guessing many of you have a much better memory of it than I do but I'd ask if we could uh to review the minutes of a meeting the month following yeah yeah I think I think so do do you mean move like are you saying that uh moving forward like we need to have minutes the month after the meeting takes place and not that' be great yeah yes yes well now now that we have a land use clerk that's a that's going to happen yeah I I mean I should explain if I can just interject there the reason Raymond Robert there are so many of these is because of that period where there was such there was some considerable turnover and um minutes weren't being taken or minutes are being misplaced or lost you you all shouldn't feel too bad though uh if you saw what the Conservation Commission minutes look like that I'm going through right now there's there actually different versions and drafts and it's just it's very exciting I'm learning a lot um but I I think Robert is right that going forward would be great to address the previous meetings minutes before the new meeting starts I just want to say I appreciate your diligence Pato thank you yeah absolutely um so just to clarify the ex ones or where this whole list I'm assuming we don't have approved and the one that have the ex can you just explain that again Nathan since you made that notation so the ones with the ex include a portion of the meeting in executive session um however they there's agenda items for those meetings that were held in Open Session right so there's minutes that need to be approve reviewed and approved in Open Session okay okay that's helpful I wonder if it might be helpful to or just a thought like to group them together to do like five next month five five the next month so I I don't feel like I have to review 10 months worth of meetings right right the next one it's a lot I know understood understood I uh you know I I'm thinking probably the best thing is to kind of go in reverse first order but you know um we can so let's uh let's say that next month we'll uh we'll tackle the minutes from today and um give me a second here that makes it worse given Robert's Point what like if we do the next what shouldn't we start the oldest first well I mean you know for example like today we approved the meeting the minutes from last month and it's kind of like you know we remember it um the uh but you know for example the meeting the minutes from October you know we'll probably remember it the the minutes from you know uh you know from January and February that's that's already far back enough where you know it doesn't really matter much if we look at that uh in February or or March or April it's it's so far back that you know it's just you know um yeah I don't know if another month makes difference but I think you know the more recent ones are still kind of in our in our memory okay that's my thinking on it I mean you know I'm not I don't I don't really care either way um does anyone else think we should go from oldest you know get the do the oldest ones first okay yeah all right we do the old one first except for the we will we are going to stick to doing the immediately prior month right so that the you know um so next month we'll do January and then we'll go um and then we'll do January 2024 February 2024 and uh March 2024 and April 2024 right so January through April 2024 um so I'm going to ask Matteo to just if uh well actually okay that's another thing is I'm not sure those meetings are uh are due but they I'm not sure that Mato has drafts for them yet so I'll tell you what we'll take it offline we'll figure it out um you know we we'll go with uh we'll look at the drafts that mat has provided you know we'll get out whatever current drafts there are uh you know we'll put it out there so we can say all right these are the ones we're going to review and um that way you can have it and you know not have this big ginormous list and not know which one we're doing and um it'll give some clarity yeah okay so which ones are we looking at for we're going to you're gonna send an email yeah we're gonna send an email okay all right I'll check it out yeah no you know I mean we're in a bit of a mess with this but you know we are moving in the right direction believe it or not right now it seems a little bit sluggish but we'll get there you know we've got a bunch of drafts out there which is like so much better than we were just two months ago okay I I will also add if if there are challenges remembering what was discussed in the past the YouTube videos are all available so if you uh can do it you could sit down and watch the meeting again or certain part of the meeting um you can also set the YouTube videos on double speed which makes U Michael's voice really fantastic I'll send it to my kids I'm gonna say personally you know I think you know I'll be kind of going over what Mato does and unless I read something and say you know I feel like there needs to be more to that or that doesn't seem did I say that or you know something like that um did did Ashley say that right you know I'm not going to go through the video you know I'm I'm I'm only gonna go back to the video If there if there's something I have a question on I feel like I need to know that's that's personally my my stance on it you know I mean each each to their own on this let's move on we have a zoning B discussion pertaining to accessory dwelling units in particular same agenda item that's been on there last uh two months months and uh it includes some drafts that were sent out by Michael in the last uh week or so so I'll ask Michael to bring uh the um share the draft for the for the Adu Amendment and I'm going to just profess the discussion with I think kind of the direction that um you know a I think a good direction for us to go is more or less to think of this amendment or what will be an amendment as what is needed to bring the sudsbury bylaw into compliance with state law the statute and you know there may be some other things that we want to do right we're talking about a lot of different things here so there may be other amendments that are going to be you know forth with that may or may not make it into this year's town meeting but um you know I you know we can we can entertain um arguments to the contrary but uh kind of doing you know what is needed to bring us into compliance with um with the statute uh could be the focus of you know one amendment to say so we can say all right you know this this needs to be done so that we're in compliance with state law and there may be other considerations that arise out of this that we really want to address and you we can decide whether or not that's a separate Amendment or goes in uh but for now the you know the the kind of direction we went was to have this be more or less uh bring it bringing us up to a par and then um some some additional questions we might consider so Michael okay so um everything that Nathan just said so I think I'll preface it you all have this but I'll just walk us through so I had a conversation with Donna I don't know three weeks ago four weeks ago and had a list of questions and the takeaway I think was you know originally when we spoke last month or the month prior the idea was to sort of like take advantage of opening up the byla look at adus to do some additional things that could could look at affordable housing Donna's very clear message was this is new there's lots of um questions about it and the way I started thinking about her recommendation is that you don't want to let the genie out of the bottle because then you can't stick it back in So to be a little bit more intentional and um do it slow because you know the legislature wrote stuff and now the Administration has got draft regulations we don't even have final regulations yet I think they're coming out very shortly but um so the idea that Donna had was do we need to comply do a little extra if you want to but don't go wild um because if something changes it's it's a little hard to reverse course so just to walk through these questions so we had talked at the previous meeting do we want to have more than one Adu and we're allowed to um it according to the draft regs and this statute it would be regulated by a special permit this is a place where D is to wait until the law gets more settled um currently our Adu says it has to be on 45 Square th000 fa square feet um we could that would basically allow for non-conforming locks if we wanted to keep that um but a lot of this is essentially trying to tie it to what's required for single dwelling units and so if you bu into single dwelling unit now you need 990,000 so she doesn't have a strong opinion um it's really sort to us if we want to allow non-conforming a lots to have adus on them um the question was do we allow adus on Parcels out of multif family dwelling units um I didn't get into a conversation about that but again she was sort to saying let things settle out a little bit um we can always revisit that next year if we wanted to um terms of the setbacks um it has to be the same or more flexible than a single family dwelling unit so the whole idea with the legislation is that you can't make this more restricted than you would for a single family dwelling unit so presumably we'd have the same ones if we wanted to um the idea of originally I put something in about placement and orientation there's some discussion uh some stuff in our current about placement of single family dwell units in terms of consistent with the character of the neighborhood and that specifically is not allowed so you can't put anything in there um there's a question that Jeff had talked about and we I put in a previous version about time limits on a rental to um maybe avoid adus becoming like airbnbs and Donna said it's not clear in the current regulations if you can put time limits on a rental so her suggestion was get it past if it's unclear you don't want the AG kicking it back um we've definitely had enough of that so um this might be something that if things get settled we can revisit next year is I think the message from her and again with the rentals if there was documentation required but that would be mooded if we're waiting um candidate do you have be prohibited from having a home occupation so doing business I didn't discuss it with Donna um I think the takeaway is it needs to be consistent with singly family homes so right now in a singly single family dwelling unit you can have a home occupation you can do stuff in your home um so I think rather than call that out we just go to leave it um I can't imagine that 900 square foot um place people are going to have anything extensive in terms of Home occupation and then the last question which is sort of a discussion that I know Nathan and I wanted to lift up for our our group was do we allow mobile homes to be adus and Donna was very strong in her opinion about this I think one thing that she talked about was that mobile homes which are you know cited in our zoning bylaw um are now the terminology is uh manufactured home not mobile homes and my understanding although I haven't done really deep research in this is mobile homes or I mean manufactured homes include like what you would traditionally think is a mobile home and then also I would assume modular homes you know so a modular home which is built in a factory is going to be built to a different standard it has a different sort of characteristic than than a mobile home um so Donna basically said for now um wait and see because the idea would be it's it's sort of loaded you know because you could have people coming in and putting in adus and if they were mobile homes is that what we want and what's residents going to respond so I think we can have a conversation now but again I think this is this is probably the most complicated thing that we would want to wait for so that's all the da questions and responses before I sort of move up to what I shared with you all do you guys have questions okay let scroll up um so some of this is just repeat um so we're going to change the use table to allow accessory dwell units by right um and because SLE family homes can be um in all the districts it would have it there and there's a footnote in table one I'm forgetting exactly what it says at this point but it it's contradictory so to remove that um basically accessory dwelling units are in 44-2 um and to remind you all the blue is the stuff that is open for discussion the red is state law at this point um so the purpose was just be to help the town meet its housing needs and I suggested while maintaining consistent with the existing zoning um just because that's the value that we'd want to maintain um I change it so we would only have one Adu um or a lot unless we have a different discussion I suggested the 90,000 which is consistent with what a single family would have um and then Jeff this is referencing um non-conforming Lots that's already in our bylaw so it's just referencing what currently exists um setbacks I just made a reference to the dimensional table that already exists so that would be consistent with what a single family home has um there would be no additional curb Cuts or driveways Beyond what's allowed for one F single family dwelling um and let's see this is all the red is required so you have to have an additional minimum of one street off parking space number five is the square footage and gives compliance in terms of what it has to look like um I changed the date um I think I I'll change the date to the April depending on when town meeting is whether it's the end of April or May 10th it's one of those two I'll change that um and then one of the questions that Jeff Lacy actually had suggested for Conway and suggested for us was that currently an accessory dwelling unit could be located no more than 75 feet from the primary dwelling Jeff had suggested 100 feet um definitely we can discuss that more I don't think we've discussed it since um this is about I think we should just confirm this amongst ourselves but four common driveways um what currently exists in the language is no accessory apartment shall be approved if will result in more than six dwellings on a common driveway so an ad Adu would count count as a dwelling um and if you add them all up so it says uh so I'm just suggesting we strike this because it's already in the other section um and just leave it B so we don't have to call it out um and Michael can you what we go over that what we looking at here this is a yeah this is so in our common driveway regulations you can only so this section 8.6 d2b about common driveways right it currently says No Ex it it talks about that you can't have more than six dwellings on a common driveway and there's a little calculation about it in our current Adu language it says this crossed out part it says no accessory so I'm basically saying let's just not call that out you know it's it's explained elsewhere we don't have to step in anything um if if it comes to that we can we can have a conversation about it but um I don't think we need to stick our finger in The Hornet's Nest if that's the correct expression um and then Nathan and I did discovered we actually have a shsb house number by law which requires that every dwelling has a house number and so I was recommending that every Adu also has a house number so that if there's an emergency situation the respond there's no where they're going so it's just clearly marked you don't have to knock on the wrong door and then go to the right door um this red is the official um new definition from statute so that's the totality of it so it's it's much more streamlined um where it's less ambitious it sort of stays away from the things Donna says we don't really know yet um so and I guess do you guys have questions or comments Robert you're muted but I see you got a question um so an Adu can share the septic system of the main unit I think it's so the way it's written because I I saw your email earlier um it has to be approved by the Board of Health so if you had I this is my assumption we should check it but I didn't have time between reading your email and doing this but if you had a primary dwelling that had enough water and a big enough septic that it was zoned for the capacity of an Adu then I think you could share it but you know so if you had a two-bedroom house right there the primary dwelling unit and the septic was for you know four people and then you had a dwelling you Adu that could have another two people if your septic didn't support enough for six you couldn't share it um you'd have to have a big enough septic and enough water um but I think that's on the board of health and I'm not sure let me see that is a board of health issue decision yeah yeah really the Adu can share the electricity from the main house or does it have have a separate uh electricity I here so I'm just going to look at this for a sec um is a wrot so it's you guys can still see this right yeah so where it says the accessory apartment shall meet the stand the State Building Code and State Environmental code I think that would be where the electricity part would come in Robert so that it would have to meet code and code I'm sure they they talk about that kind of stuff um but we wouldn't in terms of the I think Steve's right with the with the septic in the water I feel like at some point there was something in here that I put in that it would conform with all the other permits and requirements of shutesbury you know regulations I don't know if I took that out by mistake or if I just imagined it but um I don't besides this thing about being consistent with the state building code I don't think we get into um if it can share it or not but I think it's got to be adequate whatever adequate is defined as yeah and again Michael I would think that's a building inspector decision yeah an accessory dwelling unit does does a state law prohibit an accessory dwelling unit from being simply a bedroom yes it's it's uh yeah where's it it's it's this part right here I'll make it a little bigger but it says uh uh let's see it has to meet all the criteria of a of a dwelling unit right so it has its own electrical service its own kitchen its own bathroom and go down to number six Michael there there it is I knew it was there somewhere thank you so it's got to have a separate entrance a kitchen one bedroom bathroom with sink toilet and bathing facilities it's the state state law duplicated in the ordinance in the bylaw right so I mean you know Robert to your you know to kind of like address your question you know this is you know a use that's allowable by right and you know if um you know if somebody wants to rent out a bedroom in their house that's not the topic under discussion you know anyone you know you can you know there's nothing I don't there's nothing currently in the um in statute or in shsy uh Zone you know shsy zoning bylaw doesn't regulate um whether or not you can rent out a bedroom in your house um to someone but you couldn't you couldn't build like a cabin that's just the bedroom um that doesn't have the other stuff right that's yeah that's and and certainly and you know certainly not under the protections afforded accessory dwelling units got it thank you you can let your teenager sleep there that's about it right um Tom thanks um I wanted to mention about that number six that's on the screen now um it doesn't use the same words as if you scroll down further to what the state definition is of an accessory dwelling unit yeah like number six above has the word kitchen number six above has the word bedroom and I think the state thing that we're looking at now captures those items with like better General language like inclusive of sleeping cooking and sanitary facilities so I wanted to know if maybe number six needs to be tweaked in order to be less specific um you know why does it need a bedroom you can sleep in a studio um why does it need a kitchen as opposed to just a place to cook uh so I I wanted to know if maybe should look at number six above and consider um and even looking at what we're looking at right now where it says accessory apartment and then accessory dwelling unit maybe we have to like stop using the word apartment as well yeah but it was mostly with number six above that I noticed a lot of differences in small words that were saying the same thing um yeah just wanted to alert us all to that no I think it's a great point I mean I I think given that I I would change six and sort of swap in the language from the definition um well six is kind of a repeat of the defition down below so I guess that's what also just struck me as it's redundant yeah we could just do that because it is it's defined in the definition section so right thing and the definition section um doesn't include the entire definition um from that you sent us like it's kind of split up in our document here into a few different parts in terms of the size and the short-term rental aspects but like the state definition has a very long definition that goes I think through one two three and four and the definition we're looking at number five right now goes to one in or actually not that but um the definition down below do you know what I'm referring to in the state I do yeah I think it's only five and the definition I basically split out this the SI and all this stuff in five because as a reader it seemed like you know you would you would say hey what does it need it needs this stuff and then what are the specs or this stuff so if if every if people want to we can just take five out and throw it in the definition um but it didn't sort of it doesn't fit the way our bylaw usually is um where we get that level of specific in the definition it seemed like if it was in there it would be okay but if people preferred to have both of them in the definition section that you know I don't think it would there's nothing bad about doing that I was I was basically split it up for readability yeah I get that it just struck me as odd for like having the definition of a term not be completely there where it's alerted to a reader like this will be his definition and it might be a it might mean like changing our bylaw a little bit and it might mean a redundancy here or there referring twice maybe to 900 sare F feet in the document so you're suggesting keeping this and then adding it on also in the definition if you scroll down please to the um part that we mean on the beginning of the next page that there um is about a third of the entire state definition and so that I was just craving somewhere that we had an exact repeat of the state definition of what an accessory dwelling unit is but we don't we only have like an excerpt of it what we're looking at now well part of the state definition notes that you know subject to reasonable regulation of municipality which is what this is um so I think you know we don't need to repeat that in our bylaw but um I mean your other point about you know the some of the like a studio versus a kitchen right is a uh important distinction right we we don't want to require a kitchen be in an Adu because that's not what the S says it says uh what cooking facilities right yeah right so um that's that's that's the kind of thing we need to clean up which I think you know and um and yeah I think yeah the regulations seem to you the regulations go into like what is defined as gross floor area um things like that this is this stuff is defined by Statute uh so a quick question are we using accessory dwelling unit or accessory U because I see in red accessory apartment just above yeah I think we got a to Tom's point we should just make it dwelling unit accessory dwelling unit that's that's what we'll go with yeah I mean the title of the section is aart is uh accessory Apartments too not anymore thank you Deacon such power we have so the 900 number is going to here I'm sorry Deacon Robert here's where it says right at the beginning all housing developments this is already exists in here but it says all housing developments comply with applicable requirements of the Board of Health I'm sorry Deacon what were you saying um so the 900 number replaces our 800 number correct okay in that state yes now so what do we think about this you know like the uh so the 900 square I mean there's 900 square feet um and then there's this this gross floor area and you know that is uh because I understand that's spelled out in the regulations document right Michael yeah this this right here number is is what this the state law is that's what the that's what the regulations are but no this this is from the law not even the regulations oh really okay yeah I mean this duplication like they they cite this in the regulations but this actually this this part is as Tom said this is part of the definition that the law says an Adu is okay can you do you have any like can you show us that the regulations no the law the law yes I can um give me a second here um the right one sorry it's all right we're going to uh this is it okay yeah it's here I'll share it this this is the definition that Tom was referencing so it's got to have a separate entrance with the things you're just talking about there's the size which is number two and then there's additional restrictions um or not restrictions so we can put in short-term rentals but Don was lary so that's the first part and then this is some of the other specific things so um some of this is that you are in a municipality that's within half a mile of computer commuter rail or subway station or a ferry or bus station and it's it's more mandatory and that's a totality of it so it's just these two sections and then the regulations are much longer because this opened up questions so what I'm getting at is that some of that more specific language that's in the regulations um perhaps we need not put it in our bylaw because you know we're that to change then you know now we're you know whatever we can reference the regulations um and yeah keep it simpler and then if it changes we don't have to go back to it I think anyone else has any different thoughts than that um well may maybe then it goes if we put it in definitions because as a courtesy to somebody who's reading this bylaw who's interested in an AC you um it would be helpful what to put to put what what gross floor area is in our uh the definitions in our bylaw yeah in other words if if as you say if State changes this requirement then we would have to change our bylaw if it's in the bylaw that's your point if it's in definitions we don't have to worry about we just change the definition that's still a bylaw change what's that that's still bylaw change oh I mean you know it's so you're saying that you know uh spelling out exactly what gross floor area is should be in the only as a c as a courtesy to somebody who is investigating an accessory unit otherwise I have to go searching for it in in the state statute and it's just a as I said just a courtesy yeah yeah well you know it's interesting because in the Solar one up until well most recent version that got rejected when Jeff designed the original 2016 the acreage size of one and a half to 15 Acres Max was in definitions so if you read like the four pages of the solar bylaw it never said anything and like we all knew that it was a 15 acre um cap on size but I for even for me I'd like read it on like where is that I know it's here somewhere and then I'd have to remember it was in the definitions um so like that was part of my thinking that I think you know if we do them both the other thing I'm thinking based on Nathan what you said is there's some language we can put in here that basically says this is the deal unless you know it changes in you know whatever the statute is that works that works we and we can like put the attach put the CMR on our web page next to the byw too yeah you well it's so it's it's this thing right here so this would right see you know whatever so this that would that would rule if anything ever changed right um so but you know I mean and then you know this may be a good question for Don you know when we do a legal review later um you know we're I think I think it's time to wrap up here I don't know if anyone wants to keep going more but I guess I just have one uh so I think for next steps I'll redo this based on this conversation we'll and then I share it out again um you want me to yeah I'll stop there Nathan what do you want to do next well one thing I think so what we're gonna need to do is is um get the translate this into a warrant article because you know the challenge is going to be um it is it's written that way okay yeah um so it's just going to be like so it's like uh there's a few things um because there's a few different sections right we have you know 4.4 4.4.2 um yeah here I'll show you I just I'll just share it again real quickly oh yeah I see that at the top um yeah that's what we've done before okay um no I mean I think you know just it's it's close but there's some uh you know like so you know we changed the title of accessory uh yeah there's a lot of things so you know kind of be like you know to you know so to you know section 44-2 you know is going to you know be accessory Apartments is going to be renamed you know accessory dwelling units and will be completely replaced with the following text right you know section four about four housing options will you know um you know I don't if you're going to just put it the the entire tax or just you know the reference to you know the reference to accessory Apartments will be changed to a reference to accessory dwelling units and tiny houses or whatever but um and then uh yeah well so what it says you what I'm saying sort of but I think it's already there so like that language you know so we don't know what the Warren article is but it's basically to see if the town will vote to amend the the zoning bylaw by amending and each of the sections so the section 3.1 D1 is the use table 4.4 D2 is accessory apartments and section 13.2 is definition so those are the three sections that are getting tweaked um I actually have to put in 4.4 for housing um I got to add that but and then just we'll do what we usually do which is identify what the new languages but the text Will the text will show up as in the amended form so people will be reading it um and we'll have you know we can have the color once we once we're set I'll just pick out the things that are not we're not doing and just have it you know I think it's worthwhile differentiating requirements by the state and things that we're doing but basically people will take away what the change language is so um I think that's pretty straight forward yeah um okay did you want me to just say anything about tiny houses you want to wait on that right yeah we we we do have the tiny so there's a tiny house thing there um yeah I mean essentially uh you kind of what I was saying to Michael offline was that you know the State Building Code uh you know the most recent ver revision of it adopts um it's now appendix AQ I believe in the state pend yeah I'm not I for I forget it's it's not exactly what it's not Q it's something tweaked it's proba I think it's AQ okay you could be right well and and you know I mean you go and you look go the State website look up building code and you get this document and you know to to make the State Building Code they're referencing several different uh documents that are created by the international standards organization or whatever it is and they go Section by section and says we're going to adopt as is we're going to adopt it and add a section we're going to amend it you know so the document is completely unreadable it's like a building code and I think it you know somebody must go and put it together and like you know then you get a final document of what it looks like but uh that's not what's posted on the as you know the CMR on the on the website so um but yeah they say they adopt uh appendex AQ and they add a a section for egress so it's in there right so so if you know the building inspector receives uh any plans that you know meet that criteria I don't see that there's any reason why they wouldn't approve them and Michael was suggesting that there may be some benefit for adding some distinction um you know so right now you know like I said we're trying to you know true up our bylaw to meet the state law you know the question of mobile homes and at least in this amendment we're leaving alone and um are we talking about the tiny home we're talking about whether an accessory dwelling unit whether a manufactured home or a a trailer or mobile home or something to that effect that would you know meet the definition of a mobile home under our current bylaw you know the question of whether or not that could be an accessory a protected use um as an accessory dwelling unit um uh you know I think uh because the regulations that the draft regulations that came out said that um if it was a modular home that it would be protected by the state by the statute but the statute does not include manufactured homes which means mobile homes right so as of now in this amendment we're not going to do anything to tweak our current position you know the current by position that the bylaw has on mobile homes which is to have allow only temporary use if you're reconstructing your home and so on and so forth now if we want to do another warant article another amendment proposal that touches on that that's something that we can do and you know I'm I'm you know I haven't got as far as I would have hoped you know it's been the holidays things have been really busy but I am still trying to work on um getting a forum going to kind of uh get some of these questions out to the public and I I I do suspect that I I may you know possibly this month or or or you know I'm not sure but you know we might end up having a hopefully a meeting where we can go maybe the town hall or at least an additional meeting where we can just designate some time to talk about this already in February we're going to have a a hearing on the uh Sirus special permit application right so we're going to need to set a time aside some additional time um if we want to go over further questions um it may be the case that some of this is going to have to is not going to make it into town meeting this year but you know we're going to kind of keep we're just going to keep things moving right and then you know there may be a special town meeting we can jump in but you know my intention is to just kind of um try to try to add some Focus to some of the periphery questions to consider and put that we may consider for subsequent amendments um so I see Robert um are we aiming I would like to aim to have a tiny home uh uh proposed bylaw on the agenda for the town meeting well I think you know well I jump in Nathan yes yeah so I sent out version of the tiny home which is that also trimmed down from the last time and I think because we have Clarity that it's already in the building the State Building Code the question that I posed to Nathan which I sort of think makes sense but it's really you know we should discuss it is do we want to Define tiny house um you know using the international definition so we're not inventing anything but calling it out so that you know a tiny house can be a primary dwelling unit um it could be accessory dwelling unit but because the state code is so inaccessible to a reader that we can just we can make it clear that if someone wants to come and say they want to build a tiny house we have a definition for what it is we make clear that it can be you know either a primary dwelling or an accessory dwelling it references the State Building Code it reinforces that it's got to be permanent not mobile uh it reinforces it has to have a parking space um so you know it doesn't talk about I I think I would agree with Nathan that like pushing aside mobile and manufactured home is the conversation for adus or tiny homes is that's really confusing but we can Define in our bylaws if we wanted to what a tiny house is and just have it be really straightforward and then if people want to do it um they'll have some kind of guidance but um I don't know if what people think he think something I mean I guess you know I would say you know thinking about a little bit more Michael that you know because you know appendix AQ has been incorporated into the State Building Code you know adding a definition of a tiny home or a tiny house into the bylaw um this is the this is the one that they have that came from the international folks so it's it's all the same right a tiny house right a detached structure containing a dwelling unit with a maximum of 400 square feet yeah Capital living space right um you know and we could potentially just add to it you know or I don't know I don't know if it's appropriate to make a note in definitions that um you know like you know nothing in the bylaw would you know prevent uh you know this a tiny house being pursued as a single family as a a residence as long as it complies with all Provisions in the bylaw yeah and the building code yeah I think a sort of says it that it can be a primary or an accessory dwelling does oh right yeah yeah it does yeah I mean the new information that's in a is that it may be a primary dwelling because the a the accessory dwelling is already covered right and I think it's up you know one can imagine a tiny house being either um yes and I think you know the the if someone wanted to build a the thing that I'm unclear about is like if you want to build a tiny house when you go for your building permit you have to tell them is it an Adu or a primary dwelling unit then it has to comply with whatever applicable things if there if there's differences um so just FYI I can't get my hand down but I don't have it raised anymore okay what about you Robert um yes I would like to speak okay um I'm just interested in comparing the uh the anet definition of tiny home with our own I like the way uh Michael has it a tiny home shall be on a foundation or otherwise made permanent in its location um Nantucket has an interesting uh comparison it says a a um shall be constructed on a movable trailer to be attached to a foundation so U theoretic Ally I guess uh someone could construct a tiny home on a movable trailer which is the way they usually constructed but uh as uh section D says shall be on a foundation or permanent in in its location so I I I gather probably that would that would be a possibility um what comes up for me is um would we want to add something like Nantucket did that a tiny house shall not be a recreational vehicle commonly known as an RV auto home shipping container motor vehicle semi-trailer camper or boat um and I'm thinking about that because I would uh not like to see the uh article defeated because uh we haven't said it I I I think it would help for clarity I guess my only question Robert which I don't know the answer to Is like if we say it we start back get backing into the mobile home conversation which we're not prepared for although listening to that conversation I'd love to see a boat in the middle of the forest J as a tiny home that would be sort of fun I mean aren't aren't there already like health department rules and stuff about living in a trailer that doesn't have septic or water yeah it wouldn't be able to comply so to receive a certificate of occupancy you need to have um you know septic and well you know water uh permits approved by the Board of Health so of occupancy yeah the thing I would just say is like an a the trigger is if we're saying it could be a primary dwelling or an accessory dwelling that means that that any tiny house has to comply with all the regulations for either one of those things so septic water electric setbacks the whole nine yards um so you you pick if you're going to be primary dwelling everything that we require for primary dwelling it has to be it's just smaller and if it's an accessory dwelling unit it would have to comply with everything we just previously discussed for adus just smaller go for Keith yeah I can't find my little button a Traer from mine um so it I guess I'm trying to figure out why we would need a separate section for tiny houses if they're covered under the building code to somebody wants to build a house no matter what size whether it's tiny or medium or giant if it meets the building code do we have to why would we call it out in our own bylaw I guess I I well my my thinking is it's sort of user friendliness because you know so like I remember when I was on school committee and I would write policies people would say well it's there we don't have to say it well 99% of the people who going to a school committee policy book never going to look at the state stuff they're going to look at the local one if that and given that the state building codes are really convoluted because like Natalie blade told me that it was incorporated and then I told Nathan and I was like Nathan I can't find it you know and like I figured if I can't find it like no one's going to you know like it's going to be a small percentage of people that could find this thing so it was mostly I found it but it took a minute yeah you know like I was talking I don't Nathan if you told me this or maybe Donna did that orange is thinking of doing this so like there it's you know it's becoming a thing that people were going to do so it seemed like if we call it out and we can say I think that one of the things for me that's key is to be able that first is a to say hey if you want to build a small unit you can be either a primary or you can be an Adu and then all of a sudden it kicks in everything else because otherwise I think people would say I want to build a tiny house what is it you know and we and then I'd hate for us to have to sort of get involved and say well if it's the only building on the property then it's you know by definition it's primary but if you got another thing and you're within a certain limitations all the stuff you're an Adu so it's sort of to get rid of that confusion on the front end is but your point is I mean it's there so it's not essential from a legal perspective right it's not essential so I mean I I can see the value of kind of acknowledging you know like tiny homes have been added to the State Building Code and we can you know uh note that in our bylaw and say that you know you can build a tiny home providing you you know comply with any provisions in this bylaw yeah whether it's going to be a primary or an Adu right or you I don't know if there's anything else you could put in there but I mean that's uh that's probably it right yeah those are the triggers it's like you know it's small you're one of these things and we got everything else written up about those things so you could so then back to to Robert's observation about and I I have seen you know people that do these themselves they build them on trailers or some kind of mobile well but I guess if that's covered in the building code that they have to be on a some kind of foundation then that's answered I guess well I don't know if that's in the building code per se oh it's not okay you know that's in our bylaw ah gotcha in our bylaw you know at D it says shall be on a foundation or made permanent in location in accordance with massachusett State Building Code uh that that part is z is correct okay um appendix Q is in the State Building Code I had a sense that uh it's up to the towns to adopt it uh and what shsb is doing is adopting the building code uh appendix IQ which U makes a an exception I would gather to what one has to do to get a building permit to build a single family home in shutesbury I don't think we adopt the building code the building code is like State mandated um I guess that there may be things that per are permitted under the building code that we can Pro uh prohibit in our bylaw um but I don't think we need to you know like there's no there's nothing that we would need to adopt um in the State Building code to allow in the town but I mean I do think there's some value in putting it in there um you know just to kind of make it accessible that no oh yeah you can build it here but I mean it's just uh you know and then potentially adding Clarity around um yeah so um so in the in the State Building Code the tiny home should be on a foundation or otherwise made permanent in its location right so that's uh otherwise made permanent I don't know how that could differ from being on a foundation I think that's the same I think it's the whole boat what was all the the weird things Robert what were the what was that list again it can't be a boat and other the list one second a detex the tiny house shall not be a recreational vehicle commonly known as an RV auto home shipping in container motor vehicle semitrailer camper or boat no okay so what if you put any of those that Robert just mentioned on a permanent foundation well no that I think if we add what Robert's saying then that they wouldn't be so no nood understood current if we don't put it in they probably if they comply with everything else you know like if they had the kitchen facilities and the bathroom facilities and septic and water yeah I don't see any downside to adding the the language that Robert's talking about oh right yeah so that would be thing and I like so I would ask I mean like does so you know Robert you said that if uh without that language you would be concerned it would be defeated um for concern of uh yeah having mobile homes and whatnot well I'm just anticipating a town town meeting where so you can just have a motiv you just have have an RV as a tiny home or or a nicely painted shipping container yeah yeah so I mean I think um you we should try and get some sense of where the community is on this um you know if if the because I think there's there's a little bit of a divide obviously there's there's plenty in the community that have concerns about mobile homes and trailer parks and everything like that and I think there are some in the community who are kind of like you know it's a little bit exclusionary to not allow uh somebody to buy a lot and set up a mobile home to live in because you know housing is so expensive and you know you can get a mobile home and yeah you got to dig a you know a septic system and uh put in a well which is a big cost but it's still a lot cheaper than building a house or bringing in a modular home well but Nathan the thing the N the thing that Robert said which is interesting is it doesn't mention mobile homes it's just RVs so you know the the big things that are actually you know drivable so if we stay away from mobile homes we're actually are probably okay okay and a tiny home is a lot tinier of a construction cost than building a house of course yes no I mean we have a lot to consider obviously we're we're now at 920 so we need to um you know wrap it up uh you know so you know updates thing uh I am still trying to you know work on some other things and I'll uh you know regarding like a you know community outreach and hopefully getting together with the public in some way um or uh you know ammer did a survey for community housing I'm trying to get my hands on a copy of that and maybe we can be like kind of the basis to send something out so uh more to come on that and also I do you know want to mention that there's been a few a few times where you know me have addressed the board with opinions on on various matters um you know we're talking about them now but I do want to caution everyone on the board to you know if you're uh you know looking at a draft for a bylaw Amendment or you know anything else uh you know if you're trying to uh provide an opinion on it that's in an email make sure you're just emailing the person that is working on that and not the entire board okay um you know we don't want to uh you know have open meeting law uh issues get in the way of any of the work we're trying to do okay so um all right that's all I have uh does anyone else um is there anything that we need to oh yes I had one important thing if you don't mind Nathan I don't so if you recall an hour ago Nathan was really being pretty um detailed about the special permit process and that was because I lent him the big fat rule book that Donna gave me she lent she gave me her hand me down and he wanted to look at it so but these things cost 400 bucks at least maybe 500 at this point so I was suggesting that the committee actually should have an official copy like you know it's nice that I have my hand-me down one but Nathan should have one or whoever the chair is or whatever so I was going to make a motion if you guys are okay with it to allow Nathan if he can find the money in our budget to buy one on behalf of the committee that would live with the committee um because we should we don't want to do these things wrong we need to know what the rule book is so are you guys okay with I make a motion to that regard okay I will move to um ask the chair of the planning board or enable the chair of the planning board to secure what's the name of this thing Nathan um Handbook of Massachusetts land use and planning law purchase one of those were used by the the planning board um you know contingent upon available funds a second second any discussion memorize it can can you get electronic version or is it just hard no it's a scam it's all for like you know land use lawyers and stuff how how how how long are they or how often are they updated um every year supplemental they come out with supplement supplemental materials I think every year yeah yeah like book every year no like the one I gave Nathan has got like four really teeny supplements so it's all about when you buy it it's a racket I mean it's a great resource but cost a lot of money maybe find one on eBay well you know so so the thing is it is it it reviews the you know what the statute is and then it uh kind of goes through various examples from case law to illustrate it a little bit so I mean it really is very informative and you know um yeah if anybody's having trouble sleeping they can borrow the book and I don't know I was up late last night reading it yeah but did you sleep well after I guess yeah not I mean you know the kids still woke me up early in the morning so you know that's uh I'll sleep well after tonight I'll tell you that well you might consider then using it as bedtime story for the kids okay um yeah do the roll Nathan all right P Croft hi prestler hi Rond hi boner hi take hi and I'm an I thank you Michael and now do I hear a motion to adjourn so move second okay so Robert Robert moved Michael second um no discussion all right I'll call the rooll I'm just going to say thanks everyone for hanging in there it's a long meeting you know we got a lot of work to do and I appreciate the conversation and uh the work uh that's been put in here um especially uh Michael preparing those drafts and uh Robert for you know having brought this and gotten us going on this uh with uh his Inc in tiny homes and um so thank you uh Pressler hi POF hi Raymond hi boner hi he Cara hi and I the meeting is adjourned thanks again have a good night everyone Michael Michael yeah what time are we doing Friday oh I we have to be there at 9: right I think we have to be there at 9 so we should probably leave like if you leave from kushman like 8 the latest maybe a little four you say kushman you mean the store yeah the parking lot in front of the store okay yeah and it is bacon Wilson right yeah so maybe you want to do 7:45 so we're not late it's it's going to be a push for me to do eight so let's stick with eight but I'll be on time okay that's well we'll get you a cup of coffee so I think and Keith I haven't Rita might have you have to go separately right because you're GNA bail okay correct so right now it's me and Tom and Steve and Rita might join us and the rest of you will just miss the good times best of luck all right yeah bye bye night good night