##VIDEO ID:3GqgbfW0Q0k## alrighty good evening and welcome to the highspeed internet subcommittee meeting for October 9th Wednesday 2024 time is 6:04 PM we're here in the land use room at Town Hall at 454 College Highway this meeting is being recorded if anyone's recording the meeting that's great just make it known to the chair or anyone else in the meeting for that matter and it's also being held in hybrid fashion and we do have members in person and on Zoom this evening so why don't we do a bit of a around the room roll call and then over on on uh Zoom as well so Doug moglin present Marlin Clin present Jim Johnson present Jim Crowley present Chris Boyd present and on Zoom Ian crell pres I knew that I knew that was gonna that's all right Bob Boyd present Tom kic present Ryan peas present okay and I do believe we certainly have an overwhelming quum this evening so we have no concern there so that's excellent people personalities come twice yes for this for the purpose of this meeting yes so first we'll take any public comment uh is there any any public comment either in the room which is uh completely empty or on Zoom I just go ahead and speak and we can address it now if not we'll continue with our agenda hearing none we shall continue okay um when we last met officially um our last meeting we did not we had a quorum but we didn't have enough members uh present I felt um and was the feeling of the people that were here that we should carry forth our agenda from the previous meeting to this week uh in order to have a a greater participation from the entire board um so we elected to carry the agenda to tonight and we duly post it and everything for this meeting so the key discussion point tonight is really about um finances and um you know the monetary aspect of this and we want to continue the discussion and it would be my hope that we would be making a recommendation to the planning board planning board to the board is too many years on that board to the select board um whether um you know if if we are to proceed and and how that would look or if we've decided that we're going to the the numbers don't work in our favor and we're going to we're going to take our ball and go home um or if we're going to decide to proceed then we've got to go back to the um we need to go back to the select board and ask them um in my opinion we need to go back and ask them to kind of reformulate this board again or to establish some sort of governance over this because um up till now it's been kind of uh start and stop right there's a kind of a been a demarcation of of responsibility and Authority right we've we've this board has no statutory Authority whatsoever right it's just been an ad hoc advisory um subcommittee to the select board for the sole purpose originally it was to investigate this then we brought it Forward select board said to proceed and we've done our you know they reconstituted this this subcommittee to bring forth to where we are right now so we're kind of at the penultimate steps for this process but if we elect to proceed well then we need to Fig you know there's got to be some governance around the municipal um entity that's going to oversee this endeavor you know from the design you know working with the designer working with the installer in construction and then you know ongoing and so on and so forth but before I put the uh cart way in front of the horse you know there we did have a presentation from whip City so was a month or so ago now seven or eight weeks now um and frankly the revenue projection there was some some question around the um you know what people think a take rate might look like and based on what we were going to propose to build strictly for residential you know I know and I know Bob I'm gonna come right back to you in a moment because Bob and others have spent a lot more time on some of the financial modeling to try to you know to justify where we are the whip City numbers came back and I don't have them right in front of me but the whip City numbers were you know you were teetering and tottering right around zero um depending on the take rate depending on the you know the the amount we're going to charge and so on and so forth so but it you know we've we've gone down a bit of a path um as far as some of the Make Ready work poll applications and so on and so forth but once we take if we elect to take the next step we're all in right I've talked about this a couple times but just to be clear for everyone else and anyone else who's watching the recording and um and I don't know if I made the point in in the meeting last or the or or we were just kind of uh kibit in because we didn't have a quorum was you know there's been a lot of talk in town um probably more at the government level than out in the general population but it with sewers and I promise to tie this all together is you know one of the problems we have with with uh sewers in the town of south lake is we have 800 users on a system that built for way more than 800 users we've got a ton of capacity the costs are escalating to maintain that sewer infrastructure and to take that se you know to maintain that capacity um but they don't have enough users and they have no Prospect to add more users the cost to add users is it even makes this project look tiny um so but the analogy that I wanted to draw was if once we step off if we decide to step off the ledge on the next thing we're all in right we can't build one fiber hood and then decide to get cold feet and stop because we will have built we would have paid for the design for the whole town we would have start to build out the whole town and then you can't saddle a fiberhood with the entire cost of all that infrastructure and the back end that's being designed to support the entire town so that being said once I so once we step off that ledge we got to go and so that's why we've been very very deliberate very very cautious and very you know having a lot of you know whether it's Devil's Advocate or taking a look at all the numbers and and trying to look at a worst case best case and say okay this if everything goes great this is you know easy peasy if everything doesn't go exactly according to plan which does it ever you know this is where we end up and or things go you know worse than we you know we thought this is where we end up and so but we have to I think we owe it to the the taxpayers and everyone else to to do you know make sure we've done our due diligence and then to make sure that we're confident that once we do take that you know we go beyond where we are right now and start committing resources um to the project that we're going to go and and because we just can't stop if you stop you're going to it's it'll be self-fulfilling that you'll you'll be in big trouble I think that's just you know that's my opinion on that for now and so why don't we um Bob Bob are you with us at this point or are you still yes I'm I'm here okay did you want me to bring up any of the stuff that you shared on the screen or anything like that or yeah sure the the best one up is uh the last one I sent out the version for uh Financial uh or the debt retirement chart that's probably the best place to start okay yeah so while you're bringing it up um I can kind of describe what it has I ran a few b a bunch of different analysis with some different prices and some different take rates to try and get an idea of what the maximum debt would need need to be um loanwise and then the projection of when that retire when that debt would be retired um So based on that you can kind of get an idea of um if the select board is willing to you know go that much into debt with the possibility that things could go south before it's paid off um or you know technology changes and maybe before we even pay it off um we're we're stuck with I'm just waiting for my computer to bring that thing up here and I apologize I'm muting myself in between uh your chair here so oh hurries all right let me see if I can't pull this off I have well that's loading do you want to go over the minutes real quick get those approved uh we sure can thank you Julie what do we have for minutes to approve you remember you recall 815 minutes I did did for the last name you gave me y you you actually last time and we did we approve them as amended or we just said we were going to table them because of the corrections yeah okay okay has everyone looked at the minutes from August 15 yes yes yes yes okay would someone like to make a motion to approve the minutes of August 15 I motion that we approve the minutes of August 15 okay second motion made in seconded we to take a roll call vote Doug mugin yesland yes yes Jim Crowley yes Chris board yes and online Ryan peace uh Ryan P yes Ian Creswell Ian Creswell yes Tom Kik Tom Kik yes Bob boy Bob boy gu okay so while we were doing that I was able to get that to come up on the screen here so I think yes Lord my computer slow okay Bob it's on the screen for you sir all right so I ran the the the 50% um take rate at the $85 figuring um that all right yeah I ran it at 50% 60% 7 uh 70% um $85 ran the 50 and 60 and then figure if we drop to 75 we'd probably get at least the 60% um so just to you can see the the different different numbers there um best case I I trying to play it conservative I didn't want to run a 70% takee rate at the $85 um just because of the comparison of what Comcast offers at $85 um or they just have so many different plans below $85 that I can see a significant amount of people not wanting to do that um so whip City their numbers were based on basically the $75 um and in West it's even 65 so just just playing conservative there um I did throw in here um if you scroll over column I and over um the possibility and we'd have to see if whip City can do this of having a second tier service of 10 gig and you know if we could offer that at $100 or $115 without major increases in infrastructure cost or monthly monthly management fees from whips City I think that would give us a huge leg up on Comcast and even something that they can't even do with their current infrastructure um if you look at the competitive rates from Comcast you can get 10 gig service from them at least at my address but I'm pretty sure that's you know they would have to lay the fiber to do that um $300 a month $500 service fee and a three-year commitment with a $300 cancellation fee So based on all this that you guys see um are there any particular questions um the the 10 gig Services how' you come up with that Bob you just plan what if if we were able to offer a higher service okay yeah I know I know that whip City said that um the infrastructure would be designed to support up to 40 gig um so in theory we'd be able to offer 10 um yeah we I mean I don't know what we'd get for takers I mean even at a gig most people are surprised to learn that they don't use anything even remotely close to a gig on a consistent basis it's all really marketing but if I told you you could get a gig at 75 or 10 gig at 100 which one would you choose I understand oh yeah no I mean maybe uh you know two gig would probably be a safer thing to offer um some people just like it and and uh going with the xgs pond that would have um you know enough capacity in there that you could you could statistically have customers in that tier and and not run out of bandwidth on the pond um but I think you're going in a definitely going in the right direction have other tiers of service that could bring a premium price I think you might be more have to see business uptake go up with with a premium with a with a premium uh um offering and a premium price yeah and that too uh Ian it's uh so most of the the lowcost business services you're going to see from Comcast are based on their coax Network and it'd be easy for us to compete against that with a fiber Network provided it the customer is just looking for straight internet Comcast has a lot of add-ons that they can offer businesses uh email it is just for you know a quick quick one so um and you don't have to offer a lot of bandwidth at businesses to compete against Comcast specifically uh we could have 200 Meg service 300 500 uh we could offer a competitively to businesses um I think the the issue is how many businesses could we get to come on to to make a financial impact with the revenue yeah and that was one question I had which is why you see in the chart I've got 60 businesses and 120 businesses just just having no idea what South really has I think they safe numbers to play what if with yeah but but you're absolutely right between the 60 and 120 it's it's not that big of an impact um on the financials but if we can we can take you know a thousand residential customers and instead of 75 get a $100 from them that's an extra 25 straight to the bottom line that's that's fantastic that's the uh that's the dream but yeah I think we've got to got to continue to be conservative on the on the estimate if whip city is not able to get that much I don't know how we'd be able to a question how much assuming that most folks in town are as ignorant as I am about this and that the Baseline the uh I guess what are what are the benefits of going to what you're talking about JY about going like that 100 up to like a 100 or yeah different speed tiers yeah um so with residential I mean it's because people are working from home yes so it's not like like like and we have no idea how many people are working from from home it's it's not like going online with Aunt Tilly at 8 o'clock every night I mean there are some folks who use the internet for their occupation I think we'd be able to uh provide so what what would what would someone who is working from home what would speak their language even though they can't they can't talk about they have no idea about gigs or anything else like that yeah um what would they need for a smooth operation I mean depending on the Ser really anything they don't even need a gig I mean a gig to actually use it most the vast majority of users not including hardcore Gamers could could not fill up a gig pipe coming into their house because you have to think about it where what we'd be getting from Westfield if the whole town was lit up with uh let's call 4,000 people what we'd be getting from our ISP from Westfield uh they would only be giving us a bandwidth of less than 20 gig to to split with the whole town so it it's based on statistical because you're you're not you're not taking all that bandwidth continuously yeah mostly speaking all the time it's it's shared it's bursty so that that's you know just how it works so that so people you know if if residents are being able to to get a gig and the equipment and the networks capable of doing that even when you know kids are home from school and then they get online and then the usage gets up the network would still be able to handle that the way it's designed whereas well you hear stories about Comcast you know once the kids come home people are working at home all of a sudden they can't even do some of their business so it's just a um you know statistically how that usage is is being impacted I think that would be that description would be should be part of any promotional material going out so that those folks who are are not gig conscious yeah we'd want to uh you know promote that as a selling point um you know the managed uh Wi-Fi that Westfield can offer through the um the router that they're placing out there um you know those are all benefits makeon is given that now so anything that then depending what equipment vendor we ultimately decide on um you know some of them have different options and things that you could put out there as an offering okay and and just touching on the business thing they're offering no deals on business being Comcast um I just I just uh swapped over my plan I swapped back to residential I'm paying for gigabit my Works paying for a gigabit um and I'm doing another speed test now I I'm I'm pulling 101 megabits both directions um that's as high as I get um so you what they claim to be giving me as a gigabit is is garbage uh number one uh of course I'm on I'm off of North Lumis so I'm out on the edge of town but the um and again I asked because I've been on business class for about six years uh paying about 160 a month for like it was like 54 down and 11 up and uh uh to to get anything better was going to cost me more than that um uh for the uh the business class so we would we would have been pushing closer to the 170 180 Mark uh to put that in which is why I went back to residential um but that said they are they're offering Deals they started offering them last year when we started looking more serious as soon as we went we were getting ready to go to the uh Town vote uh was about the time they started offering really good deals they're giv me I think I got a three-year I think I got three years contracted at that rate which is uh 85 after their discounts I'm paying about 85 a month right now um after three years where does it go it's not going to be 85 anymore but that's that's the thing right we're in the kind of The Catch 22 where um they're they're they're trying to prevent it from going forward by offering decent rates a year and a half two years ago you couldn't come close to what they're offering right now um that's just reality and it'll go back to that once this gets squashed assuming it were to get squashed and so it's it's one of those things where it's so hard to sit here I look at the numbers and say okay we're out to 202 or uh yeah 2046 um uh with a you know W with with one uptake slide oh you that's on your screen that's why I can't see the whole thing um yeah at 85 bucks we're at like 2050 with a 60 business uptake and 50% uptake residential um which is probably the number we want to play in early on unless we were going to come in at a lower rate then I'd feel more comfortable at more of a 55 to 60% residential uptake if we were coming in at like 75 just based on what I know I'm getting um and to your to your point Jim most people wouldn't notice the difference I mean I stream my TV I'm uploading and downloading big files all day every day I'm connecting to people's computers all day every day doing tech support and so on and would I see a difference if I were to bump to to to an actual gig yeah probably would it be significant no I'm not gaming and that sort of thing so I probably wouldn't really notice a difference yeah and that's where if we we do offer gig service we have to convince people that you know they're getting benefit for it even if they're not seeing it we have to give the value proposition that they're willing to adopt sure yeah I mean we could we don't want to get into making guarantees because it's we're not charge enough money make make it worthwhile but if you look at all the fine print of any service Comcast is offering for residential or or basic business class it's it's always going to say up to a certain speed right so up to a gig but that doesn't mean that uh you're ever going to see it unless you get up at maybe three in the morning and and try running some speed tests and and doing your work then um you know that that's just the way it is it's um so we we have we would have an advantage to that so we'd have to capitalize on it you know just being able to offer a pure Gig if that's what someone's looking for they're going to have that most of the time and if they don't have a gig uh running a speed test they're probably going to be getting three or 400 you know that might be the worst but I I wouldn't even expect that very often that would be you know that'd be something that if we were seeing that consistently then we would um you know have a have to make a network change I guess one thing that I'm concerned about is um you know if basically this goes out until 2050 or 2048 like my thinking is there's some technology that's going to come along that's going to be better than what we're you know what we're offering and then people are going to want to change to you know whatever it is that is being offered and then you're still paying yeah I mean the biggest source of competition that I think that any network owner municipal or or uh commercial is going to have is is Wireless now some of the big ones Horizons they're they're using that um at least locally because they're not building a FiOS that's that's their game plan it's going to keep getting better and faster uh starlink is most likely going to be getting a little faster so those things will they'll always be for competition probably getting better um you can't beat a solid connection on fiber that's been proven and uh you know it really is the the best uh Network in terms of reliability but you know we'd have to keep it that way and and it you know really is a a longterm game for building a network hi it's is Ryan um so at this point like do you guys feel comfortable to like vote and say we should move this forward or do we still need to talk about the numbers well I think that's to I'll leave it to the subcommittee here because at this point based on the numbers that I've seen from whip City and based on what the previous survey said and and not even anecdotal data but the surveys that we conducted prior to us being reconstituted and presented I don't think a 50% take rate is out of the question I think it's a very realistic Target the question is is going to be what's going to be the dollar amount we're going to we'll be able to charge and and you know we've talked about this at nauseum but the you know some little bit of price elasticity of demand of if you're at $90 you're way under 50% if you're at $50 you're way over 50% if you're at $85 or $75 you're you're right in the hunt for that and what what the numbers bore out to me on the whip City stuff and even on this here um is that you're very very close to break even to a little over at a 50% take rate I don't I I would love to have and you know Bob I did get your email and I I did compose a note over to them but I haven't heard back yet um is uh you know we we did lay out the network to be able to support the gon no xgs Pon that's the one you know so we can go the fiber network doesn't that doesn't matter right but we would have the headend equipment to even come out of the gate at a higher speed if we wanted to offer it second tier or out of the gate at a higher speed um and and well we'll come back to it but my take on it is I think this having this service is going to be advantageous for current homeowners and businesses it's also going to be an economic driver for folks looking to move to this area I think you know that having you know a fiber internet infrastructure in the town is going to be as critical as any other utility going forward and and and and for business or for for residential um you know the nature of work for a lot of folks has changed where they it's absolutely imperative that they have you know reliable consistent high-speed bandwidth um and for business you know it doesn't almost matter what the business is that's a requirement if you have customers you know it's not the vast amounts of bandwidth but it has to be there all the time and it has to be reliable doesn't matter if you're selling coffee and someone comes in to swipe their credit card that's not high bandwidth but the reliability is just huge um and you know and for other businesses that you know that may be interested in in coming to town or developing in town it it's not it's going to be an information-based business no matter what type of business it is so I think is strategically important as a development for the town the the question is is can and and you know agree 100% I think the bigger threat to to this in the long term is is Wireless but I just think that it's the nature of Wireless that it cannot compete in in at least in the medium range term with wire fiber whatever you want to call it just for reliability it's you know fiber not affected by weather it's not affected by you know a lot of congestion and frankly the 5G stuff that you know we're seeing is is going to require a ton of buildout huge huge buildout locally in order to implement it you know if you go to some cities now and look at what they're building out for 5G it's like every other poll or they start putting up light poles through downtowns in order to provide the coverage for 5G it doesn't go as far as the 4G stuff so if I if I can jump in real quick that is a possibility if we build out the network we might be able to lease space on the network to things like Verizon for those 5G access points yeah can't build it into the financials but it is a possibility but you know Verizon owning so many of these you know they've done it a few times already in our town where they've put um you know they put infrastructure on existing polls um in town and uh you know they they built up a a smaller cell site for to to cover gaps but they haven't even started a 5G roll out in this area other than you know the broader over overarching Tower stuff that you see they probably won't they're going to the densely populated areas so 100% but you know here I just you know just from where I sit you know the starlink is obviously a threat some people are going to buy that that and you know it's a good service not expens it has latency it has some other some other issues to it so I when we embarked on this this endeavor you know and whether it was with whip or with somebody else it was really about um you know there was a there was a ground swell of support for it the financial models say that we can do this and retire the debt before this stuff is technically technologically obsolete especially the fiber infrastructure itself you know and the xgs pond and that won't go become obsolete I mean there's going to be more demand for bandwidth that's been a trend it's still going and and the best way to deliver that reliably is with a fiber Network so that that's definitely in our favor um so it's we need to be aware of the potential competition from Wireless and but you know Comcast is a biggest threat yeah um I 50% it's it could be achievable I mean if everything is done right I don't think we should really calculate for anything beyond that if we're lucky enough to ever get that far um you know I think that's that's a victory right there so but you know and and I I absolutely talked right through the question but the the basic question is is I think at this point I'd like the subcommittee to to kind of weigh in at this point and say we we should go back to our appointing authority which is the select board and say we should or should not proceed with this project based on the financial data that's been presented and that we've developed and discussed as a committee and I to be honest with you not and not for any political reason I just I I think there's folks on this board that have done a ton of work financially and that have a ton of experience in this space I want to hear everyone's thoughts and opinion on this and then call for a vote from the subcommittee and then we can go back to the appointing authority with the result of that and then let them decide where to go from here because they you know I am but one member on that board but we you know that is the deciding ending deciding Authority I've made my you know my opinion clear but you know certainly you guys have been in this for the Long Haul we we've sat through all the presentations we've sat you know we've sat with Finance we've sat with whip City you know Mr Boyd and and everyone else has done a ton of work on the fin fincial piece with with the the rest of the crew to try to figure out what the take rate would look like and what what a you know at what price we you know we think we're going to be and are we going to be able to retire the debt based on the updated costing that we've developed for the project that's presented by whip City and that really should be and lastly is you know is this a worthwhile Endeavor for us to you know if we can retire the debt um in a reasonable amount of time with income generated from the service should we proceed and we feel the am amount of time to retire retire that debt is 20 25 years it's going to take a it's going to take up and I don't know the answer to that Mr Boyd I think we're gonna have to we're gonna have to borrow in chunks as we build out and then as we build out there's going to be Revenue to come in that's really difficult to model whip City took a best stab at it you know to kind of give us some numbers because based on their experience or what they saw and you know obviously we based on the the number of fiber hoods we would have and where we would go first to try to hit density it's going to start having Revenue come in but like I said once we step off that ledge we're committed so even you know we can't just leave off the sparse ones at the end or what have you we've got we made a commitment as part of the project to do the whole thing do we do we have any numbers that can be discussed at this meeting in regards to the cost estimates I know there was concern with an NDA that that hadn't been we did execute that okay and I can get you those numbers they're not uh under we checked with everybody they're not for it has to do with we have the costing numbers of what the project will cost that was presented um there was some other costing numbers in there from whip City that they don't want yeah that's understandable I guess my my thinking is and and this isn't trying to get a number right now but what state is the design in right now is it nearing completion are they halfway done do we have any I honestly and I'm asking because you've got two things going on you got the design that's going on where you know they've been surveying the town they're starting to design it um and then they're also surveying for uh Make Ready y applications so we got to apply to the those are done okay the poll applications are all I the applications are in so now this next step is uh the utilities are going to go out there with an agent from Westfield and they're going to go and look at the polls and and each poll that that is saying that there might be an issue or not and that's going to provide the closer number to this top number that we have no idea but it starts with a four on this and it's very large um until that's done and the design is completed we're just going to have these theoretical numbers so I don't know if we can really make a recommendation until we really have some of that back you know if if it comes back I mean make if Make Ready is is less that's great then we can put that in there's a good chance it could be less there is but that's why they took that as a kind of a if I recall that was not the best case scenario for make ready yeah I think that's the worst case yeah and so that's and you want to do that because it's nothing to pay you know you can pay five grand to have a poll replace if there's Transformers and and all kinds of other uh Network and that's why we didn't this whole process has been deliberately loaded with kind of the worst case or you know bad things happening so that we don't you know just frankly been involved in enough projects where oh it's a cup of coffee a day or oh it's this is going to be this CU it's going to be great and then it never is and then so we kind of frame things up as kind of a worst case and that's why that make ready number is so large I don't I don't want to say it's going to be less than that because it could well we want yeah we want to use it so that's why I'm asking if anything come back I Haven seen anything back so the applications are in we won't know you know it's going to be months yeah before we get back a cost estimate but then once we have that then we'll know because that that's really uh it's it's almost a third of the cost of the overall Network we need to know how much that's going to move we hope it's going to be less but I mean a million less is going to have huge impacts in in Bob's model so um there's that and also the actual design itself um there's there's two goals with the design one you can generate a materials list and then you can put real you know you're going to need 600 of these items um based on the number of houses they they've get so then you can start really getting realistic numbers so what we're working with I don't even want to say if it's plus or minus 10 or 25% we we don't know until we get that design done and that's it's really the least expensive part of the project is is having that design um Make Ready applications are pretty pricey so you know at least my feeling is those those were the Make Ready apps were done and submitted so we kind of we'll get a cost back from them saying for this application number one it's going to cost right right the make ready it's going to cost $432,000 right right um and we've got to look at that look at them all as a whole and before we start that's you know I think that's when we're going to have real numbers um they're going to be valid for a while you know even because it's going to take some time to do make ready it takes a long time to build a network so I just think that know because we do have you know a budget right now without doing any borrowing um you know finding that final design number getting updated quotes and then finding out what the Make Ready is going to cost that's going to put us in a better position to know what to recommend literally could be you know plus or minus um I 20% 25% I mean Pro number if we make a recommendation my understanding is that then the select board will be looking at it and we're just making a recommendation right yeah but we I I liken this to any other you know if you've gone a town meeting and see other boards recommend a a spending article for example right and then the finance committee weighs in on it and you know the finance committee's purview is we have the money at that point for some of these things for some statutory boards right because they didn't sit through all the hours and hours of whip City numbers and spend hours in front of the computer with the financial models right that the select board is really looking at it going okay we told you guys to go do that work give us your recommendation back so I think that that's and you know I hear what you're saying I think but we have to and I don't know if we're at that point or we can query further but we have to at some point we've spent some money already right we've had you know and we have you know the money you know I don't want to spend Beyond about where we've spent in my opinion we shouldn't spend as a town more money than we've already spent as part of the application process and and so on and so forth and then they come back with the Make Ready number maybe that that's the point that you make that decision but we have to keep moving along I just want to make sure that we we we've properly updated the select board as to you know what you know if we said all right this number is just untenable the models just don't work we can we don't have to wait for that but it is you're right it does kind of split the hairs down to where where we not a bad idea because you know I think I don't want to speak out of turn I I think I know roughly where we spent on all the applications um you know and it's not an insignificant sum but it's not a ginormous amount of money it's not a six figure number it's within oh okay I thought it was going to be more than that um so we're still within the the grants and budget that we started out with correct and because the design cost isn't generally it's not going to change other than because that's based on forget if it's bed on based on the footage or the number of households but know one of those formulas so that's essentially finite um Make Ready applications are essentially finite they're in so we know that cost now it's really just getting getting the results of that what's the cost going to be if you for them to do the work that we want them to what's that cost going to be and I think that'll drive everything else from there so that that's I brought it up because I don't know if we can really make an informed decision saying based on our model we should go ahead or based on our model we shouldn't because our model is based on numbers that the best numbers we had but they're all estimates but having the design finished and getting the Make Ready costs coming in then we'll have some real numbers that can be part of the recommendation we can yeah basically say yes we think we should move forward and this is what we think we need to look at next yeah because it's we already spent you know we're spent the money on the applications we are spending the money on the design we know that that's you know it's not going to keep uh increasing that's pretty much a fixed cost once we have that then you know that's when we can start you know really looking at these numbers we can get um an idea of what the construction cost will be based on Westfield's experience with materials and and their contract prices they're seeing for labor that's when you can really put it into to the the model which the model is is fantastic and we can start playing I mean if you're saying that could change 25% I threw that number the way to go we gota we gotta be prepared for it well to be clear I just and for folks following at home too is we don't think it'll go it should not go up 25% this was kind of a worst case scenario I I don't think I me the savings I mean the savings that even if it's a 10% savings that's a sign signant right and I just don't want to be in a place because we've all seen it with anything to do with frankly involving the government where they it's this and then all of a sudden it's you know it's it's a bigger number with this this for this particular project we've attempted to take kind of the worst case scenario and and say okay it's it's you know you have the number in front of you with a four in it right and go okay that's the number if it were less than that great it's going to help the model but in you know right now it's it's dicey at that number where where we turn up but I just think I agree you know I think you have to look at strategically and and and whatnot and if that you know you know I want to give everyone the opportunity to weigh in here um so that I can report back to my board on um when we meet next I don't think we meet next week because of the holiday so we meet the following week but that's certainly the the goal of mine so so let me let me let me ask this Doug then I mean and and this is um because I get I get where Jim's coming from and at the same time I look at this and I I I I think we've done our best to work with as you say worst case numbers um and based on that is it not fair to recommend or not recommend based on the worst case numbers we have before us today uh that they pursue it further pending the outcome of final quotes and all that for the uh make ready and because it's really at the end of the day now it becomes the select board's job to say yay or nay and finance committee's job to say yay or nay the we we're we're we're willing to go forward because we're really working off of again best best guess allegedly worst case scenario numbers um I I I mean is is it on us to to to whittle it down to the to the penny here before making a recommendation I'm not sure it is I'm not saying it isn't I'm just kind of tossing it out there well what's the select board going to do with that information if we if we say yes we support it going ahead it's still you know we're quite a bit of time away from but there's design work and then I think that the the other work that needs to be done um is I think we really do need to set up some level of governance and process behind the Municipal Light PL right today everything's been kind of on a on a and and and it's it's not it's not a huge expense but it's a lot of work like there's legal work and there's probably got to be some I want to just call it people infrastructure put in place in town hall not high ing folks but just right now it's myself has been talking to whip City or Nicole Parker or Nate Dean and and you know preparing all of the you know the documentation certificates of insurance and blah blah blah you know there's been a lot of background work that Administration yeah and it's going to get there'll be more before there's less and then you start getting into the actual implementation of the service um because we actually do have some ability um you know we also have to um we have to locate where the Hut will be and figure out you know work with all the related departments on you know a Turf War on where that thing's going to be and this that and the other and um all and it's going to take a while to do that even to you know once you say go because once we do if we do say go we actually can start providing some of this service on on in some of these areas almost straight away because of the access from the rail trap right we're not as dependent on some other cities and towns that need a lot more infrastructure work than we do AKA West Springfield right who's follow you know they're a little ahead of us right now in their Make Ready work so so if you help me with here so these numbers here we have here not not looking at the Comcast numbers but on the other sheet these are these are worst case numbers right roughly more or less worst case numbers the numbers that we that we've put to yeah is it still up there so we've gotten it previously so the the odds are it it probably won't increase the odds are if anything is going to decrease it's what decrease well I I don't know probably go down a little bit it's the hope but everything else has been instruction costs are going to go up every year just materials figure longer we wait 3% we're down that path I mean as far as the the construction schedule's not moving in or out from here and guys I just got to let you know we may have to take a brief recess to adjourn because there's another board that has a a meeting in this room so we may have to yep we are um is conference room 3 available can you just open it in case we have to shoot out and run down there all right thank you we shoot out and run down there yeah because we're not going to resolve is next five minutes NOP so um we are going to take a brief recess because we have to move to a different room because there's another board that has this room on a more regular basis than us and so how are we going to do this I think if we do this right we're gonna no we never yeah we're gonna we're gonna pause for a moment and we're going to move to the other room uh Tom and is Cliff still on clip if you're still on if we by any chance lose you just dial back in but we're going to try to preserve it okay we'll do okay and and Bob and Ryan and Ian okay so I re resume the recording as well all right where where we sorry about the Interruption I think we're kind of going around the room and now that everybody moved chairs we'll have to remember where we were going around the room where were we I think we're talking about a recommendation correct I think we were at a point where we were thinking we should take a vote I I think I don't think we're have a problem getting the 50% take rate talking you know from talking to people around town people hate contest and they're very anxious to see this come in that's true we got to the people that we're going after are people that are current streamers or people that would leave Comcast Triple Play to become a streamer because that's all we can offer with internet just basic internet services serfing and then know streaming video it's getting more popular but um It's Not Unusual for people in in any towns when they say oh the towns were getting fiber okay cool I can how do how do I get ESPN on here and then all of a sudden you're they're being introduced to streaming if they don't already do it which gives you m multiple choices yeah so I think 50% it's it's a ideal I I'd be uncomfortable with anything more than that yeah I agree Jim from a projection perspective I I think 50% is where we got to sit um any anything higher is it would be nothing more than hopeful um and would be awesome if we achieve it but I think 50% is is is kind of a fair line to sit at hello so still am I still connected no you're still connected I think uh they dropped off or muted I don't see I do see Doug in the meeting still but I can't hear them at all yeah I hear I'm hearing them as well you hear us now I heard something let me turn this off can you hear us now yeah yeah yes yes okay so you turn you turn the video on the audio goes up so we're going to go we're going this way darn C all right anyway um no I I don't think we could use any number higher than 50% I think 50% is at the higher end of an estimate yeah estimated spectrum of what we would expect to take um so you know there's been a lot I you know personally I've heard a lot of push back from others when you know looking through the numbers questioning that take rate number as as being very realistic I personally I think it is but again it's just my opinion um but I think you know what we were talking about before and were you on the phone the whole time till you got here so you're you're completely up to speed all right so um I think we use that as the basis and then you know aim to shoot higher but never I don't I don't think you can use any number higher than that in an estimate um for for planning purpose but so based on that it's a 25e payback with a $15 million loan so that 15 million but one of the when we were talking with Westfield they took their paperwork with them um they understand why so um but after looking at that what we don't have in here I don't think is the cost of the installations we went based on their estimate or were you talking about connection individual well they they cost what it's going to cost the the town to do it so for example if someone uh has a house 200 feet off the road um and they want underground you know how much is are we going to pay to have that run say they have existing underr underground utilities it's going to cost us more uh the drop table itself that goes from the terminal and a pole into the house that's part of the cost and I don't know if we modeled in the cost of the and router I thought that was in there okay but I thought that there was like another throw out maybe $2 million that is is a cost we want to see in our model just to really you know get the numbers right and that's what I'm not sure with have everything didn't West didn't Westfield have a cost Allin with everything installations all the equipment believe that's the number we're using I thought it was like I don't I don't want to speak out of term but and so so someone checked my memory is I think there was a budgeted number there are going to be there are going to be locations where the install is arduous and way more than average and therefore there's going to be an additional cost to that Resident or business to connect just because if they have a one mile long driveway or you know or some other thing that prevents the easy installation of a drop or or underground or you know to the to the what you call the D Mar or whatever I just want to make sure we don't miss it because that's a significant operations cost and for a technician will go out there run the drop either from the pole or through the existing conduit go out there uh get the on fired up turn up the service you know it's uh generally you're looking at two to three hours of time there so you know to throw a number on that four4 to $500 per installation so we you know we're not going to successfully charge that to the resident so a lot of that is going to be part of our Network cost that's what I don't know if that's in because I I haven't seen well that would be an additional cost to the resident if there's way off way off the right I'm talking someone that's 150 ft off the road yeah it's still going to be you know four you could probably throw a number $400 and and I think it's probably in their model I just don't know if if we have that buil into ours we have built in right now a $100 charge and if that proves to be an average of 200 and that's okay make but but people say okay I'll pay a 100 bucks but if our cost is going to be four 500 per household on average I don't think that's unrealistic um then that's that's going to change yeah so if but was there that's why I'm asking for someone to check me because I didn't we didn't they have an installation cost [Music] per unit built into the cost model and then said If it's outside of this then you're going to have to figure out how to recover that cost I want to say yes but I'm not entirely they may have had it in there but what is it cuz I don't think that is in here it's in the 19 right uh think 17 see jump it's part of the total building yeah this is really just the build you know overhead and underground distribution that's that's f F plant that's not the drop in a house so I don't think it's in here I allowed to say numbers yeah I don't think yeah by all mean 4.4 for the total M ready 12.18 53 total buildout okay and then there's make ready of 302,000 H construction of 755,000 that so that 12 say 12.5 you have what that 17 nothing total okay I kind ofall about 17 so if 17 is what you've been in there that's what we want to work with I have a stupid questions there's no stupid question there are n if we as part of all these estimates and my numbers the Ricochet around do we have the cost of a salary of a management of this operation we have 103 annually budgeted for maintenance and infrastructure costs so that would be it would not be a full-time job full gets hit that to fix it we we're not going to make a claim on insurance that claim doesn't include insurance so you know it's just things that have lightning hits or power comes down that burns the fiber okay that's $25,000 to repair that those are the things that that to come in um so that that's I think it's a good start right there yeah I I guess in terms just the installation material and labor if that's in there and we're comfortable with in confident then that's the number we want to use who's going to be the point of there would be somebody some towns so you know and how much would they be paid because how much we pay them is going to condition how much it's not a full-time job so most of the day-to-day tasks are going to be handled by West whp City know they're going to get the calls service doesn't work um they're going to be coordinating Field Services um we need would need someone in the MLP someone that's going to handle off there's annual poll attachment fees things that come up residents need a place to go if they're not happy with the service they're getting you know because we're hiring them to run our Network so you got to have someone you don't want to have them go to the select board all the time because you know they're not happy with something they oh they still will though well they may if they don't the ml manager he raises an excellent point and I I make light only because I can um it that's kind of what we talked about a little bit or I spoke a little bit about earlier tonight was governance is that if we're going to proceed we need to fully establish a Municipal light board now maybe that is the Selectmen the board of Selectmen acting as the Municipal Light plant until the service is up and running and and or maybe at another time there becomes a mun Municipal light board if you will that becomes the administ ative board and has some administrative support I don't see it needing a full-time person just because the call center is outsourced to whip City you have the technicians as whip City so if someone does stuff a poll it's not going to be a you know what I mean but there will be administrative support in town hall yeah we could we could get that information need to have an intelligent point of contact yes but I don't see it being a full-time job correct it could be someone so I've heard numbers uh know $112,000 a year as a stien for someone acting in that role part time they could be a an existing Town employee that adds a little extra um responsibilities uh or it could be you know elected it just all different ways to do it but you know it shouldn't be full if it's full-time then something wrong my recommendation would be to have the town form this Municipal board or at least somebody that represents it and they're the one that can ultimately make the decision whether to continue with this or not because a lot of these depend on what rates are going to be what take rates are going to be and all we can do is look at the possibilities in the different vars so I I don't personally don't want to commit the town to $25 million debt if that's what it turns into I think what true but I think based on the numbers we have we need we need to give the select board the guidance to either proceed to the next you know maybe it's waiting till we get back to make you know the final Make Ready number or we tell them look we we're comfortable with where we are with right now and but and and the other part of the recommendation I in my opinion to this board to as part of their recommendation is is that if you go ahead you got to go allall in you've got to go and commit you have to have the fortitude to see it through because if you you cannot take your foot off the gas to once you start Beyond about where we are right now once you get the Make Ready number and tell folks to go start spending money to make those polls ready you're committed because you can't bond first you're gonna have a we're gonna have to bond we have and we have a$3 million you know we have the money we have we have a $3 million borrowing authorization we're going to have you know there is a check and balance here right we have to go back to town meeting at some point to borrow more money what happens if they say no well that's always the risk we'll have great line and we'll have that and you'll have and and frankly they and that's up to you know the select board and and you as members of town meeting to speak to that issue at town meeting is look we we were upfront with everybody said look we we're this three million is not all we're going to ever borrow we're going to need to borrow more and if we and and frankly you bring up the analogy that I brought up at the beginning of this meeting as the sewers right if you decide not to borrow the additional money in order to finish the project you're going to be left with an enormous burden that's going to be left on the taxpayer to handle because the infrastructure will be built to handle thousands of residents and businesses and you're servicing hundreds so to retire the debt would be you know and you're obligating yourself that brings up an interesting point so the town gave us the author or the people of the Town gave the town the authorization to do a $3 million borrow people of the Town authorized the town to form the Municipal Light and Power Plant twice the people of the town have not authorized the borrowing of $15 million total or to proceed with this y perhaps and I don't think they would I don't think they would do that the town that give that authorization to say yes we understand projection is going to need to borrow $15 million yeah yeah that's maybe I I mean from this meeting tonight I think that we would better idea the cost based on the design yeah is carry it till we get that make ready number make is always a wild com it takes the longest and it's the most uncertain so you better on and I mean we're not going to spend any more money until we do till we get that report correct like camera's not on he can't see me shaking my head correct so the modeling one thing what whip City said when they were here is that Verizon eversource will hold on to that money for a year before they start doing anything and it was two and a half years before they were finished with any of the service are so the modeling that I have takes that into account is two and a half years some the time makeer Begins for is the money spent to when we can even start building out at which point there's a three Monon period before you starts like well we should be able to build once some of the Make Ready is completed it's going to be by area ideally yeah so but you know you don't have to you don't have to wait till all the Make Ready is done before you start physically building but it's it's it's safer if you do sometimes you you just can't start because there's one pole in the middle of you and this whole side of town and you can't get passive builds done accelerated a little of this a little that if you can build earlier okay now you got to have that money earlier to build it out but you can also get the revenue back so I think in terms of what we presented the town this is our next step right I think so I think so whatever we as part of that conversation with the town we board a select it clear that this is the point of no return Yes you know is that if we if we vote to go ahead here we cannot turn back it will cost us more to turn back and it'll be hideous if we turn back well our vote is just a recommendation right but but but making CL whatever decision is made it's a point of no return yes right at least once a yes decision is made it is point of yeah and and that's been communicated to the select board and as part of my weekly because it's on the select board agenda is old business and every week we talk about different things and you know what's going on in these meetings I report back but one of the things that I've talked about and I'll certainly address it again just so that it's been made abundantly clear is that you know once you do step off from here you know once you have the Make Ready number and you start expending money towards make ready you can't St you can't stop right you've got to go and so you know I don't know what we and we were pretty clear at town meeting you're and you you I guess you one we were clear at town meeting that the 3 million was is not going to get it done we but we needed 3 million for you know as part of the make ready what I I was my thought process behind three plus the arpa gets us the make ready right and look where it right that was the educated guess right and so but then you got to start to borrow to actually build it out but you can't spend 3 million you know $4 million on make ready and then not fund the project right and that's and I'll tell you the rest and and just to draw back excuse me just to draw back one other analogy right it needs to be made clear to the town's people through the processes the town's done that before when has the town done that before uh the great sewer Massacre of 2016 we spent $600,000 town meeting voted to approve a design for a pump station and Sewer work along um pder Mill Road then didn't fund the project when they came back with the number to build it and said yeah no and so the 600,000 went out the window that was money was spent and was gone so we don't want to it again unfortunately the sewer analogies keep happening but I don't want we don't want to be in that position so we were very clear up front at the town meeting that look the three million is to get us to where we'd want to build a project then you've got to go and actually build out the rest the the rest of the infrastructure and actually construct the the network so would it be advisable for next May to get on the warrant to start you know with a borrowing article yeah yeah that's what say because we'll probably be at that point we shouldn't we shouldn't start spending anything on Make Ready they actually to do the work until we know we get the rest of the yeah exactly that's exactly what I wanted to say exactly be final by then you'll have actual footages um how much is underground how much is aial and knowing that they'll have footages to the houses they'll know approximate drop length so you can get some cost build around that too that might be to L well folks hear us now yeah I hear you fine they they could hear us yeah hey this is Ryan um I have to step off the meeting uh I have a event I have to go to okay oh Bo I'm sorry I I that's all right I think do you have five more minutes or you've gotta go no I got five minutes all right because I think we've I'm G to run out of laptop in about a minute too um we should so let's move this forward as far as where we are as far as putting our thoughts together so one is we should recommend to this the select board that well let me make sure I've captured it because I I I think from what I've heard is is that we should put forth a Warren article for a future town and I would recommend it be at an annual town meeting not a special what um subject to the board of Selectmen um a future borrowing authorization for the Delta between what the buildout is estimated and um and the 3 million and then and then we make that final decision whether we tap into the 300,000 uh the 3 million and or execute on the borrowing authorization for above that once we have the final Make Ready is that is did I capture the sentiment in the room yeah yes yes yeah next now to do that does that constitute a point of no return no okay yeah it would go to the town meeting and then that the town would decide really I guess at that point correct in that amount excuse me would roughly be ballpark M about 15 million but we'll want to but we're not but we do we really need that 15 million if we're getting money coming in for revenue for Revenue in the first like the first phase this is the the peak borrowing amount so I kind of have it is we have money we pay off old debt and then take new debt to cover new expenses in buildout so the maximum is about 15 million but if every you know in a perfect but I don't think we would ever have to borrow we would have 15 million outstanding at at a maximum yeah with the revenue be coming in paying that down so the the analysis would would like 17 all in what what monthly charge makes that work over 20 years5 um 50% take r at $85 per month with 120 businesses it's 15.1 million paid off in 2028 sorry 2048 25 years um with those buildings businesses and 50% residential right and better than that he's going to pay off the cost you estimated for business that they' be pay month $100 140 I say say [Music] 150ish depending on what it wouldn't have to give a gig we say listen 250 and it's still be better if you guys could speak up just a little bit I can hardly hear you sorry about that Ian there were arguing we discussing some of the finer points I kind of I kind of got that of Finance on this I wouldn't call it I was just asking what um which number worked with you know which monthly payment by residences and and how many businesses into the model would uh would make the bond pay back in 20 24 25 years got it so all the models I did the business rate yeah so we're looking at 85 which it's more than i' like but I mean it's it's not unrealistic that's why I did the analysis dropping that monthly fee down to $75 for residential because you know price DS elasticity even get a higher take rate and a lower price to do it at 75 what's the how much borrowing is that support you're back into it that one um it's actually I identical with a 6 % take rate in the $75 what at 7550 though what if you had a 50% take rate at $75 I did not do those numbers so I cannot say it would be higher than 15 million and later than 204 that's a safe assumption thank you okay so let's let's do this can we it will be the position of this board and we will take a vote to that effect um that we ask the select board to um put forth a bonding article for the additional um bonding authorization at the next annual se1 okay plus orus y and then we have um and then we await and we'll have those Make Ready numbers ahead of that town meeting by quite a bit I believe wait to make ready six to 12 months are estimates that I yeah we're a couple months in already so for that was there anything else and then you know I I think we should have them continue to discuss what you know from here what more would you like from us and you know what what role should you know start to structure out the MLP part of it um and because you you mentioned governance and you know what you know and and administration maybe this is that committee to do that or we form one and ask people to be on it obviously to see where to go from here because actually I think we're coming up to the point the point of note where we need someone who is pretty much dedicated to this being compensated at a level where we're as was explained to me many minutes ago certain salaries just guarantee you're keeping a chair war and another compensation that will you for the ring to that I'll bring that back to the select board and let them discuss that because that's going to be in their perview and I'm also trying to be sensitive to Ryan Ryan schedule and I do want to get I appreciate everybody coming together on relatively short notice suggestion too it's fine I like don't rush on me um I can wait I the we haven't done like a survey for who wants to join the service recently correct no maybe that would recommendation that we send out like a town survey or something to just get the current feel with maybe the pricing Point meeting okay don't give us a me when people respond to surveys you never get a huge sample but could give us a little more confidence whether looking at 50% or $75 or $85 all y and I can um there's going to be a lot of people that that want it for next to nothing you get 100% for free right yeah but no but we you we we did this data and granted it's three or four years old now but you were you were part of that we did a whole you we had several hundred you know respones is pre-co just pre-co right and um you know it was quite a quite a good response but it's maybe it's night time okay so I've added that bonding authorization uh Administration and MLP structure and then what should we do with this subcommittee from here based on where we are right now to I think we just look at the next steps in terms of what happens with we're able to get a read on do we want to convene get the uh make like the report back before it goes to the select board oh we we certainly we'll do that when we get it back I mean we're not through I just think we I want to try to set you know where we're going to be post all of that stuff because I mean obviously they're GNA they're probably going to want some advice back on when you get the final Make Ready numbers as to where we go from here so um and by the way I will send you all an email as to when this this will be on the I believe the next select board agenda so not next Monday the following Monday you know by all means you're more than welcome to and encouraged to attend um to discuss this at length I think it's good to do that just once a month just to talk off a state of design Make Ready um you know other steps as we get say we get past town meeting um in a boo I got to negotiated Construction contract with wood city um there still got the operator contract should talk about equipment vendors we do have some choice in that and there's there's options with that we're going need some type of marketing campaign at some time whether it's this committee or and come up with a name for the uh service yeah think we should V on this I think so um does anyone want to put that in the form of a motion I make a motion that we vote on making a recommendation to the select board regarding the points that we discussed I second the motion so that knows I'm on my own really I'm taking this paper with me thought to be clear so it's the bonding await to make ready dollar amount conduct an updated survey um and uh determine what the administration and MLP structure is going to be going forward did I capture yes the key high points is that your motion is that your second Mr Creswell Mr Vice chairman okay is anyone else have anything to add further discussion that I didn't that didn't chime in yet that wants to speak before we move to a vote committee is great and thank you for all your time it's everyone's really putting the effort in we're trying to do what's best for the town definitely 100% okay motions made in second and we'll do a roll call vote Doug mugglin yes Bob Boyd yes jimy yes CHR board yes R Clin yes Jim Johnson yes Tom KCK Tom KCK yes Mr peace Ryan P yes Vice chairman Creswell Ian Creswell yes that would be darn near unanimous in fact it is unanimous I would also take up even better motion to adjourn so move thank you Shez getting nervous okay all in favor I'm gonna check the pizza here have a good night oh thanks bye bye H and