we will open the planning board meeting for June 25th 2024 this is being conducted in a hybrid manner pursuing to the general laws uh if anybody's recording that is fine we need to let us know okay uh we will be recording it and we will be putting it on our website for everyone to view and listen um 7 o'clock pm. Town planners report thank you very much Mr sh just uh a couple of items to update the more on since our last meeting I had a chance to meet uh with the owner of Sun's convenience over in the north side of toal College Highway who wanted to discuss and explore opportunities for for mixed use permitting and development at that site or retaining the existing convenience and station operation I can say a little bit louder I met with the owner of Sunny's convenience on the north side of town looking at permitting um and design considerations for mixed use development at that property uh it's fair to say that the site is limited on Anchorage but I did underl the importance uh that the board observed most recently over Country Auto Sales where we were looking to have some protection and some separation between the users so protection of that residential use versus the existing and continuing commercial uh component the other item I wish to share with you is that uh with Mr K's presentation uh this evening that draws essentially to a close or towards the closing uh uh part of our work under a planning assist experence from from two years ago most of it uh supported the second phase of the master plan uh there was this remaining component that we pivoted towards examining our zoning bylaws that pel discuss this evening uh but with that drawing to a close I submitted uh to the on the community on stop for growth portal for planning assistance in essentially The Next Step so taking the recommendations of well a lot of our adopted Community adopted documents including the master plan uh taking the recommendations that'll come from uh Ken's zoning diagnostic effort and pushing that forward into action items for future town meeting warrants so Pyon modifications and uh Associated subdivision regulation changes so we'll see where that that comes uh that we're not going to get answers on that I think until this fall but hopefully we receive some support to that and continue this uh really fruitful process that we've we've experienced all have to say Okay 705 public comment anybody have anything for us tonight that is not on the agenda [Music] being n okay 710 p.m. got time yeah um discussion Noble seed Crossing construction update Jesse how are you tonight good how you doing good go couple um I just wanted to come in and just kind of go over basically an update from back in in February when we la like I last met in person with you guys um I've stayed uh in bi-weekly contact uh with Randy and John um at the DPW office going you know updating them every sing every other uh week uh with our progress and work that we've been uh completing on site and staying as close to schedule as we could um with um you know certain constraints with the conservation and um uh certain um permitting things that they are requiring us to do now that but we're working through all that stuff I've retained uh Jeff Smith and Steve salvini and Terry Reynolds and the that's kind of where we're at with the crossing um we're working through that right now to um because we're required to do a 401 permitting through D now um so we're working through that process to do that section of it but in the meantime um we've gotten uh um the go ahead from conservation basically a a good faith enforcement order from them to continue working to complete the drainage in that in those sections and this worksheet that I provideed you guys with today basically from our last meeting um and from when we started uh items one through six are what we've completed um to to date which was last last Tuesday's meeting that I had with John and Randy and um then I updated with new dates based on those new dates are based off of the um the concom um and the mass DP 401 permitting process that we're currently going through right now so I just want to bring you guys up to speed you know I know John's been probably updating you guys but at least you can hear it for me as well into what I what I said I was going to do when I was back in here on February so and right so it just looking at this water quality Bas number five is what you're working on right now uh yes that's correct uh it's not in a b and c is not in that's what you're working on now yep yep and we've uh notified the residents uh and and planning and D DPW with a letter that we're working within that easement so everybody's been notified okay all right anything on the board okay appreciate it thank you have a good day all right he want to do meeting minutes yeah let see I'll keep looking at my computer somewhere I yeah missh okay um we had some light assistance I'm sorry that's okay chair we're looking for stuff to fill time so it's a fair thing to bring up now that that we will the town meeting and election Associated there with have come and gone I believe we are at the juncture to reorganize planning board we put that on the agenda it's an internal conversation if you wish to then we can do the next meeting if we wish to take action that's what everybody did tonight all right so um start I Know M D to be the chair second oh sure I guess we'll do aoll call I will stain spe I sing David Su I just th and I okay make Mo Point da spe Vice chair I will second that call vot I David S i Jess and I okay um refresh me as to what we see you're the one that brought us up you started uh do we go secretary and no no no who's on what who's onc somebody else wants I will happily nominate Dave da uh planning board representative the CPC second I'll give a loc vote Iain David I Jess I all right um thank you we gotc who is Jessica right I will nominate second call vote majority I Jess Thon abstain okay um I think that's all that's all I wish conect this evening all right 7:15 public heing continued for o St at Road subdivision plan and storm water management permit application how are you this evening I'm good you dagers I right to the I don't know I could get cor and not be assault only Steve and we are here for Mort viny road administratively we will give you the request for an extension that you need as a b board appreciate that y that virtually speaking 30 days from June believe 9th uh June so we're gonna have to do another no no actually yeah complet it we're through this brings us to roughly the end of July okay so we're through the next meeting yes okay all right got it wrapped up okay that something all right um so essentially we've heard pretty much everything we had three issues out or not issues but three three things to talk about one was the uh the mailboxes there's two mailboxes one at the South entrance one at the northern one and Terry Reynolds has a detail excuse me a detail of that showing the turnout for like approximately 40 foot turn out so you can stack two cars while they get their mail and that's on one of the one of the sheets that I sent to you John the other one was the U the phasing we've redone the phasing so that we have phase one phase two as they were phase three will now come across and continue out back out to Mort Vining so that the as the phase comes along the third phase will finish the road coming out so you're not stuck with a long terminated and then phase four would be the other por of uh right there's only going to be one way in and out one way in and out until phase three is complete well yeah we're gon we're gonna have a temporary turn around I was getting to the next it jumped me a little bit the uh the next one is the uh the sistern all right so the sistern has been Ed with Terry Reynolds and fire chief I guess have come to an agreement as to where it's going to be located it's located such that it'll be on the backside of vir Lane so it can service the whole subdivision um and what we will do is for phase one he was going to build the road and come up to the sstn and put a temporary CLD sag in so that you can come up and turn around Emergency Equipment can get in turn around and do what they have to do can you show us on the map just see thank you so phase one is right here phase two comes up wraps around Stellar phase three then comes in from here out down around and back up and phase four is this section over here the sister is going to be between on is it on poter where the poter is anyway yeah got you backed up right and so the uh turn around will be right in here so that every comes in we also have these would be built back too so you're really only going to have this portion that would be unbuilt who's the mailbox going to be one mail box is going to be right here where they turn out for it and then the other one is over here so and the construction going to start down this side so this mailbox won't be needed until AAS three that's two-way traffic okay so you're gonna have you will not have anybody moving into phase one or phase two until the road is built to the sister right right okay that's I'm sure the fire chief would make that that's the intent than okay so that takes care of the mailboxes sister the turnaround and then like I said phase three will continue all the way out um and I think I think that satisfies what you guys were concerned about the next is the open space and we've talked about where we're at with the open space and the suggested formula is 10% as you all know we're at 8.56% one and a half% lower than what we needed but the difference with our open space concept is that it's actually a a usable one it's going to be located centrally in within the development so the people within the development will actually be able to utilize it enjoy this one over here on the south side is the largest one and then this is the other one have an axis coming in over the drainage e and this portion here so there a Sentry located open air open space so these folks here walking the dogs can walk around they can meet with each other they can socialize within here as opposed to having some wooded area that most most homeowners aren't even go into so we believe this is a more functional usable open space area even though it's just a little micr bit below your 10% who's going to maintain these areas the HOA yeah yes did they know um I would assume that becomes part of the because they're both part of the storm water basins so the HOA is going to own those as well and the basins are not going to be these ugly things they're they're going to be seated with different types of plants so they'll be they'll contribute to the open air uh environment for the uh for the residents is there a diagram of how you're um s plan of how you're designing the open space they Landscaping PL for how that's being done uh in here no actually but it's I don't know what exists there currently you better remember detention Basin here the detention Basin here this is all actually naturally open area now and this is all this is in a natural state right as it is until we start putting in the detention Bas and so there shrubs and everything else and the uh not forested thing it's open by its natural state this area is going to have some work we're going to have a drainage uh connection coming into here this will be open and this itself is not extremely wood it's open so we're not really intending on turning this into a law it's an open air mean it could be I suppose if the home owners want to do that there could be a sign saying like open space or recreational area or something like on every other subdivision that has open space will be properly noted yeah was being factious I wasn't you weren't sure I mean as part of the uh conditional approval you could request a landscape plan that show us what the Open Spaces are going to be today so is it is the 8 point whatever percent yeah coming from those two spots yes well actually there's a little bit extra over here there's this third little detention Basin here with this space right in there that is also but the only open spaces are where the detention basins are correct and are the detention basins going to be F in um no you're not shown that if I can I speak to the Basin I didn't know you were on thank you yeah the they're they're bio retention basins rain Gardens and so there'll be a basically a a wildflower Meadow mix that's planted in them um and so they they have a special media that's put into them that is designed specifically to enhance growth of that that sort of stuff um and so these basins will will basically they'll be allowed to grow throughout the year so you'll have like a meadow you know Wildflower Meadow throughout the year and then in the late fall after everything goes to seed that gets knocked down um and so that it come back up in the spring uh it is a perennial mix and they'll continue they may need some maintenance uh to get desired flowers in there perhaps um that can be done with plugs uh following the first couple years um and that that'll be an ongoing process that would be up to the association to to do um these basins you know we will need to have uh annual maintenance um and so they they will not grow up into a little Woodland area or anything like that they are generally dry they will they will fully drain within a day um so that you know if people wanted to walk in there they can it's not an area that we would have Machinery or anything like that because we don't want it compacted uh but it it certainly will be an attractive area that people can you know spend spend time and and uh you know be out in the basically open air so are they level are they level with the remainder of that area or is it they are Level within the Basin the Basin bottom is level the BMS outside are are fairly minimal they're they're I believe about three maybe four feet at the tallest um you know it depends on on the area you can you can see the grading um the central one I think is 4 feet tall on the highest part so the willow will not be fenced in no these will not be fenced there's no need to fence them they're not deep like I said they're centrally located so people can actually use them as opposed to yeah I mean theoretically I'm not sure walking around in a four foot hole is well that's just that's just part of it that's not the whole thing that's just that's just part of it and it adds to the uh the the natural look of it with the with the rain Garden look it's and it's not going to be like Terry said it's not going to be a pond it's just a rain Garden which will hold water for a day or two and then it dries up it the these will generally never never be full of water they'll only be holding water on really large rain events um the one you have up John what one is that this is the great I had gotta this is the like Li a great and maybe I'm Miss maybe this is just nebor this one seems to be showing a property where that where you would come off of the road to go to that DET there's a drainage ement there and the access to it will be over the drainage eement we did not include the drainage ement in the area ofation and the Wetland relocation replication area is not no that's not part of it right I guess just visually it's see this at 8% but maybe second mutation P does that come off the original first road it go across the whole thing say that again talk about this yes the drainage here right will have the that's where the access to this will be where's po line on the other end property line on the other end is on the road right here okay it's its own lot and this lot is about 70,000 square feet okay they're not just small little so behind that is another lot behind it this is this okay yeah okay that's why I'm you know what you got to try to keep in mind is this it's all small on paper but it's it's a 76 acre parcel with 27 Lots so it's not being overburdened by any means it's a nice a nice spot the open space I mean uh there's been discussions about who actually uses the open space and some of these subdivisions and most homeowners are content with their yard they're not going to go out in the wood draping out in the woods you would I would but some other people probably won't go out in the woods they're just going to stay in their yard this scenario here gives them an area that's centrally located easy to get to when they're out walking around and I think this would actually get more intended use out of the open space concept than what some of the other things are intend personally but I mean just roughly looking at that at least half of that I would say it's going to be the Basin but the you're picturing a basin with deep walls and coming in this is a rainu it's it's a yes it's a base and yes performs like a basent but it's not going to be a pond it's not going to be a but it's not like I understand and it's the question become I mean whether it being open space and being retained as open space in and of itself is good that may be enough but the idea that it's going to be usable to me doesn't seem when when you're jump to that it's going to be usable that does not seem realistic to me when you're talking about and I get it's not a basin that's 10 ft deep but it's still four feet feet filled with wild flowers I don't think people are walking through and using that area that is a that is a detention Bas Pur whatever you want to call it I mean I just don't think it's being used for the purpose of these regulations open space is land that is usable for passive or active Recreation duties I I'm not gonna argue about what I'm I'm not saying that it doesn't necessarily meet the definition I think that's we can talk about that but what I'm saying is you're talking about it being usable and I'm not sure I'm going down that path with you that this is so there are subdivisions in town that have narrow strips of land that you're supposed to walk along to get to the open space area is that usable is that any more usable than what we had also means that I that because someone somewhere along the line allowed that in a in a subdivision in town we have to now do that going forward and I don't buy that argument either well until the regulation changes I mean it's it's kind of a precedent oh no I mean but but in reality I if you seriously look at what this is as opposed to what some of these other this actually has more potential to have actual people walking on it and enjoying it than a piece of of Woodland that nobody probably ever goes to so the concept of open spaces for the use and enjoyment of one fashion passive or active and this this is right in the center of the subdivision and I really believe people would go out walk their dogs walk around and get more use out of this yeah I mean um all right um any other changes that were um no not really so um any questions on the board just just to be clear the bents are not included in your % is that accurate they are they are they are not the Wetland not the wetlands or the Wetland replication but the basins are because they contribute to the open light and air and they're not going to be ugly holes in they're a rainard so they will have their own aesthetic value that will add to that um anything else I can hop into other comments if you guys want to think about some stuff um what do you think you look like you're thinking yeah I am thinking well let me go to town officials and public unless you got something right now no no I'm just trying to trying to Fathom it that you know you know one hand you're telling us that it's going to have a periodic time where there could be water in there um it may stay for a day or two if it decides or may decide to leave early um but counting that as an open space which is basically a low Bank ditch um with four feet of flowers in it and nobody's going to be cutting through that and playing in it or doing anything passively recreational in it um they can sit and enjoy it you know it's it's it's That's A Real Fine Line yeah I mean I'm not really buying it and it's you mean you talk about the precedent of things and I'm not sure I agree with that but you're you're basically asking us to allow people to just their detection Bas become open space I mean that's sort of what we're being asked to do is you can just take all the ATT base and areas and make those your open space and then you're good your open space is for playground Recreation I don't know because it's the the the regulation says for playground or recognation purposes or for providing light and air providing light it says or providing light and air doesn't necessarily mean Recreations go ahead go ahead Terry Steve can you tell me what is the what is the if you take out the basins what do you end up with that uh three or 4% um it was 7.29% which is I mean 10% is a suggested formula it's not a you shall have 10% it's a suggestion so without the basins were at 7.29% 5 and a half plus acres so those basins just put it into uh squared footage for me so that I can think of it that way uh if you have it if you don't that's fine but what's your your total 8 point whatever percent right is how many square fo again you don't no no you don't have I mean if you don't have it don't that's fine I'm not asking you to do math here because I certainly wouldn't want to be asked to do math here but I I just am trying to visualize it in my head when I look at this plan the idea that those detentions are only one point something percent of those that that doesn't sit that doesn't quite visually look right to me especially when you're taking out that wetlands area um it just I'm not saying it's wrong I'm just saying visually doesn't look that way at 5.5 Acres or 7.26 so you got 242,656 foot lot with the Basin in the center there how much of that square footage is that Basin uh or how much I mean that's what don't I mean that's gotta be it's all 50% it's again without the basins we're at 7.3% without the basins of your total but what's if it's 70 if it's 70,000 square feet for that lot yeah how many square feet is the Basin including the banks that come up to the to where it's going to be lost uh I don't have that in front of me okay but that was part of the that's all right if you can check on that and get back to me that's fine is that calculation is that open space calculation on one of these um plan documents yeah can you pull that up for me I may not be in the detail that I want to maybe it wasn't maybe it was in the U in the comments no I mean I had it on the worksheet but I didn't bring that with me and I I know it's [Music] on it's large which is the large the one is bigger than the other one overall the definitive [Music] plan I can't is that the large one the phing plan phase one yeah this one we have 3.72 Acres of open space I can't I'm going for I don't know if it's on the other one [Music] 15,000 so yes 15,000 yeah I've got that I've got that middle base in at about 18,000 Square fet to the top of the burm so 18,000 square feet for that burn for that basin so all right so if I'm looking at this I'm seeing you're counting the whole 75,000 Square F feet and as one open space you're counting 3.72 Acres which is uh 150 or so so 225 then you have another 25 so that's 250 250,000 Square F feet which is roughly what I which is I mean it is and we don't have but we don't have the size of the Bas which Bas you just Terry just said 18,000 sare feet for the stormw 2 Basin uh I'm sorry 18,000 for the the central one Terry is that right yeah Y what about the others the other one bear with me a sec the other one to the top of the burm is 27 in change it would be in Phase One and yeah there's a third much smaller one that that right where it says 1700 square feet what's that there's a small smaller one too a third one yeah smaller one is that when it says 1700 square feet there is that b bottom yeah that's what I'm assuming yeah I mean out of these 18 and 27 are those the entire entire area or just the bottom no that that's to the top of the BM right so the bottom and and the inner slopes the L the little Basin is about 2800 square feet the Wetland in that storm water one lot you know you have to remember too that's that's a long narrow Wetland so it really doesn't uh eat up that much of the lot right um it's also those to be not you know the the wetlands themselves are they're a wet Meadow so they're really only wet in the spring um so like this right now everything's pretty well I don't know where it is right now with all the rain but this time of year and into July August it's usually dried up one thing you can count on about the wedding weather these days is you can't count on the weather these days you I mean it it it is a wetland there's no you know it is what it is yeah it is and it's a count and it's a CED for in the in those calculations all right um any other uh comments on the board what's that lot like is it do you have a topographic image of that lot yeah there's a the existing conditions and that was I mean that lot that you're proposing for open space is that a flat lot or is it on the bank is it a hill that you're putting a hot spot into or is it it's rolling it's all walkable it's yeah it's it's not flat that that land out there is easy grade easy walking it's not not going up a mall or climbing a ledge okay uh any other board questions uh any Town official have any questions or comments good afternoon evening um just a couple things on the sisters U this has been an ongoing project in discussion that John and I have been having probably since the beginning of Spring last year and with this Development coming up kind of put a little bit more Spotlight on it so I met with John and also with Terry for this project specifically Terry did a nice job of laying out um exactly what the system was going to be we a little bit of back and forth on the size and its function within this community and the guideline that we're putting together right now is based on National Fire Protection Association U chapters 1141 and 1142 um NFPA historically um contradicts itself from one page to the next so it's very hard to get a clear formula on what works okay so that does give the authority having jurisdiction a little bit of leeway on what to do so based on a couple of other professional Industries and other colleagues I you could come up with a reasonable byw guideline we'll follow the guideline now um I would like very much for someday for this to be adopted by planning so that it's in for all the subdivisions and things like that U but going forward we're using based on some pth practices I don't want to call them precedent because the pth practices where any lot development or subdivision with five wats or more would require a sistern um and that certainly something that you for obvious reason C to be in play um this being a larger development there was talk of what the capacity ultimately needed to be I think we landed on the 30,000 gallon single tank fber glass on the ground with certain specifications that teres are wear of and drawns to wear of are accomplishable and and you know will serve the purpose nicely um the only major concern they have in this particular development is when we start to look at the phases and how everything comes together so we talked specifically about that what phase moment look like um just to kind of address your concern as well too about when does the permit so the system goes in it gets our approval and then a building permit could be issued so subdivision per is one thing but the minute we start construction and that's kind of the industry standard now if they're building a commercial building the minute the foundation done and you start to come up out the ground we would need to have a building permit and sprinkle or Fire Protection in place in this case it would be the system so they want to put foundations in the ground okay but the minute they start to construct so minute pretty much the pools and wood come come out that's pretty much when we have to have that protection um so the design that we've worked on is is certainly going to cover everything the paving of the road is kind of something that's been in the back of my head since we met about what that really needs to look like in the maintenance so our guideline doesn't address the maintenance specifically about the roadway and things like that but there would need to be something that would say the developer would ultimately be responsible once the phases are started to maintain the road the road would need to be large enough in in design width as well as turnarounds but also in substrate to support fire apparatus so a gravel road let's say really wouldn't do the job only because of the weather conditions that you all refer to you know it's one thing to have some rains in the summertime it's another to have a lot of snow melt in March and you just have roads that are unbelivable by heavy apparatus so we just want to make sure that that's addressed and that something that's built into whatever the subdivision perint it looks like certainly working with Randy on a couple of other things in the past we've talked a little bit about what that road would be to look like um areas where the sistern itself is located what the turnarounds would need to look like what the access to that would look like and I think once the second phase is completed the third phase I guess is when the roads you know the loop is created that's ultimately the best um but again whether or not that's paved with just a binder versus a finish coat or whatever else um if there's you know payement goes down and then some utility work needs to be done that's understandable but that's my only concern moving forward is where we are with the phasis how this is baced out and what that road would look like as well as maintenance once the development is completed um some type of regulation in writing somebody signs off that the homeowners association or their Hired Gun would be responsible to maintain the systs um what the town doesn't want the fir Department doesn't want is the responsibility of maintaining the systems okay because it's a it's one thing to make sure there's water in it it's another to make sure that it's functioning as designed doesn't have fracture doesn't have you know a difficult you know a break in the pipe where we can't create a draft and the water out of it like itos so on design when we look at what the NFPA standard says and recommends for the design and what we're trying to apply in our guideline is great but it does need to be maintained and I just want to give an example of how important this could be when I was in Grand fire we had a subdivision that had an entire sister system put in place it was uh either two or three concrete vessels underground had a monitoring system with a blue flashing light and all the bells and whistles the Home Owners Association thought it had been taken care of by the Builder the Builder thought the Home Owners Association had taken over the blue light flash for about seven months then the Bold burnt out the alarm system was supposed to be calling alerting somebody was never connected and it was never filling because they assumed the fire department was going to fill it we told them at that time that that wasn't going to be the case so we just want to prevent anything like that from happening so they just needs to be that ultimate jurisdiction of who's who's responsible once the Project's done and once we approve the actual sister installation itself so that it could be filled um the fire department we help them filling it the first time if that was a concern um it's Town water that's what would be bringing there it' be clean Town water but after that we just want to make sure that there's U some something got something in check to make sure that these are there inspections on those so sorry we talk if there's monitoring in it there really wouldn't need to be a requirement for inspections um basically if the vessels holding water you know outside of hydrostatically testing it which you don't want to do anyway they have to make an assumption that it's fine but if somebody notices that every 3 months we got to go and put 10,000 gallons in this thing canly have a problem it's not like the protection for other underground vessels so if you take a gas tank let's say with SH out that has v root monitoring and intertial pressure space monitoring and very Tech these don't get into that this is why we have a post indicator that tells us what the level is on it and hopefully that's working as well too but the best inspection literally is to pop the lid and Sandwich Water really in there because even the gas stations don't trust the electronics they dig the dip stick and make sure it's the right amount that's in there so something like that and something you can probably make a business out of the northeast of just checking systs all day long to make sure they're holding water but right now another side drop for for Dr all right um so that that's pretty much what I have and I think that um we discuss an awful lot about this in a construction standpoint no problems with what's been proposed in this particular development going forward the location is good the size is good and again the only concern the major concern I have would be access to that as we face conru I mean in my head it's the same issue with like open space and things like that which is you're all on dice on whether there's even going to be a homework Association and whether they're going to maintain it and so you know is there something that you would want built in in some way to allow either it's you know annual reporting that it's it's maintained or something at least ensure that when you if you had the head out there that there's water there the only thing I can compare to this it's a good question but there really isn't anything in place right now we required with the building department that fire launch systems and springco systems be tested annually and we get a report so I think it would be probably prudent to do the same thing here say each you know each year somebody's getting a report and maybe something with the town requires the others are required in building CES andir this is not the system and we talked a lot about this who actually owns the system with it in the gra you know does it become part of the property when the town adopts the road or you know we I want to make it clear fire department doesn't want any responsibility for the maintenance right nor should the town because it's a big expense and it's something that we're not pledging for and certainly is not something that you know we're even staff to take care of you know main there's not a lot of Maintenance but I don't want have to be the one has to go out there and shovel it every all right than any question thank all right uh any other Town officials have anything okay um any uh public comments or questions all right um last chance with the board okay um my thinking with new information and new plans is to sort of leave it open in case a question pops up as we look at it over the next um you know before the next meeting but the intention would be simply to um absent any popping up close the meeting at the next one but also in the meantime prepare a written decision so we can vote on it discuss it and vote on it at the next meeting okay um yeah um so I I mean I just I in in frankly it's for everybody's benefit right because if we have if we think about the these issues and have some suggestion to you if it's a we can't really have that discussion if the if the hearing is closed already so I just want no I understand no I'm you know we were hoping to not kick just down the road again but here we are it's it's it's six of one half dozen or the other because and you know we are going to be whether we we are not voting on it tonight yes one way or the other right because we we need to have a written decision in front of us that we're reading and voting uh that's been sort of the the advice of council um uh and so uh you know it's it really doesn't matter as far as the vote um is is the plan is and we've done this a number of times the plan would be to graft something up in the meantime you know obviously if something changes we'd have to tweak The Tweak the decision you know um but we do that at the next meeting so can I ask is the is there only one hangup for everybody on this I mean I you know there's I I got to go back and look at the waivers again um and just make sure that I was okay with all of those I haven't looked at those in a in a little bit um so um uh plus the open space is the biggest one I mean I do got to think about I mean I like cutting you know facing that the way it's done but I mean how long is that if if this stops after phase two how long of a row do you have how long of a cus act do you now have I me it's still pretty significant yes but there would be two other Cy sacks to turn around at so you're actually your deadend little space would be the the hang the dangling participle but you'd have two other Cy sacks there that would facilitate yeah think it's around though I mean you still I'm just yeah but the intent is to build a thing and if something goes sideways at least it's not one continuous dead end half you know halfway around so but I don't know you make your decisions based on failure I think you make your decision based on what's presented and and the uh the viability of the agree with that I think we actually have to consider what happens and what the security is for that part I get but yeah um and so I mean there's a real there's a there's a at least little chance that this could get developed and end up to be a very long poac that ends after phase two I mean that's that's that's at least a possibility I'm not saying it's a likely possibility I'm just saying it's a possibility that we need to brought it back a very very long uh C act to a less Long C act so um it's just I mean there's a there's I don't know in my mind there's a few things that I just need to go over and it's straighten my head and um like I said I think that's a good reason to leave it open because it allows the interaction if there are some questions that might hang us up rather than leave it up to us to impose the conditions and you can take them if you want them or you can yeah understood yeah so okay um all right so I would entertain a motion to continue this to July 15 16 16 we have a s appointment at the moment but I expect that to be continued for 662 right all right so we'll put this at 75 what we had uh goe motion to continue this to 7:15 p.m on July 16 Dave Spa sub moved three C second roll call vote Michael I Dave David I just th and I okay all right enjoy your SP thank you got a good St okay Mr K thank you for coming tonight thank you uh we're at the discussion consultant comprehensive zoning review by the TVC how are you I'm well how's the board good to see you all so I wanted to let you know that we have made it to print um and I will be um handing over the master plan um to John probably by the end of the week so yeah I'm excited for that um and excited for the town to have that to working on implementation right um so we're here to talk about the comprehensive B uh bylaw zoning review and so what typically happens um during this process is really taking a look at your Gua I will say that I love this stuff so I I like marking things up and then making notes and circling things and flagging things for future reference um as John said typically what follows after this review is an opportunity to actually work on refining it um you know I think as you read through this document identifying that the first strategy or first action here would be to reorganize and reformat the B um to some extent I think that there's some um benefit to reorganizing for the purposes of um readability in the bylaw um and so with that said uh the report here goes through um explaining what the process looks looks at and the criteria that I use and staff uses for evaluating and commenting on a zoning bylaw bylaw structure and format ease of access and navigability Clarity of language and presentation internal conflicts and inconsistencies obsolete or missing Provisions updates to implement recently completed plans if any you have your master plan Provisions that need to be updated to conform with mgl chapter 48 and judicial decisions and policy level updates to implement recent completed plans and town initiatives like I said sometimes your community plans will offer actions and strategies to explore um if uh the planning board is taking the lead on any sort of zoning bylaw or map amendments so with that said um the report follows to to address um those particular issues like I said um the the master plan being adopted earlier this year identified some recommendations as to how to look at zoning um and maybe looking at your current zoning and seeing if there are any amendments to follow encouraging development of a more walkable and liberable Town Center Town Center was a component of the master plan um allowing new housing options that are affordable and attractive to all ages and household configurations including making progress towards the Mass General Law chapter 40b goal of 10% housing stock affordability evaluating the current zoning bylaw with an eye towards improving long-term economic viability and sustainability in town that's kind of like your smart growth Concepts uh density where it makes sense uh Etc uh maintaining open space and natural resources I think if you look at the um uh open space and natural resources section there's a lot of of um particular strategies in the master plan with regards to ensuring that the osrp your open space and recreational plan and some of those other plans where you identify Parcels to acquire for open space and to preserve perpetuity um are just you know maintained and and that those are um part of your thought process and creating safe and improved nonmotorized Transportation opportunities and Transit options so with that said I think um with an eye towards um making sure things are uh you're identifying opportunities for green infrastructure um I know that in speaking with John um the planning board received a report from um your consultant doing the ms4 permitting and there were some lid uh low impact development and green infrastructure type strategies explored with that sometimes communities will take that and you know align it with any other larger zoning via amendments that are to occur during that time um presumably that may be something that the board may want to take a look at if um you get to move forward um so those those things related to um kind of the other moving pieces in town government with the access to the particular grants like green communities um and your MVP work um sometimes they you know uh require some some adoption of some um amended bylaws um I include or we include in this particular report how it conforms or how it relates to the um Regional land use plan Valley Vision so like I said I'm a regional planner but obviously my experience has been um in my You Know M many years of planning as a municipal planner so aw of the communities and their individual um approaches to how to look at development and preservation in their towns however I think with the extent that um you know there are there are issues that the Commonwealth face as well as the region faces that's um briefly discussed in Valley Vision how we promote Compact and mixed uses um so similar to you know maybe some of the ideas that were brought forward in the master plan um so with the state zoning act chapter 48 which all of you are familiar with um as as a planning board um just taking a a look to see how your bylaw conforms to what I call the section three which is the exemptions right oftentimes um applicants will come before the board particularly agricultural exemptions um that's not that doesn't require zoning I don't need a zoning approval for that Etc um so in addition to that um I'm sure the board may have contemplated in the past things like religious uses schools um those particular types of uses which are protected under section three um taking a look at those exemptions and seeing how they're address in your zoning byog I think the only thing that um I drew my eyes to was specific to um it's on page three it's the last sentence section 4 B1 states that large scale raising of poultry pigs hogs fur bearing or other farm animals require a special permit along with section 4 E2 implying that agriculturals uses could need a special permit so I think it's it's just a matter of how you administer that particular bylaw um if the if you are requiring folks depending on the size of their property coming before the board for any sort of protection um or permitting process where you're requiring a special permit for the keeping of those particular animals uh many communities that I work with oftentimes address this particularly if you're looking at properties that are less than five acres two acres actually um for like things like chickens um some towns have adopted chicken bylaws but um taking a look you know depending on and this is similar to the language that you see on your AG report after you submit a bylaw is like make sure you work with Town Council to make you know that this is administered correctly so presumably the intent is um you know is you've met the intent based on the way that the bylaw is currently written but it's just good to draw attention to that um I will say that this is a draft so obviously comments that come from you will finalize and and incorporate as appropriate um and the zoning review meetings um I typically include that because that may be part of the future conversation when we look at um if uh the town gets to work on actually looking at the bylaw and amending them if that's something that comes forward um technical review so again as I've outlined in the the front of the document um we took a look at the Z uh the zoning bylaw through these various various lenses structure and format being one of them we outlined that you that the town has adopted a bylaw that has eight eight seven um current articles um and you listed them there um I think one of the hardships in navigating your bow was um the use regulations I think that was probably the hardest one to na navigate if I recall that was 18523 um I have it open um that was where you have section yeah section four where you have after you were going sequentially in number numerical order and then you go to 185 d23.com how to um you know create some sequence that makes sense and also allow for um future amendments knowing that you've set now a standard and and your formatting um with regards to non-conforming uses um under article six which you currently have in general regulations best practice has been in other communities is that it gets its own section um that's a suggestion obviously you're navigating those permits as you need to um and you know the way it reads it's right it's um I think it's just a matter of where it appears um one one comment that typically comes up with a lot of communities uh is the section of definitions and you have a definition sections under article two however there are other bylaws which have definitions so um you know ensuring that they all live in one place and creating a mechanism of what that looks like is probably beneficial just to send folks to the definitions if there are questions related to them um and so um the suggestion on page five is um creating new uh articles one through nine which are specific to your purpose and Authority which um basically creates the power for the zoning bylaw districts including your overlays use regulations dimensional regulations non-conforming uses and structures General regulations this is where you're going to have your site plan considerations in your criteria speci special regulations where you may have um particular um things related to solar or um things that may be covered in your overlays uh your cannabis via uh Administration enforcement um and definitions um I think when reviewing the districts the only comment that I identified and I will remove the um registered mer medical and Recreation of marijuana I got some information from John regarding that the town recently passed that um so um removing that reference U makes sense here um but one of the I think things that I noticed with regards to um this particular section is is the last paragraph of that on page six which is um The Adult Entertainment District so there is you've identified that there is a district but there's no map um so the presumption is that typically you have some sort of boundary of where those are located the BW notes that adult entertainment uses shall be prohibited in all zoning districts except the industrial restricted Zone and may be permitted in any said District only upon the grant of a special permit by the planning board so um industrial restricted Zone you know is where you allow them and if someone were to come before the board you know um that's where you would allow them but I think it's just uh with regards to how it's presented as the adult entertainment District I think the implication is that maybe a boundary or places in town where you may allow that um with that said I um one of the comments to bring forward is your table of uses so you do a you do spell out the uses that are allowed per each underlying zoning uh the suggestion as I think as um I think all the community that I have worked with have um it's not it's not not unique um I've been work I've worked with communities not in Massachusetts that have listed the uses under their their use districts but I think it could be beneficial to have what you may be familiar with is a matrix of the the various zoning districts and the various types of uses and the permitting mechanisms that would allow you to get those permitted um so that I think is probably one of the um the loow hanging fruits I would say it's you already have listed uses under those particular districts putting them in a matrix makes things easier I think for navigating the B um and that refers to that um on page six when I talk about the navigation AIDS um the table of uses um use of Graphics can be found in dimensional regulations that can demonstrate how you measure items um particularly if you have um um I've seen signs I've seen um how you dictate where the Lots begin and end um there I think there are graphic tools that you can put into the dimensional regulation sections and as well as flowcharts which you know can also be aligned with any rules and regulations that the the board may have uh with regards to Clarity consistency um noted the flexible residential development District States that minor residential developments containing fewer than five acres of land may choose to pursue an FD or conventional zoning however subsection E2 states that the minimum land required for all flexible residential development shall be five acres and that this requirement applies to all FD projects um and as I mentioned before the enumeration of those particular um Wireless communication facilities and your solar bylaws just fell under a different new numeral uh format um after your FD district with regards to the procedures that the board employs when it's going uh going through a permitting process working with your town planner um what is expected in the submission what is the the board expecting um how does the board dictate their decisions uh are there a set of General conditions I think those are all question that arise and many boards treat them differently um with regards to your current site plan review process I think uh understanding that you may have a uniform set of subm submission requirements and approval criteria applying in all districts I think the way that I've navigated them is based on the the bi the section of the bylaw that is required particular to special regulations there are different types of submissions um and that's okay I think I think it just could be clear within a general site plan um section specifying the time frames for review and decisions per state law and adding provision before preliminary site plan review as an option um some communities do that it's something that um for towns that don't have a planner uh is an option um boards sometimes will put on the agenda a disc like discussion with a presumed applicant um and I know I think boards have different perspectives on that um but with that said that you know that is something that has been recommended and you know there there are examples of it here in um the pineer valley um it's caught of thought I mean it gets put into a vience as a process correct I mean we do it informally at times someone wants to discuss yeah projects but and I think yeah and I think that can is probably the practice of most communities but I know that there are communities that either can put a fee attached to it and a payer trayal attached to that um special permit procedur should be updated to express expressly require the planning board to make findings that the use meets the General special permit criteria currently some of this language is only in certain District sections include reference to statutory notice hearing and decision time frames um sometimes that's either in the bylaw or in a of rules and regulations and then uh revise section 185 this is like the minutia 185 d8 to state that the period of time after which a special permit will elapse will not include time required to pursue or wait the determination of an appeal um variance procedures are not specified in the current bylaw other bylaws that I've worked with um they do describe a variance procedure and what the power of the zone or appeals um um you know I think many communities know what the variance procedures are based on 48 um but whether or not it it belongs in your bylaw I think it's just a consideration um the first bullet is another one that um we'll remove after speaking with John with regards to Airbnb um and your short-term rentals um as I mentioned uh the table of uses are missing uses that are explicitly included as permitted uses in the zoning bylaw um table of uses should be updated to include all of the uses along with the zoning districts so doing this permit Matrix um which would describe the use the zoning District it's allowed and the permitting mechanism to get to that approval um so I included this because I think there are a lot of communities interacting with the the AG's office with regards to solar and batteries um it's like every Community I'm seeing is like getting challenged by the AG's office um with regards to permitting the um uh the solar and what I'll say is if you have the if you've had the approval it's when you're amending it that you may need to take a look at it um because that will reopen you know and they may have a different perspective I don't know um I think that's been the experienced towns have reopened their solar bylaw to amend it to make them to make them further restrictive um and to some extent or prohibit batteries altogether batteries are and considered and allowed and me sing you cannot prohibit um that's being challenged all over um the Pioneer Valley at the moment um so taking a look at Large Scale um TVs and batteries um electric vehicle charging stations are not currently addressing the bylaw um some bylaws have adopted that there are some model um bylaws that that are out there um with regards to missing topics we include this as these are what we're seeing in other communities um a discussion especially with regards to housing um inclusionary zoning is a tool that some communities have adopted as well as Village Center zoning which you know has been identified in your master plan as um to create and understand you know there maybe areas of tongue where it could be denser you create standards and criteria for development in those areas so let me just ask you quickly about that but we did do that I don't know how many years ago there was that report we we we took it up at a public hearing and we're debating doing a town center district and really what we came down to was that the mixed use was the biggest aspect of it and what we considered to be the quote unquote District was basically the business restricted Zone on College Highway and so we just added mixed use to the BR Zone which effectively covered what we wanted to town you know vill you know sure Center District to be okay um you know but I mean and part of it was also we were starting to move away from having these overla I mean they started to ramp up and it's like okay we gotta pull back because there's too many of them um so you know that was the other part of it is we can incorporate it into an existing District let's do that rather than and I think that's that's fair and I think maybe this should be um refined a little bit to reflect that the there was an intent to create some sort of Village Center type zoning however maybe taking a look and seeing what's working you know what types of criteria need to be amended um so that yeah so that you know there there could be that analysis of how to make those particular zones work better and it may still be that it that it gets narrow the district is they it narrow yeah and you can also have special permits versus you know change the types of uses that would be allowed in that zone um especially if you want to just rely on a a regular use Zone rather than an overlay um you know maybe a mixed use building versus a multif family building would be treated differently um and those could be codified as criteria um so one of the other things that we do in the um zoning byw review is a a review of exclusionary zoning language and you know this I think is reflected with um some of the the conversations with regards to accessibilities um and for housing particularly um so the bylaw language was examined showing where and how exclusionary zoning Concepts could have been codified in looking at single family residential districts the ab ability to develop multif family residential units does the T make it easy does it you know create difficulty minimum lot sizes restrictions to size and number of bedrooms and apartments ability to develop accessory dwelling units and parking requirements for new housing units um so those are the particular bylaw components that we took a look at um reflecting on other towns that have changed their bylaw to create ease of Permitting for housing particularly um with regards to to the ability to develop multif family residential units you know stating here that the town permits to family dwellings in all residential zoning districts although the minimum lot size uh for two family dwelling units is 50% larger than the same requirement for single family dwellings so understanding that is there a way to to contemplate or think um if maybe the town you know could consider uh less uh you know a smaller left siiz forty family um and what types of consideration and what types of criteria the town would be okay with adopting um so general purpose multif family dwellings are only allowed in the r20a district with approval of a special permit and multif family dwellings exclusively for exclusively for the elderly and or handicapped are allowed in the r20b multi family dwellings may not con contain more than six six dwelling units per acre there's also a general maximum requirement of not more than 12 dwelling units in an apartment building um so you know it's just understanding that those are in your current zoning bylaw and if housing production is something that the town is looking at looking at those particular criteria to be of of help um with regards to minimum lot size you are aware of your minimum lot sizes so just spell that out there um restrictions to size and number of bedrooms in apartment um again this is based on the language of your current zoning um I think with the understanding that um there are requirements for sizes of of apartments May uh deter um multif Family dwellings being built in town um ability to develop accessory dwelling units I think when I remember talking through this with the in the zoning and when we were talking about the master plan really trying to understand a permitting mechanism if there is any um for accessory dwelling units some towns have codified this some towns have allow the building department to figure that out um I know every Community is different but understanding that um creating a legal pathway that oftentimes includes the planning board as the entity that would review accessory dwelling units could be helpful um with that said um if you're if you're following the current uh legislation the um ability to develop accessory dwelling units is something in the current housing Bond Bill and that will be basically a permitted use for all communi um and then parking requirements and I think towns often take a look at those from time to time but obviously the parking requirements can deter Housing Development depending on um how much your parking you're requiring understanding that not everyone drives a car um and you know some communities really love their parking that's okay um so with recommendations as I mentioned um reorganizing and reforming the bylaw her suggested outline in appendix a so you see in appendix a there is an outline of your current bylaw which presumably could be um um designed a way that reflected this new outline um updating the town's bylaw zoning uh table of uses creating consistent site plan review standards across all of the zones uh revising and or removing overlay District that regulate allowed use of I think to some extent Mike you were talking about their overlay districts and taking a look at them to really understand how currently they're being used how the town is allowing folks to use overlay District could be you know helpful um taking a look at the Smart growth Community checklist as I mentioned the regional land use plan offers um various tools for smart growth infill development um you know creating uh opportunities to open space residential development taking a look at those particulars codifying adus um will reflect this number seven to say that um basically to take another look at your current business restricted Zone what you allow um there could be an opportunity there to um refine that section to um maybe um create some momentum for development in the Village Center provide low impact development standards again um you know the town has a current existing storm water regulation bylaw as as um you all are aware the ms4 permit required the town to um provide opportunities for uh regulatory amendments um and so I know that list exists because I'm familiar as a lot of other communities the ms4 communities or um get those um taking a look at your subdivision rules and regulations I know that John has uh suggested that for your grants and then this one I threw in there because oftentimes um and you probably know better as far as your Vistas your Scenic Vistas what that may you know how to protect them uh does the town have roads I was trying to look quickly through and does the planning board oversee a priting process for that as far as cutting trees you do uh well te yes with in conjunction with the tree board right okay okay great so um that is the draft report for the board um if the board has any comments or suggestions to include what typically happens is there are for some of these zoning um changes there are some um appendix items and materials that will include with the report they're kind of just like model explanations Etc I think the most important thing take since we make sure that the current this by are yeah that yeah that is a take you can't go on I mean online right I mean you can't go online I'm just looking right now only by telephone and correct personal service you know what's actually on the books so we need to figure that out um get okay if I can just add one quick comment um and the board SE get to explored a little further perhaps something in here um can you have to pressure my memory where we saw or discuss some of that language about op space uh subdivisions in some cases is moving towards making that the five right if you will option and that uh well we were talking about the sub Vision there's a conventional one for us now I think that perhaps was a point to least consideration that the board became aware of when that application came forward the idea is to try to encourage the open space subdivision um so the board's SE spit or re or doesn't we call it discussion at all then so be it I want to just raise it right now as as part of this so we'd have an opportunity to turn that that discussion I think that's great a great idea I think a lot of communities are looking that as looking at that as trying to figure out how to get developers if they're still developing subdivisions how to develop it in that way um p PC provided uh uh did a Model um by law back in 2021 um the town of Hatfield is currently adopted it so I'm waiting to see what the A's offic says regarding that um but yeah so they adopted it um the PPT model for that um and I'm happy to share that and that I think that's useful tool anything from the board next thank you good night you too it's been lovely to work with the board I hope that we have an opportunity again we're gonna need a lot of help doing all this homework uh F College Highway okay application for 215 College Highway is to replace existing signage at the CBS Pharmacy um and this is a wholesale replacement uh fundamentally we are seeing some minor logo changes the idea is that we're looking at not only a net decrease in the square footage of the signage at this property um but also removal in some cases so I think one of these uh indications for photo Services which is no longer say a promoted it's probably a lost leader anything right um but uh let's just here I'll show you what they're proposing you know all look generally familiar uh over at the drivethru they're going from these individual letters um to if you will a single panel uh but it was confirmed for me that light only emanates from the letters themselves so while that square footage figure has to be me meas at the panel itself uh essentially that aluminated area I would call it a wash one for the uh on the original approval sign signage approval for this development uh was noted that signage was approved with the exception of the three standing signning from pending action um with the board of appeals I didn't look to see if anything was on record um recorded variance through land court or accounting to find it I've asked for it having said that much I'm not sure fundamentally what happened back in 2009 or if they simply move things a little bit and didn't get the the plan 45 things were constructive um so I only mention that now because the next John or the next guy working forlo signs is will run someone will run up against us in the future I've asked for a clarification on that point do we know what the variance request was that was it over sign in Jamal the location of the sign it's not entirely clear it's a little bit hard to discern from the from the from the file and signed PL so having said all that um assume the variance was for the structure and not you would think so we are we are working put interesting that they can put a square footage of the sign area itself don't know the answer to that it's tough it'd be hard to I think a numic um issue they could uh if it was saw now this is prior to the our current time our flowchart uh and bog was Rewritten in 2012 uh so forun the parameters easily on my fingertips um don't spell out quite precisely what they were looking to achieve and it's hard to tell if it was location to state right up by have so I I I say all that in the end this is replacement existing signage um look at the board indicate it and compli open comp in that the sign is existing and it rates the current standards Y and and they have the ability I forget where it is they have the ability to maintain and reface yes by current standard there there's there's excessive square footage correct design this sort of replace language okay um any questions from the board no okay um do I hear for a positive recommendation for the F replacement 25 Dave spov singer second I Dave I singer I David i j and I all right thank you very much uh one more [Music] quick easier to die okay the previous uh Sundance canning location and oh gosh this is over at delect corner I apologize for for getting even though reminded myself today of the name of that Plaza but it's the plaza behind McDonald's um one unit in there uh we've got in excess of 12 feet from grade to the beginning of the group they're proposing and the width of the unit is 25 ft rough figures you go 10 ft tall 25 ft wide you allow 10% of that 25 squ ft there at 28 or so which is well within the allowable figure at that in exis of 12 height which I was out there measuring today so a lovely new roof sign is proposed meet all the requirements requirements any questions from the board all right um do I hear a motion for a positive recommendation for 208 Highway Unit D dais moov sing a second Lo call vote Michael D i j i sing I David S i Jessica th I all right thanks very much 71 College Highway dve you get sure you thank you um I let you try um no I don't me we can just noral things um why don't you scroll down John that all up on the first page um we're all here so I'm to start by vo she use her name in lights last Revis in a April was it later that we double checking out this I believe the last material is received on but we did not have a May 9th meeting uh than so okay so maybe that was maybe just the discussion of it was after that okay got it that makes sense okay all right um all right anything to change on that is there a space there on chapter 185 oh gosh you have no idea how many Chas jumps right out of here it does great fantastic um anything else on this page okay go to page two oh yeah oh little bit cut out the yep no you're good just no no no just go just go back up and oh the first part is fine does anybody have any problem with the first two paragraphs there so yeah just go down to the findings and all there perfect um all right any um comment on the findings either general or special perit criteria um I'm take true um um all right anything with uh a 125 pretty straightforward okay um B1 through 4 um you yeah okay so um anybody have any issue I guess I'd say it this way anybody have any issue with the language in here who's like I I'm I'm not sure I agree with it but I'm not necessarily voting for it so I'm not gonna argue about what that's what the language change So Satisfied well I think so but does anybody have any who agrees with the sort of idea that um have any issue with the language here um so uh so we'll go on to five through whatever you and wait um just the highlights on the page before is that for a particular so that's where language was rather specific to the proposal and to the architectural guidelines I want make sure everybody took a moment to digest just want to make sure that the cyan highlight here is a followup to the version red alongside Mr Spina I want to make sure aware of the addition Okay so sorry 5 through 15 5 15 um anybody have any changes to 5 through 15 anything everybody good good okay 16 and 17 there do6 um anything on 16 or 17 no okay keep going um see one through n nine is eight one through eight how about one through eight at N9 and 10 anybody have any issue with nine or 10 no on to 114 11 through 24 we discuss the chucking TS how it you did yeah did we not it I see number 20 says F holding areas let see Tiny uh it's I don't believe it's refed um did you bit no I just think during normal hours normal hours maybe and put the next I we can just kind of talk about that let's keep that depending it and talk about it on the terms and conditions that's thank you okay um um all right anybody have anything else 3 24 25 through 27 there it's prettyy straight forward everybody good with that all right pretty upated all the things plans okay um we got one and two there which are pretty straight forward three four five all the same typical six seven 8 9 10 all standard um let me know if there any changes but uh so 11 and 12 why don't we hop down to 11 and 12 any changes with those do we want to have some sort of language that matches the applicant's proposal in regards to preserving and retaining the back piece as undeveloped not just not just that we're going to make it vegetated but we're going to keep it that way we're not g to in 10 years they're not going to come back in and turn that Meadow into a second building or whatever am I remembering that correctly yes Rob yes we use the term de restrict yes declare restriction on the Horseshoe open space to be incorporated in which in what man um they was declare a restriction on that portion of property uh Incorporated a d uh yeah will be yeah so if there was a condition we would have that recorded oh have a special permit recording yeah but also would be willing to declaration restriction oh okay oh Fair okay like a Cen yeah okay all right um that be the appropriate location yeah yes um I mean it can just be a sentence at the end that basically says theant sh by they can record it I believe it's good for three years what I've been by FKS conservation restri that goes through no no no not a conser I'm not thinking of conservation restriction that goes through um you know yeah like U I'm thinking more of a almost like you would with a subdivision right have a covenant have covenants that would apply in being be included in any deed right think it's essentially the same thing we have the template community species program that looks for folks that are developing ention of property and required to um maintain certain portion of the property open space so may maybe we just put it this maybe we'll just put um the applicant shall file a um a a reported well the applicant shall file or the applicant shall record um a document restricting um The Well vegetated open space to be permanent in a manner um approved by Town Council something does that work everybody Bo that that is my pay grade so that all right anything else on love for 12 12 all the way down does this prevent the applicant from deciding that they want to construct it without coming before us or just curious I get say here that we could ask them to do it if we find that the parking is problematic but if if we are if anybody is basing their approval on the retention of this open space and the limitation of parking do we have a mechanism that the developer then doesn't come back and decide oh we're going to just pave it and not let us know or question is that a question I would say that if they wanted to constructed they thank you on this one sorry job crash yeah I guess I read that a little bit when it says if needed is determined by the planning board right I mean I think that's the it could be clearer I suppose but that's where I sounds PR clear anything else okay um we uh toss in the comment about the unloading times or whatever you know when took about five minutes to right out my I didn't slow you down either is there proposed hours of [Music] operation I believe there was but you have as isn't that the common there is one but I'm not sure I know how it applies but I mean here's the I I don't see any Dollar Generals or any other retailer especially within our town opening prior to 8: am or closing after 10: p.m I mean right now they're all closed by 9:00 P p.m um and most delivery most truck drivers and me my brother works for Coca-Cola and would have to deliver here so they you know they do that not before the store opens and usually they are done delivering before you know rush hour traffic you you know you do those smaller type deliveries typically throughout regular operating business hours so me I think the business model here is that deliveries and stocking and all that occur within regular business hours they can not occur outside of open hours like that normal business establishment so so do you want to establish this business is operating hours or you just mention what I would say that that is typical but whatever whatever normal business hours for yeah and you want to spell that out I you frequent other retail locations right do you typically go shopping for retail prior to 8: a.m. or after 10: p.m. I know authority to shop you anybody else on the board with the authority to shop for their household having a Authority a big word that mean wife's approval don't make me text Michelle G take away my Amazon I mean I'm not sure we we necessarily put in hours for a business like this before I'm not sure to I mean I'm not sure it's gonna there there certainly could be businesses that you put in the hours I'm not sure this is no just turn normal business I think that just functions outside of the special okay anything else we're not putting that in I don't know lost traffic conversation that I think it goes without saying but if you would like to put something in there that states delivery should occur within normal operating business hours and that prevents deliveries occurring outside crazy hours as well as perhaps will help to eliminate the concern about stock being left out and in the open and whatnot so normal business hours that works I'm just want to say it out loud yeah conditioning reads Tru deliveries and trash removal services shall only take place during normal business yes um anything else I understand what the people want to do I like what they want to do but I don't know we've seen more than one or two people from this town who came here for the project we've seen a lot people propos project but nobody come in ra ra let's have it that's my concern we're here to support the people of town and I personally think if we vote this all these people in the audience are voting against it no but speaking against it they're they telling us they don't want it are we not listening any do you find it is only our job to listen to the public or to also follow the bylaws and right reasonable and legally defensible decisions well we also work for the public well no we pay or not but that's a that's a double edged vo just just to play Devil's Advocate that's a double-edged sword because you would say well where's the rest of that town to show up that didn't want you really can't say you can't read into it say who did who didn't come yeah I can okay you can um yeah I don't necessarily agree with dick on that I still like it did know um but I mean I guess my opinion hasn't change from the beginning which is I don't I see that area of College Highway as different in character fundamentally different in character than once you get to say Tannery um and the types of businesses that are there the sizes of the businesses it's different to me Mike I don't think J can hear I'm sorry let me I'm hiding over here and make sure you can hear um I can I hey we're all there I um I just see it as that's a different area of College Highway then once you get hit Tannery and you keep going I just I think in in character in size um I don't I I know there's been discussion about you know that there was zone changes for Winfield and zone changes for the American Inn but at the same time this piece of property was only acquired five or six years ago and so America you has been there for 20 years Winfield's been there for 15 years this this property was purchased knowing that's what surrounded it so I that argument doesn't mean much to me they knew what they were buying and and what was surrounding it so did the condo association not know what they were buying when they developed on College Highway the lone Soul commercial street that we have that rer town but if you want to go with that argument correct and if it was simply one thing maybe that would be the case but that whole area has changed in the way it is I mean that whole area is essentially residential now well I can I Just Disagree because I knew that this argument was coming so I I just kind of Google mapped it and said okay parcel by parcel we go dentist office whip City tool Five Star Transport two small single family homes a gas station a car dealership um small bit of open space and I think the water station yep small homes Windfield Circle Greens West but then you have rays and you have the brewery retail retail retail across the street lensky Brothers couple small family homes but then you have the huge development of The Villages a doctor's office The Hash House the already approved combo mixed use business residential Industrial Development that's going there and then you have our open space Farm we approved two buildings in the back that could be used for Industrials not but yes more not not not business not retailer right somewh hard use um so to say that the whole section is and then and then to say that below Tannery is somehow substantially different in that fact the parcels may be smaller but we still go business business business business house house business House business business business business House business business business house so are we are we looking to turn College Highway or or even this bardor section of it again understanding that we only have 7% of available land in town for commercial usage that our goal now is to turn this upper section residential and to eliminate some of our business zones but I think from say u u you know s in so up until Tannery the number of continued residences in that period in that area is probably less than the number of residences just on Windfield and so you have Windfield with the size of Windfield you have whatever the American name is called now The Villages um you have I mean that has sub and you have the greens that has substantially increased the amount of residential activity in that area yes it's not all residential but surrounding this property has turned turned substantially residential um even prior to when it was last P when it was purchased by the owner so I just I think it is a different character um and I think that is you know it's it's just different to me that area is different to me than when you hit Tanner but and so because that we were just talking about our master plan in the BR Zone and intention is to increase our mixed use so is it okay for mixed use for these residents but not okay for these residents I don't know especially when there's a mixed use development going in right across the street to me residential and business together that's what happens when you build on College Highway right but here's the difference to me is and this is consistent with the master plan which is that the encouragement was for small more local businesses to be developed in this town I think we have one I think especially around residences that is what would be more appropriate than something like this which would belong to me again once you get past canery would be more appropriate for something like this I don't think this parcel would be necessarily a small business startup type of parcel unless we continue denying things on it for the next 20 to 30 years and then it's going to be worth a lot less um I but also we have a number of small business locations with between Gillette Corner between the others there next to mobile we have small business units that we consistently see people moving in or moving out some people have been there for a long time this parcel is has been sitting here looking for the right development and many many developments of different types have come before it that were opposed by the residents that didn't Appeal on a number of different levels or weren't able to come to fruition because of the lack of funds and now we have an application that for all extents and purposes meets all the other requirements except for this nebulous character argument which we just heard from the PVC PC representative that we're not going forward we should probably try to look to eliminate that sort of fabulous based decisions and is that something that if you were to write this decision if you and one other person agree with you is that a legally defensible decision that you can write I think absolutely it also doesn't I mean the other part of it is and and Ken was just talking about it is you have this the design guidelines apply to this property I mean there's no there's no effort to comply with the design guidelines with the parking in this structure with the with the the building design with I mean there's no attempts that I don't that we asked them to change the building design and we floated the idea about the parking and then when challenged on it by the applicant on a couple of different angles I think most of us did end up concurring because of the loss of space because of location and and frankly as much as I understand the park behind aspect of a town center um when I'm driving down the road if I can't see a place to park I'ma not pulling in but then then why do we have the design guidelines they're just guidelines guidelines right I mean so they they don't used any back when that guideline came out there was a huge debate over that and the biggest part was the was the substantial up ticking cost you take and you spin a building around now you got to decorate two sides of the building because you don't want us you don't want to put the garbage toward the street so now they have to rehab the back of the building that nobody know only sees when it's facing the other way that was I remember that I was hearing that that was that was a huge bone of contention and and there was some on that panel that was going on when that happened that that was well oh well you had to abild you down and build a new one but they are they are guidelines they are guidelines but not a bylaw but they're still guidelines right and so I mean if they're not in any way if they're just ignored for each and every project that comes into Town they're utterly useless and I'm not sure saying it's bad or good I'm just stipulating what it was when it happened the other part about it to me I'm not I think they're more applicable once you get past caner and you have sidewalks there and you have things where it would make more sense to have parking lots in the back but again that's the argument it's different once you get to that area than it is back there so you can't use the lack of them apply applying the guidelines right if that's if you're not expecting them to ad to but that's but but that flips around you can't use the well they're the exact same thing if you're saying that they shouldn't be the design guidelines more applicable here right you can't have you can't do both so I agree with you but if you're saying that the whole thing is the same then to me they need to comply with the design guidelines don't they or at least make a good faith attempt to I think they did that it's not reasonable to put parking in the back or to do and by the way and just don't I mean I Rob knows that I have no issue with the what he did it I mean I think he did a hell of a job in sort of Designing this and presenting this and and took a lot of the discussion and comments into account and changed things um I have zero issue with 95% of it right it is simply just the idea that I just I see it differently in that area of of College Highway then I do once you get further along and and nothing I've sat and listened and with that focus and nothing has changed my feeling so I just is would then there be any application that comes in and I'm not asking you to create one out of your minds we don't like that exercise but if that's the Viewpoint that you have is any commercial business or any retailer that comes in going to not match the character of the neighborhood that you established for it for in your mind for yourself that then we are in effect removing the the zoning that this part particular use small business there you know with with residential on it I mean is that there's nothing wrong with that there that seemed like it fit pretty nicely there um I mean there's probably hundreds of different uses that could go in there and fit in there it's not solely residential in that area and it's a business restricted Zone I get that but the fact that it's a business restricted Zone doesn't mean you can put any business you want into it right but we are but retail is one of the prescribed okay put a Walmart there what a Walmart intensity of use and in that partiel be providing the same amount right so we're but we're so that's the intensity use right is we we've have we have other applications on our docket that take 10 pounds of sand trying to shove them into a five pound bag in this case we have a five pound bag and the applicant has said yo I'm willing to only put a pound of sand in here and give you two extra pounds of sand that nobody can ever put anything else on here I don't think another application with a by right per special permitting guidelines use is going to offer us the level of protection and buffer that we are currently giving to the residential components of this neighborhood and if we say no to this and another one comes in and fights us on it and doesn't offer up these protections I think it's going to be a lot uglier so I think this is actually pretty much the best application that we could get for this place yeah and I I just and again I don't I'm I have zero criticism over the way it was designed and the way it was protected I have applaud that but I just don't agree that that's the proper place for I just don't I haven't changed my mind can I can I just ask a question and know that this is a discussion among the bo what I'm so what I'm hearing is that there's a philosophical concern related to the zoning everything I've heard from from the chair is not sight specific and you just said it's not sight specific really is surprising to me that with your knowledge it seems to me that this is completely arbitrary zoning big picture and just don't Envision it there versus standards being met the sub the uh special permit standard being met literally having two of the last public hearings with no additional questions us agreeing to every cons uh every condition I would be at a loss I would literally be at a loss in a town that I business friendly I get it you know you don't Envision something in the north side of town but that's not specially permit criteria that's Z yeah but I just I I disagree with that idea I disagree that the fact that it's business restricted own means every single parcel that is business rried Z is exactly the same as exactly the same criteria because they are all unique in where they are located and you have to look at what abuts and what neighbors that those particular properties you're not looking at that BR zone property there and a br zone property you know down by um you know the post office or down by you know I mean they're not the same they're not they're not the same they're not identical you have to look at what's around that particular property it has to have some degree of specificity to the property by the bylaw I mean it does that's literally what it says I I think it's the first one in the special Department criteria is it not suly located in the neighborhood in which is proposed I mean it's and that's I mean that's that you have to take into account the neighboring properties and and that's so you you don't treat every single BR paral as identical it's just not the way at least I read the bylaws I think there is a difference and to me there's a difference so we have a site specific use on a a property that's zoned properly we need all of dimensional requirements we have no traffic issues we have no safety issues we have mass do and jurisdiction for those issues on the roadway we have a buffer that is heads and shoulders is above what's required we have a restriction that we're proposing on the subject property and we have a HJ arguably a hodgepodge of uses in the surrounding area many of which are well over the retail square footage or the commercial square footage of that building not to mention that the some of these residential uses power over you know if you look at the American differ I mean there's literally there's no consistency in that neighborhood and business restricted if you look sit specific at any of of these other sites so you would you would you would you probably couldn't make this work at I think this is this this works specifically on this site I'm telling it's if you guys which you have every right to do I'm sure they'll appeal it and I'm I'm telling you right now you might as well change your zoning and I said this I said this at previous meeting just change your zoning because because there's no point in having a special permit associated with a proposed use everybody that comes to town is going to say like we met all the rules we met all the requirements and then you get two members of the board that decide it's a you know it's a philosophical I don't feel it and then you're done I mean I I just so we should not take into account the fact that there's residences next to us no no we take that into account but we also take into account the residences built on College Highway that that there's you can't have the expectation that I built a house on College Highway as the same level of expectation as I built my house on Lexington Circle okay right so that but the person who purchases this property with all those residences around it has no so then if that if that's the case then when we as a board presented a zone change to town meeting for spotting of this and a spot here to allow for residences then this little parcel in between should have been changed over and instead what's happened is that these people and these people have imposed their will on this one particular parcel and when we had the last zone change request for it for a it was a multiple family use Zone it was too expensive we couldn't get it because it's a lot of money to hook up a resident's used to the commercial lines there on colge Highway why because it's meant to serve Commercial Business I just I I I don't think that the with all the the tally points that Rob mentioned that I were just Echoes of my own that a legally defensible decision hedging on the character argument of the neighborhood when you said that well you know a different retailer might be better well what kind of classism judgments are we making now on retailers that I'm talking about the it be because that be whether you mean it or to or not it comes up well this is a lower quality retailer that I just don't think fits this neighborhood whereas another retailer might I haven't said anything like that and you know I haven't said anything you don't think that that it comes across that way I don't care how it comes across well I'm trying to understand your argument and steal it out with you because if somebody else votes with you I'm not going to be the one writing the denial decision you know so I guess at some points and this is I think the the primary argument time a lot of what Ken said here tonight which is it's if you want to preserve areas or make areas into something you need at some point to start enforcing to have long-term chance at some point you do and so if you start if we're you're just going to put in any kind of business as long as it meets the the zoning requirements all the way down College Highway up until you get West and you're those are zoned be and you're going to they they are all are until you get to I mean I forget where it's done but they almost all of them are so you're going to put in any you know 10,000 15,000 20,000 sare foot property or building that could fit on those and have a little bit of leeway in the back all the way down to the Western Line if they want to sell you know wh City tool if they want to sell you know um whatever else down there and change it over something else who cares we don't care what that looks like well I I don't think that's fair either because we've been pretty hard pressed in making sure that it did look different and that there was both open space of a buffer and offense yeah and vegetative restoration I yeah I think we did take that site specific into account and yeah I I think the fundamental difference opinion sounds like I put words in your mouth is that you're thinking hey businesses in general it's overly residential down there it should be more No it should be it should be small business it should be mixed use there are certain types of of commercial uh proposals that I think would be appropriate on that one particular parcel which is now surrounded by residences in my mind I think small business is not necessarily owned by uh you know some resident in town or something that it's more of the scale of the operation and granted yes it's a corporation but the actual operation that's on this parcel if it weren't over owned by a corporation I think it's a mom and pop e be a mom and pop convenience to it just the fact that it happens to have a corporate parent I don't see much of any difference there yeah since this gentleman was able to speak don't no we're we're not gonna we're not this is not because none of this was was is evidence about you know for us to take into account I mean I do so if you have something to talk about with the specific bylaws which is why I think I I I sort of let Rob talk about the specific zoning district and bylaws because I think that helped with our discussion here I I don't mind that but if it's just simply a you know we don't agree with this going in there that's evidence that we really can't take into account at this point in time thank you very much okay George 38 I just want to mention the fact that I just want to mention the fact there are I don't know the exact number but there's probably around 250 residences residen within walking distance of the that's yeah sidewalks there's no no cross no that's fine I mean like I said if we're talking about bylaws specifically and that's the no I understand okay thank you yep I I don't so I I guess know I think it's fundamental difference or whatever but I mean there's there are businesses interre without with all the residences in that whole area correct for the most part they are smaller you know what you'd expect quote unquote local business of that you may need in that in a smaller I guess I draw sttion in the local part but look at the scale overall use size of building the efforts that all meant to make the architecture and everything the buffers everything to try to make it ason as possible within the area everything that I think could be done has been done yeah I just I don't I don't agree I just don't and I I can't say enough I I I think the efforts have been um you know well appreciated but I just like I can change the way that I look at that area of college high just has and it's not I mean I don't see how you don't let any one of those residences which is in a business restricted you know um or business restricted Parcels there turn into whatever business they want all the way down to the West Field line and to me that's not that character that area I don't know I mean from Westfield it literally goes a dentist off whip City tool festar transport two small family homes which on Google Earth it looked like one of them might be for sale uh a gas station and then a car dealership that is calling John asking to become mixed use so again it's commercial commercial commercial commercial commercial and then yes we do have a multiple number of residences but these are also multi-unit residences and multi-unit residence complexes whether they're apartment complexes condos of regular cost or higher cost condos or even over a certain age limit those are usually found adjacent to business areas and whether or not it's it's currently a safety uh thing that we can provide or that mass do wants to do in the about you know with walking and sidewalks I mean they don't want it anyway so single retail establishment over there no other than the convenience store attached to the gas station other than the right so other than the proposed ones that we've already approved not right and and Web City tool I mean it's it looks small from the front but it's a big building it's a big box and every single one that you've named there I believe has been there before the bot they've been there for years in years and Five Star Transportation when somebody develop the Z bylaws and I'm not one to be beholden to people and stuff they wrote in 1965 but this was identified as the area within this town that should provide for business opportunities so I don't agree that if you meet the definition of business you're allowed to go in there necessarily that's but it's not just allowed it's did you did you agree to change Your Design did you add an additional buffer did you agree to slide the parking lot over to make sure that you don't interrupt the shoddy workmanship of stuff that happened on an adjacent parcel like we've asked for things and we've gotten those things we didn't run up against a hard line and the person hasn't come in and been like well we can do this because we can do this because we're a business and we're going to do it you know where I am you know where you are can we vote we can yeah anybody else have a problem with that many thoughts and enough words I know hard to [Laughter] believe John just explain to the board what they need for pass L yeah terms of quantity so super majority of a five member board is four folks to I'm not a motion all right I'll make a motion to approve the the decision as [Music] written I'll second it dooll call Micha already Dave I David I Jess Thor and I Mike and Dick have fun right over again just a little smaller scale it's not I don't I yeah I understand what you're saying if you feel the strongly about it then need to like totally look at the actual zoning that entire parcel all the way to West it's not fair to have a whole bunch of V's own Parcels that we're never going to business but again you I don't agree with that that's that's a see you're you're making a an argument and then just not like I'm never GNA we're never going to approve a business on these things no that's not true it's just not we're not going to prove any business right I mean I can do the same thing you know should we prove any business just because they are a business in in all those Parcels I mean that's the same argument that you're making you're saying that we're never gon I think we owe potential people who want to put something par so some more guidance that on what we think is an appropriate business if this one isn't then again there's got to I have no problem doing that but I to me there's a fundamental Choice as to whether the design guidelines or how you wish to have College Highway look in a long-term Vision at have any meeting at this time because I mean at this point you're going to just keep having College Highway the strip malls and and cargs but that's not what this application was so that's a falsehood and again if it's it's not carvon this wasn't an outsized application for the parcel it was being put on it's not a use that is normal to the scale and character of the neighborhood past 1,000 ft you know and I and I I just people keep wantan to I also don't recall a rigorous discussion about design guidelines either I I don't we we did talk about we talked about putting the park I'm my B that was rejected in hand I mean you guys and you guys disagree with that and that's fine but it talked about that's the only thing I mean I mean it's over and down what's next what's next to the board plan review congratulations 3 and 11 have for but you don't hate so some of that's okay it is what it isan I been discreet about what my opinion is absolutely think changes that you [Music] think change that was impossible correct that's what I was trying to figure out whether there was any I don't think the size and character were consistent with that area I don't I still have a loss I think what you think [Music] would a zone change position should occur we should have a real conversation going forward about what we're going to do because these people are going to continue to come in here and complain about every single potential development no matter what scale no matter what size no matter who is proping it and you just gave them fire for that claim going forward if they want to keep that open space open space they should put their money together and buy it instead of continuing to come Force before this board for the past 15 20 years and stifling development but that's I mean start listening folks I would really like to move on to the next thing on the agenda because there absolutely nothing we can do about this and I don't want to talk about it all night no that's I you know at some point you're gonna have to tell me all these things that they knock down because I'm not familiar with all these things um what's the 38 and 11 tall P Trail so uh the green SE subdivision is a residential development and as such planning board gets to review individual lot plans so these are these are building department submitted plans that's just the way it's written in U so traditionally I would take these review them for uh Conformity with setbacks and completeness of essential elements out there uh Water Service uh septic or um building location driveway curb cut granted curb Cuts reviewed separately but if I can get head let's see here we are uh three telpin so real this is a stamped plan that's one of the requirements this is stamped by the e over at LC Associates same uh consultant that produced the side division PL yeah well thankfully uh the house footprint is shown we have their septic location sh all their perks uh as well um and their driveway ex me their drial garage right there and that's generally speaking what I look for for conform right other subdivisions may have infiltration elements related to the house or even driveway R but this is adequate here guess what eight Tall Pines you're gonna see something similar location that's their buildable envelope if you will U they have a Sil fence as well within that there's their setback line right there house is within it same utility elements last one to bother you with uh House number 11 there still on the same culdesac similar features out there for the purpose of we call it review an acknowledgement the M I think really interested and what's the next item bu thank you I will be sure to work those through the building per system noting everyone's reviews that's right record thank you all uh lot 25 27 I'll move on down um that's a nonissue there was a Confusion by a title attorney about what is held in the Covenant in move on over the E re subdivision my records were correct all matter job question one in a row one in a row one in a row that's corre can you do one in a row twice don't think I'm of that nature but what was the question saying we oh well thank you very much being very generous brings us to planning board member and staff comments any member comments any comments think that's any motion to approve the minutes of April 9 do my best my uh I was Grace grateful for some breathing systs but that has evaporated and with all due respect to the board it's difficult to fit in that detailed administrative T limited hours I I will at this point in time I think I have some typing to do while fresh my gr so to try to hurry that up enjy enjoy life too make a motion to close the meeting a second all I start my car