all right we will open the planning board meeting for Tuesday March 12 2024 this is being conducted in a hybrid manner pursuing to the general laws uh if anybody is recording that is fine you just need to let us know okay uh we are recording this and this will be put on our web page after it is completed um 7 o'clock Town planners report thank you very much Mr sh uh just a few items to discuss this evening um I think everyone may have seen an email I sent out with a poll to uh determine what the best fit for meeting with the select board and others discuss uh chapter 61 uh properties as they come out and the policies and procedures we follow for exercising or determining a desired exercise of first Rus it um if you haven't responded kindly uh do so i' given a series of Monday s forward meeting dates in April and May and we'll all see where the best fit Falls uh just a little bit of news uh for upcoming meetings for [Music] the cross as to accept Lor drive and Cody Lane the planning board does need to uh at least assess the matter and provide a recommendation to town meeting so I will initiate uh process uh with the DPW director um so that we can look at the technical uh points um of the infrastructure out there and use that as a spring board for the recommend upcoming business uh we'll have at the moment it looks like we're planning to have a public hearing related to the modification to the short-term rental bylaw that was advised coming out of the uh State Attorney General's office um so I will coordinate that request with the select board and I'm also going to refine uh the individual steps of Town Council just so that I fully understand uh the parameters surrounding the necessity for that public here uh we have also received uh the definitive subdivision and storm water management permit application for uh Oakridge Estates off of Mor Vining Road um so I will set a date for us to open um those hearings and that's it for business okay all right 705 public comment anybody have anything tonight that is not on the agenda they want to bring to the board's attention hearing none see none um what do we have 70 um 662a um public hearing 7:10 p.m. post storage self storage facility special permit site plan approval and storm water management permit application [Music] um did we have something to read or was that just a conversation uh this is just the conversation but it is the applicant requesting um we will he re question question to continue for the next okay um which would get you to the the second meeting in I'm sorry T be the first meeting fair enough I for that uh so April 9th uh do I hear a motion to continue 662a College Highway to 7:10 p.m. on April 9th you said okay Dave Spa so moved singer second do a roll call vote Authority I da Spa I got singer I David S i Jess I okay um with a few minutes here why don't we [Music] um see is Randy just here before that yes I believe so he was here and he's here he's hiding behind Marcus all right um we can do this quickly Randy so why don't you come on up if you're just here for this you don't mind thank you I'm sure you have better things sit here all night all uh for the record Randy Brown 95 Fred Jackson Road I'm here on behalf of my mother Freda Brown of 39 John Mason Road also owner of 41 of 51 John Mason Road this is Tony marzulo uh 39 John Mason R and my mother's husband so we're here to uh ask for a uh site plan review on a proposed solar a ground Mount s facility at the New England Disc Golf Center so I think we're mostly familiar with it with the property we've been here for a few times over the past few years um we uh are looking for a ground Mount system on the property so I think John if you don't mind just pulling that map up give me one second here a few copies here as well but we do meet all the setback requirements as noted in the bylaws um requirement is at least 150 ft which we do meet and uh Tony's here with an electrical background you any questions he's here to answer them what was the total square footage of the panel supposed to uh about 200 square feet total that's probably on the conservative side yeah this is just Standalone power it's not tied into the Grid or anything like that this is just for your your consumption own use on the property correct y we try getting electric it just too costly and too too lengthy of a process so what's it going to happen it seems like where the blue boxes that's kind of opposite from where the trailer we about the club house is so it would be on the other side of the driveway then from those buildings is it yeah that's not a uh current site plan uh but you can see where the construction is that's where the um where the right off the parking lot to the just may be Southwest of the blue box that's where the current Clubhouse is and then the uh trailer is just south of that all along that left hand side there well it it fits better there with the property just the surrounding uses we have a putting green um on that side of the property and we have a driving range on the South Side so that's that's the best place where it fits it's a little have sort of enement for it it's kind of out in the open uh we haven't proposed that and we could maybe look at some screening just some you V of screening um kids pulling pull into the parking lot and kids run out and the P I'm just right there by the we want some sort of fence of some sort to join it just kind of kitty it away from puet area yeah or a robe frisbee yeah yeah there's no holes so that the um there's no holes on that side of the property right there so I want see a frisbee or disc hitting that spot but um I I would suggest maybe some screening just some vegetative screening just to keep itd a little hidden but it's only going to be seen by people that are using on the property you mean not you're several hundred feet away from the road you you have to squint and look real hard to find it look it and see it from the road understood I just user on property yep understood um any other uh questions from the board it's a fixed set of panels not one those tracking yeah no it's fixed I did I didn't PR send this with John but I um It's a grand typical Grand Mount system it's like you know be about eight feet tall in the backside and it's um stationary stationary yes correct and that's already I mean there it's all clear there's no need for any vegetative cutting correct okay um anything else from the board members no good all right so yeah I mean I would um I mean I think with the vegetative screening which I think kind of makes sense the board seems to uh recommend that I you know just I would comply with the bylaw as far as a it's just pull it up V vegetative screening effectively screen the installation within five years of installation so nothing WR there is not going to be that tall I don't believe no we can find some short Shrubbery to c that'd be fine y okay um try not to block this don't want it kind of productive yeah let me I'm just give me one second Randy I'm just making sure there's nothing else um yeah that's it all right um so I would just say if you can just submit something that delineates what the um vegetative screening is just so we can have it and we can sure um see it but subject to that um what is this site plan review just being a oh I have I don't have that one I have to add to my list of standard language all right um all right so do I hear a motion um to recommend the um play plan um provided for 4151 John Mason Road for a small scale ground mounted photo volic system uh subject to um review and approval by the board of the screening plan Dave pis mov second to customer second new roll call vote Michael dhy I da ier I David I okay all set thank you wase you're welcome to stay if you want all right um 7 15 um yeah s and but 720 were're kicking out right you that's correct all right 7:15 public hearing 250 College Highway propos renovation reconstruction of a pre-existing non-conforming multi family dwelling asses brief on this one we're going to request to withdraw without prejudice and look at avenues for reestablishing the 48 section 6 grandfather so um so we respectfully request to withdraw the application without prejudice and then uh you might see us in the future okay um so I'll make a motion or do I hear a motion that um this be withdrawn or the board accepts the withdrawal without questions da been a some mov your second do roll call vote Michael Authority I da I IID all right thank you all set um f as I can work 720 public hearing planning Board review in discussion of the South Lake 2040 master plan final draft consideration of its adoption um if I understand correctly we have comments back from PB PC um sort of finalizing the document um but they've only recently been received so everybody hasn't had a chance to go through them um and ensure that the plan is or that everything is all set so I think the plan will be to move this on to the next meeting at which time we can kind of combined it with um the use uh P can be here he can he can go through it um sort of briefly so that we can approve the plan and he can also discuss um you know his involvement with regard to the um what's the terminy zoning diagnostic zoning diagnostic um so um we can discuss all those in one shot at the next meeting so do I hear a motion to continue the public hearing for the master plan final draft discussion and review to 7:20 p.m. on all right you know no because we can put it up at 710 yes we can why don't we put it at 7:10 pm on um March 26 da penis so moved s second roll call vote Michael dhy I Dave i s i David I just okay um why don't we do that sign permit I just don't think we're going to be able to quickly sure do either Crees or the commercial resoration Stu moment [Music] y ah look at that still sharing my speech what else have I been sharing been working along okay uh so we have a sign perent application review uh for proo realy um this is the building 10s and drive of b& Tool uh two years ago we approved signage in the same location for uh a business um under b& called Cadence Aerospace um and so this essentially is the same submittal different information uh the one substantial change is that this portion um of the front the side is a foot and change shorter than what we reviewed and approved in 2022 so that's the uh front signage we're well under thresholds for called the face square footage to building excuse me to business signage and there's the sign we'll have over the entrance specific to that business entity these are just traditional signs not backlighted elic in any way they are um not lighted uh externally for any that anyway NOP okay all right uh any questions from the board no simp there you go feel stickers do I hear a motion for a positive recommendation for the uh sign proposed for 10 Hudson drop Dave speed sub do a roll call vote Michael Dy I David I I all right all set uh why don't we grab the minutes too and just get that out of the way uh any additions comments questions about the minutes for febrary 27 everybody's good those include ybody um do I hear a motion to approve the minutes for February 27th 2024 D vus move got sing a second do a roll call vote Michael dhy I Dave been I I David S i yes I we get back to going to sign these on WR any time do you wish to well you're bring up a good point right there because the question was raised uh Diane you may not be aware of this but uh uh at this point a couple years back something that came out of the covid-19 uh era was the ability to with your uh rather I should say with the planning board's acknowledgement and permission we moved to electronic signatures um with the vast majority of our documents um so having said that much uh as a new member you follow under that umbrella of action that was taken for that so uh little did you know that you're signing these do we should make sure then that Dian approves that motion as ver signat for the minut yes so on the previous motion for approval of those minutes record well [Music] done okay um a few more minutes before we can open up to 7:30 this Uncharted ground where I any member comment would what we gotta keep the keep the go ahead I just wanted to sh was a Piner Valley planning Commissioners meeting that was had a couple of weeks ago and we received a pretty thorough explanation of the proposed affordable homes act that is making its way through State Legislature at the moment um there includes lots of things including Capital authorizations tax credits and policy initiatives of which two would be immediately on our radar if they pass without change as proposed and that includes adus under 900 square F feet by right um as well as a change to pass inclusionary zoning by a simple majority instead of a two-third super majority at our legislative sessions so at our anual town meetings so just be aware that that's coming down the road and we may want to when speaking with Ken at the next meeting really hit home about where we could make some additions to the Adu uh language so that we have a bit of control if that app okay um well the other thing that's sort of in the background um absent Dian any there was no discussion I didn't get a chance to listen to the meeting from last night um I assumed that the old item about the implementation committee was just passed on to after Doug and I have a conversation wait yeah um which we haven't had to do yet so uh or haven't had time to do yet so um uh further discussion at the last select board uh Doug and I will sit down and talk through you know issues related to that implementation committee and try to come up with a solution I'll certainly uh report back to the board members and and talk through what the prop will be and we can kind of go from there but that's that'll happen hopefully soon around I can around any minutes of time um okay [Music] um all right so why don't we get to 730 public hearing proposed amendments to the chapter 185 section 28 non-conforming you structures Jessica you took the laboring or on this and will be pulling up something yes so Le to take a bander ad there more in foot okay and I'll let you kind of walk through it if you wish or John can I don't care either way we'll be driving that car okay y all right May the backi driv as always just one moment I think well extra time I would have had this deed up don't worry it's not like everybody's looking at you we not doing let's try [Music] again all you did get us right to 7:30 so we're actually time to start appreciate it okay let me get a better zoom level [Music] maybe okay one second please okay uh so we're going to see proposed changes to 18528 uh highlighted in ATT trct format um the first point to discussion uh relates to abandoned or discontinued uses the suggested revision is to go from a time period of one year which I believe uh through reflection of the last meeting was um was TI a lot a lot of things need to happen I suppose over the span of one year so the understands that there's an inclination to uh broaden that to a certain degree and just to I guess back up and put in context it's still the structure of not with one there it's still the structure of um they are they may be continued except um and they can't be but they can't be changed or altered except as allowed within this byog right I mean that's the structure is you can't the only way you can change your alter is or even continue I suppose after three years right I mean with the with the year uh prohibition is under this chapter that's right we'll see a little more language uh developing go through this but look at U or rather open up discussion for those opportunities of flexibility but everything uh those changes exensions alterations and in uh some cases uh resumption okay U is totally controlled under this chapter okay all okay so uh the excuse me Item B one of the section talks about uh reconstruction or restoration uh in the case of uh some catastrophe and in light of the fact that suggested time frame for um for rather before a the nonconforming use would lasts every three years this is expanded as well from 24 to 36 months uh it also adds an opportunity for the planning board to permit changes in the footprint Upon A finding uh by special permit or in a special permit that the change will not be more detrimental to the neighborhood or shall result in a use more in keeping with the character of the surrounding properties so to build a little bit of flexibility uh with planning Board review um to any we call it reconstruction effort due to catastrophe the um I think I agree with the ex extending the completion months it may be worth the put in here since completion is being used a little bit of a uh discretionary buffer for the board to allow that to be extended um you know for good cost right I mean if there's supply chain issues if there's labor issues if there's whatever else that we've seen over the last handful of years right should we said so then said shall be completed shall be commenced I don't no I don't like that because then you get the shovel in the ground and you're Comming right but I mean I do think having pushing it but then at least having some discretion to I mean because under this it shall be done in 36 months and if you face some issue that you're trying in good fith to complete something and you can't get it done you know get a CO because of some issue then I don't necessar neily want to penalize someone for that um but um so I mean it's just food for thought I just wanted to at least raise it while we're going through it so that in part so I don't forget it later on um but yeah question's what yep uh with respect with it's been my experience in the past where a variance would be required something of this nature for completion that request for varage be made to the bo so to keep the existing and then come back say well we have these issues and assertions but it still it still gives proberbly you know a de and something to shoot for and yes they can do variance but we need this much time so instead of inting Zoning Board of adjustment yeah no and so and it's a good point so I you know the way I understand and I have to go back and look and make sure that I'm right at least with the way our bylaws are set up is um we really can't extend time frames absent some discretion within the bylaw and time frames are not necessarily in the purview of the board of appeals they are more feet and inches as far as variances um so I'm not sure they have the ability though I I could be wrong but I'm I've always in my head understood the board of appeals to Simply Be at least in this way this town is set up to be feet and inches right so if you need a setback you get into a setback you can go to the board of appeals and get that not sure they can change time frames I think that has to be in the bylaws but it's a good point and um you know we'll certainly look through it to see whether that is a path forward rather than putting something into here so uh because that may it basically would already exist and we don't need to put it in here if they have that ability so all right um John if you want to keep going here sure thing ABS I mean I you know I'm hopping so if anybody else needs to hop in on sections I just it's easier for me to sort of get it on the record now and then not forgetting public comments um I don't in doing it this in doing the way we're doing this I think it makes more sense as we're going section by section to kind of if there's public comments people can hop in just because it's a more productive way to go through this so if you have something on each se you know as we go through each section you want to hop in please raise your hand Marcus Phelps 28 Depot Street think about maybe a certificate of occupy instead of shall be completed def definite docent Fair completion is a bit amorphous um yeah oh that's fair and I like the uh with that in mind I would go here the 36 months the way things are now with the availability of materials and this and that it's crazy how things extend if they need a variance or setback or whatever interest interest in feet that's a process that runs for the board of appeals Tak six months stuff goes on okay all right um want to move on to C sure um okay so this particular section the board uh I think has some deep familiar with where the opportunity to change extend or alter a non-conforming use structure Andor lot um can only be granted by this planning board if it finds a such change extension alteration shall be equally or more appropriates to the neighborhood than the existing non-conforming use or structure and that such change extension or alteration shall not be substantially more detrimental to the neighborhood than the existing existing non-conforming use or structure so the suggested change to this section would be to remove language that constrains those changes extensions or alterations to within the original footprint or Foundation of said structure okay um just as we're going through it one thing that I you may want to do and this may be a conversation with Mark beging but it always struck me that that that parentheses but shall not be required to Grant um is is legally redundant because of the word may um but also sort of creates this implication that where May is used throughout the bylaws and other places and it doesn't have that parenthesis what does that mean right so I never really like this little parentheses thing here I think it's implied but um and and potentially is concerning elsewhere highlight that where on okay excuse me one second here be with me I've lost a little bit of formatting um okay so the next revision uh pertains to the change of non-conforming uses structures to less non-conforming uses um as it uh as it sits now the opportunity is presented that a non-conform US structure that has been changed to a less non-conform user structure um or to conforming us structure May be changed to a more non-conforming use or structure or to a non-conforming use upon F uh Upon A finding by the planning board in a special permit hearing and then see the similar language that such change alteration shall not be suen more detriments of neighborhood or is more keeping in the character the surrounding properties of the existing nonconforming structure or used to NE I think what you're finding there as you went through that is that this should probably be written in better English than um and so we can work on that we'll get into more substantive to me I mean this is just logic this is the this is the inherently needs to be changed right because if you are going to allow anything outside of the footprint that is inherently you know more nonform so I mean you have to change this and allow that same discretion here as you would but that first part is a is a bear so we could change that a little bit but do we want to allow something that's become conforming to go back to non-conforming is that what that says I think that's that is what that says it is that would be a special it says to a less non-conforming for coning and then so I guess I for you know if at some point in time it is altered tighter okay so it's not necessarily a bad change to footprint right maybe bit strong and then they come back and say okay we did this but we need to add on this refrigeration unit on the other side and as this stands we have to say no because it's already been changed once whether it was changed to more confirming or less noning like I I get that yeah I'm just thinking if something goes all the way to becoming all of a sudden fully conforming want to let it go back but I'm wondering if you're thinking more of if you're thinking more of use and not the building itself right and that's what I'm thinking maybe because when I look at this I say well I'd be aiz little hesitant if the use went back to conforming to then allow it to be nonconforming event right but if the if the use was still continued there and it was non-conforming and the building happened to go I mean I guess that still makes it it's still non-conforming because the use is nonconforming right um trying to imagine a situation where you became conforming and you like you want to allow it to become unconforming again yeah I mean I guess I don't know I guess I'm not sure I can think of one mhm because I think I think if it becomes conforming it's going to be both conforming in Dimensions as well as use right and so I mean it's like if you have a business operating on a residential property right it's going to become a residential property why would you want that to go back to right a business necessarily um I don't know I to think through that I'm not sure that that I think I'm I think that like I'm not sure I can think of that situation where it becomes conforming I think the less conforming makes sense but the conforming doesn't quite make sense to me um so I'm I'm not sure the situation exists where you'd want to let that back but we can run through it all right anything else on that change my shoulder from Mass they have a statement here under changes once changed to a conforming use no structure or land shall revert to a non-conforming use no nonconforming use shall be changed to another nonconform except upon finding by the Na's Board of Appeals that such change shall result in a use more in keeping the character the surrounding prop yeah that's why I T that that piece there on at the end depends on how you define use a little bit but um how narrowly you define it and how broadly right I mean someone wants to change from something that's pretty similar I'm not sure that's a big problem but depends on how you um but yeah the rest of that seems to make sense to Me Maybe it's worth having a statement just like that to sort of say you know I mean it's implied if we take out that conforming but maybe expressly stating it is the way to go uh palum you said yeah okay was that's copied and pasted there on like page six John okay scroll down oh take full credit pass it there it is that's there you are Chang there we go changes so that's the language yeah I think that's I actually like it splits it up that's yeah I got just gotta run through it foring no go non-conforming to non-conforming if it makes sense us yep no I think that more that's specific to use doesn't say build yeah we gotta walk through thatw okay all right let's see so that brings us to section B non-conforming Lots and that's that's with the ex see section one I think uh really repeats parameters under state law and with this if you will the rather odd language of saying any structure or building for residential use or state LW say a single family home or two family home uh that's mostly uh pertains to vacant Lots um that existed prior to zoning yeah I can't be that many no so no changes to those sections okay uh which brings us to some discussion points Mrs Thor would you care to are there this is more just thought bubble stuff yep okay y that's what my the inside my brain is no I lots of red lots of red pencil marks scratching stuff out um but I think when it came to the lock sizes um oh um below F whereever seeing yeah I want we we need to make it clear that what we're utilizing for the Lots is that it's not just a single family home it has to be single and two family um and then this single family law exception language is also from the pelum bylaw that Marcus had sent to us and I kind of just I didn't know if we give more flexibility when it came to um housing lots that may not meet the requirements in the R40 or the R20 and if we wanted to allow um for some flexibility in that considering the push and need for housing in town that if there was a lot that instead of being the requisite is that 40,000 or something like that for a single family in the business zone or 60,000 in the R40 do we want to be able to say is so long as the health inspector says there's enough space here for a well and a septic and that sort of stuff do we want to allow for that denser housing on a Case by casee special permitting basis um again inside of J's brain no no no standing in the idea of what might come before us but we also got to think about how that plays into the uh development you know point right so that and not necessarily for multiple for like a development but even just if somebody comes to us and says hey I've got this lot here that I could split into two that could make for two very decent sized single family homes it's not super dense there's plenty of space between me and the ab properties but it's each lot would be 10,000 fet less than the required in the zoning is that us or just can that be a board of appe heals thing and if not how do we want to open that door for that possibility if if we do or don't yeah I just um I think it's a good discussion point I just don't think it's not it's not something that's going to belong under this chapter right because you're creating it's not a non-conforming well I guess it is non-conforming but it's something you're creating at this point rather than something that pre-exists right so it sort of is by definition not covered by this chapter because that first section talks about the continuation of use that has so um I don't think it's bad disc discuss point I just think it's not for this chapter and it and it really does have to be thought through in connection with the development one as well it's going to impact that to some degree I would think even if it's just as a reference point of saying well you're allowing this over here so why are you not allowing it so and you have all those um you know point system and to do the flex res and all that kind of stuff so you have to just think of it I think as a glal but um okay uh anything else to talk about in this for this diog um mean is there is there um hard is there more concrete um ceilings floors whatever boundaries that you want to put on this sort of right obviously we are awesome but we're not always going to be on the board um and so the question becomes whether you want to um whether you you know I mean if you give that sort of discretion of well as long as it's you know um um fits in within the neighborhood and that's a decent amount of discretion so the question is whether you still carry over some structure of percentage of you know even talk you know just talking about Dimensions right do you want to carry over a percentage should it only be this much more or do you I don't know how you do it on the uses but do you want to carry over some sort of outside you know you have to stop here kind of thing I think that or whenever whatever example comes before us is going to have its own set parameters and challenges that you know we might say that it's reasonable that it's 10% 10% 10% on this side on all sides of the building but then somebody comes and says yeah but you know the tree line is really only 20t over can I can I take my 10% on the east side and add it and make it 20% on the west side and how do we do that and you know what I'm saying like I feel like we end up going down a rabbit hole that the end result and where the an answer has to be it's applicate dependent it's situation dependent it's location dependent it's it's use dependent it's neighborhood dependent you know what a pre-existing use in one neighborhood that then perhaps wants to change it to be slightly more non-conforming might be acceptable over here by the Lakes but it wouldn't necessarily be acceptable in a residential neighborhood on Feeding Hills Road like that sort of how do we build those scales for a future decision to be made I don't know that that's not from you state your name that ass um John and I both had a training professor in college John M and he had a saying that I think is probably applicable to what you guys toiling with said my solution to the problem 20 years ago is my problem today so I think J's point you know you got a bunch of smart people on the board now awesome hopefully in 15 or 20 years you'll have you know same typ people on board I think out good um I think as you mentioned being overly specific can be problematic John you know before he lived this life did similar to what I'm doing and we went you know we went the multiple municipalities Z watch the MK continue to go and we're constantly tweaking in some I use the term Escape atch but some municipality don't have an escape edch and they really want that at a discretion so I think you know if you did put your um parameters on it which might make sense at least provide yourself skap patch in for those circumstances that are a little bit out of the ordinary that you might something the key point is that we're awesome yeah that's that yes 5. Road uh two questions if you have a non-conforming use and you want to change it can you make it another different non-conforming use yes that is currently allowed that is uh well that would be allowed under here what you're proposing is you want to just go back up to that um uh one that talks about the conforming uh let's see no go down go down I'm sorry this guy right here J stop right there y that's thank you Mrs Right so right now it's in this awesome sentence here um what it's if it's you can today if I have a non-conforming CH to when this is it's today if I want to change that to a bar can I you can change it's going to depend I think on whether it's consider to be less or more non-conforming right I mean I think you can I don't I'm trying to look how you determine that now you don't have scale oh I don't disagree that that's a problem but I you know as I read this and I just got to look through this again because it's never come up with in front of us so I'm not sure the answer to it but if this this says whenever a non-conforming user structure has been changed to a less non-conforming user structure some kind of that implies that a a no but that implies that a non-conforming use can be changed to a less non-conforming use right that sentence implies that and so nonconformance do you have a as it's really confusing and the answer is rest some time ago about um sign guidelines and now that we are very close to having a master plan in place mation how do we work that into the Z we say the board will use this expression in referring to the master plan something to that effect to give you some basis for that soft right give a scale for the future boards to weigh thatwhere that and or meets with the [Music] goals and I just want get your first point if you look back at um 1 C it allows for a change um of the use by special permit uh if the change is equally or more appropriate to the neighborhood than the existing non-conforming use structure and that the uh not substantially more detriment right so you can go from non-conforming to less non-conforming as long as it fits into that but subjective but it is subjective correct yeah why don't you finish up on this and then I'll go to Jean so so if your you have Provisions in your Z regulations to allow for a finding for an extension of pre-existing nonform use or structure if you have that in place by default what we doing is creating an increase in the amount of Conformity give the use for the property the reason I saw the language pulled out the language about extending be seems very logically um but I think by default if you're granting a finding or a special permit to allow for the extension or alteration PR point of use by The Vault allow it and increase in that nity because you're you're argu saying that it doesn't derate the well it just I but I don't that implies that there's not a scale where you can say it's more or less non-conforming right because this this bylaw in has inherent in it that there's some scale where you can say this is more non-conforming this is less non forming I don't know how the hell you do that but but I don't think you have to say that I think you are not saying that it's you're not making a statement that it's more that it's more or less nonconforming I think you're acknowledging that it's existing non-conformant and that you're allowing the use either to continue or to expand or extend or the or the structure to expand or extend beyond the current nonconformity and thereby you're providing the per because you're arguing that it doesn't or you're making a statement that it doesn't derate from theend bylaw and that it's not DET the neighborhood you know it's in keeping with the master so I don't think you're necessarily deciding but focus on use like I and I agree with you on all of that right but let's talk about use so say garage right now is a garage it's service Zone it it's a purely residential Zone surrounded by other homes but it has long been established a business location of some sort Walt decides to retire it doesn't want to say a car garage but becom some other business that doesn't increase obnoxious noise and smells to the neighborhood won't have a major impact on traffic even though you're talking about rout 57 and everybody who lives in Grandville and tall and driving by it every day like in that case is somebody going to buy that property and put up a single family home I don't know that that's more likely I would like the opportunity to say okay this business while also non-conforming to the zone and use makes sense to to allow for this switch from one non-conforming use to and the only reason I think you have to do that you don't necessarily have to do that initially but then when you go down further into the bylaws if you if you have already done something like that where you've already made it less right and you have to make that determination as to whether it's been made less then you can't then turn around and make it more right and so it's like a two-step initially you just have to look at the neighborhood and what have you presumably if you meet that it's less non-conforming I would assume there's two two questions I think that play right so the first question we do that on we get special permits to extend 369 performing we however are not allowed to change to another so I don't think there's any provisions in any zoning regulations that I've ever seen that allows us to say ball SC now and we said we want to do Pall facility so we wouldn't necessarily be able to do that say that I think that's allowed here though creation no no but I mean I the way I read this and I again I just have to go back and look at it more but the way I read it is that would be allowed if you make the determination that it is better for the neighborhood and fits in with the neighborhood you know you are basically saying it's less non-conforming and we're okay with using it there so I think you can in this town whether you know to change the use to change the use from right I mean it me's example is a good one right and that from a garage use to retail or whatever else right I mean probably less non-conforming to nice to have that flexibility I think you I think you can I mean I think that already exists I don't think we've ever done it when I've been on the board but I think you can but then also anybody considering it up until this point had to then read the next sentence that says not withstanding you can't change any part of the footprint or anything that becomes problem looked at w gr and maybe wanted to say I'm going to change the use and no I can't even put in a step so never mind like correct I mean that's this may open up that change but I I in particular in being mindful of small businesses and how the world is constantly changing around us that to build this level of flexibility in is important y Jean I we're just going to say nonconforming to a non l i take Les it depends on if you're reading it in the morning or the afternoon to a lesser degree the degree of you then have to Define degree because degree of what right so um yeah I mean I yeah there's some there's some work left to do on some of these uh who's to say what a degree is the board we're awesome OPP yeah I um yeah I mean it's it's I mean that's a fair point whether that gets incorporated into the section too and depending on where the location there possibly you know actually divorcing design um heavily yeah I mean right but that's the board is able to do that they have so in this in College Highway they have the ability to do that you could exp do you need to but not tonight but not tonight Fair um um okay um anybody else on this okay um all right so I think the plan would be to kind of digest this come back and go through and see if we can work toward a um you know work I mean I think we know which sections need to be sort of worked on and we can work on the language of those and try to get to ideally a voting document but make our way there at least at the next meeting so uh actually I take that back we need to really make our way there a little bit more quickly because we're supposed to get it done by April 1st Mar oh I thinkest request when is the the impression that they wanted all the work done and finalized by then and I I shouldn't have said anything a few seconds ago yeah yes the pressure is on I want you know we got to find out when the planning board deadline is and then we can sort of meet that's not John that's CR I mean I actually think we can probably find get to a good point at the next meeting so um I'm not too concerned about that and if we need another meeting then we need another um April 9th is not going to be the end of the world for the warrant right um so okay uh so do I hear a motion to continue this to how many what this thing looks like so I believe we've occupied S I have and when we we put the master plan on 710 yes 710 36 yes I mean let's just put it on for 7:30 again U do I hear a motion to continue this public hearing on uh nonconforming to 7:30 p.m on March 26 Dave SP so moved second roll call vote Michael dhy I Dave I David and I and I where do we add the part about board being awesome minutes Mr chair I'm sorry I do need to make one question either you say something like that you go to say something I agree with my with now or we um just have 2 730 appointments coincidentally it was so fast I that's with 771 call already advertised uh well it was continued from the previous meeting Oh that's oh that's a yeah yeah yeah yeah okay um so what time yeah so let's put it on for 8 o'clock uh because we're gonna have to do the master plan if anyways it's just going to take some time so um do I hear a motion to continue that to 8 o' on March 27th d s second oh call vote Michael dhy i j i s i David I okay my minute um sorry and I have picked up on that too all right what do we add next that's done that's done that's done 157 Feeding Hills Road um proposed uh minor site plan modification requests uh AR which to that point it may be more helpful to at least amalgamate the discussion correct in that yep we'll put both of them on at the same time how are you how are you're next Rob I promise all right how are you okay um so tell us what we're looking at and um we'll go from there all right um I guess it's two separate things right one of them about you can kind of trade it together if you you can put it all together so um so one of them is uh cooking outside occasionally not every day but uh if it's possible I know we talked to John he said be might be helpful to get what it's going to be for equipment I got some pictures I don't know if you want to take a look it's just examples what what it's going to be it's nothing nothing crazy but just kind of you know and we still have to confirm that with Health Department let's say in the first picture we don't like it's doesn't have anything from Top like covering from top but this is how it goes but we will talk to them and we can modify any equipment to but before we're going to do that we just want to know if it's allowed if if we even can allow to do that um it's all portable nothing going to be in grounded it's all going to be removable it's just going to be coming out put it up use it put it back put it back in the storage um what are you thinking for frequency um at this point we're talking about we would like to be exposed once a week this is a a like goal for now and just we want to test the ground we want to see how um first of all how everybody would react we're talking about customers neighbors everybody else maybe some concerns will come I don't know maybe it's a smile a noise whatever but at least we would like to even I think would be helpful maybe we have like Ral period just to see it but you know if that can be like a half a year I don't know whatever three months just to see it but fires these smokers I'm sorry wood coal gas it's all wood we want to use wood all wood yeah we don't want to use any pallets nothing like that it's all this is whole idea to have an go back to Roots you know wood and for smokers for example we use a fruit wood like apples you know like uh whatever fruit wood we can find he's our resident smoker expert so so we maybe we need some expertise more people with a smoker than you do yeah sure why not at least on one day a year so um okay um and second Mar is a cooler if we can allow to put like temporarily like we talked last meeting um we did some measurements with um I don't have a map with me but um I think we emailed right like a distance where we we have to have we have to be like 75 feet from a road but that can be I guess push back or forth um but we're still fine with that if if that the case which is going to be a trailer kind of that the par Trail would be more visible and we're not sure how it makes sense for people to see it maybe makes sense to kind move it a little bit closer to the road couple feet and uh that way it will be more away from the people's eyes what are you thinking about putting it on there um yeah that's a property right there on this side how big is it um 20 feet by six 6 by five yeah M uh are you making reference to the the previous sketch yeah okay yeah so that's the I mean that's if I'm thinking about it right that's where can't be right because of the setback issue yeah and that's the problem with that is that you can't put it in you have to still comply with the setbacks and so yeah um it I think on that um whatever that is that that would be the west side of the property by the U by the water department entrance there I don't think you can put it over there without intruding on the setbacks so that's going to be the problem if you wanted it over there um we can um I've got the the the previous previous filing uh so this line right here ends up being your front setback line yeah all the way back there oh this is not from no see that's why it's it's non-conforming right because both in the use and in the and the dist from this side old 75 ft it would be somewh over right but if you're measureing from this line yeah right from the property line back 75 feet grabs most of the prop line is not this but that no I'm sorry that's this is the setback line which is 75 feet from the front of the from the from the edge of the road right not from the middle from The Edge sure from the edge of the right away edge of the right away right yeah and so the funny thing about this art is we're trying to find ways uh for this to be permitted as a a temporary yeah uh installation um one of the parameters in order to allow that is that it has to be inside um or it can't violate the setback constraints of a property so so just to be so this line is 75 ft away from that's correct because when we measure we come up somewhere over here unless oh there's my Dimension right there I mean and it's something you can go back and we can figure it out and make sure it's accurate but if it's if it's accurate and it runs where this thing shows then you can't under the bylaw put that there now you can I can't refresh my memory art what is to the right side of that deck it's that that pink structure there oh this is the walking cooler wait say that again walkin cooler is the walkin cooler okay this is uh old news mic yep just yep okay but isn't there something there or am I am I just forgetting or don't you keep something there you keep it staircase we have two upstairs right by this line um we can but another thing we can rebuild that staircase but it's going to be a much bigger project it's not going to be for temporarily cooler you know I mean it just under that bylaw right if where that pink rectangle is to the right this piece right here I mean you could put a trailer this is because that's outside of the setback we have a walking pool are they existed right and there's no room between the parking and the parking and that right that would be that seems to me the best location to put that because it's the closest to the building outside of the sunb right as I look at it I mean I I just don't know where else you could you could I suppose put it to the left of the deck right um in the back there I can't but that's where you want to put a sort of patio area right down by the deck of the left yeah so I don't know how to and this will be edge of a patio type of IDE Plus Electric panels is on the other side it would be easy to connect po wise and wi wise and all that stuff yeah I mean that you just have to figure out how to get it out of that setback because you can put it in that setback out of the bylaw there's a bylaw which is 32 side so if we can even put on the left but you have to keep it out of all setbacks so you can't you have to meet that front setb no matter what right I mean you also have to meet the side one um which I don't is the side one on here yeah it's a little more faint okay it's right there so that's not going to be a huge impact um at all like but you are going to need to stay outside those setbacks under the bylaw you can't you can't put it in there under the bylaw so okay that I we we can't allow um but I mean I do think you do have the right under that bylaw um to temporarily put something there under the trailer bylaw and I I think you do um have to look at it a little bit more closely but [Music] um you have to get a permit from the building inspector right is that what it is um and the Board of Health potentially um but you could get a a you know I think it allows for basically up for a year um but you have to sort of reapply um I forget how long they for but you could do it under that set under that chapter that bylaw but you have to keep it out of the setbacks that's the only part not the only partment that's a requirement so unless you can figure out a way to do that you know and again I I mean that um I would probably put good money on this being accurate but you can certainly go try to figure out and make sure that that 75 ft is indeed sort of behind the building um and that can be discussed but you know assuming that's true you're going to you're going to have to comply with that to put that trailer there um so that was uh let's talk about the parking we'll come back to that booking but let's talk about the parking is that part of what's on for tonight or no I think with some initial discussion are has that call last on the list okay okay um so let me just go back the I mean I don't um there's two questions in my mind right one is um whether whether using the outside like that for occasional cooking is an extension of the non-conforming usern not as that's used in the byog um and if it was I mean does that mean that it falls outside the footprint it's not you're not really you know what I mean it's it's not it's not like you're adding to the building um so you're also doing something that in a residential district that anybody in a residence could basically do um so I don't you know my inclination is to say um that it could probably be allowed but we would want to have some run it but as you sort of proposed right which would be sort of as a test um and sort of take stock of it after you know a period of time and just see where things stand um with some limitations that would applied to it as far as the frequency and you know time frames or whatever I mean we put some on it but I don't think it's necessarily outside of I don't think it necessarily extends the use or extends the footprint in my mind the way I sort of think about this and um you know it makes me feel more comfortable about it if you're voluntarily agreeing to sort of allow for these conditions and sort of testing of it and we can kind of go from there I think that that's a reasonable I mean almost compromise if you will to sort of just see because it's a little bit of a gray area in the bylaw it really is I mean there's just not you know and and I think some other places have um whether it's I mean I think some other places have smokers or whatever else in town and so whether they're not performing or not I suppose I don't know um off top of my head but Legend old building there down below Smoke House and they one there I know there's a couple out of town uh now the UN butcher blocks they do it right in the parking lot yep um so I mean I don't you know um didn't get Curtis up there um I don't think it's I'm not sure I'm sold that it's in the bylaw but I think if we can come to this compromise I think that's a reasonable Way Forward okay um so I would say this um why don't we um we'll put it on for the next meeting and try to um with John over the next couple weeks we will just kind of put stuff in writing and try to get a sort of proposed with conditions kind of thing and trial period and you see how that um goes okay yeah and then we'll sort of vote on it next meeting and we can give it a shot over the summer and see how that the you know outside period obviously you don't necessarily need it I suppose you could start it now it's yeah yeah at least you know we can at least for me to know what I can work with correct you know because amount of equipment amount of hours whatever you know like how long I expecting because if let's say I invest in the equipment and I just only get two months for example may not enough maybe whatever reasonable time would be reasonable maybe a season let's say I don't know like six months or something like 3 months I don't know at least to kind of get the feeling because everything new takes time yep and the other part about this right is that I mean we have to sort of recognize that we are in the middle of changing the nonconforming use by law um which may change the framework under which you're operating so you know I mean I think this is also a decent compromise over that period of time until we see what the ground RS are okay so anybody on the board have any anything to add to that any disagreement any what have you no no good good you're good no okay want to ask back a little bit the B which one the plan yeah this is what um yeah this is what we prop Sor since we go behind this line so can we put here behind um and it meets the set back on the side yeah if it meet side back on the side give me a minute let me just side back in the back go back um sorry now all right and I don't know if um let's say s need to be M or somebody with pinpoint exact you know what I mean I don't want to be like oh we Feit win one way or another you know what I mean yeah my main concern about um electricity which I don't want to Hanging wires because it's a let's tree branch if I can at least even temporarily maybe dig something put there I don't know if that I can talk to Du department just to find out if because it still draw power and I don't want to power courts you know hanging or you know something like that we can we can nicely dig something and put like temporarily let's say electric outlet or something that that would make sense that that structure yeah and we can work with building department make sure both safe and you know check and stuff yeah just but keep in mind that it is a temporary yeah yeah what I'm saying it just um so um by definition under this section um you examining the yeah last five words as a matter of right I think well if it was intended to be specific to the buite uses I would think that would be worded different as it sits right now restaurant yeah I've bed that one back that's no you're right y down to dat save that for later it's recorded um yeah so um I think you have a right under Section 32 which is the trailer section of the bylaw um to use a trailer temporarily um let's see I just want to read you the right so you know what it is um in the case of a trailer to be used for carrying on a business on or in the case the case of a trailer to be used for carrying on a business under this section including a trailer used for storage of inventory or mer Des um building inspector May issue success permits in appropriate cases for up to 365 days provided there is sufficient area for loading and unloading so he needs sufficient area for loading and unloading parking and the trailer can meet any setback requirements of his own District okay okay merch merchandise and inventory not a hazardous material I assume you can meet um it can be sold in District as a matter of right which you can because you are a non-conforming use in that District um so it's not something we need to um per you to do is something you need to apply to the let's see building Spector and the Board of Health okay um may very well be something we have to figure out the application for that probably has not often been that's a guarant applied for but um but you know it will have to go through those two departments you have to get permits under those two departments okay and then you you know it will be I don't know how long they allow it for but it'll be for a limited period of time okay okay all right so that will work 75 ft Z as long as it's building department and and over from the side right so wherever that side set back is is it 20 oh never mind we that whatever it is as long as not in any the set backs you're fine yeah because I may going to take because like I see over here it seems like it's measured not not from a road because we measured from a curve and seems like we have property goes into the property that's correct this is a problem you know what you need to keep in mind too right is that you do have a right to put that there onto the by you still have um bylaws which would apply for noise and odors and whatever else right and that odors doesn't necessarily apply to the longer pool but you have to keep in mind you know Noise by laws and and Traer old I have a trailer so this is why problem and bad nebor issues for you we want you to be able to to do this without it so to the extent you're putting it where you're thinking about putting it and not to the other side of the building by parking lot MH um you know you're going to have more potential for noise that impacts the neighbors and that is a different issue so you know just keep that in mind I'm not saying that you can't you do have a right under that bylaw to go to the building inspector and to the Board of Health and get permits um but just you know keep in mind that there are other requirements and and impacts that may um okay uh you know affect you in the way where you put it so okay all right anything else I think that's it but regarding parking so I don't know if you want guys St if you let's um if you have something to say I sure so the feedback I provided if I may uh to board members um and let's so what I'm showing right there on the screen there that's the suggestion right yeah get uh establish an eror for employee paring um in referring to Mr salvini's plan that access road doesn't lie entirely within the Crepes tea house property so this line right here that's you know one edge of the gravel and that's the other um and is actually established as a an ease um across your property uh so what that means is that in order to have some off paring you'd have to be working with a a new configuration of that curve cut uh it can work in concert with the portion that's on your property uh but that's something that would definitely need um some careful design uh and showing PL so we can share with the SA police safety officer and the fire department uh in DPW looking at the site distances either way um one factor that I haven't quite landed on yet but let's just start let's be conservative right uh if we have parking an interior portion of your property uh there's the potential that there's going to be two-way traffic someone entering and leaving at the same time so that's a scenario that needs to be accommodated the most conservative um aspect of that um uh is managed in our parking lot um design parameters where you have to construct something the order of 24 26 feet I forg what it is um in width uh to allow for Access uh in and out um and there would need to be some screening there's an element making sure that there's that the adjacent property is screened so what that does that ends up pushing if you will the access Drive um although could use a portion of what's the existing out there it would virtually be 10 feet off the property line for that portion then you have the width of the AIS driver up and then the par so it's uh I'm say this is a design exercise that's going to use up a fair amount of area as practical and simple as it looks out there on the ground uh the presence of a property line down the middle of that access rope uh really shifts the opportunity but that's something that I think you'd be best served to have your consultant you know take a look at and see what happens if they can doable my question if it's doable it may think that's if it's May again at least try start going asking what the consequences because at least we will know doable it's not do okay we'll not touch it and I'll send you the parameters kind of inform listed them off right here but also some the frers that I looked at and I mean the other part about it just given the way this is set up is if it is doable it is going to be for employee parking only and there has to be some um signs signs or you know designation that that's you know what it's for so it doesn't end up to be sure used as um you know in andout parking for people yeah coming so okay less than the intensity all right I got you yeah because even if we have a walking cooler area we still have to park on load load you know for us would be beneficial to kind of you know have it that legally instead of getting in trouble we have a truck pull in and unload there for not semi- triler we're talking about we talking about the smaller like van which we have okay all right so that's it thank you yeah thank you that [Music] information thank you all right last one best for last if you will that one more you want um just 233 South I know we right 233 South Lum Street uh s Campground draft commercial recreation bylaw Amendment um by uh we back in Associates second now this goes with the she gave us last meeting or a different one Al together same thing another C you're making you know a good case to be put on the master plan implementation commit I got nothing going on no no not at all GNA fill in that time yeah one more second yeah yeah don't look at the monitor something right in your ear it's reflection about camera reflection so Rob just to give you and I'm only speaking to for myself not for the board but my view of this to sort of perhaps guide you know the discussion is I generally think um expanding commercial recreation in this town the way this town is set up is probably consistent with what folks want in this town is probably consistent with the master plan it's probably consistent with the way this you know the vibe of the to um so I don't think I have any problem with the idea of it um but you know I just want to make sure that it's being done in a way that is um uh generally applicable that makes sense in the in the general sense and not necessarily just on a site specific absolutely you know so I mean that's the way I'm looking at it so to the extent you can kind of talk through the proposals in that sense would be ideal absolutely um so by way of introdu introduction again Rob on J I believe it's Sam Morton I believe he's still awake back up in New Hampshire there he is uh so so Sam is a um he has a construction and management company that Som builders that um Works directly with campgrounds uh throughout the region you know uh new uh New England New York Etc um they have a number of projects that they've been working on so they are working for the uh fairly new owners of the Sodom Mountain Campground um we got to looking at first compliance issues related to kind of what was going on out there kind of a a little bit of a tired uh Campground in some regards uh lot of opportunity great location frankly in the region there's a lot of draw um it's you know it's a successful Campground they think they can make it more successful as we got to look into some some of that stuff a few things in the zoning ordinance you know rear their rear reared its head for example the pre-existing non-conforming stuff so uh in this particular case not to be to site specific but just for a minute um pre-existing non-conforming use because it's in the agricultural conservation Zone uh versus the R40 which allows for commercial recreation so right there the front of the property off of South Lumis I think it is um is Zone R40 back is agricultural conservation which if you look at the definition of agricultural conservation doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense on the top of a mountain so it's kind of a you know it's a goofy scenario so we we're looking at that so we're looking at the zoning then we got into the ordinance we looked at at R40 in commercial recreation um so what you have before you this evening is the basically a print out of the commercial recreation portion of the bylaw which which I believe is allowed in R40 and not an agricultural conservation but in in the event which we will be submitting a zoning map Amendment separate from this zoning map amendment to try to get refail to R40 which we think is more appropriate for the property um or maybe if that doesn't get granted we might look at going the pre-existing pre-existing non-conforming route um in the event that um we remain agricultural conservation and your pre-existing nonconforming changes get Incorporated so there's a couple Avenues forward um but the while we were looking and because we were thinking of the aror on the district it made sense to uh take a look at at these and we appreciate the time so I'm going to I know it's late I'll be brief I'll try to go through it um if it's okay with you I'm going to skip the whole first part a lot of 18534 um a through C all makes perfect sense the only item I would say on the whole entire first page is you guys should increase your fee um but that's a it's 40 bucks and seems I don't know what you could do for that so um there's a cou minor typos I don't know if they're ours or yours but under building permits the State Building Cod of the town of sou probably means you'd say or um that might be ours might be yours I'm not sure but i s i noticed I noted that under F commercial recreation um I saw this and I was thinking about ry's previous use that was was really kind of a cool use like a pick ball and all these other different things that are coming up these days so I noticed under F just something you might want to consider um commercial recreation shall include only the following permitted uses you might want to provide yourself a little flexibility if there's a cool new use that comes up or have a catch all at the end some way yeah yeah like that escape apps that we talked about yep um skipping to the campground portion um under eight so f8 um the rental of campsites and then we're we basically did track changes here for your view basically says as part of a commercial recreation operation so I think Camp a campground itself should be a commercial recreation operation not necessarily subordinate to the another use so for example if I had a ski like the way I read the regulations if I had a ski area you know on Sodom mountains I could have campsites a certain number of camp campsites associated with each area it's area is not really well defined um you know it seems like this you know it's a use in and of itself but right now it seems to fall under a separate allowed commercial recreation use so that's it's kind of tricky so I'm going to leave you with these ideas to think about I can come no I know what you're saying with that I yeah yep so to me it should be probably included while it's included as eight the way it's written as part of a commercial recreation operation so we struck that and then we you know and left the rest of it which which made sense us us um good so far under a trailer RV RV um this next section which is going to be under so it's the third page um under under 8A I'm sorry 8B campsites may not be occupied between December and next following March um so this is interesting and and Sam could speak to this but generally speaking um we they we understand that you don't want year round residents nor do they but there are people that believe it or not like traveling nurses that might come and they might have a three-month stint or a six-month stint and they're actually great tenants for that or um great Camp uh rent renters but um they there is a market in the winter um which is kind of interesting in the fall and the winter and the spring so um they understand that we're not looking for a trailer park that's not what we're looking for but at the same time because of the nature of the businesses and how they work um there there may be the desire and they certainly have the desire to be able to accommodate transient folks that are there maybe for months but not just necessarily in the summertime or or the W months so with the technology and some of these things that is available so that's that's where we were looking at that so B um while it's not crossed out is something that we would like you know we would like to look at if possible um we think that permanent reg Regency uh residency permanent residency needs to be be defined I don't think defin that there's no it's not in your definitions so that would be helpful to help clarify and regulate and you know if there's any if you enforce um that type of thing um the number of uh campsites and this is another thing under c number of campsites in any one commercial recreation area what is that right so we just said okay let's cross that out call a campground shall not exceed and then those numbers are obviously subject to your um you know your thoughts also we are planning a meeting with um the fire department talk about you know a lot of the issues related to these facilities and fire and all that so you'll try to incorporate that into hopefully another discussion um so and then we just said without a special permit gr granted by the planning board so everything's subject to special permit as it already is um and this would be the same uh that we crossed out trailer storage year round is not permitted um right now arguably most campgrounds function in that they will let people leave their campers on site for a storage fee obviously they can't live in them year round but they they um I did it at Cape they do it I do do believe they do it all over so it just seemed logical to adjust that um no questions or comments on nine number 10 we struck number 10 in its entirety uh except as above residential usage so I'm sorry shall be limited to the existing dwellings one additional dwelling and new accommodations for persons employed by the premises only um we weren't really sure exactly what that was designed to pertain to um but right now for example there's caretaker um caretakers quarters on the property um I think most campgrounds have caretakers quarter and are allowed to do um certain things um we you know know maybe maybe that gets looked at in more detail but we for now we we struck it and you know maybe there's something that needs to be added back but stru it um Pro Shops number 13 Pro Shops and retail shops accessory to or incidental to the campground or commercial recreation use so we added Campground in there since that wasn't in there again commercial recreation use what is it um but just just to um I mean I get where you're going with it but Campground is not a defined term necessarily either right I mean commercial the state RS um there are certain definitions but it would be logical to Define both right yeah agree absolutely um and it seems to me that Campground as a defined use should fall under you know should you feel this appropriate should fall under those possible commercial recreational uses y um uh number so G2 no structure except single family dwellings and no recreational activities except a golf course shall be less than 200 feet from the nearest public way uh nor less than 250 feet um from the nearest dwelling located under the ownership of the same um on the same side of the highway um we just think it's cleaner to Define setback requirements from the lodge and accessory structures and then obviously from the you know the campsite themselves I think again that was probably something but back to the old planner statement that was somebody's problem 20 years ago and or was a solution years ago maybe a problem today um number three off street parking shall be provided for cars of all patrons employees and persons using the facility together with necessary access driveways to public roads all looks good surfacing shall be a type appropriate for the proposed land use um Eng shall be treated to inhibit dust we weren't sure exactly what that meant certainly we don't want dust so if there's something that needs to be done but you know there's there's we just kind of took that out um the at the end there adequate access roads depending on the number of camp sites in terrain factors it says at least 24 feet in width to a width suitable for emergency vehicles so we we just 24 ft in width is your standard uh subdivision Road um you know 12T lanee it's pretty substantial so in a you know for Fairly naturalistic setting it seems to that you should have some flexibility maybe some oneway um movements of vehicles through so we were thinking to a width suitable for emergency vehicles uh provided some flexibility there number five Banquets meetings stage presentations and dancing shall be held inside a structure but this shall not prevent presentation outside of a structure of athletic exhibitions or contests or theatrical performances no idea we took it out why no dancings inspired by somebody was thinking that so we were kids we used to we used to start peaceful Pine campgrounds double tap it was like 30 people p Bachi around the entire perimeter of the camp along the road and it was wild it was just like a big mob just moving it was fun uh number six no entrance or exit from a campsite shall be allowed to move through a residential development we just said all entrances or exits shall be through an existing uh through existing curb Cuts maybe it should say curb Cuts rather the existing Cur cuts on public W I think you approved C Cuts yeah I think you skip number four uh four yeah number four we don't have any changes so the volume but that was the volume of of I'm sorry the volume of sound from music and public address systems and recreational motor vehicle shall be so controlled as to prevent objectional noise off premise we thought that seems reasonable so don't he my house exactly um all right we're moving pretty quickly here so number eight no person shall conduct control manage or operate directly or indirectly any Campground and we we took out recreational camp overnight camp for commercial Camp unless he is a holder of a license as a as specified Mass state sanitation code y y y so we just clarified it as Campground and there must they uh oh that's your regul I all right uh Rob there is something under master general laws as far as campgrounds that's sort of a defined termed thing so we can incorporate that okay yeah so there's uh there's state regulations regard campgrounds is also Board of Health in uh well Title Five I should say regulations regarding campgrounds and then Mass D has regulations regarding campgrounds with uh sanitary facilities exceeding 10,000 gallons okay and sometimes 15,000 gallons depending on the year it was going okay just to be fun all right um number nine there shall be a minimum of 20% of total land area in the campground left in its natural state um we said there shall be a minimum of 20% open space areas left in its natural state we just kind of cleaned that up have trouble with that term I would put in maintain somewhere maintain actal State rather just falling down on their own you know so I think there needs to be something Rel so left and maintained in its natural state I mean yeah probably need a work but yeah I mean it's like you can't create let a hazard exist but keep the adjacent species up yeah um number 11 external lighting at the main entrance shall be shaded to prevent glare on any enjoying property animated flashing and oscillating signs are not permitted signs will conform to the rules and regulations signs and effects the town of South maybe we leave the last part but I don't think summs are a big um you know for crrs as long as they can find it you there's GPS these days and you know seem like inflatable spinning spinning yeah out there dancing holding the arrow uh number two under H uh approval of the plans by the South Lake Board of Health and State Board of Health uh we said it says is required before approval of the special permit typically what would be logical for example in this case would be to make sure you have project right so you know make sure that you know an adjustment or an expansion or a new Campground if that was was something that somebody was pursuing uh could be done um there is a number of U infrastructure related requirements for example Title 5 or if you exceed 10,000 gallons per day a groundwater discharge permit a public water supply often times comes into play all those things are like multi-year potentially multi-year um permitting Endeavors that if the planning board wasn't cooled with things you wouldn't want to spend time energy in significant amount of money special permit indicates that you will follow yeah you'll yeah so any conditions to that effect would be fine but we just it didn't make sense that it would be required prior to the issuance of a planning board special per get public water out there after all these years you still won't get I don't know I mean yeah yeah it's they have a public water supply but it's a it's well yeah I that I think that makes I mean with the caveat that obviously if the plans change based on the of course Health it needs to come back and get that approved but um but I that's always been our yeah feeling we don't you know as long as it's it's a final plan you go deal with the other boards after right from a critical path standpoint it's logical to you know probably conservation first and in concert with planning and then you know we want to we want to make sure we have the information we probably would have perk tests and soil information and maybe even some preliminary well testing before we came to the planning board formally but we would want to get our ducks in a row here to make sure we knew what we were even designing for because if we don't have a certain number of sites approved by the planning board you can't really design them sanitary facility uh okay so that one makes sense um number three potable water shall be furnished by a p pressure system with one Outlet on each independent campsite and one outlet for not more than 10 dependent campsites so we just said tent campsites uh instead of dependent so then instead of independent should it be are we or some other is that what that supposed to mean the difference yes yep not more than 10 10 camp sites because each RV will have its own um hook up like an RV site will have its own hookup right so on each RV campsite and one outlet for not more than 10 10 yes right yeah exactly so we can yeah exactly um number uh number four sanitary sew disposal shall be under the supervision of the the local Board of Health in conform to the state sanitation code plan shall be approved by Massachusetts Department um of health and we added um you know Mass D so which is part of the pering requirement um a community toilet shall be provided in accordance with the state and local Health laws um or whatever however you guys want to refer to those but that kind of cleans it up there was a bunch of language regarding to serve not more than 10 campsites shall consist of a shower stall laboratory it was it was pretty detailed so we just would make sure we meet this the the state and Board of Health requirements for um fixture counts in bathrooms and you know obviously sanitation with regard to um uh s I'm sorry septic systems and then also um we have to adhere to the state to the public water supply in that particular in this particular Cas do you know if the either these Health laws or the laws regarding campsites that Community like showers are provided yeah are there's very there's very specific requirements per campsite and fixture counts Etc based on the number of OCC your number seven um it says no outdoor cooking it had said and we struck it uh no outdoor cooking shall be allowed except at approved locations so we figure that there needs to be some maybe there's some language with regard to outdoor cooking we don't want it to be halfhazard but at the same time people have RV sites the RVs literally have a a fold out Grill so it's you know on the Open Fire EX you can't have a campsite without a fire pit and that that's going to be Fire Marshall correct dependent about where they can be yeah and we we do intend like I said before coming back we would uh we're going to hopefully meet later this week or early next week with the I can't imagine telling the family around a campfire sorry no roasting no hot dogs dos Andes you know right um each campsite shall contain not less than uh it was 2500 square feet which is large 800 square feet is typical to what Sam and Som have been building and renovating in the number of locations so we just adjusted that accordingly uh we we struck provided that there shall be not more than 10 campsites per gross acre devoted to such sites in exclusive of all public open spaces um you know obviously this is all would all be by special permit so all the review of sites and whatnot would be at the discretion of the of the planning board which is awesome I heard they are I'm not per but 8 14 yes I don't know if Youk RV as house then yes it would be exactly you know you park two cars on 800 feet space presume that when it comes to the designing aspect of this that if you are going to be designating campsites that are already accessible they are not 800 S feet yeah so depending on the on the the site itself um that was the minim um so certainly there's going to be pull through sites be a bunch of different types of sites um number 10 we just changed it from 50 to 40 again in keeping with what somma and other uh you know more recent Renovations have done um we change that in two spots or three spots in number 10 um each campsite number 11 each campsite shall have an open unoccupied yard of 10 ft along each campsite it was five so we added that to 10 um the number 12 so campsites shall be arranged so that there shall be not more than 10 contiguous campsites on each side of the same street without Separation by a street or landscape strip not less than 5 feet wide uh the landscape buffer strip sh uh continue 5 feet wide along or near campsite lot lines so as to keep separate campsites into groups of not more than 20 surrounded by either landscape or public spaces again very specific um not necessarily applicable to any sort of specific um naturalistic or um sust sustainable design practices the idea is to design with nature on these things so uh to the extent that that just was a lot of very specific criteria it made sense to strike it um again each campsite within a group of 40 is not more than 200 feet from a public open space containing not less than 10% of the area we don't even know what that really means yet so we we struck that and then everything else seemed already in place and logical um so thank you for first of all listening to us on that and you walk to the site oh yeah yeah yeah thank you for thinking we awesome yes you are awesome so we are we were hoping kind of twofold one we were going to submit a request for a zone change to R40 which would make us in keeping with the Comm at least the commercial recreation if we don't get that and you guys get the um forming there may be an Avenue forward there but at the same time it seemed logical and we would like to try to be compliant and have a road map because right now just back to your pre-existing non-conforming the way it's written um you know depending on how you're interpreting it you really can't do anything outside an existing footprint so for example what is so the question became in our discussion John and others what is the existing footprint right is the existing footprint the property line of the campground is the existing footprint one of the structures that you're trying to expand so it would be nice to have a Way Forward I personally I would rather it be conforming so I think that the R40 makes sense um and that you know that to me is is the number one option I'd rather go in that direction and usable land anyway being on M yeah trust me is so I mean I think that makes the most sense as far as the initial we'll submit a request to the select but my understanding is will come before you so at that point we will be respectfully requesting a a positive recommendation and then yep 66% of the vote will get us the zone change there you go um okay is it possible to come back um no you're not allowed back uh talk about potentially talk about um I don't know if this is possible to get on a warrant but this would really um help there are a lot not only you know forget any sort of uh you know expansion or adjustment uh just the normal maintenance of existing structures the need for um bathroom facilities upgrades to those types of things laundry house Etc all those arguably would rely on having this path forward um um yeah I mean and you're talking about may do we I think I'm talking about April time to advertise and that's the thing I don't know if we have time to do public hearing on a zone change over the next two minut a half yeah I mean I'm not sure you have time to do the ad I think we don't technically we we we communicate with the selecting office technically we do no no no I'm talking about the bylaw like to do the bylaw change you'd have to do a public hearing on that I don't think you have time to advertise do that public before the um it I mean it's I don't think it's G to take you know most of the changes here to me make a lot of sense and are pretty reasonable and this is prime example of a bylaw that needs eyes on it and review and it's a little bit dated right right um and so I don't think it's going to take a ton but I just don't think the time is there to advertise hold the hearing and get it on the May meeting I don't aren't you doing that with the pre-existing me foring yes that's already going that's I'm going public hearing right now so so that'll get closed voted on and then submitted for a warrant article okay um can we look into it let you know if there's enough time if you can come to us you can you can do whatever you wish so we would do we would do all the work that we were allowed to do so taking any pressure off of your wonderful planner music to my ears we write them I'll I'll you two to figure it out I'm not seeing the time but um I'll leave the two of you figure it out and L uh yeah um and you know I mean the other thing we have to be a bit respectful to these meetings when as we get to the deadline for town meeting they tend to get longer and longer so um you know let's have some we'll have some respect for that but I'll let the two of you kind of work out as to whether it's doable and how it can be done okay great okay he will be awaiting your call with thank you thank you very much for your time all right have a good night Rob yeah Rob thanks for putting together work having it make sense and that so can you come back next week for a couple more yeah I'm ready for the uh town centerp um all right uh you had something else I do we're g to call this uh board comments St um so in my town plan report I made a reference to the fact that uh according to Town Council we do need to hold a public hearing for the small change to the short-term rental uh bylaw So to that effect and since M left the room I figured that was me announcing it but I figured the board typically I write and submit the suppressive select board as a planning board request to hold the public hearing I'm looking for some degree of acknowledgement and then we can close assum assuming that's AR you gonna run it by Mark is that the one you're gonna run by Mark first or we pass that point uh Mark is the one that is telling me that the process for this AG recommended revision goes back to the town meeting so I will clarify that but I would like to have if you if it go to town meeting get that letter off the get the letter off y um correct so that's fine um I just I really you know it's probably worth let's get let's get some clarity on what the hell exists in that period of time if if we're if we're running out of time between now and the town meeting because of our schedule well this is probably not going to happen for the town meeting necessarily when you say this but short-term rental is it no he wants it done he wants it done in May yeah well you know we we've done it before is March 12th you have to advertise for two weeks which we've already missed this week so you are advertise next week which would be the week of the 18th and the week after that which would be the week of the 25th and then you'd be putting it out for a hearing what the you'd have to open it and close it so there' be have to be no issues and we'd still be getting it to them my heartbeats stronger to hear your reluctance I mean that um but curiosity but what changes are being requested AR they aren't they minor changes that can be handled in a quick open and close turn around in this particular case yes it had to do specifically with I believe the ref the appeal process and time frame associated with it that we batted around a little bit turns out there's a conflict with state law right until the cleanup action is very brief I that's fine I don't that's fine if we need to do it um but I would really like Clarity on because I just don't understand what exists as we sit here right now I like I'm a Gambling Man um so you know I'm not really sure either in light of this entire but I believe the it's the vote of the residents of the Town South as as our law defective as it um may have been with ag review so we have a valid but defective I I suppose there's a a right if if that element were to be exercised for the appeal May there be some sort of that's the answer that's fine I then so we're gonna find out though correct for the three hour discussion um so that's fine good you're up I make a motion close the meeting daa all those in favor say I okay have a good he