##VIDEO ID:8xyoVkqK2pQ## good evening everyone and welcome to the select board joint meeting with the finance committee and Sewer implementation committee meetings being held in a fibered format for Thursday September 5th at 6:m present for the select board is myself Herman Jason prone Vice chair Diane gaale lerk Doug Mogan and our CEO Nicole Parker is here for the members who for finance committee have not met Miss Parker this is Miss Parker hi Miss Parker how are you who Nicole please okay Nicole it is all right chairman Jody from the finance committee need a motion to open our side of this second thank you all those in favor Jo Robert all right and it looks like sir it looks like David meth and Paul Conley are not here this evening F all yours implementation committee there's two of us here G Patriot here [Music] Brown all right as everybody knows we are here because big talk about sewer rates came up couple weeks ago I know it's been a Hot Topic and U I know at Randy since I got on I've been asking you about how to handle this and how to tackle it um you know it's not pretty no matter how you cut this up um so the rates got to go up I guess we're here to talk about that I know we're also here to talk about possible exp expansion extension um ry's given us a lot of information um Randy I'll give you a quick uh rundown there a packet that I sent out yesterday hope we had in front of you there's a couple letters um I suggest you read them talking about financing finances of the SE Department bottom line is it's you know not um there's a very big gap in our Revenue compared to our expenses this isn't new um over the years we've been able to um account for that Gap by taking money from various funds and sources uh the problem is we're running out of some of those fund sources primarily our retain earnings are and so in FY 26 we're I'm projecting is going to be a short fall of about $500,000 um what we have done in the past couple years is well we have I think since the sewers have been implemented there's a we call a Town subsidy so the town pays for a portion of the sewer budget each year um in the past couple years that that contribution has been $224,000 so in my mind the discussion today is got be discussing about that T Subs particular um because the only other Revenue source that we can increase is our sewer rate so make that $500,000 Gap it's either going to come from sewer sewer subsidy the town subsidy or or race so I had asked for finance and Cy to get on the same page you know looking at our upcoming FY 26 budget so we kind of have an idea where we're going to be with that town subsidy um if we do adjust sewer rates I ask that we do that sooner than later I'd like to have that rate in effect by October 1st that's when our next bill cycle starts and I like to have a rates in effect at the beginning of the bill cycle so that's kind of where we're at um I know Jason wants talk about expansion there's also information in the packet about what we've done in the past couple years and where we are with some projects there are some projects that are underway even as of today um but they're not we're not projects are not going to be they're not going to change the budget we're talking you know handful couple dozen services at best individually so but we need you know in order to make a big vent in this we need you know a thousand plus new customers that's just the reality and we're we've been searching J can tell you you've been on a committee for 20 years since exemption extion property and uh We've you know it's been a hard sell sewers if you recall it was uh town meeting in 2016 where we have three votes to fund sewer projects all three got voted down since that point it's been really difficult to try to sell expand sewers phase two is really fizzled out we got the parallel Interceptor in but we can't reach the capacity that we now own so we we tried to reach out to some neighborhoods and get them to connect we sent out informational cards got a bunch of information back but most people can't afford it so you probably remember the PO Mill Street and they came in they did not want to see it so this was one of our last big pushes connect that was the Southwick sewer Massacre of 2016 if I remember snow that day it was no snow it was we that's when we connected to the school campus and we had figured we'd get it all done in the same area right why so what was pH was phase one down by the Lakes Phase One was in three parts and it started in the center of town and it ended up down at bus and essentially that was government funded nice a nice Government funding contract and the betterments were pretty low they were 8,800 bucks per edu which is an equivalent dwelling you and so we first we categorized what everything in town should be whether be commercial or residential and we determined how many be use each one was so their rate was based on that but a single family home was 8,800 bucks which at the time was a deal and the town agreed to hook up and what was the reason why we decided to move that work well there were a whole bunch of reasons a lot of people would fail in title five uh the opportunity presented itself this is something that had been in process before my time with Earl Murphy he recruited me way back when and apparently the grant money was really good back then but no one was seriously interested in it so it took until about 1998 99 it's a really started to take off it had to go to town vot a couple of times a lot of people got involved and eventually I think we ended up with 40 47% funding where been 80 something originally and that was still pretty good compared to what you can do now and you know the need to clean things up it got the nitrogen away from the lakes and clean the Lakes up a little bit some people had the idea you know one and done you don't have to pump your tanks out every 10 years or whatever it seemed to take off so the need was based on the availability the funding and you know there what was that it wasn't really a need it was an opportunity that's what I'm trying to get what was phase one and why did we initially start sewer projects and if it was more because of people were failing Title Five and they needed some alternative fine so the second phase of it now is you're saying is you have extra capacity and it is just getting so expensive that you want to pass force or pass the cost on to other members of the community well there was a different approach instead of just leaving it with the people who are already on sewers so the people who have septic systems who are responsible for maintaining them replacing them when it's needed and nobody will help them you want us to be paying for everybody else it's everybody's County okay but I I I'm just sticking up for the residents right now but now you've got to convince me what is the real need to the community what would be the effects if we don't do this just besides it's too expensive what are the environmental issues right you really got to convince me of that you got to convince me too I'm with you that's understandable it's basically we have the capacity so we thought we might try to take advantage of it and that's why we sent these polls out to see if the towns people would be interested in it as well and of course the first thing they want to know is how much and how soon so we came up with different scenarios phase two is completely different than phase one phase one had a kind of a mandatory attachment to it where as phase two you don't have to connect if you don't want so it was one of those you get to choose type of situations in phase two no one's going to force you to in Phase One if the thing ran past your house you were obligated to up unless you had a hardship or could prove that you could pass title as far as being a cheerleader for the project it's been very difficult we're here because we volunteered to be and we wanted to get the thing done as much as possible I live on the lake and I was very concerned about my area because it does take the nitrogen out of the soil and clean things up others would have the idea that well I don't really want to have to worry about pumping out my tank every so so the immediate need maybe not so much it's just something that if it became available and the funding was there it might might have been something we wanted to take advantage of that was the thinking back then as far as today goes it's a whole new ball game it's more expensive we don't even call them vets anymore I think we end in connection connection fees and a lot more than it was 25 years ago so what type of cost will be passed on to the resident for clicking up versus saying $1.8 million $6.2 million that's the town's piece of it but how much would it cost a resident to hook up so if we did all this infrastructure and we give them the choice to hook up or not that's the key why would we want to spend this money if nobody's going to want to hook up too expensive right well you'd get a Stu and you'd have it available but a lot of people didn't even want to see that so what what is our hookup thing do so it's a formula based on the project cost so the cost of the town is say ,000 right and there's a thousand properties that we tie in each property gets a b simpli so we pass along all the costs to all the potential Property Owners if if somebody chose not to but now they want to where it passes their home what are they going to pay to hook up the connection fees well again well that's it's a formula it could be it could be it could be 20,000 this property in this neighborhood and it could be 40,000 over here that all depends on the total project cost and it's up to the home at the time it ran by their home phase one was different it was all yeah included Randy so just to clarify just because I I think it you know I'm I'm falling behind so phase one when it was done it was all in so when they came by with the sewers they did the on lot work too they connected your they connected you to the Sewer they gave you a grinder pump if you needed one the town still owns those you maintain them right and um there was a bit of a I'd say it's a disp if you really want to look at it um in that the unlock cost can vary significantly lot to lot this house is 50 feet from the street this one's 500 feet from the street this one's got ledge this one's got a hill you name it um and also having seen this done elsewhere uh in the Commonwealth and outside the Commonwealth every Community does that and then phase two they say that was a huge mistake so or a huge calculation issue so they they will the phase two and later uh a they don't own the grinder pumps in perpetuity so that you're not you know the town's not on the hook for an ongoing cost forever for those grinder pumps which wear out and break and whatever and and secondly is that they the the lot owner is responsible for the on lot so we stub the town stubs at the lot line and then you are responsible as the homeowner to connect your your home to the Sewer so it that variable cost of the sewer part the unlock gets conveyed to the where it belongs really uh in my opinion to the to the homeowner or or business owner as the case may be um but I think what and and Jerry you know by the way thank you for 20 plus years of service on you know on a fairly thankless role right it's been um you know there's a lot of forethought and a lot of work that goes into being on um where you're going to put sewers and how you're going to do it um to me I think what I see is that the cost of the the sewer implementation committee did a very good job of forethought of planning for future phases so when the the sewer plant was constructed in Westfield and our parallel Interceptor was designed it was obviously designed with way more users on it than what we've ended up with so far and it would have been nigh impossible to forecast that the the rate of increase or the the number of users added to the sewer system would be as low as it is today when they made that decision 15 plus years ago so what we have is you know a situation where we have over capacity of uh um you know of capacity to flow to Westfield and not enough people on it um so you're gonna and I also will say that you know the the initial sewer project the the the goal was to come through the center and then along the Lakes especially and the goal was there to there was a there's a lot of small Lots over by the lake that are not capable of being continued to be serviced by septic there was a lot of nitrogen flow into the ground and thus into the lake that created a water quality issue on the lake the fact that the sewers um have been there have aided the cleanliness of the lake and cleaning up of the of con um along with other Investments that were made at Conan the Alum treatment and some other things um which have greatly uh enhanced the values of the properties down on those lakes and I think we don't give this enough shrift in our discussion of that is yes we I think I don't know the exact dollar amount but it's probably a quarter a million dollars or more that's in the tax rate today that's been subsidizing the sewer um for years and we we you know it's been it's not a secret we've been openly discuss ing it and talking about it we know that it's a health issue right if you have bed septic systems that's detrimental to the lake it's detrimental to neighbors it's it's it's generally a bad situation and there was not a great remedy for those septic wise other than putting tight tanks and having them pumped every so often so the sewer was a solution to that problem there's other places in town um the project that they brought in for powdermill road as an example um town meeting approved around $600,000 in design went to town meeting with that you know the estimate for design was authorized $600,000 to design the project on powder and mo Road and all the woods the fernwoods the Birch Woods over in that area nice dense area would have been good to get those you know get those users it's getting tougher and tougher to replace septic systems on those smaller Lots in in that area um and they also had designed and worked through a design on Conan Road when conoman Road was being reconstructed along uh from from 10 and 202 to the Connecticut line would have been a great opportunity to put to connect the existing sewers and bring that up to the business area up at along KGAN Road and all those residences there and the business area up where uh the Dunkin Donuts McDonald's and that uh I think it's called The Crossings and then Big Y um which those two properties in particular have suffered continual um septic failures and it's it's it drives what kind of businesses can operate there and what level of services they can provide because those systems are always in failure and having to be redone or or worse uh unfortunately at that meeting in 2016 there was it reached a fever pitch and town meeting uh dis disapproved the funding for Powder Mill they took out Kuman Road at the same time it would have been at a significant savings yes the funding wasn't as great from the federal government but the road was already open we just had would to dig a Little Deeper to put the line in but the state would have come through and put the road back for us at the end because they were redoing the road anyway um and then there was a third project I forget which one it was but there was a third project I don't even think it got to a hearing part of that meeting they just threw it out and voted it down before we even really discussed it um but those were two significant ones but you know in short that's the shortage reason of why we're carrying the subsidy is we don't have enough users for the capacity we we've bought and paid for um and you know I I think we have kind of a little bit of a fundamental disagreement on this board that we need to reconcile of uh you know what should that subsidy be I I hear your what you're saying is you know what why should people that are not on it subsidize those that are and is you know unless there's a compelling reason there are other things in our budget without going into a ton of detail there's other things in our budget that the whole town subsidizes that not everybody takes advantage of there's and there's a a good valid reason for it whether it's Health whether it's safety what you know you name it right um and this to me this is one of them and you've got to and once you're on the sewer you cannot get off it there's not really an option to unplug your sewer and now go back to a septic um and there becomes a certain point from a either from taxation or from a sewer sewer rates that it becomes untenable to maintain a household if you if the sewer rates quadrupled in order to close a deficit because we only have 800 people or 800 issu 8 800 customers on you take that take that half a million divide 00 and do the math and you go well it becomes untenable for a person that's on sewer to pay that that amount and you know they it was a project that was brought in there's some other planning so you know from the the the issue of how you work a subsidy or how you you know or not know I think we have to reconcile it as and that's why we're you know part of the reason we're having the meeting and the other p is how do you is there opportunity within Current financial planning and you know is there available uh grants and opportunities to extend the sewer system and are there Pockets no pun intended of of places that we could go with the sewers that would land us a significant benefit to the people that would be served by those sewers that have problems with their existing system or or have recently invested in s such a system that the 15-year life of it will be over by the time we ever get sewers to that area so that that's the short I don't disagree with you one that the benefits the whole town R but when I'm asking about the cost of poome I just want to make sure that it's not a nominal fee for the person getting the benefit of say $1,000 and then when my septic system fails and I'm nowhere near this it's going to cost me 15 grand to replace my septic system but 100 that but anyway it's 100% it's going to cost you $30,000 What you know what whatever but I'm I'm just TR trying to make sure that other people in the town are not absorbing an absorbent amount of this and that the people who are having the problems and their septics are failing that and they're not you know like oh yeah great it only cost me $1,000 when it wouldn't cost me $15,000 to try something like that then they're also going to pay the sewer and user fee on top of that right for every gallon of water there's a charge for that water on the outf so they may pay $1,000 in that neighborhood or 10,000 in that neighborhood but now forever you're going to replace your septic once forever they're paying water twice yeah I said $1 thousand doll you know that was probably bad analogy it's a lot more than it's probably a lot more than I just want to make sure that I'm getting across that I don't want something to be so small for the person who actually need actually needs it you know there there's one that fail they're the ones that are running out of options and the people who have good septic systems good options even if they have to replace it that that was the incentive people pH one a large portion no you're right Karen and it's also part of with septics it's not the if it's the when right of when you're going to have to redo or replace your septic system and at some point there was a rough equivalence even in phase two gut shot right replacing your and I'll without I'm probably exaggerating it was $30,000 to replace the septic system it was $30,000 to connect to the sewers give or take right close enough money and so it was a a practical equivalence what happened was Kuman Road was the poster child for it in my opinion was we went up and down on road and talk to people like well I just replaced my SE system two years ago I spent $220,000 why would I spend $30,000 now so we change the rules to say look we're going to go buy your house you don't have to change you don't have to connect to the Sewer but when you but you're done replacing your septic so your brand new septic system it's good for 20 years or 15 years 25 years great but in 25 years when you go to connect you will have to connect you cannot replace your septic system again to me that was a a a fair compromise the town actually shouldered kind of loaned out the money to do the construction of the project but that connection fee was eventually going to come due from that user um and then their unlock cost would be when when they went to connect it they would crush their septic and connect to the Sewer um unfortunately we didn't get enough votes at town meeting because there was others in town and some folks on Kuman that you know killed that whole project Fernwood Birchwood was the whole was pretty much the same thing right there's just always a mix of people that oh I just did it last week now you're asking me to pay to connect and but anyone who's got a septic system just realistically you will be replacing it whether you're replacing the leech field or what have you or doing other maintenance to it and then the other part of it is Karen is when you do connect to the Sewer you know when you connect to when you have a septic and you spend 15 or 20 or $25,000 to replace your septic you're you get one bill you're done and you're good for however long that's going to be when you sign up for sewer you get the unlock cost but now you're also going to get a bill every month for your flaw whether you're paying a water bill or some other estimated number you are now going to be on that forever and that's part of the calculus to it but you're also paying taxes on that on top of that you're also subsidizing your own sale how sorry you're subsidizing yourself as well you're paying twice so and you know I'm I'm here to like I want to know Randy how many I've looked at the numbers and stuff how many people aren't on it that could be on it right now that it's there they should be forced on it I'm sorry this is the one thing I I I'm adamantly about and and and I'm going to reference back to when I lived in Westville several years ago they did um the Eastwood Acres area and they've done the Munger Hill area when it came by like you said in the past you didn't have a choice really at this point it shouldn't be a choice for the people that can hook up there should be some sort of race period and and and I hate like you miss you said Mr moan somebody that spent this type of money make I've asked Nicole to look into uh all sorts of grants for hookups um one of the other things we need to tell people this is all the more reason to start conserving water I've asked Nicole also to look and see if there's um like eversource has these green fundings that they'll come out and they'll pay there's uh I done some reading there are some areas where you can come out get these grants they'll come out and they'll change their fixtures for you I mean one of the biggest examples of it is right here in town hall in the men's room I don't know about the ladies room you can turn the two faucets on you can t see the difference it's got like a little shower head on one of them the other one comes pouring out you know so it gives people an incentive to conserve as well by saying subsidizing that as well on your electric 100% yes yeah can I just throw an alternative you're talking about you know are you going to pay more to hook up than somebody else or is it going to be Equitable in other towns Hadley South Hadley for instance all users of Butters and owners of developed property which can be directly served by public water and sewer are subject to the water and sewer fees whether you're hooked up or not sometimes do it that way that's their subsidy is everybody pays in an out user too on yeah wow we don't do that yeah even if you have a well you're gonna pay well sewer if the town brings that service near your residence they you said can be served right it can be served yep yep so that's that's what that's other ways towns do it everybody pays for it until it gets to you you're still funding it but if you're so on the phase two we do have locations like you said there's not many right now or maybe there are that are passed by the sewer that are not connected today because they didn't have to connect at the time so in phase one I think every property is tied so since then there was the first on the sheet here the first project is point gr road so about four four or five years ago Lakewood Village Department complex at the in Lakewood they actually paid the run the sewer from the terminal sewer by Gro Street all the way up the road to tie in their last four buildings right and as part of the project they were required we asked them to put in STS to I think there's 13 properties along so at the time I had some Outreach those 13 Property Owners I had a you know like a little informational hearing I invited them to it sent the letters I said by the way you have a sewer St available to your property if you want to tie in let me know because it's not required but it's available if you want it and since then nobody has offered take over 13 so that's the only location where I know there's you know there are services that could be connected today that are good so but everyone I'm sorry D yep goad sure so so everyone else that up where a sewer line is passed that a connections available is connected to that I'm pretty certain all the people from two are tied in more or less all the people from phase two that didn't tie in were given the option are now tied in pH ADV phase two everything that's out there is Phase One Plus Lakewood Village in Lakewood Village did you tell me there's one area of it that is still not they have one building so they have 10 building enough property they had one building their Building B which they had just built a new seic system for they wanted to okay maximize that investment and then at that point they would and they did their own infrastructure too plus the road soy this first page here where it says area one two three four and so on are these areas that setic is not SE sewer is already available if you read the description it tells you the status so some of them are so like the first one Point Road there is sewer and we can connect their area two is De so there's a condominium complex that was approved by planning board at the corner of Depot Street and po Mill Road they will TI the sewers uh but that construction has not yet started but when they do there'll be 100 units that be okay so this is a list of allal connection cost to expand is zero because it's the town's cost to expand right so because the sewer is already there yeah or at Depot Street the developer is going to get it there no it's there right the sewers there sewers on their rail trail yeah but they have to connect to they have get it in their property get it to the rail trail to the road it's going down the road okay so area three Hudson Drive again I kind of listed these in kind of like um decreasing order of potential so Hudson Drive Wy way we're working on a project now to Lo the Hudson Drive to S West Road through a grant and as part of that we're looking to install a sewer line along Hudson Drive and potentially connect those properties there's a lot of commercial use there there is a large vacon lot at the very end Hudson Drive that is app for development and I think that would be a good future sewer connection but that's probably five years away best area four so we are actually undertaking a project that's under construction today on Bungalow Street we're getting money through uh CD cdbg grants and we're as part of that project on bungal putting in a a dry sewer and there's I not there's 19 properties on Bungalow street that will have a stove when this project is done and that's you know by the end of the year and in addition to that we're also working on future lock R projects on North Lake Avenue and Summer Drive that are you know three four or five years out and we will plan put a sewer line mil products as well so there's potential there so area four should the the dry line for 19 to BLS that would fall under phase one for for dollars doesn't matter at this point there's really no phase one phase two kind of just they all go so do you know what would be them so yeah I think so the way the formula works is it's there's a cost I think it's $2,600 which is the base and then it's plus any Town cost so so that s at the beginning right if there's if it's a $100,000 project and there's 100 properties right each property gets $1,000 so you add that $1,000 to each property so it's 2600 so but but in this project because we're getting money through a grant there's no Town cost yes but you have to make one this I just want to say I just want to say part of what is being faced today and not pointing fingers at anybody was you know back in looking at these rates in 99 there was no rate increase until 2004 5 years later there was no rate increase from there for another seven years cost of living changed in those years the wages we know we have Labor contracts we know those changed there's no reason those shouldn't have changed it was kind of shortsighted not to increase those on a regular basis or not to charge at least a fixed minimum hookup even if this project it wasn't completed yet is funded by it ended in 2004 no I'm just saying just saying part of the reason we're here is being too soft I guess oh okay if if the if the if the fund had a balance it was yeah okay we don't need to raise it but yeah you really should have for this future need is what I'm saying pointing no fingers at anybody I think it started in 20 or right after phase one was complete the thinking being you don't want to raise the rates when it's not even done yet that might raise a few eyebrows I think we're talking two different things there are we I know I know we I know we are talking two different things oh I see um so when I when I talk about the project cost right so it's the town's Cost Plus 2600s that's that's the connection as ited today yes for I don't disagree that the rates need to be adjusted no I'm talk and beans yeah there needs to be a standard Fe not based on the cost whether it's in this neighborhood or that neighborhood gota be everybody's got to pay that same thing that that's unless there's the diff I understand sometimes this the the Run distance to the house that's different that's an onsite cost not your hookup cost but that's just that's how it was is there needs to be a fixed a fixed minut and I think that's a 26 I I think that's a $2,600 the fix minum so I went to exercise with with was legal counsil time we came up with that number that that number is like to P 26 4626 okay here five years okay okay but we projected future cost so it was intended to make for future improvements to the sources and that were needed that that's how that that connection feed number was was established I agree could be Revisited we can talk about that okay okay but no one's connecting to that fee isn't really matter even the 18 decision is you're GNA connect understood but from what we're hearing there's 20ish connections to enforce that on a great day right yeah my big question has been let's talk about Southwick Village we you and I have talked about this quite a bit tell me about that in incent the consent order so that's project um six six on here and then Doug that was the vote that third vot you were thinking of yeah we were gonna come we were GNA design an extension basically from the DPW facility all the way to um so South Village is uh used to be the American in they are under consent order to either connect to a municipal sewer system or construct an onyc fail DP granted this I think this consent order was probably issued I think maybe 10 years ago a while a long time ago since then they were new property owners and they worked out an extension with d so that that requirement is still in effect but I think they have seven more years left to fulfill that condition so I've had some discussions with the property owner I don't know dog if you guys have as well um certainly there's there's a a need on their end to connect I think they're looking to others like the town to bring a sewer line to their property they have to tie him but in order to get from where we are to their property is very far and very expensive there a we we toyed with a couple ways of doing it one was to go across the field from the Interceptor yeah where it goes into West then there's a bunch of you know land type issues another was to come right up 10 and 202 North I think it stops at captain yeah we we likely would have run across from DPW is now there the open field you would have ran a sewer line across that field to College Highway then then up North can I throw some perspective on that and just real quick I there was also uh windfields along the path on the way there they just recently spent about a million dollars to construct their own facility there and Rosewood they're both there were three in at the time so good for 10 and and one last note it's been just I think it's more anecdotal is whenever you have a large shared system they fail at an alarming rate over and have a much shorter life expectancy than a single residential home the engineering and the mechanics of it I can't tell you I think maybe it's because they don't ever sit long enough to have everything settle out and have you know what the clearer water flow out to the distribution system but that's just my opinion but historically that's been true whether it's the apartments whether it's commercial users that have consistent use throughout a 24-hour period or you know a large apartment dwelling like the um the villages or whatever it's called now and Windfield etc etc did you say Rosewood just did a new I don't know about Rosewood I know the American in I know that Windfield Windfield Rosewood has two systems I know one of them was replac maybe 8 10 years ago other system so this 7 million's coming going north what about hooking in in Westfield them coming south and pushing this issue that was another issue perhaps we thought as it comes to Rison that much I know come to us I mean we're already thought about that as well I had uh maybe a preliminary discussion with a former city engineer in Westfield couple years ago about that and he's no longer there but there was it it the response like got was there was no interest in Westfield to do that we're paying them already for flow we're not get it kind of we're renting it I think there's ways around that I think I I think the cheapest option would be go to go to Westfield so they have basically three options right go North to Westfield come South through Southwick you know through college highway or to do an on-site treatment those are really the three options going north to West M probably the cheapest ones but still several million dollar projects that in my mind they be responsible and that would be with their cooperation can I throw some numbers out sure Southwick Village is 100 they would be individual meters Southwick Village they have uh 40 meters in the property each building has a meter that be 40 still based on water right to get like U like would they being you know we did our rates where we have the tier two we did the multif family we did multif family homes yeah as tier two and they're maxed at 30 how would these be treated in sections we need it for our it be 186 accounts I know I think I think that's a discussion for five years so just for let's assum their individual accounts if we spent $7,300 to get that in place Southwick Village Rosewood and Winfield would be 308 units and we said the average the the minimum charge is $352 a year minimum charge that would generate $108,000 in user fee to spend 73 to get it there that scares Jesus that makes no sense to me that's why the cost is built on the burden of the property right grant forr but we keep saying there's no grants available for expand there are they're not what they used to be so we're talking about putting 7 million3 on the town in addition to whatever we're subsidizing today to generate 110 why the rates have to go up by 50% and that I can do the same calculation on area five minimum charge for there to spend six2 would generate $50,000 a year in user grood makes no sense so I'm in my opinion we have to share a big increase in the user fees and a big increase on the tax base the rate payer the user has to share the largest portion of this and I'm going to say they didn't choose to hook up they were forced to hook up it's not going to change my opinion they're the user if I may just really quick I just came from a town that had a huge sewer issue and um no they pay almost $1300 a year in AVU because it is us an Enterprise fund so it has to stay within itself but these users who don't choose they're just on it because like here it's rural so a lot of houses aren't on it it's more The Villages um so if you're if it's 386 a year right now is the minimum minimum the minimum what is the average five build you five so I mean it's it hurts it sometimes it's just a necessary evil for a utility utilities are very expensive that's $5.98 right is what the 50% increase would be right now because like when I looked at these numbers the only way you start to get that subsidy coming down and that's where it should go for the rest of the Town it should continue to go down I I have no problem with us paying sun because we are a town of southware but the rate payer has to pay for the benefit of the system and I'm not I I do care you know I don't want to be quoted as I've been before I care I don't want to raise anybody's rates but this cannot continue to be on the back of the Town it cannot and it's to the benefit of the Town it I'm not going to disagree completely but I'm going to disagree partially on that the majority of the benefit is not going to the rest of us if we raise those R the one that's going to be affected the most is the middle tier at the 1438 today again this is why I said this is why we talk about conserving water that's it actually makes it worse doesn't it well you got a point there I'm all for conserving water believe me so if anyone's going to quote me I'm not going to say please you know go turn on your f and go on vacation that's not what I'm saying but actually in this particular case because we we bought capacity at the plant we have capacity in the line the more flow we have to Westfield the more we can reduce that you know obviously the rate payers pay more it reduces the deficit and thus the subsidy you know hence you know one other um thing to you know so conserving water is a great thing everyone should do it and regardless of what's going to happen here with a subsidy or not a subsidy right so that's that's just Pro because water is a limited huh they're still 100% And and you know people get um you know people can get a separate meter if they won't want to count that against their sewer flow we've you know we've done those measures as well you know one other thing and I just want to bring this up Randy's covered it here a little bit on is you know we also have to look at you know potential future development in the industrial park and as and getting sewers to that to try to offset some of this to gain flow right there's places along Hudson that makes no difference if they connect sewer or not they they've got a stable operation they run they have no water usage other than you know less than a household for you know an 880,000 or more square foot building right it's it's just bathrooms and you know hand washing no cooking no industrial process Etc there's others that have industrial process today that incur significant cost because they have to boil off stuff because of um stuff that could flow to a sewer but cannot by by law be put into a septic and then there's also folks that have are would not entertain constructing a facility in an industrial park or anywhere else for that matter that's not on a SE that's the only one I would vote to expand so but you know I think you know we have a I think the of increase of the subsidy needs to be slowed and I think that the amount that the the rate payer pays has to go up and then I I I don't disagree Diana's if we have to take a look at uh indexing the connection fee to some inflationary number or something else to reflect the actual cost but I think in the grand scheme of things if it's 26 and change the unlock the expansion of the unlock costs have mushroom over the year so is the cost of replacing your septic right it's more than doubled in the last decade or so to my understanding so when you come down and and you also made a very valid point to me I had really thought of it that way to be honest with you was take that math you 38 users and you know uh five or8 you know $500 a piece or whatever and then divide that into 7.3 million equals years and that's um plus the interest I was just keeping it simple it's still forever so it's forever and another forever with the interest going to increase the need for another subsid but so it so it doesn't really do a whole lot for us for reducing the um the current situation even if we put more you know you put more users on it yeah it's going to start to push that down as we get more flows but it doesn't really solve the net net of it of it all if you rely on just on andm it's going to take a while to catch up till you pay off the main Deb on M will eventually operation and maintenance of your system will eventually take over and probably needs to increase like it has been doing I see everybody's Point anybody else got any thoughts these are valid points here yeah I do so despite what we think um the South wake what are they called now Village southill they have to do something per the consent order seven years that's what I've said to that that comes up quick and I think we if they have to do something we have a responsibility to leverage that if we so that's just I don't know what the answer is this is my first sewer anything meeting but it just it makes sense to me that if they have to do something and it's not put an on-site treatment facility we've got to do something that's that's just my my piece and I don't have any seven it's 73 for no benefits well I think you have to that's for us to get it to the front door well that's not for us to get it there they got it so what is the collateral but Alita I think you have to look at that in in from two lenses too is if we come to and go yeah we'll gladly do this project but you're obligated you have this descent degree right and so you've got one arm behind their back it's 7.3 million for us to get to you and they're going great we're going to spend 6.25 to build our own to too right so then you that and then you're you know you know it's a whole different that's their other hand if you're halfway with on three you know that's where you got to figure out what's gonna how that would play out and then you know if you did the come north coming south from Westfield I don't know how many users or what the BET net benefit would be yes it might be less expensive but if they're going to have to do it um you know you're probably better off looking at the coming nor Prospect so the houses across the street that are being built on the course are those all SE yes there's no sewer service there and they and um they're right there on the line no they're too far away not that CL and they're too new they're not going to hook up no not now they're be years before they need to I agree with this Doug I agree with you as far as it needs to slow but the 50% number is something we have to hit pretty soon you know I don't know how much more the town's going to exor you know I agree with this year was 224 last year was 2 the year before was 247 227 before that 239 300,000 in FY 2020 so it's come down on the town side but but if we don't there the 250 that I'm aware of you guys have been through the budget process you've seen how tight we we've become right so where do I find 250 well we have to increase subsidy yeah somewhere I'm not asking to get rid of the subsidy I've never never wanted to do that we justly gota the the impetus needs to be and the the ratio needs to be more towards the user you know I it's not something I want to do but you know and we talk about options and whatnot like I said again I'm going to bring up Westfield again but you have to be on it if it's there you have to be on it I mean expanding the system it it doesn't seem economically feasible right now I think we're there though Jay I mean just not to be contrarian I just think we're there there's maybe 18 to 20 users in total not no I'm saying expanding the system is not something I really think is feasible no but I'm from what you're saying is I don't think from what they said except for the ones on point r Road there are zero users that are passed by a sewer that we have if we went there tomorrow and said we're coming to construct it tomorrow putting a bill up there's 20 including the the number on pow on uh Point gr that were just put in within the last couple of years and then you know we're going to do that other streak um or that was just done that's where I was you know I've talked to Randy in the past like when we're opening up these roads you know what would the cost be to drop a dry line in and because at some point I think the town whe whether I'm still here or dead or whatever we're all gone so at some point if there's sewers you got to you got to start pushing the is you have to start pushing people on to it you know really I've talked to Randy not so much about exp these these zeros these are the ones I want to hit right now absolutely we got to put in those dry lines and then at some point you've got to say to those redant you've got five years and you got to hook up whether you got a system or not five years because within five years you're going to pay to have that pumped couple time especially if you're around the Lakes there's a high water table these things fail so that's what happened but that's what happened at KGAN we had a once in a generational opportunity really I mean that the state's going to do a full- depth reconstruction of 168 so we put together the project we went to town meeting no one was obligated to connect it was exactly what you just described 100% and it would have come from you know past sheep pasture I think I don't know where it came from at that end but it came all the way to the center at 10 and 202 and it was it was the vote was um not close no I but I don't think people realize they're going to continue paying more 100% they did the argument was made and it was it becomes very personal to a person of what their particular cost was going to be for that project with their location on congan and you know frankly it's a it's a blessing and a curse of our current of our form of government we have the most open and transparent form of government you could have it's open town meeting anybody can go and by the number of people that participate at town meeting when you got all of conoman Road and Fernwood Birchwood to all show up at a town meeting yeah kind of saw how that meeting was gonna go and like I said the third one I don't think it even you know that was probably a very viable project yeah we didn't even get to discussion on it because you know everyone could see where the winds were blowing on that and just went away we actually had meetings there with the residents we had two I think we went there and we asked them how they felt about you know an increase or including the owners and we also had meetings with the owners at the end of Kong Road Don us yeah Big W people McDonald's has been failing since I work there as a kid they all wanted to know two things how much how soon yeah and and and they were going to be a financial participant in the deal if we at least got to a project was you know tenable and we never got there and like I said KGAN Road was open we would have had to dig another I don't know five or six or eight feet down because it was a really deep deep deal but it would have been Pennies on the dollar versus going now and ripping up Kuman Road and putting well we're Neely not do problem getting the rest of the town there to offet it'll never happen pill Road 300 600,000 they approved it you guys the design work you did everything we're all set to go next town meeting everything I voted down and town meeting voted to approve the design funding which that's you know just adding insult injury and just to pile on we then spent $1 million dollars to connect the schools and ran a high pressure line right past those neighborhoods to get to the rail trail because the school was also on a consent order signed by a former superintendent yeah so as part of the the construction project up there and it was an unanticipated million dollar cost that was bonded and paid for by uh basically the taxpayers because it went it went to the school so we paid 80 something perc of it but and it was a shame because that could have been incorp it was incorporated in that project that would have picked up that entire neighborhood now it's designed and built in such a way that there's really not a great way to put many more users on that we did we Didion a couple Fe right what was our total cost to date any idea these are just the remaining loans this is not all of the loan milon you know close was it 58 like Suffield so how come they're thinking it's 58 is that realistic that they had a consultant come up with so they had several outs there was three scenarios and all of varying degrees of areas so the largest was 15 million for the tall area but they did break it up into small SE the whole town just on the lake just the lake just the lake mils they got a mountain between their existing plant and where they wanted to go so the the best way to avoid the mountain is to come to southw with that side of this side of the mountain with the flow from around the lakes and then that was I so when they break it up high by edu right for Homeowner cost it was about $50,000 per v as a connection which is not far off from right if that's the case maybe discuss about this not yet not this one in the past there's been plenty of discussion yeah there's but I was thinking about Nicole a fresh face going and talking to her counterpart over there and getting a a new temperature for it see if there's I think the temperature's typed right in this thing let me read it it comes and goes they it we've seen it I've seen it twice in my tenure yeah and it's come up again and then I think they forget how much it costs then they have a discussion about it then they realize what it costs and then they their board changes but could they pH it the same way we did did they phase it or is that phase one for them I think that would be like if they had three phases that would be phe three and and I have the report I sh sh and Randy what just just to play out that because it I think that that would be an ideal scenario right because that 58 million first of all that whatever x x million dollars it is is not Southwick taxpayer money it's they're going to connect to our sewer whatever the the cost is to for them to get it but what it does is put Clowes in the line to to Westfield what would that do to the subsid so that I mean that's kind of the I don't know if you can answer it directly we could charge subfield right for gallon but then also West is going to charge us that's what I'm asking so now we can have a you know a Delta so that there's a say a service fee or whatever you know through you want to call it so we we're we're handling their flow we can assess that but I don't know that's not going to be Aon that's kind I'm leading the witness I'm kind of asking so what does that do for us because I think part so how many gallons are we estimating and if it's a bu 150,000 gallon there's aort 150,000 they did a report different like a year or so five years ago did they do that report they did they did one like 10 years ago and then they Revis it about three years ago yeah they had talked about three scenarios one of the scenarios was looking up to our system yeah and they haven't done anything I know someone saying I bet you we can leverage that against sou because they're having a problem but here's the thing right these are all great ideas but we have a problem today and none of this is going to fix today's problem no that's I was just about the thing where we beat this dead horse yeah you know the zeros I think you know you're doing it already Randy you're putting in the dry stubs and I think those neighborhoods are going to have to at some point we're going to have to come up with something like I said a fiveyear window if it's now in your neighborhood you gotta hook up you know but other than that I I know there's no appetite to 7 million three million nowhere not maybe talk to Westfield and you know see about eventually hooking up American in and they're going to have to pay for some of it so that's about the only options I see right now so again I know myself and Miss Gale are completely at odds with the the increase but I I I well right now if you continue 220 subsidy on the town you're looking at scenario 16 or scenario six that's why I was looking at 50 or whatever that starts to change things mean you know it doesn't have to be 50 at once in we could do it every six you know not proposing keeping the subsidy where it is I'm I'm suggesting raising it as well raising the subsidy yes increasing how much the subsidy is in addition to raising rates that's not what I'm that's not what I think that's that my opinion is completely different that why would we increase our subs this the whole point is to bring you know I mean you that rate I'm again I'm sorry I hate to throw that on them not doubling the user it's $5.98 I know but if we raised the subsidy 20% it would be 4 cents on a tax bill but still got what 8800 houses that are going to say why am I paying this $4,000 contribution additional contribution from the subsidy is 4 cents to the tax but then You' got an 8% increase on average per year and you're we're going to be right back here doing this or maybe not us but you're gonna be right back here doing the same thing and I know where I stand on this my opinion is not going to change on this so when the time comes if the vote comes you know and you guys are somewhere else I know where I'm going to be you know this is you know I I I do care I don't want to raise anybody's rates I mean remember my first meeting this this rate was the first thing I had to do I know I'm just saying the increase can't be all literally my first meeting they're like you got to raise rates that was a total coincidence I assure you Mr Peron um so that from this in fisal 18 the subsidy was $384,000 that seemed to be a high Watermark and it bounced around it was 2453 380 338 300 239 227 220 247 and this year is 224 was 2018 Randy when did you start here 2013 so so the the so go back to that so if the IMA payment so when Westfield up facility when we bought our say didn't we pay for some of that that was our debt payment right so there was a line in the budget and that's that so our town contribution the town subsidy basically match that de payment that's why it's you know kind of bounced around yeah so but I think you know what one way to and just looking at this if you if you limit or we talk about you know and you've done a great job with uh double digit numbers of scenarios here is if you limit this is kind of alluding to what I I said as well is if you if you somehow limit the town contribution and C that it's going to drive you to your rate and what's your rate increase so so where you're at what was the number scenario could be 16 or 13 right so because if you just go if you just sortify the town you know subsidy that's 303,000 and the 16 is 291,000 so you're going to have to subid on 16 is 220 correct yeah oh that's increas in Revenue sorry I'm looking at the 220 so somewhere between you know in those numbers is where you're going to have to you just you just can't you you're still going to have to carry that subsidy and I think you you take the historical median and kind of come to that and say okay it's not going to exceed this and then we've got to engineer our way around the rest of it and and then it gives you by setting policy of saying look this is not going to exceed and I'm just picking not going to exceed for sub should not ex yeah for the next years five or eight years scario 13 300,000 303 and and you would need to raise rates by you know it's telling you what the rate increase is going to be at 20 and whatever percentage but that gets you to some level of certainty and then like I said you know whether we decide to go ahead and you're right Randy you know even with these even the zero doll ones and even the subfield ones doesn't really engineer us out of any of this and subfields even if you say go today is 10 years no doubt yeah even if you said go today and build the whole thing it's 10 years I mean I can't even imagine the regulatory paperwork having to cross state lines with sewage and then putting it in the westfi river I can't even imagine because the federal government is going to get involved and then um if they ever start building I mean that's that's kind right yeah we don't know if it comes in it's only and it's 100 users still 100 users yeah one you know one on eight more than we have now right so what has been our average subsidy in the last say 10 years you youw all those oh they right here I can add it together you want to give it to me probably about want give it to me do the average you look on the July 18th letter on page three it's not the last 10 years right the middle rown subsidy and then you see the last five years and there were so many different reasons why it jumped up yeah but your increase your revenues are going to come down because your betterment fees are all going away as well better yeah going down yeah right I mean I guess did the key is finding that balance P saying stach correct and the rate increase especially if we can lock it in listen 303 moving forward 275 you know only you go 275 including I know I know there's some extraneous numbers in there but if you take that straight average it's 275 so between you know the 13 and 14 but if we have to absorb more I can stomach 13 with the 20 40 and 50% increase yeah with the largest increase going to the heavy users um correct yeah I can't go up that's the one thing you know I definitely so these the the rates and the different um ideas that Randy came I you know I could probably buy into that one where we set a rate that you know Subs that stays for five six whatever the 303 and revisit after five yeah motion I don't think we're doing that today right yeah I don't see I don't see how you reduce the subsidy below where it's got to come up a little bit to I don't think we walked in there thinking we were reducing it I mean it' be wonderful you know but I don't think that was our game plan I just didn't I don't think want to see 500,000 no 500,000 that's five not even four it's so hard to cut pennies when budget season and budget season's going to be earlier this year by the way we're going to move it up a couple weeks so everyone's aware yep we are it's getting too tight for accounting at the end there so we're going to bump it up absolutely I thought I had the DAT with me but I don't that's okay I'm gonna ask for number sooner then yes you are yep understood understood that's fine so what so what are you looking for I think think you know I would I would put forth the the thought to keep the the subsidy around scenario 13 so somewhere you around $300,000 and then let's make it a Max of 310 okay I'm you know all I've been doing up here for a year is trying to build consensus so we're on our way and then what you know what is that do Randy tell us what that does to the rates because then that's going to that's going to drive the decision because it says here so well that 13 gives you if we keep that three tier yeah now your tier one is going to go up 20% tier two is going to go up 40% and tier three is going up 50% would you look at tier two is 4 47% of the users are tier two so that's the bu of your money how do you determiner B the first 15,000 gallons is tier one 15,000 to 30,000 based on their us and we dissected the last two or three billing periods to to bucket those Randy would you w the majority of the residences some of the larger tier one are all minimum users which are some by the Lakes Randy what locking those 20 40 and 50s in during that 5e period this forget us to FY so I did have a chart FY 27 you'll see your FY 28 if you look on page four of the letter projected Revenue short off fiscal year so FY 26 and 27 are right about 500,000 and then you see that increase to 600,000 fy3 so the numbers talking about today will get us through 267 and couple of the projects that are Z do Happ to move themselves along who's our largest sewer where we are today before we do anything I was going to look that up um give me a minute got and any complaints from the tier 2 users about the 40% increase Diane you pointed out they went years with without any increase and so this is what's kind happening they're not going to care about that no that's a very valid point you pointed them said hey I think she's got a year in just going backwards from today three and a half years three years and two years no increases so that's a that was the water use those was a lot of time to skate by right and here we are willing to take additional um yes subsidies for the town sure but that has to be made up somewhere yeah well and don't forget that there's debt that the entire town pays too and it's all sewer debt so the town is also paying that so you know there's give and take I think for the users to be able to understand that that the town is also subsidizing quite a bit so here here's the biggest users so Lakewood vill Department their their six month summer Bill a year ago was $122,000 $113,000 now you're adding nine buildings you're adding 40% of Time Captain power Apartments number two the Housing Authority was number three and $8 to $9,000 each M families yeah but also lower income right and then you got the Village Pizza Plaza at about $7,000 the schools we we we build a schools their their bill was5 to $6,000 we get we get that bill right back these numb get a double I'm giving you their summer Bill their six month bill so these are and then Westfield Bank next door they had an irrigation move set year um designer Edge Plaza Roma Plaza shell mobile summer house ra sh house they're about $3,000 $6,000 so you're adding 40% so those are the customers you're going to so cost your car wash is going and there's two new businesses in town two new restaurants that are open again might help a little well they're going to be a plus minus net net on that if they were closed now they open so we do also need to consider the debt as you said and if we have an opportunity to refinance we need to look at that well in the event rates go down but right now rates Ain't Gon the I would you know there's no return three three months ago I was doing rates and they're not any lower than they are here said they were 4.2 right now the USDA or something you said yeah between four and five four and a half is actually what I got just in the early spring late spring at what point does it make sense to refinance just when the rates go down when are we gonna jump On's theay you'll see on um the 4.6 yeah 4.6 It's gotta drop quite a bit though the yeah it's 2.75 those are like gone forever but I have I have lots of contacts at usca I'm very happy to call them up even talk about infrastructure grants not loans because loans are going to be 4% so and I don't know where we are with uh debt versus what we have eqv but um but that's something to think about too you don't you know we can't you can borrow 12% of your eqv you don't ever want to go that high but if we if our debt is half of the town's budget not including the school um you know it's a lot so you have to be careful too in what you're borrowing to value might be a stupid question for people who don't know about sewers so is there a way to reduce our capacity we we built for and we have capacity is there a way to reduce our capacity for some time would that affect our to us no our Fe is based on our per gallon how many gallons we so that's not going to change we just have a Max 500,000 gallons per day max we now flow 150,000 which there there's no benefit to Westfield for taking there's no real additional flow that's going to come there was at one point Southfield or what's it town eastampton I think talk to West Southampton talk to West looking for capacity and they actually they talked about I think maybe you were involved but they were looking at using our capacity in topic no we don't want to give right 25% do we want to now well look like we're going to use it we who wants it I mean mov on I mean there's no other that was oh okay so I guess and then I also said you know we got to look at the cost side so are you going to strike a conversation about reducing the 8% a year is somebody going to have that compensation about reducing the 8% a year % of the the floing the increas in the floing they're not good from West from West yeah they're not gonna I would love for you to have that I would love and I'll go with you who was with me when M almost put me up against the wall at in at MC yeah a year actually was the I think it was Mr Fox at the time I wasn't at that was at the other but yeah it was not a cant conversation used to be their we were assessed their commercial rate plus 10% we took they they they they they took that so now it's just a commercial rate without any in percent increase and what's the justification for 8% a year that that well that that's what they're there they have a fiveyear plan that they their whole city is we're we're a customer just like Mrs Smith on Field Street is a customer mhm that's how they treat we're not a partner or CER so if they're customer R Pap our R that's not it original IMA I can check availability for you if you want to pick a day we visit It's Gonna Get Us anywh nope we're gonna have a good time we I'll BR something also talked about looking too as and you know ingest at first but not really in the end is to take a look at the converse of that conversation needs to happen right there are certain assets that flow through the town of Southway yep that we talked about that probably not the right venue to discuss those at this juncture but there are assets that belong to that we need to come up the people that are treating us like a customer that are getting a sweet deal on the on in the other direction that we look at that could go off off of to take a look at how we're doing that they seem to have packaged that very well from what I understand versus what we've done they negotiated better than we did on the original much better yeah yeah there's utilities underneath that rail trail that can be shut off at any moment maybe but nobody will tell me where that valve is careful just saying I'm being honest so rules and regulations we're going to discuss those in a different meeting I think we can discuss those in a different meeting do we need to take a vote on this this set the we can Randy wants to see these rates by October 1st so we are now at September 5th have we agreed on scenario 13 or we're not voting kids we just simply we special my Mr I guess the question to finance though while you're here partner is there support for that and and can we afford it then therefore I'd put forth that Mo uh subject to the vice chair putting forth a motion at scenario 13 I would second it I'd be looking for that motion I will put forward a motion to adopt scenario 13 with the town subsidy being no more than 33 $3,000 for five years and it will be Revisited in five years do you think you should put the fiveyear cap on there I'm just thinking in two years we're already going to be at this you know problem again as long as it's not in perpetuity at that cap well I don't think we can just say we can reopen it we could reopen it next year if this whole financial planning goes to Pac but they've done a great job of planning the flows they've got a pretty good you know good handle around it I I don't think you have to limit it but we should we should as a board though have a better Cadence than okay this is a big problem we should be having this discussion maybe we revisit it every year and say hey are we good at 300,000 and and are our rates going to hold up to support that assumption yep okay Carry On may have to change this or you know we'll see so I don't think we have to limit it to 5 years so modifying that scenario 13 with the cap at $33,000 to be Revisited every year could put on the agenda every September his rates change in October every because that does but that does buy us into the sewer rates now for in in you said for two years right for two years right I think we're good for two years so then I'll second that motion yeah we may have to use it but I'll second that motion as 100% just to make sure we're good roll call vote Jason frone I Doug mug I I think the a motion to journ heard 725