##VIDEO ID:GXKast7nWpE## all right good evening everybody and on behalf of members of of the planning board and our professionals we'd like to uh welcome everybody to tonight's meeting of the sparta Township planning board this meeting is now called to order it's important to note that the live stream for this meeting may be viewed at YouTube at www.youtube.com forpart Township with Township being TW WP please note the adequate public meeting public notice of this meeting was provided in accordance with the open Public's meeting acts so I ask that everybody please stand and join the board and our professionals as we proudly begin this meeting with a salute to our nation's flag I to the flag of the United States of America to the repblic it stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right thank you everybody and Miss Fox could you please call the rooll here here Christine dunar Mike Sylvester Vice chairman Bill en chairman Ronde here Deputy Mayor Dean here fman here Janette BKE here CEST Luciano here and Brian Zimmerman here okay thank you all right uh so the next item on the agenda is the approval of minutes tonight I'm glad to say we have three sets of minutes uh we'll take each one individually so the first set of minutes is for August 7th 2024 would somebody like to make a motion to accept the minute I'll make I'll make a motion I'll second okay uh do I roll call please I have a couple Corrections sorry thank you sure sure so um I'd like to make a motion there's uh four minor corrections I think they're minor enough that we can still proceed uh first one is there was a um approval of the July 17th minutes that were noted in these and I abstained from that vote because I wasn't present at the July 17th meeting so I think it just needs to be reflective that there was an exstension okay uh second one is the uh there's just a word missing from the Town Council update that I offered during that meeting um it mentions ordinance 247 and and it uh refers to it as design standards um just because it came from this board especially I'd like to add in it was parking design standards the third one I believe according to my notes at this meeting we also approved site plan waiver subcommittee me minutes uh you recall that I don't recall looking this is for which one is this September uh August 7 August I I don't recall I can go back and check okay thanks okay and then the fourth one under resolutions um there was a mixed bag of who was present that night and who was eligible to vote uh I know sometimes we say that all all present and eligible voted yes or approved in this case it just says all present and I think there were a difference between present and eligible so if we can just add all present and eligible voted to approve I think that would solve the problem and that's for the resolutions okay so it's I'd like to make a motion that we approve the minutes as amended I'll second it any other comments okay uh roll call please yes are you yes mayor yesman yes yes yes yes and yes here that's okay all right uh the second set we have is from September 4th 2024 uh would anybody like to make a motion to accept the minutes of September 4th 2024 I'll make a motion okay I'll second okay any comments from anybody okay seeing none uh dor can have a roll call yes yes R yes may yes yes yes yes yes okay all right so the minut for September 4th 20 2024 are approved I'd like to make a motion um the next set amendments is September 18th 2024 I've been at the dentist today so I'm have a little bit of a list tonight so please bear with me it still pull some no so would anybody like to make a motion to approve the minutes of September 18th 2024 I'll make the motion I'll second any comments for anybody okay seeing none dor have a roll call J can yes yesman R yesman yes yes yes yes okay great so the minutes of September 18th 2024 are approved all right the next section section of the meeting is our public hearing tonight we have uh two uh applications that are being continued uh the first one being application uh planning board 24721 brainstem being application planning board number uh application 713 RZ and Company so uh welcome back to the folks from brandstone if you could come on up and um and if you wouldn't mind maybe just give us a quick overview again and sure sure good evening turn that on there good all right good evening ladies and gentlemen Daniel Bor from the law firm of Asin and hooker representing applicant brandstone uh Juan paliso uh who is present um if I can maybe we can have uh my client and my other witness sworn in uh before I start going through everything uh just in case they want to fill some gaps we'll we'll be able to run right into that um so uh will you guys please approach all right uh Mr PLO you understand you're still under oath right yes and uh were you sworn at the last meeting I was not okay please raise your right hand do you swear a firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you God I do and please tell your name and address sure my name is Megan McMullen I'm the CEO for skark Inc and my personal address is 99 High Street in ogdenburg Megan Please spell your last name m a c m u l l i n and U Megan you also hold a position um as the uh chairperson of the association for this specific property correct I do now okay yes unfortunately I know I know all right you guys can be just seated for a second and I'll I'll bring you back up all right so the last time we were here uh September 4th 2024 um my client provided uh testimony regarding his porcelain uh business it's a porcelain fabric ation company um where he takes slabs of porcelain and he cuts them uh and then takes them to where they're going to be installed and they're installed he has no interaction with his clients uh on site he only needed four parking spots he only operates between 7:30 and 400 p.m. um and uh and as far as the waste material uh with respect to his company uh it's all going to be kept inside the unit um he's going to load his truck in inside the unit he's going to leave with his truck it's not actually even going to be parked outside it's just a pickup truck anyway um and he only needed the four spots he has three to four employees um and we went through all of this testimony but unfortunately um you know the planning board in Sparta is trying to help clean up the township and trying to you know beautify things and so as a result of that there were a lot of questions that the planning board had that I just couldn't answer and I was honest with them that I couldn't answer it so um as I promised I went back and I had conversation with the association for this specific piece of property um and I I have to be honest the previous owner really kind of dumped a big pile of you know on my client and the other tenants in the building and said here you deal with it uh and so uh when asking questions this evening just remember that they're now stuck with this problem and we're trying to fix it we're trying to work with them and with the town to to rectify the issues um so there were a couple things um I wanted to clarify the association I didn't know was actually established as a um I it may be a nonprofit it may be an LLC but we'll get the testimony with respect to that um but I had said that it was just an association uh it was just a group of unit owners that got together but ultimately it is an established uh company um and uh let's see here just want to make sure I go through the other issues okay all right um so uh Megan if you'll come up and sit next to me all right um now so I have a a plan here uh this plan um I just for identification purposes uh it is dated oh 10124 and it is prepared by uh Owen dyra and it is the parking plan um I have colored it it has not been submitted to the board um but I'd like to mark it uh for identification purposes uh Mr Collins do you remember what number we were on was it A2 now A3 maybe even A4 CU I had a couple different exhibits at the last meeting um to be safe I could just make it A5 yeah why don't to do that okay with today's date hold on one second I might have okay I had written down that I had a one through three but I don't think I actually presented all three of those because we stopped the meeting a little short to go through all these things so I I only have a one and A2 but let's go with a five with today's date okay all right so I have A5 uh 10224 um Miss MC Mullen uh do you recognize this document yes okay and uh what is this document so it's uh it's a plan for the property where the five units are located on Gail 26 Gail Court in Sparta okay and specifically it it references is what specific issue on the property the parking okay and um you'll notice colors do you see the colors on there I do okay uh do you understand what they're for yeah okay and the yellow color represents what that represents skark okay and the green color what does that represent uh those are spaces reserved for the daycare center which is the final unit of the building okay um and uh there are green and yellow uh parking spaces is that correct yes and what do those represent so I believe those are the handicap is that the Y handicap spots um there are two against the building um that are obviously open to anyone regardless of the unit they're coming into we tend to use them more than anyone else but um those are open to anyone all right generally they're shared between skark and the child care cor correct okay and that's the green and yellow yeah um and then there's there's four pink spots down in the corner and what do those represent those are the spots that we have at least tentatively reserved for Mr palaso um as they are in the back of the building and near the back entrance to his unit and those were the spots that would work best for him so we just Reserve those for him all right and uh presently have you had any issues with parking on site no okay all right so um D Dory was able to find that we had three exhibits from the other night so you can go go ahead and make this a those the notes that I had I'm sorry I couldn't I couldn't hear A4 that this is now A4 because we we have confirmation from our secretary that uh the other night we had three exhibits that's cuz Dory is great okay um so here is the official parking plan for the property I wanted to make sure that everybody got to see that currently there are no issues with the parking although it seems like a a high use because it's a daycare and skark um you know really the the daycare and Scar get along just fine and we're only taking four of those uh spots um from the rest of the property now I also wanted to mention that there were some issues and we'll get into this there were some issues with regard to landscaping and things Miss McMullan uh you had conversation with Mr dun um and what did you guys what what did you guys come to conclude um just I just wanted to say historically this is actually one of the reasons we like the ordinance because we've made requests in the past to have some of these issues attended to and they just have not been attended to on behalf of the association so we're actually excited to get a lot of this in place because um for any of you that know skark properties we tend to take pride in our properties and this was not one that we were particularly happy with at the current time so we're excited to be taking this project on and and sprucing it up and making it a better um a better location so what we discussed today was Landscaping was um maybe some new signage for the building um I don't know if you want to talk about stop sign but we very much support those as well and certainly the retention Basin that's on the property and getting that cleaned out um and presentable as it should be um so we discussed today uh myself and Jason Dunn about um trying to keep up with what the expectations are regarding landscaping and um you know obviously making sure that everything on the property is as it should be so um we have made preliminary plans um that we will put in place as quickly as we can to um abide by some of those issues and so uh just to be clear if the board looks kindly upon my client's application this evening it will be conditioned upon a landscape plan being re uh prepared reviewed and approved by uh Mr Simmons uh as well as an ASB built um survey or site plan we'll call it of the property um because none of the plans that we have actually have all of the conditions contained on the property is that correct yes okay and we can expect that those items would be completed within uh three months two months what do you think yeah I mean we're we're working with the weather plan at this point on the Landscaping but um for the most part I mean we've already gotten proposals in on Landscaping changes and the retention Basin um obviously our one hurdle is there's items on the property that are unsightly that belong to the prior owner um and we're getting a little bit of reluctance there as far as the timeline to get those off there but we're going to just continue to push on that and if he for some reason does not comply we will actually take care of that ultimately and um get those items off the property so I would say this fall is our plan I will say that you know I've read through um the town's um you know ordinances and and I'm reading through the landscape plan I will just ask for a little bit of um attention for us as a nonprofit uh we do not have a ton of money set aside for a brand new landscape plan on the property but we will um you know do as much as we can and we if we may need to boost that into the spring um I can certainly let you know once we have a final plan in place so so specifically you're requesting for a waiver of the design plan um requirements in the Ed zone right for this property although we are intending on providing a landscape plan for the property um we are requesting a waiver from strict compliance with the design waiver standards yeah I mean just you know we will obviously stand we will obviously make it a more beautiful place um just for budgetary purposes we only have so much in a fiscal year to spend on Landscaping um so you know we will go through the process of getting probably materials donated and we have some friends who can help us out with that but I just once we get the plan finalized you know you guys can decide whether or not it's appropriate for any waiver of any um any of requirements okay and just just so the board's clear I want to go through some uh uh strict or some specific um condition requirements for approval this evening so the property all the debris garbage everything is going to be cleaned up from the property is that correct yes okay and there are dumpsters on the site uh all but one large dumpster is going to be removed from the site our plan with blue diamond is to have one garbage uh dumpster which will service um our units as well as the daycare because they indicated to us that they're going to be leaving waste management and moving over to Blue Diamond so we will work that out with blue diamond to make sure we have something that suits both of us and then if we're required to have a recycle bin we will have one on the property that's that's shared and so if there are dumpsters let's say one two dumpsters no matter how many dumpsters there are they're going to be inclosed in a dumpster enclosure yes and we already have a plan in place to redo the enclosure for the dumpsters so you're totally rebuilding the dumpster enclosure as far as the fencing around the outside correct okay all right um and uh there's also uh we talked about it briefly but just the retention Basin it is your intention to completely uh remove all of the the the trees and brush and everything from that and clean it out and maintain it as part of the association yes okay um and you also talked about the stop sign installation you did agree to have stop signs put at the uh exits of each one of the yeah that we we've actually already have the signs my one question actually was just if there's any requirements for distance from the entrance or somebody can help me and point me in the right direction of those rules I'm happy to comply with them but we have everything we need to install them I just didn't want to install them and then have them to be in the wrong place yeah and I think working with Jason done will help get you get you to that part um and then uh additionally lighting uh although the lighting is seasonal generally the lights are off at 10 and back are yeah are off at 10:00 and back on at 6:00 in the morning uh and then obviously turn off with the light yeah we've already reset the lighting timers so that's actually already in compliance okay um okay all right and um another condition of approval something that I was unable to obtain this evening were the architectural plants uh I literally pulled into the driveway and at the same time the previous owner pulled into the driveway with an arm full of old architectural plants that he basically dumped through the window of my car um so it is my intention to contact the architects who happens to be either maybe a cousin or brother or something of the previous owner um Matthew uh Samantha you guys might know him um he's the one that did the architectural so it's my intention and if the board again looks kindly upon the application this evening we will provide the architecturals for at least my client's unit so that you have a copies of those architecturals um and that would be a condition of approval so that we don't have to come back again a third time um at least this will set a groundwork for what we're trying to do here again I I believe my client uh and and probably the rest of the unit owners are kind of held hostage by uh what the previous owner did and I don't want that to be the case and my client knows that he has things that he needs to get done but at the same time he wants to start moving things into this unit because he's done with another unit so uh he doesn't want to reinstitute a new lease or start on a month-to-month basis on on an old property that he's no longer going to be working in so he wants to start working that's why we're here tonight that's why we didn't want to push the application okay um if the board has any questions for my witness now would be a great time okay let me if I could U Mr Simmons uh do you do you have any questions want we start with our professionals and hi uh Mr chairman and board members uh just referring to my report of August 5th 2024 on this application um the items that uh the applicants attorney just went over were basically the ones that I had pointed out as far as information that we really didn't have uh things on uh with regards to the parking uh I've just seen it tonight for the first time with everyone but again they're delineating where everyone's going to be so I think that helps bring some organization to it especially since the ceramic uh cutting tenant proposes to only use four spaces and they're in the back of the building which will help excuse me with regards to the dumpsters again when I was out there on site excuse me when I was out there on site there were several dumpsters and I think it's a good thing that there's only going to be one or maybe two and I'm in agreement with reconstructing and building a new enclosure because the one that was there was not in great shape so that's that's a definite plus uh the stop signs are a safety issue and again they indicated they're going to put them up and with regards to uh the landscape plan excuse me uh again I think it's a good thing that because it was basically just grass and the detention Basin that was out on site had been overgrown it should be maintained as they indicated they're going to do uh for purposes of making sure the Basin works properly and plus an aesthetic standpoint uh with regards to any other signage the one question I had was your client going to put any new facade signage on or did I hear something about new signage I had me if you don't mind sorry go ahead um I just mentioned this um one of the one of the things we were talking about today or I was talking today with Jason Dunn about was one of the ways to maybe improve the the visual effect of the property um is to create more of a a like a stone or some sort of sign for the property where we would have the names of obviously the companies on the property as opposed to that existing freestanding sign exactly yeah that sign is not necessarily the most pleasant but not part of the application tonight they'd have to go back four with a permit request and go through the proper steps my client came to the board actually we're not even intending to have a sign the only thing that's going to be there is is the name on the door and that's it okay because no one's going to be coming for my client that was my client's testimony at the last meeting uh but with respect to this sign um I think what we needs to happen is we need to put some plans together Jason we need to do that and maybe file under a new application or a permit okay we would consider that wanted to clarify that for the board so you knew what was included or not included with this particular application yep y thank you for that yeah and then the uh the only other thing is uh we did discuss previously as far as any waste material that that was going to be from the ceramic polishing and cutting operation that was going to be properly disposed in an authorized facility as needed correct correct absolutely that's all I have Mr chairman okay thank you Mr Mar thank you very much um as it regards to the parking um You probably have a good familiarity with how the parking scheme currently operates um and is is parking ever a problem on the site um the only time we it's and it's not an issue because we know about it is um Halloween at the daycare okay because there's a parade and we typically would just park offsite we would ask a neighbor if we can park there but for the most part on the we the two tenants or the two owners the daycare and us we've worked over time about the best way to have vehicles in and out um in the morning and in the afternoon because it's really a drop off and pickup time frame that can get problematic because the two um they don't really overlap but sometimes parents are late or early or whatever so we've worked it out so that um as you can see The Far Side away from the building in the front um is where we typically have our staff Park um and then the the spots along the building um are more people that actually have to pull in and either pick somebody up or drop somebody off that way we don't have any skark participants or small children really crossing the property uh or the parking lot so we really have not had an issue with that um you know we keep our skark vehicles in the back of the building so that's not an issue um in the primary front parking lot we've kind of worked it out based on how the flow goes so it really has not been a problem when you say scar Vehicles you mean like larger like buses or sometimes it's a like it's a um accessible minivan or a sort of a midsize van we we have only one or two larger um lift vehicles that come in but they never come into the front of the building they only go in the back would you be amenable to the board requiring that those Vehicles be parked at the back of the site just to maintain the kind of circulation I should have pointed it out so if when when you're looking at this plan there's a specific reference to Vans and there's seven of them there's actually seven spots for Vans there's four spots for skark vehicles they're like cars whatever um and there's no Vans permitted in the front Okay I will say I will say that in the front we have um I'm trying to explain it the right way we have we do have two vans that are not mini vans um they're basically like an eight passenger van that we will it almost looks like a like a locksmith truck or a small you know um just a a van that only has eight seats in it that we will use those um typically use those first two spots away from the building nope the back parking area uh no sorry front of the building but not against the building you want me to this is easier yeah so we will park them right here okay and that's where they will stay just because it's easy and easy out and those are used for like activities um for that particular day so if they're going to go out into the community those are the two vehicles they would use and we park them right at the front so it's easy in Easy out okay um and I don't mean to get uh into the topic of the entirety of the site or the building or anything and I know this is you know an application for a tenant change but I just want to make sure that the four spaces that are delineated for this tenant are adequate um simply because uh you know the owner has or operator mentioned that there are three or four employees and if that ever grew by one you know you're short on Spaces already so I just want to guarantee or not or just make it clear that the parking scheme is well thought out and that the um if there are is a need for signage or pavement markings or something like that in the future that maybe that's something that is uh thought out we've thought about that and actually we've talked to the other tenant or the other owner about whether or not we really need to Mark the spaces um but it you know once usually every September there's new families that come in so it's just a there's a little bit of a learning curve but we always address it I know they address it in their sort of back to school night um if he were to need another space or two in the back um we would be able to accommodate that okay that's good to know y um as far as the Landscaping I uh I heard your comment about looking through the ordinance I appreciate you looking through the ordinance um we have that is a newer ordinance provision for this Zone um it does have intentions to to kind of soften more industrial sites um what I do think in looking at your site is um it has a lot of green space in the front and on the sides um there is some Landscaping some existing trees they're not quite mature yet but you know there's some trees between the buildings and I think the site will best benefit from Landscaping at the front of the building um where it will soften kind of the foundation exposed Foundation um it'll kind of fill out that area I think a new sign will definitely improve what's what's there today so I think those are all positives um in the long term and I think that they all enhance kind of the the site and um and it will be a good outcome from from just tenant change here uh so we appreciate you taking the steps to look into that and and to improve the site I will just say on the front of the building I know this particular plan when we talk about Landscaping um The Roof is a metal roof so when it rains or snows this the the actual water kind of goes flying off you know like it goes out so right along the foundation is a very difficult place to plant um but we've talked about River Rock we've talked about other things that would make it aesthetically pleasing um maybe other than plants that look really nice for the first month and then not so good after that so um and I'm happy to submit those ideas and plans as we make them to the board if they want it so um I just wanted to give you an idea of where we can plant um and maybe something else some other um idea for against the building yeah I appreciate you you know giving it the thought I don't think they need to be right up against the building I think that they'll because you have such a good lawn space up between the right of way and the building that you do have an opportunity to visually screen something without it having to be right of the building so we'd rather have alive plants that do their job than you know dead plants like a squished by the rain um and that's all I had thank you thank you I'm gonna say Katherine touched on most of everything I was GNA question but um I do I do want to thank you for uh taking the initiative to spruce up the property yeah all right thank you yeah no it's a big big deal for us too so um we're happy to do it thank you I don't have anything at the moment thank you okay thank you I had a question from last time but it really um would be for your client I might know the answer okay it was all the dust that was being collected um through the tubes and uh it was going to be disposed of into the garbage and um he was going to check to see if there was a someplace that would accept that material rather than going into a dump site oh yeah so um porcelain doesn't produce a lot of dust compared to granite or quartz um it's very minimal but if I can find a job site it's basically like a 20b bag that I could put in the pickup truck and just dispose it in one of the the facilities that we normally just throw in because it actually converts it into like a solid Mass that's in a bag okay and then it's just we could just dump it wh we want we don't they usually just accept it in the regular garbage it's not going to be anything that's going to bother them from we we've done it in the regular garbage take it to the in county in laia and they would know what to do yes okay thank you just a question or two thank you for everything you shared tonight the um talk about parking for a second again um what is the the current tenant or The Last Tenant that was in that um Unit A I believe it's called Uh how many employees and how many parking spaces were they using it was actually I don't think there was a business in there okay to be honest I think he was he may have been living in there um because there was a child going out to a bus stop actually there um so there was there was nobody really in there except the one gentleman and he wasn't there all the time but was there some of the time so there really was no impact um to any of that he had one car when he was there and on the books it shows a vinyl printing facility but we don't know how many tenants there were like how many people there were like how many employees or how many cars were parked there regularly it really was it was one car it was gentleman maybe one other adult and a child okay okay which is kind of awkward yeah so the um with the understanding should this be approved with conditions tonight is of course you understand that if the tenant mix changed in the future yeah then we'd have to go back again and look at who are the five tenants what are the park requirements per tenant add them up make sure there's enough spaces yeah okay yeah and I mean at that you know depending we own obviously the the middle of the building there's three units um you know I mean it's a it's a day program site and it's based on the ratio of the individuals we have going there there's a certain number of staff that are required for the number of people we have in the program so I mean if there was some major change we would probably start looking around but that's fine I mean you know it's never really been an issue up to this point and while you're talking about the association can you just give us a quick is it a LLC is it how is it structured was all to in the beginning yeah it's an LLC um you know we don't really have any of the materials yet um I've made the request um you know there's a there's a Association um bank account we have no access to it yet I have no idea what's in there how much is in there uh I mean I know what we've paid over time but um I have no idea what's in there and what's been reserved um you know there are documents there are are Insurance uh there's insurance on the building which quite honestly we had to uh rely on because of some water issues at one point so we know that's legit and so I have a good working relationship with the agent there they know that we're going to be assuming responsibility for that um I just don't really have any of the documents yet and if we don't get them we'll re you know we will find them and recreate uh the file so um the members which is myself the owners of the day care center and and um the current applicant um we've already met we've had a meeting where we've decided you know once we know what's going on here we'll get together we'll establish whatever rules and regulations need to be established under the the rules of the association so it's the association legally that's U agreeing to these commitments cor we mentioned earlier corre correct okay not the client not that's correct okay uh last question is just something for consideration you mentioned the uh lighting and that uh going off between 10 p.m and 6: am uh the 10 pm number is there um what's the thinking around 10 instead of earlier it was arbitrary arbitrary yeah so I mean if there's some other time typically you know we we to discussed the activity on the property obviously the daycare is daycare hours um for our purposes um we use the programs during the day for a Day program at sometimes we do do use it for programming in the afternoon or early evening um but we would never be there after probably 9 o'clock so we just 10 o'clock was sort of an arbitrary um time so if there's some other time we can certainly consider that some some some applicants or some tenants agree to uh you know at dusk or an hour past dusk things like that to make it a little little bit earlier to cut down on some of light pollution if it's not going to be used in the evening heavily yeah I mean we you know I think at the end of the day um I mean they're on a timer right now so um certainly based on the time of year we can adjust and make it earlier you know this time of year so that the lights aren't on okay okay thank you yep that's all I have okay uh just a couple quick ones so uh number one I like along with everybody else thank you for what you're doing here there's an existing building there this is really a new tenant that's bringing you here yeah and as part of this uh it sounds like you're willing to do some Landscaping improvements and if that was to be worked uh with Mr Simmons and if was to be looked at favorably from the board I guess the agreement would be that if you weren't able to reach an agreement you come back to the board and would resolve it there yeah okay absolutely okay um that's the only question oh one more and then you had mentioned you were thinking about doing some sign changes maybe um so but so if you were to do that then that would be submitted to the minor sight plan subcommittee for approval correct but it's not part I that sort of a phase too we're going to try and get in compliance with with what the board prefers at this point and then we'll work on uh we'll work on that as phase two okay thank you that's question but we're not doing this in phases just we let me that's on behalf of the association all right thank you Ernie um the advantage of going next to last everything's I had has been asked and answered so thank you uh yeah same for me just thanks for um your time and your partnership you know I think as a result I think uh the site's only going to be improved from here so we thank you um um and thanks for your work for it no problem you're welcome I do have one thing sure um with the landscape plan and and seeing as though Chris Dunbar isn't here um Native species is really what we're going to be looking for when it comes to a landscape plan we choose our landscapers you know we have four of them based on all of our properties so we have some requirements on what can be planted and not planted so okay great thanks yep Mr chairman if if I may one other item while you're working on putting your documents together Mr Collins reminded me uh it would be a good time to prepare a maintenance plan for the detention Basin and we should have that in order to comply with the uh current D regulations uh have that filed in the county clerk's office that way everyone knows just what's required from here on in please okay thank you okay I would also just ask I know in the past the meeting that happened prior the association which if I can provide the address for skark if letters you know it it can be directed to my attention just so we have something to follow along with um regarding the requirements that would be great I can provide that okay Mr badorf um I have no uh no further Witnesses okay okay uh let's open it up to the public any questions from the public or testimony I'm sorry Tom questions or comments okay thank you yes questions or comments okay seeing none I guess Tomic if you could help us formulate the a list of conditions yes the board might consider a motion to approve the amended preliminary and final site plan um for brandstone as requested and as discussed in the hearings subject to the standard conditions and subject to the condition that they'll U the uh Condominium Association will submit a landscape a native species landscape plan which we prepared um for review an approval of the board uh engineer and they'll also submit a ASB belt plan uh and those will be submitted within three months of today um they do we are the board is granting this relief from the the new uh details of the landscaping design ordinance uh to the extent uh that this is because this is an existing uh facility and the uh proposed changes are modest in scope um they will applicant or and or the Condominium Association will remove all debris and garbage from the site uh all all dumpsters except one dumpster will be removed and if necessary a recycling bin will be used and those will be kept inside a uh dumpster enclosure which shall be rebuilt in with new uh fencing um they will clean and maintain the detention Basin and record a standard uh detention Basin maintenance manual they'll install stop signs at the exits the lights will be turned off uh no later than one half hour after close close of business uh they'll provide a copy of the uh prior architectural plan to the board within UH 60 days uh there'll be no hazardous materials used on the site or disposed of on the site or in the septic system there'll be no floor drains the um if the U Condominium Association decides to submit a plan for a new monument or freestanding sign for the site uh then that uh sign can be submitted for the review and approval of the minor site plan subcommittee um so comply with the parking plan submitted as A4 and there'll be no large large Vans or large Vehicles parked in the front parking lot and such large Vans or large Vehicles shall be parked in the rear parking lot that's those are the conditions that I had Mr chairman okay does anybody have anybody else have any others the um retention Basin uh was going to be cleaned out but then as David you were mentioning it should be filed at the at the um County Clerk's Office that's right that's the we did say that Mr colins the only thing I think you mentioned uh if they were to do a a free standing sign but that would also apply if you would to do any new building signs as well that you still have to come to that'd be fine agreed okay okay okay okay based on the amendment as just discussed anybody like to make a motion to approve I'll make a motion I'll second okay any comments okay roll call pleasey Mayor yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes and Mr chairman we'll just confirm you know I don't think you have to have another V vote vote but we'll confirm this that this is effective this evening so the tenant can move in and operate effective immediately provided all other requirements are met it's pretty straightforward here because it's just a change in tenant okay thank you all right thank you thank you very much ladies and gentlemen appreciate it have a good evening thank you okay that then brings us to the uh the second hearing which is also a continuation for planning board application 713 ramass company LLC uh will the folks uh from from ramass company uh please come forward Mr chairman Michael svaj from labaj coh on behalf of the applicant as correctly noted this is a continuation of a hearing that began believe this is the property one block 50 apologies would you mind using the um so this is the property uh lot one block 55019 uh address 61 Sparta Avenue uh many of you probably know it as the sparta Pharmacy lot uh when we were here last month and just to backtrack um uh the application is seeking uh some bulk variant relief uh to allow an 1100 square foot vacant space on the property and a 14400 square space on the property to be um available for restaurants restaurants are permitted in the zone however this property um um does not have well we filed uh available parking um and that was kind of the focus of the discussion last time we were here uh we have revised the plans and have created uh some additional parking we've also you'll hear tonight uh limited the space so that uh the restaurant space does not uh exceed uh the available parking we also have a representative for the uh applicant tonight who owns the property next door uh which uh is a chiropract on the first floor you'll hear and there's uh two apartments above it uh the applicant is prepared to since he controls both properties give a park uh cross easement to allow for parking uh which uh we would submit would would eliminate uh that concern um so what I'd like to do is to before we get to the uh applicants representative to kind of keep the continuity going uh Mr nater who was the engineer on the project who was sworn in last time is here he will discuss the changes that were made uh then we'll go to the applicants representative we have our architect and then we also have uh our planner so um Mr nater um you were put under oath last time correct correct yes um and in the last two months your license hasn't been forfeited a lot correct uh no okay so uh you can continue to uh testify as an expert in the area of civil engineering uh so Mr n why don't you start out by walking us through I think the last plan revision day was September 15th I believe uh yes that is correct September um now what what you're showing here uh is I don't believe we submitted it in color correct that is correct all right so uh I believe Mr chairman we're going to have to mark this um and I believe trying to see I I don't know if we marked any exhibits last time so if if my if I'm correct this would be uh A1 and Mr nater what is A1 A1 is um is a color rendering of the site plan which is sheet c-3 it is part of the site plan submission that we made except it just we added a little bit of color to try to uh uh give you a little bit view better view of what's going on on the property all right so why don't we describe then what what you know what we're looking at here sure absolutely so what we have is basically uh the property in itself we described it last time at our last meeting almost a trap idal shape for that property we have a an access of Sparta Avenue uh that access provides vehicular access as well as pedestrian access into the property and as you come in from spart Avenue and um looking in the direction of Northeast in this direction you basically make a left into where the parking area is for the vehicle so you've got a a a run of parking approximately eight uh parking spaces that are facing onto Sparta Avenue and then as you continue traveling in a Northerly northwesterly Direction you have an additional six parking spaces let's count them again 1 two 3 four five five parking spaces that are facing route 181 or 517 I'm sorry route 517 and then over to the right of that would be additionally 1 2 3 4 five six parking spaces that are facing the existing stru structure that is situated on the property two of those are are handic correct that is correct they're identified on the plan as handicapped parking spaces um now if you as you come in in the driveway if you continue straight back again in the northeasterly direction you have three parallel parking that are adjacent to the building almost to the rear of the building or to the side of the building and the property ends basically or terminates into an undeveloped uh property behind us uh what we have proposed is three additional parallel parking 25 through or 23 through 25 that are on the side of the building again and in addition to that we have a head-on parking to the property in the rear uh six parking spaces that basically provide for additional parking as suggested and recommended last time we were here before you um we have delineated an area for a a loading this area basically is currently being utilized I as a parking and potentially loading in here it's not necessarily designated on the pavement as such but we plan to do so um the in addition to that uh we have the uh existing compressors that are for the HVAC that are located almost at the Terminus of the building uh at the North corner of the building in the back in the rear and here and that's pretty much the U the use on the property all right so how many spaces does do A1 identify now on the property so we have a total as indicated on the plan in here of 32 spaces okay um and the spaces themselves the size of those spaces are they uh compliant with uh Township requirements or or does some of these spaces require design waivers of any kind they do they do require design waivers I mean they are existing spaces they've been part of this development for years uh um there's never been any complaining about the ability to park and exit the vehicle safely and access the property safely uh they do meet certain ones meet the requirements others are slightly shy of the requirements as indicated by the engineers letter certainly we've been to the site and we see that as well uh but we didn't in order to generate additional parking spaces we didn't shrink the size of the existing spaces to squeeze out a couple of more spots did we no absolutely not we did not touch any of the existing spaces that are shown um left of the entrance driveway facing 517 and facing the side of the building that faces 517 all right now on A1 and I don't think it's identified I guess the purple is the building itself that is correct all right and where are the how is that property internally split up I know the architect will go into it but I think just to help Orient the board as to the the space and and where the parking is for it so the unit the two vacant units are basically they are shown on this on this plan uh there the two Corner units one is the as a southern unit and it is depicted again on this exhibit A1 and the other one is the northern unit leaving the pharmacy the spart of Pharmacy which would be uh if if you grid this building would be to the left or to the west of that Center grid okay and the approximate sizes of of the three spaces uh I would say that um one of the space is400 Square ft and the other space is 1,00 square F feet so the the Northerly one is, 1400 Square fet it's slightly bigger than the southernly one which is about 1100 sare F feet okay um now you had an opportunity prior to the night to review you Mr Simmons's September 20 30th excuse me report correct correct yes all right um and I think perhaps we may want to walk U through that just to uh to address some of the concerns or issues that he's raised uh beginning on page two um he talks about the site plan and he asks uh if there are any cross- seasment between these two properties your company did the surveying for this uh property correct correct yes all right um and did you when doing the title search and everything else did you come across any cross easements between this lot and the the adjacent lot when we're saying the adjacent lot the one across from us um there is no cross easement between them but there is an easement that crosses between the two proper and that easement as far as you could glean from the review of the uh available records was provided for what reason as we understand it I mean we we dug deep into into existing deed information U to try to establish where that property boundary is and the Genesis behind it basically this this easement was in my opinion created to provide access potentially to the property in the rear the undeveloped property in the rear okay um now um Mr Simmons had talked about um will we be able to maintain that access in the event it ever was developed by virtue of what you've done here he talked about you know the parking and and perhaps the narrowing of that easement area it's hard to understand and plan as to what can potentially come in the rear in here and um is proposed or could be proposed in the back so uh in addition to that it's difficult to actually cast an opinion whether they do have an access somewhere else onto 517 or another access onto the the shopping center Beyond so I don't know to what level of intensity this can be utilized however though having said that I did stop at the site before I came here tonight and ironically there was a vehicle parked in one of those parallel spaces and there was a large full-size pickup truck parked across from it directly facing the building uh across from our site and I did step out of the car and I measured the dimension between them it measured approximately 20 ft as they exist today or tonight as they were parked so is 20 ft you know logically enough to allow for two-way traffic you know the state of New Jersey allows you to use 20 ft for two-way traffic you know granted it's mostly for residential but then again residential as proposed you expect to have vehicles of all different sizes that would be traveling on that road so is it enough in 20 ft to allow vehicles to go back and forth yes in my opinion it would be enough and by the way that vehicle that was parked parallel was about almost 3 feet away from the building itself so you know certainly any any more encroachment closer to the building would give additional space for the traveling Vehicles all right now sticking with the the parking Mr um Simmons in his comment B uh talked about spaces 23 through 25 uh and those are the spaces I guess directly behind the building yes and talked about um if if those were to be utilized it would actually block the doorway uh for deliveries to the back of that building what what's your view on on that I mean is that correct is there a workaround so the there there is a doorway uh towards the rear of the building in the back where uh parking number 25 is identified um our anticipation more than likely is that these parking spaces would be utilized for employees as Mr Simmons suggested or recommended um so if there is a delivery and depending on the type of delivery generally speaking for a restaurant delivery more than likely there would be morning deliveries they're not going to be you know afternoon or evening deliveries you want to bring the food nice and fresh so you could prep for the daily activities so with that being said there should not be any issue or problem basically occupying that space accessing that doorway getting into the building during that timeline okay um along those same lines he had uh suggested that uh spaces 27 through 32 which I guess are the far back correct correct yes all right um and be dedicated uh for employe parking only um do you I mean there's no problem us designating that or you could do some signage or something there to to show that we certainly can I mean this is a very much Disturbed area uh we did take the board's recommendation last time to heart and we did go out there and look at it and we were basically identified that being one it's it's Disturbed too it's it's got quite a bit of stone that is on the on the ground surface of it and it's partially paved as well so we decided to create more of of a of a delineated uh parking areas that can be or would be for uh employees yes okay um now I think we we addressed about the uh aisle width of 24 ft behind 90° parking it's the existing condition as we we alluded to last time basically where where parking space number 19 the way that the that the uh curb is delineated it does tend to encroach closer to that parking space basically bringing in that Dimension closer to 20 ft rather than 24t but as we've stated again for someone to be able to exit they can exit with the 20 foot uh we're certainly happy to provide a a template to the engineer so they could see how the vehicles do exit and again they currently use that parking and they there it's never any issue that I'm aware of that the client had mentioned to me that they cannot exit from this specific location okay um the um we talked about comment number e or comment number letter e sorry um talked about the minimum parking space size of 180 Square ft he notes that spaces 9 through 133 are a little bit below that as well as um some spaces between numbers eight and excuse me two and eight but your testimony as we said earlier I mean that's that's not a condition we've created I mean that's a as far as you can tell a pre-existing uh condition correct that is correct yes all right um the um with regards to spaces 27 through 32 um those are the ones in the back Mr Simmons had noted that perhaps there was storm some storm water uh management that would needed to be accompanied with the development of that area for parking uh pursuant to uh Township ordinance 21-02 um have you looked into that I mean is there a need for storm water management in that area and if if so or if not why well again as as an engineer and opinion I not going into a whole lot of detail but a a partial segment of all of this sparking from 27 and 32 is already paved another uh big portion of it is actually a stone area or gravel area um it is being utilized at the present time it leaves only a a partial of Park working 27 28 and 29 although it's not necessarily identified as either paved or Stone cover but it is Disturbed and it is basically cut down and um I'm not going to say it's wellmaintained no that's not the case but it is an area that is being used at the present time so if you really want to be picky you could look at 27 28 and 29 that only that portion of it that doesn't have necessarily a hard surface such as pavement and if we do add that paved area in here that basically will constitute the additional impervious cover in my opinion which Falls below the 500 square F feet not all these spaces uh spaces that would be added imp prvious cover okay um now um and in comment letter F uh Mr Simmons talks about um it's not clear that the available parking can handle the additional parking requirements for the two restaurants both from the number of spaces dimensionally and for maneuverability um and then he asks you to kind of aine as to whether I guess in layman's terms will this site work based on your design what I could say is that the site currently works it it is a developed property it does have a a um an underutilized building on it does have parking as was previously designed previously reviewed and approved by this distinguished board and currently and prior and hopefully in the future everything will operate the same way that it has been operating so my opinion is yes now let me ask you if if the applicant who controls the the property to I guess it's to the South were to Grant a cross easement um and allow access back and forth for Purp purp of parking would that further butress your your argument that this site would work if there was that relief valve if you will for additional parking next door yes absolutely um currently the the use on the on the property across or south of our property basically is a um uh remind me what's downstairs it's a chiropractor downstairs with two single bedroom apartments upstairs and uh there are substantial number of parking in the front and the rear and here that would be more than enough to handle basically the use within this existing building leaving an overflow ability for potential users from the property that were currently before you to use those spaces now let me ask you is there anything I mean what's the terrain between these buildings uh would there be anything that would inhibit or or complicate somebody parking on the lot next door and walking over to pick up a pizza or whatever is going to be uh served at this potential restaurant it it honestly again I was there yet again tonight it's pretty flat it's there is no there is no slope that is basically conditioning yourself to go up 10% or more between them there are no retaining walls there's no physical structural obstacle that would prevent anyone from parking on this lot here when I say this lot would be uh lot 52 block 19.03 and cutting across to our proposed lot for this application okay now um one of the things that Mr Simmons had talked about is is the the lighting um in your estimation I mean is there adequate lighting forgetting for a moment access from the property next door but as currently proposed this parking area uh and the uses that the applicant is hoping to uh secure is there enough lighting to Traverse the property safely in your opinion yes all right what what what what's the lighting that's out there that supports your position that that there is enough again I I I was there tonight and um I I drove down in this direction which which is Northerly northeasterly to uh to Westerly direction to the rear uh we parking proposed parking 27 through 32r uh there was ample Lighting in here that I was able to see step out of my vehicle walked down in this area in here adjacent to La uh parking proposed parking 25 24 and 23 I walked back in this direction there was ample light between these two buildings and then again I walked over in the front Direction and there was ample light in the front Direction um now certainly we're happy to talk to the engineer that if he feels we need to have any additional lighting to improve on it or add to it or um supplement what we have currently on the property we're happy to look into that and uh and add where potentially may be areas that are much darker than other areas all right um and and I apologize I apologize for board we were talking about the drainage I should have asked you this question Mr Simmons did ask about an existing drainage um grade on the property near uh parking lot I or parking space number 26 I think it's noted on your plan oh okay yes yes and any asks you know where does that water go do you have any idea what that that drainage gr is four and and where does the water go I don't know where it goes um I I was looking to see if there's any existing information to try to get my hands on it um we don't have information enough information information to see where this goes so we'll have to do some additional digging to find out where it goes okay um the um I believe the balance of the issues raised by Mr Simmons would be addressed by our architect and um oh excuse me I'm sorry um the signage on page five he talks about um one that was noted that there was a billboard there's a freestanding sign in the grass area in the front is it a billboard when you say billboard in other words is it a lit up sign you mean or well is it I mean what what's the dimensions of the sign maybe that's a better way of asking the question well the reason why we didn't we did not really detail that sign because we were not planning to use it or expand on it we were proposing to have signs directly on the building for the restaurants and that's what we showed as part of our site plan submission so we did not detail anything on the existing sign as we did not propose um to to modify whether height or width it's an existing sign that current is currently in place all right and that sign would be one that would be removed as part of this application is that the proposal no no that sign basically uh covers the building it does does have the pharmacy U shown on it so what are the dimensions of that sign then I mean do you know I don't know off hand what the dimensions are okay it's a yeah it's a small sign there was an application that's why our application is amended there was an application a few years back to basically increase the height of that sign that was granted and um you know add add uh the pharmacy and others so that sign is not going to change dimensionally it'll remain the same except what's going to be on it correct yes okay yes um now M um M Simmons asked there's two proposed uh facade signs for the restaurants um do you know and maybe this a question for the architect will those signs be lit and if so how so there will be Lighting on those signs but not lit in other words they won't be lit up from behind but there would be directional sign I mean lighting that would be on them okay um and Mr chairman I think with that I have no further questions for Mr nater okay all right um Mr Sim I'm gonna start with you again just because I think a lot of your concerns were addressed so um any any additional questions based on the testimony you heard tonight or any clarifications needed sure Mr chairman uh again referring to the report I prepared dated September 30th 2024 uh with regard regards to the parking demand for the two restaurants uh the one question I think we need uh some clarification on uh I did note that the areas in that have been set aside for the two restaurants were Quantified in the parking calculations and in some areas there was different areas on the plan sheet and if I understood the testimony right tonight you're talking about limiting the areas for the restaurants in order to help reduce the parking demand that is correct yes so I think it's important ultimately if the board would have consider this that we have a a detailed plan that shows the dimensions of which areas are going to be able to be used we've had restaurants and other municipalities where they went into an existing rental area like you described but there were certain areas where it was off limits if you will it couldn't be developed with additional seats or or dining area or what have you and that that satisfied that condition and it also Quantified it so that if the zoning officer was going in or anyone else to check on things they knew what was allowed and what wasn't right okay and and we will have uh that our architect will uh present that as an exhibit you know based on your comments in this uh with regards to the Loading space and in the back of the property as far as uh employee parking uh I suggested that in my report because uh it is a steep area that goes down towards the lower basement area uh of the existing building and the less traffic in and out of there I think from a traffic maneuverability and a safety standpoint especially in the winter time if there's icing and cars sliding down that steep slope I think that would be a a better arrangement for that we we yes Absol uh with regards to the aisle width I agree that in the front parking towards 517 that is existing and the applicant's not changing that that's that is what it is uh what I did do on my plan on the aisle width between the existing building and the building on and the building on the next lot just to the South I did sketch on because I noticed it was 90 degre pulling parking I did sketch on an area uh 20 feet out from the building the whole width and I don't dispute that you may have measured 20 feet or so with what you measured tonight uh but I at one point as you go further to the north that's where I scaled the approximately 14 ft I so that's where I got that number uh and again I think that goes towards minimizing the amount of traffic going in and out towards that rear area just to avoid uh excessive traffic in a narrow Thro of the access aisle uh with regards to the drainage in that area uh I don't know and that's why I asked the question were that great discharges to and in fact since it's down and low it might be a sump with a dryw I I don't know that has to be determined uh and it's for that reason as well uh with the additional impervious uh area for the parking spaces in the back of that rear area uh granted it's a limited amount of additional impervious but if it's coming to a dry well I don't know what the capacity of that dryw is and again I don't think the township has waved that requirement in their resolution or their ordinance rather for anything over 500 square feet to provide some mitigation it may be for example and I'm just hypothesizing on this if in fact that is a dry well it may be there has to be a second dry well there in combination with that to handle the additional runoff the other thing I think is important to so you folks realize uh periodically there would probably have to be if it's not on file already a maintenance plan for that drainage and I say that because periodically the D comes around with the new storm water R and and audits different municipalities spart is one of the municipalities they did audit yes and we'd want to make sure on behalf of the township that we take care of that and address that with Mr Simmons there is no recorded maintenance uh uh document for it so we would be happy to do that okay then with regards to the El lighting plan uh I don't doubt the engineer's uh testimony that he went out there and checked it out tonight what we would be looking for would be some spot isolux pattern to show that Quantified you do have at least a half a foot candle in the various areas and again if it didn't meet that requirement so what additional lighting to take care of those darker areas we can do that yes uh with regards to the storm drainage we talked about that we had some comments on some details with regards to the signings just so it's clear the the only reason I brought up billboard for that freestanding sign wasn't because of the size it was because it was labeled a billboard and I just when we think of billboard it's to advertise some offsite business and we just wanted to make sure there was no confusion that they could advertise somebody separate that's not on this lot on that freestanding sign okay that's where that came from we'll correct that okay and I believe the other items Mr chairman will be addressed when the next witness comes up for the architecture okay M mark thank you um just following up on Mr Simmons comment about the lighting um there is a a section under the design standards for parking that that notes the the lighting standard because it's it's not shown on the plan I don't know if that's something that a waiver would need to be sought Dave I I would prefer if the board's going to act favorably on the application uh to have a condition that the lighting study be done in the field actually to go out there with a light meter and quantify spot by spot what the lighting intensity is and that way we can have a record of it plus we can identify any areas that might have to be augmented with additional lighting and if it doesn't meet the average then and it does need additional light wrting in the form of maybe a poll would that require amended side plan uh if the board wants to see it back or if the board is comfortable providing the additional lighting subject to the review by our office or the building inspector okay I just want to make sure that's thought through uh because it's not shown on the plans right now and we have no objection to to doing that I mean I think it having it recorded in some ways a good idea yeah um there there's another design standard which requires under 18- 5.3 Point H uh item n requires um the parking to have at least 5T separation from a building so I believe that those parking spaces that are parallel along the building will probably require design waiver which was not indicated um on the plans but I I you have a planner here I believe so they're going to provide testimony um and should include some proofs for um the relief for a design waiver request um and I think that's oh there's two other things um one which hasn't been discussed yet I believe there was a comment from someone in the public um at the last meeting who had discussed the um kind of any any consideration for con pedestrian connection between the sidewalk on Sparta AB to the building because um right now it it doesn't doesn't make sense to have a side that leads to this if it's unsafe so I didn't know if any consideration was given to that comment about creating maybe a hatched or striped kind of pedestrian um walkway connection to the building and if that could be provided we can we can provide a cross area that would basically designate hopefully an area where pedestrians can use to access the property and get to the building okay um and then finally um I know it was discussed at the last meeting I don't recall what was agreed to or was what was finally um discussed but I didn't see an updated plan for landscaping um will is it will the applicant agree to um to update and improve the Landscaping at the front edge of the site uh yes I'll speak on his behalf he can also address that but yes we did talk about it last time after the meeting he's definitely for updating okay thank you that's all I had Justin want we start your in this time um yeah I I'm excited to see the the business come in I I think my my concerns are on the parking I am going to defer to our our parking experts here but um I was intrigued by what Mr Simmons was saying about limiting the business for certain aspects to limit the parking I I'm not sure how that would work I'd like to maybe see what kind of plan like how that works um I'm not sure if we're going to see those details in a subsequent meeting our architect has uh when Mr Simmons issu a report she will have a floor plan that will show you the reduced number of seats and and things like that which will uh that's how that's how that's we base this parking calculation on so you'll have that that's a situation where business is good or if you've got peak hours where you know there's a lot of business that's when you would kind of limit yeah and and the other thing too is with uh you know the the cross easement as I said will act you know for the parking will help provide kind of a relief valve and you'll also hear from our planner um you know like I every time I've been by the pharmacy you know by 6 o'clock it starts to get quiet there they're open till 8 uh during the week but that also will will free up some additional parking because you know thearmy peak hours would not be you know at 7:30 on a on a Friday night um so our planner will go into that and kind of give you the Comfort level uh that on this property in combination with the property next door we should have more than enough parking based on on how these restaurants will be set up okay now if you'd like I mean I can just touch base very quickly on on this plan which is the U the plan of the building the plan view of the building and um this is a totally different sheet it's a-100 then this was part of the submission this will exactly this was part of the submission so with on this sheet basically in the in the upper right hand corner it gives you a complete breakdown of uh the parking the restaurant sizes and the parking needs in addition to that the actual image on the left side of the sheet that depicts the areas where the restaurants are proposed which what we talked about it's the uh sheetwise will be the north part of the sheet and the East part of the sheet um of the building footprint basically and if I can um touch on the parking requirements um again top my apology my back is to you but top right hand corner gives you the pharmacy area the total area of approximately 6 1678 Square ft and then one per 200 gives you approximately n 8.39 spots required we're proposing nine uh restaurant 01 total area is400 Square ft and restaurant 1 is the top restaurant on the footprint as shown and basically we use the two requirements uh as proposed or as suggested by the township based on the area the kitchen area is 700 Square ft the eating area is 700 sare ft and if we do it per 50 square ft of eating area basically we come in to 700 divided 50 is 14 spots but if we use it on a on a proceed basis we have potentially 16 divided by 3 is 5.33 spots so we're using the 14 as the guidance of how many spots we need for restaurant One Restaurant 2 is the total area is 1100 square ft again on the footprint it would be the bottom right hand side corner and the same breakdown basically based on the square footage 450 for the eating area it requires nine spaces and based on seats it requires basically three spots so we're using the nine so we added nine plus 14 + 9 and we arrived at 32 spaces that's the breakdown so we do have a uh we do have a a shown in here a breakdown of where the kitchen area is and where the seating area that's basically affiliated with each one of those restaurants what was the date of the revision on those plans those were the 15th the 15th also okay thank you that was my my biggest Point um for me but I'll I'll pass it on and and see if there's any other questions on on that um um again on parking have have you did you do any counts uh as far as the present use you know just the pharmacy there you know what the you know their their peak hours generally it's lunchtime and dinner time is their their peaks because that's when people have a break to go run it in there but did you do any counts we didn't do any counts the the owner well the owner's representative can can uh elaborate on that since yeah he's there all right and but we don't disagree with your general notion that that's probably you know because the other thing too what's happened is pharmacies not just with this one but a lot of them now you know deliver and and things like that so the idea of you know having to go and wait for your prescription is you know kind of become past say right um the other comment I had I I know the police department commented on this their Traffic Division and they did say um when there were prior tenants in these these two spaces I think one was a barber one was a health food store I believe um there were parking issues on on the spot you know um that uh that were there so I just do want to hear a little bit more on you know what you're doing to expand MH what you done thank you do you want to address that point now or looking a little bit more what your response Maybe Colonel Morris's uh police report is memo um so I the police officer issued and he talked about that I think what we've done to try to address that again is you're going to hear from the owner um by by offering up a cross seasment that should provide um you know adequate a relief valve for this parking so it's it's not going to be an issue and since he controls it if we record an easement not only you know the the nice thing about that is it runs with the the two lots and if the owner was ever to sell one of the two uh they would still be subject to that to that easement so we don't we don't take issue with what uh officer moris had said and and that's what we're trying to do as a solution to it okay okay okay may yeah thank you uh for your testimony few questions to start with just to clarify too so everyone I think understands the opening the entrances to the restaurants uh the South Corner that restaurant the entrance is facing 181 correct uh that is correct okay and however the north Corner Restaurant the entrance is facing the thin single Lane parking spaces that people have to back out of is that correct in that top corner so yes the the second restaurant it would be F the doors are shown in here um that purple depiction for the restaurant or for the building itself so they are facing the handicap parking uh facing 517 M okay do you have an estimated volume of customers per hour or vehicles per hour for both spots it's it's difficult to actually have a a an estimated number given that we we were not necessarily sure of the type of restaurant that would be coming into those spaces they're rather pretty small restaurants um I've indicated they're approximately 700 square fet and 400 square fet of eating area so that's a pretty small area um the client is relying on more people coming in ordering picking up and then going home rather than somebody coming in and occupying a space for the next two hours to sit down and have dinner um we are providing seating we are providing a couple of tables in each restaurant so if somebody needs to sit down and eat they can uh but they're like I said they're pretty small size restaurants the uh from what I understand of the parking calculations thus far you're indicating that you the building needs 32 parking space that are required at this point with the reduced seating footprint that's correct well with the proposed seating foot proposed seating footprint it's b32 and in order to get to the 32 U just to make sure I'm following you're creating six new parking spaces in the back section against the undeveloped lot correct we currently this area is been used as parking mostly by employees so we're just organizing that that parking area so what we did is we we showed three parking spaces adjacent to the building one in the rear facing 517 and six facing the undeveloped property in the back but the six are new the six will be new again it's a it's a stone uh covered area so people do park there now do they Park you know the way that we have it shown I don't believe so I think they just come in and pull their vehicle into that space or into that spot but they're currently being used by by vehicles or you know people that work in the uh or come into this building okay what uh my understanding is that the impervious surface the maximum allowed for this lot is 40% and the current existing conditions are 71.7 it's almost 72% in perious what is the new number so that's what we need to know so you're adding six spaces Paving them whether you earlier you made an argument that perhaps it's three not six what is the new impervious surface number that you'd be asking for in additional variance on so what I indicated before is that the the the footprint of the six spaces that in here that we've delineated spaces 27 through 32 partially that that space or partial part of those spaces already paved so they're already taken into account another large portion of it is a stone area which is already again taken into account and depending on how you look at it if the area is being used by vehicles on a regular basis it's technically almost impervious yes well Stone excuse me I mean Stone usually is impious correct no not necessarily Stone by dp's definition it's not it's impervious but everyone looks at it differently the way again if it's Stone left in the middle of the woods it's impervious but if it's Stone in an area where is being compacted on a regular basis then generally speaking it does become an impervious surface so the remaining part of this these proposed spaces in here is basically I can mark it up on this plan on this exhibit is basically a line and I can give you an approximate dimension for it so it's approximately 27 ft by 15t I Used to Know It off the top of my head but I don't it's about 400 square F feet so that's suggesting that it's less than three spaces right those three parking spaces at 180 square feet would be 540 so you're suggesting it's actually less than three I'm not suggesting that's that's the the real situation out there that's what uh that's what we have currently an area that although is is Disturbed area completely Disturbed area but we will be turning that area into impervious so the that additional area is about 400 square feet 45 if you do the numbers correctly that's your testimony that the change from perious to impervious will be 45 corre square feet and I think I think on the plan Mr nater I think it was what 71.7% is the new that was the old I believe 71.7% seven I'm sorry seven y yeah so what that would take into account the extra I guess 400 square feet that should take into account the extra 400 square F feet oh okay can you repeat that again so the current existing was 71.7 what is the proposed that should include that proposed section in here 71.7 that's the new we're happy to look at it you know just to confirm but yes it should include that additional space I mean that additional area so what is the can you can you give me the two numbers what it was what it is currently today and what the proposal is I don't have the actual square footage of the entire area at least shown on this plane I just meant the percentage wise of impervious yeah I I I think the old plan may have had it before you put those spaces back there was originally was 71.7 okay was was what was proposed and that's what those spes okay now part of those proposed bace there was some impervious surface there we just pushed it out a little bit so um be 73.7 I'm being given a number of 73.3 sorry given a number of 73.3 I'll double check it okay confirmed 73.3 okay okay uh only observation for now that is a concern um that's all the questions I have for now but I might come back to this later thank you okay um I have I guess quite a few concerns um I stopped by there today maybe around 3 3:30 there were 16 cars in the rear they were double parked along the side so you have the six spots and every single one was double parked and then there were five going along the side and down to the dumpsters if they're for employees those 16 employees would be for the pharmacy at this point and there'd be no room for more employees for the two restaurants because every single spot was taken um unless other people are parking there from somewhere else I don't know but there were 16 cars there um part of the other concern is the ones that are going down the slope toward the dumpster that is a very steep slope that as somebody mentioned earlier if it rains it gets it's um icy and is that really safe for employees and is that the best spot to put parking spaces you know is has anything been taken into consideration about the safety issues um and another question I have the three on the side of the building are they approved spots at this point approved you me as the prior plan approval by the board town I I don't have the prior site plan number of years ago so I don't necessarily have that in possession to be able to uh confirm it yeah I know they've been used but when the client purchased the property um those areas were delineated awesome I that okay so the ones you're going to put in the back um the six spaces they're double parked now and they're going to continue to be double parked so when we say in the back the the space is uh 23 through 25 no the double Park is 27 through 32 yeah that's why we're trying to organize this area so they're not going to be double parked so really who Parks y 16 cars are in the back did notice tonight there were quite a few cars to be honest and I was going to ask the client who who is parking cuz the practically there's nobody coming into the pharmacy so I'm not sure why so many vehicles are parked in this area but nevertheless certainly would be able to post sign that says parking for um patrons only for you know clients only for whatever the case may be uh anyone will be subject to Towing so we're we will control that via signage in here and I'm sure the client will be happy to even install cameras if need be to identify someone imagine like why anybody would even want to be parking back there but you know if they are part of the employees I don't know what the operation is like where would those go if they're not being double don't believe we need we have 16 employees in the pharmacy it can't the square footage of this Pharmacy won't be able to accommodate 16 people working there but I know I just thought it was strange yeah I I agree it is I by organizing the parking and delineating the parking it's going to make life a whole lot easier Whenever there is no organization people do tend to park wherever they feel like parking but adding lines in here and posting signs will basically enforce that and and push people to park appropriately okay now at the end of um spot 32 yes to the edge of the property how much room is there I I can't see anything from here it it's practically on the property line okay so now the line is on the property line if that's the case you're blocking the access road that would go to the undeveloped properties in the back we have no idea what they will be but this is an access road to them and you have to be able to either put in a delivery truck or a moving van or whatever the case may be [Music] so can you put exist can you put new spaces in an access road so what we're not we're actually inside our property although we're on the line but the parking is inside the property it doesn't not encroach into the easement as proposed um there is a a rather u a small retaining wall at the end adjacent to not identified in here but parking call it number 26 on the plan there's approximately about 3 ft between the limit as delineated and the the wall if we need to push that parking to give it another another foot or so from that easement I think it wouldn't be a problem taking all of these lines as shown in here and just pushing them down into our property an extra foot so you have that additional foot to get to the property ti so from the end of spot 32 how much room is there for the easement like I said the line the the division line between the end of the parking and the easeman is right along the property line so the vehicle will be parked on our property it's not going to be parking on the easement or in the easement but how wide is that easement at that end it's it's the existing width we're not changing the width of it what but I can't see I'm asking you what the WID is I think it's 40 I believe it's 40t 40t yeah okay so we're not encroaching into that 40 feet um when you talk about the cross easements with the chairo tractor there are four spots in the front and two handicap there three along the side uh there were cars in all of them today in the rear they were empty but it was the middle of the day and those are residents back there and there's a child's little house and playground um so that parking I would believe would be the residents back there and um if you have people overflowing and going in and out that would raise a concern too with children and can you tell me how many spots are required for that other building and how many extra spots are there so if if you don't mind I'm going to refer to the beauty of electronics these days so I'm looking at an aerial image of the adjacent property and what we currently have is exactly what you stated the is one two three four five parking spaces in the front one of them is is a designated handicap space two or handicap they share oh yes that's correct two or handicap yep yeah they share that act hatch area then on the side there's one two three four five head-on parking to the building and in the rear and there's a shadow that is cast over but we have one two three four five so there are six spaces that face the rear property the undeveloped property and there's one two three four and six spaces that face the back of the building so there are there's six spaces there are six spaces back in here if I'm marking the exhibit A1 there are six spaces here there are five spaces in the front and there are five spaces on the side so 12 + 10 there are 22 spaces spaces the single single bedroom requires 1.8 spaces per rsis so that's 3.6 generally that's four spaces you always uh go to the next higher number so that's four spaces for the for the apartments and with regard to the um chiropractor again it's based on square footage I'm not sure yet what the square footage of that uh of that building is what the footprint of that building 75 there one bedroom apartments I thought you said before there were two there two units each one of them is one bedroom all right um so it's about another four spaces so in total you need eight spaces and as I said we have 22 spaces so technically we have 14 additional spaces that should be vacant empty at all times that can be used as an overflow from our application it does just concern me with the children's playground equipment back there understood yes um you also said that um you don't know the volume for the restaurants or anything but then how do you have a business plan because any good business plan would start with a calculation of anticipated volume you'll hear from the owner uh on on that okay all right just back to the parking one more time or to the uh congestion going back to Corporal Morris's um letter you did address the parking part but the last statement that he makes is that it exits onto Sparta Avenue which is already heavily congested State Highway adding more Vehicles will only add to the already congested State roadway which will increase the possibility of traffic incident and crash so that part of his letter has not been addressed I in and not to take anything away from his antidotal observation I the building's already there the dimensions are already there the I mean no matter what you do here is going to increase the the traffic I mean it's there's nothing to suggest that we're introducing a youth again this restaurant's the restaurant use is is allowed that is going to so exacerbate the traffic that it's going to you know take this level of service uh that may be a c and drop it down to an f um you know if the if if you took his his uh uh view literally then nothing should ever go on in this property again because no matter what you do I mean you have 2500 square F feet of vacant space the way he's described that if you return to the vitamin store and the hair salon you're going to add traffic and that traffic is going to go on Main Street and that traffic could potentially increase the likelihood of accidents and congestion we don't disagree with that but I don't know what you do about it besides not developing this property or or owing it to ever be used well restaurants would requ require more parking than a hair salon well but but also too restaurants are generally on off peak hours I mean for the I mean if a successful restaurant is you know 6 to 9:00 at night when that traffic is reduced it's not during you know the morning peak hours maybe at the tail end of the evening peak hours but it's also on weekends which the traffic is also significantly reduced than what you would see on a Wednesday at 5:30 in the afternoon maybe that would take a traffic study yeah all right well those are some of my concerns um and I I guess the slope I you didn't really address that in the rear and making are though should that be the best place for a parking spot given that slope and the danger that it would pose to employees in the winter again it it is and I'll let the the client address that but he does maintain it in the winter I don't believe he's ever had any issue at all from anybody sliding or or falling uh in the rear so provided that they maintain it on a regular basis and they keep it free of any icing uh that is a responsibility that he has to care okay and I don't know if the owner's going to come up later but my one uh point that um bothers me is every single time might have gone past there or in there the uh car for the pharmacy the delivery car is in the handicap spot we'll make sure that they remove it from the handicap spot unless it's a person that is with a sign I don't know we'll check on that and we'll make sure that it is addressed okay that is kind of bad that a pharmacy would I know right um doesn't make any sense so for me again not to keep harping on the parking but that is a big concern now I don't know if the Overflow is from the you know the apartment um units um but not knowing what kind of restaurants are going to occupy those units is is an issue because you know we don't know how many spots you're actually going to need we don't know if those tenants are going to offer breakfast lunch and dinner or just dinner not knowing that is an issue and the the whole parking obviously is an issue that's it for me we understand but then again you know we're basing all of our calculations on the zoning and what's required by the township so you know that we are we took your your comments last time to heart and we made the change necessary to make it work for the proposed use for the proposed rest y so right now we do meeting and what we're offering is an overflow across the street as the client owns both properties which would address potentially that situation okay thank you so I'd like to to go back to touching on on the potential traffic situation I know a lot of people have have focused in on the parking and and it's been explained and re-explained on how that that's going to happen um but but to to janette's point and us not knowing what what the tenants are going to be like also knowing that restaurants as as you've stated and has been testified that the intention is for people to come in pick up their dinner and and leave which means there's intending to be a lot of turnover and a lot of flow um whether whether it's at peak hours or off peak hours Still Remains to be seen because we don't know what the tenant is going to be who who the tenants are going to be but what we do know is that trying to make a left turn out of that parking lot onto the main road there is hazardous on a good day um so is there any thought to how traffic would flow into and out of that lot and what could potentially be done to mitigate any any safety concerns I I don't have any information as to as to historically there's been any accidents in the area or any accident reporting uh reported for anyone trying to exit the property making a left turn um certainly I'm happy to to ask um Police Department to see if there was any record information on it I yeah I would I would absolutely appreciate that because that's um to me that's one of the larger concerns I understand that that the parking lot size and and shape and so on that there's a impervious coverage also another issue a lot of a lot of other things that are internal to the site that are but my main concern is okay somebody's gone in there to go and grab their dinner and then of course you know now you've got a cross-hatch section for for pedestrians potentially walking in somebody's trying to come out and really quick you know make a turn and then you've got pedestrians there you've got turns there you've got you know sight lines that are that are difficult on on a regular you know under under normal circumstances um so yeah any thought that can be put into the the entry and egress of of that space really I I would appreciate that I mean it's it's we can't change it it's an existing driveway cut as it presently provides access as it has been since it was approved by this board when when um uh the application came before the board not you true but there was also a lot less flow I'm not sure about that I don't know if there was a I've lived here a long time yeah there was a lot less flow but again I mean the uses being proposed or permitted no no I I I'm not I'm just asking if there could be consideration as to as to how to mitigate that but what would you mitigate though that's a question if there has never been any any issue or any accident reported well you just said you don't know if there's an issue because you haven't spoken to to the police department it would seem to me that you're suggesting like no left-and turns if if that's a thought then that's a I mean you I don't think there's any other businesses along the stretch of road that would would do that it would also you know effectively um well there are no other businesses also that are that close to the intersection right everybody everyone is a little bit further down when when this was designed you know 50 years ago when it was approved I think if you had a crystal bow you'd do it differently but I think to to take that drastic no left turns and all that would do anyway would would force all of the traffic to come out make a right and then try to make a U-turn somewhere else along one of the properties on Main Street think about that right so if they're making a right and then they could follow the normal path and make the right into the the shop the the Stop and Shop plaza and go down the other way if they needed to um I mean there there is there is a cycle for for potentially turning around if they had to but it it the beauty about traffic is that a lot of times when I'm not a traffic engineer but I just know enough to get me in trouble but anyway the the idea behind it is that you couldn't ask for an ideal location because it is controlled by the traffic signal which is immediately adjacent to us so when the traffic signal turns red this is the ideal time to make your left turn or right turn because all the vehicles coming or going are stopping and it allows you for brakes between the vehicles to be able to see to make that left and that's probably what was reviewed at that point in time when this was approved 50 years ago and said yes we don't have an issue with you having an exit and making a left turn on to 181 um this is this is our our our basically you know uh uh only way into the property um call the money maker into the property having someone going around in circles you know right turn and a right turn and a right turn to come back they might do it once but they're never going to come back again so well that's not even so much into it's out of I that's what I mean out of you forcing him to make a right on a driveway that's existed forever making a right on a left well because into there's there's a you know there's a secondary Lane because there's a secondary Lane that goes into the entrance of of the Ocean State Job Lot so there's passby traffic to to make the left into it would be more about making the left out of trying to cross over two l in order to be able to make that left um courtesy goes a long way uh I I own a property um that hang on I own a property in hacketstown that has the same exact situation right out of traffic signal and I have to cross two lanes to make a left and I've been there for 10 years and uh never had any issue because in addition to visually looking at the you know the red traffic signal to make a left people do stop for you and you make it left and I've never had any issue at all um trying to exit the property now again it's it's difficult to Bel the subject at least from my point of view whether it's best to do a right turn going up to the light going down the street making a right to come back um or not I understand where you're coming from okay no I just wanted to make that point that that I I truly believe that that's a safety issue too right that's what I'm saying there's a pass going in you just can't com out you're saying there's more space I have no further questions I've got a couple just want to run through some been answered already so I'll try to keep them short the ones that uh that haven't been um so in terms of the easement I'm still unclear what that easement is so if there's the easement that allows both properties to use that um would that allow the people from building from the building from the uh Physical Therapy Building to use the parking spaces that run alongside like 20 through 22 how do how do you restrict that or or do we need to look at both sides together if we're going to look at that easement it won't be cross easement between the two only oneway easement between this property and this property the current property under consideration and the property south of it so would be so they would not the other building would not be able to use those parking spaces correct okay um and the easement would be irrevocable so if one lock out sold the other okay be subject to that okay um so onsite circulation um I'm still concerned with the aisle widths you know does does does the widths as shown on your drawing there uh do they conform to the standards and I didn't see any measurements or I don't see any requests for um for any waivers or anything but for instance if I look at if I look at parking spaces uh 20 27 and 28 and then I look at the loading space you know is there enough of a is there enough of a circulation to conform to The Standard of of awith what I what I provided uh uh through prior testimony is that that space the loading space would be restricted certain times of the day that we would not be occupying those spaces again I'll I'll let the owner testify to that but Our intention is to basically only utilize that loading space when there are no vehicles part in those spaces 23 through 25 or 26 or all the way up to 32 I hear that I'm I'm still concerned you know what happens if if if someone goes back to unload and then those parking spaces are full how does that truck then turn around there's got to be a width to allow maneuverability maneuverability in circulation I do agree yes that is correct I mean the only way that would do it is to back up in a in a form in a in an easterly form up the driveway come back to the edge of the existing paved area and then move forward toward the exit that would be the only way to do it uh if the vehicle the truck that's coming in which we don't anticipate I think last time we provided testimonies that um deliveries are only in the form of um uh Vans especially for the food items they're not looking at big trucks that are going to come in to deliver food or deliver supplies okay so so if I look at so I I even I look at the remaining spaces I'm I'm not sure because I don't see on the drawing anywhere what is the aisle spacing between say 31 32 and 26 and or 24 and 23 you know and does it conform to the standard it does yeah actually and um I can tell you that it's approximately 30 ft from the end of parking space 32 to the beginning of Park parking space 23 so it's Temple okay space in between and do you know what the standard is there I I could look it up do you know what it is 24 ft generally is what you strive to have okay and then if if I come down the easement and I look at spaces 20 uh 20 through 22 I think was mentioned before that there are um head-on parking spaces along the uh was it lot was it lot 57 there which would be the um Physical Therapy Building so if I was to look at the aisle space between these parking spaces and those parking spaces what is it and does it conform to the standard uh we have two Dimensions uh my Dimension based on my measurement tonight and the dimension of the engineer based on his site visit and they vary from 20 feet to 14t I did not measure that area uh which is the tightest area um basically to to the northern part of lot 52 building uh across from space 22 I did not measure that area in the field tonight to see because so I wanted to see a real vehicle parked in that area to see how much space we have left between so do we know if it conforms or we don't know if it conforms so it doesn't conform if it is 14 ft it does not but that would require a waiver that would require a waiver yes um okay so a little little concern I'd like to get more clarity in terms of what wavers are required and where they're um let me see what else I got here so parking space quantity so I a little confused here so help me out so when I look at at your drawing uh C3 I think for the restaurants you you felt that the restaurants required a total of 23 spaces which was I think 14 spaces for restaurant one and nine for restaurant two when I look at Mr Simmons report Mr sers I thought you felt that there was 33 required for both restaurants would I misread that those are based on the scale Dimensions that I had uh as far as the area goes now my understanding is with what they're proposing tonight and correct me if I'm wrong they're proposing to restrict the area that's going to be used for a restaurant which would decrease the number of parking spaces required So when you say restrict the area in terms of the the um the area that's used to the the the service area that's used to calculate the parking yes okay so what we're saying then is is that for restaurant one the uh eting area would be restricted to 700 700 Square F feet and for restaurant 2 the eting area would be restricted to 450 Square F feet I believe 400 I'm correct oh 450 correct okay yes okay um well either of these restaurants be offering delivery and if so where were the cars would they be stored on site where would where would they be okay and we talked about the sign and talked about the impervious coverage yeah so um I I have concerns with the with the on-site circulation um looking to get some some further Clarity there there as as well as the um I guess the what you know are there any waivers required that we're not seeing I guess a complete list of all the waivers that would be needed before I could go okay thank you thank you may I ask another one of the follow questions just based on some of this discussion uh first talking about easements the building to the South does that building currently have any existing easements in place say for instance with the building to its south or any other easements re okay and the other question is I've kind of heard two areas tonight of being proposed for employee parking uh first it was uh near the loading space area so that there's more control over the loading space in case you needed people employees perhaps move and and then I think I also heard no it's going to be in the back against the uh Northeast property line the new spaces that you would put up there in line is it uh which one is it I think you're going to both correct yeah that's correct so we're we're proposing basically what we're saying is spots 23 25 26 would be designated for employees and this again can be designated for employees uh spots 26 through 32 so the area entirely in the back can be designated for employees okay so that's what you're proposing is both correct okay all right that's all I have for now thanks no problem okay I have have a quick question question for Catherine when we're talking about parking the uh U the parking for employees is included in those numbers those those required numbers right correct yeah just wanted to clear okay um why don't we uh go to the public oh I'm sorry yeah if we go to the public if there any questions on a testimony that you just heard know I had to ask questions right at this stage if we can like to keep it to just questions to the applicant and then comments we can save fin thank you do you swear firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God yes please state your name and address Beth broadrick Northshore in Sparta just a quick question based on all of your parking designs Beth keep talking to the microphone thank you um can you get a fire truck in there with the proposed parking um the only point that's proposed is in the rear of the building not in the front that's is existing workking in the front all the way around three sides of the building are all existing and delineated parking in the back is basically a I call it chaotic parking people just park in that area so we're trying to organize it so it does allow for a fire truck to come in as I stated just answer as I stated it's 30 feet wide between the parking spaces so also 14 ft so I'm just curious like I I finish if you don't mind so so the idea is that there is plenty of room in the back to allow for a vehicle of that size to be parked in the aisle between the two parking okay so wouldn't necessarily be where I think we heard 14 ft so wouldn't that the 14t space wouldn't be an issue it wouldn't be an issue no you you can get a vehicle of that size through a 14 foot space actually Lanes on the road are approximately 12 ft um and you get all sorts of vehicles that travel within uh those Lanes well I was just thinking with fire trucks you're looking at hoses and stuff like that and people getting in and out and a lot of activity around the truck so they need more than the standard travel Lane for a vehicle but my other question is since there are residences next door and there is at least one child there have you accounted for the possibility of a school bus stopping there and residential traffic in and out right next door well it is currently residential it is currently being used it is currently being used by folks that that uh own vehicles and exit and enter the property more concerned about a school bus and a young child I don't believe there is a sign for school bus um in that location I'm not sure is there one is there is a the school bus stops by the highway there you can't te talk right now until you're sworn and called as a witness you're so anything he said will be ignored and stricken from the record okay he will provide that testimony the other questions I have are more for in andout traffic because we have a Burger King with a drive-thru we have a proposed 40 unit Residential Building going back in that area as well so that's going to change the traffic pattern you have a right-and turn lane coming from between oddlot and 7-Eleven coming down you mentioned when the light turns red that people would be courteous or there's such a thing as courtesy but when you have traffic that does not come to a complete stop at that red light and then you have traffic coming out of oddlot where people are taking advantage of the break and traffic and I used to work on that corner at 70 Sparta Avenue so I know what the traffic pattern is it's a stinking nightmare so I'm concerned like these guys are with the circulation of traffic in and out when you have a hot mess of an intersection where the traffic doesn't really stop and you're saying well people are going to be courteous I would just ask if you put thought into the actual two lanes of traffic coming and going and people going off as I stated before this is an existing existing driveway with an existing use and an existing operation and people come into that property and exit the property on a daily basis and they make a left as they make a right and I'm going to challenge you a little bit because I've lived here longer than that building I've lived here 50 uh almost 50 years okay I'm here longer than the 517 bypass I'm here before that building was built and when it was the Tel's Appliance and it did not have the traffic that's there now it did not have the volume that light was not two lanes of traffic coming from Pope John and Newton or two lanes going through the intersection up the hill right by your location so I'm just asking if you looked into or considered that fact with the traffic patterns because if you've got all of that going on and people driving into telephone polls at that intersection already I really have concerns like these guys do about the traffic especially with the residential area and people that are whizzing through there and another Residential Building going in there I don't know much about the Residential Building going in but thank you for the information I think that that should be something considered maybe with you guys and also last question with parking because you're putting in a higher volume business or two higher volume businesses than then a hair salon that moved or I don't even know if they're working and then the nutrition store that went out are you required to increase the number of handicap spots we're not required to increase the number of handicap spots however though again the uses that you you've suggested that were there are uses that that have a consistent um attendance of patrons on an on a regular basis every hour you have appointments and you have more than one shair for the hair salon and you have more than just one customer coming into um to the other facility on a regular basis um restaurants have Peaks and valleys but what I'm asking is for zoning do you have to change it is what I'm asking because I don't know I don't do this and also is tra is Kurt moris going to be doing a traffic study for you guys person he's the corpal Mars from the sparta Police Department he he offered a report I don't think he's doing a formal study okay I can over that I guess I I can give you a copy of it right now if you want that'd be great but again I'm I really think that you know maybe you guys can take a look and address the I think right now it's really questions for the applicant well yeah well I didn't get an answer on the number of Ron I didn't get the number of SP the answer on the number of space handicap spaces and if that has to increase handicap spaces are based upon um the ADA requirements okay and they are it's 1 per 25 and then another when you go over 25 it's it's another one and then so it's based on the total number of parking spaces in a lot not based on zoning not based on building size it's based on the number of parking spaces and so total for the building if it's going to be if the number of spots is going to be increasing then is it possible and the number of handicap spots would have to well they have to get over 50 spaces in order to for that to increase another one so right now I think there's two handicap spaces correct because there are 30 whatever spaces I think there's 32 spaces on site so they're under the 50 they're over 25 so they you know under 25 it's one space over 25 it's two spaces but until you go over 50 you're not hidden more than that okay so depending on how the parking works out and overflow and next door and stuff like that that could change it not Rel it's related to the site itself so even if they have a shared parking access agreement with the other site that doesn't impact handicap because it's per per parking lot okay all right I'll talk to C I can get the other reports that I'm looking for please raise your right hand we just SW at the prior hearing uh do you swear a firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you God I do please state your name and address and spell your last name Jennifer Derek d r i c k s tap into Sparta I just have a couple of questions on our favorite topic parking um there are a number of issues that's that are based on assumptions um the food delivery is only going to be done by a van um it's going to be mostly pickup um and that the peak hours of the businesses that are going into these two spaces are going to be primarily their peak hours will be not impacting the peak hours of the pharmacy so these all are all assumptions that we don't really know because we don't know who the restaurant what kind of restaurants or which resta restaurants are going to be there are these things that can be codified into the resolution that food delivery will only be made by Vans by that the primary um business model of these restaurants will be mostly or some percentage of pickup if we're making an assumption on how the circulation is working the Ingress and egress the safety of the parking lot I was going to bring up the issue that FL Holdings is looming with potentially 80 cars whose circulation plan also takes it through the back of those buildings that exist now adding to circulation concerns um Can these unknowns be codified into the resolution will the resolution be subject to the businesses once the tenants once they're known coming back for an application to make sure that they meet these assumptions that's my question was that okay I don't answer questions for Witnesses so yeah the engineer can answer if he has an answer right I'm not sure what it's a legal question I mean the board can impose whatever conditions it feels appropriate and Mr colins recommends you're making assumptions you're giving testimony but but the the the assumptions you can't you can't limit it I'm not really sure what you mean like you can't say it can only be an Italian restaurant it only be a pizzeria I mean well one of the questions was one of the concerns of the board members was the large trucks coming in to make deliveries to the restaurants and the answer to that was it's not a concern because it will be delivered by Van like that we could agree to I mean get a tractor trailer in there yeah okay that's and then the that that that it's going to be mostly pickup but you don't know that because you don't know who the tenants are the the business model of the restaurants yes yeah I mean I I I'm not going to say it's because I don't even know how you quantify mostly pickup is% but there'll be a portion of it that'll be pickup yes I'm just saying because that's the testimony that's being given in answer to the concerns of the board members and so how does that get handled in terms of a resolution in an approval should that be given that's my question thank you you're welcome anybody else okay so seeing none I'm just doing a time check uh can I just ask one more from the or is my time up okay the cross easement that you're discussing with the building next door for overflow is it for a certain number of spots because if that business changes where they require more spots um or is it just I have to come back to you I I I mean I I don't think you would I mean it's up to you I mean you could limit it to a certain area on the property I mean look the reality of it is if there's no parking on the one thing if somebody wants to go there whether it's to the pharmacy or the restaurants they'll probably park there as a as a practical matter anyway and quite frankly I don't think if you want to see this stretch of of business succeed because they're all connected Burger King I mean they kind of all flow together you know do you want to be so Vigilant and say and and C you know say to somebody hey you know you're going to the Burger King but you're parked over here that's not right I mean we'll give you the cross easement um I mean if you wanted to say 10 spaces and we could delineate I mean but I I think if the goal here is to try to see businesses Thrive and and and you know continue um I don't know if you want to be that restrictive I think a general cross easement would be sufficient enough where at least if somebody's going to park over there and run over to pick up a prescription or pick up a a sandwich they don't have to worry about necessarily being accused of trespassing but if a new business comes in there and it has a certain number of required spaces and there is an easement it's going to have an impact it would I mean each property would stand alone you're right I mean if if there was such a business that came in that captured all of them but I think how many spaces did we have there uh on all property or next door uh next door I believe 22 spaces yeah so I mean you I don't know if you'd have a business in there at least based on the size of the building and you have the two apartments up that would require more than 22 spaces I guess maybe if another restaurant came in exactly yeah you could that's what you thinking but again if another restaurant came that would probably be an indication that you know that may be the businesses that are ultimately going to be something that you that's appropriate there I mean you know you know I do a lot of this work I mean you know hacketstown was kind of a deteriorating Town what saved it is there's restaurants all over the place and I'm not saying it's Mars toown but I I mean I think ultimately you as a community I mean if there's a business model that's going to work I don't know if you want to necessarily I'm not saying look you give a cart blanch to park on the street but I I don't know if you want to necessarily say well you know if we're going to have this cross seasment you're only allowed to have five spaces if if that's what you want we'll certainly do that I mean we're not trying to be uh confrontational I'm just trying to play Devil's we were going to leave it open and and have it available to you know to almost not limit it in any way now you're right would that you know if a chiropractor goes out and you know an Applebees wants to come in you know that may pose some problems um uh you know but but right now I think we've got based on the square footage of that building we have enough room to do you know to to offer it up just as a general cross uh parking access easement thank you okay so um the way we operat is we go till 9:30 with with with uh with testimony and then we we have leave the last half hour of the meeting for uh for the other business that that needs to be required um I got two minutes that got two minutes we'll talk very for now kidding um and I think you've got some other people that you want that you want to provide testimony three more yeah so would you be willing to move this I pick up at at another date I I I mean look we're not going to finish tonight even if you gave us some more time so for for continuity sake what um what do you have uh Dory I think we're October 16 you here on the 16th especially because you don't have a car John you around the 16 okay yeah I that that would be um you're good okay the 16th would work great and we'll get you up first on next okay um all right so we'll carry it to the 16th no further notice I guess Mr we'll carry to October 16th no further notice at 7 p.m. at this meeting room and will you extend the time frame I will certain agree to extend the time thank you thank you thank you thank you guys thank you everybody thank you evening all right what I'd like to do is is just take a real quick five minute break if we can we'll come back we'll finish up on go through the other items okay could you also submit that to us yeah can we if we can get a a copy of that that would be great e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e all right so this brings us to Other Board business so tonight we're going to talk a little bit about the pdrm 2 Zone and you know do we want to consider looking at uh modifying the ordinance in a way that that puts a a Max size on the on the on the building size and also brings in the required impact statements similar to what we did under ordinance uh 2221 uh for both the E uh Economic Development Zone and pdrm one so we had some discussion last time and I think Katherine you GNA put some thoughts together so maybe do you want to kick it off sure um so as mentioned at the last meeting um when we discussed this the um Township authorized us to start looking at this Zone um as I mentioned I would basically do an analysis of what had been done by the subcommittee to date on this Zone um look at what the changes were that were made to the Ed Zone and the pdr1 zone as kind of guidance to looking at the PDM 2 and then look at the pdrm 2 Zone give it an analysis to understand and remind ourselves why we didn't change anything back when we did the Ed and pdm1 zones so what I did um was I went through um some of the existing conditions of the pdm2 Zone there are two properties in the pdm2 zone the tax data provides that um block 16005 Lot 8 which is 606 houses Corner Road is approximately 137.5 acres and 16005 lot 69 which is West Mountain Road address is approximately 157.6 acres for a total of almost 295 acres for the two properties in the zone the PDR 2 zoning ordinance is one that is probably unique to most of the members of this board in the way it's written and what it provides for as a permitted use and that is what's called and you'll see it a lot if you read through the Zone what's called a plan development plan development is something and there's citations to the municipal land use law the ml in that zone that um discuss what plan development is and gener what the ml all allows for is that pretty much for large sites um you you can plan things out so you can um basically do like a mini development within a property because it's so big and there's certain requirements attached to that in the mlul about providing open space um and um other other things to whether it be economic or residential plan development Etc so it's a little bit different in that it's not not just permitting a use but it's permitting basically you have to come up with a big design of the site and include any of and you can include any of those permitted uses and what it allows for because of that is that there's kind of an overarching tract so the overall tract so those two properties each of them are their own tract um they have a tract requirement for that open space so it's not like each little parcel if you parceled it out would have an open space requirement rather the site as a whole the tax property as a whole has its own uh open space set aside requirement and then an overarching kind of impervious coverage requirement which is again not something usual you'd see for an in for a very large property anywhere else in Sparta um but that is interesting but also confusing because that's going to be your guiding principle so you'll see in this in that zone that there's an impervious coverage allowance essentially or restriction of up to 3% on the total tract and that would basically be the limitation for every single if they broke it up into smaller properties if you broke it up into those smaller properties 3% would be the guiding for all of those combined so as you develop them you chop into that 3% you basically have to back into how much coverage you get on each little property if you were going to develop them separately as um or in a plan development plan them out Katherine excuse me can I ask you to repeat that again so the 3% is the maximum impervious surface of the so in aggregate the 295 Acres can do the math 295 yeah 295 yeah 295 you could say so the maximum would be 3% of that even just at a holistic level if you were yeah if you're looking at them separately then it's 3% of each or 3% of the total same it's a proportion or nine acres total about yeah yeah let's say nine acres so [Music] um those that is kind of something you have to like I said back into um the requirement is also that there is a 55% set aside or no less than 88 acres which happens to be a little bit more than than 55% on both the sites of basically contiguous set set aside open space set aside that won't be developed um and so that's a protect in and of itself you can't develop that portion of the property um so some of it has to be set aside so those are and that that was already set aside uh with the golden dome application for the soil removal on the last lot so that 88 acres in is in dedicated private open space at the end of houses Corner Road where it's more woodlands and farmfield by uh West Mountain Road so that has already been dedicated at 88 acres and is deed restricted enforcable by the township of Sparta and so there's there's some other requirement ments about uh buffer areas from residential zones uh buffers off of steep slope areas um Etc but then uh what may be confusing if you're just looking at at first glance and what I'm trying to explain is that there's then a section about minimum lot area so that's not to be confused with the overall tract but minimum lot I'm sorry the minimum lot sorry the minimum individual Lots so you can call them individual Lots you can call them uh Parcels whatever so those minimum individual Lots can be no less than six acres so if you're going to P portion out uh either of those tracks they can be no less than six acre sites within that um and then there's a few other bulk standard essentially that are related really to those smaller sites So within those smaller sites there can be um building Heights of Two and a Half stories up to 45 ft um and then the coverage gets broken down further so principal and accessory buildings so building coverage can be no more than 8% of those individual lot areas whether it be six acres or greater um parking areas shall not be more than 12% of the lot area and the total impervious coverage of that six or more Acre Site cannot be more than 15% of the lot area uh unless it's a planned development of more than 250 acres in which they get there some um larger percentages it's uh building coverage of 15% parking area of no more than 15% total imp purage no more than 25% a lot area but what I do want to it's kind of confusing unless you start to use examples but those are within the 3% so those are of the 3% they're not of the total tract area they're they back into that 3% number um and so you can do a little bit of arithmetic and you can work out basically what the total lot area is what that 3% is and then basically how many smaller Lots could benefit or they could sub they could really create out of it um and the reason why I did those calculations as part of like my own internal analysis to bring back to the board was to figure out what kind of coverages and I mean because the tract area doesn't break down building coverage but what's the overall coverage you can get on either of these sites and essentially um at a at the 3% and I'll talk about some other things but the 3% um maximum for the first track the smaller site block lot eight is about a little under 180,000 total impervious coverage and for lot 69 the 3% calculation is just over 200 it's about 206,000 for total impervious coverage so even if you were to develop the site let's say as one giant lot um and not divide it into those smaller lots that have other things the total track coverage could be those two allowances and I did that just because we were we were floating around um ideas about the Ed in the pdr1 zone which talked about a building Max um with 20 it's a 25% building coverage but no greater than than 175,000 so I wanted to compare there's no comparing I don't like using the phrase Apples to Apples but in reality these two zoning ordinances the Ed and P R1 Zone have much more standard bulk standards that you see more usual bulk standards you see in that there's uh an impervious lot coverage total cumulative of improved lot coverage and building together there's a separate building coverage standard um whereas this one there's a controlling Factor on the overall tract that's going to limit to the 3% which is I think far far less than what you see in the Ed and the pdm1 Zone which has coverages closer to 40% on those lots um now those like I said those individual lot allowances if you did subd not subdivide but if you did create smaller minimum lot um individual Lots you're not looking at it ever going to 15% of the total lot it's still 15% of that internal site and it's still limited by that 3% so I just want to make that clear there's one cat to this and that the the impervious coverage for the tract uh Provisions currently include two incentives two separate incentives one being that the coverage could go up to 5% for the total track area if that open space dedication is dedicated to the township of Sparta um Tom do you know if that golden dome who that was dedicated to that was that was just dedicated to open space Bas as a private restriction which is authorized by the municipal land law but with the so it's not public land it's private land deed restricted to open space but the deed restriction for open space uh is uh enforcable by the township of Sparta yes okay and so um the reason why I I bring this up is just that it's it's an incentive that could be taken advantage of but the township is a participating body that would have to accept that land so land comes with liability it can be wet um or have environmental incumbrances it could be contaminated and so the township it's not a it's not as of right 5% it's an incentive if it's a mutually agreed upon um but it is an incentive written into the ordinance so I just want to make that clear that the the 3% is the controlling as of right allowed the 5% is what's known as like an incentive so there's something they they're getting an incentive on to dedicate the land but it would have to be accepted and then there's one additional incentive that's written into the ordinance provision there and that's if the plan development voluntarily provides for affordable housing to the satisfaction of the board and the township Council then the impervious coverage may be increased 7% um and looking through this say I'm sorry up to 7% what what what is up to the impervious coverage is up to 7% now the interesting thing about that provision and just looking at the zone and comparing it to what's allowed in the zone is even under a plan development scheme no residential uses are contemplated so it's a little bit out of place that was just my first glance the whole concept of it is to have this only incentive only if the township Council and the board are satisfied that the contribution that's being made off site it's contribution that is being made offsite to either the affordable housing trust fund or to affordable housing not onsite um is adequate and satisf Factory the township Council so it hasn't been offered never been offered like that um and that would be something that would be again in the total discretion of the township Tom would you give us could you give us an example of that does not allow housing on the site the site is not a housing property it's an industrial so it wouldn't be an inclusionary site atcl not permitted here yeah in fact you see that the ordinance is a plan to velopment for and this one's even more restrictive than the pdm1 Zone in that it's it's for those listed uses only and um it's not as expansive even as the pdrm one zone or the Ed Zone in terms of the listed uses could you give us a hypothetical of how affordable housing would be enabled sure what Happ site there there are variety of ways but one is that um contribution of funds is given to the township affordable housing trust fund and is in in a significant way that helps the township perhaps um and I'll give you kind of easier examples uh grant money to a nonprofit uh like a group home to build a group home for persons with disabilities and to get credit for those one per bedroom that that is actually a very efficient way to get affordable housing credits with affordable housing trust fund another way is to use it as a grant to a nonprofit now the the sa4 has tried to stimulate this even more by allowing nonprofits to receive uh funds from housing trust funds and to either adapt or rebuild places to make them affordable perhaps more than a 20% set aside sometimes even 100% set aside that's very rare uh sometimes it could be used to underwrite or help the costs of a tax credit developer a tax credit developer is somebody who uses federal tax credits to subsidize their affordable housing so that they build higher percentages sometimes 100% in affordable units um and if it ever got to this if the township decided to do it a pro development itself which I don't recommend because that means you have to commit Township funds to it you you could take the funds from this site put in that Housing Trust Fund then use it for a Township site U directly and that is those are mechanisms authorized by the municipal land's law and by the fair housing act um so this is but even some you know frankly oh by the way you can't require somebody to give land to a municipality in a zoning ordinance but with an incentive you can re allow it and if somebody decides with the incentive here to dedicate it to the township itself Township itself that would be the incentive to go to the 5% okay that hasn't happened here it has not been dedicated to the town trip the 88 acres is dedicated to private open space so that for that property is not that that incentive has not been selected um and you the township has some other zones that have allowed this or en encouraged this a good example is the Town Center limited business Zone that the Stop and Shop is located in uh resulted in the dedication of the Green Space uh between Stop and Shop and the property we're just talking about today the u u Sparta Pharmacy property uh that is along Route 517 and in the valley behind the cemetery was dedicated as part of an incentive open space provision of that zone and that zone had like I I would I don't remember a precise number but I think it's something like a 4% coverage but if they dedicated that land to the township of Sparta a 7% coverage and the 7% coverage was focused onto the Stop and Shop property and the Frank Anthony and Frank's pizza or whatever and the corner property over here which could be developed at a at a higher coverage than because they dedicated that land to the township okay so similarly something could happen here like that it's not doesn't look like it's going to happen since it didn't happen on the golden dome property so that's that's sort of the zone that you're dealing with and uh Katherine has some suggestions for you I guess about ideas so I ask one quick followup so is it the for the affordable housing 7% is it simply the contribution of fun funds or the grants or is actually the building of the affordable hous there are ways to do either or either or both okay and sometimes I'm not I don't think it'll happen here but sometimes somebody says well I have another property in town and I would like to offer to do 100% inclusion area or 50% inclusion area or dedicated to a group home or variety of things and if the township was satisfied that that credit was beneficial enough to the township to justify increasing the coverage to 7% the township could so entertain that governing body and the planning board but the governing body would control okay is there a formula for there's no there's no guidelines about what that would be it just leaves it up to the count Town Council on the board to say that it's satisfactory or not um and I will note that you know Tom brought up some other scenarios rather than like the actual physical building or us utilizing another site or whatever um but for any non-residential properties um there there's a what's called called a development fee a non-residential development fee so they're automatically required to provide that if there is a a change in the assessed valuation based on the the building it's a 2 and a half% fee of the total valuation so for some commercial properties that ends up being pretty large so I think that in order for the incentive to really be considered if it ever is just comforter fruition it would have to exceed that 2 and a half% you know to be beyond what would normally be be provided you know um is anyone else it is not a zone that allows H housing in the zone none of those three zones allow housing cor a permitted use and that is not the that is not what is authorized there by that incentive does anyone else have any other questions if I could just to kind of put it in context and my numbers could be a little different than yours Katherine I think we had uh we're probably off by you know some couple percentage but you know if if they were to use the open space dedication incentive on the two lots um so the one lot I think we said it's about the one lot but right now standard you could have 206,000 square feet of impervious coverage with the open space dedication where they would have to do the open space and give it to the town that would allow the the 206 to go up to somewhere I'm guess around three 350,000 square feet if they were to do the 7% for the affordable housing that would allow the 206 uh based on a standard to increase the 500 and say around 500,000 square feet so they're big jumps they're not minuscule um so you know when I when I when when I look at that and again that's impervious coverage that that is not just building size that includes the buildings the parking and everything but that's still some pretty big numbers and again if we're looking at the E Economic Development Zone pm1 and P pm2 trying to make them consistence and there are some differences with the with the open space um I I still think there's some rational at least at at the standard the 3% to keep it at the 175 and maybe have some more discussion around the the two incentives in terms of you know um do we think they really did they really contribute to the to the uh to the Zone the zones I think when I look back when I went back and I looked at the uh the master plan amendments for these two zones it didn't talk about either one of these that I saw so that that's come somewhere after the fact and I can't figure out where where that came in so I want to look at that a little bit more um so that's just a a thought on on on on the sides again I think there's some value in keeping them consistent um I think they're I think there's still you know 175,000 Square fet uh any just for building size again um that's probably within the standard already so but it just again makes it consistent with the other two zones um so yes thank you Ron for providing the other coverage I was going to get to them um just in case we wanted to talk through them and what those might look like um as Tom mentioned you know those are not as of right they're things that require some input from the town but nevertheless they are something to consider what I do want to consider and I appreciate uh Ron and I spoke about this too and we had a very thorough discussion when we did the Ed and PM one zone as well um and my only my only kind of conclusion from the analysis um that I will say or my advice is really that you know the 3% as of right is a is a total coverage allowance it includes the requirement or what would be required um for a building is not just the building coverage so that totally can't be taken up building there has to be roads parking other impervious coverage um you know pads for generators Etc that will add up um generally you know that could be 40 50% of the site so um I only hold up about and kind of and I knew going into this analysis some of the considerations and some of the the what we would be looking at we weren't just saying hey let's look at the whole Zone and what can we take apart what can we add and what can we take out it was really limited to some of those changes that we saw in the EDM pdm1 Zone which were building coverage um some of the design standards and the impact study so that's kind of what the purview of what this was and so in in my opinion um you know if we if we put in a hard number like 175 that's already creeping up to what the 3% is it's it's far in excess actually of what what would be allowed right now as far as building coverage even though it's not prescribed in this ordinance even though that the plan development prescribes only the impervious coverage you back into you'd be really hard pressed to find a building that could be 175,000 feet with only 4,000 F feet of driveway and parking um to support that building so um my only hi my only kind of hesitancy about putting that in is that you're you're providing a cap that's you know far in excess of what is actually allowed right now by a by a proportion um so I don't necessarily be based on on the 3% right correct correct um so I think that you know you I wouldn't want to give someone who's reading the ordance a false sense that they could get up to that port or they they come in because they see that number and they request a variance up to that number because they think that it's a guiding number of some sort um I think the proportionality right now based on the 3% um is a pretty good good good ceiling for in coverage in general for the site um and that's just based on my analysis I know I was you know I went in with the considerations of like like I said the purview of what I was looking in this analysis and that was simply when I saw the numbers when I saw the hard numbers of the lot area versus the 3% coverage it struck me that the the total coverage was very close to the building coverage we were considering considering and it brought me back to when we when we actually did do the Ed and pdm1 zones two or three years ago now um the subcommittee that met on that and spoke about that um we actually were were like why don't we do the prm2 Zone it's right next door and Tom had brought up exactly this which is um I mean I mean those were big chunks to bite off anyway but Tom had said hey the pdrm 2 Zone actually has a lot of protections we didn't go through them really thoroughly but um Tom was very familiar with them and he said you know let's not touch that zone because it's so different and it's got all these protections and it's based on the plan development under the mlul so I think we're good and as I Revisited this you know Tom's voice was in my head and I was like you know he's right we didn't talk about hard numbers back then but he he was right so that's my only advice I think you know I'll that's my guidance to the board you guys control your destiny and and make decisions about how you want to change the ordinance but as far as building coverage I do think that the ordance right now under my my opinion is that it's it's it's pretty good but at the 3% so if they gave money for a affordable housing and you got to the 7% that would be 500,000 square feet of impervious coverage what size building could be put on that I mean if you look at at like a 50% that could that could be 250 right if you look at 50% building 50% impervious it's usually small it's usually a bigger share of impervious to building but um you could look at it from that lens of like a hypothetical 50/50 share again though those are things that the township would have to cons they're not just considering the a gift of affordable housing they're considering what the implications of that would be so um I think that one of the alternates we could look at is capping the building coverage based on the incentives because an incentive is just a bonus anyway so if we did want to consider that building size cap it could be fit into to that incentive the same way it was in um one of the Town Center zones we were looking at it was like if you do this then so um but I think it's already indirectly considered in that the incentives weren't written as of right they weren't like okay if you have a 150 Acre Site you get this incentive it's we have to have a conversation the township needs to weigh its options is the extra 4% in coverage really worth whatever affordable housing benefit we're going to get um how is it going to benefit the town and that's ultimately why there it's not an as of right standard it's not something you just get for having a certain lot size or a lot in a certain area you have to work with the town and the town can negotiate that and work and weigh the risks the pros and cons essentially so um like I said you can fit in kind of a building Max but that may also kind of uh dull the incentive the whole point of the incentive essentially so so one other thing again along these sign I think just to make sure everyone understands you know I think when people think of these big buildings they think of distribution centers fulfillment centers and that kind of stuff so that stuff's already under the old under uh the uh ordinance was updated to say that those are unallowable so what we're really talking here are big storage buildings low intensity traffic buildings um so it's I want to make sure when people see these numbers they're they're framing it correctly in their head so I've been going back and forth on on what you said and I'm still I'm still concerned with the bigger buildings if those incentives kick in um but the other things we talked about why don't you bring them up two other ideas there um so again um you know I think we did some really good work when we um worked on the Ed and Peter M1 Zone and that um that you know that subcommittee met pretty often and um discussed actually before that the state had given their warehouse guidance we were making considerations that I think preceded that um and then when we saw that guidance we had already made some of those kind of leaps so I think we did a really good job in considering ways to um you know mitigate impact um one of those was and uh you know I'll talk about this one more even though it was in the back of my mind but as I started to do the analysis it was something that I think is I think is a very good idea and a recommendation I have is that we had put in development standards for storage and Warehouse uses in both Ed and Peter and one zone meaning that there were in order to because we had a pro we we basically imposed a Prohibition on anything besides a a traditional dwell Warehouse we don't we didn't want to permit um fil fulfillment centers um distribution centers some of those like kind of bigger higher volume higher impact um Warehouse uses which weren't previously contemplated by a lot of municipalities and the warehouse guidance from the state really said you should start to Define these and um and refine them in your ordinance which we did um we had put in basically we wanted there was not just in name only but in actual design and standards we based you know a ratio of the doctors where the doctors would be located on the building um because a lot of those the the number of doctors and where they're located if they're around more than one side of the building they're those generally lend themselves to these uses that we had prohibited so distribution centers fulfillment centers Croc warehouses things that have high turnover high traffic Etc and so we limited the doctors based on a ratio um we made sure that there was no tractor trailer queuing or offsite in the right of ways to make sure there was no additional traffic impact outside of the site we made sure there was Ingress and egress throughout the site that was adequate that there was a adequate tractor trailer uh parking on the site so not just the doct doors but tractor trailers had a place a stage so they weren't waiting on the road um that there was adequate um parking space size for tractor trailers because we didn't have that in our ordinance um that we made sure that there was no idling that there was D signage and pursuant to the D standards that there was no truck idling um we limited the number of building tenants based on how you could break up a building so a larger building couldn't be tenanted by mult like too many tenants we added landscape um requirements we added uh design standards so about building design um we just saw it in the Ed Zone we had the Binger Corp about the materials that could be used on the sign soft on the on the facade um and and the design um so that there were more um you know high quality materials more resistant materials that will last um throughout time that there was um particular kind of focal points on the building like lot like a like a you know entryway ways to to reduce building massing if it was a bigger building um so I think all of those design standards um essentially could get carried over we could just copy copy them into the pdrm 2 Zone because that's given the consistency correct so there would be consistency amongst these zones they're all pretty much adjacent to one another um they all do you know we did we did carry over the language already about the uses about which About Storage warehouses being permitted and the other ones being prohibited so this would only enforce the same standards that are currently being enforced in the neighboring zones C okay can you clarify got the last sentence you said so the design copy ring design standards is one thing what you said right after that though is the uses about the high impact uses for p already done we already did that so the one section that was in the ordinance that changed the pdrm one and the Ed Zone there was one ordinance section like a one Clause that basically changed the existing um warehouse and storage uses in the PM 2 the same language that was in all of them and modified it to say the same thing that says um let me read it real quick storage buildings and warehousing with wholesale storage subject the definition of Warehouse which do not include Distribution Center uses fulfillment centers parcel hubs Standalone or outdoor storage of any kind Standalone parking facilities so was basically and it also carried over the same prohibited uses that we did in those zones so um that is all consistent and I think as a a matter of um making sure that the same kind of Provisions that not only the state recommends but we we as a Township recommended a few years ago with some good foresight should be carried over um to this Zone as well and then in a similar vein um under both the Ed and the pm1 zones we required um certain impact study so an environmental impact study which is already required by the the the general Township zoning ordinance for um for site plans um but we just basically bolstered it and that it was more it was in the zone so you'd see it um wasn't tucked away in the other ordinances um we added specific traffic impact study requirements um for warehouse and Industrial uses again I think that would be helpful to carry over here for the same reasons I said about the design standards to guarantee that we're looking um at you know the warehouse uses that are permitted and not um some of the ones that we we prohibit and it's not just a name only um and then finally there was a blank section or a placeholder section sorry in the ordinance at the time for Community impact statement so we actually did um in the ordinance change one of the provisions was to make sure that that was that was filled um um with an actual requirement for a community impact statement again for all preliminary site plans but we also added it to the pdr1 and the Ed Zone and I think we can just do the same thing here it was a section called impact impact studies required impact stud required impact studies and then it listed out environmental impact traffic impact and Community impact and I think again we could just copy them over and put them into this zone for consistency and if I could and what what that did especially let's just talk traffic for minute because I know if you look at pm2 Zone you know this is all going to feed on onto Route 15 um and so what we what the required State statements do is it set some parameters so it's in terms of here's the requirement you have to meet here's the data you're required to give us to to qu to quantify that what you're really proposing here is really a storage warehouse and not something else but call a storage Warehouse so it gives us the data we need to look at it and similar to the economic development Zone um peterm 2 if there's a change in tenant because a lot of these buildings are built on speculation says they have to come before the full board with the new tenants so it just gives us more data to look at it to to to to quantify or qualify that yeah this really is a longterm term storage um that doesn't have a high traffic intensity or or turnover of inventory on you sound like me I'm learing from the best thank you um so yeah as as Ron said um that was the thought process when we did it in the Ed Zone and the P1 Zone um and it's exactly as he said um and I think it you know I think it'd be beneficial um to bring over in the pdm2 zone I'm sorry what were the other elements of the required impact studies besides traffic uh environmental oh environment and Community impact and Community I think it looked at things like jobs and and that kind of stuff yeah Community impact statements they're not they're not well respected and as a planner you know I think that they're very valuable um but you can there they work around a lot of parameters about Municipal data Census Data um population impact facilities Impact Services um but I think they can be really helpful they can tell a really good story and whether or not you agree with how it was prepared is even more fodder for conversation to say um I disagree with the number you used I disagree with whatever the tax valuation number you used in there um so um I think that're I think they're really helpful especially for bigger uses that could have um you know tax impact or jobs impact or Services impact like police fire Etc what um how much teeth do those three studies or impact statements have in terms of the process um I'd say community has the lowest teeth um for the reasons that I stated that a lot of the levers that you put in those studies could could affect um the outcomes that are you know testified to um I think traffic has one of the higher um allowances and that traffic is a safety is a public safety issue um and some of the teeth that we did put put in that about mitigating level of service we got ahead of it it's not just like oh we have a level of service D and that's what it is it was we put in kind of Provisions that say you need to you need to worry about impacted intersections and you need to worry about level of service from the get-go you know whether it's the existing condition or what your you know built condition is um and I think environmental environmental impacts has teeth in that um it requires the applicant to provide has they have the burden of proof for all that information whether it be endangered species you know um proximity to the aquifer all those things are all outlined actually we have we have a very robust section on what's required as part of environmental impact statement and so um one I think it gives the planning board a lot of leeway to request that data even if they do provide an Eis if it's not up to Snuff based on the ordinance I think it gives them a lot this board a lot of leeway to request more information and I also think it does have impact on decision making um from that information in the development standards is it possible to limit the types of trucks so you mean like size of Tru yeah just is there anything that says we can't do that so I'd have to think about that for further because that would there's things that could potentially conflict so if you allow a parking space to be 10 x 50 but you allow a truck to only be 30 ft long we got an issue um uh so there are things that potentially could have conflict we do um you know we do more about use of trucks uh rather than size of trucks here I don't know if I I don't legal question I don't know I would say probably not JN because uh do both state and federal regulate trucks and they they actually um they they actually not only regulate them they permit them and they permit them to go on any federal and state highways and so if you try to prevent trucks from using state roads or town roads you you really have limited Authority in fact in town roads the only way you can even do something about it is to try to have what's called a weight limit yeah that's and you have to have a study that justifies the weight limit and then you have to adopt an ordinance and then you have to put up signs then you have to enforce it and so that's helped you see that pounds have no authority to regulate how big a truck can be or what kind of truck can go on a road but we can't put in a weight limit not not really not in zoning not in zoning and then when you do it on roads has to be have a basis the bridge on the road can take no more than four tons or the surface of the road is not suitable to take more than four tons or and by the way that's even debatable how enforceable that is but the point I'm trying to get at is zoning doesn't regulate trucks trains planes it regulates uses and property that helps you see the big picture I I I think one thing along those lines that's important to relas too is you know when you look at the pdrm 1 and the PD PD arm 2 zones you know they're we next to each other and they run down houses Corner Road so one of the requirements of the PD pdm2 ordinance from a truck perspective is um trucks can only uh enter pdm2 through a road that's being built from pdrm 1 so so they can't travel up and down houses Corner Road there'll be an entrance at the bottom towards 15 that they will enter and then they would drive up into the Zone from there what that doesn't address is once they leave there where do they go but at least at least the the concentrated effort right there you're not going to see that traffic on houses Corner Road based on the way the ordinance is is put together today Cur the current ordinance at at the entrance to well used to be grenell I think it's interlock now or or whatever it's called there's there's a a no left turn sign for trucks there yes and and and there's a truck weight limit going north on houses Corner Road they're allowed they're basically allowed to go as far as interlock you know um because they nicelock yeah because they have to um they have to be provided access to that industrial place so what we're trying to do is actually bring that back to closer to 15 right now the Zone the PDR M1 Zone starts at 15 and goes up to along houses Corner Road on the left side of houses Corner Road in fact it's good to drive by that area get a sense of how big the area is and it's hard to see the land down below houses Corner row because of the elevation change caused by the um nature and also the 80 years of soil removal at the kazba property along the railroad um it's basically almost visible from houses Corner Road but the concept of the two zones is which they used to be Ed zones is to require a road to come in by the church go through the first property then to Nicolock then through Nicolock then through the next property then through to the golden dome property as a long culdesac that would service those industrial and Economic Development uses in the valley along the railroad but accessing houses corner by the church and with no left turn for trucks at that intersection and that is required in the ordinance uh so it would be an improvement even over the current uh situation and there would be no use theore Ally no further use of the driveway that Kaz deba is built up by West Mountain Road that is probably a 20% grade going down to the former Co soil removal operation so it should not be used as part of there should not be another road connecting to houses Corner Road after this road is built one more clarification if I can then you know one make sure the public has a chance to wait until but just want to talk about the open space dedication to make sure that that I understand it right and then then we can all walk away with the same understanding so you know we talked about the 3% which basically gives you the 175 give give or take you know 10,000 P here or there then you get to the open space dedication which basically takes it you know the 175 up to we'll call it 350 or 360,000 square feet the way you get that is e either way if I understand it right the developer has to have that open space there it's it's the the the requirement to to have that space at the same levels is there where you get the the incentive is if they take that open space and dedicated to the town so that's if I understand it right that's the difference am I understanding that's correct that's correct so the open space will be there it's just a matter does the developer own it or does the town own it and that's there going to be less open space though if they're if it's 5% developable versus three right so that well no this now we're talking about we're talking about dedicated restricted preserved open space as opposed to yard space or grass space or landscape on your property that is not open space in this in the context of this requirement the opposite of impervious coverage is perious coverage the opposite of impervious is really green space but it's usually it means on the lot that you're dealing with this zone is a much larger Green Space on the individual Lots than the pdm1 zone or the Ed Zone in even though there's also the the open space requirement and what I told you before and I remind you as you you can't force someone you can require open space public or private in a plan development it's one of the great features of Municipal an LA for plan developments is to allow requirements for open space dedicated restricted preserved open space but only that it's either public or private and you can't force someone to give it to the public you can have incentive zoning that triggers an in incentive to give it to the public if they get something in exchange for that and you don't have to you know doesn't have to be this particular Arrangement um but as I said before this one the first track the golden dome track did not result in public open space it resulted in private open space so that's that's 3% that's set I don't think that's going to change to become 5% by I don't think it's going to be dedicated to Township you get 5% more only if youed you only get a a couple more percent if you're dedicated to the township of Sparta and it hasn't happened and it's probably not going to happen because it's already been uh exercised as a private open space so but tonight yeah have the three topics I mean I respect everything that that Katherine said and and I don't have any overriding problem with you just taking the 175 maximum total buildings from the pdrm 1 Zone and use it in the pdrm 2 Zone it's it's a cap that probably never get reached but if you like that that's you could add that you probably should add the design standards that she talked about and you probably should add the impact statement standards um they fine-tuning of things that help in your reviews um it's not that hard of a lift you basically Katherine would write a Redline version of that or ordance with those three inserts I think you can even just do it as graphic as just a Amendment to the Zone I don't even think you have to redo the whole Zone that might be be cheaper in terms of paper and cheaper in terms of time and uh you if you recommend it the governing body the governing body can introduce it and adopt it uh if they want to so but maybe that Catherine should write it up too that might help because then you see it see it in black and white or I'm sorry black white and red or blue or something but we should open to the public Mr chairman and we should if I could um any members from the public have any comments or or thoughts on what you heard on the pdrm to tonight okay so I've see none so so um my the suggestion is as Thomas says you know tonight was to kind of just describe what it is we're trying to do get some thoughts out there make sure we all leave with the same understanding of of what what it is we're trying to do um so um I'd like to try to to to to get this on the agenda for um to to bring it to to a head and and and get it to a vote um so um let me talk to to dorian's I if I'm I'm hesitating I'd like to do it at the next meeting um but I'm probably not going to make the next meeting I really would like to be part of this discussion um if the group wants to go ahead and do without me I'd be okay with that too but I you know I'd like to be part of the discussion um to to bring it to bring us to it's a little close to do it by two weeks the 16th anyway okay U because Katherine should have some time to craft it yeah then she would pass it around to at least me and Dave and and then okay then it might get to the board and so you probably I think you need some like month or something like that okay I don't know what Catherine thinks but that's what I think thank you thank you Tom yes reason if it was me I'd say it when's the it's a little red line when's the meeting after the the November meeting November 6th yeah okay now note a caution too the 2nd November meeting the 20th yeah uh I don't know we have that on our calendar or not but typically that's the league league of municipalities typically I'm not sure if we canceled that back in January already we did okay okay so we're only looking at one November meeting so we just have to keep that in mind I think it is important to move this as quickly as we can I agree so so let's let's put on the agenda for the November 6th meeting with the intent that we're going to try to bring this to closure and um if if if and if so um we can uh get something to the Town Council for as a recommendation okay yeah this then because we introduced it today can we vote on the sixth oh we don't have that's the governing body that has the introduction con we planning work do same night yeah yeah yeah so just to clarify the building height if we add that restriction or the building size restriction for practical purposes it really would only kick in or have an impact if one of those two incentives are being exercised most likely right I don't even I mean I'll defer I if you're concerned about it it probably is a cap that isn't necessary but it will be but at least be a known cap right um why do I say that because these numbers that you're using are total coverage they're not the building they're they're like every single piece of coverage including the building and so once you get a big building you start to have a lot of parking okay you you can't avoid it and so but you're trying to make the three zones similar and the concept of having a similar cap makes a lot of sense okay all right so um let's let's let's move on to the next section again look look at the time I'm going to try to to try to shortcut some of these if we can so the next section would be uh updates so Deputy Mayor blumetti any Town Council updates yeah I have uh four updates quick one uh ordinance 2413 was passed these are the last two meetings by the way establishing the uh film filming policy and procedures um I'm sure you've been hearing about that over months now about being film ready so that ordinance passed to set up uh processes and guidelines for uh filming events in in the township second one is we began uh holding a public discussion uh the first of many that come about uh exploring potential cannabis businesses and use in town uh that would obviously at some point involve the planning board and I'm um pushing hard to make sure that happens in terms of especially locations zones and all that uh third is uh we appointed a student liaison for this year to the environmental commission that's a a school year appointment of a liaison uh so we have a senior from Pope John and then lastly last meeting uh if you're interested it'd be good to go back and watch the live stream recording there was a presentation and a discussion regarding the AO polymer super fund site that uh is in near Station Park um and it was about the remediation progress and confirming its safety and it was led by uh representatives from both the US EPA and also eal Sciences which is uh Environmental Services firm that was retained by the township uh to uh review and validate the the history and the studies and the reporting of the EPA and they did confirm that you know their opinion was that it was accurate and it was complete but it's interesting discussion if you want to go back and watch that on the live stream and that concludes my report for now thanks thank you sir uh in terms of the environmental commission Miss dumbar is not here tonight so I'm sure we'll get an update at the next meeting uh the master plan subcommittee so uh we had to reschedule the meeting for this month was still scheduled to meet later this month um the um at the last meeting every Everybody saw the The Hub the survey is now live so great job by everybody getting that live um as well so and I I think there's uh people doing a lot of good things to get the word out to have people take that survey so um you know uh Jenny did a great article I know you've you've been very vocal on so thank you for that um and everyone else involved so please let people know the survey is out there and let's uh let's let's get some people everyone to take it hopefully every everyone of this boards going to go home and and do that sometime this week so we can get uh get your thoughts um in terms of the minor site plan uh subcommittee uh uh Bill's not here tonight uh the good news is that uh we have the July and August minutes will uh will be published with the minutes of of the September 18th which is when they announced so as soon as those posted they'll they'll be up and available for everyone to see so I think that concludes updates and let's anybody else has anything that you'd like to bring up okay all right so that gets us down to resolutions so we have was it three resolutions tonight so why don't we take one the first one uh take each at a time let just get the agenda here so the first res resolution is resolution 2024 d18 which was for um plan board application 24714 jvp Ventures um would anybody like to make a motion to approve resolution 2024 d18 I have a correction to that okay um it states in the resolution that Mr Paka is um well that prior to IPO properties is the owner of the site but I pressed him and asked him several times and he said that uh the owner of the site that the deed was transferred in 2023 to 172 woodport LLC and that is the current owner not IPO properties no on page uh three page three okay so what's the name again 172 woodport LLC now I don't know if somebody wants to verify that but that's what he said okay dor you could make that change I think okay I also have a uh a point to raise on this one discussed during the hearing at least based on my notes we talked about the waiver for the loading space um and it's mentioned in the resolution on page six it's number 12 actually and the the rationale for us offering and and granting the waiver was based on the proposed or the planned uses for the various tenant spaces that the applicant testified to and he they stated that they these tenants do not receive or distribute materials or merchandise so the use restriction in my mind and that waiver should be specific to an alignment with those tenants and that's that's why we Justified the waiver so that if the tenants Chang it's possible that the loading space waiver would not be appropriate anymore so I don't know how we I'm not sure how we build that into the resolution in other words well it's it's Incorporated by the first condition which is that you stuck with the representations and testimony you gave at your hearing um see that one the applicant is bound by their testimony so I guess that means and if the any of the tenants would change they really have to they have to be the same type of tenants who don't need a loading stock is that a standard implication in these that if not really I mean I mean it's is if that's what they said if that's what they were trying to justify their waiver based upon then that's that would be what the site is limited to I don't I don't know whether you could have another condition I don't know what you're thinking of Dean yeah I don't actually have the exact word I wanted the yeah opinion on that because I think we want to protect ourselves that if a tenant changes tenant changes that that are the same type of tenant don't trigger anything they don't they don't go to anybody so they go to the zoning officer at most in this Zone yeah in the Ed zone right now all Tenants come to the board so I think it's pretty protected I mean if somebody tried to do a use that was not one of these uses they'd have to go to this minor slave plan subcommittee and they'd say do you can you live with load the loading dock the way it is there are no loading do no loading space m and most retail now is living without loading spaces so this is a retail uh Zone C C1 Zone I think I think you're protected but it would be it would have to be a change in use that trigger it okay so every change in use goes to this minor site plan subcommittee so it should be picked up there it should be I'm I'm questioning that because you know typically when we get an application well I don't I I don't have I'm not trying to micromanage the whole thing I just don't think there's a way you can write a condition that does what you're saying I don't want to set an expectation that it's going to be picked up because probably would not be picked up but the promise they're the ones that have the problem if they don't have a load space and they need one the gym goes out and an auto park store goes in they're going to want to load ex you know what I mean so but they're going to come to us we're going to say where you going to put the loading do yeah if you're going to put one in okay Tommy is a way to do a condition says if there's a change in use that the owner has the obligation to come to the monite plan and identify them of this condition and put put the onus on them to notify the really no I mean that's what you that trigger it has to be a trigger that triggers a minor site plan application but there would there would be for a big change in use that I I don't think you should worry about it I think it's you you have it based upon what it's proposed there if something comes in that's totally different they're going to have to deal with it and that's what will happen um it just is they're very few retail shops with loading spaces and with loading docks very few that's the Stop and Shop and the former Grand Union which was the uh now the Job Lots are Ocean State so if you're thinking of a if basically I don't think there's a way to to capture that going going forward as a way as a known commodity that is required for something there's no I can't even think of one use that technically requires it I mean he said an auto shop but it's basically you know I don't know what to say I don't have an idea so if you if you have an idea so you could could try to write it but I'm I'm not sure you could have a condition that helps you with this yeah I'm I'm comfortable just dropping the the motion or the idea I don't I would think of it as like this is what they said and therefore they must have one if they didn't didn't do what they said you know like their testimony was they're not going to need it at all at this property right right it's not because just because of the tenants it's they don't need one so then if they do put in try to put in somebody that needs one they they're violating their own site plan by having the truck take up two parking spaces or whatever happens when you don't have a loading space so I think you've you've got teeth through the site plan conditions which is you're not allowed to just use up your parking spaces you know and how many times is that get forced I don't know but but if it if it was a big problem that's what the zoning officer would do is give them a notice of violation that you're basically abusing your site plan because you don't you're putting trucks in four parking spaces or six parking spaces okay okay I'm fine with the others are I had one other issue with it and I'm sorry I can't reference it now I saw it on my computer when I read it but the one we have in front of us is missing every other page yeah so I can't find it but it had to do with them being um instructor Le um gym or fitness studio um page no condition 15 page seven it is there it is there um yes okay it is here so um instructor Le though it I think we were talking more about having classes so one instructor and maybe 15 students and not turning it into a gym because by just saying instructor Le you could have an instructor one onone and that would um change what our thought pattern was so i' just like to add the word instructor uh LED classes instructor LED group classes right as opposed to a trainer a personal trainer working with somebody at a gym okay Dory you can make that change too if the board agrees so that's uh item 15 page seven instructor Le group classes rather than fitness center yes thank you okay so it sounds like we've got two changes one is we're going to look at the change in ownership and then the other one would be to change the uh instructor lead to um uh instructor group Le instructor Le grp group classes okay so would anybody like does anybody else have any comments I'll make a motion okay second okay do I roll call please mayor yes yes yes yes yes yes all right resolution 20248 is passed I we'll move on to resolution 2024-25 for w tree Therapy Services and this resolution uh me memorializes the approval of that uh let want must do comments first is anybody have any comments on on this one okay seeing none would somebody like to make a motion to approve I'll make a motion that we approve resolution 20 24-19 okay I'll second okay Miss Fox roll call please yes yes yes yes yes yes yes all right resolution 2024-25 D20 which was for the uh moralizing the approval of plan board application 24- 720 for Admiral medals does anybody have any comments okay see none would somebody like to make a motion to approve I'll make a motion approve I'll second okay Miss Fox yes yes yes yes yes yes yes all right resolution 2024 D20 is approved so that we're coming down the final stretch so this is the part where we open up to the public for comments on matters not on the agenda and not relating to uh an application any DK's tap into Sparta um I'm going to ask you to go back to that first uh resolution that you just approved um there's quite a bit of effort to contort the facility into a permitted use by making it a sports center I don't if youall that that conversation because a gym in a fitness center is not permitted in the zone so that resolution references gym three times even though that's not a permitted use in the zone and there was a vote taken at this board to make it to agree that the use was a sports center so I don't know if that's something that you need to have reflected accurately in the resolution so that's on page three on page six and seven that might be a good idea to change that to Sports Center yeah so if the board would entertain it it would be a motion to change the resolution to reference Sports Center okay well I'll work with Dory to make that change okay do we need to vote on that again Tom okay all right so anybody like to make motion make a motion second second comments anybody okay roll call please it's good catch May yes yes yes yes yes on day yes all right the motion is approved all right so still in open to the public does anybody else have any comments not trafficly related I promise it'd be okay if it was no I'm that's only until 10 o'clock um quick question at the beginning of the meeting last was it two weeks ago I was watching on YouTube and there was a comment made when you guys started at executive session before the you guys had to stop because it was still recording about a filing not done on time my phone died so I don't have the exact wording of it but I'd like to know what the repercussions are when our professionals are not doing their like and like doing their submitting their filings and everything on time like for the town and also for them as professionals because if we're paying them to do something and the filing is not done for whatever reason and I don't know the background behind it but what's the Fallout for it and how will they be held accountable so so let me try to answer that so what you heard was not the complete story okay um um and and I I can't say too much because it is related to an ongoing hearing but there's more to what you heard there's more of the story than what you heard um and we'll continue to have discussions on that probably in executive session um relative to what's the status what going on and that kind of stuff um but I can't really say much more than that because it is you know but if stuff like that is happening and I respect that if it's executive session and only certain things can be discussed like with regular people but if that's happening how are people going to be held accountable and how can that be addressed and so so again what you heard was not the complete story and I can't I can't say say more than that um okay my next question is I think last year um we went out to bid for professionals are we doing that again this year like for like where appropriate whether it's for you know Mr Collins or whatever are we doing that again for professionals or are we just keeping it status quo or are we doing it next year um again I don't know all the lingo because I usually do Town Council not planning board so so so my knowledge is limited so this board went through the process we started last year voted on it on on it this year it's not typically not done done every year um the board um would have to make a decision to that it wanted to pursue that um right now right now there's you know there's there's no action right now to do that there's no plans at this point okay I didn't know if it was an annual thing again I don't know how a lot of this stuff works cuz I usually do do Town Council but um I was just curious if that was an annual thing and if it's an annual thing why nothing had been done for this year and if it was you know a discussion that was being I think I think what was done before was was was somewhat unusual because because there was a public outcry but it's the annual thing is is the vote in January is part of the reorganization meeting but there is we don't annually go out and solicit uh at least at least to my L my knowledge um um professionals every year it's a very costly um very costly project to do that okay okay can I email you if I think of more questions because it's past my bedtime um I'd rather you not email me um maybe or who can I email because if I think of other like followups yeah I'd like to have any discussion relative to these in in the room with the whole board and the professionals president okay no problem okay and and you know I'd love to talk to you maybe we have coffee sometime but not I just don't like to talk planning boy stop outside of this room okay no problem okay thanks letter that she's referring to I'm sorry Jenny jerck that um matter she's referring to as public record because I have a copy of the filing by Mr Brady that says in his own letter I made a sorry this is late so it's it's not confidential there's no exclusion to discussing the actual fact that it was late I'm I'm not going to discuss it I'm just going to say that that document is a public document okay appreciate the comment any other uh Matters from the public that you'd like to have addressed okay seeing none um could I put in a request that we go into executive session to discuss the matters that are being brought up not now next time because we didn't have really a discussion because the attorney was not here um I guess I guess Tom how does that work in terms of Executives I need some help in terms of oh if you would like Dave Brady to come to an executive session you could ask him to come to a meeting when he's available okay and then you go into close for attorney client privilege communication and pending litigation okay but I I won't be involved in that because I'm recused on that matter okay all right thank you all right so unless anybody has anything else I'd make I'd like to somebody to give a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second I'll second all in favor please say I I I'll oppos seeing none we adjourn and again thank you for everybody for tonight including the public for