who may be streaming the meeting either now or later on YouTube I'd like to call this meeting to order for the record this meeting is being held on March 20th 2024 at the sparta Township Municipal Building located at 65 Main Street Sparta New Jersey the time is now 7:03 p.m. the live stream for this meeting can be viewed at YouTube at www.youtube.com IGN Sparta Township which is SP a r t awp please note the adequate public meeting public notice of this meeting was given in accordance for the open public meetings act I ask that everyone please join and stay on our board as we as begin the meeting with a salute to our flag I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the one nation God indivisible with liy jice for all right thank you thank you everybody um Dory can we have a roll call yes Justin Canalis here Ernie rstat here Christine Dunbar here Mike Sylvester Vice chairman bill enrite here uh chairman Ronde here Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti here Nicholas pompelo here Janette Burke here celest Luciano here Ryan kuso okay thank you um before we get into the formal part of the meeting I just want to take a minute and I want to congratulate uh Nick papilo and Ryan Caruso who have uh received their certificate for successful completion of their land use law and planning uh from New Jersey so congratulations thank you FR it okay um the next item on the agenda is approval of minutes and we have uh three sets of minutes that we're going to uh present tonight uh we're going to try to approve um and I just want to take a minute and and just kind of talk to to the minutes for for a moment if I could um you know we've we've had a lot of discussion a lot of debate on what should and should not be in in minutes um so we you know the group that have worked this and put a lot of effort into it um we've we've all come up with something that um we think is is good we still still have a ways to go to get into where we want but we've got three sets of minutes for tonight so I want to thank the people involved in all that um so with that um the first set of minutes is January 17th 2024 so Tom if I cut just so I understand do we if we have comments do we do that first or do we make a motion and then do comments unless you know exactly what you're changing right now Ron you would U best thing might be to get a motion a second and then have a discussion and whoever wants to propose a change propose it with detailed uh okay I've if you want to just postpone them you could just postpone them I I'd like I I I think again the people have done a lot of work here um and I'd like to try to drive these across the Finish Line tonight if we can and we may be able to we may not be able to but I think I'd like to at least give it a try um and then we we'll go from there so i' I've got a few minor changes the first one but why don't we just start with um would anyone like to make a motion to approve the minutes of January 17th 2024 I'll make a motion would anybody like to second I'll second okay so so comments um I've got a a few minor comments um that I could go or do anybody else have any that they'd like to go with first okay oh you run that I'll you run okay all right let me just start off that okay so on the first page um I'm sorry on page 11 there was a number numbering sequence and that was my fault so I apologize everybody for that as so we just correct that um on the very end uh we need to have a signature block um and I think that's all I had on that one does anybody else have any that they'd like to to bring up yeah I'd like to uh I'd like to have one addition made yep uh on page three under the Town Council update that I gave uh where it mentions that a new mayor was appointed I would just like to have Neil Clark's name added to that uh NE l c r k okay does anybody anybody else have any comments okay so do we need another motion to approve it with the changes the moving party uh needs to say they accept the changes and the second party see needs to say that and then roll call all right so I'll move for those changes okay second okay great thanks Justin caneles yes Bernie rad yes Christine Dunbar yes sorry Vice chairman Bill enr yes chairman Ronde yes Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes Nicholas pompilio yes celest Luciana yes okay fantastic the January 7th uh January 17th minutes are approved uh the second set of minutes is dated February 7th 2024 would anybody like to make a motion to approve those minutes I'll make a motion I'll second okay okay for com comments um I've got a few here and and again these are types and and I will take the responsibility for these Tyles um I I think just to keep it clear we need to add some page numbering um the seventh was it where was it uh page four two three four oh here is uh in the middle of the uh page there's a paragraph there in the middle of that it starts with Ernie reat said it it should read in the middle the proposed standard would would not coexist well in in the more commercial areas instead of a commercial area so if I get that change um and again I think we talked in this needs a sign block as well so those are my changes does anybody else have any changes that they'd like to see I have two changes okay i' like to propose both minor Corrections first one is on page one number three line number five I believe it is uh six sorry line number six in the middle it talks about uh actually I was explaining further dot dot dot and it talks about um the inclusion of other parties in the process for the open space work and instead of Highlands Council it actually should say Land Conservancy of New Jersey that would be the organization that's okay running it and reaching out and having open dialogue thank you any others yep uh page two number six in the copy I had that the entire commentary under number six I believe actually belongs under number four it's about the Highlands Regional master plan Amendment meetings I think that that blur belongs you just want to move that up top and combine it with four yeah I think so we'll have five items and combine four and six uh no no I think we still have the six items but I think the commentary move up yeah the description or the so six becomes five and five becomes six uh no no no I think the uh yeah so just the the part that starts with Chris Dunbar right up here yeah that this whole write up right belongs under number four under four yeah six and I believe six so so six goes away and so uh six dayss but just the title stays oh okay now I see okay yeah there was no do you do you understand what you saying there yes I do okay great okay okay terrific anything else nope that's it okay I'll move that we uh go forward with those changes okay a second great call please Justin canel yes bery Road yes Christine Dunbar yes Vice chairman Bill en R yes chairman Ronde yes Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes Nicholas pompilio yes Janette Burke yes sles Luciano yes okay great and then the last set of minutes is from our March uh 6th meeting um May any would anyone like to make a motion to approve these make a motion I'll second okay okay comments um the only comment I had on this one again is I think it needs a uh signature block anybody else have any other comments okay see none want we um do do a roll call or do we I guess we need to or whoever moved it in second and should confirm that they accept those CH that change y I move we accept those changes a second okay roll call please Justin Canal yes Bernie rad yes Christine Dunbar yes chairman Ronde yes Nicholas pompilio yes Janette Burke yes Celeste Luciano yes fantastic we have three sets of minutes tonight congratulations everybody okay uh moving to the next item on the agenda is our correspondence uh we have one item um but before we get into the item again I just want to to talk about this section A little bit too you know when when I look at decisions that are made on this board I like make sure we're all in agreement so one of the things that we're doing a little different here is that um in the past we used to list um residential type information such as if someone's getting a septic repair or or not uh my feeling is this board doesn't deal with residential uses and I think we're trying to streamline this meeting to get to the point that we're all getting out a decent hour so um my recommendation is is that we not include those any longer going forward um if anybody have any any objection to that you know certainly you know please speak up if you don't mind if I could just clarify that wasn't necessarily just for septics it was njde information that comes through agre so it wasn't for a septic permit it was for anything that had to go through njd for septic but related to residential that is correct use but related to residential yeah and and this board really we look at more the commercial uses rather than the residential so um just one less thing that we're looking at and you know need to talk about is it was was the thought process where would that go Dr what's that where where will that be handled um you I mean typically I'm guessing that that within the town we typically don't handle it we would just kind of it was on our list but if we don't approve anything like that we don't discuss anything like that it was just on the list so I just figured just again just to try help stream line this meeting it it did didn't make sense to me personally so okay so if no one has any objections we'll just go forward and we will uh we will no longer include those okay so that's correspondence okay so moving on to the next item on the agenda uh ask the question about correspondance yeah so um I'm not sure if anyone has the answer to this um perhaps our professionals might but does anybody know what this company does and what this permit is allowing and if we we or any other party does any due diligence on this recycling approval recycling I think is what they do it looks like they were getting some type of a renewal of a of a permit yeah L like certain types of machine of a recycling per and again it's it's not the kind of thing that we deal with here um know I I I would even question do we include these kind of things these kind of things but because it was it was a uh it was a um have to do with the business I figured let's leave it on again it's for informational purposes only for the public case anybody wants to to to uh investigate it my question is is there any action if this is related to a zoning issue or if this change has any bearing on land use is there some action or some intention we might want to give to it at some point maybe it's not this exact one but no there's nothing the board does on this it's a confirmation by the applicant to the DP of their uh renewal of their General approval of a re recycling facility for reliable Wood Products um they've been there for many years and they're continuing it's on U House's Corner Road I think yeah yeah and if you drive by you probably have seen um behind uh to the right of um renell pavers uh significant uh recycling facilities uh something called a murf municipal use recycling facility and then near or in front of that is this reliable wood products and they recycles I believe trees and tree stumps and uh I don't I don't really know you know that's not our job so yeah it was it was it's been in existence for many years generally speaking DP preempts the field of recycling and of Solid Waste Management so I guess we can safely assume that if anything changes over the years with their operations that would create a concern the D through this permitting process should pick up on that I'm just thinking I'm not sure I'm satisfied that the township would be satisfied I don't know but the D has to be satisfied and they regulate recyclers and they perhaps inspect them and there are series of significant sets of regulations of recyclers and of solid waste management facilities and so they that's their jurisdiction the dp's jurisdiction okay any questions good have I have a quick question so if if this wasn't directly cc to us and and um and it's not something that's within our purview so why why does generally get shared with us I I I agree I mean because because to your point obviously if if there's nothing actionable you know we it shouldn't it shouldn't be shared with us but if something is shared with us um I I unfortunately think that we have we have to disclose it because it's been shared with us you know what I mean even if it's just it's not an action item it's not something we have to deal with you and the question is who's it who's it shared with this I don't believe came to the planning board oh okay so this wasn't this wasn't something that was that should have directly come to us okay anything njd related comes from Township clerk's office it comes to my attention as the department head for Planning and Zoning so it's really just an FYI for informational purposes that's all okay so do I mean at that at that stage once it comes to us do we then have have a responsibility to disclose that we received it okay not to my knowledge correct Tom just want to make sure that that we're following yeah there no I there's nothing about responsibility here it's really just like cor Dory said U the clerk's office gets these notices they regularly send them to the bling board secretary so she put it on your agenda so okay thank you so let me let me take that a step further if I could so you again this whole correspondence area um hasn't always been there and my my thoughts are if it's something that the planning board is not actionable for and I think this is where you may have been going do we even want to include it right that that was the question if and if we have no responsibility to have due diligence I absolutely agree right so does anybody would anybody else disagree with that I agree with with it I'm not sure um I don't know if it necessarily be needs to be a talking point on the agenda but as an FYI for us to receive it a distribution so we're aware what's happening in town different properties different zones um things that might you know njd things are are usually on the more sensitive side uh I would still like to be made aware of this whether or not we have to discuss it during the meeting maybe that's different topic I would agree with Dean on that okay so so so kind of the where we ended up where we landed in the discussion we're having up to this point was if it was residential we weren't going to include it anymore anything to do with commercial we'd keep it on there and and so why don't we continue to do that and we can kind of talk about one at a time and in the future and and determine is this the kind of thing we want to continue doing or or just make notification outside of this meeting just you know email copies to everybody in the board so okay and and Ron means single family residential Dory not not multif family or correct similar okay thank you okay okay great thank you everybody uh so let's move into the public hearing portion of the agenda so tonight we've got uh planning board application 708 plus Holdings LLC 53 a Sparta Avenue block 5019 Lot 23 site plan this is being carried from the February 21st agenda so gentlemen welcome back and uh please come forward thank you Mr chairman members of the board for the record on of thec Sir can you use the microphone please sure it's on okay uh let me tell you where where we were before and what we've done since then uh we were last before the board on January 17th uh you heard testimony by Robert McNerney and Kalisto Burton our civil engineer at that meeting various questions were raised and we submitted additional documentation to the board as follows we have a revised site plan uh dated February 8th 2024 which uh it was to be responsive to the comments that we received uh the technical comments and those from the board we also submitted correspondence from Mr Burton which is dated February 7th 2024 uh which outlines what revisions were in fact made uh we also provided a traffic impact study which was updated again from Burton engineering which was dated February 13 2024 and we have provided an updated rendering for the facade of the building uh lerio architecture which is dated March 4th 2024 uh lerio uh work with uh Al dooi on that so tonight to testify we have Mr McNerney Mr Burton and Mr DOI if necessary in addition there were a couple questions that were asked and I figured I would hit them headon one was about the school bus stop uh we made inquiry to the board of ed uh Mr McNerney did that directly uh and we were advised that there is currently a bus stop that goes into the shopping center at 55 Sparta and we could make arrangements that the any school children would easily be able to walk there typically what uh was observed was that the bus parks in that parking lot and parents would drive children over bus the other issue that came up we received uh certain reports from burrow professionals which I'll identify in a moment but one was from the police traffic department about the driveway configuration Mr Journey will testify that this site was not a pristine site and the uses that existed for a long time those the driveway configuration in terms of the Burger King and the adjoining shopping center exist through legal instruments the easement rights that they have which cannot be altered and that configuration has existed since the property was previously used as a hotel so what we received from the burrow were was a memo from the division of Health that was February 9 two traffic Bureau letters February 2nd February 9 an updated Memo from Mr Simmons February 16th a memo from the fire prevention Bureau February 14th the department of utilities dated February 15th and a supplemental review from Harbor Consultants also dated February 15 so I think to bring the board back to where we were I was going to request that I recall Mr McNerney first unless there are any questions of me so Bob okay mcy you understand that you are still under oath I do I'll give you the mic and I'll try to speak loud uh excuse me I'm sorry I just excuse me I defer to Mr Collins I have a question that goes to the Juris of the board and the adequacy of the notice I'm happy to let the applicant proceed and reserve my comments on jurisdiction to the public comment period or I'm happy to make my jurisdictional uh objection now at the board's pleasure um you should make it now U you're you're objecting to the notice so you should make it now okay and the applicant will have an um opportunity to respond my name is an Dash um I'm an attorney licensed in the state of New Jersey I reside in Sparta as the um board's attorney and the applicant attorney well know pursuant to the municipal land use law section 11 and 12 that uh notice is uh the notice requirement under the statute is jurisdictional in nature if the notice is defective effect effect uh it affects the jurisdiction of the board and any action taken by the board in such case is a mity that's the Northgate condo versus the planning board New Jersey Supreme Court 2013 the uh requirement of the notice under the statute under the cases is to provide uh and inform the public of the nature of the application in such a common sense manner such as the ordinary lay person could intelligently determine whether or not to object or to seek further clarification now it is not essential that an applicant notice each and every variance and the custom practice has been to have a catchall notice provision that indicates that if any other variances are required the applicant will duly make that application to the board in this case the notice does provide such a uh catchall provision however what the notice does not provide in my opinion and for the board's consideration respectfully is a appreciable and noticeable variance in my opinion which goes to the impervious coverage so if you look at the notice that was provided and is on record with the planning board it makes no reference to any variances other than the catchall provision however when we review this application in connection with Sparta's Township's ordinances and focusing strictly on the impervious coverage which is a significant aspect of any land use matter and which is a matter of concern to the public if there is such a variance such a variance should be explicitly stated in the notice I think we can agree that there's not and I'm I I um submit respectfully that there's going to be disagreement as to whether or not such a variance is required my position is that under the township ordinance section 18 - 8.5 L1 B2 subset 2 we are in the TCC Zone the TCC Zone permits impervious coverage of a maximum of 40% the applicant uh is presenting a development that has 60 approximately 60 or slightly over 60% impervious coverage however if we read the language of the ordinance okay um it provides and I quote maximum impervious curvage for four story buildings shall be 80% with the condition that 15% of the total units in any four-story building shall be four sale units that are voluntarily offered as part of the application to a land use board so I'm starting with the premise that the ordinance TCC Zone permits 40% impervious coverage the applicant has proposed 60% in order for an applicant in the TCC Zone who isn't taking advantage who is availing themselves of the incentives the applicant must provide for for sale units the legal notice that's been provided indicates a total of six sale uh rental units and no four sale units so either the applicant requires an impervious carage variance for which it has not noticed or it requires to give notice that four of its units or 15% of 40 are for sale units Point number one point number two the application notice the legal notice also makes reference to a resolution okay dated um dated December 16 2020 in which the applicant indicates that this uh that there was a quote 70 unit apartment multi-building uh previously approved by the planning board at the property my objection with respect to that aspect of this notice the legal notice is that it is misleading in so far as that resolution was approved without the knowledge of either I shouldn't say without the knowledge without the disclosure of the fact that there was a deed restriction on the property that precluded planning board's approval of this application by operation of a deed restriction on record with the county clerk the approval could not proceed by operation of Law and by operation of the deed restriction which restricted the application to a motel use only so to to disclose in this legal notice that there was a prior approval for 70 units suggests to the public that 70 units was allowed but 40 units should be equally allowed because of that deed restriction at the time uh this application the prior application shouldn't be referenced without a hearing without some further deliberation and re noticing as to the appropriate appropriateness of that prior resolution third point there is a list pendant on this property a list pendant puts the public and the planning board and the applicant on notice that there is litigation surrounding this property and anybody private citizen should proceed at their Peril with respect to an application that has a list pendant but when I last checked the Sussex County Clerk's records the list pendant is still of record and without that list pendence being removed of record it creates a legal issue for this board to proceed and at a minimum the board cannot proceed without the notice clarifying why there's the deed restriction on the property whether or not it has been removed I believe it has been removed of record but not at the time that the application was approved in 2020 um so those are my three points um happy to hear the applicants council's rebuttal to that and I just would respectfully reserve a right to respond thank you so Mr Collins if I could just Mr the proper way to proceed here the proper way is the m the applicant's attorney should address the objection okay thank you uh first whatever objection was waved was waved intentionally because Mr Dash was here in December when we started the application anything that he said this evening could have been said at that December hearing he was present for the hearing uh whether he decided to stay or not was his election and he's raising these matters now however to discuss the substance of each particular objection with regard to the jurisdictional issues I don't believe Mr Dash was here in the January meeting we discussed the necessity for a variance and the board determined that it was not required in consultation with its professionals the planner and the attorney at that time we had a disc discussion about that it is the coverage we're providing the requisite number of affordable housing which will be rental units so one was not dependent on the other the deed restriction again irrelevant that deed restriction has been extinguished uh whether it happened before or after the application uh this board does not get into deed restrictions this board gets into land use applications if there was a legal impediment then it's up to the app to deal with it but we're talking about something that has been distinguished it doesn't matter factually this board did Grant an approval for 70 units there's nothing inconsistent or confusing about that it's a fact and that resolution is of record the third aspect of the LI pendants our title search did not reveal Liz pendants we are contract purchasers we did that title search several months ago there is a Liz pendant it will have to be dealt with at the time that title is closed so none of the issues that have been raised would affect the jurisdiction of this board this board determined that it did have jurisdiction at that December hearing thank you and I ommitted one my final argument and so you certainly should feel comfortable in responding to that the uh ordinance also provides with respect to the requirements of notice that as part of this application the de veler this is 18-8 8.5g 18- 8.5g States the developers shall obtain written permission from the township Council endorsing the developers plan for satisfying the affordable housing obligation created by the proposed development which shall be submitted to the township planning board or zoning board at the time the application for development is submitted for review and approval and shall be considered a condition for the application being determined complete and if the applicant is Seeking a waiver of that requirement which I understand it is not because it's not in the public notice then the applicant needs to notice for that waiver or alternatively comply with the requirement and as I understand my review of the record reveals that there's been no waiver for this requirement uh there's been no request for a waiver for this requirement and as such the notice is deficient because it goes to a material aspect of this application and uh to council's point defects unnoticed are not waved uh they can be raised at any time uh I rest on that and and um defer to Mr Collins thank you gentlemen want me to address that sure this application is based upon a zoning ordinance that was created to address affordable housing which was implemented by the township Council uh it specifically provides for affordable housing and it was part of to my knowledge the uh the fair the housing element fair share plan that was created to address affordable housing therefore the township Council has already acted on this I'm I'm not I'm sorry could you just say that again please the township you have a applic you have satisfied 18- 8.5 the township Council acted upon this through ordinance and endorsement of the housing element fair share plan okay that's a question for this board's consider for the board's consideration respectfully as to whether or not in addition to the first three arguments this developer has obtained quote written permission from the township Council endorsing the developer's plan meaning this developer satisfying the affordable housing obligation I don't think there's a lot of room for interpretation on that it's either they have or they have not obtained it and if they have I would like to see a copy of that written permission from the township Council in hand thank you okay thank you Mr Dash so we'll I'll go over where we where we uh the question that's been raised the objection is to notice and notice uh was made on this matter and notice generally speaking is consistent with the municipal Landes law the objections that are more substantive are part of the record that has been raised by Mr Dash and he will be able to present testimony on these objections to the case the case has started and the case uh does not the applicant is not requesting a c variance for coverage um the ordinance does though require and we've checked this with our professional staff Katherine surad and her report points it out that they do have to provide 15% for sale units that is a requirement of the ordinance and it does kick in when you go up to four stories and you have coverage over 40% now this is proposed coverage at 60% and that is allowed up to even higher percent if you actually provide four stories and four I'm sorry 15% uh for sale units uh if you go to three stories you can have you we don't have to do the um 50% for sale units so since they are not requesting the variance there is no need to request the variance in the notice and we're not here to consider a grant of that variance actually we expect that the ordinance will be complied with and Mr dash Can can throughout the hearing address his objections to that if he if they refuse to provide the 15% for sale units um he can address that and so can the applicant um on the substantive issue of a deed restriction the planning board has all planning boards in New Jersey and zoning boards have no jurisdiction whatsoever over real property interests or their meaning so even if there was a deed restriction the zoning board or planning board of a town has no ability to interpret what they mean or to determine what they mean or to change them or to override them they are independent real estate issues independent of zoning but Mr Dash May throughout the course of the hearing on this application address why he contends that something is not feasible or why it is not compliant with some feed restriction um but the board still has to hear the case in spite of litigation Or List pendant apparently there was litigation and there may have been a list pendant apparently it's been withdrawn all of those issues are relevant to a planning board or zoning board because the planning board and Zoning Board of of municipalities have no authority over real property interests but that can be something that Mr Dash argues through in his closing arguments and in his testimony and his Witnesses um the fact that they referred to a resolution of a prior resolution does not really mean anything with respect to uh confusion or adequacy of notice the notice is sufficient for purposes of explaining to the public that there is an application here for 40 Apartments and that that addresses the adequacy of the notice in accordance with the case law um I agree with Mr Dash that they've not requested any waiver and they're not they're not they're not seeking one they're not even asking for a variance for impervious coverage so that's not an issue and uh so my recommendation to the board is that the notice just the Point did you want to address the last point about the township requirement yeah that's for when you are trying to deviate from the requirements of the ordinance for your affordable housing set aside fortunately I respect that you argue you want to argue whatever you want to argue on that I'm satisfied with Mr Dash but on the substance of it they are not seeking to deviate from the affordable housing requirement of 15% oh I'm sorry I wasn't referring to that argument um I was referring to the the requirement in the ordinance that requires them to seek uh a written approval from the township council with respect to their plan for 18- 8.5g that that's really if you're seeking to deviate from it and they are far as I'm concerned they must comply with those set asdes both the affordable housing at 15% of the rental and the for sale at 15% for sale even though it's mostly apartments and Catherine could collaborate on that but basically when you if you try to if a person if an applicant this this is applicant is not generally speaking trying to do that if an applicant tries to deviate from the set aside requirements or do an inloop payment instead of units someone into the ordinance and under similar ordinances other municipalities seek to provide an alternative method of compliance with the affordable housing requirement and if that's what they are proposing then they can seek such an agreement with the governing body here they're not proposing to deviate or seek relief from the mandatory set aside requirement for affordable housing uh so that section does not kick in but if you want to argue no it's okay on the merits of the case when you're doing your case if you want to argue that point you certainly may I recommend that we proceed but Mr Dash will be entitled to present uh cross cross-examine Witnesses and present a case and so will other members of the public so Mr chairman I would recommend that we continue proceeding but if the two attorneys want to argue any final points that might be acceptable no I don't have anything further other than my interpretation is just based on a plan reading and I would just respectfully ask that the board consider that language of the statute that my reading respectfully that it's not necessarily tied to whether or not they comply with the affordable but my reading of that statute the language of 18- 8.5 is that it is independent of whether or not they they uh deviate and it states pretty clearly that they shall have obtained written permission from the township Council but I respect dis I I respect a disagreement on that but I believe strongly that um this board should please just focus on that thank you Mr chairman do you do you mind if I just give a clarification on the reading of the ordinance the section under 18- 8.5g is in the section is entitled alternative methods of compliance um and it starts saying except for major subdivision or site plan approvals involving four more units or 10,000 ft of commercial space pursuant to the optional incentives authorized in section above so even if the reading was that the for an alternative this it's except for site plan approvals involving for more units so it's saying particular developments outside of the sub four more units can utilize this section this so this project would not be included under that but as Mr Collins was explaining there are other ways to create affordable units that the coorgs the the Council on affordable housing round two regs and round one regs allow for some municipalities don't they only want to create inclusionary housing units that are creditworthy but there are options in some some municipalities and then this ordinance entertains that you can purchase an existing market rate unit and convert it to a deed restricted age uh affordable offsite offsite from the development that's being proposed that you can purchase um you can participate in the gut rehab program through the affordable housing program that you can pay in lie of of it but that's why you need Town Council approval to do so because the Town Council could potentially be in trouble with its compliance with other portions of its COA obligation through its housing element and so I think the the point of this ordinance the purpose and intent which is usually what you're looking for when you're reading through an ordinance is to is that the council had to approve that so the board isn't doing it without you know um collaboration with the council to to know what the implications might be to allow that but I think regardless the the beginning Clause of this section doesn't even apply to this application for one um and so you know I I disagree a little bit with Mr Dash I I do agree with Mr Collins that this is a specific section that isn't applicable here but in deference to Mr Dash and the applicant's attorney although these are not defects in notice they may be arguments in the case that Mr Dash wants to continue to make and that the applicant needs to perhaps or may may want to address so but the case should continue and we should proceed with the next witness okay so I guess we need to to make a ruling here you know and so first of all let me let me thank everybody for um for your your perspectives um I I I think you know we've heard the arguments um this is basically a legal question um that in my mind in terms of what's what's the legal requirements to to proceed and to make proper notices and and and those type of issues so B on on what I'm heing I I'm going to um I I I suggest that we we follow the advice of our our board attorney Mr Collins and and that we continue to proceed and hear the case so uh Mr McNerney you're still under Ro do you understand that yes I do and please state your name and address Robert McNerney MC NE R NE Mr mcney you testified before this cour on January 17 correct yes I did and uh you were present for the entire hearing after you finished your testimony that's correct and I think just so that the board is reoriented you did provide a history of what existed on this property I did okay uh could you briefly uh repeat what was on the property and what's being proposed yeah yes based upon a review of Municipal records there was a hotel dating back to 1964 that was previously on this site uh along with amenities a swimming pool from what I understand from a review of the records that in 1987 it was converted to an assisted living facility which subsequently had a fire and burned and then the improvements were demoed currently what exists at the property today are the foots and foundations for these structures along with the swimming pool the development plan is to remove all the footings and Foundations in a swimming pool to clear it down to Virgin soil all right thank you and also uh questions came up about you know school children at the uh facility if that actually occurs and you did Research into uh where a school bus would stop to pick up those children correct yes when we heard the concern from the board regarding this I did reach out to the bard of Ed who who uh then directed me to the uh school bus operator and I met that person and uh asked if in the event that this project produces School AG children where would they uh catch the school bus and in reply through an email they said at 55 Sparta Avenue which is right at the end of our driveway and in the morning the bus pulls into the parking lot cars come in kids get unloaded into the bus so there's a designated spot or ready for a school bus stop and in addition Mr McNerney uh you commissioned the revised uh rendering for the facade of building yes in reviewing the uh the plan the the planner uh comments number one and and going back to the architectural section of the uh Zone we did uh ride the town to see the different type of architecture and to try to place it in sync with what's been developed through the years and I have a concept plan I think everybody got a copy a smaller version now M excuse me Mr chairman Mr Colin this was submitted as part of the application I don't know if you want to mark that as another exhibit yeah what don't do we have any previously numbered A1 mark from which was the amenity package so this will be A2 and colored rendering of elevation with let's put today's date on it because there had been a prior one bid rendering of architectural elevation and I think you can see from what's up on the easel here that it's a drastic revision to the plan that we originally submitted a lot of Gables Peaks uh windows with uh round tops sorry we had this problem last time too and uh a railing with a uh Mr MC if I know it's hard but if you push that back a little bit and stand on the left side of it the side you'll be blocking Katherine a little bit but you'll be able to show the public what you're what you're referring to by pointing if the if the easel doesn't [Laughter] collapse you can name it you you can aim it a little bit towards the public cuz we we have we have copies that's good that's better so as you can see here four stories in height we've had archways over the balconies archways over the main entrance created a a more like mohawk look shall I call it and I think this fits in better than the other plan with what was presented in the uh in the planning report you have m i did Mr chowski could you speak into the microphone over there please thank you and you had uh Mr DOI the project architect work with Mr Jiro another architect to uh come up with that rendering correct yes I did and Mr DOI can certainly testify further as to that render yes he can okay Mr chairman I have no further questions for Mr McNerney okay so um to the board members and the professionals um we could ask anyone ask questions we ask them now or we could prob we could hear Mr MC's testimony I believe Mr M I'm sorry um Mr Burton would be next correct and then and then ask questions of the two of them in one one at one time is I'd recommend we we do the latter just in the interest of uh of time tonight okay all right thank you Mr chairman uh Kalisto Mr Burton do you understand that you are still under oath yes I do and please state your name and address and spell your last name I'll spell both it's Kalisto Burton c a l i s o Burton e e o r t my office is at 66 Glenn Avenue in Glenrock New Jersey thank you Mr Burton so Mr Burton you testified before this board on January 17th correct that's correct and after that date you made certain revisions to your site plan yes I took notes while we discussed the application and uh revised the plans accordingly okay and you also submitted those revised plans in a letter describing the revisions to the board correct correct why don't you tell the board what you did yes um there was a question about the sequence of construction a minor note but we detailed that and put the staging areas from board members had concerns about that that's on sheet 2.1 our demolition plan um then it was brought to our attention that because uh the curb was only four feet off of the um North northeasterly property line that we had a variance so we shifted the entire site a foot to avoid the variance so now we have the five- foot buffer I hope I got it right but that's what we did um that would be the um looking I'm I've got sheet C 2.2 un unchanged so we don't have to mark it as an exhibit but we took the entire parking lot and slid it one foot closer to Sparta Avenue um we there was a comment about uh parking or Landscaping within the parking lot um what we did was we just relocated a couple of parking spaces to create uh landscaped islands in the parking lot we took two spaces out of the middle of the property and moved them to the uh lower left corner when you're looking at the plan okay then we went into discussion about the amenity space and uh I look at this as no good deed goes unpunished you know our our client we we had you knew I I was the engineer on the prior plan and we developed a nice amenity space and so our client wanted to reuse that onto this plan and in looking at it we we put it Opposite the building I mean on the parking lot opposite the building so farthest away from the site we did that for two reasons one our client didn't really want a lot of noise by the building and two it fit better over there rather than trying to put it someplace else so in in discussions we we again our clients I guess I got to get a new battery we we did add uh a bench by the front door of the building but remember there's units on either side of the front door it's not like we have a large Lobby and amenity area down on the ground floor and then on the lower left corner of the building and looking at the plan we added another sitting area uh for a couple of benches over there so that's the change we made we'll talk about the amenity space more I'm sure as we go through the through the uh application um we we are aware that there is low pressure in the area so so on the plans we show a holding tank we put a 12,000g underground tank when the mechanical engineers go and actually design the mechanical system they will develop the uh actual details for the U uh pumping system uh I imagine well and I don't know I think it was in uh the pillow review letter whether the pumps will be at the tank uh they could be submersible pumps at the tank so you don't really even see them or they'll be in the building it'll be some combination and um but the mechanical engineers will will do that um and during that stage um now um we we discussed the woods uh around the property and I mentioned some of the vegetation there is very old it may have been planted when there was a hotel there but that was 30 40 50 years ago and and a lot of it um is very mature so we uh added Landscaping uh on the plan to say to fit within the uh the the current wooded area because there'll be holes there may be something that's really dead that we should take out so we added additional Landscaping to fill in uh in the woods and it's it's easier to do it in the field rather than us to do it on a plan now okay um there are uh there were no lights on the building and there was a discussion about whether there'd be any up lights and I said no the only lights will be down lights so now our plan does depict lights that shine down and they're really at the doors of the building and they illuminate the sidewalks so they really don't add any appreciable lighting to the site but they provide safety lighting where required then um again in this discussion about school children and how do we get down to the street and where do they get picked up I uh elected to uh send our surveyors back out to the property and do a better survey of um the driveway where it comes to Sparta Avenue and that's a new drawing 2.8 now Tom that was part of the submission did you want to mark that or not not unless you got a colored rendering or something or are you gonna mark it so yes I am gon to mark it because we cleaned it up a little bit we took the um topog the topography off that'll be A3 and just to identify what it is in its title block or I called it um exhibit one a detailed driveway plan exhibit thank you all right um although we we now know that there is a bus stop on the adjoining property but first let me explain um so exhibit A3 our driveway comes down the center of the plan and that's the driveway that enters the site the Burger King is to the left um and the uh small retail building is is I'm sorry the Burger King is to the right uh it's two retail buildings are to the left um this also shows the driveways there's uh two two-way driveways going to the north behind the retail buildings and that driveway connects both the adjoining retail buildings and there's also a a driveway an exit driveway from the Burger King that's towards the rear and towards the front there's the exit driveway from the Burger King drive-thru that comes out onto our driveway so I wanted to I I also wanted to do a survey because the survey we were working from wasn't done by our office and really didn't detail along the side of that retail building because we wanted to fit a sidewalk in so we had to make some adjustments and make sure we could fit a sidewalk in so we show a 4ot sidewalk coming down the entire driveway from the top of the hill and we bring it right to Sparta Avenue now the driveways in this section of Sparta Avenue are very close if you were to get a new doot permit they wouldn't be this close but that's the way they are they've been here for a very long time so the curb uh between our driveway and when I say our driveway the subject driveway and the retail building um on the north side of the driveway doesn't go all the way out to the street curb it's cut back because there's no room to go all the way out for for adequate uh passage in and out of the two driveways so what happens is when you get to the end of it there's a crosswalk now at one point the crosswalk was paved I'm painted I'm sorry it has um uh scents worn off so we have two driveways right next to each other and sidewalks on either side of those two driveways and a crosswalk that goes through so it's Our intention to um we're obviously we're going to to repave the driveway and out to Sparta Avenue clean up um the crosswalk paint in a new crosswalk put in a Stop Bar put in a stop sign so that that intersection is a little bit more uh conforming now then we get into the discussion of the the children so what we've observed because we did do a a a subsequent traffic study uh after Mr McNerney did his his research that the bus actually does pull in to the shopping center right next door to us and park between the two driveways and we found that at the time the day the morning we did the study there were five cars there with children and the kids got out of the car into the bus the bus left the cars left so I imagine that if we have um schoolage children and CH and the ant the statistics say we will that the same situation would happen here the one thing though because we have these driveways in the back is that someone from the residential building on top of the hill could come in drive behind the retail buildings Park and I know there was a question about speed you you can't drive fast back there the driveway is maybe 12T wide very sharp this is uh it's traffic Comming built into the design of the the site so they would come in park in the parking lot wait for the bus or the bus is there already it seems like this might be the first stop and then uh the kids could leave and then our residents would be able to go back through between the buildings and back up uh the driveway without ever entering Sparta Avenue so that actually turns out to be a good thing so they don't have to go on and off Sparta Avenue uh in addition I believe we heard some comments from some of the board members in particular Miss Dunbar regarding the Eis report did you do any further research in thank you did you uh do any further research no I'll hand this to you did you do any further research uh regarding uh the environmental impact statement based upon comments that were made at the last meeting uh yes um I did not amend the report and and probably I should have but I was asked to look at the conservation Blue Book um I mean the conservation blueprint and the highlands Council maps The Highlands Council Maps didn't really provide a lot but um the conservation blueprint was useful and I've used it since so thank you for the reference um we already know that the site's not in the highlands uh preservation area but the highlands planning area um and I did not notice any find through that research that there any restrictions on the site um one thing it did the the site did mention is that the on-site wooded area uh provided a medium high water quality area for aquafer recharge and that's good because as one of our goals was not to increase the impervious and d and and and intrude into those woods and it's sandy soil so it makes makes sense that that would be a recharge area so we did find that area and and maybe I should have updated the e but that's the extent of what I found so just so I'm clear Mr Burton by maintaining the impervious coverage from what you found reviewing these sites that it won't have an effect on that water quality area am I correct um that's correct in addition um part of our drainage design is to provide recharge after our storm water goes through a water treatment unit we will be recharging so actually we will be improving the recharge for the area for this property by again recharging the the building roof and the parking lot and also Mr Burton you provided an updated traffic impact study for this project yes all right uh could you briefly uh go over that study with the board what your findings and conclusions were but also advise what you actually did to complete this study uh yes our office uh performed traffic counts manual counts out there um on Wednesday February 7th and Thursday February 8th the first uh count was done in the evening uh during the peak hour so between 4: and 6 the second one was done in the morning between 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. um the morning peak hour was found to be between 8 and 9 UM and at that time the traffic on Sparta Avenue was about the same in both directions about 700 I'm sorry 470 480 cars each way um in traffic studies and I'm sure you've heard this but usually you look for a peak hour rather than doing a 4H hour period they came up with an hour period so that that's the traffic that was moving up and down um the highway um in the evening the southbound Direction was heavier than the Northbound by over 130 cars so we had and I'm rounding off the numbers um 550 heading north and 680 Vehicles heading south that peak hour occurred between 4:45 and 5:45 p.m. now um during our counts no traffic entered the site driveway but traffic did exit the site driveway so we had seven cars exiting in the morning and 33 exiting in the evening that's again during that peak hour and most of those 33 cars were from the Burger King drive-thru and as the cars from the Burger King exited the site it was an even split between cars turning right and cars turning left that's important because when we do our trip generation and distribution um the next was to use the Institute transport Engineers uh trip generation manual to determine the traffic generated by this 40 unit development and for the peak hour traffic it it's um 14 trips in the morning hour that's a trip is is in and out so it's mostly out so 11 out three in and in the PM most people are returning so we have 10 in and six out or 16 trips now that's that's common for a residential because we we're saying a peak hour people leaving between 8 and 9 some people leave at 7:30 some people leave at 6:30 some people leave at 9:15 some people don't leave to go to work so anyway so that's how we came up with the the people um when we add then we then what we've done is we' added that traffic to the existing traffic on the street and I'll just uh uh in the driveway so again there's no traffic entering the driveway now so the traffic generated by this building will be the traffic that enters so we're having um 3 in in the morning and 10 in in the evening evening right so that's new new turns on the on the road coming in and if we have 10 vehicles coming in in an hour that's one every six minutes and half of them are coming from the south and half of them are coming from the north so that's one every 12 minutes so when you ask me the question what's the queue on um Sparta Avenue because of cars turning in it's not really much of a queue because there's less traffic turning into here than turning into the Burger King or some of the other re uh ret uh places and when we do our actual um the programs we use to do the traffic analysis actually show no q but obviously there's going to be a que it's going to be there it depends on the the traffic lights because we have a traffic light on Maine and a traffic light um further north just at just a couple hundred yards away uh that will meter the flow of traffic across the site as a matter of fact um we found that cars exiting from the Burger King um they may be they may get to the stop at the at the curb look both ways and go which happens a lot or sometimes they'll have to wait as much as 30 seconds again depending on the traffic flow and that's the condition there we anticipate future development so what we do is we come up with a build year a couple years from now uh and increase traffic because there's there's generally increase in traffic each year except for when we have a pandemic or a major Financial uh recession anyway so we we've added that traffic together um so the combined traffic uh leaving the driveway would be 18 in the morning and 39 vehicles in the evening peak hour and as I mentioned three coming in in the morning and 10 coming in in the evening um then what we do is a level of service analysis and because there's so few Vehicles really coming in there's no change in the level of service on um Sparta Avenue it's it's negligible the change just a couple follow-up questions is that basically uh what you found in your trip generation would be considered minor using NJ do standards correct um yes we will have to go to the NJ doot for the changes we're doing uh in the driveway it's occupancy permit and normally we would get if we weren't doing that or tying our drainage into it we would get a waiver the trick the increase in traffic on the driveway is less than 100 trips that's the dot threshold to be whether whether or not a permit is needed we're going to go for a permit because we're going to be making some physical improvements and connecting the drainage to the site and based upon what you found uh at the site would there would there be sufficient warrants that would Merit a traffic light uh no there would not uh because the state not only the state Nationwide they don't want to put in traffic lights where traffic lights aren't they use the word warranted so there's a list of warrants that determine whether a traffic light is Justified at a site and we're far from that I mean we need several hundred cars each way on the main road and then for several hours over a 100 cars coming out of our driveway and we don't have that so we would not warrant a traffic light did you also uh look at the existing sidewalks and existing pedestrian Crossings on spot Avenue uh located close to this site um yes we did as I mentioned that's why we prepared the uh plan um there are crosswalks and handicap ramps on either side of the driveway so that's in good condition we didn't think we needed to continue offsite to make improvements but we did feel that we needed to do the crosswalk and we stripe the crosswalk this way there's several ways of doing crosswalks because that's how we found it striped elsewhere but if if your engineer wants to have a different there's there's different designs for crosswalks but we matched what was in the area so what you're talking about now though is just the proposed restriping of the crosswalk of your driveway right correct it C crosses our driveway and it goes onto the property just north of us but it's in the right away okay it's in the right away because the sidewalks in the RightWay correct right now is there maybe you're going to go to the I was going to say what about any of the crosswalks on Sparta Avenue oh oh Crossing Sparta Avenue correct oh no we Louis Lane there did you see the one at LS Lane it's uh Lo it's fading but there is one and I wondered do you think it doesn't have any kind of pedestrian light would warrants exist for it's a it's a mid block Crossing pedestrian Crossing which is fairly unusual but it's existed for years mhm are there sufficient warrants for that to be to obtain a pedestrian light or a some sort of a warning system um what has been done are U um lights uh the crosswalk sign that would flash so when someone wants to cross the street they could push the button uh again it's just a crosswalk it's not a it's not a uh a traffic light because another consideration for traffic lights is the proximity to other traffic lights and I don't think I think we're we're as close as you can get with traffic lights um that might be something that could be installed there uh it would need do approval because it is in the dot right away the type that that warns of a crosswalk and blinks if a person would pushes a button and would like to cross yes we do that in places like Jersey City all the time and you think maybe the warrants would exist for that because of its location or what do you I don't know if there's a warrant for that but if the mid block Crossing is permitted then I think it must be because I'm thinking it's a state highway so and I don't think we painted it so so I don't know I just worked on well anyway on a county road where there was a mid block Crossing and the county says what's that doing here I say well it's been there for 20 years so they they may us take it out anyway um if the crossing is is uh and it's got to be legit because it's there and it has been painted um then I don't see a problem at having the crosswalk sign put in okay uh based upon that Kalisto uh would the type of sign differ depending on what do would permit would it just be a sign or could this be a flashing sign or does that need any specific permission um I any sign needs permission um and and I I have not done this on a DOT road so I don't know but I don't see why it wouldn't be it's it's again the standard crosswalk sign where you see two stick figures crossing a crosswalk and then it's just a matter of The Pedestrian can hit the button and alerts people um that people are crossing now oh uh the rules are on County and town roads that when someone the the the pedestrians have the right away I don't know if that's the case on a state road but this is not a limited access highway it's a local street so that would be something we could pursue with the dot now in addition Mr Burton uh there was a revised report received from Mr Simmons I believe that was Turn the Page maybe I could find it uh February 16th did you have an opportunity to review that report uh yes I did and you do you have any comments on that report no I I I don't think so um I can just hit a couple of highlights um I'm going to page two under Section 3A I asked about the maintenance responsibility for the drive I testified last time that the applicant and will be responsible for that driveway it's part of the project now to repave it um on B we talked about the uh rights to the adjoining property owners for access to the um driveway um I guess lot two is where the proposed Wawa is I think I'm on I'm on D of Page Three um and we're aware of it but we we're unable to find out any information um oh item F the chaining fence in my understanding belongs to the uh Cemetery because it's the same fence that wraps around the cemetery property so I would assume it's their fence and it's in pretty good shape um uh when we get to item four uh A and B are just notes of what's on the plan C says there is no room for vehicles to park on our driveway again this is about schoolage children I don't know that I put on the plan but there is no parking and there should be no parking so if we want we can add no parking signs along that driveway um but I think we've addressed how school children will will be uh dealt with or accommodated not dealt with accommodated all right um the rest is about the traffic study parking spaces okay so number five um a is an comment B is the waiver we talked about this four loading spaces are required one space is provided and I I mentioned that you know once the apartment building is full turnovers every couple of years and it would be a it would be a waste of asphalt to have more than one loading space uh now uh C requires a four oh okay that's right a 4ot setback for the parking to the sidewalks and I mentioned last time that um when the cars are parking up against the sidewalk we'd rather they don't walk through the grass to get to the sidewalk and we brought the sidewalk right to the parking spaces that's the sidewalk in front of the building um 6B do you make the sidewalks a little wider there um where you where the car would I guess the car the car is going in over the sidewalk in the curb for couple feet or something like that yeah 18 inches or so but the residential site Improvement standards uh specify a six foot sidewalk we show a six foot sidewalk if you'd like us to make it a little bit no that's fine that's what I wonder do do you have the six six feet where you have car overhang you have the six feet where there a potential car overhang you have the six feet um yes yes whenever you're whenever the parking is perpendicular to the curb or or right and uh we would have a six foot sidewalk okay um while we're on sidewalks could you just describe how could a person walk from spart Avenue all the way up to the parking lot and then to the building somehow on on a sidewalk and can you just show where that how that occurs one of the ordinance requirements but take us take us from Sparta Avenue up sure so we we we have the the new crosswalk on Sparta Avenue the sidewalk is on the north side of the driveway or as you're walking in the driveway it's on the left side it follows the driveway all the way up to the end where we get to the parking lot here what we've done is we've crossed the driveway with a crosswalk with a crosswalk okay and a stop sign too like well we we have pedestrian crossing signs on either side okay and then you so you go on a crosswalk and then on the other side this would be on the well the north easterly side I guess if North is up it's on the easterly side of that parking lot the sidewalk goes all the way up to the building and then across the front of the building okay thanks and there's a sidewalk uh to the front door and one to each side door um I in in 6B it says a buffer has not been provided uh it's a buffer of at least 5 feet in width is required um that's oh it that was the one that's a one I thought I was trying to eliminate by the buffer along that five buffer geometrically was provided uh but what this refers to in that buffer area some Landscaping in that area oh yes I see we have lawn there we could actually add some shrubs through there we'll add shrubs okay I don't think there's anything else I need to comment on unless Mr Simmons thinks so the only item I'd like you to elaborate on a little bit further if you could just going back to to the shopping center to the north side where the school bus pulls in question for you uh is there a written agreement with the owner of the shopping center that allows that and as far as the parents driving the children down and going counterclockwise around the back of the building is is there an agreement that allows that or it's just a gentleman's agreement or how does that work I don't believe Mr Burton can answer that uh I have the email records and the the photographs uh from the school district indicating that that's where the school bus stops and that was from the Transportation supervisor June macko of the Board of Ed she did not indicate whether there was any agreement in place or not just identified that's where the school bus stop is all right she didn't necessarily I'm playing Devil's Advocate just a minute she didn't necessarily say that the parents coming down from the apartment complex have the right to go behind the building though did she she she she didn't get into that detail she only identified where the where the crosswalk not the crosswalk where the school bus stops understood we do have photographs of that and we just wanted to confirm it uh and Mr Burton's firm did observe what occurs understood um and and if for some reason our residents can't use the driveway in the back they'll go out to Sparta Avenue pull in I just you know um one of the principles of traffic engineering is to stay on the Lesser order roads and so that's why I brought that up no understood and appreciate it I guess my concern again just playing Devil's Advocate if the ownership of the shopping center should change sometime in the future and some future shopping center owner did not want to allow that then it might change the configuration of what was described can I just uh while we're on the bus stop uh would you be willing to authorize the Board of Ed and the bus company or bus provider to enter upon the driveway and come up and turn around and pick up students at the front door of the building and if you needed to uh authorize a title 39 ordinance for entry and for police enforcement to the answer to that is yes if the Board of Ed would want to do that they ID they would let you that they have they've identified this as an appropriate location as it's utilized today right okay [Music] thanks that yeah okay and then there was also a um supplemental uh letter from Harbor Consultants um the uh site plan review it asked about colorized um Elations I well anything that yes yes site plan issues so um there is a a question about environmental viewsheds environmental and and viewshed standards so um we discussed this a little bit last time and um I mentioned that from Sparta Avenue looking up at this drive where you're not going to see the site but from farther away say at the intersection of Sparta Avenue or Main and uh main a Main Street you you would probably see it and then um looking in the area I noticed the the tow houses by Sparta Bowl behind the bowling alley there's tow houses up there now in certain areas if you're far enough away you could see them from this property we look right at each other they're at a higher elevation but this property is probably the highest elevation along Sparta Avenue heading South and Main Avenue all the Main Street all the way over to Route 15 um so from far away you will see this building and from those say those tow houses up behind behind the bowling alley you'll see the building you you'll see each other um I would think that from the upper floors of this building I don't know I forgot if it's a shop right or the shop happin shop over by route on Route 15 uh from the top floor you'll see that building but this building doesn't block anybody's views because there's no views there's nobody to block where the highest piece of property in the area and there's again it's undeveloped on actually really three sides because part of our property is under developed so I'm not sure what the the goal is but we're not blocking anybody's views and I guess the Improvement of the building um will address the visual impact of the building am I close the environmental and vied standards were specifically included you know 25 almost 30 years ago in the master plan um for environmental and historic considerations um you know the property is pretty Topography is is not hide this building if anything it you know shows it more in the area and so I think um prior and I we haven't really hard deep architectural history um testimony yet about how the changes you know will impact some of the comments but I think previously you know the flat roof building the architectural treatments the potential for building mounted um or roof mounted utilities um and mechanical there was concerns as far as how does how does that you know further the master plan goals because this this site specifically is shown on the in the master plan as you know having viewshed um considerations so so and and you I did not address the rooftop units um uh in speaking with the architect the the heating system heating cooling system will be called mini split so there's little condensers some of them are small I mean they could be 2 feet or 3 feet high they'll be on the roof for the unit and it'll be a um air handler system for the corridors they're all small low 3 feet maybe the big air handler could be 4 feet high but there's a going to be a 3ot parit around the building and there's no way anyone is going to see those units because they're in the middle of the building and you've got to get up pretty high in order to see them and again there's nothing higher than us except for the the tow houses I mentioned across the valley and they won't see them either so there's nothing all from from any view of the building I'm confident that all you'll see is the elevation of the building the walls not the mechanical equipment that's all I have for Mr Burton Mr chairman thank you all right um if we could just one more time so Mr Simmons I want to see if you had your questions answered yes Mr chairman based on what I asked before about the bus stop and when Mr Burton went through my report of February 16th 20124 he basically followed those comments and provided some additional information and do you have any other concerns that that arise out of what you heard today no um the one thing he did mention was that they were doing some additional survey work down by the intersection of their access drive with spart Avenue and the one thing that I noticed on the driveway plan was it's very tight down there there's a freestanding sign called for and what have you and when that property line is further delineated that'll have to be looked at to make sure they can get all the apperances within their own property right that's why we did the survey yes Katherine um so I didn't necessarily raise questions in the suppl to memo I did you know bring in a lot of um other information as far as the master plan and how it relates to the application that was in previous in my original Memo from October um I still strongly believe that the amenities as offered really they're lacking um I don't think it meets the intent and purpose of the ordinance you know I had a chance to look look back at the at the original application that was approved back in 2020 the Captiva application and and I'm glad Mr Burton um brought up the fact that the I didn't even realize the amenity space is a is a copy of what was from that project and the site plan is so incredibly different from that project and the context matters and the driveway and the location of the parking and the structured parking all matter uh about how that outdoor mity space functioned and I will say that um you know the location was entirely different the location was in uh you know the northern portion of the site um right over there and the building wrapped around and there was another driveway entrance that came right down to um to the underground parking there was kind of it's the driveway split and so you know my concerns are still I think valid I think what I shared in the memo about this really seems to not give difference to The Pedestrian it I think Mr Burton provided also that kind of sidewalk plan and it concerns me that it includes signs that say watch out for pedestrians I feel like the site can be designed better to to have to not need signs to say there's pedestrians walking it's just doesn't seem like it's pedestrian friendly at this point and like I said the other plan had a lot less surface parking a lot of the parking was tucked Underground the amenities were located on that north side of property about one cross it was still a crosswalk away it was still across one of the driveways but it was 50 ft away from this from one of the side entrances to the building this is 150 ft from the building and I just don't see it proper getting utilized properly I think uh it's going to be a place where snow gets dumped you know in a winter month and you're you're never and it's just going to kind of fall apart so I I really think that that's that's lacking and the I I think there are other opportunities I I I you know if the applicant believes that that area somewhere that's going to be the least noisy I think that's the least of the worries I'm more concerned about pedestrian safety I'm more about more concerned about how usable that space is and that it meets the intend and purpose of the ordinance and there was other I mean there was other things about uh pedestrian safety that the master plan emphasized as well well so I I stated those in the supplemental review as well in addition to the amenity space but it all you know ties together there's indoor amenity issues I don't know if we touched upon I if we're going to get into that with the architect necessarily if there's anything redesigned in the interior of the building but again the the previous project included a significant interior amenity package even if the outdoor amenity wasn't you know is was the same as this and even despite being a larger uh unit density um the indoor amenity package was substantial it was a whole community space pretty much dedicated and here again it feels like an afterthought um I we I shared and my office shared a few comments about how we think that it could be done a little bit differently as far as where the location of that space is how it would actually you know further some of the goals as far as noise generation and when there's congregations how you you know first floor units are probably going to be the most susceptible to parking lot lights to noise at the lobby area um and so maybe moving those some of those units to Upper floors um so those were shared in the memo as well um the architectural design was was changed but we've yet to hear from the architect about maybe testimony related to that because U there the Town Center master plan does have an architectural design section um that talks specifically about historic character uh the textures and materials so I'd like to hear some testimony about that from the other the other witness um I don't necessarily think Mr bur's the one to do that um but yeah I think you know I still have issues with the amenity space I still have issues with The Pedestrian circulation if I may just one thing on The Pedestrian circulation with the other plan the sidewalk was still on the north side of the driveway and as you came up it crossed it had to cross that driveway to get to the building because the building was on the south side of the driveway so we did if I may um the the driveway came up from Sparta Avenue and continued along that that Northerly property line and there was a crosswalk to get to the building so our crosswalk is up at top uh again because we had to you know because the sidewalk is on one side and the access to the buildings on the other anyway so it's not much different and I don't think there's that that kind of traffic that's a problem with the sidewalk we can talk about the amenities and the other things any other concerns Katherine no that's all I have for right now thank you let me go the Das of questions soel can we start with you I'm actually good for the moment okay I just I I'd like to revisit one one thing um I'm a little confused originally we had said that this would be a 40 unit rental only building did we make a change and say that now there has to be a 15% for sale or did I misunderstand that we Catherine pointed out to me uh that the the four the 15% for sale requirement kicks in when you go to four stories and over the coverage of 40% in the zone if you were three stories you can go without the four sale units but with the affordable units but if you're at four stories plus the higher than 40% coverage those two incentives allow you to the with if you take advantage of those two incentives you have to provide the the 15% for sale units and that's so it is required so it is required and we're informing the applicant of that too because that's Katherine's re review yeah and my reading as well um I think it's just it's basically just a requirement you got to you got to do the the 15% for sale in addition to the 15% affordable the the Poor Sale do not have to be affordable they so and and I don't know if this explains it better but this is how I understand it which maybe it'll help and I hope it'll help the code section is entitled incentive zoning this is the zoning was changed to create incentives which is different than base zoning it's different than bulk standards they're less requirements and more um it changes the Zone based on what you do which is what Tom just explained so when you do there's it allows for apartment and multi family buildings in the in these Town Center zones at the incentives for lots that are greater than two acres in size are that if you do a three-story building or you do a four story building there's things connected to that few of those being that it UPS the bulk standard allowance for impervious coverage um it UPS um it's it could be written better the ordinance standard cuz it is a little confusing I it doesn't necessarily tie the building height in my opinion or the number of units to that but it uh or to the incentive I'm sorry um to the and but it does tie um the offering of of for sale units as a set aside to the to the incentives to allow and so in in my view how I how I see an incentive rather than a bulk requirement deviation from that is you either provide the 15% as part of the incentive to get the incentive to get the bonus part of it if you don't offer that then you're stuck with the original bulk standard of the zone so if the incentive allows you to have 60% coverage or 80% coverage if you offer that 15% of for sale affordable units then you get the then you get the you get you get that coverage if you don't offer those four sale units you go back down to 40% that the zone good and and if you deviate from that then that's a bulk bulk variance so I think that was probably raised I think Mr Dash had raised something to that extent um I know it's unclear it's a very it's unusual incentive zoning is unusual um but it doesn't it only kicks in the incentives only kick in if you provide what the incentive basis is what it's asking for and if it's not offered then you don't get the incentive thank you so so for Clare if I can just stay on the same question um from the could I hear um the position from flu in terms of do you agree that that's the requirement and that you'll meet it thank you and just to confirm those are six affordable units correct thank you well it's six affordable and that's 15% of 40 for sale and it's 15 I'm sorry it's 15% for sale which is six for sale for sale are not the affordable right okay we need the affordables to be rental right because rentals provide a two unit credit for every rental you get two units at least under the Old Co rules the new statute was adopted enacted today and has differences about credits but we are operating under the round three rules for your Township of Sparta housing and ement and fair share plan which received a judgment of compliance from the superior court and a settlement agreement with fair share housing center and all of this is related to that very good okay thank you the one question I think the applicant's attorney just answered it but does the applicant agree to do the six for sale units as we're discussing okay okay and one other question the amenities that you're were talking about is that in the ordinance or a specific section of an ordinance that you have handy the you got to give me a second the um the definition for for um the multif family units and I'll pull it up if I can um includes essentially that there is shall require so it's not uh it's not written in a way if you give me a moment I can pull it up should have had on hand sorry no that's fine I just didn't know where to look it doesn't so Norm a defin definition may say like an a apartment building is you know a number of units you know stacked on top of each other or next to each other that may include you know amenities in the case of the definition I think it was probably written with purpose it includes that it shall include uh amen outdo indoor and outdoor amenities um and various site plan elements so they kind of are required now there's no sizing requirement there's no they don't need to you know provide a 10% of the total lot area they don't need to Pro there's nothing like that but there is definitely um as part of the definition requirements that are pretty specific about you know those those those elements okay thanks what what C was trying to point out in her report which maybe the architect could take some time to think about too and talk about is she's suggesting that where they're on higher floors maybe some of those amenity rooms and storage rooms and things could be on the first floor and perhaps even from what I heard tonight at sections of the first floor of the building where it might be near the outdoor amenity that could be relocated or some outdoor amenity that could be relocated although that that might be a noisy activity it is a apartment uh style activity to have things near a building so there might be ways to combine this recommendation that Katherine has about uh the indoor amenities being relocated to the first floor to also coordinate with where the outdoor amenity would be but I'll defer to Katherine about what her point was yeah I it was mostly for just um and there aren't requirements related to it but it was really to say that it's a missed opportunity if we're not looking deeply at how these these spaces are going to serve there's no purpose in providing something simply because it fulfills the requirement under the ordinance definition these should be spaces that are well thought out and they have impacts on the site this is you know 40 Apartments which there are going to be residents that need open space they need amenities so that they don't have to leave the site to go elsewhere because it will generate more traffic and so um I think keeping that in consideration there are purposes behind the amenities rather than just you know a direct requirement okay thank you a few questions um the uh colorized renderings of the other three sides we'll see those later those were presented those were presented at the last meeting those are not changing so those you know will have the same coloring as this rendering but we did show you the four sides we changed the facade so everything we see on the front here is just for the front this won't carry over to the sides that is correct except for The Coloring have you considered following this same design at least on the side visible to Sparta Avenue that is a question that I will ask my client uh I'm going and ask for a break when we finish the questions before we go to the architecture okay thank you the uh I know there's a question in the in the Katherine's report about uh the parking lot design guidelines being met can you confirm that those design guidelines have been fully met um yes I I'm I'm I'm pretty pretty sure they have yes there was a one of the design guidelines listed in the master plan Amendment for the town de Town Center development design gu guidelines requires uh number seven requires parking lot should be designed with landscape buffers which I think Mr Simmons brought up the 5 foot requirement and Inter dispersed landscaped Island to reduce visual impact of large expanses of asphalt um so while there's not probably a specific ordinance requirement related to the use of landscape Islands or different intermittent intervals can you just describe some of the landscape islands that are included in the plantings on them um yes this is a a small parking lot and we put um as I mentioned we we moved a couple of parking spaces to put landscape Islands uh in the center row thank you so does that therefore meet the 30% planting requirement of the impervious surface yeah I believe so okay and originally it hadn't does this bring us to at least the 30% of the plant material do we have a calculation for that or can it be provided on a future plan okay we'll do that thank you thank you um yeah I there is a uh an item on the plan landscape area 30% of impervious and we we have 48% that could be the overall I also share um same concerns we could talk more about it later about the amenity space being insufficient and pedestrian safety risk um it seems like you can't pass a day or two in the news about reading about in New Jersey about pedestrian injuries and deaths um by vehicles I think it's just increasing whether it's on public roads or even on private property like this so would like to talk some more about that later uh the curb Cuts so I know in Mr Simmons report there was a a question about curb cut to Lot number two and I know in the police traffic safety most recent report there was a recommendation as well to remove some of the curb cuts down further on the driveway I heard a reference to it earlier tonight but if you can just confirm or clarify if it would be possible to remove some of those curb cuts to stop the cut through traffic I know we mentioned the school bus might be easier for some parents to get through the back way but in terms of other people circumventing coming down the spart Avenue all the way there are easements so legally they have ACC a right to access and that's the driveway shown um in the front the the the two McDonald I mean McDonald's two Burger King driveways and then there's two driveways behind the retail Center okay so the retail Center as well there's easements for that okay thank you uh I know Mr Simmons report has highlighted um interesting fact about the amount of material and soil that would need to be removed during the process and I believe the rough estimate was the equivalent of 650 655 tandem truck loads of excess material would need to be removed um can you just walk us through a little bit that seems to me like an enormous amount I'm not in this business though can you explain the duration the timing the impact on adjacent properties just a little bit about how that would play out I I guess the excavation would take place over the course of a month or six weeks something like that so if we had uh that would be you know 20 trucks a day something like that out you know bringing material out MH and again that depends on who's Contracting it where they need it you know there's brokers who figure that out but yes that'll be material coming up unfortunately there's nothing we can do on site because we're you know moving into the uh Hill there's no place for us to use it and that's that's all I can answer yeah and those would be obviously during daytime hours yes okay do you foresee a major impact on the neighboring property owners and their businesses no no not really because we're going to come down the the driveway is already beat up it's poth hole City and so I you know the trucks will finish it and then we'll re rebuild the road so I don't see an impact on on that okay and and fortunately there's no residences you know adjacent to the property mhm just an observation Mr I was there today so hopefully they actually put material in those potholes might improve it I guess okay um just to be clear I know that there was two signs mentioned um just want to confirm your understanding that we're not approving signs as part of this process right you're going to come back to get signs approved at a future date right if that's what it is yeah yeah yeah because I don't think I don't think unless I'm mistaken we haven't seen sign designs and anything provided a sign location and a size yeah but in terms of the actual look feel fonts all that you'll come back for that okay uh next question is regarding Wetlands um in the past there was references to Wetlands being in the area here um in fact it was in one of the planning board meeting minutes back from October 2013 that I think that's Z board Dean I think it was planning no I don't think so okay it was one of the two no was planning board actually oh okay yeah um and it mentioned there being wetlands in this area I I can't put my finger on if it's this property exactly but um what's the process for confirming that there's no wetlands in the that would be affected by this is it well first I I had looked at the New Jersey geow web and then at the um um conservation blueprint uh and I didn't see any Wetlands mapped uh the next level would be is to have our Wetlands guy go out there and walk the site to see if there's wetlands and then the third stage would be to get an absence presence letter from the do D so what would be the the Second Step then would be have someone come out there and do a a visual a certified visual inspection of the property Wetlands specialist would walk the site to see if you found Wetlands is that something that you would consider they'll ask our client during the break okay just to confirm the uh I did see the fire department had new reports you're you're aware of those of course about a larger Siz truck being able to maneuver that will be met uh I'll let Mr Burton answer as to the truck maneuvering everything that was in the fire department report was fine okay could address yes and we we I I'll check on on the size but we already show a truck fire truck going up and looping around the driveway and and this is a standard driveway that you'd have at a shopping center or any you know 24t aisles 9 by8 parking spaces so um you know I I I don't foresee there being a problem but I'll I'll double check it okay thank you okay thank you that's all I have for now appreciate it okay Justin why don't we start down at your end and we'll work our way back um yeah I think one of the the things that I'd be interested um as Dean mentioned is maybe um having the sides match the front where you would see it from other spots of town um I did have one question on the um the lanterns um where you said that you investigated them further um can you just give me a little more detail on that piece I didn't hear it we originally picked a lantern that was close but not the same making model as uh on on Sparta Avenue and then it happened we have a a lighting consultant that came into our office and we showed him a picture he say give us that light and um so um that's what we put on the plans and um you know I I didn't get the spec that you have in town but it it's if it's not the same light it's very very very very close okay I don't think you notice the difference that's all for me now if I could just I just want to make sure you you got uh answer to to the question so the question I thought I heard was you know would they be willing to do something to the sides and the back to match the front I'm not sure that I I heard an answer there don't know the answer yet okay but you'll be considered I'll ask the question thank you yeah that's what I heard I think they were going to ask and come back to us on that piece yeah okay thank you all right well most questions I had already been asked but uh but I do want to go back to one uh when Mr bedy talked about the fire department the fire truck just to make you aware what what the fire department's concern is is is a ladder truck and which is certainly necessary to get up there with a four-story building and that truck is 40t 7 in long with a 19inch wheelbase so I think it just needs to be confirmed that that can make that curve and uh and not get stuck I say the roadways standard width but there is a pretty sharp curve at the top so that's okay I just general statement I'm not worried about the curve at the driveway I just I worry about the the the curve at the islands I have no problem with the truck getting up there um but we'll double check that chistine couple of things uh burning questions I have one is that um if I got this Miss sod there's a tradeoff that goes on if you in this particular situation if you own four units then you can have 60% impervious surface is that what I I hear uh is happening here based on this particular devel velopment and the the apartments so yes they have part of the incentive ordinance is that if you offer 15% of the total units as for sale then you you can receive this you know bulk incentive for the impervious okay thank you it seems very harmful to to have that you know because what you're doing is you're degrading the environment there you know and I mean having four owners is no different than having four renters you're still going to have the same impact on on the environment but you know we're waving a standard of 40% for that so I I don't get the connection maybe somebody else gets that connection but I certain I I think if I could you know the ordinance allows a certain impervious coverage that says if you offer for salees you you get this allowance and I I think the application the way it's submitted and correct me if if I'm wrong is they they meet that requirement based on providing the six so so it's not it's a question of what's the requirement do they meet it I believe the answer was was yes yes no no I I just wanted to make sure that I was understanding something that didn't meet Common Sense also the affordable housing units are affable housing that's great yeah yeah that's linked into the same incentive yeah commend you read read through the whole incentive section the 8.5 um it offers incentives mostly like as Mr bledy just added to for the creation of affordable housing it allows for additional um like mixed use office space as a result it offer it allows as long as you're the trade-off is supposed to be that you're allowing for more affordable housing to get developed because this was part of our set in our settlement agreement in our housing element fair share plan the Town Center zones were included for the creation of affordable housing so while I think that it probably will have or you know isn't friendly to environmental standards it was supposed to help capture the affordable housing requirement that the township was facing right so now what I'm seeing is it's kind of a balance between social justice and environmental justice but if I may maybe I could put you at ease a little bit although there's an 80% requirement what the impervious coverage that exists to day as a result of the footprint of what was there is 56.8% what's being proposed is 59.4% so basically a 2 and a half% increase what was previously approved by the board with the 70 unit project was 68.1% which is roughly a 9% decrease so in terms of we're not maximizing ing the coverage as a result of the ordinance we're actually reducing it from what was previously approved and slightly increasing from what is there yeah I I I appreciate that I guess that makes me feel a little bit better uh the other um thing that I wanted to just bring up I'm looking at um I'm looking at the storm drainage uh number eight and um I found it very unusual that you would have a um underneath the pavement you would have um the runoff being treated so that's what will be going on uh in terms of the the storm water runoff because I'm used to seeing all around our area drainage basin so I I tried to check this out and see if both water quantity um which you stress uh the Water quantity reductions are being met but also the the water quality that goes into the recharge aspect so because I you know that's that's the most important thing that that's what being re re-released into the soil layers is improved yes we are meeting requirements there's new treatment systems that come out all the time we have a aquaponic type uh system which has uh filter media in the in the underground chamber and the water flows through it and and is cleaned and there's a maintenance schedule that has to be done so the de this is certified by the D to meet their standards okay that was my next question then all of that's going to be collected underneath the surface there and in traps or or whatever and then you're going to have to remove the asphalt to or the pavement in order to clean clean it there's vanhole covers people will go in and maintain it and bring it out and that's why the maintenance the part of our storm water report is a maintenance manual that gets recorded with the deed so that everyone knows what the maintenance is it's not forgotten so that's recorded and uh and and the maintenance schedule is published yeah that's very important all right uh thank you that's all you're up Mr Kalisto thank you uh your patience while you're answering our questions can you go through the traffic pattern of the parking lot um there going to be one ways both ways of of your lot all all aisles are two-way all aisles are two-way okay all all two of them well in the side I'm in living in the left half portion of the apartment building yep the expectation is they're going to walk out the front door instead of the side door and then walk all the way around that sidewalk to the amenity area oh um yeah well look chances are people walk right through the sidewalk I mean right through the parking lot it's not that there's a lot of traffic so they could walk through or we we've got the walkway to go around it if you were in a whe chair or had a baby stroller or something like that we provided a handicap free route to get to the part to the amenity space and I mentioned there's also little amenity areas uh in the FR on the front of the building right but if you're going to have a let's say a partment in the summer you'd have to go to the amenity area on the other side of the parking lot right now what's that no no as as shown yes the problem I'm having with and Katherine pointed up before um master plan Amendment Town Center development design G par parking lot should be designed to avoid conflicts between uh vehicular and pedestrian traffic just I'm having a hard time imagining that if I'm in one of those far left Apartments I'm not going to use that sidewalk I'm just going to cut across the park lot um and the distance of 150 ft or whatever 145 ft just it just seems out of the way and and not produce it to being utilized by the tenants um I was just wondering if there's a way that you can add a second side if you're going to leave it in that location to add a second sidewalk on the other side of the parking lot as well um I can look in that excuse me is that is that a is that a very Steep Hill from the our left corner of the building down to the sidewalk is that very steep there it gets that way and we we'd have to do some grading if you recall when I I said when we took a couple parking spaces out of the middle lot and brought to the lower left corner we had to put a little retaining wall there it's a little it's only 3 ft high but beyond beyond our parking lot it it does drop down like I said I'll look at it okay sorry Bill um there was a couple statements about the easements along that that would prevent from having the continuous curve cut if there are easements already why was there any kind of discussion about um people the tenants being able to use that part of the driveway to get back from the school from dropping off the kids at school the easement were created years ago and they only provided for the driveway access for the two properties which was the Burger King and the shopping center it didn't really address what was occurring on this site years ago because it was the I believe the motel and then Assisted Living so there were rights that were giving given but not corresponding rights given to this property it just allowed that access to that driveway um there seems to be conflicting testimony and you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong about um Mr MC's testimony from I'm not sure if it was the last one or the previous one and and your testimony tonight uh Mr Kalisto about the um the tenants tonight you said statistics would indicate that you would have uh families um in the apartment building and then earlier I'm not sure which one there was right um the indication was that the tenants would mostly be young professionals deor or do do you have more accurate statistics of who would be living there statistically when you look at the school children you look at the ruer study which is basically one child for every 6 to8 units so statistically that's what would be there uh real life in certain locations you find that there are less school children however I I believe and I don't know if Mr McNerney said this it's typically the affordable units which would generate school children but if you look at it statistically if you did an impact statement on it they' go to the ruer study and I'll allow Mr Burton to answer the question exactly so I'm not testifying but I just wanted to provide the clarification and and that's what's in the environmental impact statement is the ruter study to generate the school age children and I'm thinking it was 11 I think that's the number I don't remember but it's something like that so it would be all different grades but what Mr McNerney said is what happens in apartments you have newly single people and professionals and young professionals and retirees but you also will have some families okay I just got uh a few questions um first I just want I wanted to really um I guess second support um Bill's thoughts about having a sidewalk coming out out of the other side of the building um that would go from I guess like the left side of the building out out to the sidewalk I think there's going to be a lot of traffic there and that would avoid the need for students to have to walk through the parking lot to get to the sidewalk they could just exit the building come along the sidewalk to the left and then just have a walk that goes right to the sidewalk and connects it and avoid that whole thing um yeah if we were to come out on the uh left side or the sport Avenue side and come down and we want to connect closer or or you could even almost Follow the arrow that's there it could even be short we we we just have a staircase here and then the handicap access would be the long way around but yes we could come out and put a staircase down that Hill easily enough okay cut yeah cut cut 150 ft off the walk and and then looking at the the sidewalks the way it is now and I had a hard time seeing I missed out on the drawing so I apologize but so if I look at the drawing it's up there now on the far right hand side along the side of the parking lot there is a sidewalk there that connects to the building yes yes along the it says 4 foot sidewalk ah okay thank you I missed it my apologies that's all right okay um the other concern that I just want to talk about a little bit is the one loading space I know that you've testified you feel that that the one is sufficient um so let me ask I probably should have looked at the Captiva I don't do you remember how many Captiva had one they had one okay and your other buildings um of similar size how many do they have can testify to that okay some have n and others would have one it really depends on the size uh we just completed a 250 unit building I believe it had two loading spaces okay uh which It's Not Unusual but Bob why don't you come up and answer the question or you can answer it when it comes up later too that that's fine um let me see that there was one other one um will you be talking later to the size of the community room yes we're once we break I'll speak to the architect and client okay that's that's all I have thank you I just have one quick question can you show me where the fire hydrants are please well right now I I I see one it's it's over here by the trash enclosure there's a fire hydrant there I think that's the only hydrant we have is is right because the water's coming up from the street and we have a hydrant there could you just describe in words where you're pointing oh I'm I'm pointing uh by the trash enclosure between the trash enclosure and the building we put a fire hydrant so yeah it would definitely be important important to make sure that the fire trucks can get around to to that space the truck we use which is a little smaller than what was described can get fully around the parking lot but we'll look at a a larger truck thank you okay any other questions on the dis Ju Just if I may uh Mr day uh the Fire official or the fire marshal did raise the issue with location and we indicated we would comply thank you okay if if we could I'd like to open it up to the public for if they have any questions related to the testimony that was given tonight hi Vivian Pearl five Morgan drive viian please raise your right hand do you swear for him to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I swear and please Buell your last name p e r l m u tt e r is there any ordinance um after the unit is purchased to prevent the person from them renting it out in other words if it's a purchased unit is that in like a covenant into the uh apartment no technically in New Jersey that can't be regulated but the ordinance does require that six or 15% of the 40 be for sale okay so the owner could then yes buy them and rent them out that is correct okay but that's because the state of New Jersey prohibits municipalities from regulating either condominiums or or rental it's actually two statutes the municipal land law and the Condominium Act thanks to our great legislature totally prohibit that okay I um it was interesting that you people uh brought up the U uh townhouse development at Mara which is right next to the bowling alley and if you've ever gone there I've gone there several times and it it has a beautiful entrance just like most every development here in Sparta previous planning boards always insisted on Lovely entrances just drive to a spot of Commons where they even have a bus shelter for the children drive over to Mara you can come um I'm I'm in spart of Chase I I can swear to you that none of these developers wanted to spend a whole lot of money on an entrance way they all wanted to do it as cheaply as possible because they want to make the biggest profit possible but the planning boards that sat where you were sitting previously insisted that Sparta must look good that when people came to a place where people lived in Sparta that it would look good and it's not these the proposed entrance does not look good to me and I really it it it hurts me to think the property values of a town depend on whether a town looks Charming really I I'm I I hate to think that looks matter so much but they do and you have to know that previously our history our planning boards insisted that anyone who wanted to develop a property here in Sparta had to pay the extra money to make a beautiful entrance just drive into Sparta Commons it looks lovely as you walk drive in and and we have to keep that up or everything sinks in the town previously I lived in parcion and I saw how things went down down down and it only stays good if you insist on it being good so I'm asking you to have some car and and assure you the to Brothers never wanted to put a dime into an entrance way they they shaved every penny off of everything and and they never would have done it if the planning board hadn't insisted on it and and and people do what they have to do and please have courage thank you Miss P if you could be before you you st down I just want to make sure that people understand so so this portion of the question of the um public comments it's really questions directed to the applicant so is there a question along those lines that you would like ask is there any way you can beautify this entrance you're talking about a road you're just going to pave it what about the the plantings next to it the signage is going to matter everything's going to matter people don't want to drive up the Burger King and entrance way and into a housing place it just doesn't have any charm um we don't we have so much real estate we're we're limited we don't have a lot of Frontage we are improving it we're Paving it we're putting Street lanterns up the entire driveway and we're putting a sidewalk in um and elsewhere we are planting um Lawns or vegetation where there's no sidewalk uh we had not there well that that's we are improving it to the extent we can if we had more real estate I'd make big swiping sweeping driveways but I don't have that real estate well and there's no way to buy anything along the uh bypass and come in that way no not okay thank you and again to just other members of the public if if you could direct a question to applicate and you know opinion opinion type questions we want to hear your thoughts we want to hear everything that all you all those opinions but that that would be later when we close the testimony and you have a right to comment and provide your opinions this portion is supposed to be really questions to the applicant about the testimony they've given tonight all right thank you thank you Margie Murphy N9 poblo Parkway Miss Murphy please raise your right hand do you swear friend tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do and please spell your last name m py thank you uh yes I had a question of where with the redesign of the facade where did you look in Sparta and what kind of um architecture would you consider that that to be that that would match a Swiss Village I think we have to get to the architect next uh for that answer because this Witness neither of these Witnesses really are Architects so okay U maybe focus on any questions for Mr McNerney or Mr um and the busing and the children that come down there that really is not a huge area and also there's a pot store right there that the children are going to be coming down and being picked up in the bus that you may want to think about maybe having a bus up there because having kids dropped up in front of a well-known pot store is not really ideal um then I'll wait for the architecture thank you Mark Scott 9 P Parkway sparter New Jersey Mr Scott please raise your ra hand do you swear firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got yes sir and please spell your last name s c o TT thank you uh last time you you gentleman were here when you're out on the on this in front of the building you were talking about how you would just buy the units and rent them out but according to New Jersey Law deed restrictions for affordable homes include but are not limited to the following the homeowner is required to live in the home as their primary place of residence there's no question Mr which is defined as residing in the home at least 26 days out of each calendar year parate complying with that the affordable it's already been yeah the affordable housing is different the question previously raised this about affordable housing no I know the statements about the sale units sale units are not affordable units in this development the affordable housing requirements of the state of New Jersey of COA rules and of uak rules will apply to all of the affordable units there will be six affordable rental units and they must comply with the D with the DCA and uck uh it's actually the New Jersey mortgage Finance Agency which you're probably familiar with rules for deed restricted affordable units so I don't if you want to ask a question please go ahead but there's we're we're not allowing we're not allowing them to violate the there seems to be some confusion here are these COA units Miss sard said they were for sale Mr Mr Collins says they're not and you're saying they were for sale are they for sale or are they for rent well everything you just said is not accurate and what M everything I just said everything you just said okay Mr Collins indicated before when this was being discussed with the board this is a 40 unit project yes 15% of those units will be rental affordable 15% of those units will also be for sale the for sale are not the affordable units under New Jersey law based upon COA regulations to the extent those regulations are still in effect require that they be deed restricted for a period of 30 years but that's six units that's not the entire uh remaining 34 units what what he just said Mark is correct um okay maybe maybe the uncertainty was that the confusion is they're two different 15% one is for there have to be six four sale units if they're a 40 and the other is that there must be six rental affordable units and that is a good thing for Sparta because rental units in Co rules achieve a at least under the current Co rules which are changed as of today uh provide one bonus unit or one bonus credit for every rental unit so that six rental affordable units equals 12 affordable credits under the COA maath let's call it um but they are two separate things that we're talking about six for sale units and six affordable rental units the for sale ones are not affordable the the six uh affordable rental units are rental only and they do have to comply they have to have a deed restriction that's in our ordinance that's in the co rules it's uh required in the uhak rules as well so and that is checked and implemented and comp must be complied with going forward for the 30 years and sometimes there's a way to even extend those 30-year restrictions uh and try to obtain additional credits after the 30 years expire because they are they are they've been expiring in various developments throughout New Jersey are these are the for sale units going to be all in one area on one floor are they going to be scattered throughout the building don't know you indicated that you were going to put in a tank to improve the water pressure and then you also talked about how the water to to fight a fire would come up from the sparta Avenue and I just want to know if would the tank that's going to increase the water pressure will that be available during a fire situation well uh there would be a fire pump inside the building for the sprinkler system that would be there that would be part of the purpose of the the tank as far as fighting a fire we'd have the hydrant there but that's again that's part of the mechanical design and working it out the intent that there's a hydrant there it's got to work and it's got to meet the fire code so that's another agency Beyond this board that that's the intent of the project so so the water pressure that you were speaking of primarily is to increase the water pressure for the tenants is that correct or no or is it for the a fire well it the primary one would be for the fire but it's got to have 20 psi at least for the tenants but we need the fire suppression system that will be reviewed by the building department and that has to meet their requirements okay um why do you believe that the Rucker study applies here when we calculate um our student calculation we previously had a had a project called North Village here and developer came in and told us that that there was only going to be there was going to be less than 20 PE 20 school age children there now we have 180 children there and we are building a new school so why why should we believe that there's going to be 11 kids and when when obviously the last developer or the developer I'm speaking of was wrong by a multiple of nine well I don't know what he based his counts on but this is the guidelines that we have to go by it's not something that I'm going to make up or a planner will make up we we have guidelines to use I mean we have a very good school system here we have a very good Community people move here to for the charm of Sparta and and I I I you know just can't believe it's just going to be 11 kids um are you going to stick with the 22t parking space size you're not going to come in and ask for it to be knocked down right parkings on the plan right and you said it was 22 ft didn't you no 18 miles are 24 9 by8 okay 9 by 9 by 18 or 9 by 20 I'm going to say 9 by 18 uh oh no they're 9 by 20 even though we can make them 9 by 18 no no don't make it 9 by1 18 only only certain developers in this town get get to move it down to 18 um okay and then we'll be able to talk about the outside exterior design at at a later moment moment thank you I think they said they would address that yes any other members from the public 8an mirman 12 Brook Drive mman please raise your right hand do you swear firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you God yes I do please spell your last name m e e r R M A N I have a question for the Eng for the engineer uh the last question of the previous meeting had to do with the c dependent nature of this apartment building there was a question asked by a lady like you know is this a c dependent development and the answer was yes you know in this in this part of the State uh the cars really are an important part of the do you remember yeah yeah okay uh here in Sp uh we've been trying to make the town more walkable and you respond with with sidewalks along the roads and you have responded with sidewalk along the drive which is a 4T wide s um sidewalk along the uh the the north side of the driveway now 4 ft is not enough for more than one person across so in Sparta what we have is a 4ft sidewalk and a 3ot buffer area if you will with pavers so we have 7 foot sidewalks people can walk safely and feel that they're not just scurrying along a road but that they have a true opportunity to walk from A to B is there any way you can expand the sidewalk capacity when you plan to make it conforming to the general standards we have in Sparta well we we'll look at that I think you're you might be referring to like a often there's 3 feet from the curb and then the sidewalk is beyond that and in that three feet you could put the pavers we have the sidewalk up against the uh curb um we we'll we'll look at it okay how would you look at that is the current um the current driveway is that the same road bed that you're going to use for your new road or do you have to widen the road the road bed well the sidewalk is beyond the current paved area now so we are widening it to get the sidewalk in we are in increasing impervious coverage to get right so so you'll be cutting into the hill in order to create a sidewalk correct that's why we we have a a small wall there there's remnants of walls there now but we're putting a wall in in order to get the sidewalk in all right um now as that sidewalk goes down to the area near 181 where at one point there's going to be a lot of shared pavement between cars between the sidewalk or the uh the sidewalk um connection to the sidewalk on week 181 you mentioned that the paint there's worn away you would refresh the paint in order to make it more clear that which part of that pavement is meant to walk on and that cars would not think that that is part of their roadway no no um well they they don't um parallel to the curb on the on Sparta Avenue and and a little bit off the curb would be the crosswalk Where the Sidewalk would be which is roughly 3T or so or begins 3T or so from the curb line back the pavement Stripes have worn out and we will restripe across our driveway and into the shopping center driveway to the north of us um as a design solution also a safety solution the engineer Mrs Sant alluded to it that um one of the the concerns is that there's no clear separation of the use of a certain piece of side uh pavement is it for cars is it was uh pedestrian pedestrians it's a mixed use essentially right right it's a crosswalk so it crosses a driveway correct so I'm going to continue at that point so the crosswalk can be done with a paint which going to wear away or the pavement of the sidewalk can actually continue and be a much stronger visual reminder that pedestrians have a right away that they can walk there safely uh as opposed to pedestrians crossing a road you would have cars respecting a continued sidewalk that they have to cross with a little platform to get to say the parking lot would you consider investing in that kind of solution that we see spring up around the country and that I think would be very good for your project are you talking about like a a speed table where this it could be yeah right the sidewalk could could be a speed table yeah I I given the constraints we're we're we're in a tight area I don't know that it'll work I'll take a look at it but um we have to meet the driveway next door we'd have to no I I I don't according to the drawings it will work okay so uh yeah please look into that and and report back to us um you invited us last time to visit the site and to see how wonderful the site is elevated above the town and and the views and so on so I went there and I look specifically at the trees which are mature and are in very bad shape those trees look very stressed they have been covered in Vines for years if not decades and when I look at similar trees on my own property they're dying one after another so currently we have a site with mature trees but I would say there's absolutely no guarantee that in 5 years any of those trees will still still be there so my question for you as far as the Landscaping goes at what point will you begin to fill in those trees that you must take down in order to always have a mature growth around your building I I mentioned at the onet of the hearing tonight that we added shrubs or evergreen trees on the plan correct to fill in correct so I and so my question is relative to breaking ground for the building when would you start a landscaping so that we don't end up with a situation where trees all mature trees die off and new trees will take forever to grow to any appreciable s the land the Landscaping has to be installed before the building can be occupied so it has to be put in has to be put in um when when do you plan to break around yes it could be at the end of the you know later on this year if we'll get all the approvals okay oh yeah a question about the roof um you have a parapad wall um to as a visual barrier to all those split units Heating and uh and cooling I couldn't quite tell from the drawing U what will the material be will it look like a roof a man side roof or will it look like a wall that goes up to the current well the architect the architect will answer that but right now A parit is a straight wall it's a continuation of the wall below above the roof so and but the architect can answer that better okay excellent there was a very brief mention of the split units Heating and Cooling um how many such units will there be one for each apartment um at least yes okay um there is a concern about uh the noise effect of those units um with for for the units that may end up in an um harmonic amplification of each other they're all humming on at the same rate and the sound really spreads from that highest point in Sparta all the way across through Byer Plaza during the daytime you may not hear it as much but in the evening when sounds really die down that may become an actual source of noise pollution [Music] um jump to your question they will meet the noise uh ordinance so they will not penetrate I mean uh carry beyond the property line that is um there's a Statewide ordinance about noise levels about noise levels and then one last question I have it was not covered uh this time but you mentioned it last meeting and that is about the electrical supply to the building um nothing was mentioned about it tonight in the February meeting you mentioned there was a utility pole from the street leading to closer property line that you would tap into and Lead cable to your building correct okay I'm just wondering if that poll would have enough capacity to carry an additional 40 unit building with very high logical requirements yeah the the the U companies know how to handle this yes we it would be high voltage oh they know how to handle it and if necessary they will um I'm sure in increase the cables uh I wonder if that is something that was at all part of the application that it would have an effect on the appearance of 181 if different kind of polls need to be brought in to handle the capacity required of the building the answer is no no new polls would be put on Sparta Avenue absolutely not carry with the poles that are there as a matter of fact there are poles that go back to the property that serve the building that was there before so it would just be from Sparta Avenue moving into the property where we would have a couple of poles and then we would go underground um when we get to the bend the first Bend in the road and okay fine and so then from the pole to the building it will be buried on the ground correct uh um I hope that you find a solution for the immunity area which is a concern of the entire board and I would like to join the concern that the imunity area seems to be only to check a box on the application and it has I don't see how it fulfills any kind of function um in in how people live in that department building um I hope that come up with something more creative if you want to hear something from me uh I'll I'll have some some ideas for you um in the in the break and um that's it for right now thank you thank you good evening Jennifer dereck's tap into Sparta do you swear affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do thank you pleas spell your last name d e r i c KS thank you could you please explain a little bit more in detail the uh easements the curb cut easements who has the easements who do they who are they being given to how does that work they exist in title they are to the benefit of the adjoining property owners one of which is the Burger King and one of which is the shopping center those easement have existed for an extended period period of time and it runs with the land so if there are any transfers of the property those easements will continue the the the certainly the drive-thru uh window is understandable the other easements um were addressed in the police report in the in the second police report um created by Corporal Morris in February where he opined that that would be uh illegal uh to have traffic directed into the back of private property so you're saying that that's not the case I can't speak to what Corporal Morris's has said or what it's in his report to you can I finish answer certainly thank you thank you I don't know what was in his head I read his report these are easements that exist he cannot alter the legality of those easements because they are matter of public record and those property owners have the legal right to utilize the properties I can't speak to the intent of the easement because they were created years ago and neither can Corporal Morris Corporal Morris did not look at the traffic report because it's not indicated in his short report we may not like the configuration but that's what has existed and unfortunately has to remain to exist I can tell you that what was in his head because I did ask him was safety uh thank you I'm glad you're going to tell us what's in corpal Morris you ask a qu you can ask a question but not give the board hearsay sure once corpal Mor is here they will ask him wow okay thank you for being so kind um the other question wasman could we do without the editorializing here if there's a question the table we would put it on the table so if I can I just want I want to bring it bring the level down so again so the purpose of this portion of the discussion right now is not to to comment unless it's followed up by for for reasons of setting up a question apologies but it really has to come down a question on the testimony that's been given by I appreciate that and comments again we want to hear them but we'll we'll open up the floor to that later thank you um the you did indicate you had photos of buses and a report from the transport the Board of Education transportation person would that be something I would need to open or will you be willing to share that uh that is not correct we have an email between my client and the Board of Ed and we have pictures that were taken at the site uh you can ask them to produce it m Derek you're you're you're with he's you're you're now cross-examining someone yeah and you can ask them to provide it as a as an Mr Burton will provide the pictures tomorrow morning thank you I appreciate that wonderful thank you for your help that's it for tonight so they'll be we have to make them an exhibit sorry Jen they're now a I believe it's A3 okay A4 we're up to A4 why don't we make all four all what is it three pictures okay so how many there are two photographs so we A3 and a we up to A3 A4 a43 make them A4 maybe Mr McNerney could EXT just uh identify them he he prod produced them just now so we'll mark the back A4 a A4 B na a4c might want to uh Mr mcity when you produce something you have to say you took the pictures you identify them as your pictures you took so if you just come up oh okay if why don't use these because I Mark the back and that way we'll know what a B and C are without too much explanation these are pi pictures I took two weeks ago uh at the bus stop during school hours during the pickup and A4 shows the view looking down Sparta Avenue that would be in easterly Direction I believe look on the back it's A4 a b or c A4 A4 oh my writing isn't clear enough huh hey he think A4 a a a sorry I'll show that to miss Derek the one who ask you to produce these the other now now go to the next what the next one is A4 B I hope fortunately that's a duplicate okay a4b okay that's a4b thank you what does a4b show a4b shows the bus from across the street and the parking lot of the shopping center clearly shows the bus sitting there with the driver has the yellow vest on is there a third photo or was the third one a duplicate 4C is a head-on shot of the bus sitting in the parking lot okay thank you you're welcome there also a reference to an email so if the applicant is willing to can't really open the applicant but if the applicant admits it as an exhibit for you to cross-examine Mr mcy it can become an exhibit which you can get a copy of as part of the record the applicant prepared to produce the email to I just have to look at the email chain because the one that I have I am on it so okay so why don't you take when during the break take a take a minute to see what uh you would like to produce in response to this question I do have a follow-up question if I may on these photos thank you for using them did you while you were observing the bus and the bus driver has exited the bus as you indicated the gentleman or the person going the vest um Did You observe students getting on or off the bus no I did not right and also in the Burger King parking lot in what you have marked as A4 B you'll see there's another bus there and certainly there's not um that's not a bus stop so often what we'll observe throughout the town during down times the buses stop at different places in town they stop at the stopping shop they stop at the bowling testifying so that's for I'm I'm asking if okay I apologize for testifying but I'm just saying that this doesn't necessarily indicate that this is where children get on and off as as was stated and the bus driver has exited the bus which doesn't seem to me to be a bus stop well you're absolutely wrong because I spoke to the border of Ed I the border of eded advised me to go to the high school to talk to the transport Transportation uh boss there she resides at the at the Mohawk Avenue School excuse me the transportation director is at the Mohawk Avenue School let's give okay I'm sorad and I asked uh the lady June June Maco M if in the event we have schoolage children living in this in this building should it be approved where would they get the bus and she said 55 Sparta a right in okay now after that the next day I want to 55 Sparta a to verify that which those pictures depict if that's what you think that's fine thank you okay are there any other members of the public okay so so typically um we we don't start um new testimony after 10:00 but I I think we need a break so um I'm going to recommend that we take a 5 10 minute break um and then come back and maybe we'll start the the the architect that he's here tonight I know we have a lot of applications backing up behind us so we really need to try to get get through this so uh any feel for how long the the testimony will take how long I do not know yet but when I when why don't we take the break and see where we're heading okay sounds good thank you all right 10 minutes everybody 10 after we we're back okay e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e my client uh apparently based upon their experience we believe the amenity areas are sufficient for this number of units Mr DOI will go over the amenity spaces uh and again and also the design so hopefully we won't take too much time okay gonna try try okay let's let's just go go and see where it goes thank you is it just the amenity space that he's going to cover or the the amenity and the the architecture okay okay Mr D you understand you're still under oath yes I do and please state your name and spell your last name Albert DOI d as and David a t as in Thomas T as and Thomas oi thank you Mr please go ahead all right uh Al since the last meeting you provided a redesign of the building correct yes that is correct I'm I'm just I'll give you the mic in a second and before we get to the rendering why don't me tell tell us about what the amenity space is and what's being provided within the building within the building we have three Community rooms one on the second floor one on the third floor and one on the fourth floor those rooms are approximately 320 Square ft each uh we have an exercise room which is approximately 600 square feet and that's on the second floor and that design was done in conjunction with the client correct that is correct uh the client is very satisfied uh he is a uh the company is a manager of 1200 units they are very very um comfortable with the locations of these uh rooms uh and the sizes of these rooms and why don't you tell us why don't you tell us about the revised rendering please so we've redesigned the front facade of the building uh we looked um specifically at um the buildings in the Lake Mohawk area uh the country club area and we saw very steeply pitched roofs um they the the architecture there is somewhat of a blend of uh English tutor with the uh with the boards and the uh stucco infill um and uh they also have some there's a mix of different materials some some Stone some brick uh so we we use that as kind of a um uh an inspiration uh setting for this building so again we've added these steeply pitched roofs uh that emulate what we see in L Lake Mohawk area uh we've broken up the building we have very uh significant vertical Elements which break up the long 230t facade uh on a vertical uh um in terms of the vertical breakups we have uh railings at the at these balconies that help break up the horizontals uh or the vertical elements as well we've added uh significant uh um uh motifs or elements features uh these Sunburst pediments shutters um uh Louver type uh uh features at the peaks of these buildings some dental molding in the cornice um we've added grills to the windows again to make it look uh make it look more traditional as opposed to contemporary uh we have again significant amount of um features uh these archways with trim work that enhance the look of them uh railings with uh bow uh on tops bows on tops of on top of the balls uh we have the um the bottom we have uh in some areas some Stone rustication uh which is very typical of uh uh ancient buildings you have a rusticated base and then from there you uh move upwards uh so we we feel we really uh change the look of this facade Al in addition uh the coloring that is on the facade will continue all the way around the building the the Grays and the the lighter gray if that's if I'm getting the colors even correct that that's correct they a warm gray uh Tex T color Hue but the uh just so that we're clear we're not going to have the finra that are there with the Peaks on the sides that is correct uh as Mr uh Mr Burton testified the only uh elevation that can be seen from anywhere uh is this elevation here the front facade of the building and there it'll be visible from some from uh some tow houses that are across the valley um the uh this side of the building nobody will ever see this side of the building um you can see as you drive up the driveway the back side of the building we're looking at Woods there's no there's no view of that building from anywhere and just a clarification uh Mr Burton did speak about the parit wall the uh unit the uh split units on the roof uh two questions will you see the split units and number two how many are there uh the split units uh are not will not be seen uh we have a parit wall that goes above the roof line that parit wall is approximately 3 ft High the units are about 36 to 39 in when you're down below you're looking up you're looking over that parit these units are not near the parit they're more Central to the middle of the building the building is 55 ft deep so they're in the middle third of that 55 ft um and I know there was a question about noise these units are are very Hightech units the fans are very quiet uh I did a building uh where we had a rooftop pool and 25 ft away uh where we had the rooftop units you couldn't hear them from 25 ft away and this was during the summer when um you know if not all of the units were running most of the units are running and again there is State Statute that uh limits the amount of noise that can be produced and that will be adhered to I have no further questions for Mr DOI Mr chairman okay so uh cathine why don't we start with you this time terms of questions and we'll go to Dave next sure um thank you for the presentation can you confirm is that a a flat roof still it's a what's considered a flat roof it's a very low pitch just to get the water to run to the roof drains which are located in the center of the 55 ft so effectively the other facade treatment like the what is on this front facade the interior facade to the parking lot um the features there are just they're decorative pitches that is correct um well they they project out over the balcon over so they're small roofs over the balcony yes that's correct the other elevations um around the building would appear to be flat if you could see if you can see them no we have hip roofs on those there there are uh they're peaked but they're three-sided like um consider a pyramid where you cut off the upper half of it it's a hip roof there top of those balconies on the other on the other elevation yes I think you have a uh rendering of um that was submitted previously last month oh okay so why don't you pull that out Mr DOI and go over that because yeah El sorry you have I think you have this rendering that was submitted last time MH but don't you have a don't is it the same as your as your prior uh architectural elevation on your plan okay it's um you're you're saying that there's a hip roof over over the balconies but but it it's a gable roof I'm sorry okay a gable roof over the balconies yeah and this is this is Page A1 with the latest revision date of being 123 2024 A1 revision date revision number four2 2024 I know we submitted those so put that put that up on the on the uh diesel if you would please and and let's go like I I have to say it's a little unusual to get a I'm pretty sure the design standard requires you to use the same materials on all four sides of a building like this um and and I respect that you're to some extent you you might want the facade front facade to be embellished something more than the side and rear facade but quite frankly they're not even the same materials they're not even the same color from what I can tell they're not the same color colins you're stealing my comments well please go ahead I I like to get to the point of things so especially will be the same colors they are similar materials we're talking about stucco and brick and we have that on the front elevation as well yeah but we have Gable roofs on the front elevation they're not as steeply pitched they are Arch toop uh on the Gable roofs so just clarify for me the the elevations from the fourth revision 12224 your the the the proposal is to change the front elevation what was presented tonight in the color rendering and keep this architectural style elsewhere that is correct I I couldn't disagree with that approach more I could I I I am in I mean my supplemental review included comments to say all four elevations of the building should have the same architectural treatment the same quality of materials and I I could not imagine two diff two more different treatments being added to this building I appreciate that the effort was made to redesign the front but I do think that an effort should be made to try and match those treatments not necessarily you know gabled balconies and things like that and and covered balconies because those sides don't have balconies but there needs to be some level of you know design F functionality and consistency this is our proposal thank you um as beyond beyond the um the outside facade design um did you have a chance to review any of the comments related to the interior programming of the building yes and I just testified that along with my client we develop those Community rooms and that exercise room they are very satisfied they feel that they are very functional for the use okay thank you I have no further comments I I did um Mr toi uh where's the stone on the rear side and we have we show brick right now I I noticed that right you don't you don't show Stone I'm not sure the brick is the same brick as the I don't I I even see Brick on the front facade do you see Brick on the front facade uh on the lower base it's kind of hidden by the shrubs I see the stone and I think it's a good idea and I but I don't understand why the stone doesn't carry around to the sides probably a faux a faux stone material right but but then it doesn't but then there's no brick above it is there clabber I presume it's hard Hardy board or something like that clabber stucko up above they stuck up above the stone why are there lines that go horizontally it's not it's not acceptable okay we could agree I I think I think we need to see I I think what you we I think you're getting closer with the front facade and but I'm I'm not even vote they vote and you got to get five out of nine to vote Yes but I don't think there's any doubt that the Town Center design standards uh in the ordinance which reference a master plan which reference pictures which reference P pitched roofs means you got to do better on the whole appearance of a what appears what is is going to be a flat relatively flat roof in the be in the middle of the building but somehow you have to do something with your edges to make the roof of the building look pitched from all four sides that's a requirement in the ordinance and there are pictures in the master plan that help elaborate on that but it's a requirement so you've done something to help with the with your pitches over the over the balconies but you're not carrying it through to the rear side I mean they couldn't be too different I mean you look at the rear side on your drawing get it you it's a Gable I don't you're not even keeping the same pitch you're using different balls I think you're using brick where you're not using brick on the front which I I don't I think you got to do better is what I would say and I think you can like an example of a building that has a flat roof but has a facade that appears to be a Pitch is the sparta I think it's 85 Sparta Avenue it's the it's the Medical Arts Plaza it was built by a hospital the Atlantic Health System Hospital it has copper faux copper as a way to pitch the very portion that you're saying will just be a straight up and down um parit to hide that there's a flat roof on what in its case is probably much wider than 55 ft it might be 100 ft and you can't tell from the road what's hidden behind that bow pitch this is flat across the whole length of 100 200 was it 220 ft and 55 ft in both directions that is not carrying out the requirement of the ordinance that town center design standards in the ordinance require pitch appearance now there must be some way for you to truly Revis these drawings to be a little bit closer to the appearance of this from facade on all fource facades but I when I look at your drawing I see horizontal lines that look like clap bir you're not proposing clap bir on this drawing I think I could now answer that Mr Collins I just spoke to the client the materials will carry around the four sides of the buildings but those I guess the uh protruding finestra will not so the stone the plank the stucco will continue okay and isn't this color more of a beige than it is gray I I don't know how I I'm very good with color and to me that looks like beige yeah so whatever you have a combination of both but do you I mean I don't I don't see gray I I I'm I think I'm really good at this okay this is what this is one of the things I happen to be very good at is color the intention is uh warm warm Grays around all five four sides of the building some dark ones towards the bottom and lighter colors towards the top but but this this picture is your picture I mean it I get it that but I didn't print that printer printed it from your diagram what even the one you put up today looks beige which I think would be more in keeping with the character like you're you're fighting over gray I I don't see any stucko on if the preference is beige I think it is I think it's more much more so than than gray we'll go with beige okay if that's if that's the board's uh that I see beige I don't know I saw yellow and then decided it's not yellow because it's not Wier [Laughter] looking okay so look there's I get there's and not that's only one idea but the but the point is you're your very better much better A1 is very different than your February 22 I'm sorry January 22 uh uh elevation in graphic so I think we I don't know I'll defer to the board what they how they want to step forward with that subject you know just hearing the the discussion you know when I look at the materials we have I'm not sure the materials really reflect what's being proposed because I'm hearing well it's really this not that this not that and it doesn't show this but it will do this I think you know the last time that you folks were here you you you promised that we get um colorized version of of all four elevations and I think we need that to see what it is you're proposing does anybody on the board disagree or anything that you you'd like to add that I'd like to see collab collaborate on all four sides I I I get it that you're going to not be as fancy on the sides and the back I understand that um because you're putting a lot into the front there but I think it has to continue the theme you know as far as the the cabber and the stone uh all the way around the building and and that is in the I'm looking for it in in the ordinance it actually does say it it has to be consistent on all four sides let me see if I can find it I I I just want to I do appreciate the work in the front I think it's come a long long way when I first saw this you know it's yeah it's a big difference from what we saw originally I would do want to say that I appreciate it yeah so so when I read from the ordinance it reads the entire front sides and rear of the building shall be coordinated and compatible colors of materials I if I may Mr chairman I think we're sick of seeing each other uh but my client made a suggestion is that perhaps if we can complete if that's a condition of approval we can certainly deal with that uh I would also agree to withhold uh or extend time for a resolution if necessary so we could provide that because the intention is pretty much along the lines that I heard from uh Mr rad that the coloring and some sort of design element will be incorporated on all four sides you know the front will stay as the front the coloring will continue the materials will continue and we'll see what design element we could add but I think that's what you're asking for they're willing to do so so are you suggesting that you'll give that to us prior to an approval or as a condition of approval but I would also provide it prior to the adoption of any resolution so so the concern I have there I'm going to look to our professionals to help me out here is you know it just seems like there's room for misunderstanding there um we'd like to see what it is that's being proposed so we can have a clear view of what it is that we're either approving or not approving so I really would like to see the four elevations um in the final design so let me ask this question before I consult with the client when is your next meeting so uh let's let's just talk so with the next meeting we we we're committed um what do we have after that dor April 17th May May 1st May 15 17th May 1st and so if we if we we could slide them in on the 17th is that still open or is it technically but it's hard we a little uncertainty but we can try so what about the 1 May 1 is may be more realistic also you should really do the drawings and get them in at least 10 days before the meeting yeah I agree I agree with that you know that's that was part of our discussion tonight we're going to have is give everyone a chance to properly review them so I I have no problem doing getting the drawings in before April 17th because it's a revised rendering but I would also suggest because we have certain time constraints and again I still need to consult with my client but you know I look at returning and not spending a significant period of time you either like the drawings or you don't well also have a few other issues to work through still right um there's a conversation around going and looking at the property for Wetlands right there's the um amenity space I'm not sure if we finalized that conversation I think for where we are Mr BL blumetti tonight is that the amenity space is as it is the wetlands I will be able to address I you know I have no problem having the consultant look at it but that's money for my client also the sidewalk and the steps down to the sidewalk and the uh proof that the larger fire truck can fit on the uh curve I think the curve of the uh internal Parkway parking lot curves not the not the driveway you've proven that um my suggestion we still we do really need to open to the public understand and but the the other suggestion is is I think those the sidewalk and the fir Tru turning movement or more technical in nature I do not intend to bring Mr Burton back I think we could submit a revised drawing with that information I guess you could try that Mr Mr Simmons was satisfied that would probably I because there's not a lot to do it's a turning movement and just the lo location of the of an additional sidewalk but how about the uh Wetlands isn't Mr Burton going to be the person who says his Wetland consultant that a looky we're we're not going to have that done prior to the next me okay why not how hard is that well I mean I don't mean I don't mean an Loi from the DP I mean I understand I mean but you know Mr Burton can certainly submit a letter somebody looked at it and that there were no visible appearance of any Wetland you know uh plants okay including adjacent properties that don't have a buffer that transfers onto your property that I don't know saying that's why I'm bringing it up I think you may need a witness I'm just I'm not I'll defer to you how you want to deal with that but that I don't know if that is part of your your ordinance it is a it is a customary part we some we sometimes make it a condition of approval and maybe that's appropriate but the but the uh but the way to solve it one way to solve it and not have to do a presence absence is for a qualified Wetland consultant to actually do the observation and present a report that says that there are no Wetlands on the property or within the buffer area give be two minutes for like pictures think we will be back April 17th we'll provide the rendering I will speak to Mr Collins about the wetlands consultant uh offline uh we will certainly provide everything that we're going to resubmit 10 days in advance we would request that we be carried to April 17th without further notice and we will provide the extension of time for the board to act thank you thank you so we'll carry the um plus Holdings application to April 17th 2024 at 7 p.m. and there'll be no further notice thank you gentlemen thank you gentlemen thank you gentlemen appreciate it no public comment at April 17th public comment that's done with my environmental report right get back to the [Music] agenda yeah okay um so if we can I'm going to uh move down to the next section okay going to move to the next SE uh section which is other board business so um we had uh at the last meeting talked about the possibility of um having a resolution to uh enter into a Professional Services agreement for a traffic engineering consultant um it's been a lot of public feedback um that they wanted to see more focus on understanding the impact of some of the traffic uh impacts of the development so this is our answer to the public that we've heard you and yes we're we we're taking these steps um so the resolution would offer would would enable us to sign that contract so I guess the next thing would be is if everyone's read it to see if anybody wants to make a motion to adopt the resolution I'll make a motion to adopt the resolution okay for the um Professional Services agreement uh Nea would uh neg um Tom the resolution is do we need a number no no okay but if Dory wants to give it one she can dor could you just uh just so we can keep track of the different resolutions I know the first couple we did earlier in the year had some numbers yes we can do that thank you um right any anybody like to second the motion I'll second it okay okay there any comments from anyone in dice I'm looking in both directions I have a couple questions um the first one is around just understanding clearly what the use cases are for this so in what scenarios would we engage uh this consultant to perform traffic studies and you know I'm thinking in some cases we get an application that already has a traffic study done so is one scenario where we would ask this consultant to review and validate that yes yes yes it's more primarily what they do okay okay the other one is where we get an application doesn't have one but we want one done well then we have then we have the applicant do one R right okay so they would evaluate the traffic study the same way that Katherine and Dave evaluate the other information we get from the applicants okay okay the um I just noticed too in the resolution um comparing it to the Town Council resolutions typically there's a conflicts of interest clause in there or a political contribution one this is a this is a takeoff directly from the council's form of resolution and form of agreement okay and and the actual agreement will have that language in it yes it has it has it in it and it does it it uses the township council's version so I I saw the I didn't see it in the resolution I saw it in the PSA yeah that's where it goes okay resolution approves the PSA and the PSA is incorporated I'm sorry the agreement is incorporated into the resolution okay in in the Article 15 in the PSA it references um contributions to planning board it's all planning board Centric I didn't read it as they also signed they signed the um Dory can confirm but they signed the pay to play affidavit that uh confirms that they've made no contributions to any elected officials okay that was my question that's it it still has that as well but it's in the paperwork attached to the uh oh to the agreement okay I just want to make sure it's extended to all the council elected officials everybody okay that's that's really who it applies to okay and you'll decide on a case-by casee basis whether you're retaining a this whether you're asking them to review a set of plans and a report okay so it won't be every you you it would not be needed for every application yeah the intent was right now Mr Simmons does a lot of these for us um so on the larger applications or maybe on the more sensive applications that's where we would trigger these people to come in and help us okay okay that's all I have so the roll call I think we had a motion second and we need a roll call Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes Janette Burke yes Christine Dunbar yes Vice chairman Bill enr yes Justin canel yes celest Luciano yes Nick Pomo sorry yes Ernie rad yes chairman Ronde yes okay motion is passed okay thank you everybody and again special thanks to uh to Ernie and Mike Sylvester I know you did a lot of leg work to help get us to this point so and to Mr Collins as well thank you you thank the three of you very much um let's see what else we got Dave do you want to just spend a few minutes just to give us a I know you you brought something I think people would like you to see just a quick update on the maps sure Mr chairman board members do have to stand up this map is bigger my arms only go so far the Fells at the office what on the zoning M and basically we enlarged the sheet so it was a little more graph friendly for everyone and we included some inserts there's an insert here on the upper left that basically has the delineation of the township and it also has a delineation on it between the highlands preservation area and the planting area so it's a little more friendly far as looking at finding what property is in what area then over by Tom's hand We've Got U the color coating and we also added some labels the existing zoney map uh was a good map and it had a lot of different colors on it sometimes the colors were a little tough to distinguish so we put some labels on there so there's no question about it uh in this little insert right here it's kind of a unique area it's North Village and that's the area where all the different transects are so we figured that'd be a good thing to have some information on when somebody's looking at that particular area so we labeled all that involved and then on the upper right we've got the key map for the overall area where it is so it's getting just about there but again between the bigger sizes and some of the insert Maps we thought it would be a lot more helpful and user friendly to the board members and the planning department itself so that's a quick update very much appreciated that's awesome everybody that's awesome okay anybody have any questions or comments okay the just the final step would be well once it's finalized it'll then be put online is that the uh idea of it or sure this is all in GIS yeah so it can be adapted that way not a problem okay okay it's great just a quick up all right thank you very much a lot of good work and we really really appreciate it so before we go on to updates let me just check does anybody have any other board business that you'd like to bring up that has not been brought up nothing down here how about this side okay all right why don't we do uh the the updates if we could and Deputy Mayor blumetti yep uh keep it really short and sweet so two items um a meeting or two ago we passed uh ordinance 242 which was just regarding um lead based paint Hazard inspections uh requirements for rental units which just kind of relevant to what we do here any the other one just uh most of you know that we've been having conversations about short-term rentals um receiving public input in many forums uh especially at the council meetings and uh doing some more legal review and considerations on that but we're looking to revisit that again soon and and get something uh out there as an ordinance uh in the real near future given the Summer Rental Seasons coming up that's it thank you okay thank you okay environmental Commission yes thank you um we have begun our planning our first planning for our open space Recreation plan we've had our first sort of informal meeting and we're organizing ourselves and we're Gathering materials and documents that we need to proceed um uh there will I think I mentioned last time there'll be four um uh meetings and at least two of those will require public input and um the it is the I think the focus of our group to look at our open space with um with Green Acres uh purchases in mind so we're looking for that and um we also need to work very closely at some point with the master plan committee because one of the things uh that we'd like to do is to incorporate what we find into the master plan so that we'll be working towards that and then the the sad thing is is that our environmental commission rain barrel event is going to be cancelled because or postponed until the 13th of April because of the rain 85% rain can you IM how ironic is that right so we can't make the rain bars out there because it's going to rain but they'll be doing it on the 13th hopefully the weather will be nice yeah okay anything else no that's it thank you all right I'll just do a quick thing on a couple subcommittees uh master plan subcommittee we are meeting tomorrow night having our our second meeting plan endorsement advisory committee so I just want to take a moment just to again remind folks that at our next planning board meeting um April 3rd April 3rd meeting we're going to be devoting that primarily to um a discussion on the plan endorsement process what's it about why you know um why is it good for the town and just these are the things that we need to go through to get there so um this is this is one of our uh this is one of our public sessions so we hope to get a lot of folks on the public come out um ask questions and just understand the process and and see the benefit that we'll get from it so hope to see a lot of people there uh and that is a joint meeting with with the plan endorsement advisory committee thank you and it will be noticed and it will we encourage Jen and newspapers to publish the press release that Dory will send out okay and minor I plan subcommittee so I have I I have set down as deleted that and Mr Enright is taking that over so Mr Enright would you like to get the update um yeah we usually meet uh for an hour before this meeting we did not do that this week because we had another subcommittee meeting that um didn't take precedent but just scheduling conflict so uh we did accomplish a few approvals over email um and we also are going to implement a new form to give any applicants so that they have a time frame in a window with dates on it date received of application date for an expected um two dates of an expected window between two and four weeks uh Dory and re have doing a great job of of trying to uh communicate the window of uh expected response and we think this is going to be another step to help them do that um but yeah we have a couple more to knock down but uh we're pretty much staying within that two to four week window deadline okay would you like to give an update on the grant uh the working group Bill microphone you know it's funny I got two signs in front of me one says speak directly in front of the mic and the other one says don't touch the mic so I don't know which one to listen uh the grant committee met tonight for the first time um the the members on that committee are are Justin uh Janette and Celeste and Katherine also is going to be intrumental in in helping us she already made some recommendations on some of the other uh grants that she's familiar with from some of our other clients the goal is to identify one or three grants to use for um our Municipal planning and and some of the costs that are associated with that um we've identified a few already and we should have an update on how many and which ones we're going to go after um in about a month great job great kickoff thank you anybody have any questions on the sub committee reports okay so now we're we're down to the next section which is to open up to the public for matters not on the agenda and matters not relating to a hearing on an application for development so would anybody from the public like to come up to the microphone hi Mark Mark Scott n p Parkway um I just want to thank you all for you know really tonight was probably the best night I've ever seen the planning board in action it was just a great night Tom Collins was there you guys really held on this guy was going to push us around it's our town and I really appreciate what you did for our town tonight all four sides of that building they have to look Lake Mohawk tutor like um because you know I mean the guy said oh this side really doesn't matter but this side does matter this is this this is the bypass here and millions of people go that way and you know they should you could again so now we're getting to now we're anyway thanks a lot for all your help thank you though much appreciated credit when it's Jenny Jenny DK I want to thank um for the maps and the minutes um I just had a question about the maps will it include an designation or a notation about what property is owned by the township that's been a question that's been coming up and I anticipate that it'll continue to come up not just by there is there is a Zone on there I believe open space and government owned or words to that effect okay so that may address a lot of what you're referring to I appreciate that thank you um will we be able to get an update on what the once there once it's synthesized and we have an understanding an update on what the COA new COA rules mean um do we expect to yes but uh the statute was I know according to the newspaper according to the TV the governor signed a statute called A4 and S 50 today um is no longer any COA which probably pleases some people but in my view is probably a big mistake uh they basically their role is taken over by the Department of Community Affairs and some unusual arrangements with the courts so it bottom line is the answer to the N question of when the number will be known is not clear it will be take months because the DCA will use the Jacobson formula to allocate a number to each municipality except the uh cities and it probably will take at least six months some estimates will be made um and we'll probably be having meetings with the board and Katherine to go over uh the need to well the requirements of the statute and the benefit of getting a compliance approval from the system the new system so the good questions Jen but the answers are to be determined yeah I didn't expect an answer I was just hoping maybe at some point we would get one um the DP hearing is there any um for May 20th don't have anything to do with nothing to do with that okay and then uh finally just a general question how would I find I I've been looking for the easements that have been referenced in in an ongoing application I have not been able to find any at the county it is a checklist item could somebody tell me where or how I could find it in general that's where where it's a checklist item where would an easement that an applicant insists that they have where would that be found I can't find it at the county sometimes on a particular piece of property just in general uh the applicant might have to provide a title search and in that title search it would show up if there's any easements of record but you would have that because it is a checklist item for a complete application if an applicant has come to this this body saying that they have a complete application that the this body would have that document if there are any easements on the property yes okay sometimes sometimes there are documents that don't make it to the clerk's office office not intentionally but it just if there was supposed to be right away dedication or an easement uh sometimes I've seen it doing surveys where it's just not recorded it was talked about in an application but it never made it to the county clerk's office for whatever reason something that might have slipped through the cracks and that's something that this body if that happened this and and the applicant was relying on that element of their application or of the site plan that's something that this body would have access to or could ask for if it's a condition of a resolution of approval yes okay probably has to be an easement related to that piece of property too not next door in some cases right if it's being testified that there is an easement related to an application yeah it's related this body would have access to that easement not necessarily you would just take it on good faith that there isn't easy no so because this this this board would wrap that up as what Dave just mentioned about resolution compliance is necessary so if it was an approval and they testified that their plans showed an access easement or a sewer easen or whatever when they go through resolution compliance before they're able to get their building permits they'd have to show some copy of that and and the reason why you know it's probably far and few in between where it slips through the cracks but a reason why that access seas in or that driveway whatever it is isn't alive yet isn't filed is if the application didn't move forward but if it was built constructed and it and it doesn't exist um then that's a problem one that's been referenced to have existed for decades so you can find it usually on the survey the thebook and page is usually referenced on the survey it don't it won't just say easement and then show the area of the easement it'll normally say on the survey if the survey did their job access easement recorded did date deed book page in the county of Sussex okay so if there is a survey for the property that's likely going to be your your one place you can find the information about how to search for it and you can usually search for it online with the deed book and stuff through suss County Land records thank you I appreciate your help with that okay are there any other question questions from the public comments okay so at this time um I think we we'll get ready to move into um executive session but before we do uh on behalf of the board I know we've kept people here late tonight so I'd like to thank everybody who stayed in and asked questions and participated in the meeting with us um and again as well as those people who may have been watched from home so um thank you thank you very much and uh wish you guys all a safe to your palm thank you thank you okay may I get a motion on Mr Collins it would be a motion to approve the resolution that you have before you which is providing for a motion to go into close session pursuant to sections s and 8 of the open public meetings act I do not believe we will be doing anything in open session after you have the closed session so people may stay but there's no reason to there's nothing going to happen other than a German I think and uh I hope it's less than a half an hour um but I can't promise any anything so um the motion is to go into close session pursuing to section 7 and 8 of the open public meetings act to discuss matters of pending litig litigation Diamond chip realy versus Sparta planning board and a non Dash versus Sparta Township zoning board and attorney clim privilege communication the matters to be revealed to the public upon the completion of all litigation and appeals and the removal of the need for confidentiality is there such a motion I'll make a motion and a roll call please call please Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes nette Burke yes Christine Dunbar yes Vice chairman Bill enr yes Justin Canalis yes SL Luciano yes Nick pompilio yes Ernie ragad yes chairman Ronde yes no action is needed after thank you good night you good night e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay um would anybody like to make a motion to go back into open public session we'll make a motion have a second second I'll second roll call please Deputy uh mayor Dean blumetti yes Janette Burke yes Christine Dunbar yes Vice chairman Bill enri yes Justin caneles yes celest Luciano yes Nick pomilio yes Ernie rad yes chairman Ronde yes all right the motion is passed we V open concession so again to the whole team T I thank you very much for everything you guys did a great job a lot of great contributions all the way up and down the line here so many thanks so with that um anybody unless anybody has any other comments me check close out checking in both directions but anybody like to make a motion to adjourn I'll make a motion to adjourn I'll second all in favor all in favor hi you sayy Ernie you're on