##VIDEO ID:_W5Z3AHFpoo## all right good evening everybody and on behalf of the members of the board and our professionals we'd like to welcome everyone to tonight's meeting of the sparta Township planning board this meeting is now called to order for the record this meeting is being held on August 7th 2024 at the sparta Township Municipal Building located at 65 Main Street Sparta New Jersey the time is now 7:04 the live stream for this meeting may be viewed on YouTube at www.youtube.com spart Township Township being TW WP please note the adequate public me notice of this meeting was provided in accordance with the open public meeting act I ask everyone please stand and join our board and our professionals as we proudly begin this meeting with a salute to our nation's flag I pledge Alle Al to flag United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God divisible with liy and justice for all all right thank you everybody uh Miss Fox could we please get the roll call Justin canel here Ernie rad here Christine Dunbar Mike Sylvester Vice chairman Bill Enright chairman Ronde here Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti here Joan Ferman here Janette bur here celest Luciano here Brian Zimmerman here all right thank you everybody all right we've got a lot on the agenda tonight we're going to we're going to do our best to get through it and hopefully we'll be successful um why don't we start the next item would be the approval of minutes so we actually have uh five sets of planning board minutes and one uh set of U monite plan subcommittee minutes which I believe that everyone should have in their packets so um what I'd like to do let's take each set of the minutes motion it for purposes of a vote or invite board member comments and then we'll have a roll call vote so let me start with September 6 2023 uh would somebody like like to make a motion to approve the minutes of September 6th 2023 I motion that we approve the minutes from September 6th 2023 I have a second anybody second a second thank you okay um so before we going to vote just want to see if anyone has any comments any comments from anybody okay with that can we get a roll call councilman Dean blumetti yes Janette B yes Ron day yes Justin canel yes Lu yes okay moving on to the next set of minutes um I have a motion to approve the minutes of October 4th 20 2023 I motion that we approve the minutes from October 4th 2023 I'll second roll call please councilman Dean blumetti yes Janette Burke yes Ronde yes Justin caneles yes Ernie R yes all right moving on to the next set of minutes I have a motion to approve the minutes of October 18th 2023 I move that we approve the minutes for October 18th 2023 I'll second s councilman Dean bti yes Janette Burke yes Ron day yes canel yes celest luano yes Ernie R yes right the minutes of October 18th are approved um may have a motion to approve the minutes of November 1 1st 2023 I make a motion we approve the minutes for uh November 1st 2023 I'll second okay any any discussion okay I just have a couple quick comments on this one I think when we look at the members of the site plan I'm sorry the master plan committee um I just we can just check I think Allison we had is Allison brck um should be Allison jeene and uh Christy White House's name and uh Brian romanis I believe were misspell minor changes but I think we could we could uh move to to go forward based on on those changes Tom do we need to to remotion or is that okay that's fine okay good well yes Dean made the motion so Dean and Janette I guess made the motion in second so they accept de you accept those changes yeah I I uh make a motion to approve them as amended now second councilman Dean buetti yes Janette Burke yes Ronde yes Justin canel yes Les Luciano yes Ernie rste yes okay may have a motion to approve the minutes of July 17th 2024 I'll make a motion to approve I'll second okay and just just a little bit of discussion um I'll let everyone go before and before before I go here has anyone's got any comments All right so so just and in in general um we've and we've talked about this in the past I want to get the other ones out of the way because they're old and I understand we got to get those get those done and put something forward but but again when I look at the transcripts here um I'd like to see shorter versions you know I think we got when I look at all the five here that we looked at with the transcript that was over over five over 600 pages of stuff to to read now I understand that I believe the expectation is if they're done by a certified transcriber that we don't have the same have to review them all word for word with that that due diligence so um and we can rely on the accuracy so I believe is that the case and if if I'm wrong someone please correct me no that's that's correct Mr chairman okay great thanks so um so I'd like to go forward with these but I'd like to at least I still would like to see shorter versions I don't know what the intent is going forward if this is going to be the standard practice to uh it is all so this going to be the standard practice and you can't shorten them because they're literally verbatim word for word that I understand if it's done by U transcribe it but when I look at the M of the other councils and the other uh and the other um boards I don't see them attaching the transcript so again I don't want to stop these tonight but I would like to leave the door open to have fur disc discussion down the road on on these in an effort to get out all the backlog done we we have hired actually two transcription services that are going to hopefully continue to do them for the future as well so that we can stay qu up I I understand I'm just leaving the the door open to have further discussion okay so um let me just ask a question then are we approving the transcript sort because this was on the table today it says minutes July 17th or are we approving this you're approving the entire thing but I just didn't want to waste a tree and give everybody this entire package here and she had called me and asked that transcripts were in that Google drive to read through so I only gave you the cover letter because of that this is just a lot of paper okay so I think we've got a motion and we got a second I'm not changing anything so unless anybody else have any comments okay can we get a roll call please Dustin Canalis yes Ernie rad yes uh chairman Ronde yes Joan Ferman yes Janette Burke yes celesto yes and Brian Zimmerman yes all right the minutes from July 17th 2024 passed so also in the package is I is the minutes uh as a standalone set am minutes from the minor site plan uh subcommittee uh and it shows all the actions taken from January through uh I think it was June 17th um so unless anybody has any questions could I have a motion to approve these minutes I'll make a motion I'll seconds okay anybody have any comments roll call Deputy Mayor Dean blti yes Jette Burke yes D Ferman yes Justin caneles yes CES Luciano yes Bernie rad yes Brian zman yes chairman Ronde yes all right thank you okay so that gets us through all of the minutes uh the next section is going to be actually we're going to change things around a little bit tonight if we can I I uh we've got a lot we got to get in we have some time considerations we got to deal with so I'm going to move on to I'm going to skip over the section five for now we'll come back to that uh so I'd like to dive into other board business so does anybody have any other board business that you you'd like to bring up and and Mr Simmons Mr chairman of board members if you recall uh last month I did hand out A draft copy of the zoning map for everyone to look at I did bring another copy of it tonight I don't know if everybody has had a chance to go through it uh Mr Collins did give me uh some information that had to be corrected in one area where there was an ordinance pass changing some of the Lots on the Westerly side of 15 across from North Village which we'll take care of but if anyone else found any other uh Corrections revisions or what have you that are needed if you could let us know we can incorporate that in before we do the final matter okay so it sounds like you sounds like that they've made great progress on this and we're close to uh having a final version do you think or still more work to go yes awesome yeah that's great news thank you does anybody else have any other board other uh board business that you'd like to bring up okay okay seeing none that that gets us out of the the board business why don't we jump into the updates if we can so uh Town Council Deputy Mayor blumi thank you chairman I have a few updates from the last two Council meetings that would be June 25th and July 23rd I have four updates I wanted to share uh first a resolution was passed to establish a trail committee uh to promote the growth and expansion and the connectivity of the trail system system both within the township and to uh Trail systems outside of the township including rail Trails uh secondly ordinance 247 was passed and that will be very familiar to the board that was the parking design standards update uh it was introduced the meeting prior to that and it was passed um back on the 23rd so uh great work everyone took a while but it was uh was well done third uh ordinance 20 408 which was the ordinance to allocate funding for the master plan work uh we had a lengthy hearing on that and unfortunately that ordinance failed with a vote of 3 to one to one uh we are exploring additional options of how to proceed both in the short term and long term and finally there were two resolutions passed for road work both on Main Street and and Station Road uh one of them is 100 100% uh funded by a grant from the dot and the other is 50% funded by a grant from the dot and just lastly our our next meeting if you'd like to join is on Tuesday August 27th that concludes my report thank you thank you Deputy Mayor all right in terms of uh the environmental commission Miss dumbar is unable to attend tonight I'm sure we're all looking forward to her next update at uh the August 21st meeting um the master plan subcommittee um just an update on that so our last meeting was held on July 18th um the things that we did there was uh Katherine Samar led us through an overview of a draft web-based Community Hub uh and that's going to contain information on the master plan as well as a proposed Community survey um Katherine will walk us through a Gant chart that talked about the steps and the processes that we'll be going through um that's something that the the Town Council was was look looking for um and I do want to take a moment to compliment both Mard and and Deputy Mayor U blumetti um because that at the meeting even though it was turned down I think they did a phenomenal job representing the planning board and what our thoughts were um and so I want to thank them for that um also at that meeting um Celestial led a discussion on messaging that's going to be contained within the community Hub Jennifer dere's let a discussion on key stakeholders so overall we've got a really great subc commmittee team and you know what I like we have our meetings I think everybody contributes to the conversations debates that we have um so just a a real good meeting and our next meeting is scheduled for this coming Monday on August 12th uh the next sub uh next committee uh P so uh my understanding is the P committee is on hold while they assess what's going on with the state plan um and we'll provide updates once they start up again anybody else have anything you want to add to that okay all right in terms of the minor site plan uh subcommittee so Bill Enright is unable to attend tonight as well Bill chairs the subcommittee so I'll give you a quick response on a quick update on his behalf so we typically meet in person on the same night as the planning board meetings being that we uh I think three of the five members were unable to meet tonight so we proactively got together last week and try to get ahead of things and so we met last uh I think was Thursday um so the result of that was tonight's um tonight's meeting we did provide the minutes we we worked through some um some final changes we had to make there and uh and I we we we continue to meet at the the next planing board meeting but we do have discussions uh in between now and then both uh you know usually typically by by a phone or some emails so that concludes the updates does anybody have anything that they'd like to update on that I missed okay live oh oh the a live stream I I think the the network was down I I had trouble getting on before so I don't know if that's I think it is a network issue that it's on on my side am sure active too yeah yeah yeah what don't we do is let's let's get through the resolutions and we'll see if it comes up between now and then if may be we can take a 5 minute break or something like that just to maybe have if panel can look at it or or whatever all right so resolutions um so once again I think we have uh was it three resolutions there we go yes um so let's take each one separately have a motion for vote ask for board comments and have a roll call so the first resolution is let me go through it here okay um resolution 2411 uh which is uh planing board application 708 flu Holdings LLC um and this resolution is to approve the application so I have a motion to approve that resolution I'll make a motion to approve that resolution I have a second I'll second roll call um com oh I'm sorry comments thank you J thank you all right I just um had some comments on this when we went over the condition conditions um at the end of the meeting there were there was a condition for affordable housing and one for um sales and also for four more D Dormers now I know they are referenced back to the application but if somebody were to look at this 5 years from now they wouldn't know what it was or how to find the application so I my personal feeling is that that should be part of the conditions that are in the um resolution good idea John so we can add that to the resolution and it's basically what you just said there shall be U four six affordable housing rental housing units and six for sale um Market units um and there shall be four more Dormers added to the uh side of the building facing 517 they'll be added thank you okay uh I have two points one is very similar uh the affordable housing I did see a reference on the bottom of page 13 um that that's before the therefore be it resolve section uh it wasn't crystal clear to me that it was spelled out that it was six rentals and six for sale yeah so add that as a condition that is technically also the ordinance requirement as well so okay and then the other the other point is I don't think I saw it in here and maybe it's reflected there's a reference to Mr Simmons your series of reports about The the applicant had agreed to plant additional evergreen trees around the site not not necessarily within the parking area that was separate but also around the building around the site I don't recall if Mr Simmons if that's included by reference in your reports or if that's something that needs to be specified separately I would say that's included by reference to our report because in our report there is a landscaping session section okay okay okay that's all I have thank you anybody else have comments All right so I guess we have to um modify the motion I'll modify the motion to include oh you're doing it go ahead we already said was so the people made the motion and the second person made the motion and second to confirm that they accept those changes I confirm I I confirm as well yes Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes n Burke yes J Ferman yes celest Luciano yes rnie R yes chairman Ronde yes all right the motion to approve resolution 20241 has passed uh would anyone like to make a motion to approve resolution 202 24-12 will moralizing the denial of a request for an extension of time for application number 685 subed by saak Sparta LLC Captiva block 5019 Lot 23 in the TCC Zone yes I'd like to make a motion that we approve the resolution for planning board application 685 sax Sparta LLC Captiva living I'll second any comments from anybody okay Miss Fox roll call Mayor excuse me Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes Janette Burke yes Joan Ferman yes Le Luciano yes Bernie Ry yes chairman Ronde yes all right the motion to approve 242 24-12 is approved would anyone like to make a motion to approve resolution 24 -13 memorializing the approval of planning board uh site plan application uh PB 711 submitted by JP Morgan Chase Bank location of 27 Sparta Avenue block 5019 lot 17 in the TCC zone I'll make a motion to approve I'll second anybody have any comments or any discussion okay I think we're good for a roll call Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes Janette Burke yes Joan Ferman yes Ernie Rin yes chairman Ronde yes okay so uh the motion to approve resolution 2024 D13 is passed okay so that gets us back to the hearing which I think we need to give another five minutes before we can start that one so why don't we do this uh dor is there let me try Jen Jen is there any any update on whether or not the website is is up or not or yeah there's probably not much on my phone you got on your oh oh yeah yeah yeah so it's it's working I agree all right so let me do this if I can I you know we we we can't start this one till 7:30 so um let me just kind of set the table before we're going to go with it um so let me go back to my notes [Applause] there all right so we have uh three applications that we're going to to hear tonight um we're going to take them out of order from what was in the agenda the first one that we're going to hear will be Lakeland Bank the second one will be uh from Binger Corp and the third one will be in excuse me is Ram M and Company am I saying that correctly all right thank you okay so um relative to the first application um uh so Mr Collins myself are going to have to recuse or decided to recuse and so Mr Brady is going to step in and he'll he'll be the uh attorney of record for for this application and Cel luciana's offered to take the role of chairperson for this application so as I'll be recusing myself so why don't we let the record show that Mr colins and I recusing we be leaving the room and Mr Brady and uh Miss Luciano will be taking over uh for his application see dve do I need to move no you don't need to move thank you unless maybe it screws up something with dory's recording that that's designated the Chairman's mic or something no no I think I think I'm loud enough my voice carries and Celeste the um the notice in the paper indicated that tonight was going to start at 7:30 it was an error on the applicant's part that doesn't mean we can't hear the application but it does mean we have to wait another uh 4 minutes till 7:30 before we start it I think Will [Laughter] Survive can we do the section open to the public for doing Dave and although I will say that if anybody needs a recess Now's the Time going email myself so don't forget first half second half was three days food poison yeah I have the meeting on my phone too oh that's good and we said to my wife I said the last time best I can figure started on the way we were we like five seconds there's a 5 pretty but on the way home feel hor you're the car a couple hours started but that's temporary did you look at that he's probably right yeah that's what I figed but I wasn't going to sign off it sounds like numbers he's not here you're probably right I do remember orig got it would have been before you I think we're good okay assuming the Verizon signal to my phone is on [Laughter] time okay good started I guess we're can to have the applicant come up let's begin uh good evening my name is Anthony valenziano I'm attorney from Sherman Atlas Sylvester and stamman I represent the applicant Lakeland Bank yeah you need the microphone oh do I yes please can you hear me now uh yes can you hear me now yes perect okay so let's start from the beginning officially so this is application 711 I'm sorry 717 Lakeland Bank 7 Town Center Drive block 5020 lot one Township of Sparta and welcome thank you for being here thank you for having us uh again good evening my name is Anthony valenziano I'm an attorney from Sherman Alice Sylvester and staman I represent the applicant uh Lakeland Bank and to my right is Rudy baz a vice president of Lakeland Bank who will provide testimony concerning the application also with me is Dan Wen who is a uh project manager with Stratus unlimited who prepared the uh slide deck which uh shows the proposed signage who can also provide testimony concerning specifications of the sign that'll be put in okay so I presume we need to swear everyone El yep if if we're ready to start with testimony then we'll need to have your your witness raises right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and we just state your name for the record spell your last name and uh make sure you do it slowly so I can get it down in my notes certainly my name is Rudy bz last name BM boy aez AE z d okay and what what's your position with the bank and what's an address a business address is fine um I'm vice president of business services for facilities management and we're located at Milton operations center in Oakridge New Jersey okay which bank Provident or Lakeland I started with Lakeland and uh now converting to Provident okay go ahead good evening Mr viz um could you provide the board and the public an explanation of what the proposed uh replacement signage would be in relation to the current signage that is there absolutely well Lakeland has been part of the community for many years and we took a very mindful approach in our conversion project I'm heading over 60 locations uh for signage conversion and one of the things that we tried to do was to make sure that we had uh consistency throughout our portfolio and have uh the community in mind one of the things that we also did was work with our Stratus partner and under understanding what some of the conversion problems and issues may be and also we have a goal of having all of our signage unveiled for our conversion weekend which is Labor Day weekend so we worked closely with them coming up with a plan that has not only the signage Chang but also some coverings to uh continue using the Lakeland logo until our conversion date uh so part of our you know scope is looking at the community and we know that we've taken the approach of existing signs and converting them as closely as possible to the new Provident logos and more importantly taking a look at the community and understanding uh the various businesses within the areas and the usage of their signage and trying to make sure that we're in line with that uh for the most part the conversion process has gone uh extremely well we're on Target and we're hopeful that we can have your approval to continue to to uh install our signage here at the uh Sparta location with regard to the current sign that is there that's on the building um do you do you recall that the existing signage square footage is about 27.1 Square fet roughly yes all right and what would the proposed sign be in relation to that smaller I believe it's smaller and I need you to share the microphone I apologize oh sorry sorry it's forc to have it I believe the sign is is smaller than the proposed sign that's already existing and the proposed sign would be 23.4 ft if you recall correct and in terms of other differences between the current sign and the new sign could you explain what those would be uh besides the fact that the new sign would be smaller we've basically provided like for like signage so on the surface of the building it's pretty much the same type of Channel letters that installed currently under the Laken logo and then there's a number of smaller uh signage that's directional to our parking lot or if there is a situation where we need to highlight any type of area around the building uh but for the most part the main signage that we've uh proposed is on the building itself um with regard to the sign that's proposed there is going to be um back lighting for it um can you explain for the board and the public what that would entail in terms of what the backlighting would be and the timing it would be used we've taken a look at all the signage and we've used backlit um LED Channel letters for signage across our portfolio uh we also understand that there may be restrictions and we are mindful of that and we only intend on using the illuminated sign during our business hours and and right now we only are open till 6:00 p.m. on certain nights so that would be the latest that our signage would be illuminated and the back lighting would be white backlit lighting it's white LED lighting correct with regard to the temporary signage um the proposal has 11 temporary signs can you just explain for the board and the public what how long the temporary signage would be there and in addition what uh the signs that aren't on the building would entail of course for the most part the signage that we have with temporary vinyl as we're calling it is to uh block out the Provident logo that's already been installed and continue using the Lakeland logo until our conversion weekend conversion weekend the plan is as of August 30th to start unveiling all of those temporary vinyl signs the sign for the most part are directional for our parking lot uh for the entrances they're much smaller in scale and they're already existing as I mentioned previously our goal was to do as much likeforlike signage conversion as possible with regard to the larger temporary sign that will be on the building um the size of it can you explain why the the need for the sign to be that large certainly the sign on the building is basically a temporary Banner that's covering the existing graphic Channel letters that are installed in the that would be installed in the building so the vinyl that's being placed over it would be temporary only for a minimum we have 22 weeks we have a countdown going on so I think it would be less than uh the 20 days that it would be up and then we would uncover the actual Provident logo behind it I think you said 22 weeks you meant 22 days correct 22 days 22 days for the record sorry that's that's quite all right um in terms of the colors of the new sign that's going to be on the building uh how many proposed colors is it three it's three colors including the um what we call the Beehive logo okay um I have no further uh questions for this Witness okay I think we'll bring it up to the de actually you know what I'm sorry yeah sorry Joan Catherine does he have do you have any more witnesses are we going to hear all Witnesses first or do you want to do you have any questions of this particular witness oh I'm just curious if they're going to I mean I really only have questions related to the variance testimony so I I do have variance testimony or a planner or anything we there is no planner uh for this applic again it's just the L for like signage I mean Mr Bas could you know answer questions regarding the variance need if you have questions no I was just using that to make sure that if I had any questions that they'd be for him and not to be reserved for somebody else um go to Dave Dave first just make sure Dave do you have any questions to this witness uh madam chair and board members just referring to the report I did dated May 20th 2024 uh I believe as I listened to the testimony from the applicant they basically addressed most of the items that I had listed uh the only thing I would add just so it's clear on my comment 9 C I said sign Pages 15 to 26 of the package it was submitted deal with interior signage Andor removal and are not part of the exterior signage updates I didn't really comment on that because Excuse excuse me excuse me because it's part of the Interior work not visible from the exterior of the building other than that and getting approval from the township construction official for the necessary permits for the sign work they basically addressed all the questions that I had listed in my report that needed comment from the applicant any questions members of the board I have some actually yeah thank you U so you mentioned just for terminology sake you were referencing I think most of the time to the large the largest sign on the building correct yes correct okay and you mentioned back lit LED white LED lighting uh is that the equivalent of internally illuminated I think for the purposes of the stat for the ordinance it would be that's why we're seeking a variance um and you know again to just piggyback off the Mr B's comments given the the location of the building where it is located on kind of a major throughway and where it sits you know December 30th when it's 4:30 and the branch is still open it's much easier I think to see and I think that's been why Mr Bas commented on the their Trend through the branches when they're installing new signs is to have the backlit so that the community can see it from you know a major roadway and again as as Mr Bas commented it would only be on during business hours how would you describe the visual difference between the proposed sign and the existing in Lakeland Bank sign terms of lighting brightness the current sign is not back lit at Lakeland um it's just Channel block letters in the teal if I use the right color uh the new one would be effectively white uh with backl backlit being back lit during business hours and orange uh I believe that it's a Pantone color I do not remember for the Beehive logo Providence logo but in terms of size it's it's obviously a little smaller um in fact I we do require a variance for the width of the sign I think it's 12 the proposed is 12 fe9 in uh the current sign is 13 ft so it would actually be even not as wide but still requires a variance for the non-conformity and you didn't reference you didn't speak much about the other signs uh which what percentage of those are going to be lit as well none none just the one on the building just the one on the building okay and the timing again can you just one more time repeat the timing of the lighting for that big signs the timing would be when the branch is open which I believe is 9 to 6 currently um would be the time it would be lit okay okay it's all I have for now thank you okay we are going to open it to the public for any questions one little thing that was in Katherine's report actually said that the application form showed different block and lot numbers yes the site we just confirm what they are now yes the site plan that was submitted which was back I believe from 2011 when I believe this was first before the board for approval actually had a different block and lot than what's currently on record for the town when we asked for the 200 foot list so that's I in a and also by the lease documents actually had more blocks and lots so the application reflects what's in the site plan plus what's in our lease documents but I guess at some point in time the block has changed so notice was given pursuant to the 200 fil list provided for the town for this address and for actually was over inclusive submitted to everyone uh twice valenia and I had conversations about what lots of needed the 200 well had conversations about what lots and blocks he needed the 200 foot list on because there was some discrepancies belts and suspenders on belts and suspenders okay thank you any other questions from the board I just have to I I gathered my thoughts so okay I have a few uh I I appreciate the board that answered or asked and then had answered some of the questions that um I had um I only had um one other question that was not in my memo and that's related to the monument sign for the entire development uh the eo4 sign which is the it includes UD the Stop and Shop sign with the pharmacy sign it's on page six of the sign package um and it's just for the 2.7 square foot vinyl name plate um and really my question is related to um yours is the only tenant sign within that four squares um and I don't know if you have any control over um anything I just think it looks uh you know in just in visiting the site passing through the site that it looks a little strange and that there's only one tenant and there's no other tenantable sites at presently right now so you know I know we're you know uh very conscientious of the number of signs and the amount of signage but I would even say that it would probably be better or more useful to have a sign that takes up more space in that area if possible and I don't know how the board feels about that it just looks very skewed right now and that it takes up a small corner it's not very obvious it doesn't really serve a purpose and I think maybe uh whether it be a you know with the property manager with lease agreement to until such time that another building or another area is constructed to put in another tenant signs that maybe the Providence sign be across the top portion or be the entire box just to have some congruency with the rest of the sign not look like a um you know that the property has untenanted prop uh buildings I'm sure we could work with the landlord to perhaps Center this the sign at the top I I don't see why that would be an issue and unless I mean I I leave it to the board if they want to follow that recommendation I just felt that it could provide you know a little bit more symmetry within the sign and could be a little bit more visually appealing I would agree with the caveat that as soon as there's another sign need or more signs need but for the time being it probably has a better appearance to look fuller than empty spots yeah I I think from a if we approve this from a resolution point of view we give the permission to do that but whether they can do it or not really is up to the landlord who might have certain obligations or or certain plans that wouldn't allow that but we give the permission I brought that up the landlord might even think that you know it's it would be harder to kick you out of the sign box later on so they might not want to entertain it but um I think that you know the board can encourage or recommend that within the resolution and if it comes to fruition then um you know Mr Simmons would probably review that as part of resolution compliance if it was submitted differently from what was here tonight we will certainly work the landlord to try and Endeavor to do that thank you course uh and I did you know I did forget to mention given just the timing of of the conversion we would you know respectfully request maybe a waiver of the reading of the resolution just so we can get the temporary signage up and again it's going to be as Mr Bas said 22 days and counting it's we're at 21 um you know we're obviously not looking to keep it up there you know indefinitely yeah and there's no problem with that uh it's at that it's set the applicant's risk if anybody should file an appeal within the 45 days after the adoption and and particularly given the uh that we're dealing with just kind of replacing signs and kind there's no Prejudice to anybody so I would recommend frankly that that be granted seems to be no harm no foul any other questions from the deas no okay so we're going to open it up to the public for questions um for this witness okay seeing none I think we will proceed it's up to the board to have a discussion and if the board wants to make a motion to approve or deny or if it's a motion to approve I've got some Stars next to some potential conditions I can review before before you actually vote okay so are we ready to make a motion yeah I'll make a motion to approve with the conditions that you've written down a second thank you Deputy Mayor Dean blumi yes mat Burke yes D Ferman yes Justin canel yes Luciano yes right that yes Brian yes no and the just for the record the conditions I'm going to put in is that the the lighting of the sign will be only when the bank is open the permission so to speak to increase the use of the the monument sign and they indicated that the temporary sign's going to come down within 22 days we're not even going to see the resolution before that I'm just going to pick somewhat arbitrarily September 30th they'll have it down by then but I think we need to put a date for that temporary sign to come down okay okay okay all right thank you thank you very much thank you thank you thank you everyone thank you good welcome to the community again good night everybody good night by thank you night yes that was easy I wasn't expecting as many questions to do that you always think especially in times where retail is difficult that it looks like something is um notating strling all right I saw Dave on the way out and thank him and SL thank you very much for for heading that up no worries okay so now that now brings us to the second application which will be plan board application 24715 this is a preliminary final site plan for a new Warehouse application being submitted by baringer Corporation proposed to be located at 10 Aon way block 1603 this application is being carried from a July 24th meeting so welcome back to the folks on well thank you thank you chairman and and nice to be back I'm going to ask one thing if I can um again with with the um if you can speak into the yes thank you if everyone can just be conscious and speak into the microphone so people in the back can he as well as the people uh that may be listening from home so thank I'm sorry about that uh my name again is Nick ropi I'm with the law firm of rer Danzig and I'm representing the applicant as you say Beringer Corp at the last meeting we heard from Mr Campbell our engineer and planner who described in detail the history of this site and the well how it was welld designed in collaboration with the town we also heard from Mr Van Horn who spoke about the operations of the site and and there what's going to be happening there operationally as well as our need for parking so tonight we just have two way Witnesses we have uh Mr Jeff Flanigan who will be our architect he'll speak about the architectural details and then we'll bring back Mr Campbell to speak about some uh questions about uh uh banked parking possibility as well as the planning testimony so if there are no objections I'd like to get Mr Flanigan um yes sir please raise your right hand do you swear Fromm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God yes I do and please state your name and address and spell your last name sure Jeffrey Flanigan f l a n i g n that's 460 West Shore Trail Spartan New Jersey thank you gentlemen and uh Mr Flanigan can you give the board the benefit of your credentials licenses Etc so I uh have been licensed as since 1995 29 years I am licensed in uh four different states uh New York New Jersey Connecticut and Utah I am uh a member of the American Institute of Architects as well as narb have you appeared before boards before in your uh I've not appeared before boards in New Jersey I have in New York so we would ask that Mr uh Flanigan be admitted as an expert and architecture yes the board will accept his qualifications as an expert in architecture thank you please go ahead Mr flan could you give the board the benefit of the architectural details of the plan and project please absolutely how are you so we have an existing facility on Gail Court um in the same town so the intention was to try to match the detailing as best as possible for this new facility um we're trying to come up with a design Motif uh that works for this company um so what pictures on the left are pictures from Gail Court that's the existing building as it is now the picture here on the right let's mark a let's mark uh maybe Mr Campbell knows our next A4 A4 that's right A4 will be the one on the left you could even mark it uh Mr Flanigan uh with your handwriting um with today's date which is a August 7th 2024 and that'll be A4 and basically that's a photograph of the existing baringer facility at Gilt that's correct okay and would you describe the other U plan you'll be referring to as well so the other rendering is the proposed facility at Aaron way it's sheet number t101 uh I do want to point out that we uh read the reports and we saw the comments and we trying to address uh in this new rendering uh a different uh approach on the front facade uh we recognize that the the U sorry the Ed uh Zone section 18-4 29. i8 talked about before we get too far into it before we get too far into it um so this is this was not submitted as part of the package correct that's correct we had a different version okay so should we mark this yeah this will be A5 A5 and you could do that again mark this is A5 and the date in in that uh code section it talked about uh not having a metal facade on the front of the building um so we did have in the previous iteration that you've seen in the drawing submitted uh we we had a marquee area to the right which is the entrance and it's the office area um and that was to try to create a you know a visual uh aesthetic focal point uh for the building um we did have from the from the office to the end the metal facade but we've now readdressed that and we're extending the decorative uh concrete panels all the way to the end so to give them more of a cohesive and uh just a more a nicer material really so in matching the original Gale Court we have a stone column on the corner which creates our entrance way okay we have a metal aluminum storefront system with glass uh we have a clabbered uh system which is creates our sort of focal point for the signage for the building um and then we have the uh Breeze solay over the over the windows and we also have then the concrete panels um there are some punch Windows above we do have a storage Loft so we're bringing a little bit of light into that area area um the other facad of the building we are proposing a metal corrugated system for for that uh not really visual from the street so much and that's really it on the exterior if you I have thank you okay so I have no further question question okay um why don't we uh open it up to our professionals while you there if you don't mind and um see if they have any questions and make sure that their their comments and stuff all been addressed so Catherine we going start with you if that's okay uh can you just I just can't see the full building if you just pull it over that'd be wonderful thank you so I appreciate you looking at the review memos and double cheing that section um for the design standard for the building I think that the front facade does um the revision does show an improvement to what was previously proposed um including those concrete panels being extended along the building and kind of making it all you know one uh cohesive design there what I will say is that there there is a provision under that section which requires that building facade shall be constructed on the same material and quality on all four sides and so um I don't know if there's an opportunity to pull any more of that concrete paneling around the edge of the building I understand this is more of an industrial use um um the but these design standards were specifically included for the purposes of trying to you know create higher standards um for design in some of these Economic Development districts um and properties so um with that being said is there any opportunity around the other edge of the the other sides of the building to kind of start incorporate some of the either the materials or some of the design elements um to kind of break I know you said they won't see the side of the building but you're on a corner property they probably will see some of it is there any way to incorporate any of those design elements there's a there's a possibility definitely yes U we do at the other end which is the the other Street Frontage we've uh I believe we' added a lot more trees as well to conceal that end the building yes I think Mr Simmons's memo had included that um evergreen trees um would be utilized on that portion of the building to try and help screen and also break up some of the mass of the building uh and I do understand that uh I I would say that if this if that if number five underneath that section can't be complied with or isn't complied with a probably to seek some sort of design waiver for it um or variance and um I I think there are opportunities probably to not have I know the you know building materials do relate to the building cost of construction I totally understand that um I think there are probably possibilities we're not saying you know the entire building needs to be on all four sides concrete panel but I think it should incorporate some of the design elements to help fashion that and not just utilize Landscaping to and rely on Landscaping to handle that um and so if there's any way that we can include that I think that'd be you know Wonderful okay that's fair thank you okay anything else got for the architect that's that's really all I had okay Dave any questions uh just a couple Mr chairman I referring to the report dated June 6 2024 that I prepared we went through most of the items last time we discussed this application with Mr Campbell uh I don't remember if these two items were brought up though uh I noticed there's an elevator will there be any emergency generator for the building uh yes there will be emergency generator okay and as far as the HVAC units where will they be located ground mounted or on the roof ground mounted behind the building nothing on the roof that's correct okay that's all I have on the architecture Mr chairman okay I apologize Mr chairman I did have one can you just repeat the other sides of the building what the material is utilized for those it's a corrugated metal faade okay so I did miss one thing um there's another requirement I don't know if you're aware of this that uh under number three under that section that exposed metal buildings sheet or corrugate melt asbest similar materials used on exterior walls I'm sorry on that's on the Frontage if that is that included on the Frontage on the corner there as well on the left side so yeah because you do have that kind of which what's the other roadway um so along the the park lake road side there is corrugated metal on that Frontage there was uh so that explicitly prohibits something so that language is a little stronger um I would I would I think as far as my my previous comments I think you probably do need to expand some of that building material matal um around that wrap it around that side at a minimum um I think I'll rely on the board for their comments that's my recommendation as far as the other SI the facades that are less visible um I'll rely on the board's comments for that but um that that is specifically prohibited as a frontage so I would um you know I make the recommendation to the board that they they you know ask the applicant to comply with that thank [Music] you Sim anything else okay all right so let's bring it back to today um Justin okay question uh fan start with you good uh the only thing I'm going to ask is that would you please turn that photo so that the public can see it because they're not um they're they're not really seeing what it is that we're talking about oh really thank you appreciate it no other questions right now thank you nope good I'd just like to say that I concur with our planner's um comment about wrapping that around the side of the building okay I I uh would Echo the same especially around the uh prohibited piece uh but I would like to see the design elements wrap around as much as possible the um you mentioned the emergency generator and the HVAC uh how will they be shielded from view probably a better question for Alan Campbell okay brought it up at our last I think Mr Campbell uh spoke about that he's going to be up again so it's a good question for him and and he'll speak about it again okay same with Landscaping yes okay thank you that's all I have then okay uh just a couple questions uh from me um I believe the building sign will not be lit is that correct uh that's correct on the fa is not okay great um and you you'll talk to the parking aspect of it later in terms of the bank parking yes Mr Campbell will speak about that next um there was one one question so what is the square footage I I I just so I make sure I have it right the square footage of the building and and Does it include the Second Story uh the second floor um [Applause] so the uh gross floor area is 18,1 71 square ft that does include the storage Loft okay I I thought I let me go back and look I thought I'd seen something a little different but I think it's Ron I'm seeing 18275 yeah that includes I'm sorry that includes the covered porch which is outdoor okay area interor Okay um I don't know if this is an architecture question um Catherine we I think you had mentioned in your report um there was a question about the lot area ratio was that ever I I had asked that question of the engineer at the last hearing um based on the updated landscape plan that didn't include that that's I think that's a question for the civil engineer right no questions yeah Mr Campbell will be answering that question as well okay thank you question no further questions I just have one quick one I just want to confirm there'll be no floor drains in the building that is correct okay thank you the water going down way thank you oh Mr chairman did we open him to question from the public oh thank you uh any members uh from the public do you have any questions about the testimony that was just given by Mr Flanigan okay seeing none um thank you thank you Mr Collins God I started a trend I'm sorry keep it on that side people that's what happened the water went down the wrong way and then it just wouldn't stop C moreish you need help or you got it Tom do we need to I believe we're okay no he's still under oath alen you understand you're still under oath correct yes do Mr please go ahead very good thank you and good evening again sent Campell professional engineer and professional planner um I did listen to this and even over here picked me up as I try to speak loud for you and um there will be some comments that I want to go back to regarding the architectural testimony and the discussion about the ordinance and the appearance of what roadside facades on the building so as we go through a couple cple of pieces of followup from last hearing and continuation into the architectural presentation I'm going to have a couple of aspects of engineering and sight to touch on which will be a carryover from last meeting and then I'll proceed into hopefully going through the process of closing up the application form the um one of the aspects that I did want to discuss with the board was brought to the table at the end of last meeting is we were looking at A3 again A3 as it was originally presented to the board and during the conclusion of the operations testimony it was noted that this operation requires 12 parking spaces to to function the ordinance requires 41 parking spaces um there was a discussion on the table regarding the potential of banking parking as that on the July 25th submission of an exhibit and a cover letter to the board and it's professionals um I have presented in that uh applic correspondence a proposal that we could Bank the 14 spaces and by banking these 14 spaces and as I noted from A3 these spaces would be the spaces labeled 28 through 41 which lie to the back of the building towards the south side of the building these spaces could be um banked built in the future if another need or another user in that building came back to this board and said we need more parking for the facility currently this facility as proposed needing 12 spaces building out the 41 would be considered a bit of excess the recommendation to consider banking I concur with my correspondence indicates that if we were to bank these 14 spaces uh the proposal will be to put a depressed curb were on A3 I had the red line drawn which would continue the truck circulation we had a comment from the fire department that it would not interfere with the fire department we had a comment from the health department it would not comment with the health and safety or the septic issues and I'm testifying that it does not interfere with any other circulation aspects of the site what we would do is we put a flush curb in that location that I emphasized with the red line which would be the entrance to these spaces that flush curve curb would hold the Integrity of the curb and the pavement and in the future if the parkings was ever needed we would simply PVE the new parking spaces put in another curb and build a sidewalk by doing this banking the impervious cover then that we would be looking at would be 44.5% so you would gain more efficient uh use of resources by having less parking and not having s surplus of what they call motor vehic surface today uh we do not propose to change the storm water to address any of these changes we would lead the storm water as designed so it can accommodate to 48% impervious and by doing this I think we take into consideration that the board had comments about the imperious cover ratio that we were exceeding the 40% but still under the 50% that was the overall design intent of this development um so I just introduced that option of the bank parking um um and noted it would not interfere with the function of the site okay another aspect that was brought to the table is regarding uh some of the landscape ordinance and what I'll refer to a relatively new landscape ordinance um in spart attach on the design standards of 1853 there was a 30% impervious surface with with a requirement of the plant Mass area now specifically the pl Mass area as in this particular case as presented in the landscape plan 31% so by my calculation we concur with that uh we comply with that requirement uh was noted in our last testimony that it appeared to I can did the calculations and it does uh it also talks to plantings on say the perimeter of the access corridor and as you noted in the landscape plan as we access from Aaron way on your right hand side or to the west of the property the en the entire perimeter of that excess Corridor is planted not just with the 5ft minimum but with a 10-ft wide planting area in this planting plan as presented to the board last meeting there's 346 total plantings and that does not include the plantings within the rain Garden um being through many site plan applications through this municipality and others that is a significant number of plantings and by this number of plantings and the rain gings we're exceeding and complying with your ordinance as noted with regards to the Ed districts 1841 29 there's a distinction between the plant Mass area and the landscape area so what I look at is what is not included as landscape areas so by your ordinance what I'm reading is not including areas occupied by buildings structures Paving for parking loading or access there to so in this particular landscape plan and the site plan not taking into consideration of the bank parking which will then have those parking spaces green we have approximately 52% or 40% is required and therefore we do comply with the new section of that particular ordinance um I also make reference to other planting areas that are restricted for planting which would be the site triangle easement the septic fields and additionally I wanted to note on the Park Lake Frontage where we have an extensive line of plantings proposed that was originally proposed as a response to the report to break up that side of the building um just now going through the architectural presentation and introduce through the ordinance uh from the architectural requirements if it's a design waiver or if it's a variance whichever the determination made the app had addressed that ordinance and discussed having the Aaron way would that call it the fancier facade what we would ask the board to consider is taking only the corners on the Park Lake Road and then basically taking that architectural feature that runs the full length of Aaron way and coming in on each Corner perhaps two blocks dressing up the corners like a picture frame on the peak end of the building which is the side of the building not the front of the building and if they would consider that we introduce that the plantings are there to break up the side that facade would return on the corners enhancing the corners as it appears on that wall and note that it is the side of the building not the front of the building yes it does face on the road and as you read that ordinance there might be some confusion as to how it specifies that one side of the building is supposed to be dressed up so to speak and then the other sides are left in questioned as to what's not permitted yet it is a little bit ambiguous to me how one part of that ordinance says do this with the road Frontage piece but then it's not acceptable to do all the sides and not matching so that would almost suggest that you have to do all four sides which was certainly not here it asked to do but if it's only the face of the frontage of the building then it would be the Aon way and granted we are on side road so the side of the building we would ask to relieve that burden and do only say a picture frame on the corners of the building and have the landscape break up that wall so if that's a consideration for the board I think we would have to take that as a design waiver or the variance whichever is the determination which it may be um again that section of the ordinance is relatively new to me as it's not something that I'd experienced in the last 20 years with this particular type of application um and how the board interprets that I don't know I defer that to the council um I believe that touches base on those aspects of the engineering and some of the landscape um maybe a little bit more on the architectural I don't know if we want to cut off at that point and talk about some of those aspects before we go into what I would just caption as the close of the meeting where we would talk um just to have me verify the proofs that are applicable for the various expences I just have one more question uh based on your knowledge and fam familiarity with the um with the uh complex or subdivision right and the other buildings on on Aaron way would you think what you're proposing here on the Side Road is harmonious and consistent with that construction the The Proposal that is from the landscape aspects of this application and the architectural features of this application in my opinion this is going to be one of the nicest buildings in the Ed Zone and I'm not saying that standing here on behalf of this applicant specifically I've done countless buildings on Wilson Drive Gil Court we're over in the gilbeck side of the world we've come from the railroad over by Wilsonville as we refer to off of station or House's Corner Road all the way to what is now the end and um we do have an exhibit I don't know if it warrants bringing in but if we go diagonally across Park Lake and arway you have a full metal building all sides others portions are are split block face then there are multiple other types of facades and when you look at the entire Ed Zone and the extent the landscape that we're proposing by extent the landscape that exist around these buildings there are many attractive buildings throughout um I can go back in history 25 years and think of certain applicants that have gone overboard and done an extremely nice job for Sparta yet in this particular case this landscape and this facade I think is going to be one of the nicest you're going to see in the Ed Zone and I do want to comment that some of his facade gets to be very costly and sometimes becomes cost prohibitive for a project thank you I think I think finish the planning testimony would be great uh then cross examination and then the board can deliberate you know essentially for the variance for the impervious cover is what we need to discuss and the um aspects that we look at are essentially for meeting a negative criteria not having a negative impact in consistent with that would be that this design is consistent with the water quality standards I testified into great detail about the overall planning of the storm water for the development as a whole and how this storm water for this specific site is and in my opinion it uses very efficient use of the land this entire Ed Zone as it's laid out for this Sparta Community is a very efficient use of the land it acknowledges use of this Park Lake Road area Aaron way your other Ed zones and then you have the Vass parks next door not only do you have the public parks you have the the camp so as you look at this whole region you've got a good mix of a lot of open space with those parks and camps adjacent to the Ed zone so it blends to making a very efficient use of the land in the overall Community I don't see negative impact because of the storm water being sufficient and as commented about the landscape once again with the landscape features that we're proposing again any negative impacts about the visual impacts are addressed by this extensive landscape then as we look at some of the positive aspects that we would want to hear about we talk to how we meet the purpose of Mis melanous law and some of the goals of the ml or the act as they say where we provide adequate light air and open space just the layout of the lot and the way the configuration is surrounding and the adjoining properties inter relate each other it provides for this open airspace type of appeal and I comment about the adjoining properties in the vast acreage in the area a appropriate and efficient expenditure of public funds by the coordination of public development and land use policies that's why I elaborated on how it was a public and private development sector on this overall development how the town took over the Basin how the town had the interest in the Basin to protect its wellheads and the aquafer that it sits on so as a combined effort I believe the municipality and the developer at the time meet that goal provide sufficient space and appropriate location for industrial usage this application speaks for itself the entire Ed Zone speaks for itself in that case promotes a desirable and visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design Arrangement again we're looking at a well landscaped area a facility that is fitting to the community and the development that is placed within it's actually lesser development than the adjoining properties as you look at the impervious cover which I testified to earlier and therefore we meet that goal and again we encourage the coordination of PR public and private procedures and activities shaping the development of land lessening the cost for such development and to be more efficient use of land I think we reach all those goals with our proposal um I can close with that and any questions regarding specifically I believe the waiver for the building was something that we haven't discussed before I have one question I didn't want to miss I think it was from the deputy mayor talking about shielding of some of the equipment uh either the generator or the HVAC on the ground yes the answered a question regarding the generator and the um sorry I don't recall last meeting we had discussed where the generator and the um other HVAC unit were going to be placed in the back of the building adjacent to the garage access doors and my testimony was that if the noise levels of the generator were deemed to be anything above that permitted by the state codes that they would have additional sound Shields and then they would have the applicable PV sense PVC fence to enclose them so that they were not visible I'm sorry if you missed that last last test no I heard part of that um so the fence is optional it's only if needed no well the white PVC fence is proposed to be round utility okay basically when you pull up you're not going to see the generator you're going to see white BV sense but if the generator has any additional sound requirements for diminishing diminishing the sound will have additional sound barriers if necessary which can be done inside using that fence okay thank you I have no further questions okay Mr Simmons Mr chairman we did go over my June 6 2024 report at the last year in on this application as I recall Mr Campbell did basically uh use that as a guide when he made his presentation and then when I went through the report I highlighted various areas that needed additional flushing out if you will uh again he just talked about the HVAC and the generator units generator unit diesel or natural gas or propane I believe it'll be natural gas as believe the natural gas available in this development now okay um I did concur with all the storm water management uh facilities that they've designed including the flush curb with the note by the rain Garden that that will be flush actually be plowed so that in the winter time an ice dam wouldn't form to prevent the water from going down into that area I don't recall I have a yes here but the building will be sprinkler yes okay so that was taken care of we just went through the landscaping and I believe we discussed and correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm being redundant there's not going to be any floor drains in the building I think you just asked the architect that as well um and the only only other thing was uh I believe Mr Mr Van Horn probably outlined that there's no hazardous materials to be used in this facility it's basically just the materials and the welding and fabricating that's correct that's all I had Mr chairman okay thank you Mr thank you uh I appreciate the testimony and the updates based on some of the questions of the last meeting um I think you know one of my major Focus points is probably still those design elements that are required in the Ed zone now um and I will say that while the codification is is something that's new they were based a lot on existing buildings which you know Sparta has been lucky enough that without even the standards in there that they have had very quality Industrial Development um and very good aesthetic design despite not having any codifications requiring that now with that being said I don't think that the codifications necessarily within the Ed Zone um are conflicting and maybe I can clarify that um in that each of them are different layers each of those requirements are different layers to the building design meaning one the building has to have um you know high quality materials um which is it was intentional to include certain materials being prohibited um and that's not to say that the building is not designed to be beautiful right now I think that there are you know there's intentional um choices within the ordinance to avoid any kind of lowquality um construction or whatever I think the building has been designed nicely uh however the ordinance does have some prohibitions as far as the building being constructed of all the same materials which I think is where you thought there was conflict uh with number two which is the entryway has a focal point um it's it's just intended that the building have um and you can see that kind of in the Gale core is that the the sides don't match the front which is can be Stark if you're entering the parking lot can be Stark you just from a visual perspective and I think that's what we're trying to avoid here now um like I said I think the building is is close it's gotten better since the original design um I think that the wrapping of some of that concrete panel or whatever you know material ultimately is choose based on a cost perspective uh I think those larger kind of panels definitely break up the mass a little more rather than having you know skinnier um skinnier lines or vertical lines which are shown on the metal corrugated metal now specifically exposed metal building sheet corrugated metal those are not allowed but that doesn't mean to say a lot of buildings that'll go for an industrial look or go for a more modern look you'll see them in some even like retail areas use metal paneling systems I think the difference between corrugated metal and metal panel system is probably just one level of quality or one level of like look so um what I would say to the board is that if they were willing to um you know not allow a corrugated metal but maybe even still a metal paneling system insulated metal whatever it ends up being so that there can be a cost um you know not a huge cost differential I think that it will go far for the look it'll also go far for you know the approval before the board I'm trying to get a nod my eyes aren't that good so I couldn't tell you if they did or not and perhaps when you je the comment on what this metal roof or this metal siding actually is we'll ask but let's these are just recommendations that I have um I'm trying to explain through the ordinance I'm trying to avoid and I appreciate that I myself understood confused when I got the number four I think it was understood why don't we take further questions and we can come back to this question um I just had one other question about the landscape there uh in the landscape requirements which are now incorporated in the Ed Zone as well specifically um there are is attention to suggestions or encouragement of using um Native species where possible I think this came up at the last meeting I'm not sure but um you know some of the plants on the list do have NJ native very similar plants and if they are available if they can be utilized we would you know appreciate that I think it could and we agree to get to greatest extent possible yes thank you with what's available yes thank you um and I think I think that's that's all I have for the for the engineer at this time thank you all right gentlemen you you ready to talk about that or you want some more time we can continue with questions continue with questions okay so let's bring it back to the days so Justus I'll start on your end if that's okay I'm okay for now okay AR okay I have no questions Deputy Mayor yes thank you I have uh several questions i' like to go through U for the first one I'd like to set little context and it goes back to what was discussed last time about um the environmental commission's report around what zone this is in and some of the other environmental aspects of this U so a few comments and I'll get to my question uh first one is that uh you know I see this is in an existing Community Zone it's the lake Sub Zone um so I think I think we're clear on that it does state that the development or Redevelopment you know provided that it's compatible with the protection and character of the Highland's environment it also talks about the importance for the Sub Zone to prevent degradation of water quality Watershed pollution harm to Lake ecosystems and promote natural aesthetic values within the existing Community zone so that's one part I want I want to set the context of U the second one is the there was a mention of Wells last time and there was a comment about what the wellhe heads weren't that close um just to clarify that the property is within a Wellhead protection Zone um 36% of the property is within a tier one zone and the remainder 64% is with within a tier two Zone uh and finally as was mentioned last time I believe is that this is within the property is within a Vernal pool buffer area so so that being said my questions there was a comment last time around uh I believe Celeste brought this up around well the Crux of allowing more than 40% right what's at the heart of allowing more than 40% impervious is the regional Basin and the functionality of that so the original capacity was designed to handle up to 50% for each lot of each lot correct yeah so how do we how do we know today and going forward that that capacity is still there to handle this this many years later and it's in functioning condition that it can handle the storm water from this lot so when the subdivision was first I I believe I testified to this has to each lot's responsibility I don't recall if you recall my testimony on that part so when we first set the subdivision up 2004 whatever year it may be I could go to the exhibit if necessary to be specific each lot was more or less an allocation to use 50% of impervious cover and have that directly discharge into the regional Basin so if we only used 48% there would be a 2% Surplus in that pond that doesn't mean the next guy gets 52% right and the guy across the street that got 58% he put additional storm water ponds in in order to accommodate the overage so across the street where there's 58% on that particular site that was approved you have storm water basins in front of it for that extra 8% which means that he only used 50% of that Basin so that Basin was designed installed it was reviewed and approved and accepted by I believe CP Engineers they representing the town and the as built conditions concur that it was in compliance or excess of my design the asut was done by others and I was uh contacted numerous times during that asilt from Dave Clark CP Engineers while they were reviewing the asilt done by Owen dyra PE from locally here in Andover Sparta and by that you have the pond built the town's responsible for the maintenance of the pond and each property owner is responsible for their own drainage structures and I'm sorry if you if I missed this in my presentation last time but each structure has a sump in it before it connects to the rest that's a hole in the bottom that collects debris that is required to be pumped out twice a year by a hauler and responded with documentation back to MP pality so each property has a responsibility to maintain their drainage so that any siltation from the drainage any litter debris that gets into the drainage system is trapped on their own site and they are responsible to provide the documentation to the nality that they maintain that then from there what goes to the pond if the there's any additional sediment or suspended sols that come from the roadway that is trapped and treated in the pond itself where this particular Pond is there and designed in accordance with the state to provide for the water quality treatment that's necessary the quantity quum um is regulated by this action this board which is why they did not blanket 50% in the Zoning for this development they chose to keep it at 40% so this board could regulate late so when it did go over 50% you accommodated that eight like you did across the street or the previous board before this so that's the only way I can tell you that we assure that pond has the volume the maintenance of that pond is the responsibility of the towns and they chose to do that in conjunction with the developer the developer had the cost of one less slot to develop but it was to the protection of the well heads that are directly behind it where the water company has the property directly opposite this pond hopefully that answers your uh partially first of all anecdotally uh the requirement and responsibility for not your lot but the other lots to do that by uh semiannual cleansing mapping or um uh reporting of the basins and that maintenance and reporting to the town anecdotally that doesn't happen all the time I do know that not saying that's your your lot to your problem but that's that's not in theory that's how it's supposed to be it doesn't always happen I know that my application on Aaron Way brings that to this board and in testimony says that my applicant is responsible to do that right right because I designed that site and it was intended by your engineer at the time Charlie Ryan to have that and Eric pel this Mr Simons concurred specifically each property owner is responsible for that just as they're responsible for own their own lawn right understood understood uh I understand how the system is supposed to work when it was designed my question still is today do we have any evidence that that pond down the road still can handle what it was meant to when it was designed years ago that's my question is there a way to know the only way to know would be by observation during a storm possibly like you had Friday um if there was any observation um it's not the most exciting thing but I designed very I I run around the county after a heavy storm looking at the different ponds to see how they functioned that I've designed whether it's Hampton Frankfurt wage um not exciting thing but pretty interesting yeah I don't do that here because one it's fenced in and two it's not necessarily a specific site that I'm still the engineer for I would anticipate that perhaps the municipality would regulate that in some way and perhaps have the municipality would have someone observe let's say we get another five inches of rain in 20 minutes like we had last Friday or Saturday have someone go out 12 hours later it's going to be 12 to 13 hours later you see that pond Crest which would be the peak Crest at the end of the day right um so right now we're going based on an assumption that it's operational to full capacity and can handle this development correct I would and I would have to ask the board to make that assumption that it is a reasonable decision to make of this board that what's designed is regulated by your municipality in accordance what was intended MH and okay I don't know how else to EXP to the board I there's not storm water police yet right uh and just to clarify there is because the impervious is under 50 there is no Basin excess Basin plan for this correct there is not but we are still proposing the rain Garden in order to further enhance the water quality M because one aspect which was brought up at last meeting was that there was a change in the design intensities storm intensities so in July 20 20 2023 there was a magic switch turn so one day the rain got more by a factor of 1.7 or thereabouts in Sparta next year it's going to go 1.5 or something thereabouts I got to look up that number um so recognizing that that 50% was what was done back in 20120 and 2023 we have that factor my storm Water Analysis and Design at the 48% demonstrates consistency that we do not exceed the allocation into that pond that we were originally uh proposed to have even when I'm using the number which is from 2023 which is a greater design flow right right hopefully that explains how that worked yes it is does the um I know we talked just a few minutes ago about Mr Simmons report and I just wanted to confirm a few it on there just to just to be clear U there was an additional Inlet to collect the wintertime storm water that may flow on our down Aron way because of the maybe bypassing the depressed curbs was that is that in the plans now is that no actually I described and testified last meeting that again I'm sorry if it wasn't clear in my testimony last meeting that what was discussed was a depressed curb and what I proposed was a flush curb being difference at depress curb it's not depressed it's depressed from 6 in down to an inch and a half so it still sticks up okay right a depress curb routes water a flush curb provides for water over the top M this water over the top on the Aaron Way entrance is designed specifically to be flush curved in order to allow the water to flow over in sheet flow which is one of the dry the ecors of the storm water rules and they go by sheet flow over grass area which is dedicated to be a snow removal area kept clear and in fact part of my testimony was that we moved the sign from 25 ft to 35 ft in order to preserve that area so that addressed the concern of Mr Simmons about the snow Dam because that's where we put our snow and then snow melts goes into the rain garden and the rain Garden flows on its way MH so there is no new Inlet and this is what Mr Simmons had just commented to regarding the item about that Inlet and the flush cone snow removal area and subsequent to the report that I did I did discuss that alternative uh method of handling uh in the winter time especially when the snow Dam forms and I was in agreement with Mr Campbell that we didn't need the inlet as long as it was a flush curb and the applicant agrees to maintain it and actually plow the snow beyond the curb the flush curb so that the water could drain in that area Okay so the rain Garden would collect that plus the roof will part of the roof runoff will go into the rain as well is that correct that's correct okay um all the questions I have for now actually I have one more and it might be under consideration now you mentioned earlier about dressing up the corners I know we're still talking about another idea you didn't actually indicate if you could how far in from the corners if you were thinking about dressing it up you would go Ian it's a very large building the side the street it do yeah getting more information for you thank you appreciate the live updates I take my time we don't interation we'll get it done they're going to carry that uh facade across the whole park lake so they're going to do the facade along Aaron way that was described by your architect earlier and instead of just dealing with the corners the do the whole side okay and then you'll have both Street fronts done with that facade um I'm going to tell you we saw the cost estimates of it's very pricey MH and it is it's extremely pricey and doing both sides I think is a big gesture for the applicant thank you go ahead well just think you'll save money with the parking you don't have to build I only wish the parking was that expensive it's a 3 to1 trade well we can go a little further maybe um what do you want to take away well no I do appreciate you taking um or Bank banking those spots 28 through I think it was 41 um which brought the impervious coverage down to 44.5% but since you only need 12 parking spaces and even if you double that at maybe 24 or whatever there's still some room to work with and would you consider maybe banking spots 6 7 8 9 and 10 along the side of the building the parallel parking and that would bring the impervious coverage down a little bit more because I still am concerned um deputy blumetti brought it up about the environmental commission they don't support the variance request so I want to try and see if there's a way we can get a little bit closer that report where they did not support the Vance request in spite of the original design and development in the whole was also based on information that had this in a different Zone which is why I made the issue of reading what zone it was in because that initial report had us in a different Zone the other Zone which did not talk to a facility of this nature and as I pointed out and as was just repeated that we are in ecz zone so that report that didn't support it was based on a different interpretation of the Highlands section did you go back to them though so so I think what I'm getting at is these would be the parking spaces as you come in off of Aaron way on the right hand side where there's parallel parking and we could Bank one two three four five parking spaces that on the right hand side there um doing something similar in nature with a flush curb and I think I'm getting a nod yes that that's acceptable okay that's great so we do that um how do you if if yes we can do that and yes we agree to do that uh how do we procedurally address the variance relief do we still say it's a variance of 48% and then Bank the parking which recognizes that with the buildout with the bank parking it would be 40 whatever per and then that variance is also the bank parking granted with a parking variance um yeah yes I what we normally have done and we have done this on many occasions is it's a conditional Grant of the variance from the impervious coverage and the parking number um with what I described at the last meeting and actually we saw in a prior approval I think it was the Thor Labs building uh it's the waiver of the present implementation of the required spaces and the condition that occurs on those is that um some or all of the parking spaces shall be added if the township engineer or the applicant determine that they are need did now that as as I can remember has never been necessary and based on the testimony we heard from this applicant it sounds like we could even reduce the number of parking spaces further but I don't think it's necessary based upon this design so it's basically a variance from the parking standard and the imperious coverage but subject to a condition that um it's a waiver of the present a of those spaces and they shall only be built if the township engineer and the applicant determine that they're needed um and mely only to the extent they're needed you don't even have to build all of them you only have to build theoretically what some uh overage is showing um also this particular Street these two streets have wide streets and do have on street parking which is not going to be needed but is available in this Zone all right so if you are to take out those five spots um looks like he's calculating that now yeah he's doing the calculation and I'm thinking about the plantings as well that could go in there but that's just slightly over 1.2% or slightly over 1% so I think if you were going to Let's qu 1% and we down to 43.5% um which it's a lot better is getting a lot closer to the Target yeah parking that we testified to is not necessary you so and you would put additional bank parking yes and you would put some uh plantings in that area here I can find a landscape plan in many boards that we have um this this border is already heavily planted with a pretty solid band of about 10 to 12 feet of plantings so yeah I know you have a lot with that be grass then I think that would be best to be grass and so what we would do is install install a flush curb like we had proposed at this point no curb no pavement and simply Turf which would be a green band with 10 to 12 feet of landscape behind it okay thank you that would really help I just had one other question on the um design on the left hand side bottom there's inspection Port what is an inspection Port over here yeah that's the adjoin inter septic system the INSP C ports other qu markers where you can open up and look in for E intercept the okay got it thank you that was all I had thank you I have one question um regarding the uh the plantings the 346 plantings what what size are they do we have a requirement um Catherine that one more time is there a requirement in terms of the size of the plantings so I don't believe in at least in the Ed Zone there's no requirements about the the size of the trees at plantings whether it be the caliper of the tree the height of the tree the I don't believe we have that or the gallonage but we do have requirements as far as the type Natives and then Evergreens in certain areas and then how those evergreens are staggered how far apart they are Etc I'd have to check the landscape ordinance itself to see if we do have requirements that the majority of the trees that are proposed are 2 to 3 in caliper to start okay and then the majority of the plantings are 2 to five gallon as summarized in the bottom left corner um the the best I could tell you then is the five foot high is to start on most of these trees and with a two gallon bucket you're going to get The Perennial plantings and the typical Juniper mats that you might see along the edge of the landscape and the lake okay with a two gallon a five G would obviously be the bigger grasses thank you that's all I have I'm good thank you I'm good as well uh let's open it up to the public unless Mr Collins you have any questions or that' be good Mr chairman for questions and public questions and testimony from the public okay all right any members of the public wish to ask uh have any questions that they'd like to ask or give any testimony or a testimony okay so seeing none um anything else that that you would like to offer or that's our application okay that's it right thank you thank you thank for your time Mr cols could you help us put together our motion here yes Mr chairman it's if the board was interested you could consider a motion to approve the preliminary and final site plan and related C variances and site plan exceptions as discussed throughout the hearings and in the documents uh the approval will be subject to the uh standard conditions uh there will also be uh granting of a variance for the impervious coverage to reduce uh to to increase it up to 48 something per as described by Mr Campbell but with the condition that it will be uh not necessary to install all of the parking spaces and that some of the parking spaces will be wav or varied for from present implementation as described uh by Mr Campbell and that the uh impervious coverage resulting from the the deferral of the parking will be uh 43.5% rather than the proposal of 48% and this is uh subject to all of the standard conditions the review reports and the offer by the applicant to install the same uh concrete uh facade material on the Park Lake Road side of the um property as on on the uh Ain way side um and I think that's all the conditions that I had Mr chairman and the design carrying around yeah I put that in there yeah the banking banking of banking I mean we we can go into the details but I will get that in the resolution what those parking space numbers were so also there was a two other comments one about the native plantings yes that to the maximum extent pass practical okay use the uh Native plantings and then the additional Evergreens on the what side of the building yes and they Park Lake Road side they shall install the additional Evergreens on the Park Lake Road side of the building there was also another comment about dimming the lights overnight yes okay so the the lights will be actually uh only security lights will be kept on after uh business hours and they coordinate this security lighting with the board engineer does anybody have any other comments relative to the motion all right could I anybody would anybody like a motion to approve the uh resolution as uh the motion as uh Tom had set forth I'll I'll make a motion proove us okay okay sorry roll call please mayor Dean yes mat Burke yes J Ferman yes Justin caneles yes celest Luciano yes Ernie rad yes Brian zman yes right good luck thank you gentlemen appreciate it and appreciate all the thank you best of luck the work you've done with us on this thank you good luck all right why don't we take if we can a quick 10minute break uh give people a chance to stretch their legs and we'll come back and then we'll pick up on the last application of the night so we'll be back here e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e is this like I know I don't blame you no like folks we ready to start up again so um welcome back uh we're now going to start our third application tonight which is planning board application 24-13 Ramon company LLC this is an amended site plan preliminary and final for two restaurants being proposed the 61 Sparta Avenue block 5019 lot one so welcome to the folks uh from RZ and Company uh good evening Mr chairman Michael salvaji from labor salvaji and com on behalf of uh the applicant uh for the property you correctly described um it's the property for most of you recognize it as part of Pharmacy you're old enough M if you could if you could talk thank you uh as I said the property many of you may recognize the spart of Pharmacy if you've been around long enough you remember it is lel's uh TV and Appliance Center um the property is located in the TCC uh Zone uh the proposal is for two small restaurant um takeout type restaurants uh in two distinct spaces in the building uh the uses are permitted however um this building's been a long time uh the design is predates what we would do today um and under your current parking standards um the the two restaurants uh do not the the site doesn't provide enough parking so that's really what the primary reason uh why we're here there's really no other uh changes proposed uh to the building itself there' be signage that'll be compliant with what the ordinance requires um so the focus will primarily be this evening on the parking uh to my right is Sim nater who will uh who's the engineer for the applicant uh we also have John MCD who's behind me uh to talk about the uh planning variances uh what we'd like to do is first have Mr nater sworn in and he'll kind of walk you through the site uh and touch upon the interior Renovations and then uh we'll have uh Mr McD follow up with that assuming time permits so I hand the mic to sim Mr nater please raise your right hand do you swear or firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do and please uh state your name and spell your last name and give us an address sure full name is Wasim nater W SS i m nater n a de R the address is 111 Mill Street hacketstown New Jersey 07840 U Mr nater if you could uh let the board uh and public know uh your educational background your experience in land use matters as a civil engineer and most importantly the status of your license sure absolutely um um I'm a civil engineer um professional engineer I have been licensed since 1992 and have appeared before countless boards mining zoning land use um I um I'm a partner at the firm nator the nater group I have with me our architect partner as well in case we need her support in talking about the building itself the interior for that matter and um I also teach at the New Jersey Institute of Technology and the civil engineering department I have a bachelor's and a master's of Science in civil engineering and that's what I practice and your license is current correct yes it is the board will accept uh Mr nater's qualifications as a professional engineer please go ahead gentlemen all right so uh Mr nater uh you in fact uh commissioned the preparation of the site plans that were submitted as part of the application did you not I did yes all right why don't we uh go through those plans uh help the board Orient itself as to uh the unique dimensions of this property and some of the impacting it absolutely thank you Mike so we we have a very limited number of shields that we have submitted as part of the site plan this is an existing building on an existing improved site and uh it occupies the corner of uh County Route 517 and Sparta Avenue uh sheet number one or c -1 is the cover sheet the cover sheet has a title of amended site plan 61 spart Avenue block 501 n lot one Township of Sparta County of Sussex New Jersey it also displays three different distinct images on it um the zoning map the tax map and an area map in addition to that it has some additional um owner applicant information approval for signature as well as list of property owners and listed utilities um the next sheet which is the CO2 is a site plan by the way the date on the cover sheet is um September 24th 2023 um so what do we have we have a a corner lot that as I said earlier that that basically sits at the intersection of 517 and Sparta f it is an improved lot it has currently uh if I count him correctly 22 parking spaces it's a single level building with a with a basement to it it has a access direct access off of Sparta Avenue and basically as you enter into a call it the the the adjoining of the site between the one on the left side and the one on the right side specifically our application is for the property on the left side then you make a left and enter the parking lot at which point you can park on the left hand side which is facing spara Avenue and access uh the tenants that occupy the building or you can continue straight up towards 517 towards a parking that's parallel to 517 or make a r into additional parking that are facing the building the building is split into three units uh currently there is a spot of Pharmacy that occupies the corner of the building which is the I would call it the southwest corner of the building the other two units the the northern unit and the Southeastern corner of the building are vacant have been vacant for some time specifically the northern unit has been vacant for approximately four years and the southeast corner unit has been vacant on and off but for about a couple of years at this point um basically um the the tenants visitors anybody that's accessing the site can make a turn come back and exit the property onto spart Avenue and from there either go up to the to the traffic light and make a right or left on 517 or make a left and come down spart Avenue to wherever their destination may be we also have on this sheet CO2 two is basically the zoning information that discusses what we have zoning wise and we also have the current parking breakdown of what we have what we relied on and what we uh reached in terms of what is required for parking for our use for that purpose um beyond that she see 03 basically is an elevation of building specifically the two units that are currently vacant that we are proposing to um um have your approval on uh there are no tenants there is no lease at the present time for either one of those units but as we anticipate if we do receive the approval or when we receive the approval hopefully that we would be in a position to negotiate with potential tenants uh for the occupancy of these two units there's been a lot of questions about it and U the questions have been in favor of hey can we put a restaurant in those units can we put something an Eatery food kind of a business and of course what drove the owner to allow us or ask us to submit and come before you tonight to discuss the site plan what we show here on sheet CO3 is a proposed sign up above in in lower than the peak of um of the A-frame portion of the building that sign for the um unit that faces 5117 is 6t wide by 2T High approximately 12 square ft and the sign for the unit that would be on the this is a northern unit this one would be on the Southeast corner is approximately 4 10 in by 1 7 in um that's the reason why we should this plan and the elevations corresponding to it besides those two signs uh Mr n are there any other exterior changes proposed at this time no none that's the um the only change that we are proposing to the exterior of the building okay and to the site itself um beyond that we also submitted the existing as buil condition was provided to us by our client uh this was not prepared by our firm the native group rather that a surveyor that did the As buil following the construction of the site and um it depicts again the existing building and the parking very much very similar to what we are proposing so you can see the difference that we're not making any change to the site uh with our proposed site plan now just looking at that you referenced it before when you pull in off the the street uh you go to the left and come to this building in this property um if you went to the right who owns that property in that building yeah so if you go to the right of the property this specific lot is also owned by the same owner different entity but it's the same owner that owns the uh the building that we are discussing tonight okay and then in between them there's a 40ft wide EAS that provides access to a property undeveloped property in the rear it's in the Northeast part of the quadrant so as you can see North pointing in that direction so this property up here is an undeveloped uh piece of land but there is a 40ft wide easement between both of the our client's property that provides access to that undeveloped property in the rear um Mr if I could so so that was submitted with the package that drawing yes okay Mr D do you mind if I ask a questione the the asil shows and aerial imagery shows that the the rear portion of the building on the east side of the building is a paved parking area the updated site plan that shows the proposed restaurant use there's nothing back there uh it's it may not be curved or anything like that but there's there's nothing behind the building but the asilt shows that it's an area and the aial show that people Park back there so is there any proposal for what's going to go it's a paved area I'm assuming it's included in the calculations for the impervious is it going to be utilized towards parking towards loading sure good question so it is it is currently paved I'm I'm pointing to the as build but I can also point to to our site plan it is the area immediately behind our building so it's a plan sheet North if we can Orient it in that manner and that area is currently paved has been paav for uh years that provides access to the basement of this building so there is a doorway entrance to the basement uh that can be accessed from that location a lot of the employees tend to park in that in that sphere or additional paid area and do you plan towards plan it towards using that to contribute to the parking count we we yes we are we have not delineated exactly parking spaces but the the owner would like to use it for our proposal in addition to that would be employee parking designated that they can stack the parking in the back okay that would be helpful to know thank you sure and and along those same lines Mr nater I mean excuse me can you use the mic please yeah um along those same lines uh how many spaces do you think you could uh put back there in the area that the planner has just discussed with you like I said if the intent is to stack vehicles in the back you could literally put up to nine or 10 Vehicles one behind the other right and and if you were going to do that I I assume the that type of volume you'd probably just have designated for employees correct that is correct I think it would be helpful if there was any kind of details related to maybe striping them as tandem spaces maybe including signage that says employee parking only because the the parking requirements in the ordinance don't um delineate between employee parking and you know tenant parking and um visitor parking it's all in one so I think those parking spaces could you know be considered um by the board and I think could could help um you know as part of the application to know that information certainly yes we can we can certainly add that to to the fact okay thank you um so in addition to that we have we have also submitted our updated survey of the property uh it's basically identified a one plan of survey of the property depicting uh the planimetric features if I may call them that way which are the curbing uh we do not show the delineated parking but we show the area of parking we show the building we show the sidewalks and we also as the planner alluded to is the P parking area behind the existing building and it certainly shows the U the property lines shows the 40ft access easement in between both properties leading to uh the undeveloped property in the rear chose also um the right away for 517 and Sparta Avenue Now using relying on that Mr nater um there was some suggestions or or questions uh raised about additional Landscaping um you've looked at that correct I have yes and what's your opinion on that I mean the site is landscaped it's fully landscaped uh you know over time there may be one or two shrubs that ultimately die because they're proximity to uh uh where we sand and salt the parking and uh if there's a need to fill in an area certainly would be happy to suggest that and um and have the client uh add those but other than that the property is fully landscaped it has mature trees on it it has mature shrubs on it um that that span uh the entire perimeter facing route 517 there is a tree very uh good siiz tree which is next to the elevated sign along uh Sparta Avenue and then on the lower end of things because the site basically drops down from the adjacent roadways uh you've got a lot of shrubberies and um uh ground cover that occupy that area between the parking and the r aoy all right so to the extent the board might have some suggestions or the planner or Mr Simmons has some suggestions we wouldn't be adverse to additional Landscaping where appropriate I would say where appropriate like I said where we have to have some infill areas we're happy to do that um if you can we've talked about it what are the dimensions of the parking spaces that are currently being provided uh there again it's an existing it's an existing facility so they do vary um they're not exactly um uh 9 by 18 they're a little bit more than N9 a little bit more than 18 they're about 19 in change sometimes 9.2 sometimes a little bit less so they're not exact dimensions again it's an existing parking we're not proposing to to change the parking or change the delineation of parking uh currently parking requirements are approximately 9 by8 everywhere else that we deal with in in in the State uh so they do meet the parking requirement Dimensions okay um now if we go back to your I think it was a second uh hold on I have it here [Music] c-2 um if you want to go back to that and I just I just want to focus in on the size and and the location of the two proposed restaurant sites um Mike if I may I'll I'll let I'll let Karen address those because she she has all that information so she can address all right so that that works out better all right um then what Le what do you have left uh I think we're pretty much done right no I think pretty much done the only thing I have have left in here is basically what we also submitted we also submitted to the board which is a layout interior layout of uh the two uh restaurants it is sheet a-100 uh Karen will Karen will will touch base on those and talk about it um you had an Mr Simmons had issued a report July 22 2024 um have you had a chance to go through that and there is there uh any comments or anything you need to add or or discuss based on that report or we're willing to accept it as is I did look at it I didn't have an issue with it certainly we'll we'll discuss uh uh some of those comments with Mr Simmons and make sure that we come to an agreement but yeah in general I don't have an issue with them um and I think and I I think we've discussed at least those aspects of um Katherine's report that fall within your uh expertise I believe correct that is correct yes I don't have um I don't have anything further for uh Mr nater at this time all right thank you I'll Stick Around well you they may have question oh all right okay so why don't we uh bring it to our professionals sure Mr you want to start I'll good I'll get started thank you um You' mentioned that um you're not proposing to change anything about the existing parcking layout but are is the applicant proposing to restripe the parking lot no okay I think the condition of the striping isn't necessarily clear at least looking from aerial photos and going out to the site that I don't know the last time it was updated I do you know the last time the striping was done I don't know okay I think it could be helpful as part of the site plan to have especially because parking is a concern um and something that was raised in my memo that it could be helpful to have the parking spaces more uh more delineated by you know an updated striping not saying you have to re change the striping just a restriping of the lot to help update it um and with that being said I think that largely has to relate to the the parking that's included as parallel spaces along the southern side of the building along the access easement some of those are within the access easement the striping extends into them I don't know if that's permitted I did not review the access easement to see what is allowed and what's not allowed but considering um that it's utilized to get to the back of both of these sites I have to imagine that um there might be some sort of restriction on it and I'd like that to be checked um and I don't believe currently that those spaces those parallel spaces are striped I don't see a problem striping them um all throughout the parking lot I think it's a it's a valid suggestion and we'll take a look again uh at the um title binder to see if there was any language within that easement that um prohibits any any use or any delineation within that EAS okay and then as far as the um the striping I don't see if where there's any kind of um striping for the handicap handicap spaces so the accessible spaces should have you know uh striping on the pavement to show this absolutely so per Adai um and then the you know the major issue that was raised in my report really was that the parking count for the use um within the order there's two two requirements you base it on the ratio for based on the number of seats and then the ratio based on the number on the square footage and then it says the determination is basically made by whichever is greater to be conservative um I think only the count for the seats was provided I hope to hear more from the architect about some of the space that contributes towards that because there are exceptions for the kitchen area and the prep areas um that may not necessarily rise to the level of parking spaces that were calculated in my report but um I think we do need to know that I think that's probably one of the major uh functions of this board is going to be determined how the if the parking does match up with um the for the site and if any variances are required as a result yeah uh understood I think once both testimonies by the planner and by the architect are given certainly any questions to myself I'll be happy to answer but the board will see that there is there would we would not have the need for that count of parking uh that was suggested U you know in the letters that were issued okay thank you very much of course okay Mr Simmons yes sir Mr chairman again referring to the report I prepared dated July 22nd 2024 uh the applicant touched on several of the items in my report again I would say I agree with M serit that parking is the main issue on this particular application uh I did point out that there are certain uh existing conditions that don't meet the current requirements with regards to minimum parking size space size uh aisle width that type of thing uh and that goes to a question of circulation around the building especially when you get to the back uh end of the parking lot that wraps around two sides of the existing building uh with regards to Landscaping one of the main thoughts that I had was during my inspection it's in need of Maintenance so I would suggest that that be a condition of any approval the board might consider um with regards to lighting uh I didn't see and I may have missed it but I didn't see any lighting noted but what I would like to see just to see how it Compares with the current lighting requirements is for some field meas measurements of foot candles throughout the parking lot just to see if you've got a minimum of a half foot candle throughout the parking area and if we don't then it could be augmented with some additional lighting uh with regards to utilities they are on the Township's Water and Sewer uh with regards to that Improvement I would anticipate but I think it's in the county Health Department's jurisdiction that with a restaurant uh they would probably have to splice in a grease trap uh because of that type of effluent going into the sewer system to avoid any clogging up of the Township's sewer collection system uh subject to any changes that happen here at the board they're not proposing any additional impervious area so there's no change in the storm drainage uh with regards to signage I know uh Mr nater actually pointed out what they were talking about with the facade signs there is an existing freestanding sign out there with a small plate for for the pharmacy uh perhaps you could add a detail what size plates would be for the restaurant or restaurants if two were uh talked about uh any new HVAC and this may be for the architect HVAC units going in no I think that both units are are basically heated and cooled via existing units and existing right now there are existing units right now yep okay talked about the sign uh do you know if there's a separate line going in for fire protection for sprinkler system or is one proposed I'm not sure if the space the size of the units that we have would require a sprinkler system I think um probably will defer see Karen's opinion on that okay um and other than that I have the standard conditions as far as other approvals that they would need but again going back to it uh I did make a site inspection and as M armit said I saw the paved area in the back of the building uh it's not striped right now uh there were a couple dumpsters back there looks like a loading zone and I was curious before I went back there when it shows it's delineated from the regular parking by a wall uh I wasn't sure how high that wall is it's a high wall you're not going to come down through from the upper parking area so I agree with Katherine's recommendation to have the delineation of whatever parking or loading and dumpster area you're going to have back there so we can quantify that especially if there's got to be a waiver exception if it was going to be double stack parking for employees only that's my report Mr chairman thank you all right let's bring it back today I want to start to the left Brian we gonna start with you on this time uh yeah my major concerns are the parking and circulation of the traffic on the the site and um sorry my major concerns are parking and uh the circulation on the uh the site do you what plans do you have to get to the uh required numbers well we haven't discussed what what is the required number like I said we're waiting until the rest of the professionals provide their testimony in support of why we don't need that many parking spaces okay um and also as far as the restaurants do you know the the hour that they may be operating and how what impact that might have on the sparta Pharmacy so they're they're not a full type of restaurants we're not looking for sit down restaurants this is more of a counter type of restaurant that will be or eery or food place that will be uh seeking to occupy the the faking spaces at the present time so okay it's not something that you're going to go in you're going to sit down and you would be waiting on it's actually up to a counter you order and if you want to sit down you can sit down if you don't want to you can take it and leave uh but it's also meant for people that are coming back from work if they want to order stop by pick up their food and leave so it's not a sit down restaurant okay so there's be a lot of In-N-Out traffic yes so it will be traffic that would be in and out but it's also going to be we anticipate a lot of pedestrian traffic as well okay you know you are in the in the Town Center Zone which basically promotes that kind of use which is a okay um I'm I'm good for now so um I don't know if this my this question is for you since we we did mention fire suppression and the potential for for Sprinklers and we didn't know whether or not that was that was um evident or required um but my thought is given that that these are going to be restaurants that you would want some type of fire suppression Incorporated to the building whether it was required or not um I mean Sparta Diner just had a major fire um and didn't have adequate fire suppression in order to be able to to put it out so that's definitely concern of of the community um especially with uh with an an existing you know facility um we we acknowledged that but when I'm sorry didn't mean to just just asking if that that would be a consideration if it's deemed that it's not not required so you know just hoping that that would be a consideration you know moving forward every restaurant anywhere that you're going to have a a hood system in a restaurant has its own fire suppressing system that's a requirement no matter what size no matter where it is that's a requirement aside from that it not every restaurant you are required it is very costly to run sprinkler system all throughout so if it's not required by code it's very hard to press upon owner to install a sprinkler system but if it is required by building code certainly um they have to do it but I the kitchen itself will have a when I say the kitchen the the hood anywhere that there's going to be any food cooking any frying any deep frying any anything that preparation of food uh under the hood would be fire suppressed which which I appreciate um but you know electrical fires other types of situations happen and and you're you're also talking about an existing building that yes you're going to do interior renovation on and so on but you're also right next to a very heavily wooded space and other adjacent buildings so I was just asking if it could be a consideration regardless I'm happy to speak to the owner and uh I I can't render an opinion on that so I'm I'm happy to relay that to him and I appreciate it thank you of course absolutely that's what I have thank you I'm I'm good good right now okay um if you look at spot 19 and there are doors those are existing doors is that going to be the entrance to one of the restaurants spot 19 and I'm sorry and then you look across from there to the building and there are existing there's doors is that going to be the entrance that is the entrance to that unit yes okay okay so let's just take spot 19 say it's 9 by 20 9 by8 whatever it is how much room from the end of the line is there to the wall and what is the requirement because I could tell you I've been in these spots and I can't back in and out without a couple little K turns cuz I have a large car and when there's a large one next to you you're stuck and that's your entrance so you have mean the retaining wall I'm assuming you're talking about okay so the retaining wall is actually separated from spot 19 by if you notice cross-hatch area it's almost the size of the parking space if not slightly bigger all right so take spot 18 I just want to know from the end of the line if you're backing out how much room there is to you hit the retaining wall and what is the requirement in the current codes let me get my scale skill and then I can tell you so from either spot uh 18 or 19 it varies from approximately slightly less than 22 feet to about 21 feet so you're at 19 you're about 21 feet back in and at 18 you're a little bit more than 21 you're slightly less than 22 and as you go down the plan uh to spot number 14 the distance increases so from the end of the strike to the retaining wall is about 21 ft correct and what is a usual requirement for turning so preferably it's 24 ft yeah cuz it's tight I know it's tight and it just I'm I'm thinking of the cars that are going to be coming in and out in and out in and out well currently there are cars coming in in and out in and out well when you're talking about a pickup restaurant and people coming in um it makes the circulation a little more difficult and I don't see anything that is being done to address that problem um and I know even with the two areas vacant it's still even hard to find a spot there so the parking is an issue for me but I if you could talk a little bit about the number of customers that you're having and the hours of operation and uh yes I can if you would allow me once the um the other professionals come back I'll come back to that question and answer it I will touch base with the owner and get the exact uh answer to that question okay then I'll I'll wait for the rest of my questions okay I thank you oh by the way the reason why I say that because the owner is stuck in Canada he would have been here tonight but he wasn't able to make it that's why I'm I keep saying I'll touch basic we're not we're not trying to be evasive yeah okay that was my first question will the owner be appearing here so you answered that thank you um so you're going to get to more of the operations number of employees per restaurant of this size what would you expect can you answer that it it's it's a it's a small restaurant it's it's not a it's again and we're not looking for sit down so basically the max we would be looking at is three uh depending on the time of the day so during the day may may only be two people in the restaurant working one inside one outside and as the you know crash time I guess call it comes up there may be in need for a third person to be present the existing parking is there 22 spots is that what the number is today so currently there are 22 spots do we have a sense for the current utilization of those available spots today by Sparta Pharmacy with the two vacant tenant spots um I can tell you much less I've been to the site several times and probably the max I've seen is about four cars uh possibly five cars if I missed one but I haven't seen any more from my personal visits to the s I'm sure that varies by time of day and I I'm sure there is no doubt I have no doubt okay I I'll Reserve uh additional questions for later thank you sure I do have one question and again I'm not sure I'm sorry I I'm I'm not sure if you're the person to answer that but um the restaurants do we know if they're serving breakfast lunch and dinner or is it just um lunch dinner so what I know is that it would be just lunch and dinner no breakfast okay yeah thank you okay a couple questions so um relative to to the um the parallel parking on the side uh towards the the other party the other the other building so there's a cross eement there that allows for that is there anything that would prevent that cross E from ever going away if the other building is being sold um if you're saying the other building the one across the street yes well what we had discussed and what the principle of both of them talked about is giving a formalized cross to ement that would allow for parking on either side and and it's our belief and Mr McDonald will expand upon it as your ordinance actually recognizes that as a as a permissible solution so if there's a cross easement that is prepared recorded um th that easement would run with the property so even if these two lots were under different ownership the easement would survive much like this 40 foot access easement has continued for what week best we could tell for decades so so if I understood that right it sounds like there it doesn't exist now but your your application is based on that you would obtained that as part of the application yeah I I I suspect Mr chairman people probably do it anyway um because if you look and again Mr McDon will talk about I mean you could go from Sparta Pharmacy and go all the way down to the Burger King and you know just keep hopping through everybody's property um but I don't our research not suggest there was any formalized easements to do that but at least for the two properties that um our client controls he would be willing to uh prepare and record a cross seasment okay um going back to the questions on the uh I don't know if I can hear the parking spaces and in particular I want to focus on I think it was uh 18 19 the on towards the front um I think you had mentioned that the aisle width was somewhere between 22 ft and 21 ft um I believe the ordinance requir is 24 so would you be seeking a waiver for that um we would be seeking a waiver yes okay it's an existing condition and it's um something that unfortunately cannot be modified because of the Pres present um existence of a large retaining wall that basically U is situated along the that perimeter of the property which is fronting onto County 57 okay and relative to the uh the other side do you know what the awith is over there relative to the paral spaces I can also that aisle width is 24 ft but this is relative to the parallel spaces towards the building over here is one where the easement is this is the parking spaces that are fronting right I think I'm I'm talking towards the the side of the building on this year yes which spots 20 and 20 20 through 22 Yeah let me look so what what would I be measuring from uh 20 through 22 correct I understand to to the OD width to where so so there should be a uh aisle width for parallel spaces there's a design standard I I believe it is 12T so is there a 12T with the easement is it a 12T a with with oh yeah definitely because it's it's a 40ft wide easement I mean granted that we are encroaching on that easement at different locations certain areas by approximately 3T in another area by approximately 4T but also across the street there are head-on parking to the building across the street they're not delineated currently on this one but let me see if the asilt shows it okay the asil doesn't show it either but what we could do is we can um uh there is a called out Dimension from the it's not the parking but it's from a portion I guess of a I don't know what that is I'm sorry it's about 29 29 1/2 ft to the building um on the adjacent lot okay normal par parallel parking is about 8 ft wide certain other ones are about 7 ft wide I think our ordinance C call to 12 but it sounds like that you would meet that yes we will meet that yes all right so relative to the second floor of the building um is there any what what is up there what is that used for is there anything there that would generate a need for for parking such as um Professional Services or or other leases there what what is second floor used for I'm not aware of a second floor for this building I there is no second Flo okay so just the outside it look I think it's the way it's designed to look like that all right great thank you yeah it's a it's okay now in terms of the loading spaces is this for the architecture in terms of uh there is I think we're looking for H how will will the um deliveries be made to the restaurants given the parking as it exists now we can designate the deliveries to come to the back to that Park I mean paved area in the back behind the building and basically bring whatever deliveries right to the front into the restaurant uh we can suggest that no deliveries be made while vehicles are parked in the in the aisles uh if they have the ability if it's a small delivery with a small van or small UPS truck they can pull into the parking space that's fine but outside of that everybody else would have to go around the back and bring their dollies into the delivery to the restaurant is is there a loading space on the site so there isn't like I described earlier there is an area behind the building it's sort of North Northeast of the building uh that's a very large area that is currently paved that provides access to the basement below um and that area can be used we talked about employee parking can also be used for uh loading and vehicles can come in pull in basically take their merchandise into the building come come back they can back up into that drive V and then exit the property okay um I apologize a bunch of question you I think you would mention relative to the pharmacy that they have uh roughly about four cars there at a time I think our ordinances based on the square footage require that there's eight that that considered in in the total parking plan so when we do the final parking plan that's got to be the allocation unless somebody feels is there's a reason that that's not the right right answer so yeah we did take that into account in our calculations based on that square footage of of the pharmacy all right and then the last question I have um so I believe there's one Ada space uh on the site right now so given the change of use I believe this building was approved for retail now we're looking to bring it into restaurants does that require any additional Ada spaces based on the New Uses uh for the size of the building and the number of parking spaces one one is enough if you're at 50 or below one parking space 1888 parking is what is required certainly we'll look into it to see if there would be any additional need or if we would want to add one more regardless uh but that's what we currently have okay if you could take a look at I appreciate one thing I I I I probably should have mentioned earlier and you'll see it on the agendas so we we don't start any new testimony after um after was it uh I think 945 9:45 so we're not going to be able to get the the um the architect up tonight okay um but I'd like to finish at least the questions here um if we could and then uh you know give you we get a chance to kind of figure out what the next step is okay yeah I TI It Up on uh what the chairman uh was talking about you say the distance between the the other the building next door yes and and the parallel parking spot is 29 and2 ft that's what's shown on the ASU um that was prepared and you have straight on parking over there which are 20 foot deep parking stalls they're about 18 ft right that gives you how much room to back in and back out the dimension is not shown from the parallel parking it's shown from certain something I couldn't read it on the plan as to what it is um if I look at it we have mention on our survey survey that we prepared basically we have 5.3 ft from the edge of the building out to the to our property line and then you have a 40ft wide easement and then you have an additional 4.8 ft to the shortest corner from the adjacent building to their property line so if you add it all up you've got five plus 40 is 40 5 + 4 is 49.8 point3 so you have 50 ft from building to building if you take 7t wide for a parallel parking and if you take 18 that's 25 out of 50 you'll end up with 25 ft remaining in the middle all right um I I think I'd like to just see the full parking plan with the with the dimensions um right now there's on on the plan here there's 18 spots marked out plus the three parallel parking get you to 21 um depending on what drawing I look at because on another drawing it gets you to 22 so they're even the drawings are inconsistent also uh I I think I'm not sure marking out the uh that back lot for additional parking would would help as well to get us to a picture of where we really are with parking because it's uh depending on what I look on Google Maps and you know to to see what the parking lot looks like I I get different numbers between two different sheets that you have here and and what I'm seeing from an aerial photo you know so I think we need more info on the parking as far as like accurate our plan is based on on physical survey of of the property but as I said there we have two drawings here that have different numbers one has 18 spots and one has 19 spots in the front of the on the actual on the on the actual uh drawings of the lot not counting the parallel parking I'm talking within the two the lot uh that curves around one drawing you have has in one of these color drawings has 19 Spots I'm looking at this black and white one here that has 18 spots so what is that sheet number what is that is sheet [Music] number well it's it's the final as built is what it is so the asil has one less parking spot than you have so that that's my M obviously our main concern here is parking so I I think we need to really drill down on exactly what what you're proposing for the property to maximize the parking I I count 19 unless we got to come back on all right okay no problem that's fine we we'll double check that remember be the same should be 19 without the the last parking spot is not a parking spot it's a turnaround spot on the asilt they don't have it marked as that but but it is it's it starts right adjacent to to our property line on the right side and then it works its way over so you've got 1 2 3 4 5 6 78 parking spaces and you come over 9 10 11 12 13 come across 14 15 16 17 18 19 okay okay just to follow up 21 is not showing on my map at all I don't know where 21 is 21 what parking spot number 21 it has 20 and 22 all right we'll we'll clear that appreciate come back with a colored map so this way you you know everyone can see say is I think we just need to get a clear picture on on the what how you can maximize the parking um you know and so we we get a clear view of it that's all I'm saying no problem all right thank you yeah I'm going to reserve my questions until further it's the same thing I think the the one thing that we need to focus on is just making sure that we're really smart about the the parking and the the the flow of the traffic um I just focus on that I think for the next time especially remember you have multiple tenants and that ends up being we don't want parking arguments you know what I mean the owner doesn't want Park in arguments so I just have one more question and I know you don't probably won't know the answer but I'm going to ask it anyway was there a traffic study that was done for cars coming in and out here and terms based on the customers that are going to be anticipated there was no traffic study done okay that might be a good idea thank you okay all right so with that again um what I'd like to do spend a couple ex minutes if we could just to give the public a chance to ask questions if you have questions and I like please keep the questions to the applicant in the testimony that was given hi Vivian PE 5 Morgan Drive um Vivan please raise your right hand do you swear a firm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do thank you um first of all the driveway going into this uh proposed thing is it the same driveway from Sparta Avenue or are you having another driveway to come in from 517 it's the same same driveway it's a steep grade it's a steep grade it's the only reason I never switched from CVS to the Pharmacy because I won't go down that um I'm afraid uh will there be a sidewalk for the pedestrians that you're saying will come to this restaurant there is a sidewalk around the building currently that would provide access for pedestrians to come from the new apartment house they would be able to get they still have to go down the driveway don't they um the driveway coming into the site you mean no how else would they get there if they're walking where would they walking down Sparta Avenue from the sidewalk to go down to those restaurants to pick up their food yes there there is a drive a sidewalk all the way down from you mean from the sidewalk on on the road to this site yes no they'll cut through the parking lot they'll have to go down that grade to get they have to walk down that slope driveway with no uh you know cars going in and out right same same driveway cars going in and out and you're saying pedestrians should walk down there too okay um I'm concerned just as you had Spart a diner burn down I'm I'm I'm afraid this kitchen could cause the pharmacy to burn down I mean this is um it has has the the pharmacy agreed that this is a safe tenant for them because right now it Zed if I had built gone into that Pharmacy and and everything was done for retail in the rest of the building and now you're having cooking done you know a restaurant done in that building that's that's a hazard that they are have going to have to face uh it's more likely to be a restaurant Fire than if somebody is selling uh God knows what they sell in stores these days but anyway um and then the last thing that I'm concerned about is every restaurant I know of in this world gets deliveries with these big trucks I see what those trucks look like they're not little UPS trucks that deliver the food food service trucks are very large and are they going to be able to go down that driveway make that curve around with all the cars parked in there are they going to have room to drive all the way around to the back thank you okay um so with that I think we we could we we can kind of pause here and um oh I'm sorry j i Jenny DK's taing into Sparta you s from to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you guys I do thank you sorry to uh Stu in here um I'm looking at the design the um let me go back to my questions is the kitchen a joint kitchen or is that a question for the other that's an architect question um and do we know what the restaurants are or is that a question for the owner owner owner and um so I guess that is those are my questions so you don't have um there also looks like there's um access from that kitchen to the pharmacy is that also an architect question that's okay I think that's everybody I can't see around the board I don't think there anybody over there he's with okay better not have any questions Mr chairman I just have one comment that they and I were talking about and that is um with the proposal to use the back parking lot for parking and that means you're using the driveway the common driveway for access to it and with these issues about the um striping of the parking spaces for both this lot and the lot next door I really think the applicant should um notice for the other property as well that's the uh property of the right because the easement or driveway is on that lot and when in the case law you're supposed to notice from any easements you might be using now but to add on to that a little bit to the extent that these properties can Will have a common driveway and shared parking Arrangement then that lot ought to be brought into the application just to help even just to count the number of total parking spaces that could be um used by both properties which probably does happen in reality because they are so inter they they are intertwined inextricably is the way to put it and they're never going to be separated because they can't be in a in the sense of the driveway so I think that might help you actually then focus on what parking spaces there are and what can be added and what the Access Lane withd will be uh because 24 ft would normally be the minimum Access Lane um so just a suggestion but in a minimum I think you do have to notice for the Jason Property I I don't disagree with Mr Collins and we will I don't disagree with Mr Collins uh suggestion uh we will um Ren notice to incorporate that additional uh lots and um we will when we resubmit a revised parking plan uh not only will we make sure we get it right on our property but we'll incorporate the adjacent property as well now we try to pick a date certain Mr chairman um just for our own calendar and their their availability as well yeah I'm just looking so D I get some help here I think when I look at the calendar um so the next meeting we've got we got a few and then 94 I think we've got two or two or three so we're probably looking at the meeting after that now do do you know what we have there that would be the 18th of September do you have anything scheduled there can you think of no okay so would September 18th work for you yeah well yeah so yeah the I think the 18th will be fine uh that'll also give us the 18th will be fine that will also would you turn it off I turned it off the 18th of September will be fine uh and that will give us uh sufficient time as well to uh Ren notice and submit a uh the revised plans 10 days before that so uh the board engineer and planner will have time to review okay thank you you're welcome okay Mike you carry it extend the time frame for action until the end of September 2024 absolutely thank you right so we're wrapping up Mr chairman I think on this one so we'll carry it but there will be no notice but we'll just for the people that are here we'll carrying this hearing on the um RZ and Company LLC application to September 18th at 700 p.m. um but the applicant will Ren notice okay thank you thank you thank you have a good evening thank you for the rest of your summer thank you all right that leaves us one last uh B on agenda I'm going to ask if there a fol if we can try to keep it short if you can but are there any any uh comments uh from the public do I have to swear again no that's not a hearing now I I came today to um plead with all of you to take very seriously safety and traffic in this town on any consideration no matter who I don't care how big they are how beautiful they are how famous they are I don't care they can threaten to sue you you must consider safety and traffic to be a top consideration and also I wanted to remind you that our new police chief who is been on top of these accidents he's made a um I know Dean knows that he has categorized all the crashes in our town where they have taken place how many crashes which are the places that have the most crashes and he can testify in the past we've had only the traffic officer testify but we should keep in mind that we can call the police chief now to testify because he done this work and he can testify as to which areas of our town have the most crashes and crashes mean that people may be injured or killed and we have to really think of that and if we approve more construction whatever building they want to build and again I don't care how how wonderful they are you can't approve of no matter even if they cry you have to listen to the police chief and to the traffic engineer very carefully because once someone is killed they are actually dead thank you okay any anybody else thank you Vivian okay so seeing none I think we uh are ready to adjourn may I have a motion to adjourn motion to adjourn tell second any second all in favor say I I I all opposed or Asain say nay I'll let the record show all in favor have a good night everybody good night thank you