##VIDEO ID:q08ljA9qSAs## meeting of the sparta Township planning board this meeting is now called to order for the record this meeting is being held on November 6th 2024 at the sparta Township Municipal Building located at 65 Main Street Sparta New Jersey the time is now 7 o'clock it's important to note that the live stream for this meeting may be viewed on YouTube at public notice of of this meeting was provided in accordance with the open uh public meeting act uh so before we start uh the business tonight i' like to ask that everyone please stand and join our our board and our professionals as we proudly begin salute the meeting with a salute to the flag pled allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right thank you everybody uh before we call the the plan board roll call I just want to make note that we're fortunate to have some uh special guests joining us tonight so I'd just like to take a moment to to recognize everybody uh we have members for the sparta Township uh Town Council join us tonight so welcome mayor Clark our Deputy Mayor de buety who's always here with us as a member of the planning board as well as councilman Dan cherella so uh welcome gentlemen we've also got Mr Jim Zep and Mr our spart of Township uh town man Mr Cory Stoner who is our Township engineer so welcome gentlemen uh and Jean and Jean I apologize M thank you director of our Our Town Parks and Recreation so thanks for being here uh we're also pleased to have several members of the environmental commission with us tonight we have Kimberly Noel who is the chairperson uh as well as Neil Salin who Salin who's the vice chairperson uh sitting with us so um I was going to have you introduce people maybe we'll do that when we do the roll call sure okay uh so so um with that uh if you could could we please call the role sure Justin caneles here Ernie ragat here Christine dumbar here Mike Sylvester here Vice chairman Bill Enright here chairman Ronde here Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti here Joan Ferman here Janette Burke here Celeste Luciano here Brian Zimmerman here and thank you Miss Franklin for joining us tonight all Miss to be here so thank you for filling in appreciated Mr chairman Mr chairman we should also confirm that this is a joint meeting with the township Council and notice of the council meeting was given by the Township Clerk in accordance with the open public meetings act uh and Ursel Leo uh Tom Ryan's partner is here for the township Council it's also happens to be a joint meeting with the environmental commission and it's a good combination of groups so okay thank you for that uh Kim do you want to call the role for the environmental commission yes thank you councilman Dan trelli trell Kimberly null here Vice chair Neil sourwine here Christine Dunbar here Ted Gul here Christine Rogers here Linda Tower here Barbara kazaka Linda taneri here Rob Otto here and John Gra thank you okay thank you okay so I think we've got all the introductions out of the way um so tonight um we're going to be talking about three topics each having a potential impact on shaping sp's future the three topics will include the environmental commission's proposed update to the open space and Recreation plan which is an element to the master plan we're going to have a discussion on pdm2 the max building size and adding some some new required impact statements and then lastly we'll have a discussion on ordinance 2416 which was introduced at the October 24th Town council meeting this ordinance uh pertains to pering six various use classifications of cannabis within Sparta Township uh we don't have any public hearing schedu scheduled uh for tonight and that was done to sure we had the proper time to address to all all of these subjects so uh to Brent everyone happen to listen to me ramble on further I'm just going to turn the meeting over to um Kim noell and if you can start with the open space plan it' be greatly appreciated thanks so much Ron I don't like to beat around the bush so I'm going to be right up front with what we want the goal of tonight's meeting to be um the environmental commission is joining the planning board for the second Public Presentation of the sparta township open space and Recreation plan of 2024 ultimately the goal is to have the planning board adopt this plan in the December meeting before the end of 2024 I know the public planning board council members and Township employees have had access to the plan for several weeks already but this forum allows for the opportunity to ask questions make recommendations in real time and a conversation is always the best in fastest way to get any questions resolved I also want to reiterate why the extensive revisions of the previous open space plans was undertaken um Barbara who will introduce in a moment will give us some more details on that but basically in a nutshell the previous plans were either outdated quite old or um not comprehensive therefore if you don't know what you got then you can't protect or preserve it in order to have a comprehensive view of the beautiful open spaces and recreational spaces that we have this plan was necessary the second purpose of the plan is to solidify our open space goals this was done with input from the public various Township departments and various commissions and committees this is the third the third reason is to create a prioritized list of actions to be taken by Sparta this revised open space plan takes the current environment residents needs and funding possibilities into consideration therefore the blueprint to follow is designed to meet our current needs in 2024 and Beyond I do want to take a minute to recognize the huge amount of people that were involved in building this plan first there was grant money supplied by New Jersey Highlands water and protection planning Council thank you to the Town Council for approval to move forward I want to thank every resident that took the time to share their feedback and insights I want to recognize the osrp subcommittee which is Neil sourwine Christine Casco Corey Stoner Christine Dunbar and Linda Tower and the entire environmental commission for the valuable input and revisions the tax accessor office and did much review of deeds and tax records Jim Zep and his office including Michelle landow for additional research and assistance Jean Monto Monero for leading amazing tours of our Parks and Recreation areas and insights into the town's needs and finally Barbara Davis from the Land Conservancy of New Jersey for leading Us in this journey I've really appreciated your extensive knowledge and your clear lead leadership and guiding us through this process so Barbara I'm going to turn it over to you for further introductions if I stand up I'm gonna use this can you hear me and as it get through if I stand up you guys you're okay all right just want to make sure I'm just more comfortable standing up all right so my name is Barbara heskins Davis I'm a licensed planner and I work for the Conservancy of New Jersey we were hired by Sparta Township to update its open space and Recreation plan just to give you some faith that I know what I'm doing the Land Conservancy has written 220 land conservation plans of which over a hundred have been open space and Recreation plans and I've been involved with each one of those I've wanted to work in Sparta for a really long time and I was very excited and appreciative of the opportunity to to work here I live in Randolph so I'm a neighbor of Sparta Township I've hiked here I've shopped here I've eaten here and it's really nice to get to know the town just a little bit better so what I want to be able to do tonight is to present your open space and Recreation Plan update I'm going to drill down to some of the things that I want to make sure that you hear from me tonight and that I have a chance to answer what I have before me are the decision makers within the municipality and I'm going to take full advantage of that opportunity as I mentioned I've done a lot of open space and Recreation plans there's only one town that has had a joint meeting with the environmental commission the governing body and the planning board to review that plan and that Sparta Township so I think you should feel really good about that Barbara if I could I'm going to ask could you is it possible to use that mic only because sometimes when you turn they may not hear it at home home oh oh that yeah that that's easier this one working thank you okay sorry thank you very much oh we're just going to skip over the second slide all right so why are we updating the open space and Recreation plan as Kim mentioned we're updating the open space and Recreation plan basically because your plans are way out of date your first plan was done in 1997 it was a really good plan in 1997 I want to just reassure you it was a really good plan we used a lot of the concept that were in the 1997 plan to help guide the thought process for the 2024 plan you updated it in 2003 that was okay you updated again in 2020 that was not so your open space and Recreation plan really goes back to 1997 one of the things that we wanted to be able to do right off was to get an idea of what Sparta Township residents really think and of course you can always do more and you can always do it differently but it worked out really well we had a meeting in June and it was attended by both in person and by people on um the YouTube channel and um we did an interactive exercise using the internet so people were able to participate and then we got to talking with the environmental commission almost immediately after the meeting and we said the survey is good it worked why don't we put it out on the website and the town immediately did they put it on the website they advertised it they had it out on social media and we had 334 responses to the survey which is great so we were able to get a more well-rounded view of what residents think in Sparta Township on the slide in front of me you can see in that word cloud some of the words that we heard over and over again the bigger the word the more that we heard schools are important the fact that it's a small rural town community kept coming up over and over again nature safety peaceful landscape open space um it just you can see the words being repeated uh Recreation came up but for those who are filling it out this is my interpretation your Recreation program is so good and your Recreation facilities are so good that I think people take it for um granted so that when they talked about what they needed they added other things so I want to emphasize that even even though Recreation might be in little letters it's not because it's not really important it's because it's so good in Sparta Township so I hope that that makes sense did it work sugars I don't know why you got to click the mouth sorry okay space bar worked okay okay thank you sorry all right so this just gives you kind of a brief history of the Open Space Program I have gone over it in 1997 was your first open space plan you had did start collect ATT tax in 2000 you started at two cents you went down to a cent it's all good um the Scott Farm was preserved in 2002 you did receive three grand Grant awards from Sussex County for three different open space projects and you've had um a good partnership with the Wallkill River watershed management group um for tree planting at Station Park and in 2021 you acquired yoner Landing which is a really neat addition it um connects station it connects the Glenn to a new neighborhood within Sparta Township and in 2024 you got over half a million dollars from Green Acres to put in an all-inclusive Park at Station Park now that all-inclusive playground this is a big deal Green Acres is going to do it in one more round in 2025 it's very competitive funding Sparta is only one of two towns in this area that got that funding so it's um it's a really nice achievement okay so if I was mayor of Sparta and for these couple of minutes I'm going to be mayor um sorry mayor um I want to be able to say how much I brought in in my in my funding right so what has Sparta raised and what has it brought in in outside funding now Sparta's had a very interesting history in terms of your open space program and in your funding program Sparta um has really been a self um funded municipality okay so if you look at the column on the right you raise somewhere around $340,000 a year in your open space trust fund and it's at about a Cent and since 2001 um as of the end of last year you've collected 4.6 million so that's a significant amount of money that you've raised you did get three grants for open space from Sussex County at just under a quarter million and you've preserved several Farms I think six and you've had um just about $860,000 in County Farmland Grants New Jersey as I mentioned you got a Acres Grant and you've also gotten just under a million dollars from the state for Farmland projects so you've brought in um you know almost looks like one two like almost $3 million in matching funds and you have really only gotten Green Acres grants once last year so all of the the land that you have and the parks that you've improved you've done that through a very judicious use of your local open space trust fund so here's your inventory of open space 71% of all the land that's preserved in Sparta Township is owned by the state of New Jersey in a variety of different Wildlife Management areas and preserves and Parks um Sparta Township itself has 310 Acres of what I would consider Parkland ogdenburg interestingly enough owns 66 Acres which I think is part of their heaters Park the pic River Co coalition and New Jersey oton own two preserves that are part of Sparta Mountain you have five Farms that are preserved that are just under 200 acres and here's the kicker this is the last one open space dedications and I'm going to go over this so this is when I start to get a little assertive and since I'm the one talking we're just going to have to all take a deep breath and say that's okay all right so here's your a clip of your open space map so anything that's green is permanently protected regardless of who owns it so you have the Glenn you have Station Park you have kittin Valley State Park which is part of the D state land you have the Wallkill preserve so you can see all of those um in green on your map the RNG e red properties those are the open space dedications just in and around this area um the blue around moris uh lake is owned by the town of Newton's Water Commission um and the brown is preserved Farmland the purple is public property and the pink um is school so you can see the high school and the middle school okay so let's kind of get down to Brass tax here so Sparta Township prior to 2024 had never accepted State funding so what does it mean to have accepted State funding if you accept state funding then you have to put together what's called a recreation and open space inventory or a Rosie or a rosi I say it both ways so a Rosie is a contract between the town and the state that says I the town own all of this land for Parkland and I promise that I will always use it for Parkland forever love the town and you submit it to the state of New Jersey the state of New Jersey signs off on it and then your attorney so Mr Collins is going to put a deed restriction on all those properties that you list on your rosi and file it with the county clerk so if there's ever a problem or you ever need to do a title search the deed restriction comes up and it's always noted as permanently protected um Sparta has resisted having a rosi in the past you've never accepted State funding up until last year now that you've accepted State funding you're required to put together that Rossy so the Rossi um will have to be signed by the chair of the planning board and by the mayor so that's good do we have both both individuals here I'm no longer the mayor that was only for the money part not for the signing part so in doing the open space and Recreation plan you know we follow Green Acres guidelines but we also use you know my experience I've been with the Conservancy for 25 years and I think for the open space and Recreation plan there's really a couple of sections that are most important right why do you want to preserve land your goals that's important your funding again you know what have you raised and what have you brought in what do you want to do with it the recommendations and then this last one what's permanently protected and in Sparta that's a real trick right so in Sparta you don't have a Rossi in place so you're relying on local knowledge to tell you what's a park and what's not a park and you do have Parks you have beautiful Parks you have the Station Park you have the Glenn you have anger Meer Park you have Edison Park there's a whole variety of parks and we went back with Jean and we said Jean what do you identify as a park what do you manage as a park and then we really grilled her we were not very nice to Jean you know we said okay that property is a park what about the property right next to it that's owned by the town she said no we don't consider that a park so we didn't identify it as a park but it's an interesting concept right so the plan in the appendix and I went over this with your engineer lists all the properties that the recreation department agrees is identified managed and used as a park and that's your 310 Acres that does include the three properties that you received County open space funding for because those are restricted properties okay now let's talk about these these open space dedications so they're an interesting group right we didn't know about it when we were doing your plan like I said we were really relying on the 1997 plan and then I thought um I'm not doing my job very well I better look at that 2003 plan so I opened up the 2003 plan and sure enough in the appendix of the 2003 plan they say the town owns 7 I don't know 60 acres of land or that's considered an open space dedication really okay so what is that so we contacted the manager's office and the tax assessor's office and sure enough there's a whole series of properties that are divided into two one Sparta owns and they're part of these open space dedications so they own them outright and two there's a set of properties that are privately owned but when they were developed and through the planning board process they were restricted for open space use so that adds up to about it's actually about 834 Acres because Tom read the plan and identified two additional properties those 800 some OD Acres have to be listed on your Rossi as well so because they have restrictions on them because they were done through the planning board process they need to be listed I spoke to your engineer about about the rosi and um because it's a brand new rosi you should be extra super careful about what's listed and what's on it so if you have um and I don't know so I'm just making this part up like at White Lake let's say there's a waterline that goes through the park that part of the park that has the waterline has to be accepted out from being listed as a park any type of public infrastructure that's on what you consider Parkland do not put on your Rossy because if you have to service that public infrastructure at any point in the future it's considered a diversion so if there's anything that's going to come out of this open space and Recreation plan it's the work that we did on identifying what is permanently protected and why so that you can go ahead and put together that Rossy with confidence that you're listing what really is a park what really is deed restricted and you don't have to go back and forth with Green Acres arguing with them about what is or what is not a park because you've done all that leg work already and your engineer is very well aware of where that public infrastructure Is So the plan has to have a needs analysis and it has to have recommendations so we went and as a direct result of the surveys talked about why open space is important in the mun municipality and we talked about um public health benefits we talked about water benefits natural resources Recreation um wildlife habitat and homeowner value which is a real thing and then we gave a series of recommendations and they're really in these seven buckets we looked at each one of your Parks I think this is the easy lift and we'll talk about that and how to expand them to update and expand your Recreation facilities this is a direct result of the recommendations provided to us by Gan on the tours she was very clear as to what she feels your Parks could use in order to improve and how to do it and also the surveys a lot of people put down different ideas about what they'd like to see in your Parks Trails super important and a great opportunity in Sparta Township as Kim mentioned in her introduction the plan is being um underwritten completely by a grant from the Highlands Council the highlands Council also has funding to do Trails planning and I would very much recommend that the town consider once they adopt this plan to ask the highlands Council to fund a Trails plan I think that that would be a really good next step for the municipality and give you that on the ground information that you're looking for to do the connections that your residents are asking for preserving Farmland connecting wildlife habitat maintaining water quality and supporting native plantings so let's kind of roll through those quick so you grow your Parks there's opportunities in Sparta Township as I mentioned before where you own land right next to parks that you're not using as part of the parks you know in my view I think you are using them as Parks you're just not managing them as Parks angr angerman Park is a really good example of that where you have Municipal property that is not identified by your Recreation Department as really part of the park but on the ground it's really part of your Park and it's an easy lift to increase your um Park inventory Morris Lake the Newton Reservoir I'd really like to see that have a deed restriction on it it's a huge property it's beautiful um right now it has no deed restrictions on it and that's not really a Sparta thing because it's not your land but boy I think you have a voice and talk to the state of New Jersey about doing that really the right answer for the Newton Reservoir is to have the d own an easement on that land and they do that for a whole lot of other water supply sources and I'd really like to see that at Morris Lake another one I'm not sure if we put it in this presentation no another um opportunity that's in the plan is um The Glenn you own a lot of public land surrounding the Glenn I'd like to see that added to the park and as I mentioned the the recreation director had a lot of good comments about um how to expand and improve recreational facilities so we include that in the report as kind of a suggested list Trail connections a lot of trails were discussed um we had several meetings to talk about it there's a lot of mapping in the plan that talks about Trail connections they are listed up here I think there are ways to connect people to resources Within municipality and it can be done easily and there are a lot of good ideas out there um that are that would really be a nice amenity for the municipality and the trails can take all different forms you can have the pave Trails like I think parts of the Walka River Trail by angman would be really nice paved um the connecting the high school and the middle school this Iron Horse Trail the which it would be a rail trail it's a really neat historic type of amenity that would be nice to include it's all publicly owned actually putting an extension where they already own land for the palinska Valley Trail it'd be nice for Sparta to Advocate with the state to do that um so there's different different ideas and Thoughts with respect to Trails preserving Farmland so this is a plug from my other project we're currently updating Sussex County's Farmland plan so um I don't know if anyone from the municipality like Jim hall or Corey Stoner would want to be um on the call Tuesday to talk about Farmland programming for Sussex County but now is a good time to get Sparta um Farms that you want to see preserved identified in Sussex County's plan um so definitely contact me with any questions wildlife habitat we talk about connections for wildlife habitat in the plan water quality um the Land Conservancy actually updated Sussex County's open space plan in 2016 with um an towards water quality preservation and we put that in the report and Native plantings are really important um for the landscape and would make a nice difference so this is kind of where we're at we've written the plan um we're at the second public meeting Green Acres requires to after this meeting we'll provide a final report and then we're hopeful that it'll be adopted next month and um and with that I thank you I'm going to ask that the board ask their questions the council um and then we do have to open it up to the public so thank you right thank thank you very much um what we typically do let me give our professionals a chance if that's okay to ask question and we'll follow it up uh down the Das hereas so Katherine do you want to start sure thank you very much to all the work that was put into this I think it's incredibly uh well done plan uh very thorough includes a lot of information and the only um question that I had was uh related to the last kind of segment you talked about Trails um I didn't know the way that it was presented in the plan was kind of in peac meal and I didn't one of my recommendations would be if there was a Trails an overall Sparta Trails plan to show kind of the existing gaps in connectivity um and then also maybe um beyond the information in the document if it' be possible to make a recommendation that the environmental commission or another uh Sparta committee maybe take on like as a Trails advisory committee or some sort of establishment of something that would help to fill in the gaps for Trails I've seen in other places where um they can help inform um and help create a Trails map that may include um like bike trails ped trails and then also like trails that connect on roadways or sidewalk areas to help build up you know a bigger Trails map yeah I agree with all of your all of your thoughts I really think that that's the next step for Sparta so um I can had a recommendation in the action plan that Sparta consider you know I thought I put it in but I'll double check putting you know putting together a Trails plan and a Trails map and creating some kind of advisory committee to do that so I I'll add that I'll just add to that that we do have a Trails committee um it was founded this year and in fact our next meeting or an inaugural meeting is tomorrow night at 7.m so we we'll get the process underway tomorrow great and thank you again very well done job thank you okay Mr Simmons thank you Mr chairman uh the one part of the plan which I thought was very well done thank you uh that I did want to touch on was the sparta Glenn in the mors lake area uh in particular with regards to the Rossi as Barbara said it's important to identify any existing infrastructure that's there that has to be basically accepted out and just by way of 2C history starting back in 1895 that's when the first transmission main from moris Lake to Newton was constructed and it went under lower Glenn Lake and also down through Sparta Glenn and down to Main Street and then about 8 miles over land through Spartan and over Township to the town of Newton then around the 1950s there was a second transmission main added that was a 16-inch Main and the first part in the 50s went from Newton around Diller Avenue roughly to in back of the sparta Presbyterian Church the cemetery and that's where it stopped and then in the mid 70s and went from that point up uh Main Street up Glenn Road through Sparta Glenn and ultimately up to moris Lake to increase the capacity of water in in or around August of 2000 the flood came through Sparta and wiped the transmission Mains out in Sparta Glenn and as a a result of that when Glenn Road was reconstructed in W haveu uh there was a new 20-in transmission main for about a mile long run from Glenn Road all the way up to Morris Lake Road my point with just highlighting that there's some easements in place for all those transmission Mains and you mentioned before they had to be accepted out so on the journey that water takes from mors Lake all the way to the town of Newton where it go through Sparta I'm sure even on Fox Hollow Lake where there was a new transmission put in there's areas where I think there it'd be important if you're going to do a Rossi to make sure those are accepted out okay thank you anything else that's it right now okay great thanks okay uh Tom anything your part nothing to add Mr chairman nothing thank you I'm fine thank you the plan is brilliant hi good evening quick uh question regarding the funding aspects are the stud any any and all Environmental Studies uh included in the grant funding provided by the state and prior to Endor uh putting these pieces together in place uh one and two the uh maintenance required um you know and the impacts to the town if any is that funded by the uh program as well that's a great question so um I'm going to answer it and if I start to answer it incorrectly if I didn't didn't understand it just stop me okay so Green Acres has several pots of funding um you're doing this plan in order to access the land acquisition pot if you wanted to acquire additional land they also have Park development funding which is where you got the funding for the Station Park all-inclusive playground the third pot is um stewardship funding and um the concept there is that it would be a big project because the minimum ask is 50,000 so you're looking at a $100,000 project so it's really something that if you're going to do a large scale um Park improvement with respect to the Land Management of it um that you could apply to Green Acres for that funding the ongoing maintenance of a park is not covered by state grant funding that's really where your open space trust could be used for Park development and park maintenance okay thank you M Davis thank you for a great presentation I just have a couple questions uh can you give us a little bit more context around sustainable Jersey certification and what the 10 points that we would get for updating the open space plan is yeah that's a another another good question there's a lot of Sparta um that needs to be covered so sustainable Jersey is a program in um in New Jersey that's not run by the state it's kind of Quasi governmental and um I think of the 465 municipalities something like 400 are registered of which Sparta is one and um in order to be certified through the sustainable Jersey program you need to accumulate a certain number of points um that indicate that you're managing and running your municipality in a Green Way um and it's not necessarily green with respect to Natural Resources it could be a whole variety of things if if you have EV Vehicles if you're using um cleaners that are green if you are reducing your paper load um and in this case if you're doing planning that supports um you know protection of your environment so like a natural resource inventory is considered a priority action and is 20 points having an open space plan is 10 points to be I believe to be bronze certified you need 180 points so that this gets you on the path towards that y um you uh gave a some recommendations for some some new facilities and you said consider resident recommendations would would the town be putting out some kind of survey is that how the other towns that you would work with or how how do they get community feedback so it's a good question spart has done it in different ways in 2019 you had a public survey that we we used as part of this and then for the this plan we put out a survey that was very general um that we received a lot of comments you can um do the public Outreach via social media platforms you can have a survey it's really up to your recreation department and your planner um how or whether you want to get public input on Recreation Improvement my suggestion with respect to Recreation Improvement is um to listen to your Recreation director she's she's very good um and you probably should have some kind of plan that you know identifies all of your parks and which facilities and how they can be used some of them are a bit outdated which is not unusual for a town um like like Sparta um but you would benefit from kind of giving it that that thought and that engagement thank you M Davis okay um again thank I I I read the document a couple times and I really enjoyed it because I just never realized said Sparta had such great places in town such so many parks and things to do and you know when I remember when I first moved into town like where do you go for this or where you go for that and this plan laid it out all very nicely so U very well done thank you thank you to everybody um couple questions um so in terms of of the plan itself it's called an update but if if I'm if I'm understanding correctly this is really going to be the plan it supersedes everything that it came before it and just this is the plan this is everything that's uh this is what we refer to going forward correct okay thanks um in the in the plan it was mentioned there was a 2003 update and a 2020 update would it be possible to get copies of those yes great thank you thank you um relative to to Green Space funding and the Ros just want to make sure that that I understand so um so everything I believe it's just Sparta owned part of Township own property there's other um other lands out there uh open space lands that are privately owned and they would not go on the rosi it's just a Sparta Township is that correct no so um anything that's owned by Sparta Township that is used as a park or as part of those open space dedications has to be on your rosi you do own easements on about 300 maybe 400 acres of land and there's a separate SE on the rosi for easement properties so you would have to list those on your Rossi okay okay thanks and the last question I have is so if we were to acquire more properties in the future would they also need to be added to the Rossi or are they outside of the Rossy now so um if you so the rosi has to be current as of 2024 because that's the year that you accepted the state funding um if you decide not to accept state funding um in the future your rosi would stand at 2024 you only update your rosi when you go to next receive state funding through the Green Acres Program okay all right thank you appreciate it welcome uh thank you Miss Davis and the Land Conservancy New Jersey this is uh the analysis and the plan are excellent very comprehensive uh it was like like the chairman said it was wonderful reading through it it was educational and inspirational uh also thanks to the environmental commission and the open space subcommittee uh and all of our Township employees who also contributed I'm sure lots of time and effort um and one one clarification on the sustainable Jersey just to confirm we are bronze certified and we'll need to recertify again in the next year or two um I have one question uh it's about the New Jersey conservation blueprint uh page that's in this document I have some familiarity with the the tool and the the methodology for that how how do you recommend that we use the information coming out of the New Jersey confir conservation blueprint I saw there's a few areas just mentioned in there about where they are in town any recommendations how we go beyond that and incorporate those into some of our planning right so that's a good question so um I told your town manager be prior to the meeting that Green Acres um released updated guidelines for open space and Recreation plans two weeks ago so Sparta is getting in on the the old guidelines which makes me happy the new guidelines emphasizes the use of the conservation blueprint tool so it's a the the question is well placed conservation blueprint is an interesting site so just Google it in order to get on it there's really two benefits to it one is the planning benefit the planning benefit is that there's a lot of information in there about the ecological the community um the water quality benefits you know or value of land and it was done with an input of a lot of different data sources it's really only as good as the information that's put in but the information is pretty good and it gives you a general idea about why a property would be important in several different buckets so that's one value in terms of planning especially I think for the environmental commission as you review development applications it's not a bad idea to go on conservation blueprint and look at that site and see how it falls within their buckets of what important the second advantage of conservation blueprint is the block lot information that it has in there you can really dig down to the parcel level and it has a variety of different layers in it that you can start to pull up and turn on and off that can give you a lot of information about how things connect we use the conservation blueprint tool in nearly all of the mapping in the recommendation section of your plan so you can see how we used did and what we thought was a benefit in trying to identify those interconnections for the municipality so I think it's a really good tool it's not that hard to use um and you would just you know just I think it's NJ Mapp or to but just Google conservation blueprint okay great appreciate it thank you I have a question yes um I on your map I don't show the walkill river coming out of Lake Mohawk until it almost gets to Station Park I've always been interested in developing a a trail along the walkill river but I don't know how to go about doing that so um my suggestion and it it's similar to what I suggested to the planner is that um whenever you do a trail plan the first thing is to walk it you know to go out and walk it and we need better in Sparta Township to show where those Trail connections would be so the conservation blueprint tool might be a good place to start with respect to the mapping it has good aerial photographs in there um you know you do having that trail advisory committee you could bring it up to them um and see if they could take a walk and I would get uh Lake Mohawk uh Country Club involved as well okay I just Echo what everybody else says thank you you did an absolutely phenomenal job and I too enjoyed reading this when I first saw 120 something pages I thought oh but it was I actually did enjoy it um is there any land that Sparta owns that is not listed in the open space dedications that may be for some other purpose yes in the um in the appendix we have a list of all the publicly owned land so there's um there's a table that has the open space dedications and then following it there's a series of tables that lists all the land that's owned by Sparta Township and it's also on the map so I'll be sure to give your engineer um the gis data once we're done so that they can then use that all right great that'd be good to incorporate um my other question is since this open space dedication is going into the rosi um if for some reason in the future we decide we need it for something what is the process okay how long does that take what is involved in turning it back so I would say it's not really a Time issue it's a cost issue so um and I'm I it's not a positive so if you think about it from the perspective of the state of New Jersey a recreation and open space inventory was set up because when the Green Acres Program first started back in 1964 they awarded funds and it was the bigger cities that you know applied for and received the funds in order for these locations to buy the parks they sold off old Parks which was antithetical to what Green Acres was trying to do so they set up this Rossi that was a requirement that they didn't want the inventory of Parkland to decrease so you had to agree that this was all of your Parks so if you're agreeing that these are all your Parks then they set up a punitive system for you if you wanted to reduce the amount of Parkland that you had for whatever reason so they have different um variations of you know what your punishment so to speak would be if you removed Parkland from your Rossi so if it's going to be used for another public purpose you know that has one level if it's going to be used on and it's and it's a public purpose that has a you know an open uh you know a benefit if it's a public purpose that's like for a road maybe not you know you have a bigger um issue if you're going to sell it for private use sometimes they don't know what the punitive damage would be I'll give you an example we were working in East Hover Township and um they have uh lurker Park that goes around um all Wetlands by the pic River and there's a Dunkin Donuts that's on the edge of lurker Park and Dunkin Donuts wanted to expand their parking lot so they they contacted the municipality and said we'd like to purchase 10 15 ft of of the wooded land right next to us and it's owned by the town the town did a title search title search came out fine and the town said sure we'll sell it to you so they sold the 15 feet and someone was having coffee at Dunkin Donuts and knew the history of lurker Park and contacted the state of New Jersey and it turns out that the attorney for that town didn't properly you know um put the Restriction in the title work so that's why the Restriction didn't come up and um the property that the town had sold was not only on the rosi it had been funded with State funds and federal funds and they didn't know what the punitive value would be so the town was able to undo the sale and restore the property in order to avoid any any problem but it's really an issue the other example I can share and especially since your engineer is here this was years ago in chadam burrow or chadam Township but one of the cadams they um had a park and their water line ran underneath the park and they hadn't accepted out the waterline and they needed to dig up the ground in order to replace the piping for the waterline and it was considered a diversion and they had to go to the State House Commission for permission to manage their own infrastructure so um take your time time with the rosi really think it through now's the opportunity to do that if you're unsure of any of the properties that we've identified as an open space dedication we were really clear in the appendix that this was provided by the tax assessor we didn't look at any Deeds that you should do a title search and check the deeds and see what it says so um you're totally on point you want to think now about that property and whether or not there's any other potential use if something has a detention Basin on it don't put it on the rosy you know keep it off because you might have to manage that detention Basin and if green anr comes back and says let it's managed this open space you tell them it's got a detention Basin on it this is a public infrastructure it's you know storm water control so you just like you're you're absolutely on point you just need to be thoughtful about it and take your time now they'll understand okay um as a followup to that what about uh something that's proposed can you ex that out as well maybe propose sewer lines if there are plans down the road that you might want to use as a connection can you as long as you can defend that proposal so if it's in a master plan somewhere for Community facilities map you know somewhere in the municipality you you just want to be able to justify if you have you know um fair share housing agreement and it's part of that I'm just making this up and as part of that agreement you know you agree that you're going to provide water and sewer to that development and it's going to go through the edge of you know one of your Parks then yes you can accept that out and that's the whole point of being thoughtful um as your engineer mentioned though the water mains that go through from one park to another you know those easement are old and you know you'll need to look at those but take your time now Green Acres will will be patient okay is there a timeline that when this Rossy has to be filed um well that's going to be I think Jean will be the right person to figure that out because she applied for the Green Acres funding um so you should talk to your Green Acres representative um because this is a brand new Rossy and you're a mature Town they're going to understand that there's a lot involved um Green Acres and the highlands Council both read your draft open space and Recreation plan I wanted no surprises when you went to adopt it both have approved it and Acres um did read through the recommendations in the report so they're aware of kind of what the issues are that you're going to be dealing with right well thank you very much welcome thank you um thank you again for the very thorough and excellent report um I just have one question um since much of this plan's goals um are to maintain high water quality and practice stewardship and conservation how are we or are we addressing brownfields in town uh for future use and Redevelopment that is a really good question and is one that can be directed to your planner so it's not part of your open space plan but I think it's a really good point all right thank you okay yeah just repeat the question so much of this plan's um um point is to maintain high water quality and practice stewardship and conservation so how are we or are we even addressing Brown fields in town for future Redevelopment yes and um Janette and I had spoke a little bit earlier about Brown fields and also um like known contaminated sites so not every known contaminated site is a Brownfield but um I actually had a chance to look through some of the publicly available data on uh contaminated sites in the town that are active right now so we can get kind of a a threshold idea of what exists um all of those are regulated via the njde so they'll have if they do require cleanup for future development um they'll have what's known as a lsrp a licensed site remediation professional um and they'll have an account so all that's publicly available so if we want to look deeply into that it's not necessarily open space that's more of like an environmental concern um it can be be looped into the master plan that we're working on as well so that there is kind of a point in time understanding of what kind of contamination exists what's been actively looked at by the D um and th those could be a range of things they could be like contamination from a gas station that has underground tanks or a leaking even residential gas tank that might have or sorry oil tank that may have like groundwater contamination or offsite contamination um any sites that are contaminated that are looking to redevelop that are um actively regulated by the DP do have to clean up to certain standards so if it it goes from an industrial use to a residential use or something they have higher standards um even for open space and things like that so um we can Loop that information into the master plan I I think uh I agree this is less of an open space issue but more of a environmental issue great thank you it also would be good to see where they are yes absolutely get if I may I'd like to add I mean they kind of run parallel to support the question I mean as we work this open space Farm pres preservation program a brownfields program goes hand in glove with it it could brownfields gets extra credits extra funding to you know upon remediation to be able to convert into some open space Recreation you get um there the funds that are available get additional funding um Awards based on that that type of you know level of a CLE cleanup and and use so it should be looked at comprehensively and overall with the amount of availability and space we have and Mike is a you know he's an expert in the environment the technical expert so he knows um but there are you know grants and things like that that we can identify in as part of the master plan to talk about um either grants or that the Eda puts out or other kind of uh land conservation incentives to help uh remediate Brownfield sites thank you I don't have a question I just have a comment um really just want to say thank you to everyone involved and I want to say how excited I am about taking this information bringing it to the master plan subcommittee once it's fully adopted and overlaying this on top of our master plan to get us a bit closer to where we really need to be I I I truly thankful and grateful that you guys have put in the time and effort and and you know um the experience and and the information that's here that's so useful to to us so I just want to Express gratitude and I'm looking forward to working very closely with this document in the future thank you I want to thank you as well for the lovely presentation um my questions were answered but I do want to expand a little bit the property north of the Glenn being public property we did confirm that it it is owned by Sparta uh I think it' be wonderful to see some expansion in the Glenn as uh I personally actively use that um and I'll leave it there thank you all right uh before we go to uh to the public uh mayor Clark or councilman L any any questions or comments you like to make thank thank yes thank you um I'll just to make two or one request and one comment I'm hoping that someone from the environmental commission can offer up uh if I can out of you a little bit of update on the sustainable Jersey where we are and where what our next steps are cuz that came up and I think that's an important topic uh the one question I had was as a as a taxpayer who pays property taxes there's four buckets of taxes that come out of your check when you when you cut that check your Municipal Taxes your library tax your county tax and your open fund open space fund maybe I'm missing one but I think those are the four um three of those are governed by a budget so if somebody wants to know where my County taxes are going you have a budget that tells you exactly what's going on Municipal Taxes Library all of those things are governed by budgets to my knowledge we don't have a budget that governs open space so it's a bucket of money that um sits around until someone dreams up a use for it and that's I don't mean to be unkind or or glib about it but um uh it's because it's not governed by a budget I've always thought that that was a Gap in a control that we could have so um I would always was always interested in coming up with a plan for using open space and of course plans can change but as a taxpayer I should see I'm taking that Penny out of my taxes or the $340,000 that we that we accumulate every year out of the taxes and know that this is where we plan to use that money maybe some of it is going to pay off past debts or or service certain bonds and some of it in future we have certain plans for you know Park development or whatever so I guess my question there is does does a open space budget is that common for for municipalities to to adopt and if so does that fit into a open space plan so I think that's a a really good question um in different towns do it differently here's here's my recommendation for Sparta Township you have a very active environmental commission and you have um a group that served as an open space subcommittee to develop this plan so they're very informed as to how the plan was developed and what the recommendations are um I think you should formalize that open space subcommittee as part of the environmental commission and charge them with putting together a recommendation for your Open Space Program um an open space budget is a a good idea um so the Town Council is the one that controls the open space expenditures the advisory committee or the commission can only provide recommendations different towns do it different ways um one of my favorite and I think I mentioned it to the environmental Commission on the tour is Madison burrow what they do with their open space trust fund is that um the open space committee receives applications from different departments and different committees within the municipality and um they review them and provide recommendations to the government in body for expenditures so if they you know if the trails committee wants to put in a new Trail within the municipality they form a budget they provide the open space committee with an idea of how they want it built you know just general and how they see the matching funds and the open space committee provides a recommendations same thing with historic or Rec Recreation and it's a really good way to have Community engagement in your open space program and it's consistent with the recommend a in your open space plan and if it's something that interests Sparta I can certainly connect you with the chair of that open space committee but I have found that to be probably one of the most Equitable ways um to start to take a deep dive into what your open space trust is and how it's expended and then you could start to budget in well if you want to acquire a new piece of property you know rather than being told there's there's no money and having no understanding as to why there's no money then you've got an informed group that says okay you know 25% of my budget is obligated for past debt and 25% has been earmarked for this Improvement project but I have X amount of dollars that I could start to budget for for a different use so that would be my recommendation we put a structure in place in your plan or somewhere else and and and you just talked about how we would apply that structure too MH thank you welcome um Neil is in charge of our um Sustainable New Jersey subcommittee so I'm gonna let him answer that question but before we go there I just we're talking about a much larger plan that is on the website just so that everybody in the room understands I know you didn't get 125 page document right we're trying to save paper so the reference that um Barbara made earlier is to the entire document that is on the website thanks Kim uh I just want to clarify that uh Sparta has had uh uh bronze status uh in the sustainable Jersey program uh which is expiring in 2025 so we need to recertify and this will be a valuable help to us for uh additional points in maybe possibly reaching silver status someday question um in your recommendations to expand par was that done with the intention of making the expansion Recreation facilities or was it done with the intention of um conserving wildlife habitat or just proximity like could you give like sort of a description or or maybe a percentage of of which expansions cover which it was really on a place bypl basis like unman park it would be facility based that's really the the best use of that land that surrounds that um The Glenn it's all wildlife habitat and it would um help protect those quds of you know that are used right now would formalize it and um make sure that it's protected in the future so um you'd really have to go through the document and look at it kind of on a a site by sight basis you own Sparta surprisingly owns land that is completely inaccessible and interior to surrounded by state owned land so um here's my my recommendation for that um is that Sparta should consider transferring ownership of those properties to the state but get money for it so um you know it's been done with other municipalities but you know you're thinking about the best management of those lands and that's really where it is so we didn't make I don't have an overall percentage for you um it was really more on a site by sight basis thinking about the maintenance question and the expense of maintaining the expanded Parks um so if there there is some percentage of the expansion and we sort of pick and choose as a as a town where we want to expand or when we can expand and those decisions could be made um with the with the knowledge of whether or not we're going to use it as a like a labor intensive recreation facility or um something that we can purchase and manage as a Forever Wild so those are choices we can make correct on the maintenance correct right and you don't have to develop a park right away you know it could be part of that 10year plan you know White Lake Park is a great example of that you're very thoughtful about how you develop that Park and there's a lot of opportunities at that Park uh thank you very much and thank you to everyone who put so much time and effort into it it shows and I'm glad that we have all the kind of relevant stakeholders here to provide input um just one question kind of a manua question which is for the properties that you identified as a dedicated open space must those be included on the rosi or does the township have any flexibility with that uh provided that they're not located next to critical infrastructure so they can avoid possible the clawback provisions that you spoke of saying hey we know this is open a dedicated open space but we're not sure what's going to happen to it we're just going to keep it off for flexibility purpose do we have the ability to do that or must we put it on the rosi it really depends on how it was protected you know we're relying on that list by from what the tax assessor provided to us that these were done as part of the planning board approval process so um you know my recommendation is that you take the time to ask someone to look at the Deeds or look at the resolutions that set aside that land to see how it's worded if the wording is such that they were set aside for open space purposes only you know you may have to talk to your attorney about exactly what that means but those open space dedications are ones that you should really take a a good look at okay thank you uh also I I may have misheard you but um I just want to get clarification you when you were doing the overview of the history of our um open space plans I think you spoke about 2020 and that was the only one that you seem to think that you weren't so keen on and can you kind of expound further about why that was yeah because it wasn't a plan it was a list of um what you own and that's really all it was so it didn't update anything um it didn't provide any recommendations it didn't provide any guidance so in our work it it wasn't wasn't really helpful and it wasn't helpful to the municipality your 1997 plan was spoton and your 2003 was informative okay thank you no further questions for me just I'm going to ask anyone from the environmental commission anything you heard that generates a question okay if not let's open up to the public for any comments or questions that you may have anybody have any comments or questions please come up to the microphone Jenny dck um I just had a couple of questions specifically and they were kind of touched on a number of times when we talked about Brownfield which Mr Zep knows is one of my favorite topics um can land that we have apparently in order to rehabilitate the rest of the remaining part of this landfill that is a is already deemed a Brownfield the L the the state is asking for land to be swapped from my understanding from the last conversation I had with Mr zeep about this can we take is there an impact to Sparta if we take some of the land that's been identified in this plan and swap it as the state is asking to the state in order to allow for this closure to happen that's way beyond my pay grade okay sorry so because we would be taking out State we would be taking out land that we're identifying in this plan as as open space and giving it to the state it sounds like a diversion process and if it's a diversion process yes you know that you um if you're looking to replace land and you own land and it has restricted yet then yes the concept is consistent but I haven't been involved and um it sounds fairly complicated so I really don't want to aine on it okay thank you that's fair um White Lake just so you talked about doing a deep dive into the into the various Parcels of land taking your time and looking White Lake um I have just photographs of the White Lake Beach sign and this is just this not really a question it's just a statement a sign that showed a dedication of White Lake Beach using funds from the Geraldine R Dodge foundation and that sounds like it's something that should be investigated before we do anything um so if Sparta owns land you you you said there was identified land that Sparta owns that is surrounded by state land and the recommendation is to potentially sell the land to the state but then we're subject to just again just as a comment I'm not asking for a response up on Sparta Mountain where they cut down 20 acres at at a time or 10 acres at a time twice a year I think it's now only 10 acres at a time of the forest so that's something to consider before you decide to do that thank you okay anybody else um this my first time out one of these so um krie Murphy um 250 West Mountain Road um my um idea is for a dog park it's a big deal um I think it's uh my own dog who was 10 got sick uh a year and a half ago or so and he had gone to dayc carees his whole life and he could no longer go cuz I was paranoid so I started going up to wage with him and um wage is incredible um they have people come from Bergen County they have people come from mors County um I'm very close with Stu Baker who started that one um so I know the land was donated to him but then they have to pay for he has to privately pay for fence and maintenance and stuff like that um but uh it's an incredible Community Hub there I mean people from Sparta go there a lot um but it's just incredible like the older community like what goes on there Beyond just I mean the dogs are all playing you know but the people are talking about local issues and um you know one older person passes away and there's a guy who comes with a pack it's his job and he's like one of my clients will take Ed's dog and stuff like that and it's it's really incredible it's it's vibrant I've been going there um for years but I didn't realize exactly what went on there other than just for the dogs but it's an incredible place um for the people that go there all the time and I just think it's really um needed I know there's a ton of animal lovers I looked at thing and saw that I didn't I I don't know why I didn't get the survey um but um I know that there was a lot of people uh that suggested that and like for example wage dog park is only um it's 3 acres and that's incredible like people from all over New Jersey come for this park and um they have water which is a big deal um but and there's a stream there um which is really nice too um but it's all fenced in but it's people come from all over and talk about where they've the Bronx like they come from all over to come to this park and and it's just amazing how far they drive and everything like that and um just what goes on there other than just the dogs playing the interaction between the people and how people help each other and what comes out of that Park is it's probably really good you know so I just wanted to state that that's my idea yeah the dog park did come up in the surveys people did remark that they wanted a dog park the dog park and wanted is the largest in the state it's actually 60 Acres um and they fence in different sections for different Siz dogs and different KN dogs and the park uh I believe the land is publicly owned but it's privately managed so it gets to your point about um he operates it via private donation it is a beautiful spot thank you hi I'm Ann luk from 32 East Shore Trail um I just had one question uh I guess this is more for the town planners in the council which is um Barbara had mentioned maybe transferring property surrounded by uh the state and um having uh having New Jersey purchase those properties that could be a source of funding but I also and um I was also thinking in this plan are we going to be approaching any Property Owners um perhaps seeking property owners who might be willing to either deed their property or sell their property to the Township in perhaps environmentally sensitive areas um or areas where there's a lot of traffic and we want to reduce the amount of traffic um I just didn't know if that was part of the plan so you you've spot on um it's an open space and Recreation plan and it's done in order to qualify for State funding to buy land so yes if the town does implement the plan they'll be identifying and reaching out to private land owners to see if they'd be interested in selling their land to the municipality for new parks are open space and uh it's good to hear that Sparta will be updating their master plan and it can be used as one of the layers in the master plan thank you okay any other public comments or questions uh was that little girl with somebody [Laughter] I don't know she left with some she left with someone I didn't know yeah yeah she knew the person she was leing with hope so I don't know that I can answer that um Kathy evanow and scutters road I I just had a question about the slide that was presented um the map seems very um dialed in to the center of town um so much so that you know areas like White Lake are not present and you know the town as a whole is not represented so I wanted to know in terms of what on the report is it holistic uh is there a holistic map on the report because this one is very dialed in it exactly right so I I zoomed in on that map because I was very keen on explaining the different land uses um but yes the plan uh State actually requires it there's a map that shows the whole whole town and how it's preserved or used so yes if you go on the website and you look at the the plan it's like I don't know page 11 or 12 great thank okay can I just ask one quick question Trail meeting tomorrow night is that open yes and that's here welcome to a 7.m here okay Donuts okay anybody else okay uh seeing nobody I think that uh that brings us to to an end so I just want to take a moment to uh once again thank the environmental environmental commission uh Barbara and everyone who participated and putting this together uh one last question is again when I when I read it I wish I had known about this sooner so for anyone that may be here tonight or listen at home where can people find the plan that we're talking about now so if they want to look i' recommend everybody read this the the plan's on the website on the website on the town website envir okay great no it's right on the main page um under one of the posts okay great thank you it's coupled down October 14th is the date it was posted okay great thank you Mr chairman um we will be having a public hearing if the board wants to you'll be scheduling this for plan this plan element Amendment to the master plan for the December 4th meeting okay talk up a little bit you'll be scheduling this uh plan this plan element it's an amendment to the master plan uh if you were to schedule it tonight you could possibly schedule it for a public hearing on December 4th at 700 p.m. at this meeting room there will be uh master plan notices of that if you were to schedule it and then if you after that hearing the board moves to adopt it then it becomes an official element of the township master plan as you said before replacing all prior open space plans okay all right thank everybody um why don't we take h a short break a 15-minute break uh but before we go um I just want to mentioned I think everyone's you heard a lot about the master plan just a quick commercial on on the survey on the ends of the dasis there's a QR code link if anyone here hasn't take the survey please capture that code and take the survey um so it's why don't we say we'll get back together at 8 uh 8:30 if that's okay okay all right thank you everybody hear e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e please [Music] that one has a site plan approv from planning board because it was a modern plan with including soil remov I'm just yeah question I got one okay thank you everybody all right so that moves us on to the second subject for tonight which is the pdrm 2 Zone uh we're going to talk about the max building size and required impact statements so if I can just a little background um earlier in the at the ordinance uh subcommittee which included uh Bill Enright Janette Burke Ernie reat and myself and we had uh guidance from our professionals met to discuss the PDR pdrm 2 Zone um the team recommended and the board agreed that we um have a discussion on two potential changes to that zone uh those two changes that we're going to talk about tonight is that no building can have a uh a size greater than 175,000 Square ft and that the same impact statements that are required in the economic development Zone and the pdm1 zone are also are to be required for the pdrm 2 Zone um if we make these changes these changes would make the pdm2 Zone consistent with the changes that were made for the economic development Zone and the PDR M1 Z M pdm1 Zone back in uh 2022 under ordinance 22-21 so so tonight I believe uh everyone should have received a copy uh I believe was posted on the website uh A draft copy of a of an ordinance that that shows those changes um and just a couple other points just to to get us all kind of level set so um when you look at at these zones uh look at uh uh under ordinance 2221 these zones have already prohibited distribution centers fulfillment centers parcel hubs and trucking terminals uh within the pdrm 2 two Zone um uh another point is rail use is not permitted within the pdm2 zone so again the purpose of this ordinance is to make this more consistent with the two adjacent zones so with that said uh Katherine if you could could you walk us through the changes and any points or discussion that you'd like to to bring up sure thank you Ron so as uh chairman day uh mentioned this was something that we had discussed at the board uh I don't know if it's last meeting the meeting before just um uh initially it was an evaluation an analysis of the Zone um as it exists to see what the standards looked like um and and kind of a a recap of when the Ed and pdrm one zones were amended um kind of why this one was kind of left out to some extent or didn't include some of the same changes at the same time and um I did provide an overview to the board discussing kind of this is a a more unique Zone and that it really only permits plan development due to the size of the properties I talked through some of kind of um what the mechanisms are for plan development how they're a little bit different than a normal site and sight plan um and essentially um the we were we landed as a board to uh look into really some limited changes that would make it more consistent with the Ed and pm1 zones and and that was the um Total Building size um you know we talked through some of the numbers that percentages the proportions and what is exists in the plan development overall and and talk through some of those prospective numbers but essentially decided to cap the building sizes um regardless of that just as a a measure um to make it more consistent again with the other zones nearby um in addition to that building size we um pretty much copied and pasted over all of the design standards that were put in for warehouses we were actually pretty Forward Thinking um in that when we put together a lot of the design standards for this type of use it was prior to the state putting out their warehouse sighting guidance which said these are things you should do so we did it prior to that we came up with that um beforehand and we I think that they work really well as um design standards that um help to control and limit intensity um and um will help to as a as a measure um in this Zone to make sure that um we have you know very strict design standards that help limit a lot of the features um that could be uh otherwise hard to mitigate um and those include things like the the ratio of the dock doors um the amount of parking spaces the limitation on the number of tenants that a building can be kind of chopped up um amongst an overall building can be chopped up in that sense um the landscape eror ratios the design standards for the buildings and the materials um which we have encountered for for um development applications in the Zone already and have been enforced and I think they've done a wonderful job to create architectural standards for buildings that are more Industrial in nature um additionally we have shared pretty much again copy pasted over um the required impact studies for developments in this Zone in particular we do have them across the boards for the general ordinances for site plan major site plans and subdivisions um but um these are impact studies related to environmental impact traffic impact um and then community impact so they're specifically in this Zone to make sure that there are requirements of any development application for um uses in this zone so like I said that whole second section and majority of the changes we made one were again limited to the scope this whole analysis was limited to the scope of making it consistent through the features that were adopted previously for the EDM Ed and pdr1 Zone and also were basically a copy paste over um of of those changes so there wasn't any significant difference from what exists to today in those other zones um I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has as well can I just add a piece of context for the public so this is a uh this is not preclude Us in of evaluating this Zone during the master plan work that's upcoming too so this is just to uh a near-term amendment to tighten up things U we will certainly be looking at all zones as we do the master plan work so this is not the be all end all yeah and I should add that that the one of the discussion items was basically or you know one of my my discussion items is hey we're working on a master plan we can easily capture this and kind of the sentiment from this board um was that we should really look at this before rather than later these are two zones with big chunk or one zone with two big pretty big Parcels um and they don't have the same protective design standards and measures that we have in the other zones so let's do it now and I think you're exactly right that's why the scope is a little bit more limited but still very very effective and what the changes will will do okay okay um Dave any any comments questions Tom either one of you uh Mr chairman the only question I have it's a little bit off rated from this but uh something I thought about before with regards to the various impact studies I understand and that everyone wants that uh just from a standpoint and this is probably a question for Tom uh completeness those particular studies aren't necessarily listed on the existing checklist so while I may bring them up in a report uh I think it's more of a situation where you want them more upfront so I'm not sure if we have to have a separate ordinance to amend that or how you do that um well we could add that to this ordinance as an amendment to the checklist but we'll it's pretty straightforward in other words there is a checklist the checklist is adopted by ordinance and you could add these documents to that check list then you have to check it on the application that you submitted it so that's what I have and as a as a followup um I did look at the checklist only the environmental impact study is included as a checklist item so uh when your dmain application complete before we can get scheduled before the board there are items that they either have to provide or request to waiver for um so I think Dave is exactly right I was looking at it myself we should probably add um and as Tom mentioned it's something you do buy ordinance because the checklist is an ordinance item um that we add the traffic impact study and the community impact study for for projects that have to provide it for the ordinance is that part of this that will be added to this it can be an addition yeah I think we can add it not separate but you can add it you can add it right to this it's another section and then it'll have probably an attached checklist or some or an additional checklist items to be added to the checklist we can either attach a checklist or just add those items okay okay BR you're in this time any questions or comments I have no further questions celest no I'm good thank you okay Jen okay I do um as I was reading through the proposed changes and I know it's a copy paste I went back and compared it to the original pdrm to um language and there are two things that I'd like you to consider I think there one is minor um vehicular movement and parking control um under G1 it says soil removal storage buildings warehouses and distribution center uses shall be accessed through the blah blah blah if distribution centers are not allowed here I would suggest taking that out of the language I will I will take a look at that and make sure that that's removed again as M chairman day had mentioned um those were all made prohibited uses um and so if there is any language inconsistency I'll make sure to clean that up and it will just be a simple section add to this okay to remove that one more thing is uh under the permitted uses one of the things that I think should be going in there um and we have the opportunity just to add it is affordable housing and the reason I think it's not difficult to add is in number four it does talk about if plan development voluntarily provides for affordable housing uh the impervious coverage could go up to 70 7% so does reference reference in oh excuse me reference it there but yet it is not included in a permitted use uh Joan um that is intentional this is an industrial or Economic Development Zone and no housing is allowed in it so the reference in the incentive provision is we went over at the last meeting but it's more of a let's call it a voluntary incentive that the township Council has to agree is an adequate contribution in funds for the township to the housing Town trust fund for the township to do something related to affordable housing so it's giving money it's giving money and only if the township Council not the planning board planning board recommends but Township Council decides that the there is being an adequate contribution to the Housing Trust Fund um and I I tried to explain a little bit but some of the things you can use the Housing Trust Fund which are credit worthy even still under A4 are things like donations to a group home for adults with disabilities um and group homes are a very useful way to get credits for uh affordable housing because each bedroom of a group home constitutes one unit of credit still under A4 and under prior Co rules and um so that's just an example of how funds to the Housing Trust Fund might be expended with the consent of the governing body to achieve credits and you can use things like group homes and other alternative housing techniques including s now some new additional ones uh for up to 50% of your Township's entire Municipal entire uh prospective need obligation so this zone is not a zone for building housing in it and that would not be a good idea in my view because it adjoins the railroad and enjoins a recycling plant called a murf which is a d preempted um I would call heavy industrial site in a sense that they have make a quite a bit of noise also the nicelock factory is adjacent to the properties um so there are other industrial type users so it's just not a good location for housing and and U so then it's not it doesn't presently and has never permitted housing as a use in that that area all right thank you so I have a few questions the first one is on page two there's a mention of a under landscape plan a minimum landscape area ratio L of 0.40 um can you just describe a little bit more about the L and is that a percentage of the total land area and if so why so low or can you just describe that a little bit better um so look at number seven before it gets to 7A there there's a kind of a description of what the what contributes to the L so it's anything that's not part of the building um has to be landscaped or have ground cover um it's intended to to capture Green Space um and it's supposed to be that anything that's not parking or impervious coverage basically gets to remain as Green Space um I I the L right now in the Ed and PM 1 Zone is4 um and that's was really back into based on what would the allowances were for the impervious coverage the impervious coverages here are much lower so the L will naturally probably be higher um unless a variance was sought and then they wouldn't they'd have to seek another variance for impervious coverage they'd have to seek additional variances for the landscape area ratio the intention here really is to preserve um Green Space even on indust more industrial sites because you um in in places that aren't Sparta you see industrial sites that get out can get out of hand become very cold become uh have a lot of storm water runoff um not have much Green Space um for um environmental and for storm water management um and so it's a it's it's a benefit I think from aesthetic purpose from environmental purpose from a storm water management purpose um and it really was was I think unique to to um us looking at the industrial zones and trying to soften them and make sure that there were was landscape area um again the number the point4 was something that was backed into for the prm1 and the Ed Zone based on the coverages allowed so um maybe it seems a little low here we were literally just copying over the analysis was not larger the scope is not larger than looking into um how we could copy these over really but if I heard you correctly it doesn't really create an exposure here because for this Zone the maximum impervious surface is magnet smaller like it's minuscule compared to those other zones so that this will naturally be much higher than4 yes this is a minimum they have to reach so likely it will be much higher okay and the impervious can you remind us what the impervious coverage maximum allow is um give me one second to open up the raw the the existing ordinance right now um so it's it's a little bit different here in this Zone um I think we discussed it last time because it's not like a typical site there's two sections to this ordinance um one being that a plan development has allowances so it's like an overall the whole big portion of the site has an allowance and then if you chop up the site and subdivide it into smaller sites which have to be a minimum of six acres a piece they have their own allowances in there but the overall coverage is is governed by by the three% that's allowed for the overall know just three yeah 3% is the coverage allowance okay um second question on page four it talks about the traffic impact study say that one more time I'm sorry uh page four traffic impact study letter C it talks about the traffic study shall show different standards are met um the second one mentions maximum allowable peak hour trip generation and it uh has a rate of .25 trips per thousand square F feet correct if we look at them maximum building size that the smaller Max that this would limit to that's still 44 trips per hour M so this was a kind of um it was again a unique um standard that was placed in the Ed and pm1 Zone um I remember explaining this a lot and I'm going to do my best to explain it again this time um because when the ordinance was changed for that zone and what even was changed here to prohibit certain uses and to basically um as you know warehouses aren't a single format any longer they're not all just storage facilities there are distribution centers fulfillment centers which all fall under that umbrella which are ordinance intended to capture one with definitions and then prohibition of those certain uses that may have higher impacts whether it be traffic or size or truck traffic Etc and so in order to single out the warehouse use there are certain trip Generations that are identified by the it in particular that help characterize those different kinds of uses so distribution centers fulfillment centers cross stock warehouses all have significantly higher it trip Generations per square footage and the IT bases them basically off square footage when you look at their their data um where warehouses fall in um the category that they fall in is approximately like maybe 022 to 026 or 027 is what the data shows per thousand square feet and so in this wasn't this was more a um it wasn't meant to create a traffic study um um kind of uh standard like a bulk standard but it was rather to match and to verify that the traffic study that they were producing the data matched the use so it wasn't like a disguised Distribution Center it wasn't something that they could provide a traffic study and basically lie about the use uh essentially so it was to verify that it was a true dwell Warehouse based on it numbers that they would have to testify to under oath and then basically their data would have to follow up to that traffic study if it was significantly different postbuild there would be a huge red flag um and so it was really a verification um data within the traffic study that you have to show that and you have to verify that against your use okay okay and those higher uses that you referenced earlier on those are prohibited anyway in here right and if your traffic study did show something like a one trip pert you you would clearly not be a warehouse right so you'd have to have a lot of explaining to do about your traffic study okay can I can I elaborate real quick and I sorry for cutting you off um on the 3% impervious coverage uh taken in consideration it's the whole Zone last time we did go over that if part of that zone is subdivided and donated back to Sparta the impervious coverage allowable imp coverage goes up to so there are incentives included in the zone um so the base um impervious coverage allowed is 3% anything in addition to that and why I didn't bring it up and I apologize that I didn't I wasn't clear the 5% is something that is um not a basis it's not as of right um it's an incentive based on if the township does accept that land so the township has no obligation to accept it to provide the incentive the Leverage is entirely in the hands of the township to accept that land or not um so um it's not necessarily a given that they'd get the 5% but there still is an open space requirement regardless of whether or not the township accepts it so they still have to provide the open space it's just that if the township accepted that dedication they'd get a 2% incentive on their coverage okay okay right and Brian this is the one where at the end of houses Corner Road and West Mountain Road an 88 acre parcel was dedicated to permanent open space by a conservation easement to the township of Sparta in conjunction with the golden dome site plan application so and that's already been dedicated it's deed recorded and U was actually part of the mapping that Barbara is working on so okay all right uh Katherine two more quick ones these are just confirmations can you confirm that this does not alter the existing requirements for the impervious coverage limits or the minimum lot size if subdivided and the open space set as sides correct no it does not alter any of that if anything it puts a hard cap with the 175,000 Square ft if there was in any scenario an opportunity for it to go higher than that and we looked at some of the numbers so even if there was an incentive sought and accepted technically this building coverage cap stops any of incentives from being realized okay okay and the proposed the new maximum building size applies even if in existing incentive is sought right it's going to be utilized this doesn't change that it's still cap okay correct okay thank you that's all I have okay thanks I have no questions no questions yeah I just would like to clarify um where the PDM um pdrm 2 is is that the property that's near Lake grenell where there are homes in that area so it's right up against that um Lake grenell correct back part of it and then um the other part goes out to where the houses Road correct it goes about halfway down houses Corner Road from Lafayette to West Mountain so it's the upper portion basically along Lake grenell up there okay okay and I I just was looking here at page two uh under number seven landscape area ratio also and I was wondering if we might want to change that first paragraph a little bit uh it reads all areas of the site not occupied by a building and required Improvement shall be landscaped by the planting of shrubs and trees or the preservation of existing ground cover shrubs and trees in accordance with Landscaping planting plan approved by the the approving board but shouldn't we really put in there after um the preservation shouldn't we put in their noninvasive and Native existing ground cover shrubs and trees in accordance with Landscaping planting plan approved by the approving board so I agree this this standards below it actually prescribe so when you look at a a landscaping plan shall include the following standards there's a number of things that that landscape plan that's referenced there has to include which include um Evergreen plantings for screening Evergreen plantings at offset rows at the property borders um visual screen an aesthetic setting consistent with consistent with the character surrounding area um breakup long build screen off parking service utility areas provide a variety of species to protect against disease attacking all plantings shall be selected with consideration for various Seasons mixed of colors texture shapes blossoms foliage deer resistant non-invasive native species yeah that's what I don't like because it says a variety shall be selected with consideration consideration that word okay for various seasons and of different different colors textur shapes blossoms and foliage now you're considering deer resistant and you're could just considering noninvasive and Native species so this board is the is the approving body that can approve that plan and can reject anything that doesn't meet those standards yeah because in the EC what we're doing is we're trying to develop um a um an ordinance that would um you know not require but strongly suggest you know native plants or non-invasive plants so why not put something like that to encourage that with the pdm2 I I think it's my opinion that it does already that it basically says that those should be included and this board has all the authority to reject that landscape plan or accept the landscape plan um so in in my opinion I think that the board has the authority to essentially dictate to the whoever the applicant is that the landscape plan is either satisfactory based on the ordinance or not satisfactory based on the ordinance but wouldn't it be clearer and wouldn't you save a step if you just put that that wording change that wording um you know for the applicant you know you're not going to consider you're going to you know do so we don't have to have that dialogue during an application I'll leave it to the board if they want to decide that I have no problem with it um I I thought it was clear but if it's not then I absolutely will take that suggestion just a suggestion yeah what again what what we're trying to do is keep this similar identical to what we have in the other two zones okay um and there's also I think there's going to be further opportunity as we bring all this stuff back to the master plan and and look at how we're going to redefine things there as as well um so um I'm also not reading it the same way uh Christine you are I'm reading it as considering for various Seasons comma then all the other things which says noninvasive and non the consideration part I think applies to the various seasons and different colors oh I think it means that you're considering whether or not you're going to put in deer resistant plants or you're going to put in U you know native or non-native the fact that both of us are interpreting it differently could be a problem yeah could it be as simple as adding right before um the uh non-invasive and Native species just put and shall include noninvasive and Native species I was thinking maybe to clarify especially because Bill just brought up his own interpretation and that's what ordinances are for you can interpret them um but the um a way to kind of avoid that consideration word is that a variety shall be selected with consideration for Seasons colors that's all subjective right um as well as a requirement for de resistant non invasive native species yeah so we'll put the word a requirement for thank you thanks Ernie I'm good I'll pass it sir all right I had one again I guess it's more along the same lines of just kind of taking confusion out on page uh three under design standards um number uh number three it says exposed metal building sheet or corrugated metal and similar those used on exterior walls on the front of the building is prohibited but when you go down to the bottom number five it said building facade should be constructed the same material in quality on all four sides is aren't they does that mean it I suppose that you are correct um we did have an instance of this actually come up and I will um give that as an anecdote of what I think the the outcome of it was good um initially it was the brandstone it was the Behringer building in the Ed Zone on Aaron way and they had um they have a corner lot so they have Frontage on two portions so they had a very nice facade long Aaron way I think uh and then Park Lake I think had the corrugated or they had exposed metal um which is typical for industrial um they mentioned that it would be a lot more expensive but they still went ahead with it they revised their plans they made the frontage they updated their architect did a wonderful job and the back of the building continued to have continue to have exposed metal um I don't necess I do think that the reading of this upon looking at it might seem um contradictory but I hope with the outcome I just gave you from the Behringer building makes you realize that um the I think that the architect the architectural design in meets the intent and purpose of the zoning or in that we softened the front of the building we made it a beautiful product and I think we worked with the applicant to get to that point but we didn't overburden by Prov making them do concrete panels on the back so the back of the building still had that exposed metal to the same color so it met the same color different materials but met with the full design so maybe I mean maybe it needs to be that it's uh complimentary or not constructed of the same material but complimentary on all four sides so that you don't have like gray exposed metal on the back and you have tan concrete panels on the front so uh because we do want I mean it was a sign significant I thought consideration and it was a good point that the applicant brought up of cost um something we should consider as we have applicants um come in is that we need to kind of marry that and negotiate that that um we're not just going to improve any building but we should be we should be aware of that business owners in town are making an investment and what that cost looks like in today's world I would add too if it's if it's not contradictory it gives us flexibility during a hearing to make sure that the needs are met in the way we see them F in that example that you gave I bring up one more thing please um and this is not to change anything here but it's when you do the trip generation studies and you're talking about AM and PM I know that's the standard that we always use but when you're looking at the master plan is there a way to consider um peak hours really being I think the worst by houses corner and 15 is like the 3:30 time all the school buses are going down there every parent is going down there picking up their kids and that's one of the worst times and if it's possible um to require in the future sure that those kind of things also be looked at as a peak hour so Dave can correct me if I'm wrong because I think he's more of an expert in traffic studies than I am but I believe that the PM hour isn't fixed the PM Peak doesn't have to be fixed at like six o'clock I've seen peak hours be four o'clock in the afternoon EXC a lot of times that's a good point and a lot of times when they do manual traffic counts in a traffic study um those manual counts will go so many hours before and after what the traditional peak hour is be it in the morning or the evening and sometimes because of unique circumstances at a particular intersection it'll hone in on 3:30 to 4:30 or 2:30 to 330 whatever it might be they usually sum up the counts in 15minute increments so they can hone in on that when they do the traffic study all right so we would have to incorporate that somehow in the future so that they look at it we don't want to come back after the fact and say well we wish you had looked at this and normally when they for the future yes yeah when they when they do a traffic study they'll try and get a buffer on each side for their own use especially if they're trying to coordinate with timing of traffic intersections or uh come up with some left turn lane and what the queuing might be so they know how long to make a left turn lane that type of thing so your Point's well taken right but I don't want to leave it up to them for instance when the apartment complex was before us they did their traffic study and they had their time zones and it did not include any time that the school buses or kids were around understood so I agree okay so John find S so you recommended that that be addressed as part of the a master plan yeah yeah because it's going to affect more than just this I don't want to hold this up so I would say like if you're ready to make the motion with the just the couple of changes that uh were discussed about required and and um taking out the distribution centers I don't know if we got to the end yet no no did to go to public as well that was Ernie yes Ernie any other questions nope that's it all right so uh with that let's open up to the public for any uh comments or questions that anybody has relative to this uh proposed ordinance Jenny Derk tapen to Sparta um page five number four Community impact statement I think I had this discussion when we were talking about the e Ed Zone what's what is the implication of this if you're asking for things that seem very uh subjective and then you're also asking for the applicant to decide for example in number two facilities impact when you're talking about a a review of whether or not say there's enough uh the the fire department or the police department or the ambulance Squad is close enough and it may be rhetorical because this may not it may not be important to this location but just just why are we asking for um an estimated cost of additional facilities and who in the opinion of the applicant should pay for them like that just seems ridiculous sorry I don't mean to be rude but that um why why bother having these and and I have a bigger opinion about the whole Community impact statement section when it really is no it doesn't inform whether or not you can reject or approve an application it seems like you're just asking for information for the sake of asking it and it's quite subjective I just I don't understand the purpose of it and then I have one other question does this um does the require does this Zone require a new business even if it's the same to be approved be reapproved so when the golden dome is no longer the owner and it's now it's V or the gentleman's name is VD um did they come before the planning board and get an approval I don't remember that happening thank you so so two questions so the first one kind of goes back to we what we talked to when we um did 2221 um the more data we can get from them and we're asking for this data and they have to give it to us that's going to give us as well as like the fire the fire department or other people that review these applications more data to look at um so we can ask more questions and dive into it further um as opposed to to not ask now it's now it's a requirement okay so there a little more data than we're getting now that and it helps us again to determine is it really what you say what you say it is um in terms of the second question I did think I thought I saw something in that did require and that required uh new tenants to come before the board let me see if I can find that it's either new use or change in use that's the existing ordinance requires prior to the issuance of a CO okay each new use or change in use and the pdm2 shall be required to receive use approval from the planning board to ensure compliance with provisions of the section and site pl's ordinance standards okay well then I just have a followup then because there is a whole section of fees and permit fees per certain square footage uh cubic foot of materials this is in the existing it's way down in the bottom it's a fee structure um about the tonnage or cubic feet of of material brought out and and there's a fiveyear um a five-year schedule and then you can reapply if you don't achieve your goal within the five years and so how does that work if you don't address the fact that there may be a new owner unless I'm reading it wrong where are you reading from J so this is the existing ordinance which doesn't seem to be touched doesn't seem to be touched and but that goes to my question about whether or not a new owner you're saying it's just a change of use and and just for full disclosure as we mentioned before the scope of this analysis of the Zone did not go that far okay we really we really looked at how we could help make this more protected as the other zones are with with higher quality design standards and impact study requirements okay because the Ed Zone requires a reapprovals it and you're talking about consistency that's why I was just asking so the edzone does and this already had that provision in there about the change in use we but we weren't looking at full consistency across the ordinances they are very different in many different ways um we were looking at consistency specifically for use larger industrial uses like warehouses that would have those design standards and traffic impact studies in there um so it was really in it was like I said Limited in scope at how we looked at this okay thank you Rick finle 13 Hayward Road um two questions one is I understand the need for consistency between pdm1 and P R2 or ET whatever what are the different as we bring them closer together what are the differences between the two pdrm zones is there still significant differences or are they one and the same the the the biggest difference between the pdm2 zone and any other Zone in town including pdm1 or Ed Zone um despite having very similar names is that the pdm2 Zone requires what's called plan development so every single permitted use listed in that zone is required to be done under basically a larger plan so you can't just develop a port subdivide the site and develop a portion of the site you have to have a large plan for the site um it doesn't it's an ml term or Municipal land use law term and that larger sites basically have to be a a plan development or planed Economic Development um and and include uh a lot more detail than normal just site plan would so that's the the biggest difference I'd say in that just even the procedure is much different than the others um in the past when the pdrm 1 and Ed Zone were amended this was also included with an amendment because there were some shared uses even within that plan development structure for warehouses that weren't specific to warehouses as we know them today it was from the past kind of generally warehouses and so that was updated when the p and pdm1 zones were updated to remove distribution centers fulfillment centers Trucking terminals all those uses and basically match them up um but from a from a standpoint of trying to compare them it's very difficult just because the pdrm 2 contemplates this larger plan development and caps coverage across the entire development rather than how a normal site within a Zone would be looked at okay thank you um Ron did you say it restricts rail use was that one it's not a permitted use it's not a permitted use and where does the pdm2 Zone start if I was to go down how's this Corner Road from Route 15 I I'd have to have a map in front of me to really show you and that's why I asked the question I don't have the map but I see a lot of land getting removed and it getting leveled right along the railroad track so if that's in pdrm 2 and you're trying to restrict rail use I don't understand understand because it seems the whole plan and I I have no official knowledge but they're leveling that out to for future use along the rail rail let me make sure I'm I'm stand right I'm going look to Tom cther on this so I know when we look at the economic development Zone and we look at pdm1 there were some uh rail incentives yeah what what you're thinking of Ron is um Ed Zone and pdm1 Zone only have rail dependent use or rail adjacent use now uh authorizations the pdrm 2 Zone which basically starts I believe just past nicelock Factory and driveway it could be wrong it could stop start just past the murf property line so but it's generally speaking past nlock and maybe past the murf if you're familiar with that it's a municipal you recycling facility for construction materials it's a pretty big building and they are right on the railroad they do have some sort of rail connectivity but the next properties uh actually if you remember the old name Kaz deas the kazas sand and gravel operation operated for 80 years in the valley near the railroad was already graded down and had significant soil removal for those 80 years uh that is in the pdrm 2 Zone as is the next property golden dome where there is past nickel loock heading towards West Mountain right they do not allow rail adjacent use uh activ uses they do not have those benefits I would have added to what Katherine said is that the pdrm 2 is very significant and that has a maximum of 3% cover three % impervious coverage that's very restrictive um and the 88 acres as Brian asked about was already dedicated to open space and that is the land between Lake grenell and West and houses Corner Road and that is preserved in privately restricted but to the benefit of the township of Sparta open space that's 88 acres of of private but deed restricted to Florida open space the property I think you're thinking of that you see from Route 15 is probably the melotti the former melotti property now owned by Mr Shoemaker uh and is a the site of a previous use variants by the zoning board the 1970s to have soil removal uh between the railroad and houses Corner Road and that is in the pdm1 zone okay okay and they do have rail use they could they could have it I don't know that they use it but and they I I I think you should realize that when you're adjacent to a rail someone can use it and the township is not in control of whether someone can use the railroad there might be standards of what uses and what restrictions are on those uses like the pdm1 zone and the PED Zone um but people who join railroads like they who people who join roads have the ability from federal law to use the railroads okay thank you that live any other questions or comments from the public how they get there okay oh they're not like full so if the board would entertain it it would you would be making a motion to recommend this draft ordinance with the revision you discussed tonight that I'm sure Catherine has noted and we'll incorporate it as as our scuer and I'll help her uh to the township Council for possible introduction by the township Council then it would still come back to you for a consistency review report for consistency with the master plan and if it was then after public hearing decided to be adopted by the governing body it would become an ordinance it's it's basically a surgical ordinance of the pdrm 2 Zone to in incorporate the restrictions that were used in the prior zones the prior those other two zones so I like to make that motion I'll make a motion to approve second do we need to go through the no amendments I think she got it I got got I got them they're pretty straightforward they're very straightforward okay okay could we get a roll call please sure Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes Janette Burke yes Christine dumbar yes Vice chairman Bill Enright yes Joan Ferman yes Justin Canales yes Celeste Luciano yes Ernie ragat yes Mike Sylvester Brian Zimmerman yes chairman Ronde yes all right the motion has passed thank you okay so that then brings us to the third item of other new business which is the new uh ordinance on cannabis so Mr Collins could you kind of give us an update on on where we are with this sure Mr chairman um we fortunate to have the council here with us and they can help us understand uh the direction they'd like us to go in but my understanding is although you it was the ordinance was introduced by the governing body uh at its October 22nd meeting which when it was introduced it me means it's being has to be referred to the planning board within 30 for 35 days for review for what's called a consistency or referral report but the governing body in their dialogue introduced it with some blanks and would like to have you have dialogue with them about what zones if any to allow some or all of these uses in and technically that ordinance as introduced probably couldn't even be adopted because it has blanks that they knew about that they left in so that you could could talk about at this board level and with them the uses that might be allowed for the different cannabis licenses and in what zones might they be allowed um if any and to add to that further it's a little hard to understand because you don't get involved in the taxation or the licensing aspects of cannabis those are there are two separate or two other ordinances is in addition to this the third ordinance which you do get involved in for consistency review but cannabis is unique in that uh it's been authorized by both the State Constitution and by state legislature and it sets up a protocol where um a party that wants to undertake the activities the regulated activities under any of the six licenses has to get a license from the state of New Jersey and a license from the governing body so there's a governing body ordinance to establish this licensing process and I'm not directly involved in that luckily uh Ursula Leo is here and she works with Tom Ryan but my understanding is it proposes two licenses for retail and one for the other categories of potential cannabis so it's kind of like that's a regulatory system that exists separate from zoning and this is one of the few uses it's a little bit like alcohol like license but that's even different basically it's a use that you can only even if it's allowed in a Zone you can only have that use if you have the license from the governing body and the state of New Jersey and then there's a third ordinance that taxes each stage of the retail I'm sorry of the entire uh economic process of cultivation through sale of cannabis and that taxation some of it goes to the state of New Jersey and some of it can go to a municipality that is the host Municipality of the use it's a lot of information but I think what my understanding is it's probably not going to be adopted in this form they're Pro maybe or the mayor can tell us the ideas that are being considered and so maybe we can narrow our focus of what you the council would like the board to aine about or give ideas about or give recommendations about for perhaps what zones uh for I think primarily commercial but sure yeah thank you Tom so um as you mentioned you know the formal vote on master plan consistency really isn't necessary at this point um the ordinance will be revised so what the council is really seeking tonight is um General feedback on recommended zones and we really want to just start with retail uh let's you know keep a focus for now on retail if we were going to recraft the ordinance for retail what would be U some of the recommended zones you know we could and I I think I asked Katherine maybe to kick us off we we could start with all the zones today where we have other types of retail and then maybe evaluate that and narrow it down but I think at the end of this discussion we'd just like to have recommendations back to the Council on if we're going to look at retail what would be the appropriate zones so that if it should pass an introduction again at some point and comes back for master plan consistency review that it would be aligned it would not be a shock at that point so I think that's just a general feel for what we'd like to get through at this point and I I did have an opportunity to look um I didn't do any like mapping or formal analysis but I did look through and did like a cursory review of based upon the ordinance provision and of essentially the distance this must be from certain other uses um what it should be or could be adjacent to also beyond the of like what's appropriate essentially um I was able to kind of Whittle it down to a few zones that I thought could be up for consideration um none of the for the for the way the development patterns are in the T in the Town Center zones that just it's not viable um so it's it's just not it's not a place even though there are existing retail in that area um it's just not really viable based on the distance to other facilities that would be that would exclude it anyway um so it's not appropriate really in the Town Center zones um in more open areas um that are currently pretty uh or there's not much development or there's an openness for development in the pced zone along Route 15 across from North Village um has an opportunity um to maybe maybe include um a retail use um for it um and then the C1 and C2 zones they did have some adjacent Neighbors that were residential in character or maybe a mix of like daycare or Recreation uses that it may um conflict with but there are properties that have opportunities so there so it wouldn't probably be appropriate for the entire Zone meaning that you know not every property could qualify essentially for a use like this because it's adjacent to some other kind of use but um there are properties that probably could be appropriate for it um when looked at Katherine can you can you jump back uh thank you for doing that homework the the first comment you made about the Town Center zones not being appropriate can you expand upon that I know there's we're talking multiple zones that make up the town center area and yeah there's a number of um one there's a mix of um residential which I tried to be very um cognizant of so residential uses that are all over um or right adjacent back up to it um to the some of the Town Center zones there are also a number of churches um Parks um um and daycare uses playgrounds um I don't mean just churches there are other religious uses too of which this this use would require a 500 foot buffer from um so I think that um just based on the de again the development is much tighter in the town center it's much more it's the it's the denser retail development in the entire Township and um I just I I looked at it and didn't think as I scan through the property seeing you know a park here or school here or residence here or there are some places that may have an apartment over a store or something and I was just trying to be very sensitive to that I guess it could again I did like a like a windshield survey of um properties and zoning and existing kind of Aerials and things like that I did not go super in- depth so we could definitely take another look I basically if something looked like it wasn't a good place to put it like initially oh there's there's a lot of parks there's a lot of schools there's this it was just like exclude it at this base level right now let's look at what is actually kind of viable at this first look to have something for the for this um this evening's meeting Katherine I I I had done something similar I initially included PCD North Village but I guess because of the parks on residential that's what knocks it out out of there it sounds like yeah because there's there's um the assisted living right there there's residential at the back and I think there's also a provision about like it can't be on the same premises as food as eateries and stuff I think the ordinance included and so I I wanted I wasn't sure about like ownership of parcels in North Village how separate they were so if there is a shopping complex like a retail strip mall or there is restaurants adjacent and other in other in other tenant Suites technically I don't think it would be allowed um that's just my reading of the ordinance I can ask a question on on the adjacency to the uh food stores my understanding could be wrong but I think the the might as the way I understand it that the the intent of the Restriction is to is to eliminate a pass through with the with a food store so that you wouldn't be able to shop at a a dispensary that somebody dispenses Canabis and then get food in the same location that if there was no pass through that they could exist in the same strip mall I suppose but um okay I I read premises as like not being allowed in the same area so maybe we just clarify that in the next no no you may you may exactly be right and I was just reading it more conservatively yeah okay I think it's pretty specific and I don't understand why this is but the Cannabis retailer should not be located in the same premises as a grocery store delicate as an indoor food market or other store that engages in either the retail sale or food F in the license retail sale of alcohol beverages because I don't want you to linger there right go in there and go out there's no loitering there's very strict limits on how many how weight time you can so um I guess having food right there encourages loitering and I think that was the intention but okay I could be wrong but the but the premis we have like a lawy premises would capture a whole shopping center so I thought so because it says in or upon the same premises so I was a little bit I get like I said more conservative about I approached appropriate zones simply because I didn't want to impede or conflict against um what was in the in the ordinance as drafted um can you enumerate the zones that you mentioned before again that you thought were um applicable sure so again first glance we can do a deeper dive into this um and understand better like how many properties are um or how viable it is based on a deeper analysis but uh the pced Zone um the C1 and the C2 zones maybe it helps to tr to talk about where the c1s are Katherine um give me one second I see what you're saying though this paragraph about location has a lot of setback requirements so gu conditional use uh distances give me one second yes they're conditional use distances so they would have to be met and if they weren't met they need a use variance from the board of adjustment so the the way it's which is a very effective way to sort of limit the the locations some of those standards can sometimes be a little vague but these this is not vague and so basically you would have to be 500 feet from door too from a school or state licensed daycare or the daycare facility or the park or the playground or the place of worship so she's probably right the Town Center has multiple churches multiple daycares multiple uh quasi schools uh and so you and then you also have to be 400 ft from the nearest Residence so that become that's it's pretty common to have a resident within 400 ft of the Town Center Zone because it's sort of a linear Zone running from the Stop and Shop to the bowling alley along the front edge of those roads it's our so that could be might you might have to change this standard this conditional use standard or condition to if you would like it to be in the Town Center Zone um the C1 zones there are numerous C1 zones throughout the the town uh some of them are along woodport road coming from the town center from the bowling alley up to uh you know Mohawk Gardens formerly Mohawk Gardens whatever it is now and uh the first hope bank and those kinds of buildings they also have a the Lutheran Church they have they have definitely have residences behind and within 400 ft so that condition probably couldn't be met by anybody at least on the right hand side of woodport road as you go up I'm not sure the C2 allows retail so I'd have to check that I that might just be offices another C1 location is the Upper Lake Plaza but that's within I think it's within 500 feet of the AR Lady of the Lake Church and the Reverend Brown School there's a little more C1 going down Sparta Avenue towards Newton same issue though about the school then there's a C1 over by Route 15 by the the they The Bagel what's the name of the great Bagel Station there is there is a C1 right there it's small and that might not have a church or residence within 500 ft that little guy yeah but it has a food place it does it does have a food place and if you I don't think they're technically on the same lot they might be but I know they share the same driveway and so that you would want to make it clear that premises could be just means the same I think you mean the same building is what I I think it's really meaning the same building right it's it's you wouldn't have it in a grocery store you wouldn't have it in a liquor store you wouldn't have it in a yeah so that we could that we could work with that language but it's it's 500 ft property line to property line for the retail it's 500 ft built the building for the uh for the manufacturer and cultivation so there's a difference there that 500 ft property to property line even that location wouldn't work there's a residence within 500 ft in the other side of the tracks and across the street yeah I think there's a lot to be done on this corners of each building on on the residence its corners of each building so uh well is there res I on cultivation oh oh okay no on cultivation that's different but we're really I think we're pretty much concluding that we're going to focus on retail only and that narrow helps us narrow the scope really does because it also helps us narrow the zones if you try to stay in the retail zones and so where else C there's there might be a c C1 Dave can you remember there's some C1 um there's a c18 in on Route 15 Route 94 up by Monroe Schoolhouse but there's a school there's a school yeah the down old ding far but there's a school within 500 feet I don't think you're thinking of that area uh so you can narrow the problem with the pro you have to pick a Zone and then you and you pretty much with retail you could be consistent with the master plan as long as the retail is in a zone that allows the sale of other Goods so consistency with the current master plan will work generally speaking in any retail Zone but then the standards would be what might make it hard to uh for an applicant to meet um the other very fascinating thing about cannabis is that the council has control by that other ordinance of who gets the license and if it's limited to one or two that's makes it easier to Envision Pro you know Pro how many they're going to be and where are they going to be now that could be changed by a new ordinance of the council to add licenses to it uh and that might mean more than two but it's a a three it's a three ordinance system is the point to know and you're involved in the one the or the land use thank and just for clarification that distance restriction I think that's on the structure right not on the lot line that's the way I read the one about retail but he was talking think about cultivation retail is on lot line retail is on the lot line the it's in the ordance the cultivation we other ones are building the building at least 400 feet from the nearest dwelling yeah 400 ft from the nearest dwelling located on a neighboring lot which distance shall be measured from the corners of each building that are closest to each other that's in the retail yeah um but any it's not the you know like one of the things that might be possible this is these are just general standards that have been developed by Ursula and other towns maybe with how to try to have conditions about where could such a retail facility go you don't need these particular conditions and you can also do something I'm not saying you should but you can you don't have to have everything be a condition of a conditional use you can you can have another section on regulatory standards for cannabis that aren't necessarily conditions to a conditional use but that's gets a little complicated and I get we're not it's easier to focus on this ordinance draft for now are there any lot line or dwelling property building restrictions for liquor stores or schools or places I think there is something from the state code it's not doesn't come from zoning but I could be wrong and I and I believe there's something about uh distance to a school or something like that for for liquor licenses um but that's ABC regulations not regulatory uh not usually land use ordinances um I see does it do we have any sense of where we would like to allow one or two I mean it might be good to like help us focus our attention on like could you put one in the economic development Zone as a conditional use no retail it says accessory retail sales I don't know what the word accessory means in there good yeah in the in the zone in the Ed Zone good good question Joan there the there is an allowance for the for someone who is using their building to make something to to sell to sell some of their things right but the but the concept I think we're focused now solely on retail and that there is no allowance to in the Ed Zone to just have a retail store okay that that is not a permitted use in the zone independent of you having your place where you make the products that you're trying to sell in your 25% square footage of the uh building for re for retail so Ed zones not really a retail Zone pdrm 1 and two are not really retail zones um pced is does allow retail but had I'm not sure there was any problem problem with those with that zone for these setbacks that's the property across the street from North Village um I don't think there's any houses I don't think there's a school or church there's residences across the street but there's even they Assisted Living must be at least 300 ft or 400 500 ft from some parts of the pced Zone um what I what might be helpful is again this was just kind of like done cursory is that um to get a better idea so like the C1 Zone permits retail is scattered around there's probably going to be portions of the C1 Zone where just knocked out based on the way the ordinance is written what I could do is put together a map basically of the structures and then do a 400 or 500 foot buffer from them to show what properties would be viable um you know some of or how I read it which might need just need clarification about being on the same premises as other food consumption places that's subject to change so there could be a like a a multi-tenant strip mall right now that doesn't have any food places but like allows for food so there could be like or there could be let's say there's a Chinese food place and and that's the only restaurant it could it could leave and then become this and then it would be allowed so there's like some some things you could think through um um but then that would exclude future tenants from being restaurant right I think they really I think the council's really thinking though just it will not be in the same premise same part of the building as the Cannabis yes so we probably just need to clarify that we won't have both food and and just and just to clarify I don't believe that's something that the council is introducing I think that's a state regulation that they can't be collocated in the same Zone you can't in the same that you can't but can be adjacent to each other yeah we just want to make sure that the ordinance is clear for the future users of it um but what I can do from a basic level of looking at the zones is do that buffer analysis to basically understand where residences are and where those kind of uses the sensitive uses like churches and parks and everything we don't want it to be or can't be near um we can see that on a map um so even though the C1 Zone which I think is probably a viable candidate for this it allows retail again it's scattered there's other opportunities for it there are places where it's not directly adjacent to residential or um it does have some like buffer um so I can do a quick map analysis of that and then also the pced Zone which I think we've all kind of thought about in our head as a good option but I just want to make sure on paper that it looks that way cther one question I have there's a daycare by the way I'm sorry there is a daycare in the Ed Zone it's behind it I looked it's far enough away but yeah we just had an application that had that that daycare but it's it's on the other side it's probably 1,000 ft away probably from that property one question I had going through this and trying to think it out a little bit is you know when you look at we know what our setbacks are for the sparta Township zones and for each each Zone's got its own but then when I look at the setbacks that that the state may have for a cannabis they may be larger than what we have in our zones so our our Zone may have a a 10 foot setback the the state ordinance for cannabis may say 50 foot so how do we prevent a conflict there and improving approving something that that could be in Conflict these are conditional uses I believe you can make these additional these bul standard we have to go through that and understand what they are and put them in the conditions which I I some of them have been so if you look at the Cannabis cultivator there's an access and setback requirement which I I assume is based off I don't know if it's based off the state regulation or just like that's one issue that we wanted to get clarifi ification one we'll get it from Council cuz I think when we initially thought about it uh we wanted to put it at the state minimum to start with because I know we can always do more we just can't do less than the state and so I'm not clear yet on whether the setbacks that we put in there are at the state minimum or are they based on experience in other townships and we put the setbacks I don't know ursy you're here so the experience so the one thing we may do um because I think that will give you more insight into what zones would be appropriate um because you know for example you pointed out under the under as written now under the TCC um it may be too close to a residential but that's because we put 500 ft when the state minimum is actually 200 feet and so if you put 200 feet then that opens up the state minimum now you know Mr day has raised a point which is well that setback that the state provides may be less than uh what we provide and so my understanding would that issue then come up under the conditional use analysis saying listen the state said 200 ft for retail um we in that zone require 300 ft and so Mr applicant or Mrs applicant um you're going to need to justify why you get 100 ft less and that part of the conditional use analysis is that right so even if we could put the Zone in that's less than um allowable in that zone the applicants just going to have to know that when they come before you under an application that that's something that they're going to have to meet their burden on I think I think from looking at the the proposed ordinance these setbacks would be greater than what's required in the ordinance right now and these would govern this use as a condition so if they can't meet that condition they'd have to be they'd get kicked from a permitted use to a zoning board as a higher threshold of proof uh and higher burden of proof to show why they would get that the state's uh recommended minimums or their model ordinance has no bearing on our requirements I think Ron was saying do if our zones have a lesser setback and they can meet that then how does their the higher setback threshold in this ordinance Rule and essentially for conditional use for this particular it rule they would have to meet this but we just would have to know what they are make sure that they're in the conditional use um if there was any of these uses because they're both conditional whether it's cultivator or retail because they're both conditional if this ordinance passes anytime you see a cannabis use it would be based upon a conditional use there's no there's no permitted as of right cannabis use so we always be looking at the conditions here condition I I I have a question um are retail licenses at the local level that they don't need like an additional state license they do oh they do so they come to us they have to have a state they have to go through the they get a state first and then they get an approval here and then do we have an idea of how many licenses we're looking to only two just two okay and one of those licenses is restricted to like a minority or women or or um small not small business veteran veteran owned business which you have to get certification from the state to be designated as one of those okay and are they different with like if you say that we at some point wanted to have cultivators or wholesalers or they're different or yeah they're different I think you know that what happened was I think you know Council after you know consideration and then you know trying to um realizing that you know the amount of work that this planning board has and the amount of work that the the municipality has that at this point it's probably better to it back see how the retail goes um and what and then if we get interest on manufacturing or wholesale um and also with the distribution part of it that was really you don't get a tax on that anyway um and my understanding is a lot of the retail don't even use the distributor anyway part of it so it's not necessary for the functioning of their business to use the distributor license so it's um but anyway I think that we we can always uh add uses later basically experience so I think it it was to sort of start slow okay thank you Catherine any of the other towns that you plan for have legalized adult used cannabis yes do you think you can share like an ordinance or two I I I think I have shared my some of my input on it um and I can um they're all written a little bit differently some some do the same where they restrict the number of licenses townwide some don't um some permit them as a right some make them conditional um I have probably two or three in a different range of conservative to more wide open that I could you know share with this board can I ask a question is there like a big demand to have Cannabis stores are people not wanting to move to Sparta because there's not a cannabis store uh what's what's what's going why is this issue come up now um so just to um uh zoom out a little bit uh as as we noted before this ordinance is admittedly incomplete and it allowed us a vehicle to engage with this board to get your feedback on it because the day job of this board is well the night job of this board is to what gets built where and so um we're entertaining this idea and we wanted to uh to solicit your feedback and so this is an Avenue for that uh so this is healthy conversation and I appreciate the board time I know the board's very busy with this um and then because it's incomplete this is going to have to come back again I understand all that but it's a good way to get a dialogue going um so um to answer your question uh directly uh we are um speaking only for myself we're looking at this is uh uh we have had some uh inquiries into into this since the state regul the state um regulations came out and there were a number of businesses that had approached us over the years um but um speaking for only for myself um this is to me a safety issue right um that we know that um it's there's uh legal adult use here and um and for again speaking for myself I just want it to be sold and and safe safely regulated inspected by us uh people here in Sparta and um this it's it seemed like the right time to have this conversation Christine you asked about the man didn't when when the legalization of marijuana was originally on the ref on the ballot to vote for legalization wasn't it like 68% of Sparta voted to approve yeah 23 something like that okay so our there's demand our residents are in favor of of selling marijuana here yep yeah along with the 52 other communities or towns in New Jersey just going down the list most of them short towns that have legalized I think there's about 140 yeah oh I was just looking it up maybe it's up yeah right here in Andover yep yep La Y in Franklin also yeah okay let me just ask some questions if you wanted to start with slowly and just start with one thing why not start with like a cultivator or manufacturer as opposed to a re retailer I agree and um then as a followup to that question one of the things I let me just address that a little bit you know it sounds easy but manufacturing of marijuana is fairly complicated it can it can be cultivated in a greenhouse it can even be manufactured in I'll you know call themar railroad cars basically manufacturing facilities that can be bought online for stock manufacturing they can also be manufactured cultivated and manufactured in very elaborate buildings with 24/7 water and lighting and power and air control and negative air control and carbon filtration and very effective techniques for rotor control it's not it's it's high-tech um cultivation in the truest sense and it's important to have this type of the Odor Control in a very high level expensive um maintenance manner so it's and it can be fairly big in terms of a building and fairly high and have no windows so just this is interesting to limit to retail means you really are going to be focused on um a couple of stores and they probably you know if you look at some of the examples they're not usually the biggest stores in the world because the product is so expensive at at the and the sale technique is so uh easy that the demand is there so by focusing on retail you are able to sort of narrow you down your locations and that's what's interesting about this conditional use if you could change this to be not conditions of conditional use you can make them standards standards can be dealt with by the planning board um you know if you really end up talking about two stores you you really aren't talking a modest amount of change in terms of physical Vis visual appearance it might even be almost hard to tell that it's anything other than a retail store so and you can in you can do things with design control on that so I I think I think it's good that the council is saying to you let's focus in on retail because it there's so many issues about manufacturing and location for manufacturing and size that it this is a good start a good way to learn about it also focus in on it um you you won't have Odor Control problems in just a retail facility that's generally no but um has there been any study about crime um it's a cash business and I've read about many places Colorado Washington State State when they opened them up that they had a drastic increase in armed robberies so I just you know I don't know if that's what you're asking us or if you're just asking us to identify a Zone but I know it would be a concern that I would like to see addressed I me speaking of Colorado um there actually is a study out there um a recent one I don't I can probably pull it up if I have it but it's actually a more helpful one which is what they did in Colorado they did a compar comparon of um areas that allowed cannabis retail with us other areas of uh Colorado that did not have it so it's sort of Zone to Zone almost or town to town and what they found actually was the opposite was that uh cannabis retail areas that had cannabis retail had less crime and why is that well it's because if you when you disallow it you open up the black market and so and people steal and do everything to support the black market once you have it legalized um it actually crime went down and I can I can share that study with um with the planning board I'm happy to do so but I have it in here somewhere because yeah I think it's somewhat intuitive people think that oh there's going to be more actually it's not and that sort of the the thought process that a lot of the members of the council had was that you know regulating something uh you have much more discretion if you look at the actual statute the ordinance there are a lot of provisions in there that you do not have if you are say what we have now in Sparta which is sort of the CBD THC um all those Provisions that uh they don't have to comply with a single one of them they don't have any security protocol uh we can put standards like uh an actual CCTV camera uh that feeds into the police department so that the police department has a you know realtime feed into the dispensary to see if hey there's a kid that just walked in with the Sparta School hoodie H maybe we should get down there now right now that same kid can show up to a THC one and under the gifting ordinance possibly get you know illegal marijuana right now and so that was a concern that we have um that we just felt this was a safer way to do it because cannabis is here it's it's here in Andover and why are we seeding to Andover you know uh the regulation of this I'm sure Andover is doing a fine job and complying with the law but I don't know that I'd rather have that control over it here in Sparta so that's sort of the rationale just to piggy back off the safety for a second every item sold at a licensed dispensary is tested by an independent laboratory that is millions of dollars worth of equipment often run by PhD laboratory technicians and they test from microbiomes to potency to all the chemical factors in the ingredients so when Mr Mayor was talking about the safety regulations around it it goes just Way Beyond of what you could presently go out and get to the store now where you have no idea what's in it no I absolutely agree with that and that's one type of study looking at how you were getting it illegally versus getting it from a store but what I was getting it is once you have the store there and you have all that cash and the opportunity for arm robbery that's what I was reading about I don't know Ernie you I think had something you it's probably the same as any liquor store I mean my issue is is really just in in you know I clientele yeah I'm I'm sure there's a lot of very upstanding people are coming into the store there's also a lot that aren't bring come into our town to to to go by let them go to hand over Newton and Franklin so so folks if I can um I I think the intent of the of the discussion tonight was really consistency and location I we're kind of going off in different tangents we could we could be here till till 11 o'clock um we we like to wrap up here at at at 10: and we still have a lot of stuff to do so um let me just and and and I want to give the public a chance to to give their comments as well so let me suggest that there's anyone on the dice that hasn't spoken that has any issues that you want to put out please feel free to do so try to keep it concise and then I'm going to ask for the public if we can get to the other business and then capture your comments at the end of the meeting where we do the open to the public comment I don't know what time is that you can do that yeah just to again want to make sure we get everything done tonight and we're you know again we're supposed to end up at 10 we're probably probably going to go to 10:15 10:20 and don't want to keep either us or the public out here to to to wrap this up so um so anyone in the D have any any pressing questions or comments that You' want to add that that haven't been added okay just do we have clear next steps for this y the only question I have I yeah the map was yeah so Katherine you're going to uh take the next step on this I am okay I am I'll I'll do I'll do an analysis of the um the retail use as we discussed tonight um mostly in the pced and the C1 Zone if anything else gets uncovered as part of a deeper dive um I'll bring that back um and if I don't know if the board wants to I know they proposed ordinance included the cultivator uh just the retail just so just oh okay just retail okay further guidance I'm sorry okay Dan if you could uh if we could maybe model what 500 400 300 feet might look like in in terms of how much U available u space that opens up I can do that yeah yeah thank you okay great that was my GNA ask if you need more feedback or guidance on distances but no I can do that okay yeah exactly okay all right so with that why don't we move into the updates um so Deputy Mayor buedi any update from the Town Council yeah just a few few here of referring mainly to the October 22nd meeting uh first uh four updates first is we had uh John Drake from Overcoat LLC visit us and speak to us for a little while he is the consultant that is offered by the Township to potential businesses that are interested in Sparta um he's aligned and meets with our business development committee um he gives guidance on zones the application process Etc u a couple highlights that he I just wanted to share with uh the board and the public is uh first it was uh refreshing to hear from uh Mr Drake who works closely with the business Community here um saying that he doesn't agree with some of the anti-b business perception that he's uh heard over months and months by some people so uh that was refreshing to hear that from someone who is close to the business Community um he talked about the uh very complimentary to our employees um he said they were very professional kind caring especially in terms of the intake process um so that was welld deserved uh he also uh was complimentary towards the rework processes and forms to make things more user friendly uh he he thought that was a big Improvement um and he was also complimentary thankful to the uh planning board and Zoning Board uh just the the timing and the operations of things and how greatly that's improved uh over the months interestingly uh when he was asked about does every municipality offer the kind of services that we provide uh through him uh he said no he said maybe one other that he's aware of and uh finally another another positive comment uh we asked him again about the site plan waiver subcommittee and he he did confirm that you know we are one of the only few or only that he's aware of that offers that service um so I just wanted to share that overall he was very complimentary and it was good hearing from someone who is charged with working with the business Community um to uh make sure there's a positive perception out there so I I thankk him for that and also our employees uh secondly the council approve the annual best practices inventory uh that's uh something that's done annually it comes out from the New Jersey Department of uh Community Affairs and it's a comprehensive list of uh best practices of course um mainly around to Township operations and requirements around um transparency and lots of other categories um if you'd like any more information on the document or the categories please let me know uh third is uh obviously we Council had a lengthy lengthy discussion around cannabis and the draft ordinance is uh uh finally the council will be meeting to discuss affordable housing uh we're going to meet uh with our with our planner and with uh Ursula from Tom Ryan's office to had discussion around the uh affordable housing numbers and what's going to be happening with that and we're targeting to do that in an executive session uh in the next several weeks uh that concludes my report thank you okay thank you Miss dbar yes um I have a report from our environmental commission and this is from October 24th and I'd like to share with all of you that we're starting a speaker series and the speaker series will first um have our we'll have our first event at our next meeting November 14th at 7 p.m. and uh it will be about recycl in Sparta and at the Sussex County Municipal Authority so we can find out all the latest about um how not only what's going on with recycling in Sparta but also um how we can recycle things that aren't picked up curbside and where we can take them uh and I have heard the the speaker before and she's excellent so this will take place at our regular meeting on November 14th at 7 pm. um oh this series is being developed by our EC member Christine Rogers so um also I was going to say but I think we all know that our Trails committee meetings um are starting and that will be tomorrow at 7 pm here and let's see um oh I did want to mention one other thing the Sussex County Farm Bureau is updating their Farm preservation plan it is very outdated um just like our master plan was and um I happened to just be curious about it so I went to the meeting um last month and they're having a second meeting but that's for municipalities so I'm asked to invite Jim Zep to the call which is November 12th um and um one of the things that I noticed on the um open space and Recreation plan was was is that um people want to see us preserve our land here in Sparta and if we want to keep ourselves rural that's the best way one of the best ways we can do especially our Farms um we only have about five Farms um in Sparta so if we if we could go and um if we could find out more about how to connect with uh the Sussex County Farm Bureau and what they're offering um maybe we could take advantage of it in the future so that's my report thank you okay thank you m okay uh the um master plan subcommittee so our last meeting was on October 29th uh the team was focused on engaging on the community survey um trying to find as many different Avenues as we can to to get responses I've actually just pulled up the site tonight so as of right now we've received 922 responses so we got to keep the push hopefully we can get that number up even higher because you know we're really focused on getting as many as much input from the community as we can so everybody please if if if you haven't taken the survey please do if if you see folks that you think may not have taken a survey please remind them and I and I know everybody's doing that so so thank you everybody um we're also focusing on on identifying and meeting with Community stakeholder groups um I'll have more of an update on that in in December the master plan subcommittee is going to be twice in December we couldn't find a date to to to pull something together in November so we'll get uh to in December and uh I'll update based on what comes out of there so that's the end what I have Mr enr yeah monitor site plan subcommittee we um Miss Derek will be very happy we approved our minutes for September granted we didn't get any new applications in September so it was fairly uh straightforward but those meetings are uh those minutes are approved uh Risha continues to do a tremendous job and we uh certainly appreciate all her support um I I believe our October minutes are uh close to being finalized and we should have an update we are up to 37 reviewed applications for the minor site plan subcommittee as of the September minutes so we're doing a great job okay that concludes updates unless anybody has anything that you'd like to offer that that wasn't covered all right so that brings us to we have a resolution for approval tonight uh resolution 2024-25 the approval of the plan board application 24- 721 for brainstation at 26 scale Court Unit uh unit a block 12008 lot 11 in the Ed Zone um has everyone had a chance to take a look at it and if so would anybody like to make a motion to approve resolution 2024 D21 I'll make a motion I have a second a second okay does anybody have any comments or discussion that you'd like to introduce uh question isn't it 2024 d22 I did I say the wrong number yes thank you I believe you said 21 I did thank you I think uh Dory changed it or is changing it because it is 22 is the next yeah on the actual resolution it says -22 okay okay um seeing no discussion and and uh I guess we take a roll call vote please Deputy Mayor Dean blumetti yes Janette bertke yes Joan Ferman yes Justin Canales yes Celeste Luciano yes Ernie RX yes Brian Zimmerman yes chairman Ronde yes all right the motion to to approve the resolution is passed and that then gets us to the open to the public session um so anyone from the public has any comments that You' like to make uh please step up to the microphone and please State and spell your name Mr chair can I make a recommendation just on the regarding cannabis comments um the topic for tonight in the scope was really just about uh potential areas for retail um there'll be numerous opportunities and probably we want the whole Council to hear comments around cannabis in general I would just ask if people can keep that in mind thank you okay good evening my name is Mark Scott and I'm Pueblo Parkway um couple comments I'm sure as you're all aware the DCA and the COA requirement numbers all came out a few weeks ago um I had a chance to read the document and uh still don't understand the math in it but um everything I've read says that this town should join the COA lawsuit as soon as possible there are other many other topnotch quality towns such as Sparta that are G getting together and suing suing the suing the DCA and I think that we should start we should start and start planning on joining that lawsuit as soon as possible I think the cut off on that I'm not really sure when that is someone else may know that better than I but I think it's like in the first quarter so Mr Collins I believe that that that type of decisions with the Town Council yes that be up to the township Council okay well then thank you um uh I just also wanted to mention Barbara that was here earlier speaking to us all uh before she left she did indicate that if we donate land into the into the state that reduces our co- requirement so that's just something we could think about that that is I don't mean I don't think I heard Barbara say that no well she said it to me okay and there were several other witnesses to it I don't want to question Barbra but donating land to the state does not reduce your COA obligation or it's not Co anymore your DCA A4 uh allocation obligation it's a very it I totally agree with you mark the math it makes no sense but that's what I have colloquially called COA maath now I guess I can call it DCA math it is a totally difficult system to understand but that is the state of New Jersey legislative decision to have DCA do use that formula from The Jacobson decision in Mercer County and that has been imposed upon us and that system does not reduce your obligation based upon how much land you dedicate to the state but that I'm not disagreeing with Barbara I don't know what she said there are other reasons to perhaps sell land to the state that we did hear about in the meeting uh but that won't reduce the uh the DCA allocation so stay tuned it's a very you're going to be very active in this in the next year so still maybe let it become part of the transition because it's very uh important to the governing body and the planning board so another good reason to join the lawsuit um the other thing is I just wanted to talk about the marijuana thing uh I mean just what are we talking about here the the Town Council spoke about about raising taxes and raising money with these with these shops and then we're talking about enforcement but the but the state is only we're only going to get two cents from any retail sales so let's just think about that we're going to have a police officer looking at a monitor watching for that kid with a hoodie and that got that's going to cost about $100,000 a year for him to be watching that all day and then there's benefits and costs and Automobiles to get and and other items to get to the pot store to get the kid with the hoodie and so there's $180,000 a year of cost to enforce what what Ernie was talking about we're going to have all kinds of people coming in this town so we're going to spend $180,000 and we're going to earn two cents on the dollar that means that we have to sell $9 million wor a pot that means that everybody in this town now these are just the just the voters the 17,100 voters that we have in this town all right everybody's going to have to start smoking $529 worth of pot per year that's a huge number to make enough to pay for the guy to watch the monitor and to go to the store to look for the kid with the Sparta High School hoodie so I mean what do we what I mean are we going to bring marijuana into our town for $180,000 of Revenue I I appreciate the comments but I I think you you recognize in terms of this board and and our role here we can say it's consistent or not consistent but the policy decision on whether you bring in or not is really with the Town Council okay and I'm just asking you to be the rational back stop thank you okay any other members of the public Jenny derck 27 Mount Pleasant Road um because it was brought up as a question but from the Das uh there are a number of resources that I can share with you from the center of prevention about your concerns the concern about safety was brought up by me at the township council meeting I asked specifically direct questions of the um police chief and I asked him specifically do you need this ordinance in order to keep our town safe from illegal cannabis sales and he unequivocally said no um beyond that since 1988 the um drug-free school zones have established a a set a setback of a thousand feet why would we move it shorter just because with a stroke of a pen we removed the wording from what uh I forget the name what what it used to be called the dangerous substance and now it's cannabis it's the same thing it's still a drug why are we shortening that from 400 from a th000 ft which was established in 1988 all the way back to 400 ft thank you for your comments anybody else on the public have comments will this topic be discussed again with by the planning board um well when we get the ordinance back uh again we'll get it back to look at it from a consistency perspective uh not whether it's it's um the right thing to do or not um I think those are discussions probably best um and and at to be held at the Town Council over that makes the policy decisions so um but we will be discussing it again from a consistency perspective okay does anybody else any other questions okay so seeing none oh one more just wanted to say one thing fear comes from a lack of knowledge address please my name is Devin poopo and I live on 139 Westshore Trail I just wanted to say that fear comes from a lack of knowledge and a state of ignorance that's all I wanted to say all right thank you for your comment anybody else okay seeing none uh would somebody like to make a motion to adjourn make a motion to adjourn I'll second all in favor say I I great thank you everybody have have a great night and a safe trip home