welcome back everybody I'd like to call to order uh the township of Springfield Board of adjustment meeting January 16th 2024 adequate notice has been given in accordance with the Sunshine Law notice was published on December 13th in the Star Ledger one of the official newspapers for the township of Springfield for the year 2023 and posted in the Annex Building on December 14th 20 2023 can we please rise for a flag salute I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay now I'm going to do a roll call Mr Stephen Hawkin Mr Michael wxin here Mr St Fen bound Mr Raj a sahada here M Mara naporano M Anika doson here Mr Joe Bianco Mr Mark Cunningham here and Miss jod Cohen here we have a quarum okay now I am going to take nominations for chair I'd like to nominate Jody second you want to do it are there any other nominations great uh for uh Ms Cohen Mr Mark Cunningham yes Mr Michael wxin yes Mr Stephen Hawkin yes Mr Steven fenal yes Mr sahada yes Miss naano yes Miss dson yes and Miss Cen yes yes congratulations your meeting Madam chair thank you very much thank you everyone for your continued trust in me to lead the board um we will move to nominations for vice chairperson excellent is there a second second all I'll switch it up a little there any other nominations Mr fenam yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr wxin yes Mr sahada yes Miss naano yes Miss doson yes uh chair Cohen yes and Mr Cunningham yes okay congratulations congratulations uh we will then take we're moving on to nominations for the board attorney I think everyone has received um the RFQ responses and um we received two from Bruce Bergen and Scott sammon is there a nomination for the board attorney I'll make a nomination for fromy still I'll second any other nominations no great uh Vice chair Cunningham yes Mr Cunningham uh Mr Hawkin yes Mr wxin yes Mr bin bound yes Mr sahada yes Miss naporano yes Miss Dodson yes and chair Cohen yes motion passes congrats Bruce congratulations Bruce thank you all Madam chair um I know it's not on the agenda but um oh actually yes it is conflict board attorney I didn't put um for we're not there yet but engineer and planner uh you guys usually do a conflict engineer and Banner as well it's just not on here just bring it to your attention okay thank you okay so I'll start with nominations for the conflict board attorney excellent is there a second second any other nominations Vice chair Cunningham yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr yes Mr Fen bound Mr Sahar yes Miss nean yes Miss doson yes and Cher Colin yes motion passes all right next is nominations for the board engineer we received four responses to the rfqs Mike disco M disco and Associates Victor vegra from Harbor Consultants Michael neglia from neglia Engineering Associates and Michael mclen from CME engineering um has everyone reviewed and is there a nomination for our board engineer i' like to make a nomination make the school Associates second are there any other nominations Vice chair Cunningham yes Mr wex yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr fbal Mr sahada yes Miss naporano yes Miss Dodson yes CH Cohen yes congratulations congratulations okay so now I'm going to do nominations for conflict board engineer um with the same or is there a nomination for conflict board engineer Madam chair in the past the board has nominated the township engineer as the conflict engineer which happens to be CME if you don't know okay I think that makes sense so nomination for CME CME M oh I'm sorry M M M yes confusing okay I got a nomination do I have a second second Vice chair Cunningham yes um chair Cohen yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr wxin yes Mr Fen bound Mr sahada yes Miss naaran yes Miss doson yes that's it motion passes excellent um next we are looking at a board planner I will take nominations for board planner we received four rfqs excuse me um one from Victor vegra Harbor Consultants which is Katherine sarmad one from Keenan Hughes with Philip price one from Michael neglia neglia Engineering Associates and one from Michael mlen CME engineering do we have a nomination for the board planner nomination for Mar Consultants cther s I'll second Vice chair Cunningham yes Miss doson yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr wxin yes Mr bin bam yes Mr sahada yes Miss naano and chair Cen yes motion passes thank you madam chair I don't know what you want to do in this situation because Harbor consultant is also the township planner okay so so we reviewed the rfqs and we we'll take a nomination for the conflict board planner at this time um I will nominate Keenan Hughes from Philip price okay is there a second I'll second that okay any other nominations Cher Cohen yes Mr Haw yes Mr wxin yes Mr B bound yes Mr sahada yes Miss naano yes Miss Dodson yes and vice chair Cunningham yes motion passes excellent um okay we are now moving on to nominations for the board secretary this is obviously a very tough decision have a list of names nobody else submitted my friend so nominations for the board secretary second Vice chair Cunningham yes Mr wxin yes Mr Hoin yes Mr Fen bound yes Mr yes Miss naporano Miss Dawson and chair Cohen yes absolutely thank you very much board thank you it and finally we will have nominations for the assistant secretary which normally under the circumstances uh board engineer is nominated so I will nominate Mike disco as the assistant secretary is there second I will second chair Cohen yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr wxin yes Bion bound yes Mr sahada Miss naano Miss doson yes and vice chair Cunningham yes congratulations um the next item on the agenda is are we do we move on the official newspaper yeah yeah okay so the Star Ledger normally we do the local Source because it's a lot less expensive as the primary newspaper okay in some circumstances because of timing because they take a the local Source takes a week to publish um we usually go with the Star Ledger as the secondary in case there's a timing issue and I have to notice quickly because they will publish within three days uh for for residents that are um publishing in the newspaper their legal notices it's like the local source is at least $125 less expensive so normally we do that as the primary and the Star Ledger as the secondary okay so motion to authoriz the local source as the official newspaper for the Zoning Board second who second that Mike and the secondary being The Star Ledger yes with the secondary being The Star Ledger Vice chair Cunningham yes Mr wxin yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr verbal yes Mr sahada yes Miss naporano yes Miss doson yes and Sher Cen yes great um okay and the meeting dates were circulated to all board members um so everyone reviewed the meeting dates and if so I guess we need a motion to adopt the meeting dates for 2024 we with November to be determined is that yes or is that going to be a discussion right now or we have to wait sir I'll I'll pull the board it's just difficult because of the league of municipalities and Thanksgiving and right always an issue understood understood okay so um is there a motion to adopt the meeting dates for 2024 moved thank you great Mr fersen bam yes Vice chair Cunningham yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr wxin yes Mr sahada yes Miss naano Miss doson yes and chair Cohen yes motion passes excellent um move to close the reorg or do we just move on okay we're going to open to our regular meeting now um the first order of business that we have are resolutions to memorialized the first resolution up is application 202- 25147 new Brook Lane block 301 lot 32 uh request for sidey yard variance has everyone had an opportunity to review the resolution and if so is there a motion to approve to appr is there a second second place chair Cunningham yes um M who second I'm sorry Mr wex yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr bbam yes Mr sahada yes Miss n br yes Miss doson yes CH Cen yes motion passes second application up uh resolution for memorialization is application 202326140 yes Miss naano Miss doson yes chair Cunningham yes and chair Cohen yes motion passes and the final application sorry the final resolution for memorialization is application 2019-8 this is uh the extension of time request for New Jersey American Water Company 46 Mars Avenue block 404 lot three has everyone had an opportunity to review the resolution are there questions or comments if there are none is there a motion to approve I'll make a motion to Second miss naano Mr sahada yes Mr Haw yes Mr wxin yes Mr fbal yes Miss doson yes Vice chair Cunningham yes and chair Cowen yes both pass excellent okay we are going to move to the one application on for this evening and that is application 2023-2024 266-268 Mars Avenue block 206 Lot 10 this is a request for a Mund preliminary and final site plan approval good evening how are you Gary [Music] good the principal of 266c the reason we're here this evening is S Building first building is6 was determined at time ofs reason I have our engineer here AR gentl fire escape company Max and of course I have I'd like call Sarah Li hello everybody Sarah Lee Berman architect registered state of New Jersey please ra raise your right hand do you swear or affirm to tell the truth yes please State your full name spell your last name give us your office address Sarah Lieberman 14 Treetop Drive Springfield and expert in architecture yes I'm registered architect since 2007 and the owner you've testified before this board before um any objections to miss liberman testifying as an expert in architecture continue so this laborman could you explain to the board we come to you were you submitted building plans yes we submitted building plans and it was determined we were simply requesting that whatever was existing cified meing that two departmentment that were upstairs were legal zoning ese a fire escape to the front apartment are you in position to showe testified yep so that is the new disced quot oh yeah so there was another question disc be cover and no there will yes we had discussed that the fire escap in the same Gray board members I have question you say differences between this plan now and the plan at the last meeting was there any other changes besides the fire station no so the existing is a is a single apartment on the second floor and now you want to make two apartments no there were two apartments on the second floor in your for plan not much that no the existing I believe there are two apartments there I'm only we talking 268 266 has an office oh I'm sorry so it had a okay so now the office would becoming an Department correct and on the first floor staying as an office oral commercial not okay I was just a little confused drawing okay that's why IED a little bit but I didn't want I keep the change and here but if there was an office there would you still need a fireus case that is the it was office they would have unfortunately as we all know office space is not renting freely of has bought the proper increase and you know the appeal of the building on Mars Avenue and incre the um preference an apartment in L of that office space on the first floor no okay second floor and there's one apartment on the second floor right now or there's two there's two separate spaces currently on the second floor all right and the fire escape is for the first the front of those apartments correct the plan currently now has um only one apartment on Mars Avenue we can move both of the apartments and amend the plan so that both of the bedrooms are on Mars Avenue and are reachable by fire truck and Ladder within of the street that board as well still planning on putting the fire escape but it increases the egress and access to the apartment dwelling overall where are you putting the fire escs us which leads us to um I don't know if you all have the notes from uh Mr disco the first question says it does not violate any sidey setbacks on his notes and then going into I believe I answer the second um comment which was about the roof there is no roof and then the third comment which is about the access um of fire trucks and it was noted that there was comment being sto from the police and fire department and how high is the fire speed I would also offer that the existing is 9 one in currently so we are so a fire truck would not F correct the height height right so your fire truck would not be able to go underneath it it would hit is what she saying no I think I'm talking about the width the driveway we have a dimension for the height is what understood but if it can't fit through regardless we know the of a fire it says here that the minimum is 12T one way and 18 ft for two-way we currently have 9 foot at the front of the building so in my personal opinion professional opinion if it can't fit through doesn't matter how tall it is I don't think you need to be a pro for that all right so so instead you're putting a fire St each as to each of the two apartments what is the me the exact route of Escape should there be a need so as as I was discussing before there as Windows sized each of the bedrooms where is the fire escape with respect to the bedroom so currently in the front apartment the two are on the side but we can redesign it so that the two bedrooms are to the front meing to noris Avenue so that there is direct from the street where a fire truck would be able to go as well as I'm not talking about the fire trucks I'm talking about the people who are in the building correct so how do they get to leave they can leave either through a Stairway from the living resal either through the fire esape no the fire escapees on the side of the building this is the front of the building correct there's no fire escape they would have to jump lad right lad but he's saying fire escape there's no fire escape correct so the fire es the and this is as to both of the two apartments or either the rear apartment would have has direct access stairc as well Asen at a distance of how far in other words that that thing could be there if the resident is 200 feet away not 200 I'm exaggerating you get my point though I just would like to uh you to be more specific in um the furthest distance a person would have to walk should they be obligated to leave through the through that mechanism es yeah the depth of thank you I have a question if the fire escape is within the you're saying the fire escape would be on the side of the building here how would this apartment get to there6 right no no no so if we're at 266 I'm sorry and the fire escape on the interior wall how does the person in that building get to the get in that apartment get to the fire skate window so so both Apartments have access to the fire escap no only one okay one apartment has access to a stairwell that's already existing in the back and the other apartment they are requesting the the fire escape so that there would be access out to the street Point exit and how do the windows open such that a person could get climb out through the window you can't you open is is are these windows those um per residential code there's a specific size that window I have a question is there any kind of apparatus that you put into the bedrooms that could work as like an interior ladder that somebody could put out the window and be able to that would C get out get out of B don't don't know there is I think own do we have the ability as as a body to require that as part of an ordinance what the U so uh the the uh access as as questioned or as questioned which or is indic ated to um make it easier to escape through a window it's my question is do we have the right to require that irrespective of whether it complies with your addition to the asking that's correct as a condition um I think we have the right to deny it and he has to put a sprinkler system in is that that that's it I mean we have the right to just deny it and he has to sprinkler the building I think that's I think that would be we can do that too over over rope right so I have a question then so the fire escape if you decide that you're going to move the bedrooms to the front so that they have access where the fire truck would be the fire escape when installed where would the access point be it would be like in the kitchen the living space okay so if somebody's stuck in the bedroom because the fire starts in the kitchen and cannot get to the Escape you're you're telling me going to this point that they'd have to wait for the fire truck to appear so that they'd be able to actually climb out the egress window depart to know they're stuck in their bedroom correct good point is there any commentary provided by Captain mron with regards to not putting in a sprinkler system in this building is from the Department plans go to the building ex compon as official iswhat okay with that as a building no Juris as and fire captain they have their own perview as to what they so they're obviously just concerned build me of and to confirm one apartment has the fire escape and the the stairs that exist the other apartment has the stairs and a second and that second staircase goes to an outside door into the office space okay what's the reservation of putting in a sprinkler system why is that hold on don't leave if this was currently an apartment and a commercial why was there notal syst already in it yeah but there's also not two residential units there one was a office space one was a residential unit residential residential unit had two egresses creating a new residential unit does not have two egresses but they were not both Apartments correct right so it's not so it was never non-conforming non right yeah we were here Mr s's testimony one time were two apartments there commercial office think last was one one office par and the the ladder that or the stairs that would come down from from this would it be in the near the front of the building would it be in the middle or would it be in the back okay it's right but the the latter part of it so the the one that goes to the street if God forbid there's a fire would it be in the right but so my concern is really if a car would to be parked there would the ladder hit the [Music] car thank you very much the I don't know distance from to the Escape is you're saying it was 12 and 18 ft for two-way traffic this is that's that's that's for the the alleyway but the actual truck is a 12 according to the notes presented by Mr disco the ordinance according to note number three um the ordinance currently calls for 12 ft one way to access the property right but that's not the WID of the that's the WID that's the width of what the alleyway is required the fire truck made they have I don't know what the size of but maybe eight feet or N I don't believe so probably at least 10 yeah this liberman have you actually been to the site many times okay thank you are we going to work to get that number the height excellent okay uh yet members of the board do you have any other questions for Miss liberman okay professionals do we have any questions for Miss liberman at this time thank you Mr disco nothing okay any members of the public have any questions for the witness none excellent okay Mr Goodman your next witness Tom evening everyone Tommy for maximum fire escapes good evening we're going to swear you in please raise your right hand you swear or affirm to tell the truth please give us your full name spell your last name and your business address Tommy kareah c r r i a business address 141 freisen Avenue New Jersey 071 Mr C you're in the business of inst escapes buildings that you inst fire escapes are usually built 197 explains located is it say to can just uh afterward make sure we get a uh hard copy for the uh Secretary of the board doesn't have to be that big I'm gonna speak over here so every gonna hear me um so let me just back that up a little bit in New Jersey there's what's called a rehabilitation sube specifically related to fire eses for multiple anything that's over UNS fed or residential is a multiple dwelling in newy and as such F3 which is the name of the code allows for a fire escape installation on a pre-existing building okay the basic requirements of F3 are exactly what you see here 18inch wide ladder with 12in facing on the rungs the platform itself is a 4x4 feet uh platform with uh actual grading on the platform itself the windows are 24x 48 double hung that's code for a window eress there's two trusses that are through bols into the wall and sealed on all points that through Bol goes to a plate on the inside tored and tightened and the ladder itself is a counterbalance ladder has two weights and pul as you can see on the top with the frame everything about this fire escape matches the code specifically including the railings that have 4 in so that not only meets F3 but also meets the multiple dwelling and hotel LW which re on AE build I guess because we can't see it this we get closer thank you you know color wise you can whichever color French gray the way that this operates essentially is um when you're on the fire escape and you have left off obviously off the window you simply generally pull the ladder down and the weights go up ladder comes down when you get off the ladder when you're on the ground it literally goes up on top because of the weight of the weights and then they sit on top of a pedestal the lad is approximately 9 ft off the ground and the actual platform itself approximately 13 14t off the ground as well that's of course directly under the window correct one for just space and you know for vehicles and as such and it it just makes sense to have it on the side whether on the left or the right or the front it trly to me it doesn't matter but of course in this case because there is space uh you know we're putting it on the on the right side so essentially say mimic the the front facing and just copy it over to the left or to the right and it's the same design 18 any questions from board measured it several months ago um it was as long as it's under 14t it's and what I mean by is the itself it's any typic correct passenger truck is there any way to have that ladder be up higher yeah we can extend the frame higher and we can also brace back into the wall just to give us go higher so there'll be more clearance from the ground yeah any other questions from the board what distance if a person is exiting through that and they climb down as far as they could how far to the ground so let's say you're in front of the window you just open you got fouret to the or 24 in I just say to the to the ladder pulling that's two feet right so you're pulling it down and so the person on the ladder has to Jump N feet no you're not you're not jumping you're you're using the ladder you're climbing down the ladder well that's what I'm asking when you're at the bottom of the ladder how far to the ground no the ladder any other questions from the board I do I don't know if this is for you or not but um are there any other fire es skapes like this in the center of town in the center of Springfield I'm talking about Springfield I I know there's thousands I was just wondering if you're setting a a precedent in the center screen others that are there you know or not I don't know if you know or not that was any other questions questions any questions um any members of the public have any questions for the witness none okay thank you thank you very much good evening please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm to tell the truth yes I do please State your full name and give us your address system me S and he said I did get a call from and said was time time exact if uh in Reading Mr disco's report U they are asking you to bring the board up to date on measures you with to compliance with the the last s application did perform there were I think items comment Onin we did we push pushed out some tenants out closer to our property we don't know contractor's made yes it is the G that was near Thea REM we started to prep the area out yeah weed it now at time we were here had parking in the back area come up number of n so 14 your goal is to get to and currently withs to parking we really have no you gotten estimates on what it would cost to sprinkle the building have you got did you you did get estimates and what is the dollar amount of being C prohib Clos is this is the space already finished the apartments are already done the interior apartments are they already finished no no this so okay okay was the estimate for both buildings one just the one yes and what I did what I did want to say is as a longtime Springfield resident um and and an architect I know that the infrastructure and water systems on Mars Avenue sewer system and the water in general has been an issue on Avenue in terms of flooding in terms of the infrastructure breaking the mains Etc and we're concerned um as well about tapping into that system tell me what the concerns are the old the flooding that's existing in that area that's the area that always and adding new water and opening the line we're going to get into and as a small property owner he's very concerned and the people that he spoke to already gave him that as a starting point number that he knows what happens get as well as coin the county that's a County Road time involv what I understand your concern about the small business but I can guarantee that the property mostely is going to have sprinkler so they're going to be they're going to be tapping into that same Mars Avenue so that it's more cost effective not that we earlier it was mentioned that you can possibly reconfigure the apartments to I guess you said move like the bedrooms to like the front of the of the building instead of the side yeah in answer to Mr disco's concern to accesss it was suggested by the architect that theed face Marsen obvious at that point truck par access just because when I was looking at the plans look like the fire escape is located kind of like in the kitchen SL like living room area so can't you just reconfigure the apartment so the bedrooms are along that no along that Alleyway instead of that's where they are not according to the plan no the plan has the bedrooms in the front like on the bedrooms are along moris a now they're not but 26 building fire they are already this is more isn't it right so the fire escape is in the living room so kitchen area so can they flip it so that the bedroom so the bedrooms actually have access to the fire escape instead of the fire escape being in the kitchen essentially makes what you're saying makes yeah the odds are the fire will start in the kitchen right yeah that's that's what I'm saying because like and that might make it I guess make it make a little bit more sense because like if there's a fire in the middle of the night then people can escape from their bedrooms instead of having to possibly go through the fire area we're looking at BO A-6 which shows two bedrooms in the [Music] front sorry let me just pull it up on yes I apologize no that's I don't have drive this is what Dr at my house okay we don't we don't this is this yes I apologize I'm looking as well at number six that I think yes and there's two bedrooms in the front and the egress is from the living room correct so what was mentioned was would it make sense to put the egress from the sleeping areas yes there currently is egress meaning egress windows coming from the bedroom so I would consider that and according to code that would be considered a secondary erress could it be a secondary what are they going to jump I think they're assuming that the fire truck would come that's one way a fire truck would come but the secondary erress would be from the living room if for some reason that hallway was well if they would have to in order to get out if there was a fire in the kitchen and they were in the bedroom they would have to wait for the fire department to come to correct to get to get them out whereas that was I do not believe that the code requires a fire from each bedroom I that's not the question I was asking I understand okay would it makes more sense that that egress be positioned where more than likely a person would have to exit as opposed to on the side where more than likely that a fire would possibly occur which would be in the kitchen one is exiting to Mars Avenue via the existing stairs and a secondary exit for the apartment would be the fire escape as a tertiary it would be the windows in right that would be the right that would be an exit of Last Resort but but it's not as it's not a secondary exit correct it's an additional exit so technically there's three ways to exit the apartment or if you count each separate bedom I have a question about 2 floor and there is there's a bedroom there's an apartment in the front on the second floor with the similar situation and there is no fire escape so why is there not a fire escape on 268 if you have to put one in 26 second so are we going to be seeing a a a an application for a fire escape for 26 as that as that has not even been framed out we mayit that the amount of apartment toid Mike that that's my question Mike I was goingon to ask you so again my family home does not the issue here is because mixed it's a new mixed expand and frankly I don't know maybe the res never it's a bu righted build must be sprinklered for a mix building that's the issue the only the fire is what we' heard is that it's a variation ISM to obis but eliminate the need to strength the Fire official feels the variation he can grant because he feels it's it wasn't his recomendation that he feels the VAR that's strictly a building department issue I concern engineer sight and now we're putting on obstruction that's why the under cleance was very important fire department said there Vehicles not their only vehicle they have multiple vehicles of various WID that's so the my question Mike is from the fire department have they put anything in writing to say this would be an alternative to that we would be acceptable with what was it the fire department is not requiring remember this is a building Cod no no I know it's a building code right so we we did fill out a form called the design variation with the building department that was filed building department and and that's pending was there was there a response yeah he approved that the application right and then our understandings we were sent back here for the Aesthetics of the fire escape okay so starting so just so I understand we're not really discussing safety then right that's kind of what you're saying we're discussing the aesthetic look no it's but I think we have to take under consideration for the request like whether or not there's well I don't know cuz he's tellings again you're putting an obstruction in the alley right the alley is for ver that so this goes back to something that popped into my head before and I forgot to ask but when we approve this because we went back and forth on this the alleyway is used for vehicular access or is supposed to be used for vehicular access so yes so Passenger cars are going to be going in and out of the alleyway and the fire escape is it was it was kept that way in the last application for the reason being that while the back of the site right now does provide access it's through a Township property and the easement and all of that had not been worked out correct and it's still not worked out to this day to this day legally the only way into this property is through this Alleyway hence why it was kept open hence why we're here before the board because if it is an obstruction that won't allow passenger vehicles emergency vehicles Etc it's a problem and but I would also like to add that there are proper on Mars Avenue that do not have their own access this would be actually have access some compared to a ex build have just to go back my point about the safety isn't then if they moved it to the front of the building it wouldn't matter if they moved it to the back of the building it doesn't matter because that's how we're debating we're debating can they Happ it on somewhere on the that's really what we're discussing because it sounds like we're getting CAU up no but the building code is sprinkled the building needs to be sprinkled that's the code and you hear that's correct it has to be sprinkler because it's a mixed re we're debating what I'm trying to say is we're debating where the bedroom should go this should go that's not really the issue yeah no that's what I'm trying to get it's been it's been proposed somewhere it's been proposed in the alleyway right and I think what I got from Miss Dodson is she's concerned about safety about it where it's located where they proposed it being a safe location for a fire escape I don't remember who brought upano was telling who said what if that place is not accessible because the fire breaks out in the common area and people are stuck in their bedrooms so then we then we're back to safety then it's a exactly exactly and as you heard from the architect you know the the windows that are currently proposed at the rooms do meet a means of ESS but they probably have to wait for the fire department to help bring a ladder to bring them down so is the safety adequate where the fire escape does the board feel that way because this is in lie of sprinklers this is in lie of sprinklers so it's it all comes back around it is a safety issue it is an aesthetic issue safety meaning both the egress as proposed and also can emergency vehicle access the site properly by the dimensions of where it's located in the alleyway and the fire department doesn't have any responsibility for safy that's where I'm that's where I'm well that's where I'm not understanding well that's why [Music] we question room let's just let go God bless you so so the variation request on which went to fire sub code again that's the the sub code Fire official can grant the varant the variation which is the technical in of the sprinkler based upon what a rehab subcode is as an architect you're trying to build a bring a building more into compliance to code usually percent you do it on Ada it's a a rehab code allow in older building comp May invol so I don't want to belabor the point the Fire official is comfortable I talked to them they've represented that they're comfortable with this as a from a building code perspective so the building code and the fire safety aspect will work itself out that way I'm worried about site access they the fire department hasn't comment I as for the I asked for the under and I got that 11 are you asking about s concern with regards to fire apparatus on the side of the building because why would the Alle but why would they go through the alley May the only ACC they have the front of the building and they have the back of the building how do they get to the corner W be there because right now your fire truck like I'm thinking about it with an ambulance we fit a fire truck will not fit I don't know the width of the fire truck well I mean they're bigger than our ambulances so that's how I'm that's how I'm basing this off of and then if you have that you're going to rip off the roof of their truck with your ladder so I haven't said that they would fit I don't know I'm just asking for the data I got the two foot out from the wall so that was very helpful from and the fire goes straight down the ladder is at 9t above ground going to that will access to the site I don't know if they're 9 tall I think we heard that it could be made at 10 orru your typical parking open a parking iqu provide access discuss that I I I have a question a technical question if let's say a board approves a fire escape the fire Department could still come in and say that they don't want this blocking the alley right or once a board says okay the fire department would like are they independent decisions or if we because we really don't know what the fire department feels about the actual blocking of the alley at this point in time correct I don't know again there's nobody that there's no no fire chief in position just like Jen knows we haven't had an engineering secretary so all those duties nobody's do we don't have a fire chief in position function right now because they retire unfortunately the captain answered the question that I asked couldn't get a review comment letter and answer to your I think where you're inight be going is that will there be scrutiny by the fire department going forward for this fire escape I would think so the building department work so potentially if if the board zoning board said yes but that fire department could go in there and say well fine you guys said yes but we don't want that blocking our whatever reason so the fire department okay I didn't know that out let me let me ask as a representative shouldn't that be submitted to the board shouldn't we see fire yeah you have a David from you have a David from the fire department no no no no no the comment from the fire department I don't have a com Mr disco has indicated that there can't be a formal comment from the fire department because the person charg of giving comments has to be replaced but you just said he approved it Cella had just the permit the billing department called and said that your permit is ready to go it's ready to be released then I got an email from the secretary the department say that the town engineer took the don't have I don't have it yet everything he just they took it okay that's we're it is true that when we enging it found out that the re fire escate wasn't on the original approval when we went plan compliance that's a why why wasn't it there originally that's a different matter but we thought it was important from our side of the building that this has a purview here because it's a site issue site plan is the purview of the board not the building department not the fire department so I'm still confused has the fire department said that this Alleyway can have a fire no no why is there no writing hold on you do not have something from the fire chief saying that because currently there's no fire chief my understanding of what I've heard is that the only person who could formally put something in writing is the Chief Fire Chief and he's and therefore there is nothing no person yet in Springfield who has the formal authority to put anything in writing so you have nothing from the fire department saying you are good to go that's accurate according to Mr nobody's in position to write a letter to this board I'm not saying the fire department can't do their thing in review with the Department I'm not saying that but he doesn't have you don't have a letter right now from any I have an email saying that your signed by who why do we not have that can you tell me who that was signed by I got to check my I've never seen a copy of it I that a vehicle get I may ask you a question is it your understanding the fire department has red Mr sanella's waiver you don't know I would think the building department and fire department working constantly but I don't know that I don't have that can we just regroup so that the the item on the table is are required because of the current building situation we can approve a fire escape in lie of the sprinkler we can approve the Fire escap part of amended site plan application but that also takes in we're not approving it in lie of the sprinkler we're just we're approving the fire escape the as part of an amended a request for amended application that the fire escape would go in the alleyway but does our approval then give him to proceed without a sprinkler yes the building department has said you need sprinkler A variation is fire escape so they're they are presumably going to issue the variations but was not on our original site plan it'sit was generic Catherine I believe feels the same way it's in the alley the dimensions were requested getting some of those di can sorry we put some kind of condition saying that the fire department has to look at all the clearances should and approve it and if we were to approve it that the fire department has to specifically look at the clearances and see if it would be appropriate or Notre I think that answer to your question if I could read into the record the email receive it's from Maggie keer technical assistant Township of Springfield construction says mike disco es he needs to sign off on the pl PR releasing provide of appr sure every project so that's not the fire department right so it's not an approval then so if we were an approval if we were to say the fire escape is okay like it's okay in the set back whatever it is we could put a condition in there that fire department still has to say whether or not it's approved in L up the springler the building department has already done that from a building if I could chair um this board doesn't have the authority to say yes sprinkler no sprinkler that's a fire code issue that's my it is the uh applicant's job if you will to get permission from the fire department for the variation for a fire escape instead of the sprinkler system if they get that then before they can put it in the fire escape they need this board's approval of the uh modified site plan was that was my point aren't we doing this backwards we're approving something without the first part well to from what I'm hearing the applicant is fairly certain that the fire department has or will approve this but that's their risk that help so we're we're asking for site plan Amendment allowing the fire escape subject to the fire depart answering the question that it's an acceptable variation and that the dimensions meet specification that the fire department isable with correct so in addition to what Mr Goodman just said about the being an acceptable variation uh also that the fire department will approve sign off approve Dimensions proposed the fire escap location location um did we determine if the um dimensions of the fire escape um present any civil issues between the two buildings the distance between them does that does that matter how much it projects out protrudes out from the building that there's no issue with the distance between the two with the fire escape there no the set back requirement is zero is okay okay thank you I would also suggest that we put a condition that the ladder made such a way that it could go 10t above the ground like installers in and I don't know if it's appropriate that we would also say that landlord has to provide some kind of Escape Riders is that something that we can put in our purview or that's not really something that okay um where are we y okay any more questions from any additional questions from the board for Mr santell okay any members of the public have any questions no do you have any further Witnesses okay thank you um any further input from our [Music] professionals yeah we we been spent to marking the area noking and Mr second F eliminate are okay members of the board up sorry before we do that I'm going to open it up to the public oh Catherine do you have something than you want to add okay um I'm going to open it up to the public are there any members of the public that wish to speak on this application none I open it up to the board to deliberate CH s we are making a change to the site plan with the approval from the fire department prior to installation I don't think there's anything else for after you explained we're taking out our other concerns reason to object I think that if the uh the building department and the fire department determine that it's a safe condition it's really not up to us to say whether it's it's safe or not they they they they're the experts but I do think that we have the it's appropriate to require that the fire department review the setbacks and the clearances and approve it as part of any kind of condition that we R and also with that having the ladder go extra high I think that's that's unreasonable I'm sorry the ladder is going to go up he he had testified he could make the ladder go up a little bit higher off the ground anyone else um is there anyone who'd like to move I'll move with the conditions I stated and I know Mr Bergen has written them down so I'm GNA leave it to him to [Laughter] say the conditions I have are that um the approval is subject to formal uh written approval by the fire department of the variation to allow a fire escape in lie of a sprinkler system um that the fire department also um must specifically uh approve the dimensions and location of the fire escape um the ladder will be configured to be as far off the ground as possible when at rest meaning at a top when it's not being used um there will be no parking between the buildings and the plans will be changed to take the words least area out of the uh portion where there's a potential billboard those are what I have I have one question with us taking away that parking space does that make an issue for his apartment requirements of parking spaces I believe the parking for the apartments was all designated behind the building I I may have missed it did you mention also the last last or second and last comment in Mike mr's letter about keeping the alleyway free instructions second to last comment on page three uh the entire driveway should be deemed no parking uh All tempor Temporary barriers chains ropes preventing access should be permanently replaced I'd like to add that that was number eight yes we have a motion on the floor with all of the conditions listed is there a second Mr sahada yes Miss doson yes Mr Hawkin yes Mr wxin yes Mr Fen bound no uh M naano yes Vice chair Cunningham yes and chair Cohen no motion passes thank you very much okay before before we adjourn for this evening for the members of the board I received Communications from the planning board chair that they are redoing the master plan for 2024 and they have asked Mr wex and myself to be on the subcommittee for those discussions so if any members of the board have any input that they would like um to speak to us about uh we welcome all feedback and input since you are here every month doing this you may have um some concerns that you want address so great thank you motion to adjourn