##VIDEO ID:srFw1M6YeGQ## e e e e e e e e e stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice we'll start with the approval of the agenda or broll call please member core here member small here Vice chair Gara here chair Chase here we have a quorum all right uh moving on to approval of the agenda are there any changes today Kristen no Madam chair there is no changes no all right um then we'll have a motion to approve the agenda for this November meeting all in favor I I um we'll move on to audience comments um if there's anybody here that would like to speak on an item that is not on the agenda today now would be the time otherwise you will have opportunity to speak during that action item seeing none and knowing we have a light agenda today um we'll move on to the approval of the minutes um did everybody have a chance to review October's minutes I would like to say that I know I had to leave the meeting early but I have watched the recording of the meeting um and so I'm up to speed on what took place um in that second half any edits or requests for changes nope can we get a motion to approve minutes I'll make a motion we approve the board of adjustment meeting minutes for October 30th second roll call please member small yes member core yes Vice chair garsha yes chair Chase yes motion carries great would we like to swear those in that will be speaking today Madam clerk anyone who will be speaking to the board or making a presentation needs to be sworn in please stand raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the information or factual representation that you are about to give or present to the board is truthful yes thank you thanks so we have one action item today it's case number 24061 the fire station on passic Railway this is a continuance from last meeting um I'm not sure Christen and Brandon how we wanted to um handle a representation or a quick overview of where things stood and and what we're looking to accomplish today U Madam chair members of the board uh Kristen keman senior planner um just a continuation um from November's meeting during the course of the hearing we noticed some changes um and some setbacks that uh regarding the secondary and the primary front yard setbacks um that would need to be altered due to the the design changes that was noted at the last hearing so we just wanted to make sure we have the appropriate setback um variance requests on the record and we were able to handle the notice without any we were able to notice post new signs we re notice as required okay um if I can add so the record from your prior hearing this is a continuent so that all of the testimony that you heard at the prior meeting um hearing is still going to be part of this record before you madam chair thank you for disclosing that you did have the opportunity to go ahead and take a look at the um the video um and you do have um the applicant and their representatives present so if you had any questions you would have that opportunity to um to ask them okay great um I also can disclose I have no um expar or um other conf conflict of interest for the case so perhaps the other members if you want to make those disclosures no exper uh yes I did yeah visit the site uh again and I did speak with um two Commissioners okay I drive by it every day so but that's on my way back to my house okay and I'm just going to add that you know the purpose for the disclosure so everyone is aware is really to make sure that the applicant has um a full opportunity to know what you've physically saw or heard regarding their application so there is the opportunity during this hearing for the applicant property owner to ask questions about what you saw when you went to the site or who you talk to so that that is the primary purpose of of doing these disclosures thanks um so did the city have anything that they were looking to present today in addition or should we just move on to hear the update from the applicant as part of the agenda package we did modify slightly the staff findings report um to update the the requested setbacks in briefly but we don't have a new presentation or anything that we okay so if the applicant would like to come forward um and provide us an update on that setback and any additional testimony that you wish to make regarding the need for this variance we do have a presentation uh just an update from the last one um showing believe there was a request to see kind of how the design would impact the streetcape so we provided additional uh exhibits if you can just state your name and my name is Cole MIRS with sweet Sparkman Architects thank you and I'm Dustin Ballard with kimley horn civil engineering firm um given the uh previous slides uh were already on the record do you wish for me to review them again for or move on move on to your update unless anybody else has specifics that they want to review let's start here at the setbacks one just because that was one of the changes just to know there are changes on this one um Kristen are we able to swap the visual can we have the PowerPoint presentation please perfect thank you thank you so two things that we've added into this one we've added the actual um I would still call it conceptual we're not in the full design phase by any means we're still in the conceptual but you'll see the floor plan on this on this print out before it was just the outline of the building but then on the front or the northeast corner where the stairs are and the second story that overhung the stairs you'll see the update um basically in that top right corner or the northeast corner sorry it can it either goes full screen or can you just clarify so the pink is existing or line Blue Line okay was trying to read the legend okay required oh building setback okay so the pink reflects what would be required corre and then anything outside the lines of the pink are what okay thank you I just needed to re yep that's fine adjust my eyes to the the blue is what the building is set back as in either first or second story whichever is greater okay um and so you'll see of course A lot of it you know the blue outlines that the at the very top and there's that piece at the bottom if you to compare existing to to the proposed the blue pretty much mimics exactly what the existing building is doing on the left uh so the most of the changes are happening on the north um the north side of the site okay and it's the west side that has the uh a residential home that is correct okay and then it's the South Side that BS up with the property that storage parking property okay thank you y so again uh the imperious impervious surface ratio um we were we updated the northeast corner there um we had to make some slight adjustments to try to find uh some of the area that was increased there to try to keep it underneath our 8.85% essentially um we were able to move some of the driveways shrink them up a little bit we add of a so these driveways were shrunk by like six in instead of having a wider buffer we could bring them in a little bit so that gave us some um and then we added a little bit of landscaping up here that we could try to still meet the the what we originally applied or we're applying for okay um again not much has changed on this on this slide uh except for that northeast corner where the blue outline moved out a little bit um we were kind of trying to show this is it's a little convoluted just because there's a lot happening with a couple of different Landscaping codes um but essentially we're trying to show where the Landscaping would be on site um and then also the blue and this isn't part of code but the blue is where on this that we would provide landscaping or some Greenery that's on the actual streetcape itself we addressed the building elevations before these have not changed from the last uh hearing but we wanted to show within the context of the site the general massing of the building once again this is still preliminary so the architecture may change to some degree but the uh um overall you know we're we're going to be constrained within the bounds of what this determination is with regard to the uh setbacks and variances requested so here's the existing fire station and here is what's proposed on the same lot so this is looking north um on the south end of the building looking straight up pass it a grill looking North from another point of view you can see Land and Sea Market uh to the north of 20th a fire station to the South so this will be looking of course West down 20 20th Street 20th Street 20th yeah Avenue yes does anybody have any questions do you have one for the back view not one for the back view with the resident we do not have one for the resident have you heard from the resident we're here that's us okay we love to see that by the way and you will have an opportunity to speak in a little bit so there will be an opportunity for you to address the board than can we have question questions yeah um do you know how much this is going to cost uh not at this time we have not gone through a schematic design uh pricing exercise yet that would be concluded at the end of this current phase well the reason I'm asking that is because um I think last time one of you said that you got a grant of a couple million dollars or something like that does that sound familiar uh yes I can speak Adam pter acting assistant city manager also Deputy fire chief um we do have a state appropriations of 2 million dollar that we received about a year ago so for for this uh dedicated this project as far as the other funding uh obviously things have changed in the last couple months with uh the the effects of the hurricane so um honestly that's opened up the possibility of other funding sources that we're researching right now so I can't commit to exactly what the funding sources are going to be because I'm trying to uh ensure that uh we're being good stewards of taxpayer money and and uh you know basically going down every Avenue we can to to secure funding for this building without it coming out of the general you'll secure the funding before you start building oh yes yes yeah I I say that because of the situation with the baseball team no I understand the longer you wait the more expensive it gets and I'd hate to see this thing get half built and then say well we still have any more money yeah no definitely um in fact we we've set an internal deadline of of I believe about a week just to uh evaluate all the different funding sources that we have so that's something that uh will be done and over with before we uh put a shovel on the ground for sure and I appreciate the question and it's good information for the city to or for the community to know but in relation to kind of our decision today I don't think the cost structure I know the other the only other question I have about it is the design is again on the roof and this is because we've just been through two hurricanes so I'm a little sensitive about that you're having the trellis up there for Green Space on the roof is that a good idea if we have high winds any of the design that we do will be subject to current building code standards uh both the hurricane wind load standards um any applicable FEMA standards as well as um the fact that this is an essential facility means that it's held to a certain degree of higher standards than a standard building with a lower um for lack of better term um level of uh risk so um anything that gets put on this building whether it be the trellis or otherwise will will be durable and be able to withstand hurricane forces any further questions for the applicant did um would the concerns addressed do you feel based off the conditions that we asked them to come back from from last meeting I mean I have some questions but not I think for the applicant as much at least not yet okay to talk to Brandon about some of the variances if you're going to speak next but thank you okay do you want me to just ask question oh good go ahead or did you have I there wasn't any um formal presentation from the city so you know it actually struck me um last night during uh I think some of the conversations around ordinance changes and variances and um whatnot as people might be looking at lifting their homes and why we have Varian or why we have specific setbacks MH so I do want to ask you because I found it interesting last night specifically that was talked about how homes cannot should not be considered to um have less than uh three- foot setback right um off their sight line for Fire Reasons m so I look at this and think about a one and a half foot setback and think of all the places that we should have adhering to a fire code safety variance it would be our own fire station so I just wanted to take a minute to ask you if you can talk about the required setbacks why they're in place so that if we approve this it's not or we don't approve it it's for really smart reasons because I don't believe we just have setbacks thrown out here for no good reason that's my hope so I'd love for you to spend a couple minutes on why these setbacks that are required are in place to begin with and how we should look at them against what's being asked so this is a unique area because it's a Confluence of multiple zoning to the north you have the residential office retail which is a little bit lower intensity the subject sites Institute tional and to the South is the commercial zoning so there are places in St P Beach the Town Center is one of them 8th Avenue is another where buildings have a zero foot set back on the side so commercial buildings that's usually not as much of a consideration there are firewall requirements there's treatment requirements and so on um with residences both for massing purposes and also for fire separation purposes there's often a greater setback but there are areas of the city where especially multif family can be right up against another multif family Building without any necessary you know they'll be a few inches off because of the property line but um you know they'll typically be right up against one another um that's my understanding it's usually for Access purposes um you know especially with typical Suburban zoning you want to leave space between residences so that there could be access along the sides without needing to step onto a neighboring property um you don't always have that in the commercial zoning where you can have ements and so on the property to the South is commercial Zone um if it were to develop it would have setbacks from the north property line that would exceed anything that I know to be a fire separation requirement of course they might come forward with a variance and that would need to be considered at that time but the Western setback um with that Alleyway there I'm not aware of any issue that would come into play with that at least from a fire fire standpoint why do we have a front yard setback requirement of 25 ft if we're okay with 1.5 potentially today it's it is a significant variance um I think I commented on the staff report even for the institutional zoning If This Were to be in the pass Grill overlay the setback is lesser um on on that regard I think it really has more to do with the massing of the building um you know the the visual impact of the building relative to the setback um and you know of course the north side of the building is currently a 1.5 they've modified it to be 1.5 from 1.2 but that's that's typically the the purose okay and then in terms of the secondary front yard the passag gr way going from 21 where it's required 15 now it's proposed to go down to two so from 21 to two so in terms of the concerns on the pass Railway side secondary front so that's secondary front and and it's only the that one element at the corner that entrance way with the balcony above that's at that two the rest of the building is more at the 8ot Mark that is more in line I I felt at least with what the overlay would provide for you would typically be looking at a 10ft setep back to five on that side with that being the longer side um based on a typical commercial or institutional zoning granted this property is not in the overlay it's outside of it which is why it has such stringent setbacks but that relative to the the majority of the bulk of the building I I felt at least was more appropriate given the design Integrity of the building and the recommendation from the historic board um of course this is in passor Grill it's just not in the zoning so those setbacks aren't available okay why do we have a 15 foot required setback then for this area I'd say it's the same for the front yard um it's it's really just about setting buildings that are at a certain massing um this is a conventional it's actually a county standard for the institutional zoning there's no special overlay in this area so a lot of it comes down from what the county and what the city used to have as standards for um what an appropriate size of a building would be we allow a certain floor area ratio and it allows a certain setback based on that okay all right now let's go to the I don't know I think the interesting one which we didn't see the picture of which is like the west facing side so that one's going to go from existing almost 21t to one foot and that's where it's backing into a residential area yes right cor uh the required is 10 they have almost you know they have 20.8 now going to one that one probably seems like the hardest one that would be the most painful if I lived right next door to it even though I would assume I would get really good service yes we do have a model here also show this in three dimensions um unfortunately we don't have the fold out T we had last time so we're going to have a um guess the best way to look at this so this is 20th Avenue pass way and here is the alleyway I mean currently all of the properties that are on that basically a zero foot set back anyway so they're not complying with modern standards for that from the standpoint of the building um the the only part that's really projecting into that uh that setback requirement is the stair Tower and a portion of the second FL which is um really you know providing some coverage from the uh parking below all of that has the programmatic requirements of the building and because of the nature of that Alleyway that's there there's obviously no um encagement on access because the alleyway is intact and and usable as it is today would it be helpful if I brought this closer nope nope I see it thank thank you additional questions for Brandon or did you feel were your answers sufficient for now anybody else have questions for Brandon no then um if there are these the folks you said you the neighbors that are so if there's anybody here that would like to speak on um behalf or an opposition to this case now would be the time please come forward and share your name and address and any comments that you'd like to provide hi my name is Marita contas I live on on 104 20th Avenue has sworn it oh great thank you um we did a swearing in and I believe you um arrived a little late to the meeting if it would be okay we'll have the clerk swear you in prior to providing testimony yes do you swear or affirm that the information or factual representation that you are about to give to the board is truthful yes thank you thank you um I live on on 20th Avenue I'm the second house from the fire station um I'm concerned about the visual impact is going to be uh a big uh a huge impact on the on the street my house was the first one that was lifted and we were prohibited to go beyond the setback now after the storms all the neighbors are speaking about lifting their own homes and I'm afraid that this is going to set present for everybody to go beyond the setback and I feel that very unfair because we couldn't do that in the first place so that's my main concern I think it's going to be massive it's going to be very big and it's going to create a big impact on the street um also this is a personal um um uh reason that it would violate my privacy uh we lifted our house uh the my top floor right now is my lounge area I'm facing directly to the um to the to the station at this point so the Privacy that I have now is going to be terminated by this big uh uh structure so those are my two big concerns if you want to take uh take them absolutely we appreciate you sharing thank thank you so much thanks sorry yes do you swear or affirm that the information or factual representation that you were about to give to the board is truthful I do thank you I'm Mickey Parsons her neighbor 102 20th Avenue uh the the closest neighbor to the fire and rescue folks um we support the rebuild and we have always had great relationships with everybody there um it's a little terrifying because we are absolutely after these two hurricanes looking to lift the house it's historic we want to preserve it um even as it is if you come sit on an our glass in front porch you're often terrified by what comes into your into you know your yard and uh even the trucks we have now which are small by some comparisons I believe um barely make it around the corner and so pushing that down even further I'm sure scientifically it's going to work but um I'm expecting that it won't be quite you know what we're hearing day so we're concerned about the value of our land to be quite honest as well I mean this could we will be overshadowed from three angles at that point and he's going to really want to buy that in the Sunshine State so but you said he were supportive of it well we want they should we should I'm supportive of them having a new facility they need right I think it doesn't need to contain all the you know the rule bending that we're talking about today is that fair enough thank you yeah thanks is there anyone else that would like to speak on behalf for an opposition to the case hearing none will close the public yes please if you can just um share your name and address for the record I'm Todd sweet do you swear or affirm that the information or factual representation that you you're about to give to the board is truthful it is thank you and I'm I'm the architect also and I didn't know if we had a chance to just respond to some of the concerns of the community please go ahead and you know there was I think they're valid concerns but I think there's some responses to them for instance um it was a question about the setback and currently the setback on the north is 1.5 and we're keeping it at 1.5 so we're not going any beyond what is currently there and in terms of the bulk in the M we understand that this is a bigger building and we did describe why why there is a need for more a bigger building and we're within the ISR what was is originally on that site and I think we're not proposing anything in terms of the size of the building that's not permissible so I just want to make that clear for the board thank you with the program requirements of this building and the lot as it is we simply put cannot put a building the same size on that lot that was there before and really the only option is to build up One Way Or Another We're Not exceeding any of the height requirements of the building we're with the exception of the tower for training purposes the remainder of the building is within the massing standards in terms of height limitations um as per the the code requirements and so yes The Bu the building is encroaching no more than it on at least a few of the sides no more than it is existing and we are just trying to make sure that the fire station has the appropriate spaces they need to perform the necessary Duty uh duties that they have and so with that said um part of that is is raising the building in order for them to be able to provide the necessary um responses be able to come back to the fire station in an appropriate amount of time since since we cannot build on grade so I just wanted Tok you provide some color with that if I could I just wanted to a comment on the um the closeness of the building from a fire suppression standpoint I think that's a valid concern but what I what I would point out is I'd make the argument that the current building is actually more unsafe to the neighbors right now as it stands because it doesn't meet the the modern code for uh fire suppression it doesn't have a fire alarm in it uh right now we're using the same smoke detectors that you have in your house which is not uh to the standard of a current fire station so the new building itself will have a suppression system in it uh so God forbid a fire were to occur one it'll have an alarm that will notify us immediately where it doesn't today and it'll also have a sprinkler system that will suppress the fire in in in quick time so I'd make the strong argument that uh even though that the staircase is a little bit closer to the resident as opposed to the current building it's going to be a much uh much safer structure for the for the neighborhood based on those uh requirements so and I'm happy to answer any additional questions if you have all right we'll now close the public hearing and open up for board discussion adj for our facilitating First Responders is good for our community I think member gar totally um understand like your line items of the DraStic of these different setbacks um I think Brandon's comment on like this is what a regular Building height and stature we would want for the community in terms of the design makes perfect sense and this just isn't a regular building right this is our fire station and so um I think it's really exciting that that crew is going to get what they really need and deserve and is um a safer solution for both them um and the residents I completely respect the Neighbors being concerned about the height and um privacy the Privacy um but I think the reality is we're going to see lots of buildings continue to be raised and that's going to be kind of more of the norm in in the community moving forward um those are my thoughts yeah I I I would agree raising is going to be good for everything however I think raising within zoning requirements is also going to be critical because we don't want to just be encroaching on everyone and dark marking everyone's homes either so I I am sensitive to the fact that building I guess what what is disappointing is there is not any alternatives other than one being presented so there's there isn't and I I understood that maybe there were approaches that could have helped to address and minimize some of the need for all of these substantial variances um never did we see any of those Alternatives and I know it's been under the guise that we need this size and this shape in order to achieve the modernization requirements and the expectations of what it requires for I guess our fire station to be able to support the community um I don't know how this operates as a standalone unit relative to the other one of those things I think we're kind of not getting maybe that full testimony of the how these two feed off of each other because we do have two now right to support this community and wanting to make sure that that this is while everybody's going to build up how does it actually help to fit into that specific district and area um yeah I I still look at this and just question whether or not there is other ways that some of this could be accomplished that could be a little less impactful on the neighboring homes I think the biggest limitation is the lot right like they they have to build a certain structure and the lot is just is what it is so I think an alternative could be is there another location but that's not on the table right there's not there can't be another location like that I mean you need it on the southide so it's a lot less intrusive being where it's at as OPP bu to not across Arena and beside the storage facility there I'm happy to address some of that if just let me know thank you I have nothing more to say on that it's just I think they did their research I think the city's done their due diligence and would you like to make a motion I make a motion that we approve case 24061 as proposed can um can you all restate what the actual and maybe staff can help um what the variances that you're um potentially approving are because we did have that little change we didn't improve approve anything last time though so it's everything we're looking at holistically today correct that is correct but I don't know that um we stated it at this hearing what all the different variances are so along with the motion the motion to approve a variance for and then we go through the list and Madam chair if I may um part of the um staff findings report staff did recommend three conditions if we could address those as well absolutely or any other conditions that the board may want to place should you support it were you talking about the roof um yes that was one that was one just looking to where do you have Happ to know Krist and what page those three conditions are laid out on so we can just discuss each one um I'm happy to I don't know in your agenda packet where they are I see it okay um so the green roof cool roof or additional Frontage structure it seems like the one concern with that that we discussed today was around safety in terms of being you know high winds and um I was comfortable with the response there that they're not going to be able to build anything that is up to you know code um are we in agreement that that would be a condition we would want to include and support as a part of moving this forward I think that up to the City attorney as far as how that needs to be put into verbage the I think we I just wanted to members small run through each condition as a board to make sure um that we were in agreement that they were all valid which page are you uh it's page 20 or so it says 20 of 71 on the bottom and then 12 of 12 on the okay so I mean I think the lack of landscaping is you know again function of the lot so anything we can do to help improve that aspect I think it would be pretty cool visual for the building as well so um I would support condition one any discussion or thoughts otherwise the neighbors have any objections to the Arbor on the roof everyone not that was shared okay um unless demon stated to be technically unviable the applicant shall pursue sustainable sites credit through a lead silver certification at the time of building permitting I know in the last meeting um they absolutely indicated their Desir is to build a sustainable as building as possible so there was no concern from the applicant's perspective on that condition either um and the third shall be represented to the board at the time of site planning to the historic probation board um to ensure that any alterations still meet the design um which is you know a no-brainer in my opinion was it represented to the historic board it it will be at the time of site planning good to ensure that because this is just preliminary right they've been very clear it's not final design and we'll want to make sure that it stays in character you know with the neighborhood okay so I think that checks the Box on reviewing all the conditions um would it be possible Kristen or Brandon for you just to restate kind of the current variance application with the additional setback for the um Second Story sure balcony and it is a five-part variance um and it is to reduce the front building setback along 20 Avenue to 1.5 ft where 25 ft is required the secondary front building setback along passag girl way to 2 ft where 15 ft is required the western side building set back to 1T where 10 ft is required and the southern rear building set back to5 ft where 15 ft is required to permit the construction of a new uh twostory fire station to permit the site impervious uh surface coverage to be no greater than 85% of the lot area where no greater than 80% is permitted permit the minimum uh propertywide vegetated coverage to be 14% where 16% minimum is required reduce the northern required Northern Frontage Landscaping buffer to 0er feet along a portion where 5T is required and the required Southern Landscaping buffer adjacent to the driveway to do to be 2 and 1/2 ft along the portion where 6 ft is required and uh permit the rooftop chimney training element to be located 15 ft above the maximum height of the the roof or 45 ft above required design flood elevation where 10 ft and 40 ft respectively is the maximum allowable uh height thank you so now that we've officially um addressed all aspects of the variance if um memb small if you'd like to restate your motion I I'm have to say I'm a as far as exactly the the variances the requested variances as identified by staff with the conditions that appear in the staff report if that is your motion that is my motion okay can you state that for the record M so I move that we approve case 24061 with the understanding that the the noted variances noted variances would be to that staff recommended with the conditions with the conditions correct thank you we have a motion you have a second I'll second roll call please Vice chair gsha no member small yes member core yes chair Chase yes motion carries 3 to one thank you everybody for the hard work that's got into this case and I appreciate the neighbors bringing their input to the conversation as well right that was the only action item for today um my agenda up here are there any items for discussion Kristen or Nancy no no I didn't know if you wanted to talk about procedure I'm sorry the procedures well yes and you know this is my second meeting with you and generally um sitting with advisory boards oftentimes there are some formal procedure like decorum rules that um that are applied with the understanding that in certain circumstances they could be waved um and I I've asked uh if this board has one and the answer is no you don't have one in play um generally these meetings are conducted pursuant to Robert's Rules of Order but Robert's Rules of Order will sometimes conflict with Florida law so it's kind of a guide um as long long as you are o comfortable uh without having rules that's fine if you'd like to develop just some kind of a a very simple set of procedural rules it's it's your discretion I know we had had um like procedures um Workshop that we've been pushed off you know for some time so I think I would certainly be open to any best practices that you might recommend you know Nancy or Kristen based off observation that we could Implement and maybe we could that I don't know do we have any cases for next month so we don't currently have any um applications that met the completeness deadline for the 18th we could perhaps do it then you could push it off I don't know how long it would take um we've kind of slowed down on the variances for the moment uh a lot of other boards are are ramped up um so staff has been attending to those as well um but that would be at your discretion yeah and and I just want to emphasize too that these proceedings before you they're quasi judicial so they're not intended to be super super formalistic um because often times it's just members of the public that are coming requesting um you know a variance although you do have some complicated um projects as well so whatever you're comfortable with is fine I think the workshop would help just because the legal speak of putting that motion in yeah to to make sure that what's presented properly that's that's maybe where I need some clarification yeah I I love the idea if you've have some experience withs that you want to suggest these are you know super simple three rules whatever that I've that we've used and it helps just some guidelines and you know the fundamental is making sure that um the property owner has their due process rights intact they have that opportunity to present to you um they are um you know you're affording the the public an opportunity as well but the whole notion of fairness you know did you allow somebody 20 minutes to speak and then somebody only five you know that kind of thing but we also have to build in discretion because all these cases are not alike so you want to maybe have uh maybe a majority vote to wave the rules and to proceed in a particular manner those are the things I've commonly seen yeah I think that would be great and if everybody still has I don't if would using the time in December be um y would that work for for you Nancy or is that yeah we can we can make it work okay we we try to figure things out and I mean if not I think January would be fine I don't anticipate we're going to be busy for a few months so um no rush and you well the other thing that's actually come up if I may is um you know the familiarity um that this board has had and again I'm I'm still new with you all um as far as our Sunshine Law our public records and you know your obligations under the state ethics code um so if you are going to have a workshop and talk about your procedural rules it might be a good opportunity to roll those in as well um in other communities what we have done is have a uh one big presentation and then invite all the advisory boards to that um but we could do it just with your board if that's your your desire yeah I'm glad you brought that up we did have have a big like community board presentation but we have a brand new board for the most part and so I think that would be really beneficial for particularly our new board members to so then I would ask maybe January that would give us the month of December to pull together that uh that information um and we would look at per perhaps um adopting some procedural rules very simplistic um and then hitting those three areas just the basics and of course if there's ever questions please reach out to me or um one of our train that we all took though I think Jenny that you provided was I don't remember when that was recorded but I assume whether you attended the all board one you're talking about which I did not attend an inperson one but there was like hour and a half three hours right that's done annually so it needs to be done again the City attorney was doing that with the clerk every year for all January would be perfect timing then anyway because it would kind of check that box of the 2025 review and update it would and generally though the elected officials they do have a 4-Hour training requirement um but the advisory boards typically do not have the 4our um you could have I mean I will talk with the city manager and see what her thoughts are as well as our um commission um you know you could have the 4-Hour hearing and everybody could come to that or maybe you guys attend an hour of it whatever do you remember I remember being here but I think it was maybe an hour it wasn't long it was about an hour and there was two sessions so if it one day wasn't to try to yeah you would just respond it was an hour and a half and we do have it on video that we do give it to the new board members to watch and they let us know they watched it so that we can keep a record of that okay so I think it might be beneficial just brainstorm if there's certain things like if there's motions wording um criteria is another thing to make sure you know as part of our Land Development code it has to meet certain criteria right so are are we meeting that those kind of questions brainstorm you can email them to me you can email them to both of us just so we make sure we we hit on those um topics topics that you're looking for the other setting precedence you hear so many people well I'm afraid we're going to set precedence but that's probably one of the things in the work I mean every case stands on its own absolutely every case does stand on its own and I did take a couple notes about that I mean you have criteria but that's that's basically your law your local law but the facts are different for each case and so your job is to apply those um the law the local codes to those facts and the facts are different correct okay so we'll all take responsibility to email any specific questions or um topics between now and um you know before the Christmas holiday yeah that's fine any other items for discussion guys otherwise we have a a motion to adjourn I'll make a motion we adjourn all in favor I I so are we here not