e e e e e e e e e St Pete Beach today is Tuesday June 4th 2024 it is 1 p.m. stand for the Pledge of Allegiance please pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all city clerk if you please do a roll call vice mayor lenen here commissioner Marriott here commissioner Philz here commissioner Riki here member panic here member Welch member Stevens chair rothenberger mayor patrilla here we have a COR thank you all right uh city clerk did you want to start with the audience comments reminder so um there are no audience comments to today during the meeting however I have submitted to you all the comment cards that we received either by submission on the U online website through the the form there and via email we received uh no other comments uh or emails after the one o00 deadline yesterday thank you and uh those can be accessed I can I can forward them I think it's just point number two on the oh the um past materials that were non staff member provided that means by um be a board member or by a member of the public those are all accessible on the city's just foia public records portal and then you have the minutes um from all of those meetings and if you would like to review the agenda materials that does include staff presentations those are available on the city's website thank you city clerk okay so this uh this meeting came about uh because we've been working on the city beach ordinances now for Jennifer was it two years two and a half years longer we're close to three since 2022 okay we've been working on it for quite a while and um we thought we were getting close to a final draft last uh September October didn't quite make it then there were some uh changes at the city commission and on the beach through a SHP and so here we are um I one of the things that we talked about when we scheduled this meeting was um that we were not going to go back and rehash 2 and 1/2 years of material that we've that's been gone over meticulously and we asked uh the City commissioners and the beach stewardship members uh to please go back if you're new and you were not a participant in those previous meetings to go back and review all that information so that we're all up to speed and on the same page and so I just want to confirm that everyone here feels like they're up to speed on the same page so that we can proceed okay great assistant City attorney I think you want to give us a brief summary of where at and then what we're going to be looking at today yes yes thank you mayor Matthew McConnell for the record so um that was a great introduction on where we've started um where we're here I I think there are four main items for discussion today um and then we can talk about how we want to deal with the proposed sea turtle lighting um hopefully Reserve about 10 minutes at the end of the meeting because I I don't think that conversation will be very long I have some suggestions there um but what we kind of got through at this point is you know were're discussing Cabanas and the rentals of those uh we were discussing setbacks for the beach front properties and setbacks from the mean high water line and setbacks from adjacent Property Owners when it comes to the service area in general um we were discussing commercial permits and then we were discussing um whether the resorts should be required and what that number is when it comes to removing chairs on a daily basis or not um so those are kind of of the Four Points that I need direction on staff needs Direction on in order to get this back to be a second reading but first reading all over again I I'll default to the clerk there um because mayor you kind of alluded to it in the commission meeting there's a business impact statement that needs to be addressed and that's going to be I would anticipate between readings probably a month and a half to two months in order for staff to prepare that um so yeah that that's kind of my summary okay thank you all right let's start with the first one so if we want to and I included the clean version as well which is probably easier for you all to to read um again just going back to the summary the reason why there's so many strikethroughs and underlines is because this really came about with commercial Enterprises kind of taking over the public beach there was a lot of discussion and complaints and the commission decided that hey it's time to update our beach ordinance um so what we did was we took out regulations of beaches and other sections of the Land Development code and code of ordinances and decided to put them in one chapter so this also helps the sheriff's office in enforcing our beach manager iako and City staff and code enforcement when it comes to enforcement um so right now I believe we're on 95 21 but if we want to we can look at language specifically or we can just talk General generally about how we want to deal with cabana Services one of the conversations that we had last time and I wanted to see if you had made any progress on it was uh as I believe it was you Mr MCCA mentioned that our current Beach ordinance doesn't actually hold any teeth doesn't have any teeth because there are no prescribed consequences for violating the beach ordinance other than a letter of reprimand which again has no consequence and so you had proposed uh something along the lines of um all of our other ordinances so that you know first you know first violation it's a letter second violation is a fine third violation is a revation of privileges whether it's a permit for having Cabanas whether it's a permit for alcohol or whatever else so have you made any progress on that or look further into that so I think the way you describe that is how I Envision it um I haven't looked into it any further just because I see treating the violations of this code similar to how we treat every violation of every code um so the city depending on the violation short-term rentals is non-compliant so there is no courtesy notice for those violations but for any other violation it will start with a courtesy notice like hey you know you're in violation of this you have 10 days to come into compliance if you don't we will schedule it for a hearing and we will impose fines that way if you don't pay it we record it against your property and I think that's severe enough enough um I can't speak on how they were enforcing this before I do know that from prior city managers the resorts at least I was told were not the issue so to speak it's more of I'm sure you all have seen it picnics being set up yoga classes things of that nature um but what I will say is when we develop the application itself which we can always bring back to the beach stewardship or the city commission before final adoption which would be an administrative application we can include language in there about First Strike second strike revocation for a year and we can really kind of add to that application so people take it seriously and understand that if you do this without a permit similar to our lobbyist will give you a warning the first time if we catch you again you can't do it for six months if we catch I you know eventually to the point where I don't know if you want to go as far as you can operate in our city um but it's different because our btrs are for Brick and Mortar establishments and you know your random yoga teacher doesn't have a business establishment in the city but she's still operating a commercial Enterprise on our property so it's going to be separate in apart from the BTR so I so the com so the questions on the Cabanas today is is what well we we really got stuck on 9522 I did missp um when it comes to the transi and lodging facilities and Cabana Services cuz uh I would say six or seven years ago definitely in the time that I've been at the city there was uh the commission banned alcohol on the beaches completely and the only area that can serve alcohol on the beach that's permitted is these Cabana services so there was discussion related to you know if residents want to if residents want to grab a beer how does that work um do we do wristbands do we do cups um and that's kind of based on my review of of where we left off it was 9522 yeah Michael uh yes thanks Council I have a question does that it obviously includes the hotels Does it include the concessionaires uh on the beach who just have Cabanas and are not connected to a hotel or a restaurant of any kind so as it's drafted right now mayor if I may it's only transient lodging facilities so I would not if you're operating a chair in Beach rental you should not be serving alcohol I think maybe what um Mr W just referring to is up and Beach and then at passor Grill those concession stands but technically those concession stands are not on the beach and they do have signs that say no alcohol Beyond this point which is then the beach thank you for that distinction yes those are all those are both controlled by leases too so if we do need to and there are property so if we need to make some tweaks um we can always do that as well yes sir I think there's a number of other areas that I would want to talk about but not right now since we're on Cabanas but with regard to Cabanas I think right away uh there may be some confusion about the word Cabana because our definition in the ordinance for Cabana is um you know chairs where that are not used for for uh for bar service but in fact when you really dig down uh the city actually requires these Cabana permits specifically where you are selling alcohol and we call them Cabana zones um and what we learned for instance at a recent meeting of a community meeting was that one of the hotels when asked why are your chairs going so far to the property line the the hotel expressed well those aren't our Cabana Zone chairs those are just our chairs for our guests so uh I I think there's a lot of confusion that when we say that we think we're making rules for the Cabanas we may not be making rules for the chairs or may not be communicating that we intend to make rules for the chairs so I think we need to be very careful and really think about what we even intend among ourselves first do we intend that the chairs don't go within a certain number of feet of the property line uh and then if chairs are being bundled with a room um uh that means or bundled with your Resort fee that means that there is someone already assigned to that chair it's quote rented so we again have to think about what we're really saying because as we put in the ordinance oh it has to be rented and or you know before it's brought out or any of these kind of things we really have to understand before we can expect an attorney to draft the language we really have to understand what we mean I don't want to even confuse you with more details but that's that's the thought process here this a lot of discussion that needs to happen about a cabana versus a chair and the setback for each um that I I'd be happy to discuss but I don't want to hold the floor down well I think that's part of the same discussion is because we talked about setbacks from the high from the waterline and also from the property uh and then we also talked about sprawling properties having dedicated access points in between if you remember that conversation right so if you have a property that's you know mile long of property on the beach that there would be certain access points in the middle that would separate the chairs from the sand and create a walk kind of a path between the Cabanas chairs or whatever we want to call them and and just to remind people of the history one stage people had believed on the commission or the beach stewardship that everyone was required to bring their chairs in at night and so found that they didn't need to start prescribing other rules such as that Mayor Johnson had Point wanted to have 10 ft between every row not column but every row or you know they came up with some but it was all it was all put aside based on the belief that there was a rule already to to to make everybody just wait till they needed a chair we then later discovered that wasn't the case and so and we've also got a lot of feedback from the hotel years that it's a hardship to bring all their chairs in every night um and expect you know a customer to have to wait with their family and kids to have those chairs brought out so again grappling with that question you know what do we want do we want the chairs brought in every night you know and these Cabanas by the way are two chairs in one so when someone says they have 650 Cabanas they mean they have seating for 1300 people plus chairs Cabanas aren't chairs so it's big numbers here Matthew do you see 9522 as discussing just the alcohol service area well it discusses um other things because it it talks about setbacks it's it's really regulations for the transient lodging facilities the only section that regulates that it also bans plastic straws um talks about other things so to to Mr kerman's point I I do actually think it it may be a good idea to distinguish and maybe just call it an alcohol service area and take out the word Cabana because Cabana in the definition does include chairs and and everything else um yeah I think it would be good to make that distinction much much more distinct and clear about the you know because we may want to have different rules and and I and I think different rules currently exist for an alcohol service area versus just an area that has chairs and I I don't think I don't think if you know if we're rewriting it I don't think we want to start off with it being confusing to anybody no and I actually think that in this section we can also talk about Cabanas so I Envision this section being the regulations specific to transient lodging facilities which can include alcohol service areas Cabanas setbacks plastic straws everything and and so then because this section talks just about transient lodging facilities it wouldn't apply to if there was a a condo on the beach that has beach in front of them and and if they wanted to contract with somebody to rent chairs it wouldn't apply to them because they're not a transient l facility it depends on the condo I will say because there's some condos that allow for short-term rentals but right but if it was a condo that didn't but if it was a condo that doesn't allow for short-term rentals correct and they wanted to have somebody that rented chairs to their residents or anybody else on their Beach this section would not apply to them correct okay the way it's drafted right now it would not apply okay about alcohol but but 954 which is a whole section for chair chair uh tables and umbrellas has a section that says any operation from a franchise to set up chairs tables umbrellas or commanders on upon the sand beach requires a permit for the city so that would pertain I think and I was going to ask if that pertained for instance to the hotels who have a caban Zone and then also are renting chairs but I'm not sure that they also do have a separate uh permit for the chair Zone where then they're saying hey we can get closer to the 75 ft of the residential Zone um with their chair it's a good it's a good question I I don't I didn't Envision a hotel because they do a lot through their BTR which would include the chairs and the Cabanas I I don't think we need to over permit I mean I think I think our biggest concern was people doing things that are not permitted and not asked for um so I for the resorts I do believe on the BTR their chairs cuz I know there's there are a few that have chair rentals and Cabanas that's all kind of permitted either through the state or jointly together at one time um but 954 would pertain to your hypothetical Comm nonent correct and in that it gets interesting because some of these condos own down to the mean high water line but just like you regulate single family homes and and other things we're not saying that you can't do it we just want to be aware of of it so that we know that you're not violating our code or doing things without permission and then 954 would also cover the public beach areas up on M paser gril and correct the County Park area yeah okay and I have heard a lot of comments about to that point distinguishing public and private beach and um it's really up to you I mean that's a whole different conversation if you want to do it it's it's adding a definition there'd probably be some separate regulations that would come that would come before you um but it is something that at some point we should discuss at a maybe a later meeting it is if we want to make that distinction um with the understanding that I'm not going to sit here and make that distinction with the opinion of title I'm not going to sit here and look at Deeds I'm I'm not going to do any of that I'm simply just going to draft distinguish uh distinguishing language for public and private beach um and we'd have to set up a pro a policy in place administratively for proof of own ship yes Mr Stevens just on that point proof of ownership or permission of the owner of the property for example your condo is that you have a yoga teacher that goes does a yoga class that person would have to get a permit but they would have to represent that they have permission of the property owner to run that business correct on private property correct correct that would be one just like uh special events or or even like Doc permits sometimes you have to get a sign off on your neighbor it would be a similar process where in my opinion the permit would be coming from the property owner right hi I own this property I'd like to have a cabana service on my property so at that point you already know it's consented because it's being applied for by the owner I was just like the yoga example the yoga example correct Park here walk through this path I'm going to do a yoga class it's on private property someone trips and falls then they have a permit but they didn't get permission and the property that could be part of our administrative just make sure that ownership of the property approves of any Commercial Business going on I agree Mr kman yeah I I think it's very important though to recognize um the public beats question to the extent um that we don't get in trouble with any customer use discussions um it was very helpful that the city clerk had had provided something that I forgot that I sent in in uh a couple years ago to the city commission um which was about the tax maps and how the tax maps showed that the properties really only tax the properties specifically to the Marshland um and not the actual Sandy Beach which I felt at the time was consistent with the idea that the sandy beach was a public area then in looking further at the information that we were all sent and actually had my slide where I had a link and I don't can't believe I forgot about it and the and the link actually was to the 2019 meeting where the city commission at the time rescinded the customary use ordinance and during that meeting they told the public not to worry that the beach is public and the beach will always be public and they at the time settle you know they did it as they were settling the the Silver Sands lawsuit um there was some confusion as to what had to be done for that Silver Sands lawsuit that we don't have to go into but the issue is that the public didn't know the whole story and um the more important thing is they were assured that the beach was public um I get particularly scared when I see a revised comprehensive plan that says now we have to make sure we preserve private property as an equal footing it's not even just a regular thing it's a whole chapter so it's not just a footnote it's a chapter so that in a way could be telling people later down the road that they can come at us and say hey you got to reserve our private property we've got Beach ownership what are you doing City so I think we have to be really thoughtful of that as we consider these ordinances but and and and for that reason I have looked at a number of the deeds and one of the Deeds that I saw for instance in their very application for gavana service says that this deed you know has an exclusion due to the right of the public to use the the beach um and I'm not saying we shouldn't give the gabana privilege but we need to recognize that the public has the right to use the beach which means if that vendor then says I need the city to start coordinating with this which I saw in a letter where they want to start enforcing boundaries and asking the police then to finish the job of keeping people off of their quote property yet the deed says the public has the right to use the beach I think that we as a city may be creating a situation where we're we're we're blocking any future customary use Privileges and we're blocking our residents and and the public from using the beach so I think that we have to think about that so if if I may mayor the beach is public the question becomes how much of the beach because no matter where you are you can walk down the wet sand regardless of the property line regardless of where you are on the beach you can walk the entire four M four miles and no one can kick you off that is public beach some areas have 100 feet some areas have 10 ft So to that point the beach is public the question then becomes how much of the beach behind certain property owners are public I think the con if you watch the video from uh August 29th or October 29th I think you'll see the context because it was about resending our customer use ordinance which obviously was about more than the the state uh area which already by state law we have the high water obviously this discussion wasn't just what the state already provides this was the customer use ordinance we were sending so it had to be about more yeah that we were assuring people about um but you know we could we could I'm just saying we need to be cognizant of this issue as we because I think it's very important that we do make sure the hotels can do these things and I you know rent the chairs and preserve the Quorum but we just need to make sure that there's you know no confusion as to uh that we're that we're giving up the fact that this is a public beach yeah Matthew can I ask you a question for um and and to everybody's point I mean we're going to get stuck again in definitions here because we we did this before right so back to the purpose of the ordinance and I have old notes from two years ago right and then and and I think you have an intention right we're going to we're here to protect and preserve the front line of our Barrier Island to protect the flora and fauna and to promote safety and enjoyment to all right if that's I'm not saying this is what we wrote this is just some of the notes that I had right and to me beach can be mean many things but if I see zones there's like different zones within our beach but everything West um and you can correct me and I don't know what the zoning is I know some zonings call it preservation right anything west of the CCL line is a preservation zone right so and we're trying to preserve what we call the beach which is in this preservation Zone um but within this Zone you have the wet Beach you know uh which is west of the the mean high water line then you have some dry sand which could be publicly owned it could be privately owned then you have some Dunes some vegetation so there's a bunch of zones within this preservation Zone which we're lumping all under Beach and then we're inserting the word public beach private beach wet Beach the same with the Cabanas and the definition Cabanas there's no bar but yet we call it Cabanas and we've already done all of this do we need to just tighten up our definition so that the words match everything throughout the document so it doesn't get confused or use something like preservation or I don't know call it call something and then Define the zones and whether it's privately or publicly owned the purposes that we're all here to preserve the area it it's the front line of the Barrier Island this this is why we're doing this is it's our it's the front line for the whole city right so we're trying to protect it and for the enjoyment of all whether it's private or public um just like we have Zoning for building right you have a house but you have to follow rules well you might own this preservation zone property but you got to follow these rules I think we can I I've seen Beach ordinances go as far as developing zones on the beach with a map yeah so you have Zone one zone two which may not be a bad idea for our beach because most of the resorts are right next to each other zone three zone four and then you could distinguish the regulations appropriately based on what zone you fit in um the only problem is you think of like the Silver Sands which is kind of there which is a condo you know there there are some areas where the Zone may not be applicable to everyone in it but this ordinance can be whatever you all want it to be so just to Circle back I have we're going to distinguish alcohol service area from Cabana service area which I think is a great suggestion because they also have to get uh permitting from the Department of Business and Professional Regulation and they have site maps and plans that need to go along with it um how do we feel about some of the setbacks here and like 75 ft these some of these are carried on over from what we currently have um are those for the Wet Zone or for the chairs those would be for the chairs because because the Wet Zone does not the way it's written right now you can't serve alcohol at these Cabanas so it'd be for the chairs so it' be for the Cabana area not the alcohol service area so the hotel that stated that they that they permit allow they're allowed to put shair well help me because you know a as a resident I'll I'll bring my chair and put it anywhere on the beach a guest might bring a chair and put it anywhere on the beach but a hotel that puts the chair out shouldn't put it within 75 ft I'm just 75 ft of the wet sand which means the first row is 75 ft from the wet sand okay you're referring to the wet sand not the not correct wet sand mean high water mark we'll put all of them in there with like we do with development orders as well so it's setback from the wet sand can't be any closer so people who come to the beach should only have towels in that area or just no this is specific to transient lodging this is this is just for the transient correct so this is just talking about their the way that they do business um and the think 75 ft from the wet sand is is probably a good but also looked at 75 ft from the property line correct on correct right it's a budding and existent the way we have it now is straight from I believe what's in our code currently it says existing residential use okay so it wouldn't be from CI Silver Sands correct we did that specifically for Silver Sands which I'm not going to bore you with the history there but obviously that's where our comp plan some of the language came from they're set at 75 right now from residential um I would say most Resort the thing is you have to start thinking about it this way now that we're approaching this again there's also been development orders and cups that have been approved that give access that isn't there right via easements and things that we're going to have to make sure we're not regulating against right they have to kind of be in Conformity with each other so it may make sense to have a buffer between non-residential as well when it comes to property lines well I I think it I think what we're talking about here is at least in my mind was 75 fet between property lines right because if if you had two hotels next to each other even if they're separate Brands right you don't want to wall of Cabanas right that was part of the reason we had a 75 foot buffer from the property line was so that we have you know some empty space in between okay but going going back to the Cabana area how do we designate that I think one of the conversations we had last time was that it could not extend any further than 75 ft from the CCL line so that or from the from the property line so that it can't go all the way to the water all the way 75 ft from the water but rather just a a small strip from the back of the property that would be close to the wherever the existing bar is that's on premise anyway so you're saying a setback from the cccl cord um I I'm not I'm not making I'm not proposing I'm saying like what what's how do we designate it that Cabana area that or the alcohol serving area right I what I remember from the last commission meetings last workshops was that whether it's from the back of the physical property or the property line going 75 or 100 feet towards the water not to exceed you know so if the beach is super narrow and we've got a 75t setback from the wet sand it couldn't exceed that point but if there's 300 yards of sand then it might be 75 or 100 ft from the back of the property so just a narrow strip closest to the property where there might be a bar already where they're serving and so they can have easy access back and forth I understand the question because we're talking about designating a drinking area right correct the alcohol service area so we should have a way of establishing the boundaries of where that area is okay yes sir um to your point if you go to some of the existing Resorts that have that there are posts sure that Mark that there's got to be a set a rule some maybe it's a Jennifer question do you know how that I think where you're going how was that calculated or where the posts go to to designate the wet or the alcohol area is there a formula there's not a formula they apply for a permit and then it goes with our technical Review Committee that reviews it and looks to match anything that's existing in there and then um once they give us the layout and it's you know 50 ft by 75 ft um they Mark the boundaries and then we just ensure that they stay within the boundaries that they're permitted to be in so the boundary now is approved by every yeah every city Administration correct and the state Mr Mayor I think you're saying we should form State there should be a formula on how that should be correct calculated yeah mean that's part of the discussion that we're having tonight I mean this afternoon is you know where do we have the designated alcohol area because we're talking about having a wet area and then non-alcohol area and then the beach area yes Mr kersman using the old slide from when they use postcard any example they they show 75 ft to the residential because of the special exception and then they had 25 ft to a regular property line and then it showed 50 of the high water line but that was where we were changing it to 75 ft but then there was also a slide that uh Jennifer had mcmah had had shown us where she had shown what in Santa Clara and other city had done and provided that as an example and I think at the time it offered to maybe model some sort of formula but at the time the decision was not to do that because we were going to do the carry out the chairs each time and that's where maybe it still might be worthwhile to come up with that general formula to to say you know so that everyone doesn't feel that they're going to TRC and it's a negotiation but that there's actually a standard that's been set yeah and I think that's that's part of what we're that's what we're saying looking to do is to make sure that we set a standard across all the beaches so that we all know again I mean we've all been here and they keep telling us they want a nice family friendly environment so if it's nice familyfriendly environment we shouldn't be having alcohol everywhere on the beach especially when I as a resident can't go and have a drink on my own yeah I hear you I don't know if a calculation to me makes sense I just think it's going to be how do you calculate it you know are you doing square footage and then a percentage can be the alcohol service area can we just do it just like with the other one it's going to be 75 ft from or up to 75 ft from we we can but in your example you said that you know some people have smaller beaches so then then all of a sudden you're creating a situation where maybe they can only put one row of chairs well they wouldn't be able to put more than one row of chairs anyway because they'll have the setback from the wet sand so my what I was saying is up to not to exceed the setback from the wet sand right so for some of them it might be 100% of their area for some of them it might be 10% of their area but just have it designated so that it's simple so we don't have to do math or do any weird calculations where one person calculates it one way another calculates a different way but simply say hey from from this line backwards we can have alcohol in this area for the full width right minus the setbacks on the left and right okay and you're saying that area would be 75 ft for example okay I see I see what you mean but no closer than so if it's a shallow Beach are you you you give them a setback then it could be no closer to 75 ft from the wet s yeah so you have to get you're given a back and a forward so number take for example from from the back wall of the closest building right yeah 75 ft that's your alcohol serving area if to the point where it's 75 ft from the wet sand is only 65 ft then you only get 65 ft got it if you've got 300 ft then you've got 75 ft of serving area and 225 ft of no serving area you can use that for Cabanas that actually the more we talk about it seems pretty it would be not to exceed yeah so then we just have to establish which line are we using so is there one line that is pretty consistent where we're not going to have a lot of conversations about well it's I'm measuring it from here you measuring it from there I think the first line that comes to line is uh is the cccl although I will tell you I've seen the cccl in the middle of someone's backyard before um but obviously we don't have to worry about them having serving alcohol I think would have to look the map Florida Florida does a good job of putting the map online and maybe we just want to kind of see if there's any problem Childs that we need to address um yeah like Dunes if half of their 75 ft is sand dunes now they got 35 ft or whatever right so well I mean what what we can do is we can have this as a starting point correct and look and see and again we're not dealing with 500 properties we're dealing with 15 right and it wouldn't be difficult to say okay if we said 75 fet here's who's impacted if we said 100 feet this is the impact area right but I think that might be a good starting point and if the CCL line is not the right line then maybe we look at something else but I think the only one you're probably thinking of Silver Sands as well where their line is actually in the half the pool yeah that one and then we dealt with a Code Enforcement issue where um ironically the cccl was like 10 feet into their setback in their backyard landord first I've ever seen it um I think that's a great starting place if there's a consensus I think that makes sense can um when we're looking at that can we also make sure that there aren't properties where the 75t side setback and a 75t side setback you know I'm not sure what the narrowest transient lodging property is on the beach but if there's one that's you know 165 ft wide 75t setback on each side would leave them you know a very narrow area so I think I think we want to be mindful of that think that's a great point also when we're looking at that and I think my vision was to think that even though it's a setback you could use and I've seen this drafted in in our code you can use the setback to accommodate easements that you've right so like if you're already if for example you've already granted us a 20 15 foot Public Access easement all the way down to the beach that doesn't need to be outside of the setback that can be within the setback so you're not doing 90 feet right you can kind of but yeah I can look at that as well so so is the vision that in that 75 ft the public might be sitting or what would be happening in that 75t I think that's the alcohol serving area correct sorry that would be the alcohol we're talking about designating uh the alcohol the alcohol I'm saying in the 75 fet where it's not the out you have you have a setback of 75 ft from the property line so in that 75 ft what's happening there put chair no chairs on the no chair so what is there we're not here to make a determination on customary use yeah well we're talking about no I know what you're asking and we're not here to answer that now you've been at the meetings where several of them have told you that feel free to bring your chairs and umbrellas and set them up better that than in front we have it all camera so yes sir to commissioner Ron's Point um why you're doing that it might be hard because the world has changed on the pictures from space but um where does the vegetation of the Dune system and in that because you could get some bad behavior of doing this where then they plow down the the dunes so they can get more chairs into the alcohol serving area so we just need to be um mindful of the space and then Doom protection that's there and I know we are all getting the emails about seaw walls and I'll say the the Dune system is the seaw wall of the West and the more that we can maintain those it's going to keep water out when the storm comes so um we should keep that in mind when we're doing this well I mean the dunes are protected so if you were to go out in the middle of the night and bulldoze them you're going to have different issues than the city correct yeah well sure see slowly over time encroaching right it doesn't have to be all at once yeah like at photo or but it could be riding their ATV moving their chairs in and out over right flattening it well there's a lot of properties that don't have Dunes behind them and that would certainly discourage them from ever wanting to be involved in any kind of a dune restoration program if they were going to lose their whole area of doing business you know through the cup process many major redevelopments they have to do do right but for but for smaller you know for hotels that don't have dunes and aren't and aren't doing anything there's no yeah there there would certain be no encouragement for them to do anything with Dunes if they're losing business area yeah Mr kersman yeah so if I got this right that 75 ft also would not have the hotel's chairs it would have any hotel's chairs for non-alcohol or alcohol are you talking about the 75 ft from the water or from the CCL either one from the water from the water there would be no activity at all right so 75 ft from the water 75 ft from the north south east west property lines there wouldn't be any activity at all right then we're talking separately about a designated alcohol serving area for transient lodging only right and so the idea that we're talking about is having from the CCL line a certain distance whether it's 75 ft or 100 ft towards the water right that would be the alcohol serving area and you would also have your Cabanas or chairs or whatever else you want to call them in that area as well and then beyond that area if you have additional property line to the 75 ft from the water you could then have chairs that you do not serve alcohol at how about North South well they would be your you know not all the properties are north south but I understand what you mean so on the left and right side you still have your 75 foot setback where there's no commercial activity right and that would include chairs and alcohol and everything else okay so then thank you thank you for the clarification the other thing that was part of the discussion I think it was the last meeting July 28th 2023 page 35 in the discussion there was a decision that wristbands were no longer appropriate and also that there should be some sort of common signage that would delineate these zones um and so the ordinance doesn't have that change yet in the red lining I think the reason why I think the reason why is because we actually the conversation was opposite of what you just said I think what nobody wanted because of the customary use situation public versus private is have anything that is roped off or delineated in any any other way right and so whether we I don't remember if we stuck with the wristbands or not the wristbands but there certainly needs to be a way to establish whether you're but again if you're in the alcohol serving area you in that area if you're outside of that it is the property's responsibility to make sure that you do not cross that area yeah I think the idea was that that the wristbands were being often associated with you shouldn't be here if you don't have a wristband which is why we weren't comfortable with the wristband concept especially because it wasn't for alcohol because even the kids were getting these wristbands right but then the Border was useful from the standpoint of shouldn't be a sign on the outside saying don't enter but that it should be a sign on the inside saying don't leave with your drink yeah and I mean I think that's that's a different if you look at a lot of the you know again up and Beach good example passer Grill undertoe you know a lot of the beach bars areas they have a sign that says no alcohol Beyond this point I think the other issue with the wristbands is it might give somebody the impression oh I have a wristband I'm allowed to have alcohol I can be anywhere rather than yes in this designated area so I I think I get yes I think your point is valid and I think that's what most of the other properties are doing is beyond this point do not but there's nothing facing inward that says do not enter right that's so that's it sounds like what you want it's similar to what s of the other facilities yeah well what we what we want to avoid is having any kind of barriers right anything that might be in the future misconstrued as we're now waving customary yep I do think that the 75 I mean I've been kind of like letting it sink in the 75 behind the property from CCL I I can tell you two hotels that we have all dealt with already um saratan and and um trade wins their the renourishment of their Dunes is greater than 100 already just the dunes that we're asking them to replenish in with so that means that that their Zone would have to be in the dunes so do we add something to say I'm almost wanting to put something to encourage to do the doomes that if you were to um because we want that barrier right that's what we're trying to accomplish so if people were if hotels businesses whoever were to add this Doom at least 75 do we give them 20 on the opposite side of the Dune for their alcohol Zone because they're they're going we're going to encourage them to keep the Dune not trample the Dune like um John um Mr Stevens was saying you know or slowly eat away it because they're outside of that setback um so not to discourage them um well sorry I already know there's a lot of hotels who have Dunes behind their property that's greater than 75 fet I think that's why we we kicked it back to that's that's why we kicked it back to the staff and said hey we're starting with 75 or 100 feet whatever is look at those 1520 properties and and come back with a recommendation what the actual number that makes sense that's why or where or where we're measuring from you know it might just be that you measure from the back of the dunes or or I mean you know I I I would say maybe you say it's 75 ft from the back of the CCL unless you have Dunes in which case we'll give you 75 feet from the back of the dunes and that's exactly why I brought and if you and if you and if you and if you add your dunes or or heck make it make it 100 ft if you if you have Dunes so that encourage them to then you're dealing again with there's a lot of with the line that can move and so now you're making it difficult again to establish where the line is right so the last thing we want is to have Dunes as boundaries which ask Europe they use Rivers as boundaries and it doesn't work right so um again if we leave it to the staff to come back and say look here's the recommendation it might be 150 fet right yeah could be two I mean I don't know what the recommendation is going to be but certainly we want to take into account okay currently their Dunes are here and we should make sure they have at least 50 to 75 ft beyond the dunes and so if that means they need 150 as a standard line that's what it is again we're still let's have yeah yeah because I'm looking at the cccl right now I mean it runs through a portion of the rum fish you know so it's different but yeah yeah I don't know what that bright line rule but I I think what you're doing is setting parameters from chairs alcohol property right right that's that's the vision I I'm I'm thinking that we're goal is to avoid a wall of beach chairs and to avoid beach chairs all the way up to the water right yeah got it Mr kersman something that might be useful as a tangible thing that the individual me change is the tax map tax map actually does show the property line to the marget line so to the Dune to the beach side of the Dune line so that's sort of you know they're paying taxes to the Dune line and you're saying to the CCL you're saying wait 70 and if the CCL is the CCL is never going to be p i don't believe the CCL is pass the dun line uh or pass the tax line so you know if you're just saying 75 or or just go ahead 75 ft from The Dun line unless there is a cc uh a CCL issue but we can we can work on some language I I personally I've seen too many discrepancies on the Property Appraiser's website I mean respectfully they're not attorneys they're not title I mean they just take information and and create Maps so I'm a little reluctant to trust everything you see on that website um respectfully I'm not a surveyor I mean if we're going to do this the right way we're going to need to get professionals involved um so that could come forward at a at a future commission meeting I've got a question the cccl line does change over time right correct it has changed it has changed which is why is there frequency I don't know the answer to that okay Jennifer do you happen to know what the um currently with the um with the hotels that have permits for chairs on the beach versus the alcohol service area do you know what what commonly any of them have for side setbacks or or if or if there haven't been any side setbacks worked into the equation as you guys have been setting out those areas to my knowledge the only side setback is to a a budding residential okay and that really only applies I believe to PCI PCI okay there's only one restriction and it's 75 ft to residential and then Cabana area should not be closer than 50 feet to the wet sand is what's currently in the code yep okay so currently the hotels have chairs up to the property can have chairs up to the property line side to side yeah okay and when we go through this and like like you mentioned looking at setbacks we're going to look at everything just to make sure that the numbers are appropriate so I have a question on [Music] 9522 sorry 9521 B2 so we're talking about uh is that so is there what is the current time that they can serve alcohol in the designated alcohol serving area let me um it that language is directly it's currently in our code now so it is what's the time no later than 10 p.m. okay because this one says special special events or special permits correct okay um it's in 6-5 now in our code so that's one of the strikethroughs but it um it's for btim language that's currently there open to suggestions if we want to change that that's not for Cabana service that's for a special event and at a line with our noise ordinance yeah that's what so if like a concert was happening on the beach or the buck bash or whatever sure they can't go past 10 p.m. I'm just thinking in terms of you know in the in the winter 10 p.m. is I know many hours past dark right um that's a good point though should it be sunset well whether it's sunset or you know a lot of other areas it's you know 5:00 p.m. 6 p.m. something coinciding with with that area because they're not serving food on the beach anyway so it's not like people are sitting there having dinner and then you know hoping to have a drink but rather well so hotels will have to get a special event to serve alcohol on the beach and so if they're having a reception well we're not talking about special events um that's what 2521 is or 9521 is that you're talking about yeah but that's what I'm asking is I'm I'm asking about whether this addresses the daily activities and so in 22 so I want to talk about the daily activities right so what what are we what are the drinking hours so that currently in F says sunrise to sunset right in 9522 F correct but again read this with the assumption that we're going to make a distinction between Cabana and alcohol service area right so F could say the alcohol service area I was right now it's sunrise to sunset because that's technically how or how long our beach and parks are open till okay um yes Mr kement yeah the other piece of this when trying to figure out the formula and I've been trying to work on this through a forer request that I started in the beginning of April is it's not just the um Cabanas or the chairs that take up space on the beach and this is coming from the complaint that people come out and there's no place to sit but there's Ziplines that move volleyball slides and just been trying to find out you know what permits need to be obtained to get that and I just thought it by finding out what permits have been obtained I figure out what the rules were because I couldn't quite tell what the rules were I know I asked one time and was told that only the DP D had to approve something like a zip line on the beach not the city in any way um so I've just been trying to find out what are the approvals because do we want in the ordinance again I'm not trying to get beyond the Cabana discussion but it's about like I think the the discussion is really about what do you want to have on the beach right no and that's that's certainly a valid question I mean as as we're currently discussing we talking about all commercial activities having being 75 ft from you know the water in the property lines you know if we if we can get past this then maybe we can also look at you know whether we because right now am I correct in saying that those items are administratively approved rather than depends I believe the water slide was a cup back in 2004 or five if we're talking about what I think we're talking about um I know anything that you do past the cccl whether we're involved or not we usually are has to also be approved by the state period so um the problem with the state and I I mean this respectfully when it comes to enforcing the dunes when it comes to the I mean these things are rubber stamps they usually rely on us to enforce even Dune preservation which I'm shocked by because you should see some of the things that I see in Code Enforcement so I wouldn't really rely on the state too much I would I would focus on your own regulations okay so what you're saying is we should maybe have a second layer of protection where we have maybe something similar that M that mirrors the state guidelines for example for whatever activities on the beach but then that allows us to enforce it as well yeah I would think our own because no matter what you do even if you're going to the county for a dock or the state forment they're always going to say has a local government approved this so we get get the first spt at the Apple if you will so if our staff has regulations to look at and saying okay you meet you've met these parameters you're good to go um then the state just kind of rubber stamps it at that point so I don't know if I would even adopt what the state does because every city is different our beach is different but I think regulations the clearer we could be the better for enforcement purposes but see you just raised an interesting issue like how does that play into their alcohol service area I guess we'll find out right cuz they have permitted water sports back there and activities that um I guess we'll just have to work through okay have we um completed 20 21 thanks I had one very quick question on 9519 before we roll it's probably already covered in the turtle section but um it talks about residents closing blinds and that type of thing is there something that we're going to read later on it talks about residents turning off like backyard spotlights and all that kind of stuff yeah I try to reserve uh even if it's five minutes at the end of this to talk about the model sea turtle um all right we can talk about it now real quick I just think nope let's wait okay thank you so what what we never I'm I'm sorry I'm sorry sir we are not taking public comments we were very specific about that and I don't two different seasons there's summer and winter with two different sets of regulations thank you um all right into the turtle ordinance yeah so just anyone that would like to discuss this further outside feel free to reach out to me my information's online happy to talk to you um so 95 one thing we have not addressed which would be in this section too is chairs so before we move on there's no language in here right now because we I mean most of you were there the conversations were kind of back and forth um percentages amounts of rows we've all gotten public comment from the resorts and and how they feel um I don't know if you want to wait to see how much area we're talking about you know I think what makes the most sense is to allow staff to go and or surveyor whatever it takes to to kind of see okay what are we talking about when we have a 75 foot surface area 75 fet how much area are are do you now have for chairs probably before you start regulating the amount of chairs if you only have 75 ft you may only have enough room for three rows anyways um just a suggestion chairs or alcohol service area this is just chairs which includes Cabanas you know like the Cabana is outside um there were talks about making them remove them nightly right now the only time they have to move them pursuant to the code is I believe there's a a sea turtle nest um they have to there's parameters there so that was one of lot of sense to to wait until we have more information about about with the setbacks we're talking about how much like you say how much area is being covered with chairs because at this point to try to make any determination you know it seems like putting the cart before the horse a little bit yeah I went to each property after last July or August's meeting and went to each hotel and looked at the areas looked at each of the beaches um I think we can work if we're if I can go back out and look at the setbacks from that I know what our goal is and I think we're pretty we're pretty good um and with the exception of one maybe two that have a pretty skinny um Beach um I think we can come back and have a good solution where we're not a wall of chairs and and there and a lot of them are already picking up the chairs and stacking them already so um since we've been discussing this for long they've switched out what they have there are a few that still haven't um but well I think those are two separate conversations one one is you know how much versus the other one is do they come in at night yes and we can certainly have that conversation yep um I mean I know I've spoken with the the company that does the chairs at passag Grill and front of the plaza uh at the County Park and I think nine other cities on the barrier islands and their feedback is they already do it with one employee per location every single day in both seasons um really without any without any challenges and I think if we're talking about you know I think the other part of the conversation was do they put them out when they you know when they rent them out you know or do they just put them all out every morning and put them all back out every night um and I think there's a conversation to be had there maybe you know they can put up up to half in the morning and then the rest as they're sold if if they do sell them um again from the businesses that run the beach operations I think well I understood was that they put out a certain number but not all of them because there's no point in putting I mean they might do so during spring break or in a you know on the weekends you know February to July 4th you know but for the rest of the year they don't put out everything doesn't make sense for them you're right it's a two-part conversation and um I agree with uh commissioner Marriott that as far as the uh the space and that type of thing I'd kind of like to let the city staff do their homework and it's all part and partial with the other issue we're were talking about the chairs I'm more interested in listen to everybody on that one before I my opinion I think you know as far as the the chairs being brought in or out there's there's a lot of variables per business and I I think there are some businesses that you know that are that are already bringing the chairs in because the equipment they have and their business model that works for them I think there are some hotels that have you know a different kind of structure where that's more difficult um and I think we need to be a little bit careful about lots of unintended consequences of bigger heavier equipment moving back and forth in the middle of the day when the beach is more populated and um you know create creating a scenario that we weren't necessarily looking for with you know some some sort of vehicle having to move chairs back and forth through a crowded Beach versus if they put more of them out early in the day depending on you know their business model and what what kind of equipment that they have and so I'm not sure that there's a super simple one siiz fits-all answer to that question and I think it also is going to depend a little bit on what those what the surface area that's covered with chairs looks like um versus the empty Beach and it may be that that when we see what those numbers are um that you go well in most of these cases we're not concerned if these chairs are there all the time or it maybe that you look at it and go I don't know that's a lot more area than I thought it was going to be maybe we feel like we need to move the chairs so I I still think that's a question that will be be better addressed once we know what the what the areir what the amount of space and the number of chairs that we're talking about looks like what problem are we trying to solve with the chair issue I guess I'm at a loss on this what what's the threat what are we worried about if if I I may M real quick um um so just think about it this way we have to do a business impact estimate statement so when you're regulating this not that you should be you know it shouldn't be swaying your mind one way or another but you know if you start to impact businesses too much that statement will be greater than if you don't right so just I'll leave it at that we we have to think about how much are we going to impact businesses on the beach or not because the greater that impact can I already tell you I've gotten calls from lawyers expect this to be in court and then we're going to have no regulations for the next two years which I'm trying to kind of meet in the middle here because I think there's a solution but when it comes to the vendor mayor that you mentioned and all respect to him all of the complaints we were getting were from him at the Dolphin Village because he was putting out the chairs and he was taking up all of the public beach allowing no one to sit so we actually controlled that by taking over the lease from the county adding him and then controlling it via our lease agreement so I can appreciate what he's been doing now and how he's accommodating but I got a plethora of complaints about the public going out there and all the chairs being there and him and them having nowhere to sit so that was a problem that we addressed because we control it well in the neighboring residential condo what was happening is public was going to a public beach there was nowhere to go so then they headed south and they were now on private property in front of condos so those condos had a problem with the amount of Cabanas that were on the public beach so it was like we just crowding over and it's seeping into then private property so that's rich kind of where it's kind of twofold turtles as Turtle Joe stated and um it was the crowding and being able to access our public beaches so it's kind of two different things we are in control over up them and C a grill and um the county beach now um with our our vendor who is here sitting in the back and we have a good working relationship and he also does it for a couple other um private and hotels on the beach as well so um he flipped his model based on this conversation two years ago thank you and I will say he's done a great job commissioner Fitz yeah I was going to just before Jennifer spoke I was going to say I think with the problem trying to solve um one is the sea turtles and correct me if I'm wrong but with like false crawls and that at night um and then two is beach chairs sitting out that aren't being used especially for consecutive days um because what purpose does that serve so is kman yeah speak I mean the ordinance is written right now it's so sort of hard to tell because things move so everything looks added but it does add the thing that it should be on wall for for any person placing or causing not to be placed in a chair bench table or umbrella upon the public and privately owned beaches to allow such to remain upon the beach between sunset and sunrise so the draft does now have that removal item in it which is why we've got so many objections but you know the spirit of that is that and we know that there's been hotels that have a large investment in big heavy you know chairs or Cabanas but obviously there's going to be a recycle time you know just just like other things uh but you know we used to have a sign up here that said Sunset capital I don't know where it went um and when you think about it do you really want at Sunset you know tractors or electric tractors dragging everything off the beach as people are taking their pictures which is what's going to happen so you just have to Vision what's happening um I know we want to try to protect the turtles or make sure that they don't lay you know don't come up and lay their eggs where you don't want them to or we want to make sure they lay them everywhere I guess um as no matter how dense the the area is um I still wonder if there's any scientific study that says that maybe you want to just put up a barricade in certain really high density areas to let them know no don't don't don't L your EGS here this is the this is the busiest part of the beach swim swim 50 feet that way and lay them there then they lay them in the water no they don't I've been told they swim out and then they'll they do they do try other spots um I've been told different so all right well anyway like I said maybe the science has but but uh well again those those are things that you can address through the ordinances because right now ordinances do specify what kind of vehicles you can and cannot have on the beach what size and when and where and you know just like with our sign ordinance that hopefully we'll get to it some point you know you could have something simple that says look you've got three years to get into compliance right for example right so hey here's yes you've got these heavy chairs they they they don't last forever you know you've got three years in which I'm saying for example it's the fact that it might take an extra line or an extra thought to make something happen shouldn't you know deter us from doing what is necessary to make sure that we do protect the turtles the environment that we you know combat the overcrowding Nets on our beaches so that we don't have as the commissioner said a wall of Cabanas and chairs you know you know I I spend a lot of time you know traveling and we've been all over the world and I can tell you the nicest beaches in the world they all do this and we keep saying that we're the best beach in in the United States maybe in the world and yet we don't do any we don't take any steps to protect that we keep talking about well gosh darn it it might be hard well you know what it might be hard to get a new sign for your small business on Golf Boulevard but it's not stopping us from doing what is necessary right now we want to be cognizant of that then we're going to take steps necessary to make sure that all the business come into compliance but also don't want to have a conversation okay well this business gets this and this one gets this just like we talked about the alcohol area this is your designated area this is easy for everyone to figure out and understand this is where it is no everybody puts it in a night or nobody does right we're not going to make a rules for one business and another right we've already seen from from businesses that operate this type of Enterprise that it can easily be done with one employee and so I don't really see where the challenges are for businesses that have as they tell us 500 employees right and and we're talking about an half an hour in the morning half an hour in the evening so we're talking about what an expenditure of a hundred bucks for your business impact study right I mean as we're looking at these things we're not we're not talking about a huge financial impact on for us no as we're looking at the financial impact studies what happens if we if we push this ordinance forward right well again just because it's just because there may be challenges doesn't it shouldn't preclude us from doing what is right and what is right is protecting the environment and protecting our beaches okay I I and I'm glad you mentioned the the the electric vehicle also because I I I was hoping we're not talking about bicycles on the beach today John you actually wrote a very good letter about electric bicycles when I read the minutes and I do hope we get to electric vehicles in general though probably not today in Janu it said January of 26 uh you know everything has to be electric and obviously you want to phase that in you don't expect everybody all new vehicles in one year and and I I do hope you do go back and read your letter though about electric bikes because I I know a lot of people came to me about electric electric bikes also um and we should I think talk about that at some point as we go down these ordinances not necessarily today right Mr McConnell yes sir yeah how the the impact statement where does that fit in with what we're trying to do to finalize the ordinance I think we to the mayor's point you have to focus and feel confident with the regulations that you're proposing um and in interest of everyone in the city in East City public wealth and and benefit of of every citizen and business owner and then just let staff determine how to I mean this is I don't even know where to start I'll be honest with you um we haven't had to do one like this there's going to be businesses especially that we're going to have to figure out numbers on um but I to the mayor's point I wouldn't let it impact what you're doing currently right because you guys all know me if if we're doing something we shouldn't I'll tell you so but you know don't let it hinder the conversation all right we have 4 sorry 2:15 yeah I think personally we've gotten through the the things I wanted to I think uh you're going to have to give staff time I don't know who who the point person is going to be here I may actually add something to a future commission meeting about I think we have a surveyor but I if we're going to do this I just feel legally we should do it the right way and get experts involved uh if needed to kind of delineate where this area is going to be um the next thing on here is a model C to se Turtle ordinance I didn't want to spend too much time on it because I'm I have a suggestion to make on on how to handle this so in our beach ordinance we carried over very very limited language on sea turtle protection um I personally think that there's already enough going on in this beach ordinance I I think that if we address sea turtles in their own importance because they are important that we should do it separately um I don't see I don't think that ordinance should hold up this and vice versa so my suggestion would be to allow the beach stewardship to work through the model Beach ordinance um when it comes to sea turtle lighting I believe there's something additional with shark fishing too which we can add to a to an agenda but I haven't reviewed this model ordinance I I don't know the legality or sufficiency of it but I just in an interest of time think that's a perfect project if they're willing um to allow the beach stewardship to just kind of work work on that separately from what we're doing now yeah I think that's a great suggestion when is uh the next meeting for the beach stewardship Aug we can schedule us yeah yes sir question could we move that up could we have a special meeting to do it that would definitely be behind that for sure mayy um city clerk would you mind setting up um some of your polls yeah thank you so with uh that being said we have 14 minutes I've got a couple comments yeah yeah please um I'm sorry mayor I don't know who you want to commissioner yeah so um just something resident uh brought up to me uh about adding tiki torches to prohibited items um it's been an issue I don't know that they are I I don't know if they're in there or not I think we have I don't think they're allowed flame remember I just know right now you can't have fire on the beach but you can't build a fire but if we change it to open flame solve the problem yep what about lighters for cigars which the state allows I know right makes zero sense um tiki torches great idea okay to prohibitions correct yes yeah I think I mean Open Flame sounds reasonable Mr Welch it's really pertinent uh that we get a position that allows us to restrict by licensing any business that's on the beach period whether it's commercial fishing or it's launching large flotilla from the ramp and it is there's more of it that goes on on the beach I mean I walked down Saturday night there were 10 commercial things going on we should be let we should have the power to allow or not allow so your what is our current the only thing current in our code is you cannot exchange money on the Sandy Beach that's it and and solicit and solicit so um and we talked about this in other workshops I suggest we treat it kind of hybrid but similar how we would do a class because a lot of them is recreational things like we do at our rec center and treat it or like our Park our beach is like a a large park and if they're an instructor on the beach we do our instructor backgrounds we do a contract we get their insurance and we have some ability to control similar how we we're talking about with boat ramp um and within that we could say we're only going to allow two yoga classes on our beaches at any given time and we I mean we could set parameters or say we don't want any but I think we want people to oh yeah we do activities and things that are cool on the beach but I think we have no control over it right now and and I I'm a control person that's we're here and so I that's what I would suggest that how we're kind of handling the boat ramp and this is how we been talking about being able to have it done as an annual process and so if you are doing picnics they know they can't have alcohol they know they can't do this and they sign off that they can and then if they do guess what you're not going to do it anymore well it it's also the inconvenience of the of the citizens and the visitors to the beach to have a commercial Venture come in uh and take up space that I mean that they're there as a business don't we license businesses on the beach can you can I open a store tomorrow without a license how can I open a business on the beach without a license you can open a business as long as you exchange the money somewhere else and not on the sand right I said you can have a business as long as you exchange the money somewhere not on the sand yep so what we did with the bo ramp though we we created a permitting right and so again going back to Matthew's previous the earlier conversation we had you know one two three strikes the ability to revoke permits you know have the ability to control that so that if you have a bad actor we have the ability to put an end to it um so maybe we can do something similar along those lines where if you want to do something on the beach it requires a permit yeah the only business we do have is beach weddings what beach weddings that's the only thing currently that we do a permit for oh or if there's a film commission or people are doing a commercial or filming something it goes through the county and then we approve that that right now is all that we kind of have control over we we took over the beach wedding permits changed immensely where we're only allowing so many it's any given day um probably eight years ago and then charged from $20 to 250 so it yeah it's the only business on the beach right now we make money off of well I just think that I already made a note to add commercial activities to the definition but you know I like bright line rules but we may need to think about some exemptions here because I'm just thinking of your you know everyday yoga teacher she probably doesn't have insurance I mean do you want to limit that activity altogether in our Parks too I mean I think we need to start thinking how limiting do we want to be the complaints I've gotten are the picnics because they take up a lot of area yoga teachers it's usually in our class it's over and and everyone's gone they have insurance out of there by well I'm just just we may have to make distinctions on when we Define commercial activities what level of requirements we're going to I think yeah I think you're exactly right you know um at upam particularly um you know there's there's a lot of commercial activity happening but but it's across a really broad spectrum right because there's you know a local photographer who's one person out there with a family doing family photos on the rocks and then there's also you know a company doing a bikini photo shoot with a pop-up changing room on the beach and four photographers and three people carrying lights and five wagons full of full of camera gear and those are two very you know those are those are both commercial activity but they're they're different levels of commercial activity Matthew is there there any you know I think that um as we as we go through this beach ordinance and I know one of the things in the beach ordinance is is is licenses for businesses who are doing business on the beach and those sorts of things but between that and the working out the parameters for the the chairs and the alcohol service areas behind the hotels is there any benefit in doing this in kind of two stages you know I'm I'm thinking about this and wondering if if will have a better chance of actually getting something done and starting to be able to implement some of these things if we if we can do it in a couple of chunks versus having to get all of these things from every direction completely finalized before we can pass the ordinance and have any way to to manage any of it short answer is yes can absolutely bifurcate or I mean once you establish the the chapter then you can amend it via two read readings at at any time um so we we can do that you can focus on I mean we're doing the sea turtles separate but you could say you know we're going to save Cabanas for the next version or we're going to save commercial permits for the next ver I mean it's really up to you all yeah I don't know if anybody else has any thoughts about that I I I I feel like this is this is so big and there's so many different directions that the conversation goes and so many different kinds of businesses that it that it affects and and especially now with the economic impact statement that um you know it would be really great if there was some chunks of this that that could actually happen um and and I don't know if there's any you know I I don't know if anybody else has any feelings about about the best way to move forward with some of that I mean we're 99% 95% done here I think we just need to get over the finish line at this point I mean unless anybody else sees anything huge that we're missing I think at where we at at this point is we've left it to the staff to go back do do some measurements come back with a few recommendations and we're basically done so I'm not sure why we want to over complicate it if there's something that pops up we can always address it later again same way two readings right if there's some glaring emission or something that we has unintended consequences as some of you have mentioned we can address it but at this point we're so close to the Finish Line let's carry it over the Finish Line let's let the staff do what they need to do in the next 30 60 days however long it takes come back to the commission with those recommendations we can then have a first reading we can have a second reading and then have this thing wrapped up Mr kurman the only things we discussed today were Cabanas setbacks commercial something or other and removing chairs and then kicking the turtles to the to the corner so to speak uh and I think we have some things Cor well because we cuz we already it's because we already it's because we already covered everything else previously I don't believe that we have I just you know shelved any discussion any of those items because you asked the agenda be these four items um there are a number of different items if you go down the actual ordinance you know maybe we should just and I think this is a very good idea and and there's a number of complaints uh from people saying this is too much at once you know 3 minutes to talk about all of this so maybe there should be an ordinance that simply focuses on Cabanas setbacks chairs and where you can have them that's what we discussed today that is a bite-sized thing to come forward and put in section 95 to start now getting into but these other topics that are in here that that are moving and you can't even tell what's changing is way way out of scope from what we discussed today and I I know I haven't even had an opportunity to raise any of those issues I think if we were talking about simply just updating a few sections of different ordinances but what we're talking about doing is our entire code is stripping things out of it and creating a separate separate chapter just for Beach ordinances and if we start doing those things then then we haven't actually accomplished what we're trying to accomplish well the problem was they made changes as they were moving them so it's not just a move well the CH move and change and can't tell what changed and what was only because it moved because everything looks new well we've got I've got a Redline version and I've got a cling but the redline version simply says it it was deleted from you know chapter 48 and added to 95 so what changed and what all show very simple everything's underlined that's being moved correct yes but look at the language if it's struck through it's changed the language of the section no so what happened is you deleted everything in section 48 because it was deleted there and you underline everything in '95 because it was added but what was added in 95 doesn't match what was deleted in the older section so you so unless I sit there and which I have and compare the langage I say oh look they took out two of the Doom protection items that used to be in there now we're not going to protect the first five fet of the dunes from from mechanical uh Machinery oh look they changed this all these other changes are in there because as it moved it changed you can't see the changes on the workshop in the commission and the beach stewardship that gave us direction as we move through these it I raised this issue then it didn't accurately reflect you whenever you negotiate a contract with redlines you can't just delete 10 pages and write a new 10 pages and say see it's redlined you have to actually only change the words so people can see what changed and that didn't happen so so I think we've we've gotten Direction um personally I think I've I mean to your point I've listened to all of your comments I've sat through 20 hours of meetings I've read your PowerPoint seven times I mean I don't know how much we can really discuss some of these things that have already been agreed on to the mayor's point it can always be changed it's not forever I can guarantee you it's way better than what we have now and that's what the focus should be let's get some of these things addressed if we need to split it we can but personally I've been dealing with this since 2022 and I'll work on it for three more years if you want me to but I think at some point we have to pull the trigger on something why not just pull the trigger on caban since that's what we we focused on today and are ready to the Trigg we have one minute left so here's maybe a compromise solution right we've we've given the staff direction there's nothing that says we can't schedule a one-hour joint Workshop maybe July August after we come back with the information prior to a first reading and and then maybe at that point if there's any individual items that anyone has from the beach stewardship or from the commission if you want to send them to the assistant City attorney and said here are some items I'd like you to take a look at prior to the workshop we can do that and then we can have one more short Workshop where we go over the items requested today and then if we're ready we can send it to the first reading sounds great okay unless there's any to clarify I think um you had asked Amber about the first reading or whether it's supposed to be a second reading what that what it means because you I think we've made so many changes we might as well treat it as a first reading there's nothing we have to do because of it needs to be we're two years removed from first reading yeah no we're we're starting over all right thank you everyone for coming we are adjourned hold done