##VIDEO ID:Z-41GciNrUg## e e e e e e e e to today is Tuesday October 22nd 2024 it is 6 p.m. let's stand for the Pledge of Allegiance iedge Al to the the United States of America to the rep for it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice for all thank you city clerk if you'll please do a roll call vice mayor molland here commissioner Marriott here commissioner Robinson here commissioner R Niki here mayor patrill here we have AUM good evening everyone um I see many faces that were not here last night uh we had a town hall uh where we discussed some of the same issues and then we also open up for question and answers for everyone and since most of you were not here yesterday um I will just start if you'll allow me for one minute uh Commissioners just want to restate some of the opening remarks from last night um what our city is going through this is unprecedented 1957 almost 70 years our city has never gone through anything like this before never mind two instances so fast back to back you know first our homes got taken out by water then our homes got taken out by wind um and just the scope of what we're dealing with in our city it is unprecedented none of us have gone through this before and so as we're you know working on rebuilding as we're working on putting our city and our homes and our lives back together um there are going to be some very difficult conversations that we have to have as a city commission as neighbors as residents as cons as constituents in this in this City they going to be very tough conversations that we're going to have and there are going to be times where you think well these guys they're just full of it they're not working hard enough or they're playing favorites with my neighbor because their trash got picked up but my trash didn't get picked up and you might be thinking we're not dedicating all the resources that we can or we're not spending as much money as we can as quickly as we can um but the reality is what we're here to do is and what you'll see in the first couple presentations is to give you the facts as they are not going to try to sugarcoat it for you none of our staff will try their sugar coated for you some of this will be extremely unpleasant some of it will be extremely scary some of it is going to be expensive and difficult and we're going to try to do everything that we can I know I've I've looked what these Commissioners have done the last four weeks out in the community talking to neighbor working hand inand being present on social media to distribute information and I'm impressed by their dedication I'm also extremely impressed and I'm also grateful for what our staff has done many of whom if you're not sure if you don't know live in our city who have lost as much as any of us have lost and yet through all all this they're still here to serve us which em brings me to my one request that I'm going to make of you both tonight and in the days going forward going to ask you to do two things and they're not going to be fun they're not going to be easy and they're not going to come naturally they certainly don't come naturally to me the first thing I'm going to ask you for is patience I wish I could go back to how things were four weeks ago just like this I can't make that happen none of us can make that happen for you our staff cannot can't make that happen for you it will take time we were at a meeting this morning um with our state director who's working with people from Fort Meyers 33 day 33 months in some of them are still living in trailers so for some of you for some of us it's going to be 3 months 6 months a year maybe longer before we get back to normal it will take time and it will take patience the trash will not disappear over the off the streets magically overnight it will take time and patience which brings me to my second request and as you're interacting with each other as you're interacting with our staff and your Commissioners I'm going to ask for you to be kind I'm mad I'm mad about what happened I'm mad about the things that I've lost I'm mad about walking in here and seeing people crying but as we interact with each other I'm going to ask you to be kind as you're working with our permitting office in the coming months I'm going to be asking you to remember that they are also residents who work in the city and who also your homes that you be kind as you work with them you want to call me and yell at me I'll be the one okay my cell phone number is on the city website happy to do it but for everybody else I will ask that you be kind to them and give them the patience and allow them to do their jobs and we will work through this together I know when I look at other communities who've gone through this and one of the reporters last night asked me why why do you seem so optimistic because I've seen what can happen six months a year down the road I've seen the quality and the character of the people that live here and that gives me a lot of Hope the fact that you know 20 24 of our staff who've lost everything are still here every day they haven't quit yet the fact that our commissioners are out there every single day and they've all lost homes and cars and clothes and everything else and they are still here the fact that so many of you are here tonight and in fact last night we had probably twice as many people we had standing room only everyone's out there that that gives me hope because I know that you haven't given up on our town and you haven't given up on our community and that should fill you with hope as well because we're in this together and together we're going to move forward so thank you all for being here tonight and with that let's move on to our very first presentation I know this one is very near and dear to many of you I know it's near and dear to me my wife asks me every day when are they coming so we're going to be talking about trash and de breeze pickup good evening uh mayor vice mayor Commissioners Charter officials um my name is Camden Mills and I have the pleasure of serving as your city engineer and assistant Public Works director I appreciate the opportunity tonight to um explain our our debris management procedures and uh the program that that we're currently have underway here uh the objective here um that we'd like to accomplish is to address the city's response progress our recovery strategy um for managing the disaster debris um we'll be going over um some debris management 101 explaining some key terms in in the process um we'll discuss some of our progress to date um some of the roadblocks that we've encountered um this far um go over some of the guidance um from the state as as well as the federal agencies um talk about some of our strategic approaches um we'll discuss commercial debris and and the eligibility requirements there um go over some of the frequently asked questions that that we've received to date and then um also provide some resources and contacts um for our businesses and residents so debris management 101 um like I mentioned it goes through some key terms and processes um discuss some of the accepted storm debris that will be collected as well as mentioning um some of the storm debris that that our program is not collecting and then we'll go over some some guidance for our residents um these are some of the key terms that that we plan on covering today um most of this is related to the type of equipment that we've deployed um so when you're seeing these um equipment throughout the streets you'll know what their purpose is um for helping us collect this debris first is our beach raker um the beach raker here as you see this will this will comb our beaches and pick up some of the medium and and large type debris and then deposit it so our Hall trucks can can come and collect it um I'm sure some of you have already seen some progress on Passa Grill Beach there and and that was a big Testament to the work that that we were able to accomplish through these be shakers next is our collection and Grappler trucks um these are the trucks that are going around and picking up the the debris that's on the side of the ride of way um there's mechanic that's operating the crane and they'll Place those in the truck um each of these trucks is checked in and has a special placard um for the amount of volume that they're able to store and then those are monitored and and taken to our debris site at at Egan Park here is our um disaster debris management site um which is is at Egan Park um this site is a temporary staging area for the processing the debris before um it's hauled off to the final disposal site um Egan Park has historically been the city's ddms and is permitted with the Florida Department of Environmental Protection um with a debris management site and the permitting process through FD um we have to um provide them with a map of the areas that we plan on holding the debris um we showed them the required setbacks to make sure we're we're in compliant um with all inv enironmental procedures and then after um the debris is is staged at this site it is um collected again and then moved to a final disposal site um which are all FD approved landfills um once we're done with this operation um we'll bring FD in um to do a final um on-site inspection um they'll go through a series of checklists um to make sure um if there's any remediation or or mitigation work required um to open this back up as a park um the hall truck these are the type of vehicles that will be at Egan Park um that everyone will put their debris in um that the collection trucks will put their debris in and then hauled off to our our final disposal sites the monitors um these are the key piece um for us to be able to get um reimbursement from FEMA on on our efforts the monitors they follow the collection structs down the streets um they'll do a GPS location at each site that they're picked up on they look at the debris to make sure that it's sorted and and categorized the type of the debris it is and then once they get into Egan Park on the picture here on the right as you see them in the scissor lift that's when they're inspecting inside the truck um estimating the total cubic yardage based on the size of the truck and collecting the data um that's very important for us to submit our final reports um when this project is done skids deer um these are the smaller type equipments that'll be following behind um so far we've been using these a lot of u beach and and sand type removals um after our collection truck um make our first pass throughout the city you'll start to see these trucks um coming through picking up some of the smaller debris that's left behind that the grappler trucks can't pick up the street sweeper um this is kind of the Finishing Touch um they'll come through and pick the very fine debris up in in our roadways the vacuum truck um this is equipment that we use to clean out our storm drains um they'll open up and and and vacuum up the sediment um that that was collected in our storm um manholes and our um conveyance pipes next I want to talk about some of the process that goes into debris collection um really we have our beach and sand rate clearing um our streets and storm water um the residential collection the monitoring and Reporting as as well as our hul out um for our beach and sand clearing um we have four different contractors that are performing this work in addition to our our own City staff um aftermath has provided two skid steers that have been working to clear the beach um Beach raker U was a contractor that that was raking Passa Grill Beach and they completed that last week um Gator dredging who is contracted through pelis County they're clearing um some of the sand that was on Golf Way sifting it and if it passes inspection placing that back um within the Dune area on on passag grill and then LTS was another contract that we Ed to clear some of our beach access points and and walkways um they completed the work that they were able to do um last week and in our city staff is going to finish the remaining work there and then we are partnering um with our state to clean our water ways um we submitted a mission request um this morning um so they could provide us with resources um that can get to the waterways through boats and barges um to clean up any debris that's there um streets and storm water so as I mentioned these are the vacuum trucks and in the street sweepers that'll come through and and help clean out that conveyance system so as you see you know the debris it's a lot more than just what's on the rideway we have to consider you know what may have gotten into our infrastructure as well the residential collection um this is where we have aftermath Disaster Recovery there're our main contract that's performing this work um this contractor was competitively bid um before the storm season um which will be important for us as we're providing documentation um to FEMA um the efforts for for aftermath and their residential collection it really starts with um the debris forecast they came in here immediately after the storm drove the roads and kind of put together an estimate of what they thought the efforts would be needed and then they kind of sized their truck and their operation um based on what they think that need is currently um aftermath has 11 trucks um going around our and collecting residential debris um they've been able to recently um secure additional resources from from subcontractors to supplement their efforts so as we are um able to and put more trucks on the street that's exactly what we're going to try and do and get um get this collected as quick as we can back here monitoring and Reporting um so this as I said is very crucial um to the city to be able to um get our reimbursement and making sure that we're compliant with all state and um federal guidelines um rostand Solutions is our contractor that's providing the monitoring and Reporting services and as as with aftermath they were competitively bid um prior to the storm season um our monitors provide us with daily um reports of the removal totals um categorized by the different debris types and um they submit their um their results daily um to the state into a dashboard that that the state collects all the data that the cities and counties are collecting and then the last piece of our process is our hul out um our hul out we have two different contractors we're working with to get the material moved from Egan Park to the final disposal site um one is Waste Connections and the the other is dirt on demand um Waste Connections currently has 10 trucks in service and their final disposal location is um the Heart of Florida environmental landfill which is in in Central Florida near the Orlando area and then our subcontractor dirt on demand they have 15 trucks in service and planned up to add an additional 15 more um as as needed and they're using um three different um final disposal sites all of which are approved by D and eligible for for FEMA reimbursement um next I want to talk about some of the accepted storm debris um that will be collected here we are asking our residents to to separate their debris in these three distinct categories um first of which is vegetative debris second of which is construction and demolition debris and third of which is the household appliances um our first push that we're coming through here initially will be collecting the construction and demolition debris um then we'll be moving towards more household appliance items and then finally the the vegetative debris when we collect this debris and take it to ekan park it's staged into three different areas so you may see a truck you know come through your neighborhood and collect construction and demolition debris but they may leave that vegetative or or that Appliance because they have to collect each individual category um at one time some of the debris that is not going to be collected here is is household trash um we we ask that you work with your your regular account holder for your collection pickup um for that um electronics and and hazardous waste are also um types of debris that that we're not collecting and there is resources um in pelis County where where residents um can take these type of debris to dispose of and next is some guidance for our residents um first of which our utmost importance is to stay safe um we ask you know wear protective gear such as gloves or masks when handling debris and contact your local emergency manager if you have a property that's littered with storm related debris that you suspect May pose um a threat to Public Health or safety um as you clear the debris um look carefully for any visible cables and if you see cables um wait for a professional to handle them um this picture here shown is is provided by FEMA that just shows you know an example of how you sort and categorize that debris um on your RightWay so it can be collected properly uh we want to make sure that you know you don't place them under a tree um next to a storm um Inlet or curb inlet and that can be easily accessible um by by our contractors um next um um as far as placing debris and and don't block in debris um and then follow the city and and County alerts our our social media Pages we're we're releasing information there um so residents can come in and see some of these resources on where they can get specific guidelines on what type of debris and and how they need to be sorted um next I'd like to cover um some of our program or progress to date um as you can see this map here and these purple dots these are all the areas that have been serviced so far um so we have been able to make um pretty substantial efforts this far in our first pass um our our contractor Rosen estimates in total that we're going to be collecting about 125,000 cubic yards um the number I'm showing up here 73 is a little outdated um as of afternoon we're at 80,000 um cubic yards and we're targeting 90 days um to get everything picked up and in this project um that 90-day time frame is supported by the state um they provided an emergency order um asking that cities and counties um try to get that completed um 100% within that time frame right now um we're estimating about four more weeks to complete the first pass of all homes our Target date to have every home hit once is is mid November around November 16th and then we're estimating about another 6 weeks um for all the remaining passes our our plan right now is to pass every home um a minimum of three times our Target to complete all passes is December 23rd um so just just before Christmas there and I like to please note that these estimates they they may fluctuate due to the multiple variables involved in this project um however we're going to strive to remove the debris as quickly and safely as possible um next I'd like to talk about some of the uh the roadblocks that we encountered so far um first of which is the the lack of available property um for our debris management site within City Limits um that provide enough space to fit the FD setback requirements um we are actively um trying to find additional sites but but right now you know Egan Egan is the one that we have um another roadblock that we've that we've encountered that we've started to overcome here in the past um week is supply and demand of resources that's your Grappler cranes your collection trucks your hall trucks um the Florida Department of environment of Transportation fdot as well as Hillsboro County recently released new contracts that have higher pay rates um which is taking a lot of those resources away from cities and counties um so they can go somewhere else and and make more money fortunately we we haven't read um ran into that issue yet and our current contractors are are abiding by the contracts that we have in place um state and federal regulations for reimbursement that's something that we have to to always consider we don't want to get down the road a couple years from now and see that you know all the work that we did isn't isn't reimbursable so that's something that's at at the Forefront of our mind and we're we're always um reaching out to fdm and FEMA for further guidance on on um what's going to be eligible for reimbursement um to get into some of the specifics on the fdem guidance um that emergency order um that I mentioned local governments um need to continue to remove debris around the clock for 90 days or until the debris mission is complete um local governments May request an exemption from this directive um if they think the cumulative debris total will be less than 100,000 cubic yards we plan to um submit this exemption request um just based on the numbers that we have now since we're under that $100,000 or 100,000 cubic yard limit but um we do expect you know that that we may be over that anyway um and Al also with the state um we will be um filing expedited project worksheet um that will help us get some of um our upfront cost back back um back sooner than if we if we didn't go through that exibited process um for reporting to the state our our debris is going to be categorized in two different categories category a is the main debris removal which is your household your vegetation and um appliances and then category B is your emergency protection measures that's the first push where we um are moving trees so there's safe access on roads and things like that um next is the FEMA guidance um so we'll be submitting a request for Public Assistance or public assistance and FEMA's Grant portal um and we're going to actively continue to seek guidance on on whether these two storms will be combined or remain separate um for documentation and reimbursement requests as it stands now these two storms um will remain separate um and that's how we're currently operating if that changed we're we're prepared to combine them but um as for now we're planning on the stfe side and and planning um these debris will be separate and we're documenting two different two different events here um and pelis County Emergency Management they have submitted a letter to the state um regarding debris on Commercial and private property so that that's an issue that we're continue to work with and and reaching out to our partners um multiple times daily just to see if if any of that guidance is changing next I'd like to get into some of the uh strategic approaches that we're applying um to to this program first is providing additional Hall trucks um our debris collection contractor aftermath has hired additional subcontractors um to bride Hall out trucks to remove the debris quicker from Egan Park um I think you guys have probably seen some significant progress in the past two days where we've been able to take that pile down um quite significantly uh we plan to continually add more trucks until we reach um Peak efficiency of our operations and um you know we we'll continue to increase those haulout efforts as needed to to limit the growth of the piles um next is um to expand our hours of operation um our monitoring contractor rostan is is providing additional person to monitor the increased number of collection and Haul trucks that we plan on adding to this operation uh we'll be working on hauling out overnight um to comply with the state regulations in in that 90-day time frame um third managed the conditions at the at the DMS um we've executed Pest Control um through our vendor pest Masters that started last week um to help you know any varment that may be in the area um due to the garbage we're working with the state um through a mission requests through um our County Emergency Management to have Odor Control deployed out there um to help provide some additional environmental benefits um that Odor Control will spray notorized neutral neutralizer on the waste and and we're hoping that'll that'll help condition uh we plan to implement 247 surveillance um to help with some of the Safety and Security at the site um and that'll also help enforce um any illegal dumping um that that may occur you know that when we're not there watching um we've ordered a perimeter fence um with some opaque screening um to help to help manage that site and we again we think that's going to help um with some of our some of our safety and and security um and lastly um we're trying to secure additional final disposal sites um as I mentioned um the site we're using with Waste Connections available was in Central Florida was was really not optimal for Logistics so as we've added in the subcontractor and found additional um FD approved um sites we'll be taking debris out to there that'll help um improve our operations um Closer Closer sites will reduce travel time have you know more time that the trucks can be on the streets collecting next I'd like to get into evaluating um private property um debris removal um removal from commercial property under FEMA's current guidance U requires preapproval um removal of debris from commercial properties such as apartments and Condominiums is generally ineligible um because commercial Enterprises are expected to retain insurance that that covers debris removal and very limited um extraordinary circumstance St es FEMA May provide an exception to this Rule and there's um an application and a procedure process where where that can um that can be done um the latest guidance that we've heard is that that it's not likely um but it is it is a possibility and something that we're we're going to be actively exploring until we get some some clear guidance um next I'd like to cover um some of the cost if we if we were to collect commercial debris um the table on the left here you see the pay items that that are directly from our contracts with rostan and aftermath um and these are these are rates based on cubic yardage um so for collecting and Hauling it the manage and reduction at Egan Park um the final disposal um taking it to off of Egan Park to the final site and then the monitoring in total it costs about $17.65 to $225 per cubic yard um to go through this this entire process so if you're looking um at the table on the right there there's a range of different cubic yardage and what that cost um would come out to equate to um our Our rough ballpark estimate of what we think our our commercial debris is is probably around that 75,000 range um again that's it's hard to estimate that but we think you know it'd be in the cost of of over a million dollars for for our commercial properties and finally I'll get into some of the frequently um asked questions that we've received so far um so what if you don't want to wait for the city storm debris collection um if you don't want to wait you can take it to the County's um EAS or Central location um or their North location you must show ID and proof that you live in in an unincorporated area and pelis county has some guidance um with some addresses on the um hours of operation of those facilities as as well as addresses will debris be collected from my business um currently the city's curbside collection plan will be for residents only um businesses are responsible for moving their storm debris and may want to hire a private contractor HOAs um similar to businesses um that they're they're currently under the current FEMA guidelines responsible for for removing the debris and and may want to hire a private contractor um sand that is on your property um clean sand from the beach that ended up on your property you can return it to the beach in the Dune uh above the high tide line uh which is the mean high water line it must not have any stains odors or debris and you may not you must not place it over Dune plants turtl Nest hurricane generated debris or construction debris um we ask that you do not place the sand in your trash or out on the road um if your sand is not clean um doesn't meet those requirements that show stains odors or or has some debris mixed in it then um contaminated sand um should be brought to the county sand drop off location and you can find some more guidance on that from from pelis County um seaw wall damage if if the back of your seaw wall was exposed um we advise that you consult a structural engineer or licensed Marine contractor before covering um cuz your seaw wall could be damaged and and putting sand on it you know may prevent um may cause some further damage so you should get that inspected um what do you do with used sandbags um you can reuse the clean sandbags um but do not throw contam contaminated sand bags in your trash or dump or um don't dump them on the beach um you can bring the sandbags um separated from other waste to Solid Waste Disposal complex and you can find those addresses at penis.and bags um here on the screen here are some additional resources um um for debris collection um city of St beach in our stay in the no collection we're providing um The Daily reports that we receive from our contractors we're uploading them um we're putting our total debris collected to Total debris um hauled out so if you want to stay up to the progress of our efforts um you can check there um we have some State and and federal guidance um links up there if you'd like to see the specific language that's kind of guiding our operations and and our project here as well as pandelis County Emergency Management um where they get into the detail on separating debris and where you can take different types of debris um as well as Waste Connections customer service um that's that's an outlet too if if residents don't want to wait for our collection um they can contact Waste Connections and they'll provide them with a drop off dumpster um to go that route um with that I'll I'll open it up for any questions thank you camon I think city manager we were at a meeting this morning hosted by um f uh DM the uh director was there and he had some particularly strong verbage to talk about the condos and uh Commercial Business um so he said that is it not working there we go one of the things that he said was that in in the five hurricanes that he's gone through this process FEMA has not reimbursed or approved reimbursal a single time zero times and so if there's any hope I don't think there is there you know based on their past Performance Based on their past actions they're not reimbursing for condos and Commercial debris I appreciate that comment and we're currently operating under that exact guidance as if they if they won't reimburse that that's that's how we're operating um I've got a question for you Camden for um for businesses who but by nature of where they're located ended up with debris from other houses or businesses on their property is the business owner responsible or or I mean you could say the same for a homeowner but but we're picking up debris from homeowners so if if a you know if a a a bar from one establishment ends up in the parking lot of a different establishment did is is the the business owner who owns the property where the stuff ended up responsible for getting rid of it even though it wasn't their debris it was just storm debris that ended up on their property the same as the damaged stuff that they pull out of their building is that is that all the same as far as the city goes or is there somebody that they can call and say hey this stuff washed like this stuff got deposited on my property in the storm I don't know where it came from can can can somebody pick it up you know because in some cases those are large items that you can't just pick up and put in a dumpster right and that's a great question because there there is some kind of gray area in in that sort of thing there is a process um that you would request from FEMA and they would send down an an inspector and kind of look at that as on a case-by Case basis okay um but as mentioned um typically those things aren't aren't eligible for reimbursement okay and and there's no um and and is there any I mean even on a even on a a a paid basis you know is there any assistance that that um that public works or anybody can can provide for that because again sometimes these are large items that like you know the the the 65y old lady that owns the gift shop can't really go out there and drag the 700 lb dock into a dumpster you know like is is is is there is there any assistance for things like that other than just you know start start calling around to a dumpster company who can come sort you out um my recommendation would be to to call a you know a private company that could haul that off but I I would leave that up to the city manager and also I think that'd be a policy decision if you wanted to direct staff to to collect that all right thank you just to add on to that if and I I actually know you're talking about because I I had the pleasure of meeting her and I think if there's oneoff instances have them report to my office I do have some discretion of spending from the commission under a allotment of $25,000 and so those kind of oneoff odd you know a couch ended up in my you know showcase room at a small Record Shop I mean those make sense so I if you give me the discretion I can certainly I think there are those unique cases that people just unusually got impacted that were not the normal uh large amounts of debris thank you I have a couple of questions and and something that commissioner marott um mentioned um I've I've been but called by many but some of the condominiums for example um one particular case one condominium is putting their debris on another Condominiums area because they probably felt at the moment that it was closer to the road so they piled more on another condominium debris is um now because I looked at your cubic feed and what the possible cost could be so that means now that condominium that had the added debris at it may have to pay more money because of something that another person did or kind of like what you're saying whether a business is put putting it on residential or residential is putting it on the business are these code enforcement issues that are going on that you know we're all trying to recover not thinking that we're harming another group or person monetarily um should they be reaching out to the city to say hey um this is going on do they reach out to law enforcement um that's one question and another one I did see the estimate that you that you put out and you said commercial maybe about 75,000 cubic feet again I'm not sure how large of a commercial they're all they're all very different um but if we had a good estimate of what it could cost uh for a condominium for us to pick it up um have them pay for it up front and maybe the hopes of getting reimbursed in the future but at least we can maybe and maybe if the price is less than them going private because we have so much debris because of the mass debris would their cost be less you know like it's like buying in bulk you know if you're you're picking up more could each individual condominium be paying less because it's a a group contract let's you know call it that right um if that's if that's a possibility and and then my third I don't want to put a lot on you but and this is just for me to understand from what I've been seeing and I'm sure a lot of residents have been seeing it too um um not to mention I know we posted that we were picking up and and I'll just say it's Corey Avenue cuz I'm not sure how we we're paying for it so that's just a question um or are we asking those businesses to pay for it um and um you know some Condominiums and you probably all see like if you're on Gul Boulevard obviously the state came in and clean sweeped Golf Boulevard so if you happen to be a condominium or business there let's just say you were lucky you on Gul Boulevard because the state came in and picked it up for you um so I would understand that discrepancy per se because it was a state state roadway um but even in one of your pictures here um that you just presented you had a picture of a condominium um a two-story complex that was had that had the grapple picking up the garbage so how was that possible um just a question okay yes um so regarding um regarding your first question that's it's an unfortunate situation um that's we we would ask you know if they can consult the city and we could help provide some guidance um to those different units um because yes you certainly wouldn't want to put costs on on someone else and and give them that undue burden um regarding um first not not code enforcement call City well I actually would suggest that the property owners of each of the Condominiums try to work it out themselves if they unable to they can certainly call the city but eventually it would be a Code Enforcement issue so if we get to that point um but I mentioned last night I've unless I'm directed otherwise by the commission I've directed staff to wait 90 days for code enforcement and give everyone the same Grace that the city currently has in this situation so we're all kind of in it together and then at the end of 90 days that is our only Avenue to make sure that people comply with the debris removal and then um regarding the condominium yeah our debris contractor should not should not be collecting from from Condominiums right now um that's that's really the importance of our monitors is to make sure that they're following guidelines um catching that that GPS location so we'll touch base with them and and just make sure um that that they're continuing to not do that thank you and then I can and then the business I can address the Cory Avenue that's a great example of me using my discretion so um the Cory Avenue sponsors the Sunday market which is a public benefit for the entire city and so in the interest of of kind of producing that um resource back to the community quickly I made the decision to have us assist they actually have probably spent thousands of dollars cleaning up prior to us going in so it's one of those judgment calls of I thought it was a good collaboration and a community benefit again again making some of those smaller spend discretionary decisions based on the circumstances commissioner Mah thank you Mr Mills I appreciate uh everything you've had to say and also I I think I'd like to thank uh aftermath it seems like they're using us right um based on what they could be doing uh adding trucks and maintaining the rate so um kudos to them for that I have three uh three questions um a couple of them Fair a little bit comprehensive and one of them probably pretty simple uh it's been suggested that maybe somehow we start um giving the residents uh some type of schedule on certain streets Avenues uh that either are going to be picked up within the coming week name the timeline or at least when they're in queue to be um coming up fairly soon I don't know what's the feasibility of that that's something that we've requested aftermath um to work with us to provide we'd ask if they can give us a two-day look ahead and and a onewe look ahead and that we could post that onto our city um website along with our our progress numbers okay all right thank you uh uh my second question is the map that you presented uh did that include the national guard pickup or was that just the aftermath that's a great question that was only the aftermath um collection okay so any work that the National Guard did really isn't captured on any Maps or reports that we have that's correct yep that that mission um was handled separately separately by the state um so they'll the ones that that have that data the data that we're tracking is only for aftermath and and rostan okay and my last question and uh I'm guessing this will probably go to the city manager uh uh it was my belief that we were possibly going to discuss during this meeting um the cost feasibility ramifications meaning Financial ramifications if the citizens desired us to try to get the debris picked up in less than 90 days um by bringing on additional resources and by tagging on to the new RFP by um pelis County uh it seems like aftermath is doing more and more for us it originally was six trucks I believe yes sir uh now it's 11 uh so uh I I think that's good I don't know is there any consideration to try to get more resources and potentially have to pay more for those resources or are we gonna are we planning on primarily running with aftermath and um anticipating that we'll be done before 30 days that's that's a great question and and something that um you know we're analyzing day by day our our current plan is to continue with aftermath um add subcontractors under them as needed um to provide the additional resources um one of the things is like as you mentioned you know aftermath is honoring our current contract and our current rates and that process is is working well um we we are on track to finish within that 90day time frame so my recommendation would be continue the course um unless that changes and then then we'll switch gears uh we do have commitments from the state that they can provide us with additional resources as needed um but with that um our our operation really it has a bottleneck at at Egan Park um having having that one disposal site that that's kind of our bottleneck you saw that when the pile started to pile up really high um where that that was limited now we're starting to haul out more more and more debris so we can add more collection trucks onto the street um but with that bottleneck I think we would run into at some point we're going to reach Peak efficiency where you know adding more resources may not necessarily help it would just you know create a parking lot on blind pass great answer I appreciate that and I once again it's great that aftermath has given us 11 as opposed to six I think that's a real win for us thank you I think just so that the public understands kind kind of what we're dealing with right so as a city we have to operate on a Balan budget which means this is how much money is coming in from parking from tax revenue from permitting fees and this is this is what we're spending it on and we cannot collect we can't spend more than what we have and so almost any given year it's 100% right the amount of money that we get coming in is about the amount of money that we have going out I mean last year we did a rate reduction um so what happens in situations like this if you look at the graph that you showed us earlier Kim in for about 125 to 150 cubic yards it was 3 and5 million that would be the cost to the city right now if we had to pay for it and we are paying for it but by following all of these guidelines collecting the trash separately taking it to Egan Park sorting it weighing it I know that sounds ridiculous but that is the it is ridiculous right let's be honest here but that's the only way for us to get rid ured the city does not have an extra $3.5 million to pick up all this trash which is why we're relying on FEMA to reimburse us that's why we're having to jum through all of these hoops it's not because we think it's fun to go you know by each house three or four or five times drive it three miles up the road and then drive it 75 miles to Lakeland and then drive wait there for two hours to drop it off and then drive back and that's ridiculous for each load that takes 5 to six hours that's one of the reasons why we have these these bottlenecks the size of Egan field but really so that you understand why we as a city have to do this because if we didn't have the feema reimbursement would have to pay for it we do not have an extra that would be about 10% of our budget so that means we would have to cut something else in our city budget to be able to pay just for the residential and keep in mind that the commercial condo debris is almost as much so that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of you know 7 to eight million just this year and that's not even fixing our infrastructure not even fixing our damaged buildings nothing else just trash so I just want to make sure that everyone understands why we're jumping through these hoops um so that we can get reimbursed excuse me mar and not to diminish your amount because it's still a lot of it's a lot of money either way but it would would it be closer to like 1.5 to $2 million because on that presentation we're going through hoops in order to get reimbursed right we have to take it to Egan Park we have to weigh it we have to separate it but if we just hired a company that didn't have to jump through all those Hoops just to throw a number could it be two million you know two million that we don't have obviously well we talked with Treasure Island this morning and they ran the numbers of what they called quick and dirty and jumping through all the hoops and it was about 25% more expens or a 25% discount if you didn't so it's still a ridiculously high number it could be a million dollars for we don't have the extra million have the extra money correct that's why I said I don't want to undermine the amount absolutely it's money it's a ridiculously large number no matter which way you cut it and not only that but we still would have we still be stuck going to Lakeland or wherever else because it has to be a approved dumping site panellos will not take it that's why we're driving to Lakeland I I know how close pelis is it's it's 15 minutes from here thank you sir thank you all right next we will have a presentation on the substantial Improvement or the FEMA 50% rule you want to do comment before the before that's we're doing presentations and if I may preface it with one comment um if you go to the uh Facebook page uh should also be in our YouTube channel um last week uh state representative Cheney who is also a resident in St Pete Beach she set up a call with the City of Cape Coral who two years ago went to a hurricane very similar to us um and so they shared some of their experiences and some of the pitfalls and some of everything that they've had to do in over the last two years um so a lot of the presentation so I would encourage you to go watch that that so you can see what happens if you don't follow uh what Denise is going to go through next you can see what the consequences are and then hopefully that'll give you a better understanding of why we're going to have again more potentially not so good news because we have again more Hoops that we have to jump through to make sure that we can maintain our insurance rating anyway make sure you watch the video it's an hour and a half long I know it's long they'll be well worthy time thank you thank you Denise Anderson interim director for community development good evening mayor and Commissioners so this is um following a discussion we had last week we said that we would bring this back to you this is primarily focused on discussion of the our the look back period whether the options that we have in order to comply with Community rating system and the nfip program so for the benefit of those who may not be familiar the national flood insurance program was passed in 1968 and significantly expanded in the 70s it provides access to federally backed flood insurance and nfip um participation is a prerequisite for flood insurance renewal or new issuance Federal Mortgage insurance and guarantees and FEMA grants and loans for businesses and residents for flood losses the community rating system is a voluntary program and it requires Community participation in the nfip communities enrolled in the CRS or points for voluntary activities that mitigate or prevent flood losses and there are effectively 10 classes is in the rating system the city is currently enjoying being at a level six so as a level six uh class rating it does equate to a 20% discount on flood insurance premiums this is effectively $355 per policy holder um any reduction in that class level so if we were to elevate to a class seven we would lose 5% of that discount increasing policies $89 a year so what does that actually sort of mean if we lower our standards so we're going to be talking about what happens if we lower our standards or we have higher standards what are the pros and cons of those actions that you may consider if we lower our standards there would be reduced compliant costs and and perhaps social implications related to affordability to stay and live here and faster reoccupancy potentially higher standards yield future resiliency so if we were to receive another you know experience another one of these storms if we had higher standards and people built to those higher resilient levels we would see less damage or impacts it would also increase safety and ultimately lower flood insurance rates so I'll talk about our current standard and I um as always have my in-house expert here senior planner Brandon Barry to talk through some of those particulars so the complicated questions will be handled by him um we also have Luke Curtis with us he's our building official so the current um code of ordinances section 9835 provides a 5-year look back um for substantial Improvement and substantial damage so this is the combination of repair reconstruction rehab alteration or addition to a building or structure taking place over a 5-year period however because this was passed in July of 2021 we currently are only looking back to that date in which that look back period became effective so basically 3 years in a few months is the period that we're looking at if the structure has sustain sustained substantial damage and we'll talk a little bit about that of course as we go on any repairs are considered substantial Improvement regardless of actual repair work perform there are a couple of things that are provided as National exemptions or exclusions if you will one of them is if we have a minimal or minimum Health sanitary and safety code violations to ensure public health and safe living conditions and there's a a carve out for historic structures so they do not need to comply with um with these Provisions so long as what they do maintains their historic status currently the St Pete Beach specific data the Standalone cost of storm shutters impact resistant Windows Doors Machinery elevation and the like those hardening activities or basic general maintenance repair are currently Exempted within that look back period And there's some benefits to that so what are our potential options so we could have no enforcement of substantial Improvement in damage we could look at a no look back period uh we could look at a one-year look back period with no exclusions or we could look at a five-year look back period with current exclusions so um forgive me it looks like um some updates were not brought into this slide but um we have looked at um option three and option four is currently on the book so option three was discussed in December at a commission meeting and passed on first reading and the direction was provided at that time to have a community discussion and involve I believe um our property appraiser in that discussion before taking that forward so that is something that the state has vetted and and approved if you will as a possible option for us to consider anything else that we may do would have to go likely have to go back to the state for consideration so what does it mean if we modify the look back period so we can pass stricter requirements within the Frameworks of the nfip and CRS programs we can perhaps not lenient is the term but if we were to soften those requirements um other than option three which has been vetted we would have to go back to the state and get that approval so that would perhaps add a little bit of time to this discussion so I'm going to go through in detail and if you'd like to talk about each option before we move move on to the next happy to do so this your discretion uh so option one so what does that mean if we were to have no enforcement of the rule um it would be below the minimum standard we would likely be suspended and and ultimately removed from the nfip this is the situation that um other communities around Florida have been experiencing Cape Coral I think got pretty close although surprisingly So based on the information they shared with us but those are real consequences um what that suspension would mean is that it basically would be the inability for any Resident in the special flood Hazard area which is St P Beach is comprised about 99% of the structures here are in that area they would be unable to obtain a federally backed loan they would be uh unable to renew or um or get new flood insurance and they would get no FEMA grant or loan assistance Avail available effectively what that would do to the real estate market is make it a cash Market you would not be able to sell and you would not be able to purchase because you would not be able to get flood insurance so unless you're and a mortgage holder would require that of course so this would have very very significant negative implications not only to the city uh but to Residents and businesses as well because it would impact their ability to get SBA Loans and the like so uh we could talk about option one or I can move on to option option two I'll move on to option two so option two um this is permit by permit assessment a um really what this addresses is daisy chaining I guess is the better term here so um it is the standard that was in place prior to July of 2021 it was a one-year look back period with no exclusions no exemptions if you will so it does not allow phasing uh but each project must produce a wholly habitable structure is the language that was that is there but what that means now given what's occurred today is clearly most properties would have to fully permit and complete their project in order to have that fully H inhabitable structure or habitable structure um it would award no points for the CRS and we would lose 20 points that we currently enjoy in our current uh look back provision so some of the pro Pros is that it may reduce cost of compliance for homeowners and businesses um especially those who've recently renovated or and are subject to the fiveyear look back which is again three and a half years is it does not significantly limit future improvements the owner may need to make either mandatorily or electively the cons however is that it reduces the number of structures being made compliant with flood plane management requirements and thus it it extends the period of time in which we become as a community more resilient or that a home perhaps becomes more resilient and it may result in higher flood insurance premiums so moving on to option three I have a question on two yes ma'am um what was our CRS rating prior to 2021 when we made the change to from permit to permit to five that's a great question I wasn't here and I'll ask Brandon to answer that or do you know we were still in a class six still at a six yeah we're we're currently 56 points into the class six so thank you it's a good question so option three is um excuse me option three is the onee look back with no exclusions so this is recommended by by staff in December of 2014 it reduces the 5year look back to one year but it would eliminate all of those hardening exclusions maintenance and repair that are listed there so equipment change outs hardening um impact windows and the like it would award no points for the CRS uh again it could be um you know affect our rating over the long term otherwise the standards are the same as what I share with you in option two so the pros of this is it's sort of a middle option if will allows improvements for non-compliant structures with fewer risks or unintended consequences uh it eliminates exclusions um which basically allows you to um meet requirements over time perhaps although that might be a little bit more difficult again because of the nature of the damage that we see in our community um and it's easier for us to manage from a staff perspective and less error prone the cons are that it can cause challenges for homeowners with low structure values and we'll talk specifically about that that challenge and you'll not we won't earn any CRS points we'll lose 20 points in fact so um and then there's option for I have another question on three of course um is there an option to the one-year look back with hardening exclusions there is I believe that would have to go back to the state I don't know what that would mean in terms of points loss do you happen to know Brandon so we only earn three uh sorry 20 points for this standard based on how it is currently included in the code so we would not lose more than 20 points it's a it's a very small fraction of what it takes to move a level up or down so so you're saying we could do that we in theory we could so any anything more lenient than the options being presented would need to be evaluated by the state we have option four is our current adopted standard and option three has been vetted and approved by the state pending local adoption if we were to make anything more lenient even within the standard itself we would just need to run that by them and how long does that consideration typically take currently they have you know space to to review our ordinance we spoke with the um one of the consultants for FEMA a few days ago and they said that there were pending ordinances in place but I would expect it to be a a few weeks to a month thank you so um option four when we look at pre-structured data pre-firm structured data excuse me what we see these are homes built um prior to June 1971 I asked Brandon to look at what does that mean in terms of percentage of structures within our city and that's about 77% of the structures within our cities now some of them may have substantially improved in our client but when we look at the the original uh structure date about 77% of the structures within the city are pre firm and so uh the other data that I'm showing you here is the the average 50% so um so the average of 112,000 that meant the juster market value listed on the Property Appraiser's website would be approximately $125,000 or $225,000 50% of which is $2,487 uh the median there is 91 when we have because we have the current exemptions for hardenings we're we're promoting resiliency and those exemptions really do not impact those however in improvements Renovations new kitchens new bathrooms additions those things if they were completed within the last three and a half years those would be against the the 50% rule rule if you will but it is something to consider the vast majority of the structures on this island are pre-firm and are captured in this data in terms of average or median uh 50% available to them so um because we're talking about the the pros and cons of the nfip program and the rating system what we can do if we do make modifications to the current look back there are some mitigating things that we can do to add points back in so that we're assed to retain our rating or perhaps even improve it over time so we'll talk about that so we're currently 56 points away from falling into a class seven if we lose that 20 points as we've been talking about that would potentially put us at risk because the CRS system does occasionally reevaluate their point system and make adjustments um we could uh as I said re-evaluate um or they could reevaluate and we could be at risk but there are some things that we could do that I think in particular could be um reasonable to consider the first one being the increase in required free board so my understanding from our permit administrator is that the vast majority of conforming structures newly built in the last several years have indeed been within they have to be of course uh at design flood elevation which is one foot free board vast majority are constructing 3 feet and above so we could increase that requirement to 3 feet and gain significant points which may actually help us get to the next level if I'm understanding correctly one question just aight is that just new construction that would be new construction and keeping in mind that if we have substantially damaged homes that must Elevate we would then require that as well the the additional free board so if if what is is a primary concern for you is assuring that we maintain our rating there's some mitigation tactics we could consider so just wanted to bring them out and that could be a significant one in terms of points we could uh reduce the substantial Improvement threshold to 49% or less uh I don't believe that we would recommend that necessarily if we had a city-wide Coastal a Zone um if I understand correctly Brandon I'm going to look at you again but having a Citywide azone is um prohibitive if you will in terms of cost of construction it's deeper piling deeper foundations um so but that does generate points for CRS so we're presenting that here and then we could adopt the pelis county vulnerability assessment um as part of our requirements so again pros and cons of mitigation uh tactics tenise can you explain what that number four is what that does entail I will ask Brandon to do that because I haven't had a chance to even look at that assessment okay sorry what did I do so those are more locally focused maps that were made by the county back in 2021 they take into account more storms and more local events than the FEMA Maps take into account and what that actually means in terms of impact Citywide is that typically we have smaller gradients to floods zon throughout the city and generally the raate raise the flood map level by about a foot to uh 2 feet everywhere throughout the city so and that that was part of the ordinance that was presented by staff back in December last year the request was to adhere to those Maps when they're a stricter standard than the FEMA Maps which is which is most of the time in our city how often do those Maps change I don't know if there's a Planned update cycle for them um I know that the FEMA Maps change typically once every 20 years or so I I could check with the county on that uh and again so the pros and cons here so the pros are that these you know if we were to utilize some of these mitigation tactics they would support long-term safety and resiliency and they can improve our class rating helping us earn points that are uh for things that are largely being completed like the 3-ft free board as an example so the cons of course are the increased compliance cost particularly for new substantially improved developments in the coastal areas because as I mentioned that's deeper pilings and deeper foundations and all options cumulatively increase required l living level height several feet producing taller structures that uh potentially require additional zoning encroachments such as stairs coming out the front door as an example so I'll be happy to take any questions Luke as I mentioned is here he's our building official as is Brandon thank you I should preface this by saying what we're looking for tonight is Direction about what you would like us to craft if anything in terms of changes to our current look back period thank you m Mar um yeah I do have a question I um I believe when I watched that uh question and answer session that Cape Coral City of Cape Coral hosted there there was a a brief comment um made that one of the things they did was that they they broke off substantial Improvement permits from substantial damage improvements permits so that that so that they were separate so neither one could be more than 50% but they weren't added together um it is does do does anyone from staff have any comment on the the feasibility of doing that or if that's an option good evening Luke Curtis building official for the city uh so in FEMA documents it compiles them both together uh if you look at the definition for substantial Improvement it says in the description also includes substantial damage so all that money is is looked at together so it's a combination of both if there's improvements made uh that valuation is factored in along with the damage so altogether if it hits that 50% threshold then it's substantially Dam damaged okay thank you commissioner Robinson I actually had the same question because I thought it was specific to our flood plane um ordinance that's what I got out of that ticket Cape Coral as well so um I didn't know if it was actually a FEA or if it was ours no that's that's a FEMA definition now I don't know Cape Coral's um ordinances if they broke something down uh by definition I'm not sure I'd have to look at their ordinances sorry thank you commissioner Riki oh gosh um and luk you might want to stay up at the podium um and I read I read the guy book for um FEMA and substantial Improvement and substantial um damage so I I do recognize that they they even wrote that once the structure is substantially damaged you are basically going to have to improve the home right so that's probably why they lumped this together because the idea is that you're damaged enough that you are requiring Improvement right now my question is on substantial damage do they not recognize or do they recognize that it goes back to an event because we have in this city had multiple events not as big as the ones lately um but some neighborhoods have experienced damage with ETA um with the Dalia in our city um and have made improvements um or corrected a repair damage now they're repairing damage again um and and one of those events um definitely was within the 2021 period right when when we started with the Delia specifically Ed was 2020 um so in that case does it go back to the event because they have made repairs for Adalia and now there's new repairs to be made but that's part of that 50% that that they had in the past so does it go to the event or the total or is there something the city can put in whether it's our ordinance or procedures to help people in those situations so where we have that cumulative look back period which started in July of 21 anything whether it's improvements or damage that happened from that point forward it would all be included so like for example in recent weeks we've had two storms so we wouldn't look at the two storms separately it's all together so going back in time through that time period back to July of 21 if there were other damages or other improvements it's every everything in that time period that would be factored in so regardless of the event but now do you know if FEMA recognize I thought I heard even in the Cape Coral presentation that they emphasized that it was to the event yeah um I don't recall hearing I didn't listen to the whole uh webinar but I can I can listen to that and I can get back to uh if you don't have that answer just I would like an answer and maybe from from female because it's hard to make decisions not knowing really what they're looking at because the city might be looking at a 5-year look back a one-year look back but if FEMA is only looking or is looking at the event then um I just want to make sure that that's what we're doing I can get clarification on that and I can let everybody know okay thank you there's also a if you've had multiple losses there's additional money available if you had if you have multiple repetitive so so you know we've had three flooding events in the last 15 or 16 months so if you are in one of low-lying homes that got hit three different times there are additional resources available for those that Fe that is the ICC provision within the nfip program so if your home is declared or structure is declared substantially damaged once that um declaration has been made you have 60 days to apply for the additional 30 ,000 that is specifically to help offset the cost of compliance with elevating to flood plane and that's that's the same thing for repetitive um floods or for single event damage right same provision so those with repetitive events per se right would be able to apply for assistance possibly right even if we didn't have a federally declared disaster so if we were looking at ETA and idalia a couple of years ago because those are two times that that's happened you likely would have been able to apply for that if you were looking to elevate the structure above the flood plane at that time you could get an additional $30,000 under that provision and you just said and and not having to be declared right because cor weren't declared as a city back then since it wasn't the whole city that is correct so it's a it's a repetitive flood loss provision so you have can show evidence of repetitive flood and and suffer damage as a result there is that provision there's also the provision about substantially damaged which is what we're largely talking about following Helena Milton okay another question and Luke not that's why I said to please stay because this is this is um I guess I'm permitting and when people go in and and only have experience on this because I I I live in a neighborhood that got flooded repeatedly so um all are all structures right now regardless of whether you're pre-firm or post firm required to fill that the FEMA 50% substantial Improvement or damage regardless that's a good question so if the structure is compliant with the flood regulations then the FEMA packet wouldn't need to be uh filled out uh but sometimes in order to determine if the the structure is in conformance we would need to see the elevation certificate for it so for example if if we have a house that is questionable when it was built or we don't have plans for it we can't look at the elevations on the plans if somebody has the elevation certificate to show the levels of the first living floor then we could see if it's conforming to the regulations or not but if it is lower than those required levels then it would be required it this non-conforming and we would need that FEMA packet So currently regardless of a pre-firm post firm you you requested from from the building department just to verify right yeah just to solidify we had uh there was one property in question today looking at the structure it appears to be uh elevated to the required uh elevation it looks like it's garage underneath but the height is in question I don't know what it is we don't have a an elevation certificate for this one in particular so we would need that elevation certificate from the property owner to make that determination is it compliant or not and what's the do you know what the I'm sure you do the a requirement for a home of that it it depends on where in the city so depends on the flood zone in the flood maps uh it ranges from a I think the the lowest one is an ae7 uh and then it ranges goes up to well out on along the W you know closer to the water we have ve1 and ve2 so it just depends on where exactly in the city the property is located but if if somebody is questioning what um flood zone they're in then please feel free to reach out to the building department we can answer that easily okay um I don't know if this is a question for you but you are our administrator right for flood flood management so this might be your question um are you requesting from um the state or sorry not the state from pelis County pellis Property Appraiser for um the predate of the storm um for eval for valuation um and this is something too I did hear even in in the Cape Coral um meeting um one of the recommendations was to contact your your appraiser and request for the DAT prior to the storm for all homes to be evaluated to to change the number because we I mean I've looked at some random homes some people have 60,000 some people have 40,000 you know so they're extremely low um I know we can get a property of praise but does it help for the county to do that for us um so if you go to the property appears website on any property now if when you get into condos it it's or multif family units then it gets a little bit more questionable as far as how it's broken down but as far as a single family home you can go to the property appraiser and then on the right hand side there's tools you click on that and you it'll show you the a female letter they call it a female letter but that'll tell you what the the structure value is and what the 50% rule is now just keep in mind too so property appraiser is going to depreciate the value of the property to give the property owner and break on taxes so that helps on one side but hurts on the other side but if you get a a licensed appraiser to create an appraisal for the property and it's a specific appraisal it the intended users would be the property owner and the city and then the intended use would would be for substantial uh substantial Improvement substantial damage or the FEMA 50% rule if people say that to the uh appraiser they'll know exactly what that is and then they can form that and sometimes it's substantially more than what penel county has factored now now my question is though and and I understand all that I've I've done that multiple times so I understand it but I also know the number hasn't changed since I originally did it in 2021 so my question is and you might not have the answer so if someone could ask and find out if changing the date to the date prior to the event helps the residents because there is a close to maybe $600 $700 to get an adjuster to come out and you know and estimate it but it might be helpful if we already had that number to the current um because I don't know how often the property appraiser changes it or who's in charge of what year it's done is it done after a tax year is it done before a tax year again when the last time I've looked my number has been the same since 2021 yeah I the date is automatic when you click on that tool it defaults to today's date but that doesn't mean that that's what it's reflective of so and and just keep in mind too the the save our homes cap might limit how much that goes up I'm sure that's attached to it um um so you know they that tool is has been in place for years so that people's taxes don't go up uh by a large amount so that is also holding that back too um so but I can look into uh penel County to see if that's something that they can update to a more realistic up-to-date number and I can let everybody especially because the the city manager from Cape Coral was one of the and I think that was the IND it might have been the building official from Cape Coral I would have to look back gave that as a recommendation I'll look into that someone else can go out I'll look for more questions now the the trim notice has just went out from pelis County so they should have the most upto-date assessments um and then when they do the calculation for FEMA 50/50 they use the fair market value not the adjusted value right so there's there's two two different values that when you look at your tax bill one of them will say this is what we think your house is worth in today's market so let's call it a million right but because you bought the house in 1985 for $200,000 and you were capped at 3% increase for the last TW you know 30 years your actual assessed value in the property might be $350,000 the FEMA 50/50 is based on the market value is that correct correct there there are three numbers that you'll see when you go to the Property Appraiser's website the first you described is the sales comparison value that's what the property appraiser assumes that the pro the property could be sold for and that includes amenities location things like that are factored in then there's the assessed value which as you said that's capped that's where your homestead exemptions are applied Etc and that's what how you pay your property tax so that's how the millage is factored against the assessed value the just or market value is what the FEMA 50% rule is and that presumes that it's the rebuild cost of the structures on the property which of course again that you go get that appraised and yeah so you can get a an appraisal specifically to deal or to address this issue yes you can and that will then give you the cost for example to rebuild a structure or to improve the structure or or if you've had an appraisal done in the last year so we can accept an appraisal up to one year old so if you've recently bought a home as an example you went through an appraisal process there should be a carve out for the structure itself and an applied value for that we can accept that as well um but yeah most appraisers now certainly are aware um and are doing these all the time and they're doing a structure specializ Bea appraisal on the structure thank you commissioner mahalan I have have uh not surprisingly a number of questions um I may end up shotgunning here and I may end up uh uh some of them may appear redundant but I want to be certain that I cover them first of all uh while I wasn't going to mention this um what commissioner RIS Nikki and um the uh building inspector was speaking about that's called The quickpi Tool I didn't know if I heard anybody's say that or not but that right hand corner drop down is called the Quick Pick Tool uh and the Very left corner of that box is called the FEMA letter so that's where you can find what the county says that your structur is worth uh just one observation I I I have to believe we're talking about four options and sometimes when you start getting too many options gets mind numbing a little bit but um just my opinion I would have to believe option one is not an option for the residents of the city u based on our demographics I would not believe that our citizens would not want to have the flood insurance program available to them it would be catastrophic to the real estate market for sure among other things right so that's not a personal observation that's an observation for the what I believe to be the democratics of our city and where people are so uh I I would just throw that out there um if we assume that we would want to move forward with 20231 13 and I'm not personally assuming that I'm just guessing that there's I know there's consideration for it uh shouldn't we confirm in writing with femur that based on the first reading that it won't be SE seen as an effort to Skirt the Rules by passing it moving forward um it's had its first reading uh so I have I have heard people tell me that if it had his first reading that it probably should pass muster with FEMA um those of us that are really paying attention understand that we don't want a FEMA audit we don't want any government audit like anybody that's ever dealt with them doesn't want a government audit um I I don't know if that's an attorney question I I don't know if that's a question for you Mr Anderson or for who it's for but um I I do think it's a question that needs to be answered um is femur going to say that yes you had a first reading so you're okay if you do a second reading and pass this so if Mr Brooks would like to answer that question great I know Brandon has had some significant conversations and can jump in as well where I push it's on okay my first time um so FEMA actually doesn't review them they have a contract uh through the division of Emergency Management at the State of Florida and they have a consultant that reviews proposed flood plane management regulation ordinances and I think talking to Brandon earlier they reviewed some of our ordinances and Brandon can you give the details on that they had reviewed that ordinance you're referencing back in December we could always run it by them again to make sure that the standards are still able to move forward for second final rating but they did the department of um Emergency Management did look back in December over the ordinance now that did carry some higher requirements than just the one year with the exceptions removed uh we did include an additional foot of freeboard as a requirement the county maps were set as the standard when they were at the higher standard and substantial Improvement was reduced from 50 to 49% so there were higher standards that were included that didn't have just to do with the look back period uh they they're pertinent to it but not necessarily tied in with that that look back period but that they did look that over and they did give us a blessing to move forward on it okay couple things there so fed Dead uh the Florida Division of Emergency Management reviewed it or FEMA re reviewed it or if Florida reviews it FEMA will accept it I I didn't understand that FEA doesn't review it FEMA says you do it's our job but then they also have the division of Emergency Management at Florida that will review it and they help us decide whether what we're doing is going to impact the fuma's CRS point system okay understand and I did read that but thank you I want a clarification on that but you also indicated um because I I didn't see that as part of that ordinance the freeboard you'd mentioned freeboard Mr Barry yes uh and I'm going to talk more about freeboard the three-foot freeboard as opposed to one foot freeboard um but was what the state approved on the first reading did that include three feet of free board or did it include one feet one foot a free board with the 10- foot base elevation no it was we our current requirement and this is a Statewide requirement it's part of the Florida building code is is one foot of free board we had proposed two feet of free board as part of the 2023 ordinance that was reviewed last December and that was included as part of that evaluation we discussed in in the staff report three feed that is the maximum number of Feed in which we receive additional points through the community rating system system so that's why that was addressed there what we had sent to the state had been 2T okay so just to be clear if for some reason two weeks two months down the road we pass uh whatever ordinance it is from December of 2023 that that will be 10- foot base and two foot of freeboard so the the base is going to vary throughout the city uh different neighborhoods are affected different um B Vista based on the graphics and the report went up by about 2 feet that was just used as an example some areas it's 1 foot some areas it's two and two and change so it does vary throughout the city the county maps are a little bit more robust and granular than the FEMA Maps which have a a larger area that they can consider on the map so it it it's it's variable it's not going to be set across any of the neighborhoods okay thank you I'll I'll have a little bit more on that here in just a moment though thank you you can find that in your agenda packet at page n or page 20 of 115 if you want to see it okay you've got that ordinance in there uh on page seven we talk about historic districts that met all criteria for historic deserv designation pre storm um what about historic um or or residents that are in historic districts presently and we're eligible on the day before the storm but we're not designated as his historic residences do we get crossed up with FEMA if we allow those residents to submit a request to be designated historic based on one day before the storm and again I'm going to ask Brandon to address this because he's most familiar with historic structures as well just stay up here Brandon in a there you go that's a great question and that's something we're looking into we typically and I I've spoken with the state about this the state's historic preservation office there have been cases in which historic structures have been completely reconstructed and still considered a local historic resource um the local resource designation is what gives them that protection and the ability to receive a FEMA Parian I I do want to see clarification from them on that but based on our discussions I believe that if the restoration preserves the structure as historic they would be eligible for that and we're we're looking into that for the next historic board meeting I think what commissioner if if I'm correct in what you were asking is if they did not have the designation four weeks ago could they apply for the designation today receive the designation and all the benefits correct and us not get in trouble with female correct correct correct so so FEMA is looking at and and their sole criteria that's established in the substantial damage definition is that the historic structure whether it the damage the um repairs would otherwise considered substantial or not that it doesn't preclude the structure as a historic resource that's the one consideration the one sentence in that definition so that's what they are going to be looking at I think the effect would be more with our historic district and with our historic preservation ordinance in general because we are much stricter than that we do require a FEMA variance process rather than just an administrative process so I have I have reached out to the state we're going to be having conversations about that I don't think it's the designation of the structure uh the concern with staff and what I'm looking into is whether if a structure were not in the local registry if it were to be substantially damaged now the property owner wants to restore to the way it was prior to the event would that keep the structure eligible for FEMA variants um I I don't believe it's an issue if it's designated After the Storm but I do think I I just want to get that clarification that if it was substantially damaged if the facade was significantly modified um would would that make them eligible I don't have an answer for that yet so just so I'm clear and I know you don't have an answer so any residents that is currently within a historic district uh that was significantly damaged uh there is a reasonable possibility that they may after the fact be able to apply for historic deserv or designation um based on the fact that they are in a historic district and they meet all the criteria of being a historic structure correct that that's that's a good possibility the the minimum standard is that the structure is at least 50 years old that it hasn't been dramatically altered in a way that removes its historic Integrity those are the two basic requirements many of the structures out in passor girl they have a head start start because we've already completed survey of that area and we have the Florida Master site files that go through the details they've done all that research we do have a couple historic structures outside of Pastor gril a couple in the Don CeSar neighborhood that have gone through that process and they're just as eligible for feema variances as a property down in pasor Grill we just already have that data for the pastor Grill neighborhood but um there are many structures that are on the local registry currently they're eligible for application for a FEMA variant and we're just looking in to make sure that those that took on storm damage are still still eligible to be designated after the fact and can be restored prior to the um prior to the event okay uh I mean obviously that's not going to help everybody but hopefully that can come just because you're on the historic so we I don't ask it after to follow and an add to the question we have two neighborhoods that were current this is not something new and you probably I know you're familiar uh Brendan with the Donar neighborhood in Bel Vista who were currently I think at the final stage I know in November we were supposed to have a presentation um from Lyn Rosetti on the status of the survey for historic designation for those two neighborhoods so because that was in the books prior to this event um are we going to ask for those neighborhoods as well you know not having the presentation not knowing where we are even though I know was probably favorable for them um can they locally designate as well we did send those off to the state right before hel um so those are in transit they're probably being recorded there were hundreds of course so you know it takes some time to get those recorded but they would be just as eligible as passag Grill it's not the passag grill overlay that in allows for that it's the fact that our requirements are they be in the Florida inventory which the completion of those Master site files is that part of it and then they decide to locally designate now in doing that if someone receives a fem ofar variant they need to remain on the registry for the life of the the structure so any kind of significant exterior alterations those are always going to need to go to the historic preservation board until the home is torn down we don't currently have any limitations on demolition they can tear the home down if they like but anything that improves that structure does need to remain on the life if they get that FEMA Varian but like you said the the structures that were added to the inventory in the Don cazar and belvista they'd be eligible just like in pass gril once we get those recorded so page four uh we talk about the recommendation or the support for changing the free board from 10+ 1 to 10 + three I think this is probably Mr Sanderson but I'm not certain um do we do we have any idea what the number of residents that would be negatively affected by changing uh the free board from one to three uh is there any data or information on that to my knowledge there is no data on that the only data that I have is that the structures built since 2019 I believe was the date we have seen the vast majority nearly every structure built at three foot freeboard or above 2019 correct but what about structures that were built between 1971 and 2018 unfortunately we don't have ready access to that data and that would require a little bit of research and how would that impact potentially the three-foot free board from a individual flood insurance perspective of let's say hypothetically somebody has s foot of um current flood plane base flood plane uh so with the current um ordinances uh they are 4 foot short so they are paying a premium on their flood insurance for that 4 foot 3 + one uh but if we change that to 10 + three which makes that s plus whatever that number is five those individual properties insurance is going to go up relatively significantly because they are going to be paying a greater premium based on the fact that they are now 50% over the base flood as opposed to 25% over the base flood and I'm just using round numbers here I don't know how to answer that question because I must admit I not that familiar with how those calculations are made um again Brandon may know he's sort of our expert on this and Luke has a great deal of familiarity as well yeah and and I'm not trying to play gotcha I'm just you know this is a very complex situation and before we rush into making some decision here which you know personally I would like to you know make a quick decision that's the best decision um but there's a lot of downside to making the wrong decision here and I think these are things that we need to consider um so please don't think I'm trying to put you on the spot on this I'm just like you trying to get answers of of course and and I'm not feeling that way at all and I think to your point we're in this awful moment right now where you all are being tested with making really difficult choices and we're trying to bring to you the best information available to us at the time recognizing that you know the direction we get tonight it's going to require some additional research so that when we come back with a crafted ordinance and maybe where we're at given this discussion is we need to do some more research before you can provide that guidance and that's certainly Fair um in terms of time unfortunately because of the requirements of FEMA this is a lengthy process for our residents these FEMA packets are required U for most structures as you know so if you're non-conforming which is many you know many structures in the city FEMA packet will be required and then must be evaluated so there it's unfortunate for the residents um but that does indeed give us a little bit of time to step carefully and thoughtfully through this process which is certainly the the hope that we all have so since you mentioned the FEMA packages uh and I still do Mr Mayor have more questions if you tell me I need to speed it up please let me know um so the fee of package is there's a 50% rule I think everybody generally gets the concept of that whether we wanted to or not I think everyone gets it um but typically any construction project uh you you generally at least if you're a smart person budgeting you have to anticipate that there may be overages so when a FEMA package is submitted and whatever let's just use $100,000 that somebody has $100,000 to to work with um is there a margin that needs to be built into the FEMA package as a responsible resident or as a responsible City to understand that we don't want somebody to end up out of compliance because because of of an of an overage MH so is there any 5% 6% 10% planned overage to prevent an overage and if there is an overage what happens I'm not aware of any regulatory concessions as it relates to overage meaning FEMA regulatory concessions the the number is the number Luke and I did talk briefly earlier today how we would have to evaluate the FEMA packages for validity fraud fairness Etc so I'd like him to chime in yeah well so just as far as the FEMA package itself at the towards the very bottom of the form there is a required 10% contingency so that's factored into that package so if the total project is $100,000 then it it's looking for a $10,000 contingency in there I mean at the end of the day you know people are working off quotes that they get from a contractor sometimes those numbers fluctuate hopefully they don't fluctuate up but um you know so should something be uncovered then we would need a a revision to that if there's if there's changes in that in that 10% contingency is eaten up so okay so you answered my initial question but now there's a followup so if I'm the homeowner and I'm allowed $100,000 based on the femur 50% rule and my estimate is 90% but that 90% is grossed up to 100% because of the 10% overage Factor what if I at the end of the day end up at $110,000 am I now other compliance and am I not granted an occupancy permit or a final inspection permit because I'm now outside the FEMA rules and that's where this FEMA packet is crucial uh it's crucial for the contractor or the homeowner if the homeowner is acting in the capacity of a contractor it's crucial for those numbers to be as accurate as they can be and to manage the project as you go uh and then it's also crucial on our part to make sure that those numbers are realistic uh in the past I've seen uh female packages that are that come across and they're not realistic and and as the building official as a plans Examiner by Florida building code we have to evaluate these numbers to make sure that they are realistic to the market today and it's it's not always easy but uh we do the best that we can with it and it but it is it can be difficult to manage from both a contractor and a homeowner and plans examiner perspective so what you're telling me is is that there's checks and balances there's a homeowner there's a contractor and there there's a city which is great but if the checks and balances fail what happens to the homeowner if those checks and balances fail so if the project exceeds at 50% then it's substantially damaged or substantially improved and then it would be required to be made compliant and how does that happen after they've spent the money I and once again there's too much noise in the bag I couldn't hear I apologize I you're the messenger I'm you know I'm just trying to sort through this for people to to help us all understand it so does that mean the homeowner at that point is out $110,000 and still has to tear down their house wor absolute worst case scenario that that possibility is there and and again so part of the part of the issue is is you know we have to look at the whole picture so we have permits trickling in for parts of projects uh and unfortunately I have to hold back on those until I can get the whole picture of the project that's going on because the last thing that I want to do is approve a a roof permit for a structure that could potentially be substantially damaged because I don't want to have somebody dumping money into a project potentially that could be substantially damaged so that would be look bad on us as a city and it would be very bad on the property owner for obvious reasons so we're trying to make sure that we go through this with a fine tooth comb to make sure we're doing this accurately and I I I I have no doubt any of that's going to happen and I appreciate that and I I just I want people to understand that you know be cautious uh I I just you know I I don't want to sit here and let people think that you know this is going to go perfectly they just need to be paying attention if they're that close to the numbers they need to be very very cautious and that's you know you've answered my questions and and and I appreciate it and just wanted people to know so on just on that on that same note if you don't mind so just with with the FEMA package right when you submit when you submit it and it's lengthy it's it's very long it's very detailed and you have to fill out a scope of the work that's going to be done I mean you're going to put in drywall baseboards kitchen cabinets you item your contractor has to itemize everything that they're going to do with dollar values on the side of it right and we have General guidelines where we know okay drywall is going to be x amount per square foot baseboards are going to cost x amount per linear foot kitchen cabinets are roughly going to be about this much and so on so our building officials can use that and see if somebody is you know lowballing it to make you fit into that FEMA guideline line or if or if the bid actually looks legitimate the other component of that is your contractor has to sign a notorized affid I don't remember what the penalties were but they are severe if they lie on that so that actually also works in your favor right because when they are submitting their package for roughly 90% plus the 10% overage to keep you under that 50% you know that is another excuse me if you'll please turn off you cell phones thank you um and that that's also another layer of protection for you the homeowner because you should have at that point you know if if I was doing it I would have a contract with that contractor that says here's the scope of work you're going to do and this is the the amount that we're agreeing to I think where the danger is for some people might be if you start tearing out stuff and then you're finding things that would require permit on itself and then you come back to the city and you have to file an updated permit and that now kicks you over 50% I think that's where some of the danger really is more so than that overage yeah and I wasn't trying to scare anybody no no it's no but it's really important so I was simply trying to make the point is that you make sure that your contractor really understands that package and what they're signing their life away for because your contractor is going to be on the hook for it and you the homeowner also signing it as well and so make sure sure the most important part is getting that package done correctly on the front end and that's going to minimize the potential negative side effects further down the line may can ask one question or it might be multiple but um now I know we're talking about um the resident going to get permit but I I want to go to the city's responsibility um this these were big events okay like I said we had prior events ETA Adalia people went through permitting did the packet been there done that um but this is a big event and we're trying to protect the city from losing a rating from losing Insurance National flood insurance FEMA assistance and so forth so the city I'm assuming is going to be taking proactive measures in identifying properties right I think last night um um Denise you might have mentioned it might have been through common or someone asked a question about um something and you mentioned sub substantial damage and going around the city to look at properties right we I mean just myself and I'm sure all of us have driven around trying to kind of guesstimate how many properties have been damaged which I would say is more than 85% had those 18 in of water in their property and you mentioned um and I don't want to say was that mean does that mean you're deemed substantial damage and then what does that mean because a property who's working on removing stuff and possibly working on putting drywall right now um without a permit and um code enforcement starting to go out you're receiving a possible letter that says that your home has been substantially damaged D AG my question is a what does that mean and um because again people might be putting money I mean I know I you know we're putting money to just mitigate which we're told we can do that right to mitigate mold and so forth but now for replacement sure okay um what does that mean because people will start hitting above that 50% sure so I I'll briefly describe and this is a little bit repetitive for folks that were here last night so what has occurred and what is going on right now and what does that mean so immediately following Helen in particular we did 5 and a half days of windshield assessments and that assessment populated a GIS map that went to pelis County and that mapping identified affected uh damaged majorly damaged uh Etc and and we did in fact have to condemn a few structures so um in that windshield assessment we were asked to estimate the um the flood line if you will which is evidenced on the side of many of your homes what level of flood incursion you likely had in that structure we didn't enter any structures as an example unless there was a a condemnation concern so we did that um process in five and a half days with Milton it took us about a day to do that we had far less damage as you know um primarily roofs and and perhaps windows that information went to the county the county has since hired a consultant Hagerty Consulting and Hagerty has hired and deployed I believe it's a 100 inspectors to the barrier islands and Coastal affected areas the largely affected areas to do a substantial damage assessment and that assessment is based on the data that we provided to the county they are selecting all properties where there appears evidence to be 18 in or greater of water incursion and that is really that's the level of your receptacles so there's wiring involved Etc um and then they're doing a a calculation so they're identifying all of the properties they plug it into a substantial damage estimator that is nothing like what we have to do for the FEMA packet but their estimator uses sort of a multiplier based on their their known practices or their past history of practices and they will inform the city provide us a list of all of those properties that they have determined to be substantially damaged so that is a presumption of substantial damage we will not we will then immediately notify all property owners that there's been a declaration Property Owners can appeal that DEC declaration um so again it's these are some of the things that we've been talking about you don't have to wait for that declaration to come that's in four to six weeks when they complete their work that you should expect to see a letter shortly thereafter you do not have to wait for that you can start with a FEMA packet now you don't have to wait for that determination if you get that letter and it's a there is a determination of that you can defend that one of the ways is the appraisals that we talked about um that might elevate your just value or your FEMA cap if you will or it can simply be you know you can show evidence that no you know my FEMA packet shows that I'm still below that 50% threshold and thus not substantially damaged yes sir did that answer all of your question so and I'm sorry I think the other question you ask is how many structures we have been challenged in getting that data back to us I cannot break down for you this was asked last week as well we've asked twice and still haven't gotten the data on how many of those structures did in fact we determined to be major damage affected Etc I have not gotten those numbers back so I think you already got the understanding or maybe Mr Barry did that uh I have reservations uh about changing the free board uh I I believe I heard you say that you are no longer or the city is no longer advocating for making the entire city a coastal a Zone did I understand that properly the I think we just presented a few options that were related to those those are major points awarding activities if that's something that the commission wants us to look into in more depth we did not recommend the Citywide Coastal Aid standards as part of the ordinance last year um it's not something that we were proposing for Amendment these are just significant elements that are all generally related to what was presented last year is that the same for freeboard because I got the sense that freeboard was being pushed pretty hard here the freeboard change in in terms if that's something that if that's the direction the commission would like us to take to look at lowering our CRS rating that's one of the best activities to be able to do so increasing free board to 3 feet is almost an entire level that's an additional 5% um it's that was just presented as one of the activities if that's a priority for us we we were really just soliciting feedback tonight and and I think you've gotten mine you have okay um it's already been suggested to me uh by one person that changing the freeboard or Coastal a might result in a loss suit against the city so um you know I'm not saying that a threat of a lawsuit should prevent us from doing the right thing but I have personal concerns about the freeboard and the coastal a I just think that that you know we're we're going to impact we're going to going to potentially impact people that haven't done anything to be impacted and they everybody's insurance is going to go up so um I think I've said enough on that one but thank you uh how many properties uh will be negatively impacted by the look back do we have any data on that I know we're trying to fix look back because uh there's a negative impact on a number of residents but to change an ordinance that potentially will cross us up once again with FEMA do we have any sense for I mean h how many residents will be hurt by that if we don't change that so the answer the quick answer is no um I would sus would I have to believe we can be able to pull the data from our permit system and review it to pull out that which is um those exclusion items those things that uh are repair maintenance we we should be able to pull that out and then from that of course extract those things that are U substantial improvements that have been made since 2021 so we should be able to do that and I would have that available for you at the next commission meeting do we happen to know how many properties in the city or new builds which I believe I think you said earlier 2019 forward are considered the new Builds on the single family I do know it's 85 properties 85 okay so on the just on the previous question unless they're doing exempt work if they are in the flood plane they have to complete a FEMA package cor at the time of renovation so I think to answer your question we should be able to just to tally all the FEMA packets that we've received in the last three and a half years that should give us the answer of how many people would be impacted I I took your question and correct me if I'm wrong I took your question to mean how many of those between July of 2021 and present have made substantial improvements which would reduce the 50% because it would be included in the calculation did I misunderstand no not not this question I think I may have asked that earlier but but they would have had to fill package if they did substantial Improvement so they would have had to fill out a FEMA package if they did any substantial Improvement is that correct yeah they couldn't have it's one the same yeah yeah so if if a if a property is not conforming to the flood regulations and they did work previously then yeah we would require a FEMA packet for that permit when that renovation was done so to answer commissioner mohal and we should just be able we should be able to just pull up every FEMA packet in the last three and a half years and okay here's 200 these are the people that would be impacted if we don't roll it back to one year got you yep thank you I'm sorry yes no okay and then lastly I know everybody's probably ready for me to stop talking here um and I think this ties into everything we've been talking about but it would be if there's somehow we could get some sense of shortterm and long-term impacts uh for the option two three and four um just some sense of you know we really need to know how many people we're hurting no matter which way we go and the more data that we have on that I mean we we get some input from some of the residents but there's a lot of residents that aren't as severely impacted that aren't speaking and aren't maybe paying attention as much as they need to be which we're all we have all been guilty of that at some point in our residents here in this city um so I I would just ask if there's any way we can get some kind of sense on shortterm long-term impacts for the populace in general so I appreciate uh everybody allowing me uh the time to ask these questions now this is an important conversation and I think the more we can flush it out and that's one of the reasons we have a variety of people on our commission here so that we can each contribute because you're thinking of things I haven't thought of commissioner Mary you think of things I haven't thought about um I'm thinking at at this point if if you all are agreeable I would say we amend our agenda to move this item to a discussion item at the end and allow everyone here the opportunity to provide Their audience comments so that when we're making when we're having our discussion about this subject it'll be based on hearing from our community first would would that be agreeable okay would there be I mean unless there's any other changes from staff I mean questions for staff I do have one one quick question um and that's um Denise for you or the building official for you know for for there's properties that are going to be presumptively substantially damaged correct there's also properties that are not going to be presumptively substantially damaged and so is there any kind of equation you all are using for for somebody who comes in who's like man you know my FEMA 50% number is super high and I had 2 Ines of water in my house does that person still have to fill out the whole FEMA packet and have the same level of of uh of detail being looked at on their building permit indeed they do Under A F of Regulation so if they're a non-conforming structure so if they're not already above the flood plane they would have to fill it out if they are seeking any kind of repair okay and then one last question is is there any I know that um the building official said that you know there's you you don't want to start giving out peace meal permits to people for little parts and then have that number add up too high at the end but for for folks who you know we still have a lot of people who are just getting back into town or haven't gotten back into town to even look at their properties yet and are finding out that their that their electrical meter on their house was submerged and they have no power at their house and what they really want to do is be able to like get the power on so they can plug in dehumidifiers is there any you know is there is there any like kind of health and safety like clause for being able to issue a permit for something like that that allows them to to be able to start mitigating their house without doing the whole FEMA packet because they don't even know what the damage is yet they don't even know if they need to hire a a contractor or you know so were you sitting in our office earlier because we had this conversation so I'm going to put Luke on the hot seat for that one so that exact same scenario came up today uh Resident was saying the exact that scenario he uh had damag image to uh the electrical service but he didn't have any power there to to perform any evaluation or to try to dry it out so um initially it was it was pushed back because we didn't have the FEMA packet he came in and and I don't want to say pled his case but but explained the scenario and I it made perfect sense so but I I made it clear that okay so I'm I'm comfortable releasing this permit and it was just so Sol for the um the electrical service had to be repaired so they get power back it was a a small amount but I made it clear that you know hypothetically speaking if your property is substantially damaged this could be money that that's wasted understood he was fine with it I released the permit um we're not trying to hold people back we're trying to work with them but it's just it's difficult to make a blanket statement and say well if if there's this or this then we can approve it but we're just on a case-by Case basis we're evaluating it and where we can where I can I say yes uh perfect yeah thank you very much okay thank you all right are there let's move on to the approval of the agenda besides moving the FEMA 5050 discussion to item 7B are there any other changes proposed to the agenda tonight I go ahead well you can go in order we'll go District Four and move on uh I have one Mr Mayor and we we may settle this before we get to discussion and if so I will I'm having a hard time hearing I can't hear excuse me everyone excuse me hi if you I'll please just keep it down if you want to have a conversation please step outside so that we can hear and so that you can hear us and we can hear you thank you so yes Mr Mayor I would like to add one uh to discussion although I may withdraw depending on how the discussion goes on a couple of the action items uh I would like to uh add to discussion ordinance 2024-25 D9 okay commissioner res Niki I wanted to add to the discussion um and and probably similar um to to Mr Mahal's commissioner Mahal's um comment if it's addressed already but resources to the community um uh funding and by funding meaning potential funding that that we could be helping residents um whether it's uh through FEMA state federal um and maybe any alternatives and changes um in zoning uh for homes um to help mitigate potential money so okay it might come up in discussion but okay commissioner Robinson anything um yeah I have one thing to add to uh discussion item um would be um discussing whether we can offer any sort of uh debris pickup um under our contract with aftermath you know after afterwards after we get the majority of the taken care of as far as going ahead and offering that to any of the condos HOAs that they would reimburse us for or just extending if we're getting a a big discount or anything to that effect just to help them out or and as well the businesses okay um yeah I wanted to add a discussion item um to uh to look at potentially uh reducing permit fees for homeowners during this time okay um I will add two items um we have to make a decision on what we're going to do with our Christmas events and I know this is probably not at the top of your list but we still got to make a decision on it and give staff Direction what we're doing with holiday lights events at the park we have a whole program for the whole month of December that we need to be able to tell the staff what to do with so we need to have a discussion on that and then also a um conversation on sorry discussion on maybe doing a workshop or the next Workshop that we're do in the next town hall maybe combining it with a workshop to help people navigate the FEMA applications uh especially as it relates with maybe hiring an appraiser you know and going through that process and see if that's something that we want to do okay are there any amendments any further amendments to the agenda mayor I have one Amendment I'd like to move consent item 4D to action item 5 C I just have a brief Amendment to the contract that has been provided on on the day is tonight thank you all right may I please have a motion to approve the agenda as amended I make a motion to approve the October 22nd 2024 City commission amended agenda Second City Clerk if you please do a roll call commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Robinson yes commissioner res Niki yes vice mayor mahand yes mayor patrill yes motion carries okay next we have audience comments just as a reminder for everyone um if you want to make a general audience comment not about any of the items that are on the agenda you can fill out a yellow card that is in the back and you provide that to the city clerk um we will she will call your name when she calls your name you will come to the podium you have three minutes to say what is on your mind um generally this is not a question and answer session okay we had that yesterday and we will have more of them we're going to talk about when the next one's on the schedule in a couple of weeks so at the Town Halls that's when we do General Q&A session this is your opportunity to tell us what it is that you want us to hear um you know and we want to make sure we take your comments into consideration as we make these decisions so with that city clerk chabby Crawford I know we did have several people that left so if we'll call your name once or twice if you're not here then we will move on Mr Crawford okay John kurman and Commissioners I did receive a card from another Resident um our policy that you all adopted or that was adopted by the previous commission allows for additional time for those representing an organization it does not permit donating of time from one person to another I do have a card requesting the additional time to Mr kersman but that's not a decision that I can make it's just two people wanting to talk together for six minutes Commissioners or three people talking together oh if it's two people that's three minutes each so well just fine yeah I'm fine with it okay so Mr kersman six minutes on the clock for you sir thank you and when you come up to the podium if please state your name and address thank you John kurman uh be Honda way um General discussion about the topic you know the presentation we just had you know this was a slide that I used a while back I went on the community status book report from Florida and the FEMA and we've been in class six for since 2016 and back then I said you know it's a 5% discount if we were to be able to get a better level um and you know 5% penalty if we get a little worse um and there's only 63 Community communities that are better than us in the rating system even then and the choice was to try to get to level four which would have made us the top four in the entire State being where we are as a Barrier Island I think that's a lofty goal I don't think that trying to get to a higher level to save $89 a person or two times $89 is really what we should be after right now when especially now with the hindsight of the situation people are in so trying to get one foot freeboard two foot or three foot of freeboard I think really should be something that we're not talking about instead uh what we've learned is that with the Daisy training or what we used to do which was that you know you close a permit you open a permit it didn't even get us to a better class we were class six before we're class six now it gained us nothing with regard to rating system how hard is it to then say well maybe we ought to just roll back to the the plan we had prior to the 2021 change it didn't cost it didn't gain us anything why should it cost us anything to go back to where we were um uh and then in this in this 2023 proposal it quoted things like the pelis study very bad thing to start from because first off it provided 2040 27 and 00 models and our ordinance doesn't even say which model it wants to be based on but it wants to add two feet on top of it so how do you how do you have an ordinance based on that on top of it how do you let people try to build their homes to a level and then find out that they are going to be susceptible to 50% plan over again that's essentially what's happening to me and all the people that have Built Homes between 1971 and 2023 or 2021 from what you just heard if you start changing the rules I paid extra a lot of people paid extra to get homes or to build their homes to be a Bas flood elevation it's very important you don't change the rule that then makes it that that if we have a damage I just had damage to my home if we have damage to our homes that we have to start doing FMA packets we bought our homes at the level of Bas flood elevation so we wouldn't have to do FEMA packets if we ever had to do work and I haven't had to do a FMA packet before when I need to do work I shouldn't have to do FEMA packet now when it really counts and it could mean I won't be able to rebuild my home and that's really a terrible situation to be put in now that now that my home has been you know harmed um so you know and and and if you look in the FEMA handbook it makes distinctions between significant Improvement and significant damage it says significant damage rolls into significant Improvement but it doesn't say treat them the same so what it's saying is if you have significant damage you treated a significant damage if you have significant Improvement you're applying for you consider your significant damage as part of the application for significant Improvement but it doesn't mean that just because you have significant damage the rules of FEMA that say you only can do these things you know for significant Improvement apply so for instance there's things that they say if you want to do significant Improvement for a vertical addition you follow the new design flat elevation but it doesn't say you follow the design FL that elevation for significant damage but I've had people telling me that it seems that there's confusion about that so it's very important that we read these things very carefully and don't put things in our local ordinances that aren't what fem is requiring f is not requiring significant Improvement rules to be to be put upon significant damage applications and I think that that's being lost in some of the discussions I'm hearing um and then um so so don't be changing freeboard and even our own website said no FEMA packet built if your house is built prior to 1971 or after 71 um and in the in the desktop guide it's saying when the building was constructed is what you use for significant damage and for vertical additions that's when they start getting into these splitting of the hairs grandfathering there's multiple places where they talk about grandfathering in the desktop guide do a Google search on Grand fathering FEMA flood it says that you're grandfathered not just for post firm buildings for your ratings it says that you have a administrative G grandfathering for the rules also pre-firm homes are grandfathered if you've been playing paying for your flood insurance all this time be making sure you're getting your grandfathering if you've been paying for your flood insurance all the time and there's links about that and there's flawed maps about that I've been working with the city I gave up because you know there's been a change of Staffing and I don't want to bog people down but if we're concerned about our our flood insurance ratings we need to fix our map because we have the state map that shows us having the wrong things and but by the way this is the law but here look at Noah Noah says if we go to one foot two foot and three foot I have this map shows you what houses are going to be really flooded I'll put it on the link and it's it's bad and then hurricane Ian Bonita Beach 12 surge that wasn't what even we had so I mean I'm not saying don't raise your home I'm just saying don't regulate people into a situation where they have to and then we've got to fix our own Electric System because because we're making people raise their houses and we're not even raising the Electric System that feeds them thank you thank you sir Deb shner thank you if you please state your name and address for the record Deborah shner Bas I got s Beach I do want to thank um the mayor city manager commission and the staff because our staff was exemplary in this situation there are some funding sources I'd like to see us get some of the money from last year's bed tax if it hasn't all spent already hurricane sanding HUD offered Community block grants and Disaster Recovery we're not even looking at those other funding sources right now and I don't know if the programs are still the same acronyms but the other one was cdbg-dr programs provided significant disaster Grant assistance not only to repair or replace the infrastructure and Facilities so they helped Department of interior again helped with Sandy and to clean our waterways to recover the wetlands open the water open our waterways and bolster resilience Sandy was bad but so are we because when you think it goes from clearw or maybe even above all the way down to Fort Myers that's an enormous area and I don't know if we have to get together with the other communities or what but these things are available and If we have some good people um who know how to find these grants and to get these grants I think it's something that we really need to do look Beyond just what we have here it's very very difficult because it really comes down to money to save your home which is the most precious to most people I know mine is precious to me that's where a lot of my memories are with my kids and it is clear that we we might want to ask somebody for grant money through our sewer system so funds are out there we just have to get them and you know talk I guess we have to wait till after the elections to see who's going to be the Senators and Congress people but it's really really important I think for us to look outside just panel's County and go to the federal government because they've done it before and they should do it for us thank you state your name and address for the record hi Robin Miller 699 Golf Boulevard president CEO of Tampa Bay Beach's chamber former resident of bell Vista 580 bellpoint and I want to make that very clear because before I speak um representing the business Community we do have compassion especially myself of of living on this beach and knowing what has happened so my three minutes I have a lot to say and I'm going to put it very concisely and in bullets like I typically do when I communicate um through our communication process first of all we're talking about positive progress and we're doing our best as an organization that represent your business Community to Showcase that mayor I want to thank you for calling me about one of your businesses that you love and I've spok with her and doing our best to assist her in her efforts residents we do understand what you're going through but we also realize that you need businesses to go to and have a a great experience whether it is a a cabana a restaurant or a shopping experience city manager Cory Avenue extends past Golf Boulevard and that's a part of our our debris situation which you and I have spoke about this is very hard for me um we want as a business Community we want you to know that um we need you as much as we all need each other right and walking in and out of every business small business that's on this island um some of them have opened up in a very very string capacity with walls exposed just to try to get their employees to work and and if you think about one business what e and will two of them that that's probably about 72 employees at the end of that road multiply that all the way up Golf Boulevard so we have a lot of work to do in our whole entire Community effort so we just ask as you make your decisions you think about commercial properties as well those commercial properties are not necessarily the business operators in those places and I know Mary you know what I'm saying there are landlords that may not be doing the things that they should or have the insurance they did these business owners are doing everything they can to serve you and serve their customers we are going to be down in tourism and we know that and and miss shner um yes tourism down and bed tax will be down we need to come together and understand they are a component of the decisions you make as well they are property taxpayers and in in closing I understand that you you know have a deficit you have funds you don't not have to spend but remember when you make decisions to hire people or spend legal fees those expunge out of your budget as well so please think about in the future thank you thank you no further okay there are no further audience comments in that case there's you may have had a comment for a specific item on this agenda you will be called at that time if you just have a general yeah I was just going to say I'm sorry mayor I was just going to say anyone that filled out a card that was specific to FEMA 5050 or the substantial Improvement damage I've held and we'll call you in the order received when we move to that item as the commission moved that to discussion I think what we said before was that we will hear them now oh hear them now we have apologize I'm I apologize no this way we will have those comments when we go on to the discussions side all right well then we'll continue on then my apologies thank you so Vincent tormina you will be first if you'll please state your name and address for the record yes if you if you please wait until you're at the microphone to I thought everybody could hear me on this beach uh Vincent toia 3514 Kaza Blanca Avenue St pach Florida um I just bear with me because I don't have my glasses I left them home okay I have a couple of questions to ask I don't know if they'll work but two plus I did email it to you I mean I text it to you I texted to Francis so you's got it already um I wanted to ask about the 50% Improvement timelines for the sequential permits utilizing fee calculation for the 50% improvements that's the first question and ask if any rules are being modified or waved that govern permitting for improvements within the flood plane and then the other question is what type of permits are being waved and or administra administratively approved without supporting documentation what and the last one was what types of procedural inspection are necessary to be conducted on the site and what agencies in order for us to proceed with the remediation and repair it is their documentation supporting this process that can be provided to design Professionals in order to complete documentation necessary for substantial Scopes that still require permits those other questions I have okay I think those will be best answered via the email and then generally I think some of your questions other people will have so we've posted before on the city resources what does what does not require permit but if we took one thing away from the Cape Coral conversation was everything will be scrutinized everything will require a permit even if the State of Florida says you do not require permit FEMA wants to see a permit okay okay that's not a problem um I just was Wonder CU my whole house was permitted and everything that I had done on it through the years and everything um my question is is that their ratings to rate my house and people's other houses at a low value you know when you get on that site and then you can't do more than that at today's prices I mean if someone's stuck in a closet somewhere and don't know what's going on at prices because my house is valued as buying a refrigerator let's put it that way I mean really I mean you know they got to be really so is there any going to be leadway with this stuff or anything like that I think there's a discussion item later on tonight where we're going to talk about how to use an appraisal to navigate the FEMA situation okay and my house is over 50 years old yeah so is there anything with that historical thing or in my area or anything that they're saying that this so any anything specific to your house will have to to address via email separately okay yeah because without looking it all up there's nothing okay thank you I just wanted to know thank you sir okay Beth Cole Paul Looney great if you please state your name and address for the record I am uh Paul Looney 3501 Casa Blanca Avenue here in St P Beach um my wife and I bought our house in 2021 and this July we moved down with our 12-year-old and seven-year-old and made uh St Pete Beach our home uh and we're excited to be here my wife is a graduate of eard college so she's been trying to get down here for many years now I I do want to thank you mayor and commissioner and staff uh again for the thoughtfulness uh that you have been giving and the hard work that you have been doing during these very very challenging times we're all faced with very very difficult decisions right now obviously we're all in firefighting mode trying to do things that are emergency uh removing water removing debris trying to do the things that we can even start to rebuild um but I want to I want to mention some things as we all are faced with very difficult financial and emotional decisions as we move forward the broader issue of flood mitigation and flood management and a couple issues related to that while we hope that Helen is a once in a-lifetime event and we're not ever faced with that again the real reality is since we have been here we have seen more persistent and recurring flood issues on our street where it doesn't take very much that we see water backing up uh on our street through our storm sewer onto our carport on a much more recurring basis so one of the things that I want uh that we all need to know as we are making decisions that uh are almost impossible but but uh could be significant financially are what are the comprehensive and concrete plans that the city has to address items like seaw walls and storm sewer outfalls uh that appear to not have any flap Gates and are not uh stopping water from backing up and the things that as we look at you know I appreciate that we may have the ability to get a new appraisal and raise our 50% value that we may be able to get our house deemed historical but it concerns me greatly to think about even the possibility of rebuilding where I am and being right on that edge and then to have recurring issues isues that are that are that don't I don't see significant management and what the plan is uh that we can expect going forward as the other lady mentioned there are significant grants that FEMA has and I don't know if the city has currently has grants to FEMA to do more broad floodwater mitigation and management for resiliency or if that's something I mean these things don't need to be things that we are looking at five and 10 years down the road they need to be starting construction within the end months time frame about years time frame or it's going to be very difficult for many of us to to want to to to to make the decision to reinvest and and stay here in the place that that we all call our home uh thank you for again for your efforts and you're you're going to be here long time tonight and we're here last night doing things so really appreciate the the thoughtfulness and and hard work that you're doing thank you sir um I appreciate the fact that not every is everyone pays attention to every single commit meeting that we have and much like you a few years ago there was a particular issue that galvanized me to start paying attention what's happening in the city which is how I ended up being here um but just a couple months ago two months ago we actually had a town hall meeting right here where we talked about what are the what are the current plans what are we currently working on for flood mitigation and then laid out what are we doing six months a year 5 years and 25 year plans um and so if you'll send us an email uh that was recorded and then we can forward you that so that'll give you a better idea because you're absolutely right you know you as a residents need to do your part as far as you know now that we've had this substantial situation but we also as a city we want to make sure that we do our part so that we don't have you know the unnecessary floodings on a high tide or another situations and we are doing things on that and we actually laid out a plan and a a full comprehensive breakdown and presentation of what we're doing we actually had two or three different meetings just in the last three months that we where we outlined this and so we can forward you those recordings so you can take a look because you're absolutely right that is important city clerk Grant Izzy if you please state your name and address for the record yeah uh Grant Izzy 203 59th Avenue um as as a gentleman prior to me he said I want want to thank you again as I did last night for the sacrifices again another another late night away from your family um but that's what that's what we're here now as he said firefighting mode so with that in mind I think you with all the discussion it's easy to get you know sidetracked on things that are that will get you sidetracked but I I I want to talk about some things that I think are the focus for right now and what's in your purview the female rules are not in your purview right as much as we'd like to change them they're not in our purview and we shouldn't be afraid of FEMA we should know like you said what the rules are and make sure that the staff is well versed on them and not coming up here and giving bad information okay so don't be afraid of FEMA they don't approve the city's um plan as you heard the City attorney say so that City look back is all up to you and the zero look back is the most beneficial to the residents because what it comes down to is points versus people there's very few points at at stake to roll back to zero but there's many people at stake if you don't so let's not let's not let's let's make sure we see the forest the trees are all out there distracting us but the long-term flood mitigation plan is a long-term plan right now getting people in their homes uh quickly and safely is your priority you have to get the folks back home so they and so they can get moving so please please the the small amount of FEMA points FEMA in itself is not scary they're an audit agency you can't take the cape corals recording that they did the other day as something that scares you right part of what Cape Coral did wrong is they didn't engage with FEMA in the beginning you're going to engage with FEMA you're going to have a good relationship you're going to treat them like Auditors the city's going to have all the records we don't have anything to fear from FEMA okay you just have to change the rules so that we can get moving and get into our homes rolling back to zero does that for us and it doesn't really put us at risk for any FEMA downgrade okay it doesn't those are the facts people won't want to hear that because they don't want to change right they don't want to change back everyone has a fear of change but there's no harm in going back to to zero but a few points and that's really the fact so please stay focused on getting us back in our homes quickly and back in there safely and and giving the city manager the support so we don't have to rely on one guy Lucas to determine if I can rip out drywall because I've come home from vacation come on thank you thank you sir city clerk Jesse aley Mr akley Ed schwend if you please state your name and address for the record Ed Schwin 28072 Avenue on the corner basa sort of kitty corner for Miss Robinson here little over um thank you everybody for being here sorry for everybody's loss and what everybody is going through I'm not representing other people I'm representing myself but I'm advising two elderly people in my neighborhood that rely on me for real estate and can instruction advice that are asking me tell me what to do Ed tell me what to do so uh a couple things uh in the presentation earlier from the the lady speaking she talked about 18 Ines if you have 14 inches 18 inches you got to tear out drywall you got to tear out cabinets either way so I'm concerned about who's making that decision on our homes that's telling us and if if you have so much water determined your substantial damage my concern is if you can do the work with the FEMA guidelines whether you have to get the appraiser or not which I'm going to do just to be safe um and you do all that work and you do everything proper with the FEMA guidelines and then you get this declaration that you're substantially damaged or whatever the term is supposed to be what happens then that's one of my concerns the other concern is is there somewhere that's going to tell me what the costs are going to be used by by the city if they can tell me how to get to it or how they use it I've been in real estate and construction since 1989 I've done over 75 remodels I've done tons of this type of work I have a kitchen and bath company I'm going to do the doors of the trim and the cabinets myself so I want to know what numbers they're going to let me use because I'm going to do that work myself I'm obviously bringing in licensed plumbers electricians Etc so those are a couple concerns that I think a lot of people are going to have um I you know my number is 91,000 but uh I'm also feel sorry for the people that have done work in the past three years if that's going to decrease the amount uh if that's what I'm getting from what this is being talked about so that's very unfortunate so I'm trying to get some answers to help about two elderly ladies that are my neighbors that are you know 87 and 92 so I I have to give them information after I get the information from the meeting but thank you so much thank you and just to clarify for any specific property questions if you send this an email to the appropriate Department send it to me I'll forward it send it to you commissioner we'll forward to the appropriate department and then we can answer those specifically Sam Angeles you please state your name and address for the record Sam Angelus 3990 bista Drive good evening thanks for all your help kudos to the city for all the hard work and uh wanted to talk about the roll back first we penalize people who have done improvements to their house because now people will be scared if another storm comes and have five years hanging over their head that they can't get to that 50% some people use up almost all of that they fix their house up they make it the way they want it storm comes through they got nothing left to fix it handcuffs thrown into water to drown okay so maybe there's a way to fix things to make things where people want to raise their houses because the water is coming and we can't do anything about it Pump Station sea walls all that stuff not going to help when the big flood comes it's going to overwhelm it I've seen people with the fences that are supposed to keep the water out water went over the top of them 3 4ot high no problem hous is flooded there might be a benefit to changing the zoning to allow people to have adus like many other communities are doing this might help offset some of the cost of elevating these structures so people don't have to worry about the storm also would provide affordable housing for people who work in the shops so when you go to a shop the person in the shop is someone who might be from your neighborhood not from having to commute from another part of town then the last thing because I don't want to take too much of your time is the the uh the compliant structures people built their houses at a certain level and now they find out that they're not complying anymore that's tough you know you go you set some up you spend all that money you've heard already so I just wanted to verify that but maybe with the new structures we say okay you want to build a new structure it's new build it higher so there might be some leeway in there to figure out some extra word thank you very much for your time and all the hard work that you did good night thank you I have one question for Mr Mayor sure I I I didn't understand yes you you referenced Adu or something I didn't understand it they're auxiliary dwellings so they're small citas mother-in-laws something like that that you could add to your house if you elevate it only if you elevate it or buil new with the same footprint not to say okay I have a two 2,000t house I'm going to build a 2500 square house and I'm going to make 500 ft for somebody else no if you have a 2,000t or, 1500 s foot and you can decide that you're going to split something off of that so you're not increasing the size of your house you're not increasing the bedrooms of the bathrooms or maybe you need an extra bathroom who should say that you shouldn't have a half bath or another bath but you should and this will be able to keep elderly people in the houses as the price of our properties go up as the price of everything goes up and as their social security doesn't go up we're forcing them out or we're making them sell it to corporations or private individuals who will let them stay there and then when they're done they won't own it and then we'll have landlords instead of residents thank you thank you Katie Brill if you'll please stage your name and address for the record yep um Katie bur 409 89th Avenue okay so um I just want to first state that I want to commend the police officers from the hurricanes and then PR rolling the streets for looters and just people that had to stay in their homes with it demoed and not security and not electric it was very very much appreciated so I want to state that and then I love St Pete Beach the community is amazing the people are what make it and so um with Helen my neighborhood um really showed the neighborhood camaraderie everybody helped each other out getting stuff out we you know we were all down from hel like what the heck just happened and then you know but we got a little Hope from each other to fix things we can make get through it and then Milton came and then it just diminished all hope and so really what I want to say is that I think a happy medium with the look back period is the onee rule I mean it already got passed through the first reading which is is you know hopeful but I I think it is a happy medium and I think it would really help the community feel like they can actually start moving a little bit forward because I know a lot of people are just waiting they have stuff in line but um some of that is restricting them and it's it's I mean five years is a long time so that's all thanks thank you I have no other cards okay we do not have any further audience General audience comments so next we're on the consent agenda is there a motion to approve the consent agenda I make a motion to approve the consent agenda Second City Clerk if you please do a roll call commissioner Robinson yes commissioner Riki yes vice mayor mahand yes commissioner Marriott yes may patrilla yes next we have action item first one is 5A review and approval of the review and approval of the 2025 City commission meeting schedule city clerk thank you mayor I have presented uh attached to the agenda tonight the based on you know second and fourth except for Monday March 10th I changed that because on Tuesday the 11th is our election for districts 2 and four typically we change dates in the holiday season so you'll see that reflected at the bottom for November and one meeting in December I do have one question in 2023 and 20 this year 2024 we started to move our Tuesday first Tuesday meetings in November to Monday to allow for the opportunity for voting even though it's not our election so I kept it as November 4th that is election day and you can either keep it that way or we can make the change okay Commissioners thoughts comments questions I have a question forther clerk Mr Mayor yes sir um so this past year in September we were scheduled for Tuesdays on both days and we had to reschedule in July or whatever it was as a result I believe of pelis County School Board we couldn't conflict with them correct um do we know that this year that would be the case or do we still have to wait till we get to July decide to change them we have to wait until the school board publishes their calendar is in particular to budget as well as the counties we have to monitor both so I cannot put that in it has most of the time changed at least in the four years that I've been here but I can't tell you that until I get their calendar when do they typically publish in July okay so we'd have a long time to wait to make that decision we run into this every year yep and where I worked before same same thing so understand thank you and I'll just went on that one I just because I mean I do plan way in advance just so you know and I know this could change because again July so July 8th was um pre-plan vacation because I have to do it way in advance so if you want to make a note and then I know when we get to July we'll pull it and figure figure out what happens but just wanted everybody to know because I already know from now thank you I think changing it to November 3rd might not be a bad idea um just to avoid election day and then I know this year for example we did the first and 2nd this week in December I would propose that we do December 2nd and 9th and allow a longer period for holidays I think by the time we get to the 16 we're couple days away from Christmas and so I would propose November 3rd and then December 2nd and December 9th okay I wrote those down let me verify November 3rd for 2025 right what we're talking about right okay that way we avoid election Tuesday M and then also December 2nd and December 9th yeah that's fine with me okay I will make a motion to approve the commission dates as amended Second City Clerk if you please do a roll call commissioner R Nikki yes vice mayor mahand yes commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Robinson yes mayor patella yes motion carries next we have we have item 5B motion to approve $600,000 additional to Joe Payne for Building Department Services hi good evening Denise Sanderson community development director so Joe pay Inc provides us entral Building Inspection Services among others um as you may know our building official is an employee of Joe Payne Inc and this is a result of of our attempt to um recruit and retain employees in highly competitive market and as you might imagine it's become even more so given what's occurred over the last month so we're requesting additional funding for this it is available in the building fund and will be pulled from salaries and benefits it is on an as needed basis so if we're able to fill these positions and we do have recruitments and offers pending if we're able to fill these positions you would expect to see a decrease in those Services quite likely we also have the opportunity within our permit system to track those um permits that are associated with hurricane damage so if we're utilizing outside Services we'll be able to apply for reimbursement so wanted to make sure that that was understood as well happy to take any questions thank you questions comments go ahead sir I've beaten this horse to death many times you weren't here for that but I I can be a horse that's okay so in light of of our present situation after the storms um is 600,000 going to be enough and do they have additional resources if we need them and is 600,000 going to be enough if they have additional resources if we need them it's a wonderful question and yes we do have funds in reserve um collected from permits and inspection fees it's a restricted fund it can only be used for these kinds of expenses salaries and benefits or or services such of these is allowed I will mention we've as you know we've recently completed a compensation and classification study so rates have gone up a little bit and we expect to see a larger pool of applicants in our most recent solicitations for a couple of key positions so we're hopeful thank you and for those of you who are still here or watching just so you understand what we're asking for here why we're looking to spend over half a million dollars and that is that we have additional additional resources so that we can process permits faster so that we have building inspect you can come back and inspect the work done and get you that CEO back as quickly as possible so this is all done with a specific purpose to accelerate the process that we can get you back into your homes do we have a motion I have a question yeah okay um in our packet we have um it was the piggyback agreement um so there I don't see and this might be a legal question U more for our City attorney um Mr books is I don't see the new contract like I don't know what it looked like how do we add the 600,000 um and I don't know again if Mr Brooks has had time to see what we're adding because it's not written in our packet I'm looking at the packet now hold on it's a because it's 2021 I mean Alex Ray Signature still on so it's an old the original I think piggy backing on that one or is that the original that is a piggyback yeah so so piggyback does require that we comply with the terms and conditions established in a competitive process this happens to be one with penel County I believe and so the terms and conditions Prevail and this this is with Treasure Island from 2021 oh thank you I'm sorry we would have the same terms and conditions of as Treasure Island and so you just simply add 600,000 to a piggyback cont I mean again this is a legal question so I don't really understand what the process is yeah I mean I believe it's done by um by hourly or per task and um is the building official still here I believe he is left so if there is an exhibit in the packet that details the hourly rates or the services provided that can be requested and those are fixed rates and and what's important here is this is a piggyback contract that that fixes the rates from the time in which it was done which is unusual normally you see an escalation clause in there that's three years ago correct so it's not 600,000 flat fee it's um the schedule is on page 992 of 115 and those are their hourly rates and again it's important to make sure obviously that we um keep track of expenditures that are based on the two hurricanes separately each hurricane separately in a separate form so that we can apply for Hurricane reimbursement but there's we may not spend 600,000 we'll be spending this hourly rate up to 600,000 unless we have to come back to you and hopefully we don't I think this is the third time you're back not you but your position is back so I'm pretty sure we will spend this unless we back fill it with staff so this is an extension for the last extension for the last yeah we're not asking for additional money there's money in the budget for this activity we're just asking for your permission to use it in this capacity with under this contract so when we move because I mean the the on the action item is say to move to approve additional $600,000 so I just wanted I want to know what we're we've had this exact conversation several times because we haven't been able to fill the staff positions so once this six if we don't back fill it with staff when this set $600,000 you know is used up they will have to come back and ask for an additional and you know until we can actually have enough staff so that we can do this inh house right and and again I think it's important to mention this is not adorm taxes that is paying this this is coming from your building fund so this is permit and inspection fees that are that are funding the activities if you will and this will be L for sorry so then this will be lay there for a future discussion item under Florida Statutes the building department is like a silo or an Enterprise fund you have to spend money that you obtain from building permits on building um permit fees they're connected together into its own separate fund okay just making sure we're okay I'm not against it so thank you that's good question any further questions comments is there a motion please we can also um do an addendum that adop adopts some of the new statutory requirements that for contracts there's something for human trafficking that's not in here I noticed so we can do a standard addendum and make sure we do that so if you make the motion to approve with standard uh statutory addendum for 2025 okay that's good I'll make a motion to approve an additional 600,000 to Joe Payne Inc for Building Department Services with uh Dums for 2025 compliance thank you second city clerk if you'll please do a roll call vice mayor mahand yes commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Robinson yes commissioner Rikki yes mayor patrola yes motion carries thank you next we have fem item 5C off authorize a city manager to execute an agreement with the Clarian LLC city manager thank you mayor and city council So currently we have uh Mr Andrew Laughlin here who is serving as our finance director and he's going to go over just a really quick amendment that we changing from an accounting perspective due to the recent disasters we are managing so part of my duties as Finance directors there's a component that that involves disaster mitigation activities so performing a revenue loss analysis uh uh compiling managing all the documentation associated with eligible project costs and also managing the FEMA reimbursement process so we wanted to put that include that scope of services along with the uh allocation of the monthly fee devoted to those activities so that's the uh the amendment to the existing contract that we're bringing before you and this will allow us to file for reimbursements for those expenses there's a category FEMA category Z that involves Grant uh management activities so it would fall under that typically that occurs around the the closing of the project is one of the last elements that's subject to reimbursement but certainly we will make every effort to include uh that that component so that's why it's clearly outlined in this in this contract to delineate that questions yes sir so so there's no material change uh in our ordinance on this other than just to get the benefit of what we're looking for on the FEMA in the correct this is just this is a provision of services on fulfilling the the role of Finance director and also providing these FEMA um disaster management efforts so it's all encompassed in in the in the role I'm serving for the city thank you thank you sir okay this one we also want to do the October one statutory additions so we'll have an addendum for the 2025 laws they're kind of standard boiler played again human trafficking and some other issues that the legislature has asked all cities put in their contracts by Statute great all right is there a motion please I'm I moveed to authorize the city manager to execute an agreement with a claran LLC in the amount of $17,600 for consulting services to fulfill the role of Finance director for the city with the addition of the I mean she we're giving her permission to execute an agreement right do we need to add that verbage what was the question the addendum I mean the 2025 addendum sure with the 2025 addendum yeah Second City Clerk if you'll please do a roll call commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Robinson commissioner Riki yes vice mayor mahand yes mayor patrill yes motion carries thank you all right next we have ordinances 6A first reading of ordinance 2024 d10 city clerk an ordinance of the city of St Pete Beach Florida amending the code of ordinances chapter 34 civil emergencies Article 2 emergency management section 34-31 definitions section 34-33 legislative Authority Section 34-37 Emergency Management Coordinating Committee section 34-38 Declaration of state of emergency section 34-40 suspension of local building regulations Section 34-41 termination of state of emergency section 34-42 commission Authority limitations section 34-44 conflicts section 34 -45 Authority and evacuation zones providing for codification conflict severability correction of scriveners error publication and an effective date thank you city clerk so mayor Commissioners I worked with Dickman law firm and with the city manager because one thing that I've experienced when working here um during state of local emergency is under our current code every five business days we need to be renewing the state of local emergency via a resolution Proclamation and in a meeting um so far with the emergencies that we've encountered weather related um it's been pretty manageable to do that this instance it hasn't been so as you've noticed we've been putting ratifications and adoptions on the next available agenda that's going to be okay until we get to the holiday season where our meetings are not and to be better aligned with the statutory requirement so the statutory requirement is you renew it every seven days but that is not for weather related so weather related emergencies do not have that requirement you have the requirement to adopt your local state of emergency it can be by proclamation resolution whatever and then after you get through that then you do the when you disband it so the two times I studied this or ordance more since it's been added to the agenda and I spoke with attorney Brooks and I just would like it to be in he agrees it to be more clear that non weather we would still have to do the seven days but we wouldn't have to come every week um but for weather related that 7 day does not apply pursuant to the statute so he can speak a little bit more we did have the discussion and we're in agreement it doesn't affect the title block I'm still going to advertise that for the November 4th meeting so that we can go forward and not have to keep this repetitiveness up so um one thing that some cities do and I think we have it in here is that instead of the entire Council having to meet a mayor can or vice mayor in the absence of the mayor can can proclaim the state of emergency and can also extend the state of emergency so we might want to make that clear um the statute has been amended recently um about the expiration of emergency orders um I think it's as a result of U covid and The Mask uh ordinances and things uh for nonwe related state of emergencies they can only be extended up to 42 days um but for weather related you can extend them indefinitely for as long as you need them and as we had in the consent agenda today we had two extensions um but sometimes it's hard to get the entire Council together if there's an evacuation order some of you may be in Orlando including the mayor or vice mayor so if we can do it so that we don't need to have a quorum uh either physical or present or by internet if we just have the mayor or vice mayor and allow these increments to be extended every seven days if you need to call a meeting you can or if the majority of the commission thinks the state of emergency should be uh withdrawn um despite the mayor um then this certainly the council can override that so I think we're okay the way this is is is prepared here um you could say um in this section c that the local state of emergency declaration may be extended as necessary in 7-Day increments you could say um by the mayor or in the mayor's absence by the vice mayor um and could be lifted by the mayor or vice mayor or city council so we're trying to make it so that we're responsive and we can move quickly because sometimes these storms turn fast and sometimes it's hard to get back after a storm right well also for clarification I understand that once it's declared the ratifications required at the next regular meeting is that accurate um if we have that in here we could change that the intent is to allow to be nimble but then also to have the full commission ratify it just as a checks and balances okay and and I would prefer that we yeah it has this um a declaration of a local state of emergency and all emergency regulations and orders activated under this AR under this article shall be confirmed by the city commission by resolution currently we have in there within five working days days of such declaration so that five working days would be removed it says at the next regularly scheduled meeting of the city commission whichever occurs First We Take Out whichever occurs first so you would have if you adopt this um conf confirmation by the city commission at the next regularly scheduled meeting and I would prefer we remove the language of resolutions because I have to keep track of those numerically it makes it challenging and it's been challenging especially not being in my office and coordinating that it has been and it's not requirement by resolution you can do it just by proclamation and those can be added to the agenda much like they've been done now I that's a personal preference just because of the work that's involved with my staff coordinating the resolutions among other resolutions so we would strike the word by resolution and we could say by proclamation I would that's a preference of mine and do we have the language in there for the mayor or vice mayor to be able to make the proclamation we would add it by mayor or vice mayor and the extension by mayor or vice mayor are we do we have consensus on that yeah that's fine and then you and then you ALS I think you had also mentioned and or is it an Andor um commission you said something and and you said section c but I couldn't couldn't find section c so I don't know where you were I I didn't know if it was an and or an or or an and or 34 38 C and I have a printed copy unfortunately I don't have the it's page it's page three of the ordinance I don't know what page of the agenda it is 97 on the agenda yeah 97 yeah 97 of 115 C right in the middle of the page mhm so we would add to that second sentence the local state of emergency declaration may be extended as necessary in 7day increments by the mayor or vice mayor or city commission until there is a finding by the official declaring the emergency or the city commission that the emergency no longer exists or until a meeting of the City commissioners can take place and terminate the local state of emergency by proclamation so that should work that works okay thank you okay any further comments questions any audience comments I have no cards mayor thank you so I motion to approve the first reading of ordinance 2020 4-10 with the corrections made by the City attorney and um clerk I second city clerk if you please do a roll call commissioner Robinson yes commissioner Riki yes vice mayor mahand yes commissioner Marriott yes mayor patrilla yes motion carries thank you thank you next we have 6B public hearing to adopt ordinance 2024 d11 mayor Commissioners this first I was no in the middle of a yawn I apologize no no ordinance 20241 an emergency ordinance of the city of St Pete Beach Florida amending for 60 days the city's Land Development code division three administration of the Land Development code section 3.10 vested rights and non-conformities providing for codification conflicts severability correction of sceners air construction publication and an effective dat thank you Denise Sanderson uh Community Development good evening so this this is a a cleanup item if you will a revisit of an item that we discussed last week as you recall uh you all passed an ordinance last week uh we carved out this provision you had some um terrific questions and we wanted to be confident of what we were bringing forward to you was not going to impinge on some of the requirements for FEMA so I'll just as a brief reminder go through a couple of slides here I have additional slides if we we want to go back and recall more of the discussion but just briefly we did add language uh to exhibit a this is section 310 3D of the Land Development code that says but shall comply with all applicable flood plane management regulations and building codes and that's uh the City attorney feels confident that that language protects Us in the manner that you were concerned about last week um so if you wish to get into the key elements we can revisit those none of those have changed from our discussion last week but we can we can do so it's at your discretion I do have a question on on that's not raising of the non-conforming structures if that's okay um and this is after that last meeting and um talking to a couple of people specifically even with contractors who who have to require variances in order to get these elevated but one thing that was brought to my attention is um many times these non-conforming structures are in a location that's going to hinder raising them where they're currently at you know if you have an AC unit for example on the side of your house that's already on the side of the house has um Awning or sofit or whatever may be um you may not be able to raise it so I mean this is good intention but there's going to be and I want just people to know there's going to be conflict you may not be able to do it because um without raising your whole building which I know we'll talk about later you won't be able to raise these non-conforming structures that is correct so it's not nothing is ever perfect right it's regulation but it doesn't it's impossible to write code for every single circumstance that may arise over time especially with a community that's been here as long as it has we have very old structures things were built um prior to to zoning codes in the like being put in place before uh so we do have to address some of these on a case-by casee basis but the change will I think allow um several structures to be able to elevate on the footprint that they have and become non uh uh Elevate above the flood plane and without having to go through that non-conforming variance process so I guess my question would be in some homes um okay if we're going to do it by Case by case basis right because we're saying in the same spot right where where they going to be put but let's Case by case basis let's just say you know you don't you have a home home that the unit or whatever may be that you're going to raise is towards the front of the home but if it set towards the middle of the home and because the roof now Peaks at that side you can raise it better there than raising it in the front that's going to require variance it would and I don't think it would necessarily comply with flood plane so what you're just described so the the point of this is to gain compliance with the flood plane by eliminating some of those other challenges associated with a non-conforming site or or structure so if the house is not within current setbacks of current code things like that if you're stay on the same footprint we can accommodate that through this through this ordinance well what I'm saying is on a case- toase basis I I'm not saying the rest of the structure if if within 10 feet if I could move my unit um 5T over against my home not meeting the setback to my neighbors is what I'm saying right cuz it what I don't know what they are now if it's from 15 to 10 or whatever it is but you're keeping it from the neighbor but you're moving it so you can physically get it higher because your roof is peaked differently different parts of your home that's just an example I mean Case by case basis it's going to be different for a lot of people but we're just not going to consider that we're just saying in the spot right so we addressed the mechanical change outs in the last ordinance this ordinance is is strictly dealing with the elevation of a non-conforming structure to be elevated in the same footprint I think that's there was a bit of confusion right so that might be the structure that I'm just thinking y okay that's separate but no worries it's been a lot in the last week for that I guess but that's a separate discussion I guess just because there might be case- toase things happening but I do have a question about the about the height um I I'm I'm not clear on the reasoning for limiting the maximum height to something that may be lower than what we're going to be requiring for new structures I think that's an excellent question so I'm going to ask Brandon to handle that one so I think the standard states that it's the design flood elevation or 9 F feet from grade depending on whether there's a garage underneath the structure designed flood elevation would vary with whatever the standards that the city increases or decreases the standard to be would be so if there were to be an additional one foot of freeboard the designed flood elevation is now one foot above where it is today uh the garage would stay stagnant at at 9 ft above grade um so there is a case I guess in an extreme example where design flood elevation might actually end up being more than 9 ft above grade um I believe the original intent of the standard was just to prevent visual overcrowding structures that maybe needed to meet a seven or eight foot side setback they might be set it a three it would still allow them to elevate without increasing the height of the structure so much that it is overpowering in its current location this is an older standard it was written back in 2003 and we're just looking to extend it to substantial improvements I'm just guessing on the logic for it there but that was the intent okay I mean I you know for for for me personally I would feel like if we keep the the maximum height limit at what the maximum height limit is that there's no you know like I I I I I I don't see the benefit in in having a maximum floor height that's very apt to be lower than what we're about to make the minimum floor height of other you know of other buildings I and I get that there's a difference with buildings that are already closer to their neighbors um but but when the point is to get people well above flood waters it seems weird to me to have a maximum floor height that is potentially lower than what new structures are going to be required to be built at I think if I remember correctly the intent here was not was to give enough height to have a garage mhm and not so that you could have a 10-ft additional living space downstairs which may or may not appear a year down the line nonpermanent and that design flood elevation that that varies the way it's defined in the city's code the amendments are that it it varies with any required free board with any additional standards that the city imposes whether that were to be something extreme like multiple feet or one foot so it would it would vary with that standard yes it would be minimal it would just limit them to whatever that design flood elevation is yes okay yes sir so before we move on this uh it seems like you know it's probably a good idea for those that can uh make it work uh I know we're not supposed to be afraid of FEMA but is somebody that's dealt with a number of government audits uh I'm I'm not sure we want to get snored up in in a bunch of audits so I would ask the City attorney um as I asked last week we're comfortable with this that's why I added this language to be sure it says but shall comply with all applicable flood plane management regulations and building codes and that's where the FEMA overlay comes in so this would just be um allowing our own local setback uh to be changed but it wouldn't change any flood plane regulations and it wouldn't change any of the applicable building codes so it wouldn't throw up a red flag to FEMA this is telling FEMA you don't have to worry about this when they see that they're like okay let's move on okay thank you they actually want you to elevate your home put a garage on no I understand that but um the devil's in the details yeah that's why I wanted to add that just to be sure so recall this is an emergency or ordinance it can be passed on uh first reading only reading uh requires super majority and presumably the intent uh that you would have is that we come back and follow the normal ordinance process to codify this as permanent before the 61st day do we have any audience comments Dana Richardson pleas state your name and address for the record Dana Richardson 5830 Bahama Way South um I didn't say this last night but first of all thank you very much for your time and hard work to you and to our city staff because I know it's been very very hectic for you all um thank you Karen for bringing up that point I was not prepared to speak on this subject I didn't even know it was coming up but we did look into tearing down and building Up This concerns me with the 30 ft because if I'm going to invest and throw away a million doll um I don't want to go just where you have it I want to go up a little higher you know Milton was supposed to be really big maybe I want to go to 10 or 11 feet or whatever our first um floor of air condition space was going to be 12 feet tall that means I couldn't even put on a third floor so I I'm kind of like why are we limiting us to 30 ft I think we need a little bit more room so if this is something that's going to change things I think we need to think a little harder on it and the other thing too is kind of back to John kerman's issue um are we going to grandfather property so today you decide it's the the freeboard is at whatever height it is and then it gets changed because we have Milton hitting us and let's just say we get 133 ft and then the city decides to up it again does that mean now I invested in tearing down and then now I have to if I get flooding because of a big storm I have to tear down and rebuild higher or are these people going to be grandfathered in because the day that they invest in their house if the day they bought the house it was to code do they not get grandfathered in so it's two issues can you be grandfathered for any of these ordinance being passed and I think we need to go to a higher height than 30 thank you very much so I think what there's a difference between tearing down your house that's one thing you're subject to whatever the building codes are for tearing down your house this is to allow somebody who has a house that no longer fits the old codes which codes do change so you might purchase your house at today's codes and then you know we're we're changing got four different or you know two different ordinances here and a couple other things and these are all going to have impact so you know there are going to be changes but we're specifically talking about allowing somebody who's not who does not have a conforming structure based on the current setbacks and allowing them to make it easy to go up if you're building new you have different requirements different all different building codes and you'll be subject to that and if you don't want to stick to that then you will have to apply for a variant and also if we get a Ian event with 12 13 15 ft storm surge we'll be having a different conversation yeah and then 7B coming up in 7B addresses some of her issues that are can you build higher than than the FEMA plus one can you do plus three and you can do plus three so that's really some of those are for 7B and I think this this accomplishes a couple different things right so it allows you know allows people to to build up without actually minimizing the potential expense and then also to have you know structure that might not be conforming in today's I do have a question um because we're T I think we're strictly talking about lifting right but if you have a ranch home and I know some other homes have done this who pretty much vacate their um ground level and build above on top on the roof you know make the roof now their their floor it wouldn't be 30t right so I and and I don't know what the standard is for a home like that but I don't know if and Brendan or both of you might know what I'm talking about but some people have opted to do it that way as well not not just um lift their home you're saying if you have a two-story house to build a third story no you have a a one-story ranch home but you vacate your living primary living space at the ground level and you build above your roof now is is your your primary level create a second story to only live in the Second Story correct is is that what this is supposed to do well I don't know that's my question you wouldn't have a yeah you would not so under this under this the first floor is garage you cannot have any living space in it but we're giving it a height so you know a a ranch home I mean I don't know what a standard Ranch home's height is so right so it's it's not this is actually more correct so they but then they wouldn't be able to do it is what I'm saying right that you would have to this is solely just lifting your home correct this this is an extension of that but you're looking more at if the ground floor were to be abandoned turned into storage parking access and then build effectively a second living level on top to meet um I mean we we we set the height limitations so we would need to pair it up with that I don't see that being inconsistent with what we're trying to do here if that's an option I have had multiple homeowners call me recently and ask if that's an option and and it is um it's something we would allow for so if that's something the commission would like to see where we allow for that second level construction keeping the same height limitation if that's what you're meable to um I I think we could look at amending that um I I don't see any major issues with that and I think it's consistent with the FEMA regulations me I know I've seen homes even in my neighborhood three I I could visualize three homes that have done that in the past specifically in order to get up higher correct and and it's this is only you could say to provide for a construction of a garage or non-habitable storage underneath any structure which is so moved and then take out the sentence about the N9 feet so let me because I'm maybe I think maybe you both asked the same question I didn't understand it so is the way this is written is you're moving the bottom floor structure up and you're building a new first floor structure that's correct what you're asking is what if you take the roof off and build a second right okay what it's just an option I know done that option and that's I think I misunderstood that because I assume that either one of those would work just the same because it accomplishes the same thing right correct it and I think it's just I think the only thing is it might the existing home could be higher than 9 ft I see what you're saying correct we take out that sentence of the height is so if they had a 10- foot house right now with 10 foot living space inside and they kept it at 10 ft and then went up there's a lot of homes that are pretty much gut it right now right so you're you're pretty much already eliminating what's gut it but you're able to build above it well not only that but the cost of just raising the roof rather than raising a concrete structure up might more doable I don't know I'm not a contractor I don't know what the well it would be significantly less it's an option correct we we could certainly amend that I I understand why why you're requesting that an asking about it um like the City attorney brought up it would be hard to hold it to that 9ot standard we could hold it to possibly the design flood standard but the ceiling's 11 feet and the design flood is at nine that would give them that two additional feet it's really going to come down to the structure itself elevating it's a lot easier to keep it within that range but a lot of hes can't be elevated so it you know it correct cuts down on the number who could take advantage of those I think I think we could come up with language to allow that second living level to be establish in the ground floor abandon if that's what you would like us to do I I would I'm not going to speak for everybody that makes the most sense could you do it at the existing level or at 9 ft whichever is higher so that if you had a 8ft structure you could go to 9 ft there but then but then you're also not penalizing somebody who's got 10t ceilings somehow they've got to go down correct yeah cuz some might be higher already they might have done work in the past and it's higher you know craw space m correct you can be using your crawl space exactly City attorney is this is this conversation defin enough if it were to be passed as requested that we could amend the language or would you prefer it be brought back well if you want to do it now so you could start doing this for people that ask you would take out that sentence about the 9 fet I think you could just take that sentence out but I think you want some like the mayor suggested it would be the existing height or 9 ft whichever is higher some guard rails on height if that's what you want the maximum height of the new construction for the garage shall not exceed 9 ft from the existing grade of the lot to the bottom of the existing structural member of the lowest floor that's what it says so you could say 9 fet from the existing grade of the lot or the roof of an existing home well it's hard to say I mean because I know that's I think get rid of this entire sentence and then um you'd be safe and they could come back to I mean I think 3A would need to be amended right 3A I think you would take out that sentence that says the maximum height shall not exceed 9 fet from the existing grade take that sentence right out and say accept that you have already in there they accept the minimum necessary additional height shall be allowed to provide for construction of a garage underneath any structure which is so moved and Brandon there's also I know in reading that um the guideline for for FEMA um they discussed something about whether that first level is a garage or a um enclosure that is and this is not for living space cuz was very specific an enclosure that is um because you could have a shed right I mean has to be not we could add the words nonh habitable non-habitable but they were very specific in the thema guidelines about um uh flood um something with flood my gosh I wish I I could find it if you give me a second but flood proof for but it wasn't flood proofing because that was about commercial properties um but something on residential where if you have an area that's like a shed but it's it's strict for that right it's not um gosh I wish there was a contractor here or somebody who knew but there is a word for it and I could look for it really quick and I could tell you um well one thing we could do is bring it back when we come for first and second reading and you could do this for the emergency and then okay first and second reading you'll have it takes longer it'll take a month but if you adopt it at second reading then then they can begin implementing at the staff level at that time you could implement it immediately right we could bring it back we could bring it back next week or on the fourth under the emergency ordinance provision that would happen a little faster then yeah and then first reading on the 19th of the permanent ordinance I don't think anybody thought about this idea of building on top of a roof of an existing home so I know it would like it would like to give people more I mean no one's going to build next week right yeah we'll give the building official and the certified flood plane manager your time to look at what language we have correct and enough time for residents to think hey wait maybe I can do that also okay good okay yeah then in the main if we do have any applicants for guess it would depend on struct give them a heads up that hey this is coming before the commission next week I think it would depend a lot too on the structural Integrity of the existing structure whether it could support correct yeah that's but that's the most common way that I've seen it done in our city is you keep the first floor you either take the roof off build up and put a new roof on or you elevate the existing roof structure yeah in fact every single case that I've seen where they've raised the house they've kept the bottom floor use it for storage and for a garage yeah cuz most of them are already concrete shells yeah if it's concrete block structure yeah and as long as it meets code and if you're elevating and you're you know then two base flood plus one then you can Shore up your structure you're not limited by the 50% M so if you're raising it that takes you out of the 50% remember the 50% is you're trying to be below that so you don't have to raise it but if you're going to raise it then the 50% so so for people that are looking at raising it then let's say that you have 250 to play with but it's going to cost 300,000 you can go up it's if you raise it you can spend whatever you want of course yeah but just saying for some people I think the analysis that they're going to make yeah okay wait a minute I just want to clarify with the commission just so we're on the same page when when I bring this back it would be the lower level if there were to be reconstruction of the floor above the lower level would be limited to the height of whatever the current lowest level is so the garage height would be that that existing first floor height the first floor the first living floor that is then reconstructed on top of the structure would be limited to the same height as it was when it was a grade is that that's the direction of the commission no I think I think they wanted to be able to go B plus one or plus two or plus three can you do it both ways the second so the so the first floor would be limited to 9 ft or whatever it was whichever is greater okay the second floor would be limited by the height restriction of the zoning in that District wouldn't it it it could be um I I think this was drafted to just allow that minimal elevation but if the commission would like it that would allow for potentially a a second story unless we limited that because with the 30 foot height limitation that typically allows two stories of living level if if that's a commission's direction I think the question too is where the second FL floor begins because the existing roof might be still below base FL the elevation plus one right so we had I think we spoke at the last meeting based on how it's currently drafted that first living level could be moved up and remain in the setback but any additions above that would need to be layer cake respectful of the setbacks but if we I think if we kept the 30 foot standard the structure could be maintain that current setback and with it's side rear yard front yard correct um if what is our lowest height restriction throughout the city for single family it's it's at 30 FTS the minimum the maximum that that would be the lowest we do have one District that allows for 35 feed but it single family across the board so that that brings it in line with our current codes anyway okay yeah okay good believe we have a couple audience comments thank you mayor V you please state your name and address for the record Tomia 3514 cablanca Avenue Betty the house that you're talking about is on 37th Avenue by the Samora that's one it's the exact same house as mine they took the bottom floor and they made two more levels on top but I thought my question was originally okay I thought femur in January 2024 made it that you had to raise the house 15 feet above the ground level and that was the new female law if you were raised in your house and it had to have you had to H have a um uh an architect that does pilings and you have to get someone that does pilings because a regular architect cannot do that to raise that house up those were the new things that were implemented by FEMA in 2024 I know of I had them from Andrew and it was 12 you know back then but they didn't require all these other things now that are added to it so when you decide before you want to make these things you need to talk to them to find out if the because I know three people that bought houses in Vena Delmar and they knocked down and then they told them you need some an architect who does pilings which was 100 and over 100,000 for that the architect and it was 300,000 for the pilings to go in and then the house on top of it so and now they have the houses for sale the lots for sale for 800,000 in Vena because of that because they couldn't do it anymore so I just wanted to bring that to your attention so and they had to be 15 ft high from what I understand from ground level so it's something to think about and find out about that's what thema had did in 2024 in January okay thank you sir Alonzo Mr M yes if you please state your name and address for the record how my name is alono Milan I um uh currently live in for Meers but um I'm a CFM and I work for uh an elevation company um originally I'm from New Orleans so today I had a meeting with a homeowner who's older and can't afford to elevator home uh what you're saying here with Higher free board um understand that the cost of elevation is High um some of them don't have 150 200,000 to raise their homes and like that sucks right in reality um even if so what you were proposing with the floor building a second floor in Orleans we identify that as the basement abandonment the structure still has to be subject to the base flood plus the minimum uh free requirement so if your your new floor it's at 10 and your bfp is 3 foot above that then you would have to extend ENT those walls to be 13 and then buil from that um the only thing with non-conforming structures we have projects from Tampa Crystal Rivers all the way to KY West for whatever reason um majority of the structures just don't conform with the set Banks it sounds nice that you can elevate a structure in place uh without going all the the existing footprint of the house but in reality you have a 10-in threat I mean a 10in threet minimum and a 7 in Rise if you're going 12 ft up those steps have to extend somewhere right it's longer most times it will be past that existing footprint um we've been working with the permitting office and the projects that we have here and theyve been very helpful um unfortunately for the project that we have now we're getting the permit approv but it's been after Helen and Milton um that home owner has taken huge losses on her house uh there is a statue State statue in Florida that refers to a move uh the movement of a building cannot be counted towards the uh uh cost of identifying that's renovation um I am not a lawyer so I don't know if that would appli so it has a conflict with local ordinance um I would confine to let that uh after the meeting before bringing chaos for your for your perent department but one thing to keep in mind is just roughly it's up to y'all if I just go and finish your all right in New Orleans after doing the cost of elevation so I used to do a Workman construction management for the flood and hasard mitigation Grant from New Orleans all the way to St Charles so you'll do a cost to benefit analysis you have to prove to FEMA that elevating the home basically would mitigates the potential loss right uh and then you have to make sure that that square footage account accounts you you break that number and you break it B by the square footage roughly back there it was I can't just close that information but it's low compared to the cost of elevation here and it was barely making it so right now if you if you were to do the bare minimum for elevation which will typically require for you to push piles uh once you get to refusal lift the house build columns if you go the bare bare minimum on a there we go on a 1,200 s foot home at $120 a square foot you're looking at $144,000 to raise your house um and the difference roughly would have been at12 and9 um and that's it actually goes against me pretty much my ball sees going to be piss all right but it it you need to take in consideration that the cost of construction in Florida are crazy high right now um I'll be surprised if any of the houses are taking damage during the storm are not going to be considered substantial Improvement um those I'll give you just simple example there you go all right so at home with a BF of 11 right now plus two we have to go to 13 existing top of floor which in regular slap on great house would be 3.79 that's what I've seen in a couple other projects that we're looking at and that's pretty much if I'm eyeballing it that entire block would be right around that same elevation so if they have to go from 3 .79 of 13 just to be compliant with that ordinance roughly you're looking 5 ft right um sorry so an open foundation at 8.79 it it's the numbers are just crazy and bringing that base full elevation if you look at the maps right now your yall's area goes from ve Zone to AE and if you identify typically through FEMA AE as a coastal AE then you're subject to kind of the same construction methods as a ve Zone that means Breakaway walls Frable slab um or in some instances FEMA identifies the bare minimum but it gives the local municipalities the right to to implement strict rules so we've seen other municipalities who just simply said if you're in a vzone you're you're not building you you have to keep open um open foundation uh that significantly reduces the the cost of construction however the the space below that area has to be floodable right can be living space can never be converted to it um but having that open area is less secure right you have a car underneath you can park it's made for that but then you limit what you can do with that space thinking where this will be moving forward man it's it's going to take some doing for you guys to get back on this and it's crazy cuz like I I feel for all the homeowners who I've had to say dude I'm sorry we couldn't get the permanent time not not here only but other municipalities who perhaps weren't looking at the elevation permitting from the purpose of of like distant elevation some revisions were requiring smoke detectors right some revisions are requiring uh carbon monoxide detectors and it's like we're not building new all we're doing is elevating at home um but then that becomes where your building officials and your planning officials kind of come together and just be like you know what if what they're proposing now it's a great idea for the structures are non-conforming because one typically a variance how long does does it take to apply for variance we have to prove that variance is needed once a variance is approved for a hearing you're looking at a month and that's not a guarantee whether or not they will issue that variance for you to elevate so what do you do with those homeowners who apply for a variance don't get a variance and can't Elevate their home the next best step is just demo right some home owners may not want to demo or if they do demo I'm not rebuilding sell the lot let somebody else do their wrong thing until those building coasts change and the freeboard changes um I'm not familiar with how I know people that have that knowledge um I would if it would help I would I would introduce to them um but it has to be I think there's a way that you can be FEMA be uh conforming to Fem regulations while still remaining some of these structures that are nonconforming allowing them to to get to that level um well thank you I much appreciated okay so we'll take all that into consideration and bring this back on the fourth mayor can I make one comment um because it reminded me something that I has I think either Brendan or or Denise when they presented um last week um and and he kind of reminded me because I do know of a home and it might be the same home you're talking about that was trying to raise or or lift their home open permit waiting for approval and I think Brendan you had mentioned that the staircase was an issue um so it it it helped remind me about that um what can we do for that particular for those particular cases because these homes are um going to if the idea is to lift in that same spot you know it's their case like in the case if it's the same one that we're talking about um needs a variance um so what do we do about that and and also in writing this up just to put out there too it's not that I want to say that everybody has to have a garage underneath um I know an option that is less is not to have a garage or Clos an enclosure um I do have figures from some people who have told me what it costs or what they're this was last year you know prices are going to change okay so don't you know 1,400 square foot $225,000 for an unfinished bottom finishing the bottom 275 right $275,000 to to lift your home okay and that's a number I know for sure of current um application um so I know it's expensive um but you know what happens when they run into those issues um because they got to get into the house somehow right so if they you know they could always accommodate it within the footprint of the structure if they want to add it underneath and have the you know entrance into the living level above that does of course take you know some space away from the living floor uh when they elevate but or when they reconstruct new the the case in question that you're bringing up they were able to accommodate that that's no longer an issue and I we did approve that permit earlier this week um we can I can talk to the building official I can come up with a rise over run standards look at what a typical home would need for a staircase encroachment and we could bring that back to you as a recommendation if that's something the board or sorry with the commission would like to consider as a incidental extension of the elevation of the structure it's going to be difficult because some structures are set at 10t from the front set back and are going to be elevating some are set at 30 but they have a side encroachment and they can accommodate the the footprint that we would allow for a staircase and um you know there might be area on the side where they could jog the staircase back and they wouldn't need an encroachment we could look at that and that's something we could bring back as as a component of this if if you would consider that and I would like to because obviously we're trying to make we're doing this to help residents be able to improve you know the home but not I'm not saying let's not follow any ordinances or anything but how do we know we know that's a possibility you know and we know it's happened so how can we help so in cases where they can demonstrate that there's a hardship with a culminating a staircase they would be able to incidentally extend into a yard and we'll come up with a standard for that we could write it in to the code rather than requiring a variance make it permissible when we do when we come back we put something in there for incidental stair rise so they don't have to go through that variance process thank you right before we move item to items of discussion I think we should entertain a motion to extend to 10:30 wow I didn't know that was that time motion to extend to 10:30 Second City Clerk if you please through a roll call commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Robinson yes commissioner Riki yes yes ice May Mahin yes yes motion carries I realize I'm being [Laughter] optimistic discussions right the first item that we have is 7aa recovery task force I will attempt to be very brief uh Denise Sanderson Community Development so this is a discussion item only seeking direction as to how you wish for me to proceed excuse me within um the Costa element of the comprehensive plan is the requirement to establish a recovery task force following a major disaster such as we've experienced obviously so uh two task force members are required and that being the City Emergency Management coordinator which is our city manager Francis robelli or her design the other is a member of the building department we would recommend Luke Curtis as the building official or another design I suppose if he he wishes to do so and then there are a number of additional staff members uh or members excuse me of the recovery task force and that's really what we would like you to describe but before I get into that I want to talk about what this task force is charged with doing so according to the comprehensive plan um there are several things six of them are detailed these six are detailed within the agenda memo four of which have actually been conducted already by staff as a requirement of damage assessment and the like so it's really the the remaining um number five and six and that is to recommend to the city commission appropriate Hazard mitigation policies that should be implemented in response to the disaster and to prepare a report evaluating post- disaster Redevelopment response and make recommendations for necessary changes I would view um number six kind of as an after action right what what did we do well what what do we need to think of going forward um given that we're already in this phase the recovery um a recovery task force um really would like to get some direction is how comprehensive and detailed and involved would you like this task force to be but um let's talk about briefly the members so we would recommend a planning board member a beach stewardship commit Committee Member historic preservation board member a representative from a wildlife or environmental advocacy group such as Tampa Bay Watch Turtle trackers or seabird sanctuary and one member of an employee preferably of the Tampa Bay Beach's Chamber of Commerce so that we can make sure that all facets of the community are represented so seeking your direction how would you like to seat that task force do you want to call for applications do you want these organizations to appoint members to the task force this would be a sunshin committee um so that is of consideration it we're not limited to a number of members so if you'd like to think about additional members as well we can do that um so again seeking your direction thank you you're welcome Mr Mayor yes sir so in preparation for this I actually spoke to the chairman of the three boards uh outlined here at the planning Beach and historic uh just to solicit their input and also um uh ask anybody that they might recommend uh to be certain that uh those individuals knew they were signing up for a job that they were going to have to be available and make a commitment to time uh if we move forward with this and uh I did uh I spoke to Mr hubard with the planning board um uh the uh Bill Lowry with historic preservation and Dan rosberger with Beach stewardship and in the case of beach um Dan was willing to serve himself and I first of all I think all three of these boards have a number of members that could contribute to the task force uh but in each instance the chairs themselves uh indicated that they would be willing to make the commitment and that they uh would essentially be honored to fulfill that Duty for the for the citizens uh um with Beach um Dan had a discussion with uh the vice chair of that committee who also has experience uh as a crisis manager in the private sector John Stevens I believe he he's still here uh so um the the chair of the beach stewardship uh was willing to serve himself is willing to serve as an alternate um but uh he and I concluded that if John Stevens were willing to serve he would certainly be a good person to consider uh so I I will say that was a conversation with that particular committee and with historic preservation board Bill Lowry himself uh said he'd be willing to make the commitment to serve on um the task force and with the planning board and I think David H Bert is is here uh and he had indicated that um he would be willing to serve as well to help the community so uh I don't know where we want to go with this but I did want to speak to the chairs and uh I'm reporting back to you that that was my finding or reporting back to the commission that that those were my findings uh in the discussions with those three boards thank you I I also spoke with um my appointees you know on and and they all are willing which is always great to hear that everybody is willing to serve um of course many had questions about um sunshine and conflict if more than one member from the same committee was serving on the task force um but I I let them know that we would be talking about that so you kind of prefaced it already saying it's under the sunshine so um wouldn't have two people from the same board anyway they would be one from each board correct but that it answered it because we weren't sure what what it meant and and where where it was so but in case anybody else um if we're looking at at the chair um as the person there's still other people within those committees that are willing to do it as well at least for for mine um and maybe you all spoke with some people as well and and sorry may I add to even for Board of adjustment and other committees um and I don't know if we want to add um from other committees but I I know someone from Board of adjustment my board of adjustment was willing to serve yeah and this is at your discretion these were just some recommendations that we put forth for discussion thank you I think the number is good I don't think we need to expand it any further I sit on a couple committees that are like 11 12 13 people and five is good seven right it would be seven yeah um and certainly I would need to get a recommendation of which of these organizations or do you wish to call for applications from Tampa Bay Watch SE Turtle tracker seabird Sanctuary or some other environmental advocacy group yeah I think we could uh number five we could just have a member of the business community and then if they want to put nominations in whether it's from the chamber because we know not every business on the island is represented by the chamber or a part of the chamber so I think we should just leave it open to the business community and then the same I the Conservancy as well me we can just have them nominate we could we could have a um as we've done in the past have an open nomination period um and then if we wanted to you know take those recommendations interview those individuals we can certainly do that okay so just what time frame are you looking at putting this in place yesterday well we certainly have a lot on the plate so um we would need to look of course at the scheduling as well to figure out when this would actually get going I don't have a time frame in front of you because I wasn't sure of the process that you wish to deploy so we can come back with you on that when we make recommendation for appointees um what I would S I just want to make sure that what I'm hearing is how you wish for me to go forward so a call for application would be a um um representative a person representing environmental advocacy so not necessarily from one of these groups it would be an open call similarly a person representing the business interests must have a business located on the city of St Pete Beach well we would want the the individuals to be either residents or business owners got it in the community thank you helpful thank you I think I have all I need if everybody's actually do we have clarification on the planning Beach stewardship and historic are we going to get a recommendation or you want us to do a call on those boards as well I think the chairs if we can get the chairs to agree that would be my personal first preference um I'm think I'm seeing consensus okay okay just wanted to make sure we clear on that all right thank you thank you all right next we have item for discussion number two FEMA 50/50 rule so as presented to us we have four options the staff's recommendation was that we roll back to one year I think there was a question as to how many homes might be impacted uh I do know four of my neighbors finished Renovations within the last six to 12 months and all of their stuff is out front by the curb and so those four individuals for sure would be impacted I'm sure that there's others and so um yeah what are your thoughts so I think that the the you know the intent of the the FEMA 50% rule is to encourage people to to comply with current flood code so they don't get flooded right and um and I think that's a an admirable goal and I think it's one that all of us who have gotten flooded are probably thinking really hard about um I also think that that government in general should tread very lightly on telling people what they can do with their own property and and so for me um I would both be on board for changing the look back period to a year but also keeping the things that are currently Exempted in the 5year um because when you if you change it to a year look back but you don't exempt roofs and uh energy efficient windows and AC units you know for for many of the houses particularly in my district that have very low values on the structure um without those exemptions it doesn't matter what the look back period is you know the look back period could be two days or 20 years it's not going to make any difference those are hardening items too so that makes it hard to and they're expensive hardening items yeah commiss Mohan I want to hear what everybody else has to say okay I'll go um I'm I don't want to this town and um I I want to see people get back in their homes and um I was really surprised when I heard that you know we stayed at the same rating when we did permit to permit I was really surprised at that um I'm for either a permit to permit I'd go a year but I'd be very much like uh commissioner marot with keeping the exemptions but I also want to know I'm really interested in the before I would even make a decision on on that would be interested in finding out what the decoupling of uh between SI and Di I mean that's huge that influences a lot um so I have questions on that and also um you know uh SD being the date of the event I um I remember the day I was here when they brought up the fiveyear look back okay and was the year after ETA um in in our city um and and unfortunately I hate to say it's unfortunate but that the whole city wasn't affected and everybody didn't show up back then when we were all uh and I'll say my neighborhood was arguing this okay um I I I want more information on what FEMA looks at to the event okay because whether it's one year or five year from what I'm understanding they audit the event right so if going back to permit to permit keeps us at the same rating then why not um when they're looking at the event so and I want to clarified I don't know if it's the truth or not but I keep hearing it and I keep reading it so I I cannot and and I hope we're not looking for a vote I know we're looking for a direction um but that's what I need um to make a better decision um so that people can get back into their home but I would encourage people to make your home more resilient people in the Donar have three hits already okay since 2020 so if you don't think it can happen again it will and we should be prepared for it so I I want people out there to really think about that I I have had to open up my walls three times since I bought my home okay and and trust me I'm not I'm not happy about it I almost feel like I'm an expert at it and I don't want to be but you need to be planning for that so again I just need more information I would prefer permit to permit if what they're looking for is the event so we're not making a motion tonight okay uh we just discussing it right now okay I I I agree with commissioner R Niki and I already indicated I'd like more data more information and I mean if we had to make a vote tonight I'd make a vote but um I you know it's we all know this is a big decision and it impacts a lot of people and I wish that it'd be real easy to say well you know just start issuing the permits and have at it but um there's a lot of long-term considerations here and um I would just like a little more specifics on some of the questions that I previously asked um clarified as as or clarified better than they were tonight um so that's my position so with with that said let's make sure that we provide clear Direction on what questions we want answered so that we don't come back and punt it a second time well Fair time so commissioner M will start you with you what are your questions so we can provide those you want me to restate them again um or if you want to email them to the staff whichever turn them into the clerk in paper too yeah okay we can do that be helpful for us yeah um let's I that probably be better if I just email them to the clerk without all my scribbles and stuff on it can we agree on a 24-hour timeline oh I I definitely am pretty proud well I just want to make sure that we we have a very short window to the next commission meeting no no no no I uh trust me she'll uh she'll probably have them before she wakes up she wakes up early I know she does I know she does she knows I wake up early so all right so um emails are public record so if you have questions that you would like for the staff specifically if you will please email them to the city clerk and the city manager so that we have them um in preparation for re in this um so I do want to move to some consensus so we can help the staff prepare better from what I'm hearing nobody's looking for Wild West option one right okay and we're not looking to keep option four which is the fiveyear so right now what we're looking at is sort of option two and threea and 3B right so option two is no no Des designated look back period you close a permit you open a permit option 3A is what the staff recommended which is a one-year look back period but eliminating the exempt items and then option 3B is what commissioner Robinson proposed which is a one-ear and keeping the current exemptions for hardening right Windows AC's roofs Etc okay over I so Mr Mayor just so I'm clear that none of those options include some of the recommendations from the staff for converting the whole city to Coastal a so that was or well that that was the original first reading of that ordinance back last year I didn't hear anyone here thinking we wanted to increase freeboard go to 49% although to me 49 or 50% doesn't make much of a difference but it does seem to make a huge difference to FEMA for some reason so I would be inclined to move that 1% to save guard us I would too especially if yeah we go to option two I would certainly want to see that safety net cuz if we're going to lose 20 points you know we can gain some back and that 1% is is going to make you know $1,000 difference right $2,000 at the feema at 20 you know so anyway so so nobody here is lobbying for the 3 foot fre board or the coastal a is that what I'm hearing from I did not hear anyone correct so I think the consensus was we want to stay at 1% sorry one one one foot 10 plus one y okay I would be inclined to go with 49% since it gives us a significant amount of points at very little downside right yep especially if we get all the other yeah personally have very high reservations about going back to no look back period I think that puts us in the um as my CPA always tells me every year there's there is black there's white there's a gray area let's stay out of the gray and so far course some wood right I think the one year gives us a very good safety window versus the no look back period I remember what it was like back then is you would L you would see people closing a permit and the next morning they'd be with a new permit and another FEMA packet um I'm personally I'm I'm I'm very apprehensive of as to what that might mean for the future our future entrance rating it's not a matter of fear it's a matter of reality right um because that could not only impact your house or five houses but that could impact all 9,000 and that could be devastating for you know when you look at what Cape Coral is doing to maintain their rating and we look at what happened to the cities that lost their rating we don't even want to get close to that and I know we're being proactive and I have every confidence in our staff that they're going to work with FEMA and navigate this challenging but those are my thoughts mayor let me clarify so that so that the staff understand what I mean by going permit to permit and looking at an event you know again my question is what is female looking for because the situation in Cape Coro or any other City when they are going to audit or come in they might not be looking at our fiveyear or our one-ear they may be looking at the event okay so that's what we need to be able to audit so I'm trying to make sure that what we are preparing ourselves is to be able if we were audited that they're looking at the event if that is what they're looking at because again whether it's one year or five year if they're looking at the event it doesn't matter so that and that's my question is what are they looking at because again if they if they're not going to go back to look at what happened to me in ETA or are they going to go back to look at me in idalia or they going to look back at what happened and what I did at Helen so it's not it's not that they're not looking at each individual event when they're auditing you from what I from what I saw and I heard is that they're looking at what steps did the city take correct at any point before that and at any point after that and if we set things up that allowed people to circumvent the process correct like no like a no look back period could be perceived as you've created this a way to circumvent the process no that that's that's what they're when they're auditing it they're not auditing that they EV the event is the trigger that starts the audit correct but they're looking at all the decisions that we've made correct and that's what we could correct the systems that we have in place because if the systems that we have in place are looking at the event when you submit that packet you're relating it to the event we can I mean I would think we could manage that right that we're we're looking at the permits that are open and the projects that have to be corrected to get either a substantial Improvement or substantial damage um to the event you know um again there's other cities that are doing this so and I'm just can we can we look at what we're doing maybe we can have those systems in place I'm not looking for an answer these are just my questions right you know because I will be good with the one year um if again I don't I don't want to put the city in in um lose their people lose their insurance or or or any anything of that nature that's not what what I'm trying to do I want to make sure that what we're doing is what they're going to be measuring and that's and that's what I'm looking for okay so I I'd like to move forward with some kind of consensus on you know no look back period a look back period with restrictions a look back period with s with exemptions or without exemptions so that we can provide the staff with Direction so that they can have something ready for us mayor I did just want to make a statement um we don't take comment on discussion items is that correct we do not generally also this is a continuation of a first so if you've already commented on when we first opened the discussion earlier today everybody get three minutes I may I just make a suggestion to Mayor I I think because some of the ideas you have on here we have to work with the state and FEMA anyway maybe we just take the three options I've heard that I think you're all okay with and not we're not going to do anything um and let us come back with that information because without that Clarity I don't think we can give you good C because two of the three we would have to we would not feel comfortable recommending moving forward without the state looking at it and and their consultant as our City attorney pointed out saying yes this is good to go and they just made their consultant available to us this morning right she's going to be in town for the next few weeks can expedite yes we have a lot of people coming in so yep okay so you have Direction you need yeah we do okay uh right next we have commissioner mohal I believe you brought up uh ordinance 2024 D9 want to discuss yes Mr Mayor I'm not looking to make it hard on anyone I just want to have the conversation are we not getting crossed up with FEMA with with this I know we've got new information which ordinance was that if you remind oh that was the change outs that we passed last week with the AC units right right is are we not getting crossed up with FEMA on this I mean I know we've had a lot of new information since last week specifically the Cape Coral case study I just want to ask the question I'm not saying that we should resend it obviously uh uh it's beneficial to the residents to be able to do it but I do want to ask the question does that pose an issue uh or some type of danger to us as a city moving forward uh with that ordinance that we passed last week we can bring that up with DM when we look at these other ordinances are we okay with that with letting it ride um this actually came up on our call with Cape Coral that we originally drafted this to read differently than what was adopted last week because there is a provision that was added to the building code and that it comes out of the building code it's not directly from FEMA that um it seem it appeared to sound like if equipment was substituted and the equipment sustained flood damage it needed to be elevated even if the home was not being elevated um I did speak with our building official our flp plan manager and he spoke with Cape Coral and the others on the call and that standard does not change any interpretation that is currently enforced by FEMA um equipment that is at grade and being swapped out with a nons substantially improved home is allowed to remain at grade if it's elevated when it's changed out it needs to remain elevated so one can't you know reduce the height below the base flood but if it is at Great equipment and the home is not taken substantial damage the the equipment can be swapped out we have run that by our flood plane manager and and the other affected communities good so we got it right I I think we did as near as we can tell yes yes thank you that's all I have on that Mr Mayor thank you uh commissioner Robinson discussion on resources and sorry I was just wanted to put that out there to see if we could do any EXT if we were able to do any extension under our rates that we're getting from aftermath or anything like that to be able to extend that out to um HOAs the other you know businesses uh you know in the community I don't know if that's possible but just wanted to be able to ask that question um to see what their contract says you know if it's after the 90 days what whatever but just be unable to offer something to them yeah be happy to look into that with aftermath and I also confirmed with our city engineer today that the county has several contracts that they went out for emergency bid and they would extend those contacts and contract amounts to the commercial vendors so I think what I'll try to do is get that list out ASAP to anyone who's interested and then start the conversation with aftermath as we wrap up the residential would they honor the rates for the Condominiums as well which we all saw today so we have that available and ready for them to look look at and maybe do some estimates thank you and then commissioner Robinson also a discussion on permit fees that was commissioner marot yeah was Betty was the resources for Recovery was actually is that your your I normally write down your names next to it and I thought like I'll remember this and then then we're on H so no go ahead yeah go ahead because I think they'll kind of tie in together so okay and and it's basically just a discussion or or or TR to put out to this to um the city manager or the staff um where we could have um e easier a location for resources for residents for um um anything out there right like the the funding for example um for when when they could request for assistance from FEMA if they're able to get the 30,000 um is there and I think during our discussions we talk about funding from State I think our Finance U director mentioned that also that's part of the job I think under the contract is start looking for federal state um dollars out there um I know some residents brought that up um but it what I've seen going around I don't think many residents don't have power because they choose not to put on their power right now right so they don't have internet they don't know where to go so I'm trying to um and I know we talked a little bit about this do we put things on their doors um where you can go for resources um you know uh people didn't have to did have to go to showers and you know laundry and um help move stuff people haven't been in their homes so I don't want to lose you know that what we were doing at the beginning I know we had a lot of little Flyers out that we were trying to pass out to people people still need that um maybe in another language as well because I I did run into a lot of people who speak other languages and we happy that I spoke another language so that I could communicate to them um that there are things available for them so just to to just remember that even when we're if we're doing an event next week um um you know the concert or whatever we do if there's a booth or something available for people so that they so that they know their stuff available um in in our community I know pelis County offers it there's other places that have locations but um some people need places that are walking distance um because they may not have a vehicle either so just to remember that and I brought up zoning but one of one of the speakers brought it up but is again thinking out of the box um on how we could help residents who um when when they talked about the zoning and I think he called it AUD or something the question auxiliary dwelling auxiliary dwellings correct that and and I know um Mr Angeles didn't elaborate more on it but because I've had conversations on it the idea was um for people like that like someone who's older who would consider still lifting their home but knew that they would be able to have some type of Revenue to offset the cost to be able to to lift their home um by having some auxillary dwelling um that would require zoning change or addition or so forth but I gu to kind of think of the out of the box because maybe some people were thinking well I wish I could do this but I can't do it um just putting it out there I think for most units it's your your setbacks are really going to limit unless you're sitting on a double lock you're not putting an Adu on anything because you won't have and not only that but the Adu will have to be at the same height as your other you couldn't have it on the on the on on the first floor You' have to be it would have to be at the height and then you also would have to change the zoning to allow for double density on each lot so you would go from 8 units per acre to 16 units per acre so now we're looking at increasing the density and redoing the Zoning for most areas where we couldn't even fit you know the gumman who was here last last week you know a lot of of our old streets you couldn't even build a house on the lot because they're so small where you would there the setbacks are the lots 30 feet and the setback is 15 feet so you couldn't now simple like simple things and I and again this is to look at or think out of the box you have um um do you need to extend 15 minutes because I know I think we should have a motion to extend to 10:45 motion to extend to 10:45 Second City Clerk feel pleased to a roll call commissioner resi yes commission vice mayor mahand yes commissioner Marriott yes commissioner Robinson mayor p yes I'm not saying like to add another home or another an addition that's what he was talking about though okay well no well I've spoken with him too it's kind of like you have you have four bedrooms already in your house but to make one of those bedrooms a livable room for someone right like you're you have three bathrooms four bedrooms one bathroom one bedroom is going to become that mother-in-law Suite if you want to call it that right but that that additional Revenue that you can get um to offset your cost if that makes sense like rent out a room like they do on Airbnb they say I to call it Airbnb it's more having a having a mother in-law suite you know that that that used to be something that was very common and it used to be something that was very common here on St Pete Beach you know there's a lot of people that have you know little Cottages in their backyard or a little you know garage apartment and and I think that I agree with commissioner R Nikki I think that is something we need to look at and not just to help people defay the cost of potentially elevating their houses but we also Al probably In This Storm have just lost all of the affordable housing stock on the island that was remaining for people who are bartenders and waitresses and work at hotels on the beach you know there was there there up until very recently there is a number of those people who could live out here and and I fear that the places that those people live have all been substantially damaged and when they get rebuilt as something significantly more expensive those people aren't going to be able to live here and uh and and I think that we do need to look at some creative ways of of of looking at some of these things because that's not increasing density so that's why I said think of it as a bedroom you know you already you could already have four four bedrooms that means you have four people right but one of these people now is someone that could afford to rent that room or an additional room that brings revenue for someone who's trying to make so he specifically used verbiage Adu additional dwelling unit which would be I know it's called ad would be a standalone building smaller than the footprint of your existing building so that is so when he says that there's nothing as long as you stick to our rental ordinances there's nothing to prevent you from just renting out a room your house if you wanted to I didn't know if that's possible I'm not certain though that there's anything in our ordinances that allows you to have like a room with a separate entrance and a kitchen that you know I thought it came up once didn't it come up I we don't need to come up someone this is maybe something you all could think about kind of thing I'm not if there's General consensus we could do a workshop on Creative zoning housing options for the you to look at yeah to see the challenges that may exist with an Adu you would have to look at setbacks this is what a lot of communities did when they wanted to increase density on the on the uh Parcels if you want to do separate es or as long as they're long-term leases or do you want to look at there there are challenges in modifying your um short-term rental so we can bring it as a general Workshop if that's what you all would like I just think you need more detail yeah if you want to make any significant decisions I'm against it so we can we can we can get to consensus on the workshop I'm against it I don't I don't know that that is really the most pressing thing we have to deal with right now considering that we have really many pressing things so if three of you think we need a workshop we'll have a workshop I feel there's more pressing issues I'm just yeah I I I I I think it certainly War warrants consideration but honestly there's a bunch of stuff we had workshops on that got cancelled I thought warranted consideration so um I I think maybe are you still keeping that list Madam city manager that we talked about yes I have the list okay well maybe you can add that to the list to the list okay a wish list okay all right next we had the permit fees who had that one that was me so um I I would be interested in in in you know I I think um I had a resident remind me today that after tropical storm ETA which was in November a few years ago that uh uh uh permit fees for repairs were waved for that event by the city um you know a number of our neighboring municipalities have reduced or waved permit fees for recovery from the storm and uh um you know I I think that that our our residents are going to be you know financially this is challenging and it's challenging on a lot of levels and if there's something that we can do that is helpful without uh you know without making the city so strapped we can't function because clearly we're in a time where we need more resources in the building department because there's going to be more permits being applied for and issued um but I didn't know if there was a possibility of of uh Community Development giving us some information on on you know is there a is there an amount of a discount or kinds of permits that fees could be waved for or something like that that would give residents some relief um without causing a great financial hardship to the building department two questions if I may what is our average permit fee and two our permit fees factored into the feema 5050 50% rule into the cost of those I don't know is an acceptable answer I'm embarrassed to admit I do not know what the average fee is and yes I believe that it is factored into the feem of 50% so I think we talked about this last week maybe mentioned it last night one of the challenges that I'm having right now is because we have such widespread damage and of of all types I'm waiting for data from the county and we've requested it twice I think once I get some information about affected versus damage or s L damaged then we can come back with you with an estimate a best guess estimate the good news is we do have funds in reserve um within the building fund and so my hope is that what we come back with will be positioned well to simply pull that offset from Reserve so the fees that we are unable to collect but the expenses that we're incurring if you will Allah jopan as an example is we're able to offset but I beg your Indulgence I'm I really to get the data so that you all can make an informed decision and then that leads me to my third question and I'm going to sound like the bad guy here and that so be it um I'm against the idea on in principle for one specific reason um most of the structures that were impacted are receiving insurance money and one of the things that they will give you will get money for is for permitting fees and so if we eliminate the permitting fees we're put the city in a position where we're reducing the revenue that we need to hire more you know people to review the permits so that we can expedite the permits so the question is is there a way to separate people who are not receiving Insurance funds those who were uninsured and maybe helping those I know the answer is most likely no but I I see where you're going at at the same time if insurance is paying for it I certainly am not looking to give the ins insurance money you know a free pass here but I do understand that there might be individuals who are so strapped because they that they weren't and I I know people that were uninsured during this well and certainly you know um a lot of small business owners you know flood insurance for a for a tenant a business tenant is um prohibitively expensive and most of those tenants are or many of them are responsible for their own leasehold improvements and so you know businesses who don't own their own property you know that that that could be a really easy place to start y so that's I think I think the spirit of what you're asking for has great Merit but I also don't want to take insurance money and just throw it away when when the city itself is strapped as well I mean we're losing just for everyone understands $500,000 a month right now on parking Revenue because we have no place to park that's $6 million over the course of the year that's 10% of our budget gone and so I'm not sure how much we're getting in permanent fees but if that puts us in a position where we don't have the $600,000 Reserves notwithstanding those can get you know 600,000 that eats up half our reserves in one vote so I I think would we all be if you can bring us those answers to those questions any other questions that you may have that we can give to the staff just one clarification um so you had you had asked if the per um anywhere the mayor had asked about um the 50% rule in permitting fees [Music] so let's use the $100,000 example that I used hours ago if you remember it um so there's a $90,000 estimate to repair a home that had 50% % is 100,000 but then there's the 10% um so if their permit fees or let's say $500 is that part of the 90,000 grossed up to 100,000 it would be so your contractor would need to include the permit fees associated with the proposed scope of work so in the case that we're talking about where the insurance is likely [Music] 98% of the cases paying those permit fees or reimbursing those permit fees the homeowner is still penalized through FEMA if the city is CH or charging that $500 permit fee because they're it's knocking out 05% of their allowance but if we wave the fee they'll still add it back just just like if you tore out your own drywall and then pay for something okay so they will just just like if you do it yourself no saving anything right my understanding is that you still need to include it in that calculation so remember donated labor Etc so it might save somebody's out of pocket expense but right but that's yeah my question mayor basically answered my my concern on that so it's really an issue of whether the city should give up the money where in most cases 95 to 98% of the people are probably getting reimburse that through insurance and if there was is again I don't know if there's a way to break out a hardship scenario just like we would with a variance where we you know if you can document a hardship you didn't have insurance we can I don't even know if that's possible but maybe if we get an answer well anything is possible is it legal let's let's rephrase it is it you know so maybe that's something we can revisit add as a discussion item for next week with some answers just a quick you comments just because I know time first I don't I don't really know if insurance covers I've again done claims and have never been paid permit from my insurance so I I don't know if that's I guess it depends on your insurance because mine doesn't pay it so I'm just putting that out there um Can permit fees be removed from the 50% calculation just a question um and um what we're saving if we're s if if we're taking away money from the city is it only being taken away from Enterprise funds and does it matter um on what we're losing as a city in general funds because I I know there's something about what you can move and use and Enterprise funds is one so that's just another thing and just out there because I've spoken to at least five different officials through different barrier islands and all of them have told me don't don't do it that's what's their recommendation don't wave fees so I'm just putting it there and I can I mean I won't give them their names because I didn't say I would but five different um cities said that was not a smart move on their part that have had effect on Storms I think it would be helpful to do the analysis for you because there is such public interest in it absolutely and so that when you do make your decision it's very transparent to the public why you made correct the decision instead of you didn't do it and that wasn't the nice thing to do or you did do it and that was a fiscally prudent thing to do because of XYZ correct and could it be there's enough we're getting enough questions from the public I don't think it's a bad topic to talk about yeah but definitely would want to know if that could be removed from 50% calculations and why are we doing that so I'm pretty sure it cannot I'm pretty sure it cannot as well but we'll confirm but just important to I never looked it up I I forgot about that all right we have two minutes and two topics I think we should have an extension to 11 to be safe just to be safe motion to extend to 11 Second City Clerk yes yes yes yes yes all right next um a request from the staff for us to clarify what we want to do for the holidays I think um while that might not be everyone's top priority I think it's important for us to be able provide some things that kind of have a sense of normaly so there three things that we normally do for for the Christmas holiday is Christmas decorations we do the tree lighting and the concert in the park and also the boat parade on the same day as a tree lighting um just need to provide the staff some kind of Direction whether we want to move forward with the contract for the decorations whether we want to have the event whether we want to have the build parade the decorations are on blind pass and Gulf Boulevard correct yes and in in heran park right and they cost how much what's our contract for it's a little over $75,000 okay and then do we have a cost for the event for the tree lighting event is that uh is that stuff that's sitting somewhere still intact or destroyed that I don't know I do know we lost a lot at the rec center so it could not be intact the concert would be the typical price point of hiring a band and putting that together most of the food is volunteer from the business community and the firefighters and then the boat parade we could allow the owners to organize on their own rather than us doing it this year and so if there's interest in that they can organize that would be our preference for the boat parade yes sir no one more I I have one comment on on on the the holidays um and this is from um as a mom okay because um this year um or this month because of Halloween um again not not in comparison to but for for kids it's very important but um we've already canceled three events that have to do with Halloween at least you know we ran the pet parade and this what it's going to be my announcement that it is cancelled in the Donar neighborhood in lazario because we had a lot of sponsorships from the local businesses and of course we're not going to be getting those sponsorships but the one comment from my daughter is are we canceling Halloween so again it's not to say that we're normal um there's nothing but normal and I don't think everything will be normal in in December um but it's important um for families for kids and for us as well whether you have children or not um you know whatever you celebrate obviously um I'm not saying it's just Christmas um but whatever holiday you celebrate um is important mentally for a lot of people so I I would be in favor to continue with um the the holiday events in heran concert um decorations to the extent of what we can of whatever is available or what or whatnot and and maybe um commissioner muhal because I know pasor gril Association many times um spearheaded uh the boat parade leaving from Mar pier and again maritimer right we don't know how safe it is but maybe um someone privately can try to see if they organize it um but at least try to keep as much as possible would be my recommendation um or Direction I Would like to give the city um again it's not to say to keep things normal because we know it's not normal but as much as possible I agree I think it's important to keep our sense of community and the events that make this a great place and the things people love and I think we should I think we should do what we can so sounds like we have consensus on the holiday events in the park and then that leaves the $60,000 for decorations or 75 I mean I I think that uh I know in past years the Christmas decorations has been a a topic of much discussion contention and much contention and uh and this year it may not be because people have other things to think about but I uh uh you know for the for the relatively small amount of money that it is that's already budgeted I think it's a I I think it would be a good thing for the city and and you know on the one hand you could say well we should spend that $75,000 to hire three extra trucks for a day to pick up trash in case it's not picked up by then because do we really want candy canes hanging over piles of trash but I have full confidence that we're going to have things pretty cleaned up by by Christmas and and I think the Christmas decorations are nice thing so my my preference would be to keep those so what you're saying is you don't want me to get those big scissors out that the mayor [Laughter] referenced we need some kind of consensus some yes did we say we got a motion in a second and then oh do we need a motion for it I thought we just need we're all getting kind of tired we just need direction so I just need one more person two people have said yes G to fall asleep it's called falling asleep by the count we yes yes okay thank you there we go the Grinch and Grinch too abstain um okay so then we have um the last the item for discussion so you know the femous 50% rule is convoluted um so one of the things I thought might be however you feel it might be worth um so we have a you know we looked at doing another Workshop or a town hall uh first week or second week of November I forget what the what the date was um so what I was thinking is I could we could invite maybe an appraiser that specializes in doing this type of work and just help people understand what the difference might be between what's what the female letter says and then you know what an appraisal might do for them help them understand what the cost Associated might be um just to give people more information as they're navigating this process um I I know a lot of people in the industry um former female coordinator in Naples a lot of appraisers highly qualified people and i' be happy to reach out and invite and and have a panel of one two or three of them um just like we did last night but rather than us it would be these individuals just just to give people some ideas options more information so that as they're making these decisions they can do it you know on actual uh facts okay so I we'll look at do we have a date that was voted on I ask one question just on that because I'm I'm good about having resources but I want to make sure that we're not doing something that we're not supposed to be doing because I know mayor you're saying you know people but I want to make sure is that okay as as a as the mayor or as a com a commission to be able to um I don't want to say we're solic soliciting business right because they get paid appr appraisers get paid so I mean it's a legal question I'm saying should we be giving you volunteering their time and out there you shouldn't be taking anything in exchange like you can't say well I'll get a discount on my house if I invite you to you are I'm just want to make sure that we're being I the only thing I thought is if we could reach out to any of them that said look if we have a whole city full of people almost like we're doing an RFQ and then but we don't have to do anything other than this as a panel I'm saying if we if we wanted to just like with the trash to pass on the discount we say look if if we had 50 people that wanted to do it or here's some resources here you know call these people they may provide a discount for people in these situations but best if we don't get involved with that at all stay away from it these are volunteers it's a panel they're going to come donate their expertise for an hour they can we can ask them questions and then that's it just for process clarification so you'd want to notice to town hall with the commission and this expert of panels or is it just do it together volunteers are here because we've had other volunteers do a notice of a town hall and let say one or more elected and appointed officials may be in attendance so we with did the poll yesterday do we have a result on what date so the the date that you're available commissioner resi is not available Okay so I don't know what I don't I was waiting on Robinson and then I was going to alert the two of you that there's a conflict okay so I was only available on the 13th correct and I'm in a conference which is it's business so I can't get out of it so I mean again I don't know if we all have to be in in this Workshop of course I would want to hear it but I'm physically nowhere close yeah when if we do the panel rather than the commission and we record it and we can notice it that hey one or more of the Commissioners may be here we just won't be it'll be specifically dedicated to helping navigate this FEMA situation with appraisals in I know in the past you know the the we've done uh the city has done you know like a hurricane preparedness Expo or something like that I mean would it be better to do it in that kind of a format like you know so we there's so many options here so the library has been set up as a resource center so that's one option where we just say we Market it and we say we have these people available we've been doing that with mental health we had someone say I'll volunteer just for to provide the resource so that's one format I did want the town halls to still save some space for staff MH so if we're going to do a mix that we can kind of track with you on the topic of the panelist with and I think it's important that you're all there so maybe we can just keep polling till we find a date but but um just to keep consistency through the end of the year we also um the we're working through FEMA right now to actually host an entire barrier Beach Island FEMA sponsored presentation where FEMA will come in um we're actually looking at using one of the hotel conference rooms because we're expecting you know over a hundred people or so so there's a lot of moving parts right now so I just would want to understand like what form format how casual do you want it or how formal presentation Wise Wise but there's so many ways we can launch this well you're bringing up stuff I didn't even know so you know like I didn't I didn't know that you're planning something maybe at one of the conven you know conference room or whatever and I and I to be honest I mean I've been to the library but mostly because I had to work and use internet so I didn't even really look at the resources there but again that's back to like do people know you know I I know we post might be on the website I'm not always there um but how do we let people know and and maybe the same appraisers like you're talking about or I mean you said it was a FEMA packet if that's what they're doing is that what FEMA's going to be doing at those FEMA will be helping with all these technical 50% determinations and how to navigate it right yeah but the mayor's technical expert is very different finite expertise that would be more specific it's up to your well are are we saying we're looking for another we're going to look for another date anyways right CU keep the town halls the way they were but maybe have another date for for the not do it on that same date I mean we're doing an hour and a half for the town halls I that I don't think the panel should take more than 20 minutes and then 10 minutes for questions I think we do it the same date I don't think we're going to overwhelm people if we started doing them two commission meetings and two Town Halls every month yeah that's too much and the staff that's good yeah but now but we are we saying to look for another date are you going to put out another date or you just going to ask November is pretty tight because we're all right here right now we've got four minutes we come up with a date November 6 we have a District 1 Town Hall then November 11th is obviously veterans W day I posed November 13th the following week the mayor is out of town and then the following week is Thanksgiving what is the 14th 14th that's fine I'll have to attend by Zoom I'm not available that day in person just you know because this is my work conference I it's the 13th the 14th and the 15th it's three days that I'm I'm out and sorry and the 15th I could make it back by the evening because it's still like about 1:00 if you want to do a Friday that's fine I think we'll have nobody there on a Friday does anyone want to do a Saturday morning that be fine I mean I'm good with it I mean a lot of people work you know so yeah I mean know we could say Friday but it could be any day it could be Friday that no people don't come it could be a Saturday no people will come but if you're interested you're going to come Saturday morning they might come I think and just to do something different rather than doing it in the evening after work might might open up a different option so I would I would be good with it be fine with the Saturday are we talking about the 9th or the 16th the 16th I think or I think that's what we were saying I'm 16 16 mayor are you available I will tell you in a second going I have a flight that day and I don't know remember what time it is 9:00 a.m. the nth is the nth still work the nth yeah I'm good anytime before the 16th in November so the 9th is good work for everybody just sa me just keep me out the ninth is my step kids wedding so I don't think I can miss that like putting it out in the public I have a wedding what are we doing on the sixth I'm sorry that's District district one district one town hall I mean in in this particular case is it more important that we just do it's up to you I don't want to I didn't want to rob you of that since that's already been on the books so if you are wanting to do that we can L I mean yeah let's I mean that already schedu if the six if the sixth works for everybody let's just make it the Citywide town hall on the sixth and we'll scrap your figure out the district one thing when it makes more sense to do that okay I'll s a calendar invite thank you all right we have 60 seconds staff reports city clerk I do have a couple things so it's about election I get a lot of calls election is happening in the city of St b beach for November 5th it will be here at City Hall if you normally vote at the community center you will now be voting at City Hall in the commission chamber 78 am to 7: p.m. it's posted on our City's website and on the social media we also have uh qualification books are available but we need an extension for five minutes extend for five minutes second see clerk commissioner Robinson commiss commissioner ziki yes vice mayor she said yes yes commissioner marott yes may patella yes thank you um qualification books are available in the city clerk's office for District 2 and District 4 election is March 11th in 2025 and you can drop off your ballots at the library that is still a place for you to drop off your ballots and I didn't mention Warren Webster is still a voting thank you city manager no report City attorney not tonight district one nothing to report District Two the trash is being picked up District three I did kind of say peper raade has been post phone for next year I'll just say thank you District 4 uh yes I'll be having a District 4 community meeting at uh the picnic Pavilion at Hurley Park on Wednesday October 30th at 5:30 pm thank you sir I know things are not normal and I think it's going to be a long time before we get back to normal but it's good to see some things that are comfortable coming back to our city and I want to thank our city staff for working so diligently this past week with the Cory Avenue Chamber of Commerce to get the market back up and running by what date city manager I apologize November 4th was that or that is our Target dat yes okay so two weeks from or a week from Sunday um you know it's just it's good to have just good to have that back and then we also have a concert series in the park uh this Saturday from 6: to 9:00 p.m. um so I'll be there I hope to see many of you um just to have a couple hours away from all the things that we're dealing with I think be great for everyone so um I'm optimistic about the future of our town I think we have a lot of work ahead of us um but I'm encouraged by the support that I have from the other Commissioners from our city staff and to see this room packed two days in a row um it's very encouraging to see how many people are invested in our community and who want to do what's right for for our town with that thank you everyone we are joined e e e e e e for