##VIDEO ID:vBQR4EdXiXo## e e e e e e e e e mam clerk order oh we're call order oh okay roll call yet we all stand for the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right Madam clerk roll call member Hurley here member young here member dashel chair Lowry here and then for the planning board we have member Perry here member hubard here member Angelus here member grocott here thank you okay well as I think you all aware why we're here today uh Brandon prepared this lovely little sheet here that tells us a bit of the overview um very succinct and well done I couldn't I would take an hour for me to say all that stuff so it make sense and Brandon I think you're going to pretty much go forward with the beginning uh and we'll have kind of an overview of that kind of thing and then we'll decide I mean if you have any questions that's we're here for to answer how we received this um I assume you've all got copies of the proposed changes hopefully you've read them but we'll certainly go over all them at this point so Brandon you want to take over sure and Welcome to our our new members um I didn't want to take too much time the PowerPoint that unfortunately we can't get up on the screen today but um I just wanted to briefly cover the the overview uh what got us to this point and some of the major changes of the two divisions that we're going to be talking about today so this has been a two-year process with the historic preservation board we are looking at amendments to better align the district standards with the original purpose and intent both of the pass gril district and the community redevelopment District 8th Avenue um the intent of that is really to preserve the existing Bonafide historic structures those that are locally designated or designated as part of the district in the passag gril overlay develop new structures that are compatible with the area so when there is Redevelopment that they look and they fit in with the context of the other properties and to respect the unique pre- zoning character of pasor gril there are a lot of permissions in passor grail related to allowing multif family structures and and mixed use block by block That You Don't See elsewhere in the city so the intent really to preserve that uh through these amendments currently the city has a design review process we actually have a design review scheduled today for the regular historic board meeting but we're looking at adding more robust design standards with qualified review review by an architect um rather than just staff and ensuring that when lots are Consolidated especially long 8th Avenue that they are done in a way that is careful with the context and with the character of the area making sure that they respect the historic layout of pasag Grail so some of the major changes in the passag gril overlay District we have two divisions we're talking about today there are really three that are relevant to the passag gril area but the division 28 is the historic preservation ordinance that is not being addressed through any of the Amendments that the historic preservation board has undertaken they focus primarily on division 20 which is an overlay division for most of pasor gril and then division 40 which is specific to the 8th Avenue area it's all of the properties along 8th Avenue all of the properties on the south side of 9th Avenue and then several of the properties along 7th Avenue on the North side so for the major changes to the passig gril overlay again it's most properties south of 32nd excluding the community redevelopment District 8th Avenue as well as the marina the restaurant just south of the venad Delmar bridge and the City's Fire Station lot the biggest change is that building to the overlay will now be a requirement previously and currently uh the overlay is an option it's something that property owners who are building a single family home have the option to build to the overlay the heighten design standards or they could build the typical Suburban standards of a a residential home the requirement would now be to build to the overlay uh the board is looking at strength and standards for design review like I just mentioned so design standard identification would actually be on the plans instead of just verbal at hearings the city would have an architect actually look these standards over to make sure that they're being met and the city is in the process of looking at putting together a design guide book that is forthcoming we don't have that ready yet but it's something we would be looking at having as a more modular adoption along with the overlay um currently there are no standards related to where driveways need to be placed on a new single family lot these changes would make it so that any lot with an Alleyway that is accessible and more than 15 ft wide would be required to have the driveway in the rear of the property this would allow for street parking allow for the the maintenance of that that historic Frontage along the Avenues any lot consolidation or subdivision would require historic preservation Board review currently it's required by the city commission this would add another step the historic preservation board would review any kind of lot split or combination of property for development purposes before moves on to City commission and the the final major change there are other elements that we're addressing but it would prohibit any kind of accessory structure in the front yard um currently if a site is set or a home is set back far enough there could be a garage in the front yard a pool other accessory structures this would move all of the accessory structures to the backyard Brandon terara is on now great and terce alier she is our um consultant for this she if she'd be happy to answer questions uh moving on to the eth Avenue um major changes are design standard implementation despite eth Avenue being historic in character most of the structures along 8th Avenue are on either the local historic registry or designated as part of the district there are not actually any design standards currently for new development along 8th Avenue this would move the pastor Grill overlay design standards onto 8th Avenue they are more or less mirrored between the two divisions any kind of rooftop mechanical equipment would need to be screened there was a recent development recently where there was not screening it's something that moving forward any new development you you shouldn't be able to see the mechanical equipment from the street if you're standing there as a pedestrian it would go through design review the same as the passor grill overlay the requests would come forward to the historic preservation board for review and it would also and this is in line with what I was just mentioning related to the subdivision and lot consolidation it would set a maximum building length um it would prevent anyone being able to come in to buy up half a block and then consolidate all the properties and develop one building that just runs the entire block face the city's development standards for 8th Avenue promote putting buildings very close to the street and having them be accessible from the sidewalk but it would prevent um just an entire block wide development and overdevelopment of that block there would need to be breaks between buildings um both to preserve the Alleyways as well as just to preserve the the design intent of the overlay so that's all all I really have I just wanted to really summarize the main points um what got us here today this has been about a two-year process this will come back to the planning board for a formal vote we were looking at setting up a workshop between the historic preservation board and the planning board from this it'll move on to a workshop with the historic preservation board and the city commission and then in the future we'll bring this back to you there's quite a bit of content here we just wanted to have an opportunity to go through if you had any questions if you had any suggestions that we can look into to before it comes forward to you for a formal vote chair anything else you'd like I don't think so uh we kind of set it up this way obviously this is fairly complex and I'm sure you hopefully have some questions about where we're going um I think one of the things we noticed that pretty much everything that existed in the code was okay and and actually worked although I thought maybe we didn't enforce some of the things as well as we Poss possibly could and I think we're getting more for lack of better word cooperation and doing that as we go forward anyway so these are just more areas that I think uh tweak what we already have and there's reasons behind all these uh and so i' i' i' prefer if you all may would ask some questions maybe that'll open up the discussions of certain areas uh so can we go forward that way if not you know I we just talk about I think we we should start about 8th Avenue first which is the cdea and a lot of I didn't know this for a long time when I was at on the historic board well you all understand the PC overlay supposedly applies to everything south of 32nd Avenue which is you know a couple blocks south of the Dawn uh but in reality it doesn't every there's certain areas that are zoned to be in the overlay and certain areas that are not in the over lay um 8th Avenue before that was rezoned that area was it was zoned differently but it was in the overlay and when they created the crde EA they removed it from the overlay and part of the glaring problem with that was they also removed all the historic language that goes with the overlay and so that was a glaring Omission I think uh that we needed to rectify so now we're trying to add language the crd section 40 that mirrors more of the overlay since it's not technically in the overlay but it's the heart and soul of pass and Grill really that's the most important area that the historical aspect has to be provided for so that's the main change in section 40 although there might be some individual things I know Brandon mentioned some so dealing with section 40 itself does anybody have any any questions to why we are making these recommendations I think my first question would be just after watching your meeting last month the recurring theme was we have no teeth to enforce any of this are these changes going to solve that uh yes and no okay um it's going to tighten things up and by adding mostly uh language in what's in both the overlay and section 40 it puts the onus more on the Builder to show us uh the languages and that I think Terry came up with that which was really good that they have to show in their application how their proposed uh plans fit into the compatibility and historic nature of passag grill and so I think that puts them certainly on notice that it can't be ignored because what was happening if you watch the meeting then you know that a lot of what's what's happening when people had the option to build either under the zone or the overlay they'd choose the overlay because allowed them to get build a bigger house because the overlay allows for different setbacks due to the unique nature of the small Lots at the over at the overlay well so they're building this giant houses Max to the very Max and but not following the recommendations that we want it to be historical and be compatible because there was no teeth in that follow what I'm saying so we're getting so the spirit of that I think was being technically violated but you know they could do that because that in so some people don't many people build you know historical looking beautiful houses just kind of up to the the Builder themselves so I think what we're doing now doesn't give us necessarily the teeth because we're only a recommendation you know we're you Advisory Board uh but it puts the public on more notice of what we want and it allows us with along with the design guide book I think to be able to the architect or whoever is from the city to reject some of the plans if they aren't fitting within that uh what you're asking like getting more teeth is a whole another thing we would have you know we're just trying to tighten up what we have existing right now right I think in the future as time goes on we may want to look depending on the feel of the public we may want to change things but for the moment I think the first step is just to clean up what we already have okay and then additionally if currently if you were building to your Zone what you were zoned in and not to the overlay you weren't required to come to Historic preservation board although we've changed that with the resolution and we at least present it to this board but it um if everything comes under the overlay every bill will come to this board whereas right now only if you're building to the overlay is re right I mean and actually The Way It Was Written that was discretionary on the city to even show us that the overlay builds but they always did but we weren't seeing the the underlying Zone build which you know in other words the homes you could build north of the Dawn you can still build down and pass the grill even though they don't really necessarily look like pass a grill okay which is very you know there's a lot of different styles down there uh but another problem and this goes you know to to section um 20 is that when when when Builders had or owners had the choice of building under the overlay or the underlying Zone you might get and there's there's a perfect example I can show you a picture of where two new homes were built side by side one over the O under the overlay and one under the underlying Zone the underlying Zone one had to abide by setbacks which put it their front the house further back so they had a view out their front window and they could see to the South and Etc they could see the beach and then the house right next door built under the overlay and they're allowed to build 10t out towards the sidewalk thereby eliminating the whole view you know and so this doesn't necessarily Rectify that but it it prevents that kind of from happening in the future you know so we'll have more consistency uh of the homes that are built and not have that kind of staggered back and forth look you know in that particular example not only is the house build under the overlay come out 10 ft further than the front it comes out about 5T further than the back just and that's the downside I think is the overlay does allow bigger houses which you know but I think when we add these design reviews and the uh the um design guide book which will have a lot of examples of the older homes there and you I'm sure you all have been down there you can see them you can see a brand new house some of them are fit in perfect some are you know okay and some are just kind of like you know I I refer to them as they're they're nice architectural homes and they may be beautifully designed but do they are they compatible with the historic district you know and uh I think that's what we're we're not telling people how to put color paint their house and stuff like that it's just a matter of trying to make the mass and scale be compatible with everything else which these these ordinances have always said that but we haven't really you know had the enforcement aspect of it yeah that that's why I was asking that like that house last month that's slated to uh replace the one in disrepair the it obviously didn't fit what you envisioned but all you could really do is change the grage door facade so this this won't solve that problem it well I I think it I think it would help solve that problem it doesn't solve that particular problem what it does is when somebody when a builder is going to look at what they have to do they're going to see that as again I said they have to show how that home fits the intent of the historic neighborhood and if you recall that meeting uh the architect it was you know very nice and you know I I asked her well how is that compatible and she basically said well there's there's maybe five other houses like that so clearly had had already done their homework because they knew what they building was a modern home you I call it the Jetson home you know where and then there's a few down there and uh you know it's eclectic it's okay but I think if you're going to if you're going to seriously have a historic district then we we have to you know be serious about it and so uh I think all of these and if you want to be like like Brandon talked about the the alleys if youve down to Pastor Grill the southern end of Pastor Grill basically south of 10th is the really old area and it's all the homes there are probably except for the new ones are probably all 100 years years old and they were all built using the alleys in the back uh so you didn't have a garage facing the street you didn't have a driveway facing the street you didn't have a a a curb cut taking away a parking space in front of the street and I'm sure that's I mean that's what the alleys are for um as time went on I think we kind of forgot about that and there's just a few houses that have been built recently where you know um they have a garage faces The Front Street they have a curb cut that takes away a spot they got a a driveway that has their Car golf cart parked in it and you know that's just the way things are uh and they don't even use the alley and so I think that's something that we would like to make a requirement and I think Brandon we talked about it we had a question a while ago whether 15 ft all the alleys it's really the East West alleys you're talking about more than the north south alleys are 15 ft and I think most of them are that way and we might have to modify that of some the idea would be can you get your car through there it may require another side effect may be requiring the city to clean up some of those East West alleys to make sure we have egress and you know along there so like any other questions on on Mr L you just said the architect could re I believe would reject a plan so is the architect working for the city is he working with one of the panels who's the architect working with point is he involved with the process okay my understanding is that would be someone that's employed by the city okay and maybe reject is too strong a word I I think the idea would be well I I don't think it is a too strong word I don't think the way it's set up now if somebody for example couldn't show why how the house is compatible to the historical dist historic district then I think the architect could reject those plans I mean that's going to be something that goes on kind of behind closed doors that you know we aren't really a part of but uh it C put certainly puts all the builders on notice I mean one argument be was why would anybody reasonable person let's say want to buy a house and pass a grill which is going to be a lot's going to be very expensive and the charm and uniqueness is the historical nature of it so why would somebody want to build it buy a house there and then just build this structure that doesn't get along at all uh and I think sometimes it's because they don't really have the right notice or you know they're out of state they hire an architect out of state they come down and you know then they've got their money on their plans and they want to build it so I think uh the guidelines that set out these new guidelines it's going to put a lot more notice in their behalf that I don't think you'll have Behavior as much Behavior like that anyway I think uh so although I don't think it says the words reject in the um proposed change it does talk about uh acceptance or recommendations so sequencing it would go to the city first then the architect review then to this panel then to the board of adjustments according to this and then to the commission uh no split assembly or anything like that oh you mean that kind of stuff yes yeah the the lot of the lot splits and in combination of wood and that's always kind of been part of I I believe and I'm not an expert on all this kind of stuff I think a lot of that was part of the regular lots and in the non-historic areas of St Pete Beach and I think uh when the crd was created it kind of forgot to talk about that you know and so even though when it was the overlay it was talked about and so what we're concerned about is people buying lots and just putting them together without any any citizen overview and that ultimately means the commission or what other board again we're only advisory as far as that goes but that seemed to be a loophole if you want to say it that kind of got forgotten I think that we're trying to tighten up and as far as one somebody owns a lot whiches a lot then has a design that is not approved legally this is for the lawyer then legally we're covered because that is up to a real estate agency to to close disclose to a potential buyer what their parameters are for what they're able to put on that lck prior team acquiring that lot well I don't really have the answer to that because it's not I I don't know my my general answer would be I don't think it's happened yet and and I'm not sure it ever would happen and so you know we can kind of do only so much right now I don't think you can make anything for proof If someone really wants to sue somebody or or whatever um we've had legal throughout this while we've been making these decisions and proposals that have you know been uh okay have not raised that issue um I mean I suppose if somebody decided they wanted to build I mean it's the same argument I suppose could you build a five-story house in some other part of the city well that's against the ordinance but if you want to sue the city over I guess you could you know who knows how it would come out um I think just just my personal opinion I think most people are probably Cooperative with the way it goes just a matter of having them see it in black and white knowing which where they're supposed to go CH chairman may I say something yeah sure um part of part of what we were doing and it may be getting a little bit lost in the conversation is it's not that we're reaching out for power or to change things significantly from stopping or starting it had to do with the residence that can sit on our boards all the boards the board of adjustment and the historic and Etc and that a lot of us have been residents or for longer periods of time than some of our city officials that seem to turn over in the building department and Etc this allows us or we're trying to get to where they are speaking to us or getting input from people or residents that may have more time in the area may have seen things that have transpired and able to to explain how this came to be or how this is being looked at a lot of the the things that you're going to hear about in 20 and 40 as we go through them is a lot of cleaning up of language it's a lot of how things were perceived by one group perhaps when it was written and actually there's a lot of history there too How It Was Written what it's the what its goal was and then how it was administered the first time uh that it came up and was able to see you know what happened what transpired what did the city officials see out of what was written down and now we're trying to come through and kind of clean that language up and tighten it up so that we can be helpful in trying to guide people going forward not change what's going on necessarily just be able to give input that the whole point of review is not to necessarily change what they're doing it's being able to say you know these these type of things aren't allowed in this area you know for whatever reason or be able to say you know this this came to be because this happened before and this is what we're trying the goal is in these new cleaned up uh ordinances thank you I have a question about and I don't know if you're going to walk through the document sequentially or whatever um but one of the areas that I was interested in particular had to do with Building height for a lot of different reasons um and especially thinking about all the the flooding that's going on um I found it to be inconsistent between the first set of U Division and the second one um and if you look at some of them like if you go to section 40.8 Building height um it's not really well defined it's better defined in section 20.02 but between the two of them I did not find it consistent and even within 20.02 there seemed to be if you did it one way you could your house could be two feet higher than if you did it the other way so you didn't even come to the same answer so I had a lot of questions around how Building height was being calculated or defined in fact if you go to uh letter g in 4014 it says Building height but then it mostly talks about setbacks in relation to Building height so I don't want to jump around too much I don't know if you're walking through the document or how this process works could you I'm sorry could you tell me what was the last 41 that's 40 first the first place is 20.02 yeah I've got that one okay and then it's mentioned again in 4.08 yes and then it's mentioned again in 4014 okay that's why I was looking for 14 and I just thought if they were more consistent it would be easier CU some of them I was looking for a definition or where you were measuring from okay well I I I can kind of first off off I wish I could tell you how they measure height okay that's what our staff does and I'm they do a good job but it's always kind of like isn't there a simple you know answer in you know grade how high is is your property at that location etc etc we've fought over that for a long time whether it be if base flood elevation is supposed to apply to certain areas what's not supposed to apply to certain areas some places in the CL code they say they include the base flood elevation some they don't you know so we've had many many discussions about that and of course we're concerned down there because all the old homes are one or two stories because they didn't have to deal with FEMA and so the reality is with FEMA you got have to add a story to everything and so that's going to change the heights quite a bit and of course we're very conscientious of not getting too high down there because of the neighborhoods unfortunately I won't say unfortunately but but FEMA exists we're going to have to deal with that you're going to have to have three-story buildings okay or can build three story buildings you know you might just say well isn't 10 ft of floor 10 ft per floor fine 30 feet well you know what about the base flood elevation well we got another 8 feet what about you know where the ground is well it all depends and I think we've kind of come to the conclusion that it's about 40 ft at ITS m as you look at it from the ground to the top this is a maximum of 35 and then let me let me explain that okay and so that was for most of the homes we were concerned that on 8th Avenue which has you know a very almost all those there I can tell you I've lived I've lived down there since 83 okay there's been one thing built on 8 8th Avenue all right which is the Dewey uh Berkeley Beach Club that's it so you talk about over for almost 45 years has been one thing built so it's not like people are rushing to build things down there necessarily all the rest of those buildings were probably built in the teens or in the 20s or pretty close to it so they're all very similar in height and and I think we all recognize what a unique gy 8th Avenue is that's really unlike almost anything else on the west coast of Florida really and so we're concerned uh and frankly when the the Berkeley Beach Club was buil it certainly seems so much higher than everything else around it all right but of course there's we have now we have FEMA we had a whole whole discussion about why does the base flood elevation apply when you can't live on the first floor in a commercial building anyway well that got us nowhere legally I guess so uh another way we and if you looked at the former Division I mean uh section 40 the it it had I I what it it said maybe 25 feet or 30 feet or something like that was a maximum 38 feet allowed to build to a maxim I think it was what it didn't have it didn't mention whether it was base flood elevation or not just said maximum and of course I'm reading that as a lay person on guess and I say well whatever the number was let's say it was 30 feet or 35t that's taller than all the buildings that already exist there you know so it make so don't they mean from ground on up why why should Bas flood elevation be applied when you can't live on the first floor anyway so we spent a long time going through that and legals involvement and so the way we thought we'd deal with it is in section 40 put that that language in that says in sec in in uh 08 or that says what page are you want 40.8 actually should be actually it should be 4.08 I think 107 of 111 that says height shall not exceed 35t which includes the base F elevation so we tried to eliminate that argument about does it apply does it not apply and we're just going from as you look at it on the ground up to 35 feet can you build three stories in 35 ft of course you can but you're not building something 40 feet or 45 ft and then putting a a rooftop Elevator Shaft on and things of that nature it makes it looks like it's 50 ft fet and you know we felt that that eliminated the concern that someone could then build another structure that's twice as tall as the historic structures there and although it's confusing in a way I mean compared to the other definitions within section 40 we try to make it as clear as possible but that but that's the reason we even had a drone fly over that took the measurements of all the buildings in the uh DEA and I will say with the exception of the hurricane which was really done after all the I mean pre this and as an outlier I think as far as you know the the structures along there and I don't think there was anything much higher than 30 ft and that's the the I don't think it was that high that's the back end of uh the hotel there which has three stories along the alley but they're short and so you know I think we look forward when we have something built on eth AV we want to fit in with the historic structures and if they're twice as big it's really a whole different mass and scale and I don't think we think that 35 ft is is onerous to anybody because you can certainly build three stories which is the most you can build anyway so what you just explained makes me feel like this is not accomplishing your intent well we it he did miss a little bit so what we're doing is when the original crd EA was put together it was listed as a maximum height of 35 ft when the first structure was built on 8th Avenue in Redevelopment the city applied base flood elevation to the bottom of it and extended it the 10 ft or 11 ft for base flat elevation making the structure 10 ft larger than anything else around it so our goal was to come back and pull that height overall height requirement back down to where the people that designed the ER crde EA in the beginning we can try and Achieve that so what we did is we said the max would be 35 ft and the B BFE has to come out of that 35 ft so that most of the structures are twostory structures that are on uh 8th Avenue at this point the only one that's got the third story is the Keystone um but it again it falls outside of this because it was done at a different time but the whole point was trying to match all the the buildings that run up and down eth Avenue for the most part whether only have two living levels and then we had to add the base flat elevation so they could still get the two living levels above base flat elevation okay all right so yeah yeah so it's you're not talking about measuring from where the ground currently is you're you're talking about Real a true 35 ft of altitude at the top that's what the goal that's what's the goal is supposed to be yes okay okay so but if you look at 4014 letter G number one it talks about 35 ft and he height measured from grade well again BF I I I think we we have to yes I think grade we're talking about the dirt right understand okay right and so maybe that should be cleaned up and and say and make it match what it says I think that's my point if you look at the sections where you talk about Building height through this document I found it very inconsistent which added to the confusion so I'm just saying maybe that needs to be cleaned up a little bit so that it's clearer I I I actually I agree with you 100% I that's part of the purpose of us being here so I think yes I think we have to be consistent throughout in what we said but uh that was the reason why we chose that height and the reasons why right so I guess Brandon that that makes sense we can just clean that up to to make it identical to the language in 40.8 unless you got unless you have yeah something you need to say about it yeah and I think um I think we definitely can clean it up that makes a lot of sense um based on how you've just described it I did want to say that item G is only going to apply in very limited cases I think the intent is for any new commercial development which of course is going to be at grade in 8th Avenue to be limited to the 35 ft like member Hurley just explained item G would apply specifically when that ground floor is not flood proofed and 8th Avenue requires um effectively commercial on the ground floor so there would almost always be that that ground uh ground floor flood proofing but this would be in the case where for whatever reason that the development does elevate that first floor two base flood elevation if they were to get that additional five to six feet bonus from ba from a base flood elevation in that case they would have to set back the portion of the building above 35 ft but that could be explained better I agree completely so I'll work on that I I think another place related to that is like when you get into the balconies like if you look at 4014 number five balcony 6 feet maximum May project into the front or side street setbacks and that can be read it's only a 6ot balcony or it can project 6 feet into the side street and then in another place it talks about a couple feet from the curve so if you go down to uh G number two again some of the wording is just got to cleaned up a little bit um so that it's clear what you're exactly getting to and along that line I think Brandon correct me if I'm wrong I honestly you know when we looked at some of this stuff some of the stuff was already in the previous and it wasn't like something we said didn't get that I'm a nitpicker I don't mean to say you are but I probably didn't follow a lot of that and uh and and I yes thank you I think well we did have a pretty heated disc discussion about the arcades which is right but I think when we talk about the 6 feet maximum we're not saying the balcony can only be 6 feet we're just saying it can go six feet over correct I mean that should be clarified because but then there's another point where there's a curb in couple of feet and so I just was finding it not where was the thing about the curb where did you say that was at I think that pertains to the arcade sections okay there's a couple places measure in near about open balconies so again I was just looking for that consistency and Clarity I think and Tera Brandon weren't we going to Define arcade because we didn't have that defined which might clarify some of that for you Cindy yeah there's some things we haven't defined in this and we it wasn't a heated discussion we had a discussion we do especially especially for arcades and balconies like he brought up we do have a few different sections so I think just consolidating them all one section we clean it up I agree and um the last thing I have on this is really um just a typo um but I think from and at on letter G 4014 letter G measured from at grade I just question if it should just be from grade because you have two prepositions there yes yeah thank you I also had a point for consistency on 403 going back to the land again going fromation board to the board of adjustments and then the city commission but when you talk about the same process under 2014 you admit the board of adjustment City commission so process whether it's under under Section I I would assume but Brandon may be able to answer that because some of the when when they created section 40 they really didn't mirror a lot of things out of section 20 and that's why we were trying to clean some of that up splits partial vacation vacation of ements and then it's the same title under 2014 that that should be added into 2014 as well you're correct um and there are cases where subdivisions need to go to the board of adjustments so I'll get that out it in and then I had a question on the definitions is there a reason in section section 20 or in in section 20 why the um term accessory is not defined because it's used throughout the document is it defined earlier in the overall code of adjustments or or I mean the overall document and that's why it was I see there was an accessory structure envelope that was deleted but the term accessory itself would us through out but I don't see it's defined Reon we do have a code wide Definition for accessory so hey Bron um I remember discussion last year at the planning board about assembly of more than two lots that is something for the future is that correct that we wanted to incorporate into that is in our overlay we did include that let me see here and this would only apply within the overlay that might be something Citywide that's that's looked at but that is in see here that is 20.07% and it's related to assembly of parcels again that's we talk about it as well in the 8th Avenue but that's related more to the the building massing but 20.07% and I think just as an overview we we really the the key words to me is is compatibility and mass and scale so you know if somebody wants to buy a couple Lots next to each other I understand that but they we we're trying to keep it from looking like one big giant structure you know so you have breaks or changes and and you things with those in that uh fashion so I think not that it's happened but I think you know there's some concern at least the citizens down there and anybody should be in the historical district is you know uh it developed that way over hundreds of years there just never really been you know with the exception of maybe I'm going to call the if youall remember the old Bush estate but that but that was three houses you know that was three separate houses all owned by the same people now they're getting ready to build one structure there uh but that was already joined together and frankly the Design's not too bad I mean it doesn't look it's not like one big giant structure but uh but of course because Pastor girl is a a prime kind of place to be you're concerned about you know someone coming in and buying a whole block and doing something with it you know so this yeah this came up at the planning board last year where the discussion resulted in the planning board having an opinion that no more than two lot should be able to be combined uh right and but that's for something we're working into the future development code so I was just curious how this aligned with and I think our 80 foot linear maximum on a building kind of help with that too there has to be a separation between buildings and as such a separation between lots and land masses correct I have a question 20 um22 building designs um residential where it talks about garage design elements do you know what the allowance is for garage door openings under this like what the height is for that that is going to have to be a Brandon question don't think we have a limitation other than the actual height of the floor we do have floor height limitations T Tara is that correct the height of a garage door hey Brandon I'm uh I'm sorry it's breaking up so bad I just need to know the section so that I can pull it up I I think we're just we're speaking generally about the height of a garage door do we have any limitation other than the floor height limitation I don't believe we proposed anything no we did not and it's I know it's a bizarre question but I'm going to I'm only asking this because of all of the golf carts all the lifted gol carts now are so tall I just hate to limit people to what they can then put in the garage I think we have a general floor height limitation of 14 feet which I I think would cover but that would be um that that would be the only limitation we have currently let's they start making double decker golf seem hug and then on 20 um Point 24 when it talks about the design review and required drawings and it talks about the exhibits and it asked it it says um exhibit should include colors lighting fixtures um specifically so and I know about the design book which hasn't together yet but you are you asking at this point homeowners to provide you specifically what their lighting fishes on their out side of their homes are going to be in order to get approved for or is it more of I plan to have a carriage house look and a carriage house design or I plan to have a coastal look and a Coastal Design um because otherwise you're asking them to then commit to purchasing in order to stock changes Etc well I I would no I mean I would ask you to read the read 2025 which was some of the language of a design book if you'll read that kind of last paragraph there it says specific materials color textures and architectural style are not required so it I I think and this is something that I think Tara and the staff kind of put in that when they prepare their plans they're detailed you know doesn't mean you say oh we don't like blue make it red it's not like that it's just like you just kind of want to see what the whole thing is about uh uh but without obviously the ability to you know tell people what they have to build is that right Tera you're finally we can finally see you you were blank there for a long time yes that's um that's correct I mean the intent is right now when um staff reviews the submitt a lot of them are in black and white and then sometimes some of the design is um not really consistent with what ends up getting built so it's been a little bit of a challenge when you go back and you review some of the building submittals you're um challenged to even see the difference of mass and scale and um you know recently we've been looking at a couple of the residential submittals and because they were providing the texture and color we were able to um further help and assist on how they were either meeting or not meeting the intent of the code so to follow up on that I did find areas where um like materials was crossed out or color was crossed out and then it was introduced later um and also a few typos so they may you may want to again scan the document for those words because it's there's inconsistencies um and one of the questions that I had had to do with um section 20.02 d where it says that um we have to review the number and types of rooms and the internal layout and that surprised me on a historical building because I always thought the exterior of course is extremely important but what if somebody wants to just have one big open room in a bathroom in their house I mean I didn't understand what the intent was to get to the number and types of rooms and the internal layout can you um tell me the reference can on that what section section 20. D Building Design Elements it's in there it didn't definitions it wasn't changed yeah O2 D definitions that's not a that's not anything that we addressed y to jump in I just think it's we all we can control is what the outside looks like and we're not trying to control what the inside looks like so if somebody wants one room with a bathroom in the middle we may not want to go visit that place but I guess they can build that as long as it fits the codes or whatever you know within the city but uh I do have a thought about reasoning behind that though if someone were to have an interior design that has one front door and on the outside it looks like one house and on the inside it's got two doors that go this way and a living room and a dining room and a kitchen and a bathroom and a bedroom that's now no longer a single family home although it looks like one on the inside it's a duplex and maybe it's not supposed to be a duplex so I'm sure at some point someone needs to take a look at those interiors and see what's the real intent of the design behind this house I did also want to say and we I don't know that we've ever seen one at this before this board but there are very limited cases where we do look at the internal design of structures if they are going forward for any kind of adval exemption and there are structure that is open to the public like a designation of a historic um Lobby or something like that that would be something that the board would review at least for those adalum taxing purposes so maybe yeah what I would add is that that this is just a definition so you can rely on that as a building design element if you want to see it but it's not a requirement to provide it it defines what building elements are and I believe that's just a general um architectural definition so that that's what we relied on and that does roll over verbatim from the previous as well I know that but I know you're trying to clean it up yeah no thank you earnestly trying to follow this are they going to have clear guidance and if it's got a specific purpose associated with it maybe that should be stated because I would I would read this and think that I have to give the architect and everything all my plans all this stuff I mean to be doing what I need to be doing to follow the process well there are times too when we're trying to strike a balance on the exterior with window placement and size and scale and it helps to know what the room is behind that window how it's being used and why they may have made that choice for a window and sometimes we can recommend maybe putting a shutter over it or around it to make it match in scale but still give the privacy on that interior space that it needs so I think I still think that could be approached from the issue that's at hand as opposed to a broad issue that doesn't really make sense just my my thought is it seems to be a bit overreaching and if there is a reason like you know the window or perhaps concerned a duplex then those things should be addressed more specifically just my opinion and to save time for the Builder or the homeowner they would have to go back and make that revision and then come back before the board again so you know it's best for them to come forward with as much information as possible at the beginning to to save time for that we can um we can also say it um may be required to be provided um again that's a definition it's not a requirement um I understand that that that seems a little confusing but but really what on the applicant and what they should be drawn to is section 2024 um that and that's the requirements for a design review required drawings some of the issues that happen is sometimes you want to have any definition pretty substantive because if you do run into an issue that then the city can come back and say well that technically is part of the definition even though it's not required in the design review if um for instance someone doesn't want to meet them m in scale you know if they don't have that information um then it's it's not part of the definition of the flexibility so um I mean I appreciate the comment I'm just not sure that would be something I would remove from a definition because it's not a requirement in the in the submitt and we can be clear about that that you know I mean I think it is but it it's always better to have your opinion as not looking at this um well I I do have another question on Section 2024 which you mentioned and I was looking at the process and again I'm trying to put myself in the position of I'm I'm the homeowner good and um basically it says you get architecture approval and then it gets reviewed by um the historical now if the architect approves it thinking that everything meets the design book and all that and then then you all get the approval and you go oh no this is terrible they you know the they miss the fact that the house is 50 feet tall I don't know um you know but it doesn't talk about what happens after that and I just thought if we looked at it from a process flow would it be better before they got approval to have the architect say here I'm I've looked at it or you know how would that process actually work the number of steps that a resident would go through um to complete this process and it kind of just says you review it and it stops there and it's after they already got approved which would in my impression put you in a negative context yeah I I would point out that one of the things we talked about in in subsection four because I was concerned that it says you know and provide a summary of approval or recommended changes as if there's the belief that it can't be rejected so I suggested adding you know rejection in there and that was kind of I was kind of talked down from that I thought um well I mean just so we can be clear for that was um the board is a recommending board um so they can recommend changes but they cannot recommend a denial um so that that's the reason why that was there because it's really only um the elected officials that are the decision makers um but I hear what you're saying so I mean there would be um I mean I don't think that there's anything in this process that would prohibit an applicant to come and ask the historic preservation board what the requirements are typically with developers and Architects when they're submitting their application they would rather have a first level staff review because staff's review is really to meet um the code and then the historic preservation board really should be that too but the historic pres preservation board in theory brings a little bit more context to the area so um when the staff report is done it should be outlined all the measures that were met and then the historic preservation board um would really have to have substantive reason to contradict what the staff report said and I mean that could be an option I just don't know many applicants that would want to go to a a um a board first before having having any look or any approvals with um the staff I'd also point out that often times when the staff make a recommendation they do have some conditions okay uh that are a little more of a gray area where they want this or would like this and then we kind of get to Hash that out a little bit and it historically I think it's that's probably the wrong word um usually it turns out that the the builders are very receptive to that you know because I think most people do want to get along as far as that goes so that kind of allows a dialogue that that to occur uh the way it's set up now and I think you know what Tera said makes makes somewhat makes sense under those circumstances because you know yeah that's why it's that's one we one of those earlier questions about not having Keith I mean we don't particularly you know what I'm saying so we can't really say no no no no no but we can certainly prod and push people in the right direction and if we're working with the city and have you know their support of what goes on I think will get a better result than we've been getting sometimes approval condition would be that you do get to review it so that they don't look at you and say but I've already been approved correct yeah I think that I think I I think that that's fair uh I don't think I can't think of a situation where you know it's gotten down to where we say we think you know we would like this little change and they go no we're not going to do that you know it's just they they're happy to get along when it's usually something fairly minor if it's something bigger I think the staff has already corrected that to start with before it gets to us is that fair I think a lot of the staff reports have identified um just like um chair just said that they've identified where you know the the policies are not um specific enough but it gives enough room that sometimes an applicant will push back on and then it's deferred to the some really defer but um that's the condition of the approval is to go through the historic preservation board and to have a discussion on it so um typically how it's been working is if if there is any push back that's that's where the push back starts to have the conversation is um with the hisor preservation board I mean I say sometimes we have situations because it's already on the calendar and we'll come before us and the architect will have already made a change between when the staff reviewed and we got it you know so so uh it does tend to work itself out does anybody have if if you've noticed if you if you actually sat and compared to the stuff before or the like if we're talking about division 20 now first let me just ask in division 40 do you have any more questions about that that's you know we we added some purpose and intent Ang language that mirrors division 20 and as I said you know 20 years before ago before they built the crd it was part of the overlay and I think when they created the special zone for the crd there was probably an assumption that the historical aspects would still apply but it just got neglected so we we've added those things and and uh and other than the height that we talked about it's pretty much the way it was before um and again this is you know there's we're open to ideas when we meet with the commission and too I mean maybe people will say we haven't gone far enough or we need to do and that's for for a later day but right now what we're just trying to do is I said tighten up kind of what we had and make it reflect what you know what the people I think want anyway question there's a reference under 2012 and it went to locally designated historic structures who locally designates historic structures and how often is that done so the board does the applicant has to make that request we can't go out and say we want you to designate your house your structure so the applicant comes forward and says we want our home to have a local historic designation it meets these criteria and we either approve or disapprove it and so I think you know that all this historic designation from homes is entirely a voluntary thing you know and they can change their minds later and do things like that so you know and again they're usually identified in the survey that we do do a historic survey of homes that are over 50 years old and we've done it we're on our third one now we just completed our second one what's that the the last survey that we just did we just added in D is our place in and Bel Vista I guess yeah but there's new review right in the future I know they're going to be looking at Don CeSar place and V Vista cuz you know it we're all except for you perhaps I think we're all historic in here so uh you know identifies all the structures and then it identifies them by age and and they different architectural design which allows a map of it for lack of a better term and then those individuals can then apply for their designation individually it's up to them can we talk about section 20.10 um I just wanted to ask about the replacement of a fixed number for the front yard setback with a very ambiguous average historic setback I seem like it would be open for a lot of interpretation or why use average when a extreme outlier could draw the average in One Direction heavily versus something like mode where it's the most frequent historic setback rounded to a whole number you know something like that well I'm going to defer to Brandon on that because when I see words like Secretary of interior standards for rehabilitation I tend to shrink away from that and and just rely on the experts on that kind of stuff so so would the concern be if you have a block pH with two 20 foot setbacks and then a zero it would just be an extreme variation that's uh that's a good point you know I don't know that we I guess it would help to actually take a look to see what that type of variation is I think that when we look for design reviews because that's one of the elements that we look at in design reviews currently we tend to not see a whole lot of variation homes tend to be um you know for example Sunset way we tend to have a lot of homes that are set very close to the property line um other places like Gulf way they tend to be fairly consistent that's something staff can probably look at to see if there is any kind of extreme variation and then possibly you were thinking that the most frequent setback would be the basis for that or that was my idea yeah that is looking at what's there currently and now you've got a fixed number to work from versus someone arguing with you well 50 years ago this other house used to be here and that's histor but it's not there anymore and a lot of this is going to be dictated by the lot sizes and lot sizes in the P overlay which is what we're discussing are very similar across the board at approximately 50 by 100 now they do vary they do vary but not by much more than go ahead what I would um so the reason there is an average and you know it could be clarified that it's an existing um structure that's in that setback so that'll take out um whether or not they have to look at something prior um unless unless you do a street by Street inventory and measure um and you'll have to get permission from each homeowner that you go onto their property to measure um from the RightWay to from their property line to their to their home um you wouldn't have a definitive number and what we've typically seen in historic neighborhoods is an average seems to work better because Street by Street it can change but if you want to do you would have to um if you want to do the measurements you do have to get permission by um property owner to do that I guess so that's why a lot of people just stick with an average well that would that would make me more concerned than because it would also be similarly impossible for the city to enforce you would have to get permission to measure what's there to demonstrate something was not in compliance and chair I I think the reason is average I think the reason because I remember the board discussing this maybe six months ago and I think the concern was more about having significant variation from other structures so to have a 10- foot setback when there might have been a average of 15 or 20 so potentially a way to resolve this would be to keep the 10 but also keep in the the average so you would have a you want to have a home that would be set at a 7ot front setb when two homes are at 20 it does kind of bound those a little bit more would something like that potentially work and I'll look into your example as well sure yeah yeah yeah I think that's that was you goes back to a little bit of why we wanted to get rid of the choices and what how you build your house either it's a z underlying zone or overlay because you're getting some distinct differences but by the same token you you may have a really really old house that was built on the way on the very back of a lot line that could never be built today you you know and so it may have a 60ft front yard well you can't expect the neighbor to have that I mean there's going to be some collateral damage as as life goes on but uh I can remember a specific circumstance where we had to apply this is it okay if I share that so the uh the schoolhouse when they renovated the schoolhouse it well let's not call it was a Schoolhouse for a year maybe it's on Fourth Street it was one little spot that presumably was a Schoolhouse for a year not one that you know the history anyway go ahead sorry okay so a little house on 4th Avenue that had been there for a long time and they were renovating it and they wanted to add some square footage to the back on the ground level it was inside the backyard setbacks I mean it was it was outside the backyard they couldn't build a new structure there that far but the structure did exist back that far and they wanted to make a lateral addition off the back and you know that wasn't going to interfere with anyone's line of sight or passage between Properties or emergency vehicles or access or utilties so it was that was an easy approval to do but that you know that would be a circumstance where you know we would relax those setbacks for something that already existed it's a contributing structure but the new part was also going to be non-conforming so we had to approve that non-conforming right because I think it was maybe a 40 by 40 a lot really really tiny and I mean I don't think there's any other like that on pass girl but that's the way it was developed in the last hundred years so you don't want to be in a situation where it's like well you need to tear your house down and build something new because we're not going to let you add a small room to it and keep it historic and it kind of defeats the whole purpose so uh you know we have the ability to I guess approve some things of that nature for for the for good reasons I have a question if an existing accessory building was destroyed like in a storm is it can they replace that or they have to go with the new rule like that they can't have that kind of a building in the front or Ian what happens when something gets so you're talking about if they had like a a detached not a detached garage a shed or something like that so not a living not a living ability that's actually a good question because the pass overlay was developed to avoid spot zoning so it would protect all the homes in the overlay in the event of a catastrophic event that wiped out things or or you lost items of your property you'd have the ability to put them back now to some degree there is having to build to the new building requirements but they I believe were going to allow you to get your accessory building back such as a detached garage or something like that if it was destroyed that they would allow you to rebuild it that was part of the that was part of the protection of pass overlay when it was first developed right and that specifically extends to Historic structures um it does allow for and that's one of the benefits of being on the local registry is that or voluntarily on the registry is that they are able to rebuild substantially improve a structure even if it's non-conforming um so yeah yeah I think that's the beauty of of and I think a lot of the public doesn't know this on some of these old homes they just think they need to tear them down to build something new new they don't I mean because they we you can do additions I mean if you go the right way you can there's number of houses on Pas that are old structures that they've done significant additions to and they look great you know the problem is that many of them are in such disrepair it's hard to to do that so basically they grandfathered that basically be it yeah it created a way to protect the existing structures the existing multifamilies and Etc that wouldn't have fit at the time the regular underlying zoning now that's why we're trying to strengthen the overlay so it'll protect the existing homes and also try to protect Redevelopment as it goes forward to try and keep the place similar I I have another question um there was a place uh page 43 uh where it was eliminating the common references to the common yard but then they were referenced again in in 20.20 page 91 so again I just don't know if I didn't understand it correctly or that's just something I guess to to check see if it's I I spoke with our consultant about this earlier um that that was a a mistake and it's something we need to fix up there's for single family homes in passor Grill there are three current Frontage types that can be used to porch a stoop or Landscaping which is called the common yard we had intended to remove that so that the Landscaping standards are still in place but someone can't just put trees in where they would need to normally have a structural set back to the building that is intended to be removed it it it was just a it was a leftover so we're going to be deleting that thank you you and I also had some questions about one of um everybody's favorite subject was parking because I was reading about you know how you could take the 15 ft and then I didn't know how metered parking and all that there was a lot in this thing about parking so I just want to make sure that I understood that so I was going to ask you to you're bringing back so many happy [Laughter] memories so what what section you talking about 2018 minimum off street parking requirements 208 and B yes so that would apply to only the very limited number of commercial structures that we have in the overlay outside of the community outside of the crde EA and they would be able to count any on street parking toward their minimum requirements so it's it would just be a a radius measurement they would show that to us and um if they're if they have on street parking within 500 feet whether it's metered or not they would be able to that so my concern was knowing that it's very tight parking uh would that have a negative impact on the residents uh because a commercial entity is I guess being allowed to count potential resident parking places as part of their parking lot so I just want to make sure I understood that cuz it's a tough parking situation yeah I'm not sure that maybe maybe Brandon and I are disagree on the same I don't I hope it's not saying they can count okay on the side streets okay on the Avenues that's that's not metered parking so the public can't park on those unless they have a unless they live there and have a sticker so I assume they're talking about counting the the spots that are on Gulfway or pass gr away which are me are the metered spots or on 9th or 10th there's a couple areas ninth particularly uh right near the 8th Avenue which has a lot of of of public parking is that Tara I think just defining that to include customer or employee available parking with that do you have any concerns with that just to metered and I don't no I don't have any concerns if it's clarified um to to remove that would be a concern just to remove that uh allowance because it's been an entitlement that's been in place so if we don't allow it any longer it's just I don't know if any commercial properties have ever used it if they haven't then you can make the change um if anybody is using this um then we have to think about how um you permitted it and now you're removing it um but that that's just a i defer to the attorney on that U typically no one wants to remove vested rights well I I also say too that the reality is the city does get involved in these parking situations when there's a particular issue or they can for example the business is on eth avue venue you know a problem can be people are parking there and going to the beach well that's an Enforcement issue okay and so that's a city situation I know that on 9th Avenue which is meter parking they've made a portion of those that to park there you have to be going to the businesses on eth Avenue they're not for Beach parking again I know some of the people have to post their own guard out there to make sure people aren't going to the beach or not but you know I think the city can be receptive to to fixing that problem so the businesses do have well as as as sufficient parking as they can have everyone knows on the weekend it's 100% full no matter where you are and I and I do know that they were doing things where there were some spaces up by Hurley Park where there was like uh employee parking a limited amount for you know because they couldn't park anywhere near where they were so that's something that they think Works hand inand with the city parking enforcement how they can make changes to facilitate uh that everybody gets to do what they want to do um there that's more of the the reality of it right there is a little bit more um the in newer construction the city did have requirements in in commercial development prior to cdea and Etc that as you increased your commercial business if you redeveloped Commercial Business you had to provide basis for it now again we talk about buildings in 8th Avenue that have been there historically and then we talk about ones that are relatively new um the only time I know that the case came up was when the hurricane was expanded it did not have uh parking spaces when it first was expanded and then later had to create its own parking lot um that's I think what the essence of this was is that buildings that that depended upon parking public parking because they were already there had to be protected and at the same time new development had to have its own requirements to Pro to come up with how it was going to provide parking for its customers and not necessarily take away from the what was existing and you know the thing that's always funny to remember is when most of those buildings were B built on 8th Avenue there was no cars on the beach they didn't get a bridge till 1919 so that was a problem they didn't have to even worry about maybe horse parking or something but uh you know I do think within that 500 foot bubble that has to be defined if on street parking is available I would say if it's resident permit parking that wouldn't be considered as available for commercial use so that would be protected anyway I think we could definitely better Define that though I did want to say we do need to wrap up in just two minutes for the regular meeting but I appreciate all the feedback from the planning board I'll include this as a discussion item at one of the upcoming meetings with these ch once we've wrapped up our process and um if you have anything else please reach out to me anything else from the thank you so much thank you thank you gu nice to meet you folks thank you for coming in youate thank you gabble are we adjourned gabble oh sorry h e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e uh now 230 if we can all rise and do the Pledge of Allegiance please to the flag of United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible Liberty and jce for all uh Madam clerk roll call please we got we got a new microphone here member Hurley here member young yes member Hawkin Smith yes member dashel here chair Lowry yes we have a quorum okay first on the meeting we have the approval of the agenda does anybody have any items that they would like to add for discussion and if so what would they be okay the only thing I guess I would add just just because I want to be able to clarify for everybody after at the end of this meeting uh is just what our next steps are as far as workshops and things of that nature we may we may already have that as a discussion item so just based on what we talked about today and things of that nature so it ask that we just get a a immediate update essentially on what our next steps are as far as uh doing workshops and getting this to the Commissioners well I'm going to move that we approve the agenda of the September 5th 2024 meeting to include a discussion about next steps for our workshops second Adam clerk roll call member young yes Vice chair Hawkin Smith member dashel yes member Hurley yes chair Lowry yes motion carries okay this now is the point for uh audience comments I would point out that if you have some comments about something that we're going to be talking about later that's on the agenda or discussion items you can wait until that point and you will be heard uh and but if there's something that you want to make a general comments now's the time to do that does anybody wish to step forward with General comments I do have one comment card okay this is General comment not on agenda items at this time that's okay we'll be happy we can hear hear you twice if I have a card from somebody else justed to get their comment cards oh I see right P you please uh state your name for the record please it's Patricia Lopez um we own the home at one5 Gulfway and there's new construction going in right next door to ours our house was built in 1908 it's the Bell Bungalow it's um actually featured in the walking tour of of pasago which I'm kind of proud of um I was never notified I received no notice in the mail um when the new construction was beginning I noticed and my neighbor called me that there were 34 huge pilings delivered into the yard and I said oh my gosh how are those pilings going to be put in because I know that they're building for the overlay with the overlay so it was going to be extremely close to my house and come to find out they're going to be pounded in in and I immediately ran to the city to the commission to the building department and I said I am so concerned and I called the contractor I said I'm so concerned about the trauma about the vibrations in the ground and how this might affect my house because it's solid poured concrete which doesn't give a lot it was buil built by by Mr Bell um from Chicago I'm not here because this is already done and my house um got damaged from it I'm here for the next person because it's very important to preserve I think pass a grill the historic quality the charm and everything I after coming to the city and telling them my concerns which you know they took with a grain of salt I must say I immediately went home and called an engineer to come out and look at my house and take pictures and do a preconstruction survey of my house to show that it was in Fairly good condition for the age um and I'm glad I did once the drilling I mean the uh pounding commenced the house shook with every pound and it was very frightening and when we had a pipe burst I immediately called the my daughter was at the house and she called me in Tampa and told me about it she called the water department I got three minutes oh my goodness um the plumber came out I called the owner of the um the drill the pounding company and he I credit him very much was a standup guy and came right out to the property and he was concerned about it he took care of the bill for the plumber and he's been extremely kind and receptive and he's going to have a structural company come out to our house and take a look at it and he's getting in touch with me to set up an appointment however I don't feel I should be going through this to begin with I should have been given notice and I we have a home also in he Park in Tampa and the histo Architectural Review Committee there does have teeth big teeth and um which is nice um they do a preliminary testing or Report with Engineers to see if the property next to any new construction might be affected and there are different ways to do pilings they can be drilled there's mats that can you know stop the vibrations my three minutes is up but anyway number one the PE the property owners need to be notified the surrounding properties the his history museum is right behind it and number two there's other means to um put in these pilings and I hope to God that the next people get that choice thank you thank you ma'am and and I just say for the record we spoke on the phone a while ago about that you did and I shared with you some of my frustrations I will point out that last month I did bring it up about about augur versus pounding and we thought that be something we would address because we I think we all recognize that to be a significant issue and I think we've been fortunate that a lot of places built recently have done the the augur type or the screwing type and not the pounding and so uh I certainly thank you for for bringing that up and I think it's something we will talk about Brandon do you don't have saying that do you no because we okay I know if you're up for that and so that's something and and as far as your notification things of that nature that's not really within our purview but I think as far as you know because we're just a Rec Advisory Board to the city but I I think that is something I I will commit to you that is something we will follow follow up on and trying to think think if we can make it a Citywide requirement or at least in the historic area or make that a consideration for anyone that has to build a loc a new home um you know especially next to an older structure where it's so close maybe another check box on the application for construction right notification ofers okay ma'am please state your name Eileen Gunther 111th Avenue I just wanted to follow up on Pat's comment I am you know directly uh behind Kate Curry's old property where they were doing this and what was between us is of course the church which was just on the other side of the alley and uh you know the museum I mean those bricks are from 1915 all those pipes in those alleys are so old um it's it's really invasive uh my house was directly you know like one property away and one alley away and you felt all and there were over 6,000 strikes that's a lot of pounding and it took you know four days or whatever and that was a small property that was only 34 I think they put in 30 to 34 pilings but all of the Lots in passag Grill you know when people decide to do this if they choose that pile Foundation process some of them don't even have alleys like Chris Marone doesn't have an alley behind his house he's just a fence between him and and the property behind him or whatever so I guess what I'm saying is is I just want to reiterate I don't know what is the way that we can get someone to put a restriction at least in passag Grill on if you do want to have that type of foundation to secure your building which I understand okay that's fine there's got to be a you've got to use the four times more expensive process of drilling I know it's more expensive but if you want to do that it shouldn't be at my expense it shouldn't be at her expense to have crack buildings and plumbing problems and all the stress and so on so what is the process I mean who do we go to do we present this to the city commission do we start with the building department and say how do we get this I mean what do we do that's what I'm asking is basically you know how do we Rectify this because it's going to happen continuously and uh yeah I I my advice would be and as I said we or advisory obviously this that would be right a change that the commission would ultimately have to adopt themselves they're the ones that real barill it could not be included in these amendments that you're it might be able to I mean I I think and and please bear with me for a moment it's taken us two years to get where we are right now okay and so you know it doesn't mean that things can't change as time goes on but I think that would be a more of a building the building department and the commission would have to change that not something in the historic it's a good first step is what I'm saying but I encourage you to talk to the building department I encourage you to send emails to the city manager I encourage you to send emails to the commissioner because those the people that are timately going to make that decision okay we we are totally in I think I'm not putting words in other people's mouths but I think we're supportive of what you're trying to do yeah and that was you know one of the reasons it was just brought up last month there is a less invasive way and the other thing about the notification everything that that contractor did was within code he didn't do anything wrong he looked and he read and he was allowed to do that and he didn't need to notify anybody and that's the problem where that has to change because what if those folks were in hide Park and they didn't even know this was happening you know or or whatever they wouldn't have had a structural engineer go out there ahead of oh I know and I'm you know it needs to be if you it's it's got to be the same notification as if you're going to the board of adjustment for a variance if you're going to use P if you're going to pile Drive pilings into the ground somebody in your immediate area all everybody needs to be notified of that happening so that you're there and you can maybe take some action or whatever so I don't know I don't know we we we kind of feel like it's an important issue and what how do we start well I think I think we all agree and it's something that especially in the historic district it needs to there's rectified these houses aren't even on Foundation I don't even have a foundation under my it's just going to be po you know kind just float out to see with same way they brought it in right no um yeah no when they when they redid all the pipes on pass girl away there was significant piping you know pounding and a lot even new structures got some some damage to some extent so it's very very important and I think that's something that should be brought up you have certainly will have our support but I would suggest there's you need to did you all know when you when you had your when you approved Kate's uh Kate Curry's new the new building that went up there is it on there that there's going to be uh that's how the foundation is going to go in be honest with you I don't remember because frankly we don't that wasn't so much of a concern of us at that time you know we're going from the standpoint of the design and this is what the city has said so uh I kind of defer I assume that probably is in those plans do they talk about pilings how they're going to if they're going to do that say I believe that a a pile Foundation is required an all construction now yeah I I'm sure it's it's part of their plans but that's not something we have control over it the way it is right now I can't say for that specific case but typically at the point that it's presented to you you're looking at more of the design or the architecture it's not we they're not building plans at that point typically so is there a place within our code or with our revisions that um construction processes would fit we have an amendments to the building code section and that's typically where the type of winwing or narrowing of the the building code would be in that section that's in our code of ordinances so typically something like that would be in there not not in in section 20 uh section 20 being more Land Development regulations typically no right all right thank you ladies thank you brand I do have one more car comment card hello Brandon teenburg owner of 3112 passor Grill way I wanted to take the moment to thank the board here couple members of uh City Hall staff for helping uh me along the way and approving my sign at 3112 I wanted to step up here and thank you a lot of times people don't give thanks also want to take the time to uh thank Jennifer McMahon working with our little league to uh get the concession stand going finally so it's great I love it um one question I had um I'm also an owner of 102 8th Avenue and 702 passag gr way and I've been watching the meetings the workshop today and I went back in time up to about May of 2024 um watching the meetings on uh Cod division 20 Cod division 40 I was just wed to talk to quickly to the board and find out because I I'm not following it completely is the board recommending or working on proposing to the city to lower the height restriction on 8th Avenue which would also affect 702 pass gr away I have uh a good friend of mine who's a partner of me with me on 1028 Avenue and at 702 pass away I have two other uh partners that are good friends of mine so they've asked me to come and uh speak to you today to see what it is that your board is wanting to change or propose um to the city thank you go ahead address it yeah I I guess to address that I would say we've been went from a more of a nebulous area of what the height man on 8th Avenue okay it from long ago to being more specific about it uh so I don't know how that would exactly fit into what you might want to do or had planned to do uh there's been some other changes as far as what you can do on rooftops and things of that nature that had nothing to do with us but I think was changed since as I said I don't if you're earlier there's only been one thing that's been built on 8th Avenue in the last 40 years correct and so uh it's we we trying to make it clear that it's a that you can build a structure 35 ft High okay okay and that means from standing on the ground and looking up 35 ft all right so whether that's a little bit lower than it was interpreted when they did the Berkeley Beach Club I'm not 100% sure on that but also the Berkeley Beach Club had a lot of stuff on the roof that would be maybe not ex would have to go through a different different process now okay so I'd encourage you to come to whatever conclusion you might on that and certainly when it comes in front of the commission uh to speak your mind out as far as that goes okay does that make sense yeah it makes sense and you can you we've talked before sure yeah if I can we can you can call me and I could tell you a little bit more but basically that's the situation unless I and unless you have specific plans I can't tell you no I don't have any yeah can see what I did at lauga you know I'm trying to keep you know historic and make it modern and beautiful no I get it the concern that we have is that there'll be restrictions put on what we just purchased because everything's been purchased in the last two years so they concern that what we were what we purchased what was advertised and marketed is now going to change or possibly could change well you'll have to look at that stuff closed because I don't know exactly what your plans were could be you know I I it's nothing major from the standpoint you can still build three story structure and all that kind of stuff so you know uh beyond that I would just recommend you read the stuff and and get familiar with it we'll do right thanks a lot and thank you for the thank you yes and thank you for the Little League stuff too I I I'm glad to hear that's progressing Jennifer I'll talk to you maybe later about that I want to get an update thank you okay so next we have on action it oh no we have to now approval over the minutes hases any of the members had an opportunity to review the minutes and does anybody have a motion I reviewed the minutes and I would move to approve uh minutes from August 1st 2024 second roll call please Vice chair hackin Smith approved member dashel approved member Hurley approved member young approved chair Lowry yes motion carries okay now we're on to section four action items 4A is the local historic designation number 24055 which deals with the property at 257 passor girl way and I just note before we move on with that that on the um on the agenda it says 23055 but when you open up that link it says 24055 on the paperwork so it's just the link on the website that's Mis so did I did I give the right number or not okay you did thank you okay so staff has a presentation for us and before we get started am i g to this is like the first time we've had a nice little packet like this is this something we can kind of expect in the future so we don't we don't have to print out 169 Pages at home if you want to do that for today because the monitors are down that's oh okay of you yes gotta thank you right because while the public can see this you can't I got okay gotcha very good thank you we wanted to make sure that you could see them thank you thank you so um this property this is for local historic designation for property located at 2507 passag gril way it's a single family residential property and this is case number 2455 the applicants are Sherry and Ron Cino and they have lived in this house since the mid1 1970s and they have they are requesting a certificate of appropriateness as a companion document as well but first they would like to seeking local historic designation for their house oops so on our exhibits we've got the land use and Zoning Maps the aerial photograph photographs of 25 507 pass Grill way both um current pictures and pictures that I scoured up from some of the old Florida Master site file forms that were done back in the 1980s also staff findings and a recommendation the zoning is ru2 which is residential Urban 2 and it is in the passag gril overlay District this is an aerial photograph of the property another background and Analysis this is a craftsman style single family residential that was constructed as I said earlier in 1934 and it's a contributing historic resource within the pass gr National register historic district visual field review shows that this house to be wellmaintained and a certificate of appropriateness is also being sought to add a carport on the south side of the property and it is in very you know the house right now seems to be in very good condition the COA request is also being presented for review before this board following this request for local designation the house is um and seems to be in very original condition I know that some things have been changed out but when you compare the photo photographs between the two of them that you'll see on the next page when you turn to the page of photographs these these pH these H the house is currently painted kind of a a blue green and some of the older pH photographs show that it is of the same material but a different color it has a lighter green color more like a sage green I would say for the prop for the um photographs the photographs were taken by they were uh they were part of the earliest early survey about 1987 or 85 I think so under staff findings staff is supporting this request to locally designate 257 passag gril way as a local Historic Landmark according to this property's Florida Master site file the building exemplifies or reflects the broad cultural political cultural economic or social history of the city and county the state or the United States and it is a contributing property within the national register historic district of pasag Grill it also has continued its use as a single family residential structure with an excellent level of architectural Integrity as such staff finds that 2507 passag gril way is representative of passag Grill's historic district significance for a recommended motion I move that I recommend that you utilize I move to approve the request for local Landmark designation and as it goes further within your paper I won't read it to you and if you've got any questions I will be glad to answer them while I scroll these photos through some of the I know you can't see them but to the public watching the photos that are black and white come from 1987 so you can see that the house looks substantially the same and the cinos I think are they expressed to me that they were very much interested in keeping the Integrity of the house the carport as it's going to be built and as we'll discuss in the certificate of appropriateness would be something that would not detract from the house itself but also it's going to be something that could be removed and then the original house would still be there intact so it would not be hurting it and I know in the past we've talked about this with additions that do or don't impact the architectural Integrity of the house and in this case such a structure to the South would not impact the structural Integrity of the house thank you I'll be glad to answer any questions that you have does anyone have any questions and I know I I don't know if the senos are here are they could speak but I don't know if I know that might be more appropriate is here in the next part when we talk about it because uh you know I don't think there's any discussion because it's this is the the perfect thing thing that we like to do so uh you know it's a great house they've taken care of it I so anybody else wants to jump in I'll move to approve the request for local Landmark designation for 257 pass girl way which is a contributing residential structure within the pasir national register historic district which is case number hopefully 2455 I'll second that motion M Shapiro Cino is here and she would like to speak do you want to Speak now or certificate no I think there might be a yes I think that would be the more appropriate time I think you're good right now yes okay so Madam clerk roll call please member dashel yes member Hurley yes member young yes Vice chair Hawkins Smith yes member uh chair Lowry yes motion carries okay so next we have along with the same piece of property we have the certificate of appropriateness for 20 which is number 2453 at 257 uh 257 pass away okay well staff you have a report on this as well yes you have a report on this um so again same the same property 2507 pass a grill way and the applicant is requesting a certificate of appropriateness to add a car port with a balcony onto the south side of this single family residential craftsman style home that was built in 1934 and which is a contributing structure to the passive grill National register historic district an overview of the proposed work is the exterior siding will remain as is the proposed carport and balcony will be added using Cypress wood and Concrete the PGT hurricane compliant windows will replace the existing wind windows but I understand that they will continue to have the same look they will just be storm resistant doors will remain as they are now the metal roof will remain the entrances and porches will remain the same as well kind interrupt you for a second you say something about Windows right yes where are windows being put in if it's a open car they are they are going to be replacing the existing Windows which are not hurricane resistance in the rest of the house yes okay okay I just missed I believe it's the rest of the house um I believe that's fine I I just was struggling with the carport and that part I get it now all right thank you go ahead I'm sorry to interrupt thank you so we're we in looking at the Secretary of interior standards um new as you know new additions exterior alterations and such do need to come before you for review and also in this case um you know any Sur surface cleaning of the structures is you know should be undertaken using the gentest means possible and if any significant archaeological resources are effect or discovered during any such construction then you know they they need to be protected and preserved we need to be told about that and um if such resources must be disturbed mitigation me measures shall be undertaken at that time in addition going take taking a look at the Secretary of interior standards the property shall be used for its historic purpose or placed in a new use that requires a minimal change in this case it's remaining a single family structure the historic character of the property should be retained and preserved and it is my opinion that it is because the house is not going to be changed yes there will be some new windows but they're going to emulate the existing windows they're just going to be something that will hopefully not be blown out in a storm and um each property shall be recognized as a physical record of its time place and use and in fact this house continues to look as it did when it was constructed back in the 1930s and except for the side car port which is going to still continue to be compatible with the existing structure it's going to continue to to look like a property that may have been there in the 1930s and 40s until the present time if you've got any questions I'll be glad to answer them staff is recommending that this be approved as proposed um at 2507 pass gr away and this historic um certificate of appropriateness is case number 2421 if you have any questions I'll be glad to answer them okay yeah tell me the case number is again sorry I'm sorry the case number I'm sorry my apologies it is 2453 okay all right sorry H go ahead oh that's okay so if I'm understanding the the carport and the deck on top will have the existing windows on the second floor that are being replaced with hurricane windows but the deck is ornamental it's not a patio it's just the roof of the carport is that it's the roof of the carport but it's going to have railing I believe is that not correct yeah it's going to have railing around it and they're going to use it as a like an an outdoor yeah Pao and and how would that be accessed through the house is I don't see a door am I missing something is there a door going to be added into the side of the house that on that side on the second floor so you don't you don't step through the window to get on top of the cport although you could yes go ahead yeah thank you everybody thank you ly um there's currently a say your name for the record oh I'm sorry I'm Sherry Cino I'm the owner of the house uh with my husband Ron who's back here um we have Florida ceiling Windows now and we're um replacing one window with a uh hurricane door so we can go out and step onto the balcony outside okay and so it'll be able to withand the weight of people but I see it now in the rendering in the which we don't have it in here but I see it now the door okay I have a couple questions so is this the car park is is this wide enough for one car I assume yes and this has nothing to do with the this is more of my curiosity but in the picture there's like a banon tree in front of that kind of there is a laurel it is a what's it it's a secr no it's not a secret lar well in front of the carport or in front of the house in front of the carport area I think big it's it would be in front of yeah that tree will be taken out and it is a I know but it's a it's actually a nuisance tree it's I have one on my backyard pepper I think yeah yeah it's probably a it is lovely Cuban Laurel maybe it's it's a type of Bion anyway but it's a big old tree yeah so you're going to take that out I figured you probably would have to yeah we have to otherwise we can't use Theo just for own curiosity yeah the carpo's needed we I have an electric car and my my dashboard recently melted so I need to need people don't realize that happens but it does so okay um I don't think I I don't have any other questions myself I think you know any folks Mr C I'm good and I know I guess eventually we're going to talk about the tax issue that is that next next one yes but I I think it's the first one we've seen so I applaud you that you're doing that so at least we get an actual practical expectation of what it actually means okay so that's good all right anybody have a motion I'll move to approve the requested certificate of appropriateness for case number 24053 I'll second that roll call please member Hurley yes member young yes member Hawkins Smith yes member dashel yes chair Lowry yes motion carries thank you thank you I really do thank you your house house is great and we love to see that stuff that's why it's an an easy sell when you come in here you know thank you okay I'm going going back to our next discussion item here hold on Lo we did that already we did that we did the local designation first before you presented the COA application but you do have something else on the very back page I don't understand uh no that was it's just the wrong case number okay 453 okay so next here and action items have 4 C which is the adorm tax exemption on 2507 pass away Brandon and this is a quick one the action that you took on the certificate of appropriateness effectively did this but we would just like a formal recommendation because we don't get many adorm tax exemptions they tend to be more common in other jurisdictions I I spoke with the owner um they are looking to move forward with the adorm tax exemption under the scope of the work that they were just approved for this would apply to the advolum tax increase from the scope of work that was just approved it wouldn't be for the entire structure um and that would be for up to 10 years it would apply at the in in the tax year following the completion of improvements if you make a recommendation on this it will go forward to the city commission from there it goes on to the county we will check over the um we will inspect the property once the work's complete to make sure it's in line with the certificate of appropriateness you just approved but if if you make a recommendation if it moves on and is ultimately approved they would be eligible for that adorm exemption I think in the staff report am ministic comma but or a single digit but it works out to be about $1,570 per year for 10 years um for per $100,000 in improvements so okay do you know and this again this is because the first one we've seen at when 10 years comes around do they just change the tax based on that addition that was they don't they don't redo the whole house at that point it's it's an adjustment just based on the addition like as if nothing had you know they had not been Exempted for 10 years yeah okay I assume that was the case all right so what do we have to we're just make making a motion I'll make a motion it's on theenda I move to approve the requested advalorium tax exemption pending successful completion of the work proposed under certificate of appropriate 25053 I'll second that motion AAL call please member young yes member hackin Smith yes member dashel yes member Hurley yes chair Lowry yes motion carries all right thank you so much can I just add oh yeah sure yeah I just want to just add that I'm working with Brandon and um and Lynn was an exception experience there would really care and were very thorough so and helped me along as I I I called bill first to find out what to do and he says something it was them well yeah you introduced me to Brandon so that worked out so but thank you and I was I was gonna do this before Brandon stood up and thanked everybody just so you know all right now now you started but thank you thank you all for everything okay so hour at 4 d certificate of appropriateness for the demolition number exuse me certificate 2456 for the demolition of the home located at 2500 Sunset way Mr Rosetti yes let me see if I can scroll this no oh thank you kind of nice I need to you're GNA make this thank you thank [Applause] you thank you Kristen good afternoon again um this particular application is for certificate of appropriateness for demolition at 2500 Sunset way this is a single family residential property case number 24056 and it's owned by PJ and Lisa McGovern and um I would have to say that also you were given a handout from their architector designer and I had had a long conversation with him talking to him about historic preservation and you know whenever I talk to anybody who wants to demolish their property we have a long discussion about you know possible Alternatives that they could take and things like that so in this case um you know he understood what I was talking about but it's a narrow lot and apparently they are concerned about the House's future with relationship to storms I don't know if he's here or not so he will I'm sure be wanting to present uh and some talk to you and present what he feels are reasons for this demolition so this is a house that is also a part of the national register it's a contributing structure in the National register historic district um on the exhibits we've got a zoning map this property is also ru2 residential Urban and P like the last property um the aerial photograph that aerial photograph is it's incorrect I did not change that out it is on the other side on the Gulf side it is in a narrow lot I believe I have attached a copy of survey in a staff report for photographs this houses you can take up almost all of the side to side property of you know of how where it's sitting on the lot there's not a lot of room to navigate between the property line and the house in addition I was not able to get any photos on the beach because I couldn't find a beach walkover that was close enough to it and also so I took photos of property in the sides showing how I there wasn't any access and I couldn't get through to take photos from the beach so these photo the photographs that you see are um of the house and then also its neighbors the gry house in your handout is the neighbor to the north and you can see one more house to the north is a larger taller structure the same thing is true to the right or to the South and you have a lower house or a similar house that's a one-story house next to it but then next to that there is another taller newer house so there is some intrusion into this part of the neighborhood with newer houses that are meeting the current flood plane requirements there also the last photograph shows how close it each that this existing house the subject house that we are looking at today for Demolition and the house next door they're very close so in issuing demo we looking at demo permits um we have to take a a look at the architectural or historic significance of the building the importance of the building to the character of a district the difficulty or impossibility of reproducing such a building one of and uh whether or not it's one of the last remaining examples of it kind in the neighborhood or city and whether reasonable measures can be taken to save the building and whether the building is capable of earning reasonable economic return and considering its physical condition its location and the anticipated expense of Rehabilitation would be economically feasible one of the things that kept coming up in discussion with the owner's agent was the fact that it's at grade or just slightly above grade and though and they are very concerned about flooding issues especially being on the Gulf of Mexico and rather than and they had some interest some problems with the wood being deteriorating as such these things are addressed in the letter I will let the applicant discuss that rather than me here and try and framework his um the reasons for why the property owner wants to go ahead and do this so staff is recommending approval however of the requested COA certificate of appropriateness for demolition for this property this uh 2456 case number for this contributing residential structure to the passag gril National register historic district property is located at 2500 pass away and staff does recommend though that any demolition approval be conditioned upon the historic preservation uh board's approval of the related residential design review so I put a recommended motion on the on the back of this document which I move to approve the requested certificate of appropriateness for the demolition case number 24056 six as a residential structure at 2500 pass girl away and also in closing I'd like to add that we know that we don't have any means really to deny a demolition we can but only for a short period of time so unless um unless the um particular design review is not approved then I I think that it would be probably appropriate or uh there's not a lot of option for us to make a denial thank you thank you you ly can you just confirm this is a contributing structure and not a structure with local historic designation this is a contributing structure but does not have local designations correct it was never locally designated but but it is part of the national register historic historic district and I think as we've talked before if it is a contributing structure in the district that means it is on the national register of his of historic places as a contributing structure to the NR District thank you um I'm asking for reasons of you know a stay of execution is either 30 days or longer depending on one designation or another correct correct um and it says you know it's not the last man standing of its kind so the onus is really on the last man standing of its kind and how many more of these do we have or you know you may over as you know you had a workshop earlier today you know there may be other things that you all may want to look at as far as changes in regulations perhaps but right now the way our regulations are we really don't have a mechanism to stop a demolition for the most part thank you thank you L go ahead I'm sorry I was gon since we the owners have indicated that they are not interested in repairing or rehabbing this particular house and they have indicated that they would like to work with the board in having the new structure fit into the environment I'm going to make a motion to approve the requested certificate of appropriateness for the demolition demolition of case number 240 56 of a residential structure at 2500 passag girl way conditioned on the board's approval of a related residential design review which is case 23081 at 24051 I believe yeah um I I will second that motion but I just want to point out to Mr Mr McCoy is that who's back there yeah I think everyone's read your letter and so we know in detail the diligence you went through to make this decision and I think we're just trying to save time of what's the obvious and so but I do will tell you that I appreciate what you've done and explaining all these things it makes it's easier for us to do some of these things all right so so thank you on that as I said I've made a motion a second the motion so if you want to go ahead and do a roll call Vice chair Hawkin Smith approve member dashel yes member Hurley yes member young yes chair Lowry yes motion carries okay so now that brings us to I guess the next thing is actually 4 C excuse me four E I need new glasses uh the naming of and we'll get back to the discussion item on Mr McCoy in just a moment on your situation okay so this would be for E the naming of 900 Gulfway as first sergeant Harry Met Square my understanding is this is being presented to us to essentially make a recommendation to the commission so I don't know if someone from the staff is going to talk about this or who's going to go forward with this go ahead uh there was a request to the commission to rename the square um so we thought it appropriate to take it to this board in the historic district to see if that would um be something that you would be supporting of and um and then we when we take it to commission um we would um include that in the Agenda Report whatever decision that you all make okay is there anyone here to speak on this issue before we start discussing it I do have a public comment but after you're done okay Terry broat 2841 Alton Drive um I just want to say as you consider the recommendation I just ask that you look into the future um and uh consider others who may follow in Mr metz's example of outstanding citizen citizen citizenry should you decide to recommend the approval of this I ask that you also consider um put ere a Perpetual Memorial with um in conjunction with this um we're going to run out of parks I'll say that um and I expect that we will have follow on citizens who also uh do um outstanding things and representing our city representing our country and will um have recommendations come forward like this and I think this is an opportunity to say um Mr Mets exemplifies all of those qualities that we find outstanding and this is an opportunity to say here is a park that we've named after him and here is a plaque something in bronze or something like that and then something you can add names to to say this is the people that follow in his footsteps so um it's just a way to think forward and not just of this case in one instance and so I just bring that to your attention thank you thank you thank you okay so as far as a little discussion about this the the first observation that I would make is right we have limited facilities uh you know uh I can't think of his name who was the guy that started the pastor girl hotel with the French name Augie no no no wait wait back in 1898 or okay why is it coming coming to me yeah anyway yeah yeah I wish I so the guy that started pass girl recent you know recently like 125 years ago uh H laat yes Mr lazat has nothing named after him I don't think so you know we kind of got to be careful as the who we decide should be you know considered me memorialized nothing against Harry Mets I his service was great my point is I think at this stage what we essentially we have is we have two letters saying recommending or asking we do this one or one email saying don't and one citizen who says be careful with it and it seems to me that that we aren't in a position to make a recommendation without having a lot more information from the citizens about if this is something they really want to do or not because you know that location which I think is the where you know the uh Paradise Grill is is you know really that's the foundation of the old Pastor Grill hotel that b burnt down there's no Memorial aspect for that and so uh I don't I I think I'm not prepared to make any kind of recommendation the commission with this little work being put into whether this is something that the entire citizens of passag Grill want if the whole historic district said oh yes this is something we should do then I might say okay but if it's just a couple people asking uh who I'm not even sure live in passor Grill is that really something that we want to do again no offense to Mr Mets he was a great guy as much as I knew knew him but you know we do have limited areas I think to be naming things and maybe a plaque that's why we just need to discuss this maybe a a wall of of fame or something at Paradise Grill would make sense where we could add people with plaques or you know you know there's people that build they have dedicated benches on the beach which are nice things to do as well that memorialize the folks and but to take that whole section and name it after a person that although contributed a lot to passor grill you know I don't want to get in one of these games where who knows who has more popularity than the other one who did more than the other guy and you know in the future 30 years from now maybe that maybe some the president of unit States being born on passor girl can we rename that after him then or it I just think it's a it's a it's a difficult decisions to be making about those things Jennifer is there a process or certain criteria that we have in place like the naming of the bridge and the naming of other Parks was there any there was a resolution passed that we were able to pull up on when we have done this in the past but it doesn't give a criteria um and then as far as existing memorials to add names to we have something on upam Beach and is there's something at the shuffle board court too shuffle board yeah I think there's there's a dedication to a woman that did a lot to keep the shuffle board court together I can't think of her name there you go thank you so and and and what but how would this be memorialized would it would there be a a sign a plaque uh and honestly I didn't know that the Bayway bridge was named the command sergeant major Lee literal Medal of Honor Causeway and bridge I don't there's a sign this is the first I there's there's a sign there's a sign on the side of the road you might not pay attent you know it's just oh there is ceremony so I yeah I didn't even know that so I I would guess like how would this well that's the be memorialized I think that's part of it we don't really have any guidelines about it we just have a suggestion and I think you know we have to think through a little bit as opposed to just I don't know if you recall a couple years ago when there was proposal to take pigal Park the uh east end of that and make it a national Medal of Honor reflection pool or something like that and uh so that project um is is going to mckenny park and it it's going to be built with grant funding in the next year but what I'm saying is you know things happen like now that's where they stage all the equipment to fix the street you know so we have a limited amount of space I know this isn't a situation but are we talking about a plaque or or or heading over the building itself I mean I just don't know how what we're doing this how we're actually saying this and so it seems to me we ought to maybe as part of the historic board we talk about plaqu sometimes on people's individual houses and I think it's I I don't have any issue at all with Mr Mets being honored in some fashion but but I don't know if we want to be naming public structures after people as opposed to maybe doing some sort of as I said before uh you know Hall of Fame plaque or something like that because then it just becomes like popularity contest and who puts their name in first so I would like to know a lot more about how the citizens feel about it before we would even consider that kind of recommendation I would like to add only because so I looked into this a little bit further um um there is the honor walk at upam Beach and I discovered an article which was published May 12th of 1999 um which says that officials are planning to use the park to honor people who have made contributions to the city in the military by Community work as city employees or through large donations so I think that more or less the work has already been done as far as making the honor walk a place that we honor the people that were you know had significant contributions to our city and also maybe served in a branch of the military or maybe with our fire department or retired from our fire department or a former police department or city employees so I think kind of to piggy back on to take a whole square and name it after one person we are running out of City space and why would we do that if there's already an honor walk um the square and its totality if I'm not mistaken I did the Google Maps it's 184 ft the um honor walk it up on beach is a tenth of a mile so that gives us a lot more space to be able to honor the people that did make significant contributions um and I was also thinking about it and there might even be a way where if you go to the city's website and you click on the upam beach location and you have the honor walk maybe to click on that and have a highlight of each person from the community that was represented there biography of each honor who were they because so I walked over to the shuffel board court my mom and I and we looked and the sign is beautiful for Trudy Perry but if I was just a visitor coming to the community I would be like well who who is Trudy Perry it's a great name I'm sure she's a great lady but I don't know what she did so I think it's important if we're going to be recognizing people what was their contribution what did they do how did they serve our community Andor our country because otherwise they just a name and it kind of gets lost in Translation and I read through the article uh which again was published May 12th of 1999 and sadly none of the names that were mentioned are here any longer and so then what we have to go back in the archive and try to figure out who they were to our community they shouldn't be forgotten nor should the people that are recognized so that's just my two sents is there an honor walk application or I'm looking at it right now on our website there's a form you fill out well wait can we table this for yeah I think I think this is just discussion as we have right now and there's a lot of things look into uh there's a lot of options I think that really aren't presented to us and we need to take some time and think about it because I will say this and I think what uh member Delle said it's great dashel pardon me is about the honor walk but you know Harry Mets was a passor grill guy you know what I mean which is a historical thing and so maybe it would make sense you know to do something uh more localized in the historic district I mean that's what we're we're been asked as a historic district to make a decision not as a city of St Pete Beach and so as we think about this it might there might be something that we could because we're going to keep getting these I'm I I would imagine I mean you know I think someone wanted to rename the park didn't they Rec L the last Park was Peg Creed like 12 years ago no no no I thought there was a didn't this didn't somebody try to want to make it name it Harry Mets park or something just that anyway I don't remember my point was you know I'd like to see people be more satisfied with benches and trees and entire buildings I suppose and so I think because there's you know just limited space in people and history goes on and on so uh I I would get I would ask this that the members of this board think about this because this is the first thing we've kind of really talked about it and perhaps at the next meeting next month we can then maybe come up with some thoughts on how we might want to deal with in more practical matters before we make a recommendation to the commission including maybe notifying the citizens and getting some input from those individuals do we have time for audience comment on this issue sure step on up though again for the record you got to state your name yes oh well unless you scream but no um something Patricia Lopez and something just popped into my mind um we have the history museum there and maybe do a a brick walkway through the History Museum and have the person's name on that brick that's a good that's excellent suggestion History Museum could have something in there correspond with each name okay that's a good idea I mean while we talking this I was thinking about when Mary Pier was falling in and I guess the money wasn't there to rebuild it and so citizens were buying individual boards and putting their names on it which was a nice Community effort back 30 years ago so is that Mak sense that maybe we just pass this to talk about a little bit next month and maybe someone so talk to the museum as well if that opens it you know doors I do think we need to establish some sort of criteria or formal process so we don't end up being accused of playing favors or right racing to the finish for someone we love but um I know the Historical Museum has been looking at bricks for a while in front of their building and then also in passag girl Park I do think it's still appropriate for Harry and the honor walk to even if it's not sure there and maybe somewhere else as well but certainly qualifies for the honor walk too okay and let's hope they use the old bricks and not anything new right ring me yeah okay so is that we'll get that pass the next week I mean next month to talk about that all right thank you thank you thank you okay now we are back to a discussion item number five a the design review 2451 on 2500 Sunset way and there's Brandon so apologize for the typo and the staff report uh two it is 24051 not 2351 so I just wanted to give a brief overview we did take a look at both the zoning and the design of this our design consultant looked at the design of the building they had only one recommendation which was made the only substantive staff recommendation was that the renderings um and I believe what went out with your packet may have actually been a map instead of renderings but you can see the front of the structure sorry here her concern was that the elevations in the building permit did not show the color of the garage door and she just wanted to make sure that it was consistent with the color of the surrounding and that there weren't any um disperate textures that would um cause a garage door to stand out that was a similar recommendation that was made for the design review last month um I did take a look at the zoning the home is compliant with the house small zoning Standard Building type uh this is a little bit unique property for the area it's actually the only house small lot in the immediate vicinity the major differences with that compared to a house medium which is the typical type of lot that we bring forward is that the side setbacks are 2 feet closer to the side Set Side property line they're three instead of five it also allows the developer to get up to 5T closer to the front lot line at 5T instead of a minimum of 10 um however I did want to point out that the property or the designer did choose to set the home back further than the actually the recommended 10- foot range um for this property he has the hom set at about 13 ft from the front property line and this is TP this is actually the reverse of what we typically see but the homes to the North and the South are actually set closer to the street than the subject home will be um however the home will be built at nearly the the maximum height permitted for the zoning District I did look at the zoning or standards for the property uh the Landscaping looked fine the setbacks the other elements of the property all look like they met the zoning code so I didn't have any recommendations for zoning the recommendation from our design consultant was to request that the garage door be um you know not not stand out not in start contrast to the rest of the home and as always I included this condition that if there were to be any major changes to the design of the building that' be brought back to the board for um reconsideration I know that we do have Michael McCoy available and If you have any questions for me I'd be happy to answer them can the only question I have only again a lot of these questions I have for this curiosity and know where we are compared to other houses and stuff so what is the maximum what is the the highest point of this house being the peak of the roof in the center just so I no for future reference sure and I apologize if it's in there I couldn't quite figure it out the The Ridge of the roof is just below 40 feet as measured from the ground and that would be it looks like it's about 39 ft there it's it's about a foot lower than it could be under the maximum I thank you uh uh trying to see if they have any details on the piling system here I was say they may know oh yeah they don't but uh that was a question I was gonna have Mr McCoy just to see what he has to say but and also this is just an observation you realize the pictures of the cinos house also had the Porsche 911 in the picture that is depicted on the drawings of this so the color rendering it's red yes I'm glad to see that we only have those kind of cars down there okay so any anybody have questions for Brandon I mean these are pretty detailed and there's lot quite a bit explanation for much much more than they I would say normally are I guess I'll ask you this Brandon just because I think I do almost every time but as far as the details like the the the sighing is kind of a shingle sighing and then I don't know what you call those tails that are like under the rafters on the outside what are those called yes I was going to say gingerbread but whatever as far as those kind of specific details that looks so good MH when we approve or the city approves the the buildout is it going to be exactly that same thing they still have to put the corales in there they have to put an arched you know uh in the back there's there's there's arched open areas well talk just just generally um typically there would be some staff discretion in that or at least design consultant discretion now I believe in this particular project and Mr McCoy can speak to this I do believe this is ready to move forward so I would assume you would be getting the design that you're seeing here exactly but he can confirm that well I guess I was wondering how like for example you know if you look at I'm looking at a picture that shows the West facade so that's from the beach looking at it and there's a gate and the gate is surrounded by columns that look like they have like Field Stone or flagstone on them okay when it's built do they have to have Fieldstone or flagstone or they can they put you know uh stucco or something else I mean how detailed do these have to be when they're accepted or how much can be changed when they're actually built if at all so specifically for the gates and the the fences we do have material standards for that so that would be something that we would generally expect to be as as shown but um usually accessory elements are not part of the design review it's specific to the home okay I'm just because you know because like I said this is so detailed and it looks so good are those flood vents in the wall too on that rectang it looks like that we could confirm they look more like lighting oh could be doggy doors I'm just kidding though but uh yeah well we can ask Mr McCoy but okay thank you Brandon good afternoon Michael McCoy McCoy residential designs and I'm acting on behalf of the applicant uh Mr Mrs McGovern um couple of couple of things I do want to point out as far as the garage door and perhaps a reviewer didn't quite catch what's going on here there's actually if you if I don't know if if we have a ground floor plan but there's actually a carport that garage door is 24 ft underneath the house so you're you're not going to see you're really not going to see the door I can see it yeah and and part of the reason we did it that way is is to really soften the effect of having a narrow house with a garage door staring you right in the face so that's always going to be open like that so that's going to always be open so what you're seeing in that colored rendering that angled rendering with the with the Porsche there that's open that's always going to be open the doors actually set back about 20 22 24 ft that's an excellent that's it's it's kind of a nice way to do instead of just all garage um and then as far as the height we actually 9 and2 in lower than the maximum allow so we're trying to be sensitive to that um as far as you know you were questioning things like uh the rafters you know the rafter tails and the brackets and that sort of thing I mean it it certainly is our attention that what I'm showing here is is what is drawn uh the the client is in love with it and they you know gave me the the go ahead to do what you know creatively I felt was necessary so they they have no intention as far as I know of cheaping it up and taking things off if they do I'm going to have a problem with them well yeah I just wonder from the the C how much enforce is enforceable on that kind and I do think since since it has to go through the design review for the historic board I do believe that the that the board the building department has some leeway if we start making changes um you know any kind of sort of material changes to it that you know that we have to come back before you if I'm correct am I correct on that Brandon so I mean for instance we decid go hey you know the guy wants to put in sh um a tile roof I mean that would be totally different I you know we'd have to come back but you know we're I'm trying my best with these new homes because I'm really sensitive to pass Grill I've been doing a lot of work down here for years and I'm very sensitive to the historic district and and really sensitive to trying when we have the opportunity to you know W with an existing home particularly that is contributing to somehow Salvage it you know renovate it make it make it work this was a totally kind of a mess of a house to be honest with you uh several years ago I did one we actually lifted it and built a garage underneath it put a deck on the back of it but it was a little box it's pretty easy to do and you know and it met the owner's needs so by by by by trying to retain some of the character of of coastal and cottage with you know shingles and and and open Rafters and things like that just trying to keep maintain that character as best I can of Pastor gril um so want to throw that out y if you have any questions any specific questions be more than happy to answer are you using Theon pilings in your con yes yeah you know when we get into these into these pile supportive foundations you really have three three options you have wood driven piles which is probably used 95% of the time aast concrete and then the other is is helical piles so screw piles the uh you know more often than not especially with single family wood driven piles are the are the that's what we do and there's a lot of reasons primarily they are definitely less expensive I don't know the numbers cont tractor could you know um talk to talk to that as far as the difference in price but yeah I mean it's something we always run into it's not it's doesn't matter if it's pelis County or I mean not it doesn't matter if it's Clear Water Beach or here you know it's always a mess when you would driven piles and do you know only because uh the our speaker talked about how Cooperative the guys were that were driving the pylons do they have some sort of like insurance Insurance kind of scenario that they can take honestly let them do that I mean be recognizing they're responsible for any kind of damage maybe that I mean that's a good question I honestly don't know I wish I did know that but I I really don't yeah because I mean you there's a certain way obviously have to have to drive them and they have to drive it down to get the resistance and it can it can definitely shake some structures well I have a question that has doesn't do with the house but it has to do with the owners do you know whether or not these people have owned that house for a long time or their family has or not for a long time not to my knowledge I mean I don't think they've owned it that long and the reason I asked that is only because some time ago I met some people that lived in one of those two or three houses right there and they were telling me how their family have been there for like three generations as a home and they had a bunch of old photographs I was trying to see if I could get you photograph well what's interesting is when I look at the uh penel County Appraiser site and I look at the history of permits I don't find anything prior to I think 2001 so you know the the house out front that which I'm assuming is the original Cottage because it's just sitting on the ground and then it looks to me like the there was an addition behind it that's elevated on pilings right but I have I I don't I can't find anything on that find out the generations have owned that house interested they're making copies of their photographs and stuff for I I couldn't find too much when I was doing all my research on it right but I know it was a rental situation too it's you know so nice thing is we're just going back to single family so it does it the thing it really unfortunately just wasn't really taken care of with the years okay any other questions for this gentleman good okay thank you for time thank you Mr McCoy you're welcome okay I think we had some do we have any other there was a discussion item Workshop yes um we also talked about there was supposed to be on the on the I think there was something about the garbage pickup update but I think that's kind of rendered mood at this moment so I'm not asking and then just because the city is approaching that in a different fashion we're going to have a town hall meeting and stuff about that thing to get more input from folks before anything is done is my understanding so okay so we're talking about the uh workshop with the Commissioners and I don't know where we're at on that Jennifer or maybe you can just give us a feel for that I would say it's probably going to be not this month Jenny would because we there's a couple Workshops the commission wanted you'd really have to ask the city clerk I don't know yeah I would say sometime next month but it's today was the first step yeah I get that check yeah um do you know whether this I can't think of what we call that thing where they send the invite evites out basically about certain days thing yeah yeah they I'll go with the city clerk on that okay can I make a motion on this issue which issue oh no it's just a discussion it just discussion yeah we're going to see that at a later date I think think right the the design review or no it's a design case review it we we added it as a discussion item so if if you could still make a motion on that just okay you want us to do that okay I was I was justess confused about that okay yes please H so I would like to move that we approve the design review case 23051 with two conditions and those two conditions I have my finger on it number one the garage door shall be designed and colored to remain indistinct from the surrounding structural elements number two major alterations to the residents while under construction including significant exchange or alteration of facade materials window design or Frontage elements or colors as determined by staff shall require this case to return to the historical historic preservation board I'm I'm not going to I'm going to clarify that for a minute because I think the explanation was it doesn't really have a garage door and so you define what that means it does has a garage and a carport there is a garage door yeah but the garage door is recessed way back in there correct so but you can still see it from the street W it's not a Comm thing I think the rwer might looking at it thinking was saw it's not yeah okay so the condition is just asking for it to disappear it's not going to be painted purple or all right something like that it's just okay and and then again I don't know you I think we got to clarify again what's the number here it's 2451 yeah I think that was incorrect on what you read um so that they that's the typo so okay so it's the motion's on 24051 okay I'll second the motion then roll call please member young yes Vice chair Hawkins Smith yes member dashel yes member Hurley yes chair Lowry yes motion carries okay sorry I was confused on that we didn't have to do the motion then so now I guess we've actually done all the business we have of today right so our next meeting is October 3rd and for