e e e e e e e e e e May 20th meeting of the planning board for the city of St Pete Beach um if youall uh rise and pledge allegiance I pledge aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all roll call member Angeles here member sua here member hubard here Vice chair D amert here we have a quum okay um do I have uh any comments on the agenda or a motion for approval are there any changes to it any changes right man I'm I move to approve second roll call member sea yes member hubard yes member Angeles Vice chair debert yes motion carries okay uh do we have any audience comments today not seeing any all right um our action item is going to be uh the election of officers for the 2425 um approval of minutes first huh approval of minutes first oh number three oh I skipped right over thank you do we has is there any changes to the minutes um I just had I think these were more uh just typo kind of things on the 18th the ones from the 18th um on page it it's page five of seven of it uh it just commented and maybe I was just misunderstanding it but like the last sentence of the where it says attorney lease Batel um when you go to the end of it it says for the phases to allow those units to be absorbed not the market without the cup expiring was that really meaning to be said that for them to be able to be absorbed by the market without without the cop expiring no I just I know that's minor but I just I with what this covered I just feel like we need to make sure everything is oh absolutely correct absolutely and then the second one was um down farther where it shows in number 25 it says Doom crossovers will be elevated with of already FD so I think that was just supposed to be saying we'll be elevated with Fe FD permitted or are they trying to say that it's already permitted so I just was kind of again trying to make sure clarification on what the correct verbage was on on those minutes what is what is your recollection of those and then maybe we can um I well I think that the first one what where my head was with that one was that I remember there being discussion about um making sure that like it was going in phases so that the um units could be absorbed by the market over that period of time rather than just flooding the market with them they would be absorbed by doing in a smaller grouping so that was just kind of where my head was on that um and on the other one I just was looking because it was saying I I don't know if like the of already just shouldn't be in there is kind of what so then it would just read Dune crossovers will be elevated with FD permitted at grade Crossings so again just was looking to make sure that everything's cleaned up in there Brandon do you have a comment on that on I'm pretty sure you're correct they wanted to bring them online slowly to not have too many units that didn't have the people to to rent it just with How It Was Written right now was a little bit confusing I just wanted to make sure like I said that we've got clean minutes for this meeting Brandon is that was that your recollection also that was my understanding I can go back and watch it again just make sure but that's that's what I understand that's your recollection we want to move to how how do we change the minutes I don't know you don't approve those I'll send them back okay but May 4th we can go ahead and or I mean March 4th um I didn't have any changes on that I mean I would move to approve those meeting minutes on from March 4th I'll second that roll call member Huard yes member Angeles member sea yes Vice chair deert yes motion carries okay now we can go on to uh action items um do we is that handled by the board or is that a okay so I guess first thing I'm sorry I was just going to lead it off if I may please uh at the beginning of every I guess after there's an election there is an election of a chair and vice chair for the remaining year um so that's what this is for it's it's electing a chair for the planning board um obviously there's one person absent today and a vice chair to carry out the meetings for the next year okay um all right then I guess we're open for nominations for um the upcoming year and I would like to nominate our most prestigious long-term held board chair um for the chairman sounds good to me so if you could just make a motion to appoint uh Tiffany sea as the committee chair for 2024 2025 I make a motion to appoint Tiffany sea for the uh board chair for 2425 need a second for that correct second that second that okay roll call member Angeles yes member sua yes member hubard yes Vice chair damper yes motion carries now we want to go to Vice chair right yeah do we have any nominations for vice chair continuing in that Ro I I don't have a problem Contin if that's what the board wishes sure I'll make a motion to appoint Tom dford as a vice chair for the following year I'll second R call well chair SAA yes member hubard yes member Angeles Vice chair deert yes motion carries okay um discussion items comprehensive plan I guess did you want to start that or do that go to the I believe it go right straight to Brandon I just want to point out one thing uh chair damper if I may we went over audience comments and I think someone walked in from the audience ma'am did you want to speak during the public comments okay I just want to be sure no problem good yeah all right good afternoon welcome member Angeles so this is um a continuation from the process that started last year um I know three of our members that are present were involved with the discussions with the city commission to select a firm for the comprehensive plan evaluation this is the second evaluation that we're going through we are currently going through the evaluation and appraisal report process that is a very technical update it doesn't always need to be it can be much more complex but for the seven-year cycle that we had to go through for the evaluation and appraisal report um when we started in 2021 it was determined that we were only really going to be making the technical updates that we needed to make um to stay into compliance with uh State and county law uh this this process that we're talking about today is much more involved or might might be much more involved if we could pull up the PowerPoint um like I said uh the current process the evaluation of appraisal report process is um largely technical it doesn't involve any changes to uses density intensity or other development standards uh late 2023 the city commission selected Calvin gardano and Associates to lead a more Vision focused review of the city's development standards this will involve a more intense valuation of current development standards uh so the area of focus was narrowed down it isn't the entire community redevelopment District it is three zoning districts in two distinct parts of the city um at the Northern end we have downtown the tc1 and the tc2 zoning districts and uh further south we have the large resort districts these are the districts that are going to be the focus of this review at least based on the scope that's been provided um so there are four phases this is just a summary of the scope that was in your packet the first is the input data collection analysis phase which would start with the step one city commission listening session um this will be after this here uh this meeting today an initial meeting with the city commission to understand the concerns objectives and expected outcomes of this process it would move on to a staff kickoff meeting this would deal with the more technical aspects of the the project set the project managers um address any kind of public engagement structure that's going to be undertaken identify the stakeholders and the venues who staff and who the consultant need to reach out to to get them involved with this process and determine any kind of social media engagement step two would be the actual public engagement they currently have in the scope two public meetings prior to the initial report being produced meeting one would be a identification meeting looking at Major concerns any kind of community ideals that can be gleaned from the different um features that they're going to have at the meeting these would be things like audience polling investment voting scenarios and character boards to determine if there's any kind of visual consensus for the development in these districts moving forward in between meeting one and two the consultant is proposing to send out surveys these will be both two attendees of the meeting as well as anybody who is interested but wasn't able to attend the first meeting this would allow for them to expand on any kind of data that they collected at meeting one and in meeting two there would be a culmination of the information that was uh determined from meeting one and from the surveys any kind of common themes any kind of common vision for meeting one and also an evaluation of the survey sent post meeting one Workshop uh step three would be to come up with growth scenarios so these would be any kind of alternative growth scenarios and not necessarily alternative to the current plan but just Alternatives in general what what would happen under a business as usual approach any kind of Alternatives that may come out of these meetings um at a 20-year Horizon there was a big Focus both I believe through the planning board as well as the city Commission on there being some kind of visual modeling you can see on the right side of the screen this is a program called arcgis Urban it's a way of taking the development standards that cities have in their codes and saying okay if they were built out this is what the city could possibly look like um the buildings may not look exactly like that but when you're looking at stories when you're looking at Green Space requirements how could the developments be placed on a lot under the current code under potential future alternative codes so there was a a big emphasis on making sure that they utilize that software or similar software that helps to identify the development that could take place in the future uh this would be an opportunity to generate vision statements and policy recommendations and assess development scenarios for compliance with state law and that would be something that the city would be handling um through our own consultant looking at whether or not if these development Alternatives were to move forward would there be any complications introduced um due due to state law requirements phases two and three um would be the Drafting and the presentation of any revisions through a recommendation and revisions report this would be the presentation of a recommendations report to the city Commission two hearings I did want to mention that staff um is going to recommend that there be a third public engagement hearing prior to phase two this would be the initial presentation of the recommendations report before it moves on to City commission give the public an Al an alternative to weigh in and make sure that the um the outcome of the meeting was successfully captured in the recommendations report but after that it would move on to the city commission two hearings it would be an opportunity to solicit feedback from the city Commission on those comprehensive plan and Land Development code amendments based on the preferred growth scenarios and I wanted to just make it clear that this report would not be actual amendments to the code it would be really a summary document a vision document for presentation the phase four would be the actual amendments if there are any to the comprehensive plan and that would go through the very same process that the evaluation and appraisal report did and is currently going through um this would be an opportunity to ensure that the plan is consistent with a countywide plan um that would be commenced at the start of the process and then they would be in the consultant would be involved through the three hearings that requ that are required to get these amendments to the state um member gonzal was not present but she did make some recommendations um I just wanted to bring those up just in case they mirror anything that the board has um they we need to be inclusive in um encompassing stakeholder inclusion making sure that the the representative sample of the public is is involved in this process she did want to make sure that we um any amendments or any alternatives that are going to be presented are consistent with the countywide plan at the early stage reading through the scope it looks like the engagement with Ford pelis would really be at the back end we did talk with a consultant before this meeting they did confirm that they are going to be working with the county very early on and they they have been responsible for multiple Municipal amendments to um local codes that would affect the countywide plan so they do they're familiar with that process but they will be engaged with the county at a very early stage uh she recommended that other relevant boards be included in the recommendations report review prior to submitting to the planning board and City commission and that the report be available in advance for public scrutiny possibly a posting on the website just making sure that it's available before it makes it to the city commission and planning board hearings and it better to define whether there will be invitation sent to attend public meetings and how input will be provided typically when we see a development application it's a responsibility of the developer as well as the city at a later stage to notice the meeting and making sure that the public gets involved um there was just interest in making sure that we the these meetings be well advertised that um to to increase attendance that's all I have again that's really just a summary of the scope that's been drafted and sent to us it has gone through one revision at the staff level we did want to bring this forward to you um to get your input before moving on to the city commission so if you have any other thoughts I'd be happy to write them down DAV do you have any comments was that the scope or is there a more detailed document we should review or what what was sent out with the packet is all we've received so far um it was it was a draft scope and we we've made it clear to them and they understand that we'll get more details in terms of you know cost and all of that but in terms of the overall outline I believe this is what they've presented okay what um what kind of timeline does this represent in real life well the Amendments Alone um it's that's probably a six-month process the engagement I would think based on the two public meetings and the three hearings especially if we're going to be taking it to boards I I would expect it to be about a year does at least a year okay um during the process and and based on on the history that we've had here going through these a year is a long period of time for people to get engaged and unengaged and re-engaged and and is there is there places in this that that we get to a point we have all right here's our understanding this is where we are right now and now we're going to move forward so that we don't get down the road to step three to step four and start discussing step one again m is there I guess that's more of a legal question I mean everybody's got a right to speak I understand that but timing is you know if it if it's a year it's one thing if it's two years or three years that's whole whole new set of voting population whole new set of people on the beach whole new set of ideas and where the beach should go um is there is there any way for us to put those benchmarks in and say okay here we are now we're going to discuss this going forward not we're not going back to number one yes we can I mean whether or not the commission or board members you know abide by the timeline is a different story and the board members and the commission will change but um it's up to the consultant really you know I mean they're going to put together some kind of phasing plan I'm assuming with the scope of services which they've kind of done and um but even something like the vcaa project and some of these things that just went to the city commission there was neighborhood meetings that came forward and they're practically starting from the beginning again because the commission you know wanted some things changed and and that that's their prerogative to do so timing is one of those things that you can't control in this process unfortunately um but for all you know these public meetings go great and they put together a product that everyone loves and it gets passed on on first reading um do I see that happening probably not but um it can go either way I understand all right well that's you know that's kind of what I thought you were going to say and I was just hoping that there was some way that we could I mean we can ask them to do a timeline for us with the benchmarks and then try to stick to it just know there's a lot of moving parts and you know commission's going to change in the course of the next year twice over right and we we do have some some reserves um I believe the estimate came in initially for the initial scope at significantly less than what the city commission was willing to allocate at least the previous commission um however you know engagement methods take it can be expensive and um we also you know we we want to make sure that there's a solid process in place when this goes to the commission that's the really the reason for that initial meeting before even getting to the staff kickoff we want to have a timeline we want to have a a workflow that we can follow through the process and again it could be iterative later on but we just want to make sure that we have a process and an agenda to follow that that brings point would you go back to I guess as one of your early slides please um um I think that was one go go back um it was one where where there was going to be a uh a another commission set up character boards what you know what is a character board their their renderings typically um oh they you're talking about boards not people Discerning what what the character of the neighborhood's going to be good visual character boards right right all right you're a character Tom thank you very much I was just I was concerned when I saw that then all of a sudden who's going to decide what's pretty and what's not okay thank you were you going to discuss anything on the um conditional use that was part of that is that after your for the application out that'll be that'll be next okay so which entity determines Milestones I I saw in well are there two step twos I think there's a step two on the previous page too you're right that should have been step three apologize so the step the first step to with project management is the city dictating milestones for the contract to meet or does the contractor lay out a schedule and and we're just trying to keep them on that schedule um it would be a back and forth I mean we would they would present a timeline to us or a milestone um set and then we would we would decide from there okay It ultimately goes back to commission once we get the dollar amount and have to get that approved so okay okay any other questions all right okay thank you uh the second item is related um just in terms of General planning board engagement um you know I'm thinking that we'll probably at least have an update report each month or every other month to just keep you up to date on what's going on with the process but I did want to get your thoughts in terms of Engagement with the city commission um in the past the board has selected either a member or the chair to be the one to speak with the city commission at at the public at City commission hearings um does the board have any kind of preference for how you would engage with the commission would you like to see um periodic workshops would you like to have a member who engages with the commission what is your preference if you if you have one if if our other members are amenable to it I would love to do that I I had talked to you about making a a discussion item for this meeting to talk about that because I feel like I've been on this board for 14 months and the only comprehensive plan work we've done was an hour and 6 minutes May 23rd of last year so I would love to get as involved as I can and and maybe I'll just be someone nagging everyone involved to move along but but yeah I mean I'm motivated to put put that effort in if I could be appointed to do so I I think that'd be great I think we need to speak in one voice I think that that we need to have uh workshops also or maybe it's just planning board meetings where then we all that information goes through you and so that you're speaking one voice for the entire planning board yeah yeah I'm happy to take feedback pass it on I'm obviously I'm not making any decisions on behalf of the board just it's more effective to get up at a commission meeting and say I'm here as a member of the planing board not private citizen yeah so to to codify that we would put action items rather than discussion items so it's a vote for whatever goes to commission correct yeah yes and I definitely Envision joint workshops yes as well um yeah it's going to be a hybrid probably multiple yeah okay do we need to make a that formal or okay good no if there's a consensus um tag I don't really I don't really know what the engagement methods specifically are going to be I don't know if that means member Hubbert attending the neighborhood meeting meetings um you know kind of what that entails but um I hear a consensus from you also I think the plan is to get the scope of service approved by the city commission sign an agreement and then you know the ball will be will begin so yeah okay okay um third item is the conditional use permit application modifications I have a quick presentation on that as well we get that pulled up so uh this was discussed a few months ago um but I just wanted to cover it quickly uh there's fairly wide variance in the types of conditional use permit applications that we get many of them the planning board does not see uh they range in scale all the way from three family docks to multi-year new lodg and construction uh the current conditional use perit applications minimum submittal requirements are not sufficient to meet the expectations of Staff the board and the commission when it comes to more substantial projects and um it's also difficult because we tend to get to the staff level review the technical Review Committee and often the applicants missing documents that staff needs to review that the planning board or the city commission might expect to see so it's also this is also an opportunity to better prepare the applicants for the submitt and ensure that reviews can be thorough at the appropriate stages so the current minimum submitt requirements are a completed application a proof of ownership and agent authorization A current survey and a scaled site plan um and again that's for any type of application staff can require uh specific to the application type additional documents above and beyond that but it's very limited and you look at the several hundred Pages uh packets that you've see received recently and that doesn't even come close to scratching the surface so um we have amended the application this was in your packet um as as a draft this has not been something that we' put on the website yet I I just wanted to really get your feedback and we split it up into three different application types the first would be an amended requirement for all applications so going from docks all the way up to hotels this would be a requirement for all of them um there is already a requirement for the site plan but we would ask for a zoning Matrix this would cover the typical development standards setbacks density intensity Building height lot area impervious surface and parking requirements among other specific District requirements we also ask for a land We'll be asking for a landscaping plan when the conditional use permit includes a new structure an expansion or a parking area impact under the code these are the three types of projects where Landscaping needs to be evaluated so we would be um asking for a landscaping plan for those type of projects for anything involving a new building or an addition uh we would ask for elevations we typically already receive these as part of the site plan application we would just ask that it be provided at the conditional use permit stage any kind of site and streetcape Design Elements I know we discussed these considerably with the conditional use permits recently but in the community redevelopment district there are requirements for sidewalk expansion Frontage improvements other elements like that that we would like to see reflected on the site plan typically in the Land Development code and in the compr ensive plan a 51 peak hour trip so whatever the identified peak hour for the development is is where a transportation study becomes optional um we would ask that a transportation methodology be provided whenever that 51 peak hour trip threshold is met um it may not lead to an actual study but it's an evaluation with our consultant to look at the impact of the project Whenever there is a building over 5,000 square ft um we're requesting that there be front and rear when the rear is the Waterway or a beach rendering is provided uh for very small projects um projects of 2 3,000 square fet uh renderings can be fairly expensive so we wanted to weigh the cost of a smaller maybe more local project with a much larger development where um you know the board and the commission would definitely want to see the the impact of that project relative to other projects in the vicinity so we're recommending a 5,000 ft threshold for that and any project that needs to comply with the green or energy conservation code requirements the lead requirements in our code we just want a preliminary draft of how those will be met we're one of the very few cities that requires lead as a requirement of development so it can take a lot of a lot of developers off guard when it gets on to a later stage we just want them to be aware early on that this is going to be a requirement s plan depicting uses for multi-building projects this was something that the planning board asked for with tradewins project where when you look at the site plan it's not immediately evident which uses are going where where the meeting space is we just want to make sure that when there's multi-building projects or a large project it be identified where these uses are going to be on the site and a preliminary signage package and then for the largest projects for the new lodging projects or any kind of lodging expansion there is specific Hotel lodging compliant requirements for the floor area ratio we would like to show that they're compliant with that any kind of temporary lodging operation compliance for example the trewin project submitted their hurricane policy that's a requirement that staff looks over at a later stage but many of the hotels already have this in place we just want to see how the current um policy is or is not compliant any kind of required beach access as well as any above and beyond beach access that might be submitted as part of the project and as well as a dune plan for any of the L Resort District projects and the shade study this is something that's required through the conditional use permit criteria but we just want to make sure that it's submitted at an early stage there have been a few other recommendations our city clerk um asked that the applicants for any large projects specifically the ones that are 500 plus pages are just made aw aware early on that they're going to be responsible for the printing cost that can really get up there um so they they just need to be made aware of that early on and that they're also are responsible for the recording cost and that would be for any project a member conil had asked for um plans to be printed larger than standard letter size this wouldn't be every document in the packet but it would be any kind of site plan any kind of rendering any detailed plan they printed at at least 11 by 17 I believe the trade On's packet was printed at that size for the large plans and then any reference to any additional public beach access that will be provided uh that's that's what we've included in the application so far does the planning board have any other recommendations items that you would like to see for any any project type I would be curious if the fee schedule remains appropriate for large resort District projects in terms of what we charge for the conditional use permit application yeah I I imagine it's uh quite a bit of Labor and I don't know that the fee covers that labor we have asked for prepayments for concurrency review but in terms of the staff time I you know I'd be in agreement with you so 100% yeah I I have a comment because can you can you better specify in here which projects require what I mean because some of this it says if it kind of looks like this or if it kind and that can involve somebody from uh doing a small addition to their house to somebody putting you know a brand new hotel in um because because we just don't have the staff I mean we bottom line is we do not have the staff to to do these kind of reviews and at the same same time provide staff for and our staff is I mean you guys are just doing a wonderful job but you know you you can't multiply yourselves anyways um uh something that that can can do a couple things on the smaller projects allow staff to make approvals have so that they they can do that and move forward um secondly if you if we can have it in this so that that on these larger projects and you've got these do we have the capability on these projects to require the hiring of an outside do we have someone on retainer that we can bring in to do that review and that their cost would be directly put put at the large resort so that it's not let's see how I I don't want to make this well it is personal but anyways I I applied for a permit on April 1st and I was number 700 and something from the first of the year in permits and by the time I got my approval which was I believe it was the 1 of May or second or third of May there was over couple thousand permits from fences to electrical to and and if we can get some way so that that these things can filter through because our citizens are are going to you know they're paying property taxes they're paying for staff work if we don't have the staff we need to be able to provide the staff to do this and I have no idea how long it can take now to get a a simple um uh window permit put in or or a simple adding a doorway or adding you know something that that should be here's an engineering drawing the engineer signed off on it you know U the engineer's credentials are good it it meets our criteria boom it's approved rather than taking it through our building official and and having putting it in the same pipeline as the trade wins right does that makes does that make any sense I mean it it does but I do want to say and there will be a point in time where trewin and serata get on to per and that they'll be in that same pipeline but it's not for the conditional used permit side it's not the same pipeline as the building permits conditional use permits they they get a preliminary review by the building official through the technical Review Committee but it's um it is a different process zoning staff entirely handles the conditional use permits so um at at a point in time on most projects they will eventually get to the building permit stage and you know we we are working on that um but the condition use permits handled by zoning staff so and and I recognize that but you know you're I mean how many plans reviewers do we have on staff uh for for the building department well we we have our building official currently as well as a outside you have what three four people three we're most of our Building Services is contracted out right now so it we we are going contract so we're speeding that we're accelerating that with our inspections which we're should be doing 20 to 25 a day we're doing 40 right we have outside inspectors that we're Contracting with our building official is contracted um so we're looking at options as we're moving into budget season how we're going to have this look or you know it's been very difficult to recruit recruit on the building side that's P um public sector they're making way more in the private sector to do same work so we're going we're looking outside into the private sector to augment our staff is that what you're saying currently and is there is there enough of those type of those type of organizations out there that we if the funds are available that we could hire yes so so we're looking at funds available and where we want to appropriate those funds for for our citizens to be able to get get a permit to put a fence up mhm I I I've got to believe that that's got to be crucial in our in our planning going forward not not just in this not you know but across the board with with you guys I mean what do you do with a 500 page you know how how do you go through it and and one building official isn't the electrical official isn't the the plumbing official isn't the structural isn't the engineer you know so so um right now we're averaging 150 building permits in any given day 150 or the size city that we have that's about how many that are in the queue our citizens have to understand how Monumental that is just just to process the paperwork not even to review it I mean it's it's that that's so are we seeing are are we evaluating at all all of these conditional use permits that are coming in because there's probably some that you know is there something that we need to be changing in our code that it doesn't end up having to be a conditional use permit you know is that something that that's being looked at because to to Tom's point I mean that's a lot of a lot of paperwork to be going through I mean 150 a day is crazy um you know as far as the the number of them coming through so is that something being considered or being or looked at building that's building permitting not conditional use okay so why it was brought up today was what we we're finding currently as you still on that first slide there's only four things you need to provide when you submit your application and we're asking for these additional things through this process so it elongates the process because it's a back and forth hey we really need to take a look at this can you provide us with this and so it just it elongates the and you can correct me if I'm wrong Brandon but then we get to TRC and then there's a whole another list of things that we ask and so for transparency reasons just in recent cups it looks like we don't we don't have that information when it goes to TRC we ask for it at TRC and then we're collecting it before it goes to the next step so I think when we first started talking about this is the cup application in itself has no teeth like what they're providing us for us to review we're just not we we can't do a proper review without the additional items that Brandon brought up that to have it complete so we're not even we don't even want to start reviewing it unless we can check all the boxes of all the information that we need in order to properly review it but for the conditional use permits though that we are getting I mean especially I guess I'm looking more for smaller projects meaning residential right um you know are we looking at anything to see if there's any kind of redundancies on those cups that maybe we need to make CH changes to our code or zoning or something like that to um reduce the number of those that we're having to to handle um it's a good point I mean and I can think back to an example where Board of adjustment saw a lot of generators variance coming through so then we adopted a code that allowed for administrative approvals of less than 12 in and it kind of limited the amount of variances so I just it's kind of a comparison to what we're doing now cups um it may seem like we get a lot but unless Brandon corrects we don't really get that many cups Just because there are very specific issues in which you're required to get one outdoor music outdoor dining and then some of the resorts that you've gotten the permits it's it's just difficult I mean a lot of people are putting a lot of money into the city right now residential and Commercial and it's just um I think sometimes they get us confused with the city of St Pete but we're not that right we don't have a planning staff of 30 um so this is a good conversation because I'm hoping people are watching and they and they understand that patience is is key here we're doing the best we can as a city but we're also I wouldn't say we're short staffed I think we have great staff it's just there's only so much they can do every day we are short staff um and the the next conversation that we're about to have we're actually adding more requirements of permits just because there's a lot of work in our R of way and I don't want to take away from that discussion but we're actually adding um sections of the the code that that are going to require people get permits where we thought they were already required to do so so it's actually going to add to the amount of permits being applied for which which goes it's a broader thing than just a cup I mean it's a totally broader thing it's it's a staffing thing and I'm hoping that our commission will take a look at these board meetings and say you know you you've got to take care of our citizens and you know we've got people that are investing a whole lot of money in this beach as as our attorney said and we have to be able to meet their their needs and and and at least in some reasonable time frame because with 150 a day coming in over you know over a what is it 22 day month workday month and then start multiplying it then you have the big ones uh we we have to find a way we whether it's provide more funding to to hire outside sources but you can't stop that those people wanting to put put in a pool wanting to redo their Windows wanting to put a new roof on wanting to do fencing that kind of stuff that's just you know I wonder if there's a way to filter over the counter permits exactly has been referred to because we've had a lot of permits that are like you know there was a business that wanted to remove their dumpster and that went through a 3-we permitting timeline and they were getting fined every single day of that permanent timeline when that should have been something that was just stamped that day and doesn't really need a lot of review so I wonder if there's a way to filter smaller projects versus larger projects well before Chris on that specific one I do think it's important if people ask first it'll usually help the situation as opposed to just assume you can do oh yeah because we deal with that in Code Enforcement all the time and the reason there was fines acur on that one is because there was something put there without permission um which wouldn't have occurred had they asked for permission first so although it's frustrating I mean there are other jurisdictions that literally have one day a week in which they process permits that's it so I I just you know be patient with us go ahead if I may Kristen kman community development director and just going back to like a dump for example there both zoning has to review and building so from a zoning standpoint we do need the site plan or the survey there may be details that we need to see that on the Fly can't be done um I agree with Matthew on how he was saying come in visit us what do I need um because it does take ta staff a lot of time when we review it and we're like your survey is not the scale we that's a requirement and we do get a a lot of um Kickback on that but that that's what we need that's what we require so I mean it works on both ends but we also don't have the staff to just sit there and be ready to issue things because sometime sometimes it does require reviews from both building and Zoning only zoning only building so I mean it it takes time I understand the especially cuz I know you guys need the right scale everything in order to I mean you have to imagine I'm not on your property so if I'm a bird flying over I can throw my engineer scale on there or my architect scale and measure it off you guys are in sight so I mean it it covers both the homeowner and us that there's an accurate representation what's there yeah I think for projects though that wouldn't necessarily need that there could be a way of filtering you know this is something that doesn't require zoning and then that could sort of save you the time of having to review it right right I think the permit application too if if I may I mean we're talking about the conditional use but in my opinion legally what we'll really help staff is if we beep up beef up all of our application requirements because if you say this is what I need and although we say it now and we don't get it all the time but if you modify those to the point where the first time someone submits staff has everything that they need to Garner approval all of a sudden you're cutting a permit time in half because I can guarantee you that 85% of these they're reviewing and saying this isn't here this isn't here then it takes the property owner two weeks to submit it back then they're already moving on to other permits and it just all of a sudden creates this three-month process where had you supplied everything that staff needed at the beginning it could have been over and done within seven days so do we um have anything in place that if somebody does because I think there was something in here but I can't remember exactly what it was so if somebody is submitting a permit doesn't have everything that it needs do we charge them a second time I mean I hate to say it but you know there's there's encouragement to make sure everything's done right up front if you're going to you know financially feel it um a second time around um I'd like to comment it because my re I if people will look at at the website and the application process it is absolutely laid out exactly what they need when when you walk in and give it to them and unfortunately you're and I want to say one thing your staff is great you and your staff do Monumental work and there's no way possible that any of this reflects on you on your your work ethics or anything like that you you can only do so much and there's always room for improvement I'm not saying that we're perfect by any means no um but I appreciate that but if there's some way that that with the number of things that are coming in you know if there's if if somebody submits an entire package and it's complete and it's for offense the only way anybody's going to know that it's not there is when you go I mean if you screw it up and you put it on somebody else's when you go out and do your inspection and there's going go I'm sorry but you put it on Billy Bob's property and you can't do that so um it does happen there there is if the per expires yeah then you have to there there's a reinstate that's the only situation in which I see but I feel like there needs to be something I mean there's got to be some type of motivation um because there's nothing that takes anybody anytime more than having to go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth I mean it regardless of what kind of business you're in um or what you do for a living it's that back and forth that just drains time drains energy just drains you know things getting accomplished so that's that's really kind of why I'm asking that question I mean if it if there was motivation for people to make sure that everything that got turned in turned in right um you know might might mean that there's better application packages getting submitted and not wasting your time there could be a p or permit application building permit and even maybe a zoning portion of it you know that says are you doing this okay you need isrs you need this many surveys I think that could all be beneficial working with these third party um building plan reviewers I've noticed that there can be different expectations as far as what product approvals look like and things like that and I think it could be more efficient if the application requested that very explicitly and just made the people putting to together do more work at the beginning yeah I mean the more information we get is always Ben official right so we don't want to be chasing people down to be like well how long is this section of fence and how high but you didn't label it or it doesn't match the building permit application and there are things that are that simple that they just don't match up and then you get the why well I have to make sure you're doing in accordance with the code and we got to know like if I go out there and I throw a tape down if it's 20 feet a 4 foot high fencing it should be 20 feet yeah so yeah I mean it it is a lot we do look at Google Images we make sure the survey you know from the zoning standpoint is accurate it represents everything that is currently on the site it may not reflect your spa or your pool that you put in and it's like well then you can't calculate your ISR so I think that's first and foremost not even getting into the building side because that's a whole other animal that it's beyond my expertise that's why we have that um our building official which he's done phenomenal just trying to plug through and get through things but yes there's always room for improvement and we'll take a a deep look but right now we've been kind of we loaded at the same time so question is um does anybody when I say anybody I'm talking about like other municipalities or cities or whatever does anybody have any type of online permitting because you know I mean I'm sure we've all done those things where you're filling out some kind of application or something and you can't move from this step until you provide this and so I was just kind of curious if there's anything like that out there um that you know we could utilize in order to help to you know make that happen I mean again just trying to think of different ways in order to get you guys what you need right well there has been with over the past year we looked at different permitting um software programs uh we have kind of stuck with what we had we're looking at different tiers if there's different modules that would be beneficial for us um that if you didn't Supply this and we do have an online portal where you upload things and you can create permits and everything else so we do have that but I think you're talking about the trigger points if you don't Supply your survey in this file or if you don't give product then you can't proceed exactly that's I'm talking about and and that does exist I don't know if it exists with the module that we currently have or the program yeah and I could see the frustration on that side too it's then I can't I can't give you anything that you want so I think it could go both ways yeah any other comments thank you very much sure no problem Brandon next uh last item this is pretty straightforward I actually don't have much to say about it it's the uh boat launch or boat ramp application um this is again the city is looking to register commercial um users of the boat ramps to um make sure that you know that their track safety issues are accounted for and also to collect a fee associated with the processing of this information we looked at other municipalities there's there's a lot of variants in how much they charge some charge a 100 one charges a th I think Cape Coral's in the Thousand range um but uh we we think that 100 for residential and 250 for commercial is about the the average or the the median at least 250 for non-resident for 250 for non-resident I'm sorry um is uh about about the media for the other um municipalities we looked at we just wanted to get the board's input on that so 100 and then 250 and then is commercial a separate one from that no it's all commercial activity on the boat ramp would have to get the right of way authorization or the white of wave permit we talked about this last month we didn't have a fee associated with it so we researched other communities other counties that have that do charge and do a similar process and we found for Resident resident living in the city or their businesses in the city and nonresident um permits and then they would be done annually as well as including um Insurance listing the city is additionally insured so that's we talked about it a little bit last month but we want to start moving forward with um permitting these it was approved by commission back in December but we first had to figure out the process we did that through the right of way um that the fee Associated will go to a fee change to appendix a which we can also look at the same time the fees we've talked about today like large resort and that kind of thing because once we take the fee ordinance appendix to the commission all fee changes should be done at the same time to make it easier is is this per instance per permit per year per year oh okay okay so one contractor could use the boat ramp throughout the year okay are are these I I assume that the discussions we're having today about about Staffing and all stuff comes under our purview at least for discussions that that we're talking about I mean because I Staffing well I know we can't I mean recommending we don't hire people that that's a city manager's position but you know how our citizens are serviced by our various departments today we're talking about Community Development planning and you know building is that something that we should be discussing or is that part of our I don't think it's a it's I mean it's all related to permitting right right and and part of what we're asking you to discuss today was not only the cup application but was also permitting in general and fees so I think it's okay um now are we going to make the recommendation for you I think it's ultimately going to be the city commission discussing it during the budget on on how they allocate certain funds um so I don't know how to get it from this dis to where it needs to go but can you discuss it yeah absolutely can we can we not send up a recommendation I'm not saying we should do that today because we've been talking kind of at a thousand feet today we we're not talking about I mean should we have like a a workshop and and talk about this because I think this is incredibly important for our city uh for Staffing to be able to keep Staffing because if you if you're overloaded for an extended period of time people find other jobs you know they they just move on and and so I think it's important that that these discussions be held at at this level and then passed on to the commission for their actions so it's kind of three-fold I guess um next on the 28th we have a workshop where we're going to be talking about a compensation study that we've done on pay for our employees so um part of what goes into some of that and recommendations are are we able to recruit are we able to ret retain what are we compared to other markets so if we can't fill a senior planner that has been open for 6 months exactly why you know are the candidates out there we not paying enough um so we're we have to open senior planner positions currently that we haven't been able to fill we haven't been able to fill our building inspectors our building officials um positions I know and a year I Mark left in December so um so we are finding other ways to address it I mean even going through the last couple months we've had to hire um planning Consultants to do some of our reviews as a you know a second eye to some of the stuff Brandon's doing um so we'll get into so pay is going to be one portion of that right and then the recruitment we've already talked to the firm that recruited for our city manager and trying to single out a couple positions that were really having difficulty filling to see if we can do the recruitment on a highend um outside of you know our HR and regular methods to see if they can um Identify some of those those people out there and can we bring them on so um so it's it's difficult to answer we're going to be talking about some of that through the budget process but it's we could have we currently have five building positions that are not filled exactly and we're using the money that we have budgeted for those positions to do it contractually is that ideal no um we're looking at possibly um like other smaller cities do as well old Safety Harbor Belair Beach Belair Bluffs they have the panel's county doing a lot of their building permits and that's all done online um so we are going to have discussions with pelis County so as we're going into the budget these are all things that we need to talk through with the commission um and it's all going to impact our budget if we decide to give employees a pay increase what's that dollar amount look like and where does that affect the other part of the budget when you're trying to balance it um so it's going to be a tough couple months I think as we go through the budget um and those are the decisions that we're going to have to get direction on and then budget accordingly so are we going to put it in salaries and wages or are we going to put it in contractual are we going to what go to the county and what does that dollar amount look like um and some of these other positions do we invest in doing a recruiter and paying them to help us attract Talent so so okay there's a lot wrapped up in that Tom and I don't think I answered your question but these are all things that we talk about all a lot well it is I just had a chance to look at the code it is outside your peer viiew this discussion outside our perview correct okay respectfully then we need to move on we don't mind discussing and updating but um I well that's why I wanted to bring that up I I don't want to um I would just encourage you to talk to your commission about your concerns as we talk about the we get into the budget yeah okay all right there anything else so on this Marine contractor's topic what what problem are we trying to solve is it the boat ramp is it just the fact that we're not charging to use it is well it was I mean it's been an ongoing conversation we adopted an ordinance to to limit the times of use it's the D's R1 they were keeping up Neighbors people were there at 2: and 3 in the morning um we know that there's businesses operating out there and the only way to control it is to require a permit process in which they're signing off on hours of operation findes if they use it outside those operation and then we have a list of vendors and contractors and businesses that are actually operating a business legally in the city so it's a way to control it okay yep is there a plan in this to enforce that usage security camera or anything like that at the I don't know about a security camera I do know though that the beauty of of amending the code which we already did is we can take them to code enforcement so then the fines can really we can actually pursue and and um enforce it that way but I I don't know if there's plans on a security camera it does help us with the enforcement with them signing off on the permit um and to get that annually we're looking at doing something very similar to this on the beach when we get through the beach ordinance um to business that are operating on our beaches the yoga classes the uh photography the um beach weddings the drum circles um there's so much that's happening on our beaches that we don't have any control over do we want to and we will be getting into this with um some workshops coming up um with Beach stewardship and the commission but do we say hey we do we do want yoga on the beach um they'll get an annual permit similar like I will do an instructor for a community center or our Park you know we look at the beach as one of our large Parks um but who are these people that are doing it and and and to make sure they have the insurance and the same thing we do for our parks and um events that happen in our city streets so um and do we say yes we would love to have yoga on our beaches but let's limit it to only app approving for annually that can have classes on the beach or um photography is great but we only want to take five vendors total or you know that's that's yet conversations to be had but we're trying to do a very similar thing with um activities on the beach commercial activity on the beach that the boat that the boat ramp the two were side inside conversations I think my concern with this item specifically is there are dramatically different types of businesses that use those boat ramps uh you know someone re rebuilding docks and dropping pilings in once a month is a lot different than someone who monopolizes the ramp every morning for an hour to drop 20 kayaks in for their tour around St Pete Beach exploratory uh Adventure so I you know I would prefer to see some type of model of tiered permit permitted usage where someone who's truly running a business off of that boat ramp is paying a different fee than someone who just needs to drop a truckload of pilings into the water so some some counties and it's usually at the lower end of the cities that I looked at but cities and counties they charge per vessel would you look at want to look at something like that I think that's more fair uh you know if someone's running a business off of that boat ramp at a specific time of day every day the residents are going to be inconvenienced by that usage on a frequent basis I I mean I don't know that that's occurring I can imagine it might be but um rbtr is set up similar to that per vessel so like our um um um marinas pay per boat slip I think yeah so we actually when the btrs are are done even our water sports on the beach we actually count to make sure what they submitted in their BTR is what is actually they're operating yeah that seems more fair to me sure thank with that if if I may I just think that we're going to have to really be thoughtful of of the permit fee though because if you're running a kayak for $20 a day but the business is having to spend $100 just to put the kayak on the water you're eventually not going to have a kayak business anymore yeah well we're talking $250 a year maybe there's some slightly increased amount but yeah and I will say the the issues that we had that I dealt with legally were actually not with the Marine contract actors but rather with the mom and pop kayak shops um it was actually the reverse cuz they don't go out at two in the morning or 12: at night or 10 at night right they're they're day workers for the most part and and would your if they don't actually put the kayaks into the water like they they rent a kayak and they drop it off at your hotel but the people are going to take the kayak into the water the renters some of them don't deliver it to the sand we're just focused on the boat ramp oh just boat ramp just boat ramp okay yeah good the beach ordinance will be different hopefully that'll address what happens on the beach side enforcement is the most yeah I mean it's the yeah it's the hardest part of this all you know like what color sneakers can you wear on the beach you know that's you know how to how how do you enforce this stuff anyways anything else so I think we what we heard was a maybe a some kind of tier system based on the level of service being provided um are you guys okay and consensus wise with the amount so I have a question so like if somebody's going and just launching kayak say a resident or whatever is launching a kayak out of um what's the park at the end of I'm Sorry by the baseball field um not Egan no the other one mny M um yeah mckenny that's that's one at the very end M okay so as that like there's a little launch thing there so you're saying commercial use of the boat ramp oh so just yep just commercial so okay so residents if if they're just going and doing it for fun and they have their own kayaks yeah these are people making money off of whatever they're using Bo ramp for and that difference would be based on whether the commercial operators a resident of the city or not correct although cities do it both ways they charge residents too and non-residents it's commercial non-commercial okay I think frequency abusage is really important to the pricing structure okay thank you thanks Brandon well let's see I guess that takes us to does anybody have any other comments or discussion items or anything want to talk about all right and uh this time I'll adjourn the meeting uh for today for May 20th thank you e