##VIDEO ID:awjsZAUdd2g## e e e e e e e e committee meeting and today is August 21st and it's 9 a.m. and would you please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I Ali to the flag the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you and could we have a roll call please we can I'm hoping that the meeting has started on the live feed here because I'm just getting some kind of clocking here so hopefully it will pick up in a moment uh member Panic here member kurman here member Welch here member Stevens here chair rothenburger here we have a quorum thank you Jenny first thing we have this morning is a presentation from Nancy Stevens and a little bit of quick background she's lived here for almost four years she's been very very active in volunteering she works with the dun Savers lorda Native Plant Society Beach ambassadors SE Turtle trackers she studied biology botany and most recently specifically what she's talking about today she's certified as an advanced plant identification person and she is today going to talk about the dun saers efforts in St Pete Beach it's all yours great thank you good morning um uh okay so as Dan mentioned um I'm Nancy Stevens and um I'm here today as part of the dun savers of St Pete Beach and the Donar Property Owners um volunteer groups um we are groups of volunteers that meet weekly and we take actions to keep the dunes of our Island healthy and happy okay um so the dun Savers um started um as an idea at Treasure Island in 2023 and then the St Pete Beach dun Savers was a copied effort um by and started as a group by Deb rothenberger for our Island St Pete Beach in January of 2024 and then I second sort of made a second franchise um with the DCP D SA starting in May again just a copy um what we do is we go out and we identify and remove invasive and non-native plants by hand um to make space for um the native Dune friendly plants to grow and Thrive um Deb um our leader is a Master Gardener and Deb and I have both taken Advanced plant identification classes just this past April um that is through the University of Florida ifas um extension um to these um work days we bring our own tools and supplies and volunteers but we work with the city of St Pete Beach um to work upon um to work within agreed upon um locations um for permitting and parking passes um but really very importantly um they bring the Todds um that they deliver which are trash cans but they're clean um and they um we load those up and they remove that um and remove the debris for us we work for about an hour at a time on Fridays and Tuesdays because it gets hot all right so I'm GNA try to wow you with some numbers um so year to date so just starting in January we have um we have more than 670 volunteer hours and and that is just out in the dunes um cleaning up the trash the the the plants um we have worked for 30 Friday mornings and 12 Tuesday Mornings we have removed an estimated 220 cubic yards of invasive plants trash and debris um we where we have worked so we have made one pass through um passig Beach um before the Dune restoration started but good news is we kind of kind of made one pass through there um and then we have also worked we kind of started at up on beach um and started working and we've been there for I don't know probably eight or so weeks and we have just made it just from that one walk over just to about the Sunset Grill um and then um and then sort of in Mid Island um we're working at it's um because it's a private property it's the um Dante property owners and we have made a little progress um working at about from like cabillo and um and we just started working at the entrance by the Don CeSar Property Owners by the Santan Art Center so real quick I just wanted to review well you know what what is um there's a lot of different words but what's an invasive plant non-native plant and aggressive plant so invasive plants um are like non-native species in introduced generally by human activity so whether that was um brought here sold at a nursery um or or on you know mechanical equipment or however you know on on car tires things like that um but invas invasive plants um outgrow and replace other in um Florida's native Dune plants um and then when the plants aren't there the associated Wildlife that um and that goes along with them they can um alter the natural processes um that happen um I put fire and water flow you know Inland but more for for us today talking about the stability of our shorelines um non-native is other words used for that are also exotic or alien or introduced um and those are all synonyms for non-native um and basically a non-native which might be native to the United States it doesn't have a natural range that includes Florida or what I would like to do be is specifically for our Dunes of the West Coast of Florida um their presence can often have negative impacts and endem and on endemic ecosystems and then aggressive plants are species so again that could be a native plant native to South Carolina or somewhere else um that is still the United States but they um aggressive plants um again usually because of human disturbance but they spread rapidly and can outcompete um the other plant species um aggressive plants again can be native or non-native um and sometimes they're n they're aggressive in certain situations but not others here's just a look at some of the things that we're seeing out there and these are our are the biggies that we see um so maybe you are familiar with them but the African fountain grass the um we have um mother of millions some people call them Christmas bells but it's mother of millions um and the asparagus fern um these are um these are all category one species and troublemakers that are changing up our native plant communities um there's also category two species like a mother-in-law's tongue um and basically they're on the watch list um to see if they'll start to affect the native plants and they may be removed from the category one and or two and put into a category one and that is reexamined every two years here's um the last three of it we've got the Brazilian pepper mother-in-law's tongue carrotwood um Nursery sales of these weeds are prohibited and these plants should not only be not planted but they also should be removed so why should we um have Florida native Dune plants well the native Dune plants of West Florida are those which evolved locally over thousands of years to the hostile environment that occurs within our beach dun region as a result of natural processes they're adapted to the high summer temperatures drought conditions low nutrient levels unstable Sands and saltwater intrusions and then remember the insects birds and animals adapted along too with them um our Coastal um native plants stabilize the dunes which in turn provide the habitat for Coastal and migratory birds and nesting areas for sea turtles um the first picture there is the gulf frary butterfly it lives his entire life cycle on a Florida native passion flower vine there are two we have some growing in the dunes um so for instance you could purchase a nonnative Florida Passion vine this butterfly native to our area might choose to eat it and lay its eggs there what happens or not they won't eat it they will lay their eggs there when the the cats which are the baby caterpillars emerge they then do not have a food source and they're stranded they're stuck on this not you know sustainable Um passion flower vine okay so here's the good stuff the six most common native Dune plants and there are many more that we see out there is of course our our Sea Oats which I um call our workhorses of the Doom um we have our dunstone flower Beach Morning Glory railroad vine they look very similar um these common Coastal plants and many more keep our Island seaw wall of the West up and running um also we see out there Beach tea um our Sab Palm that's our um state tree um sea grapes and again the Dune systems act as a buffer between the high energy of the ocean and the land and dunes provide a barrier of the for the high tides and Storm surges and protects our land behind the dunes from erosion okay so here's some images of us uh all out there working in the dunes um I like to call it delicate demo as we try to um be careful of the the good stuff and just take out what needs to be taken out um but a reminder as the beach is our primary contributor of the econom economy and stability of our Island um The Dun Savers and the city we work together to restore preserve and bring education and awareness to Citizens and visitors on our seaw wall of the West so um we have an exciting opportunity which is our um sea o planting um this is um this coming Saturday in case anyone hasn't heard um 7:30 10:30 you don't have to come for the whole time you can come out just to come see what we're doing um plant a few seots water a few seots um we can point out you know we can teach um we are um we are we're working we also have included um keep pelis beautiful the St be Beach um ambassadors uh Florida Native Plant Society the passag grill Women's Club um the Don are Property Owners um are all other contributors to the advertising of this event and we also invite you the beach stewardship committee to come on out and see what we're doing to really get out there um other things you can do um to help save our Dunes is um if you want to come out and volunteer but then also um if you'd like um to learn more um we have a little link on the the city website um that'll take you to iako or um and then to Deb or myself um and then you can learn um you can look at the plant directory um from the UF ifas extension and um for invasive and aquatic plants you can join the Florida Native Plant Society or our cleanups um we can also remove our invasive plants um you can from your own yard condos businesses and City properties um and as a group we can add money for removal to the city budget I think especially for the the the trees um we can preserve by um do not buy plant or allow the use of invasive invasives because these plants do not know boundaries just because we said this is my yard doesn't mean that it will jump um we can make a list of forbidden plants in the city ordinances and um we can enforce the 50% natives when um when people put in landscaping plans um the new plan is supposed to include 50% natives um education to spread the word just knowing that there is even something for Native you know in Dune plants to not um and then um mostly I'd also just like to say thank you and let you know that we are encouraged every week by the progress we're making um and again if you're interested in making a difference for our beach come join the dun saers team um for a single event or for weekly cleanups as much as you like um no experience is necessary and you can learn about um the native Dune plants and how we can help preserve our Coastal Community um so again thank you thank you thank you Nancy very much all right questions oh sure um I had trouble in I I really like your your your the presentation and the information and and the work you guys are doing um I had trouble CU I took a picture of what was the fountain grass okay and then I took a picture of the seots and I'm not very good at this they look very similar to me how do you discern the difference so um one of the easiest ways is um the um flower of it so um an African um the African grass has a like a um a a puffy thing like the a SE seot is a seot has a flat it's it's very flat and it looks like oats okay like I don't know if you know like it looks like oats but it's very it's very flat so like it you know like this where the um the the African one the a it it's it looks like a caterpillar it's it's it's round and has a little Point puffy puffy it's puff and that's the bad one that's a good one that's the bad one right but we have like for instance that is it grows to the exact same height um and like basically likes all the same things as we have a native um mly grass it's pink it's beautiful and you know but it it's like something you can literally like one for one you can just you can literally just pull out the African stuff and just pop in a pink mule grass which you know is doing all these great things and the a the um the the the um the non-native just like it's not really sustaining any animals or anything but and and sure it's pretty but it needs to be pretty like in Africa that's yeah okay thank [Laughter] you great than yes Nancy thank you so much for what you're doing and everybody else is doing it uh it's interesting that we can be 50% Cor up huh we can have 50% non-native invasive plants but at the same time they're listed as outlawed so there kind of a contradiction there but be that as it may I I I think you're referring to the city or the city ordinance 50 50% ordinance we could we could be 50% corrupt John I think what they're saying is when you add new Landscaping we're we're not asking people to go out and rip out all their land aping oh I know oh you do know I'm just making an observation well and the other interesting thing just going back is that when you look at like the tax maps the the uh penel County taxes the property owners to the outside of the dunes or to the outside of the to the water side of the marsh okay they don't tax them for the dry sand but they generally tax them for the morish land so when you get into property issues obviously you know dealing with or the county beach or these areas this is you know clearly city-owned property no conflict but you mentioned Donar and then you know you know like any wall the wall is only as effective as you know covering the entire width of it what's the approach going to be when you get involved with private property owners and we'll and again we'll need to um take that you know we as much as we are we have put a lot of hours in like we are just chugging along so like it you know we were just out cleaning on Friday and um you know or Tuesday yesterday and you know part of it is is we say to ourselves like okay don't look up because sometimes it can be so daunting um so yes so right now I have you know we're able to work there um and we need to come up with a um sort of a system or a program or something to approach um other homeowners and and see if they would like for us to help help you know you know if they say no then it's no you know but um we we'll you know but we we we don't we don't have that kind of um Manpower yet we haven't got we haven't gotten that far okay very good but it's in but it's in the it's in the bank as far as I'm thinking about it yes yes thank you okay thank you Nancy very much I'd like the point out in the presentation there were some pictures and our uh chairman was in many of those pictures and is out there almost every Friday working hard to save our Doom so thank you Mr chairman you're very welcome it's been a a good experience it's a I'd suggest that you all try it come out one day it's good our next item is to approve today's agenda so do I have a motion I've got a couple changes that I'd like to or additions I'd like to make to it um first off uh I have an item to discuss the method for adding things to the agenda because there seemed to have been some discussion and confusion when I tried to add items to this agenda so the i' I'd like to add an item uh called uh the process of uh adding items to the agenda uh next give me one second I I close it because I uh here we are um next um we we've discussed before the uh Communications to beach stewards and I like to add an item about Communications to beach stewards because there's been discussions at City commission meetings about borish and louish behavior on the beach there's been incidents on there's been various incidents uh a trade winds in Dolphin uh Beach were items reported and um so you know making sure that the beach stewards are kept in the loop to at least be notified is something we've been talking about so the communications to the beach stewards should be an item um the third item would be the Readington decision so this happened in the last uh uh about 8 days ago uh Readington had uh a lawsuit about customary use have been going on for a long time and that's now been settled and um I let Matt know that Mr McConnell our attorney that you know I was going to try to add that to the agenda so we could just get a legal perspective on what the meaning of that might mean for St Pete Beach uh as the third item uh and then the fourth one is business tax receipts btrs uh all btrs are expire September 30th each year um and the beach stewards are responsible for providing input on policy regarding you know public beach and so forth to the city commission and there's been a lot of discussion our ordinance discussions about where chairs should be uh on the beach and these btrs cover giving commercial properties or franchises the the rights and saying hey you can have a business where you're renting out shares or putting out chairs so it seems important that prior to September 30th uh there' be some sort of discussion about um what the policy should be because one of the complaints for instance was that you know chairs were going all the way to the beach but they're not quote Cabana chairs they're just rental chairs so the question of business tax receipts are just we have a deadline looming that I didn't realize was September 30th uh so the fourth item would be uh discussing just again the policy for for chairs or anything else related to btrs um that would be my four additions thank you discussion I I I personally feel like the the tax receipt thing would be something we do at a totally different meeting so I think that's going to take a long time I don't believe we could solve it I just wanted to get it out there ptrs are Florida statute that is controlled by that the renewals are already out so I think we're there's not much we can do well but i' I've seen them and I mean I've seen at least maybe I'm maybe I'm confusing the term the tax table regarding FL the btrs are Florida statute I've seen maps that show you know where they can put things that's a permit that's not a BTR okay and that's not two separate things no okay so then we we could we'll scratch that we can scratch that that for now Mr Dickman is this a is this a good day to discuss the Readington Beach happy to discuss okay I've all 55 Pages all right good I would I would say that we go with those three can I can I just asked since we just shelv that when do those permits happen you said that it's a permit are those permits coinciding with the btrs no so those just happen random times when they are um given the permit initially and then annually renewed okay so they get it in October 15th it would be October 15th regardless correct thank you okay Jenny so we have three additional items and do you have them I okay and we will do those at the end of our regular okay good all right we just need a motion to approve it with those changes I I make a motion to to approve the um uh changed or appended agenda second Vice chair kurman yes member Welch yes member Stevens yes member Panic yes chair rothenberger yes motion carries thank you now we have audience comments for anything that's on non-agenda item does anybody have anything they'd like to talk to us about okay just have Turtles to talk about as far as the beach nourishment goes and stuff like that okay my name is Joel W Lansky and everybody knows me as Turtle Joe um and uh I I work with sea turtle trackers and we do all the sea turtle nest monitoring on St Pete Beach as well as some other places like Shell Key and just quickly going over some of the numbers from this year is we actually had a pretty terrible year uh and we had 27 nests on St Pete Beach this year uh as opposed to last year we had 70 on St Pete Beach um and you do get different Turtles nesting every year so last year's Turtles are not the same ones that are nesting this year um why the numbers are so low it has a lot to do with uh there's no beach for them to to Nest on to be you know the North End of up on beach there's because of the renourishment what they did this time you know they left the beach and if you going go out there north of the Dans are and look North you'll see there's no beach profile whatsoever I mean it's just dead flat the water can come up 6 in it'll come up all the way up to the dunes um at high tide and uh unfortunately that's not good for the Turtles um at all so any nests they lay that are not in the dunes are going to get washed away we know that going in because there's no beach profile what they're doing now is they're leaving it flat and then building a big mountain you know for the Dune that is really it it doesn't allow the turtles to go up into the Dunes cuz it's so high up um so they don't go up and Nest up in there and um I don't know why this particular renourishment is different than all the other ones that we've had um and no matter where they put the sand it's going to wash out eventually uh they haven't even finished anything on the renourishment and it's already all washed away from the from Debbie um so the storm impact on our uh Nest was that we lost four Nest completely we lost eight more um that were washed out um we have 10 nests remaining but uh probably only two of those are going to hatch because the other eight got washed over and was washed over for hours um so we do need the uh the beach renourishment but I mean I just don't know whose idea it was to to make mountains instead of like sand dunes uh like that look like a natural sand dune where a turtle can actually go up and nest in the dunes cuz that's where they're safest uh so uh the the only well totally La well last year we had 70 this like I said and my big problem is honest to God is Code Enforcement if any of you have been on the beach from Don CeSar South it's nothing but lawn chairs people with the uh what do they call those the chairs the the plastic ones they you all know what they've been they've been around forever um but there's just a wall of them there and they're actually in the dunes over there um and nobody for years I've been begging to get the city to remove them and then let the people come and take them because I think what's happening is that you got all the uh short timers um so the actual owners are not there and the people rent short time they don't know that those chairs are not supposed to be there so they just go on and on year after year and we have obstructions with the sea turtles all the time um Joe are you talking south of the Dawn the private properties south of the Dawn yes all those uh addon back chairs I guess they call them um so the dunes are very important for the sea turtles to nest in they're very important for the dunes the eggshells from the sea turtles um when they hatch uh they stay in the ground and disintegrate and they make nutrients for the plants that are actually in in the dunes because there's no nutrients really in beach sand so they have to get their nutrients where they can and sea turtle eggs are actually a big source of that um a lot bigger than people think um so that's how sea turtles can affect land in the water they are uh their main job is to keep the populations down on welks con things like that crabs um all stuff that would go crazy uh in the environment if there was nothing to eat them um and it's only fair because as soon as the babies hatch everything tries to eat them so it kind of goes both ways um but I really just want to emphasize the importance of the dunes and um just just I wish they had done it different I wish they hadn't made mountains instead of mole Hills out of those Dunes it's just not it's just not natural let's put it that way and I don't know if it was John Bishop he had his hand in there there with the other guy at up at up in the county and uh uh why they did that I I don't know does anybody have any questions for me I do are you all still uh working on Shell Key yes and how do the numbers there look they look absolutely horrible because of the uh there's no beach for them to Nest on was all taken out as soon as they're done renourishing St Pete Beach that'll all wash over to Shell Key and then they'll have then they'll have plenty of beach you know so it's a it's a kind of an up and down thing depending on hurricanes really you know we get whacked pretty much every year now with at least a strong tropical storm and it does a does a number on the on on the dunes I I had a couple questions sure I'm wondering who we could reach out to as a city about this profile of the sand dunes that you mentioned because it's it's not just an issue of the turtles it's also go back goes back to the first Speaker about the dunes I mean if you want to if you want a picture sounds to me like it already looks like pre- eroded that if you if you have your Beach and then you just have a wall of sand and then have a dune how could you expect that to be providing you protection yeah I would expect that you'd want to have a gradual slope the whole way you would think so and and yes it takes more sand to do that because now you have to fill that whole area into that to the height of your Mountain instead of yeah instead of a wall but otherwise yeah you know even everything's just going to make that settle down so I'm wondering if there's anyone we could it's a County project and Public Works is the direct liaison with the city that works with the county on that so I can bring that up to if you share that with them that would be good and and then you mentioned code enforcement and you were focusing on the the the wall the donor South yeah um you know I was out recently this last weekend either Donar North and I still see hotels where they have outdoor walkways and white lights and if if whoever there's a way to say screw you to to to the to the city or to the turtles it's like come on it's a light bulb just change your light bulbs I don't understand how and our ordinance says even for pre-existing conditions even for you know back when they did the ordinance 10 15 years ago whatever it was it said if you already have it you only have to change the bulbs well so they've had all these years to change the bulbs I don't understand unfortunately you get a lot of turnover with ownership like the dolphin uh Beach Resort down there is under new ownership and the old ownership had red lights everywhere they were like turtle safe I mean they were like the model for the beach and then the new owners came in and changed lights out it was the same thing with the beach comr you know they had all the boardwalk going out to the beach was all nice red lights and you know just the the whole thing and then they get new owners and they change all the lights out and it's it's a continuing battle um we'll see what the trade wins does now with their that's what yeah project I'll I'll just call it their project it shouldn't take a project to change some light bulbs um that's right it shouldn't and and then my my third question was that just tying back to the first presenter too you mentioned the value of the sea turtle shells for the nutrients which is helpful for the the the dunes yes so uh is it permissible for people to not people for some entity to be providing nutrients not not sea turtle eggs but to help the dunes maybe we should have a program not just of pulling invasives but should we be adding nutrients to the dunes if we could do that that wouldn't be the worst idea I ever heard okay nobody's ever brought that up I before made a comment on that uh because I have suggested for years that we don't sweep up the seaweed uh and let it go into the Doom because that's a wonderful nutrient and also collects sand the other thing is I hope nobody in this room thinks that Turtles and dunes are more important than tourists and development in the State of Florida I you do I may in my heart but I'm talking about the way things are practiced yes laws yeah they could use some tinkering with we'll call it that way and you guys are the beach stewardship committee so uh sort of in your hands where we go from here I I think we're building on something here because I actually for me to get to ioko since the last meeting I guess I could say it in public now because we're all together and I said something about removal of of of things and she said well you know normally we remove artificial things like plastic and things that wash up but we don't remove things like seaweed that's that's good for the beach because it helps feed the birds and other Wildlife but if we do ever get in a situation where we do have to sweep I'm wondering if they could at least make sure they sweep up to the dunes or into the dunes if that's allowed you know cuz you don't want things growing in the middle of the sand but you do want them to grow in the dunes well the dunes grow because things grow in the sand if you watch the progress of Dunes the little things stick their fingers up in the beach and the next thing you know that's another Dune that's the way they grow right well I think that goes against your your model of wanting the people the model they used in upam is the same one they've used all over the east coast of just making a round Doom what they do is slope the beach there is no beach to slope in upam and upam I mean not upam U pass they need space for tourists if they slope that straight from the Gulf up to the Dune the tourists would have no place to put their umbrellas and stuff well it's not that they would be sloping the Dune they would be sloping the beach yeah exactly what's wrong with that that's WR no there's nothing wrong with that except that there's no place for tourists to put their blankets and stuff well we're not making the dunes go all the way down to the water there's there's plenty of open beach for tourists a dune and then a gradual slope yeah uh and there's just no room at upam I'm there all the time I mean don't mean upam I mean pass a grill upam is a mess building is well was allowed to be built there yes our beach is a mess because we've allowed the building all over the place yeah so uh my theory is everybody leave the beach okay we are the most invasive creat move on yeah I think people can put their head at the high end and they'll be happy y that would be great if it was nothing but a Barrier Island again you know they're supposed to move Inland a mile a year a Barrier Island to protect uh to protect the mainland and because of human development that doesn't happen anymore um so the barrier islands are not really doing the job they're supposed to be doing um other than making insurance rates go up every time we get a storm you know people you know get hammered on their insurance if you live down near the water um so all right thank you Joe anybody else have any questions well thank you very much for listening thank you thanks Jo thanks Turtle Joe okay I do I actually have a question you might know the answer to I think I read in one of Fran's new updates that Turtle they were doing an audit of turtle lighting and the results were going to come in at some point I might have misread that you might have help can help with that cuz code enforcement indicated to me we were supposed to get something from the county hopefully Monday so we left it on the agenda in hopes that we got it we have not got it do you know the lighting survey the audit Oh I thought it was you have to talk to Teresa about that so yeah I thought the city was doing it it we weren't it wasn't the city doing it was somebody the actual audit is done by through the county that they work with the sea turtle trackers but our code enforcement does their own enforcement but the audit itself is done by the county they they're waiting on the lighting survey be today have the latest and greatest yeah we just haven't don't have it for okay the meeting today when that's available can that be sent out sure thank you all right our next item is the approval of the minutes May 15 and the special meeting we had on June 18th get a motion to approve those I'll make the motion to approve you okay second all right member Welch yes member Stevens yes member Panic yes Vice chair kersman yes chair rothenberger yes motion carries all right our next message let's see our next item is election of committee officers but before we do that I would like to recognize Joe mahalan our newest Commissioners for District 4 Joe thank you very much for coming definely Mary I think um you celebrated a 10-year um anniversary with the city our City attorney so I just want to say thank you for 10 years of service and appreciate appreciate everything you've done my okay we need a motion to appoint the committee chair for 2024 and 2025 to appoint or nominate it says to a point to a point yeah yeah make that motion are AR to there's there's two new um City commissioners have they have they already made their intent clear that they're leaving everybody alone I know in my case they are they are and I think in District for they are as well okay then we're ready that all all right um excuse me who made a motion to do what I didn't hear it we we haven't actually done that we have a motion to app point and then it's fill in the blank there that's ready to yep so we're looking for somebody for the chair the question are you willing and interested in serving as chairman till next spring oh I would definitely be up for that if you guys are not tired of me sure so I'll make I'll make a motion to renominate um our chair to continue on in his position I'll second that member Stevens yes member panck yes yes Vice chair kurman yes member Welch chair rothenberger yes motion carries thank you okay okay and now we need a motion to appoint the vice chair 2024 2025 so volunteers no one else wants it I'm happy to do it I I think that would be great John's been out in the The Trenches so s I'll second that I mean I will nominate you okay I'm sorry anybody else want to that's one I I'll second that sure uh member Panic yeah member kersman yes member Welch yes member Stevens yes chair rothenberger yes motion carries okay thank you both thank you all right now our items of discussion going to start right out with the beach lighting ordinance um as far as the update on that I believe your office that's working towards that looking at the county yeah to my knowledge it has hasn't we have not uh gotten very far on this um I'm not quite sure why um I'll have to look into it I think at the last work or the last special meeting we had it was one of that and and I know you guys are busy you took the to-do to go out and take a look at that and report back and again know you're busy but um perhaps perhaps At a next meeting we can work together on that okay Andrew is there also a certain evaluation you have to go through after coming up with an ordinance to see if it affects people financially absolutely um Florida law recently changed uh within the last year or two too that when you adopt an ordinance uh before you adopted the ordinance or at the time that it's presented to be adopted you have to do uh an economic impact statement um which essentially describes what the economic impact will be of the ordinance that that impact though is only compared to your current ordinance so if you already require people to be changing their light bulbs for instance you'd only be looking at the impact Beyond what's currently required correct counselor if you know that better than me no no no you you were stating that no I was saying would you only have to show the difference between the current and what you're changing or is it some other uh metric the the metric is stated in the in the statute on how to put it together um it's a fairly straightforward one um depending on the facts of where it is I mean being on the beach there's obviously public and private property so what I'm asking is when you do an economic impact is it is it the impact of what you're requiring or is it the impact of what you're requiring requiring relative to what you already used to require so you're only making a small change and you only talk about the impact of the small change or do you talk about the impact of what your what your new ordinance will be even though it's been you know practically all of it's been in place prior the the new the ordinance all right so basically you just have to do Follow The Matrix that's set out in the statute and if this ordinance is superseding the new ordinance or the existing ordinance you have to establish what the new ordinance impact will be the scope of it would be whatever the scope of that is relative to zero then not relative to what your current ordinances are is that what you're saying that's that's my understanding okay thank you all right can um and Jennifer could you follow up with Fran and maybe this goes for be as well um as we're looking at these things and you might know the answer who from staff and I I exclude Council would be the owner of the beach light ordinance as it originally was in the beach ordinance and then we decided to do like that and then I'm gonna have the same question the beach or I know Matthew has been pushing that but so I'm gonna ask who's the owner of that because it's multi-disciplined across the way the structure but I just think getting things through an organization having a point person on staff could help both of these and you don't have to answer maybe it's a conversation with Fran is who who would own either one of those at the end of the day it's going to be planning department um but I have been been working with Matthew on the beach ordinance for three years so I would be the point person on that we did break off the lighting aspect to it um and we are trying to move forward with bringing a lot of this to commission as soon as we can okay I just with a lack of ownership things don't get done so it's just it's me by default that doesn't give me a lot of confidence perhaps you know just discuss it with Frank okay we move on to the beach ordinance update uh the only update I have on that is we worked with our GIS um V uh contractor that we have um that has began the process of developing a map for all of our Cabana service areas and what setbacks would look like at 75 at 50 at so we can develop that business impact um for each of those properties and so that's where we're at with that we were able to accomplish that and I think that's what we heard from the last um meeting and we were able to get a draft of that um and then um next up is to sit down with with Fran to go over that and develop the business impact and hopefully our goal is to get something to the commission sometime in October can I ask a little about that um when you talk about 75 ft 50 ft and 30 ft is that to the Cabana service which is where they sell alcohol or is that to the chair service where they rent and provide chairs Cabana service so we permit the Cabana service we do not permit the chair service that's not in the Cabana service that's just done with the BTR that's part of their operations it's not something we have to permit so they could put shars anywhere all the way to the water line no we have setbacks that are in for our our code what was asked for the beach ordinance was specifically regarding our Cabana service area which code is it that dictates where the chairs go that are not Cabanas service is that the beach ordinance code or some other code it's all one code it's a code of ordinance so I think there was a discussion of bringing do do they are they allowed to keep them out all night or do they have to bring them in I don't know if for the non-alcohol one there's also been discussion I'm sorry it just there's also been discussion during the day uh because there's been complaints about chairs being covering the beat so much that people then from even those Resorts end up going to the neighboring private properties and so forth and it's been no it's been I've been on you know in these workshops for a couple years now and this has been big discussion it was point of confusion because sometimes people would say cabanis and they thought they were talking about all the chairs only to find out later that they meant alcohol only cavanas so that's why I'm look looking to say what what is what is our rule about regular chairs then or should shouldn't that be should or should that not be part of this question of 75 feet 50 feet and 30 feet it's only about whether you could buy a drink at the chair but otherwise you can have the chairs everywhere I mean I I didn't I don't know that that was what was meant depending on the property and the property survey and the property ownership I think dictates it's not one and the same so we the city permit alcohol service areas and and the BTR is what allows them to put out the non-alcohol chairs BTR is not a permit a BTR is a business tax receipt but that's where they get the authority to put out their their the chairs they rent for $20 I think that allows them to do water sports I don't know that btrs include oh yes I I have a copy of the btrs and it's for the chairs too there's water sports there's chairs there's Absolut every one of them has has chairs on them I mean Jennifer's I mean you can go double check I think we should double check but that's why I brought up the BTR issue before okay well the business tax receipt shows that they have Water Sports in their area have to indicate how many jet skis um if they have um recreational things on there is what has to be indicated in there and that also incurs what their cost is but I don't know that we get involved in how many chairs they have but we do have a mean high water line we do have some certain setbacks depending on where your hotel is if it's by PR private property or not private property and then each individual Hotel owns to a certain point of the beach so you do have setbacks in these in the requirement some depending like if you are adjacent to a private property but nothing regard to how close to the water you can get I believe there is something about the water in their ordinance I can't rattle it off right now all right and let me let me talk separate a different thing about the beach ordinance and that is based on uh Mr jman's prior answer where a business impact statement has to be done relative to zero not relative to your current ordinance when you Mr kman yeah you're you're you're asking me these questions in advance do you want me to reull the statute and bring it back to you because you're you seem to be saying based on Mr Dickman's last I mean I don't have that right in front of me so well I I thought you have you ever have you done a business impack statement yet yes of course well then was it relative to the prior ordinance or was it relative to the to to nothing I mean that's the only reason I brought it up the reason please don't cross-examine me no but the reason I'm saying this you're course got me me I no but I'm asking if you want that information I can get it to you okay thank you if you want more information about the business impact statement and be fully apprised of it I'll get it to you but don't start building an argument based on do you just asking me a question on the Fly well I just thought that you just thought what you knew from having done business I think you know already no I don't I really don't know and and if it's relative to zero my suggestion would be that rather than us doing this be orinus is a total rewrite which will make the business impact statement reflect everything that we're doing in our beach ordinance that we only actually change our beach ordinance in things that are actually changing so that we don't have to open a can of worms on things that aren't changing and have to have to negotiate and show business impact for roles that already exist and that was the only reason that I was bringing that up why didn't you just say like that because I was basing it on the because if that's not correct and it's and it is based on relative because I would think it would only be based on relative but it in which case it was fine to do it the other way but if it's not based on relative then I'm changing my thought and thinking that we have to change how we do the beach ordinance and that's why I brought it up did you ask our office that question prior to today I never even thought of this until you brought it up business impact up in the way you Des earlier I was asked yeah so based on this discussion just now it made me think of something that I expressed it wasn't a predetermined question I I didn't really even think of it before because there was something that was said during this meeting that made me think of that I'm sorry if it came across in any other way apology accepted it wasn't an apology I'm just I'm just saying that I I didn't I didn't intend Mr Mr I believe Mr chair point of order point of order can we um take a step back and get refocused on the agenda please please I think we're finished with the beach ordinance update and I think we go on I have just clarification on one thing sure uh Cabanas have a line and then chairs can go in front of the Cabanas without restrictions other than the uh mean high water mark well whatever that this is where it's confused we permit you serve alcohol and that is that is a a diagram they provide and the you know 20x 40 ft and this is where it's located on the beach if they provide chairs of people that are not drinking alcohol on their property we don't permit that okay so and they don't have to abide by the line of they just can't have alcohol but they can have chairs and rent them again it depends on each property I don't think I can say for all because it they each own to a certain point of sand some only own to the mean high water line some hone to the dunes some hone own all the way to the water every property is different so I can't give you a general answer to that it's individual properties thank you okay let's move on to the next item which is a passag grill renourishment oh how that is going I put that on the the agenda I just was hoping someone could give an update where they're at how's it going what's the status as you can hear from Turtle Joe uh a lot of it was washed away they stalled a little bit the week after um the storm came in um they are I was out there yesterday back out there read nourishing they're still south of the grill um and then it's still the deadline for them to complete the project is um October November from what the county States depending on any additional storms if that would change so um the latest updates that we get again it's not um we push everything out and we attach to the county because the count it is the County's project any information that we get we push that out so I would like to say I'm the keeper of all that information but I'm I just can only share what we're given the information on and I've I've gone to the County website and it's very generic so I was just thought the city might be getting more specifics on I think um penel County John Bishop Kelly Levy who was in their Public Works to work with our public works department um if we haven't been getting any inside if there was additional conversations on that um we just are also going off in our Communications manager off the County's website okay I think there as far as Avenues I think they're about the Fourth Avenue that far yeah and I would like to give some kudos out to a couple of the gentlemen that are working for the dredging people after storm of tropical storm Debbie came by there was one of their kind of like a snow fence that had gotten up in the dunes and they didn't they said we're told not to go up in the Dune but you could see that it was causing some damage and they very very carefully like surgeons got it out of there they did a great job that was good well those Dunes are six month months old yeah y they were still being very careful they're little babies oh they are it was very interesting we used to put Snow fences to build Tunes very successfully not on the top of the Doom though in front this is an example of the BTR for uh Alden part of trade win says Cabana chair umbrella rental $20 but Mr chairman Mr chairman point of order we've kind of jumped off agenda again we need to stay on that I think we finish that and we're going to move to item D Beach rights and incidents or reports that was an item that I requested and um there was a uh question about uh there was a complaint to there was a video and it was discussed at a City Commissioner meeting regarding the trade winds kicking uh some people off the beach and then um Mr Dickman got involved and uh I heard there was a positive outcome and I think it would be worthwhile for the people of beach stewardship to understand what what transpired there and then there was a report uh at another hotel where there were chairs all the way out and I think we've already covered it um partially on on what the rights are there and then maybe any other incidents um and then Beach rights may also be covering the the Readington case but you know that it can be separate whatever you want so you want to know about various incidents that have occurred on the beach in general or well we normally do have a status report that shows a lot of other things um but I I did flag in particular this trade wins one because it seemed very significant where we had a hotel that uh evicted PE you know told some people that they had to leave the beach uh uh the mayor was actually present at the incident um it was a high visibility incident it was videoed uh it was discussed and then interestingly uh the sheriff's office then called the people back and and apologized from what I heard I don't want I don't want to get involved in in relay you involved I tell you I can tell you what I know um it was a weekend I got a call from the mayor he was upset because apparently some U members of the city who uh were at the beach um behind the trade winds and allegedly they were being told um to move down towards the water um area um I wasn't there I didn't have much more of that I quickly said fine I'll call trade wins attorney uh I called trade wins attorney uh called Wayne Saunders who was the interim city manager told him exactly what was happening um I called the mayor back and told him what I did and that's all I know I know that it I don't know why the I I also explained that yes that part of the conditional use permit for the trade WIS had to do with um providing uh an easement for the public 15 feet roughly 15 feet uh landward of the high water mark which would basically be you know the wet sand um to allow for that um so I don't know if there was some confusion about where that was or uh what happened if but I also explained that that easement is not in place until a certain time I think it's got to be the certificate of occupancy for the first phase of the project so those easements are not in place but it did seem as though um you know the trade wins was were going to honor that you know that space anyway um even though that the the easements have not been set in place yet um then mixing I hear as the sheriff has uh rescinded the uh trespass order against the individual I don't know why they did that I don't know if that's an admission of they thought they were wrong or if they were just trying to um um try to alleviate uh tone down the problem or the issue I don't have any other facts beyond that but it was on a weekend I got a call I took care of it the best I could well yeah I was hoping this is an opportunity for to be you know saying job well done because it seemed like it you got involved and there was a very positive I just didn't know I happened between credit for that I just made some phone calls I mean I really I wasn't here so I mean the mayor was there uh maybe he his involvement ought to be he he jumped on it he was there so um and I don't know why the sheriff I don't I don't know the facts I mean I know that um I have no indication that the trade wins are saying you know we're not going to honor this area it seemed to me like even though the easements weren't in place that they were they were well aware that like at some point the public was going to be given an easement um 15 ft above the the wet sand and that's where they seem to understand that's that would happen even though the easements are not in place technically they could say you know please leave until the easements are in place so and then of course that development's under appeal by the uh protect St Pete Beach folks and so you know that will stay everything so the easements won't be in place for much longer uh longer period of time not to not to dig up I mean this going back to the beach rights thing then so to generalize this I I I didn't think it was due to any confusion about Trade Winds uh buffer you know due to the easement so it's of of your your your your statement now right now is though that that really any any of these hotels could be trespassing people if they're if we're on the beach that is uh yes it's if it's private property yes um but in the in back when back because I've watched this video multiple times and I I think I've discussed it with you back when they were resending the customary use ordinance I think you had said the beach has been public it's always been public what did that mean so again we all right so you I don't mean to I don't mean to na down to one conversation let's talk about one one thing first you wanted to know about incidences that's all I know about that incidence I was glad that it got resolved um I didn't try to spend any more of the city's money on it than I needed to um I'm glad I got resolved I don't know of any other incidences I've heard you know I mean you know you always have peak times and holidays where people are you know Silver Sands was upset about um maybe July 4th things like that um but I think if you want a procedure in place where you you get reports back I think that's you know we can put that in place um but that's the only one that I personally was involved in at all thank now going to uh your question about Readington Beach decision which I think is what you're talking about because it has to do with um a Doctrine a legal Doctrine called the customary use Doctrine so that comes from let me just get this up here from a case a Florida Supreme Court case decided uh a while ago um in Daytona Beach versus uh torama it said that it allows the public to continue to use the dry sand above the mean high water line for recreational use where such use is shown to be ancient reasonable without interruption and free from dispute so that case had been on the books for quite a while in Florida um since then several um several localities counties and also uh cities adopted um customary use ordinances there's some in the Panhandle some cases that were going on in the Panhandle in Walton Beach things like that um then in uh 2018 the Florida legislature adopted a statute under 163.05 which precluded which was another one of many preemptions that happens uh in Tallahassee preempting local governments from enacting uh customary use ordinances and putting in place a judicial process for ad adting an ordinance so it didn't 100% preclude it but it established a procedure where if you wanted to adopt a customary use ordinance you would go through a machinations of public hearings and data collection and things like that to establish the ancient and historical use of the beach then you would have to present it to a circuit court judge and have it blessed and then it would go into place so um at that time in 2018 several local governments many of them I mean because it created quite a bit of confusion I if you remember that um because all of a sudden people were putting up fences and signs and things like that all over Florida on the beach you know like okay we own the beach now and uh localities were adopting ordinances very quickly because there was a enactment time I think it might have been June 1st of that year or something so everybody was trying to quickly enact an ordinance and um Readington Beach is actually St P Beach enacted one uh very quickly very basic ordinance uh Readington Beach as well adopted one um Readington Beach ultimately was sued uh as well as St Pete Beach was sued by the Silver Sands and uh the city commission with our ultimately decided to resend that ordinance um rather than have a protracted legal argument or legal case Readington beach however since 2018 and 2019 has been litigating uh um this ordinance to keep their ordinance in place since that time uh there were cases filed in State Court there were cases filed in a case filed in federal court um the state court action was amended to add Federal cases they both went to the federal court ultimately the the plaintiffs prevailed at the district court level and then it went up to the 11th circuit which is the next level um below the the Supreme Court of the United States it went to the 11th circuit the 11 circuit reversed it and sent it back down to the district court the Middle District Court of Florida Consolidated the cases and found in favor of the city um based on a variety of different things um based there there was another minor uh allegation in it but it doesn't have to do with customary use it had more to do with someone being removed from a board who was litigating against the city but with regard to this this order which yeah didn't something yeah uh so this this is a very interesting order um not I mean because it was remanded down from the 11th circuit I'm not sure they have much of an appeal to go back to the 11th circuit but this is a 53 page order I'm happy to send it to you all but it is um part of the argument they the judge goes through a a really good job of laying out the procedural history and in the analysis of all the elements that came out of um that Florida Supreme Court case that I talked about where it talks about ancient historical and without um you know without um controversy it's very similar to the doctrine of prescriptive easement I don't know if you've heard of that where if somebody has used something for a long time like to to access to their house you know crossed over your bound and can prove that then it becomes an automatic easement it's somewhat analogous to that so the court had laid out and went through all those elements of ancient historical and of course the the city paid a lot of money for a consultant a historian to collect all this information which is really necessary in order to show like going back to when before the time the city was uh Incorporated showed how the public has used the beach for recreational purposes uh consistently and constantly and so I I I don't know that they have the ability to go back up to the 11th circuit on appeal just because it was already there and it was sent down but they may they may they may find some grounds to continue to litigating this but this is a a very important order um frankly it it's it's surprising a lot of it attorneys because this is this is what happens in court sometimes you get a judge that feels that uh this is how it should be you know analyzed and it came out because a lot of Attorneys at the time when the state law was put in place um read it to mean that uh you can only have in place an ordinance for affirmative defenses but this court has gone through a really good job of an analyzing it so um yeah we'll see where this one goes from there but at this point in time uh the city has prevailed um what is this 5 years later and who knows how much it costs them but they have prevailed uh with their ordinance to be able to allow the public to use the Sandy Beach uh land landward of the mean high water line uh for recreational purposes so is there any measurement on that or it just no it's it's the Sandy Beach the ordinance uh I could pull it up and look at it but I believe it's just so there's a definition for Sandy Beach um which is basically from the water up to wherever any vegetation starts and so usually it's something like that um so yeah it's uh really interesting case it's right in your backyard um I've personally long felt like okay why not um as time goes by you lose historical knowledge in this in in the city I know you have a great historic pres Historic Museum and folks that do that kind of thing but a lot of this was based on just testimony from people that have been around in in in Readington beach for a long long time remembering when I was a kid and I used to come here you know in 1950s or something like that um the same thing happened in up in the Panhandle when they were they had to do a long collection of information they even found um paintings in the Smithsonian Archive of you know the Panhandle beaches to to help bolster their um their argument that it had customarily and anciently been used without interruption uh for time and Memorial and that's what you have to argue um but now it's there's a statutory and and part of the the reasoning uh from the court was that uh and the plaintiffs in the court agreed that the state wouldn't have enacted a process for allowing for customary use ordinances to be put into place if they didn't believe that there are some instances where it should be the case so they didn't totally ban customary use ordinances they just put in place a process which to my knowledge no one's gone through that process yet um but I I think that was used as support for showing that it wasn't banned that the State of Florida um has a long history of allowing the public to use use the beach um so it's a very it's a very good case to read I'll be happy to forward it to all of you um definitely some of it's a lot of legal ease but it's not really that hard you don't have to be a lawyer to read it I mean it's very interesting because uh I think a lot of people are going to be looking at this I'm kind of curious to see what they do with it yeah we do with it exactly I I read the case and and and I I did find it fascinating and but one of the things that me by surprise before when you were talking about took takes an easement for us to go on the beach is that the the As I understood it the state bill that created that procedure for creating ordinances for customary use a lot of people may I thought it misinterpreted it because customer use exists or existed just the way prescriptive easements existed but in the same way if the state said okay now there's going to be procedure for you to take a prescriptive easement and document it it seemed like that really what that state Bill did was say if you have a customer use here's the procedures to to document it and and so that it didn't take away our customary use rights and that you know that question's still open uh and so I mean I remember at least the the attorney for trade wi's even saying she didn't want to get into whether it was customer use or not just regardless of that she was reserving the 15ot easement so that's why you know I I think that even prior to this case I think that the customer use is still a question and then now that we have this case it even bolsters us further I leave it to the the city commission maybe to figure out the mechanics of that but yeah I mean like I said it's a Doctrine it's a well-known Doctrine goes back to English law doctrine of customary use um back when people would you know block up creeks and then they they go to the king and say we customarily use this Creek we need to be able to use it that's where it comes from so uh it's still a it's still a legal doctrine that applies uh it's just that the state exercises its authority to manage it you know thank you okay um Jennifer you I know I think IO puts this report it's this is the report from the quarterly report from uh the police department and I know July isn't here and I believe the video you're talking about is did it happen in July I don't remember exactly um I've just I've never noticed a trespass warning or a trespass citation on one of these and it's my question is how often is that I saw that on back door wherever someone brought it to my intention next door back I don't know uh I'm not a social media guy uh uh but um can you just make sure they include trespass warnings in like that just so we know if that's if this is a widespread Pro problem um I did ride along with the the department up and down the beach and we talked about that and I asked how many times he they get called and he couldn't recall one uh of of doing that this was before the trade wins incident um so would just be interested at least on the beach right I know there could be trespassing other places on the city but where a private owner is trying to enforce private rights I I just how often does it happen I don't think very often but um the sheriff going to be here at City commission meeting in September because their contract's up for Renewal so I'm asking them to do a little bit of a presentation um and I if that's next on the agenda the quarterly report I know iako puts this together so I just wanted to highlight a few things I know you guys have it um obviously this is through April through June so anything in July wouldn't be on here um uh special events or as far as weddings 81 total for this quarter this is genuinely um our slowest season cuz no one wants to sweat horribly on the beach on their wedding day but um so this is our low season I guess for for Beach weddings um and for years I was doing the beach wedding permit so I could say to that and then I'll get into the citations I just want to compare because I think it's important to note we've done a lot with the Sheriff's Office and the commission has a lotted certain dollar amounts for us to have extra Patrol on the beach and the amount of warnings and citations that we have done in the last year has exponentially increased and I think um Wayne Saunders at the time at Commission meeting also brought this up so I just want to compare last year because I pulled up that report and this year um this current year we did four citations and 180 warnings where last year we did six citations and 83 warnings so we've over doubled the amount of warnings um and it's a it depends on what the situation is and where they do the citations and where the warnings go um I think I from what I hear from the sheriff is they like to be able to inform people that might not be from here you can't have dogs on the beach they might issue a warning and then they're in the system and that's where the citation comes the next time so it's a um educational is how they see warnings a lot of times but um the increase from last year to this year I think is is substantial and it has been in other quarters as well um and I I think iako provide you that but I just wanted to kind of hone in on that and then I just wanted to highlight the beach Ambassador training in June um I think it was um well attended mhm um so I'm excited for everything that everybody's doing regarding that and um I think we're on a good path to to where we're at with some of these volunteer groups so I just wanted to mention that um on top of everything on the quarter early report if you have any questions regarding the quar early report I can attempt to answer I don't mean to focus too much on just one aspect but how many people how many ambassadors do we how many people been through the Ambassador training and that training I believe was over 25 okay what I got from iako after yeah yep so a very good too and just it's interest when you do you get a blue vest and a badge you know saying the city and all that we were my wife and I did it and uh uh we had several people come up hey what are you doing like that and we very engaging and very appreciative and then when we did find issues there were oh I didn't realize that and they quickly addressed it so as long as you come up with a positive um attitude towards the public U we didn't have any any issues and these are old tur related issues or any issues on the beach we walked up there was a glass bottle I think there was a dog a couple dogs right where we addressed that and informed them that there's a dog there's a dog beach that they should go to and none of them played the hey I have a Sur well no I have a service dog they didn't play that uh now there are legitimate service dogs I'm not trying to play Down that for the record it was a very positive experience and I encourage you all to um you know go through the training get a blue vest and walk the beach thank right thank you John okay I think this gets us down to the item F which we actually already talked about as far as the co planning and John thank you very much for what you had done because he was getting the permits working with the city that's harder than planting the sea tell you that right now the only thing on the sea planting that I wanted to add and I I communicate this to ioko but I sure that should be there because I think she's out of town with an emergency um is that there's a prescribed area it's on the last page of the agenda of the packet which is the area of upam and it borders on an area where I've previously observed people moving now that I look maybe I've learned that it was fountain grass but maybe it wasn't maybe it was seots not still not sure um but they were sort of making a a dune or a marsh where there wasn't one and and blocking people and and so I just want to make sure that that this project very much stays within purely that upam Beach area and doesn't go to the sides it only is the up them I don't think we want to contribute to putting Dunes where there aren't Dunes on the map that's on that map that's in the attachment so as long as we stick there we're fine if you know I I was involved I worked with the the county and the city and IO and Mandy have been very helpful uh just passing that on to to Jennifer um it's it's going the existing vegetation lines it will not be encroaching into existing path or access anything of like that and it's staying on public property not private property yeah great right to do that the private you know private property itd have to go through the same process we went through to get that and by the way this is the plant material is from the county and they do an annual giveaway of Coots to and anybody can apply for this both public and private and U you know they do this it starts every spring then you have to come up with an application and get do exactly what you're doing and show where you're doing it they actually come out they approve it um we worked with the Florida Department of Environmental Protection got their approval got the county all all of that but but no no access will be cut great I saw your email um to iako you know with your concerns so okay we we made sure that that your concerns were addressed I guess you saw that as a oh you know it wasn't a sunshine it was it wasn't as a beach Steward it was as a planting person uh it's all good it's all good thanks all right now we're going to get into our additional agenda item person was the process of adding yeah I I flagged that because I thought that uh the process was that ioko sent out an email uh to all of us asking for items for the agenda and I know that Mr commissioner Stevens here today just mentioned for instance he put passor Grill on the agend on the agenda uh but when I sent my response in I got uh an email back from Mr McConnell saying uh as we've discussed before you cannot on your own add things to the agenda without the consent and approval of a majority of the board members the best way to achieve this would be to raise any issues you would like add it to the next agenda prior to the meeting ending uh and and so and then you gave a reason this said the staff could repair Etc but I don't understand that to be the case I know we all try to do that we have ideas for next meeting we you know it's not on the agenda where we have an item called next meeting's agenda maybe we need to add that but that's not what's that's not what our current implementation is so I was just a taken back that and this is this is not the first time it's happened where I've submitted things and didn't see them on the agenda so I was just confused uh and trying to understand or trying to clarify that I think that the agenda process is ioka sends out an email we respond we don't see see see everybody else because of the Sunshine Law and then then it goes on the agenda and then it's approved by the other uh Beach stewards during the uh action item of um approving the agenda so that's what I thought the process would be so generally in in the board meetings we do come consensus um io's new to run in these meetings so I think she's learning the ways but typically in the meetings we do a follow up I write all the notes of what you guys talked about and then at the end I could say let me just confirm what I heard you that you guys want to talk about at the next meeting if there's anything else we add that to it and then it would be the city staff that puts out the agenda now of course you can always add things to the agenda like you just did this morning um that's on there knowing that we may or may not have the answers to that so I would just say at the end conclusion of this meeting I will reiterate my notes that I took based on the discussions we had today and to see if there's anything else you wanted to add to make sure it's on the next agenda then note also the things I was adding were all things that occurred since the last meeting they were about an incident of Tradewinds an incident of dolphin Village the you know later on it was the Readington and so I just wanted them to wanted I wanted people to be prepared so I figured rather than waiting and because I had got an email it was specifically one sentence along that said what items would you like on the agenda I thought that meant we're supposed to respond with what items we like on the agenda and I was rarely taken back to have legal tell me that that's not the process well think of it from a common sense point of view that if all five of you forwarded five items that you wanted on the agenda that's 25 items that staff would have to be including legal would have to be prepared for and you would have a very large agenda so typically under your Robert's Rules of Order you know you would bring up things as um as you did um at the beginning of the meeting and say I'd like to add this are there any amendments to the agenda and you'd add it and you discuss it as a group and then as Jennifer mentioned you know we take notes during the meeting and bring things back but it it's just from a a management point of view if everybody submitted items in between meetings it could become unmanageable well aoko has been doing this for months now and it hasn't been 25 items it's been a manageable number and I don't know why we why we would change it I I we didn't have a discussion item to change it that's why I was surprised by by Mr McConnell's email we you know we have a procedure in place you would have to ask him yeah I didn't know who was going to be here today thank you I didn't know who was going to be here today yeah but I think he made the right call heard his decision so I think it's a burden on the on this committee on staff if it's just open-ended for everybody to just submit items randomly that they want to have on the agenda um Additionally you know when is the cut off time when does the agenda get published I mean there's notices that have to be done so I would if I'm sure the clerk's office would be a little bit concerned about it because you know there are notice um deadlines when you have to publish agendas and things like that so um it does Place quite a bit of work on staff to do it that way well exactly that's why ioko puts a deadline on it and again the idea was that rather than us coming to the meeting and try to add items to the agenda to have people not prepared by us responding two weeks ahead that gives uh time for it to go in the notice for the public to come and provide comments if it's relevant to them and for every everybody to be prepared so I don't know why we're changing it or if we are changing it I I don't know that you're changing it I think that that was how it was set up or the way that I would think that it was set up but I mean certainly you you all can talk right now and decide that yeah it's okay for all of us to send items um um to to that but I mean you can't if it's a legal item you can't expect us to be ready for it I mean I'm not going to like just um stop everything that we're doing just to you know answer 20 legal issues and they weren't all legal issues yeah sure I know but I mean I'm just thinking ahead like if everybody started doing that you know so is it each committee can choose its own or do we have a standard for for the city the way the way that public meetings happen is that for you all to talk about things as a body you have to do it here okay um if you decide that you want to adopt rules of procedure and that your rules of procedure allow for sending the city without copying the other members or anything like that you don't want to have a Sunshine Law violation um you know things to be put on the agenda um it just seemed it just doesn't because what if another board member has an objection to that and doesn't want to have that on the on there that's cover at the beginning of the meeting you finish so I'm just saying that's why it's really better to do it at at your meetings you know to talk about it and say I'd like to have this on the agenda at the next meeting that way there's it's it's open to everybody we can talk about it we can decide you know the scope of that um how much work has to go into it um remember the city staff has has a lot of committees and boards that it has to staff and so if that type of procedure was put in place for everybody it would be a lot of work since this is an open meeting let me just ask then did anyone else when they send in a comment get the same response can I okay I was so we need to decide right since I've joined I received an email from iako saying hey what do you want on the agenda uh that's been kind of the going Rhythm or procedure uh do we want to continue that or do we want to change and go by Council saying things to be put on can be we should be saying at the end of this meeting for next next and we also have the ability at the next meeting when we approve the agenda as member kersman or vice chair kurman has done um add at that time well I think I just I mean that's do we want to continue or not but we also have to take if we do it as it's been as we've been doing it uh we could put a lot of stress on the staff if we all came up with five different issues it doesn't typically happen but no and it's been customary for that little statement to go out with each mailing I've ever seen um but I think I put asked for one thing to be put on it has anyone and if it's go Ahad if it's I I questioned that when I first saw it because uh it there's a sunshiny thing in there so I I would boun to legal advice on that well and and I agree with that because one of my concerns and this is also something that I uh I like a lot of Municipal lawyers are struggling with the same thing with social media because you have this as you know like sunshine law can be violated by using a conduit okay and so if one person says I'm going to tell staff to put this item on on there and then the the item comes then it's published then it's you know okay is is that a way of communicating with other board members even though it's going through staff I don't I don't know I I mean I get worried about that that's why I prefer that things are talked about in the public and you follow that order now of course if there's something where an emergency happens or there's something really big and dramatic that happens in between meetings you know that I think there should be some flexibility for that that where it's really necessary to talk about this and and and do that a procedure but I I do worry about um you know someone making an argument against the city saying that okay if if you're asking board members like what to put on the agenda and then somehow uh that information gets to another board member um um is that using the city as a conduit to have a conversation outside of the sunshine but but that's not what's happened go ahead that's not what's happening I mean I didn't see the agenda till it was published and I saw at the same time the public did and and and to really if seep accidentally said like forwarded that email to another board member or something like that or said you know like or had a conversation with another board member and said well committee committee uh so and so wants this on there there will always be issues like there was an issue about Co and then it does get forwarded somehow but that's because it was material to the effort um the I I guess to understand though the real scope of the issue If there really is an issue um I mean I've sent them in a couple times and I've had two occurrences where my items didn't make it onto the agenda you know ahead of time has any anyone else has everyone here sent in items for the agenda have you you all sent in items have you ever gotten that that response that it's inappropriate to to send in the items and I I I don't feel that this was a general policy I feel this was uh specific to me getting that email uh and that's why I was a little disturbed by it but I want to understand since it's since this is now the open meeting has any was anyone else told that the procedure is they're not supposed to provide these answers to io's email each week each each meeting it could be sticky in my mind but there's another problem that if something as Council said if if it's time critical then there has to be a way and our time between meetings is so long that um if things are important we wait three months to deal with them I don't know if that's so good I agree so so the other issue is you know if do do you want to kind of ask committee members to to show some restraint maybe um because if one member happens to be prolific at requesting things um okay that seems reasonable yeah right and I would just ask that if there are agenda items that it's not assigned that staff assigns who is going to be speaking on it be what that staff assigns who's going to be speaking on whatever issue it was right they may not be possible to put everything that's on the agenda may not possible that was the misunderstanding at the last meeting that certain people were going to be here and it was not communicated okay that way so all right that that addresses that for me that I added all right and our next one is Communications yeah I added that because um not not to be prolific in my items that I add but this has been something that we've discussed and maybe it needs to be an item on each agenda um you know when we talk about incidents or Communications um after the last meeting Jennifer issued a memo to the staff which looked like it would be very positive to help in making sure the beach stewards were put in the loop in certain things I haven't studied it to see if it really categorized this particular area but for instance um at one of the city commission meetings that I was watching uh someone came forward and they said they written a letter and sent a video about borish and loudish behavior on the beach and peeing and this just a whole bunch of things and they they wanted to make sure it was addressed now I don't think our ordinance has borish and loudish in there I never I thought I had a good vocabulary I didn't even know what either of those words meant I I confess I looked them up I'm like oh that's that's bad um and and so this is the kind of thing though that we ought to know I think I don't know why they didn't include us uh when they were saying hey these are the things happening on the beach that upset us why aren't you addressing the city um so those also would be the kind of things that I would hope would be forwarded to us and again it doesn't mean that we're in the loop that we're we're stopping progress it just means that that we might look at it and go oh gee we ought to consider it or at least make sure we have the same information this City commission has and I didn't see it in their packet either so I didn't really even know what the links were to watch the video or to understand what the the whole concern was so again I'm just looking for how do we redefine the rules or what do we do do we I think when it comes to legal issues legal should be handling that is that a legal issue it's not something that this board has to determine I didn't know that it was a legal issue though I don't know you're just telling me that there was a complaint with some illegal activity on the beach well I don't know if it's I mean okay well that or violation would be something I would send to legal to have them make that determination first and so would be stewardship who's responsible for making sure that you know that the Health and Welfare and everything on the beach is good not want shouldn't be in the loop to know that these incidents occur I don't know if I if I may I don't know if I'm I think would be effective for us in real time or near real time to get every complaint sent to us fine um which is what I heard that I don't know if that's what you meant I do know that you know we do get this which is a report of that of police activity I would say you know perhaps if there are other complaints could be included in a report but I don't know if I need to be told every time there is a complaint of bad behavior and if I remember cuz I saw that meeting as well you know you had somebody come up in general comments which is I don't know I think it had to do with the Silver Sands it was the Silver Sands July 4th complain complaints and and they they from they're right next to upam Beach I mean that's I mean yeah I mean I'm just I don't know if I wasn't looking to react I I don't you know I just want to understand and say hey maybe there's something we should be putting on our ordinances we still have an out outstanding ordinance you know is there something that we're missing that we might want to address and so I just thought it' be helpful to know I didn't need to know it real time but even as of today I have no idea what really they were complaining about I think John is right you're getting a quarterly report that gives you fre activity oh John without the [Laughter] H that that provides that with you it sounds like we want to add trespassing on there um if it's not already I don't know assume the police would put that in there I would assume too but I don't think there were any police police any anything happened from that I mean I I know Silver Sands they're not they're in a difficult I mean yes I mean if you're up against a public beach you're up against a public beach it's the way it is on Fourth of July everybody goes to the beach um they have their own security guards we received a letter that um I recall receiving a letter from their Association I'm not sure who it was addressed to if I was copied on it but it it outlined a whole bunch of grievances that horrible things that happen people swimming in their pool there security guard being accosted and so forth and so on um I don't know that any of that is true or not true I mean but as far as I know there hasn't been there was not any police activity as a result of that was there Jennifer I mean do you I mean they may be sometimes the sheriff so the beach is very difficult for the sheriff I mean the sheriff is always going to be concerned about violating civil rights and so the when the sheriff who has contracts with multiple municipalities and especially when you're dealing with the beach where are the property lines not everybody it's legal description goes down to the mean high water line some of it some of them do some of them don't and they and then some of them if you take the county beach you know the property lines are are not east west they're angled so when a sh when the deputies get to the beach they I think that they just do the best they can to try to um to solve the problem without um getting their Department into um a a problem you know because it's not easy it's not like if you're in a a property in a in a neighborhood where you can easily determine if somebody is trespassing or not it's just not as easy as you think it is on the beach is difficult yeah and I again I'm not trying to even get into the details of every little incident it was more there was a general complaint to the city commission and that's why I was thinking that the be Steward should be I think that was just a followup to the letter actually because it was very similar things and you know and I feel for Silver Sands because they're in between a resort and up on beach and up and Beach is a beautiful beach but like all beaches I mean population is growing in Florida it is and and the but beaches are not growing unfortunately everyone understands there was no beach there years ago yeah it used to be the aquarium and yeah and it was created yeah there's lots of controversy silver sand Silver Sands is an interesting one because there is um an ecl line there a contest it um so you know it's on the aquatarium D but okay I I know I've seen the photographs all right and I believe Andrew you covered the Readington issue sorry I jumped ahead that's okay the right time I I will I will send it to you uh when you have time nice 53 page read definitely double space though iow I skipped some sections but I still got that just okay I think we're at adjournment second yes hold on I just want to discuss possible items that for the next agenda that's okay good um the audit on the lighting I obviously we could send that to you once we get it but I think I'll put that as an agenda to discuss typically at their next one I'm guessing we have Turtle Joe and his and Teresa come to do a full report regarding Turtle activity for the season and give us numbers right put that on your calendar Joe I can give you up today C but if you want no I think our next meeting is going to be at almost at the conclusion of turtle season so typically you guys come in and give us a full seasonal report um I think it would be good to have Mike Clark or someone from Public Works speaking directly about the renourishment project about the county so they can answer some of those questions that you guys had um did I miss anything be ordinance continue and in between that a standing item until it gets passed and then I'm for the lighting if you don't mind it's just not the audit but then I know again you guys are busy follow up on the the the review of the the model ordinance and how it could be adopted okay here in the city which I know we already I think um John with and H mentioned that uh we already have some things and how it's going to blend together into a standalone Wildlife uh lighting ordinance correct so and in the meantime I will get you guys the cases I'll send it through staff so that you all get it individually not collectively um I'll also provide um all of you um John brought up the the impact state the law Florida law on on doing the impact statement for uh I'll share that with you so you have it ahead of time and you can read it and see what it entails um and then uh yeah and then we'll look into the beach lighting model ordinance for you thank you anything I'm we're missing I'd also like to add a further discussion uh maybe it'll be covered by the city commission by that time but you know what we uh a further discussion on the customary use or reading the decision like what steps we might take because you know maybe there's things people should be I'm I'm going to be meeting somebody with somebody this afternoon that has some old maps and taking pictures of those uh from an older older couple but really guidance on testimony or what we do with these people my concern before jumping into hey let's solve it let's make sure we what problem we trying to solve hence where I was asking how much trespassing what what are we actually seeing because the path that that leads down is long and and expensive um to go down a customary use conversation I'm not saying no but which way that's what the discussion would be let's let's uh where I I I just heard you saying hey I have maps and like that which would be going down the path to actually do it I would let's define if we're really having the problem and do we need to go through that then if we said yes then I would say hey let's go collect evidence right we would start a the commission would then we would give a recommendation to the commission to go down that path but I would want to kind of understand are we having a customary use yeah I've not heard of it yet but that doesn't mean it's not happening I've heard of it a lot so here here's here's what's with customer use I mean obviously I was born and raised in Florida I love the beaches so you know I have had this conversation with uh various commissions o since you know the the uh ordinance was this statute was enacted and I think there's always been this um this uh it seems like the philosophy is either like yeah I'm for that or let's just try to do it through our cup process and get um easements that way and so It's tricky because you do you you know it's just you know everybody's different and and the the commission as a whole so far hasn't seem to want to take it up as an official um thing because of it it may send off uh you know signals that were heading in that direction I mean my feeling is as I said earlier has been it doesn't hurt to collect information as long as you do it in a methodical way because you don't really have to enact the ordinance in order to do it but my concern is that that as folks move away or pass away you lose that historical knowledge of the beach you know and um I have expressed that over the years um to um Commissioners when you know either colle collectively or individually and I don't you know I can't push policy I'm not going to but I do have to point out that that is a step in the process is being able to document the historical use of the beach and um you know like Readington Beach hired a person to who was a historian and knew how to collect all that information um but you know maybe each one of you should speak with the whoever appointed you and just find out where they stand on this because it it could be an awkward public conversation that may send off signals that will be what which will be misunderstood by people out there who will like then file lawsuits that are what's your time FR him yeah I mean historically P the grill has been a fish camp where people pulled their boats in and cleaned their fish and cooked them no doubt about it so no doubt about it I think that when you read the case though it says that antique ancient use is really about 100 years yeah yeah agent means a week ago um but just to wave some fears also I I think one of the reasons I brought up now is because I think one of the guidances I heard at either City commission meeting or somewhere else was let's wait and see how Readington goes before we discuss it again and that's the only reason why I'm discussing it again uh and the other thing is uh I think that you know for the whole Beach there's one unique area lot M andn that I think there already was some cases that have already decided where that stands so there's concern on there you know I don't know if that's affecting some of the discussion right now but I think that one is a little different than the rest of the beach um maybe just mention that maybe yeah but I like your idea of or your recommendation of reaching out to each who appointed us and just talk to them I wouldn't want to put them on the spot at a public meeting and have because you know it sends off it may be interpreted by people who live on the Beach as oh my God they're going to take cuz that's what this was this was a lawsuit in ring Beach when they enacted this they they said this is unconstitutional taking of my private property and can you imagine how much money they've spent on this lawsuit I mean and you just don't want to just because you're starting to collect data you don't want us it doesn't mean that you're actually going to go through with it but you want to have the data in place that was just all that was just my suggestion because I I worry about um as time goes by you know you have 20 years from now you you have a whole different group of people living here don't have anything thank different ideas of what a beach is supposed to be the beach might not be here the be prob it' be a different kind of beach one big storm conrete okay are we all clear now on a German good good to go let's discuss it as a thank you