e e e e e e e to order Beach stewardship committee today is Tuesday June 18th and it is 9:00 a.m. would you please join me with the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge of Allegiance to the flag the United States of America to The Republic it stands one nation God indivisible liy okay thank you everyone and Jenny could we have a roll call please member Panic here Vice chair kurman here member Welch here member Stevens here chair rothenberger here we have a quum okay thank you Jenny first thing we have this morning is a presentation and I just wanted to share with you a little bit about the person who will be doing the presentation it's St Stacy gager she is a development and policy coordinator for the Sea Turtle Conservancy she is involved with a Conservancy project to mitigate beachfront lighting issues she Advocates on behalf of sea turtles and their habitat at the local state and federal level Stacy thank you for being with us this morning thank you can everyone hear me yes yes okay perfect so is it are you ready for me to present yes yes the floor is yours floor is yours Perfect all right let me just share my screen can everyone see the presentation yes okay I can um yeah so good morning thank you all for having me uh it was great introduction um we heard about your effort to update your ordinance a few weeks ago and we're so excited that you're willing to pursue that effort it's definitely worthwhile uh so this presentation will be fairly short um I'll just talk about why it's important to update your ordinance uh what the new 2020 State model lighting ordinance is and how we uh SE Turtle Conservancy and National Wildlife Federation um can help you throughout that update process so if you run into any questions um after the presentation I'm happy to help and I also want to note that I have Joe Murphy here here he's with National Wildlife Federation uh he just started 5 days ago so he's fairly new but uh he eventually will be you know once the process begins he'll be working with you guys to update your ords so just a little bit of background about Sea Turtle Conservancy uh we are the oldest sea turtle conservation group in the world we're a nonprofit We are based in Gainesville Florida and we were founded in 1959 by Dr Archie Carr who's pictured here and he's considered the father of sea turtle research uh he served as our scientific director for uh many years until 1987 and since our founding our research and conservation initiatives have helped save the Caribbean green turtle and we help to raise awareness and protection for sea turtles across the globe we have a really big focus in Florida because 90% of all sea turtle nesting in the US occurs in Florida but we also have programs in Costa Rica Panama Bermuda and all throughout the Caribbean and one of our major programs is working with Coastal Property Owners to retrofit their lights to be wildli friendly and that effort started in 2010 after the Gulf of Mexico oil spill there were massive settlements to a variety of entities one of those being the national Fish and Wildlife Foundation so we are using funding from that of money from the oils bill to help recover sea turle nesting habitat on the Gul Coast So currently our retrofit projects are based in your area in Southwest Florida from pelis County all the way down to Coler County and since our lighting retrofit efforts began in 2010 we have retrofitted more than 300 properties across the state and at properties that had disorientation Data before the retrofit we've been able to witness a disorientation rate falling to 0% so basically we know that using Wild Life friendly lighting Works in reducing CA tural disorientations and we've also restored more than 35 miles of nesting habitat throughout the state so just some background on you know kind of our our experience and why we're able to uh you know speak knowledgeably about this issue so the topic at hand why doding ordinances matter I kind of alluded to this but Florida is incredibly important for sea turtle nesting in the US our three newers here in Florida are the loggerhead green and leatherback sea turtle and just to give you an idea of the scale of nesting that we have here 2023 was a record-breaking year for nesting in Florida there were over 135,000 nests in 2023 for logger heads more than 7,000 nests for green turtles last year and then nearly 1,700 leatherback nests in 2023 and this map here shows large segregations of logger head nests all throughout the world and you will see there's those kind of big orange dots in Florida and over in the Middle East and those are the two largest loggerhead aggregations in the world but the aggregation in the Middle East is declining pretty rapidly which means that our loggerheads that nest in the Southeast us are the largest aggravation of loggerhead nests in the world so this basically just indicates that the decisions we make on our beaches here in Florida have Global implications for loggerhead in particular survival unfortunately our sea turtles face a lot ofic threats as you can see here but the threat at hand that we're trying to mitigate with lighting ordinances is the threat of light so just quickly for those who might not be aware of the impact of lights on sea turtles um we know that short wavelength unshielded you know High Lighting on Coastal properties can really impact sea turtle survival for adults on lit beaches that have this unshielded short wavelength light uh adults will likely turn around and try to go elsewhere so they'll emerge on the beach and realize that Beach is incredibly lit up and they'll do what's seen here as a false crawl where they crawl onto the beach and then immediately turn back around without nesting so to illustrate how sources of light impact sea curtle nesting an experiment was done that had a completely dark Beach and then it had a beach with mercury vapor lights on it and basically what they found here is that uh you could see on the top in the Black Box nesting occurred pretty much as normal there were you know false crawls and nests occurring but on the beach with the mercury vapor lights as you can see in this red box there was essentially no nesting and very little Fe and false crawl activity so what you can see here is that nesting activity significantly decreases in on uh beaches that have you know uh a lot of lights on them unfortunately adult turtles can also become disoriented by lights um example this is in the Florida Keys a turtle was found on the road could very easily have been hit by a car um and if that were to happen particularly for adults you know they have the ability to produce thousands of hatchel in their lifetime luckily this adult was able to be recovered but it just really illustrates how adults can be impacted by artificial lights uh hatchlings can also suffer that same fate when trying to reach the water after emerging from your nests so there are two main ways that Ashling orientation is impacted by problematic light on our beaches the first is through misorientation which you can see here in this picture you can see those crawls from The Nest that emerge they're all crawling in the wrong direction toward one property the water's there in the background so this is a misorientation where they're all crawling in the same direction it just happens to be the wrong direction and then the other option is a disorientation where Turtles emerge from their nests on a lit Beach and they're traveling in all kinds of different paths confused on the beach and you can see here that these tracks don't really go one way and unfortunately while hatchlings are spending time disoriented or misoriented on the beach they're using up valuable energy that they need to go offshore to safety so as they're burning up this energy they're getting more and more exhausted dehydrated which leaves them vulnerable a to Predators such as this night herin or all kinds of other different Predators on the beach so we know scientifically that short wavelength light disorient sea turtles and that's what we're seeing here in this figure each line represents a different species of sea turtle and the proportion of capulin that were attracted to the specific wavelength of light that you can see on the bottom and as you can see uh all four species had 100% attraction rate when they're exposed to short wavelength light that purple blue green wavelength which we see as white this attraction rate goes down however as the wavelength gets longer so those oranges amers Reds so this is why SE tural conservation is use that long wavelength light to retrofit each Tru properties so this just further shows that example of what short wavelength light looks like under a spectroscope so here are some com uh common bulbs that are probably in your building right now or in your own homes um with you can point this device at it and you can see the wavelength that is emitted so you have those violets those Blues those greens that is short wavelength light and that will Orient sea Turles and it impacts humans as well in comparison with long wavelength light which is achieved through Amber LEDs or even low pressure sodium although it's being fed out it's a very narrow band of that longwave link light and that is what we're trying to get at when we use Wild Life lighting so the State of Florida in partnership with technical advisors has determined that using long wavelength light shielding it so the source is not visible from the beach and using lower mounting Heights is the best way to mitigate problematic light for reaching the beach and this here is an example of all three of those rules so just to show some examples of what wildli forthing lighting looks like in the real world uh this is a property single family home in the county that we've recently retrofitted you can see there's a short wavelength flight it's unshielded it's visible from the beach and you also notice that there's interior light you can see directly into this person's home their bedroom uh their kitchen um but after we retrofited you could see that there's long wavelink light we shielded that light there on the first floor and we also tinted the windows on this property so going back this shows these windows with essentially no tint at all and then this is what they look like with tint so definitely an improvement from where it was before here are just some other areas on the property to demonstrate that you know high traffic areas walkways even underwater pool lights can be retrofitted using all light front liting uh this was kind of relevant to your area it's in Canela County it's Hing Clear Water Beach we've recently completed this retrofit very high traffic high visibility Resort multiple types of applications of light on the property here's what that property looked like before we retrofitted it and here's what it looked like after and because it is such an expansive property I wanted to show some high priority areas so restaurants we retro fitted um on the top right there is an event space we've got a parking garage and parking lots which have their own kind of recommendations that need to be met for lighting all possible to be lit with wild life friendly lighting so here's just more examples of what that looks like in the real world again showing a parking garage a spa area uh the technology has really improved uh to where pretty much any kind of application you need you can light with wildl from the lighting's some more examples there parking garages carports so now that we have that background on what Wildlife friendly lighting is why it's important I want to talk about this 20120 model that you all are looking into using to update your ordinance and how we can help you achieve that so what is the model lightting ordinance sea turtles are protected and managed through several levels of govern at the federal state and local level but in particular with the modol liting ordinance I want to talk about the state protection that it provides so through the marine turtle protection act and the beach andure preservation act the um state so D and FWC were required to put together model lighting ordinance guidelines so this is not a state law this is just guidelines that the state was required to put together that local governments can base their own ordinances off of so this just gives you an idea of all of the local lighting ordinances that exist throughout the state there are over a 100 there have been many ordinances passed since the early 90s so this just gives you an idea of the lay of the land of how many ordinances are out there in the state and it's important to note that the first model lighting ordinance that was passed was passed in 1993 so local governments have been basing their ordinances off of something that was passed before LEDs existed before a lot of the research we know now about Wildlife friendly lighting existed so this is why the update to the 2020 model was so important so in the 1993 model that local governments were using it recommended bug bulves which you guys might be familiar with that's just a short wavelength bul coated with yellow coating it recommended low press sodium fixtures for roadways which is now being phased out it's outdated uh it didn't mention temporary handheld lighting and it also didn't separate their recommendations by application so pool areas roadways Etc the 2020 model which was updated by FWC D um has really added a lot of important research and Technology into it so it recommends those longwave L lamps and refers to fwc's Wildlife lighting program it does separate lighting recommendations by application so pool areas parking peers it references fdot's Wildlife lighting guidance where fdot actually has Wildlife sensitive fixtures available for roadways in their approved products List It references that and it also refines a lot of the definitions to reflect what we know now so this basically the take- home message as this 2020 model that was updated by the state is much more uh effective to protect sea turtles than the 1993 model just because the technology has changed and that 2020 model reflects that so as I mentioned this new model is a great tool that local governments can use to better protect sea journals so finally last section how we being secret conservancy and National welllife Federation use this model to educate and help local governments update their ordinances um I don't need to share this with you guys because you might have your own process when it comes to updating your ordinances but typically a code enforcement officer or staff will bring the idea uh to the commission a task force or committee is formed like this one where you discuss what you want to update um that new draft is created either by you know this committee or sometimes we at STC your nwf work on that first draft there's usually multiple rounds of edits with input from stakeholders such as the public maybe your attorney other stakeholders that draft is presented to the full commission usually in the first reading the public hears it and then usually there's a second reading there's more feedback and then hopefully that ordinance is approved and I'm we are completely aware that this process is not quick that it takes a very long time uh but we're we're available to help you all so how can DC and nwf help you uh we can present like I'm doing now and attend committee and commission meetings to share our expertise uh on the best language what's worked what hasn't worked we use our Real World Lighting retrofit experience to inform suggestions on how the model can be on how your ordinance can be made better and we can also assist you with educating your community about the change so if you update your ordinance it's definitely important to educate the people who have to adhere to it what's changed and how they can so we have all kinds of materials for free available to help folks be in compliance with this new ordinance to protect sea turtles so the main takea away from this is that this new model is a great tool to help you update your ordinance to better protect sea turtles and SDC and nwf are available to help you every step of the way through that process so here's my contact information um I think folks of the city already have it but my email is just Stacy St cals.org and yeah thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have I have some questions but I'll defer to anybody here if they have some to go before me I have questions we can go in any order you like go ahead uh well thank you for your presentation um very nice and it's terrific to see this kind of effort being done um I read a study that showed that these guys came with barricades and they put barricades in front of the turtles as they were trying to crawl um and what it had concluded was without barricades the nests are evenly distributed randomly from the high water line to the first dune that they encounter and then when they put these barricades in front um what they found was that that just became the replacement of the Dune and they became evenly distributed between the high water line and the barricade um and the reason I'm asking about this is because I look at a barricade and I I didn't like the you know their their conclusion because what they didn't do is they didn't say how much moved like if if if a if a turtle did do a false scroll and they said they actually didn't increase from these barricades which I found odd uh but if they did the if they if they if they retreated whether they increased in the other spots and the reason I'm long- windly getting to that is you had a slide about the wrong kind of bulbs and you showed that when you had the right kind of bulb you know you had a lot of nesting in that area and if you had the wrong kind of bulb it decreased my question to you from that is it decreased in that area but did it increase in the surrounding areas or did we did we lose those nests I mean I have several questions but that was the the first concept of like do these false crawls are they a permanent thing or are they maybe they're just going to be going to a nest that might be better suited for them I mean I don't say that to be mean but we have large hotels in some area which maybe those lights are a warning like this is not a good place where we just have in those hotels probably almost equal to the number of people in the whole rest of the island when they're fully fully filled so we've got some real large hotels and then we have some large empty areas what I'm trying to get at is whether the goal of the lighting ordinance is you know Perfection we don't want any lights anywhere or do we do we want could we use the lighting to perhaps encourage the turtles to be in more suitable parts of our beach which are very nearby question okay so there was a lot there um so yes that is a very valid question we get that a lot um it is the scientists and conservationists do not want to deter nesting or even encourage disorientations in some areas with problematic lighting um it a disorientation by nature is a take according to the Endangered Species Act so we certainly do not want to be intentionally causing a tank of a protected species with problematic lighting um it is possible to safely light a condo hotel with proper lighting without you know compromising Turtles and human safety and it's also important to not introduce human intervention so you had talked about barriers um in some places not in the US there are you know there's caging there's runways that people have set up but when it comes to these this in you know this this problem that humans have created the best way to address disorientations by hatchlings and adults is by fixing the underlying issue which is the lights and to answer your question about you know if a adult will crawl up on the beach and then go elsewhere she will continue to find a place to nest and she might find a darker Beach further down but as I mentioned with hatchlings when they're expending that energy on the beach the same thing is happening for adults so it takes a lot of effort for them to pull them s you know hundreds of pounds of turtle on the sand uh they're typically in the water they don't do that very long often So eventually if she keeps encountering beaches that are lit with this problematic light she will not be able to successfully nest and she may just lay her eggs into the water which obviously will not allow her to continue to continue the species so um the that idea of introducing more light to deter Turtles to go from some areas it's just not scientifically the best way to conserve a protected species so then they don't see the CU I got the sense when on your graph that they actually didn't even start to crawl so I thought that perhaps the lighting if it was you know I mean some of these hotels are the I'm not going to name call but some of the densest areas of population do seem to still also have some of the densest occurrence of the lightning that you may not like that the turtles may may diffuse by and and and and so I'm just wondering if the bright light an appropriate bright bright light would scare off the turtle from saying I'm might have getting out here I'm going to go get out over here I couldn't hear all of that but so yeah so basically there are there are a few options the turtle could continue to emerge on the lit Beach and she just may not find it suitable and will exhaust herself to the point where She lays her eggs in a inopportune location where the nest will likely disorient which is could potentially kill over a 100 hatchlings or she might not Nest at all and she might just unfortunately deposit her eggs into the water so our approach is we know that there's a solution that exists to address the underlying problem so that's why we we go with that as opposed to trying to introduce human intervention in something that you know we have a solution so we want to try to to H doing that with ordinances and with retrofitting problematic lights I don't want to monopolize I'll come I do have some more questions but let me let someone else go anybody Stacy I I have a question actually too if we adopted this today which obviously isn't going to happen what would you think it would take in terms of time until we were in compliance that's a really good question and that's an important question to consider I would say um for folks to you know if they're if they are retrofitting their lights typically for our retrofit projects from start to finish we give large condos a year and we give single family home 6 months just because a lot of these materials you can't just walk into Home Depot and buy them unfortunately they're often you have to go through a lightning distributor and they're custom made um so that process can take a few months you know from ordering to getting them to installing them so um I think having you know comp 100% compliance is not something that I've witnessed in a community before um so it's kind of a hypothetical but bare minimum I think in the meantime while folks are retro you know in the process of retrofitting their lights they can turn off their problematic lights during nesting season and that can happen immediately you know okay so I would say if you're looking for some kind of grace period or a a Time name that you want to include in the ordinance we always say you know maybe a year at most because you don't want it to be too long that books don't take it seriously and you don't want it to be too short and that it's unachievable you know okay and also I saw that there was a sea turtle fund and I did check with Treasure Island and they have uh for violations I think it's 80 $88 and if you're not in compliance it just builds every day after that and so I saw in here the tur sea turtle fund so those monies are are supposed to go into that fund would that be for the city to manage that money coming in I believe that was the thought with it um it's important to note that the model it is just a guide so you as the city have the opportunity to take you know pick and choose what you want from it obviously there are some parts that are more important than others um but yes I think what the state was aiming with that sea turtle fund is to kind of provide a way for a city or a county to use the funds from those violations to you know to do education or to do something in relation to further protecting sea turtles thank you I have one observation if I could uh John brought up the barrier thing which I had thought of but that would act as you were saying to uh chase the turtles to the other side but she saying that she do and I'm I'm in favor of no lights on the beach period but um that might act as a sort of help if I sorry just to one just a disclosure um last two years ago at where I live which is a darker part of the beach um we found sea turtles in our swimming pool hatchlings um we didn't take that lightly and we actually um through our property manager found the Sea Turtle Conservancy and the grant program and we are going through it right now and we are 80% complete of putting lights up and becoming a turtle compliant uh building but just for the fact of we're we're about a block me block down from the Don CeSar and it's uh you know the hope to your point the the hotels are bright but even there in the small lights that were on my building M brought and um I live on Block M and if you go down there and see how deep Block M is and how much energy they would have had to use to go from their nesting at the D the top of the dun at the beginning of the vegetation all the way through to get to our swimming pool so it this happens disorientation happening um I also a proponent of this of uh of this ordinance and you know no lights on the beach or you know doing it doing it the right way um so it is happening we're we're doing it to your question about how long it took us um it took you know HOAs are HOAs it took us a while to get through the process to agreeed to to do it as an HOA as as those things happen but once we did we put we went through their process and the longest part for us and we're a smaller condo was ordering the actual material which took took 6 months um and it wasn't that it was custom made it was there's just a back order of this and you know we're waiting for boats from China to come in and all of that so it does take a while to get the materials now once we had it our our our property management had them up in three weeks so it's just replacing one fixture with another so it's it's not complicated electrical work um so I couldn't agree more with the program the topic and you know as you said I'm in 100% agreement that this is something we need to address as a city for wildlife good thanks John good good input I coule one more question well well actually it's few though but I'm just off of what he just said uh was the problem due to the fact that you were going off that name list of appliances that like is in this model ordinance versus just going for regular devices that you believe met the criteria but weren't certified in other words is is the reason there's a backlog because everybody's trying to get these certified devices I don't know the answer to that John I'm I just I'm giving you a real life experience right of how long it takes to get these so I'm I'm not a supply chain expert nor do I think we should try and pick out why that happened it's just as we address this we need to give ample time for property owners to um do the right thing thing before we start taking $88 or whatever we deem appropriate as a penalty we just we have to be mindful of that it it took a while that's that's a very interesting point that John brings up I didn't realize that it needs to be a certified who's certifying it first of all and there's the ability uh at least within the film business to tune up any light you any of the llds to exactly what you want so that's got there's got to be tons of stuff on the market that would satisfy the needs of the turtles so why are we talking about only certified things who certifies it I I can speak to that um so Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission does maintain a very large list of wildlife friendly products that they have certified so basically it's a good starting point if you have no idea what to buy but you want to buy the right stuff we always direct people to go to that list first however in your ordinance you can craft it so that you folks don't have to just use items on that list you would just have to recommend that their long wavelength so 560 NM or above shielded and mounted low and there are plenty of products that are not on fwc's list that do meet that criteria it's just in your ordinance you would have to you know specify what they need to have so basically the answer you don't have to use what's on fwc's list it's just incredibly easy for folks who don't know where to start it's it has everything listed there and they have certified a lot of products thank you so let me just since we have experts here of yourselves let me just tell you what my questions were um one is um what height under what height under a chair or other item is reasonable or our no chairs reasonable you know that a turtle might get caught U because we you know we have a lot of hotels that have chairs um they normally would spend the night out there also which of the species of the turtles that Nest here are indeed endangered is it all of them I mean you talk about Hawk Bill Ridley the the logger had the green I'm wondering which ones um and then uh I find that I've been in places where people CL should I should I should I do all at once or should we just we we should be time um so the the first question about the furniture that is that's a really good question I don't know if you guys are going to put Furniture in with your lighting ordinance or have it in a separate section I know typically cities have requirements when it comes to Furniture like they all all of the chairs have to be pushed to the toe of the Dune at the end of the night or something like that um in terms of you know what is the perfect height or what is a a recommended height for furniture or something that will get that will guarantee a turtle will not get stuck I don't know if that exists I think any any kind of furniture that's left out on the beach at night particularly just in the middle of the beach could be a potential obstruction for a nesting or hatchling turtle and I have examples of language that I could send to you all about how other cities have dealt with Beach Furniture if that would be helpful um so I I could definitely do that in terms of the uh species in Florida we get loggerheads backs greens and actually chemp Ridley which are the most endangered sea tural in the world um so all of those species are either listed as threatened or endangered Under The Endangered Species Act they all have Endangered Species Act protection The loger Head and the leather back are listed as threatened and the green turtle and the k l are endangered okay and then and then I guess I'll I'll make my last question um I've been stayed in places where there was a requirement and the people came at 9:00 or Sunset and they looked at the hotels and they said these are the windows that the curtains aren closed you need to close them and the guests are aware ahead of time you either close them or you're going to get a phone call or you're going to get a fine uh I personally put Turtle glass in my house in during a remodel I find it sort of depressing frankly it it it it darkens the the light coming in as well as the light going out so I can understand that some people may choose to want to use curtains so what's the sort of breakdown on where people go with that kind of thing uh in in communities yeah yeah that's a really good question the interior lighting is definitely a big topic when communities are updating their ordinances so actually so so there's a lot so the turtle glass um is a marketing kind of Ploy that unfortunately is not the most effective for sea turtles so typically Turtle Blass is 45% transmittance meaning that nearly half of that light from inside is making it outside and we know that that does not do enough to prevent disorientations so actually FWC because they have known that this turog glass is not the most effective for years did a experiment last year where they tested different tint transmittances and their impact on disorientations and pretty much what they found is that 30% transmittance or less was the most effective now when we talk about interior light we are not just talking about tint it is that combination of using tint and window covering so curtains blinds that really is going to be the most effective thing when it comes to preventing disorientation it's due to interior light so when you know you have to look at the model and see what the model recommends in terms of tinting but I can only recommend what is the best thing for sea turtles and that is that 30% transmittance or less just because when you go out onto the beach and you see 45% transmittance you can still see directly into people's buildings and you can still see that light making it way into the beach so that's what I can share in terms of what's most effective for sea turtles so could we ask then if you could share with us some beach furniture and also some of those kind of lighting kind of issues for nighttime curtains does that make sense yes I will um I'll make a note to send an example of be Furniture ordinance I'm thinking it's the town of key or Fort Myers that I'll I'll send to you guys um but yes communities are definitely dealing with the obstructions due to CH thank you Stacy thank you very much who would be the contact when it be uh Mr Stevens that I would send that to iako sorry aako that sent you the invite yeah Mr chair before we lose the presenter may I ask a question sure um Stacy thank you for the presentation this is Andrew dick and I'm the City attorney um as you Pro as you probably know like in Florida we now have to do a business impact statement when we adopt an ordinance would you happen to have anything like that as if we look at this ordinance we're obviously going have to do a business impact statement but I was wondering if anybody has done that yet they have and yes I can send them to you that would be great thank you thank you Andrew question good question yeah Stacy thank you very much great presentation thank you thank you and before I sign off I just kind of wanted to let you know you know that we available I don't know if you guys would craft the language and then if you want to send it to us we can make our suggestions on it um but we're we're available throughout the entire process so I definitely recommend that you look closely at the model and pick out the parts that you think would best serve their Community I do want to mention that we have um we did an analysis of all the language and implementation of all weding ordinances across the state and I did send those results to Mr Stevens um but I can resend them again but basically in that we really pinpoint the most uh high priority things that we think should be changed for you know updated new ordinance so I can resend that information to with the beach furniture and the business impact information so can I just ask then did you actually look at our section 444 and 445 of our land development code which had you know the lighting changes okay good I would love to see that that I I think you already sent it I'm sorry I think you already sent it iako and Jennifer I think you have that it was sent to you and I was on I was on that email you you can send that out to the committee and also share it with the city attorney here I mean that'll be really helpful for business impact also because a lot of these things I saw already were in our existing code may may not be enforcing them but they they're there yeah yeah in terms of the the kind of score that we um provided to local governments you guys were in the um somewhat ideal category so it's one through four you were in three with four being the best so there are just a few kind of minor things that I think can be toat that will make it a lot stronger for sure great thank you well feel free to email me if you R into any other questions and thank you all for undergoing this and talking about this it's it's definitely important for SE girls thank you Stacy thank you very much Mr chair one comment on this and that she brought up that I thought was relevant um and I don't know how much Matthew has educated you all to The Endangered Species Act which is a federal law was enacted in 72 1972 I believe um there are other endangered species in our city like birds I think the skimmers are also endangered or threatened um but one thing that she referenced was a word called take and it's a legal definition in The Endangered Species Act and it's essentially uh illegal to take without a permit okay and even harassing in any way they have a legal definition for harassment of endangered spe endangered or threatened species and I think we had a situation here one time where um some species of birds were being um considered in a nuisance and I think someone put out those uh those ows or scary looking totem poles or whatever and FWC literally considered that to be harassing and endangered species so I think it's very important to take this uh seriously I know you guys are taking it seriously but I didn't know how much you knew about The Endangered Species Act because it's a it's a very long and historic uh law that's propagated through the state uh State agencies that that does remind me of one of her slides also that was about threats yeah and it it it it listed a lot of things but it didn't list birds or fish which I think ultimately are the ones that are eating most of these baby turtles when they do make it out to the water are any of them in danger like are we dealing with endangered birds that need to eat the endangered turtles that's nature I don't think we can SU they can't be fined thank you John be yeah but anyway I just wanted to let you know about that I think it's important um and I don't I think it's maybe a matter of time before they consider lighting to be harassment yeah interesting thank you Andrew thank you Andrew y thanks okay we have an action to prove the agenda agenda um I would say that today is a special meeting we're dealing with the sea turtle lighting shark fishing do preservation if you've got something that's gerine to those things to add now is the time we can add them I believe I do uh and that is just the overall discussion of where the ordinance is going because at the last City commission meeting they did have a a discussion I don't know if you all watch that or or present um but I I think we should talk a little bit about just the how this ordinance is moving forward as an agenda item question clarifying question if I may are you are we talking about uh at the workshop we were we were asked to look at the sea tral lighting the lighting as a separate ordinance are you speaking about how that one's moving forward which is the agenda of today are you asking for the overall Beach ordinance overall because at the LA at the at the city commission meeting subsequent to the meeting you're discussing there was an agenda item to discuss the specifically the ordinance again and they were discussing whether the turtle should be done separately or what should be done I may phrase it differently they were discussing whether things should be done separately or together uh and and I think I've got a comment that I think may help us to bring everything together yeah let me just clarify that and maybe Jennifer can help me with it um I happen to be at that City commission meeting um I I thought the discussion was whether or not to um bifurcate the process and um deal with the intensity and density behind the resorts is that right Jennifer she's nodding her head yes for the record and it wasn't necessarily about turtles it was really about how do we get this ordinance on the books as fast as possible and maybe the more trickier part of it because there's more data to be collected in the I'm going to call it density and intensity of the use of the beach behind the resorts because there's a lot more activity there and staff wants to um do some studies in order to be able to back up um if we say this much of a setback Etc some more empirical data so that was the conversation it wasn't necessarily focused on C Turtles it was focus on maybe taking that last part of the beach ordinance and um berating It ultimately and this was the manager and I suggested this that you know you can go forward on first reading and make changes to that ordinance and if on first reading it appears as though you even at second reading if it appears as though that section of the beach ordinance remember this is an Omnibus big wieldy ordinance trying to get it all together if it's a if it's considered to be um that part of the ordinance isn't quite ready than to um break that off into a separate ordinance um that would be enacted later but go ahead and get the rest of the ordinance which affects you know the public beaches other areas on the books before you know like things start getting really active here on the beach um the difficulty with it obviously and I mentioned the business impact statement is that doing another ordinance would require doing a an amended business impact statement there's more notices uh more hearings and things like that so so so my discussion is we we you just covered a lot of it but my discussion is also just about the status of the ordinance in general okay I have a suggestion I'd like to discuss and okay that it's but Jennifer was that an accurate description yes yes okay great y I agree too okay okay then we'll need a motion um I have one potential add-on okay which we can agree or disagree to but as I I'm the one that added Dune preservation but you know after that fact and I didn't I I uh didn't make it in time for the cut off for for publication um if you look at you know we're doing a lot for sea turtles and you brought up seabirds and other Wildlife um should we if you look at the draft um Beach ordinance now there's a section on the dos and don'ts of protecting Turtles should there be a seabird section as well of the dos and don'ts there and then I you know I have I'm bringing suggestions on Dune protection and preservation um to be added as well and I know I'm making it I'm making the the Bild bigger but you and when we get to mine I'll say it's an opportune time to solve some problems um so my my suggestion for the agenda right now is should we also discuss briefly um seabirds being added and seabird protection I believe there is something in the ordinance now to that not not 100% sure but I browse through the draft yeah5 95 aren aren't there State ordinances that already do that in federal ordinance yeah there's absolutely uh State and well endanger Species Act as one of them yeah um and what I described to you is as far as I know oneof you know it wasn't a uh prevalence of uh you know of this harassment situation of seabirds I mean so I think the sea turtles are the most vulnerable probably just because they're grounded and they're so slow and they're so you know unique in their as a species versus birds that would take off and fly away and go to another place and it was the same concept as like do they find another place to you know forcing them to go find another place to Nest it was considered to be harassment in my quick perusal last the last few days I did miss and thank you Jennifer 9514 does solve okay some part of the problem so I no problem I bring it back no problem thank you in the process we added a few more of the birds that I appreciate you I'm so I'd like to make a motion then that we approve the agenda as is with the addition of the one item for um discussing ordinance approach have a second a second take a vote Vice chair kurman yes member Welch yes member Stevens yes member Panic yes chair rothenberger yes motion carries thank you [Music] Jenny all right before we will get into that though we'll have audience comments I do have a comment from Cindy Perry hello Cindy Perry um boaa ale Drive I now have two comments um one is regarding the black skimmers the Babies Can't Fly they're camouflaged they go down to the water's edge to cool off and get a drink and there is a lot of harassment that goes on with those birds so just for the record um when we Steward out there we try to you know alert people to their presence um but there are some issues and the um FWC does have a guideline for imperil nesting um Shorebirds so there is a reference in addition to the endangered species but the reason I put the card in is because um I was watching the news the other day and I heard that Treasure Island was going to be enforcing their no fireworks on the beach this year and they were getting the word out to people they said they had engaged the sheriff and basically they say that the fireworks on the beach are disrupting a lot of people that might want to be just out there to enjoy the sunset or whatever and they plan to take action this year to enforce their ordinance so my question is um what do St Pete Beach doing because I believe we have the same issue thank you okay thank you it's a good question that we already have no fireworks on the beach in our current regulations without a perm we ask Jennifer I would ask Jennifer a Jennifer question yes we don't we have a no fireworks and the last two years we have um specifically hired the sheriff to it's difficult to enforce you got to watch them lighting it off it's like lighting a cigarette or something you have to see them do it so um we added um officers on the beach just for that um it's been a little easier for us to do that with the fireworks being off the beach than in the past years where we had our own fireworks on the beach um but uh we have had that discussion and we specifically hired extra officers just for that so and we not only do it on the 4th of July we do it that whole week because this year it's on the Thursday that whole weekend so we've we've had that discussion I thank you Jennifer the only fireworks I know of the hotels on the 4th of July there is none which just we are doing them they had um there was one hotel who had them over Memorial Day and I think they'll do them Labor Day but they get permitted through our fire department to do that okay any other speakers not General comment General comment okay so we'll move on to our first action item here which is the Florida model sea turtle lighting ordinance and we can discuss that I I have a feeling that we're going to make a motion to say let's go ahead we we can't it'll be up to council and staff to to figure out what this ends up being but I think it's a certainly a good start so I in looking at the earlier draft uh it referenced this model liing ordinance it said oh we were to include it uh even though it had all our existing items still in our ordinances I I did not do the comparison but one of the things I think is very important to do for for the impact and really to understand because it look in some cases might even be weakening what we have um that what I would want to see is what are the changes between 444 and 445 which is our ordinances for current and existing lightning so even up to even if you had existing Lighting in 2008 2008 was the date where they said okay if you have existing lighting you need to fix it so between 2008 and today everything should always be meeting either the existing ordinates of 445 I think it was or the new ordinates of 444 I may have them switched but so when we now have this model we're not starting from scratch we already have a good ordinance or you know a good building block so my question it would be rather than just say hey let's just you know add in the model ordinance they could be conflicting with what we've got I would want to see actually the components of the model ordinance thought about and then compared to what's in 444 what's in our current ordinances and say okay this is what we're changing we no longer want to allow bug lights in existing structures we want we want something else so so I I don't have particulars of what I would say should be different what I'm just saying is that we can't just take this on its own because it conflicts even with our our own organ think about it Stacy said you know you can use this as a guy definitely pieces of it you don't have to take it so that's what we need to see is the red line of that so chair May yes and I I think it would be the in Jennifer and City attorney you can tell me if it's wrong is do this kind of a similar process of what's going with the beach ordinance yes we have some language some some lighting language in there that would be pulled out of there and put into this new sea turtle lighting and I would assume a part of that process you would look at the existing language the this model language from the state blend it and then come out with a recommendation that could be consumed by the public for comment and then you know through that process slide that Stacy put up or I would yield to the City attorney what's our process of how do how would we do this but I think it's taking what we already have which is good taking the model blending them together because I wouldn't say don't throw away don't keep both because then you have conflicting do what we're doing with the beach model have one sea turtle light in a Marine Lighting section however it's going to be called we're not missing anything and we don't have any duplicates and that would be a part of the process and I think um to your point that's I think that's what you're suggesting yeah I'm saying I can't I can't really even judge any individual things until I see what that comparison is and it I think it should be lighting period sea turtle is uh cutting out a lot of other things yeah I some said Mar yeah I like Marine Lighting or just environmentally sensible lighting period well well we already have a chapter I'm sorry go ahead yeah every time we add a new creature on we're causing a new uh wrinkle we already have division 44 which is the marine turtle protection of Our Land Development code we also have division 25 which is Coastal protection and conservation and then we also have the other chapters of our regular ordinances that are all you know mixed in so so we need to you know look at all of those and what we currently have and then align them not just for Turtles as you're saying for marine marine light as it relates to lighting yeah but I believe she said she did an analysis of our ordinance so that might be a good place to start I haven't seen it um but I'd be curious to see if if they found something in there that was um contrary to law or something to that effect so um apparently just not quite up to current standards of what's available okay the lighting it world has changed drastically in the last few years okay I think it's I love the the you know the the two cell phones yeah that was the flip phone versus the iPhone yeah this is just taking what has been put together in our code like that and just monitorize it let's centralize it and and I mean there there's yeah there's no denying I mean the an intent of division 44 the purpose is to protect sea turtles I mean the city is not moved off that position from ever and plus the you know if we were to change a position on it it would probably be not good but you know I'd like to see their analysis of it and start from there and see can it be melded in um I'm I'm always interested in trying to improve the city's ordinances for the better sure and just as we're doing for the beach get it all in one place instead easy to find went to several different places get in one place so it's one thing to draft a law and it's another thing to enforce a law and so enforceability has a lot to do with how you draft it where it is uh in in your you know list of ordinances and how hard it or easy it is to find you know and clear too as well because beaches are notoriously difficult to enforce because they're not like your regular real property where you have fences and you know I mean so we got to make sure it's clear and enforcable beaches are unique but that's what makes Florida great right true that's why we have it in our city name a point so I'll just make a recommendation all right um I think we're all in agreement of updating the lighting aspect so which is many sections of the um lighting ordinance that's on here um and Stacy you can jump in I think where I would I think it would be helpful for us to get something really together I think internally we need to work with code enforcement on the section four in here about compliance and enforcement to make sure that that language meets what we can actually um accomplish with our staff and then um penalties I think um Dan you talked about the sea turtle fund F so if we could get direction on um an amount that you would recommend for a penalty and whether you would want to have the sea turtle fund and what that would look like I think the lighting part is we just need to come up to code or come up to date to 2020 um with our iPhones um but I think the questions that I have as trying to craft this and Andrew jump in too is on the penalties the sea turtle fund and then um I can discuss with our code enforcement I know we want to have that procedure I just want to make sure the procedure we put in here is what we're capable of I think the lighting part is a no-brainer in my opinion but that's my recommendation or what I would suggest okay thank you Jennifer thank you with regard to fines I happen to be Meandering through the state law recently and I saw that there's some you know very strict guidelines that already sat if it's a misdemeanor of a certain class it's 5,000 if it's a misdemeanor of another class the maximum you could charge is 500 it's prescribed the question would be what type of penalties these would be right I think we would just have to look at the relationship between the state fines and what powers we have whether we're preempted from doing that or whether we have to report it to an agency that actually will do that I'd have to look into that I'm not familiar with it but yeah it's a good point I don't think we could just arbitrarily come up with a fine right it's not a no I don't know how is came up with theirs theirs is $88 $88 but it does under limit it keeps increasing by day which I think in the model has that same framework so they might have taken it from the framework and they put in an88 okay yeah I'm I'm not voting yet for $88 there has there has to be some teeth right we're not it's not going to work it's kind of like dogs on the beach there has to be some teeth to doing it no pun in tenant um the other is that Jennifer brought up was the fund that when these fines do happen it do we want it only to fund tootal related activities or it be Beach and Turtle Beach preservation which I'm you know I'm I'm showing my hand a little bit of what else can we be doing to preserve the beach and fund that there's we need to decide how those do we want to limit it because I don't know if we even have the right to do that you know that's a City Attorney question where do the fines go in now and are those dictated or is there prescription of how those fine funds are used or is it just go to the general account the answer is yes they do they but they're also control if it goes through the code enforcement process as you know we have a magistrate who serves as opposed to a code enforcement board and there's also a process for uh lean reductions and things like that so we would have to it's just something I'm going to have to study um you know if it's if we can put it into a specific pot related to Turtle it's called turtle turtle management Turtle protection um any any fines related to that then I'll look at that but I'm just going to need some time to figure out the enforce enforcement process for that and I really haven't personally to be honest with you read the whole model ordinance I mean this first presentation I heard but I would I'm very interested in reading it and getting their business impact stat and also their comments on our own ordinance so I can see that as well good I can make it $89 one Treasure Island by one our Turtles are better slightly related to Turtles and birds if we find the hotels who allow their guests to take their dogs down to the beach we might get some attention also just check where people are staying when they're walking their dogs all right can we move on now to our next item do we need a motion to move this forward it's a I don't know if that's a Jenny question or City attorney we need a specific motion I I took down notes I mean you could yeah one formally you could take a motion to how do you want to frame it um I also have some public comment for this take public comment do okay get some public comment lesle price hello oh good morning good morning I'm lesie price Sunset way um I wanted to uh emphasize and I'm hearing some kind of uh Illusions to that is that the lighting is such a bigger issue than just one species you know there's so much of our wildlife and our human life that's affected by how we light an area um and you talked about with like the cell phones the difference between you know the old flip phone which didn't even have a flashlight really and then today is where you come out and you see those brilliant flashlights on all the cell phones up and down the beach you know I'm not sure how we can address that but we can address the ones that we have actually mounted on buildings you know how high they are and such but again it's all the wildlife nocturnal animals aren't really getting a night cycle because it is so heavily lit dial animals are being active Way Beyond when they normally do so they are not getting a good night's sleep and we all know what it's like not to get a good night's sleep you know so it's just to me a much bigger picture um there's a lot of emphasis right now on Dark Skies as a draw for tourism as well as just the whole General eco-friendly nature of an area at a hotel it's one of the advertising I won't say gimmick but means that they used to you should come here and stay with us because we do all these things to try and improve your experience and a more natural experience to the area that you're visiting so I think that's to me the bigger is to to keep it not just individual lights but the over overall illumination of an area and the gradient of it as in when you come out of a theater and you've been there all afternoon you come out and suddenly it's brilliant you know that that gradient that the way you change from a dark to light and bright to dark does matter in overall safety and your ability just to maneuver night flying birds migrating birds really huge not to have these super bright lights that they basically fly past or into because they are just burnt by the amount of Illumination so just big picture lighting not just individual animals or just individual lights themselves the fixtures big picture of light thank you thank you L thank you that was all for that item that's all so we need to craft a motion for what we just talked about something very clear and concise would this be a motion of just what we want to feedback up to the city commission as a result of our meeting today that's I think so I'll take a stab and let's all work on it together you know I'll make a motion that we um move forward with the model lighting code from the state of the 2020 model lighting code from the state of Florida um and this is where it gets difficult we can just keep it as simple as that where then you know the process would would be you know taking the ex I don't know if the motion needs to get into the process of it versus we just say we believe we should move forward with the model well not not with the model but using it but using the model to you make a motion to use the you know move forward of using theel as a template as a template that we all agree with that because then we get in the process of how to do it I think that would maybe a motion could be and and forgive me Matthew may I don't know if Matthew has the information that the Sea Turtle Conservancy has done already but I haven't looked at it but one motion could be to move forward with analyzing the 2020 model ordinance and coordinating with with the Sea Turtle Conservancy um to see what improvements to the city codes can be made I think the city code part is very important because I don't want anybody to get the message that they think we just said oh yeah just use model ordinance and reference it like we currently no we can't do that we can't we can't just plug it in but I I I'd be interested in see what the work that they've already done on our own ordinance and then read more thoroughly the model ordinance but they clearly have a lot of expertise in this area so why uh why ignore it and I'd be happy to look at it myself and then um come back to you all and and have some additional information and if there's something in it that could be quickly plugged into the beach ordinance or something like that that you know I think that would be important I I just don't know the the analysis I'd like to see their analysis and that's how I think we could rephrase this is that we want to uh see how our current ordinances would be modified to include the recommended components from the model ordinance and based on that then we could have another meeting but we need to see that would be our request to have the action item be uh a merging of components of the model ordinance into our current ordinances red line so that we can see what we're doing if you put this on your agenda for next month right you meet monthly so I could if somebody has that information they want to forward it to me um I can make sure that it's part of our um in our in our system tracking system of the various legal services that we have um doing and have it have some kind of analysis ready and proposal maybe on how to legally Implement some or all of it can't we just say we're going to update our ordinance in keeping with what with current knowledge yeah you could do that too and this seems to be current knowledge yes yeah which is the current knowledge the the 2020 the model ordinance that they're providing with consideration with up to current knowledge with consideration for the suggestions of the turtle um Group whatever but we're not endorsing and we also no we're not endorsing we're only look look right yeah it's not their model ordinance it's actually crafted by the state my understanding right so the state's the one that implements a lot of the endangered species threatened species laws and you know so they've come up with this you know so I I think I can easily come back in a month with some some better Direction and in analysis of you know how good or bad are current ordinance is or how up to date it is and I think the point is just to update it with more accurate you know yeah and new lighting's changing all the time latest available latest available best practices yeah Best Practices science all the things that I think your language is pretty simple and straightforward you want to try yeah that was a good one yeah uh I propose that we move this ordinance forward to bring it up to date in its lighting recommendations okay for Turtles and other species I don't think we even need that but you can put that in um because it's for people too where species it's it's and lighting is uh if you lighting has to be studied for the full effect you know that's what we're doing but if we just say bringing our I propose that we we bring our lighting ordinances up to the level of the latest scientific knowledge or you could say cinematography because they actually know more uh Jen we bring our our lighting ordinance up to uh a current level of um oh God I'm I said it didn't anybody remember that yeah I think I think your motion was to uh to to look for any and all improvements to bring our current codes uh up to current to current standards with best practices and the City attorney to bring back suggestions and information at the next meeting how's that for a motion it's too many words but it'll do that's why you're the attorney want a second somebody want to Second his motion I'll make that motion okay I'll second it Jenny you need help you good I got it you're good you're good thanks Jenny I was seconded do we need to vote we do member Welch yes member Stevens yes member Panic yes Vice chair kersman yes member rothenberger yes motion carries okay and if anybody has the information that um excuse me the the Sea Turtle Conservancy provided I do please okay that to me great thank you very much I appreciate it thank you I'd also wonder if there's any scientific information that could be forwarded along as well rather than just like sample ordinances from those communities scientific information that okay you know people LIF said you know this is what we've seen when this happens thank you I always assume when you say latest information you're including science but we are in America true okay we can move on to our next action item which is discussion of shark fishing and aako are you going to no okay thank you General sorry I kind of was pushing this one I don't know if you are aware but I I do get text I get pictures of a commercial operation that is doing shark fishing on our beaches at Sunset um we worked with the sheriff's office um and our attorneys their attorneys to try to figure out how we could um handle that so they are um cutting up uh Stingrays and then they're fishing off and the the cut up stingrays are washing up South in passag Grill um after they fish so I wanted to make sure this was included as part of our ordinance it's not something we talked about from the very beginning but it needs to be addressed I did talk to the assistant City attorney regarding this and I think the best way for us to handle it because we don't want to ban fishing I think um if some of you have been on this board that was a big discussion as we started the beach ordinance that we are a Beach Community and we don't want to ban fishing um but I think how we can address it is when we do do the um commercial operations on the beach where they register with the city that that may be one of the businesses that we don't allow to do a uh permit for so um it's been we didn't get into it too much it's just been a discussion we had but I think that might be a way for us to still allow fishing but not the commercial operations such as this which I don't think any of us want to see on our beaches Jennifer are they tagging the sharks or are they actually they are tagging they are tagging them releasing tag and release okay right wait and we we saw that Deb and I saw that whole thing going on which was amazing looked into it a little bit because yes it's legal for them to do that but they all have to have a license correct and what it says in there avoid shark fishing on crowded beaches during high traffic times of the day or avoid shark fishing near swimmers or popular swimming areas which is what we talked about in this ordinance of you that's where the sheriff's can when we talked about fishing if it's not um if it harms any of the swimmers they're happening to do do it on a part of our beach that is not crowded at a time of day where it's not um so and we checked in their licenses and the sheriff did extensive work on this um we just need something that has teeth in it so that's why I'm just bringing it up if you are in agreement with that I think we're going to try to continue having that discussion with the attorneys to figure out the best way for us to curb this okay um and still allow fishing but not that type of fishing I don't think we want sharks where swimmers are that just does not make sense that was on the news this morning so our current ordinance our current ordinance draft not our current ordinance our current ordinance draft has something about fishing is legal unless the sheriff or law enforcement tells you they're concerned so that in a way could covers this partially because it's very subjective I don't know if it's a forceable but yeah they they could be concerns but but there's two aspects of this one is I think it's the chumming you know the throwing the the the it's not ching attracting sharks to the area that I think we need to have some language to say this we recognize that all of St Pete Beach is a popular swimming area which speaks to the language that I think you already mentioned that there's a law that says you can't do this in a popular swimming area whether they're swimming in it at the time or not is not really the relevant part so I think we have to be careful maybe we can put in something about avoiding uh that we recognize all of St P Beach to be a popular swimming area and and and should not be using means to attract sharks to our area I mean it seems like common sense but we don't want to attract sharks to our area and then be the the commercial language that you said so the chumming is a specific definition and the Sheriff's Office and their attorney looked into it extensively and what they're doing is not considered chumming but uh so we we it's disgusting but it's not considered chumming so I I I I got it we look through every aspect of this because I'm I'm I made my point discusted by it but something in fact I included this in some information this happened several years ago with the Bayway bridge I'm I'm one of a few people that were on the opposite side of the uh the High Bridge and we had an administrative hearing and although there were 17 parking lots for people to fish there the dot had came out with there's plenty of other places to fish within a 20 minute that's it and was gone so there does seem to be some flexibility when something makes sense like sharp fishing in a swimming area so I would just keep that in mind so are they doing it one of these prescribed locations they just showed other locations that people could fish rather than at that location so you could tell the people that are shark fishing well you can go somewhere else yeah but I I know that's that's a legal item so but we should keep that in mind I yeah okay D could I say something I've uh the commercial fishing should be banned period and we need the power to control any commercial Venture on this beach which I've said a thousand times now we could have the boat ramp problem solved if we had that ability the second thing is one of the kids from our neighborhood I live in Donar place he's between uh the public beach in passag gril and and where I live uh was fishing the other night shark fishing takes place at at dusk uh and they're fishing for bull sharks the bull sharks are in our beach and in the canals and have been but they 10 times more than there used to be because they shut down a long lining thing that was being done offshore so we have many many more bu bull sharks everybody should know that if you swim at dusk be careful the bull sharks will come right into three or four feet of water and I've was cut off once by one of the in the Bahamas um I don't have a whole lot of problem with him fishing he's fishing alone he knows what he's doing he's a resident I do have a big problem with the commercial shark fishing and that's where I think we can tackle this and that's just people looking for a picture with a big shark right well and if he is shark fishing he needs to have a shark fishing license everyone yeah does and the the neighborhood kid lets them go and buy by the way he caught an 8f footer a couple of weeks ago so beware can you imagine what would happen to the uh Hotel Community here if someone gets bit by a shark well how about if we catch we let them know we're catching 8 foot sharks right offshore I'm pretty sure the sharks are the sharks are there they're there they're all up down florid there they've always been there but but should could we should we should we or should we have something in the ordinance that says in recognition of it be a swimming beach nothing should be done to attract more sharks to the area or is that overstepping I think that would be hard to enforce I mean throwing bloody pieces of we could let them long line again yeah I think it's it's as long as you guys are for us moving forward with crafting the best language to do it that's what the direction I need for it I just wanted to make sure was a discussion cuz it wasn't when we first start talking about the beach ordinance it's been since the last six months that I feel we really need to push it so I guess if you guys want to take a vote if you want to give um our attorneys and myself to work on that we can in include it in the beach ordinance okay so somebody come up with a nice concise Jennifer does does this do it I make a motion that the the city is this what you're looking for I make a motion that um the staff looks at ways of banning commercial shark fishing on our beach yeah the best legal way and enforcable way I I would add to that am I allowed to add to it discuss yet or coming up with it I just made a motion here what you got I I would I would it's not just commercial I would add uh and and uh activities which which would encourage um sharks from being attracted to the more attracted to the area everybody knows why they're throwing the pieces of the fish cutting them up throwing them in obviously you're doing that because you want to attract the shark so I'm saying we want to discourage I would add the word and discourage activities which in would attract more sharks to the area deliberately that's fine but we're going to have whatever happens we're going to have to coordinate with council at the sheriff's office because they're going to want to make sure they can enforce it so motion is like um you know instruct staff and City attorney to work on a uh an amendment that would discourage uh attracting sharks to swimming areas and to prevent uh what commercial shark fishing yeah on the beaches I'd say commercial fishing on the beach period of any kind yeah we we just don't need more commercial activity without our control yeah I got it okay we'll come up with something so that's a motion and second yeah second okay thank you Andrew and John Mike and John okay V we going to take a vote Yes member Stevens yes member Panic yep Vice chair kurman yes member Welch yes chair rothenberger yes motion carries thank you okay okay next item dun preservation so this came uh for me and I I wrote a quick one pager and it's pretty straightforward I don't know if you know I have to add I'll add a little bit of color um you know one is there's been many conversations about seaw walls and floodings and you know those types of things but if you really think about it the what keeps the water off the island to the West are Dooms if you look at the proposed uh Beach ordinance there is one section says permits required that brought over but I think um we should strongly consider adding specific language to highlight those behaviors we want the basic fundamental protection and preservation behaviors we want not only the city to do on city-owned property but also encourage private property owners to take to manage and maintain the seaw wall of the West right what's going to keep that out and I this was uh and the other is I think you made how do we make our codes clear and concise that it's not a jigsaw puzzle to understand but something how do we put language out there that will easily be understood by anybody reading it of these the things that we want you to do and these are things we don't want you to do when it comes to a certain topic we have it for sea turtles we have it that I missed and thank you Jennifer for seabirds um I don't know how I missed that that section I think we should have a dune preservation and it's a unique timing right we're doing a new beach ordinance now but look at the investment that's being made on our Island right now in the passag grill Beach renourishment right that's millions of dollars of new sand and let's make sure that we have all the right behaviors to protect that Doom to keep the water off for the longest amount of time as well as we have a c couple conditional use permits that require Beach restoration and as they are putting new sand there we want to protect that for the longest time so that's really the problem we're trying to solve um the problem I'm trying to solve in this recommendation is um add pretty straightforward language to the beach ordinance to U make it clear of the the the the dos and don'ts but more specifically um the things we want them to be uh we want to have happen um I would be a Miss to say that I missed one point and I I believe somebody's will come up and talk about this is there's another point that we do have private property owners going in and going to Home Depot and buying plants that are not healthy and invasives to the Dune so there should be one more Point added to this about plant what you're you're allowed to plant but what are the things that you definitely do not want to plant because it'll just take over and um you know I've been educated by dun Savers and their leaders you know their leader Deb is here um that Sea Oats there's a reason why Sea Oats and sea grapes are protected um uh in Florida they're the ones that have the roots that go down down and make the lattice that actually keep the sand there so this is keep people off the dunes um keep people on paths U Get rid of the bad plants add good plants and don't B and specifically don't add the any any other bad plants so that's that's that's my what I wanted to discuss and see sure you know how do we move forward with this to make it crystal clear or as clear as possible of the behaviors we want to do to maintain both public doing and private doing so before we get too deep into this conversation we probably should motion have a motion to extend the meeting past 10:30 perhaps to 11: I think we could probably wrap this up by 11 don't you think okay yes somebody make a motion uh well I have a question because I've been dealing with Dunes for 60 70 years uh there are federal ordinances there are State ordinances no mean to extend the extend the meeting we need to extend the meeting we need a motion to extend the meeting yes I make that motion let's extend the meeting sorry till 11 o' to 11 o' great thank you 11 o' sorry to interrupt but 11:15 the clerk reminded me okay second okay uh member Panic yep Vice chair kersman yes member Welch yes member Stevens yes chair rothberger yes motion carries thank you now what you saying all right aren't there Federal uh Council aren't there federal and state laws that yes um dictate SE Behavior yeah Sea Oats and um and uh sea grapes are um protect species if I recall in the dun systems uh there's several layers of protection on them but that doesn't stop the bad behavior so I think uh you know our comp plan talks about Dune system or code talks about dun systems um you shouldn't be planting uh you shouldn't be destroying the native plants that protect the dunes exactly um you know anything we do in the dunes we have to get uh State approval for like for example a path through the dunes um so yeah but things like hiking and obviously you can't walk your dog there but uh kids play in the dunes and yeah kids will do a lot of things they're not supposed to I know they're not supposed to um so what about those rule those rules exist don't they or what John what would you add to the besides the I don't know if you saw my memo in the in the packet that kind of lay these out pretty it's make it clear stay on the p PA yeah uh you know not a day goes by that I walk on the beach I don't see footprint new Footprints or like that of people going up I talked to um our cccl representative um and asked what is best practice of people getting people out and he says yep you can put up signs but signs do not change Behavior one thing that and I I'm going to quote her that is great at keeping people off is a rope hole and rope fence absolutely that and then she then sent me the guidelines which I did include in the packet there so putting up a rope and post fence stops Behavior because you literally have to go it's a barrier it's a barrier thank you I've been saying that for two years instead of putting up a chain fence and it's Turtle friendly and it's high and we've had them if you go up to upam Beach and you go down paradise grow and you go out and you look to the right in there there is an old rope and post and rope fence we're not doing anything new um we we do that um Beach you know Beach paths and Beach path walkovers you know I had this conversation with um Aaron from the Florida Department of Environmental Protection and she's you know over time people we you see it in hiking paths what happens it starts digging into there and creating these gullies that when the water comes I totally disagree with that and let me if you don't mind I'm just repeating right you we have a dune the dune's like that if you have a hole in the Dune the water is going to come up the recommended um Florida Department of Environmental Protection is to have walk elevated walkways and walkovers on the dunes I'm just reporting back that that is what the state of Florida recommends for property owners and and for public thing so I you may not like it but that is the recommendation for Florida department environment protect I can give you Aaron's phone number if you'd like to talk to her anytime but that's that's the state at one and included in the packet was their recommendation on how how to do that um as well as uh and dun Savers is represented here is you get rid of the bad plants the stuff that's getting rid of that overgrows the good plant material and when you get rid of the bad stuff you put in more good stuff right so that's the problem I'm trying to solve here okay and part of that problem is the Florida Department of Environmental whatever it is has never been very great and the idea of putting great big uh boardwalks across Dunes has failed every place I've ever seen it and every sand Trail and ours is a perfect example in Don's our place on the south side of the dawn has not changed except the dunes have grown in 25 years sand you don't unless you have a mob constantly of people coming over a dune a sand Trail is much more environmentally sound than a big boardwalk and I can show you evidence of that all over the country uh a dune in its natural state is the best thing that we can have as protection could agree more but people watch over it doesn't make it natural it's yes we don't have we don't have that problem we have we can create that problem and put in a boardwalk uh which would be a horror it's not in keeping with the Dune at all um so you know do some real studying on this and don't I and I'm sorry I don't mean to lecture but I've been around this thing too long there's so much bad information and especially from the National Park Service and from a whole lot of other people who think they know what they're doing and yet put roads up and down beaches and close off Natural walkways and put great big ugly things in that don't fit the dunes so yes we can go two two ways a real way or a state way um what I think about this is that I don't know what all the state laws are and I guess it's not our philosophy or any City's philosophy to say you know murders illegal in our city because we know there's laws against murder so there's already laws for seots and these other things so therefore I I presume we don't need to put them in our ordinances the question is what's not in our ordinances or the state's ordinances or the federal ordinances that are missing if there's some way to identify what those things are and and call them out I I think that would be very helpful the and and the next piece sort of relates to my my next topic but I can cover it here I can cover this part here and that is that if you look in our proposal for instance we're striking out of section 25 uh permit required for Dooms um presumably because it's going to go into section 95 so section 25 is Coastal protection um my my question is should you really be deleting things that you that still are about Coastal protection and it's the same for sleeping and there's a whole bunch of ordinances like this but focus on dunes so it's being deleted from 25 and being put into 95 I I think that maybe cross referencing would be more helpful to people so that when they're looking at Coastal protection look continue to see it not think we've removed our permitting requirement but section 95 which is about the beach says hey don't forget you need to be compliant with section 25 and Coastal um and and when I look at this carefully I see that the transfer of things from section 25 to section 95 is actually not complete and for instance there's things that we have in SE in in some of our one of our sections it says you know you can't use mechanical equipment within 5et of the toe toe of the Z of the Doom it's it's being removed because it's just being deleted from 25 and Rewritten in 95 and pieces are different and I I did the comparison myself to see that so we want to make sure was that deliberate did we decide that we don't want to protect the of the Dune from mechanical equipment or is it just a scrier error I don't know um but that speaks again about your Dune concerns you know I work backwards in in my memo at the top I said this would this is not to rep replace language that's already there um I believe that the intention of the beach ordinance is to take have everything in one place that deals with the beach um if something hasn't moved from code and you know this is something the staff can look at that needs to be brought over to centralize to the beach that's there I think the intent was have it in one place instead of having to cross reference yes so I will tell you in the Land Development codes this is section 25.7 Dune preservation enhancement in accordance with uh chapter Florida statute chapter 161 which is the beach uh the the beach what do they call it uh beach in Shore preservation section um along with basically the city's comprehensive plan and this codes Dunes along the Gulf of Mexico with the city shall be protected and such Dunes will be enhanced under the provisions here in so it's a general policy I mean I I know it's in the uh comprehensive plan and your comprehensive plan is really not what's going on now your comprehensive plan looks forward and says we need to do these things and so I mean I've been all over this beach in the last 10 years and um there's some really pristine nice areas and then I can see where you know um golf front property owners have made their own little nice little walkways and some of them have in my opinion over enhanced them a little bit with papers and and uh even irrigation I've seen out there um uh stuff like that I mean to me that you know I think it could be there could be some clean up a little bit you know in in in alignment with what the intent of the state law is of course and then what the aspiration is in the comprehensive plan which is these Dune systems do protect the city in one aspect from title surges and things like that and that it's known that certain things that where there's a wake Link in the chain so to speak you know can damage you know the dunes but you know when you get certain Storm surges like the ones we experienced down in Naples and so forth there's almost nothing you could do um just rebuild them and you know make sure they're put back with Native vegetation and not um Oleanders and other pretty flowers you know because they're not going to really help you know you're right you're right about that that's why the Sea Oats and the sea grapes they're root systems are intended to keep the sand there instead of blowing away in the wind you know and yes I agree there's going to be the storm that's a direct hit but yeah uh those those do happen but not that often we get more s swiped and things like that and that's where the the doing this is important but there are hundreds of beach P private you know I hate to say private but there are hundreds of like Little Beach Walk paths that people have created and and they're very creative and lovely and they've all done different things with statutes and different they're all over the place you don't take this as a suggestion that they have to go now do this no I'm not I'm not doing it I'm just saying they want to get a permit and do that and then to your point is uh to your first point that you made before is yes there are General codes and everything all across the place but they're hard to find and they're hard to understand where doing something like this just as we did for turtle you know fill the holes in things like that this is to kind of mimic what we're already doing in the code the proposed code um to kind of here are the right things to do to preserve Turtles this is here are the right things to do to preserve Dunes so you recomending would you be recommending them to reference some I think it's done in our our other parts of our ordinances reference the statutes reference the St you know pers P yeah I'm going to let the lawyer I mean what I what I can do is bring back I can see you know Dunes there's layers of Dunes I can bring back personally just so it's not a big um chore for staff because they've got plenty to do trust me um I can bring back my legal analysis of sort of the layers of what is the city doing um with regard to Legal um preservation of dunes and you could just take a look at that and and it you know it references the state statute which is a law and um and but it also references our comprehensive plan which is aspirational and calls for adopting of codes to do things now um so I can bring back kind of a quick one pager of like here's the level of the layers and levels of um laws that the city has to uh abide by and enforce um and who the who are the enforcement agencies I could do a quick one pager and bring it back next month if you want okay that way we have a better understanding I mean because we you all know what the beach looks like up and down the beach I mean it's some areas are I mean they just things you know people want to get down to the beach you know and you know after a while these trails get you know straightened out and it's you know and hopefully I'm not suggesting and get rid of like that you and I live I live right on the the line of District three and four in your paths this isn't get rid of them this is keep people out of keep them keep people on the path keep them on the path and not not throw yeah not wandering off into the even though it's uncomfortable to get into the seals to be honest with you and especially this well that's good that keeps people out it is not a it's not fun to go walking around in there no and you get SE Sanders and all the other stuff there might be some invasive species in there that the city could address and and you know like and and start taking out the invasive species and planting the proper species and that's that's happening on public property great um there is one that I know it's actually my wife who's doing it with the help of dun saers on block &n private property I know exactly where that is so we're trying to Let's educate you know how do we get the message out it's O this is what you should be doing as a property owner and get it out in a way that it's easy understandable also enforceable um you know let's go back to people on the Dune it's not a day goes by that I walk the beach I don't see somebody on there um I think I heard a story about um sand angels y you know kids going up and doing sand angels up in the in the dunes if you go boy they better like red ants if they do that did I talked to your commissioner about this and he's been hearing up by The Secret Garden if you if you go up there there's uh fresh Footprints every day on the brand new Dunes that uh were just put in place because uh you know the emergency rep punishment this is a wide if you go out and look it's a pretty widespread problem um there it's how do we with the Investments that are REM made how do we do long-term protection and how do we encourage and point out here are the basic things you should be doing get rid of tourist would be one way get rid of sh that's as easy as getting rid of sharks we wouldn't need walks then would we well you probably only do need one or two walkovers on the whole Beach but uh yeah I think the rules rules are to keep people yeah in in the line inbound having enough crossovers is important to because that's when you start getting people being creative when they especially a tourist or somebody or even a resident they I'm not going to walk three blocks to get on the beach this looks clear um but the other thing I'm concerned about is a land grab I think we have to be careful who can be putting up poles and ropes yeah uh and I've already seen yeah it has to be with a permit because I've already seen private property literally moving vegetation to sort of block a path and make it who here's my Dune now now you can't gooss here my backyard right yeah we can't have couldn't agree more have and anything cord of the ccco you have to have a permit for everything you and in I believe the the city as well so it's not taking away anything this is more highlighted language of here the right things to do for long-term preservation okay so I can I mean you don't even have to make a motion for this you can just give me instructions I'll try to put together a one pager uh bring back to you guys and you can have a deeper deeper dive into this topic and see what you want to do that by by next month I think we mean next meeting next meeting I think is in August in August what what whenever the next meeting sorry I do have a public comment on this all right you said what there's a public comment on this item Deborah rothenberger your no related I thank you um and I'm I'm Deborah rothenberger I'm with dun it's a group that we copied from Treasure Island and we've probably put in 500 hours since January just removing invasive plants from the dunes and uh I agree so much with what John is saying about we have to protect these Dunes because people are going in them and there's a lot of disregard for them I also would like to add to what John is proposing and maybe if you're going to model some language on this to include specifically the invasive plants cannot be planted and it would be great if it could be on the Barrier Island because the plants the invasive plants that are getting in the dunes were not planted there yeah they they're getting in there by birds dropping seeds they're also getting in there because of the seeds being blown from plants that people are using in their Landscapes near the dunes and and so all of those things are getting in the dunes and there are um santel has language in their ordinance that says they have um a worst of the worst eight plants for santel our list would be a little bit different but said these eight species may not intentionally be planted transplanted or otherwise introduced in any way on Santa Bell and are required to be permanently removed as a condition of All City development permits and I feel like the city of St Pete Beach needs to do the same thing when we moved here 30 years ago they had adopted tree program and it included carrotwood trees we planted three in our yard they're planted all over the city and I'd like to see something in this ordinance also where we start up budgeting money to remove a lot of these trees fortunately we removed ours a long time ago but I'd like to see those removed from public property and why it's so important to get these in the ordinance is um the in part of John's package he has uh Florida invasive species Council and they have their list of plants but unless those plants are specifically listed as Federal noxious weeds Florida noxious weeds or Florida prohibit aquatic plants they are not regulated these are just suggestions and they need to be regulated it says they need to be in local or ordinances to be regulated by law so a lot of these plants that you see all over our city the um fountain grass asparagus fern uh invasive um Scola I would like to see these specifically listed in the beach ordinance as prohibited plants to be planted in our area and see like I say these plants were not planted in the dunes but they're widespread and unless we specifically list them in the dunes anybody can come in the hotels can plant them people right across the um street from the beach can plant them and they are um could possibly use by local uh contractors that are doing work for the city so I know a couple years ago that um Jennifer McMahon did a great thing she made it a requirement that 50% of the plantings need to be native plants which is wonderful but I think that this is another part that needs to be added that there are certain plants that are prohibited to be planted in our area so so so just to be clear I'll come back with just the legal framework of what's on the books right now so that you can have this discussion but that's a common um approach that local governments have taken that upon the requests for development you have to remove certain things I mean uh Australia Pines are a big a big one I don't see a lotan Pap yeah yeah all that yeah braan peer carrot woods but it's triggered by a request for development so you can't just say all of a sudden everybody remove everything you know like it's it's a big task a big ask but it's usually triggered by someone coming in for a request for something and then you know these these things like Brazilian peppers and things like that but I agree with you you yeah and and to have it in in the city's budget to to plan for these things and start removing them where they're on public property there's a lot on a crossover which is beyond the scope of our dun saers group to remove them they're massive um Brazilian pepper trees on the beach so thank you very much thank you could we remove plastic grass from front of houses on the beach you mean putting putting greens I'd like to someone put a putting green in a do oh Lord we have somebody to just put a whole lawn in of plastic we we have no more no more speakers seen them all no more comments everything okay same we're close to the end here and I just wanted to take a couple of minutes to share some things that we did uh last weekend the the city asked the dun Savers to help uh eradicate an area which was dead sea grapes and we did it it was quite a bit of work to do dead sea grapes dead the sea grapes how do you kill a sea grape good question but they they they were dead but the the dun saers and I'll point out too Nancy and Deb were the last people there but we got some help from a company called Jun construction they provided eight that's a people to help us we had 11 I believe and they were just fantastic young people most of us were we're not old but we're older we were older than them but they really helped a lot Mandy got a rollof for her aako got car passes for everybody it was quite a team effort to to do and uh Bravo good good job nice so thank you very much that I believe is it no we have an item D that we add to the agenda item D we did the consent in the beginning yes so see he wanted to discuss the item that I that was talked about at the city commission meeting and the city commission decided that um at least keep the beach ordinance moving forward and if it appeared at during you know let's say first reading that part of the ordinance um which I referenced was like the intensity and density issues related to uh I think behind the resorts um was not really ready yet that it would at that time you know they would have the opportunity to take that out and make that bring that forward uh in a different in a different ordinance my my Adam's a little broader than that though so I maybe we should just extend the meeting till 11:10 okay um I make a motion to extend the meeting till 11:15 maximum I'm just I'm just letting you know what the city commission did decide to do well they didn't take any action that's why the public couldn't talk it was only a discussion topic right I even tried to speak as a as a beach Steward and it was denied because it was not an action item simply acep I think the mayor just recommended you taking a certain approach yes that we can you weren't denied yes okay well I would make a motion that we extend for 10 more minutes to 11:10 second okay 1110 we to vote on that or good all in favor I I I so so what I what I wanted to to to talk about was that when we're looking at this ordinance I think it's very hard to understand what's actually changing there are spots where simply the word may changes to the word shall and legally that's a big difference one was the the city manager had the option to he they may require for instance insurance for the vehicles and now the ordinance says they shall and the proposed ordinance they shall require Insurance takes the leeway away um so it's not called out and there's a number of things like that there's sections of the dunes where just because things get deleted and then rep put in everything's crossed out and everything's underlined what I would have preferred to see or I still prefer to see is actual redlining where if you're changing the number of an item from chapter 25 to 95 because you're moving it then just change the number not delete everything because what's happened is we're unable to see and and I'm I'm looking at as a beach Steward but imagine the public or anyone else is trying to look at this and say well what's changing um I mean I I've LED you know negotiations between legal teams and you know they'll just throw it out if if it's Redline where you just you know delete two pages and put in two pages they're like we want to see what you actually change from our standard terms and and that's what I think we really need here because there's a number of cases where it would just be really helpful that we just see what actually changed and people know what they're actually changing um and then the next part of that is um cross referencing there's a lot of times where we're actually in this proposed ordinance the leading things and then putting them into 95 the same or different that's that's the first part of the issue but the second part is why would you delete it in the first place why would you remove sleeping on the beach from the standard wording about sleeping on the beach and and that one by the way is one that's missed because if you look at chapter 95 that we don't put back that it's illegal to sleep on the beach so what in fact we've done in this proposed ordinance is remove the rules against sleeping on the beach and I think it would be more clear to people that that's happening and I don't think that's intended if we would just Redline it in a more in a in another way and cross reference so for instance they removed the beach from the alcohol ordinance and and so we have an alcohol says you're not allowed to have alcohol here here and here and we're crossing out Beach and the answer is well we're putting it in somewhere else well no but you see if you look at the chapters of our ordinances some of the chapters are about areas like parks and Recreation or now it will be Beach or streets and sidewalks those are places but then there's things that are about activities like alcohol actually even Coastal protection is would almost be you know an activity type or it could be either way uh and I actually underlined or or circled each section to sort of say this is something where it's across the city and this is a location specific my point that I'm getting at is we should be I think cross referencing rather than deleting and adding a number of things about the beach so if we want to call out on the beach that there's Dune rules and there's rules about alcohol and there's rules about these other things I I don't understand why we're deleting them from the other sections that are about those things I I would think we'd want to keep them and cross reference to them and that's what I've seen other cities do it's it's not that you delete everything and say well now we have a beach section we need to remove anything about the beach from everywhere else I I I I really think that this ordinance has drafted needs to be done in a more clear way and which and which also doesn't remove Beach protection from the sections where someone might be looking at them you know at certain activities in a more General way um and then the those are the two main things but then the third one is um no I'll just leave with those two so those those are the two areas where I'm I'm asking for suggesting that we ask um you know the City attorney or legal to to re re reify the redlining in a way that people will understand what's really changed and I think doing that exercise in making a new ordinance structured that way I think you'll catch a number of things that I've seen that I'm I'm just not calling out every time so I know what are the thoughts are on that um I haven't seen it lately but my guess is that there are so many changes happening and when you're trying to bring everything into one you know I mean the intent is to try to make this more useful more use user friendly um once you start redlining everything and putting comments and everything it just becomes so unreadable that it's it's a mess and um maybe there's another way to do it with some kind of uh chart you know during the presentation of the ordinance that says this was moved to here this was moved to here as opposed to this big spaghetti mess of red lining and stuff like that because technically I think so when ordinances come through the the typical way you do it is you show strike through and underline striketh through is what's being taken out underline is what's being added in but this is this is a big undertaking and so I would imagine that it's just probably pretty messy to you know when you do your typical in Microsoft Word redlining type stuff but I'll take a look at it see ultimately you're doing some typically you have an exist if if I may you have an existing ordinance and you're changing subtracting within that geography you guys have and I believe the commission has agreed that we want to centralize this so we're taking bits and pieces out of all of that putting it all putting it Under One Roof so that's be done in two phases is what I'm trying to get at because you're you're masking everything because they're just deleting everything about the beach from the other section putting it in 95 and then you don't know they change three words I don't know that to be true but that's fine but you know that's change you know change management or document management as you're bringing language like that I'm a you know as I talked to Matthew and looked at this and it's been drafted and he hasn't touched it because he wanted to get some you know input by us you know and the commission when has and I might have missed this has a new draft come out with new language sson no there were some small changes I so so why don't why don't I do this I was under the impr was going to then take all that feedback put it in a new document then we can have a a conversation of and I'm assuming staff would do this is this is what it was this is what it's going to be um and you make sure that there's nothing this it's it's a process question I think to be helpful um when we first started if you remember we had a PowerPoint that highlighted every change that we did what was added what was taken out I think we just revisit that and catch anything that we've changed since that PowerPoint was created and that could be pror of the presentation when it does come back because yeah it gets it's it's already crazy what looking at it all so we separ at that out into a PowerPoint and went section by section and any word we changed we put in there and anything we added was put in that so we would just have to make sure we update that existing PowerPoint yeah to be able to highlight that that's a bridge document which I think yeah is different than what you're proposing but solves the problem right I'm only interested in solving the problem so I mean I I believe that that or I believe that there's a big disconnect between the right now that's okay okay right um anything else all right this meeting is a Jour Bang