##VIDEO ID:80L-mMl7Vgw## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e Pro good evening and welcome to the September 4th 2024 meeting of the city of summit Zoning Board of adjustment my name is Joe Steiner and I chair this board please rise and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance my Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the for stands naivy and justice for all thank you in accordance with New Jersey statute 10 colon 4-10 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided to a newspaper of record and has been posted here in the city hall this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times for the benefit of the interested public this meeting is being live streamed to the city's YouTube page it's also broadcast on summit's governmental Channel which is Comcast 34 and Verizon channel 30 we also take a transcript of the meeting using the video and audio so we need all speakers to utilize one of the microphones here in the room at the front please note that the fire exits are to my right your left and at the back of the room where you entered the city also has an assisted listening system to help the hearing impaired if anyone needs hearing assistance please obtain the system at the dis and return it thereafter I would ask our secretary to please call the role sure chairman Steiner here Vice chairman BL here Mr Yuko is excused Mr Nelson here miss Don here Mr Kieran is excused Mr Malay is excused Miss to here miss Cho here Mr fkins here Mr Chuli here you have a quarum you may proceed thank you uh the gentleman sitting to my right is Andy ball he is the zoning board's attorney he will be advising the board memb on matters of Law and is the key interface with an applicant's attorney Mr ball does not vote on the applications Stephanie suos whom you just met is a city employee and is the zoning board secretary she works with applicants on preparing their applications planning our agendas and keeping our me meeting minutes uh she also does not vote on the applications we also have uhe present representatives from Coler engineering and Burgess Associates our engineering firm and our planning firm and they are the experts provided to us to provide input to the board and also they do not vote on the applications our board consists of seven members and up to four alternates all members can participate in the hearings tonight but a maximum of seven can vote most applications require a simple majority to be approved before we we enter into executive session to vote on the application and discuss it among the board members you will be advised how many votes are required each case will begin with the applicant or their attorney giving an overview of the application process to date and the variances that are required we then hear from any additional expert Witnesses the applicant may have to help explain the application and why the variances are needed the board members may ask questions of the applicant their attorney and any of the expert Witnesses once the board members and the board professionals have completed their questioning the public will have an opportunity to ask questions that's not the time to tell us what you think of the application that will come a little bit later before you ask your questions we do ask that you please C come use a microphone and clearly state your name spell your last name and provide your address this is important so that the reporter is able to keep a clear and accurate public record after all of the witnesses have been heard members of the audience have their second opportunity to speak at that time you will be sworn in and you may express your opinion positive or negative about the application and then the public hearing will be closed and we will enter into what is called executive session where the board members will discuss the case and vote you will be able to listen to our executive session but you will not normally be able to participate in our discussion the City Zoning officer has asked that we remind all applicants that they must carefully read the resolution that documents the board's decisions and to pay particular attention to the conditions contained therein for example if a landscaping plan is required you must obtain one and submit it to John Linson the city's Forester if a grading plan is required you must have one prepared by a civil engineer and submit three copies along with the application fee to the city's engineering division failure to satisfy all conditions in a resolution will result in a delay in approving your application as it will cause additional work for the City Zoning staff the resolutions documenting the board's decision are normally available one month after we decide the case we are changing the agenda a little bit tonight from those of you who have been here regularly you'll not note some of the things that we're doing a little bit different but so we're going to uh handle the some of the administrative matters first you may have noticed a change seating arrangement I requested missos to randomly move people so that we'll all get to interact with each other I hope this all works out for everyone and we will move to resolutions for extension and the first one is 90 Ashwood and I believe you have the uh information and the update yes and I know Mr Weber is here for the applicants um they have requested a one-year extension to the resolution due to a lengthy State review process for the treatment works approval uh application and that's associated with a sewer extension they've also requested a 90-day extension for the filing of an amended subdivision approval to reflect that uh this is their first request for an extension uh in this matter and unless there's anything further that you'd like to add Mr Weber no nothing further good evening Mr chairman members of the board James Weber of Alonso and Weber on behalf of the applicant any particular questions for Mr Weber questions from anybody are our professionals have you had a chance to look at it and any problems okay this was from 2022 this this am I looking at that right zoning board 22- 2152 uh it was filed in 22 I believe yes de it was decided less than a year ago okay that's right that was my treatment works applications been deemed complete by d uh this August 30th they're hopeful to have that tww by the middle of October yeah the um the applicant was able to continue to be bound by all terms out uh resolution of approval memorialized on October 16th 2023 so they're just ahead of the first year and they know they're not going to make it so gotcha is there a motion so moved second okay I don't hear a second a second oh okay down Mr Nelson um roll call I believe sure Mr Nelson hi Miss Z yes Vice chairman L yes Miss tow yes Miss Cho yes Mr fkins yes Mr Chuli yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries thank you okay all right pass that one down um the next one is 38 Ascot way is anyone here for that particular extension seeing no one um okay and this is you may recall we discussed this recently in the last meeting the applicants discovered through the process of uh remodeling their home a significant mold infestation required Demolition and Remediation work they did request a lengthy extension and the board was willing to Grant a 2-year extension but not go beyond that at this point uh So currently that's what we're considering is uh their application runs through January 2025 we would Grant two years on top of that and they have been notified of our discussion and correct thoughts and had the opportunity to be here tonight and have chosen apparently not to all right is there a motion on the twoyear so moved second roll call please yes Mr Nelson yes Miss Don yes Vice chairman lyit yes Miss to yes Miss Cho yes Mr fkins no m Mr Chuli yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries okay that one goes down next one is 29 Fair viiew Avenue hi uh John Burke I'm the homeowner okay and your request is for extension a oneyear extension and now I'll just note um I guess Mr Burke can explain further um but apparently the delay was caused by flooding on an adjacent property that's impacted their construction um I'll just note as well that this is their second request for an extension it's been extended for one year on top of the original applications one year time frame already okay um I must have we what have you done U the the neighboring property is that a is that being resolved how's how's what's yeah it has been resolved so the issue first appeared uh in December of 23 when the construction began on the adjacent property behind us um high level just to Flash Forward you know 8 eight months after numerous conversations emails with City officials as well as the Builder they have agreed to remediate it right so they've erected a 8ot retaining wall they've also added some additional drainage to the property and we can now say that yes we're happy that the issue has been remediated we're no longer getting flooding in our yard um the reason for the extension request is that the Builder that we were going to use for the project is now committed on other projects and H has told us that he cannot start until next year but you're still using the same contractor we're reviewing others at the same time but ideally if we can stick with this one that we chose in the past we'd like to right have we verified all this with the city um so I spoke with our engineering department and they said that they weren't aware of the previous conditions before the construction of the property that you're you're talking about so it's a little confusing because they they said that they weren't aware of your conditions yeah so we I mean we we raised it to a number of individuals um with the town the the last response that we got was from a um just one minute I'm looking for the [Music] response what was his name just a minute I have it here sorry Sam curus I guess was the one who so he's the one who replied I don't know if he's from the engineering department or if he was replying on behalf of the engineering department he actually had been on paternity leave so I did not speak with him I what what does the correspondent say so basically so we raised it to the town and the Builder the Builder said initially said he wasn't going to do anything about it because he had complied with the engineering plans as per the requirement from the town we went to the town and Sam's response was essentially that as well he basically said there's nothing we can really do here the engineering department has said that this Builder has done everything that he was asked to do we were then faced we we're eventally told that our only option was potentially litigation against the Builder on our own thankfully it did not come to that and the Builder agreed to take additional steps to remediate that's when he put in the uh retaining wall and also change the drainage on the back of this property to Route the water to the front towards the street and where was the flooding on your property relative to in our backyard where like relative to your house was it impacting your I can show you pictures if you want but yes it was uh right up against basically our patio in the back of our house right right where the addition would go all right so we're talking about a second one-year extension this was memorialized in September of 2022 correct um and you got an extension a year ago yes okay now we have been on all of our new applications providing two years corre so for us to give him another year would bring us up to our current standard of M two years yes um and I don't think I yes sir Mr chairman I just want to what is your construction schedule going forward assuming they start in the new year I just want to make sure he's getting enough well it it likely would not be able to start until the ground thaws is what the Builder told us so call I guess call that March maybe April of of next year well but that's time to get the building permit within the year because that's the requirement not the construction nothing to be finished you got to get your building permits right it's pulling the building permit is the time frame that's at issue yeah so an additional year should be enough I'm just confused why you can't pull the building permit now doesn't have a contract doesn't have building plans you haven't you haven't drawn your construction plans yet we do have we do have constructions plans yet they're not I don't think they've been signed I think is is the term but I think if we if we we were all we were kind of holding off on agreeing formally agreeing to do it with the builder on the basis that could get the extension if we can't and we're forced into a situation to go with a different builder then we might have to switch Builders ideally I'd like to to get to get the approval to get the extension and then go with him when he confirms he's ready in April what's confusing to me is if you have an architect and a contractor that's willing to proceed you can pull the permit you could always change it in the future you don't have to proceed with them but is the architect or the contractor the issue the contractor the issue we have a second we have a second problem with the architect where he has moved out of state so we're hoping that we can still work with him but some of the new Builders we've spoken with have said that they would require a architect that's on site so we might have to switch our architect as well sounds like a one twoo so do we have do we feel we have enough time by giving him one year to get all all of these administrative things done not necessarily the construction I sure hope I sure hope you can do it in a year it just sounds like you've been through the ringer well there's always come back in a year and talk to us hopefully it doesn't come to that but uh yeah uh is there a motion on this item so moved and your motion is to Second accept the onee exension yes Mr chairman okay Mr Nelson yes Miss Zan yes Vice chairman lyit yes Miss to yes Miss chfo yes Mr feskin yes Mr Chuli yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries thank you okay um now to resolutions from memorialization Stephanie Young I think you have them I do okay 61 Woodland Avenue I believe is first the first one we have is 61 Woodland Avenue that's zb-- 2246 block 2001 lot 3 Thanos and pela Panopoulos the eligible voting members are chairman Steiner Vice chairman lits Mr Yuko Mr Nelson Mr Kieran Mr Malay and Miss Cho do we have a motion some moved okay second okay Mr Nelson yes Vice chairman lyit yes Miss chfo yes chairman Steiner yes okay the motion carries the next one we have is 25 Plymouth Road zb- 24- 2248 block 5101 Lot 8 Christopher and Lisa R the eligible voting members are chairman Steiner Vice chairman lyit Mr Yuko Mr Nelson Mr Kieran Mr Malay and Miss chfo do we have a motion so moved I'm sorry you were yeah okay and Miss Zan as well as an eligible voting member do we have a second second okay Mr Nelson yes Vice chairman lyit yes Miss chfo yes Miss Z yes chairman Steiner yes I don't see her on the resolution no Miss on is not on the resolution you know what I I had to recuse myself for 61 Woodlands the same day so it might have been confusing but I was there for the and I guess we have to edit this resolution okay I have the this is you were here we'll confirm the voting members on that and get an updated version yep please okay just to make sure well I'll take that one that's all I have to do is have the wrong thing who's next the next one we have is 42 Knob Hill Drive cb- 24-22 38 block 35 lot 3 Mark schilsky is the applicant the eligible voting members are chairman Steiner Vice chairman lyit Mr Yuko Mr Nelson and Miss toast and this is the one you all got uh with the yellow markers on it and there's a new one that we now have the updated one hopefully you've all had a chance to review the updated numbers so which is the patio 15t got it yeah you okay okay um do we have a motion moved and a second second okay Mr Nelson yes Vice chairman lits yes Miss to yes chairman Steiner yes okay the motion carries the next one we have which I believe is our last one is 24 Huntley Road zb- 24-22 43 lock 3603 Lot 25 and the applicant is Maryann Sako the eligible voting members are chairman Steiner Vice chairman lits Mr Yugo Mr Nelson Miss Don Mr Malay and Miss to can I have a motion so mov no second okay Mr Nelson yes Miss Zan yes vce chairman lits yes Miss toad yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries and I was wrong there's one more yeah gotcha I kind of wondered okay the last one we have is 556 Morris Avenue that's zb- 24- 2257 block 701 and that's Lots 1 92 93 and 94 the eligible voting members are chairman Steiner Vice chairman lyit Mr Yuko Mr Nelson and Miss Z you have a motion I'll make a motion to carry this move this okay and a second second okay Mr Nelson yes Miss Don yes Vice chairman lyit yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries okay and then we move on to the minutes of uh August 5th which we received an revised copy earlier today yes so I sent a revised copy earlier today hopefully everyone had a chance to look at it um there were just a few edits to the minutes um we can conduct a Voice vote for this but we will exclude those who were not here for the August 5th meeting which were I believe Mr feskin Miss to and Mr Kieran who's not here do we have a motion still Mo I'm sorry with that okay I'll second that okay all those in favor I any opposed okay the motion carries okay we will move to our public hearings on the U on the three applications that we have in front of us today and uh I am excusing myself from the first one and turning it over to our able Vice chair should we have all the groups come up and talk about if they're going to have witnesses and then how if they can do 30 minutes we could skip through that we can skip through that yeah sure 77 West End Avenue May the one the middle [Music] we're going to swear you in all right we'll just go with the applicants first if you can raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do and then one at a time please state your name spell your last name James fazari f a zz a r i thank you and Ryan Gro g r o SS o thank you thank you so much and I imagine you'd like to have them tell us a little bit about the application what they're asking for you want to introduce your guests and then tell us a little bit about your project yes sorry um we've never done this before as you can tell um so my name is Ryan Gro um this is my husband James faari and this is our architect um Jim remol um thanks for hearing us out tonight uh we are residents of 77 West End Avenue we moved to Summit in 2020 when we bought our house uh it's a uh one-story ranch with an unfinished B uh basement uh it's three bedrooms one and a half bath technically uh but one of the uh one of the bathrooms is in the unfinished uh one of the bathrooms is in the unfinished basement and a bedroom is off the kitchen so it's not really being used as a bedroom right now uh we have a 2-year-old son named Ethan and we're planning to expand our family so we would like to expand our house with our growing family uh we love our neighborhood uh it's one of the best parts about Summit uh there's so many kids uh our son plays with our neighbors who are the same age there are kids riding their bikes in the street and scooters and we really uh want to make our house our forever home but we want to make it a little bit larger so that it's more comfortable for our family uh we recognize there are some challenges with the stream in the back uh we've gone through some pretty extensive work work with uh Jim and with uh Casey and Keller that we retained to help us understand what's possible and what's not possible on our property given that we are in a flood zone um he's been in contact that our um contact at casing ker has been in contact with the DP um and I know we've been on your agenda several times but we think we finally have revised plans that will fit within the scope of what the D will allow us to do um so the project before you is a much reduced version of what we had originally proposed um so uh Jim will talk about some of the more specifics but happy to answer any questions great and your architex your only expert witness tonight only expert witness we do have a letter that he I think gave you from Casey and Keller that details his findings uh Mike couldn't be here tonight uh given he's going through some medical um challenges no worries okay great okay thank you so much yeah actually I do have one question yes so what happened on your property the night of a August 18th when we got all that rain so quickly yes okay that was a couple weeks ago so we have never had an issue with the stream if that's what you're asking the stream will rise pretty aggressively pretty quickly but it moves very um efficiently so whenever there's heavy rains we were living in the house during Irene I think that was that they curane a number of years ago um we did not see any water come over the stream Bank we do have a little bit of rainwater issue um by our I think if anyone's been to our property we have a a patio in the back we do have some rainwater issues there but the challenge with that is the grading of the property so if it sloped a little more down towards the stream I don't think we would have any challenges the two drains that are there are also extremely old uh there was one owner of our house before us it was built in 1954 by her laws we think um and so it's just not been updated in a really long time and we firmly believe that if we could regrade the property and potentially unclog the pipe that exists we would not have the issues that we have we get water runoff from basic street that comes down the driveway and there's a storm grate that's supposed to basically has a PVC pipe that goes to the creek it's been there since we own the house and when the stream gets higher from rain that kind of back fills and doesn't work anymore it doesn't work and since the property isn't graded correctly it the the driveway poens a little flood but um other than that the stream has never been an issue no and we have a little bit of water that comes to our basement but we also don't have French drains so we're pretty confident that if we and we've had a number of people out to assess that we're pretty confident that if we remedied that we would have no water issues thank you great wearing your architect if you could please raise your right hand do you swear airm the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do please state your name spell your last name James J ramol R a m n t o principal and owner of gr Architects Inc located in Berkeley Heights New Jersey thank you and can you briefly describe your background experience and three boards you appeared before recently yes um it's been a little while since I've been in front of this board but I've been on many boards locally in uni County and the surrounded areas um an architect since 1979 uh I have been in front of many numerous boards on a variety of architectural uh projects and uh quite confident that hopefully this testimony will'll be able to give all the board members proper uh information on what we've done today uh licensed in New Jersey in New Jersey state of New Jersey and and yes it's active thank you and then the three boards just recent appearances as examples please New Providence Berkeley Heights uh chadam the name a few local any questions from the board or would you like to accept his credentials we are willing to accept your credentials thank you so much thank you okay uh Mr rol could you briefly explain or expound upon your client's project uh touch on the zoning challenges you face and um could you also give us update on the status um within the process of submitting to db2 if you can talk on that a little bit yes I can chairman uh first of all the as as u m grao stated the uh the project was a larger project uh that was going to have an addition and expansion of the footprint of the property as well as a uh two-car garage when we dove into the the process with the DP and we realized that the unfortunately that part of the flood zone was never really identified with any specific high level of um flood elevation and it was going to be a very exhaustive process and expensive process so uh in in working with Casey and Keller who did most of the leg work on that the engineer involved uh it was determined that what we could do is what we're about to propose tonight and that is a carport a deck and uh basically that's it because there's there's something that maybe you've heard this expression permit by rule yes and there's a few there's a few rules that we're going to be able to take advantage of and I'll go through them uh categorically um I do have just to start things off I I want to put into the record uh for the board I've given everybody a copy of photographs of the property you have that in front of you and I also have a letter from Casey and K both of which I like to put into the record and uh however would that be I guess we'll call the photo RS exhibit 1A would that be A1 okay A1 and we'll call the letter from Casey and Coler um A2 okay thank you for that so brief history of the as I stated earlier while we were looking at a much larger project uh fortunately with a little bit of Creative Design we're able to fit all of the applicants information within the footprint that we have uh the carport uh is allowing them there is no D there is no garage that I think everyone may know for the photograph certainly and uh there's a desire to to at least have the cars undercover for snow Etc so uh the carport was a great example because all we have to do is put basically four footings in the ground structurally supported add that to the uh the dwelling area and that works that that solves that problem uh the deck uh as it is in city of summit requires that to be part of the uh additional coverage so that is also in there we have maybe a series of six or eight U footings that have to also be addressed there all of which are part of the permit by rule acceptance um if anyone's interested in knowing specifics of it actually Casey and Keller's letter has an attachment to it it defines each of the various uh permit by rule requirements there's a perm by rule 13 there's 14 and I think there's 16 all of which relate to uh of the allowance of that that the D will in fact allow we will still go through that process and not to mention we will also be in front of the city engineer going through whatever uh whatever drainage requirements there a large very voluminous application that the city requires but I think we can get through that after you know if this board accepts this particular application so with that said uh let me just summarize for the record and also put on the on the record uh we currently are looking at a property with all all in we're looking at a the total coverage of I'm going to go to my I'm going to go to the application if you don't mind I have my notes Here I want to make sure we have covered the the proposed total coverage uh is 3,991 it is currently 338 Square ft so there's a a total increase of 683 that will put us over the grading requirements so we will be submitting a grading plan and Casey and K will be doing that as the uh as the engineer here and taking care of that as as Mr pizari mentioned is that uh with some great we we do show on our drawing and we we will remove that we do show a new um 6-in pipe that we thought might be the appropriate thing but we understand that that's going to involve another D approval so we're going to pull that out of the application so everyone knows that and we're just going to regrade the property regrading is allowed through a swell it gets us Downstream so it goes from the the Westerly side of the property downhill and then to the right side of the property or easterly side so we'll be able to flow all the water in that direction as Mr fazari mentioned earlier um that said we are seeking variances for the following uh there is no uh no enclosed parking currently we're going to be seeking a variance for that there's no permitted car ports uh and we'll be seeking an a uh an variance for that the front yard setback is currently 35 ft allowed or permitted minimum required and we are currently at 29.71 and we're not planning to extend that further but that's what the existing property is uh the left side elevation the left side yard is 15t required we're at 1308 we're not planning to change that uh and on the right side another 15 ft is required and the proposed car port uh will be at 8.92 so that that's another variance requirement and then the total side guards required is a 35% maximum allowed we're at 24.4 as a result of those sidey yard setbacks uh for that perspective there is also a shed proposed and since we're not getting a garage we're going to put a 100t shed to the rear which is noted on the revised drawings that hopefully everybody has I'll speak to that in a minute when I go over to the drawings for summary and uh and that's B that's basically in terms of the overall variance requirements uh as far as the um the I'd like to speak to specifically to the staff requirements there were several of them uh everyone hopefully has a copy of it in in your uh packet uh the the more specific ones the the uh I want I'll speak to the zoning uh as as since that's the one that's the most voluminous and it just identifies the most important things that we also received copies from uh the the engineering department Colliers as well as as uh the zoning which I both are call your representative if I'm not mistaken am I correct in that assumption one's one's NE it says neg that is neg okay wasn't sure that's what it says here okay uh we have no comments from the chief of the police which would be obvious there are some comments for uh from the construction official but those will happen during the construction document phase and all easily be dealt with uh the city Forester talked about the trees in the area and the fact that the uh the the we Lo we located trees just recently it's on your documents there and uh we will not be dealing with any he tree removals we'll just place the uh the fork posts or whatever we need to support the uh the shed uh very simply within that that area no comments from the health department uh the historic preservation uh Department pretty much had no comments CU it's not an hysteric Zone and environmental the environmental commission uh spoke to the the comment briefly I can locate that just for a moment uh let's see yeah they talked about drainage mitigation of heat island effects Etc the things that we typically would expect um environmental considerations and we'll be dealing with that as part of the construction document phase of the job so i' like to go back then to the uh the comments that were made by uh Miss uh RAF uh regarding the uh the this is an application that she had made sub submissions on back in 2023 where we first submitted the documents but then subject subject to it being reduced we wound up uh reducing it and some comments were made that are bolded up in her comment specifically item number six is uh talks about the shed and the rear covered patio and that that just identifies that it's that's what's been changed in the from the prior application item number nine specific specifically talked about some inconsistencies with the uh with the calculations from one drawing to another we have since submitted the drawings that you have in front of you the two copies that that hopefully corrected all those items U and it said it appears that imper coverage is over 300 Square ft which of course it is and we're handling that with the storm W of mitigation uh that we actually show on our drawings as another piece of the uh documentation uh as far as the flood management requirements as I had mentioned earlier we will be speaking to the city engineer and making sure that we comply with all the things that are relevant to uh for for the city of summit's uh uh flood management uh application because I think we'll be able to solve the D like I said through the permit by rule requirments um what I what I'd like to call your attention before I go over to the um to the boards and and Final my my submission is I want to review um uh the photographs that I submitted that's that's we're calling that A1 and uh what I like to do for all my applications is just what you see in front of you and that is submit the proposed design and then show the existing conditions not only of the house itself but the surrounding areas and how we believe that the application and what we're proposing would be consistent with the neighborhood and that we're not planning to move any any of the building forward the street even though because we are seeking a uh small front yard variance given the existing location uh the just for what it's worth I think it's some of it the documents are pretty obvious but we'll start with the uh the upper left hand and work our way around clockwise upper left shows the left side of the property uh the the one to the right of it is the front the front of the house one to the right of that is the rear of the property you'll also notice that these were shot at various different times of the year uh because this Project's been ongoing in in our office for a couple of years now uh the one to the right is the right side and that's the driveway side where the carport is going to be located and uh you could see if you look at the front if you look at the excuse me if you look at I just noticed one thing that I apologize for looks like I have two right and left side elevations so that I missed that part but we'll show we we'll show you that on the the larger application because I I apparently that's the case um then to the the we'll call it the right side application that is viewing the the property that house next door to 277 uh looking down the street so it's a fair distance away from their property the that going forward you'll see the the the lower right we'll call it the we'll call it photograph number uh s seven that is the or number six excuse me that's on the right side that just shows the left side of the property and how it relates to the property to the left of U 77 then following across the the right lower right and the lower left are two stream shots just to give you a sense of how the stream relates to the property you'll see it obviously this was done a year ago and uh under normal circumstances and as as uh Miss Gro testified uh their property is never the property is never the stream is never overflowed on their property specifically um and and the other thing that make a footnote to that is that the property is a trapezoidal l piece of property but it also only about 35% of it because of the way that the the stream affects and bisects the property only 35% of it really is we'll call it buildable if you will uh the balance of it is is wooded and it butts up against I believe uh New Jersey Transit uh lines from there the two Center shots in the bottom just show various locations of the rear yard one to the lower left is the one that addresses the uh the rear yard looking out towards the uh the stream and then the one to the right is from the left side looking at the tree structure where the um the the shed will be located and then following up the the last two images on the left side is showing the left hand property adjacent to uh to 77 uh as it relates to it and then another where is more of a street shot down uh West West uh West Avenue so that you can see how how the properties uh run together so that's a that's a quick overview of the photographs I want to see if I can slide over to the the the images and then go through that and then that'll for finalize my [Music] application I brought with me both the the current proposed application which you uh the drawing which is a T1 sheet that is in front of you um do I need to put that in as an exhibit because it's Rel okay so we'll call that A3 since it was submitted uh just this week and that that satisfied the various requirements of uh the uh the engineers report that was sent to us back on 823 last week it does show uh the AC units which was a comment that requested it shows uh we we adjusted the shed a little bit because once I had the tree located we had to make sure that we can we miss the trees uh and by the way this is not a survey I did take uh I did take measurements of the trees so they're approximate but they're fairly accurate relative to where they're located on the property the trees in question um we have the the car port shown as a shaded area the deck is in the rear also shown and we are doing a wraparound porch which you'll see in the images that we have uh going forward so we're calling that A3 A4 is going to be what we're calling sp1 which identifies more specifically and this would be we're going to call this A4 and this identifies various things like the property survey itself it talks about what we're demolishing on the property and then it gives for definition to what the proposed uh grading plan is going to be this is my version of the grading plan but we're going to we're going to seek the uh that detail from uh casing pel in a more technical way CU that's I think your requirement 200 200 for property owners we we did re uh we did re notice because of the time frame uh and uh the applicant actually did these notice this time around because I was on vacation that week so that was taken care of so that covers the that covers the summary of that um this was the former One Step that by okay so now now these are documents that you have and have been on the record uh this is the A1 sheet which is the we'll call this the the foundation or the basement sheet because it identifies the where the column locations are where the deck uh footings will be and how the lower level sits there there is an existing uh portion of the home that is actually on columns that's part of the kitchen projection which will remain we're just going to reinforce the The Columns with a more appropriate structure to make sure that because it's handling the Second Story over the top of that uh there is there was a half bath there now we're going to make that full bath down below and we are going to finish the entire basement and put another uh Su pump in that area just for additional uh support and and Confirmation uh the first floor as as you'll see uh shows the the stair going to the second floor the kitchen pretty much remains where it is we just opened up the plan so that uh it gives a more common flow to the property and the uh the deck will have two locations one uh off the kitchen and another one off the family room and this space here we're calling that studies SL uh studies bedroom because they if there's an event that we do need another someone else that comes in but uh it'll just give give the opportunity to be an either or the living room stays where it is the dining room stays where it is and then this L-shaped covered porch gives a little bit more of a architectural uh uh architectural field to the property also we are adding another stair uh by the way I might add we're not actually adding additional um impervious because there's an existing stare that that we're just going to re repurpose and utilize so we don't have we're not adding any footprint because that obviously triggers a potential uh D requirement so that's the first floor second floor is a series of four bedrooms be a after primary Suite here and then three bedrooms a hall bath and a small no I guess no we we actually in the larger scheme we did have a laundery area but we eliminated that because of the uh the reduction in the foot rate so that that's the second floor very simply and then lastly the now I'm showing you A4 which shows the front and right side elevation front be the two-story element the chimney that's there now will remain will just be raised to accommodate whatever building requirements are you'll see the the small shed roof and wrapped around the covered porch this shows the U the carport architecturally it's very simply done to be able to to uh to keep the cars from getting wet and or snow snowed on and on this side we have the right elevation this is the right view of the of the carport and the wraparound p as you can see then finally the a 4.1 sheet shows the rear elevation with the car port to the left and of course the the left side elevation which I showed twice on my photographs but uh that's what would look like in it's finished product so that that's pretty much the summary of the of the application as is I'm certainly open to any questions that the board has but that's the that's the end of the formal presentation thank you Mr Ron uh we'll we'll have questions from our board professionals um from the board itself and then from the audience so I'll open up to the board of professionals Ed Mary do you have anything you want to ask of this witness sure thanks um so um since this is going to need a greeting plan and I I know maybe this is a Casey and Keller kind of question but um what kind of drainage facilities are going to be on there is there in a seepage pit um what are they planning on doing um actually yes let me let me go back over to the drawing sure we we were while we don't have it on the application the thought Pro the problem we go back to this the process would be it's either going to be a a trench drain that will either follow the line of the existing 4-in pipe which kind of makes sense assuming we can get the pipe to flow to the to the stream um and if not that it's it's going to be some form of seepage pit or detention drain typically when I do the design I usually do it with a trench tray but we'll we'll it'll be we we'll be working with that with caseing Keller on that and of course they'll work with the city engineer to get that accomplished okay so um and one of the things that happens generally and I don't know if the board understands but um when you're putting in a seepage pit and this gets done by the board um the city engineer doesn't usually review the seepage pit design so that would have to be re reviewed by me but there's no mechanism for that to happen for it to come back to me so um so it's a little difficult for you guys to put that in as a condition of approval for me to take a look at it once it leaves here um so that I don't I don't know how how you want to handle that but um that's what I've been told by the city engineer that we should be that you should be reviewing those I should be reviewing it but the problem is is that after it leaves here and you guys go through your resolution it doesn't come back to me for review on a residential application so I I think we can make that just a clear condition of the application that the the grading plan or is there additional particular plans that you'll need to see well yeah I mean it would have to be the the drainage the dra a drainage plan will be submitted to the board engineer for review and approval 100% okay can can I um Can Can I can I say a few things we're going to oh okay it has something to do with what um she's talking about sure um and the reason I know this is because I um I owned my grandfather's house at 107 westl up until 2008 and I went through similar things with the uh because I was thinking about moving there selling where I'm at moving there turned out I didn't do it but I had to go through all this D stuff and what I found out is if if any of this property is in the flood plane as far as I remember them telling me you're not allowed to do any kind of water delineation that's in the flood plane so if do do you know how much of this property is in the flood plane is it all in the flood plane is the front of the house because the the flood plane when it was explained to me runs different points going through that whole West End Avenue so some houses the front of the house is in flood plane some of them the rear of the house is in the flood plane did um do you know exactly what part of this house sits in the flood plane well I I can I can only speak to it in general terms because when we went through the process of trying to determine what the high flood elevation is is I think in Summit it's an extra foot or two above what the the EP allows if I'm not I don't think that has anything to do with the flood plan uh well it it kind of does because we couldn't we couldn't do what we wanted to do unless we went through a very exhaustive design analysis Etc uh with the D so to try to answer your question is that I don't have a high watered level elevation because that this this area in in at West a has never been mapped recently so with that said uh well well that that's what I'm that's what I'm that's why we backed off what we did because it was when when those when that flood and I believe I think they told me it was around 1975 when they when they put these properties in the flood PL so what they did is they don't do a survey on each property when they designed that flood map it was just everybody was in the flood plane and I know there's a maybe one or two houses that are in their area who had them removed from the flp plane by doing some uh you know elevations submitted to the state and they were removed from if you could talk into the mic please we have a Loma from FEMA that basically when we bought the house confirmed that it wasn't in okay I think I think your address might have been one of the two that was we have it here so if it's not in the flood plane then there should be no restriction on you from doing the garage as opposed to the carp it is in the letter says the whole house is in the flood zone this letter today yeah so uh and and just to be clear I have not seen that letter so I have not R so this can I because there are some houses on that street that were removed from the flood plane well there engineer letter to land surveyor today says the places the house within the flood Hazard area yeah so just I just want to clarify what that means because I think what you're saying is if you're in the flood Hazard area a seepage pit is not allowed basically even grading even grading the engineer had recommended the grading and doing a what is it called swell a swell we'll create a swell toow doing a pipe as Jim had put in the plants but you have a LMA that says so this LMA was we were given this when we bought the house yeah this is one of the reasons for buying the house cuz when I went when I went through this I I know there was two or three houses up in your area where they had gone through an engineering survey submitted it and they they had submitted that and then a number of houses kind of tacked on and gotten this to but this is um so if if if you have a Loma releasing you from the flood plane you're not restricted on what you can do yeah I think that's um something that here here's my concern and I I feel I feel bad for you guys everything that we need to see should be submitted to our Engineers that's correct otherwise you know we rely on our professionals have you seen a copy of this LMA this um so this is supposed to be submitted to the town so this when it was this application I that comes from the state that L comes from the state yeah M Mike our engineer did not say I was relevant I would respectfully disagree with that well given that njde was the one with the issue it seems to me that they're not they're not considering that to beeds they have newy D well so not quite they each have their own areas of what they deal with and DP if they are determining it to be a flood Hazard area which is its own separate set of regulations and they say that you know you cannot have a garage or can I have any particular structures that what I understood was that they had kind of two separate jurisdictions which got us in this Whirlwind of figuring out okay what does FEMA say we're in and then what does the ngdp say we're in and what are the requirements for both because with that form there you don't even need to have flood insurance so and yeah we don't have flood insurance so flood insurance and flood Hazard areas are you know that the flood Plaines versus flood Hazard area they're two different designations so just keep that in mind and keep in mind that they their application is subject to the D's jurisdiction over the flood Hazard area so nothing we can say can absolve them of the obligation of getting approval from D document that does through this that says it's a flood a FL remember that garage it was she also had a Loma that required her not to submit to d right or require a permit um because I even had people from the state come down to when I was at 107 and he's got the he's got the golden document right there that releases him from everything his property is not on the're getting the issue is uh do we do we hear the rest of this case based on the variances that they're seeking right so and but understanding that their project was reduced in scope because of their interactions with njde which I think this document might I I don't agree with that this is from FEMA and it's a letter of the FEMA's map amendments but fma's maps and FEMA's flood plane Maps don't necessarily have to coincide with D's designation of flood Hazard areas and so they FEMA may say it's not technically within their flood plane D's still going to say you have to comply with our flood Hazard area if it's within the flood Hazard area and that's my understanding of what the applicant is telling us tonight that their engineer has determined it's in conjunction with d it's within the flood Hazard area so they're stuck complying with that now if the board wants to see additional documentation to the effect that or potentially additional engineering testimony that it's within the flood Hazard area and they're Bound by those regulations we can ask that they provide that but this this doesn't answer answer that question I the one question I have is whether or not they're allowed to do the greting in the backyard because based on my review of the site plan the front yard may not be for this letter from Casey Keller outside the flood Hazard area but I'd like to see testimony or raing plan for us to be able to say yeah you can do what you want to do I think the design given the constraints you figured something out that was pretty interesting but this I don't know how you comply with the grading and that without seeing more information and well that's something else to keep in mind too is that we can approve what they're asking for tonight from a zoning perspective if the board wanted to go down that route but D still has to sign off on a d compliance perspective if D ultimately says no you cannot grade it or you cannot have a trench then they can't proceed with the application because it'll be in violation of D's regulations so just understand that that D's jurisdiction is above this board it's not something we can necessarily address and it's a separate requirement that you comply with those so it it's not something we have to condition um you know conjunction with the D application they can proceed separately with that but they're doing so at their own risk that D will say no and then they've wasted their time here before the board and and just to be clear we need the grading plan because we are adjusting 600 more than 300 ft of impervious coverage is that right it's the dist disturbing or disturbing which the deck includes so the reason I'm okay so we the steps would be checking with Casey and Keller to confirm with the DP if we can do anything with regards to grading and if we couldn't then would be detered if there's another alternative yes well you did say that you were planning on doing grading right in the very beginning so and I imagine that Casey Keller has confirmed this with the DP already he's seen this design we seen the design yeah and he Rec and he recommended the grading and the swell so he said that was permissible if I if I might also just add in in an email that U Mich LZ of casing color sent to us with this attachment he indicated that we cannot put the pipe in so that I didn't even put that into the I I stated that earlier but uh he said you can grade create a swell a natural swell to allow the water to find its way to the stream that that was the way he was planning to approach it with a grading plan and subject to of course the board's uh review and approval that would certainly be something that would be in the resolution as as a requirement before we go any further in addition to whatever other uh requirements are requested by the board all right so we're going to have to assume that any and all grading drainage is going to be compliant with whatever DP requires whatever the city engineer requires well so what we would do is we would require for example grading plan to be submitted to city engineer drainage plan to be submitted to our board engineer and we can still grant that application we don't have to assume it's compliant with the EP it they have the obligation of going to D and seeking any D approvals for this application if D says no then they're back to the drawing board and they would have to come back before the board to seek any other amended approval from a zoning perspective okay I and you know one other thing was the um and I think Stephanie and I had gone back and forth on this and I don't know if it's been um finalized about a um getting a flood plane permit from the city the from the flood plane administrator do you know if that was has that been discussed or not yet well I mean doesn't that happen after if this gets approved doesn't that happen after that well it it would normally happen it normally gets screened for um for the flood plane before it comes to the board um this kind of got caught in a little glitch no it it actually it was um the city engineer has seen it oh good so yeah so he is aware of the application um and he he did um I spoke with him briefly today over email or maybe it was a few days ago and he did agree that this is in a flood plan so you have you do have to go through all the appropriate approvals um he mentioned there being ways to um I guess you would have to provide evidence if you believe it's not in a flood plane that's what he's got right there yeah well and again let's not confuse flood plane with flood Hazard area and right it is it is the applicant's intent to comply with all of the required City criteria uh as as stated earlier so uh again we won't be able to file for a building permit until all those other items are in fact uh addressed and agreed to and approved by the city of professionals okay Mary do you have anything else for this W yeah I'll just continue on with some other things unless we're we have any more we wanted to talk about with that is that all right um what um I noticed that there's some gutters on the carport where would those gutters be going to those gutters uh depending on what we're permitted to do since everything was running downhill the street is higher than the than the property and the grade they will be going eventually find their way to either the existing U either the Swale and or the existing drainage that's that's on the property right now there there are two uh catch BAS that are there and as Mr vizari mentioned uh ones at least at the very least is partially clogged it see the dra the property seems to drain properly as as he had said to me uh when there's a relatively modest rainfall heavy rainfall does back up a little bit so it just takes a little time to get there but eventually does find its way to the stream because there is a there is an outflow pipe that's been there for years so when those downspouts come down the side of the carport are they discharging to the surface or are they going to be piped underground to somewhere well we're going to we're going to whatever ideally we'd like to pipe them underground but they have to be piped someplace that's still compliant with both the D and and the criteria so and everything is flowing in the direction of the rear property so we just the the regrading of that will will accommodate that and if for some reason we need to place some kind of a drain within the footprint of the uh the pavement which is really where it would go uh we're attempting we're going attempt to either outflow that to the swell or outflow it to the existing drain that's that's in the uh that's in the patio area currently okay um okay so I I guess there's a few subject to so okay great Mr chairman thank you um my questions go back to the issue of the flood Hazard elevation it seems that and this is the first time I've seen this correspondence from Casey and Keller exhibit A2 it identifies that the home is within the flood Hazard elevation area so therefore regardless of whether or not we had that exemptions uh for the permission of that I believe and correct me if I'm wrong I don't want to make any assumptions but I think you're proposing the carport the carport and the lack of enclosing two parking spaces are probably the most important of the es that I'm seeing here um and so the issue I think the Board needs to hear about is that I think you're trying to propose that you have essentially a hardship on the property as a result of the flood plane and I can't put words in your mouth I would need you guys to uh I guess opine or comment on that but if that's the case then I believe this letter offers some expert uh determination of that by Casey and Keller Michael lonz of probably need a sign and it's signed but not a sealed copy of this document uh the board could ask for additional testimony from that expert if they felt that that there was questions regarding that um but I guess my first question is this more of a hardship application or are you proving that the benefits outweigh the detriment I I'll speak to that I well first of all the hardship is is the property and and the the flood plane uh if you go to that A2 uh letter which of course you're getting for the first time page two or page 63 of that uh you'll go to a permit by rule number 14 construction of a partial open structure uh authorizes the construction of a one or more partially open structure with roofs such as a carport covered patio uh pole barn etc etc with items the structure is not located within the assuming that in met n the structure is not located with the floodway the structure is not in closed with walls or any other uh flood area design flood elevation the roof is supported solely by poles in this case four columns uh and is in or C delever with other structures the footprint of all structures and uh constructed under the permit by rule does not exceed 5,000 square ft which it does not uh number five no fill is placed in the flood Hazard area except for the poles themselves that were planted just simply uh excavate four columns in the existing uh asphalt footprint that's there now uh and then lastly any clearing cutting other removals of repair and Zone vegetation is limited to uh actively Disturbed areas so in your opinion this is not within a flood way a flood way of the street that that is what I believe Mr uh L ofama has has he hasn't St that in his letter but it's it's it's clear that's where why this is why we think we could build what we're proposing build as a permit by rule it seems historically that that's probably the case if they have not seen flooding impacting that area as a result of the flood way itself the board may know the difference between the flood plane and the flood way the flood way cannot be blocked at all with anything that's the most critical area for flooding that has to occur the flood plane does have these other permit by rule adjustments that are permitted and I'll I'll defer to your board engineer with regard to those details but from a planning standpoint what I was asking the questions about is to make sure that the board is hearing whether or not this is a hardship variance where particular condition specifically for a piece of property applies in this instance and I think that's what the applicant is proposing to the board um in addition to that um what I was going to ask is that can you talk about the location of the carp uh as far as where it is on the property and its relationship to the neighbors neighboring property something of that nature in order to give the board detail on that I certainly can um I'm going to go back to my drawing over there which identifies it everyone should have a copy of it I'm drawing the T1 uh the Shaded Square to the right or to the east of the property uh is where it's actually going to be sitting on top of existing asphal pavement so we're not actually amending we have a slight a small piece of asphalt we're adding to it just to be able to get both cars underneath the the carport and of course the sidey yard setback was one of the other things that we talked about which is a variance which puts it at the 8.92 Ft off the right side or or Eastern property line but it's position on the lot is back towards the rear of the building set back towards the rear of the property I can give you dimenstion if you needed it's not on this joid but I could certainly scale it's back a good 15 or 20 ft for the front of the of the house okay um is it attached to the house uh it will be attached Vis of v a roof because we want to make sure that when they exit the car and we go up the steps or into the house there's a cover from the carport to the existing U existing home just for simple rain and and nor snow and looking at the right side elevation that's provided on she A4 yes uh can you talk about the relationship of the cardboard to the front yard and the grading Rel relationship okay you'll see on great4 the right side elevation you'll see a one-story gabled structure which is the gable roof to complement and and uh complement the architecture of the existing and home post home and you'll also see a uh a set of stairs that goes up and that'll be undercover as well that goes up into the covered porch that's the way to get around to the front door there is no other access to that even though I think there's a door shown there but that's going to be removed you we talked about that um the the you're you're what you're obviously seeing is uh carport and items Beyond there's a piece of the uh of the deck beyond that you'll see the stairs coming down from the deck but for the most part all of that what you see there is the is the cboard itself is a simple gable roof structure with a a flat structure ceiling above it and how does this relate to the street as far as the elevation is concerned it's lower than the street it's lower than the street um there while these I I I eliminated the elevation lines here we do we did do an assessment of that but the the street line you can see it gradually going towards the rear and that's the way the the the actual uh grading plan would show certain elevations that might be helpful from that perspective but it definitely dra goes to the rear of the property from the street down during your testimony you addressed the environmental commission's letter you had indicated and I was just trying to make sure it was this was clear for the record that you'll deal with some perviousness of some of the pavement is that a proposal at this point that the board's consider um actually actually the in essence because we're putting a roof over top of existing asold we're sort of swap in impervious coverage if you will um but we weren't planning to do any particular perious okay for the record we're not planning to do any perious uh uh payement unless the board sees fit otherwise I want to make sure that was clear that's correct you also identify there's no tree removal that's what okay thank you that's the question just uh touching on that along those lines can you elaborate a little bit more about any negative impacts at this proposed carport will have on any of the adjacent properties um perceive negative impacts to the neighborhood or reasoning why the board should uh we Go's I'll do that soon as I get this thing to tighten up there we go okay thank you be fair you repeat the question certainly can you just elaborate a little bit more on any potential negative impacts or your opinion on lack of negative impacts that this carport would have on adjacent properties um and how it's reconciled with the fact that carports are prohibited under the board's uh or the city's ordinances well U if if this weren't a flood zone area we'd be looking at a a two-car garage but there also a front loaded two-car garage and many of the properties in the neighborhood if anyone knows that that area uh most most homes in that area have front loaded at least one car garages some are some actually have two that that are in fact U recessed and detached but from the negative perspective we believe that since the since the carport is in fact uh towards the rear of the property as well as the neighboring property to the east they're they SP there's quite a distance between uh the fazari property and the next door neighbor and in fact their particular driveway and and and garage is actually in the of the property as it turns out so I don't believe that what we're proposing will have any any negative impact to the neighborhood at large because it is in fact recessed and set back so as you drop up and down the street all right thank you uh we'll open it up to questions from the board um I have like a very basic question I think is really for for for our attorney um I don't recall having been in a flood Hazard area provision before could you please walk us through permits by rule so yes generally the permits by rule as it's been explained they allow normally if you within the flood Hazard area you have to apply to DP and obtain a particular permit for whatever you're proposing the permits by rule allow for basically exemption where D will sign off without going through the formal application process you no longer have to obtain a formal permit uh as long as you comply with those limitations there so but if you stray outside of the bounds of the permits by rule D will say you're illegally acting or contrary to the regulations and then they can take enforcement action and then I'll just reiterate one of the terms and conditions of our resolution is the fact that it all other outside governmental agency requirements still apply you're still bound to apply to the state in this case to make sure you comply with the D's flood Hazard area regulations so it we're in no way granting them relief from those requirements if they are asserting that D is willing to allow this within the per by rule exception then that's the D's PR and the permit by real exception then also does not allow them to do certain things because they're in a flood plain area that we otherwise wouldn't allow them to do correct it it doesn't supersede our zoning requirements right okay meaning our zoning still our zoning yes we're not forced to accept something because it falls within permit by rule if we find that the zoning criteria have not been met okay thank you um how far off the ground is the deck going to be what kind of clearance will there be under it approximately five feet okay not high enough um okay which of gr will meet all the criteria as far as as far as rail Lanes Etc that are building right right right no that that I was I was hoping to be able to go somewhere else but I can't can you can you say that how high 5T 5T 5T above yes according this is calculated for my uh quarter scale plan um I'll say I'll say approximately five people certainly no more than six okay so I'm just trying to picture when you come out of the first floor is there a step down oh there's yeah there's actually on Droid A4 A4 sorry a 4.1 there's um and and maybe the photographs will help that too there's a stair that comes down from that point because there there isn't there is an elevation change from the back of the property uh where the where the de is going to be there actually about another P 18 in to uh let's say less than 2 feet uh so that we have a a stair that comes right down to the existing patio why mean coming out of the house is level with the with the first floor I were to come out yeah it might be 46 in lower just because I do that typically for if you look at the drawing this one the back of our house this first floor be level with the first floor there's a significant drop first floor yeah I was I was at the site I just try to picture the it's almost like another floor and what else U on your the proposed grading plan I don't know which number it is sp1 sp1 where was it where does it show on here where the Swale is is that what this to the right of the shed is that well the swell has not yet been designed it's that's it's sort of the architect's creating plan but we're planning to propose because of okay try again uh since we we did an what we call an architecture grading plan we're going to have our engineer do a more formal grading plan that'll be reviewed by the by the city engineer But to answer your question where the location is going to be we're going to probably place it along the easterly side of the uh of the property on the property of course between the shed and U the fence line there and eventually find its way to the uh to the street wouldn't that be the West side though am I mistaken well North North is up so I think oh did I say East you did that's I think it's East okay so it be on that side this side east side because the property actually slopes it's it's kind of a flat property in this in the rear yard there is definitely some if you look at there should be some they go to the SP where the grades are shown actually uh there are several if you follow some of these are upside down I apologize it's the way that the survey are prepared it but you'll see certain grades so between the carport or the the the back edge of call the Northeast edge of that will be eventually finder swell to the uh to the dra up to the street so um I I just had a question about and this you may not have the answer to this Maria May um but just because as was mentioned before typically when we see these plans we do have the storm water management plan we do have the Swale we do have the landscape architecture plan that's generally part of this um we don't have it and it's a little bit of it sounds a little you know rough right now that it actually hasn't been planned um although you knew you had a requirement for storm water management you just didn't come and present that to us and earlier you said that you had it but there's it sounds like that plan hasn't actually been um developed yet so the question I have because you mentioned possibly a trench drain possibly a seepage pit is are you even allowed to have a trench drain that directly discharges to the stream like typically that's not storm water management just sending off your property to somebody else's it's typically managed on the property so you know I just want to have a little bit more and I I just want to say that for the record because I know this plan is supposedly coming your way Maria well that and and I I completely agree with you which is why I was saying that the city engineer doesn't generally like to have that as a condition of approval because it it's there's not the mechanism for it to come back to me so if you were to say in there that you know subject to my review of the storm water management you know there's there's still a lot of of unanswered questions about is that Swale allowed to go into the into the stream I mean I you know I I touched on that in the letter too um I don't know if they're allowed to you know change their pipe that's in the backyard I don't know if they're allowed to use their roof run off and just put it into the stream in the back I I I don't know if they they're going to be able to get permission to do that they might but I don't I don't know that um and the same thing with the with the seage pit I I don't know if the seage Pit's going to work you know would they have to come up with some other solution um that is it's a it's a big unanswered question at this point I would just mention that almost every house on that street drains into the creek they all do that might be historic though not going make go do something now but if somebody is looking to change something it's it you know there might be some restrictions by the D on that I I I agree with what's being said going to bring that up cuz I forgot that's what we originally talked about when you had your report that then we went somewhere else um I'm a little concerned about that can May address that the board just for to respond to to u m bruffy's comments um the the seepage pit would typically not drain directly into the stream because I don't believe that's permitted uh my original design architecturally speaking was to put a a new 6in line uh to be able to capture all of that drainage but that was Mr Lanza stated we can't do that with that by rule okay so with that said uh what we're going to do is prepare create a swell as I discussed on the easterly side and whatever detention that we need in terms of seepage pit Etc we can always outflow the seepage pit into the swell then eventually find its way when when it gets to that level of of uh of fill if you will um and that that's how that would occur that's why that would be my architectural uh position um that will all be addressed by Mr lonza and I'm sure that'll be done in compliant with both state Andor City requirements so you know and I and I appreciate that right now what's going on is there's a pipe that's going down there but I also hear that it's doesn't always function properly and um and you know putting a a Swale in sounds like a great idea but that could cause you know significant erosion to the stream um you know without something to mitigate the energy that's coming off of that that amount of water that's coming from a you know a 3-in storm so um or a 5- in storm like we had a few weeks ago so there's you know there's concerns um about the kind of design because it is a bit of an unknown and um you know it would be good if there was some plan from the engineer for us to be able to review and comment on well it it it will be imp empirically calculated properly as as is noted and while the mechanism doesn't necessarily get back to your department we'll certainly you know be able to accommodate that as one of the re required steps in approval from that perspective and just to enter again record we have been working with Mike but he has been having some medical procedures so he did see the comments that was not able to address them given that so I I think the road we're going down right now uh at least this I'm getting from these questions is that the board's going to want to hear from your civil engineer so it might be in your best interest to table this tonight come back with him come back with a fully thought of drainage plan grading plan and any additional information and your interaction with the njd probably be really beneficial and and if I could just ask one more question that might possibly be helpful is um I don't know if you've done a camera inspection of the pipe that you're talking about having possibly some blockage but you're not sure if it has blockage um if you do that you might find that the pipe is collapsed and you know the it's not it needs to be replaced or something but um that's also helpful information for you when you're creating a drainage design okay so at this point what I'm hearing is a request to carry this meeting with I assume without further notice is acceptable to the board um until do we have an available date um we can do October 21st is that enough time to um do you want to check with your engineer and then get whether or not he's going to be exactly able to do this for us in that time period um can we October date or maybe someone in his office who's also licensed civil engineer can maybe stand in his place and if you run in because we need to schedule a particular date tonight for the purposes of avoiding additional notice from you so if we say October 21st and if you run into issues and want to request to carry further at that point we can consider that request on the 21st itself um what we'd also need to hear is are the applicants waving the time frames for the board to act on this matter yes thank you are there any other before we get into the obviously we discussed the drainage L are there any other comments architecture otherwise that we can respond to as far as putting it into the record or we want to wait for that uh grading plan I think we'll wait okay so we need a motion then we have a motion to carry to October 21st do you want to open to the public we're continuing with the testimony I guess so they'll have an opportunity yes and then they'll have the full bread of the testimony in order to respond to ask questions okay okay do we hear that motion I would make a motion to carry this second Vice chairman ly yes Mr Nelson yes Miss Zan yes Miss yes Miss Chapo yes Mr feskin yes Mr Chuli yes the motion carries any SW 61 Springfield they had a l and had from the city guys I have to cues from Beacon from yeah you still have enough right I think so you still have a second right Joe back she be fine I I hope so Joe [Laughter] might I was so good that he just decided to walk out of the building [Music] for we could take a yes Mr chairman okay take a 5 minute break we'll yeah e e e e e e e e e more cases to go I call it back to order uh we're ready for 71 Pine Grove okay and all right we'll start with the applicants I'll swear you in just the applicants at this point uh do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes please state your name one at a time and spell your last name uh my name is Katie mccormac MCC o r m a c k and I'm Christian McCormack MCC o r m a c k thank you okay can you tell us just a quick uh summary of what it is and I'm assuming it you're going to turn it over yeah and let him carry the water okay so by way of introduction I'm Christian and Katie we're the owners of 71 Pine grve Avenue uh this November we will been in the home uh for four years it's our first home um we love our home we love our neighborhood we've made wonderful relationship with our neighbors um and it's a home we want to be in for a long time uh over these four years been lucky enough to start a family we've got a 2 and a half-year-old girl who starts school this Friday uh and and we are blessed to have just welcomed the beautiful baby boy 10 weeks ago um we need more space in our home uh we've always sort of envisioned adding to our kitchen area downstairs um we come from big families we like to entertain we like to cook uh and currently in our home we can't have anyone in our family in our kitchen um so we always had this Vision that we grow up with our family in our kitchens as we did uh and then additionally we'd like to put a a bedroom above that uh if we fact fact do want to continue to grow our family they lucky enough to um or for the interim host our grandparents so uh we're represented by Tom Conway uh who will answer any further questions you may have okay any questions for the applicants no well I do just because I know part of the plan has a adding to your driveway a bit and when I visited the property there were two cars parked in the driveway your kids don't sound old enough to have their own um so what's it like getting in an out of your garage difficult yeah it's difficult uh one car in one car out so it's uh it's a bit more difficult than we when we'd like it to be uh so any extra space we could have in our driveway uh would be helpful like I can't turn the car around myself to do for me very limited amount of space turning a car around out of Drive okay well your architect can deal with the physics of it but you can talk to the experience okay any other questions for the applicant from our professionals no okay then uh we will move on to your architect and would you swear him in and yep like we raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do and please state your name spell your last name uh Thomas Conway c n w a y and I'll note for the record you've appeared before us a number of times including recently any changes to your credentials since the last time you were here not since last month no I imagine the board would like to accept you once again any issues from the board members seeing none please proceed great thank you um so like we talked about last month on Woodland the properties are very small and the houses are very dense in this um section of Pine Grove um the even though the property is of the right size these uh properties on the basically west side of Pine grve Avenue are in the R15 and they are all set back dramatically from the road rather than the typical um required um front yard setback um which would be 35 this is at 75 which exacerbates the problem so what that's the pattern of the whole neighborhood it's um that whole side of the street and it is quite beautiful um this house is a tutor Revival has some Norman aspect Norman aspects to it as well built in 1928 um and we wanted to maintain the Integrity of the house the properties also Beyond and um beyond that both prop properties on each side have additions in the back so to kind of get to the Crux of this um if you um took the property and you took the house and everything that we're putting in it and put it in the setback we wouldn't even be here so we took this whole piece put it in where it's supposed to be that would not require us to even be here so that's what's what we would call Classic a C1 variance location of the house and um the improvements on the property um and that's non-conforming so that is our number one uh hardship for this a property that the existing house is set so far back and it is kind of pushed more wide so that there is a slight a setback requir um issue on one side of the property So currently the lot area that's required is 15,000 we have 15,000 so there's no change and there's no other variances other than rear yard setback that we're here for because that's the only thing we're impact AC in um we did look at a number of different scenarios in the design process even potentially um adding up front we didn't really show that to them where we put the kitchen and kind of flip it around and add on a very attractive um you know um similar design uh on the front of the house but of course the the front of the house is really the best part of the house house it's beautifully set on the property so we kind of work with um what make the most sense uh uh with the existing historic house so I'm going to describe um what we're what we propose so the existing um can you hear me okay will this make recording it'll be okay okay great um I'll talk a little bit louder um the existing uh uh building comes across property this is the ti point the 10.2 ft um that's the nonconforming the setback requirement there is supposed to be further back and that is the kind of pinch point there and as we all discussed the pinch Point not only is there but it's in that of the drive where the concept was you would pull your Model T or something of that nature back here and get those into the garage well you can do that with a normalized car at this point even as my midsize Volvo I wouldn't even try right now so they they're having difficulty doing that so that is one condition that is pre-existing and we're trying to mitigate and the other um so the other big piece is that we're adding an addition in the back of the house to expand the kitchen and um would be a twostory Edition and we're going to put that in the area of the existing patio and we're going to push the patio area into the logical place and I'll describe that plans which would be tucked between the New Edition and their lovely screen Forge piece so the house uh here's the front of the house generally you view it more on axis has a a lovely large long FR la really attractive series of four elements kind of Step across and actually the garage and then the back of the house the garage portion and this whole side this whole side here and the garage are actually quite nice this piece on the front is beautifully designed and as a preservation of course I love that um but we felt this was a part luckily that we had to do and we could actually that with um the exis first cor plan you can see there's a this is small and it is very very tight here and it doesn't really allow for really double loaded and there's a series of steroids that lead up and circulation issues so what we're proposing is not utilize existing fishing area create service area and Pantry space and back door their house and there so that's on the first floor and the stair would come up the driveway be walkway up along the property it would be stepping stones and a Stairway that would come into the mro breakfast room would open on to the new patio so we're actually reusing the brick for the new patio here and we're connecting that to the existing screen porch both sides so it just feels logical contextual Etc um and we're maintaining a nice simple inframed opening will match other details in the house between the kitchen and dining room the second floor so we did just to let you know we did look at you know even in addition over here an addition out here we pushing out this made the most sense it impacts the least amount of neighbors it's in the middle of the house and AR reinforces the roof so on the second floor um currently there are three bedrooms a primary and out and what we're looking to do is push and add a new Charming a nursery office bedroom in the back with a nice little window seat this is all in very cottage style tutor style uh and and kind of pushing back the bathroom so it will align with this new element and then leaving everything extent so really not impacting the whole front of the house we're kind of the either side we're only really touching the which as preservationists we tend to let show you so this is kind of before and after on the outside so what we're doing is we're just relieving all of this on each both pieces extent and we're just add a one and a half story style um piece in the middle that more replicates the scale of the two side elements you'll see here this is the very attractive uh spr porch this one of the nicest porches on twoes in my opinion all of su and then so this piece I really think is great and we're just then creating once again another Gable piece that matches that design with another nice Dormer and then on the other side looking from the garage side the piece would then be lined up with the existing with the windows matching the pattern and then we would have a new St and brick here this existing extent walkway would be entry would be moved out and cut through the wall this is where the addition go so the only thing just to reiterate um we're doing is uh is we're only here for rear a rear yard setback uh variance uh what the rear yard is currently at 40 um required to be 45 it's a 47.4 we're going down to 31.0 that's the variance in the Crux of things um and uh the projects uh is in keeping with the with the house and the existing um requirements for the town uh the positive uh criteria is that uh its sized um the property drainage uh development is sized to um be nearly four times the requirements of the city of summits ordinance uh the new low retaining wall in the back the extended driveway will be level and contain water on the site and limit any water uh drainage towards other properties we're also putting a dryw in the driveway to uh retain that um the improve um the proposed additions the area of the existing P that patio therefore we're minimally minimally increasing the lock coverage percentage which we're still under the the addition is in keeping with the neighborhood and the new kit kitchen bedroom will provide a more updated living space and more logical um uh scaled rooms for uh for for today's lifestyle but still maintaining the historic Integrity of the home um and we are the satisfaction of the negative criteria the variances propos uh proposed um for this addition can be granted without any um substantial detriment to the public good it's centered in the back of the house it's behind the house doesn't visually um impact um the streetcape um and therefore it positively uh reinforces historic Integrity of the neighborhood the patterning of the neighborhood as consistent with the master plan and that any questions okay our professionals first um can you speak to the uh the the dryw and the inlet um design at all I know that's not on it wasn't your design but I'm wondering if you can um talk about maybe some of the inverts the functionality of it I can talk deeply on on how the systems work I really okay but I can um say we it within the new uh area that we're renovating we have accommodated the the sizing to meet the requirements that we need we do have a retaining wall that now that it's 2T be across the back that will be um finished in the same materials as uh as the rest of the property which and to look like the original um the idea was that we were just going to um have the dra old down spout drainage Etc comes off the roof be accommodated in the dryw and then if any water Wasing that wasas as far as this go this is okay got it so so I'll make some some uh observations on the um the dryw first of all the dry well when I look at the calculations it is um the the note on there says it is only the roof leaders from the addition that are going into the dryw so I I would think that we want to make sure that that is a condition of approval um it is overly sized that the the seage pit is is sized for greater than the addition and um it is collecting some of the driveway as well so it's going into this Inlet that's in the back of the driveway by where that um landscape or retaining wall you know it's it's a small wall two foot high so it's going back in there and that's that's great um my one concern was that I didn't know if the the um the elevations were going to were going to match you know where it goes into that Inlet that it has to um that Inlet from the driveway has to take the water into the dryw well and it just seemed like that I I can't I can't tell because there's not the correct dimensions on it but that would just have to be um clarified that that would be a condition as well that they would have to um you know show that the inverts are going to work so that there's going to be there's going to have to be water the water has to drain from from there to the drywall so you're going to put that into the requirments and then I can communicate with Andrew Clark just about what he needs to show like how the section is and how the drainage works right there and it does work according to him but I can't Taun to it I don't want to yeah there's just a few Dimensions that I'm missing on there to to verify all that please ask and clarify what dimensions you're looking for and we'll comply okay whatever you okay and Marie is that being submitted to you um I I assume we're going to ask for a drainage plan to be submitted to you or the city engineer both he's going to yeah he's going to have to submit something to me that just to show that those um those elevations are going to work would that be a formal drainage plan or no I don't think it needs to be a conf you know there's a there's um on the detail sheet for the on the engineering plan there's um something called an inlet detail and it doesn't exactly tell me how deep that Inlet is and that Inlet is meant to to hold the water and there's a standing pipe that's in it that when the water gets high enough it's going to go into that pipe and then drain into the seepage pit but that that Inlet itself is acting as a seepage pit as well so that's all good it's it's actually actually providing even more storage so um it's very unlikely that any water is is going to be cascading out of this because it's really oversized for the water that's going into it so um so anyway like I said I just don't I just don't have a dimension of how deep that is so where is that bottom pipe and how does it get over I don't know that so it's a it would be a small Dimension that they'd need to get for me and and the capacity according to them roughly four times the requir yes which is ample so they can give you the dimensioning on that agreed did I answer your question one quick question enough one quick question for me as um these are just the leaders off the house right off the addition off off of the addition would it be appropriate to consider if indeed we have four times the amount of space to look uh to get some of the um leaders from the regular house from the the existing house into this through the driveway or whatever they could certainly consider that and then they'd have to show some updated calculations but would we want that to assist because I I I do we know if the rest of the house is uh taking care of the needs of the neighbors as well do you know where the current downspouts go to right now do they just go underground go underground into system some system somewh some system that is I'm sure Antiquated so um we can have the engineer U run the rear um uh down spouts and and connect those off the full back of the house or I mean I it all depends on how extensive you I just didn't want to get too involved with Excavating entirely around the entire house so we are uh interrupting um you know this whole part of the proper basically this whole area behind the house this area here is all being impacted this this is exent this is excident there is a down spout here and there's one here that's in the drive that could certainly be connected in and we can easily connect this um and we do have one along this edge of this volume it's staying so we could connect that one as well so those three possibly could be connected across the back of the home um without let's say what we don't want to do is is excavate entirely around the entire house and leave do all the drainage it isn't really an issue for set so I I think what I'm what I'm hearing him say is that um it would be logical if he could take the whole entire back half of the house pretty much any of the back leaders that are coming off of the house so that's the back of the garage roof um the back of the I'll say the sun room portion of the house and maybe um half of that main Center Peak you could take that and add that in as in addition to the addition this down SP and then there's another one here that we can all interconnect because remember we're rebuilding the driveway as well so we can connect that connect that's basically what I did on my house home we connected all them to the new train system and it worked out really well for these 100e storms that now happen three times the the other thing that um you could consider is that this this is um even though they're not taking the water from the whole entire roof of the house they are not taking the driveway which wasn't being collected before and that's being collected into this seage fit so um you know you could look at it as a little bit of a tradeoff the driveway was increased they're not collecting the driveway um and then there doesn't have to be a redesign of the of the seage pit although so should we condition getting a plan for this new training system for the back half of the house I think I think just to just to demonstrate that um it is sized for the back of the house the driveway in the addition and that they are committing to putting it together that way right because I think that was my question was this is uh you have a retaining wall at the bottom of the driveway right at the back at the back right so that is now going to be collecting storm water that was previously running off the property like in the if if I'm facing your backyard the back right corner has a little bit of a dip and it looks like water kind of runs that way off into a neighboring backyard right so no no one likes that happening but that's what's happening now so you're improving that situation right by putting up the retaining wall but now this has to be able to capture not just the runoff from the extended driveway but from kind of the whole driveway because what used to flow off the driveway is now being contained so I don't know like you said it was four times as much so you've counted the entire um entire driveway in that calculation or just the new drive just the new bit the entire driveway okay and that but I mean we can look at the the numbers he can give you exactly those calculations like you just don't want it overflowing and where does it over you know where does it overflow to where's the discharge point right but right right now they improved it y um by collecting the entire driveway including the additional driveway right so they're already improving the situation right so you accomodate the entire driveway yeah that's I think very much appreciated because that um you know obviously you guys are you have a slope in your house too coming from the road and that you know um Pine Grove and then what's that Manor Hill or whatever Manor Hill right so you have your kind of you're not at the bottom of the hill but it comes that way yeah I mean it's coming down Manor Hill running across high and it's also you just don't want to make sure that you're not running into the other property behind there yeah so it should actually be better for the neighboring property with your work than it is now that would be positive so the condition would be why exactly so what what I'm hearing now is a reversion back to submission of a drainage plan to the board engineer for review and approval and then that would luy let me just let me just make sure I understand we do do you want the back half of the house to go into it as well any of it yes all the all the leaders off the back of the house plus the driveway plus the addition and that's going to go into the drivew if it all fits yeah if it all fits and I'm I'm sure like the front of the house where the garage is that leader probably drains into the driveway to run backwards don't know I'm willing to bet dollars a Donuts it does but so that has that has to be included in it too a question I have about the driveway in the back I'm sorry what you just said well the front of the house front I guess it would be the front of the garage where that Dormer is on the right that LE where does that leader go it's probably into the ground we don't yes so you don't know okay but we don't know where it goes I'll give you the you're going to reconstruct that driveway anyway so you're going to find out where it goes not necessarily because it's in the front of the existing garage we're not rebuild back of the front of the front I'm confused with what's front what's back right there fac right correct and we're not rebuilding this we're rebuilding in the back this area we're not rebuilding here what's happening is the front of the house typical of this vage house the down spout under system under the house but of course it's the front of the house is equal to the back of the garage okay got it the front of the garage is where the doors front of this this garage this is the front and this is the side Joe and then this is the back front of the garage side back so the back down spot is what we were talking about and then there's an existing down spot my thought was somewhere no it's actually right here yeah I thought yeah my thought my comment was I thought that drained into the drive but it does not that does not drain all the way around the property drains straight down and goes goes to wherever we don't know where in the Providence yeah it's percolating down there so one more question about the drive loud um you're not making the driveway wider you're just making it longer okay correct so how is that going to solve their problem of turning into the car what it allows for is a a deeper distance so as you he turn the car back so let if pull it back far enough you're able to turn the car okay around to get in which you can't do right now so what happens is they go down and they kind of back it around a little bit or try to get in but there's not enough space to get it so it creates a ability for both cars to be able to kurn into the back okay of the garage and we did diagram that but we didn't show that to you but that's the concept you could see the differential allows for that distance that's actually quite a nice distance now for able get there pull these are not really parking spaces they're just a place get finally get the car to be able to get into rush and this plan needs to be provided by when the drainage plan we usually don't put a time frame on it so well yeah in theory during permit under normal circumstances when would you need to get that well you're going to um if you were to do an approving resolution and I guess it would have to after resolution compliance when they're coming in to get building permits okay as long as everybody knows that's what we're doing okay any any any other questions Marine no I'm sorry that was your first question that was it that was my one and only questions any the board members have any questions for me beyond that like architecturally or the one thing I'm struggling with is is the is the rear yard setback which is the only variant you need obviously um you know it's it's going from required is 45 you already have and your your proposed is 31 where you have 47 now correct that's a that's a I mean when I walked back there um I was a little concerned concerned about how far back that was going well it it isn't it's no further back it's basically the same dep as as the patio but it's volume it's correct volumetrically it's one and well it's really one and a half stories there and it actually aligns with the houses on both sides which both have addition one side was a garage purely a garage I understand but I'm just saying that those were there but not two store to one and a half is just a garage you know so it's less obtrusive to the neighbors in the back in my opinion anyway you know in other words a 10- foot high garage Peak can be hidden by trees or one and a half story may or may not be over you know it might take 20 years for the trees to whatever I'm I don't know I'm not a tree expert so I'm just thinking of the the the site of from what the neighbors will see and you know if there's any here that have the ability to speak tonight then we'll listen to them if not then Mo on just my comment any questions this is more ministerial but because they're they do have an existing non-conforming side yard setback would we include that in any um relief just gr blessing the grandfathering we could don't need to it's it's pre-existing non-conformity clearly sometimes we do sometimes we do when there's an issue but it's it's not being impacted here so usually we wouldn't require that um you're using the patio as the reason that you can go ahead with the 31 and I guess I need a technical answer to this from our folks is but you're actually got a twostory addition which is a building not a patio is that allowed to be there when you can use the patio as the uh setback are permitted to do that but as the building and I don't have the answer I believe my recollection of the code off the top of my head is that if the patio connects to the house it is considered part of the principal setback so if okay I think I think that's the question but I mean regardless because story addition goes out further than the patio towards the back property line yeah the requirement either way under the current code is the 45 ft so they're not I guess necessarily claiming any sort of relief due to the existing patio they're still seeking a variance but it's because it's been located there um and you know predates the existing setback requirements that's why it's located currently but regardless they need a variant for the setback yeah exactly but the the the setback is only supposed to be 31 ft and the building goes further than 31 ft you can see it right on the drawing this is this is 31 ft the face of the addition right it's supposed to be 45 see this do line I got it that from the so then therefore the building is 31 ft and the patio is something like 30 uh patio is like 33 or 32 see it's probably okay it's higher it should be a higher number right one foot yeah right that way so is that supposed to be like that or are they supposed to be the same are you asking that should the proposed patio be in alignment with the 31 ft are they supposed to be in alignment they don't but you're asking for the variance for 31 ft for the building not for the patio I'm following that question are you following that question if we go into the community Ser the the um packet and it says right here the exist the rear yard setback of 31 feet were as required blah blah blah then it talks about the patio in addition it shall be noted that the proposed patio encroaches on the rear yard setback I'm losing my traff attach photos then it says it has to be at least 30 ft excuse me where did I go I took attached patio here m who's this from this is from our zoning officer yes attach Pao attached patios may may encroach into the required rear yard by no more than 10 ft right so requir the proposed ptio has a rear yard setback of 31 ft and does not conform to the requirements so that seems to indicate it's matching the 31 ft Mr can clarify to see the proposed patio is that in alignment with the re wall of the new addition proposed new addition looks Clos to me it looks like it's how do you back the back the new proposed so I'm understanding that correctly it's splitting the variance one is 31 ft for the new addition and then the patio would be 33 ft the Pao the proposed patio is a 31t setback according to according to the memo but the plans that we're seeing shows it at 33 33 so they may have adjusted well we have in the engineering drawing3 from that from what the engineering just generic box was we actually pull these pieces out okay so so just to confirm then originally it was drafted as 31 ft to both the house and the patio now you're saying you're cutting back on the patio so it's 33 feet for the patio 31 ft for the house okay everyone's on the same page now so is that two variances yeah is that one or two variances we would splitting hairs it's it's a rear yard setback variance of 31 ft to the house 33t to the patio okay great is that clear now does that make I hope clear as M you made sense out of my fruit salad I'm sorry just add to that is that the patio is supposed to be 35 right we know that so okay just wanted to clarify for the record whereas 33 is what they're okay yeah because right here it says the proposed patio um setback of 31 ft and does not conform to the requirement but we're talking about that's 33 33 yeah so that's two feet instead of four right so Andy's drafting up language that includes the patio as well so I think we're covered okay any other questions are there any questions from the public on the to the this particular witness I don't see anybody raising their hand um so now I guess we can uh go to the uh second part of the uh audience participation does anyone have uh anything that they would like to tell us about this any opinions on this particular project again I see none uh do you as uh the applicants have anything that you would like to to say to the board and conclusion okay uh at this point we will go to telling us the conditions as we know them and the number of votes that are required to carry this particular project if we so desire well I'll I'll tell the conditions and the votes and then you'll go into close s that point so uh I have two conditions one is compliance with those conditions noted in the board Engineers memorandum and second that the applicant shall submit a drainage plan to the board engineer for review and approval that covers everything that you were asking about right Marie okay we want to put in there anything about what it's collecting I think we have the testimony directing you on what is going to collect unless we need to see that specifically I think you have your direction from there okay um only a c variant for the reared setback is required so four votes or majority of the board is required to approve the application okay and now we go into discussion of the board in executive session who would like to kick it off I'd like to start um I appreciate Mr Conway's um very thorough um explanation of the the property where the the location of the house how the house is set back um which if it was the house was closer to the street um we wouldn't even be here um appreciate the thought put into not building onto the front of the house and changing the whole character of the house just basically putting it onto the back and still still with keeping within the character of the house um I think everything is been very um well thought out and um I support this application okay anyone on this side um yeah I I agree with what Miss chfo had to say oh and by the way congratulations on the addition to your family so feel like we should have covered that earlier but um um I and with regards to putting something in the front of the house you know one of the things that I observed when I was you know driving by Pine grve is that your house is while it's set back 75 ft so are all of your neighbors so if you had added to the front of the house you would have actually changed the whole look of the street and I think the the character of that little of your part of the block so I I do think that this is is the best solution and obviously you're not over on building coverage or lot coverage it is more like if we could just you know move the house up 10 feet it would wouldn't be an issue so I um and I really appreciate the um oversizing the storm water and giving the opportunity to maybe direct some more um storm water there given you know like you said we're having 100e storm every every 3 months um I think that'll be beneficial to you and I think it'll be beneficial to the neighbors as well so um it's nice to see at that with that much capacity and if I could build on that a little I mean what we're sort of dancing around with the sea VAR with with the sea variance is usually it's a hardship due to Something in the shape of the lot or the topography and here here it's not necessarily that so much as the the front lines of all the houses in a row on that side of Pine Grove that almost create the condition that make that that force you to build on the back of the house it creates a it it uh sorry at this point we're we're not taking any any comments that's okay I'm I'm I'm trying to build this into the sea to for you Andy and I also o note that the back the back of the house is very well screened you've got a fence you've got plantings it's very hard for the rear neighbor to see anything and those plantings are pretty tall so I too can support this other comments from anyone okay um I will sum up I think you have a positive case um I don't see any real negatives and yes the fact that the property line is where it is is what we're why we're here otherwise we you probably if this was what however many feet more forward we would not even be discussing this here but it wouldn't be nice for the neighborhood so this is nice for the neighborhood and I'm really impressed with the fact that they're willing to go with all of the extra water retention uh which is preempting any problems with their neighbor for their neighbors and for themselves so uh I can really support this as well and would entertain a motion to approve this so moved second can we have a roll call please Vice chairman Lett yes Mr Nelson yes Miss Z yes Miss to yes Miss Cho yes Mr feskin yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries congratulations well we're going to move ahead and try and get some of this in if we can as much as we can uh results before I'll just note for the record that Mr lyit has recused from this matter and has left the room okay yeah thank you and ready evening U Mr chairman members of the board I'm Hillary s from Dy Dy and Shen representing the African Beacon Hill Club 250 Hobart Avenue block 2203 Lot 1 in the r43 zone Beacon Hill Club has been part of the summit neighborhood where it's been located since 1956 over the years Beacon Hill Club has received approvals by the board of adment to update the property in order to provide amenities that reflect the needs of contemporary membership the focus of this application is on the club's lower campus which includes the carriage house which has been part of the property um since before it was founded in 1956 and was last updated in 19 in the 1990s with some minor bathroom Renovations um there's Pat's house which is the hockey warming and viewing Hut um and is a pre-existing non-conforming accessory structure um as to height area stories and dimension and the final area of focus is the parking area which has a narrow Drive aisle and an inefficient parking layout modernizing updating and reconfiguring the three these three components of the lower campus will bring the club into current custom and Vogue of surrounding clubs in the area provide an aesthetic benefit to the surrounding neighbors provide architect ual consistency throughout the property improve safety and on-site circulation both vehicular and pedestrian and provide accessibility improvements which currently do not exist it will add off street parking including Ada accessible parking and electrical vehicle charging stations um and it will improve storm water management by the installation of dry Wells which will have the capacity to capture more runoff than is generated by the proposed improvements the improvements proposed by this application are to construct certain additions to the carriage house and paths house reconfigure widen and stripe the lower parking area stripe the upper parking area to provide designated off- street parking spaces and add off street parking spaces including conforming Ada accessible spaces and electrical vehicle charging stations which again currently do not exist none of the improvements proposed are designed to increase membership programming or the intensity of the use in order to realize these improvements Beacon Hill Club is seeking the following approvals and variances uh preliminary and final major site plan approval conditional use approval deviation from the conditional use standards uh regulating lot coverage um the applicant is uh requesting less than 1% additional laot coverage I believe it's 65% % disturbance of steep slopes for 2.12% of the steep slopes on the property um off street parking to permit um nine additional spaces um rather than the 18 that are required and to increase the pre-existing non-conformities of Pat's house by expanding the Second Story and increasing the height by 8.5 ft but that is only for 75% of the building and increasing the ground floor area area by 55 Square ft Beacon Hill Club has presented this application to its surrounding neighbors over the course of four neighborhood meetings resulting in proposed conditions of approval which will be presented during the testimony provided tonight the testimony will also demonstrate the continued appropriateness of the site for the proposed improvements that the topography and existing lawful structures create a practical difficulty and undue hardship upon applicant the application advances numerous purposes of zoning including but not limited to the general welfare Public Safety and Aesthetics um and it will further meet the purposes of the steep slope ordinance the benefits of this proposal which includes a well-designed and substantial landscape plan far outweigh any perceived detriment the presentation tonight will begin with Pascal Lon president of Beacon Hill Club then Bill Scott the civil engineer ran Cooney the architect Benjamin heler landscape architect Craig Parago traffic engineer and wrapping up with the planner Paul Phillips I have nothing else unless there's any questions or we can call the first witness questions from the professionals on the board no questions questions from the public to the attorney questions only come forward please you have to come forward to use a microphone and it's a question only to the name and address please uh sure um my name is Le Den No Calahan um the last name is spelled o apostrophe c a l l a g h n I live at 24 brandwood okay um I uh have a question about um if there are zoning board uh members who have a relationship with the club um and it it sounds like maybe there was one already but um he's recused himself I I don't know if he does but for some reason he feels he needs to so he did right are there any other zoning members um who have a relationship with the club that they feel would uh present a conflict of interest were they to vote okay the other question I had and perhaps it's more appropriate later um is if any conditions are made um on on the on the plan um such as let's say uh to the hours that the zambon can operate or something how would those conditions be um enforced that will be part of the testimony okay all right uh thank you uh okay any other questions seeing none can we call call your first witness yep uh Pascal L if you could please raise your right hand do you swear airm the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do and please state your name spell your last name Pascal laland l a l o n de thank you uh just one thing we're going to try and wrap by about 10:25 so because we still have another executive session to deal with okay sounds good so um can you please tell the board the position of responsibility that you've had at Beacon Hill Club sure I'm the president of the Board of Trustees at the Beacon Hill Club um in Your Capacity as president uh Beacon Hill Club are you authorized to speak on behalf of the club in regard to the application pending before the board I am okay can you describe the objectives underlying the proposed improvements certainly um over the last few years the club completed a substantial renovation of the main Clubhouse which is located in the upper campus facing Hobart Avenue the club is now focused on updating and renovating the outdated facilities in the lower campus which include the carriage house and Pat's house or otherwise known as the the warming Hut adjacent to the hockey rink these facilities are old outdated not functional unattractive in some cases not safe not ADA Compliant and not energy efficient the carriage house has existed on the property since before the Inception of Beacon Hill Club in 1956 it was renovated to its current state in the ear early 1990s or or over 30 years ago since then only minor bathroom Renovations have been completed and the building is in need of significant repair and modernization the club's goal is to repair and modernize this building to provide more functional space for existing members and employees in addition the club seeks to provide storage space for maintenance equipment and to improve accessibility currently the maintenance department does not have a break room or a locker room and most maintenance equipment is stored Outdoors the swim team coaches and skating coaches have no office space and life cards have no break room the locker rooms are seriously outdated and not functional for example the showers in the locker room are the group style showers with several shower heads in a single open space the proposed plans include private shower stalls to provide a sign a a private and safe locker room environment for young athletes in accordance with guidelines from safe sport a regulatory body for Youth Sports also there are currently no family locker rooms the second story of the carriage house which includes the dining area can only be accessed by Steris access to the pool or the ice rink from the carriage house is limited There's no practical viewing area for the pool the patio around the infant pool does not provide sufficient space and the existing kitchen is not functional or no longer functional and needs all equipment to be replaced another goal is to improve Energy Efficiency to be more environmentally friendly through the upgrade of the mechanical equipment for the carriage house and by replacing chillers for the ice rink these were installed in the 1980s they are energy intensive and well past their useful life we also aim to install backup generators for both the main Clubhouse and Carriage House shifting to Pat's house the warming Hut adjacent to the hockey rink this is a pre-existing non-conforming accessory structure built in 1962 it has not changed materially since the structure is in need of repair modernization and important safety enhancements Pat's house is used during skating hours which have been the same for the last 50 years from 7:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. 3 and 1/2 months of the year Pats house has serious design floss the club's objectives are to provide safer access to the second level and to sign significantly improve the viewing experience the existing windows from the first floor are more like bay windows with vertical metal obstructions between each window which makes visibility of on Ice activity very difficult the glass on the rink frequently I up or fogs up which makes ground level visibility into the rink very challenging this has resulted in a dangerous condition of overcrowding on the small outdoor viewing platform on the Second Story of Pat's house the second level of Pat's house can only be accessed by a very old and narrow spiral staircase throughout the lower campus the club SE seeks to improve site circulation off street parking landscaping and lighting the existing lower campus lighting type and style are out outdated and not dark sky compliant the drive aisle width is very narrow trash and recycling areas are not enclosed the upper campus parking spaces are not delineated and the handicap spaces are not conforming finally the Landscaping on the lower campus is inadequate and is in need of significant enhancement thank you um recognizing that the club's professionals will testify in more detail can you provide the board with a general overview of what is proposed as part of the application to meet the OB jectives that you just laid out certainly uh so with regard to The Carriage House the club seeks to construct and make additions to the following areas the front entryway to allow for the installation of an elevator providing handicap and stroller access to the building and surrounding amenities the kitchen area to improve usability and functionality the west side of the building essentially making a t instead of an l-shape to provide much needed space for uh indoor space for storage equipment office space for summer and winter employees a break room for lifeguards and separate family changing rooms with direct access to the patio The Carriage House locker rooms will be upgraded the dining room and bar area will be reconfigured and modernized to provide direct access to the patio area and also to provide upper level pool viewing and seating with regards to Pat's house the club seeks the following enhancements replace the windows facing the rink to allow for unobstructed views construct a 895 ft enclosed Second Story observation area as well as a 311t open viewing deck this second level will be accessed by outdoor stairs that blend with a slope of the property and provide a safer means of access additional improvements proposed include upgrading the mechanical equipment for both the carriage house and Pats house installing new chillers in a location that will be screened from View and installing backup generators that will also be screened the new equipment and chillers will all be energy efficient and more environmentally friendly reconfiguring pedestrian walkways Crossings drop off and pickup areas and the connections between the Carriage House parking area ice rink and pool amenities a minor expansion of the patio area around the infant pool significant enhancement to the Landscaping in the lower campus replacing the lighting so it complies with ordinance standards enclosing and screening the garbage and recycling areas repa saing reconfiguring and striping the lower campus parking area widening the drive a and improving the turnaround area adding off street parking spaces including Ada accessible spaces adding an electric vehicle charging station and finally striping the upper campus parking area which is currently undesignated uh will these proposed improvements create an increase in the number of members or an increase in the intensity of the use of the club no that's not our plan or our expectation the improvements proposed are to improve functionality and attractiveness of the space for existing members and employees the improvements provide ADA Compliant accessibility to the carriage house and related amenities they provide a space for storage of equipment indoors rather than outside around the property none of the improvements are designed to increase membership or add any additional programming and has the club had any neighborhood meetings associated with the proposed improvements yes the club has held four neighborhood meetings on May 8th May 15th July 16th and August 22nd and what was the outcome of those meetings upon hearing feedback from our neighbors on the proposed lower campus project the club has committed to certain conditions of approval that are offered to the board for inor Corporation into an approval should the board vote in favor of the application these proposed conditions were circulated to all NE neighbors within 200 ft of the club's property on August 9th I will could be marked A1 I will highlight the two main points of the proposed conditions of approval number one is Landscaping the club commits to the installation and planting of Landscaping in accordance with the landscape plan filed with this application and as Modified by the city Forester installing drip lines for Accelerated growth of plantings and replacing unhealthy trees as promptly as practicable number two is confirmation of skating hours which are from 700 a.m. to 10 p.m. during the skating season which is from mid November through early March and also clarification of ice and related maintenance hours and procedures which includes start and end times for ice maintenance timing for lighting and operation of snow removal equipment okay and I think that there was also indoor location of equipment storage and the signage for the emergency access gate on correct okay um have you retained any experts to assist the club in the development of the plans and presentation of this application yes we have a civil engineer Bill Scott architect Jeff roding and Brian Cooney landscape architect Benjamin heler traffic engineer Craig perago and planner Paul Phillips I have no further questions questions from our professionals none from them questions from the board I'm going to ask one um women's sports have grown for those of us uh you know that are watching the Olympics and other things we're seeing lots of and of course there's also Title 9 Etc uh are there any I don't I don't know whether or not Summit schools use Beacon Hill uh as a rental for practice facilities Etc we don't rent the rank there's an annual there's a tradition where the boys and girls hockey team each play a game annually at at our facility okay does do we meet will this meet the title n requirements I can't speak to that for sure I can tell you that the the growth in participation in among the girls has been um outstanding and has been the area of the fastest growth to give you an example and I I coached many hockey teams at Beacon Hill over the years my 10-year-old daughter last year was part of the very first U10 so age 10 and under hockey team all girls hockey team at Beacon Hill and starting this winter we will we're keeping that team and we will have the first ever u8 all girls hockey team at Beacon Hill well this kind of goes in just the opposite of some one of your was part of your testimony where you were talking about no new programs and you didn't believe it would be wrot these are all with our existing membership and it's not it's not growth per se it's just a redistribution of numbers from boys we're seeing more girls participate as they come up as as youngsters as minites and these facilities will be able to handle that yes yeah I think the upgrades to the locker rooms and things like that again they're trying to comply with all of those I regulations is what I I figure the other experts when they come up will now know that it's coming so they'll be ready for it perect are there uh any other questions in the board I've got a quick one I I may have just misheard but did you say there was one or I believe I saw elsewhere in the application two electric vehicle parking spaces how many are being proposed one is being proposed okay and the uh traffic engineer will talk about that okay okay any questions from the public come on up and again we need you to repeat your name and address that every time you come up you're going to be asked to do that LE no Callahan O Apostrophe c h h n 24 brandwood um so now I have my question about the conditions that were mentioned um how would those be enforced so they'll be incorporated into a resolution of approval any conditions that are imposed by the board and I imagine acceptance of these proposed conditions will be one of them um it's memorialized adopted by the board and then official record the zoning officer can issue any violations for non-compliance with any conditions in the resolution including those specifically imposed by the board so in other words imagine three years from now they start practicing hockey at 5:00 a.m. instead of 7: a.m. I would call the zoning board that's how I would uh ask for that to be enforced no not the zoning board you would call the uh land use department and you know they'll get it to the zoning officer they can stations yeah or potentially code enforcement there's a number of people within the city who can issue violations and actually we haven't read that I think some of these are included in what we received here the hours and things like that obviously if you notice when it was handed to me I put it over here because I wanted to listen to the testimony uh I have a feeling that over the next uh until we know when our next meeting is with these folks we'll have a chance to read that uh there will be other people testifying and we can always bring uh the uh the gentleman back and ask him how uh you know I'll tell you we don't allow certain things in town at 8:00 in the morning how are we going to allow 7 o'clock and you got to get the ice ready ahead of time at 6 o' you know we may want to ask those questions and find out the answers to them and uh know where we go from that uh that point forward but uh you know it's all going to be get covered because we have I think another six witnesses to go only five only five there total assist Y and that's not going to happen tonight no okay thank you okay okay I think we've hit that point that we should not bring the engineer on uh that your next witness on if you think what uh what is the open date that we're looking at October 7 that's kind of quick for us yes thank you is October sth acceptable to you guys yes oh with no notice right okay um I imagine you're okay with no further notice and no for well uh so we'll be looking for a motion to carry this till that date of October 7th with no further notice and you wave the uh time for the board to act I'm going to get it all one of these days so moved is there a second second all those in favor I Carri thank you thank you for your patience and understanding we have one item that I think we can handle in Open Session but uh it was initially talked about that it would be in closed session and that's the RFQ discussion um the only thing I was going to say is the annual time of the year has come uh if you have a company that you feel should be considered for the positions that we have open which are legal U engineering and planning um and we hire those every year uh make sure that Stephanie knows who they are and has the proper contact or contact them yourself and ask them to contact the city of summit uh to get the specifications so that they can put in uh the proper documentation and then that will all go through the uh professional Purchasing Office and we will have a a gander of that I think what November yeah we will get our uh you know the information in November and then we'll determine whether or not we're interviewing uh and how we move forward usually the beginning of November you right and that was what I was going to say in Clos session which I think is fine in Open Session unless the attorney's going to tell me I did bad yeah it's all good no a couple of years ago we did go through a really rigorous RF process I know I know we have several new members since then um and and I think and we may very well be going through that again I don't know right it depends upon how what what we see in applications and responses to the RFQ okay good um any questions any comments if not our next meeting is September the 16th and anybody want to move move to aurn move toour second all those in favor thank you all