##VIDEO ID:OM6pfGejh3U## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e evening welcome to the October 21st 19 2024 meeting of the city of summit zoning board my name is Joe Steiner and I uh chair the board this year please rise and join us in the Pledge of Allegiance I pled ALG to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic stand indice in accordance with the New Jersey statute 10 col 4-10 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided to a newspaper of record and has been posted here at City Hall this meeting is a Judicial procedure as Claire just told us uh any any questions um or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times for the benefit of the interested public this meeting is being live streamed to the city's YouTube page and also broadcast on summit's governmental Channel which is Comcast channel 34 and Verizon channel 30 a transcript of this meeting is being taken using the video and audio so we need all speakers to utilize one of the microphones in the room please note that the fire exits are to my right your left and at the back of the room where you entered I guess the door is open anyway the city has an assisted listening system to help the hearing impaired if anyone needs that hearing assistance please obtain the system at the Das and return it thereafter Miss please call the role sure chairman Steiner finally here Vice chairman leas here Mr Yuko here Mr Nelson here miss Don is excused Mr Kieran is excused Mr Malay here miss to here miss Cho here Mr feskin is excused Mr Chuli here you have a quarum you may proceed thank you Andy ball is the zoning board's attorney he sits next to me on the right and he will advise the board members on matters of Law and he is the key interface with the applicants attorney Mr ball does not vote on the applications Stephanie suos whom you just met as a city employee and as the zoning board secretary she works with applicants on preparing their applications planning our agendas and keeping our meeting minutes she also does not vote on the the applications also present are our experts who are hired annually by the board to provide input to the board uh Marie rafy is from Coler engineering and uh we don't have anybody from our planning firm here tonight because the uh the um applications don't require their input these experts are seated at the table to the right of the board at the Public's left and they also do not vote on the applications our board consists of seven regular members and up to four alternates all the members can participate in the hearings but a maximum of seven can vote most applications require a simple majority to be approved before we enter our executive session to vote on the application you will be advised how many votes are required each case begins with the applicant or their attorney giving us an overview of the application and the process that has taken place to date and the variances that are required we then hear from any additional expert witnesses that the applicant may have to help explain the application and why the variances are needed board members then may ask questions of the applicant their attorney and the expert Witnesses once the board members and the board professionals have completed their questioning the public will have their opportunity to ask questions this is not the time to tell us what you think about the case that come will come a little bit later please be careful as to how you phrase your questions they should be not be preceded with a statement about the case which should be a direct question to the witness also before you ask your question please clearly state your name spell your last name and provide your address that's important because our court reporter has to be able to keep a clear and accurate public record after all the witnesses have been heard members of the audience have their second opportunity to speak and at that time you can express your opinion positive or negative about the application then the public hearing would be closed and we enter into what is called executive session where the board members discuss the case and vote you'll be able to listen to that executive session but you will not normally be able to participate in our discussion City Zoning officer has asked that we remind all the applicants that they must read carefully the resolution that documents the zoning board's decision and to pay particular attention to the conditions contained in the resolution for example if a landscaping plan is required you must obtain one and submit it to John linon the city's Forester if a grading plan is required you must have one prepared by a civil engineer ER and submit three copies along with the application fee to the city's engineering division failure to satisfy all the conditions in a resolution will result in a delay in approving your application and it will cause extra work for the city's zoning staff the resolutions documenting the board's decision will normally be available one month after we decide the case uh we do have four cases this evening and um normally we would begin by asking each to come to the podium and advise us how many witnesses they have and if they feel they can complete their case in 30 minutes but as I am going to be excused from the first two cases I'll turn it over to our vice chair to uh take care of those two and right I'll be back sometime we have uh 77 West End on up recall this is going to be request to carry okay if I understand correctly hopefully without um the micro sorry um yes request to carry hopefully without noticing and can you just give us a brief explanation of what's happened since the last hearing and what the status of the matter is M so uh We've uh been with our engineer Casey B uh they were not able to prepare the drainage and grading plan in time for this meeting uh we've been talking with Stephanie about potential Alternatives um we would be ready for uh a meeting in December so we're asking potentially to carry to the December 2nd meeting um our engineer said that the people to do the plan will be out to our house hopefully in the next week or so okay great Stephanie is that where timing wise yes mhm okay do we have a motion to carry move do we have a second second before we vote I just want to confirm that you're waving the board's time frame to act under the statute until December 2 yes good [Laughter] answer Stephanie can we have a roll call vote please okay Vice chairman lit yes Mr Yuko yes Mr Nelson yes Mr Malay yes Miss to yes Miss Cho yes Mr Chan Chuli yes the motion carries all right we'll see you in December thank you uh next on our docket is 10 walren Avenue I'm sorry before you speak is there a can you check for a button on that mic thank you check yep that's it all right so we're just asking you um how many witnesses you're going to have tonight will you be able to complete your testimony in 30 minutes or so yes we have two witnesses apart from ourselves and we should be able to complete in less than 30 minutes okay great thank you um next is to two Woodmere Drive yes good evening my name is Tom oon we're the owners of two wood mayare right do you have any Witnesses tonight we have two professionals with us this evening if they're necessary yes do you believe your testimony will take 30 minutes or less yes we do all right excellent thank you so much thank you and last on our list is 174 Springfield AV good evening Ryan horbath Kate Prince um we have two professionals here with us tonight and we will be able to complete within 30 minutes great Perfect all right three for three I like it all right so let's start with ten Waldren we're GNA have Mr ball where you in uh they were actually previously sworn at the last hearing so we that you remain under oath at this hearing this evening perfect me give an intro while he's setting up wa absolutely um so many of you have heard from us before my name is Peter to Hill this is my wife Kristen our son Quinton um we have we bought our house in 2010 we were 25 years old and had no children um it was a big eyesore we did a lot of work did the gut Renault back then with pretty much all the money that we had um you have continued to just you know improve the house over the years um we now have our fifth child and are looking for a variance to add you know for addition of Dormers um to just have some more livable square footage on the third floor um and then also just bump out to um the kitchen um um you know to just like Square Off the house there and the main reason the kitchen's pretty small you know we're you know cooking for seven people and we just you know was an old house so just didn't have much cabinet or counter space um so you know the addition will just allow us to have more cabinets more counter space a little bit better flow um you know that's the main reason for the kitchen addition there's currently not a single closet on the whole first floor nowhere to put a broom a vacuum anything so okay great that'll well let's hold on uh do we have any questions for these Witnesses from the board seeing none do we have any questions from the audience for these Witnesses okay great if you can introduce your professionals uh so we have um Doug is gonna start the way first great hi good evening Douglas Miller from ahm Architects 281 Main Street Milburn New Jersey thank you and I'll note also for the record you were previously sworn at the last hearing your credentials as an architect were accepted at that time and you remain under oath this evening yes good evening everyone uh we were here back at the beginning of August of this year um to ask for variant relief for three Dormers that were constructed uh without a building department approval in the Attic of the home at 10 Waldren um subsequent to that uh based upon the board's recommendations and the town uh there was some other site modifications that were made uh back when the homeowners originally purchased the house a number of years ago and we're also proposing to construct a small addition at the rear of the home in the left rear corner to square it off to create additional kitchen and mudroom space uh as uh Pete had said their goals really to improve the functionality of their attic to add a little bit more bedroom space for their growing family to expand the rear of their home to create more kitchen space and more uh and a mudroom and imagine with five children uh you know mudroom and kitchen spaces is much uh needed so let me just walk you through the plans our our lot is 58.2 by 144 or 8,788 ft in the r10 zone um do you want me to like kind of go through everything again since you know it's been a number of months we or should jump ahead to the changes Jump Ahead to the changes okay so since we heard last time the Dormers you've seen we've discussed those what we're proposing to do here uh on the this is the existing first floor plan we're removing the back wall of the kitchen space expanding the rear of the house approximately uh 12 and 1/2 ft towards the rear uh in line with the back of the existing family room uh we're taking the existing kitchen and the supended area combining them to create a kitchen and a mudroom space this creates more usable kitchen area much safer workpace uh a more functional work triangle uh so as I stated last time we have a lot of existing non-conformities that we're trying to deal with um and we're requesting C variances now for lock coverage and building coverage uh the lock coverage is to address the changes that were done years ago and building coverage which is for this addition uh the addition is about 260 square ft so we're asking for uh variance relief for lock coverage for that and we're also enclosing a staircase that was previously there moving it to the back to create access to the basement um you know this is an area of water uh Ingress U we're also asking for floor area ratio the house was existing non-conforming in floor area the three Dormers add a dious amount of 54 square ft and the first floor kitchen Edition adds an addition 260 sare ft uh there's no changes to the second floor and subsequent to uh the submission of these drawings I have a handout to give you they based upon the comments from different departments in the town they had a question about uh showing a graph or a graphic of how the attic does not count as a story so I included that that is shown on the sheet here and on the elevation drawing they wanted to have the roof pitches shown so I've done that I have that drawing for you I can hand that out and just for clarification suus this is what you emailed us early today but these will be exhibits they'll be three and four a three and four thank you thank you thank you so all that shows is an additional drawing which is the attic story calculation and it shows based upon the town ordinance the attic does not count as a story uh one thing I like to note in the comments is that the construction official said that the attic will not be used as a bedroom uh my understanding of the ordinance and the building code there's nothing in either that would prevent this from being used as a bedroom so I don't want that to be a limitation of this application um the attic is primarily going to be used as a bedroom or a study uh you know Flex space has a bathroom up there already and there's some storage mechanical space uh I think the addition at the rear is very modest and uh I'll show you that on the elevation so this is the existing proposed the only real change is this area I'm pointing to the left side elevation this is that 12 1/2t expansion um it's a low slung Edition integrates well with the overall massing and volume of the house really finishes off the house if you look at some of the photos that our planner Mr Keller will be presenting later it really uh makes this existing uh twostory element on the back much more integrated into the overall uh massing of the home and creates a more attractive and functional layout uh last time we talked about the Dormers and that was the only other comment from the uh different departments in town and the HBC said that they thought that the Dormers might be a little bit large but as I mentioned Le last time and we went through the photo board uh and I had given a handout of before and after I think the Dormers really uh go a long way to improving the curb appeal you know when you look at different neighboring especially when we look at uh this photo board that we presented last time there there's a variety of scale of Dormers throughout this neighborhood the Dormers are somewhere would say they're too large or too small or just right you know what is really the right size for a dorm and as I mentioned last time aesthetics are really subjective what one person may find attractive another person may find uh unattractive so if we look at the existing house in that handout that I gave you last time and the proposed it really goes a long way to enhancing uh the house and really making the house much more in keeping with the rich historic character of walren Avenue and the surrounding streets and I think without it the house really just seemed flat and two-dimensional this adds a lot lot for a DI Minimus increase of just 54 square ft in floor area and adds a lot more functionality to the house uh I think that this really goes to enhancing the historic charm and and is a nice addition to the character of the neighborhood uh so without going over everything I said last time uh I could open up to any questions from the board before we turn over to the planner for the barings proofs yes go ahead question go ahead so I want to clarify this attic issue so the construction official says attic is not to be used as bedrooms I don't know if that's meant to be a statement that he's not permitting it or just he's interpreting the plans that way but we need to clarify that but also the zoning officials report talks about um if the area and maybe you address this and I missed the number if the area so we're talking about this let let me read the whole sentence in addition the applicants professionals help provide the area of the attic with head room of 5 ft or greater if the area exceeds 60% or more of the story directly beneath the attic shall count as an additional story and will require an additional variance correct can you address that yes uh as part of the submission that I just gave you uh we added a added plan that shows a pochade area of the area of 5T or greater and that is less than 60% of the area below so it would not count as a story thus not triggering that additional variant okay so we'll I mean you're on the record saying that I assume we'll need that to be verified or someone will verify that it's on the Drone it's on the Dr he handed us to yeah but has but that was submitted today so the city has the city agrees with that because the zoning the zoning officer report shows it as a question oh I see yes uh you know as part of our submission uh if the board uh accepts our application uh we submit the drawings uh the it will go through zoning review again we will keep that uh drawing that indicates the attic story calculation and if there's an issue uh brought forth by the zoning official obviously we would come back here but I'm fully confident that based upon our interpretation of the ordinance and working in town for a number of years we're very familiar with how the ordinance reads and what we're proposing here is conforming and not triggering that uh threshold yeah that's fine just want to make sure because the zoning officer report was written before they had seen this plan so it was just a we just got those comments a short time ago so there's no time to get it back before them okay and is there any does anyone else have a concern why the construction fish would say add is not to be used as bedrooms I mean maybe he'd be okay seeing all these advis plans not have a problem with that but he he may he want to he may want to see if there's uh it meets egress requirements you know different building code requirements that you know this board doesn't concern itself with so when we submit for the uh building permit if it is granted we will indicate that the windows meet egress and that we're meeting all the safety thresholds that um an attic bedroom would need okay can you also relabel your drawings to indicate the potential uses for those rooms yes so it's clear to the construction official I will thank you that's all I have for now any other questions for thisness yeah I actually I do when you mentioned window egress yes so um does that include the Dormer window the the Dormer windows I believe are that's why they're a little bit larger Dormer so that's why so that was kind of an idea was part of that that attic sit the Dormer situation I've been brought on after the third floor bedroom really concerns me a lot yes I agree and that's why we want to make sure that they meet all the requirements I had a question about the scale of the Dormers I mean just standing there looking at this house and the house immediately to the right the houses are about the same scale I couldn't quite tell maybe these Dormers were a little bit wider than the house next door did you take a look and try to compare that yeah I looked more professional eye yeah my professional opinion I would say that the house immediately to the right I think their ders are a little bit too small um you know for the house if I you know was to be you know blunt but the house across the street I think they're more like the the the right size and ours maybe are just a little bit too big but if I was to shrink ours I would maybe shrink them by 3 or 4 Ines so a DI Minimus amount so I think that you know what we're proposing here I think is scale appropriate for this house as well as you know that the neighborhood I have a question um you mentioned when you're talking about the layout inside the house you said the staircase behind the kitchen is that interior where is that staircase is that exterior they currently have a staircase from the backyard down into the basement and they wanted to maintain that so when we extend stairs there were there's no B Cod door on them now so it's covered by a a a large roof overhang so even in storms water blows and goes down those stairs so what we did is enclose that area just took the same thing and moved it to the back uh this the same distance as the addition so that can attributes you know a few square feet to the overall coverage number so one more sure so so the only window in the Attic study is the Dormer window I think there's a window on the side as well is that a window or I don't know what that is yeah there's there's a is is on each side oh I'm sorry I'm looking at something else that's the fireplace you're right the I mean the the chimney sorry you're you are correct okay so there'll be plenty of natural light in that bedroom actually I'm more worried about e right yeah exactly and it's a it's a bedroom now or you know whatever you want to use it for right now but we want to make sure it's head room now it's all finished now yeah so it's there's a bathroom up there so they can really use it for anything they want it's existing the window size on the the space originally would have been existing non-conforming grandfather in before the building code so by making this change adding these Dormers we're actually improving the safety of the attic uh and making it a much more habitable space I would assume through the building department and the plans that would be properly uh sheetrocked do I use fire rated sheetrock and fire alarm interconnected fire alarm system do you want to I think we touched on this previously you want to speak to theall size of your lot area in relation to what is needed in the r10 zone uh our planner is going to go over that I figure instead of me saying it and then having him repeat it all it be just more efficient for him to address the lot changes the numbers the F the deviations and all that if that's okay with you I'm happy to to introduce it if you prefer no that works okay do we have any questions for this witness from the audience see none just as long as as long as you're done with the public I had some questions yes so um I I noticed that there was an interim um submission that you did that had a seepage pit in it and then you pulled that away um one of the things that I think the board maybe needs to think about this is really for your interpretation I think um the zoning officer had brought up that back in 2010 there was some unauthorized um coverage that was done and I just did a down and dirty kind of calculation just to see well how much is this plan right now increasing over what was previously there before anything was authorized and to me it appears that it's greater than 300 Square fet which would require some um storm water mitigation um but I don't I you know I'm not seeing any discussions on that from either the um the interim zoning officer or anything that's on the plans I kind of think it might be up to your interpretation of whether you want to go back in time and say um that things need to be rectified we maybe have this conversation with the Civil team see what they yeah our our engineer and planner will be test I'm sorry I was thinking that no I think there are good points to bring up we'll talk about that all right great thanks all right thank you very much thank you good evening if you can raise your right hand do you sore from the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes I do please state your name spell your last name Richard Keller k l l e r thank you and I know you've appeared before us and been qualified relatively recently any changes to your credentials since the last time you were here nope I just received my new licenses and I'm going down to Atlantic City tomorrow for another 14 hours of flood mitigation training so I'm I'm all good lucky you any questions from the board or would you like to accept them once again we will thank you much M Mr Keller please proceed with your testimony yeah I'm going to to try the high-tech route that should come up in a second we go um right now I will have two exhibits but right uh three exhibits but right now what I have before you is this the um the site plan the variance application plan that was submitted I'll go right actually up to our first uh additional exhibit I don't uh I think Doug was up to 82 I'm not positive so I'm not sure which number this would be we just added three and four already so this five okay so this would be uh A5 this is an annotated aerial photo uh the photo is taken from near map.com uh the capture date was uh March 3rd of this year and was prepared by my office today and uh just kind of cight I know we all know know where it is located but I thought this was a little helpful uh to just show the property um it's about uh property is on the west side of walren Avenue West being towards the top of the screen uh it's approximately 21 ft uh north of Springfield Avenue it is in the r10 single family uh residential Zone and the properties that are to the um to the North or to the right of the drawing uh continue into the r10 zone and the properties to the uh South and to the West are actually in the uh the B business Zone and the beacon at um at Summit to the right is actually in the mft zone the property is an irregularly shaped uh property 56.2 ft of Frontage along walren and that's where 75 ft is required for the r10 zone and it is a um an average depth of about 144 ft the rear yard width is about 65.8 the whole lot does contain 8,788 square feet so it is significantly less or about uh 177% less I believe than the uh than the 10,000 ft that is required so it is an undersized lot within the zone and it is somewhat unique in that it is surrounded both to the left and to the rear uh by commercial properties um right behind us the New Jersey dance theater our garage sort of butts right up into the uh about a 12T High block wall to the uh to the left or the south of us is the parking lot that serves both fores as well as the uh the Unitarian Church on the corner and then uh behind the property there's a garden for the uh dance Ensemble and then you get the back of the garages and ultimately uh the four-story uh building that is uh in the mft zones the beacon at Summit I would point out the Beacon at Summit is in being in the F mft Zone does permit uh 60% F and 75% lck coverage so we're we're contiguous to zones that do allow for uh higher densities I would point out that um one thing it wasn't clear on our drawing is um on the property immediately to our right there is a a garage similar about 440 sare ft similar to the garage that we have on our property um garages in these zones are freestanding garages are typical they do present a a problem when it comes to lock coverage on on all these older homes because it necessitates a much longer driveway to get back to that garage and it tends to drive up lock coverage um but it is it is more typical to the neighborhood and we certainly like to keep them I would also point out um uh Miss to was correct in saying that the house to the right was very similar they were actually sister houses that were built at the same time by the same Builder uh the people who owned the lot to the right at at uh at 14 uh built them for as two daughters so they really are daughter homes um and they were identical at one point but you can see from the aerial um the property to the right which is uh 12 walren has two Dormers that were added they are slight ours are slightly larger as you can see uh but you can see the um to the right side there was an infill to the to the rear um both on the right side as well as the same addition we're looking to put on is it was uh put on this property except they actually push the center part of the house out in about another two and a half three feet and then they also increase this this uh uh the whole right side so the entire back of this area is a three uh is uh is a two-story Edition we're we're not inil in that area we're just looking to do the one-story Edition in a similar place to where our neighbor did um except we're not doing any other bump outs as was indicated we are taking that 27 square foot it's actually about 17t stair now that goes down to the basement we're putting a cover over we're putting a roof on it so that does go up to about 27 Square ft and that's part of our building coverage so um the houses are identical uh were identical at one point but I'll go over some some coverage numbers in a moment if we go back to our our drawing you'll see on our zoning table you can see that again um required an existing required is 10,000 we're at 8788 um we are non-conforming as well as to width we are conforming as to front setback the side setbacks there's an existing non-conforming conditions that we are not affecting on mostly on the right side we're not doing in addition uh the total sidey yard um is an existing non-conforming condition that we're not affecting because we're bring bringing the addition uh on the larger side um Building height is fully compliant and then you can see um in the lower um the three variances we need one is for building coverage where we are right we're 10 square feet under what's permitted right now at 17.88% being 260 ft over lot coverage also we are existing non-conforming as was alluded to earlier in that there was some driveway expansion uh as well as a a patio that was put on uh quite some time ago and that did drive up uh building coverage uh that that coverage was about 320 uh between actually uh 275 and 300 Square ft that was added um without uh approval back some 10 12 years ago uh the net result is that our lot coverage exists today at 44.1 7 that's 38.82 we are actually reducing our over lot coverage by 350 square ft bringing it down to 4019 um that's uh and then that is that does still require Varian relief and that we're 457 Square ft over in the final analysis the um the f 25 is percent is permitted we're at 26.5 now as we add in that 314 Square ft total um and that's with covered uh uh that's with a a covered deck coming out a covered Landing coming out as well as that 27 Square ft of coverage over the uh um uh the 27 to 27 uh square fet of coverage um going down below it all adds up to being a net of 30.0 or 2639 so we are 442 ft over but again it does represent U while we are increasing the f um the architect has uh has uh sought to keep that to a minimal and work to put that in the back left corner of the property of the house and I'll talk about the proofs for for the uh the variance relief in a moment again just to go over impervious coverage overall there is a net decrease of 350 square ft and that is done primarily because we're building the addition over uh the patio and we are enclosing that uh area uh down to the basement and then we are removing the plan says 300 243 ft we're actually removing uh a little more than that I think it's 310 ft that we're actually reducing in there um our original we had uh we had some uh 47 we had some uh 67 ft I think originally um that's right 60 7 ft on the first uh plan we submitted and that was reviewed by the uh uh your planning department and then we took out more of the pavement we reduced it much further we took out an additional 243 so the net was 310 ft not 243 as is shown on the drawing but the net result is that we are reducing that um that coverage I would point out um one thing we can look at in terms of drainage is this property has existed with the current coverage for at least 10 years and there's been no drainage issues at the time uh the uh the additions were built there was a stone pit that roof leaders were taken to the the uh uh the water that comes down the driveway uh does go out into the lawn and it settles into an area that's that's sort of a low area between the neighboring garage and our property and there's no signs of standing water there's no uh there's been no negative impacts um from the drainage and we're only reducing that by an additional 350 square ft the if I just quickly go to the um the next exhibit I have should be A6 I think is that correct yes so A6 uh we have a view of the existing home and that has the Dormers that were installed on it and I would say I I think the Dormers actually um feel about right they don't feel uh overly large um and they do allow for egress windows so that uh an egress window means that a fireman can get in there with a with a ventilation pack on his back and can get through the window there size appropriately and so the size of that is really kind of um and the architect said it was was happen stance but um it is sized appropriately for egress if we look at uh photograph number two that's 12 walren next door that is Again The Identical house and they read very similarly except that um number 12 walren has a slightly larger porch on it ever so slightly has only two Dormers and you can't see it from the street but there is a significant addition behind the house that is much larger than the one we're proposing and then finally uh for 14 walren which is the next house up a similar rear garage a much larger um wraparound porch and a much larger home Al together on a similar size lot slightly larger I'll go over the numbers in a second if we look at the back of the property the rear of the existing house photograph number four looking East from the backyard you can see that on the left side we are not infilling anywhere uh in that area the addition is going completely on the right and it's an opportunity for the architect to unify and uh and coala some of those roof lines um if we look at photograph number five you can see um there's the house next door in the background at number 14 Waldren and you can see that um those are not as well resolved I think I if as the ones you'll see on the uh on the architect's drawings uh so uh Doug was very careful to bring those roof lines in so that they nested properly and all those all those uh layers come in on the on the um proposed design to create a layering of of light shadow um shade and it really breaks down the mass of that addition in the back so you can see this is this is the area that we're infilling in the back there's the covered stair that will be more fully covered per fully covered there's a this will come out to roughly line up at the back of the house and we'll have a new walk that comes down and the patio in the foreground will go away the basketball court will go away and much of these addition of pavement um that comes along just on the other side of the Tesla will also be removed and then finally looking to the rear of the property this is what we were talking about this is the area that um the water Now lies into we're proposing to remove that curbing remove the pavement we're going to allow for a long section of edge of pavement that allows water to storm water to rather than coming across as a point source allows it to come across a broad reach in that area and that means the water will still continue to come and sit here between uh the two garages where it has except there'll be much less runoff in the future because we're actually reducing the impervious coverage um lastly um A7 would be uh we did a little uh floor area ratio analysis um and uh we looked at 10 walren uh both building coverage and and F we looked at 10 walren both in the existing which is the green line as well as uh in the proposed you'll see the undersized lot 8788 um the next door neighbor at 12 is actually slightly smaller lot because it's not so irregular in shape doesn't widen out as much in the back and then 14 walren is a little bigger at 9228 you'll see the exist in building coverage and this is taken from the tax assessor uh Property Data records um uh for the adjoining two homes and from Doug's drawings and my drawings for for 10 Waldren and you'll see that um building coverage on 12 Waldren is up at 22.97 again where uh uh 20% is permitted um I'm sorry uh 18% is permitted and then you'll see that 14 walren is up at 25.9 to and actually I didn't count that big porch in the front I only count counted the raised deck in the back so if we counted that it would be even higher and if it comes to uh F you'll see that uh 12 walren is up at 2670 um so significantly larger than ours um in the uh well it's actually ends up being about 40 squ feet but it's a smaller lot so they're up at 31.3 F and 14 walr is up at 30.3 so these numbers are not out of sync with the character of the neighborhood and that's what really zoning looks to protect is the character of the neighborhoods if we um if we talk about the um the planning criteria um I actually really like um D4 um f variances because they are a referendum on good architecture and planning um and the uh uh the standard really becomes is how well has the architect designed the addition to integrate into the home so it doesn't overwhelm the neighborhood and doesn't overwhelm the character of the existing dwelling um the uh technically uh four variances follow the the cry Square criteria um which was need needs to which uh basically says we need to demonstrate that the site can handle the addition additional F without uh substantial detriment of the public or the public Zone plan um we think that uh you know generally we look at the purpose for the ordinance F ARS f for commercial we know that's a you know the more F the high the more doctors you're going to get in an office built or or in a store the more patrons you get for a residential we really use it to control mass and if we look at the usual problems associated with an F bigger than that's permitted it's overcrowding in the site um loss of air light and open space to the adjoining neighbors and overwhelming the character and scale of the neighborhood and I think um it certainly does nothing to offend any of those purposes of zoning so the um the standard as I said becomes how well has the architect integrated that mass into the structure so as to maintain the character of the neighborhood I think the layering of the roof lines shade Shadow and the fact that it's placed at the back left corner of the site where it can't be seen by either neighbor uh the the residential neighbors it can be seen from quite a distance from the commercial properties uh mostly the parking lot next door the Unitarian Church from the realtor but otherwise it cannot be seen from any of the uh uh other businesses that front on Summit AV uh Summit Avenue so it's really kind of an isolated condition and because it's next to those larger commercial zones it's got a lot of breathing room um you know I can say if we had three Architects design three homes all with the same F you could get three very different um looking buildings the same way you I used to say if you had three 200 pound men um they could all look very different depending upon I think as Doug once said whether they hit the gym or they hit the McDonald's um at lunch um similarly um you know arm length um uh a number of things can affect the way um that same number is so met it's a metric that when that when we go over that number it says you need to look at it and make sure that it doesn't offend any of the purpose of zoning and I think in this case it certainly doesn't um and it's aided by the fact that our we really have no uh negative impact to our our neighboring uh our neighboring clients I mean their neighboring uh neighbors um certainly not an over intensification of the use it's fully conforming us to the height fully conforming to the number of stories as was as indicated by Doug earlier today um so I think it certainly meets the positive criteria in support of the D variance which does require five affirmative votes um the other two variances for lck coverage and building coverage those are I think can be approved under both C1 and C2 C1 um that being that's applied uh where the undersiz nature of the lot along with the location of the lawfully existing uh garage creates a hardship and upgrading existing property without the need for variance relief and the uh the two the C2 uh criteria also applies that's the flexible C2 so sometimes known as the better planning alternative and that applies where the purposes of the land use are act or Advanced from the benefits uh and the benefits resulting from the deviation outweigh any potential detriment um on D2 under 4055 D2 the purpose of zoning uh first a is general welfare I think that this addition allows these owners to contemporize the home with regard to the amenities most people uh look for in in in 2024 um the kitchen is actually um what most people are looking for even if they don't have um four kids or five kids um I think it's an appropriate um appropriate amenity having a mudroom for um most of the homes I can't imagine a home we've done in sum in the last 20 years uh certainly not in this area that doesn't have a mudroom the um it also reduces the overall lock coverage so we are actually still bringing the site closer into conformance which is also uh advances General Welfare um we have generous uh setbacks to the uh to the adjoining homes the work is not near any of the adjoining homes there's no negative impact on airl open space I think that the Dormers uh as was Doug was showing I think they actually are um an improvement to the Aesthetics and we can quibble as Doug said over 3 in last 3 in more but I think we want them to be safe and I think they certainly in live in uh that top floor they don't really provide a whole lot of usable floor area what they do provide is good quality of light for that for that top floor um so we think it's a it advances section I of the purposes of the land use act it's it's a better better visual environment and finally um whenever we see these old houses and these old homes and we see additions going on to them um it advances section J which is that we are conserving a historic structure uh and natural resources within the state by not tearing this down not doing an attached garage uh we're keeping this 1920s house um rather than building new I think the benefits clearly outweigh the detriment um the negative criteria we see no substantial negative uh to the public good um part partially due to where it's located on the site and partially because of the uh the skill of the architect in integrating that mass I think it's cohesive architecturally and it feels appropriate to the site uh and I think there's no substantial impairment to the master plan I reviewed again your master plan update um and it's certainly not inconsistent with the intent purpose of the Zone plan or master plan um this proposal allows for an improvement to the dwelling without impacting the scale of character of the neighborhood uh and the amount of f is certainly similar to others on the street so there's certainly no negative we're not overwhelming the neighborhood uh and again we said it's it's uh it's contiguous to to many business ownes um so I think it's really an appropriate kind of transition space and the square foot at the amount of increase is fairly di Minimus I was told I'm not allowed to say di Minimus only attorneys can do but I think it's relatively minor so I think all those things the undersized nature of the lot the location on the property the skill of the architect the location of the additions on it I think um we meet the negative both positive and negative criteria in in uh support of the D4 as well as the C1 and C2 variances and I'm happy to answer any questions uh about engineering or planning great thank you Mr questions from the board for this witht I may have I may have one so uh on your drawing one which shows the um I don't know what it's called there's the existing survey and a proposed plot plan M correct was there any ever any discussion about making that parking pad in the back behind the house even smaller we actually started I actually started with um a turnout because I felt especially with kids it was much safer um to have be able to back out of the garage turn around and come forward out of the space um and that's why our first um our first application that was previous um the first iteration not the revised one you see actually had more driveway in the back because I felt it was safer um the client sort of read me the riot act and said we know the safety of our kids the cameras on our cars are amazing we know where our kids play we we we can manage the kids we want to take out as much pavement as can so we took it back to the same uh actually uh about the same level it was there when the client bought the property so uh we took out as much I don't think we can take any more out take us some Max we can take out still get a two-car garage and get those cars to maneuver and back out down that driveway um I'm in a very much of the same situation as our as your clients I have five kids um when I built my house I was not allowed owed to do that right so my my question is was that thought of removing more that pavement ever brought up besides adding was there ever a thought because that would bring down your loot coverage and that would be a variance that may go away yeah then I but then I would have I can at least fit two cars side by side so I can I can use either car if I cut it down any further I really start to um degrade the efficiency and the usefulness of the garage space because you're only going to have a driveway in front of one part of it um so if I was to cut that down any further I need to I need to be able to swing a car so I'm looking at the uh the drawing I need to be able to swing a car into the front of these two and park side by side or get at least one if not two in the garage if I if I park them one up the other and anybody who wants to take the front car out they taking the Explorer out you got to move the Tesla all the way out to the street move out Park double parking on the street move the other car out and all the way in so I think the fact that we're lower at 350 takes it back to the previous condition from when the client bought it um and and I think it's about as much as I'd feel comfortable with unless we you you're basically then limiting it to a one car garage um so when this property was purchased we don't know when this was done so my my point my question is there was already a um non-conforming condition when the house was purchased or do we know I don't I don't know that for sure I've never gotten a good copy of the original survey I think uh Christ Anderson provided it from her files but it wasn't it didn't scale in two D they was stretching one and not the other so I couldn't get it to be a good scale but I know that we reduced this amount of um reduction that we show taking it out what's left is basically the driveway that was there on the survey when they bought the property okay I have a question the um patio um that was put in by your clients right and what was the what's the size of the patio now and what's it going to be proposed to be there's no patio the patio it's it's going to be completely gone completely gone we're removing it in its entirety so so I was out there I was there a couple times the kids play in the driveway and that's where they'll continue play they ride their bikes in the driveway um the uh that'll continue to be where they but those no there's no proposed patio and the client realizes that if they want to put a patio in they would have to come back to this board okay that's my concern since the patio was put in without coming to the board to begin with I think um 14 years later they've gotten religion and they they I think not new homeowners not now understanding the process we've made them fully aware and they are fully aware that if they ever want to do any patio they'd have to come back to this board um they felt very comfortable in the backout condition and they felt very comfortable that the kids will continue to use the driveway for you know drawing on with chalk and for bicycle riding Etc and that they don't need a patio okay any other questions I have a quick one can you just go through the figures that are being proposed for building coverage lock coverage and F yep so they are um in the top right of our drawing and what we are proposing you want existing and proposed just proposed all right proposing um building coverage is 20.9 95% which is 1841 sare ft law coverage proposed is 4.19% that is 3532 Square ft f 30.0 is proposed and that's 2639 Square F feet thank you yep Mar you want to some questions yeah I again I'll go back I think there was a small correction that he made which kind of brings things closer to conformance um by the driveway removal I think you said was um 310 square feet rather than the 243 correct so again my calculations are are not exactly correct because um we don't have a really original survey from when they bought the house that's really scalable so um so I I can't say for sure if there's um a net increase of impervious coverage from before they put in the patio the front walkway and the additional driveway it seems pretty close it seems like a little bit over 300 Square 300 square feet um but I can't say that for sure I and I don't know what the board feels about that if they want to go back to what it was in 20 you know 2009 or do you want to look at it and say you know what they've done an a decrease in impervious area since um you know with this proposed plan does that make sense so so my my question here is and I don't even know how to word it go ahead try it they're over they're over lot coverage already Yes pre-existing condition I get it but now they're asking to they're they're removing 60 square fet of lot of of pavement to bring it down but they're still over does that make sense yes yeah so so are we I'm going to just I like the drainage plan let's do it we're we're lowering actually we're cutting we're taking out 310 Square ft 310 310 from but not from the driveway from the removal of the Pao no no just just the 310 is the just the driveway is 310 so we original on our drawing we we met a mistake and we said remove um 243 ft but it's actually 243 plus 67 so in trying to quantify um what was added in 2010 right without permission I came up with a rough amount of 800 square ft I would I I think again using a a draw that was scaling I came up pretty close I came about 700 725 but um yeah see now that difference could the scales I really don't know even if it's 700 Square F feet it's still 700 Square F feet that shouldn't be there that shouldn't be there right but then you go and start taking off um now they're taking off 310 for the driveway they're taking out 55 square feet of curbs um that's actually that's my estimate I'm sorry that's not that's just me scaling things off um you know they're taking out some the rest of the patio um yeah I I think the the net as we said we come down 350 total so much of that addition is going over the patio and they we're removing whatever was outside of that but it's almost a wash between the patio and the addition to the house um so the net is a decrease in total um of 350 so so we're reducing between putting the addition on and the stair and the stair of the basement we're actually only dropping another uh 40 sare ft so we' get 310 we get from reducing the driveway and another 40 ft comes out of little peripheral patios and walls that are being removed um where they exist now so that's where we get the net 350 and again I I only I my only reason for um suggesting that we don't do some storm water management is this is that the system has worked so well um and its current condition and we're only going to be reducing that and so um there is no drainage issue back there um we could if we drop a dryw it seems to be anecdotally that there's that there's good permeability because that soil the water that lays in the soil back there is going down I know they put a stone pit back there that they took the roof leaders to back when they did the uh when they did the patio but I don't I I can't see it so I can't analyze it but my suspicion is um it's a coin toss at whether what the condition of the soil is whether it's conducive to uh to a drywall or not but certainly the water can't get past that neighboring garage so the water just has to sit on this property and I saw no evidence of water standing and there's certainly no negative impact to the dra to the neighbors behind I'm not a big fan you know when you talk about dry Wells the only thing that's clean we can put into a dry well is roof leader water we can certainly divert that but um otherwise you're taking when you start picking up U driveway water or even lawn water then you're taking oils and you're taking uh pesticides and you're actually putting them 8 to 10 feet down so you lose 8 to 10 ft of cleansing cap capability of the soil and you put it closer to the water table so I I'm I'm of two minds on dry Wells I think and some sometimes they serve a purpose I don't think one would serve a purpose here um because I think we have evidence for the last 10 to 14 years that it works fine Marie forgetting the the Delta for a second would you say that it's just an overall net benefit to storm water in general if they're reducing impervious coverage and adding lawn back I I I would say that but there there's one one thing I just want to clarify there is currently a a stone pit in there to collect the patio anecdotally that when they put the patio and they took the roof leaders from the back of the house and run into a stone line pit not a drywall but it's just a stone line pit but those I looked at the roof leaders there's no backup they don't they don't search charge and I don't think there is actually a search charge allow but there's no search charge uh there's no sign that they're failing um but again there's no there's no viewport or or access to see what's down there it comes anecdotally from the owners but what I can say also anecdotally from above is that I don't see any standing water I don't see any uh water emanating from the roof leaders at where they go subsurface so it seems to be it's surprisingly well drained cuz Summit in Short Hills is known for some pretty high clay oils but this actually seems to be working pretty well and it has been so I think again there's a net benefit in 350 ft 300 uh 310 ft less pavement overall 350 ft less um and I think that if we had any condition where where water could go onto a neighboring property and cause a problem I would suggest a dryw once we increased our um once we took out a lot more patio uh sorry which took out a lot more driveway we took that drivew off the off the property off the off the uh off the design cuz I thought at that point um there was a net benefit to that reduction so we and the additions guttered right so the being captured and directed yep I mean they they're reducing um they're reducing the overall coverage on the property from what it is right now right they they haven't any they haven't had any problems um you know it seems that it would it is the project as proposed is a that benefit as far as stor all right we can certainly go over this in detail ination so just one more question sorry to be a pain no problem um are I know we're talking about this project but I'm very familiar with the history of Waldren Avenue and especially across the street from this area um isn't there a wasn't there just a project done in that area to help alleviate flooded flooding in that neighborhood I'm not a okay it wasn't it's just I'm not yeah yeah I I think there there is one proposed or there was one done um and I know the neighbors across the street I'm not saying this house contributes to that we just don't want it to you follow me so I know I've been in that backyard and they've had three fet of water in their backyard across the street yeah it's it's crazy it's crazy but I just don't want this to contribute to that but if we you know based on your your uh your explanation here it seems like it won't so yeah we actually get water some water from the parking lot even that comes through us so you know it's it's it's stable on this side I don't know the topography across the street but um that Summit you can go block to block and yeah completely different micro micro environments thank you uh do we have any questions questions only from the audience Mr for this seeing none would the applicant like to make any closing remarks before we go into the executive session um no we appreciate everyone's time it's been a long and arduous process to get through this point we've definitely learned many lessons along the way it's been a very just long expensive process to get to this point we think that you know it's very much what we're you know we ideally would have loved to had a second floor because our bedrooms are very small on the second floor um but we wanted to have a higher chance of success by what we think is a very modest addition to uh help it be a little bit more livable for our family so we just that's it thank you thank you so uh at this point we're going to open up uh session to the public they have any comments about this project seeing none go over conditions I would love to all right so the only condition I have noted is our usual one of compliance with those conditions noted in the board Engineers memorandum um as the applicants professionals noted there's going to be five votes required since this does involve a variance great so uh with that we'll open up to Executive session do we have any comments I do no you go go um yeah back to the the I'm a little confused with the not reducing the driveway so that it's just in front of the garage and removing a patio I me talk about things that are desirable for instance a mud room is desirable I think a patio the fact that they're removing a patio and keeping a driveway just doesn't make I don't I don't find I don't find that being a um a positive thing and like I said I think I think the driveway is too large for the garage so I'm I'm I'm confused about that they're reducing the with drive but not the not the whole the driveway is just a little that little portion of it that's getting reduced currently the driveway is this one yeah right this whole entire area of Paving so what is this what's this one why is this one only what is this yeah that's what I this is sh it's only this little portion Mr Keller this is this is the updated that is the latest plan this is the latest plan so this entire portion of the drive this piece okay okay so I would say almost 50% of this so the wait so now the numbers okay unfortunately though given this number is not accurate that area 310 310 in total 310 yeah the the patio 310 just a coincidence the Pao 310 well this see this patio is going away I know so I'm saying you're saying patio 310 you're saying the driveway is going down yes 310 just a coincidence down so with that the lighting uh picture there I apologize for asking you that question because my plan didn't have that on it I apolog so the plans we we did submit something on 10824 the original one was dated 9:17 the followup is where we we went from 67 to 310 we added 143 apologize for that question no worries I'm glad you brought up so I was getting confused that was1 okay we took out a lot of pavement any other comments my my and this is just my thing um but it's already being used as a third floor bedroom is what they say they're using it now as a bedroom um so you did request that maybe that be changed on the plan so that it meets so that it will meet the current code uh for that type of use that the building officialsw correct annotate it as well that the windows are eress comp that's that's well yeah well I guess the I guess the um when they do the when they have the it'll still be subject to a building permit process and they'll have to prove to the construction official that it meets all the code requirements if it does doesn't you know then they they have to revise it so that it does otherwise they're not going to get a building permit anything from this side of this I'm still a little troubled by by the the by the our Engineers comments about the uh coverage issues I get that they're improving the situa they're improving the current situation by coming down x number feet but I think what Marie was trying to get at is if we ignore the patio that was put in without permission X number of years ago and we're just looking at what they're proposing Now versus what existed before the patio if I understood you correctly there was an increase of you think there's an increase of more than 300 square feet is that still your opinion yes and so forgetting that they're reducing what's there now what would have been your recommendation just based on that yeah if I if I saw that and said let's go back 10 years and let's put this plan on it and it's you know it's a little bit over 300 feet and that would require some storm water mitigation yeah so you would you would have recommended some storm water mitigation yes okay so that that bothers me especially hearing Mr Nelson's comments about issues across the street um I grant that I I believe Mr car testimony that there's been no problems on the existing property but we all know that water problems are getting worse so just because it hasn't happened in the last 10 years doesn't mean it won't happen next year so I'm I'm a little concerned about that not sure not sure how concerned is there a way to to mitigate storm water issues without a dryw say implementation of a French drain or some other secondary means of storm water management yeah I mean you know this the same kind of you know Stone pit that was that he's suggesting is there right now that could you could do something like that I mean it still you know creates digging and you know filling up some some area but you know you could you could collect um you know the water from the proposed addition which is about 400 square feet you just take the um the water off of that and put it into a a dry well and that would that would do it um I mean basically you know the easiest way to do it is is some kind of some kind of dryw but it doesn't have to be a large you know concrete tank that doesn't this isn't we're not talking a large amount of water to mitigate it could be one of those you know those upside down um plastic tubs those work as well Storm Tech Chambers ctech is there appetite for the board to insist on condition of approval some sort of storm water management um yeah have we not in the past left required storm water management and left it somewhat open open-ended as to what that storm water management would be yeah so it just elaborate slightly technically the code in these cases where it's over 300 square feet of impervious coverage it requires a grading permit and I there's even Provisions in there that city engineer can wave that grading permit requirement if they deem it's not necessary based on the specific conditions on site so if you know we certainly have leeway in identifying the issue in transmitting it potentially to the city engineer to see if they even deem it necessary in this case if we're not sure as a board or you know if Marie doesn't have a particular recommendation at this point we can let that process play out if if we don't want to impose any particular requirements on the application tonight sounds like a reasonable way to go so I mean I think what I'm hearing is a condition that it be referred to the city engineer for review under that grading permit process yes and I imagine that's acceptable to the applicants yes okay great uh to wrap up I am personally in favor of this application um I believe that Mr Keller said it best in terms of uh the benefits outweigh the detriments um I I do agree with M tote that perhaps the gomers are on the large side but upon hearing that they accommodate um egress windows I think that's certainly worth a larger former size so with that I think we'll ask for a motion to approve I'll move to approve have a second I'll second Stephanie could you do the roll call please sure ice chairman lyit yes Mr Yuko yes Mr Nelson yes Mr Malay yes Miss to yes Miss Cho yes Mr Chuli yes the motion carries good luck thank you very much thank you all two woodmar minute bre you want it now or after we we do need to get Joe back in here too oh Joe's doing this okay uh we're gonna take a five minute break sorry guys no problem no [Music] problem well look at that that was official e e e e e e e e e e e e good evening my name is Tom I'll start by swearing if you could raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do please state your name spell your last name yes my name is Tom otman o a t m an and I live at two woodmar driveing Summit thank you and so uh I'll start by thanking the board for considering our application as you know this is our second time before the board that was not our original intention um U but I we are well intended and uh we believe what we have before you is a significant improvement over uh the prior plan and um the adjustments to the plan are really a function of feedback we received post approval from uh contractors and Engineers that came uh through the house to to bid the job and um what I came to appreciate what we came to appreciate is that when you have an 85-year-old house that is largely original uh that has some pre-existing problems and you're trying to update it uh as as people would like to live today you know eliminate servants quarters and small staircases and and so forth there are so many more things that you must do and should do in addition to the things that you want to do all of which are Complicated by having a house that is basically shaped as a Big Y with two wings for bedrooms and then a tail end of the Y uh where a a a a poorly planned garage was stuck on it sometime after the main structure was built in 1940 and so um and of course that's all um uh compounded very challenging to do within a budget so uh our determination was that we made too many compromises in the um original proposal uh for you for example we had a space constrained Master uh bedroom and so we decided to have two vanities and not a tub and the existing small little shower that even I have to duck down to to use and what we ended up doing on the new plan is we we got rid of a a um a hallway to expand the master bathroom and the master bedroom eliminated a bedroom moved that across uh across the floor to another area of the where we're putting the addition and moved a a bathroom to facilitate that in addition in the original plan there's a big knot in the center of the house where literally six doors came together in like a 3X 5T uh section of the home we had the door to the forer the door from the den the door to the bathroom a closet door a kitchen door and a um and a and a a basement door and so like it was very difficult to just navigate the home and so in the revise plan we've eliminated two staircases to the basement we've we've moved a bathroom on the first floor we put in a hallway we've opened it up we've put a nice size staircase into the basement and by doing that that un encumbers the family room which we then uh flip-flopped we we we we moved the the uh kitchen to where the breakfast room was and the breakfast room was to where the kitchen was all opening it up making it larger and um making it much more functional and livable as as you know one would one would like to desire the home and then finally it's a weird process right people don't really tell you what they think until you get to know them and then when you get to know them they say Hey you know Tom and Gretchen you're spending basically as much to remodel the inside of the home as you uh paid for the home and you're not doing anything to the exterior of the home and the exterior of the home uh really looks old and cold and um you know as we reflect upon that we uh we completely agree and um we had planned to put uh stucco on the new section of the home and when you um uh again have somebody come and and and estimate the cost of what that is they ask you well you know your stucco's already been uh repaired at least once if not twice on the existing structure what you should really do is take that all off and do it all over well that's like in excess of a $100,000 ticket and with that $100,000 we can do a lot to freshen up the exterior of the home and uh we think make it much more appealing uh uh than it is today and so that's really when we took a step back and we redesigned the exterior of the home and we were very intentional about that using uh many of the same uh cladding and the elements design elements that we observe all over town enhancing some of the existing Design Elements and then um and then um actually improving uh pre-existing problem with the um the soften fascia where the attic doesn't bent properly and when we get snow we get these big ice dams and if I literally don't get up there on the roof and eliminate those ice dams uh we have water backing up into the house so we have a nice uh architecturally designed s and fascia to improve uh the look of the home as well as the other features so maybe um you know with that I'll turn it over to our architect Kim and she'll tell you uh talk a little bit about the specific variances as well as Hollows thank you very much Miss ton Thunder I was going to say why do you need her [Laughter] here thank you we should just open it up to questions first to be sure oh right sorry any questions for the witness start with the architect oh yeah one how long you've been living have you lived in the home we've on the home since uh 2010 we've raised our family there and we bought the knowing that we had a renovation to do frankly we had no appreciation for how expensive the renovation was like we have copper plumbing running through through concr in the floor we had two failures because the two materialsa to each other and so we hadn't plan to do all the bathrooms over origionally but of that ex we do so things like that really it's or thank you uh sorry quickly any questions from the audience for this witness seeing none if you could please raise your right hand do you s airm the testimony you're about to give this matter is the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do please state your name spell your last name Kimberly tone t o n e thank you and I know you've appeared before our board a number of times including recently any changes to your credentials since the last time you were here here no changes any questions from the board or would you like to accept her once again we certainly will thank you welcome back this thank you okay so um Tom briefly I mean he did go through sort of some of the reasons for um why we're here I think that um I want to start out with um saying usually we try to limit the number of variances we're going for in this case um we went for variances um on the previous application which I don't know how pertinent that is but I'm just going to SU quickly that we went for variance for a very similar addition the clouding on the exterior is different of the size of the addition the roof lines of the addition the modifications to the driveway and the garage door facing the street were all Incorporated in that previous variance we were approved for the variant we submitted for permit we got notified that the permit was um ready to be picked up and by the time we went to pick it up because we were going through the thought of what we were really changing the variance had expired so we're back here for those reasons um the same Varian is for those pieces um and the new the change with the change of Christa leaving there's a couple other variances that have been identified that really were part of that same application but are haven't changed so I'll go through those um we have added one additional variance of floor of front yard setb back for a minor um bay window Edition and a dormer Edition and we also have removed the building coverage variant that we received as part of the previous application by reconfiguring some of the um taking some of the spaces away and repurposing them and using them using the space differently so um the the first areas that we got for this is the site plan same drawings that you have submitted um site plan on V1 um this shaded strip here is a second floor Edition the current first floor garage is 15.12 Ft off of the side yard setback um we are adding a second floor here for two bedrooms bathroom and a laundry room um this close to 2 feet on the second floor requires a side yard setback um variant this small shaded area here is the um front yard setback requirement for the bay window and the small Dormer about a foot of the Dormer extends into the front yard setback the existing um the existing front yard set back there is um 30.6 ft at the corner of the dining room where the where the dining room Peak like this corner here um that's 30.6 the setback at the bay window which is this piece here is 30.7 and the new Dormer is 32 like essentially 33 ft away just slightly shy of 33 the um the other variants that we're actually going for Vari is mostly pertain to the garage we have a front-facing garage now with a 15t wide garage door it's actually rather short garage door as well and we're going to replace that with an 18t wide garage door that's 8 ft tall to allow us to get two cars into the garage currently can really only get one the ordinance does require two cars in the zone so that would be moving this slightly towards conformance but with other modifications um the the um the other about that this is one that was added um recently when we submitted although the plan is the same as what was recent was previously submitted there's a small splitter of driveway here that is getting wider than the existing driveway right now there's the entrance to um to the driveway here we're not changing the current driveway situation is that the the grve goes up a little bit right from the street right in and then it pitches down towards the garage that pitch has actually cus some deterioration to the foundation of the garage that we don't know the extent of until we get into renovating so that as part of the previous um application we had requested that the board grant us some leniency that we may need to um depending on the extent of the foundation damage that we may need to replace the foundation or rebuild the garage in that current location but we won't know until we get into construction so um this small sliver of driveway here that we're widening is really just because we didn't think that much could grow there it's not a huge function functional space the current driveway would end at about the edge of the garage door the new garage door but we're extending it over to the mudro addition at that point just to keep it from being overgrown or there's not really enough room to plan anything there it basically allows you to pull your car in straight rather than an angle and and therefore pull your car back out straight rather than you know jocky it to get it out and it's much more functional and it's easier to get you know two cars in I I currently Drive the TR Ford 150 the the garage door is so low I can't even get the truck inside the garage and so we're just trying to make it if you will more conforming it is moreing fun is thank you yes um and in we're requesting a few variances for that um the the other variant that was um identified as part of this submitt which is really hasn't had a change I mean the previous submission was it had the same roof lines but another variance that was identified by the zoning officer or acting zoning officer Lindsay Knight was that um the minimum pitch on the second floor is required to be six on 12 the addition over this portion of the house has a 5.75 on 12 pitch and the reason for that is we were trying to keep the ridge of that addition a little bit lower than the existing um structure switch to you can see that here so this is we're trying to this is the garage the second floor over the garage new garage door kitchen um and breakfast room Edition here which is one story and then this is a link between the two where the roof line steps down a little bit this here is the one side of the Y on the front part of the house that that faces the pond this roof line here is drawn in as 5.75 on 12 because we're trying to keep this as secondary to this which is more of the main P of the house we we could have made it a six on 12 roof pitch this would probably be 8 to 10 in above the roof here it seems like a minor ask to have a main part of the house be more prominent than the addition um so we've covered I can walk you through the plan if you think that that's necessary okay um I think we've covered the side yard setback the front yard setback the garage doors facing the street the width of the driveway the um roof line and then the other thing that we've done is we've taken off the balconies that were on the front of the house those are balconies that Tom has told us many times as as we've met over the years years that um a lot of these balconies that are on the house and the E lines on the house he has actually had to go up and shovel snow off in the worst cases wor storms to be able to try to keep water from coming into the house so it's they're also um since there's been some water infiltration at the porches we don't really know they're they're constructed of metal the two that are on the front um of the house facing the street and then the one there's one at the curve of the of the front door they're made of metal and I don't know how rusted that metal could be underneath the layers of tar and everything that's there um we talked about replacing them but replacing them with um new construction materials that would would be a lot bulkier on the house and we felt that using that coverage elsewhere to get a larger family room and to get the size kitchen they wanted gave a better um overall Improvement to their usable space in the house so we opted to take that up and trade the coverage for the family room and we are still we're conforming on floor area ratio we're conforming on um building coverage and lot coverage sorry need some water allergies so um I we have we have our civil engineer here to testify to anything um related to the drainage if you need that as well um we have a net decrease in building coverage and a net decrease in lock coverage the decrease in building coverage is about 295 so um we haven't proposed any storm water management for that um we feel that this is an overall enhancement for the house it actually sets it up very well for the next 100 years plus and um they're going through Great Lengths to sort of restore the house rather than to um to restore it back to and add on to it in a way that is more usable and more um modern question question lots of questions um I don't know who wants to address this I I don't know if the applicant or the architect or whoever but the the landscaper had some I mean the Forester had some pretty extensive comments extensive he's he suggested there could be better screening in the northwest corner of the property he'd like to see land land for the front of the house and he's concerned about a um if the driveway is to be repaved about a a City tree 36 in diameter City tree that he thinks the systemed I mean I I think at the very least when get comments like this we we're going to would request a landscaping plan to address the okay northwest corner as well as the front of the house but also something about the tree the city tree that he's concerned about okay you want me to speak to that well Tom had a conversation with John Linton so I think it might okay be better for you to have that yeah so I I've had a relationship with John ever since we bought the house and we've been iming what he describes as these geriatric trees U along the neighborhood my directly across the street my neighbor just had four big trees taken out because they've been they're just dying and they've been ravaged from U Samy and I and so forth and so I called John to clarify what his concern was in the back and we had lost two Pines in the back during Sandy and Irene and then just a year ago we lost a third Pine from whether that I was away at the time my neighbor called me up and said hey the tree has been derooted you need to uh take it down and and so we did uh beyond that um a year or so ago my neighbor the Italians called on that very uh lot line that John asked about and they said Tom you we have a dog we were wondering if we could replace your fence with a new fence uh and uh you know I was we're were friendly I was happy to accommodate them in that request and and John's reply to me on the phone was like if you're neighbor's happy with it and you're happy with it I'm happy with it and so um you know obviously you're welcome to verify that with him and then additionally I had a conversation with the neighbors and they're willing to you know write a letter to the board attesting um you know what what's evolved in the back there uh and uh and so forth so I was that conversation subsequent to his written report from September 26th that was after his uh written report on September 26 that that conversation occurred last week so that addresses his concerns with the northwest corner if I understand what you're that is correct okay yeah and then just as it relates to the uh Tree by the driveway in front um that was a request of the board to keep that tree last time the project was approved and of course we agreed to that we want to keep all the trees we can as as long as they're safe and and and so we're happy to do that and we're happy to um you know just be very delicate in in uh you know as we um repave uh the garage because the the the pavement is all um marveling and and and it's just deteriorated it's it's just gone so I I still feel based on Mr linson's comments I I still think I'd like to see a condition that we have a landscape plan for the front of the house it may not have to be much but something that he he would look at and prove and maybe something to the effect that you're you'll consult with him when the driver work happens to do what you can to protect that tree is that sound acceptable we're happy to do that I mean that's our it's our desire to uh protect the trees I assure you okay is that okay with the board that's all I had any other questions for the split just so where the front door is still going to be the front door this isn't changing operation of that at all okay and not sure if you're the right witness I noticed there's a lot of driveway going away yay um do we have a number on that uh yes should be on on coverage there's a block coverage chart um yeah the driveway is around the house around to the back of the property there's we're going to call it a driver just and I say that because there's about 7 ft here so it's really not a usable driveway to get around the back corner of the house so um we're removing that portion of Paving I don't know that you could really consider it a driveway we had a basketball me back there before the kids would play Hoops back there and I don't want to have the pavement back there I'd rather just rip it out make it into lawn the little area to the left of the garage that's like a parking another parking area uh yeah that's a that's a spot uh there and excuse me but we have four kids and when everybody's home with their cars it just facilitates not having to jockey cars to get the what we hope we can get two cars in and out of the garage now and so it makes it much more functional I have a question on the garage door um it says the existing side yard setback Remains the Same correct for the garage but did you say uh uh I thought you mentioned an 18t garage where the existing garage door is 15 ft wide we're replacing it with an 18t garage door well wouldn't that that door is going to the right gar wi the garage is big enough to handle two cars the door is not big enough to allow two cars into it okay well when I looked at I mean it didn't look like you get an 18t door in that opening you would make it bigger the opening you were going to make the opening lighter and taller didn't look like as you as you face the garage there's a significant amount of room to the right inside the garage and so all of that extra 3 feet will be will be to the right and that's why that little sliver on the driveway facilitates you being able to drive your car straight in and straight out as opposed to you know pulling your car in an angle and then trying to jocky it back and forth to get the that's a that's a big that's not a standard size door that's a big door 18 foot it's like a double door 16 is a standard's big that's a it's that's a big door but I actually I mean I think a 16ft door isn't as Ive to I mean usually we put in we put in two single doors we put in 9ft doors so that the the larger cars don't have to have the mirrors tuck in and everything so 18 is usually is sort of equal to the two 9ft doors we would typically put in to a garage the um I will also mention now that you're bringing that up and this this is a variance for a front facing garage um there are four properties that that front onto this part of Woodland before it turns in front of the pond every one of those four houses has a front- facing twocc car garage so it's it's in keeping with the neighborhood for the scale of and each of them have two cars and two two doors yeah but not not 18 18's big right well this is the equivalent I have 16 and I get fulls size SUV and another midsize SUV f perfectly inside 16 ft okay 18's big okay I I think safety standpoint isn't bigger better uh well yeah but I I I mean based on what I saw it's things are probably going to change there because from what I saw at the garage um some major structure damage there potentially we're yeah I mean I mean my background is in construction and I was a home inspector and I looked at that it was you the garage is probably going to come down that's why we're not sure until we get in there and see what's what's going on and there's there's a good chance that happens um that's why we I mean our intent is not to tear it down but at some point the cost and safety of of taking it down and rebuilding something rather than and building something on top of it the back it's sinking well we have to excavate and find out what we're really dealing with I think that a lot of the deterioration could be from the fact that the driveway has has been pitched towards the house and allowed to just um deteriorate the block I mean we can see you can see there are areas where the water has carved away some of the dirt Andor driveway where you can see down to part of the foundation we just don't know what extent that is well constructibility is not really our per no no I I'm just saying I I can see this changing somewhat from based on what I saw yeah so what would happen in that case if the variance is granted tonight you'd have to submit the plans when you open when you open up the the garage you'd have to submit new plans for a garage and you might end up back here if you want to make it bigger right only if we would make it bigger what we're asking for is that we could be able to build it in the same spot that it's in I have the same concern you do on the condition of the foundation and we were very pleased before to have a flexibility of the board to say listen we really don't know until you open it up but if you open it up it's a disaster and it's more cost effective to replace the foundation than try to fix it peac meal I've had contractors out looking at it too um we would really appreciate that flexibility if it doesn't change dimensionally if it doesn't change the variance requests that's right we're we're not we're not asking for any of that do we know is there a um is there a maximum limit on the feet of the garage door for residential you know that not that I'm aware of I could try searching while we keep going I haven't heard I'm sure you could get a custom door no you can 20 25 I'm just there's a You Know It's Only Money but might require a variance for well I don't know if resal I don't know if there's a an ordinance that says your garage door can only be if I got a 50 foot garage and it's approved and I want to 50 foot wide door that's up to me right I mean God forbid that I'm not familiar with the part of the zoning ordinance that that limits the width of the garage but question yes I do well I you know I understand like houses you know 80 something years old and that you want to modernize the inside of the house but have you um considered the comments that were made by historic preservation commission that um they're they have you read thoroughly through them I mean they they have concerns about the changes to the outside of the house basically you know the garage the improvements of the garage helps keeps it in scale but in terms of um removing the historic character of the house I mean I understand the the balconies you explains why that those be removed but looks like it's like an entire outside the house was going to be I would actually I mean I can certainly comment on that sure the existing house has some some the existing front elevation that faces the pond has some steel casement windows that are rusted shut Beyond repair need to and not energy efficient need to be replaced there's probably about eight of those throughout the house the rest of the house is double hung windows so they've been replaced over time the house has been modified in pieces and you know it's telling a story of you know help me um once we take those balconies down the colonial revival style and and the the reason we want to take the balconies down is primarily for safety and for Tom to give up his shoveling job for when the snow accumulates and the water infiltration that's going to deteriorate the house further because they because of the way they're constructed so the so in taking that down we felt that the house would look a little bit odd quite frankly it's very Stark without without something so we chose to make a nod to the curved Dormers that are in part of the front of the house and put them in another place and add some add some um bay windows that face the pond to increase the view and light that come into those spaces in the front of the house and enhance the existing structure and take advantage of the fact of of how the house is situated on the lot and really change the view of the house and restore it to something that they actually like but changing the outside the so you're changeing the entire outside of the house it's stucko it's going to be look the stucko has to come off anyway because we've been told by several contractors that it's Hollow in spots and it's probably been deteriorated from Ice damning over periods of time and the water infiltration that's happened at the balconies and the fact that it's multiple layers of stacco so we're planning to take that off anyway and in putting it back they really didn't feel that the house has like a little bit of a schizophrenic kind of nature to it right now with all the half double hungs half casements so M were houses in around 1940 only built out of stucco or did they also build houses they built houses style around 1940 shingle style probably predates that okay there we go so would you say that this design then is in the spirit of this size home that could be in the shingle style around that area some sort ofage to that yes yes we're we're maintaining the the volume of the the front of the structure which is I think the most interesting part of the house excellent thank you I do just want to also jump in I searched through the code there's no restrictions on garage door WID anywhere in there Don you can go 50 ft there you go if I had a 50 for garage I wouldn't be here right now um on your plan on V2 it says reconstructed garage so so that's the you're just plan you're you're 90% sure you're going to have to re reconstruct it if there's if there's it I would think that that's what's going to happen but however if there's a cost savings to keeping part of it that isn't damaged we I'm sure the oans would consider that I we want to do it right no no right we don't want to Monkey rig it right and and and kind of uh this is we've taken a long time on the plan we really are intending to do it right and do what's you know we see it so often around Summit right if if the budget wasn't an option we wouldn't be talking about this right most people would knock it down the reason I know that is because all the contractors I talked to say Hey listen if you don't go forward let me know because I'll make an offer on your house right and they'll knock it down and and and they start so I'm just kind of just alluding to that um maybe to streamline the process that there be a plan designed for that as opposed to making you go back to the drawing board it's the same plan because we don't have the foundation plan drawn so it's the same drawing dimensionally it will change okay exterior would look I'm construction okay okay great um any questions from the audience for this witness you want to talk to the engineer or you want talk to okay great thank you m you bring up your nextt I I'm not sure we need him do we they want talk to oh you do oh pardon me no worries if you could raise your right hand do you sore affirm the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do please state your name spell your last name William Hollows h o l l o WS thank you and like the others you've appeared before us a number of times any changes to your credentials since the last time you were here no any question question my license are still in effect would you like to accept them once again happy to accept welcome back Mr you could walk us through the site plan well you've got uh properties at the corner of wood mirror that's one of the reasons why you have a a garage that faces the road because you're on the corner lot so it's really difficult to to not have to space the road um you've got the house proposed new entrance way in the front at wood mirre you've got the addition on South Side addition on the North side with a patio behind that the existing patio will be removed and you've got the proposed well the garage with the second proposed second floor for that garage um the driveway configuration stays pretty much the same with the exception of I had taken it over to the new house Edition this way we have a little bit more access a little straighter access into the garage and the area that's going to be removed of the drivew paved area is behind the garage into the West Side kind of an odd shap section of P and I think the questions from the engineer that I saw in in the review letter was a question regarding the AC units presly the AC units sit behind get be a northwesterly wing of the house and one of those AC units just happens to fit part of it fits into the addition so they'll probably have to be slid over a little bit that area presently is heavily W and not put it shrub around it in fact the next item I'm going to talk about I had to crawl through the shrubs to get into that area so there air units are screen and there's a question regarding a manhole in that area and according to mrman that is there's some pump in that in under in that manhole it has a metal lid on it I could not budge that metal lid it's pretty thick metal um it's not your standard like concrete manhole that you see in a road it's just a a ring metal ring appears with a metal cover over top of it and did I answer your question sir yeah so I we'll just put it on the record again that um it it looks like you're decreasing the impervious coverage we are I think it's 700 731 Square ft of less imperious coverage that has to do with the removal of the patio and the pavement and a lot of the storm water actually comes out and this is a large lawn area and it goes into that large lawn La lawn area we're going to raise the garage because right now the water goes into it we're going to raise that garage floor repave it doesn't change any of the paving that may take place by that 36 in stre there'll be no grading in that area but it it will change the U right opposite the garage door and that will be directed towards the backyard into lawn area so because they're decreasing the impervious coverage by so much there's no requirement for any storm water mitigation okay so I'm satisfied with the site plan as it's presented excellent any questions one real quick one do we know where that sun pump pumps to I do does it pump to the pond no good it goes out uh to the curve line kind opposite this wood miror on the easterly side of the is that like a yard some pump like it it pumps the water from the yard or is it from the basement um my understanding it it's from the basement they installed it out exterior I think there are some some pumps in the interior I think they go to that same we have have French you have to come to the microphone we have French fres in the basement that pump out into that catch Basin and that catch Basin also collects uh you know drain water on that side of the house and and the therefore it's caught and PP out great any questions from the audience for this witness seeing none all right thank you Mr H mrman would you like to make any concluding remarks yes I'd just like to thank the board for their time and consideration of our revised proposal we think it um greatly enhances uh the project over the prior design and we thank you for your time this evening thank you uh now uh we're looking for any public the comments seeing none okay all right conditions yes I have two conditions noted first our usual compliance with those conditions noted in the board Engineers memorandum and second as we had discussed was that the applicant shall submit a landscaping plan to the city Forester for review and approval the plan will address the uh screening in the front of the house or Landscaping in the front of the house rather and shall include attempting to preserve the tree roots of a 36 in City tree during the driveway paving and then uh as to the votes since we're only dealing with C variances here four votes are required to approve great thank you all right open it up to Executive session who wants to start I I can do this one um I I can certainly support this the the oans have shown themselves to be careful stewards of this house they're they're approaching this very thoughtfully um like Miss Cho as as an alumna of the historic preservation commission I was concerned with their comments um but safety trumps all and that includes the physical safety of our residents as as as well as the structural Integrity of the house and I understand why that they're taking off the balconies and and the stucco and some of the rest of it um what they're doing with the driveway is certainly improving the ability the ability to use it and that also is safety we want to be able to garage all the cars we can in this town removing as much of the driveway like Paving around the garage is is a big benefit um and they're dealing with an existing non-conforming condition in the garage and not exacerbating it so so I think that this is overall a net benefit and I can support it thank you yeah I I can support it as well the the setback variances are they're existing and they're really just building them up or expanding them not really increasing them at all uh the garage door makes sense facing front as was noted by a couple of witnesses and just just seems to make sense in that that kind of lot um you know the width the uh pitch of the roof seems like a such a minor thing I'm not concerned about that either not even sure I UND it's probably not even visually detectable it's you it's not an issue and I'm not concerned about the width of the driveway either it's a relatively minor increase and I also commit the commend the applicant for being so thoughtful as as Miss to mentioned and being very thorough in what their thought process is and you made a very effective presentation on behalf of your own case so that was very good I can support the application great thanks anyone else okay I certainly agree with Miss to and Mr Yuko um the benefits to this application certainly outweigh any detriments uh that I don't think exist actually so with that I'll support this case and ask for a motion to approve so you have a second second second second roll call please okay Vice chairman LED yes Mr Yugo yes Mr Nelson yes Mr Malay yes Miss to yes Miss chfo yes Mr chanul yes the motion carries good luck thank you all right final case for the evening 174 Springfield go ahead or all right of the applicants whoever is testifying if you could raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes please state your name spell your last name Ryan Horath h o r like Victor a thank you tell us a little bit all right so thank you to the board for hearing our case thank you to our neighbors who have come tonight um we want to be good neighbors um so we're here uh to discuss a backyard project where we're seeping a steep slope disturbance variant we're also seeking a single Wall height uh variance a combined Wall height variance uh the real purpose of the backyard project just to Pro provide a nice playing area for our two young children uh we often have to go to tatlock to play the ball roll down the hill um just to you know when we bought the house we saw oh wow what what we could do with our nice backyard but uh second part of this project is our driveway uh we're seeking to uh maintain a uh larger than typical curb opening we're also seeking to widen the driveway uh for safety reasons really we're on Springfield Avenue uh it's a very scary thing to back up onto Springfield Avenue especially where we are which is across from our so to the right you've got cars coming up from the bridge to the left it's a blind corner so being able to safely turn around within our driveway is uh very important to us and any family members that come over so um with me I've got Tom Graham from Dy Walker and uh can go through more of the specifics excellent thank you thank you any questions for this I have one yes um as you look at your house well by the driveway there's the head Edge between you and your neighbor who owns that hedge uh our neighbors own the H okay thank you anyone else any questions from the public seeing none if you can raise your right hand do you swear airm the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do please state your name spell your last name Thomas gram gr aham I'm a licensed professional engineer I'm a partner in The Firm of thyro Walker Design Group I have testified in front of a board in Springfield I believe it was this board on a Mullen or nullen application uh was a garage project it was probably two maybe two and a half years ago um and but I've also testified in many boards in Marsh bake Bergen Hudson uh Sussex County and been qualified as a professional civil engineer in all instances and just to clarify license in New Jersey is in good stand still current yes sir any questions from the board or would you like to accept his credentials we would welcome back thank you uh so we're here tonight for Block 341 lot 52 more commonly known as 174 Springfield Avenue uh the property is generally trapezoidal in shape 100 ft wide at the road and 70 ft at the rear and approximately 280 ft deep and is 0.55 acres in area uh it's developed with a single family dwelling uh the property has front edge along Springfield Avenue uh between Argy core in Edgewood Road and there are it's located within the r25 residential single family residential Zone surrounded by single family dwellings on both sides the rear and across the street uh the property meets all of the Zone requirements for the r25 Zone save for two uh the lot minimum lot area required is 25,000 Square ft this property is 24,29 square ft and the minimum combined sidey yard for the property is uh required to be9 90.1 ft and we're at 48.2 FT um and uh nothing's changing with respect to those two uh Dimensions this application will not alter the existing non-conformities uh topographically the property slopes from west to east along the Westerly property line it's approximately elevation 174 along the east it's 148 um the majority of the site is categorized as being steep sloped or having slopes greater than 15% so this is a plant sheet three of five of the set that was submitted to the board on the left you can see the property and the gray shaded areas are the areas which qualify is greater than 15% so you can see almost any activity on this property would require a variance for disturbance of your steep slopes so uh the applicant is is uh just proposing to create a more usable rear yard currently there is approximately a 26t elevation change from the west side of the property to the east side of the property we're just looking to level that out and to do that we're creating walls along either property line um and we have tiered the walls or built uh two walls instead of one large 10-ft wall we have a 4ft wall and a 6-ft wall and that kind of breaks up the mass of the wall and also gives us an opportunity to have some plantings between the walls to also soften the appearance of the wall both in their yard looking at the high side and from The Neighbors on the low side looking back up at the wall um it'll make it more aesthetically uh uh pleasing to them and basically what we did was we determined the elevation in the middle of the lot and then tried to create a flat rear yard and that gives us 10t walls on one side and 10 foot walls on on the low side in addition uh we're proposing to uh make some improvements to the the driveway to widen it so that a car can pull in and be able to turn around on the property and then pull back out onto Springfield Avenue um I had the opportunity to try to pull out or back out onto Springfield Avenue uh the two times I was at the property and it was a a little bit of a scary situation um so what we did was we used the ashto designed vehicle the currently the driveway comes off of Springfield Avenue and goes around to the back of the house where the garage doors are that area around the garage is really a little bit too small to allow for cars to maneuver properly and to be able to turn around and I we've demonstrated how a vehicle can pull into the property and make a turn and then pull back out of the property and we've only increased the driveway area based on the area of the template as soon as the vehicle is able to get back to within the confines of the existing driveway that's where we tied back in so we only made the driveway as big as we had to make it um we did get a uh and also there are 14 trees REM that was raised um in a comment from the Town Forest you can see on the left hand side is the lot um layout plan and we identified those trees to be removed we put x's in them there are 14 of them in the rear and that's just to allow for the construction of the walls and the leveling of the rear yard uh we did receive a number of reports from the town uh agencies and professionals and uh going through the uh Engineers report comments uh one through six are really just uh statements about the property and we take no exception with those comments number seven uh denotes that our disturbance area will be 15,9 15592 ft that triggers need for an approval from the soil erosion Cate control board and uh excuse me once we obtain approval from the board for the construction of the plan we will submit that permit and get that that approval um item number eight identifies the variances that are required and these are the same variances that are listed in the uh report from Miss Lindsay knight uh the Consulting zoning officer and those variances are for steep slopes disturbance the retaining wall height exceeding the maximum retaining wall height of 7 ft retaining wall and fence combined height exceeding the maximum of 10 ft and the maximum width of the front yard driveway and curb opening uh the curb opening today exceeds the allowable and we're not changing that um we're keeping the throat of the driveway closest to the road exactly the same as it is we're only increasing the area of the driveway in the back and then once we can get the vehicle back back into the confines of the existing driveway that's where we terminate any uh increase in the width of the driveway comment number nine uh she points out that uh we have a slight increase of about 12200 square fet of impervious coverage uh that requires some storm water mitigation the 1,00 squ Ft of increased driveway is approximately the same size as as the existing dwelling after uh discussing with your engineer our plan will be to collect the roof the roof runoff and divert that to dry Wells or infiltrator systems or um so that we uh mitigate the increase in impervious coverage item number 10 uh she notes that we have uh done our calculations and that uh in order to effectuate the the plan we have to remove 352 Cupic yards of soil from the site and our calculations were submitted and are part of the application for that uh number 11 yes there's a there's a small uh rock wall in the middle of the yard area that will be removed to uh allow for the regrading of the property um then lot comment number 12 we will have a split rail fence along the top of all walls as a safety feature so that anybody who comes up to the edge of the wall can't just fall over uh they are delineated on the plan it might not be uh is clear as it it could be but there's a line with an X in it that runs along the uh top of the wall side and parallel to the wall face so we'll make that a little clearer on the revised plans that we'll have to submit uh for her review did you just show us the scope of that this plan so we have um tiered walls running up the East property line and then coming across the back it turns into just one wall because we balance out the grade and we get to the west side again we have two tiered walls and then parallel to the wall there's a line with an X in it and that basically runs along the entire length of the wall so that anyone on the high side has to climb over a fence before they can get over the wall can you say that fence has to be before the wall well the fence is on the the high side of the wall right so that if you're on the high side you have to climb the fence to get over the wall not that we want anybody to climb the fence and and go over the wall but it's there for for safety purposes of uh split rail I'm lost is that the two upper barst with bars y j you have to climb over you can go through it you you could or we could put a mesh between it to make it so that you had to go over it so we will provide whatever wall that is required by the code and your your zoning officer OB or whatever fence since we on that is it okay if I just ask a clarifying question on that please sure so um your your detail on theit split rail safety fence shows this the rails the top Rail and the bottom rail and it shows a black vinyl vinyl wire mesh right the the black mesh kind of gets lost when you when you look at it but it's there to provide it it's really the the split rail is the aesthetic feature of the of the fence so when you look at it that's the detail that that we're proposing so you can't go through it you have to go over it that'll also that's only at the top of the walls is that right it's not on your driveway no along the driveway um we were going to propose uh we had two two details on our plan one was just to use large uh rocks or or Boulders um so that you you can't just and it's only where the driveway there's a small section of driveway that that we need a wall widening it in the great chain F only through that area so that you can't drive over the wall we put some kind of uh barrier there and uh instead of having a guide rail um what we've done in other uh applications as use large Boulders it does the same thing and the boulder looks a little bit more natural uh comment 13 regarding uh disturbance to adjacent properties um all these structures will be staked out before construction there will be uh silt fence delineating the limits of uh grading activities so that everything will be contained on this property and the silt fence is absolutely going to be a requirement of the Soil Conservation District and it'll have to be maintained throughout the entire um construction period uh note number 14 we did have one typo on one of the walls we had a top of wall at 16467 and a bottom of wall at 16647 they should both be the same elevation 16467 it occurs at this location on our plan with one wall dies into the the grade so at one point where the wall starts top and bottom of the wall are the same so we'll correct that on our plan uh we did show approximately 14 trees to be removed um subsequent to uh the uh the plans being submitted the uh applicant has already planted approximately 20 trees in the front yard um and he also had a conversation or an email exchange with the Town Forester um and they talked about uh his plan and what he did and the town Forester seemed to like what uh has happened so far and thinks that the project I think to quote him it's a worthwhile project um we can certainly Supply that email correspondents uh but they also asked for more uh some other landscape uh plan features so we'll prepare the a landscape plan to address his concerns but we already have talked with him and he's in favor of what's been done to date with respect to replacing trees to be taken down and then comments I believe 16 through 20 are just probably your standard uh conditions or notes that we will add to the plan we take no exception with those that's uh the engineers report uh went through the zoning uh officer officer report and she just uh identified the same variances that uh were in the engineers report and we take no exception with that then with regard to the other uh reports that we got many of them uh had no comment um and uh I anything that was identified the zoning officer said we need to apply for a permit we fully uh understand that and we will apply for all those permits we take no exception with any of the other comments in those reports not to keep you guys here any longer and go through each one of them that we have no issues with those reports I think that summarizes my uh direct testimony on the application uh board questions for this witness oh yes uh first of all I uh I F understand the need for the driveway and the safety at this intersection which is critical and I think this is a good idea however I can't understand why you're flattening the area south of this slot the the the South part why are we doing all this wall around why are we flattening it yes where you are here go go south um so what we're doing is no no not from here from here and Below oh yes this area oh um so the the um applicant has young children um and the yard area is not really conducive to uh playing in there you can't have a trampoline uh back there because of the pitch so they're just looking to level out the yard to make it a more userfriendly yard with uh with such a retaining W on both sides well again the property is is relatively narrow and there's an over a 24t change in elevation from one side to the other side and so we just picked the median elevation level it out and then that's how we determined how many walls we need and then we or how much height of wall we needed and then we took a further step and and split it into two to make it so that it's a little bit more aesthetically pleasing and even in doing that we reduced our usable lot area because if we only had one 10t wall we would have another 10 ft of yard back there but in order to make it a better plan we reduced the width of the yard but we still need the yard area to be uh flat correct me if I'm wrong uh this is wooded area this part um so we identified all of the trees greater than I think 4 in um that were on the property and they're really the ones closest to the house in the back back of the property there are trees but they are not on this property and we will not be taking them down I have pictures them all many are there on this part of the South part of this any trees in the back of the property are on the neighbor's property not on our property we identified all of the trees that are on this property when we did the survey and how helpful are these uh uh pine trees I think they are planting on this uh on the curb line they are not uh going to be uh of any use for the backyard a drainage or uh stor water so they won't have any benefit again the town Forester did ask for a landscape plan um I think that we will be showing some plantings in between the walls and so maybe some other speciment trees in in the backyard um but uh our our drainage plan uh will be wash uh because we're going to uh um take existing roof water and put that into the ground to compensate for the increase in impervious coverage associated with the driveway uh the flattening of the yard area actually will give a little bit more opportunity for especially smaller rainstorms to soak into the ground with the slope of the land water will tend to run off faster but by by flattening the the slope we're giving it a better chance to get back into the ground out of the 350 uh cubic yard you're removing uh what's the percentage we're removing from that portion of the lot uh the majority of it or uh it's this half yes so half the 350 is from this P okay thank you so much any other questions in regards to the uh 1,200 ft of drainage from the from the house why wouldn't you just capture whatever drainage you could from the property I know you're trying to offset each other but uh we're trying to offset it right to get back to to zero um but again we're taking water and putting it into the ground so you want to try to put clean water into the ground the cleanest water that we can collect is that which is coming off the roof into the down spouts and we now it's it's collected for us and we can take that and put it into the ground runoff from the driveway or pavement area I think not to piggyback on what the prior uh discussion was but that uh driveway will have salts uh oils and we don't want to take that and immediately pump it into the ground um down a couple feet so I think that taking the roof water is the cleanest water if there's opportunity to uh collect some of the other water we will do that we will make sure that the water that we collect CCT offsets the impervious coverage and that our system that we designed to put it into has the capacity to handle the water that we're we're putting in there it could have been a situation where we only have to offset 500 ft but we're taking 1,000 square ft of roof area and putting into a dryw designed for only 500 ft that doesn't work and this was part of the conversation I had with your engineer so our drainage system will meet her requirements um and as far as uh other storm water again by flattening the rear yard it's going to be a grass area by flattening it we're going to give any water that falls on that area opportunity to percolate back into the ground before it runs off due to the the change in slope so how would the water from the uphill property get to that flat area uh providing drainages for drain for no we're not no drains uh today it runs across the property uh once we put the uh the walls in there um depending upon the the wall construction there's typically Stone behind them so water comes in it will get into that stone and get down into that footing uh drain and go through or it would come over the top of the Wall go through to where to wh the footing drain the discharge you're onto the Well from the upper wall drain the lower wall to the right yep so so back to the driveway where do you anticipate that water to go well today uh in general um by The Contours and it kind of lines up with the line of the roof any water towards the front of the roof drains towards uh AR I'm sorry towards Springfield Avenue across the neighbor's property um water to the backside of that drains directly to the neighbor and across their property the roof areas today discharge at grade so all that roof water gets onto the ground it's onto the pavement goes across the neighbor's property so what we're doing is going we're while we're making the p area a little wider we are not going to be sending any more water across the neighbor's property either across the neighbor's property to the drainage system it's rainfield Avenue or across a neighbor's property then across the next neighbor's property to whatever the next road is and I I don't know what that road is my head no it would be the train tracks and then Park Avenue so you're not improving the current problem you're just keeping not making it any worse yes okay not EXA all right which is the requirement as I understand of your ordinance any other questions I have one the um can you explain so the split rail safety fence okay so the it says vinyl coated chain link fence fabric is it chain link or is it fabric is it how durable is it my question um fencing the chain link is sometimes referred to as fabric it's it's a it's it's a it's a vinyl coated it's a vinyl coated metal chain link fence that's good behind the yeah okay thank you right do you have questions so I do I do um you were mentioning that you're going to be in in talking with the Forester you're going to be putting some plantings in between the two walls well I I think one of the reasons we created the tear was if we put shrubs along there and that green space will help soften the the effect of the wall we'll provide those that information uh to the forest it to your office for review okay so I I'm I'm wondering if there's the opportunity to um you you know I think the lower wall to the downhill neighbor the lower wall is still a good 7 feet and then the upper tier is like six feet so the downhill neighbor is still going to see a large 7ot wall is there the opportunity to push it in a little bit put some plantings along the base of that downhill wall if you put some you know Green Giant Arbor vites those thing will grow to the 12T height of of the wall yeah I I I I think that uh that we can do that um the wall is not right on the property line and uh the walls do have some separation um I'm not a structural engineer but when you design retaining walls when they're teered the rule of thumb is that uh if a wall is 4T High the next tier that's 4T High has to be 8 ft a Beyond it or 2 to one otherwise the it really acts as one wall these walls will have to be designed as if they were one wall um because we're not separating them by as much and structural calculations are absolutely going to be required and have to be submitted to the building department and maybe to your office for for review before they can get that permit so I think that we can slide the lower tier wall back another foot or two and that'll give us room to have plantings for some uh Evergreens or Arbor what what's the deer population like in town they love uh Arbor terrible yeah well it'll be some kind of a deer resistant vegetation that we plan great yeah I I kind of just feel that if if it's pushed back a little further right now it's it's a maintenance problem right in between the property line and the wall um and then it's also a you a visual for the downhill they're looking at a s foot tall wall and then some Greenery on top of it it's and it's really only 7t in one point because the the the back property kind of bellies in at one point and that where that lowest point is where the wall is the tallest as you would expect um the the other thing I wanted to ask about was the driveway I'm just not sure I'm clear on whether there's a guide rail along there rock wall or you're not really sure yet we're it's probably going to be the rock wall we had put both on there um as a options um uh I'm not a fan of a guide rail along a residential property line I think the the boulder retaining wall will will do the trick um one they'll be there they're noticeable and two should uh somebody slide off of it it'll stop him from continuing forward um and um Mr Graham is correct that he and I had spoken about um the need for um a seepage pit of some sort and I I let him know that you know the requirement would be to collect something that is equal to the increase in impervious coverage and that I that if he was going to put more than the increase that he needed to have the capacity able to hold whatever is going in there so if you were to take you know I don't know the the driveway area and throw that in there too I don't want to just I don't want to just say well we're collecting it all I need I need some assurance that it's going to be the the capacity that's going to hold whatever's going into that so he and I discussed that as well so the implication of that is he still needs to submit a plan to you for review and approval right yeah uh I'm still looking at this area between Edgewood Road and the railroad that's that whole area sloping that way towards the railroad yes and uh I don't recall any of these it's a Hy area and I don't see any walls being constructed in between to allow for uh flattened areas I don't think it's a good idea I don't think it's a good idea partial of it yeah half of it of that the fun extend to the tip of that why don't we why don't we go through that in executive session no I am asking him the question because he's the engineer so uh the owner is trying to maximize uses of his property which he's entitled to do in order to do that he requires a as much of a level flat yard as he can get and that is what this plan provides it has to be justified uh because of some kind of of a hardship I don't see the hardship here well the hardship it doesn't have to be justified by a hardship that's one potential branch that they can go down for approval as a C1 hardship under C2 they're I assume they're requesting that the positive criteria outweigh any negative impacts of the application so keep in mind there there's two different potential Avenues of a so there is a an ordinance here and we are giving issuing very or relief from the strict application of the Dr and it says there is uh there needs to be justification something to justify why we are adding or removing such a huge amount of soil from this certain area just for kids to play uh this is not a good justification I'm sorry but that's my opinion uh just wanted to clarify that right that's the one Avenue and just to correct that statement that they need a hardship because that's not the case that is one Avenue but if you feel that the positive criteria do not outweigh the negatives that's for deliberation later okay y you well let me okay could could you remind me and is this a c 2 or a c I imagine they are asking for propose approval under the C2 analysis remember C1 is the hardship analysis that there's some condition of the property that makes it impossible um C2 is positive outweighs negative but C2 also looks at public good yeah that that's part of the positive criteria okay and and let me see if I can try to phrase it slightly different because I think I've got some of the same concerns as Mr Malay that there is a significant natural slope on its way down to the railroad tracks and this is basically putting a step in the middle of the slope how does this benefit the surround not just the property owners but there's supposed to be a public benefit from this as well well there's no public detriment from this um this Pro person is just improving their yard making it more usable for them there will be no negative uh impacts associated with the drainage uh some trees are coming down but we are going to be replacing trees to the satisfaction of your board the overall project will not be a detriment to the surrounding uh properties and just to clarify that right they don't need to show a public benefit public benefit is one positive criteria that they can show obviously not all personal improvements are going to result in some public benefit but as stated it can't be outweighed by the detriments that are imposed to the surrounding properties to the zoning ordinance to the master plan we often refer to safety as a primary concern well I would have to imagine that right you making increasing the usability therefore the safety from the backyard is a positive criteria there there are plenty of backyards in this town that are not suitable for small children to play in and people deal with it but this this makes it saf and more us so this is sounding like deliberations is this a good idea it does sound a bit like deliberations I think we should get through the testimony um do we have any questions from the public for this witness please questions only at this time you'll have a second chance later to make comments and tell us what you think about the well sir please state your name and address uh Robert spanheimer 166 Springfield Avenue thank you sir I don't quite understand the height of the wall that's going to be on on our property the First wall but you're taking you're coming down approximately 20 feet in total from the top to the bottom so you're taking the middle ground actually it's 10 ft down going into our proper correct uh so you're on the low side well on on the low side so again there's about 20 ft across property middle elevation this property right so in order to get there we have to lower this side by about 10t raise this side by about 10 ft right uh we're doing that with walls we have two walls in general W but the outside wall here is going to be a retaining wall got both walls are retaining walls and retaining walls on the other side so the the retaining wall that we have are you saying it's just going to stop with the 10 ft no it's can we just try to be sure we're talking into a microphone please sorry uh the wall starts uh at the end of the driveway it's actually zero feet right there that's where the the wall starts it ties into the the grades then as we progress across the property uh at this point the lowest wall is 5 ft high and then back here how can it only be 5T High First wall is the first wall is 5T High then we come back and we have a second wall again 5T high that makes the 10 foot difference when you're doing this you're going to you're going to put all the dirt down you're going to bring it down or put it in new new soil correct we're going to build a wall and back fill against it right so you're got to back fill against that and you're saying that that wall is only going to be the the bird it's two walls back you know back to back the First wall is 5 feet then we're going to go back a couple of feet and then have another 5 foot wall so the total of the walls adds up to 10t and what's going to be in between the walls uh it's uh it's a FL I think there's a uh there's a 1ot great distance from the bottom of the top wall to the top of the bottom so it's only one ft one no no no no it's a I believe it's 4T and there a one foot change in elevation across that there's a one foot all right so you're saying it's going to be 4T in between fourt in between them yeah that's right 5 foot wall fourt back 5 foot wall okay it's still going to be a disaster let me ask a question I I'm not sure this is what he's trying to get at from his yard what will the adder of those two walls look like what would be the parent height of that the adder of those two walls First wall about 5 ft High then the second wall will be about 5 ft high but he'll only see the second wall correct the depends the outer wall he won't he won't see any of it the the the retaining wall elevations will be visible from inside no the this wall from the ground will go up right this wall from there from the applicat yard goes down so standing in this yard you're looking at two 5ft walls to get to the plateau that we're creating then on the far side you're looking at two five walls to get to the high side um okay so wait a second so so he will he will see he will see the the Terrace he will see the Terrace take a line like this phography right looks like this what we're proposing to do from here there's one wall second wall w a wall w a wall I I missed but with tie into these is great so from here you're looking at two walls and from in this yard you're looking at two walls so from I didn't C didn't remember his name but from that gentleman's yard you will see the two walls that's right okay you'll see the lower two walls from this yard you'll see the upper two walls got it now I understand understood so the the plantings between the two walls will be very visible to Salman's backyard okay and again they're meant to help soften the appearance of the wall and based on the comment from your engineer we'll also have some plantings along the bottom of that lowest wall I I know you have a detail of the tning wall on here but I think an overall site section indicating that relationship that you just sketched out would probably help this sub tremendously so any other questions from the audience please step forward questions yep how you doing everyone Ricky Choy Chi I'm 69 Edgewood which is the lot that abuts the southern border of this lot correct it's it's the one that runs parallel down here um you know there's been quite a bit of slope there both coming from my property down to 174 Springfield and then continuing on down the hill if I were to considering consider doing some work in the future around around my property where it touches 174 Springfield are there some EXT extraordinary drainage considerations I would have to consider since this is going from something very slope where the water has been flowing down naturally for some time to something that has a little bit of a steeper slope cuz we're cutting out to put a wall and then just an expans of flat uh land there so all the activity is going to be on the applicant's property if you're doing something on your property you would have to make sure that you tied into the grades along your property line and whatever the drainage was leaving your property across your neighbors that's what you would have to control yeah I'm just saying that you know of course when it's sloped and everything moves down the hill there's less of a problem when things become very flat all of a sudden it potentially creates more of an issue so I just want to know looking into the future here a little bit without knowing of course what I want to do it are there just some some different conditions that are created compared to now I I I don't believe so I think the only thing that you would have to beern with was the rate that you're letting it leave your property um this area is still going to drain from west to east we're just flattening it out and it'll make it uh uh a slower travel across this lot um for the low intensity storms you got to give this area more opportunity to soak in if you are talking about events where there's a lot of water that's coming across that'll that'll just continue across it's it's not going to uh impact I don't believe in any way anything of your property yeah I just want to avoid a situation in the future where perhaps there is now standing water there right since there is no pitch I understand there's drainage of course when you build this kind of infrastructure here but certainly flat land will hold water a little bit differently from slope land that's all it it will but again this will still have some positive slope we can't create a perfectly flat area because then it wouldn't drain anywhere so water moves from west to east it's going to continue to do that we're just creating an area of a plateau in between the the two property sure but to be very clear though from wall to wall right bottom of the wall on the left side to the top of the wall on the right side that is currently the same height all at 160 uh yeah is we in looking at this after we submitted into the plan that we got from the engineer uh comments we got from the engineer we're probably going to lower this W just a little bit to make sure that we have positive positive drainage across the property and we're also based on our comments going to be moving that wall so there will be some minor plan changes but it will have positive drainage across the lot when we're done okay yeah it it's a bit hard to you know ask smart questions when the numbers May potentially change here but duy noted thank you very much that's it for me thank you and we can maintain jurisdiction from a storm water standpoint for two years post yes um and I imagine that's a condition the board would like to see here if it's inclined to proceed with this uh approval so normally what we'll do in these cases that do address drainage in some sort of manner is retain M storm water jurisdiction for a period of 2 years after completion of construction so that if for some reason it does result in some negative impact uh on any of the neighboring properties gives them an opportunity to bring it back before this board and the board can then rehear any issues and require any relief I have a a question that's kind of not a little bit really Rel at to this project if I have a gravel driveway now and I pave it I have to put in a storm water management system or catch my water can't go out into the street is that correct I think so yes it is so is that considered dirty water or clean water when it's on a when it's on a driveway it's usually considered Dirty Water Drive okay so why would I have to capture that water when we're being told this applicant doesn't it's the same you have a driveway that's that we know right now is draining onto the neighbor's property we know right now so the tradeoff is to catch the roof but still allow a problem to exist when I when I feel I I think we should address that what I heard um the engineer say was that the the roof leaders are going onto the driveway and and more water is going onto that driveway correct we're taking that that water off of that driveway and putting it into dry Wells so you're reducing the amount of water that's on the driveway is that what I what I heard was that that your roof leaders are no longer going onto the driveway and they're going into this drivew uh yes but the area the roof is approximately equivalent to the area of the new driveway so it ends up being a wash okay so it's not adding well it's definitely not adding but we're not improving the situation that's already bad from the driveway but I think that's a historical like I don't I don't think that's not being created by these applicants correct I get that right but if we have the opportunity to improve it I I think the board should should at least in my opinion because we do talk about storm water being a big issue in town um we're saying okay to this but you're doing that meanwhile you know the neighbors are if we could help the neighbors and and and solve their problem that might you know be more beneficial to them and you know that's just my thought thank you thank you is there anything you'd like to say information no just uh thank you all for your consideration uh we do really want to be good neighbors we think by taking a 20ft slope and making it a 1 foot slope that should really improve the water runoff as opposed to creating a worse situation in that regard so uh thank you all again for your time consideration thank you yes uh so now we'll open this up to comments yes from the audience please Anna spanheimer 166 Springfield Avenue all right if you could keep your right hand raised do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes and can you please just spell your last name for the record s p o n h e i m e r thank you I've lived on 166 Springfield Avenue for 30 years one day I'm looking out my window in the back on 69 Edgewood they're cutting down all the trees they cut down maybe 30 trees I went to them and I gu asked them what are you doing you're cutting down these beautiful trees for what reason you have no reason to cut down these trees do you have a permit no permit I came to the city I said what is going on these people are cutting down these trees no permit Mr Linson came out took a look at everything made them get permits after the fact that they had cut down the trees I couldn't believe it he went to them and he told us that they would do a garden type thing that was there before Where Mrs zitar lived it would be beautiful don't worry about it it's going to be fine that never happened okay then they went on to 174 Mr Falls he cut down all those trees so they have no basic trees on that property now they're telling me that they're going to cut down more trees off of that property then he went to my neighbor on the other side and he had the tops of the trees cut down he cut down those trees why did he cut down those trees he wanted to see the view in New York the views from the top of his house on 69 spring on Edgewood Road wait which house you talking 69 Edgewood what comments are you making about the applicant's problem that's what I'm just telling you what's happened in that area we just want to make sure we're keeping it relevant not confusing the property so if you could focus on this particular property that's what we're Focus well they're cutting down more trees they they now which they are you talking about 174 is cutting down more trees to to do this project now they're saying that they put down all those trees in the front and that's going to take care of replacing the trees that they're cutting down how does that work those trees that are being cut down on their property should be replaced with other trees what what has those 20 trees got to do with the trees that they want to replace that have to be replaced that doesn't work and there's no Landscaping issue here there's no Landscaping plan at all I am doubtful because of what happened in the surrounding areas surrounding uh property that this may not happen at all who's to say that they won't plant these then I walk out and I see this 10t wall right now I walk out on my deck and it's beautiful I see trees whatever is left and it is beautiful now I'm going to walk out on my deck and I'm going to see a 10 foot wall for what reason are we building this 10t wall going all the way around that property I understand understand that he has children and what he wants to do but I can't how am I going to walk out on my deck and stare at a wall when I had this beautiful area back there the other thing is the drainage on the side of my house I had to put Boulders up around my generator because the water is coming down from his property is I had to put Boulders around that generator going around my deck underneath on the side I have pictures if you want to see Mr maias was out there in 2016 because there was there was an issue now that issue has not been fixed because now that water is still going underneath my deck taking the Pebbles and stones that I have shifting them all the way down into my Pakistan that has not been corrected at all since 2016 so I don't know what Assurance is I'm going to get that this is going to fix this issue because it hasn't fixed it in the past I don't understand and it's just coming down off of that slope down around my generator which I had put in and all and I'm afraid that it's going to ruin my generator and get into my basement and then what and I think I've basically covered everything except I'm very upset about the trees I love my trees and I went I I couldn't believe that somebody would cut down all those trees to see the views of New York I couldn't understand nothing was done about it in this city that's another property okay that but that incident was not the applicant's property correct what's that that incident you just talked about people somebody cutting down trees yeah he he went on 174 also not with our no he wasn't there they had they had okay so it's not the applicant that's what I'm saying no okay thank you okay thank you thank you just very I'd like to just add to to the board that the 20 trees we planted along the front are not the only trees we ever planned to plant for this project um it was simply a demonstration that we too love trees um enough you know that we added 20 even before we even started the project so we're we're very committed to adding trees along the walls in between the walls um I want to mitigate you know their visual effect of seeing a wall it seems that we have a plan that we're already discussing to to mitigate that so I just want to say we really care about trees don't want to you know we're going to have probably three times more trees than there are currently so that's all I wanted to add thank you can I make one more statement yes sir please I have to swear you in so if you could please raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth the truth and then just once again briefly state your name and uh last name please Robert spanheimer thank you okay I've lived in Summit for 48 years um raised children over right in school on the other side of town and then moved here in 1990 like my wife said um I understand where Ryan's coming from and that he wants to have this nice backyard for his kids which is which is fine but Sumit has I mean we have great Sports we have great Parks it's a beautiful beautiful city I don't don't understand and haven't seen where neighborhoods have been changed because of a sight of construction and basically it's what you're talking about is the well the neighborhood at least our house and the houses behind us it's changing the atmosphere and we've been here a long time and hav it just changed for no particular reason except to have a field which could turn into I mean you said it's not going to be a a swimming pool but you could change your mind quickly on that anyway that that's my last comment thank you thank you first of all conditions oh that's it for comments anyone else okay um I have four conditions noted uh first is compliance with those conditions noted in the board Engineers memorandum second that the applicants will should submit a landscaping plan to the city Forester for review and approval third the applicants shall submit a storm water management plan to the board engineer for review and approval and fourth that the board shall retain drainage jurisdiction for a period of two years after completion of the construction um and once again we have just C variances associated with this votes are required to approve great so let's uh open it up to executive session comments from the board I'm really worried that we've been set some presidence here uh in allowing this the whole neighborhood would like to have War I just I just want to jump in very briefly to correct something that every application stands on its own that one approval or another is not one that sets a PR let me interrup to make that I'm 100% aware of that and I have been on uh that side once where somebody told me uh that uh we do not set presidents and that is incorrect we do once we approve something it is a presidence and no matter what we say this is going to happen it already has Mr mle this is not the first yard in Summit that has been level and use retaining walls to do so so for you to sit there and say that this is setting a precedent is false I'm not saying this is set this is it's not we have set presidents in the I'm saying we have this board sat president so many times and this is going to be but it's not going to happen tonight we're not setting how am I how am I going to tell because this this area was slopes from up to bottom all the neighbors would like to do if if I have the uh property of 166 I'm going to put two walls and I don't care about the railroad down there and I think the point about a president is if we approve thison night and someone else comes to do it they can't we can't they can't say you have to prove me because you're approving this other one that's the point of a precedent that's correct they can do that but we will have so many uh uh uh cases that follows because you know uh it it won't be a reason for them to uh to say you you have approved that but it will encourage applicants to come up before this board and say hey why are you treating me differently all right I I do need to clarify because there misstatements there we as I mentioned before we're analyzing in this application the board members are to be analyzing this application taking the positive criteria taking the negative criteria and balancing those out if you deem that this particular application the negative criteria outweigh the positive criteria and you vote to deny it that is your purpose here as the board to weigh those factors but precedence is not something that the board sets with any of its decisions each application stands on its own so please make sure that your analysis this evening focuses on what are the benefits what are the detriments to make sure that this decision is made properly okay I can try this a little bit differently um it strikes me as a permanent solution to a temporary problem um children want to play ball for a few years this is geography that has been in place for thousands of years and the benefit to keeping I mean what was the old add add tagline you know you don't don't mess with Mother Nature um this is really changing the topography in that area of town um for a problem if it's a problem that won't be there in 10 years and I think that the negative of a permanent change in the geography is not outweighed by children having to do something in their backyard that doesn't involve a ball what's the negative from the change I wish I could quantify it and I really wish Miriam were here tonight um because I know in so many other of our professional areas where somebody's gotten a morphous fear you can't respond to it logically um so I'm trying to come up with with a a a more delineated way to say this other than that this is a slope that has existed for thousands of years and people have have have dealt with it and lived with it and raised their families with it and Managed IT I don't see the benefit of suddenly changing that the the house sits on a slope right as do many of our houses more severe before they leveled it enough to actually build a structure so I mean thousands of years ago there was no house so which is a good point because every house built there has level part of the property and I I'm struggling with finding negative criteria here I mean I I not saying I like the application I can see some positives I'm struggling to find what we legally called negative criter I know and maybe I I can kind of hopefully add to that there so we have a steep slope ordinance right steep slope ordinance requires that you cannot get approval of anything over a th000 square ft of disturbance unless you apply to the board for a variant right so your comment points to me that your belief here that they're disturbing 72.2% of the steep slopes 16,000 over 16,000 squ Square fet are on the property so 3/4 of that figure is well in excess of what the city code allows and you believe that's a a detriment beyond what our steep slope requirements are um thank you uh I would like to comment on that uh the alness came around for a very good reason uh disturbing the nature as we say is a very important uh action that human beings are doing and now we have a very sophisticated machine very powerful machine we can move mountains but uh the nature itself is stronger and better than what whatever we do uh we we can have we can flatten the whole town of summit if that's what like we don't want that we want to keep the beautiful Summit the hilly areas of it we want to keep the nature as is thank you so much M CL because I appreciate your coming uh let's look at other things what are we replacing them dry WS dry WS what do they do in a rocky area this area is Rocky and we are put think here a drivew to solve the problem God this not going to happen in this rocky area you put four DS they're not going to do much they're not going to uh peculate and ser as much as we think uh and in fact this area itself I'm very familiar with it especially this curve and I encourage the uh uh I commend Ed the engineer for modifying the entrance and the safety of the driveway but I don't see any reason why we should go below that and uh flatten an area for for 230 uh 230 cubic yard of so removal for what and we are we're removing a lot of trees that you can see now they still exist putting them on the curve side what to to make the the the uh Springfield Road look better or to isolate the building from the street I I I I I can't I can't really swallow this I'm sorry well and you're right that there are some beautiful mature trees in the backyard um and I also noticed the environmental commission's comments about managing storm water runoff with additional vegetation rather than dry Wells um this the size of this project is just what I have an issue with also just you know it's one thing if you want to disturb the slope because you don't have a patio um but this is the entire backyard and creating walls and I just I agree I don't I can't support this I mean I don't I think it's just way too big and it's the whole yard and lot lot of walls anyone else I'm struggling with this uh I agree uh this is a massive project um I was out there today so I'm glad to hear that you weren't the ones that cut the trees down but I still am shocked by the the the the slope there um I'm struggling with it only because we always talk about what's the benefit to the public well the neighbors are the benefit to the they're they're public and there's no resolution to their problem with this project uh we're doing a tradeoff to collect the roof as opposed to water that we know we currently know right now is creating a problem for the neighbor um I just I just believe me I I I have five kids I I feel for you you know and I get it um I just something's I'm really concerned about uh the drainage um when we have a a massive storm like we had in August you know and someone one sent pictures out of water running down somebody's sidewalk now I don't know if that was in Summit but it's somewhere and somebody's dealing with it so how do we know that won't happen here you know we say it's a small storm uh you maybe the extra soil being moved around might help the drainage I'm just I'm just not 100% convinced so I don't think the the the pluses outweigh the minuses uh I still haven't heard um the negative criteria I think that would turn this case despite children growing up I think um people wanting to have usability in their backyard is not a bad thing U so children grow and they decide to sit in their back flat backyard that they wouldn't be able to do if it's sloped the that sounds entirely reasonable to me and as far as the scale of this project goes um there's literally no sense in doing it any smaller the the um the engineering that goes and the construction involved would be a waste um if you were to do half or a third it it just does not make any sense you're not getting any return on that investment uh from a usability standpoint uh it just I don't know why you would move all that Earth to not to barely be able to take advantage of what you're trying to get done uh and at the end of the day all this work is not making the surrounding situation from a storm water management standpoint worse and if anything it's going to improve it right and I think just because you like a slope versus a flat plane is not a reason to vote against this project that does not make any sense to me at all um they are clearly willing to work on getting the Aesthetics uh to be more pleasing to their neighbors in terms of moving the wall to get more plantings trees shrubs um aesthetically there's going to be foliage and and um Greenery reintroduced to wherever the trees were taken out in order to actually build this project uh so to me I just I haven't heard a single argument that makes any sense that talks about the negative criteria at all or the negative criteria outweighing uh the positive benefits where there's increased usability therefore increased safety um and uh Greenery is going to be reintroduced to the backyard as well as um what they've already done on the front so with that I can definitely support this project have we done with the deliberation or I may say something please all right uh if I'm uh I live in this house here and my neighbor starts building a Terrace on top of me 10 foot higher and they are playing whatever they playing up there I become here a a a a step low much lower 10 foot here and anything that's let's say they are playing walls they they are drop on my head uh any anything that will be it turned my property from a slope area where I chose to buy my property at the slope area it became like a a a a a lower uh grade there is big difference now I am I'm looking at a wall regardless we might address it we might put some screening on it we might put uh plant some trees in the future someone would come and cut them and I'd end up with it with a wall the wall is going to stay and so uh what I'm trying to see uh how come that we cannot see this uh uh uh this negative impact on on my property what's the negative impact now I became first uh basement to the first floor my property became basement to the first floor with a with a wall artificially made wall built up wall how come this is beneficial to me so I think what I'm hearing are aesthetic concerns of looking at a wall as opposed to looking at a natural slope not aesthetic not aesthetic it's it's it's it's a natural thing let's look at that if you if if you're y if the whole area is teras that's fine if the whole area uh so if we were looking at this at this corner of summit which is hilly and we start building terasses on top of each other but the same way maybe that could be all right when people come and buy a purchase a property here or at that level and then and the price will be also correspondent do that you understand that by code they're allowed to build a fence on their property of course okay so the view is the relation there's a big relation a big difference between a fence and a 10 foot W yeah his point is the whole entire backyard is going to be raised up so now where before you would not see you're hanging out in your backyard you'll see in like just you know maybe there's kids on the on the slope of the hill now they're up here so you're like BAS L below and because their whole entire backyard has been rised so you see the wall and then you see stuff on top of the wall but that whole entire yard is moving up right visually the Hill's going up the hills going right so you're just taking something that's already in front of you that's already going up right well it wasn't level enough that one side if you're the Downs slow right all of a sudden this whole entire yard is up here now so you you could be sitting in your yard and you're like wait a minute there's people walk you know up here 10 ft up and the the wall I mean is a lot different I mean I don't want to see a brick wall either I think that's I mean to see a brick wall where in a backyard where it's supposed to be green and plants diey and plants it's not a complete you know hedge who says a backyard is supposed to be green and why is that our per well we're just saying is we're talking about where comes back to Aesthetics which is you know we have to follow the zoning code that's what we're the zoning code says that we need there there's nothing in the zoning code about having a green backyard or not having a wall or not having a talking pros and cons I do I do also want to clarify because I know they've been kind of dancing around this point the applicants don't have an obligation to maintain a pristine you know natural backyard um so what what we need to focus on is right the deviations from the code whether you know those are so substantial that it cannot be seen as complying with the city ordinance um by any shape or measure and then again you know how the negative impacts of this application relate to any positive criteria that they've set forth help the board to see what it looks like currently I'm just curious if you want to entertain it that's usually I mean usually I want to take everyone's time it looks it looks very bad right now maintainable I I don't think we need to open it back up no we generally don't okay all right um so I'll just take minute yeah I'll just take a minute say I I agree with pretty much everything Scott said uh I think the applicant you know I I can't say I like the application because it is kind of extreme but they they're they're going pretty far they've they've the city according to the forest they they're required by city ordinance to replace 11 trees so that that's a major commitment he wants to see a plan where they're going to go so they're committed to do that um they're going to submit a storm water management plan to our engineer which you know we have to believe is going to ensure that whatever they do if we approve this is not going to make the water situation worse um I hear the aesthetic concerns I'm not sure that that's in the legal sense a negative criteria so like I say I I I I don't see for me the the positives outweigh the negatives it's a close battle I mean there probably isn't a lot on either side of that equation for me but I I can't say that the that the negatives how weigh the positives and I I I'm along with Scott I I I have to vote in favor of this one I'm not saying I like it but I think from a legal point of view that's that's what I have to do so can I just so back to my qu my concern about current water issue is that not something that we should we as a board should handle so should should ask them to require to handle that we are we are but only but only for there's a trade-off between the water on the garage a driveway and the water coming off the roof yeah let me clarify so their obligation is to make sure that post-development flow does not exceed pre-development flow whether that comes from the house comes from the driveway there's no delineation of or this water was addressed before and this water is now being addressed it's it's the total value so they can't exacerbate the total value of water that's flowing onto the neighboring properties how they accomplish that is up to their engineers okay so I need to think about that for a second they're not making it worse they're not making it worse which is what they're required to do by law yeah but could so could we make it a stipulation that perhaps this this two-year enforcement of the storm water thing that always bothered me and we we're not here to change that but my I don't I don't wouldn't know how to word this could we ask the applicant to um instead of doing that swap handle the driveway runoff or no so it's up to the applicant on what they want to present to the board as their application right if you indicate to them that you think handling and a an excess of storm water beyond what currently flows on the property would be a significant benefit that would sway one way or another um you know certainly that's something that I guess we could ask them to reconsider and comply as a condition if they're willing to agree to that then that's a possibility so just so we we could we ask to capture both we can ask if they say no we would vote on the current application if they say yes we would impose a condition that they submit revised storm water plans which address you know whatever the number is because one of the things I mean I was there today and I actually walked excuse me for cutting onto your property but I walked in the neighbor's yard just to see what was going on over there and there there are some conditions that exist I know you guys are deliberating I'm sorry for a suggestion um we heard you um I I listen to you so currently today the way the drainage works is the driveway drains cross to the neighbor to the South but the Contours show that the water's not going straight across kind of going back to this back corner of our proposed driveway we can build a curve along the lower edge of the driveway and instead of putting the dryw around the house we'll put a dryw in the back corner we'll make sure that it's appropriately sized and that we're getting at least as much water as or new area that we're generating so we satisfy the storm water concerned that way and this will also be an improvement to the current condition because the curb will stop water from just flowing uncheck across the property and to a point the problem is when you curb it you're collecting it and once you collect it you got to do something with it so once we curb it collect it we'll divert that to a dry well the back water the property I think that will make the situation today better for the neighbor certainly takes the any water away from their house and we will still sat be able to satisfy your storm water management ordinance so that sounds like a net Improvement it does to me so in concept Marie what do you think of that I'm confused AR we where in executive I like we can't we can't go back and for we could we can incorporate new conditions if we want to but I know but back forth like we're they they did their testimony that was done we're doing our we and we what I heard was asking for a condition that I they agree to okay okay and we have historically we have done this especially when it looks like a vote is going a certain direction we have given flexibility to make some changes to see if that app pieces you know can change a vote or two so it's not it's been done before but I want to hear if I can ask you question what Marie thinks about in concept obviously we need to get a more detailed plan but in concept how does that sound to yeah in concept that that sounds fine you know what he's suggesting is is accurate you know you put a curb on there you got to do something with it you can collect it in you know a gutter line of the curb on his driveway and collect it into a dry well in the back that's fine you know I I might recommend that you put some um you know water quality in there it would be only to you know um make your dry well last longer um that might be something that you might want to consider um but I don't yeah I think I think the concept of it is fine but obviously we want to condition that more than conceptual right if if I maybe I don't like are we proposing this in addition to the previous storm water proposal or is this an alternative this would I believe this would be uh in replace of that but whatever we do will satisfy your stor water ordinance uh as far as the increase in impervious coverage this particular Arrangement would also be a benefit to the current condition which exists I think we would eliminate that condition uh that exists today okay so maybe a a moderation a modification of that that condition yeah rather than an addition so what what I have noted is that we're modifying our previously noted storm water management plan condition number three so it will now read applicant shall submit a storm water management plan to the board engineer for review and approval it will be revised to add a curb to collect water from the driveway uh to be piped to a dry well in the rear of the property diverted as opposed to pipe diverted okay we ready to vote all right I'm still struggling would you like a minute um you're beating me up I just can't find enough negative reasons I mean I was even scrolling through the master plan looking for what it's got on environmental and it's all public all right with that Stephanie can you call the rooll please but we a motion do we like to have a motion can we have a motion to approve yeah it's clear if we can do the motion to approve I'll move to prove if that we have a second second okay so it just makes more even if gets turned down just make more sense to do it that way gotcha Vice chairman lyit yes Mr Yuko yes Mr Nelson this is a tough one um I'll have to say yes okay Mr Malay no Miss to I think Mr lyit has beaten me up on this one much as I wish I could have stood up to him so I'm going have to say yes okay Miss chfo no Mr Chuli yes okay so then the motion carries thank you did I count right five to was that five yes good luck thank you you want this you much he put a section detail squiggled on I got you got yeah I'll take it so we'll do our minutes then um we have no resolution so the only thing we have are minutes for from October 4th um and when we do our Voice vote we're just going to exclude Mr mle who was not present during that meeting can we have a motion to approve the minutes moved and a second second all those in favor I I any opposed okay the motion carries thank you good night good night e e for