##VIDEO ID:X1ptVxm_AP8## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e good evening and welcome to this the December 16th 2024 meeting of the city of summit's Zoning Board of adjustment I'm Joe Steiner and I am this year's chair of the zoning board please rise and join us at the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with lice in accordance with the New Jersey state statute 10 colon 4-10 adequate notice of this spe of this regular meeting has been provided to a newspaper of record and has been posted here in City Hall this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision and decorum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times for the benefit of the interested public this meeting is being live streamed to the city's YouTube page and it's also being broadcast on summit's governmental Channel which is Comcast channel 34 or Verizon channel 30 a transcript of the meeting is also being taken using the video and audio so we need speakers to utilize one of the microphones in the room please note that the fire exits are to my right your left in the back of the room where you entered the city has a listening system to assist the hearing impaired if anyone needs hearing assistance please obtain the system at the dis and return it thereafter uh Madame secretary would you please call the role sure chairman Steiner here Vice chairman lyit here Mr Yuko here Mr Nelson here miss Zan here Mr Kieran here Mr M here miss to here miss chfo here Mr feskin here Mr Chuli here you have a quarum you may proceed sounds like a full house y uh Andy ball sitting to my right is uh the board's attorney he advises board members on matters of Law and is the key interface with the applicants attorney Mr ball does not vote on the applications step Stephanie suos who just called the role as a city employee and the zoning board secretary she works with the applicants on preparing their applications planning our agendas and keeping our meeting minutes she also does not vote on the applications also present are our experts who are hired annually by the board to provide input to the board present is Tom Barons from Burgess Associates our board planner also we have Marie Rafi who is our planner whom I'm sorry our engineer whom for 27 meetings I pronounced her name wrong so I apologize and I did it again yes so say it right so we get it right ra I use the e instead of the that's okay goodbye great uh hopefully next year's chair will'll get it right uh our board uh these folks do not vote on the applications but they do ask question questions of the the witnesses our board consists of seven regular members and up to four alternates all members can participate in the hearings tonight but a maximum of seven can vote most applications require a simple majority to be approved before we enter the executive session to vote on an application you will be advised how many votes are required each case begins with the applicant's attorney giving an overview of the application and the process that has happened to date and the variances that are required we then hear from any additional expert Witnesses the applicant may have to help explain the application and why those variances are needed board members can ask any questions of the applicant their attorney and the expert Witnesses once the board members and the board professionals have completed their questioning the public will have an opportunity to ask questions this is not the time to tell us what you think about the case that opportunity comes at the end of the hearing please be careful as how you phrase your questions they should not be preceded with a statement about the case but should be a direct question to the witness also before you ask your question please make clearly state your name spell your last name and provide your address it is important that our court reporter be able to keep a clear and accurate public record and therefore you must use one of the microphones after all the witnesses have been heard members of the audience will have their second opportunity to speak and at that time you may express your opinion positive or negative about this application then the public hearing is closed and we enter in what's called executive session where the board members discuss the case and we vote you'll be able to listen to our executive session but you will not normally be able to participate in that discussion tonight I am changing the agenda a bit uh the first case that we will uh take care of first quickly is the um 695 Springfield Avenue Beacon Unitarian Universalist Congregation in Summit and I believe you have the details on that so mostly they've requested to carry uh to have an opportunity for a fuller meeting in front of the board um to be able to present all their Witnesses they would be asking to carry until March 1 March 17th and they will be required to Ren notice for that new date so if anybody's here for that it will not be heard tonight if the board goes along with this and uh is there a motion to carry this what was the carry date March 17th with notice notice some moved second Vice chairman lit yes Mr uko yes Mr Nelson yes Miss Z yes Mr Kieran yes Mr Malay yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries is 29 rid Road ready to go good evening Mr chairman James Weber of Alonso and Weber on behalf of the applicant we're currently in discussions with the neighbors the glass fans and an attempt to accommodate their uh requests so we'd ask that we'd be put uh after the first Hearing in order to allow those discussions to bear fruit okay um I've had at least one member of the public ask to be able to make their statements in order to make another commitment um I don't know if that's if I'm allowed to do that or not so I'll ask my attorney we could if we wanted to assuming I have no objection consent of Mr Weber that we would open that hearing just for public comment uh to the extent necessary close it until later on in the hearing and then reopen it for a final deliberation and decision I believe the opposition also has an attorney if they I think they should uh agree to that or not are they still are they in the room or aen Brandon I think it's outside I can check if you yeah I I don't think we should do it unless we have uh approval of both attorneys so we'll hold up for a moment here and uh but in the meantime uh if the folks from uh 230 Oak Ridge Avenue want to assume the positions here uh and be ready because they'll be the next case alen Brennan is here Mr chairman okay if she would like to make her appearance good evening Mr chairman members of the board uh my name is aen Brennan I'm with the firm of Hill wallik in Princeton New Jersey and I'm here representing uh Todd and Lisa glasband uh who are neighbors to the 29 Bridge Project uh Ridge Road Project okay uh we've had a request because of other commitments to allow uh public comment before the first case that we're going to hear while you guys keep working outside uh Mr Weber has con consented to that I thought would would be appropriate for both sides too uh yes yes right we we would we would consent to allowing that public comment at this time while we uh continue to work providing that we're not a stop then we will open up the 29 Ridge Road uh hearing for the purpose of hearing uh any public that wishes to make their comments now sank phis sank 33 Ridge Road and if you could please raise your right hand I'll swear you in do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matters the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth it is and just please State uh spell your last name for the record I'm sorry can you please spell your last name for the record s a n K thank you thank you very much for letting me speak this is the third meeting I've been to to try to speak and I'm actually uh I am the next door neighbor to 29 Ridge Road my house was built in 1945 with a nice big white wall around it that no one would be allowed to build today and up until this time no one could see into my backyard my garden or anything now when the uh former house the uh they happened to be our relatives the list house was torn down I knew that uh there was going to be a much larger house going there I also knew as a former member of the planning board that the first thing I was ever told when I joined the planning board it was appointed by mayor Janet Whitman who some of us still remember um was that a man is permitted to develop his property and that that's what varians Es are four I knew that this was going to be a big house and I knew that my white wall was in a sense going to be breached but I also knew that uh the developer had the right to build the house and I hoped that by working with him we could get some screening between my house and his house the house he was building and work together to create the most harmonious neighborly we could do and I have worked with Matthew and I have I am satisfied that he has tried to do everything possible to make that house work I knew from Christa Anderson the former zoning officer that he was building it on the existing footprint uh he was very careful to leave those walls up so however you all decide obviously I I that is your call but I think you have to understand that this man has the right to build that house and I've got to make the best of it as do all of the neighbors and I thank you for letting me speak tonight okay thank you any questions from anybody for this witness okay any questions from the professionals any questions from the attorneys thank you Mr chairman okay anyone else in the public at this point any questions in the public for her I have one question I do I have one question yes Miss I just wanted to you want to identify yourself please I'm so sorry Lisa glass band 42 Fernwood Road I live on the other side of the property um I just wanted to ask if the accommodation that you reached with Mr michalopoulos called for him agreeing to all of the trees on your side of the property line to retain them no have you looked at at the current plan yes and it doesn't call for 10 trees to be uh retained on your side of the property line eight of which his expert has already said are in poor condition he has promised to put up proper screening per we're working together on that is that what's on the plan that's been submitted before the board I really have I don't have to respond to this and I'm going to now I as far as I'm concerned I'm satisfied with what he's planning to do between his property and mine okay I submit it it's keep you can present your other stuff later okay I promise any other public comments on that testimony if not um why would uh what am I recessing this uh recessing this particular hearing until later uh and we will go ahead and move on to 230 Oakridge Avenue good evening Mr chairman members of the board I jumped the gun a little bit uh we're here on behalf of the applicants Thomas and Allison McMillan owners and uh finally right you're in your new home at 2:30 Oakridge Avenue um uh and while I said new home it was a renovation um it was not a brand new home you did an extensive renovation this application is for the disturbance of steep slopes over 15% uh the app the property has 5,550 Square ft of 15% or more steep slopes and they're proposing to disturb 3,600 Square ft 1,800 Square ft was previously disturbed by the city's work in the easan area to replace the sanitary sewer line with this proposal the applicants uh hope to improve their exterior front yard with a formal front walkway to the front door that'll be safer uh you'll see a picture that shows the grade change and uh an outdoor they already have an inground pool but they're looking to upgrade that pool and add a little bit more patio around that pool area okay if the board uh has any questions of me before I questions of the attorney g hi yeah you you said that you mentioned that this was a renovation and not a new um correct yeah the start preservation commission comments say I understand um I believe it was a m that's correct it was not a new a new construction it was just a renovation sure any questions from our professionals I just have one I have one for clarification so the steep slope disturbance just to clarify the part that the city Disturbed before that's not included in your it's 3600 additional I just feel like that fact is kind of confusing to me I don't know if that was included in your 3600 included in the 36 the city's 1800 fet they that is included okay so it's really 1,800 additional square feet besides what the city did for the sewer work correct correct and and we'll have actually a video showing the work in the easan area you'll get a good picture of of what we're talking about any other questions for this witness if not for the attorney not you're not a witness you're anyway let's move to the uh to your first witness if uh we could have Thomas and Allison be sworn in yep if you could each raise your right hand do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes yes and one at a time please state your name spell your last name Allison McMillan m a m i l l a n Thomas McMillan m a m i l l n thank you thank you um could you please uh explain the current condition of the property uh sure make sure get close um So currently uh as was indicated uh we did a renovation of the home it's original footprint um the yard as uh I think uh the experts will testify um was uh Disturbed uh including uh uh driveway and a number of other uh existing improvements had to be removed uh to uh give right away to the easement and um right now we have um as the picture would suggest kind of a very kind of steep fall off from the sidewalk uh and in the rear we obviously have a need to uh restore uh just some some basic uh grading the driveway and um uh really just kind of uh complete uh the work which would include I think is the submission uh includes uh a full Landscaping of the property with uh you know appropriate plantings and everything and um I'm going to show that other picture that we talked about if I if you could just confirm this is also accurate picture both accurate photos so the leaves on the ground will tell you this was a recent one um this is a week ago or so uh you know sharing this just we we have um fortunately a a high traffic of uh dog walkers and kids and families that come along the sidewalk and I think as you see you know it's a pretty steep drop off there's not a lot of shielding there uh so part of the plan that we submitted um would be to put some gentle terracing down from the sidewalk and a set of steps um that uh would allow for easier access if you come to the home now the only way to get to the entry level of the home is to walk down a very steep driveway days like today it's pretty slippery um so this would be characteristically in line with the neighborhood um probably two-thirds of the homes have you know a central walkway to the front door just uh trying to line up with the rest of the neighborhood and um make that still that slope a little less uh you know kind of concerning okay and now while I get our video to go here can you explain the proposal please I'll do my best um so our proposal uh in the rear of the property uh the home is a existing walk out basement home the driveway uh circles around the back uh the proposal is really I think fairly straightforward just to bring the grading off of that walkout level across the rear yard um I think Mr Clark will talk to you guys a little bit you know when we did the sewer easement and that was replaced uh we found that that pipe was less than 14 inches under the ground in places which is um not the best health long term of that so we want to kind of put some additional grading on top of that which would allow for uh I guess just a traditional flat backyard um there is a pool that was pre-existing with the home that that um you know we uh are going to put the fence around so part of what you'll see on the plan is to put a fence that's um on the uphill side of any sort of grade or retaining bless you and uh Lo that around to the house uh connect it back to the house to make sure that the pool is secure and in the front um just put uh like I said I think two Terrace walls and a central walkway down the front uh to uh kind of mitigate that steep drop off from the curb uh makes it a little more visually appealing I think it's in characteristic with the rest of the neighborhood there you go thank you um this is going to have to be A2 please so I guess I'll pause there go ahead okay I'm not sure what else oh no problem um let's go back to the thank you um I think we can go to the video all right so this was when was this around um I think that the ultimate time frame when the construction was done I know I swore to honesty I think to the best of my recollection I think it was kind of Midsummer um the initial dialogue started in uh February plan date I think it got pushed back a little bit so maybe it's May to June uh to be honest and that's the uh easement unfortunately across the property there and those are the Ci's excavators that was the yeah the city's contractor uh came in and you can I mean see that it it pretty bisects the property and um and they have the excavators in the back right all over this deep slopes that's that was the majority I think of the disruption there so these drones or your drones this is not my drone let's be let's be exceedingly clear this is a photography drone there's uh that's all that and it doesn't even belong to me this was an FAA approved drone at a time prior it's November 18th it was daytime so is that retaining wall already in uh that retaining wall was in part of the original grading permit before uh the easement and the sewer pipe was discovered yeah so you had an approved plan right and then this happened and then you decided ah all right it's time to go in for what we want in the in the yard yeah I mean I think some of it was just restorative too right so uh you can kind of see towards the bottom I guess leftand corner of the house the driveway obviously was removed as part of that um dig and so putting that back and Grading appropriately from there and like I said um had some adice of the engineering team that uh providing additional depth of coverage over the pipe is wise and that would also create fewer steps in the kind of more flat and safe backyard so thank you and likewise with the front walkway right safer walkway to your front door from the sidewalk driveway is at a pretty decent slope just by the Topography of the plan so the you're keeping it yeah the driveway is is not obviously we're not changing that that's where it is okay did you have a chance to review the administrative reports of the board's professionals yes I did okay and subject to what we'll talk to your experts you're okay with yes okay um did you have a chance to speak with your neighbors uh yes um both of our immediate neighbors are longtime friends and uh new friends and uh supportive of the work and have uh known us since before the work before when we originally purchased the house um and they're great across the street we've You Know spoken to they uh also you just put a new nice front center walkway and steps in and we were talking about that so um everybody we had a chance to speak to seem supportive thank you um and you had professionals assist you with this application who are here this evening okay thank you okay any questions from our professionals um yeah so I'm can can we go back and just talk about the the timeline of the walls versus the sewer um were the were the walls put in as a result of the sewer work or were you did you already have the walls in Andrew can oh okay Andrew knows the exact because he did all the permitting and all this okay all right then I'll save my question thank you any others Tom my question was going to be how does what's being proposed differ from what was approved by the city but that might so we'll we'll wait for the expert any other questions from the board any questions from the public okay why don't you go to your next witness thank you thank do you swear airm the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do please stay your name spell your last name Andrew Clark c l a r ke thank you and I'll note for the record you've appeared before us a number times including recently any changes to your credential since the last time you were here no change license is still in good standing in good standing yes any questions from the board or would you like to accept them once again I'm not even going to look around yes we accept your conventions please move about this is there a point where you're here too much um never all right so here we go h mobile money is it on it's on all right so uh I'm going to make reference to the lot grading plan that was submitted as part of this package uh it's the lock rating plan prepared by me last Revis September 9th 2024 um it might be well I'll just jump right into the propos F A lot of it was very well described um I'll just give you a little bit of detail and sort of um expound on some of those items and give a little bit of background in history so uh initially uh survey was done in this case I didn't do the survey but used it as the background for the project and for the grading uh permit plan was developed um at that time and the original submission was in in August of 2023 and then there were the couple revisions that are shown on here the December and then March so in the initial submission that was made it was immediately identified by the engineers that hey you don't have a a the sewer that's running through the property shown on on this and so I went out and did some supplemental survey work and investigation there was a manhole shown in the um lower left corner but what wasn't shown was uh the other end of it at by the neighboring house I had some old records was able to track that down it was underneath the the grass a bit but we found it did some supplemental survey and said oh here it is and and so the engineer said well that's great we need an easen we'd like you to commit an easement for that sanitary line and while you're at it since you're going to be doing work out here let's TV the line so we tved the line checked it and down in this area and then just onto the neighbor's property where a couple of identified um problematic areas with the existing sanitary line so that I don't know if they were full blockages but they were obstructing in some measure the flows so this the engineers said you know what you're going to be doing workout here let's just replace this this section right now of course right now took months um and that's fine that's the nature of things um and that's what the video depicts is the process of that but in that process this entire section of steep slopes down here as you saw in the video was essentially disturbed by either the Machinery itself the excavation or the spoil piles when they were um staging soil there were a couple of trees that were directly over the line in a few places that were removed um I think in the video you can see that one of them was retained um down there and we also in looking at that realized that there was inadequate cover over this pipe there was only about in some cases as little as almost 12 or 14 in which is uh really wouldn't be allowed if you were laying that pipe today and so they knew we were looking at doing some work in here and we said look we're going to um do some further enhancements we'll get some more cover on that pipe we already Disturbed the steep slope so we'll um come into the board for that recognize that that that disturbance along with a couple of other areas that will'll identify that um will also be affected um so that that was sort of the process that led to where we are and again it took an substantial number of months to get all the construction forces mobilized and out there to do that work um as was indicated the existing driveway that sort of shown in the background with Dash lines right there and then behind that driveway there was a concrete wall that was like 3 or 4 feet high so that pipe was actually running either through or under that wall so all that had come out in order to rerun this this line um that gives you sort of the backdrop of of of how we got to that point and what happened with the sewer then we did commit the easement filed that all that's taken care of and the Line is now replaced so looking at a bigger picture the original permit plan did not have the upper wall and this wall was truncated uh short of the steep slope area initially you know to stay out of that zone and so that lower wall was part of the original permit plan because it wasn't in a steep slope area and we were St stopping short over here so as not to disturb that we were planning to meet existing grades before that steep slope area so that's how that lower Wall came to be built as part of the permit plan what wasn't allowed was um what we're now proposing to the other side of the pool with just a little bit of uh cleanup on the edge with like a little seat wall on on the far edge of the pool and clean up of the grades over there to sort of level it out a little bit um also rehabbing of the proposed pool equipment in the same location as where it is now essentially and the driveway we're planning to sort of turn it it's going to be existing driveway from the back corner of the house up and in the back here where it was all torn up anyway we're going to uh reconfigure that so it sort of orients better with turning movements and parking and uh whatnot in the back what it also results in back here is a level area that comes off in terms of our proposed condition so by adding this second tier wall and and putting some fill in here we level off this yard which right now is that steep slopes there but the rest of it is kind of deep you know it's it's you know 8 to 12% 14% in this area so it's it's got a pretty good slope to it what we're going to do is sort of level that off and bend the Contours a little bit so sheet flow will go more towards the county property that's behind us and then coming off the end of the driveway where we had this wall that was there before it's going to be a leveled area so we're going to have proper cover over the pipe and uh it it actually would be in the instance where that pipe then had a problem which we hope wouldn't happen for a long time now that it was replaced um the the impact to the driveway area would be much less in that scenario than what the existing condition had with the wall and the driveway that was there so this is a much better Arrangement so this slope we're recognizing as Disturbed it's already been Disturbed as I described the slope a little bit around the backside where we're just tying into the grades and then a little bit of this area along the side in in this area I'm quantifying that around 750 square ft of disturbance over there and then in the front we're planning to take that sloped area that's by the sidewalk and put a 2 and 1/2t wall with a gentle grade and a 2 and 1/2t wall with a nice leveled area by the sidewalk and L Landscaping throughout all that that area and then with the Walk That central walk that comes down to the front door with steps along the the wall and the slope area so that uh that can be better navigated versus the driveway which as was indicated from sort of this back corner of the house up it's like it it becomes steep slopes at some point over 15% it's basically like 12 to 18% on this section of the driveway so we're going to keep that but we don't want to encourage or you know leave as the only option for pedestrian traffic to come down that driveway so this steep slope in the front here is is being disturbed entirely and a little bit over on this area that's to the left side so in total including the area in the back that was already Disturbed we're at 3600 Square ft so what I would say about the steep slope disturbance in this case is often always the case with steep slopes the concern is excessive erosion possible damage to you know property and what have you in this case the only ones the only people that would be damaged theoretically is our property since this is all sloping down and sloping down in these directions here this is a little bit different in the back CU it's towards the rear end of the property and the county property slopes pretty dramatically down to um Glen side in the back so to the extent there's any concern of threat of erosion or or some sort of harm it would be our own harm so really then the question is how's it being managed during construction I think that can be easily handled based upon what I just described um the the site has you know been under construction for some time if there's a little bit of siltation that hits it's going to hit us and then we'll just clean it up but once the finished condition is realized I think it'll be a substantial Improvement you'll eliminate the steep slopes in the front and and calm down the steep slopes in these sides along the pool and of course eliminate this steep slope section in the back that was previously Disturbed so in the end I think it's going to be a a substantial Improvement especially with the landscaping that's planned um we we have in this case uh about a 1,500 square foot increase in coverage what I'm planning to do with this is the the main I'll call it culprate in terms of storm water impacts would be this driveway coming down with the the the pavement grades there bringing the water down so we're just going to put a drain in the corner there is one in the existing but it just comes and discharges at the bottom of the wall now and previously and it was not very well maintained but we're going to put a new Inlet here to a dry well that's going to handle handle the entire driveway which is 2400 Square ft so it's stantially above uh you know the the increase in loot coverage that we're introducing with this Improvement and I think with that and the the reasons I described a moment ago about who's really being impacted by it I think this is a a good application in terms of steep slopes and there should be no adverse impacts to anyone and ultimately it's going to be a a very nice beautiful project which it already has become but this will sort of put the finishing touches on it and I'm happy to take questions at this point unless you want me to walk our professionals first um so what you're actually doing is for this application you're only adding an extra 4 foot wall in the property is that the lower wall is already there that right so we're adding we're adding the upper wall and filling adding some fill in that area and then we're adding these two walls in the front to Terrace that front section okay so let's talk about the backyard first CU I just want to make sure I understand that um so so the neighbors um visual will see pretty much an 8 foot wall they'll see a lower four foot wall and then tiered back will be another four foot wall is there anything that you're proposing to do to mitigate some of the visual impact yeah I believe there's Landscaping uh being proposed for the whole property and certainly for that area um to soften the the look it's really it's really mainly on this side over here on the on the North side or to the right um this there's no one back here to see those walls at all so the um what you have up on the screen there2 right so that's a a rendering of the landscape plan they haven't nailed down exactly they'd be happy to do a condition of approval and have that approved by John Woodson is there enough room um I I don't I don't know the distance between that lower wall and the line's it's about 5T in there okay and you have a fence along there could you talk about yeah you you did make a comment about the fence and and I'm glad you did because it caused us to have a little more discussion about it so what what our discussion was is to bring the fence up to the top of the upper wall and follow that back over to uh enclose the the yard area for the pool and then have some gates that are that are available to get into those areas and access them okay and you'll be able to access you know from the driveway side you'll be able to access directly to those to those spaces but on the other side where it's closed with the fence we'll we'll put a gate there but so we'll adjust that so it'll handle fall protection as well and in in in the event that's a concern with the wall and it and it'll also handle the pool enclosure any comments on what kind of fence it's going to be uh I I I we haven't I haven't talked about that with the owners you know as far as what kind of fence I mean a lot of times in these neighborhoods and these types of projects the sort of faux rod iron you know metal fences are pretty common because they're more transparent and attractive I just I wanted to make sure that the board had some idea if it was going to be some solid fence that's up there you got a 8 foot Wall height is that IR I'm sorry you have to come forward if you're going to yeah I think he's supporting uh what what I just said that that it would be a you know the the metal type fence um four or 5 ft High whatever's appropriate in this case uh and I'm not sure exactly what the pool code says but whatever the pool code requires that's what it would be and are are there any of those lower walls that are more than four feet tall that would need any fall protection no no and they're also by enclosing it they're not affec itively pedestrian areas where you know if you have the Landscaping installed in the in in this layer in between and at the bottom really isn't going to be much pedestrian activity or other than maintenance in there okay um how do do you have an idea of how much soil is actually going to be brought in I haven't done any analysis of that yet but I can provide that I haven't done a calculation for that yet though okay um and obviously there's been soil that was brought in to level out that first course right right that's right um and part of that so so this drive the um sanitary sewer easement was something that was granted as part of this part part of the project that happened right correct when we went for permitting they the engineers said you know there's a San AR line we went through that Discovery and supplemental survey and they said all right we really need to have an easen here we said no problem fine and I wrote a description for the easement we provided that to them so yes all that was came out of the permit process okay so if there's there's one little corner of the driveway that goes over that and yeah that was discussed and they understood that and as I indicated while it's never the ideal you know it was there before and what we're pro ending up with is a better condition in that sense in terms of any plus we just replac the line so right right so and just for the board's um information what I was asking was that you know they're putting a corner of the driveway over the top of that easement um and really the the applicant just needs to be aware that if something happens and the town needs access to that easement they have the right to tear up that portion of the drive so um what he's saying is you know it's a fairly new install so um so hopefully that wouldn't be a problem um I think that's I think that's all I had on this there's no um you don't have any uh roof leaders coming down into no that that was a mistake in there yeah that's a that's a hold over from another detail yeah okay that's right just wanted to check and and you know in terms of water quality which was another question that you had asked you know I do do use an inlet detail that provides a degree of water quality by having sort of the pipe come up from the bottom and and have some separation between the bottom and you can even fit like a cap on it that allows water to go in and keeps out a lot of the leaf litter and and debris that might get in there so you know if it's constructed in this manner it should provide a degree of water quality with an open bottom so that so that you know it still drains out okay okay um and I I see that you have a an overflow that is is going from the seage pit all the way to the back that's right of the yard yeah to to sort of the bottom of the upper wall and it'll have to be protected with rip wrap and you know erosion protections that are required right in the event that there is that it exceeds that we have a extraordinary storm that exceeds the capacity that's right right um let me see I think that was all I had those are all the questions I have Tom yes so uh just to follow up looking at the plan that was submitted uh which is the lock grading plan as well as the rendering being shown the pool in the patio in the rear yard as depicted uh what is the status of the I guess either the permitting or any approvals are they are they conceptual nature the reason I'm asking is because they appear to be fairly close to the side lock yeah that's right and and and so as part of the permitting right the the permit plan had this section within that 15 ft setback as not not being touched like we can't modify that or build a wall or or that's where the patio is so so so the patio that's around the pool is existing what we're planning to do is is rehabit and along that edge on that side put a little seat wall and sort of clean up the grades and then and then rehab the equipment that's there so it's there today the reason I asked when we saw the pictures of the disturbance pool was clear it was there the the the apron was there I I'll take your word it was just under mud at that point that may be so if that's the case um obviously the permits would be contingent upon those improvements to remain and not being replaced um just wanted to offer that questions from the board I have two questions um the first question is related to the steep slopes in the front yard so um I you know I I understand why you want to make it a tiered um entrance in the the walkway this that makes sense um but I'm wondering what is the height difference from the street to the bottom of that like the last tier where you land and I'm you know specifically wondering whether if it's that steep does this should this be an area where a fence is actually considered at the road height or what is being considered because the essentially basic you're modifying the steep slope to say well instead of being like a slide right down we're making it steps down two big steps you can still fall down one step to the next step like there's like what's the drop because I'm wondering so the drop is about six feet and so what what we did in this case is a 2 and 1/2t wall a little slope up to the other wall and a 2 and 1/2t wall and then from this upper wall to the sidewalk it's going to be pretty level slight pitch but pretty level okay so that wouldn't like trigger any um I couldn't it's really hard to tell what the elevations are on the drawing here yeah no I know the the Contour I just was checking myself at the sidewalk right here is 509 and it's about 503 or 4 at the bottom so it's it looks like it might be 511 on the the left side and 59 on the right side it's sloping up this way 510 is over here and 504 is at the bottom so still about six feet yeah it's just following the road grade and the second question um is there a landscaper that's going to be speaking today or no because if there is not then I can this question is probably for you then cuz the the rendering here I know it's just a idea but it doesn't actually match what's here with the retaining walls so the way you have the two walls one's a little bit inside the other one's shorter I'm just going to flip it around because I had it flipped I didn't like sorry Andrew it's all right just so it's oriented the same way yeah okay because if it's not the same we'll make it consistent no I mean it looks like it's the same yeah like so the black the black line bump out and there's some things there that look like they might be a little bit different so I'm just wondering how this is meant to be the black line is these white lines that are there John really will a landscape plan these are the walls what are the black lines that's we were just sorry I'm not sure what that is that's not part of this yeah I'm not sure what those darker lines are that are sort of I think it's a shadow white the white line inside where you transition you have like say on the bottom center you three shrubs and there're sort of like a little white what is that is that some kind of stone work is that um I'm sorry are you talking about this I mean like right in here right all here you have a very fine white line here that is not showing up on our plants right between these trees right what is that s can you zoom in on that a little bit I think that's just a delineator on the on the yeah presentation between where the lawn is and mulch beds landscape mulch beds it's not I don't think there's a hard feature that's going in there to my knowledge I have a feeling we need a better drawing that we've got and uh we're going to need to uh if we're going to do that as a condition we're going to need to know who's going to approve it well is is the is the testimony that the walls whatever the final landscap design is the walls are going to be as shown on your plan Mr Clark yes yes so that I think that was the intent consistent with Andrew's so the Landscaping plans would be just have to fit the walls as they yes yes to the extent they don't already match yes you come in yeah you are still you're under out to go ahead yeah I I think maybe we're just arguing over the difference in the colors of the diagram so the large heavy black lines on the Andrew's survey diagram are equivalent to the large bold white lines on the land rendering the very fine white line is just the edge between the grass it's literally just the rendering software so similarly between like I can point so like these little white borrow his microphone would you please like these little white lines are not any sort of Hardscape feature they're just I think trying to delineate the difference between Mulch and grass and these lines I think here here and at the top where the uh front walls are are the large format black lines on on the drawing so just I want to make sure we're do you know what relatively they should be in line that this was actually built on the same CAD drawing as as the other the Landscaping PL so the Landscaping plan that you've just agreed to is going to match Mr Clark's drawing and will be submitted for the approval of Mr Linson and Miss RAF sure absolutely yes correct okay yes I ask one question about that I I can't see the Landscaping plan very well from here M Mr Linson did highlight the possibility of the hope of saving this red oak tree do you know if this plan tries to save that or it does not um but the I think John linsen would still have to approve whatever plan we put in front of him um so the the walls may have to move a little bit if John Linson requires that where is the Red Oak yeah could you point it out it's to the left of the Walk um you can kind of see it I have X's between it it's like a twin a Twin Oak so we'll have to meet with John and discuss you know what the best way to to handle that is how far away we should stay um whether it's healthy enough all those things so we certainly will consult with him on that and if he feels strongly that it should be saved then there I think there's ways to do that okay I have a few questions um and I think then um following mizan's um example I'll start in the front yard as well I was on the property this afternoon in the rain there was water pooling in the front yard um is the terracing and Landscaping going to prevent that going forward or do you anticipate needing some sort of storm water management in the front no I I think that the terracing should address that fundamentally uh in two ways one is that we'll have a little um adjustment to the grades in the front as a result and and I do recognize that with some of the contouring that I've shown there to sort of steer some of that water um so it's not going in the front door but also the leveling of that and the planting beds will actually absorb a lot of the water that you probably witnessed today probably once that's done you wouldn't even see any ponding at the bottom okay um and then as to the steep slopes you are disturbing in the front do you have an opinion as to whether they were created exacerbated when the road was originally put in and creating some terracing I know it's been decades yeah I mean that would be conjecture on my part because I'm I'm I'm getting older but I'm not that old but you know it probably did have something to do with it the combination of the road construction and then you know building a house and keeping it sort of closer to the road rather than down the hill and then what do you do with the bit in the middle you know is to keep it from coming right to your front door You' level that off a bit and then leave a slope closer to the road so I imagine that's probably part of what played into it this is this is not the only house with that no topography it's actually a very consistent theme on this side of Oak Ridge up there then moving to the backyard you're talking about the the San the prior sanitary sewer being way too close to the surface once the if assuming we Grant the easement the lot is leled um how how far buried will the sewer be so it'll go from like in this area right by that circular patio was where the least cover was and it was you know a little over a foot of cover there in that location we have the 493 which is sitting on the 489 so it's going to be 3 or 4 feet higher um so you're going to have you know 4et of cover over that pipe there which is much more desirable okay great then Mr Steiner am I allowed to ask our experts a question you can ask anybody any question you want tonight I don't go for it thank you um it's your last one and I don't even get to vote um M RA in your memo um paragraph 17 you talk about the need to bring in um quantity of of soil to level all this and then paragraph 25 I know exists in every memo of yours I've ever seen saying that the applicant has to remove the soil that they dug up um do they really have to do both well I don't think they're going to be removing any soil that they're digging up I think they're just importing it to to bring it up okay yeah it's an unusual condition because typically for that type of comment it's because you're building a new house and you're digging out a whole basement and they don't you know I think that's discouraging the idea of just sort of spreading the soil around Wily Chang your I had a neighbor with a big pile of dirt in his backyard for 50 years if if we were filling and this was a new house then yeah we would be using that material as long as it wasn't you know adverse material okay thank you CH one more question go ahead I want to make sure I understand the the the steep slope numbers so it looks like the total steep steep slope disturbance is 3,600 ft right some of which was previously disturbed by the city right how much how much steep SL is this project going to disturb and how much of the what the city prior disturbance it's about half and half so about 1,800 Square ft from the city disturbance and then 1,800 square feet on you know the front and side look you're not re and I know red disturbing is right word are you Red disturbing any of the city disturbance or well to the extent that some of that's now going to get uh graded out and fill place it has to be fixed still right it was kind of left Disturbed it'll be disturbed in in the course of placing Phil and then and then landscape new disturb right yeah yeah and that that 18800 roughly what percentage is that of the overall site so of the overall property yes so the property is 31,000 Square ft um 6% so 5.7% yeah yeah who's count plus or minus okay I'm going to ask a stupid question only because I've dealt with them before the county of Union uh doesn't always respond to things or look at things as quickly as they might have we looked at the ajoining property to see if we're affecting it in any way you mean this whole area B the back is owned by the county of Union Recreation do we affect them in any way well any of that would be um you know they're they have to stay on their property for the work that they're doing um there is that overflow that um comes off of the seepage pit but it comes to the um the upper wall and that's in the event that there is a a huge rainstorm and um which we seem to get every other day understood but understood they are you know they are you know they're required to put in some overflow um you know I I would think that maybe if you wanted to mitigate that you could just have him do an overflow right at the seepage pit instead of bringing it out to the property that's behind Mr Clark your thoughts I mean you could do that I I think this is going to be more than adequate and have uh almost never an impact very infrequently when you get an overflow condition I know um you know not withstanding the not sure how how honest you were about your comment about the rainfalls but we have only had one event that passed three in this year and that was 4 Ines of rain um okay and the county typically notice typically we hit two to four times a year we get to a 3-in rainfall and and you'd have to get above that 3-in rainfall to get an overflow effect so I think it's going to be very occasional and what's what's down here is just Woods all the way down to Glenside okay at least nobody can say we didn't consider our friends at the county I have one more question related to the Sewer that was replaced so you know given that this is being replaced to current by current standards I mean you know they're they're using different kind of pipe and everything um do we have any information on the city in terms of what depth they installed this pipe or what slope because when it comes off the property there's a steep drop off right it's like a STP you know it's going to they actually could pitch have they could have sunk that pipe less than 12 Ines below grade is my my question is did they put it lower like to whatever I don't worry about freezing or do we have where it sits I think they were pretty well restri restricted by the manholes on either end so those manholes are there and and what happens is this this sanitary line comes down the backyards of a number of properties on Oak Ridge and then it angles across because it it couldn't go this way because the grade drops off so much and this comes up to here and then angles across this way so so this has been in place for a long time and then the manhole is on either end then serve as a control so they didn't change the the fundamental pitch or or vertical location of that pipe they just built a new one so it's not dropping down the hill it's actually serving sort of connecting the backyard it's flowing down this way but it's at like a half a percent you can move three 3/10 of a percent it's it's it's sanitary sewers are definitely not as steeply pitched as storm drains would be but they're also PVC and they they flow a lot more frequently and and better than storm water sometimes does and there's not debris getting in there and things blocking it the blockages are probably from age and trees and infiltration and the old pipe systems that were there just one more question um we're not for the sewer line disturbance the 18800 Square ft Even If This Were A 15,000 square foot property property R15 you wouldn't require variance because then it would be well if we were disturbing it we would just the front I'm talking about not this not where the the rear yard well yeah in the front probably not if we were just disturbing the front if it's if it's under a th000 square ft the city has the the they may Grant a waiver in those cases thanks additional questions I just have a couple Steiner um the proposed walk in the front we're concerned about the the sless or steepness of the driveway but yet we're proposing a walk right at the bottom of that slope well yeah because because off the driveway what you're coming you're coming down steps and then to a pretty level walk to the front door I'm talking about the driveway the proposed W well yeah because you know the the homeowners at at different times may need to drop somebody off at the front door or Grandma's coming for Christmas and you're going to stop and let her out and have the level walk to the front door instead of navigating the stairs or the driveway there there are currently stairs in the front yard now right well they're not there now but they there were stairs close to the driveway over there uh question here between these two uh manholes I see that the invert on the first one here is higher than in the others so the flow is in the other direction isn't it no the invert it's it's kind of cut off a little bit the invert here in the back left is 488 the 490 is the rim that's the top of it and the other one 48.3 is the invert and the 487.1 is the invert on the other manhole so it's comes down a foot across that whole distance whole distance thank you uh just one more yeah so with the original um retaining wall was there a plan already to to level off the backyard with the original retaining wall or the one that was installed not to this extent so there was there was some regrading but we were tying back in to not disturb that steep slope area so we were lifting that up a little bit and getting a little better pitch in the back but not not as as uh significant as what this will accomplish could theity have done its work without disturbing steep slopes no no okay I wondered whether or not so do we hold the property owner responsible for the city's disturbance or do we just calculate based on their disturbance well if they're filling well we're dropping a dryw there now and we have to finish now it's been started right it's still Disturbed to fix that area now and and fix the grade in that area they they need to Red disturb it they're disturbing technically I would rather you calculate it so we don't have to come back I'm not worried about finishing it I'm wondering whether or not we hold them responsible for it the answer I appreciate the answer is no uh but the answer is we're going to no but yes please chairman chairman one more question so if I heard you correctly when the I guess the title agency or the original surveys didn't have did not have the sewer line on the that's correct so wasn't shown on the on the survey that's right I don't know okay that's kind of weird and I happened to have the record next door once this all came up I pulled out my an old survey my uncle had done of this and went oh you know what there is a manhole there and it actually it's a weird condition it sort of cuts under the sewer line there Cuts underneath this addition that's supported by posts back there and so the house is this structure sewer line goes to the street or goes back to no no it comes here and then it goes back this way and then and then a little farther down so the house is connected to this so all the houses along Oak Ridge right yes wow up yeah cuz there because of the pitch because of the road and then they're down lower they couldn't really get to the street with the sewers so that's why these are all running the back and I've run into it on a couple of these other properties where they were getting a Varian for one reason or another and the same type of request was was like look we know this sewer is here but it was never committed to an easement for the whole length of it so it's been it's been getting accomplished peace meal um as you go along any other questions seeing none are there any questions from the public for this witness no questions okay thank you uh do you have any um for efficiency I think we can move forward if you're ready Mr chairman I'm sorry if you're ready I think we can proceed waiting for you with the vote I think you want you to do a closing statement any closing statement or would you like us to just proceed I I think we can go ahead I think we have a couple of conditions right I'll get to the conditions okay are there any U members of the public that would like to comment on this particular this is the time where you get to say whether you like it or don't before we were asking questions of Mr Clark anybody have anything that they would like to say about this particular seeing none and with uh you on an understanding that you don't have a closing statement we will go ahead and ask our attorney to provide us with the conditions and uh the number of votes required yep so we have two conditions one our usual compliance with those conditions noted in the board Engineers memorandum and the second is that the applicant shall submit a revised Landscaping plan to be consistent with the proposed site plan to the city Forester and board engineer for review and approval and we're only talking about a single C variance for steep slope disturbance so four votes are required to approve okay we now move into executive session which is where we talk about it make uh make our positions uh in discussion and then we will be voting who would like to start Miriam you've got it you knew I was going to do somebody has to start um I can I think I can support this application I I do feel that um you know there are some appropriate times for a steep slope variance and particularly um in the front yard I think that's that's a big part of it if you didn't have that front yard part of it the part you're doing the backyard you know the city part we understand and the little tiny part by the pool is insignificant compared to the thousand square feet or so that you're doing in the front to make that basically a safer access way to the house um I you know as long as all the other conditions are met I can I can support this yeah I can support as well too I think in the context of the property and Oak Bridge you know we've had a lot lot of steep s applications on Oak Bridge over the years I've been here it's a reasonable reasonable steep s application um I I I'm putting a lot of faith into John Linson review of the landscape plan because that was one of my concerns so but I think we all trust John Linson um and they seem to be managing the Ste so whatever the impact is they seem to be handling it well with the applications I can support as well Don you look pensive Don oh no no um yeah I mean they're they're um they're handling with a steep slope you know the city had to do their thing in the backyard so it is what it is and uh you know while the front yard has its challenges it's going to be much of an improvement for that part of the steep slope so I can support this application okay there um it looks like we are looking at an application that uh uh is a fixing something that the city started and now we have to get it finished and uh the uh applicants have uh provided a decent plan to do that uh water is being help which takes care of uh working with the uh positive criteria and knowing that uh we will U uh hopefully have a better um property also uh I see no negatives to any uh neighboring properties and uh they did indicate that they have talked to uh neighboring property owners and that there are no issues for them so I would entertain a motion to approve so moved second is there a second second may we have a roll call sure Vice chairman Lett yes Mr Yuko yes Mr Nelson yes Miss Don yes Mr Kieran yes Mr Malai yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries thank you okay I'll do the usual reminder to follow the resolution which comes in about a month uh let us uh check in on a 29 richen Road thank you Mr chairman Weber alons on Weber we have been able to uh reach an accommodation with the glass fand uh and achieve a result that I think the board will find favorable in connection with the uh application that uh began back on April 29th okay so then we will call that case to order uh at this point uh which is the first item on our agenda which is Elena Holdings 29 Ridge Road and uh actually couple of people have said to me it's time for our little five minute break so we will go ahead and do that we'll be back at 10: to: e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e I think we're all back or at least those of us up here are two of our members are recusing themselves I don't know I just know your paper sorry okay we are back to 29 Ridge Road that's correct Mr chairman and if I can resume with regard to the discussions you've heard from philis saying that uh Matt nicolopoulos the principal of Elena Holdings the applicant here had accommodated her request and we've had the opportunity with the glass bands as represented by elen Brennan to be able to come to a resolution of their concerns about the application and that uh has been resolved uh and has been accommodated uh with regard to changes along their property line those changes have just been completed tonight and basically what they're talking about going from the southeast Corner the driveway which was proposed at 8 ft off the property line will be 11 ft off the property line the Norway spruce the one Norway spruce that they wanted kept uh which is the tallest one and it was number 28 By the way on the inventory that's going to be preserved and that's going to be protected from the gray change by having a boulder wall rather than a continuous retaining wall 5 ft off the property line that Boulder wall is going to be set approximately 22 ft off the property line so it will be uh well back on off the common property line likewise there will be an adjustment in order to allow for that Boulder wall to be set back even uh for additional properties and those are for trees known as 60 and 59 and those were the ones the black cherry and there was an oak that was between the property line and the proposed retaining wall we're going to have the continuation of that Boulder wall wrap around in order to preserve those as well there's also two beaches that even though they're suffering from the beach Leaf Disease there's the desire to be able to to continue the canopy on behalf of the glass bands so that they still have that green that they're looking for those two trees were shown as I think it would be numbers 11 11 and 12 thank you m Brennan and what's going happen there they're too far in to be able to move the boulder wall so it'll be an adjustment in the grade in order to make the best efforts possible in the U uh grade plan for the backyard likewise as we get to what I had called the Panhandle uh a number of trees will be retained uh that's shown and listed on this document that's been reviewed by the mat and by the glass expans and they find it acceptable so if the board would permit I would ask that this be uh introduced as a joint exhibit it would be J1 okay now because this is uh going on here at the 11th Hour U Marie RAF has not had an opportunity to review it in detail and likewise we'll need uh Andrew Clark to prepare a engineering plan incorporating what's been marked as J1 in that regard uh because this is an application that began and was declared complete on or about April 29th we this is our third hearing we would ask the board consider uh conditioning its approval if it votes an approval on the application to having the engineering plans incorporate this uh accommodation between the glass fans and the applicant and also have the city Forester take a look at it as well okay do we have any questions from our professionals so um so it's true I have not had a chance to really review this we just kind of looked at it quickly um but you could make it as a condition of approval that I could look at that um one other thing that I wanted to ask was um and maybe this is not for you but this might be for Mr Clark um if if it's required to have a new um soil permit done with soil conservation would you be willing to do an updated permit to soil conservation I mean if if it's required happy to do that okay that's all I have at this time sure I I'll just acknowledge the letter that was submitted by the City Zoning officer I had the opportunity to speak with Roger um while this issue is being reviewed internally and we came to a consensus with regard to um the analysis of the height and so I I agree with what's written in his letter with regard to what's permitted the applicants proposing a building height of 37.9 ft or 38 ft would be permitted in this case Okay based on the all right questions on the board uh yeah the building height so uh my qu the reason I asked that was because when you were at the back of the house it's the the garage is a full height right so it's essentially four stories plus roof I know it's three and a half but that half story assuming it's 7 feet right and then there's a roof above it it does seem like potentially um so is there you know is there going to be an as built you know elevation provided to make sure that there isn't a height variance required for that this because I know what it I know what the plans say but we all know that things don't always get built exactly to the plans and especially with all the changes uh proposed here for elevations it just seems like it would be appropriate to have a a height on this to make sure that a variance isn't required for that as well because it is pretty close is that a problem for the applicant no objection so then that'll be a condition of approval and as buil survey thank yeah I mean you know we we've seen enough of these cases where we do corrections instead of approvals um okay anything else from board members questions I have just one and it might be addressed on this plan but um you you're you're reconfiguring the uh dry Wells I guess they are that would be part of the storm water management uh it's still believed that there will be a substantial increase over that which permitted I just I don't know if you would is that going to change the collection of the runoff from the driveway because that's not it's not hand I'm being a little picky but I guess the engineer would pick that up he well one of the points uh and thank you Mr Nelson one of the points that the glass bands also wanted was a Swale where the retaining wall was uh originally so that the water would then be collected and that's uh we've spoken with Mr Clark about that any thinks from an engineering standpoint he can work with that so only we'll run that way will be caught by The Dream is that something you're adding to this it's on there on right here any other questions from board [Applause] members okay any questions from the public for the the attorney relative to J1 that's I guess the best way to put it I don't see any questions for you um the next process part part of this I'm trying to figure out where we are on this we we haven't seen J1 just before where we get to the next step make sure please everybody take take some time and take a look at it I mean we're all get we're basically being asked to accept it with the knowledge that our experts are going to either approve it or send it back to us I think that's the right term if they don't agree with what's there it will be back here and we'll have another hearing and it'll be your fourth hearing did you guys get a chance to see it down here or did you just pass through no okay I just want to make sure everybody got a a chance so we may want to just open it up for public final comment okay we can do that um at this point we would open the floor for any public comments on the entire application this is your opportunity to tell us what you think about this application positive or negative okay seeing none I would uh uh ask both of the attorneys if they wish to make a closing statement as we do have two attorneys and let's put it on the record that uh the point that I would make Mr chairman uh I think Dennis Galvin at one of the board's most recent uh applications uh said it best he said when you're looking at the steep slope look at three points is it uh aesthetically attractive number two do you stabilize the steep slopes and number three do you manage the storm water and in this application all three of those points have been met in addition when we talk about the uh fact that we're improving safety for pedestrians on Ridge and on Fernwood uh we have an extensive landscape plan that has met with the approval of John Linson where he recommends approval for this landscape plan so this is an application that that as the board has seen has gone through changes has responded to the concerns of the board's experts the neighbors both sides and is therefore presented to the board for its approval okay can we move on to conditions of approval and number of votes before we move into executive session absolutely so I have a few conditions here um looks like six total first compliance with those conditions noted in our board Engineers memorandum uh second the board shall retain Landscaping jurisdiction for a period of two years after the completion of the Landscaping third the applicant shall perform tree replacement in accordance with the requirements of the city tree removal ordinance and subject to the review and approval of the city Forester fourth the applicant shall utilize their best efforts to maintain screening along the property boundaries until the point where new plantings are ready ready fifth the applicant shall revise their engineering plans to reflect uh the accommodation in joint exhibit J1 and submit it to the board engineer for review and approval and sixth and finally the applicant shall submit as built survey with topography to the board engineer for review and approval I'll just note that the first three conditions were from the September hearing the fourth was from our most recent December hearing and the final two are from this evening uh it's only once again a a single steep slope ordinance four votes are required to approve it steep doesn't the uh J1 also go to the uh go to Mr Linson yes yep board engineer and City Forester I neglected to mention that because I thought I and the I tried too should have the building I mean that's not always on a too the building height but that's like survey the building height right of the just in the condition because it's not really just a topo is not necessarily going to tell you that they don't usually put the hide of the building on it very good but Mr CLK right I know but I'm saying in the in the conditions just stating the building height topography and Building height yeah okay will say it in the resolution I guarantee okay um we are now moving into executive session where we discuss the application and vote who might like to start Mr chairman of is that an official title it is um I believe Mr Weber said it best when he was quoting Mr Galvin uh the positive criteria here is pretty obvious with the improvements to the storm water uh there's an obvious benefit and I think the applicants willingness to work with their neighbors uh speaks volumes uh about their desire to come to a POS resolution for this uh situation so with that I can be in full support Miss chiefa um I agree um it wasn't until um the the neighbors that um on Fernwood um came you know met with the lawyers met and discussed and came up with the resolution that I feel that this is at this moved in the right direction Miss on um I think I'm in a a similar a similar mindset as uh Miss Cho I think the the one thing that you know I when when I see these steep slope applications for something like this where really it's mostly to level a backyard the the concern I have is that Summit is going to look like a Minecraft something out of Minecraft because we are we are on a hill everybody's property not everybody but a lot of properties are sloped and the purpose of zoning is not to give people a flat backyard um it there other purposes and even if there aren't detriments by giving you know to the neighbors and all of that um it that's it's not it's not the purpose of zoning so for me this is like It's tricky because I I can see where there's positive criteria but I also see this as as one that is it's like a nice to have but not not necessarily um necessary however if it if there are more trees being retained I think the one thing that I from the September 16th meeting which I had the pleasure of relising to three hours worth of testimony um the shade tree advisory you know they made a pretty strong statement about that this project you you know building the house doesn't necessitate the removal of all of these trees and I thought that was pretty compelling um it kind of speaks to some of the negatives right some of the healthy trees that were being removed so I am I think I could reluctantly support this with the understanding that there's been work made you know progress with the neighbors more trees are being retained um and uh you know obviously the storm water manag to prevent having the runoff uh to the neighbors but not an easy one anyone else wish to open yeah um I I goad I would just like to say yeah I know that this has been a long painful process for many of us in this room um and I think that the the iterations of this plan that have worked out over the months um shows the real value ad of the zoning board that in many instances we act to make applications better um and I think we've done that job here so I I can support this anyone else well I can tell you that uh We've obviously changed this application from when it came in it looks a lot different and I think that's one of the things that this board does more than anything else is in order to make sure that the zoning is upheld and the master plan is upheld that what people come in with doesn't always become what they think it's going to become when they put it in and we change it we make it better I think and uh we're here we're taking care of some drainage things we're taking of beautification we're even keeping some trees that we that our Forester thinks probably won't make it but we're going to take a shot at it and see if we can uh make it happen thanks to the neighbors and um all the neighbors uh got involved and that's uh really important and I I certainly can support because we we did a lot of work to make sure that this is a better application as it leaves than when it arrived uh and I would look for a motion to approve Mr chairman Steiner before we go can I I wasn't going to say anything but can I is it too late for me to say something I'm sorry is it too late for me to say something or say go for it okay um there was a comment made earlier tonight that a man's allowed to uh develop their property and that's you know I agree I agree with that to a point that's why we have zoning um you know you can't build a monstrosity on a small lot uh I'm not trying to allude that this is what you're doing by any stretch of the imagination you are doing a fantastic job and I'm glad that there is a agreement between the neighbors uh but sometimes we have to keep in mind that um zoning is here for a reason and if the zoning says X we need to remember that's what zoning is um you pref you come before this board to get a variance from that x uh but sometimes your your your requirements um and again I'm not saying it's in this case just in general some requests are um a lot some are um I think uh this is probably the third case we've heard uh since I've been on the board about um leveling off a lot in town and I agree with Miss on what she said you know where where where do we draw the line in this case though I think um I'm glad there was an agreement between the neighbors so I'm very happy for that at least you're smiling now so that's good um I just um not so much a reflection on the applicant but um I don't I don't know how to I'm probably not going to be politically correct here so forgive me for saying this um sometimes responses from Witnesses um can hurt your case even though she was supporting people um that that response and I I've known that young lady for a long time um doesn't really set a good tone so not uh not to not to penalize you I can support this application so um I just I just had to say that it was bothering me that's all and I'll get back to taking a motion if we can sorry chairman Steiner anyone wish to move I'll make a motion to to approve to approve with conditions as with the conditions as listed I'll second roll call please sure Vice chairman lits yes Mr Nelson yes Miss Z yes Mr Malay no Miss to yes Miss Cho yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries thank you Mr chairman thank you board okay we move on to the last case of the evening 27 Edgar Street Jay's accusing okay Tom and Michael are back Tom and Michael are back yeah totally J is accusing I was um at the capital oops Yeah I know I this yeah that one right there recyle my standing see if we get work here chairman I'm James first on behalf of the applicant uh 27 Edgar LLC the LLC is owned by Mr Jason cerola uh Jason is here in the audience he's available if the board has any questions of him uh for brevity sake I didn't intend to call him uh I do have three Witnesses here available to testify this evening I have Mr Clark who you're familiar with and hopefully he'll get approved again as an expert uh I have hike exan as our architect uh and we're rounding it out with Mr Matthew seckler of uh of Stonefield uh who is our planner to address the density variances which I know is uh going to be the most concern for the all those people who are looking at you who are sitting behind me uh thank you all for your time this evening uh much appreciated uh the application has um uh a number of variances uh most of them related to bulk some of them related to density uh this is a uh non-conforming siiz lock uh the um uh the use the use the intention to build a three uh unit town home uh is allowable under your ordinance so uh obviously that is then in compliance with your master plan uh what we'll do is have Mr Clark work uh through the lot you understand existing conditions we understand what's proposed uh and obviously we'll answer any questions that the board and the public may have this evening so uh thank you in advance with that I call Mr Clark to testify on behalf of the applicant any questions for the attorney from board from the public um uh I'm aware that uh this uh uh this slot is uh allowed for multiple uh units but uh uh if we had two units you w't be here correct I'll leave that to the professional sir I don't do the math on it I just present the case you can ask that that question to Mr Clark and he certainly I'm sure be able to answer it the number of variances will be reduced to none again I don't I don't know you can ask that question absolutely Mr Clark heard it I'm sure he's already preparing mentally an answer for that question when it comes to it uh we will certainly address it Mr M thank you okay any other questions any questions from the public for the attorney seeing none would you go ahead and thank you chair move on I call Mr Ed Clark is my first witness he's previously been sworn he was previously qualified be sworn for this case and we are just going to briefly go through this Mr Clark do you swear from the testimony you're about to give in this matter it's the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do and please state your name spell your last name it's Andrew Clark c l a r ke thank you and just noting as we do um as we did just before this hearing you were admitted as a professional engineer just we do have an audience I would like you to briefly describe your background and experience for the board please certainly I'm a licensed land surveyor and civil engineer in the state of New Jersey I hold a bachelor's degree in civil engineering from Norwich University and a bachelor's degree in land surveying from NJIT um I've been practicing [Music] for uh more than 20 years um let's just leave it at that um I have appeared most recently in front of uh this Board of course uh chattam burrow uh Planning and Zoning mostly zoning Madison zoning mostly and occasionally planning board in Madison as well any questions from the board or would you like to accept them again I think we'll accept his credentials and please go ahead uh Mr Clark do you want to use your board and I'll try to supplement on the screens I think that's best um you had a chance to review the property at 27 uh Edgar Street in Summit uh you prepared a survey and a site plan did you not I did that site plan Mr chairman and Mr ball was previously provided to the board uh that is uh described that for us so we know which one you're referring to Mr Clark please certainly I'm referring to the uh site plan that I prepared um dated July 10th 2024 last Revis September 4th 2024 consisting of three Three Sheets the title page the survey and the site plan um and in doing so you prepared the uh uh the data um uh chart there is that correct that's right can you tell the board about the property about the neighborhood what exists and uh what in essence is proposed by the applicant please certainly so uh the key map on the front indicates the property with a crosshatch it's um lot 58 in Block 1302 it's located in the multif family Zone uh it's a little hard to read on this print in there but the the zone line runs on our left side of our boundary along 59 and then sort of jogs over and includes the apartment complex on the other side of Edgar Street and then to the left of us is um the R15 Zone and which is the high school correct well the high school is in the R15 Zone and the neighboring property is to the left um of our subject property but directly to the rear of the property is the is the high school yeah directly behind us the high school uh the back right of our property is an apartment complex that fronts on Morris Avenue and directly across from our entrance is another apartment complex um they may be owned they may be condos um not sure about the ownership status and we are located uh just um off of the intersection with moris AV that's on the right edge of that keymap sheet so I what I what I'll do is I'll come back to the site data chart which is on the front and what I I'd like to do is maybe just jump right into the existing conditions and give you a picture of what's out there now in the existing condition so on the topographic survey page um shows the property it's an unusual property it's a bit of a it's not really a flag lot it's sort of like a fat flag um so it's got a it's got the stem coming off of Edgar that's 20 ft wide and then it widens out to the to the bulk of the property in the rear um so it's a very unusual property in Summit I haven't run across too many that that have this sort of arrangement um so a lot of things about it become unusual including the bulk standards and and how those are applied in this case um but what's existing now is a driveway that comes in off of Edgar Street and it makes a left turn to a garage there's an existing dwelling that's on site with a a PE gravel patio in the back in the back left that lot 13 is the the high school lot and and just off of our boundary there it's near the athletic fields one of the I don't know if it's a practice field or some of the teams play there but in the back it's almost I I think they're like batting cages or something they're it's like part of the athletic facilities that are right there and then lot 45 directly behind to the north is the the sort of the back end of the apartment complex that fronts on morav there's a row of uh thick row of arbites that's in there for screening and and just on the other side of that there's like an outdoor space that the uh apartment complex has that's right kind of where that lot 45 text is um and then adjacent to our properties out in the front on Edgar Street are our residential dwellings um on Edgar there's sort of a mix of I think these are both single family but there are some uh multif family that are on Edgar Street as you head towards morav on on our side of Edgar the existing topographic conditions are such that uh you have about a contour 200 out by the road and then it starts gently sloping down towards our property so we have the 199 Midway up the driveway and then makes its way to the 19 98 which is just to the right of our house this area in front of the house is very flat um but from the bottom left of that to the rear right of that there is a little bit of fall in there and there's a little bit of a slope in the back right corner the the print that I have of this got it cut off but there's about 950 Square ft of steep slopes but it's just barely steep slopes it's like 15 or 16% in there none of which will be disturbed correct well it all be disturbed it's all it's all part of the application um and and in fact eliminated but theoretically it's 950 Square ft So in theory it would be waved under a normal permit process if we weren't um seeking variances for other aspects and there is no significant storm water management that I was able to detect on site or observe um the roof leaders discharge at grade and flow Overland um the the driveway is sort of a mixture of broken pavement and stone um because it's so flat there there is some areas where water does trap occasionally I'm sure during a a significant rainfall and uh those are the existing conditions I will skip now to the site plan page and review what's proposed so what we're proposing to do is uh redo the driveway the it's 20t wide um I have the driveway scheduled as 18 ft wide in order to allow enough space to build the curbing that would frame the driveway um on our property so there's an 18t wide driveway that comes up and then there's a parking area in front of uh three townhouse units that are proposed so it's a multif family three units um proposed in a little farther back than the existing dwelling and associated with each one of them will be a modest patio just for a little bit of outdoor space um the grading is going to follow the same basic grading because we don't really have much opportunity to change that um because we're right at the boundaries on the driveway so the driveway is going to just like the existing slope gently from the street towards the back we're going to pitch that to a drain in the back right corner of the parking area we're going to add some parking spaces on the right and a couple of them on the left in addition to the garages that will be a onear garage with each unit but we're going to drain to the back right to a drain to a large drywell system that's located in sort of the middle of of the the parking driveway area here and that drywell system is designed to pick up the entire roof and all of this pement because that's where it ends up draining to um we wouldn't necessarily want to take all of that but since we don't really have a choice based on the topography it's all being collected and managed uh in terms of the storm water management we're uh increasing the lock coverage by about 3600 Square ft and we're managing for about 9,300 Square ft so it's about 2 and a half times what you know a normal permit uh type of requirement would be for storm water management and that's for a number of reasons one is as a practical measure just because that's how the site lays out and how the topography sits and also because we want to make sure that we're not having any sort of negative impact and in fact an improvement over the the existing condition which has no storm water management to speak of so you know only things that aren't being directly captured are the three modest patios uh everything else is being managed in the storm water management system we'll have uh three parking spaces to the right as you pull in the driveway you turn right there'll be three spaces one of which will be handicapped and to the left there'll be two spaces and a an enclosure for um garbage and recycling on that left side each unit as I indicated before has its own onecar garage so it's not and there's not enough room to park in front of those garages so um second vehicles or visitors would have to park in the parking spaces that are allocated we in in laying this out one of the challenges is the bulk standards for this so part of it is what's the front yard um you know you have this stem that comes up I think the planning memo treated the front yard setb as from the street out here I treated it as this this line that's farther in that's 100 ft back uh I'm not sure what's right there maybe isn't a right and wrong in this case it's because it's so unusual but the the front yard requirement would be 50 ft and our nearest point of the Portico on the left unit there is 40.6 so it's below the 50 ft that's required and of course that ends up with the rear yard being uh non-compliant uh we have 10 ft 16.8 and 17.1 where 35 ft would be required um if you apply 35 and 50 you really don't have a building envelope in this back part if you applied it from the the the lines that are 100 ft back obviously if you apply it from here you do but that's also unusual because 50 ft back from from the front line is half way up the driveway which means I guess you could put it on the boundary line so it's it's it's a little bit unusual in that regard so we kind of sighted the building the way it seemed to be best situated and then the the bulk standards fall where they may as it were and that's why we have 10 ft and the 168 and 171 in the back on the left side we have 216 where 25 is required and 15 ft on the right where 25 is required that's at the back right front right is 22.2 so so it's closer to that 25 ft um there is some distance between our boundary and the apartment buildings that are here I didn't survey it um but I could fill that in if it becomes a substantive issue I think they're about 35 ft set back so that would put us about 50 ft between the the buildings which is not um inconsistent with the position of the houses on on Edgar versus the apartment buildings that are behind them um there is a lot of growth and trees along the boundary which were not planning to disturb there's a as I described a moment ago the uh thick screening to the outdoor space of the apartment complex in the rear there's over here there isn't screening per se but there is a fence there and it's a less utilized I should say portion of the High School Athletic Facility on lot 13 and on the left side in terms of impacts to the neighbors there's a shed and it was quite thick in here and there are a couple of trees on just on our neighbors's property that uh you know will be retained of course and so their house sits much farther up and it's a deeper lot and and and the shed is really the closest thing to us there the lot 59 has very thick Landscaping framing out the rear and the right side uh in terms of screening that's on their property uh it's arbores or hemlocks I'm not sure sure what the species are but it's very thick in here you couldn't even really see through into their yard from from the subject property and then they have a shed that's on the line uh near where the uh garbage enclosure would be the lot 57 has a vinyl fence uh one of these five or 6 foot high you know white vinyl fences framing the backyard and of course uh the the applicant would be planning to landscape the property um as as any new development would in the back right the question about the steep slope area we are planning to effectively eliminate that steep slope with a wall that's uh at at its highest point about 3 and 1/2 ft framing that back corner to just get a little leveled area in that behind that uh right unit and so that describes um top level the application and what's being proposed and uh I could walk through some of the memos had a couple of questions on that yeah there was reference in the there was reference in the engineers memo to the plan for snow storage or or removal uh do you believe that there's adequate space on site your average snowstorm the main area would be in front of the garages and and and they'll have to Stage some of that snow you know in the area around the walks but then the rest of it there is some space to the left and to the right by the parking areas to Stage some snow um but what happens in many instances is when there's not enough room for the snow the people folks you're paying to remove the snow you would have them actually haul it away um that's an increasingly common thing that you find and of course we haven't been drilled too badly I should probably not say that out loud yeah um by by snow and many of these recent Winters so uh it hasn't been a major factor of late but that doesn't mean it won't be or it couldn't be again and that would be handled by you know snow removal there's space that's there but when that becomes insufficient then some will have to be removed okay uh and the garbage enclosure it's uh it's the applicant's uh proposal that there would be uh cans or it wouldn't be a dumpster style there it would just be regular kind of like trash cans like a like correct yeah in keeping with some its you know residential garbage collection yes uh and I know there was a me there was a question about the mailbox where would the mailbox be located well I would presume the mailboxes would be right at the front doors but if the post office every post office would like another Arrangement um I'm sure we could accommodate that uh and then as to drainage I know you you you mentioned it uh but the drainage uh that you've proposed uh is adequate to satisfy all or what is required ired to be dealt with on site is that correct in my opinion it's more than adequate it's it's it's going um you know to to to a level that should provide a substantial Improvement um and then you didn't mention you did mention some of the foliage uh is there are there any trees on site that are going to be removed or most of the trees going to be maintained there are not um the the the trees in this case are primarily Around The Fringe of the property so we should be able to conduct any kind of construction this project without removal of those trees unless there was one tree that Mr Linson referenced in his memo of review that uh indicated there was a dead tree on the on the Northerly line over here I'm not sure exactly which tree he means but we will meet with would meet with him in the field and determine what that is and if it's you know being recommended to remove and it's dead we would take that out so we have no issue meeting with the arborist and addressing any issue that the arborist might feel is appropriate to remove trees or to add a few if needed replacement Etc for one second are you agreeing to a condition of a landscaping plan rather than just that one specific issue but I think the Forester asked for a landscaping plan um I don't have a formal Landscaping plan we have a rendering that will show you in essence what the uh what the proposal is for the Landscaping uh it's not very complex uh we can review that with the architect uh and if the board feels it's insufficient then perhaps we can supplement that uh or if from certain style of of vegetation that is preferable we certainly would be open to any suggestion by the M Mr Linson indicated that the provision of a landscape plan would be helpful I think uh what Mr Yuko is suggesting and asking is whether we'd agree to a condition to submit to Mr Linson a landscape plan if approved yes thank you uh anything further I think we have our engineering memo let me just check I two highlights I wanted to the disturbance of the slopes seepage pits and such did we confirm the height of the wall I think you said 3 feet yeah it's about 3 and A2 ft at at its highest point uh I know there was a question about um fire suppression systems uh and whether it would be adequate so the board understands it is the applicant intention to uh comply with the direction of the fire department uh and we would uh have an amendment to our plan to install sprinklers as recommended that's right uh do we talk height should we move to uh questions from our professionals sure M ra um I want to make one clarification I know Miss son you had found um an error in my letter about the density so I had I I want to just correct that thank you for finding that that I had um I incorrectly said what the permitted um density was so um you mentioned the garbage is going to be collected by um cans or the residents to take them out to the Front Street does somebody come back and take them out individually well it's my understanding that they would be brought to the street I I I I'm not I'm not fully up on summit's General garbage collection but I have seen while I'm out surveying I've seen them in collection mode going onto the property and bringing cans out so the garbage is taken from the rear of the home for garbage but recycling you bring out front right and that's what we intend to do we would follow what the standard protocol is for Summit collection is there enough room Behind these homes for the garbage cans behind them uh Mr chairman I think practically speaking it would be difficult to have the garbage cans behind the home which is why we've propos proposed the closed garbage enclosure uh but if the board wanted us to take a look at that perhaps we could find a location for that I just think practically speaking it might be better to have it in the enclosed area particularly for for the middle unit who if they had if they had something out here they'd have to either come through the house with their cans or or or uh gain access through the neighboring rear yards in order to do that that's what that is why we presented the centralized location in the front Okay uh just quickly I know we have the we have the detail on there just talk to us about height I know that was in the engineering plan is to yeah with the height requirement I have uh you know my ordinary uh analysis for the for the height based on the definitions in the zoning ordinance um that's detailed on an inset but our proposed height is uh 33.8 ft so it's a little bit below what you know what the permitted 35 ft and that's for the highest peak I think one of the other that is for the highest peak which is the one on the right the other two are um not quite a foot lower than that so they're 32 in change and in height I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt your questioning though that's all right um because that was helpful as well um can you tell a little bit more about the driveway I know um that you've got a neighbor there on lot 57 who uses a portion of the driveway and I think if I'm not I'm not wrong there's a a block curve there right now so you'll take out that block curve yeah there's a little curbed Island on the I'm referring now to the topographic survey the existing condition there's a bit of a curbed Island it's not really landscape to speak of but there's a little curbing the middle and and neighbor on lot 57 parks to the right of that that that that'll be removed um to provide the full 18t width but then how does the neighbor on lot 57 where do they Park their car then well there's there is I detail that there would be enough room on that to uh allow for a driveway that would accommodate vehicles on their property um by turning the landing where the steps come into that driveway area you could turn the landing addressing the street and then and bring the steps to the street instead of to the side and then there'd be enough room to park Vehicles there and the board should understand that there there was no easement when the title SE was done there was no formalized easement uh our understanding from the prior owner as well as the current owner is that there is no uh agreement between them as to the use of that property so the applicant is free to do as he pleases uh of course he would agree to work with the neighbor to try to accommodate them uh but from the perspective of the board we have a 20 foot wide right of way we proposed to use 18 ft of that so here you're meaning that on lot 57 they have been using part of your driveway that's right um and at this point you need that driveway back correct and so we we're not proposing to put a curb right here you're not no okay we're going to begin the curb uh farther back where where their fence returns to the house so we were going to start the curb right right back there and leave that clear so I mean the way it looks right now some some something has to give right either they have to move their driveway over a little bit more into their property or they're going to encroach on your driveway right that's right that's it and some I'm just curious what kind of accommodations are being made on either end or conversations have been going on with lot 57 about the I don't know it sound it sounds like it's some historical use that's been going on and I don't know the legality of all of that but I'm just trying to make sure that if they Park their car the same way they've always done you don't have enough access back to those units back there or it's certainly constrained out by the road yeah right yeah yeah well I haven't participated in the discussions with the neighbor so I I'm not sure um how how far that's Advanced do we know how long the neighbor has been utilizing without permission from my understanding of the seller and I did represent the applicant when he purchased the property uh theor attorney represented to me that it would not meet any type of adverse possession time frame uh we were very thorough on that point before we took to uh purchase this property as I said Mr chairman there is no formal easement uh they represented to us specifically that there was no informal or formal agreement between the neighbors uh it was a matter of of opportunity or or politeness um but it is Our intention uh to try to accommodate the neighbor but the reality is we have 20 ft and we'd like to use all of that 20 ft to to get our approval before this board okay regardless of what's purchased regardless of what is built back there mov on to finish up with our can I just clarify one thing just be clear so what you're saying is lot 57 they will not be allowed are on your property any longer that's I don't want to state that specifically um because there may be some other accommodation that is made perhaps there's a parking space that we give them in the rear perhaps there's rear access perhaps there's something else I don't want to say that there's a strict prohibition from parking on our lot there may be an accommodation made but for purposes of the board application tonight it is Our intention to take back possession of our lot and this board should review this application that we have the full 20 ft of that driveway access but if you give them one of your spots wouldn't then you have more of a parking V you know issue again Mr uko just to to to specifically answer your question I do not want to stipulate that we would not provide them some other type of parking accommodation somewhere there may be some other parking accommodation as long as it would comply uh I don't want to take that off the table and then not be able to later have a conversation with the neighbor if you know there is an accommodation that can be made U but it would not affect uh this board's decision-making process if we were approved it would be based on what we've provided to the board and we would be continue to be in compliance with if I wrong I think if it ends up that you give them one of the spaces you you'll then have seven spaces and then you are under or would you no we'd be compliant then because we're up we're plus one right now you would be compliant at seven okay yeah but we don't know what they might come to an agreement with which might have absolutely nothing to do with parking that's always the possibility why there not a conversation with the neighbor before coming in here I mean this seems like a a pretty big point to me I'm you know I didn't pick up on that until Miss Miss rafay mentioned that like I mean I was at the site but um it was discussed in the technical review yeah but I guess when you the applicant did meet with the neighbor clearer the applicant did meet with the neighbor okay there was no accommodation made there was no agreement made but the applicant was forthcoming with the neighbor I believe the neighbor's here I'm not sure um but no concessions were made the the it is the applicant's intention to take possession of his full property um you talk about some fencing on the property yeah the fencing is intended to uh just give a little privacy to the to the yard areas for each of the units so you know starting at the front and and closing there and starting at the front of the right unit and en closing back to here so that the middle will have Fen on either side that they'll probably have to have you know some gates in there to we have an exhibit that en that as well yeah there'll be homeowners association or whatever some top level management so they'll have to have Gates so they can access for maintenance I I don't know that we've discussed exactly what type of fen is yet but probably more of a privacy fence than the open Metal type that we were discussing on a previous application something to the AR ttif give some screening um I think that's all I had at the moment okay Tom I'll just run through my memo Mr Clark with regard to the parking requirement are there any EV spaces required yeah it's it's intended to have the garages as EV ready so that you know there'd be you know charging units in the garage directly okay I guess just some way to indicate that that requirements being met yes the AR that's the intent yes along um lighting details could you please provide an overview of exterior lighting if there is any architect will address that is that to say that they're all building mounted yes yes there are no there are no freestanding light poles to light the parking area Okay um a a question that came to me uh from a concerned neighbor was with regard to the placement of the trash enclosure and the question was understanding that it makes sense to be easily accessible Could It Be Moved perhaps further away from the lot line that it's adjacent to closer to the interior of the site yeah I mean that we we could probably yeah we could probably modify the design to have the parking spaces shifted and further away from the I think that could be accommodated sure and then this just the issue of the parking I I think you guys need to tell us what the solution is so we're not going in circles for Mee so it's clear that there is an issue and I I think we need some sort of resolution and there's probably a few ways to be creative to do it yeah but you need to tell us what that those options are with regards to which the the uh7 the issue with the parking for the neighbor right so understanding that you have rights to use your property it does seem to create an issue and in an effort to try to resolve that issue and have an efficient meeting you should be telling us what the proposal is right well my my opinion from from an engineering standpoint is that the most direct path the simplest thing with the least disruption in general is as I um depict on this plan is is right now you have the The Landing come out and then the steps going to the West towards the driveway I'm just suggesting that the landing be reoriented with the steps headed towards the street there there's a walk right here that goes over to the door that's the there and there's a door there so reorient the steps so they're facing the street and then you have 9.8 ft between the boundary and the landing which is enough uh you know for a driveway and then and then that and then this becomes a driveway so I if I can just piggyback on that because I what I think what's being suggested by Mr Baron is that I would like to know and maybe my colleagues would like to know what their resolutions before we get to the end of this application because I think that might impact how we View they have more parking in your space or you know that's a very important if I can address that Mr so you had asked me a question would we stipulate that we would not allow parking for the neighbor somewhere else on the lot on the property uh I don't want to stipulate to that uh it is it is Our intention to take back possession of our law and I don't mean to be harsh but the reality is that it's really the neighbor's issue and that the neighbor is going to need to figure out how to find a solution to where he she they are going to Park when Mr cerola takes possession of his 20 ft of the driveway that's his land uh so if the neighbor has an issue with that again I don't mean to be harsh or blunt but the reality is it's it is the neighbor's problem it's not this board's problem or Mr kaara's problem as I said there is no formal agreement there is no easement the neighbor has no right to be on this lot just because it has been that way for some time again he needs to find a solution to that if we can assist in the accommodation of that we are not opposed to it but for purposes of this board this board should consider that that full 20 feet will be ours and if the neighbor is able to Fashion some Solution that's within his rights as his own landowner if we can collaborate on that and help him it would not affect our uh approval today or what we agree to today so just clarify so that Tom I think we have enough on the record to know that we need to get a solution to this perhaps but his his position is I think the attorney will tell us is perfectly legal and he have the absolute right to their property I I totally I think we have to leave it at that for this point because there's a lot more to go we're sitting here at 10:00 I don't want to carry this if I don't have to but there are two other Witnesses and I don't want to be here till 2: in the morning I just want to say that that that separate curb is going to be removed and the applicant will the neighbor will no longer be paron there that's what correct the curb will be removed the applicant will take possession of his property okay and so just very briefly and we've had a lot of back and forth on this what they're proposing as discussed they don't have adverse possession rights on the property if that is in fact accurate the neighbor does not have the ability to nor does the board have the ability to compel this applicant to provide parking to the neighbor um so that shouldn't weigh in as a negative impact but I imagine the board's position would be if parking was provided for that neighboring property it would probably serve as a positive aspect of this application okay okay any other questions Tom not at this time Mr chair okay questions from the board here as I uh asked prior to this uh and I think he refer to you're going have to speak up because we're having trouble hearing you all right at least I you hear me better now all right Mr Malay your initial question is going to be answered by the planner well I I I can weigh in slightly I wait for the planet okay if Mr clarfield the other comment that I made earlier which I think is relevant to your question is if you apply 50ft and 35 ft setbacks at the front and and the rear there is no building envelope so so to comply with um the standards you can't build a house on that lot that's talk about the variances required uh should I talk to you or to the planet well yeah no I mean the variances required are for the the well actually the in the planning review it doesn't site the front yard as a variance I was sort of treating it as a variance because I'm treating the front yard as from this line here so that would be a variance the side yards yeah are are less than 25t required and the rear yards are less than the 35 ft required what's that density variance well the density is a variance that's correct and this is a measure one yeah and and that because density is a variance and because of the nature of that variance I think the density variance is certainly best addressed by the planner who's done more research on the neighborhood and the characteristics of of the environment that we're we're in thank you okay other questions question um okay as you're aware garbage stays in the back of the stays on the property gar men come in recycling has to be brought to the street it's going from one family to a three family on property so there'll be three garbage um recycling bins that have to be brought to the street um the um property um there's really not much room to have three um recycling bins towards the you know you know on on edge of Street M and people do bring there's no there's no we have no um requirement we have we have no restrictions on the size of recycling bin so people do have large recycling bins where you proposing those are going to be where they're going to be not in the way of of cars pulling out yeah obviously we can't leave it right right at the uh entrance of the driveway it would have to be just to one side or the other of that is there any going to be any sort of area of the side where the where the recycling bins would be able to be placed so that they're not in the way of the well I think they'd be placed the same as every other resident on Edgar Street places their cans out in the by the curb but it went from one it's going from one recycling B to three that's my point I think the theory would be that it's on the driveway and they would be stacked in line and that would still give enough room for the car to get by remembering that we do have 18 ft if we have the 3 foot it's still 15 ft even your largest SUV it's true there'll be three cans and not one okay um unless somebody has a light recycling week my other question is for the um handicap parking I'm assuming that's a requirement for right but um I mean when we get to the architect the handicap parkings there all three properties have a garage but it doesn't look like there's any I mean I don't know if this is a requirement but there doesn't look like there's any elevators and looks there a lot of stairs so even if you if you do have some sort of Mobility restrictions those properties don't seem like they're addressing that which there a parking for the handicap but that doesn't mean that right I mean that from what I we'll go I'll ask the offer yeah I mean look I'd be happy to turn it into a conventional spot but I think the requirements are that we'd have to have at least one handicap spot the truth is that most of the time if it's not being used let's say there's residents that that don't require that space um you know then it's really just a visitors coming by the truth is most of the time the the mailman or the UPS truck will stop there for 2 minutes and and do their thing and you know have free access but um I mean technically it's a requirement it's a technical requirement to have the space but the buildings do not need to be ADA Compliant that would be something custom that either the Builder could make the deal with someone who was moving in uh or you know if someone wanted to retrofit that after it was built uh or you know to accommodate a guest I think is really probably the reality of what it would be but I think Mr Clark's right it's honestly it's probably going to be a spot that's completely underutilized and that is there for Uber Eats the mailman those kinds yeah and a lot of times handicap spots in in this type of setting one of the great advantages is not necessarily someone who's coming in with a wheelchair but it's someone who has some kind of disability or limitation and they just don't want to have to park far away from from the front door of where they're going and it's sort of like a guarantee that they have a parking spot um that's been my experience anyway with a lot of these types of sites and the and the handicap spots okay more questions I I have two questions please um one is about the trash and I totally you know understand why the neighbors would want the enclosure moved but practically speaking that trash and recycling is very far from the residents I mean typically you're you're not especially the one furthest to the right did you look at any options where maybe you would put the I guess these are probably condensers in the front those are yeah the air at any uh Alternatives where maybe the each unit has its own area to dispose the trash like next to it enclosed and put the condensers in the back so that they're not having to like I'm just imagining you know like a day like today you have to bring your trash out and you that's a pretty far walk for your trash and your recycling in the in inclement weather I'd kind of rather have it closer to the house with some kind of enclosure like having each unit have you or that uh I haven't but I will um the second question is related to the parking so uh three of the parking spaces are the garage spaces that's correct right that's correct and there is no um intention for people to be parking in front of the garage that's right however we know that practically speaking in driveways where people have one car garage very often there's going to there there may quite well be you have visitors you have um you know more people than your your building is actually not just the people who live there but it's Christmas it's Hanukkah it's whatever you people coming over and they need a place to park um the the driveway entrance into these parking spaces is really short so if a car parks in front of the garage is there enough room for everybody else to move about and turn around cuz it it looks to me like you're going to end up with cars parked there there's plenty of room to move about but not if someone's parked in front of the garage um and and you know there really isn't enough space to park a vehicle you know for any duration of time in front of those garages I think that could be made a condition that the homeowners association bylaws would require that there be no parking in front of the garage spaces to alleviate that concern because you are correct it's nature people are going to do that they're going to have their bikes and their everything else in their garages and they're going to want to pull up out front open the garage door and then walk the groceries in and leave the car there so if the association has a specific prohibition on that then you know others in the association could enforce that I don't see that a problem as a condition any other questions yeah I have a question how how big are these units going to be the architect will address that okay and on the um I CLE can or two I think I have one I don't know we have two we have two so I mean with three units that's six everybody has two that's that's six recycling and how many trash yeah trash is four it's a lot of it's a lot of garbage yes okay but we'll have to consider that as we uh move forward any other questions just want yes maybe building off Mr M's question you're seeking five variances like if if if did you consider two units and not having to have both sidey yard and density and just looking for two variances was was that ever part of the considerations that's not that wasn't a consideration brought to me for engineering the project and I think my my understanding is that there was previously considered four units which seemed excessive and and I think three units seem like a a better alternative by a long shot um but I didn't I haven't evaluated two units thanks okay any other questions for this Witness seeing none from the board any questions from the public for this witness questions only yes sir you have to come up and give us your name and address spell your last name I am Carl deam uh DM I live at 30 Edgar Street so I'm like diagonally across the street from the proposed uh building and I guess you know I want to just pick up on the parking question questions okay but specific question yes without specific question is whether or not they have considered how this is going to impact street parking because that is a challenge on Edgar Street already okay well we have parking we have more than sufficient parking uh by zoning ordinance for the units that are proposed um in the instance where you have visitors I I imagine it would be like any one on Edgar Street who has visitors uh there aren't many of those properties that have excess parking on site on their properties so visitors would have to do as any visitors would on the in this neighborhood and park on the street temporarily while they're visiting and otherwise we shouldn't have an impact on the street because we have sufficient parking on site for the residents on site okay any other questions from the public for this witness please come forward forward hello name is Alexi BNA um uh your name Alexi BNA address Alexa BNA a l e a x a i b i r n a and I'm the owner of the property of 27 Edgar Street so from where the neighbor so so basically from where you know like um the they are planning you know like to take the driveway yeah basically so I moved like I moved to the to this neighborhood like not long ago we need your questions you have to ask a question you can't tell us there'll be a time to tell I guess like okay okay let let me go this way so we know that I guess this question is going to be like for the board or in general you know like so we know that historically like this property it was like a three like there were like three family property on the same property like sometimes in 1950s where you know like it was zoned like as a multif family so since then like three three other like three separate property were built you know like in and they have been uh we we can't we need a question we need a question have a question mark at the end you can give comments at the end like did the the the the zoning boarding like think about that how like um how how we can like the multi like in the historical multif family you know like now it's still like when my my uh uh when I bought the property you know like in my plan it's saying that it's residential so the same residential property Sayang on the left side like the other neighbor but the property on the back it's a multif family so I guess like my question is this uh this zoning have been review it like like recently not like to to make sure that the codes are correct for the the property on the back that's it it's a big part of what we're doing tonight uh any other questions yes name and address please Robert Delmont d m o n 32 Edgar my question is what is the lot size required for this building well the for the lot size requirement um shown it's a the minimum lot area is 2 acres in the multif family zone two acres that's right and what is the size of the lot now this lot is3 3792 Acres that's like 1 size of a regular size record okay that's all I wanted to know okay someone else questions my name is Deborah Thomas t o m a l l o I live at 13 Edgar so my question is that if these are being owned let's say by three SE separate owners with will they be able to be turned over into rentals because currently there are three condos next to me nine a b and c and they have um two of them have owners and one of them well two of them have owners and they rent it out so whoever owns those units beside me which are condos none of the owners live there they're all rentals so there's not a lot of control over it and it so the question is what's the how's the what's the ownership going to be I'll just chime in that the board cannot restrict the rental of properties that would be something up to the HOA but I imagine Council can give it's the intention of the property owner to sell the three units uh and thereafter as happens happens I don't think we could put a restriction on this that no one would ever rent these properties I think it's contrary to law quite any other questions my name is Olga Cina k r a s o t k i n a I leave for 12 moris Avenue Apartment 55 I have a question to Witnesses actually uh can I I leave at apartment complex right behind uh yeah no there in the back behind on the back behind the side yeah how do you address the elevation between in loads because right now this is natural drainage like most of the load is alone it's provides naal drainage for the water for the rain water and some water ended up on the 42 load and pretty wet right now you can go and check right right right right right there that is like pretty wet it's like you you can you can step there and right as I understand the most of the load will be paved you're saying this property or your or the apartment property apartment this is the elevation like this yeah it does it it slopes back you know behind that existing house it slopes down towards that patio area that that outoor area most of the loot will be paved so there is no natural drainage there and how they address this uh possible right so so the storm water management system that's proposed is going to take the roof area from this entire three units and and it's a a drywell system I don't know if you know what that is but basically a drywell system is you you B you dig a giant hole Yeah I know we have uh such um units in our parking loads as well but is not about only roof um no it's not I'm I just wasn't sure if you knew what a drywall system that's all I was going to explain that because right now that changed our like drainage system so I now right so so this is designed to take the entire roof and the entire driveway and parking area so all of that paved area in total is going to be managed in this four tank system that that's proposed in the front and what about elevation how what about elevation well what we're doing in the back here is we're planning to just sort of frame that corner with a 3 and 1/2t high wall and and level off the yard back here so that would help a bit with you know water that's running down that slope because it's going to flatten it out so and there'll be Landscaping so it'll have a chance rain water that falls in behind the building and this area in here would have a chance to infiltrate into the landscaping and the lawn and okay and uh and and there'll be less runoff generally from the site because we're going to be managing all that hard paved surfaces in the roof area okay so what you're saying is that there will be no additional runoff to the neighboring property from you that's correct should be less runoff that's what I think she's asking yeah yeah thank you and asking a different way what is currently uncontrolled will be controlled correct correct any other questions for this witness okay um looking yes oh I'm sorry I did not see you please again questions hi Jessica Gutman 29 Edgar Street directly in front of this property so I have a couple of questions but I'll stick to one right now piggy backing on that previous question you said it'll be the lot will be leveled off so that there's less runoff behind the property I live in front of the property right we already have a huge yes we already have a huge seepage issue it sounds to me like what you're proposing is to take all of that water from your roof line and put it in the dry Wells but those dry Wells are still in the ground seeping water into the ground and I feel like we have a quite a high water table already has anybody actually an engineer or some sort of well I haven't dug any holes out there yet um I mean I could probably contact back um the folks who just did the giant Fields with the storm water system for the high school that's right next door um they probably have a really good idea what what what the soils are like there since they just built that whole system okay I mean as and of course a hole would be dug at some point with soil testing done that's correct and I assume that there's going to be a gigantic amount of excavation for a project such as this well I don't know to me it's not gig IC it's kind of ordinary in terms of construction but it might seem gig ordinary in terms of construction um I mean the fact that you're having trouble with the setbacks because the project is so large speaks to how large it is for this community but the amount just talking about the water the amount of water that you're projecting to go into these dry Wells and then seep into the soil at a rate we don't understand yet could directly impact my my house at least as far as I know we already have a drainage problem a seepage problem a water table problem now we have three additional households more sewage more water usage dry Wells excavation how do you plan on addressing that with people like me well I mean relative to your property if you're in lot 59 right here um my opinion would be that you wouldn't be affected by any of that on our property because cuz you're actually up a bit there's a wall along the side and your your house sits up from us and and and the dryw system would begin at the grade that's already lower than where you are and then go down like 9 ft 9 or 10 feet so water doesn't go sideways in those systems it infiltrates down maybe at a slight angle but it shouldn't affect your property at all appropriate we would consider maintaining dra AG jurisdiction for 2 years uh which is a pretty standard condition that we uh we use around here a lot uh and if we did that then um if there were a problem in the first two years uh you would be able to go to them and get them fix it or if they don't you go to miss sulos who then uh uh takes uh whatever appropriate action the city deems necessary in order to uh solve the problem is that any objection to imposing that as a condition I see no objection to that Council condition okay than Mr chairman I have a question about that because this is proposed as a multifam uh dwelling is this joint and severable how do you how do you enforce this let's say that the person at 29 Edgar is experiencing something that is unforeseen and uh you know you're not expecting it but perhaps these units are now sold right so you're no longer going to um you know Mr Clark uh you're not going to the attorney who who do we go to are those three property how do those Property Owners how are they held accountable I believe the intention is to create an HOA correct correct so then what we would do is we would impose that drainage jurisdiction upon the HOA and the reality is if the HOA didn't do anything in the first years the first thing they're going to do is file a law suit against so is there your intent is to form an HOA but is that a def like is that mandated in your in your proposal here like is that a condition ownership Lots they're not going to be subdivided Lots so as I understand it and if we want it as a stipulation HOA is going to be an obligation of the owner so if we want to make that an obligation of this application we we can add that to this condition and then the way I understand it then correct me if I'm wrong so the impetus if there were to be damage to my property for some unforeseen drainage issue from your property then the impetus would be on me to address it with the homeowners post damage and try to get some sort of reparations right that's the first thing and if that doesn't work you go to the city and it has worked in the past it has been a successful uh uh way of handling these issues I'll hold other question later I okay uh and I yes my name is Katherine Rubenstein r u b i n s h t y n Katherine with a K I live at35 Edgar Street I have a um Public Safety and Community impact kind of question um I guess do you guys uh have information how wide Edgar Street is compared to other streets in Summit do you know how wide Edgar Street is uh and um you can you can uh take your time I don't have a scale on me but uh I I I don't you oh look at that prepared I come with my rul you never know what you're going to get Mr CL proba Mr Clark without a scale these inches it's not it's not a scale but it has inches on it you'll get you can use inch so it's inch and a quarter so yeah it's about 24 ft is that a normal um Regular SI I guess is that you know roadways vary it it it 24 is pretty standard though 24 would be a standard width they're usually between 24 and 30 ft pavement width depending upon the road and the how well traveled it is and you know this is a dead end street so it's not surprising it's a little narrower than some of them so given limited access and narrow driveway shared with two other homes what steps will be taken to ensure a safe emergency vehicle access to proposed development and what measures will be implemented to ensure safety of pedestrians it's very limited visibility Street particularly along the high school um the walk where high schoolers walk and the um kind of neighborhood uh children and also the fire if there's h a fire in this area and the school actually right behind it what are the um you know potentials of of this situation well I'm relying on the reviews that were done by the police department and the fire department of the city of this plan and uh the police department I believe had no comment and the fire department indicated that uh access was uh difficult and that we should install sprinklers in the building which we've agreed would be done so if you do install sprinklers would you say having essentially five houses together very closely would that be enough to kind of prevent any serious fire well I'm not a fire expert but thank you question I can say that the other houses on Edgar Street are much closer to each other than this house is to any of them no more questions okay additional questions for this witness seeing none and looking at the clock there is no way you're getting two more witnesses in tonight um we're not going to be able to do that we are going to have to carry this case uh to next year what would be the date that we'd be looking at Miss suos think January no we'll we'll tell you what are we looking at power of positive thought March 3 March 3rd based on our current colon uh is that okay Mr chairman I'm going to have to cons my client on that take the time for decision well before that I was well if you're not going to wave the time for decision I I I can't do that without speaking to my client well then I'll give you I'll give you a moment because before we we can't vote on this until we know whether or not you will wave the time for us to make a decision walk outside and have a conversation okay we we have another piece of business to do before that what was that date they don't weave it we're voting March yeah they could do that okay we have uh a resolution of approval for a u another case which we will take up at this moment as long as we have the time it's for uh 44 lenux so we have 44 lenux room Ro which is block 2501 lot 20 zb- 24225 that was Bill and Emily emman our eligible voting members for this resolution are chairman Steiner Vice chairman lyit Mr Yugo Mr Nelson we're not done with the case you you may want to hang out it hasn't officially been carried yet so if you have public comments you want to you got to wait and make sure it's done all right I'll just continue with the eligible voting members um they were Mr Nelson Miss Zan Mr Kieran M and Mr Malay can we have a motion some motion to accept the minutes or I'll second no it's this is the resolution second mind all right I'm sorry who made the motion it was chairman Steiner right yeah and then a second Mr Malay okay chairman Steiner yes Vice chairman lyit yes Mr Yuko yes Mr Nelson all right so this puts me in a very bad spot what are we voting on 44 ltic resolution yes great missan yes Mr Kieran yes Mr Malay yes the motion carries do you want to move on to the minute now uh why not or are they okay okay why not let's finish it all right so these are the minutes from December 2nd um we could do a Voice vote but we would exclude the members who were not present that evening which were Vice chairman lits Mr Kieran and Mr feskin do we have a motion to approve okay and a second I'll second I'll take Mr Nelson all those in favor I any opposed okay the motion carries okay thank you we move back to this case uh do we have a response from confirming that the date was March 3rd is proposed correct uh yes all of the experts are available on that date I am available on that date uh we would consider to extend the time of decision until March 3rd uh 2025 thank you sir is there a notice correct I don't have to notice again pardon I would not have to Reen notice again correct without without notice thank you um is there a motion to carry without notice to March 3rd and that they were waving the time down okay and a and a second second roll call please sure Vice chairman lyit yes Mr Yuko yes Mr Nelson yes Miss Zan yes Mr Kieran yes Mr Malay yes chairman Steiner yes the motion carries okay that concludes the amount of business that we have on the agenda for tonight uh is there a motion to adjourn for the year chairman Steiner before we adjourn this is Claire's last meeting so we need to thank her for her time no she'll be back as an advisor oh yeah okay I already I was hoping that's what I was kind of hoping for I I honestly don't I believe everybody else is coming back but I don't know that for sure and won't know until the council has its vote I believe that is the case I think it's I think it's pretty on uh anyway so is there a motion to adjourn so move all those in favor good night