Board of the special session of the board of Commissioners of the city of Tarpon Springs. On Monday, March 25th 2024 at 6:30 P.m. Roll call, please. Mayor Vetic Vice Mayor Eisner, Commissioner Kas here, Commissioner Commissioner D Donato. OK the, um The purpose of tonight's meeting is a special session. Uh there's public comments, and it will be public comments that Each of the two agenda items that we have So let's go ahead and get started with public comments. Uh, there anybody with, um, any public comments here? Here to X 514 Ashland Avenue. I'll be brief. It's about the meeting last Tuesday. And a suggestion to help us save some money. They all had the CR a meeting at the end. Of the other meeting, and y'all didn't finish. The regular meeting till after midnight. Yeah, we were paying for an attorney. For the CR a meeting to sit here all evening. I'm sure we're gonna get the full bill for all of that. Plus, you had staff sitting here all night. If you know CR a meetings are usually short. Put them ahead. Staff can go home and you're not gonna be paying an attorney for five hours when you know An hours would be sufficient. Thank you. Yeah. Is there any other public comments? Mr Janni remote access comments. And we do not have anyone in attendance at this time. OK Miss Jacobs, Do we get any emails for tonight? Public, OK? Um let's go to the, um, agenda items. There's I'm I'm just gonna take a minute or two and explain what this is for, Um Uh, we've got two agenda items. One is to discuss and approve a process for advertising and selection of a new city manager. I think everybody, uh, knows that, Uh, city managers contract calls for his last day to be January 1st 2025, And that was something that he and um former Vice Mayor Craig lt had negotiated and agreed upon in the commission approved the change in his contract in in sea management of courses. And so that's been memorialized and in place. Um Way back when we had a search consultant involved in this and we had a couple of the, uh uh uh, applicants that were interviewed. It didn't go well. And then there was some discussion about creating having a workshop. Um very early January, Uh, but then in and then we had, uh, Vice Mayor Lunt , um, resigned because of the new disclosure law, and we wanted to get the fifth. Um Commissioner back on board, which is commissioner did Donato is here tonight, and he's got a lot of experience in this area. So I think that was a good. Um uh, a good call and We were gonna do this. Um I think earlier, right? Uh, but then we had, uh, an illness on the part of, uh, Commissioner, who was, uh, key on the, um on the first agenda item. And so here we are. Tonight's a special session to allow residents to have a, uh, a say, unfortunately, uh, my wife has got bingo going on at the Elks Club. So I imagine a lot of the people who would normally be here would be or at the Elks Club playing Bingo. So, um, we'll have this Amongst ourselves. Uh uh, For the most part, with the exception of a couple of the, uh uh, the, um residents that are here and also we have a few staff here as well. Which I appreciate you being here. The, um The first item is a very traditional approach of, uh, discussing the process on how to do this, whether we do it in house, whether we go back out and the two that are gonna be involved in leading the discussion on that is going to be, uh, by seniority. I'm gonna talk to him by seniority. Commissioner Colas and Commissioner Kiano. And then the second item is, uh, kind of a fall back. Approach but it actually is responsive to some of the concerns about growing your own. And um, addressing some of the limitations in the charter for things that I actually, uh uh, came across, uh, 25 years ago when I was city manager. And so the city manager and I've had some discussions on that, and there's some very good reasons for offering the second approach at this point in time, and so, uh, he and I will talk about agenda Item number two. So what I'd like to do is go ahead and, um let, um I'm gonna a lot, Uh, Commissioner Coal. And Commissioner Kiana. Start off the, uh, discussion on that number one Uh, whatever. You have a prepared if anything, If not, then we can, uh, go to, uh, public comments and hear from them if you don't have anything to say about it, so, Commissioner Colas. Thank you, Mayor. I'm interested in a multifaceted approach in which, uh, we have some in house advertising. We're also uh, I wouldn't mind doing another. Headhunter search. Recruiting this position as well as US advertising to organizations such as the Florida Liga cities and, um The one organization regarding National City managers . I think it's important for us to have, uh, three different approaches from my experience and in this type of industry as well as Given what the residents want. And we hear An approach from you know. Some residents do want it in house approach. Some residents want someone a professional from outside of our city and organization, and I think we should be able to give them both. And Um Take that approach, but I'm I'm interested in many different ways. I don't think there's just one way to get all the applicants needed. For this position. And so as of right now, I'd like to see where else this commission would go with it. Thank you. Commissioner Kiano. Yes, Um Yeah, I'm I'm, uh Kind of I. I like both approaches and I think they need to be married together. Um I think that and this goes back to something you said Mayor Uh, a few months ago when we talked about having Um Giving the city manager an opportunity to do more high end. Um Things like you said, going, uh, looking for funding going to Tallahassee doing doing bigger things. I think that it's difficult. Um To for any of us, Um To do strategic planning. And also be stuck in the weeds all day as well. So I. I kind of like I. I think that one so as far as going out, I, I think we should you, you know, go to the IC MA, um, see who they have available first. As the way we want somebody IC MA, uh, credentialed. So I think that we would start there. And see what If we can. What is available, Um I know I'm jumping. To your Part of the agenda, but Well, the number two But the thing is what I what? I think the reason that I think they they Mary is That Um And this is something we you know, I was talking about. You know? A year ago, even before I even became a commissioner, Um Is that we have ingrown talent. Um We should use it as an insurance policy, right? So we elevate, or we start utilizing staff as to assist the manager. Uh so that we have people trained. If in fact, we don't find this person from the outside, we have somebody prepared to step in either in January or how long it takes. But um, I think that both approaches and I'm glad that you set the agenda up this way, because I think it is the most logical way to approach it. So if I may, just but as far as the number one And you right? What would be your preference? I guess is what? I'm my preference. We had some issues my preference to go to the IC MA. That to go to the professional association that And see what what they have I. I don't necessarily wanna spend. I mean we spent I. I don't know I wasn't on the board when? When that, Uh, arrangement was made, but I believe it was like $40,000. So it's expensive. Um I think we look in house. I also would like to hear I'd like to hear from, uh, Commissioner Di Donato. I'd also like to hear from former Mayor Protus. I know they were, uh Uh, on the commission. They might have been . I don't know if they were mayors then, but they were on the commission when The city hired out. Uh uh, city, New City managers, and I'd be interested in how that process worked back then as well. Um, So that's where I'm at. I guess the I mean , just the IC MA do we do we advertise? Uh, there a city do the advertising. More broadly than just me. But II. I believe we start at the IC MA first because that is II. I know that they have a recruiting. Um Uh, Section of their Of their organization, but yeah, in but I'd wanna do whatever what? Our in house Um Recruiting. Not not necessarily go to, uh, a headhunter to start with. That would be my preference. I would like to hear from the other, uh, officials that had been through this process before. So what we're gonna do now is go to the public comments. Uh, we get the agenda introduced. The agenda item introduced go to public comments, then we'll have a general discussion. Um on the commission I. I don't envision making AAA final decision on agenda item number one until we listen to our agenda. Item number two. We could do one or two or both. So are there any public comments on this first traditional approach of advertising for a new city manager similar to what we had done before, but perhaps absent the, Um um outside consultant that would assist us in that. And then, uh, Commissioner Di Donato will go to you afterwards. I need a prose 901 B Shore drive. There's three of us here that have worked. To get city managers in tarpon. Yeah, I see him as the place to go. It goes all over the country. They're very professional. They look at your community and they match with, um The applications that they get in. And, um. I'm sure As Frank starts talking, things will start coming back. To me. It's been since the nineties and the eighties. And when you get all these applications Every commissioner gets a copy of each one. And you as commissioners, you can say we wanna select four or three. You come back and you discuss them and you bring two or three people out of the packet of what you want, and you interview them here, and that's what you decide. Are they the type of city manager you're looking for in tarpon. And you discuss it in an open meeting. Among yourselves and then you can also choose one. I remember a time when an applicant came in We didn't know. And the Saint Pete Times, which was the ST Pete Times back, then called me. And they took me into the clerk's office and he was being sued by his employees in South Carolina. And they said, Mayor, You've got to watch it. It's a very bad lawsuit. So We had to dismiss that one. Then another time. One came in again. There was a lawsuit, but we took a chance on it, and it worked. But he left. Um It takes all of you together, working together with IC MA getting a good city manager. And the last time we did it, it backfired because it didn't work. Good. So I suggest you go with the professionals and let's get one in here and let your city manager work with them. Don't give you a good understanding about him. Because he's gonna be doing the same thing our city manager is doing now. And he's gonna take, uh, a good look hard look and see who can work with all of you. And as things start coming back to my mind after Frank and Lady Uh, Peter de Lais talks We'll all start thinking of things because , uh, Commissioner uh, D don not and I, I think have been through three or four of them. And uh, you really have to study hard because once he comes and you wanna get rid of them, you're gonna pay through the nose for it. So you got to be sure. And he has to have an understanding of the commissioners, and he has to have an understanding of your community, your police and fire department. To work good with the city. OK, thank you. Are there any other public comments? Is McKinney. Debbie McKinney, 1021 Rose Tree Lane. I don't have any experience with this. I haven't been on the board. But I have my own personal experience. Um I believe that it should be open to both in homegrown and looking outward to get our candidate and see who fits best. I think they all need that opportunity to try. Um I know in the organization that I worked for that I just recently retired from it was not for profit organization government funded, so we had a lot of the same government rules. And restrictions and stuff like that , Um, our CEO. Was stepping down. And they went and they got somebody from another state to come in and do their job. And it was horrible because they weren't familiar with what was going on in our area. Um it ended up she left after one year and somebody that had come up through. The steps of working for the company ended up being the CEO, and it's been perfect since then, because she knows the ins and outs of the particular area and how things needed to be done by coming up through it, Um so I can go. Either way, I can go from outside or from inside, but I want all of them to have the opportunity. Anyone else? OK PX 514 Ashland Avenue. The situation. We were in when I was on the board, actually. Was Made easier because of In a sense item two. Thankfully uh, Ellen as much as she may have given us grief in sometimes, and I Praise her valuable insight and helping us get the RO plant. But he was she was also smart enough to bring mark in. And start having them doing a whole bunch of stuff. So I know it's on the other item, but When you look at the other item, you really need to look at putting in an assistant city manager as it's kind of recommended to help with the bolts and nuts stuff. So in a sense, we didn't really go outside to hire someone. We had some qualified and we had a chain of command where we marked Came to city Hall. Uh, Captain. Coaching major coaching. I don't know the exact title at the time he went to become the chief. Now, as far as your search, I hear I AC M, but you also may want to expand that like it was mentioned by Commissioner uh Cuyas, the for Liga Cities. I'm sure there's also an organization for County managers. Why do I say that? Because maybe there's some county managers have managed cities or counties equal size or bigger. And maybe just wanna downsize a little bit not have to deal with the whole county. So you may wanna look at that. You have in house people. We've got an HR department and Or, um, Procurement department does the same thing with RFPS or have a lot of quality in looking through the systems when they grade companies for projects. LinkedIn. Indeed, I'm Technically listed as when I sign off. I'm a property manager because I manage Some property. So I'm on LinkedIn and I'm not active on it. I just do it so I can follow other things yet. I bet you every day I get something so and so is looking for a property manager. Someone's looking for manager here or there, so Throw it out to his wide a base and legally Anybody in house is Able to apply anyway. So you can work actually, on your second part for providing an assistant, and when we get to that point, I'll actually say expanding it to other departments just as what happened with Paul Smith and Tommy Same thing. There You got other departments. Ron is gonna be leaving in finance. I don't know what the situation is in IT, or Public works or other departments. But I know we've had people here a number of years, so we may wanna look and expanding our training programs in house to train people to move up into further positions because it incentivizes them to stay here instead of maybe taking an offer or somewhere in another city for 510 grand more, they know I'm on this path and Things work for the betterment. Um, but as far as The search process. Um I think Headhunter is a waste of money. I'm sorry 45 grand last time and how much it's gonna cost now. I would say exhaust. All of the Or minimal cost options first, and I'm sure you're gonna have plenty of candidates to respond. If for some reason, you don't get a qualified candidate, then you can. Maybe at that point as last resort good to a headhunter, but Um This can be done very reasonably in a low cost fashion yet still expand the net as broad as possible. Thank you. Thanks. Anyone else? Mr Jump any remote access comments? We do not have anyone in attendance at this time, OK? Um Let's go back to the commission. Uh, Commissioner Di Donato. Would you like to offer some words on that on this, Uh, advertising at this point? Um What goes back back away, So I've give him give him away. Partially my age. Uh, but we Unfortunately, custody was the city manager then, and he felt for family reasons that he should retire, and so we had to replace replace him. And uh, what we did was we did we did it ourselves. We did it in house totally in house. Um We did some of the things that have already been mentioned here. Uh II. I feel that both these items one and to actually meld together, But I don't think we're ready for two. Yet we need to plan for it and budget for it is my understanding. If you're gonna bring somebody through you kind of wanna Send them in to some of these seminars and let them learn more about it, but that that we'll get to that. And I too, But one is what we did totally is we advertised. And uh I mean, if, if I miss one, there's the third one I can't come up with, but we advertised in the IC MA. Nationally. And we advertised in the Florida League of Cities. And there's a third one. And I mean it slips me. I just looked at this two weeks ago and I, but there were three And we received over 100 applications. We had a screening committee, which basically consisted of staff led by our city manager at the time. Uh, who? Who kind of? I don't think he participated in the whole process. So you so you didn't so HR actually took that that realm? Um uh, And they formed pretty much it was composed of department heads. And since our city manager will be here, I think he should certainly be a part of that committee. They went through all the 100 applicants, and basically what they were looking for is what we were looking for Some IC MA experience for the league of Cities. Uh, an assistant city manager or city manager from another location. Those were our primary goals. We did not exclude staff, by the way. Um and I think it should be open to any any staff members. But again , Uh, we have two city managers here. That had never been trained as city managers, and they both did very good jobs, in my opinion, but but they they had some learning experiences to get through it. I think both of them would admit that Uh and I see him a trained Uh, city Manager or assistant city manager. Or of course, anybody who's been in that job could hit the ground running and they know where to go for financing. That's why we have the RO plant today. Um Ellen knew how to go find the money. And get the approvals and what? Not not that somebody else wouldn't have. But it would have taken much longer, in my opinion, So that's what we did We got from the screening committee. I think they cut it down pretty much in half. We took that half each commissioner. We? We took 10. So there was about 50 that we had in total. Each one of us took 10. We went through it. We ranked 123. And then we turned over our. In other words, we met several times you had to do that to get through the process. Uh and we turned over. Usually it was like 72 hours in two or three days and you can take longer. If we've got the time you can take a week, But we went through all 10 at a time. As as I said, ranked it, we got together traded, so they in other words, Everybody saw those 15. They had everything they needed resumes everything else on on these people, work histories, uh, which you should be part of the resume, but I heard through the process last time. Some of you didn't get adequate information. This is all done. One of the purposes of the screening committee. They made sure that we had everything. Um So anyway, make a long story short we narrow that down to like 20. Then we went 15. Then we went 10. We got a meeting at five and we pick three to interview and that that's what we did. Of those three they personally came to the city. Uh, Two of them as as I remember, were here a day early, actually walking around town getting to know and for the lady that that that brought out that, um you know the experience in house I. I totally agree with that. It is just but I think we should be providing some of that training so that we are ready to go forward. So I suggest you know we do that through the budget process, But in essence, that's what we did. Right wrong or indifferent. It turned out pretty good for the For the, uh, better part of everything. Um we were, as I said, we were able to do it ourselves, and we had all the available information. Um Staff did an excellent job in helping us to get to the pro. There were many applications that were not qualified, and they just immediately screened them out. In essence, that's what we did. The only money that was expended was the money to advertise in those three different, uh, areas. That was it. But you have to set a timeline, which we set through the clerk's office. And it was done I. I feel quite well by the staff. OK? Um let me go to Vice Mayor Eisner. Then I'll go back to the two commissioners. Thank you, Mayor. Um One of the mistakes we made when we were doing the other, which I haven't heard anybody bring up was that at the time we didn't have an agreement. With this current city manager. On when his replacement was to be which we do now. And the most important thing is now any IC MA accredited city manager could join the search which we also didn't have before. So we had a choice. Um that was it was a great deal of people that originally applied and then we got it down to two people. And of the two people. One was unemployed. So he was an IC MA person and For some, For whatever reason, he was not chosen, and the other person was a assistant. So he was, um, allowed to. I believe that it's a different day and age that we're in Um, with all due respect to what Um, Commissioner did Donato was saying, But, um I don't feel that the money should take precedence over us doing another search. Um I. I don't think that we all as a board have the time to do this intricate search that's needing to be done that by just listen to, um I mean I am I have all the time in the world. I'm retired. I don't think it's our place to do that screening. Um if we wanna, um, give the information over to our procurement to do. I think their hands are full with what they do, Um, my conversation with our current city. Manager is there's a lot more moving parts these days to being a city manager than it was in the olden days or older days, and we also have newer creature features that, uh, we have access to, um, but I , I don't think I wanna go and interview, um split up 100 people or split up 50 people may that may have worked back in the day. Um we have access to Just so many more which ways to do the right thing. Um I don't think that we had enough time, one on one with each of the city managers that we interviewed. Um having that, you know, uh, what I call that speed dating that we did was kind of ridiculous. Um And then we had them having meetings with the residents who actually the city manager would serve, but they weren't making the decision. So that was great that everybody loved them or didn't love them or whatever. And you know, that was great to get us feedback indirectly, But we're the ones that make the ultimate decision. So II, I don't mind. Having it where they meet, but we can't have an hour meeting or a one time meeting. Um So those are the things some of the things I think we'd have a better shot at IC MA person now because there's been a, uh, a deadline set. Um I don't think that we can get involved doing our own search and There would be no communication between us with sunshine. So there's that's so hard to do. I don't know what was done in the past. Um it's not our job to be the city manager. It's our job to select the city manager. Um Let me just see and pretty much I think I covered all of the things I, I think, you know, I know there was some bad blood with with the company Slavin, but I think their hands were tied a little bit. And I also think at the same time, maybe they didn't make the best of selections. Um But, uh You know that it's their job to do the initial screening. Uh you know, we're it's easy to blame Slavin. But if and no offense over at procurement, But if we gave that position to procurement, we could sit there and say the same thing. Oh, well , the procurement didn't really do this right. I don't want to put that onus on them. They get enough of the headaches of selecting our contractors and everything else they do. Um this is just an added this would be an added headache. We would At them, and it might take away from what they do on a day to day basis, So I think we should spend the money. Um it's not often that we do this and I know I've heard things about mistakes being made. Um we have a good crew of interviewers up here. Um And I think we have a good insight to what we're, uh, looking for. None of us really are a brand spanking new and don't know how to interview. Um so I would go with, um, selecting a, uh, headhunter as it was said, And at the same time, if somebody Outside this the, uh, wants to, you know in house wants to put their hat in the ring. Um, I'm OK with interviewing that as well. But I would also like to have a backup. Situation but just like we have now, where If Mark is out, he was, um, able to count on our fire Chief Scott and uh, or able to count on, you know, um Call, So you know, it's good to have two or three people as backup. Uh, I'm not ready to throw them into the situation unless they really want to get involved. And then you know, they have to also be IC MA, um I. I just think it's a It's. There's a lot of moving parts to the city. And you know, the more you get involved with what Mark does on a day to day basis. You kind of realize that, um you kind of need roller skates these days. It's just too many moving parts. We're we're We're always on with cell phones with cameras with, you know, um, just everything that goes on you. You just have to be on top of everything. So that's where I'm I'm at Uh, Commissioner C. I got anything else down. Yes, I. I I am again. I'm agreeing with vice Mayor. I don't mind using, uh, a recruiter again. But I. I also believe that when we say in house we there's a couple of different terms that we say We mean in house that we're gonna hire from within our own city staff through the process or we're going to do the in house advertising that is to the Florida League of Cities to the IC MA or to other counties or or , you know, uh, other entities as well. So that that that's what in house has been. We describe it again. Um I there There is an issue with maybe having procurement staff or or screen or any department individual because it could come as a conflict as they making a selection process for potentially their their boss, their employer. And so that's just something we need to consider. But uh, we're two months behind we need to get the advertising out. We need to come to agreement as soon as possible on how we're gonna do the advertising. Uh Maybe even Slavin again will come back at a discounted rate. You never know. So there, there could be something that we could throw when we do maybe an RFP for recruiters. And uh, but we're gonna make a selection and whether the person gets hired June 1st or December 31st, which that's not what I'm looking for towards that later date. Uh, Mark's gonna be here till the day that he gave And, um, I want I preferably would like to move fast. And not move fast but move as we've talked about schedule and have commissioner Di Donato here. To help make the decision for us. So uh, Commissioner did. Donado's last meeting is Uh, can you help me city Clerk? It's August is last city meeting. For commissioner Di Donato from the interim position. Well, the election is August 20th. So it would be our next. Probably our next, uh, council after that, Once the votes have been, um Certified. OK, so. Are You know this was a very important selection and appointment. Um As we talked about Commissioner Di Donato's No one's gonna have more experience than him during this process, and I'd like for him to be involved. Uh, to make that decision for us as well to move forward, and, um And proceed And so, uh, I'm interested in in a few different ways. Um, you know, some people might sit there and say we're gonna Spend money or it's a waste of money. No, this is a good decision. It's a hiring practice. Uh um I'll be heavily involved this time around, too. And so we're gonna do what we can to get that best selection, But I want everything out there, as in In house IC MA credited to I. I just don't wanna come in a situation where we end up. Potentially selecting somebody that wasn't in our initial criteria. So I just want it broad in a way, so there there's You know no issues about what we were Advertising for. And uh um Mayor. You let us know your thoughts, too. That way. We can come to an agreement and get this done because this is important. And, uh, I know that we have to move in a firm direction and I'm happy Commissioner D Donato is here to help. Finalize it all for us. OK um M, Um Kardash has something to interject at this point. I'll go to, um, I just wanna be clear . Um because there's been discussion about the different associations and organizations, um, that do this. There is the IC MA, which stands for the international city slash County Management Association. And then there is the F CCMA, which is the Florida City County managers . Our management association F CCMA is Pendent from ICMA, but FC MA has adopted the ethical practices and professional standards, um, that have been developed and espoused by the IC MA. So I just wanna make sure you know that you all are aware of that. So when we're talking about these, um I know there was also a comment regarding the matching, um, to the best of my knowledge At this time, they do not do that. You simply advertise and whoever applies to your agency applies to your agency. But They don't provide a matching service anymore. If they did in the past. I don't know when. When we did it in prior we just advertised and we received the information back. We didn't do a ranking or anybody did That. And FLC does have a job board as well like that. And I believe the third, the Florida Uh uh, city man said I believe that was the third one. I'm pretty sure. Um, but those were the only three sources and only thing I can say , you know, I appreciate the commissioner's comments. Um You know, II. I heard at least three of you, and I think it was all five of you really not very happy with the last process. Um you know, three of you, As I remember, said you didn't get all the information. The way the way that we did it. We got all the information. We saw every application. And the commissioner. He did take a little bit of time. But it wasn't that bad going through when you know what your parameters are. One where I think You do that for a living. When you've got a checklist. It doesn't take you very long to go through a through a file. It doesn't take long at all. So I. I wouldn't be afraid of that. If you know I understand that you might be, but I it it was not difficult. But we had parameters. We knew what we were looking for. Kano. I think the, uh Commissioner GI Donato just said it, um We're Yeah. We're gonna have standards we're gonna go through. If we went through it ourselves. We would know what we're looking for, and we will be able to weed out. I think, uh, I wouldn't also rule out having a citizen advisory board on this. We could put together a citizen committee. Um, which could include You know former elected officials that could have it could it could include someone on this on this board, not we couldn't have two of us, but we could have somebody Or and we could also include staff. But, um I think if we're going to get if we had 100, I don't think a hundreds That many when again, we have standards with able to kick through and get to 5040. 30. Pretty quick. So again if we needed some outside help, II, I wouldn't I would entertain , Um, a citizen advisory group. Which I think we could put together pretty quick. So Um, But you Yeah, Utilizing the different associations, I think is the way to go. I know. Um it's done in, you know, Municipal, um In the accounting. We use, you know, the American Institute of CPAs of Florida Institute of CPS. You know, we E even if you advertise through their portals. That's where All those professionals focus their You know their attention, So that's where you're gonna get the best. Uh, Responses. OK, so Um Vice Mayor Eisner, let me make my confidence. Go right ahead. Let me just start out by, um Saying I. I think everybody's um Comments are great. Um Uh, you know, they they, uh I mean, for the sake of a better word. Uh, they're a little idealistic in that sense and I. I really don't want us to, um Overthink what we're actually trying to do. The UM city manager had provided some Back up. Uh, today. Uh, from Slaven Associates. And he did that intentionally to show you that basically we own those rights. So we've got the brochure done. Concerning Tarpon Springs. We don't need to redo that. That's That's current. And also the advertisement has been completed. And, um I'm not sure if you had a chance to look at it, uh and see if there's anything that you would want to add in terms of the standards or anything like that. But I think it's fairly straightforward. We delineated What our desires were with that workshop with Slavin before he actually put that together. So um, unless there's something new that One of the commissioners that was not on the board at that time would like to add? I don't know that we need to have another discussion on that. Um Number two Um We? We, um We? We the advertising I. I think we've talked about that It would be the Florida League of Cities. The IC MA. Um, the other organization that, uh, which is the Florida Uh, city managers, which is not I. I know. I'm familiar with that one too. And then also, um Other cities in Pinellas County. None other is a little bit of a trepidation of Trying to hire her away from other people, But they do a pretty good job of firing away from us. So I I'm not sympathetic in that regard. So I'd like for us to actually put the word out to these 26 other cities in Pinellas County, and, um, maybe not necessarily the real small ones, but, uh, just to be fair about it to put it out to the other 26 and also Panas County. And see if that comes up. And then if there's any other, um, advertising, um Uh, medium or, uh uh. Organization that Miss Lewis or, uh, M Kniffin N? Yeah. Jane Kniffen, uh, would offer then I don't see that there's a problem more the better at this point. I think the idea is to generate, uh, applications from qualified, um, in in the IC. May we keep talking about IC MA, But the IC MA offers a certification actually, that they have to maintain their certification just like a professional engineer. Just like a certified public of Chea. Uh, accountant need To take courses every year to maintain their license, and so does an IC MA, uh, city manager. Um We also need to set a deadline, Uh for and I'd like to do that tonight, too. That's what I'm getting at there. Some Boilerplate things that we need to do. Um set a deadline of how long we want to advertise before we stop and take a look at what we've got, and then we can. You know, we could get a running total, uh, from his kniffin. Or whoever is gonna be responsible for the stab what we think it's going to be, Ms Kniffen. The other thing, too, is Don't forget. We successfully hired an internal auditor as well. Um so we've gone through that and that we did our own advertising for that, And we did it. We went, We had to go through two cycles. Advertise one. The person accepted the job. They backed out. We went through it all over again. And then we've got our current. Uh, internal auditor. So Sometimes it's gonna be easy. Sometimes it's gonna be A little challenging. Um the city. Um and you heard this before? Um it's got a lot going for it. And the fact that, uh, City Management, of course, has been here a long time ago. Uh, for a long time. The um applicants. Uh, like to see longevity in the city. They don't like to see city managers being turned over every two years and stuff. I think they'd be reluctant to jump in. On. On the other hand, um Just the one data point we have. We have to kind of improve our own our own. Uh uh, interviewing skills ourselves. Publicly um, for these applicants, uh, so that we don't wind up with a Um, a redo of what we did before. Uh but nevertheless, I. I think we need to. We need to try. Um Times have changed our city manager, uh, 25 years ago, and I could not do the job today that I don't care. Um how bright I think I am. I can't do that job today. Um we didn't have email back then we had snail mail. We had word processing. You do your little word processing. You print it out. You'd have the, um um you'd sign up a carbon paper. Pardon me carbon paper. A little bit of that still left. But mostly the word processing was that but we'd have to make copies and that one office that we've got our audio visual, uh, department up, there was basically cardboard, you know. Xerox boxes full of paper files of and then Ms Jacobs remembers all the files that we had in the basement down here that, um Michelle used to have to climb over the boxes to try and find what we were looking for. So times have definitely change. We do need to have, um Uh, we can't in going into the future. We can't have Um We can't just rely on on revenues by taxing our own residence. We have to rely on grants and other sources of funding that come from the outside the state, the federal government and we've been somewhat successful in that, but we need to kind of do that as a way of life. Not just, you know, looking like we're doing better in that regard. We there has to be some expectation in a formal program. We started that with our grant, writer. And um and then which means that, um What was it The, um We did not get our our community center. I'm sorry. Our cops and kids center Funded right because all the money went to One senators. One senator is pet list or something like that. OK so the point is, we don't have a lobbyist. We apply. It looks good. We get the support of our local state officials here but they'll tell you it doesn't end with them. You actually have to go up to Tallahassee, meet with them meet with the governor and explain to them how important your your your project is. Now you know, the mayor would be one person that would go. But that person is only going to be in office. Uh, guaranteed maybe the rest of their term, maybe the next term if it was in their first term, But the continuity has gotta be the city manager. And so that's why When he's out also, uh, kind of seeing what the rest of the cities are doing down here in in Pinellas and going to outside organizations and meeting with them, Um somebody has to mind the store back here. And um, that that has to be done. So we do need to have some, uh, excellent, Uh, department heads that will count on them. But the Times have changed on that. So the city manager we hired today is not going to be the guy that's gonna roll up his sleeves and, uh, like I used to jump in the manhole and try and help the guys dig and plug up a sewer. That's great, but I probably wouldn't You know, the city manager today isn't going to do that. Um the city manager today is gonna rely on, um Having contractors, emergency contractors set up to jump in and take care of that. If our own guys don't do that, we did that as well. But we always try to do it ourselves first, which often times didn't work out, But that city manager's got a kind of be outward looking rather than inward. Looking In addition to minding what's going on, and, um he's ultimately accountable, but he's got other people below him that that, uh, takes care of the daily things. Um. OK so, um, I? I wanted to mention just to summarize what I wanted to say for agenda. Item one. We've got the brochure that would go along with the advertising. We've got the advertisement. We need a set a date. Um, with, um Of how long we're going to advertise for, And then also, um, we need to, um Uh, I. I guess Ms Kniffen is gonna be the, uh um The, um the person that's gonna lead or take the lead on the city staff. Is that correct? Yes, That's how I envision it. And then what I would recommend is see how many applications are coming in before we start thinking about having another committee, Uh, do a kind of a clearing house sort of approach. If it only comes to 15 advert 15 applicants. I don't know that we need to have a whole committee that needs to look at that. So I mean, if it turns out to be 100 Probably, and then we can talk about that towards that time, but I don't think we need to make that decision tonight. Um see, manager? Of course. You got anything left on this one? No just the things I think are important is I like you to look at it again? Because I know there was one change and what I sent you. There is one change we did. We did not put enough in about our reverse osmosis, Um, plant and that capability coming in and managing and stuff. Um so that's one thing we're gonna add to what we are as a city so I would want one last. It doesn Be tonight, but you know real soon because I like to get any other additions or or, um, anything that you want added subtracted from it and maybe come back at the next commission meeting and approve what's going out. Um I say only slight change in Paul Smith is gonna be on this committee where he already was prepared to be working on this, especially if we went in house. He had experience. I had him working with the Slaven group. Um, not anticipating this was gonna happen, but I just had To keep me out of the process working with this lab group, So he has experience come in with Jane and probably we'll, You know, we'll we'll use the expertise of our procurement director. Also instead of has the team putting together for but, um So, so he's the one who made the recommendation about the adding that to the brochure for than anything else we wanna There's anything else we wanna add or change and, you know, try to bring it back to you. Tuesday night next Tuesday night, if I if you can get it to me within the next couple, you know, couple of days looking over and get to me. We can do it. I think we can. We can do it real fast and then put it on the agenda to this is the This is what we set the day to agree on the date of that, OK? OK Yeah, And then And then, like I say to do that, for the thing, and then tonight, you'll say once we put it out once the first time frame when we come back, and whatever that is 60 or whatever whatever the time period is, And then again, I agree. We should see what we have there and then then decide. OK Where do we go about screen going through and screening the process? DEC. Decide when we get the applications because a lot of cities have been doing this some cities in the process now I know Regina is involved with one Saint Pete Beach. Um I actually sent an inquiry to him, Not because I was gonna apply for their job, but I wanted to get their brochure to see what they they put out and did with it. Um, because there's their applications are starting. I think. I think Monday. They ended, um their applications, So I want to look for the brochure part. So we decide what the time frame after we get it out. You decide. We get it out. And then again, I agree with looking like what do we got? 40 60 20. What do we have there and then how we're going to go about the process. And you know, I have a heavier involvement almost like the internal auditor I envisioned with this commission. I don't see staff or something. Bringing you 20 out. You know, we may give you a suggestion of what we see. But anybody you wanted on Just to look at because once we get that list, um we need to break it down. But then we gotta decide at what point At some point we have to do hire out somebody to do the thorough background. We do that. But we won't want to do this until we get it down. Maybe 10 5 because of expense wise, But we do have to get to the point where we're reading it down. And then OK, we've got a group 5, 10 , 7, whatever that is, and do the thorough background check, So we're not coming into the situation that that, uh, Mayor Protos talked about or something to do that and stuff. So why don't why don't you work in into the agenda item? The authorization to hire You need as far as outside resources for accomplishing. That's the only thing I. I think we're prepared from the last process and the staff. I've got to do that, But that's the one thing we'll have to hire out. I hope that's not a great expense. But it's not. You know it. It's something that that we need to do. OK, Vice Mayor Eisner Thank you, Mayor. Um I did. Listen and, uh, Commissioner CU coat, uh, said something that was very important he wants to and I agree with him. He wants to make sure that Commissioner Uh, the Donato is here for the decision. So I backtracked and I always like to take Um, that Deadline and move it backwards and see how we work from there. And by doing that, I mean, we have And meetings. Um that I see. And in addition to the 10 meetings, I don't want to get into personal things, but there always could be a medical issue, a travel issue or something. Which we haven't discussed yet that that 10 meetings until till till Commissioner D Donato Uh, is off the board. So if that is our deadline We have to backtrack. And see how much we need to do in between. Um Because we have 10 meetings and like I said, we don't know about. Vacation We don't know about travel. Did you know? Uh uh, times where we don't have all five commissioners. It's idealistic to speak about this when it's on paper, but we really have to be dealing with the realistic world. I also would like to ask, Um if it's I don't know. I don't think we can take a vote now, But I would like to ask, um Slavin it what type of Course would be now since we have so much, um Prepared already by them. Would have cost it wouldn't be the same as it would be before and at the same time they would be under different criteria because again we now have an established agreement that the city manager, um is he's got a step down date. So I do think that we would get a different approach I. I would like I. I heard also again what Commissioner Goulard said about the And I know he backtracked a little bit on the speed. You know, I understand It's an important thing, and I understand he. He knows it's an important thing. But He's not wrong. That time. The word speed is not there. But time is of the essence. And I think that's a better way to put it so I. I would like to get A good deal of people. I'd like to have somebody else screening it. Um and us doing the final. Or you know, the weeding out of the last few, Um, because I do think time is of the essence. And I wanna have a five member board to make all of the decisions that we have to make so Um, I. I think the purpose of the HR director is gonna she is gonna screen if they're not qualified. I don't think they're going to get into. They're not a. She does that on our other, Um Employees as well. If they're not qualified for the job, I don't think that Um They come forward. I don't I mean, Do you have any thoughts on that or Or do we want to put Ms Diffin in that position, or do we want to just look at everything? Well again, I. I envision something. Where where we could do a process of the checklist. I mean, that's what I'm getting the if they're not, but that wouldnt need a commissioner saw an application that they wanted to remember something separate that they could add. They could add them to the to the group. That's how I envision it. Um, almost again. Like the auditor or so, Yeah, These are probably 10 or the 15 that meet all the criteria is there's something that missed one or two and somebody might see somebody might see. And there may be a better candidate with a couple of the checks not checked. I'm just because they're overall They're from a city on a waterfront. Um, dealing with her . You know, there could be other factors in there. Um that you may want that you wouldn't live just because our screening group came with us on a win. Eliminate the process of using somebody that you least like to go to the background process and stuff to go again. That would be your decision, But but, um I would see that kind of be a partnership. If uh do we have a timeline of how long that's going to take? That's my then would be. I mean, we're not gonna know anything until we start advertising. How many? I mean that And then once we start advertising, I don't think, uh, Ms Kniffen or the city manager is gonna just sit back to see how it goes. If things are evolving, I know he's gonna come to us, Uh, for an agenda item for direction. What do you want us to do? We've We've only gotten five and we're 80% through the time frame. Now do we just finish up and re averts or or? Uh, we've gotten 100 and 50 of these applications. And we were into it only 30 days of the 90 days, should we go ahead and set up a committee and start knocking these out before we finish, and I mean, that's that's our envision. But every journey begins with the first step. And until we take that first step, we're not gonna get to the end of it. And I think the first step is just Getting the word out there as we have already described, which I don't think is anything sophisticated. Um, and get that out there and see what's coming back. May. May I offer a suggestion? Uh I don't know how long it would take the clerk's office to get get that out. But I would imagine it wouldn't take that long to get it into the three areas we've discussed. Um, so perhaps we I agree with you, Mayor. We need some kind of deadline. What? What about April 30th? That gives more than enough time but yet it still gives us time to get done. What we've got to get done after that. That's what I was saying the city manager for the agenda item would set come back with, um, the wording on the advertisement. We've got the brochure he would come back with what our cut off date would be to give us enough time to actually look at the application. So that, um, you're still on the board, and, um and all of that would be done over this next couple of days, which I don't with Ms Kiffin's help. I don't see That's gonna be, uh Um Yeah, With the approval being on on the second, we would immediately start the only time for his for his IC MA. How long did it take? Once we give it to them? You know, when do they get out? Which I don't imagine is a long period of time, but we would start the Wednesday the third distributed to all the people. We want this we will start the third distribute, and then we can get back to you. By the way. The ice you know, on the fifth of April is when they put it out in the IC MA or the 10th. They put it out once a week. We'll let you know when each of them put it out. Um But we'd be ready to submit it to. You know, we'd be ready. If you approve it Tuesday to start sending on Wednesday, the third to all the people that go through their process of sending out Then we can tell you the ad went out. IC M May April 10th It went an F CCMA, Uh, the ninth. It went into, uh, the, um You know the league cities this date and I imagine they're all within a week or so I would. I wouldn't imagine there'd be more than a week or 10 days when they would actually put their eye out. Then you just say the first Or the first thing this much of time. You know, before we'll start looking at the A. You know you you make the time frame of how many days? Um, before you start looking, uh, to give the people the time to do them and submit them and to start the process. What What is that process and the IC MA like all of these is has got an online job portal. So you give it to them. They post it on their online job portal, and it's just that they go from there. And um, and it happens pretty fast. Yeah, that's pretty quick. Yeah. So, um, OK. Unless there are any other comments on this item. Let's stop the discussion here and then we'll at the end of the item two unless y'all wanna go ahead and give direction to the city manager right now to go ahead and have something for next Tuesday night, we see is how we You know we have a special special consent agenda items. Two of them, uh, in this official meeting has been televised. Let's let's move forward. Let's authorize what we need to authorize to get it. Get it done. I think Mark's plan. What he just said, made perfect sense to me that there's no you are at a workshop and you're you don't make formal decision, or are we in a special a special session session so you can vote on it? OK? Sorry. If everybody's happy and don't want any input, input to the ad is And now, as I say, I asked you to add. I ask that we want to add about the, uh, the plant. Um in in the description. That's all I tend to add. So if you if you have nothing else to add to that, then we start the process of you know, we can start the process of getting it together and putting it out tomorrow. II I personally would like to see us go ahead and also say, Mayor that that we need to get our checklist. Um pretty soon And so maybe I, I would suggest that you all I mean pretty much each of us if we hit on items that we're looking for Uh, so why don't you write those down and let's let's submit them to the clerk and then and then then come together with those ideas and then agree on what our checklist is? Because we've got to have that to pick our candidates. We don't have to have it to advertise. But we have to have it to pick our candidates. So we need that to me is the next thing we got to work on. Um a along those lines. What I have found to be helpful is if you do have your Checklist up front and make it part of your advertising materials Because then your candidates know what's expected. Know how they're going to be evaluated and understand when they're submitting their applications. What information you're looking to vet? Um it just it, it will make the process that much smoother and then I also I'm not sure whether or not you all, uh, you discussed having a citizen committee, but if you are going to do any sort of committee It should be established via a resolution as an ad hoc committee. Um and whether, and also the composition of that committee. What You're delegating to them. What you vetting pro? What exactly? They are vetting to go up to you. And also along the lines of the checklist. Sometimes it's helpful, um, for the vetting process to have, like points. You know, some sort of point system or valuation system so that when you go through to evaluate these, you can have X number of points for this particular item that you're vetting like education. And how many points are you awarding for education? How many points for experience and certifications? Things like that references? Um Also, I would imagine probably, it'll be your human resources department That will be vetting the references. Um you know, but whether you want it to be staff, whether you want it to be citizens and former elected officials or or however you want it to be that needs to be contained in a prepared resolution. But that would be that could be. I don't think we did that. But I think that you should do it beforehand because if you do it after the fact Um then it's almost like shooting dart darts in the dark. Um if you have that information, prepared up front, then it will make the information that you put out to these organizations more concise, more clear, more vetted. Mhm. What you're saying is that should be included in the resolution. Um, it can be included in the resolution. Um but it's more important that, um , you're up front with your candidates and that the people that are applying know that you have a process for vetting. Um you will attract more qualified candidates. If they know and understand that you have a process in place for vetting. Um and that there's some forethought and some forethought before the fact of advertising rather than just rushing To get it through. Maybe bring it back for, um, You know, give some direction today about what you want in the resolution. Um and we can bring something forward, Uh, next Tuesday, but it may not be till the following Tuesday. If you don't like, what's what? The way the resolution looks when it comes out. Um I think that it would probably behoove you to decide that tonight. Well, we've got time. Um Let let's just have an isolated, um, con conversation. Just as what? Uh, just on the item that Ms Kardash, um suggested, and, um, Commissioner Curia. You had your line on anyway, So go ahead. Sure I just do We wanna come to agreement that the No, We're gonna get this advertised. Once we come to agreement on what the criteria is and the advertising at this next BOC meeting. We're gonna have the advertised, uh, city Attorney do For our city to do the in house advertising to these other agencies or organizations that we talked about. Is a need to be a budget resolution for a certain amount, but advertising at all to these organizations I don't think they charged on the committee. They don't I. I don't know. That's why I don't I I'm not sure that they do. OK, so, but that's Now do we also want to consider Mayor A. As we talked about And we're halfway through this process, and I I'd like 45 days. I'd like at least somewhere between April 30th and may 15th to be the end date. But I would like to see if there's A day in between there or two thirds along the way, do we need to have a special session or report an agenda item to consider Maybe a committee if we get a lot of Uh, applicants or to, um Uh, Consider, um Our other avenues within that, you know, so Do we have or to have the headhunter? I'm sorry. I lost my train of thought or at that point. If we don't get enough people do we have a headhunter Find help us halfway through the process, And so I wanna get that squared away. Too, if we could, but definitely let's start moving forward and get priorities to get the advertising done within the first couple of days after this next BOC meeting. OK, let me um Let me get commissioner Kano, Selma. Ask uh, city manager, Of course for his thoughts on this particular item , too. Um on just this part that we're talking about, Uh, Commissioner Kiana, Go ahead. Yeah, um Page eight and nine of the brochure. That was. I mean, this brochure was worked pretty extensively with Slavin and in conjunction with our city. And it's got You know position requirements and it goes through all the criteria of what we were looking for, then I don't. I can't imagine it's changed much. I think what going back to what? Uh, City manager asked us to do is go through this. And he suggestions we have on additions or uh or subtractions. But this has what we need in it. It's got the all the criteria set that we were asking for. Of the of the, uh, the first time we went out and it's got even personal characteristics desired of a city manager, and it's got all the criteria on Page eight, which is pretty extensive. So I think we go back to what the city manager uh, asked us to do initially is go through this. Add and subtract. Um we can throw our suggestions to him. He can put them together between now. I don't know if it's You can do it between now and the in the meeting on Tuesday, possibly if you give them to me by the end of the day Wednesday. I can because I'll do a Thursday morning and then we, uh we can move on that. So I think we've already got it here. Yes. OK, and we went through this pretty extensively, so OK, um, same manager. Of course, I. I know, uh, the committee outside Committee and stuff. Well you know, I've just seen and know of the makeups and you know, I got I have some qualms with the committee aspect. But I may not in time, I. I agree, and I understand the importance to see attorneys getting that in and I don't mind if there's a clause in there that after the applications come in, the city is gonna put together a screening team that may involve and have all that in there, but I think I think we need Wait to see what we've got. What pool? We've got, Um again it by the number and stuff. It may, uh by the number. It may actually demand we maybe add that kind of committee. If it's not that, But if we put some kind of language into the ad that we're talking about coming Tuesday night that that's gonna be established at the end that it will be you know, there will be things established in committee. You can. You know you can look at the number and then say what is best. You know a lot of things that adding people from our science and so it it complicates the matter not and I'm not so sure. In some ways it helps the process or or it doesn't help the process so it could go either way. I just think we need a lot more time to think about that. And uh and that would be my recommendation because I do have some qualms about that. The makeup and I think it takes more time to take more time for us to process and see which way we wanna go. Um did you turn your light off and turn it back on? I think it's it goes to what the mayor said. If we have 15 applicants. We don't need a screening committee of any kind, and we get 150. Maybe we do so let's just I think Let's get it out there and let's see what happens. And then we can, um we can counter punch rather than trying to determine in what strategy is now. OK? Uh, just for from a cautionary point it it seems like maybe I misunderstood. But um, if there was no change, you would get it out right away. But I still think maybe Tuesday night we should just give us a couple of days to kind of think things through. Talk to Ms Kardashian. If you got any questions with what she said, and let's just take a formal vote on it on Tuesday night, and you have more time than Wednesday. Just if you want them in my backup. You give it to me By the end of the day Wednesday, you still got Thursday Friday to talk and come Tuesday night and make changes Tuesday night to it, So it's not that you gotta get these things in it. Just for what I'm gonna put in the backup. And then you still got more days again. I suggest talking to the attorney thinking some more and then you can bring additional ones. All I need by when Wednesday is what I'm gonna put in the backup Thursday. For a thing. And then then you'll make the final decision. You can add anything else. You want the meeting Tuesday night? All right, That's um So we're gonna finish item one up Tuesday night next Tuesday night. That's what the board is that it is that agreed with everyone. So I, I would say that that process is also open to anybody who would be applying in house as well. That's what I wanted to add. We need to look at Page eight right now in position requirements. Does that include In House employees applying anybody can apply. OK, so as long as it's Within the way it's written we that was a given to begin with, but that's the point of agenda. Item number two as well. We're so thank you, Um, let's go to, um is that so? Tuesday night we finish up item. We won't be finishing it up. We'll just come to closure on it on the on the Um, next Tuesday night. Agenda. Item number two I'm gonna just introduce this. And then the city manager got, um, a Hopefully a lot to say about this, Um And I'm gonna start off with myself. I know that there was some discussion. Off and on about an assistant city manager. And, um And for me, um You know, I took somewhat of a hard stand for a couple of reasons. One It's something that happened to me as city manager, and it was actually related to the charter. And um, some commissioners wanted to provide me a city Uh, assistant City manager because I was double headed as city engineer and city manager at the time. And, um And they felt that I could use the help. The, um The problem is that the, uh, Assistant City manager is, um, is an employee of the city manager, not the commission. And so the concern was that there would be this kind of Thought that whoever is assistant city manager would automatically become city manager. And there was a lot of, um Opposition to that, because that would take the commission out of the loop. Um and then, on the other hand, Um the commission, um, basically ratifies. The uh whoever the city manager would want his assistant city manager. Uh so if the commission doesn't like the person he chooses and turns him down And then the city manager is forced to hire a, uh Um, uh, AAA person who may be the commission would like Then, basically that automatically it to some extent, puts him at odds with the individual because that individual is gonna know is the commission that got him hired not the city manager who he actually works for. So there's some problems with just hiring an assistant city manager. On the other hand, um I understand the idea of this concept of grow your own. I don't like the term, uh, grow your own, but I. I like the idea of getting somebody, um , that has been here at the city for a while, um, to become city manager if they're qualified. And the rationale before. That is when, uh I left the city manager, a couple of departments heads have left. They it? It's uncanny. How Quickly things the work that you do, even even elected officials. The work that you do unravels. You know, you get the city heading in a certain direction. Then all of a sudden, the next person comes along and has their own ideas. We basically, um, stop the strategic plan as it was identified, and we and, uh, the Ms Poso, the city manager who followed me created her own way of, Um uh uh, performance evaluations of meeting goals and objectives, And that was, um that that was a different way. She did it as a letter. I did it actually, as part of the budget. And then we wound up. Um Getting off some other things. And, um and we kind of, um Uh, you know, we are where we are. Whereas um, the thing that I would be concerned about is this, uh, for example, the economic development with the needs based versus asset based of going down that road and we get some somebody that decides they're gonna start building and increasing height of buildings and stuff like that. That's the city manager, and that's what they know. And that's what they want to do. And they really haven't, uh, signed off on this other stuff. Of course, that would go through the, uh The interview process, but nevertheless, you can. You can take somebody that's been here for a number of years that have seen how this has evolved, and they see what the importance of so that's the value of having somebody in house. The downside is, um Um And I'm gonna use a couple of department heads that that are here As as, uh, as, uh as an example of you know, Scott Young is the fire chief. He does fire chief. Uh, Renee Vinson's, uh, planning director she does planning director Uh, Bob's project Management. Uh, Janina is, uh, purchasing. There's a whole lot more to being, um As city manager. And um, and the dilemma is, it's a more volatile position as well. If you give something up, that you're very, um, comfortable with that, you know you your paychecks guaranteed and you throw yourself into a political arena that Tends to The winds change with the in the direction changed with the Venter weather vane. Um you know you and I'll tell you this. I had some regrets when I left Being the, uh, city engineer and becoming city manager. Uh I did it because I was asked to do it, but I and I did it. But after about five years of work in my Rear end off I was extremely tired. And I should have just stayed as as city engineer, if that would have accomplished what I needed to do with my family. So those are the sort of things I don't want to hang a carrot out there that seems like it's glitters. It's golden. It's attractive, but it may not be the best for that person because they don't understand the environment that they're getting into. And having said that I don't think the solution to that and this is the city manager. I believe agrees with this, and he's going to talk a little more about that. Is that to establish a training program where we have assistance to the city manager, where they voluntarily, um, accept certain conditions of, um additional training that they would have to go through to be an assistant to the city manager , mostly IC MA type training on how to be a city manager. What it involves, Uh, part of the training would also be going down to other cities around Pinellas County. Visiting County offices, see how they operate, Get some experience. What they do as as a professional here at the city to get that idea. And hopefully and I haven't looked into this. Maybe the city manager has if they can achieve their certification IC MA certified And as far as I'm concerned, they're they're qualified to be city manager. And if they take the job, knowing what they know that's their problem. But if they take the job based on what we think that they'll, Yeah, you'll do a good job or get on there and then three years later, four years later with a different commission out on the street, looking for something that's a different story. So that's my, uh, motivation for Um, creating, uh, kind of like, uh, you know, we've got our citizens Academy something like a city manager Academy or something like that for our own department heads that might want to sign up. That doesn't mean they want to be city manager. But at least they'll get the experience to make that decision and informed decision, the information we provide them. Rather than them taking a chance. When I don't mind I tell him when, when Mark took became from lieutenant to police chief, it was on the condition. That was when Chief Bergstrom, Pa. He He basically died jogging around. Uh, Spring Bay. You um when? When Mark took the police chiefs, he was thrown into that when he took he loved being a lieutenant when he became police chief. It was on the condition that if he didn't if it didn't work out for him as police chief, he would go back to his lieutenant's position. When he became city manager was the same deal if it didn't work for him as city manager, he would go back to his old position. I don't think we could do that today. And that's the big difference. And so, uh, the city manager survived over this 14 years and You know, he he I know he looks 85 years old, but he's really in his sixties. So anyway, uh, Mark, do you wanna add something to that, or Well, that's true. That was one of the toughest decisions a couple of them I had to make. But basically I see item two is You know something I do in some form , no matter what would what goes on tonight and stuff. The importance of this to remember how I even got into this. This decision to go forward city manager when the selection process I think 99 98 99 whatever the selection process was, and I wasn't on the one for M Pos back, But I did work with HR some, especially in the negotiation, the P. They brought me to negotiate. And this pos that was a tough negotiator. Um they brought me in that process. Um But what she did at that time Was obviously she came from Virginia. I mean, Virginia didn't even have sunshine Law. You didn't have to tell nothing. The public didn't get informed of anything. You could have meetings do things outside. There was no sunshine. So it was a big shock to her when she came in there about the sunshine Law and stuff. Obviously she didn't know the city. Good So what she used was a vacant position that was vacant at the time was the administrative service director. She took me as chief. Since I'd been I'd been acting while the Was going on. And she told me if I'd stay on and she you know, she gave me 5% and I'm the acting administrative Services director kind of activated that and it'd be about six months or so if I be there, um, you know, help her get to meet the people and, uh then I can move back to my police chief. 8.5 years later when she left she never. She never put me back and I remained that acting administrative service director for those 8.5 years where she was sitting, managing, because just the value needed for her to go to Tallahassee for her to go for the plant for her to go around and do everything she did somebody, especially with knowledge of the city need to be here to do the nuts and bolts and you know, I pride myself third time. If I did anything for the city, I was able to hold down the fort while that City manager can do a lot of the same things that you're looking for in this new city manager. A lot of things you're looking for them to do. They're gonna need somebody to hold down the fort. Um many ways you could do it. You could do it the same way with that position. You could do the acting scene at a position. Although it's a charter. I mean by the charter. It's uh you have to live within the city, and that could be a problem. For some, Um, you could create a position assistant to the city manager. If it was me then and it went through a lot of years where I was offered, bringing an assistant city manager, But every time they want to bring in for me, I needed another position or another two positions that were real. For the operation of the city, I. I said no to that, Please Commission and Mayor Allah who is with a big on that Please, Mayor. We need those two positions. You can't fund those two positions and fund me an assistant city manager. I'll get by. I'll get by. And of course, you know a lot of the issues I had with me and stuff was, Of course, I kept trying to get by. And this is a whole another world. Like you said, this is this is a whole new other world. Uh, city managing every year and stuff, so I kept getting by, but I did What Ellen did. I had Bob coaching. Come in, Um, to be kind of that administrative service to help me and stuff. You know, after that, Um you know it was Paul Smith. The reason I could do that with them is they had built good departments under and I built a good department to me so I could come over and be Ellen Possum Backs administrative services decision because I had to. I had Jeff Young I had Bob coach and I had you know the so I had I had an organization that could do Without me for a period of time. But dilemma you have today is whether it's a Paul Smith or a police chief. There is so much going on. It's not even something that one person you can take away from the department to help me. Um you're gonna hurt them. In any case, Which is why if it was me, and one of the suggestions we talking about is and I call it designation from now I haven't put together what it would look like, Um, you know, in the HR processing, but what I would do was now you have me give you you know, three S City manager candidates If I'm if I'm gone sick, get the There's three people that the commission has to approve to be my acting city manager. What I would do is probably look at that process and take those three that that that you approve and divide up the city departments, duties and stuff, probably among those three to assist in different things. That's why you're not killing one department again. Paul Smith was lucky he had Tommy Tiger coming up, but Um, so it would be something of that for they be something to an assistant. They had that they would just move into a slot where they get five or 10% increase and would move in and move out. Those people would come into it, knowing that they're going to get the management train. Whether it's IC. Whatever it is management training, additional training, it would be a course of action where they could build for the future. But remember, also, it's important. I know a lot of people in the field. There's a lot of people who would love to get up to the assistance to the city. The manager and not go that next level to jump into the fire of politics. That's the imagine so if you don't create a future city manager, you're creating two or three people in here who can run the city. If something happens, you know, I got in because our chief, I was 3 to 5 years away from being ready to be chief. But he dropped dead of a heart attack and I had to make the decision and we ready to go down and do on job. You don't know what circumstance this way You have three on staff people that even if they didn't Achieve the city manor thing. They'd be great assistant to the manager, not only assist while you have that manager doing things but would be be available at at all times and you'd have and you wouldn't affect one apart in the in individually by taking one that would be kind of the set up working with the board. I mean, it could be too too. It could be three I. I would say three. You're training. Those people not necessarily be the next city manager, but to be great managers and just, you know, Not that they are now but you know, I would be able to factor the training into it, Um, to get them that train that that they needed, um to go and step out and be great career for those individuals in the city. It'd be great for their careers Great for their resume not to go somewhere else, hopefully, but to grow in the apartment and grow in their abilities, um, because I imagine in five years to see a manager job, even gonna you're gonna need a lot more help for that Same man, because it it's complex and changed. Now I Gonna change more over the next time, so it prepare the city and prepare everybody that that would kind of be my thought on the process instead of getting somebody or looking for one assistant city manager or something like that, that would be mine. Obviously it's a board decision, but I just wanted to throw out from what myself and I've been talking to the mayor about my ideas and stuff. Something like that. Some kind of process like that. Um um, for our individuals and a structure where if you get the city manager you want and what you Them to go out. And do you have a capable staff to run the city and do the nuts and bolts? Um to keep people from complaining to you? Well that city manages away taking care of business. Getting us money, Um, getting us things. Um, it would be the perfect situation. No, just, uh Let me finish up. Basically the also the idea. I know the city manager was thinking maybe of letting this uh Be under the purview of the next city manager , But I told him no I. I think we need to talk about that before he leaves because he's got the experience to put it together. Not someone else. So uh, let me finish up on that note and go to Vice Mayor Eisner. Thank you, Mayor. Um Most of the points that you made I agree with, um I, But I also think it's up to the Current city manager, whether he needs an assist, or whether the new city manager needs an assist as well. We don't know the qualifications. We don't know how they work. Um some people work better alone. Some people work. It's his right. Yeah, So, yeah. I don't have any authority. We don't have any authority who he picks is who he picks. All I know and the reality of it. Individual commissioners go to department heads telling them how great city managers they are. It goes. Commission to say, you know, the department has said they take the job and then a few you know, a few years later, it's like, Oh, my God, you know, did I make a mistake? So I understand, But it says his job to actually flesh that out, But go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt. Not not a problem. Um I can't count on my hands and feet. How many times I've seen somebody go from? The end to chief and then just wish they never made that decision to become chief. So I agree with you as well. Um I've put many people in business and they've wanted to sell me the equipment afterwards. So it it's it takes a very Um A multitask type person to be that personable person to the residence at the same time being a leader at the same time, you know, we all have different, strong and weak suits. So I. I really think it should be someone selected by that city manager. Sometimes they may need it. Sometimes they don't Um I do believe that we should supply uh, training. Um, because it's good to have the backup. We currently do. Have the backup right now. Um it could be a part time basis, But it is a big step when you leave your Um, salary position into a hotbed position which our city manager sits in right now, so Um, I. I just think it's up to the city manager to do it. I'd support either decision that they make whether it's Yes. They want it. No they don't. Um I don't think that that person that's working for the city manager should report to us. Um Just because for the mere fact that the city manager controls all aspects of the city and To have that person report to five different commissioners. No OK, No, I'm saying no to that. No, no, no, That's that's the point. The charter restricts that from happening, right? Well, that makes right. It made no sense. I. I kind of maybe misunderstood you. You speaking like that, Um, I think that everybody has to report to him and Just I. I think you'll all know when Paul's left. I send something to Paul. Can you do this? He doesn't just go do it and then tells me he checks with the city man first, then if he says, OK, fine. If he doesn't then Paul, say the same man. She wants to wait until he gets back. Um And then if ST Andrew says, Go ahead and do it, I get it back, uh, from Paul that that and it always is, is through the city manager. I know, but I do the same thing. Um and our city manager knows Mark knows that go ahead. So the main point of an assistant city manager is this stigma associated with assistant city manager becoming a city manager for some commissioners and not wanting that to happen. There's been this The city manager knows what I'm talking about. Regardless of how we feel about it, there's a whole 24,800 others out there that feels that there's something more going to steal Somebody's Comment. Not too long ago under the table, uh, going on and so to avoid that it would be, uh so we're we're trying to push that individual into a city manager position. This would be a way to actually train that individual. Not just put somebody because everybody likes him as city manager, but to make sure he's qualified as he had described. I wanna make sure it's got nothing to do with the city manager or that individual reporting to the commission. Their whole always report the city manager. Um Did you have anything else? Ok let me let me just stop there. Let me go to public comments. Um, first, I should have done that before we went to Vice Mayor Eisner. Uh, any public comments on this item? Your Lux 514 Ashland Avenue. I appreciate you coming to the public to speak first, but sometimes it's nice for the public to hear what all y'all say so we can either retort or Further go off on a tangent that you bring I think what marks portraying, uh, is a good system. It gives him the flexibility to If he needs someone who has a little more experience with the public works , and that's something that's going on. That needs attention at that time when The manager goes to Tallahassee or down to the county to meetings and That makes sense. Um But as I mentioned before, I, I think it is good to have some kind of Step zone or training program, not only as it's mentioned for the city manager but also to help these other departments. You know you bring in new planners or you bring in People that are working in the project or public works so Why not? Encourage a whole citywide. Training education process. I think that would incentivize other employees who Maybe hadn't thought about Maybe certain progression and their Career wise, but it would allow them to Have those opportunities to see what real life is, like, You know, maybe in the fire department. Someone in public works wants to learn, you know, Cross, you know, and I'm maybe that's too far of a cross. But I think you get the picture. Um, I did wanna add one note from The last segment when y'all were talking about the number of meetings and all that stuff, I think Uh, you need to allow At least 30, but as it was recommended, 45 days from the day you advertise. That's your deadline. As far as how to solve some of these other issues. If you look at the calendar in April and July You have 1/5 Tuesday. And one thing more. Uh, Ellen did we had plenty of Plenty of workshops or special sessions on that fifth Tuesday, so Don't feel your clog Just by that 1st and 3rd Tuesday, you've got two other meetings that you would be able to evaluate people prior to Uh, Commissioner did Donato no longer filling that seat, So just wanted to throw that in? Thank you. Anita for 91 Be sure drive. It has changed since I was on the board big time. It changed since Frank's been on the board and Peter has been on the board. And it's gonna change. And it's Mr Eisner says, and he's so wrong. I don't want to be mayor. I wouldn't sit up there again and be mayor. And I don't think I'm here. But I have insight and I see what's happening. And sometimes people don't know everything in the background of others. Remember that and what's going on in commissions. I like what Mars proposed. He needs it. You see how Saint Pete and Tampa has grown? Look what's happening in Tampa now. They're worried about their growth. And what did their mayor say? Everything's happened at one time, and we do the best we can. It was on Channel eight. Saturday night. I think it was Um Mark needs help. And I think it's a very good idea. He's brought everything good for us to the city. This is a good idea and you need to go after it because in five years from now it's gonna be so different. That whoever comes no matter how professional he is, they all need help. And I congratulate you on what you're doing for Tarpon and what you brought forth tonight. Uh, Mr City Manager. It's a wonderful show on your training, your education and what you've done with your family background for tarpon. Are there any other public comments? Mr. Jump. Are there any remote access comments? Aside of please raise your hand and you'll be allowed to install . And we do not have any raised hands at this time. OK, thank you. Let's go back to the commission. I've only got one light on right now. And that's Commissioner. Julian, did you turn your light on just now? I had it on. Oh, you went off and just came on again. All right, go ahead. So I think that, uh, whatever III. I like the idea that Mark has proposed. I also like the idea of filling the administrative service Director position. Um, I think whatever we do with With Mark. It's we're talking about nine months. Right, so Um We want that same Model. To be Uh, we'd want to suggest that same model to be used with the new city manager. Um, I think it'll it'll allow for Mark to be more effective in the time that he is remaining with the city, and it will also make The new city manager have an opportunity to be more effective. Um, I remember when you told me a story once when Povich was here. That you were in a meeting with her with a bunch of locals. And since she was from somewhere else, she didn't quite know the demographic. Uh Tendencies of the of these people. And you were able to pick up on it. And you actually shocked her. But at the end, you got what you needed to get done. So you know, having somebody who understands Who's been here understands the lay of the land would be an advantage to anyone who comes in as a new city manager, having either, um A small team or whether they have just one I don't even know that we need the assistant city manager because, like you say, it could mess up somebody's head. Rather you just fill the administrative service director position that's already In our, uh You know it just unfunded, right? So I think that, um Yeah, it allow for that person to be more effective and they should embrace it and if they don't embrace it Uh, that may be Um Grounds for our for us to give thought to the hiring. So II. I think the key is the training part of it. Uh administrative services Directors, administrative services director. The assistant to the city manager of the way that, uh , we're discussing it would require a commitment to take on Some city manager training. Uh so that if on the chances we just found out something happens to city manager Uh, the commission can reach down and actually pick one of those three to be city manager. They're not just stuck with And assistant city manager who they may not like to become city manager. But it could be somebody that's been here for 10 years is IC MA certified is gone through the thing. There's absolutely no. You know, they know the city. There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't step up. But it's his call. I mean, that's that's and any restructuring would have to be done formally through the budget, I guess or some other outside that, but would have to be accommodated. Uh, financially through the budget when we go through that process, so Um, Commissioner? Uh Kas. Let's go by some way. Yes, I. I think we need to When Mark has well, mark Isn't available for a few days or stuff we see from time to time. He placed other department heads in responsible. He He's done that before, so we This organizational panel. We sort of have this right now. The only thing that we're we're missing is the training and the education. That's Um, we're here to discuss it. And what exactly is that Because there's not too much backup material for us to go by and that these individuals would need Uh, To fill in and be cross trained in the different parts in case he he's not available or out, but Currently we did have Paul Smith retire. And if someone can help me out with answering this, we brought him back as a Assistant administrative position. Can someone help me with his actual title that we brought him back for the next six months? Bringing Paul back as in the system, But, um, yeah, sometimes , uh, assistant transition. I figure what exactly we figured the title for, but it was it was a six month designation. It was a six month destination. OK Is that what you're talking about? Yes. And so, I. I don't think And But Paul retired. And so I'm not looking for that to be the opportunity in the future to say Paul's done a great job and he should be able to fill in or take over as the next city manager, if you know We think some applications of people aren't qualified or enough I. I think we would really be letting the residents down. In that selection process. I think it would be an easier way out approach. And that's not what the residents Talk to me about They do wanna see change? I did send an email out to mark on Thursday or I believe it was Friday, Uh, asking that all department heads interested. And applying for the city manager position be present here today. And we do have some qualified individuals and I I'm happy they are here to show their support. Whether they're interested or not. They're just here for the item. And so Uh, We have The apartment that retired that we brought back on for six months. Uh, I'm not too crazy about keep extending it if you retired, and you don't want this help out within the city, but Um For a department had to come back and be an assistant and Potentially transition into that in the future. That's not what we're at least I'm looking to do. And so I do wanna be clear on that. I don't mind cross training and having educational stuff for the department Heads in case they need to take, uh, pick up but As I stated, uh, someone who's retired a department head who's retired, and we brought him back for a few months. I'm not looking to do this switch. And make them the next city manager. I think we'd be doing a disservice to our residents, and , um we need to look at all applications and make sure we do Get a hold of all applications. Thank you. And I can assure you 100% Paul Smith is does not want that wants no part of it. Um, the other The other thing is just remember the qualifications that are already listed as far as what the person has to be Q in other words, or qualification. So anybody can apply for the job. They've got to meet the qualifications and we go into the training and we're doing a great job gets done. That's a different story. I agree. Uh, Commissioner DD, Um I don't think if I read Item two, and if, if I may I will go ahead and read it, it says. Discussion regarding changes, uh to the administrative organism organization in in the education and training requirement for homegrown city manager opportunities, and I think our city manager has defined a process that is pretty reasonable. The only thing that we're not doing there yet that I'd like to see And I think that bothers me. Uh, Mark and A any city manager that comes in here because I know you. You had some reorgs. Uh uh. Mark has had some reorgs. In other words, if you create AAA position of administrative services officer, that's all well and good, But it doesn't mean that I don't have to lock this in what I'll be asking you. It doesn't mean that the next city manager will do the same thing. I mean, you fund positions and sometimes you don't you don't F. That's why I wouldn't recommend that that that's That's why, with my recommendation of what I do on a basis, because what I recommend it could be changed in six months. One afternoon. I like that better than committing to an I didn't. I didn't propose the Philip permanent position. The only thing I want to add is somehow and Miss Kardashian. Maybe you can help me Kardash II. I don't know how to Ensure that this goes on other Certainly we fund the position. But it doesn't mean the next city manager is, you know? I don't know. We have charter review coming up. I don't know if that's something you want to put in a charter, but I think we need to look at that aspect of it. Then we need to fund it. Mary you're correct. We're we're going through. We're getting ready to go through the budget session, so we'll have to fund it. Hopefully so that he's not, you know. And Paul to help help John or something. Um but that's the issue is Are we going to educate this? This one person or this? Two or three people? Uh, but firstly, II, I think you're suggesting I is a good one. And I think the only thing I want to make sure of is that we add, um, education. I think they should go and be try to get their city manager, Uh, certification process that that should be encouraged. And in one or more of these employees, and number two, I wanna try to find a way and that's what Ms Carters. We need your help there, how to make sure that this is ongoing. Because if you I know some cities have a charter assistant city managers some do not because I happen to agree with you right now. I don't know that we need a charter position for that, Um, so it should be. Provided for in the budget, and it should be filled and we should put some training requirements in there and then I think we we've solved our problem. Four Dash. Yes. So, um Technically your actions of creating the position and funding the position should suffice to, uh, be enough of a policy decision that whoever sitting in that chair is bound to fall through with that. Um and In the event that you wanted to put it in your charter. You may want to wait a bit. You can also, um if you wanted to ensure that the position was going to stay there and remain and not be subject to reorganization by whoever's sitting in that chair. You also could do it via an ordinance. Um and, um, created that way and then in the future to solidify it, then move it into your charter would probably be a little bit of a slower, more even Process to work through rather than just sticking it right in the charter, because you have to remember that your charter is much more permanent. Um and this is a new position. Um and it would probably behoove you to, um, do it a little bit slower by doing it by ordinance first and then moving it into the charter. If it's something that's successful for your city, I do not recommend that we put it in the charter. Um because the charters got enough already to for us to clarify because, I don't want them there. But I but I number one. If we fund the position, I think it should be a permanent position. And then whoever is sitting up here on this commission, we'll have to I'm sure that that That person is there or that training is there so that someone can step in? Because sometimes your city manager needs to be out of town, especially if you're gonna like the RO plan. I. I know Lan had to leave several times to go talk and lobby to get money. Uh And there are times when he needs help. Uh, O other than that, as well. So I. I just want to assure that that it's ongoing and that it's funded. We can include it in the personnel rules, which is done by ordinance. Um, I believe your personal rules are adopted by resolution, not by ordinance. Um, I would have to double check that because I haven't been here when you've, um adopted them, but I'm fairly certain usually when I do personnel rules, I do that I an ordinance by well. You can, um the ordinance you would want to codified in your administration section. Um in order to kind of create that permanency and that in that position, um, but the again the personnel manual. If you're doing it that way, and it's a position that you've established and it's funded either way, the person that's sitting in that city manager seat should be following through on those types of policies that's really part of their job is to follow through on the policies that you set in place. If you're doing it two fold by creating the position, funding the position and being very clear with the direction you're giving them. There should be no reason. Why they don't have that person that position filled, um So, uh And all of those steps I would recommend long before I would recommend putting that type of a position in your charter. No I. I agree. There's Mean in In fairness, the sea man, there's a lot of loose ends. Um, he mentioned that ther services director position is actually in the charter. As a department head. But it's actually an unfilled position, and it's actually shown on our organizational chart in the budget as an unfilled it's unfunded, unfilled, so it exists right now. But he's not recommending to fill it. He's talking about a different sort of approach. To accomplishing the same thing, and I think we clarify the educational aspect of that type jobs. What would it go ahead in a in a personnel policy? Our job description. Um yes, you would do it as as part of the job description. Um and also I didn't see it that when I the last time and, um I could have missed it. But I don't see anything in your personnel manual. Um, that specifically provides for that type of education or educational opportunities. I do know that, um some communities do per, specifically provide for reimbursement and have something written into their personal amount. Personnel manual to help encourage individuals who do want to seek those types of, um additional education and training. Whether it's college, whether it's um Uh, as you know, associations, um, whatever the case may be to get those certifications and the education , um, in order to help them be successful, um, in their chosen path in government. Um Are there any other comments on this? What What? I would, um recommend is, um Um, if you agree that this is at least conceptually an approach that everybody would like, Let's go ahead and, uh, have a motion in a second and allow the city manager to Developed this more fully and bring that back to us as soon as you can. And hopefully with the help of Ms Kardash and also, um Ms Jackson. Is that right? Or personnel or direct Because, I really see there being some kind of an agreement between That a person that wants to become an assistant to the city manager and also with the, um, training opportunities that are provided. I don't see that person paying out of their pocket. I see the city paying for that. But there needs to be an established program for everybody to get from point A to point B. Uh, Ms Kardashian and I did just want to clarify to, um on on the whole charter concept and charter aspect. You have to remember that when you if you were to create a position What your citizens are doing by voting on that, and putting that in place is, um, essentially, um , a delegation of sovereign authority and if you're not delegating sovereign authority to this position, right, which means taking position away, taking powers that have been granted to the city manager away and then delegating it to that second individual. You really don't need a charter provision provision for them to be able to perform their job duties and functions in government. It really you have. Think of it in terms of what powers duties and authority you would be giving to this individual that would be different from the powers and duties or taking away from the powers and duties that you have already vested and your citizens , um, by their vote have vested in the city manager. Okay? Do you do you? Are you OK with? Um OK, um Does everybody understand what I was recommending for the same manager to take this on board work with Jackson on this or, um and it's just a second. Did you say you so moved But I like I like for before this comes back to be amended that we do have a list or an organizational chart of the education and training requirements for this homegrown situation. You hear what he he wants a list of the educational, um, the type of education and the requirements for that. I. I can tell you just from Working with the I The land researching some of the IC MA. Usually what they look for is a minimum of a master's degree. Um and then certification with one of these associations. Um just kind of like your base level. Um is what they look for A and you know the master's degree can be in, um, you know, Government administration or some similar type field. Um and then sometimes they'll also have a provision in there that accepts, um, experience leadership experience in government in lieu of like a master's degree, So there's a little bit of a give and take there. So just that's just what I From recent research II, I think, in large part The city manager seemed to have a handle on what he'd like to do. Why Why don't we have you put something a little more formally together? And provide the educational process in there. I don't know if we want to complicate it with a masters. I mean, that would be nice. But then then you've done some other things. I mean, right now. I don't even know that we will require a master degree for a city manager. So Yeah, I. I don't see how we could do that. Uh not that. I don't think it's a good idea, but we somewhat limit ourselves by doing that. I think I think the city manager has brought us forth. You know, two or three. He had honcho for that position, um, of which all two or three of those people would receive some training. Certainly on on the job training work. I think you learned an awful lot by by by OGT. And that would be part of the process. But I, I think some kind of formal Certification process is a good idea as well. I just wanted to add that I think you've got the handle. We just need to You the education process in there a little bit and just to keep in mind, I'm not necessarily building these people to be city manager. I'm building them to be the people that the city can go to the city manager can go to Ellen was gone for over a month. One time and I It's not like two days. I'm on vacation, someone she was gone over a month on several periods of that time stuff. So if all three of us say Listen, I'm I appreciate the opportunity, but they might not be looking again. The best job in government is that assistance to the city manager, not the city manager for obvious reasons. If you look at the average tenure of a city manager that best and some of my some of my friends in the field that are city managers, I got three of them that have taken assistant jobs, Um, to get out of what was going on there, so the number one instead of mind is build up. Two or three people in the organization to be able to be utilized for it, Not necessarily to be the next city manager. That would not be my you know, if that comes along the process. I'm not saying that I'm saying administrative services director. I think that that's much more flexible gets gets the job done. I think we complicated if we had the system City manager to it. Almost uh but you but the city manager can use use him. That person as such , you you, You should have probably been assistance as city manager rather than administrative service director. Well, that's how that's how Jobs that that's all the one that was used for me. Wasn't that Bob BTT soul job. Think so. Yeah, I think those remember Bob Blitz. Remember Bob Bublitz. I think he was the administrative was not just the, uh, Um Commissioner Donato So moved your Oh, we've got that was commissioner. A response to that? No other comment. Roll call, please. Di Donato. Yes Commissioner Quis? Yes Commissioner Kass? Yes I. I yes. Yes. OK? Say 30. Um Let's go back to the agenda. Board and staff comments. Chief Young. No comment, sir. Um Fire Chief Young You got anything to say? No sir. Um M Kardash. Nothing further. Jake Uh, City Manager? Of course, anything. No Ms. Jacobs just real quickly. I wanted to remind all that, Uh, Nominations for the charter revision are due tomorrow by five. If you haven't already done so, if you could please do so by email. OK? Um our next meeting is on, Uh, Tuesday night , and that's when we select the, uh, actually, if, if all goes well, there's the Charter Revision Commission will be selected before we actually get To the meeting meeting, So we'll see how it goes, Um The, um Uh, It's Let's go to Vice Mayor Eisner. Do you have anything? Yes, I just want to, uh Say I was very proud to be with yourself and our city manager at the Habitat for humanity. They had two Two happy homes today with three possibly more, um, coming in. Um it's a tremendous improvement. I'm very proud to be somewhat part of that, Um I mean, just I I'm just glad it was a positive all the way around. And uh, didn't rain, So it was good. Very good. Thank you. Um Commissioner. I just wanna just Uh, last week we had the Greek Independence Day parade today is Greek Independence Day. So uh, hope all all those in town that were able to celebrate as well as he thought. Tina Alaa, which means, uh, Long live grease. And so I just wanna thank everybody And today is actually my birthday. And so there's no other place that would rather be a you were in here at City Hall, doing the great things for town, and so I'm very blessed. Last year we had a little situation and so I was away and, um, I'm here this year, so it's very blessing and just thank you all. Uh, Commissioner Juliano. I wanna wish all our Protestant and Catholic Friends. Uh, happy Easter. That's it. Commissioner Di Donato. Um Uh, You know for tarpon it It's like, um Things are are rolling along quite well right now. The Greek Independence Day parade. We had a brand new, uh, Greek Independence Day board. I think that when, rather well, it was a little bit of a hiccup for the parade and everybody being there to get it started. But Uh, Chief Young took the bull by the horns . And he says the parade's starting when a C# no matter whether you're here or not, And so we did, and everybody was on board and it was very nice crowd down there. I hope, um, it was, uh, spring break and Um It was also, um Uh, well forgot was Palm Sunday, right? Uh, it was palm Sunday as well. Yeah, so that that, uh, took a lot of the people? Um, um away from that, and also we had the Citizens Academy graduates, which, um, is Jacobs and Ms Manos and Um her staff did an outstanding job with that. I think everybody is happy when the next uh Academy class we're looking at. We're just finalizing the dates we're looking at starting in September. Uh September. Yeah And, um, there were how many graduates this time? I'm sorry. How many graduates did we have? There was 19. Yeah, And the, um Um, it was the 10th class. So we keep, um, hopefully that'll, um, that'll, um Uh, Create some people who want to volunteer for the boards. And Mr Rockland, right? There was one of the graduates. He and Mrs Rockland so Was happy to see that anyway. Tarpon's doing well. Um I'm not gonna say I'm bored. But let me put it this way. I have less to do right now than I did last year at this time, which is good. And we'll see how the rest of the year goes. So uh, Vice Mayor Eisner, you turned your light on. I did. All right. What do you got to wish everybody who observes a happy P as well? And uh, that's a holiday of, uh, escaping from slavery. So, uh, You know? This is, uh, it's a celebration of, uh, getting away from an evil person by the name of Haman. So We have to say so. Thank you. Meeting adjourned at 833.