##VIDEO ID:vhZ9UtsBHOg## 006 32. I'm calling this meeting of the Heritage Preservation Board to order. Okay. Can we have a roll call? Mr. Sprecher? Here. Miss Ryan. Here. Miss Howlett. Here. Miss Kaplan. Here. Mr. Burzynski is not here. Let us know. Okay. Next we're going to have public comments, but these are for comments in general. When you have the application come up, if you're concerned with that application you can have your comments there. So if you have anything in general public comment, it's open now. Seeing none, we'll continue on. Okay. We don't have approval of the minutes. Was our judicial. You go over that with us? Yes, sir. Mr. Chair, how are you tonight? Andrew Dickman, your attorney. Thank you. So this is a quasi judicial hearing. You're going to be discussing three items tonight in a quasi judicial hearing. You're sitting as judges essentially, what you need to do are the following. One in a minute, I'll be asking you to do any what are called ex party disclosures, meaning any information or people that you may have come talked with or outside research you may have done outside of the confines of this hearing, just need to disclose those on the record. And if you have none, just say none. Then at that time, also anybody who's going to speak before you tonight will be sworn in and I will do that in a minute. Your role is to look for any competent, substantial evidence that would support the criteria, as it's explained in the staff report, your staff is an expert, is considered to be an expert as in any applicant that may bring an expert with them. So your job essentially as quasi judges is to weigh the competent, substantial evidence and compare it to the criteria that's listed in the code, which is also in the staff report. And you can see that your staff has done an analysis of that. And then staff will open it up and it'll go to the applicant. Then after that you would like to you'd have a public comment period, and then you close the public comment period. Then you deliberate and then you take a vote. Okay. So with that, I think you'd probably be best to go ahead and do any ex party disclosures for the first item. Should we do that for all the items? We could do that for all the items if you want. I mean, if it's simple enough for you to do that. Sometimes I try to separate it out because, you know, people do different things, but it's okay. Again, you know, it's any outside conversations you've had received any emails gone by the property, looked at the property, done your any of your own research online, things like that. That's what you want to disclose in order to not have a presumption of prejudice against the applicant. Okay. Does anybody have that? Well, we'll go for all three of them. Okay. I've got you know, I look at the property, you know, a lot of times when I've done it. On his time. So I'm disclosing that. What was that? Are you disclosing disclosing that I, you know, most every building that I go through that comes through here, I'll, I'll look at you go by and look at the property. Okay. Fair enough. You've gone by and looked at the property. Thank you. Yeah, that's about it. Okay. Okay. The first item is going to be application 2450. This is on North Spring Street 36. Mr. Chair, if I could swear in all the witnesses first. To all for that. Another thing to our one of our members is, is her house. So she has abstain or she's abstaining. I've got that. Okay. Oh, I'm sorry for everybody else who's going to be sorry about that. All right. Anyone who is going to testify before this board, please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? All right. There you go. Okay. Thank you. Carolyn. Okay, Carolyn, you want to give a presentation? We have application 2450 in front of us. This slide is showing you the location and context of the subject property. This slide shows you the location of the subject property within the national and register. National Register and local historic districts. This slide is just giving you some zoning context on the subject. Property. It's in the city's T4C transect zone. And this is 436 North Spring Boulevard, which is the adjacent Jacob Distant House. And they are seeking a certificate of approval for window replacement for the whole property. The current windows are a mixture of the original windows and some replacement windows. And this is the subject property as it appears in the Florida master site file. Currently. This is the 1909 Sanborn showing the property. Although the property was built circa 1888 by Jacob Disston, who was the architect and the brother of Hamilton Disston, the founder of the city of Tarpon Springs. And this is a site plan for the subject property. This is a historical photo provided by the applicant, which shows that the property has changed quite a bit over time. As you can see over here, we have some Prairie style windows. The balcony area here has been opened up. There's been changes. You know, over time. It's a building that changes over time. And the proposed project is these vinyl windows replicating the style that were shown in the previous slide. And a mixture of what was shown in the previous slide and what is extant on the structure today. Also here we're just showing you kind of a side by side of what it was at one point in time and what it is currently. Now. So and this project is showing you the different windows all throughout the property that are being proposed for replacement. So these are the relevant standards of review. Number one would be windows doors and entries. Because we're looking at replacement windows, the proposed replacement windows would retain the historic dimensions that are on currently existing. And that would be consistent with the original architecture. These proposed windows would replicate the style of the historic windows, and include the Prairie style single hung, double double hung, horizontal roller and picture windows. Although the Prairie style windows are typically associated with a craftsman style, we do have historical evidence that the structure did once have those. And then the next relevant standard for review is architectural features. And the windows are kind of always a distinctive architectural feature of a property. And these original wood windows would be replaced with vinyl windows. And although the project would destroy original materials, the proposed vinyl replacement windows would generally replicate the visual qualities of the original wood windows. Next standard for review is adherence with the Secretary's guidelines. Generally. The project does not strictly comply with the guidelines because it's proposing replacing the windows with other than original materials. And then finally conformance with city code requirements. The proposed project could be interpreted as balancing the goals, objectives, and policies of the Comprehensive Plan, although not strictly complying with the standards for rehabilitation and Guidelines. And our Design Review Guideline manual. Typically so when 50% or more of the windows are deteriorated or missing, it is permitted in our design guidelines Review manual to do wholesale replacement. And typically we always want to do that with similar or original materials. When possible. And then finally we want we want to make sure that the architectural style is fitting. You know, replacement of a single home with a single home. And then that tinted glass is not permitted. However, if you look at the very bottom, vinyl and vinyl clad windows are only acceptable in mid 20th century properties on non visible elevations and on noncontributing properties. So that's where kind of the disconnect is between the Design Guidelines review manual and the proposed project. And based on that inconsistency staff is recommending denial. However, if the HPB approves the project I'm proposing that we condition approval stating that no tinted glass will be used and that the typical the CA will expire within three years. If there's no building permit. And with that, I can answer any questions you might have. Or do you have any questions? No. No. Well thank you. That's very thorough. Thank you very much. Applicant. Chair, if I may, if I if I may ask the applicant because I just want to get since you are a board member, you're required to disclose on the record. So I want to get this on the record that you're abstaining and why you're abstaining. And then, of course, within 14 days you have to fill out the form with the clerk's office. I am abstaining and she has the form. Okay. So you're you're abstaining because this is your property. Correct. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Sir. Thank you for so. Michelle Ryan, 36 North Spring Boulevard. So I, my husband and I purchased the home in 2016, and it was in bad, bad, bad shape. It was in severe disrepair. We repaired all of the windows Reglazed all the windows. In 2016. We have painted those windows twice since then with really expensive paint. Unfortunately, in our type of climate, wood just does not hold up in what we deal with today. So I'm typically replacing up to three windows a year, and to find a person that actually has the capability and skills to do that, these days is next to impossible. I've been waiting two years for a guy almost two years, about a year and a couple of months. So it's getting harder and harder in houses like ours that we're trying to protect. And trying to make sure that they stand for another 130 years because ours is, like she said, circa 1888. So it's what's 136 year old house that is still solid as can be. And yeah, it's changed a lot. It's been bricked. We have we've changed a lot of the doors out that I've been here so that we're using materials that are going to hold up to our weather and climate. And as you guys know, we just went through hell with three hurricanes in a row. And I honestly don't have the energy to board my house up one more time and I can only reach the bottom. Our house is really tall, so when we have to board up, that means we have to board up from the inside. Upstairs. So when we do that, we're screwing into the wood windows and it's a tough thing to do. So trying to protect the house by when we do the whole house, you have to put impact windows. So when you put an impact window in the glass is a low E glass. There is a slight sheen to it. It's kind of a yellowy looking because it's impact. So that there's no choice as far as like colors that they come in on the glass piece itself. There are different colors of vinyl you can use. So we thought tan would be a nice softening color to go with instead of a white, which would really pop out and not go well with the architecture. But I think that it's a good thing for the house, not to mention my pocketbook. Not off the bat, anyway. This is a $100,000 investment we're making in the house. We did investigate to put in wood windows. The budget on the wood windows was $315,000. So I don't know about you. I can't afford that. It's the finance doesn't make sense financially to put that kind of money into the windows of the house. But I think that the vinyl will look good and we kind of want to pay homage back to what it was. So that's why we went with the Prairie style, which was what was in one of those older photos. But I think that overall, people are not going to see a significant difference in the way it looks. It's still going to look similar, but it's going to migh. And not to mention my electric bill every single month, because I have I have to do it balanced out. So I do the same kind of estimated deal every month. It's over $800 because there's just in a single pane window. There's just there's no energy efficiency whatsoever. So you can literally feel the heat as you're walking through. You can feel the humidity in the house. So it forces us to have to run air conditioning more to protect our furnishings from the humidity. I think that's about all that covers it. If you guys have any specific questions as to the material, I'm sure I can answer them. Or do you have any questions? Jason? Okay, I think you've said it all. Yeah, I think so. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Public comments. Does anybody have public comments? Mr. Chairman, members of the board, Mr. Dickman. Staff. My name is John Trapani. I live at 22 North Spring Boulevard. I'm the neighbor of Mrs. Ryan. Thank you for your time and volunteering. Volunteering for the board? The. I'd like to congratulate the staff on accurately reflecting what the code says. Unfortunately, it doesn't accurately reflect what's happening on the ground right now in preserving and protecting old homes. The materials that are available now to rebuild wood windows, you could rebuild them every six months. And the materials just rot out because the wood is no good that you get, you know, not to mention the storm. So I think we should, you know, thank Ryan's for preserving the home and, and it's true that the code says that, you know, that those materials should be for mid-century houses. But if we want these old houses to remain as long as the look from the street, you know, if you're standing on the street and it looks like it was built in 1888, I think we've accomplished the goal. You know, we've gone from being historical preservationists to historical preservationists at that point. I stay in historic places around the country, and a lot of places the windows have been replaced, but visually they look they look the same and I can tell you from living in a house that was built in 1887, right next door, that the wood, the materials that you get just don't last. So there has to be some compromise to maintaining the integrity of the architectural sensibilities and visual. But at the same time allowing for the protection of the of the property. So and just for the record, I served on the board of the Florida Trust for Historic Preservation for ten years. I was an officer for six and a in the president for two. And I hold the highest award in historic preservation in the state, the Carl Weinert Award. So having said that, I would encourage you to please allow the Ryans to move forward with with their preservation of their home. Thank you. I have a question. Questions? No. No. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Any. Comments? That'll public comments. Okay. We're going to close that and does the staff any have anything else to say? Nothing further. Okay. I'm going to entertain. Can you give me that piece of paper? Yeah. Okay. We need to have a. Wait a minute. I gotta find it. Okay. Motion. Motion. Okay. I move to accept. Miss. Miss Ryan's proposal for that. The 24 Dash 50 project. As presented is presented. And with the staff's recommendation. With the staff recommendation of no tinted glass other than what is read. Well, I guess it's the. They only make it with a little tint to. They only make the glass with you know. But no nothing extra. No dark tint. No. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Sorry. It's impact glass. So it does have a slight, slight yellow kind of tint to it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So the motion would be for no tinting other than what's normal for the impact. Right. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Oh you want me to say all that? There will be the motion is for no tinting. Other than what the impact windows have. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But. Okay. Do I have a second? I'll second. Any discussions? Do two things. One, Mr. Chair, you're exactly right about the windows and the wood and the changes of material. I've seen this a lot where you just cannot find the wood you used to have, and you can't find the people to do the work, you know, so you're going to have to the goal is to protect the house, right? And keep the look at the look as close to it as you can. Okay. Hundred years old, you know, has to have new, you know. Okay. Any more comments? Are we ready for a vote? We have a roll call. Vote, please. Miss Kaplan, yes, Miss Howlett? Yes. Mr. Sprecher? Yes. Thank you very much. Finally. Congratulations. Okay, next on the agenda. Back and forth is. Does she have to do anything? Say anything to be back in the committee? Just let the record reflect that the board member has now come back on to the board. Okay. For the other items on the record for the other two. Okay. Then we're going to go on to application 2461. This is on 155 East Tarpo. This is a porch you want to put on it. So this slide is showing you the location of the subject property at 155 East Tarpon Avenue. Here's its location within the national and local historic districts. And the applicant is seeking a certificate of approval to restore the historical balcony and transom windows at the circa 1905 contributing structure. The subject property is a two part masonry vernacular commercial building that's known as the W.H. Gourley Building. Notable remaining architectural features include the rusticated and smooth concrete block exterior, large plate glass storefront display, windows on the first floor, and three recessed entrances. Some interesting notes about this property. It was constructed for W.H. Gourley. An original originally housed a tailor pressing shop and grocery store on the first floor, with apartments on the second floor. Subsequently, the building included a dry goods store, menswear shop, hardware store, and the second floor continued use as residential space. This is what the subject property looks like in the Florida master site. File. Currently. This is the. It shows it on the 1909 Sanborn. And as you can see here, this yellow indicates a wooden balcony that was there. Here it is on on the 1913 Sanborn and again on the 1919 Sanborn. This is a historical photo. I was able to pull up it. If you can see the balcony was supported by rusticated block. But you can see there was a wood balcony with some looks like iron railing and a shed roof. There. And this is another historical photo from looks like about the 1980s, showing how that has been all stripped away. And this is what the facade currently looks like. There's some street views and context of where we're talking about in our downtown, kind of the heart of our downtown district. And this is the renderings for the proposed project. Note that the A. The balcony would be replaced. The transom windows above the storefronts would be restored. And it has a very similar look to that historic photo. It may not be using the rusticated block for supports. But the kind of simple style that they're proposing is absolutely in keeping with the architectural design of the property. And this is just kind of showing the above view plan how they're planning around the tree. So we don't have to worry about our tree. And then all of these standards of review really apply new construction consistency. You know, while this would be new construction, it's restoring a significant architectural feature of the historic propert. The windows, doors and entries would not be changed, would actually be kind of restoring that that doorway to a doorway. Use again up on the second floor. There. The neighborhood and district context. We definitely would fit in as we see next door. It has a very similar balcony right next door. The roof shape and texture is not going to be changing the main structure's roof, but there is a proposed shed roof with the proposed new balcony, which would replicate what was historically there. It would actually restore the size, massing and shape of the historic structure and bring back some of the original architectural features that are consistent with its original period of construction. Would generally conform with the Secretary's guidelines and would conform with all of the City Code and Comprehensive Plan. So, you know, we're we're one of the main points is that this was a, a deteriorated, historic feature of the building that was removed. And now we're going to have an opportunity to replace that. So staff is recommending approval with the following conditions. That the balcony and transom restoration will be constructed as illustrated in the application. Any deviation from those plans will require consultation with city staff prior to construction, and may consider may require additional approvals from this board. There was no specific product information for the building materials. In the application. I would request if the board feels comfortable that those be reviewed by city staff as they go through the building permit process. Alternatively, the board could specify specific materials that they would like to see used. And then again that the certificate of approval would expire in three years. And with that, I can answer any questions. Any questions? No. N. Okay. Do we have the applicant here? Bringing forward even though you've seen it? I paid for it, and I love it. And I show it to everybody. So I'm going to bring it up here for you to. I'm Christy Howard and I live at 915 Bay Shore Drive, and I am the LLC of balance directions that purchased the building at 155 East Tarpon Avenue. And it does house my business. And some other future businesses coming the healing hedge, which is mine. And I want to have the opportunity to buy the building. I just really felt strongly that I wanted to be the owner operator in that building. You know, I think there's a little difference than just having tenants when you I live there, my business lives there, and I've always admired two frogs and how they've had their balcony and upon a little digging, I found out that my building used to have that same balcony and I'm eager, but not in a hurry to do it. You know, it's going to take some planning, so I need the three years to get the permits issued. But I am happy to work with the city and the board to decide what materials to use. I want to get it back to as much original as possible, and in keeping with two frogs next door, like I just, you know, so that it really looks good. I think it'll look nice on the street to have that done. So eager to make it kind of match and fit. How it was. And I was excited to see that photo from that showed the brick, I guess, pilings. I hadn't seen that one until I think Caroline found it. You know, if we can use the post, I don't know if that's even feasible. But again, just want to do the best we can to get it as close to what it was. Okay, great. Thank you. Any questions? Do you have any like ideas in your head? What kind of materials? Like the roof. It looks like it's a standing seam. Metal roof. Is that kind of your visual? The. Yes, I mean, I honestly, I'm going to take leadership. John and Cindy Terrebonne because they've been through a lot of this and I I'm lucky enough to have some guidance from their, you know, depth of experience there. Mr. Trapani was a part of the two frogs restoration. You know, I want it to look like it did before. And then also, in keeping with that structure as well, and just whatever kind of fits and whatever materials are suggested. Mr. Hoffman, who did the drawings, I know he's been involved in a lot of preservation, so I just feel like if I take the input from all of the folks that know these things and get it together with the, you know, the drawings looks fantastic. I was yeah. And then so and I don't know if you know the answer to this. The transoms are those there today. Are they just covered up. They're just covered up. And I can't wait to peel it back and see if there's glass under there. I know when they did that at Two Frogs, they found out that the glass was still there. It may not be there. And so then we'll kind of cross that when we get there. But you know, now this, that the it's just blocked off. And then there's that awning that kind of hangs low. I don't know when that was installed, but you know, it kind of comes down pretty low. And I feel like this will just really lift up the building. Now there will be a notch for that tree. I think my there's a side view that shows where that tree is growing. It will have to kind of be notched out to make room for that. But we, you know, we can't let go of any trees. So we're just going to kind of work around it. Will the deck be a solid material. So like if you're walking under it, it gives you some shelter from rain? Yes. It will just basically replace the awning. No need for the awning. It'll act as that. That's how I'm envisioning it. Actually, a young lady who works for me lives upstairs above two frogs. And so I've been able to go up there and kind of see how it even looks. And it's just so it's just a nice way to kind of view the Tarpon Avenue. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. You're welcome. Thank you. Okay. Any more questions? Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. That was very good. Okay. I think it's do we have any public comments? It seems like it's my night. It's Tarpon Avenue. John Tarpon, 22 North Spring Boulevard. As Miss Howard mentioned, my family does own the building next door. The two frogs building. And just to give you a little history of the street, when we first bought the building years ago, the we tried to put the balcony back and we couldn't do it because the state of Florida had Tarpon Avenue and then many years we did restore the building and used canvas awnings and things like that. And there was this door upstairs that, you know, went to nowhere. Then later at the time, mayor DiDonato started the process of taking the street back from the state. And so it would be a local street. And when that happened, we went back to the city and got a certificate of appropriateness and put the deck, the balcony out with a shed roof over the balcony. And Miss Ryan, that's what keeps the rain from going down. It is a I'm pretty sure it's like a two by 6 or 2 by eight, but it has seams. But the shed roof above the balcony keeps the rain from wetting the pedestrians. But we're very excited to have, you know, people invest in downtown and put capital back into the town. And so we're really excited about Mrs. Howard's proposal. And I know it has the staff recommendation of approval, but we just wanted to lend our support and any kind of background that we can give. Miss Howard, we will thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. That's everything. Hang on one second. Okay. Any more public comments? Hearing none. Any closing remarks from the staff? No, no. Okay, I'm going to bring it back to the. There you go. Okay. Okay. Do I hear a motion? Okay, I'll try again. I move. Make a motion for project title 24 Dash 61 to be accepted as read with any staff recommendations approved. And, yeah, I guess. It is that. As recommended by the staff. So the I believe the motion was that you were making that you were recommending approval of the application. Right. With with any conditions or recommendations from the staff. Right. Right. Okay. Second. I'll. Second. Second. Okay. There you go. Any discussions? No. That was very good. Thank you. Let's go on to a vote, then. Yes. Okay. Kaplan. Yes, miss. Howard? Yes. Miss Ryan? Yes. Mr. Sprecher? Yes. Congratulations. Fabulous. It's going to look good. It'll look fabulous. Okay. Now we'll go on to the last one here. Excuse me. One second. Okay, we're going to do application 2471. This is for Mercer Building. It's 106 Mears. Yeah. 106 East Tarpon. This is for some replacement of windows. Staff can run through it again. So this is the location. And context of the subject property also on East Tarpon Avenue. Its location within the national and local historic district zoning context. It is in our special area plan. And the applicant is seeking a certificate of approval to replace non-original aluminum windows with vinyl, one over one single hung windows at the contributing structure at the subject property. The subject property was constructed in 1914 for Ernest Mears, who was a successful sponge trader and an insurance agent. The building contained the Royal Theater, which, as a fun side note, once once hosted Will Rogers, the Tarpon Springs Post Office, and Western Union. The Hotel Mears was located on the second floor and in this second floor. I don't know if you've ever noticed it from an aerial. It utilizes an H pattern to maximize lighting into those rooms, so it's a really neat design because it's one of our our few architect designed structures. The architect M Leo Elliott, who was a leading architect in Florida and the fifth licensed architect in the state. So this shows the picture from the Florida master site file. The location of the building on the 1919. Sanborn. Here you can see that H construction there. Here's some historical photos of the building life over time. This is how the structure appears today. A little bit of context. In the surrounding area. And these are the photos submitted of by the applicant of all the windows that are proposed for being replaced. I will note that the windows proposed for replacement are all on the second floor. None. None of the first floor. Just the second floor is what's being proposed to be replaced. You can see some of the damage here that they're dealing with. Also, this is the proposed project. All of those numbers there indicate a window that they're proposing for replacement. And it's the product sheet for the windows. They're proposing to use. So we have a few standards for review that are relevant to the project. Obviously windows, doors and entries. The historic dimensions of the windows will be retained. So they're not changing the opening size of the windows or anything like that. Again, these are already these are non-original windows. They're aluminum frames. They've already been replaced. But as you look back at those historic pictures, they have always been one over one, I believe, of the original construction was double hung, but still it's going to give that historical appearance from the street. It you know, windows again are always an important architectural feature. And we need to you need to look at the Secretary's guidelines. So the most appropriate thing to do would be to replace them all with original materials, which would be wood windows. However, you know, these are already replacement windows are already aluminum. And again, we do have the issue of the design review guideline manual, which states that vinyl and vinyl clad windows are only appropriate on mid 20th century properties, on non visible elevations and on noncontributing properties. So due to that inconsistency, staff is recommending denial. However, you could again say that this project is balancing the goals, objectives and policies of the Comprehensive Plan and our design Review guidelines. Because it's ensuring the continued existence of the structure, although not strictly complying with our review guidelines. So if the HPB decides to approve the project, I'm recommending that we condition approval with tentative and or reflective glass. That's a no no. Don't use that. Just to clarify that the masonry sills outside of the windows will be preserved, and that nothing will be done to harm them. And then again, that the certificate of approval will expire in three years. If you have any questions, I can answer them now. Is there something unique about the masonry sills? Right. I think they're pretty typical. You can see. Okay. You just see here, you know, they're just kind of a neat architectural feature of the relief. You know, it's an original architectural feature. And we just want to make sure that we clarify that where those are present. Those were not going to be damaged or removed. In the window replacement. Carolyn, are the that's a wood that looks like it's been built out around it. And that particular one that they're showing right. I mean, is that because of the old window was a different size? The applicant can maybe better answer that question. But yeah, I'm guessing these were just kind of shoved in there to try and replace the old windows, you know, with them replacing all of them are is the code not to have impact. No. That doesn't apply to historic structures. Okay. Okay. Any more questions? Thank you very much, Carolyn. You're welcome. Okay. Do we have the applicant here? Okay. Good evening. My name is Bill Lorenzo. 7021 North Clark Avenue. Bear with me. I'm getting over food poisoning. So the windows that are in there now, the aluminum ones. The opening is already shrunk down some because when the wood windows were taken out, they just used the framing from the old wood windows and they stuck them in there. The problem with this is that everything around those windows is completely rotted away. They all leak. Tenants downstairs are getting flooded out. The ones that are renting upstairs are getting flooded out. The windows will have to be pulled out. All that wood is going to have to come out. We're going to have to reframe everything. Put the new windows in on the outside. They will have to re stucco to returns back in to make it look exactly what was there. And what's. Like I said it's just there's 66 windows in this building. And if you, if you were to actually take one of these windows out and look, because it's been leaking for so long, that brick structure is deteriorating. So literally when I'm putting these two by eights or two by twelves that are going to be on the inside reinforcing everything, they're actually holding part of that brick building up because it's just not there. It's falling apart. So this is really something that really needs to be done. Because that building is going to end up being non usable if we if it doesn't start to be brought up to code. So do you have any questions. Okay. Any questions. Yeah. Are you going to be able to save all the sills. The sills have they're already down. There's actually we just had the roof redone on the, on the building and the sills. None of them are going to be messed with. So you have on those interior windows, they all have a small still on them. The exterior, the biggest issue is the front windows because the side windows, they just slapped them in there. The front windows they actually framed out, if you can see they framed the top. It was Beau Top originally. They framed it out. So square windows are in there and at the top that little bow that's on the top is actually framed down and then painted black to match the whole building. So what we're going to do is put the same flat window, square window in there. And we're going to frame that arch a little section down, and then we'll stucco to it to make it look more to the original. Okay. Sounds good. Any more questions. Thought to the color? I mean, I love your building. I love the paint color you guys picked. I almost wish you would have went with a different color than white on the windows. Architecturally. It would have really kind of looked good. Well, to stay within the budget that he wants to use, we were with the white because the white was already there. But if we go with the color, those windows are going to double in price. Double. But I get you. Yeah, it's already just to be perfectly honest with you, I proposed this to him. I'm his contractor and he was already on the fence on it because he's got so much money. He's been dumping into this. The roof was super expensive, and they've had to go back 3 or 4 times because the actual structure below it, they've repaired as much as they could, but it's still leaking. So we've had the roofer back 3 or 4 times to try to get it taken care of because the one tenant, the largest tenant down there, she's been flooded out several times and has lost this last storm. She lost 6000 in that that store alone. So okay, any more. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. Do we have any public comments? Hearing none. Continue on. We're staff. Do you have any closing? I just wanted to mention that I looked quickly at the product sheet and they are proposing impact windows. Yes. So just for clarification. Okay. Okay. But not hearing anything else. So we'll bring it back to committee. Do I hear a. Motion. Do you want to make a motion? No. What's the number on it? 24. 71? Sure. If I could just clarify something. So the same condition on the impact windows. Is that the only tinting would be what comes from the manufacturer, correct? Would probably say there's no intentional tinting. So, yeah. Okay, I'll make a motion. So application 2471 to accept staff's recommendations with the exception of the impact class being standard as far as the way it comes from the factory. Okay. I'll second. Second. Okay. Any more discussions on this? Okay. We have a what a product. Miss Kaplan. Yes, Miss Howlett. Yes. Miss Ryan? Yes. Mr. Sprecher. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you very much. What a project. Thank you for your time. Okay. That's the last one. So. Do you have any comments? Would you have a discussion item for you that my colleague Pat McNeice is going to be discussing? Oh, hang on a second. Yeah, I missed that. Okay. Okay. Please go ahead. Okay. We're going to have to do that. Hang on one second. I do have the item. Okay. I do have extra copies of the draft ordinance. Does anyone need one? Okay. Now. And the. Are you going to give a presentation on this? Now these are changes and ordinances. Yes. Pat McNeice, planning supervisor. It's nice to be here. Yes. We are bringing forth an ordinance that is an a change to your article seven that you normally operate under the heritage Preservation section of the code. And the main thrust of this is to provide for what's called a neighborhood conservation overlay mechanism. So the planning and zoning department in the city has been working on some different community planning projects and studies. In the last year or two, some of which you, you guys are aware of. You've been involved with those such as the Greek Town and sponge docks area. We have some studies and initiatives going on at the Union Academy area. So one thing that came out of these studies, which identified they identified planning issues, neighborhood issues, development, new and existing development infrastructure, economic, all those kinds of things. But one of the things that came out of the development aspect was a desire to maintain a certain character or certain features of some of these areas. So to do that, the idea was to come back with a neighborhood conservation overlay mechanism, which is a mechanism that allows flexibility. It's not as stringent or detailed as the traditional historic ordinance and guidelines that you all work under. It's designed to provide the area or the citizens to address those issues. They specifically want to address with some flexibility. So basically, the ordinance this is article seven. And you'll see on the first page in 106.01. And unfortunately these don't all have page numbers. So I apologize for that. But section 106.01 where you see that first change kind of explains the intent of the historic district as opposed to the neighborhood conservation overlay and what those are going to be intending to address. And then if you flip over, mainly. To section 108, that was that's the section where you already had designation of historic districts and landmarks. That's the procedure for those. What we've done is add in an update of this to include that procedure modified to adopt a neighborhood conservation overlay district. So we've set out the procedures and processes here for that. And then the other main section having to do with NCOs is back in this new section 118, where it establishes the purpose of a neighborhood conservation overlay district. And I'll just read that real quick. It's intended to help preserve significant historical, cultural or architectural architectural assets from demolition, encourage adaptive reuse of existing structures, and promote consistent development patterns. So that's the overall purpose. The idea is really with this ordinance tonight is to kind of lay the groundwork and the framework for and a procedure for going ahead and establishing NCOs where we want to could be once, once established that it becomes more detailed, it may b, you know, could establish its own board. There's lots of ways it could go. But right now what we've got in here is just the basics. You'll see in that news section 118. We've only included addressing the very basic issues of new structures, additions and demolition of structures. So those would be items that if we do establish an NCO, we would say, well, in this NCO we want to regulate all those or we only want to regulate demolition. You would make a decision based on what the citizen's desire is and what the character of the district is to decide where that NCO starts. Essentially. So that's what this this section does. And then the process is really right now we haven't established a new process other than using your established procedures. You as a board to review these items and the new NCOs. And that's kind of where we decided it'd be a good idea to start out, get this mechanism going, get it in place and see, see where it goes and how we can use it. The ordinance also has some tweaks and some corrections to your existing ordinance. We went back to the old certificate of appropriate appropriateness term, which is really more appropriate. That's what everybody else is. The state uses, you know, things like that. I'm not sure why we switched to approval, but so there are some changes in here that that kind of clean up the ordinance. Archeological is another section that was cleaned up to reflect what is actually done in practice by staff. So there are some clean up items and what we're recommending tonight is, is that you take a look at this, discuss it amongst yourselves and make a recommendation to the board as to whether you think it should go forward. If there's any changes or concerns or any issues you'd like to address. This is not an official public hearing. It's, you know, it was on your agenda as a discussion item because you do not you know, you're not a an official public hearing for the ordinance purpose, but we would recommend that you take public comment from those that that want to comment on the ordinance this evening and give us a your thoughts and a recommendation for the board of Commissioners. Thank you. Okay. I'll be glad to answer any questions. Well, kind of catch me a little flat footed on this one. I'm sorry. Really need to go over that a little bit more. Okay. Now, you had wa. I didn't catch this in the package. I'm sorry. This was in the package. All the. I've got extra copies. Yeah, yeah, but I'd like some time to look at it. Tell you the truth. Okay. Do we have anybody that. Let's just do this. Do you have anybody set up to give a public comment on this? Okay, well, let's go through the public comment now. Do we approve this or this? Not so. It's part of your land development code. So your planning and zoning board acting as the local planning agency, will have to review this before it goes to the Board of commissioners. It will be an ordinance form. So then you'll have two hearings at the Board of commissioners. But you all being a this is your wheelhouse. It's affecting the area of the code that you all deal with the most. And I believe what staff is doing is, is asking for your feedback on this. And in addition, adding another layer of public public discourse by having it on the agenda here to get a little more input. If there is. But if I don't know what kind of timeline you all are on, it sounds to me like the board members desire more time to review some of this another month. It is in the packet. I did read it. It's all in strikethrough, underline and things. Catch that one up I apologize the do we have any more discussions on this? Yes. And this has been advertised for the November 18th Planning and Zoning and the December BoCC meetings. It could be deferred. I will say, I believe your December meeting maybe fairly well. I'm not sure. So I mean, we could bring it back for the December HPB. You've got, I think, a couple applications at least, maybe a busy agenda, but okay, if that's something you would like to do. Is that agreeable with you guys? Okay, people, a few. I'm still kind of looking through it. Okay. I jus. Mean, how how different is this compared to. I mean, what we normally are as rules and how we evaluate cases. How different is this than what we typically do? I know it's yeah, it's very different. So this would be this is just a very basic level. And some of the things that came out in the. Public process, especially for the Greek town and sponge docks area, is that we may be losing some structure. I guess. I mean, there's a couple of things the gentrification issue and the, for lack of a better term, the kind of McMansion or inappropriate massing and scale that was kind of the first level that may be going on when some of these older structures are demolished in favor of the newer structures. Now, some of that is we have non flood compliant structures and people trying to raise them up. So but that can be dealt with. I feel like that can be dealt with in at some level as a design issue. But this ordinance tonight really lays the groundwork for that first basic level of kind of scale and massing and losing structures in a neighborhood that we don't we're not sure we want to want to go there yet. Yeah, I think you there's a need for that because there are some different things going on in that area to where some of the structures don't go with the neighborhood. Yeah, but we haven't I mean, we haven't included yet the level of windows, doors, you know. All those architectural features that that you guys deal with every day, at least not in this iteration. So. Okay. There was a public comment, right? Yeah. Let's have the public comment. Tina Bucuvalas 115 Athens Street and to introduce myself a little, I'm on the Pinellas County Historic Preservation Commission, as well as the Pinellas County Historical Commission, and I'm president of the Greek Town Preservation and Heritage Association. And I certainly agree with everything that Pat has said about the need for the neighborhood conservation ordinance. And mechanism. In fact, I think I'm the person that originally brought this to everyone's attention about neighborhood conservation districts. That being said, I think it's a great document that you have before you these changes to the ordinance. But like every document, I think there can be some tweaks that make it more effective and plug some of the holes that could be used. So if you bear with me, I'm just going to go over. I have a few of these and I'm just going to do it by number because I don't want to get too wordy here. So first of all, 106.01 A talks about historic districts in previous drafts of this ordinance, it had not only a definition of historic districts that were locally designated, but also a number two was about non locally designated historic districts. This was taken out, but I think it's important to put in because for more than a decade there has been a non locally designated national Register district which is the Greek Town Historic district, which is the official name for the National Register, and the state of the district that goes from the Sponge docks to Tarpon Avenue from Pinellas down to Roosevelt. So. But and in nowhere else. Although you have such a non locally designated historic district in the city, in no other place that I know of does the city ever acknowledge that reality. And it just seems like there should be some language about it, since it exists 106.01 B Neighborhood Conservation Overlay Districts number three. It talks about ensuring that new construction is consistent with the established identity of the district. In an earlier draft, I think, and here I would like to restore some wording, ensure that new construction and exterior building renovations are consistent with the identity of the district, and the reason this is so important an exterior building renovations are important is I have seen some egregious examples of things gone wrong. Whole cities gone wrong when this isn't followed with consistency with the historic architectural tradition. For instance, I visited Santa Fe, New Mexico not not long ago. Lovely city, but I was appalled to understand that the hotel I was staying in had started out as a wooden Victorian mansion, had been stuccoed over to look like a pueblo building. And then I found out that had nothing to do with architecture in the city. All of that stuff had been done in the city, was not part of their architectural tradition, but just sort of an accretion and was not authentic. You know, here our traditional architectural buildings are Florida vernacular. We have no Greek building tradition. Other than Saint Nicholas, which is a very modified American version of Byzantine architecture. And the sponge boats. But putting Greek architecture here is the same as putting Pueblo architecture in Santa Fe. So I so I think there's a room to include a little bit more there. 100 and 8C2 talks about how petitions can be submitted for districts. And it says 51% of the land area, as indicated by a vote of property owners for district designation by the BOC or the City Planning and Zoning department. I would also like to include a nonprofit civic organization, as was included in an earlier draft. And here's the reasons why. For also about the 51% of the land area, the 51% of the land area clause assumes 100% participation by property owners. And to understand realistic rates of participation in any civic thing, it's good to look at voting records and how people actually vote. According to county data in Tarpons March 2023 municipal election, only 14.4% of the electorate voted in 1120 for the presidential election. Only 78.1% voted so, and that's the highest general participation in anything you vote for. It's a general rule. So it's absurd to base an ordinance on an overtly false assumption of 100% participation, which is, what, 51% would be basing it on 100% participation. Instead, there are alternatives that are frequently used, such as notifying property owners by mail, by newspaper, by other public announcements, and after notifications. Every board might hold hearings. Now, the other issue the city has implied that inclusion of nonprofit organizations as petitioners are appropriate in their comp plan section. In his 1.3.2, in which they in which it says, quote, encourage the development of community driven plans for historic districts to guide future preservation and complementary development. So I would suggest that since the city already suggests that nonprofits be involved in this, that you put that in this section as well, or restore it to the section 108 point D six also talks about support from at least 51% of affected property owners for a district to designation, and has that ever and that again, that assumes 100% participation. I don't think that's ever happened anywhere. But including other entities could counteract this problem. If you reverted to the earlier draft, it mentioned that it specifies that quote, unless waived for district designation, that the 51% would apply unless waived by the BOC, or if the nomination is submitted by the BOC. PNC Department, or a nonprofit city civic organization. Section 118.00, where it talks about the purpose and currently it says, to preserve historical, cultural or architectural assets from demolition. Encourage adaptive reuse of existing structures, promote consistent development patterns, promote consistent oh, okay, all that is great, but it doesn't effectively protect district heritage and integrity if it specifies only demolition and does not deal with alterations to existing structures. As we have seen when I've given previous examples. So I would change that that sentence to say preserve assets from demolition, encourage adaptive reuse of existing structures, ensure that new construction and exterior building renovations are consistent with the district's integrity, and established identity, and so on. And finally, you know, just in 118.03 when it talks about certificates of appropriateness, I would add a category to construction activity, which would be alterations to existing structure and then give out those specific items, as it did for historic districts. Are there any questions? Well, there's a mess up. Okay. Do you have all this written down? Yes. Okay. To where you could give us a copy of it. Oh yes. Okay. I'd like to study this. Really? Sure. I'd be happy to send it to you. I couldn't find a mechanism in which I could send directly to the board, so I didn't. We can certainly post it with the next. Okay. If this is going to be continued, I'll take it and we'll provide it to the board in their packet. All right. Thank you Pat. Thank you. So Pat, did you go over those recommendations. Have you already considered these? I mean, we did as Tina mentioned, some of that was in earlier drafts. This went through two discussions with the with the planning and Zoning Board and a discussion with the Board of Commissioners. The ordinance has been around for a while. It was initiated in 2022. So that shows you and based on some of the kind of direction we got, we did modify it a bit. And in overall I would just say, you know, none of those things are are completely objectionable. Overall, we're trying to establish the process. In fact, the last level Tina mentioned, maybe that does go into one of the NCOs, if that's what they want to do to require the identity to be defined, the integrity, what renovations. Now you're getting into what you all normally do. The idea was to we can't do anything without setting this process up. The idea is to set the process up now with the very basic concerns that were expressed, and then work from there with each individual district. Union Academy is a good example of a neighborhood where, you know, it might be something addressing assembly of lots, some, you know, some of the gentrification issues that may arise in a neighborhood that, let's face it, is not in a flood zone now. It's become more and more attractive to buy properties. I'm not saying it's happening yet, but but we can see things like that may be on the horizon. Buy properties, bulldoze something and build something else. So every neighborhood is going to be different. So that's kind of what we were looking for, was to get this adopted as a starting point. And that's kind of the direction we've we've received. But but let me just say, if you don't put things like, like external structure renovations in here, then it's not open for my understanding for, for future consideration. It doesn't have to be. But but it probably that wording probably does need to be in here. So okay okay okay I'd like to let's postpone this and we'll talk about it next meeting okay. Can I just ask a quick question Patricia. Like how as far as like timing. I mean, is this going to be a big problem if this goes off? Because there might be another way that board members can provide you with. That's feedback. Yeah, that's kind of what I was wondering if that might happen. I mean, this yeah, we did pretty much have this on track for to try to get it through in December. So this would shift everything to sometime in January. So in the alternative what you could do is board members individually don't copy each other or whatever, but go and take what you've heard here, review, review that and you can send Patricia directly your own comments on it. And that could be included in a presentation at the Planning and Zoning Board. Yeah. Okay. Is that is that because that's just a way to just keep it on track? Okay. I've got no problem with that. And when was the planning. Is that the. That's November 18th. 18th is well that's the meeting. But yeah the deadline I would say November since Monday is a holiday about a week from tomorrow. But November 12th if you could give us some feedback. Okay. And I'll send you all an email to remind. Remind you. Yeah. And we will Tina will send me your comments so we can get those to you. So you can be reminded. And I guess we have more public comment. Good evening. I'm Cindy Tarpani, live at 22 North Spring Boulevard. First on this issue of y'all's review, I would call to your attention and to the attorney and Pat and Caroline, section 228 of the city's Land Development code, land development code has the powers and duties of the Historic Preservation Board, and under f five, it says to recommend to the Board of Commissioners amendments to this code, meaning this that land development code that you're talking about, the building codes and the comprehensive plan for the city of Tarpon Springs. So I think you have a requirement in your code to hold a public hearing, because this was not this is a public meeting. I don't believe this was an advertised public hearing on this item. Hold a public hearing, take public comment as you wish, and make a recommendation. So I would suggest you that you really need to do that. And I would give you a couple things to think about. And I can also give my comments in in writing just a couple of big concepts as you look at thi. Hopefully you will continue it for a month so you can have an advertised public hearing like the code requires. First of all, back in April this went to the Planning and Zoning Board, and I spoke then and I said, you really need to separate out. It could be in the same article, but you need to have the historic preservation portion over here. The historic districts and landmarks. You need to have the neighborhood conservation overlay over here, separate two separate sections of that overall article of the code. Some might be similar. For example, they're both going to be reviewed by you and then forwarded on with your recommendation to the board of county to the city commission. However, the way it's written right now, those two things are merged in there and there. There's really you can't it's very unclear as to how the A the process works, and b what the standards of review are. For example, if you look at the standards of review for a district, it's all related to historic properties. You might have some neighborhoods that they're just protecting certain aspects of their neighborhood that are not necessarily historic. So I think you've got you really need to separate those two things out. And it's not hasn't been done. Secondly, this is a big issue for me is I don't think you need any owner consent. And that's what's shown in here as 51%, both for a historic district, which we already have. All the properties that you've been dealing with in your agenda today were in the historic district. That was never a requirement in the historic district when it was started, and I don't think it should be for any future historic districts or for neighborhood conservation district. If you do that, you're taking away the power of the Board of Commissioners to determine what is in the best interest of the city. And sometimes you're going to have some people come out. As Miss Bucuvalas mentioned, getting people to participate in a mail in ballot is number one, difficult as we know. But number two, and I've seen this in other cities where I have worked in preservation, that having a ballot for someone to vote, that they yes, they want to be in this historic district or neighborhood conservation fraught with problems. What if someone owns a property? It happens to have? It's one house, but it's on four lots, and those four lots are four different parcels in the county. On the property. Appraiser does that person get four votes? Probably not. But if they have four lots or in four different places in the neighborhood, do they get four votes? Probably yes. And although none of that is spelled out in here, it's just fraught with problems to have a voting. And I just think it's inappropriate. I trust you all as a preservation board. I trust the Commission as a board to make the best decision. Considering all the evidence I would take all the references out to a percentage. The other big comment I'd ask you to take a look at, and this is mostly in the definition section. There's references to cultural practices, and I understand that a cultural district may have cultural practices. However, you cannot you cannot regulate something that is intangible. You cannot regulate something that you cannot see or touch. You regulate buildings. You regulate districts. You regulate landscapes. You regulate archeological sites. But you don't regulate the fact that people have Greek dancing on Sundays. On certain days, you cannot just cannot regulate that. So that that whole issue needs to be be addressed. I mean, this is not related to the neighborhood conservation district, but I noticed it and I think if we're cleaning this up, we ought to go ahead and fix it. Now, currently when you a case comes before you, the notice goes to everyone within 500ft. For some reason. And this has been in the code for a while. But like I said, let's fix it now. If someone appeals your decision to the board of city commissioners that notice is only 200ft. Why? Why wouldn't the same people who were affected when you all made your decision and considered it get the same notice? So I would just suggest that that get changed. That's section 111 point D. And then the last thing I would suggest for the staff to think about and for you to think about is that and I happen to work for the city. I was fortunate to work for the city of Tampa when we adopted the first historic preservation ordinance, and we adopted the first district, which ironically, you may if you know, Tampa was Hyde Park. And so that and that was done in the mid 80s. What we put into that ordinance. And there were other historic districts that came later, Seminole Heights and others. But what we put in the ordinance as a requirement is that as each district was being considered, whatever geographic new district was being considered, that the design guidelines for that district be be in draft form prior to the district being adopted. And what that does, is it tells people with some clarity what you're going to regulate. And I think this would be critical in a neighborhood conservation overlay, because each one is going to be different. It's not like a historic district where you have the same design guidelines for all the whole historic district that we have today, you're going to have totally different regulations in each area to reflect that particular neighborhood. So you need to tell people, what are we going to regulate as Miss Boukouvalas said, are you going to regulate exteriors? Are you only going to regulate demolition? Are you only going to regulate front porches? Are you only going to regulate drive? I mean, you can see where this is going. You need to tell people and that obviously that would be developed with the particular neighborhood as to what they wanted to regulate in their community and how detailed they wanted it to be. So this is just some thoughts for you all to think of as you review it. I would recommend that you do continue it. It's like Pat said, it's been around for a couple of years. I don't know that it's, you know, you know, there's some huge necessity to do it this month. And I think you have an obligation, a requirement to actually hold a hearing and make a recommendation on it to the board. You are the subject matter expert. This is your as the Mr. Dickman said, this is your wheelhouse. So I would recommend that you continue it. That'll give you all a chance to review it. Again. Think about the comments that were made today and then, and you may have other comments at the next meeting. And I thank you very much for your time, Mr. Chair, if I could. Patricia, please. There's been a there's been a, a comment that this is not this is an improper hearing essentially. I agree that the board is part of their powers is to make recommendations. Was this properly advertised? This was advertised in the newspaper. This this meeting. I was going to try to find that section of code, but I don't have any internet. Do I have it right? But I don't know that we understand it. To mean that this would be one of the official public hearings of an ordinance. Well, it certainly it certainly legislation. Let me just get to the point. It does say part of the powers among all the powers to recommend to the board of Commissioners amendments to this code, which is including land development codes, building codes and the comprehensive plan in Tarpon Springs. But I just want to for the record, make sure that this was advertised. The it's been on the agenda. Ye, it's listed as a discussion item, but it's not because it's not a quasi judicial item. It's a legislation that's being proposed. So it's clearly I'm not pushing an agenda whatsoever. I was just simply asking whether there was a timeline that this need to be met. And there was a there was a comment made that perhaps this is procedurally not properly before you. And I'm going to opine that it is, but you can you can vote to continue it if you like. Well, it's no problem. I've got with it right now is none of us are prepared for thi. I'd like to take a look at the ordinance that we're talking about, because this is this part of the. Ordinances on on. What's that book there? Yes. Was on the agenda? So this is not part of the historic district design review manual? No, no, it's not something different. It's the it's the land development Code article that you all use. It sounds to me like like you are. It sounds to me like you are not comfortable with with making a decision or just providing individual comments. If you are not comfortable, let's go ahead. And I think staff would be fine with deferring it to the next meeting. Is fine with it. Make sure they get copies of everything so that they can read it and be prepared. Yeah, I'd like to I'd like to read it. I got my interest up. All right. Okay. And if you could maybe on the agenda, perhaps say discussion item with possible action, okay. So that they can take a vote. So there's no question that that so that there's no argument that this hasn't been properly before. You as has been alleged all right. Okay. And we have more public comment. I think I think I have maybe a solution. Can I go. No. Georgiana Francis, 15 Athens Street, also a member of the Planning and Zoning board, but I'm not speaking on behalf of the planning and Zoning Board. What I did want to point out was some of the we have discussed this, I think at least probably three times. I think the PNC board, as a discussion item, so that maybe if in the next item that you notice for the HPB board, if you could maybe clarify those meetings that we had and then it would really benefit you all to actually look at those meetings and maybe even just the portion where we discuss it. So we're not some of the stuff, the issues that were raised today have already been addressed. So if you put those things back in, we'll have to like readdress them because we've already taken them out. So it would be like almost a second or third time that, you know, and it's just not really productive to do that. So and the other thing I wanted to mention, which we have workshops coming up, I don't think that there is a big rush right now. I don't see why that would be a big issue. But we have workshops coming up for each of these and maybe, Pat, we could put HPB with a joint workshop. I can look into that. That way, like maybe a little bit towards the end. So you know, and I think as we discussed, maybe not even having it like here, maybe a little bit in a different area where it's a little bit more social, where people might come like from the sponge docks and, and I really take issue with the whole I do agree with everything that Mr. Penny said. She's an expert on this as Mr. Terrapin is as far as you know, we don't need the percentages because that's obviously not how the historical district downtown was put in. But but as far as like the 100% and people not voting, believe me, the people that you know, the sponge docks definitely do care. I personally walk to the new city manager down there two weekends ago. And so this is a really important issue for everybody in town right now because they're rebuilding. So believe me, people will be participating and there's any fear of that. Just I mean, everybody who's been out voting recently probably record numbers. So I just think that, you know, moving forward, we have a new city manager. I think it'd be really good to start kind of working together with the planning and Zoning Board because a lot of what we do, we see the same thing. So, you know, you don't have to watch those meetings, but it would really help, you know, to watch certain aspects. And I think Pat can put that in the agenda. And then like I said, maybe just have one of those workshops at the same time so we can all, you know, look at those issues together. Okay. All right. Thank you. Yeah, I can certainly I'll give you the history of all the discussions by planning and zoning Board and the Board of Commissioners. So you can look at those items and they're way more in depth than the planning and zoning than the board of commissioners. Okay, okay. Cindy Trapani, 22, North Spring. I did not allege that the hearing was improper. What I said was you have an obligation and a responsibility to make a recommendation. When y'all were talking, just before I got up here about Pat said, well, maybe everyone could send your comments to her and she could relay those to the planning and Zoning Board and the commission. That is not a recommendation of the board. So what I'm suggesting is that if you're not going to vote tonight on it and you're going to continue it, then when you continue it, you make your recommendation, you'll be fulfilling that requirement in the code. I'm not saying anything is improper tonight. Yes you did. You just said it. That you're not taking a vote. That's what you're saying. Well, it's pretty clear in the code that they're required to. It doesn't say no, it doesn't say vote. It says make recommendations. Well, how do they make recommendations except by a motion. And the motion either passes or fails. That's how they make recommendations. You can't that's not the only way the board does it. What's the other way? The board can't individually make recommendations. That's not the board's recommendation. The only way a recommendation from a body, a group is a motion and an approved motion from that group. Okay, I get it. Well, that is that is the fact the Board of commissioners doesn't make a decision one by one. They make a decision. The five of them vote on the whatever the item is. So that's all I'm saying, is that it was if you're going to have a if you're going to follow the code and have this group recommend something which is, as you said at the beginning, completely in their wheelhouse, something they know a lot about and deal with all the time, they're the most appropriate board to make a recommendation, and the code says they should. That's all I'm saying, and all I'm saying is that it's been properly noticed. The board didn't choose to prepare themselves for a discussion, but that's fine. But you are making an allegation. Trying to keep the board going in the right direction, that's all. Okay. All right, now I'd like to have a deliberation and. Okay. We need to think about this. We do. Oka. Okay. I know, I know what you're saying. I'd like to put in a record that or in suggestion that we discuss this next week. Next meeting. Have a little discussion like this again. Oka. Okay. So okay. Because. I'm with Mr. Panic for a little bit because if it's going to be a board recommendation, it's going to have to come from all of us, okay? Right. Okay. If it's not a board resume recommendation is just from individuals and we can do it, you know. Right. The idea would have been what I would have asked for would, would have been a consensus to move it forward in an ad. Your comments. But but it sounds to me like you want to either vote or have a consensus to defer this. That would be if you wish to do that, that would be to a date certain of December 2nd, because I've advertised this hearing in the paper and PNC and BOC. So we will need to defer those to a date certain, which is fine. So that that's what I would ask for, that that's what that's what I think is appropriate to have agreement. Okay. Okay. So we'll continue this next meeting okay okay okay. Well it was probably in there. I just didn't catch it. Staff comments I do have one comment. We had a recent applicant who received a fraudulent email was very, very good. According to our IT director, asking her to wire money to the city it had. They must have pulled from the BOC agenda. This was a conditional use that was heard by another board. Wasn't one of yours that had all the details, including, you know, and it was signed, by the way, with my name, very good email to the point where the applicant luckily called us to find out that they were trying to wire money in how to do that. We will start putting notices, but just for the public and everybody. The city will never hear these warnings before. The city to will never ask you to wire money to the city or provide information over the phone, those sorts of things. So I just wanted to let you know, I don't know if people are looking at agendas or if that's the bad part of artificial intelligence. Who knows? But it was it was a very good email and a very good invoice attached to it. So yeah. Okay. Board. You guys got any comment? Okay. Okay then I'm going to call for adjournment. Time now is 808. Call this meeting adjourned. Thank you very much. Thanks. So much. Here it is in discussion. But, but but all this is. All I have is a front page. Okay. Okay. But I think. The plague.