Show 630. We Called the meeting to order. This is the Tobin Springs Planning and Zoning Board Monday, April 15th regular meeting. Uh can we have a roll call, please, Mr Seaman. Here, Mr Cous Curtis. Mr Vesci here, Mr Zemla. Miss Francis here. Just rock line. You miss early, Miss Swenson. All right. And would Mr Vesci lead us in the pledge of allegiance and a reflection? Pledge allegiance. To the fire. And Yes. So I'm not sure why. That makes me choke up every time. And, uh, As we're lucky enough to meet tonight. With the Guests of the citizens of Tarpon and some new faces. On our board, and, uh, some new faces, uh, for council. We should, uh Be thankful that we can get together and, um, work and Pleasant. Productive way to do the C business. Thank you. All right, that Brings us to our consent agenda. That's the minutes from February. 26th 2024 for approval. Uh, Is Uh, can I have a motion on those, please? All right. Is there any discussion on the item? See none. Can we have a roll call? Ms Swenson. This early. Mr Rockline, Miss Francis? Yes, Mr Bessy. Mr. Chris Kiss, Mr Seaman. Right That brings us to our quasi judicial announcement and swearing of speakers. If our attorney would read those, please. This is a quasi judicial proceeding. Where the planning and zoning board acts in a quasi judicial rather than a legislative capacity at a quasi judicial hearing. It is not the board's function to make law but rather to apply law that has already been established in a quasi judicial hearing. The board is required by law to make findings of fact, based on the evidence presented at the hearing and apply those findings of fact to previously established criteria contained in the code of ordinances in order to make a legal decision regarding the Before it. The board may only consider evidence at this hearing that the law considers competent, substantial and relevant to the issues if the competent, substantial and relevant evidence at the hearing demonstrates that the applicant has met the criteria established by the code of ordinances, then the board is required by law to find in favor of the applicant. By the same token, if the competent, substantial and relevant evidence at the hearing demonstrates that the applicant has failed to meet the criteria established in the code of ordinances, and the board is required by law to find against the applicant. There is an established procedure which will be followed at this quasi judicial hearing and just as a reminder. Any board members who have disclosures such as conflict of interest or ex parte communications, please make those prior to the hearing, um, being started. All witnesses must give their testimony under oath. All persons testifying at the hearing must give their name and address for the record all testimony and questioning at this hearing must address matters that are relevant and material to the issues under consideration. The city staff will present its testimony and evidence first, the applicant will then have an opportunity to cross examine the city staff. The applicant will then present its testimony of witnesses. The city staff will have an opportunity to cross examine the applicant's witnesses. Members of the public opposing the application will then be given an opportunity to present testimony. After all members of the public, speaking in opposition to the application of concluded members of the public in support of the application. The have the opportunity to present testimony. Each member of the public is limited to four minutes of testimony. The applicant will then have an opportunity to make a closing argument or summary, after which city staff were given will be given an opportunity to make a closing argument or summary. Following this, the board will consider the matter. Board may ask questions of witnesses. At this point in the proceedings, a motion will be made and a vote will be taken. If anyone's going to testify, please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swim or firm that your testimony before the planning and zoning board will be the true so help you? Thank you. All right. That brings us to ordinances and resolutions. Uh, Item A is application 24-02. The site plan approval for property at 1201 Gulf Road. This is one that that we saw the first half of the application. Uh, At our last meeting, And so this is this is the follow up with the actual site plan approval for that item . Does the city have a presentation for us? Yes Alec Ken, principal planner with the planning and zoning department. Um again. This is an application for site plan approval for the Tarpon Springs Fire Station 70 at 1201 Gulf Road. Uh, this is under resolution number 20 24-13 . The property itself is, uh, just about 0.89 acres in size. The current land use is the CN commercial neighborhood. Uh, designation in the current zoning is the neighborhood business district And as I was mentioned, there are two companion applications to amend the land use category to the institutional category and the zoning To the public semi public district. Um those are scheduled for a second hearing, uh, with the board of commissioners on May 7th and that would be concurrent with the site plan application you're seeing tonight. As a reminder the property is located on the south side of Gulf Road outlined here in yellow on the screen again. The current zoning is neighborhood business. The adjacent properties to the west are also within the neighborhood Business district. There is single family residential zoning to the north and to the east. And then there's residential plan development zoning to the south, and that is a single family residential neighborhood. Um, this is looking at the site aerial photograph the existing fire station 70, which the proposed um project will replace is located just east of the property. Uh, two properties down right here. Uh, this is a Pictet view of the site. And here is a Google street view of the property looking south, and that is the Jimmy's neighborhood restaurant to the west of the property. Uh, this is looking at the survey of the property and the current conditions. This property is currently undeveloped as the aerial photographs show you, um there are, uh, some large trees of education vegetation towards the rear of the property to the South. This is a look at the proposed site plan. The project includes the construction of an 8200 square foot building. It will have three vehicle bays in the garage area, and it will accommodate seven dorm rooms. It also have some common areas and, um, living facilities within the building. The project has on site parking provided as well as to driveway, access points, one from Gulf Road and the other from, uh, Tarpon drive. There are existing sidewalks along Gulf Road. Uh, there are no sidewalks currently along tarpon Drive. That is a requirement of the land development code with this project, and it is proposed as you see here on the screen. Um The project also includes, uh, pedestrian connections from those public sidewalks to the building. Ah, the storm Water Pond is situated to the rear of the property here, which provides some additional separation from the adjacent neighbors to the south. Um and the proposed site plan does comply with all of the applicable, uh, Land development code regulations. Um, There are two items that were mentioned or three items that were mentioned in the staff report. Um, that provided a little more detail and discussion. The first is in regards to the proposed floor area ratio. The FA R and the impervious surface. Uh, ratio, which is the ISR. Um, the current Land use and zoning categories. Um, don't allow the size of the proposed facility. The city did receive a variance approval earlier this year to increase the FA, R and ISR allowances for the project. So it was approved so it is compliant. Um it's important to note, though, if the property is successfully rezoned and the land use is amended. The proposed project is compliant with those designations so it would be in compliance with the code. The next item is parking. Uh, the land Development code really has a current parking designation for emergency service facilities. That is very broad. Um, it just has one space for 200 square feet of gross floor area. Uh, when you calculate that out for this project that results in the need for 41 on site parking spaces, which is far in excess of what is needed for this facility in the particular the particular use of the property. Um so staff took a more detailed approach to calculating parking for the property. Uh, one the emergency vehicle. Will obviously be contained within the building and the parking bays. The dormitories. We use the lodging, uh, calculation, which is one space per two beds, so that equates to four spaces and then the remaining uh, common area, which is just about 1800 square feet. We utilize the emergency service facility calculation of one for 200 Square feet, and that came to approximately, uh, a total of 13 spaces on site. Uh, the project does accommodate 16 on site spaces, and that includes an access Parking space in the front of the building here that has direct access to the primary entrance. The next item is in regards to the driveway widths, um, for both Gulf Road and on tarpon drive, Uh, the land development code typically only allows a maximum driveway width, which is measured along these property lines of 30 ft. Um, there is a provision within the code that allows modifications to this standard. Uh, for specific situations where these strict application of the requirement would be technically impractical due to existing conditions, property size, natural conditions, safety constraints, engineering design. Similar conditions. Uh, in this case, this is a particular use that requires large emergency vehicles to safely and quickly exit and enter the site. Um the larger and wider driveways accommodate those vehicles for safe maneuvering on the property as well as providing safety when they're exiting of any pedestrians or other vehicles that are traveling along the roadways. Um both the Fire Department staff as well as the project engineer do believe the proposed configuration is adequate for these vehicles and for the property. This is a look at the proposed landscaping plan . Um, this is also in compliance with the requirements of the land development code. Um there are two areas that are required for buffering. Uh, one is along the west side of the property here, uh, between the parking lot and the adjacent restaurant used to this, uh to the West. Uh, the proposed buffer doesn't meet the requirements in addition to the landscaping, uh, they are proposing a, uh, vinyl fence to be constructed. Uh, here where the red line is, Uh, delineated. The other buffer areas between is between the residential uses to the south of the property again. The stormwater pond provides separation, but there's also additional landscaping that will be planted along that rear property line and there's an existing fence, and there will also be adding additional vinyl fencing for, um, more screening of the property. When looking at the review criteria. The first is consistency with the comprehensive plan. Um again, the property is currently within the commercial neighborhood land use category. Uh, we are requesting a map change to the institutional category. Regardless if that is approved or not approved, um the use is consistent with both of those categories. The next is consistency with the land development code. Uh, the application is in compliance with the neighborhood businesses only district standards, with exception to the floor area ratio and impervious surface ratio that I discussed earlier, Um again, we were Received a V approval earlier this year. Um, but once the property is rezoned , if it is rezoned, it will be compliant with the standards of the institutional and public semi public categories. Uh, Next is consistency with even currency management system. The project can be served, uh, with no adverse impacts to city facilities, And lastly, the project, uh, will be required to and is expected to meet. Uh, the building codes. Um It's also noted that the project will meet or exceed the code requirements for critical facilities. The building itself will be constructed to meet a category three hurricane standard. Um and the finish floor area will be at least a minimum of 2 ft. Above the base flood elevation. The technical review Committee completed our review of this project on March 7th. Uh and all comments from the Technical review committee were resolved or addressed as some of the recommended conditions, um, that I'll read on the next slide. With that staff does recommend approval of resolution 20 24-13 of the proposed site plan with the following five conditions. Uh most of these are just our typical conditions that we apply to site plans. Uh, the first is in regards to Gulf Road, which is a Pinellas County roadway. Um so condition one is a roadway connection permit from Pinellas County shall be obtained and included with the building permit application. Number two is the contractor, Shell field, Verify utilities and the and the contractor shall complete, install both potable water and sanitary sewer taps. The city requires 48 hours notice prior to any work completed on the mains. This shall be an above ground reduced pressure meter assembly. Any adjustments to the utilities due to the project are the contractors responsibility. All restoration is the contractor's responsibility, and it is recommended to extend reclaimed water for irrigation purposes. Condition Three construction plan shall be consistent with the approved site plan and all requisite, Uh, fees and approval or fees shall be paid in accordance with the land Development code for the development developer is responsible for meeting the minimum criteria of the land Development code and for requiring any other jurisdictional permits, And lastly, the site plan shall expire at six months from the effective date unless a building permit has been obtained. And that I'd be happy to answer any questions. We also have chief Young as well as uh, Jason Sheridan, which is the project engineer in the audience that can answer any questions that we're not able to. What is the status of the rezoning application, so both rezoning application and the future Land use amendment were approved by the board of Commissioners, Um, on their first reading. They're scheduled to go for the second reading and the final reading on May 7th, which is the date for the site plan as well. So in theory, everything would be, um, reviewed and approved at the same time. Have you received any comments from the, uh uh, public with regard to this? We have not received any written notices or anything from the public. And once once again I know we asked with the prior resolutions, but mailings went out too. Anybody who would be considered an affected party based on location , Uh, so technically for a site plan. Uh there's no public notice requiring for this particular application, but for the land use amendment and the rezoning, the proper noticing went out for those applications. Any other questions for staff. I just had one and I brought it up before and I think Mr De las asked in the board of Commissioners meeting as well. Is there any policy in place for when a city property is Abandoned in the sense as far as the zoning to make sure that I think there's an easement that maybe it can be done so that it stays within like the city, and it can't be sold later under the zoning, current zoning So the current zoning of the existing location is residential zoning. I believe, um, and as the city still is gonna maintain ownership of that property, Ernie, I don't know if you have additional information. Excuse me. There's nothing. Um Binding the city at this point that you know about, you know, future use of the property. I know. I know it's been publicly talked about and I don't I think Scott's here he might be able to speak to it as well. You know our intent. I think the city's intent is to just maintain that as a municipal building for our you know for city uses, um if the city were going to dispose of it , I'll just I'll have to just be able to defer to the city. There's a process for that as well. That would have to be a public process. It's not something that can just concern is that Element that preschool is like one of the most important preschools. It's like I think there's like a waitlist to get in, and I the way that it's currently zoned, which I don't know if it could actually be used that way. But, you know, my fear is that somebody you know, buys both and offers them It's irresistible and I don't want that's just it's too Important to the to the city. So I was. I don't think the city wants to give up anything they already have. So I was wondering if there was a way. That we can rezone it so that it will always be somehow the city and it can't be sold. I think I thought that there was like a utility or something we could I mean there there's a public Is it public? Semi public? Zoning Yeah, we do have a public semi public zoning that we could theoretically process and put on it so it would stay in that type of use. And you know, I can certainly raise that with the because I did reach out to the current owners. And um they said that like that, they're like the only preschool in like town so Yeah, we can. We can look at that and one thing just to know based off of the current zoning designation of R 100. It's primarily single family residential district. It does allow for some other types of uses, but typically, anything other than single family would at least require some sort of public review and approval process. So at least there's some mechanism in place with the current zoning. So the current cell tower that's there will remain. In that location. Oh, yes. Yes. And as a police uses a question for There's a baby. There's a question for the chief , um, has a far as a police department ever thought of using that as a substation out there. Or place a set an ambulance. The police department has asked about using that as To store some of their vehicles. Maybe in the in the future. Um like Renee said, I think the city is planning on using that as a municipal building. And to what extent I'm not sure yet, So there hasn't been any talk of selling it yet. You were chief Young because that would be a good spot for. I think he's talked about that or some type of a training facility to sub substation That has nothing to do with this, But I just thought that you're here. There's a few ideas floating around out there. All right. I would think, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but the value of the pro is it. If the value of the property is at a certain threshold, it would have to go to referendum to even sell it. So I don't know if there's tips that threshold, but it probably would, uh, you know, but since 33 5300 if it's so the value of its 350,000 or higher than It would have to. You have to go to referendum to sell the property. Thank you. Any other questions for staff. I have a question or two Hi. Hi. So I have a concern that perhaps The city is Being given. A lesser standard to meet Than the public would be. In regards to E, FA, FA R and the ISR. And I know that we came up with a quick, simple solution, which is we'll just rezone it, and then it meets it. But And that that works real well for the city. But I've got a concern that the public isn't provided such an equal opportunity. Especially in these times of great concern about Those items. And it's not so much a question. But I need some support that Well. Of course. We want the fire station and it's a logical location, but it it seems to me that we're, um , creating the ends to meet the needs and that we're allowing the city to have a pathway that Another business that may be owned or wanted that property was adjacent to wouldn't be given the same thing. So help me make sure that the rest of the citizens can buy into the fact that it doesn't comply the current zoning and that we're forcing the zoning to meet what we want, so I'll start. So right now the neighborhood business district allows by right this type of use in emergency service facility. As we all know the standards for those types of facilities have really dramatically. Changed over the years. There's certain standards and requirements that they need to meet certain size certain dormitories. All of those, um notions, the first step in this process to allow the city to continue with the design phase was to get approval of the FA, R and ISR variants that goes to the board of Adjustment through a public hearing process. That is a type of application that theoretically, any property owner could apply for so that avenue or that process is available to any property owner. There's a series of I believe it's nine CRI. To me, and it's really put in place for very specific and unique situations and this particular case based off of the needs and the locational requirements for a fire station that was the board's decision to approve those variances looking to the rezoning, really placing city owned properties and facilities within the public, semi public zoning district and institutional land use categories is really ideal. It's one but ST Holder place that you know these facilities are in a Sony district that are meant for these districts. They have Standards that are more conducive these types of facilities. So really, I think methodically, the city is looking to try in place when we have the opportunity to, um, place all of our properties or some of our properties within the correct zoning district. So really, regardless of the need, it wasn't being rezoned just for the FA R allowance. It's really to put the use in the proper location in zoning district. Um so hopefully that provides a little bit of clarity for you. Um, but it's not a process that just the city can take advantage of. It is something that theoretically, any property owner could It does. OK? But I'm just gonna read it. Reiterate what? You just said that any owner along that road that wanted to Get Um A variance against The FA and the impervious services, and I know you said it once, but I just want to make it loud and clear that they have the ability to and would be given the same opportunity. Um to have that done correct the process to apply for that type of variance is available to all property owners. However to receive that variance you the board needs to determine that they meet all nine of those criteria. So just for historical content I had owned that property and actually came to the city back then and requested. Uh we had there not doing what we were gonna do. But But, uh we requested a change in in actually, the Land use, and the city was accommodating for what we wanted to do. And so it wasn't just precluded. For the city's application, but but as a citizen I was able to come in front of the commission and have that changed. Uh back then. And we ended up found a better use, giving it and selling it to the city. But but they're just a historical perspective that you know anybody can go and do Uh and petition petition the commission for a change. That helps it does. Of course, the city is a different kind of applicant. But thank you so much. Thank you. Any further questions for staff. All right, um This one's kind of an unusual situation because because staff is the applicant sort of do we Ask for a An applicant presentation, or we do do we go straight to public comments? I would recommend you go straight to public comments. Uh do we have any members of the public here wishing to speak either pro or con on this item? Seeing none. We will close the public comments. Portion on this item, and, uh I would entertain a motion. I'll make a motion to approve the application. Um Or or it's Uh, application 24-02. Does that include staff conditions, including staff conditions. I would S that Is there any board discussion? Seeing none. Can we have a roll call? Miss Swenson? Yes. Early. Yes Mr Rock. We Yes, Miss Francis? Yes Mr Vey. Yes, Mr Chris? Yes, Mr Seaman? Yes. All right. That brings us To ordinances or no, uh, discussion items. Staff has a discussion for us. Of Land Development Code amendment related to neighborhood conservation overlay district Uh, With the staff like to present Sure, I will, Uh, Just provide a brief overview. I'm I'm I'm drawing a blank. I think we actually may have initially brought this to the To y'all. A few months ago for discussion. Um I don't remember, you know? Yeah I'm I'm drawing it. It's been it's been a bit of a of a of a time crunch . Um So what? What we're proposing is, as you know, we've been working on, um A few different areas around town. Um, looking at How can we You know further, you know, conserve certain dis, you know certain areas whether they be of historic or cultural significance, or there's just something unique about a particular area of tarpon. Um that might warrant some additional protections beyond what's available under the land development code or smart codes and things of that nature. Um you know, the sponge docks and the hope Athens area is one such area. Um a as you. I think you know, there is a there's a national Historic slash cultural district that was put in place. Uh the city was not a party to that. But it does exist. Um, and there's efforts to try to further put some type of conservation efforts. Um, you know, or Conservation mechanisms in place. Um in those areas. Um the city is also, um is we've been working with a consultant on a visioning plan for that area, which we do expect to, um, to receive that draft plan. Um in the next week to two weeks, um and so Uh, the other area of the Union Academy area, um, in a potential central turban, CR A or a couple of other areas where we are looking for a mechanism. Um outside of just the very strict historic preservation. Process that we have access to, to the land development code and our and our comp plan, But so we're trying to create some alternative options. So the this draft ordinance um that's before you attempts to lay out exactly that. It's a an alternative process. It's called a neighborhood conservation overlay, and I've included it under the article that That Includes all of our regular historic district. You know, processes and design processes. Um as a new process at the end, in an alternative to the to that strict Historic preservation, uh, process you if a group wants to adopt a neighborhood conservation overlay, and it's very it would be very specific to a neighborhood or an area. Um and basically it would have its like its own small plan. That would be, um, that could be used for to protect certain aspects. May maybe it's only maybe you want to regulate demolition, Or maybe you want to put some parameters around just new construction. Um, so it's a very flexible mechanism. Um, to, uh To do that to take on that type of a process. So what you have is a draft. Um strike. There's two versions. There's a there's a clean version, which is the first one. That's Listed in the agenda backup and then the second one is the, um the strike to underline Version, and I don't know. Hopefully you've had a chance to maybe look at them. This will come back to you for a SEC for actual formal hearings later on, Um but I wanted to get this in concept. In front of you for a discussion and get feedback. Um before we move to a more formal public hearing process, um I have worked. We've worked with various entities. Um You know, we've worked with the Greek town Preservation group has has has had a chance to review it. Um I sent it to Pinellas County's historic preservation Officer Tom Schofield to have him review it. Uh, we also took it as an opportunity to clean up some outdated language in the overall article, uh, for historic preservation. Um So it's it is a work in progress. I wanted to get it in front of you for some initial feedback, Um I don't anticipate moving forward with adoption of this until I make sure that The direction that we are going to go for the sponge docks and the hope Athens area that if there's public cons, you know support for that that this would might work for it as well. As for the CR, A and the Union Academy area, so it's an initial draft. Um so with that, I'll I'll stop and just try to answer any questions that you might have again. This will come back before you in the future again for formal public hearing. Can you clarify a little bit for me? The difference in the clean version and the and the markup version? Yeah. I mean, the clean version is just, you know, getting rid of all the strike through underline so the track changes version is anything that you see? In Basically, that's in color if you're looking at it online or is either new content or content that's proposed to be changed, so through the original part of the ordinance, you'll see some strikethroughs and some changes. Some of that is just clean up from old language. The bulk of the changes, though, are the new section. Let me bear with me here as the new section 1 18.00. That's on page 24 of 26 if you're in the strength to underline attachment, and that creates that lays out the purpose, the intent how it gets adopted how you know how the regulations are established. Who can apply? Um and that that like that type of detail. What are the criteria for approval, So that really is the bulk of the new process that would create this conservation overlay. Um, option For the For the public. Um It's like when we did the C play. I would look at the strike through because it's the downtown district follows basically the original. So that's everything that they don't have. As The color, right, E. Exactly So I just wanted you to be able to see it in a clean version. Um so that first attachment is just it's not strike to underline it would be if it got adopted tomorrow and codified. That's what it would look like so the but the strikethrough underline is much more informative for you as to what actually is being proposed to be added to this article, Um or changed. Can you go through what's just changed that was outdated. That way. We know that that's not anything to do with anyone's support from any organization. So let me I'll I'm gonna start it to kind of the top of the Of the Attachment and So the first set of strike through underline that you see Is or underlined in section 106.01. So what That does is it basically establishes that they're now are two separate sections of this article. The first is the, um, the traditional Historic districts, and then the second. That's a and then B is the neighbor of conservation overlay district process, So it's just kind of bifurcates that article kind of into 22 sections. Um under the definitions, you'll see some strike throughs. Uh what we what we call a certificate of approval now throughout the entire document. We're changing to certificate of appropriateness, which is the correct term, um, instead of certificate of approvals, um You'll see some, um So the so the changes that you'll see in the, um some of these are just updates to The definitions. We have the cultural district. Uh, definition being added cultural resources definition being, Uh uh, basically a new a new definition. Um, again, the A lot of this is just bringing things into compliance with the national and state level. Definitions. Um And some of these were, um Were suggested by the state of the Pinellas County Historic Preservation Officer Tom Schofield when he reviewed so, um I want. I don't wanna dwell too much on the changes in the definitions. We wanted to talk about resource because that one concerning to me. I don't know if that's just an outdated version because it seems to Yeah, the cul cultural resources . Well it it it used to say, resource. Then now, it says cultural resources but under just resource and sites, buildings, structures, districts objects. It goes on in the black combination, and then in color and associated intangible. Cultural resources such as social practices, rituals, oral traditions, performing arts events, knowledge or skills. So intangibles. Entirely. Um New and Are you? Is it? Are you in the definitions? Four of 26 under four. Ok Hold on. Let me get there. Sorry Oh, you're resource. I'm up. Yeah. Page four. OK? Because in every place , uh, structure is replaced with resource so every time it says structure, it's also kind it could say. Belief. Right, Um Is that? Yeah this this was this was something that was was requested to be added. But that's not an outdated thing that like is I don't I don't let me let me let me let me check on that. So honestly, I don't know if that was a An outdated reference, or was it Uh, a changed reference, outdated or changed. Social practices and rituals. I, I I'll some of these, I'll I will check and I will get back with you all and come back through, so I'll check on so those changes OK? Um Secretary of the interior standards. That's just a definition that we didn't have that we needed. Uh, defining the State Historic Preservation office. Um, we do have again. A we have a change to the traditional cultural property or place. Um You know that kind of ties in with the resource. I'll check that one as well as to the origins of that. Of that change. Not required for significance to Strong beliefs or practices, so. I. I believe both of those are rooted in in the national National historic Preservation, Uh, guidelines, but I'll I'll check both of those. Um so then we're changing landmarks and sites. I'm just flipping through. And landmarks to sites to landmarks is that's a just a regular outdated. Yeah, that was that was recommended by um this, uh, Pinellas County preservation officer. So the other changes that, um and this was this was added by staff because just based on things that we've here heard at public meetings and things so under on Page six of 26 You'll see where we do have, um Is as far as regular historic district designation or designation of structures, landmarks and sites. We've added a that a petition if a petition will be this to be submitted it Would require, um 51% of the land area is indicated by a vote of the property owners for district designation. Um that's been added and then or not for profit civic organizations. So those are 22 different entities that could submit for Consideration of the of a historic district. So those are additions. Um One, the 50% of the land area. We've heard that at public meetings the, uh the not for profit civic organization was a recommendation from, uh From a not for profit civic organization. To be able to make those meetings. When I heard the 51% I assumed that was how the downtown district was doing it until I read this, and I realized that that was not so I think that's entirely inappropriate. And then obviously a nonprofit civic organization should have. No, I mean that's clearly a violation of property rights. And I mean, we could just keep creating them. And then everybody could just be vying for districts. I mean in, you know, endless. I mean, I It's just to me just seeing it in there is really and then yes, and you know the petitions, Same thing. And so it's kind of carries through that 51% of the land area. Um Petition for district designation must provide evidence of a support from at least 51% of the land area is indicated by a vote of affected property owners unless waived by the board, Um or if nomination is submitted by UM board of commissioners, city planning and zoning or the not for profit Civic civic Organization is your objection to the not for profit civic organization that I mean, this is supposed to be less restrictive than that is not so you're not. So you don't think that it that in order for something like this to get adopted that If 51% of the landowners how do you just How do you designate 51% If you haven't don't have the it's part of the process. So let's say, um Listen to sponge docks, if they you know if 51 if they draw a boundary, and they they want some sort of a preservation plan for an area the way this reads, um they would have to have at least 51. That's appropriate of the property of the land area affected property land area. You know, we have to demonstrate that that support is there before you can But does that downtown doesn't have that? They do? Not now, but that's but it but it it's something that it's not in the ordinance. Now the 51% Um I've heard. From folks that they think that land ownership should be very much recognize in these processes and that they should have a more formal Say in a designation so I mean, the I under the landowners is the same as the property owners. But I'm saying this is this is the docks because of its Special. I mean, because of the tourism industry, it should be. There should be more say in what happens there than less. 51% is. I mean, I just don't understand what this is going to be less restrictive. Why the Why? Unless there's less say In designating because the original for downtown there has to be a property owner of record, right? So The original historic district. I, You know, that was set out the Lo, the local historic district that has the all the design guidelines and regulations and I, you know, actually, I know that Miss Pandy is here. So is, uh, Mr T panty. I know they were involved in. You know, they have a lot of history with. I wasn't here when that was originally developed. So the process to put that in place I don't was there. A vote of 51 or support of 51% of the of the landowners? I don't know. I don't. It wasn't required. That is something that new that is being proposed for any of these things to be put into place is that there would be whether it's a full blown historic district or whether it's a conservation district is that There would have to be support in some way shown from at least 51% of the affected landowners of the land area to move forward with it. So affected, though, is that just within or is that because affected could be outside. It would be the intent on this would be with within the boundary. I think that word affect and yes, obviously, the nonprofit civic is that You know? No. OK I mean, everybody has I. I just think that's inappropriate. OK? Um yes. I think the statement may be because of piecing together from different sources and all is very difficult to read for me. At least maybe I'm just fuzzy tonight because it's not been a great day, but I think that's the point. But but anyways, I think it could stand to be, uh Reworded a bit. Because I'm not entirely sure I understand it. The entire process. The entire ordinance or just which piece number two. Um oh. Just just number two right there. Yeah. WW what is which number two. Oh a petition may be submitted by a member of 26. Yeah Under Sea Sea Two. A petition may be submitted by a member of the board. That would be the Heritage Preservation Board. The owner of record of the nominated property or structure, so keep in mind that this could also be for individual properties. 51% of the of the land area is indicated by a vote of the property owners for a district designation. So there's several things in here, Um, the board of commissioners. Can nominate something or petition something. The planning and zoning department. Or a not for profit civic organization can initiate or a petition. So What we're saying is that if there's a district designation to be established, you know for something like a new historic district. That 51% of the land areas could initiate the petition. Or it could be one of these other methods. The intent was that and you see the same thing down below the petition. You have to have that show that Um I don't know that we actually have to have it. It's not part of the actual approval, but you have to have it as part of the application to you know that's that's one option, so it's not actually the way this is worded. It's not That you have to have. You have to have it. For the approval, but you have to have it to. It's a way for they can be initiated. So I take your point. I wanna clean it up. And bring it and I think I hear what you're saying, Um It's just It's not clear so Yeah. I would appreciate it. Yeah. So there's let me ask you this So there's Two. There's Two schools of thought. One is to initiate a process Do you need some demonstrated Support from an area Yes, to initiate to initiate Yes. And more than one more than two So but OK, so let's take it a step further, So let's say it's not the property owners that initiated it, but because right now, the board of commissioners could say We wanna do this? You know, under the way the codes written now, So if the board of Commissioners direct staff to Go forth and put an historic district or conservation district in this area. Do you should you have to show before it gets approved that there is support from at least 51% of the landowners. The area with it within that district, at least OK, so that's two things that all right, so I'll Is there a consensus on that? Everyone's nodding their head. It appears there's a consensus. I mean, I'm honestly not sure it shouldn't be more than 51% That was a minimum. OK, that's what And so before this are you saying that the board of commissioners could just do it with and right now there's no Yeah. Yes I know you could do it. I mean, there's a there's any civic organization around the country and the world. Do you know? Well, the Civic organization thing doesn't doesn't exist yet. Doesn't change yet. Yeah, but But, yes, I mean, there there is a there's a There's a process to establish , You know, a full blown historic district, and that's what we're that's. What you're looking at right now. Is some tweaks to that right now. There's no need for The 50% threshold. That's something that's proposed to be added. Well see, there's three different districts that are being so That's another thing, too. Is it like a I would say the sponge dogs, we would probably want more. But with the CR a. It's there's potential CR A like, we don't That's why I put Yeah, That's why I put 51% as AM that's like a minimum. But from a policy perspective, the board can say, Hey, you know that that that becomes kind of policy driven if we're not seeing like true valid support, and it's not documented. We're not gonna support it. So that's the thing you know All these things are going to play out in a public You know a public process later, so 51% to initiate so I need I'll I'll I'll go try to go back and make these texts clear Now that I've gotten The nuts and bolts of what you support. I think that the 51 would be a hurdle that regardless of who proposes, it has to be met. Can we change the days? Like, make it more advanced notice, too. I mean for ours. I mean, or for any of them for the name from a conservation overlay. That's enough. Let me see you want so for the conservation overlay. Let me Oh, OK, That's a little different. Yeah, that's the difference. So Uh, The rest of this Because I mean, people go on vacation and for like a month, right? I know standards. I'm trying to just slip through and call attention to other. Changes that need to be I'm looking for any clarification on We did clean up the archaeological sites map section just to really comply with State. You know they they really don't want us. Publishing archaeological sites, maps, So we cleaned up that section 112. Miss Um, just Vincent before you feel like you're, um, putting a lid on this box. I'd like to throw a rock in the pond. OK? I've had these papers here. I made notes on Months ago. Suddenly they seem Timely. Uh, as I was, uh, attempting to understand Um The nuance between historical district and a neighborhood conservation overlay district. They're so similar, right? And it's like plenty plan. B you know, plan A seems pretty straightforward but can't pull that off. We'll do a plan B and a struggling to figure out why we'd have a plan B. But Let's say that We wanted a plan B. As I read that several times it reminded me of, uh Process that the city of Dunedin just went through recently. Recently as in started about eight years ago and finished up a couple of years ago, and it used the same terms. A neighborhood overlaid district. Cause quite a bit of brouhaha down there in Dunedin, because, um Um, the people that had recently bought and wanted to do all these things. Um, which was Kind of tear down a good old house and put up a great big new house. It It created some stuff, so they Meaning the city of Dunedin. Um through their planning and zoning board, and they're planning department, uh, undertook a very difficult process of doing an overlay district or a transect. And the crux of that. Stay with me. This will make sense in about five or 10 minutes. The crux of that was that And this is the This is what what I'm about to suggest. But the thought process is an extension of what we're Laying out right here. Is that so? Maybe you don't have a historic district. But you got this great old neighborhood that has got a series of homes and styles and it it builds a certain character , but without any rules, special rules or designations of little old House. Can be torn down and a great big three story wall to wall thing can be thrown up. And that going to happen. The wave is like right there behind us. So These are my old notes in pencil. In fact, Future discussions. Daylight plane plan. See the need in 20. 22-7 Compatibility standards. Uh, I have a note here for this Crystal Beach house. I saw down in Crystal Beach, where four lots were bought up, and it's an incredible structure that they built. But to the left, and to the right are these two cute little bungalows that now those homes are ruined. And then, uh oh, I have here. This doesn't apply right now. Number three EU fast track pre approval. That's too much for this conversation. But there are cities and communities and states that are fast tracking AD U pre pre pre approved, but we'll save that for a later date. But I think this daylight plane might be one of the most important things that we might have a conversation to add to it. Here's the idea of a daylight plane. Daylight plane plan. This has already been done everywhere . We don't even have to think too hard about it. The idea is that your neighbor can't let their small house go. And even though by right they could put up up to 37 ft, But they can't put up to 37 ft and block the sun from your house. The daylight plane. All it does is make some pretty easy, simple standards, it says. If you're going to build this wide, the next floor is gonna be this wide. And the next floor is gonna be this wide so that the lady that bought her house in 1982 as a teacher. Know she's getting price out of her neighborhood that she doesn't at least lose her daylight. When that house comes up, and I know that this is a little bit of a reach for this conversation, But I found a segue in is that that seems to me what a neighborhood overlaid district might be also, so if I could be so bold as to suggest some conversation if we're going to get in here, let's get in here and really tune this up and perhaps use that overlay district for a chance to entertain. And I'm gonna be very blunt and say, Let's just see Dunedin's ordinance Ordinance for 20 22-7 and maybe incorporate some of these daylight plane in neighborhood compatibility standards and just write that in and then just by accident. We've protected some of these, um mature neighborhoods that we don't want to see turn into other things, and with that, I'll quit talking about that. I think those are great thoughts. Um, I'm and I'll be the first to a I was not familiar with that section of Dunedin's code, so you can bet we will go. Look at it, Um That is something that certainly so Something that we could It could be part of a neighborhood conservation overlay. Absolutely I think what you're saying and we can. We can include that as an example of something that some that somebody could come and ask for that to be included in their overlay. Um I think you wanna go maybe a little farther than that and say, Let's implement that I think that's a I think that's a good follow on discussion from once we get the comp plan, updated This summer. Um we we're gonna have to do some, You know, pretty extensive land development code updates. That's something that I think is a very relevant discussion to consider when we start updating the land development code and the smart code, So, uh and I wanna piggyback kind of what you just said, because it doesn't have to be somebody building a monstrosity to be compatible. All you have to do is drive that Grand Boulevard. OK And if you know what I'm talking about, there's a house that is so way out of place that, um, I think that more than the paint color and absolutely that's but, uh, but when you get into Some of the discussion as to sunlight and stuff like that. What are what are the what are the How do you measure? Is it a subjective? I mean, that's that's the biggest concern. I have. The math has been done for us. It's fantastic. It's just like going back to Newton's lodge. They're just there. And it'll be easy. This is now. I. I don't wanna throw the my intent is not to throw roadblock or to stop the process, but it just seemed a neat opportunity and then maybe at a minimum. A reference in the neighborhood. I've lost it now. I can definitely get it as a reference that perhaps a reference to compatibility. Daylight plane just kind of looking towards the future that could reference a future work and, um In this The city. Yes sir. There are specific. I'm looking at Dunedin, where you're in that It's a neat program. Now we get a little bit far detailed for some, and it took them years to finagle this out. Yeah it's pretty tight, but at least just to, uh, incorporate a concept. This is the first iteration where we can just soften the beachhead and say, Hey, we know that we're gonna have these new construction pressures and this door That you have, thankfully opened for me. Thank you. In regards to this. Uh uh, Article seven might be a nice place to just plant a seed and then a little bit later, we can work it the Dunedin they have pressures. I'm gonna go off track just for a second. The there are pressures were greater than ours. And it was reactionary. In in a as opposed to precautionary We still have the opportunity to be a little bit precautionary. Um so that we're not, um A lot less scary than everybody in. You know my neighborhood seeing this because this is terrifying, understand? And that's the thing I the thing that I need to get people at least with this list, But pros Ordinance change. It's not going into effect anywhere. It's just laying Establishing a process that somebody could take advantage of an area and it may not necessarily even be that historic. It might be just something unique about an area that they want to make sure that they protect you know their 19 seventies, you know. Construction type. You know, whatever that might be, So it's a you know, it's not, you know. This is this is an opportunity, but it's not a mandate for anywhere unless somebody goes through the process to establish the overlay, so I don't uh, Hopefully that will lay some people's fears. You know that this doesn't This doesn't do anything except establish an another alternative that can be taken advantage of. So I think that it's important because I think that that is actually driven by the right motivation rather than I think the control that is really driving these changes, and that's what makes me uncomfortable is that this is not really about conservation from some of these Um, the people that have been put on this. It's just about how I want it to look and I think this is really hitting more in the head of actually what we want without telling everybody how they can paint their doors and whatnot understood. Yeah, and we had it incorporated in General Zoning Renee up north, where we call it . Sky plane explosion and basically it was just additional setback based on the height to allow war. A lot of it was ruled. By the lot size. You had different different triangle configurations. But it uh it worked very well. And I don't think there was ever a single complaint. One of the codes that lie worked on at the county. She did a lot of you know the lion share of work on two different form based codes and there was a neighborhood. Manners I think was the one was one of the one of the criteria and it really did kind of speak to that. I don't know if you wanna Expand on that or not, or It's just It's kind of. I think we're all talking about kind of the same thing. Um Yeah, I forgot that. I used it as that term and it's great. But, yeah, it was it. It was a different way to say compatibility and maybe a more understandable way as you know, Neighborhood manners, so we put into place different form standards to address exactly kind of what you're talking about. You know? Yes there's gonna be new construction. We know that things are going to be built next to older structures where you could put form standards in place that are complimentary to your neighbors without affecting them. And some of those, you know, stair stepping your height, so it doesn't look as monstrosity. Uh, next to a small building. Um, I, I can look back at Those codes. Um the downtown Palm Harbor code is one that's in effect. Um and then the Lehman form is code down South County. Um that went into effect that one had some changes in I love so I'll look at what we put in place, but it's been a little bit since I know the details, but that was exactly the thought process behind neighborhood manners was, you know it's not so much as like You said, you know, dictating your door style, your windows and that type of thing. It was how to context sensitive infill. Which is a new term. We've all learned through the comp plan process. That's exactly what that means. So being sensitive to the area, No, no, Exactly. Exactly Neighborhood Mans is a really, really soft. I was really clever back in the day. You're still clever and this neighborhood manners might not be appropriate for the historic preservation, even the neighborhood But if we can get it on the radar, and it might be a third It could be so whatever you think is best now that I've brought that and I think based off of, you know all of the policies and things that we've gone through at the Comprehensive Plan Update Invite incorporating some of these ideas in the context sensitive references that just sets us up to make those changes in the light of Al Code, and we go through those update processes. So Yeah, we definitely hear what the city wants. What and what we may. What we might want to do is maybe further bifurcate to, uh to Best. He's point. You know, I. I would like Some sort of a conservation district that does recognize You know, in historic area, but we you you're right. We may need a third alt third alternative. That kind of is not necessarily so much associated with historic or cultural as it is just neighborhood manners. It might be a good base to start off with the rest, too, rather than Than this, maybe in form it from that, instead of What we already have here. I mean, because it's gonna be different. What I'll I'll be in and I'll the attorney might be able to help me with this one of the things that I'm concerned about. With Where we are trying to. If it is an historic area, and we are trying to, um, protect something, you know that A softer, you know, not the full blown, rigid historic district, but we're recognizing the historic nature of it. I is. I That's why I kind of wanted to keep this conservation overlay under the historic monitor because the state is continually trying to take away our local they, you know they're so we may need that third alternative. A conservation overlay that's historic, and then maybe just some other neighborhood overlay period. That Yeah, that that's not in the historic and reading Dunedin's, uh, overlay zoning districts, Which kind of does that it's a general and then Talks about specifics a little more. So you're talking about the same thing because it's going to single site or, uh, Historic and then um other district boundaries of requirements. Character overlay, which was what you were talking about, So it's pretty. It's pretty broad and its application . I think in that you're talking about the other alternatives that that's probably necessary. Um I mean this our smart code. If we expand the area of it can also address a lot of these. These these concerns as well, Um which might that might be number four, then? Yeah, that. Well, that's already. Yeah, that's on our radar as There's some areas that, um And would probably be very well served by just having their own character district and smart code designation in last, but not least, every neighborhood is precious, and it's easy to become very central focused of Tarpon Springs is this is Tiny little area, but there are valuable neighborhoods way out on the perimeters over on tarpon and down on Closterman , and every one of those is valuable, and all of those neighborhoods deserve the same thought and protection that the central ones do, too, because they are all valuable. OK, well, I Uh, Very simple and small and detailed comment compared to the grand Things that that we were speaking of, but, uh on six of 26 item D six. Needs the same sort of editing that that we were talking about. In the other item. It has the 51 the likes of clarity. I'll pick it up throughout the documentary. No problem unless waived by somebody else. Um, can I can I ask, Um, it was an ad to the document this this not for profit civic organization being able to initiate these things. Um, is that I just think that's entirely inappropriate and doesn't even I don't think whoever suggested this took into account that it could be anybody . It doesn't date where they came from. I mean, it's just very It's serious. It's obviously you, you know who is who's most behind this. It's a single person. Yeah, a single person can form a nonprofit. Yeah. I mean, I could just agree with you. I'm gonna put her house into it. Might be a horrible That Is there a consensus that we're not? In favor of that, If there is I'll just carry that forward. I I can't think of a case where a group like that couldn't approach. You know the BC or or somebody who does have the power to do it or good point or they would Be part of the neighborhood and go out and get the 51. Right? OK? Um any other big picture? Or or tiny detail. Um, I think again. This this is obviously it was just discussion tonight. So um, we'll keep working on this and You know, II. I don't wanna bring it forward for public hearing until I feel like we've really got it where we need it to be, so I very much appreciate. The input. Yeah I guess in the next one could we see like just the NCO without the stuff that doesn't apply for the That's hard to differentiate in in there for that. Yeah. Let me let me take a swing and see if I can Make these More clear, and it might literally just be completely bifurcating them The first time I've ever even read it never looked at so I would and I was again I was trying to keep the neighborhood conservation overlay. With the historic inside the historic district article because of this Being able to, you know, because the state keeps pushing down this. You know, if you you know the only way that you can do design regulations as if you've got architectural review boards or if you've got this this or this, and so it, it becomes hard to regulate design because the state continues to chip away at our local Oh, I also think if this were to go is the HPV board would be I mean, They would have to be working full time. Well the well in essence, the conservation overlay district. Is it's set up so that you know That It's unique to that area. And so you may not need to go to the H PB. It might just be. We want these things so it could be administratively done with Yes, so that that's why I drafted. It is very kind of open and you have to kind of go through. You have to go through a planning process and come up with a document that says this is how we're going to operate. Um And maybe maybe it's a maybe there is a review committee that's from within that district that gets established of their own so that you know you're your own, you know, so that I didn't want it. I didn't want it. Can go to the historic preservation board. Just watching the meetings like everyone that comes to that board is like Developers and they have millions and millions of dollars and I couldn't and they get they are told No. So I mean, I just feel like if I had to do that, like I wouldn't be able to afford to live in my own house, you know? So This is all great feedback. I appreciate it. If staff If you feel Based on your vast experience that the CO districts are best served by steam underneath the Heritage Preservation Board. Chapter seven. Then I would support that . Let let Let me let me we might be able to take that swing with the state doing to make sure you have that ability. That's the problem. They're taking away your ability to really control this. And so we're trying to do may have to do it under these certain Um, development. Tables. Of certain things you may not consider would fall in there. But then you lose control. If you don't have that. That will be something you're gonna have to decide. Continue to finance that so OK? OK? And there's no action. Right So no, I think there are some folks from the public that might want to speak, though. OK Uh do we have members of the public wishing to speak? Approach the microphone and state your name and address, please. Yes sir. Thank you. Mr Chairman. My name is Cindy Tapan. I live at 22 North Spring Boulevard in Tarpon Springs. If you, uh, indulge me a little bit on the time, I can shed a little light on the origins of the original historic district and how it worked, Um, over the last 23 years that I've lived here it was established in 1990. There was no vote, uh, to buy the property owners as to come in or not. It was very I was not here in Tarpon Springs at time My husband was and he You people were on the property owners were very much in favor of in both in the downtown and in the residential area to have something to protect their historic resources. Because you can think of 1990. There were development pressures, of course , at the time, and then the other major reason they wanted it is that they were trying to get, um, a main street designation from the state of Florida and the and the Main Street program really wants you to have that local regulation in place so that there were kind of two reasons, so it was very much generally supported by The property owners, But there was no no vote for it. Um It's worked well over the last 34 years. Um, about 1718 years or so ago, Um, as an area was added to the historic district. That's what we kind of call the fruit salad area. Some of you may not know, but what happened at the time I was on the preservation board at the time. Um, is there uh, was There was a discussion about whether or not the expansion should go to the south to the to the fruit salad area, south of where the historic district is today, or go to the north, which into the residential part of Greek town. It did not. It was not really a discussion to go all the way to the docks, but it was the residential part of Greek town. And so the city sent out, um, a kind of a did an informal straw poll. They sent out postcards or letters. I can't remember which one and asked people to respond back, Um, in writing, whether you were in favor of a historic district in your area or not. Um and the fruit salad area was overwhelmingly in favor of it, and the Greek town residential area was overwhelmingly not in favor of it. So at the time, the decision was made by the staff to do the survey, the historic source resource survey of the fruit salad area and eventually that there's an area of Frutal was brought into the local historic district. So that's kind of how that um, came to be in the last recent couple of years, Um, Renee and all of her team with a consultant updated the design. Lines which was well , you know, way overdue. Um, So now we have a really good set of design guidelines that works in that historic district. So I would say to you based on all that, Um, let me just also say I, um, you may some of you may know I live in the historic district. Uh, my husband and I own property in the downtown section of the historic district. Um, I served on the preservation board two different points in time. I was chairman for part of it. I also was executive director of the Florida Trust restored preservation, which is the only statewide preservation advocacy group in the state of Florida. And through that position, I was became very familiar with what cities and counties were doing in preservation. Over the state. Um so and then I also, um when I work for the city of Tampa, Um we wrote the first historic district, enabling Ordinance for the city of Tampa and the first historic District, which was Hyde Park. Now there's about seven or eight districts under that umbrella ordinance. So I'd say that just to tell you that I do know a little bit about historic preservation, and I've been a planner for 43 years, So I also know about neighborhood plans. I think these are two very distinct things. The historic district and the neighborhood overlay. I think the historic district you should just you know, you might have some clean up do do. You might have some minor updates for visions you need to do, um, like the certificate of appropriateness instead of certificate of approval, And, of course, encourage you to do that , But I think the neighborhood overlay district should be a separate item. How are you structure it to make sure you don't go awry with the state, but they're really two different things. Um and they can regulate the they will regulate different things because the neighborhood overlay is going to be unique to that. Historic neighborhood or may not be a historic neighborhood. It just may be as Mr Vesey was saying, a neighborhood that has some unique features that they want to maintain, and I salute that, and I think that's a good idea. I would urge you to be really, really careful about the 51% and the voting. Um you might wanna consider it as a petition rather than a vote. But if you're a property owner, you have to sign a petition whether you're in favor or not, Um, And then that may you might wanna have that to initiate the process so that the staff doesn't spend a lot of time doing an overlay district for people who really don't not interested anyway. I think that an interest and, uh, evidence of support, probably a good idea requiring that to approve I think your attorney is gonna tell you is in violation of the city commission's policy, um, their authority to make policy. They get to decide that so whether there's 51% or not, Maybe there's 75% in particular neighborhood. The commission's gonna weigh all that when they make a decision, But I as I again I don't think you ought to add the voting within the historic district is moot really has nothing to do with historic district, but it may be appropriate in the neighborhood overlay. Um, I definitely do not think you ought to, uh, allow a not for profit civic organization, which may or may not as an organization probably will not own property within that neighborhood overlay. Um so they really don't have a dog in the fight. Um I experienced this . Um I worked on a couple of projects in the city of Saint Petersburg, and they have a very active citywide preservation group who proposed, um, a landmark at least two that I know of, uh, a landmark and historic district, where there Property owner support. Not only was there not support, they really didn't talk to this property owners before they submitted it to the city. Now, come on. That's really not fair to that property owner. So I think at least the 51% I encourages some conversation among those property owners. And then the last thing that I would suggest about, um, the neighborhood, Whatever called Overlay District Conservation District is, since each one is going to be unique to that particular neighborhood. I would encourage you to put in the ordinance that The design guidelines or the list of items that are going to be regulated in that district need to be laid out in a document and available to the public at least 60 days before your first public hearing , So it's very clear to that neighborhood. OK we're gonna regulate the type of fence you have in your front yard and whether or not you have a front porch, that's all we're gonna regulate or more extensive. Whatever it happens to be, then you're very clear with people about what whether they're in favor of it or not. They Make an informed decision and participate in that public hearing process. But if you don't do that, I have seen that, um create problems as well, because people don't know. And they the grapevine, Um usually gets the information wrong as you can imagine. So that's my other suggestion. Um I do have some minor suggestions. I'll um send to Renee to have for the next time, but I would just really encourage you to keep those two historic districts in the neighborhood Conservation district. That's two separate entities. They have two separate And, uh, probably two separate groups of processes. Thank you. Thank you for your thoughts and comments any any questions? I just want to thank you as well. Very valuable comments. Um what you just laid out? I don't know if Herne was taking notes, but I, I think those are things. You also should include it in the email. Sure because I think some of those give a lot of, uh, value to what we're discussing. Sure, I'd be happy to Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Would he Any other members of the public like to speak on this item. Good evening board members and Mrs Francis Anita Protos 901 Bayo Drive. When all this happened, it was on my terms as on the board, and, uh, the only hard thing is, we need to have a few on the overlays. Please put something up here so that people can see it when they come. And everything that Mrs T Panny told you is the whole truth. Nothing but the truth and we worked very hard on it. There's all kinds of rumors out there on the street I . I went to the Greek bakery today and got pounced on from the coffee house. Next door. They don't understand. I don't care for some of the overlays. It's intruding in areas where it shouldn't be intruding. Uh they weren't. Uh, I can tell you stories about when the Greek people started buying houses uptown. Pascal Street. Energy, uh, in into the fruit section. And What? Ha! What happened? And then it was understood what was going on. So get it all out and black and white so everybody can read it and know it. I'm coming up to see Renee. I've got some questions and I can bring you books and show you things and maps of the area, But, uh, be careful of the overlays, please. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry. I didn't catch the name of that last speaker. Anita I need I need a former mayor. I need a protos. Miss Miss Miss Protos Mi mi mi protos. Would you come back to the lectern? If I said pretty please to say that no. You know a much younger me. Used to watch you on the board. Oh, God. And when I was just thinking about joining the code enforcement board a decade plus ago, I'm not quite sure why I was thinking of doing such a thing. I was the kind of geek that would go back and watch all the videos of city work. You were my hero. Well thank you. I have one commissioner told me I was a. You were you were I'm a. But you know, I'm a bit for Tarpon Springs. I thought because I think there's some people that say that about me with a different word sometimes. So I want you to know that that I watched a whole bunch of you, and, um we're lucky to have you You know, I grew up with my grandfather going to meetings, I would fall asleep in the old City hall on the long benches like they had in church. I remember going to the show house when there were emergencies. He took me to everything. I remember the Greek Church board meetings when George Takas hit him across the head with a cheer . He got mad at him. I got a lot of history, but So do the tear panties. So do the faes. Uh, Thomas. Craig was like a father. I can tell you things that have happened in tarpon that May tarpon In some of the rules we have Her father was my boyfriend in high school, and, uh, We? The Greek community is a beautiful place. Be conscious with what you do. But the overlays are important. The bayou doesn't belong near the overlays. Uh, Some of the areas that it hits. It stops a canal Street in the street over where the Greek community was, so we'll be here. But I can tell you what Mrs T Panny tells you and Mister T pan. He tells you it's the truth and the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Uh any other members of the public wishing to speak No. I have to ask. Um uh, All right, Uh, I guess we have no action to Take on this item at this point, right? No just discussion and, uh, taking good notes and I very much appreciate all the feedback and the public input from from the public. It's very much appreciated. All right, that That brings us to the, uh. The last item on the agenda. Yeah and I've I've lost it here because I don't have nice paper pieces to flip. Uh. See a little break. Merle Yeah, I got it. Board board and staff comments, so the staff has an update on the comp plan for us. We take a five minute break. Um Have a five minute break. Absolutely thank you. All right. Five minute break. F. You and your birds some time here. I has Update on. Turn this on. Should I? OK This is just a relatively quick update of things that are going on and letting us know how to access it to review it over the next few weeks. Uh and then ultimately will be given the chance to come in. So this is not really for us to make Additional comments tonight. She's just wanting to bring us up to date and let us know what's going to be happening. So uh, what do you have included? Um, in your agenda back up is, um one document you have not yet seen, And that is the data and analysis, but that was everything that was driving the changes that you work through all the elements with you. So you have the full data and analysis and that's looking at, you know, projections out to 2040. You know, it's an interesting read. There's a lot of data there. Um that informs the actual updates to the you'll see the you've already worked through with The, um all of the elements, so you have all of the elements kind of in their final form. I do wanna just provide a kudos to a big kudos to Ali. She took all this information. You see the format of those documents. Now that's all, Ali. Um The other thing that you'll notice is that when you go through the data and analysis, it's arranged and we integrated. The comp plan with the strategic plan, and we tried to make those linkages as well as with the sustainability plan, so we're trying to trying to bring all those things together. Um For, uh, you know, for the public, So you have all the all the draft elements that you had already already reviewed. We worked through all those workshops. Um, there's really not been any Any any changes. Hardly at all to the actual elements. Just just the format that you're seeing them in the introductory language and things like that. So the actual goals, objectives and policies that this board reviewed are largely identical, Yeah in court and incorporates all the changes that that we worked through. Um uh, with you. Um so this is kind of like a transmittal to you guys. We'll do the same thing with our other boards. Um and then we'll be coming back with kind of a more formal we need Do some additional community engagement. At this point, we'll put this up on connect carbon. We need to re-establish the steering committee. Um let them review again. Um the various boards, But and then it will really start the formal adoption process. Um Sometime after that, so try to we'll try to wrap up the rest of the community engagement, probably through May and, um, to hit all those all those other boards. Um we will come back to you. Um if you like we can come back to you with as like, more like a discussion. So this is kind of transmittal. So you got plenty of time to review and we can schedule it for another discussion with this board before we start the public hearings. Two things up my name and Peter's name are spelled wrong. 00, the Lais and All right. I have a I have a question, You know, First of all , uh, all the hard work that's been put into this, Um, has there been any active public involvement or is it just Apathy . You know, by the public, We haven't. Well initially, I mean with this, Unfortunately, this now goes back to like 2022 when we started the process, So we had, um, a lot of public involvement. Pretty intense up front. We had the online surveys , um, and things of that nature. Since then, then we then we just started working. Internally with staff, and then we went through the process with the planning and zoning board through all those elements since the so now we need to start a legitimate second round of public engagement to get comment on the draft plan. So that that's where we are. OK. Thank you. And how many have you done? Renee of these Uh, of these, um, works that the workshops that we did. And from the in the very beginning. Yeah, like, Oh, my gosh. Um I don't know off the top of my head now. Um, like the last one was like, how many years ago? Oh, we, um it would have been in It was in 2020. Summer of 2022. Yeah 22 summer of 2022. And we've been working on so like what we did you did there before. Exactly Yes. Did they did they do it the same way we did like going through line by line. More exercise. No there there was. It was the more broader engagement of what do you wanna see for the community? It was, If you recall, we had those workshops where we invited the college. Exactly Yes, the Saint Pete College library there the library. We had one at, um, the rec center. Um so we had and then we went to all the boards with formal exercises that and got input. So we took all of that. And then and I obviously we went through. You know this. The I can't remember how many workshops we went through the planet was planning and zoning board. I watched back at the meeting when I think it was just Donovan and Ka. That Talk to Katherine. And, um, Chris was mayor. So when they first brought her on when you know from Tillman and, um, at that time, I don't even know if he was running for mayor. Maybe I'm not quite sure so. You know, because that was a big piece of his. Um And you know the rest of the commission's, um, campaign is the comp plan, but I don't think and I know that we've had the You the community outreach, but I think kind of about halfway through. We were like, Oh, OK, This isn't really focusing on redevelopment, right? But it should have been because that is definitely the mayor's. And you can hear that in it. I know I talked to, uh, Commissioner Eisner or Vice Mayor Eisner today and he said the same thing and I think it's definitely good to go back over because I think that we kind of Got into that and realized that that the way that it was going wasn't really for redevelopment. And I think the focus I don't know what the hired the lady and then didn't really see if that was her focus, and that didn't really kind of connect. Um because there's definitely things that you know, after talking to like Regina That, you know, she made sure that there's certain things we definitely need to protect in there, And I know that there was like visitors and tourists and I let like, let that one go and I don't I don't want to let the tourism part Go. There's definitely things that I saw in there that, um Slipped away and I learned about the code hacking and all of that entirely too late trying to catch up. And now that you know, we started seeing it with, um Was the Mo Moses Tucker. Mhm Not that that was good, but I mean the way that those things are taken advantage of when something has changed, and it doesn't happen and all of a sudden it's lost in the mix. And then every time somebody comes up, you know, so just guaranteeing that everything and again it's a comprehensive plan. So It should be a little bit. It's OK for it to be redundant. As long as it's not, you know, looking back. You know where there was. You know, the word encourage, was there and so she struck the whole thing and kind of, I think a little bit. Was it thought maybe we just weren't gonna pay attention. And just like, Well, you don't want you don't want attorneys involved like we were kind of Hold on. And then you know, we kind of caught on to that. And but I don't know what we missed. And um, you know that with you guys did, but, you know, Sure. There were things that you know, and I get that you were saying, Well, this is just how we do it. But at the same time That's how we keep finding ourselves in these positions where they don't match and there's no reason I remember as a older meeting with Ali, where she brings a smart code in this in the in the Special area plan, and they don't match for something, and she's just Oh, and it's nothing against you. I'm just saying that if these Someone I think from your board, or maybe was a board of adjustments like When were these implemented at the same time, and this doesn't match. You know, and we continue to do that where they don't match and we never get the adva like we never win in that somehow it always goes to the developer. And you know, by the time we found out about this, or at least I did this code hacking. It's an intentional. Ah, not on on your part. But these, you know, I forgive what is code hacking? It was a It was a term that that our consultant used that and it's really what the intent behind it is, is actually to. When you look at your Your codes. And in a lot of ways Sometimes codes are Very rich or restrictive in ways that maybe you don't understand. So maybe they only they won't even allow redevelopment and recognizing those things she had not agenda that was her focus. That was her thing. Her expertise was affordable housing, but That so she by default, not to her anyway. She's great at what she does. That's why she does seminars. But that's kind of her thing. So everything she changed. Remember when we're going through the code M Mike That everything was for affordable housing, affordable housing, and we're like, Why does it have to include that because they live local act already does. And so the ones that the meetings I was watching that she runs are for that, And they're just talking about eliminating parking and removing the word compatible, which was a huge thing because it takes away our ability, and that's Again. We don't have any space left. So let them have all that. Some of these these words counties that have space. They want these developers. They're trying to attract them. And so that was what she was doing. I don't think when they signed her on it goes to Because it doesn't really go with what he was. You know, He's like we're full and she's just like trying to find like different ways to. Well, I think yeah, I think when you I think when you read through the data and analysis, you will be the next five. Yeah, I think you'll be pleasantly Uh, I think you I think you'll be pleased with where we have, finally and it's you know, it's the staff that really we went through in a for the fine detail, Comb the data and analysis. Of course, we did work through all the elements with with y'all as a board. So um, that is all I will say 99% intact from, you know, from all those sessions, we haven't changed anything. Since then. Um the data analysis is I mean, it's just a There's a lot of it, but I think it's an interesting read from the perspective of things like density and intens. And stuff. And so I think you'll I think you'll see a lot of what we talked about coming coming through. Yeah, well, so we So we have it all. Now you have it all now it all to us. We've got the data analysis. We've got the cleanest version possible. For the moment we have the opportunity to all review it. Please review it. Look at it and make comments and we get to move forward and we'll we'll We'll have a what? Out of fairness. I think you know that because the data analysis is important. I would like to come back to you at a future board meeting. You know, maybe May, Um and We can have a discussion. When did you go to the other boards? When does it go to like HPV and like, um, we're do we have so we It's the board of Aju. We've sent it to the board of Yeah. What we're what we're doing is we're sending it out to the various boards. Sustainability is already seen seen it? We're just making an opportunity for them to ask questions. Um I expect you y'all would probably be the most inquisitive board of any of them. But I do wanna make it available to them transmit it like we're doing this essentially and to say at a future meeting, we'll we'll be there to answer questions. Maybe do a brief presentation and take any, you know, comments or concerns from the other boards as well. So that'll be. We will be working through that through May and June and then Start the public hearing process. And how does it get presented to the BOC? Um, it will There will be invited to basically The formal Any formal public engagement. They can obviously can go. But I'm gonna I have to do a transit to the board, just like I'm doing to you. They see that, um strikethroughs. They We'll have that available at this point. I would present it as a what you're seeing here not not in STRIKETHROUGH, because that's so unbelievably I That's the way I understand it. It's Yeah. Um We'll make that available to the board. You know, I'm I'm sure I'll probably have a workshop with the board at some point to go through all of this. I mean, that will just be necessary. So before we go to a public hearing process So I feel like we're getting close. I'm excited to get it done. Very good. Uh, I have One brief board comment, I guess, uh If and You can tell me if it's not appropriate, but we have a charter Revision committee starting up next week as we've had our workshops related to the comp plan and the other workshops that we've had over time. There were quite a few items at various different times that I can't remember specifically where where we said That's something to address when the charter is revised. And If staff could possibly go back, Oh, man and try to put together a reminder. Uh We? We have a chance to clean up some of those things that that were issues or problems in the past. Uh Well. We can T we'll We'll be charge We need Pat. Yeah Pat. Pat would be all over that, Um We we'll we'll go back and see what we can find I. I remember a few times I even said, write this down on the list for when this happens, so hopefully it shows up on our minutes so we can just search our minutes, so hopefully there's something there someplace II. I know it can be a lot a tedious going through all that, but we'll do our best. But, uh, any reminders and also just be thinking everybody be thinking about anything else? That, uh, that we know of. The charter wise that needs to be addressed because because and I saw I must sit on the same. Committee with the Meryl, but, um You know, One of the things I was gonna mention, is the department's since we're here. Uh, the departments should have some Things they'd wanna see. You're not, You know recommendations of the charter as every department should have. Um Not that they would be adopted. But you know, when you look at the charter, there's certain cleanup that has to be done. And uh and so, uh, staffs, comments or staff's Uh, Thoughts are I think are are critical, I think. Well, this Evening's meeting is important because I know that Somebody on the board mentioned G Town Vision plan in some future charter stuff, So it's good that you guys have got this information before that. Yeah. In any other board. Comments. Um Except that I well, I guess. Uh, is there gonna we had our last our last meeting. OK, there was one item on the agenda. That I think we had, I think unanimous unanimously approved, Um, that went in front of the commission and for one reason or another, Um, I, I would imagine it's uh, my understanding and maybe coming back in front of this board. And back in front of the commission. Um and I guess that means you know I don't Renee, I don't know if you want to comment or not, but But we haven't received an application yet, but we may is my understanding, OK? And so I guess my only comment was III. I felt that this board was disrespected. Um, you know, by sort of comments that were made Um and, uh You know, I just wanted to Get on my soapbox and then a little bit, So I wasn't gonna say anything, but since you brought it up, Um, I think that we did a really good job. With that meeting, you know, and I Um But some comments definitely for my vote. And You know, I prepared You know Well in advance for that, because you know, as you all know, Bessy gave me some, um Altoids before this started, I think because he didn't want me to start talking. Because I'm very sensitive about the Spongebobs, but I'm open minded and I you know, I listened very carefully. So the only thing I would say is that you know, since we did such a good job, we covered everything. And clearly some of them did not watch the meeting because we answered every question they had . And then he asked again, and I could see that applicant was a little frustrated with that as well. But I think that How we could do better is it because we were unanimous? There have been times when Somebody wants a to add a condition and maybe that person somebody here says no. And I. I feel like if that's just one away from From a unanimous vote. Clearly can't hurt to do that to us. Show that we're reasonable because clearly some if they don't want a certain thing, they're just not gonna do it. They're not even going to consider our vote. So I think the more unanimous we can be it. It matters because, you know DiDonato clearly said, you know, was the vote 52. Renee and you said no 70. And he goes. Oh better even better. And then he didn't ask the applicant. One question. He did not nominate one of us. And he's the only one that did that. And nobody else even mentioned. Nobody called me and asked me why I voted the way I did and they're perfectly you know, they're allowed to, um And some didn't watch the meeting. So I just think maybe sometimes You know, even information, misinform misinformation, or like you said not what? Not Here that watching US vet the applicant. And then and it's one thing. To personally attack. An applicant What we always have to remember. At least I know this board doesn't That applicant is just an applicant and is a resident or a citizen of this of the city, and they are business person in the city and so they deserve. The respect of what you know whether you vote yes or whether you vote? No it doesn't matter, but people are entitled to be respected. Uh, when they reached when they reached that podium And that's that's a courtesy that this as a board We instill And unfortunately it it doesn't necessarily go to the next level. I'll make my first comment. I I was trained that morning for this board. And I was Here because somebody wasn't here. I listened to the whole thing. And I agree with you 100% I also agree, and people may be watching this that we were disrespected. Um We ask them all the questions we could. I think part of the issues where they think that we could have had more analysis on The round about as well as the travel down the road and more deep. Engineering thought to it. And you know, I questioned myself. Did I do something wrong? Because I heard it right out right that we didn't do a good job. Well said the planning and zoning committee did not do a good job and then on top of it, some of the commissioners who I'm not gonna name We're really hard on our applicant and saying I don't care what a great business person you are. I don't care what you've done before that should come into play at all. Um And so, um, I sit here and I think Because I don't know a lot about all of this. And so I haven't said much, but to that I am gonna say I'm not gonna sit here comfortable. Um Well, it's even more unfair to you because you know some of us, you know, have gotten that and expect it. But it's unfair to you because you were well. We were all insulted whether you were been here a long time or you're new, but more so I think is that I watched the meetings just to see how they I. I don't care how they're gonna vote because I know it doesn't really It's not our job. But what It was uncomfortable is that I know like I have a feeling how they're gonna vote sometimes and I. I knew that that was gonna be a no vote. And sometimes I feel that applicant, you know, was not Was walking into that. I knew that I didn't think it was going to be that way. And I That's why I'm I'm wondering if like and if we could have pushed more Conditions. Because it's not helping the applicant. Not that that's our job. But if we had, you know, like that would have made a difference. It wouldn't have made a difference, but it would have made what they did even worse. That's what I'm saying. And because we're not There are times when like he He brought not like I'm not friends with with with him, but that's what I was accused of. And all this stuff. You know, I am. But when you are, but you we were all like that. That was actually his problem is that he didn't have any support because he thought, Hey, I hit the boxes. And unfortunately that really is not You know enough, And so he kind of was walking into the lion's den. And um, even though we did the right thing, I mean, I knew what was gonna happen and It's not our fault, but I think I'm just we We'd asked all the questions. I don't know how we can help them anymore. But But you don't question yourself. You did. Thank you. I had to bring that up. I'm sorry. No, I think it it needed needed to be said. It's unfortunate that there are people in this world who don't realize that it's possible to disagree and Not do it in a in a hateful manner. I obviously missed a lot. Well your disappointment, basically. Well I always say you attack the problem, not the person. I have so much more to learn. I guess I've got to go watch a video, but I'll end with this. I'm I'm I'm not the easiest person to, um Get by sometimes and I was not a particular fan of that application, but I thought this board and the applicant and staff did a great job and I probably was moved based on the data, the evidence and the facts, and we voted that way because So you can take that off yours And you can take that off yours because I stood right in the middle. And, uh, CASS, that vote with a very thoughtful Process. All right. We stand adjourned. I need to go watch a video, though. It's a couple of them. It's you will not.