Slow started here. Um it's this is the meeting of the, uh, Public art committee. Today is Wednesday, April 10th 2024 at 2 P.m. and we are in the City hall second floor Media room. Uh, Megan, can you call the roll, please? Mr Toth here. Miss Christopoulos is running late. She's on her way, right, Miss McGrath. Yeah. M, Arlo. Miss Taylor. Mister Jones has an excused absence. Ms Wood Here. Chair Jennings. Um The, um can I have a motion to approve the minutes from the march 13th? Uh, pack meeting Make it Nick. I have a second Me. OK, so Is there any discussion comments? Corrections? At the minute. No. OK all in favor of accepting the minutes as submitted. Please say I any opposed? OK, It's unanimous. Um I would like a, um, motion. To as a courtesy to, uh curator Felice to move our items 13 up on the agenda. Consideration to amend Pack ordinance to create a policy for proposals concerning the use of hybrid art, digital art and a I generated art. I'll make that motion, OK? Uh, can I get a second? OK, so Yeah, OK. All in favor. Sorry you're up. I'm Yeah. Um I, I guess. Explain to me. What would you come to the podium? Yeah, Yeah. We're not putting you on the spot here. I just wanted to open the discussion. Um So I guess. Should I use this too? Um so I was invited here by Joan to kind of discuss, um, a I art and digital art a little bit. Um so can you all kind of explain to me the qualms you're having right now? Because you're receiving sort of proposals right from a I artists. Quote unquote. Yes it did Identify yourself. Oh, sure. Thank you. Sarah Felice. I'm the curator at the LEPA Ratner. Museum of Art. Yeah, no problem. OK, well, the thing is that We recently had a proposal for a mural, which was accepted and, um You know, the concern was that the background of the mural was digital. And then it had three painted Figures on it. And you know, uh, I guess We were kind of wondering about the Um You know, not the validity of the art but the pricing on the art you know, and the amount of material reimbursement that was requested. Because it seemed to be You know, kind of high for you know, Uh, what was the, uh, final dimension to the painting? Oh, gosh. No, I don't. I can't remember. But it was like 22 by 28 or something like that, Right ? Right. So it was not, you know, It's not a Rubens. You know it was a it was relatively small painting. So um, did you have it? Diane I do have it at my office. OK because it's good. The city's gonna donate it to the family. It's uh, it's for, uh, Coach Rudy Royal, and it's the Mel is gonna be done as an applique and installed on the side of the wall at Dorset Park. So, um You know, we kind of have a policy of spending at about that 1000 and he Invoiced us for 2500. So I was just wondering, you know if there were any standards in the industry, you know for things like this so First and foremost, I'm not a I'm not an art appraiser so I can only give you my opinion as a curator, right? So, um And if it if it were me, and I was looking at an a I generated image, and I had an artist that say I was doing a workshop with and they were installing or doing something at the museum that required materials for reimbursement. Sure however, I know um and my husband is a software engineer. So we have these discussions at home almost every day, and we took a Let's see hour and a half walk yesterday, and we had this conversation about, um, I And how some jobs are going to be replaced in the near future, right? And um so part of me, is I in this house of, uh well, if you don't vibe with it, you're gonna die with it. Uh, which means you're not gonna be in. You know, you're not gonna be employable, um, that being said. Knowing what I know about A. I, um There's a certain subscription that you pay for as an artist or an individual to use the service. Um I have a friend who uses, uh, mid journey . Um you know, but those fees are relatively low. I. I mean, it's probably the same as if you were using Lightroom or Photoshop. It's about 10 to $20 a month. Um if this person is using a I in terms of and I, this is how I like to use it as a thinking tool. Um you plan something out or you're writing out how you wanna describe something to it, and it'll spit back something and you say Well, and you're still the artist, right? You're still the writer. So you're going in and kind of, you know, making your own adjustments, so the human element is still there. Um There a ma materials purchased and used for, said creation of that artwork. Um the cost of those materials would be relevant. Um So I guess. You know if you've determined that the art work itself is valid and should be submitted, or you know, acquired , however, you want to display it, Um, that's up to you know everyone here, however, you need to take into account the actual price of the materials. And then if you're paying any sort of honorarium fee, which is the time that that artist is taking to produce that work, Um, so it's a complicated answer, I suppose, um, it's Without knowing what that person spent time or, you know, finance wise into just the creation of the work. Uh I wouldn't know how to assess it unless I looked at it. Right Um Or I saw you know a breakdown of the numbers because I'm also a numbers person. I like to see the actual cost of things. Um you know, I in terms of moving in this direction. Um I think you know it's important to keep in mind that the human element still has to exist in the Artwork, a T least for me as a curator. I'm not going to take somebody who generates images and mid journey and display them in my museum. Um if I did, it would be a conversation about, um You know, creative licensing and things like that, Because, uh, a lot of these. A I programs actually take overarching, uh, aesthetic of art like Theres a Ms and Indiana's here. Who uh, you know if she were to create a mural or a piece, um the machines themselves can now analyze her aesthetic and replicate it. Um you know you can. We'll get to that point. Uh, where we can say Oh, we want it in this style or done in this way. Um, So it's a complicated question in an ever evolving answer. Um I don't know if that provides any insider. Yeah, OK and I. I assume that you know when we were talking about materials, I mean, it's just like any other art project we have. It would be reimbursement, You know of, uh, of course. And this this is quite different, so I I'm a photographer outside of being a curator and you know if I were to say work on a painting, um and I went out, and I wanted to Photograph some scenes and you know tarpon or Dunedin or wherever I'm gonna go photograph those things, and I'm going to use them as reference points for a landscape painting I might use. Um so this debate about? Um you know, technology and art is ever ongoing. Um so I mean, I think many of us in this room can remember when Photoshop and all of those programs first came on the scene, and everybody was like freaking out that you know, none of our images were gonna be real anymore. So I and I have to make the argument that, um People will always care about the human element when it comes to the creation of artwork , But it just matters of how much was spent. And if you are paying an honorarium to that artist of XYZ for the time for creation, so basically it's whatever is kind of negotiated with the artist. OK, because obviously you know, someone you know, like a Picasso would demand a higher fees than somebody like me, Right? Exactly Exactly, And that's and that's just it. So it's like, what do you pay? What does the artist feel is fair? Um I know for us. We never wanna insult our artists. I'm a big advocate for paying artists for their work. You know their time and their work, Um in doing what they do so it it really comes down to analyzing that part of it for you guys. Yeah I know it. Um there was recently the, um reaccreditation of the museum. And it kind of came up when the, uh some of the board of members are talking to the examiners. And I wasn't in that meeting so you can Yeah. No you can't. You can. But I You can just you. Yeah You know, digital art came up and you know, one of the examiners said definitely art. Yeah, so he had very strong feelings about it. As you said, there's this old, just like anything else. Really Well, it's important to remember digital art and a I are two different things. Yeah So there is the distinction, but, um yeah, it It really just depends on uh, you know, if you've already determined that this is a valid piece of artwork, and you know it should be where it's going to live, then it's just a matter of analyzing. Uh if you wanna break it down per hour, how many hours that person spent on creating it versus their artistic Value again. Picasso is gonna draw more money than US. Um you know, so it it. It's about time and it's about materials. So um, I know for an artist that we worked with this past summer. Um she spent X amount of materials. She gave us the receipts. We reimbursed her and paid her for her time. So yeah, that's pretty much the way we work. Nick Do you have any questions of Sarah? No I don't. It's something I've thought about, though. You know, I've I've the what I do is something from 100 years ago. It doesn't Hey, it's very valid. So it Yeah. Trust me. Yeah You could be doing wet plate Collodion. And I would talk to you for an hour about it, so yeah, yeah. Yeah Exactly. Yeah Yeah. Yeah, we've met. Yeah So that's That's something that that must come up to me. I guess I missed the first part of the conversation We're talking about. I Yeah, it was. Yeah as well. So yeah, it's they were just saying, you know that a piece. Um you can explain it, Joan. But yeah, that was submitted was partly digital and partly, you know, painting, So you know, we were wondering about pricing structure negotiation. I mean, it's still C, because I mean, I teach this stuff so but it you know, even if you know, my students are creating part of their images in a I they are still the conception is still theirs, but they are still and it's not that I There's a lot of work that goes into it. Um so just like, you know, they used to use stock images for backgrounds that weren't theirs. I consider a I more theirs because it's actually their ID and their creation. And you can you know you can keep building on a I constantly like it's not just I'm gonna This This piece is, you know done. I can say in this area. I want this in this area. I want that It is a creative process. It is nothing that is, you know, uh, someone else's like you. It's your you know, you have and you have to How to prompt. You have to know how to get what you want. And you so it is. It is more theirs than taking a stock image, You know, so And then there's the argument and it kind of like, and I always use photography as an example, because, um, you know, we had this debate in college of back and forth. Does documentary photography even exist? Um because it's never, uh, it's always somebody's perspective. It's not like you know, you can not like you know, you can be a It's a super complicated answer. Well, I mean, we're in one of those periods in art as we have been many, many times before where the landscape is changing. We're in a transition period right now. And so there's always gonna be those questions that arise as as you know, you know when You know, there was a urinal in the museum. Yeah, was that Right. Well, we deemed that that was at that point. But that was a point of questioning of the defining art. We're in that stage again. And so there's gonna be that we're witnessing. Essentially what is what is a new art movement, Um and in the history books. When we look back , it'll be written about probably differently than how we feel when we're experiencing it, Um So it's an interesting question, because, uh, I think lucky. Lucky for us, everybody. I think people in the arts are more safe when it comes to, uh, job security in the future, Because let me tell you, a software engineers and all the people that make the big bucks now are gonna be gone. So it's Yeah, it's interesting and scary , but also, um, learning how to navigate. It is the key to kind of surviving the change. Yeah, and that's why I stepped up to teaching it immediately. It came out because if we don't learn it and know how to navigate it, and still garbage in garbage out just like anything else like that, you know, I can see the difference from student to student or from you know that if you don't have a vision, you're still not gonna just because a I is doing it doesn't mean it's gonna be good. Yeah because it because the person who's creating it still has their creative signature. It's like, um, when I'm looking at photograph, like in in grad school, I, I could, you know, look at X amount of art and know who made it, Um, just in my class because you get used to the artistic sign. In the style of that person. Um Yeah, So I mean, it got this question goes on and on and on and on, but, um , you know if we take it back to photography and we talk about, you know, uh, generating digital images, and then I go in and I edit it. OK so there's the question of is that even me? Because I It's you know, my, uh, my editing skills is that even real anymore, you know, and that was the debate before and we're having this debate again. Um, but also you know, the Time that I put into going and photographing. So when I go shoot a wedding. And I'm actually cheap. So I'll just tell you my hourly rate when I go photograph a wedding. I'm 250 an hour. That sounds really scary. But that's because I'm there for 89 hours, and then I go home and I edit for probably six weeks. OK so the break the cost hourly breakdown for that artist is actually not. It's not as Yeah. It's not as huge as you think. So you really have to look at it that way. Um Hopefully the artist is honest. Especially being digital art. There's no way to prove that it was X amount of hours, but hopefully they're honest about you know their time that they put IN but no, no, not a T all. No no. Remember when photography was still a thing? That's completely gone. Yeah, it is. It's not happening faster just because it's happening on. Yeah hours and hours and hours. Head shots are the new one. You can upload Selfies to an online service, and it will create an A I composite of your face, uh, for LinkedIn, and you don't need to actually get a head shot. Yeah I mean, those parts of our career are scary. Those are scary. Yeah Yeah, but But, I, I think there a RE opportunities. You know, I Opportunities. I I've learned just as a curator, because I have to research this stuff all day long that I can't be afraid of The change. I just have to like Learn to deal with it and just go with it because it's gonna leave you behind. I tell everybody. I mean people in my department like, why are you teaching this all? Well, It's not going anywhere, So we have to learn how to use it, You know, and I've had, you know, it's so. Like I said, it's still part of. You know, I had a student. Come and tell me. Uh uh, describe a shot in detail to me that he wanted to take, and he comes back the next week with the most perfect rendition of that, and it looked pretty real and he's like, What do you think I go? I think it's a I he goes. How do you know? I said, you're not that good. And there there a RE ways that you can also train your brain, um, to recognize a I, but, uh, yeah. Just just being aware is part of it. Do I get it right every time? No I'm still a human being. It's still fools me, but I just try my best so 1/6 finger is often a giveaway. So I just find it it It is an interesting phase that we're going into, and I think it's a phase that a lot of people just don't understand. And as you were saying, I mean, I've seen Being in a furniture painting side of my friends that will actually have a cupboard that they've painted. And then they ask a I to do the backgrounds and things and it looks pretty amazing. They um they digitally stage So, um, we're kind of looking to switch our house right now. So we're looking around, Uh, Palm Harbor area and, uh, go ahead and look at Redfin. Do you know how many of those houses are virtually staged? They're not real. It's scary. I mean, I think a big part of it is scary because we can get duplicated just about but it also I think it's pretty handy. It is a I helping me describe something. You don't have to pay a furniture stager anymore. No terrifying at the same time. That's how I see it. It's exciting and terrifying. So in terms of the person quoting you, $2500 Um, I guess it depends on if you're paying an honorarium and how much the material breakdown is it just But it just sort of brought the conversation to the forefront because we actually got a submission. So you know there will be more There will be more. There'll be a lot more right. And you know, um, we just updated the ordinance, which the Public Art Ordinance, which is originally written in seven To include, uh, digital submission of images. You know, I mean, before you had to, either, you know, send in a print, You know, I mean, it was dreadfully outdated. You just updated it. Okay? Not just just but, you know, but that was I. I will just that was probably the sorry No, No, I'm sorry. No I OK as a millennial. I would have straight up. Not even submitted my artwork, right exactly like and I'm not even the young people anymore. I'm not. I'm not . So um, No, It's funny because I There was a college recently that I looked at a listing and that they're like photography professors were required to mail in a portfolio or give a disc and I just audibly cackled. And was like I don't even know where I would burn a CD anymore like I most of the new, uh, Tech. There's no hardware to play it. I won't. I won't call out which college it is OK. Don't That that's I'm not the department head, so I can't. I'm not asking for the portfolio. I didn't say I didn't say I didn't say what it was so anyway, as the technology just kind of keeps barreling forward, you know, uh, I, I must have had the 18,000 jobs in my life, and one of them was working for a very cutting edge, a cardiothoracic surgeon. He was the first person to implant a pacemaker in an infant. And he believed in putting everything on paper. And he said that the library of Congress contains. I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of pages of information that are totally inaccessible because they're on reel to reel tapes. And they simply don't have the hardware. To retrieve it. You know, that's why you know a lot of people will, you know, digitize old photographs? You know it. It's You know, it's just not that it's a It's important. Yeah it's a it's it becomes an accessibility issue at a certain point. So Katie, you have any questions? Thank you, Sarah. You're explanation was great. I know you couldn't pinpoint the answer because it was so technical, but I'm glad to learn that the difference between a I and digital art and I'm also glad to learn from Bieber. That there. Uh the conception still comes from the artist who's producing that so I did learn something today. Thank you. Ok, Well, thank you for coming. No problem. One question. Sure. Oh, so is there. Um Are there issues with copyright, and what's considered an original, You know, with the with the multimedia with Copyright, I would say. I'm apprehensive to say no, I I'm saying no, In my own knowledge today this hour this minute. Uh because it's ever evolving. That being said, like I mentioned, Um I can go copy Elizabeth's aesthetic and put it into the computer, and it'll give me an original of hers, right? Not really, but sort of it it you understand what I'm saying? So, um In terms of Copyright and reproducing it. Technically right now, no. Um but that's because the person who is creating the A, I generated image is still technically creating it, but the computer is spitting out. The Movement, the style of the art that that person wants, But is it technically compiling data from previous sources? Yes because that's all a I can do right now is to take the information that we've given it. And spit something out at us. Right. It's not, um It. It doesn't have independent thought that we've created it. So, um Apprehensive. No. Would be that. I mean, that is, but I think, but but yeah, but that's that's gonna change. So battles are happening. Yeah, so I would I would put a finger on that pulse and just stay on it. Because today I don't have that clear answer for you because it might change with every when we go ahead and do a public art, a project with the city. We have a contract that the artist has to sign and has to be signed off by the border of commissioners. Everybody else But there Is a section in there about copyright, so I'm just wondering where that's gonna go in the future. Yeah And I mean, and it also really depends on the image. So if you wanna, and I'll just call this out completely because it's um I at least a few people in this room know, know what I'm talking about. So if you take like Louis Marco who, um, is a local artist lives in Saint Pete, and he does a I, um you know, he's he uses a I as part of his work. Uh, so he's on view. Now, at the imagine Museum. Um he's been at the Libra Ratner Museum. So you know, I, I can speak to this. Uh he's as soon as I saw his work, I said. Are you influenced by Alex Grey? And then I said, Do you also use a I cause I can read it like I just I just see it immediately. Right Um does he have work that I would consider copyright infringement on Alex Gray? No. Um Is it similar enough that I can read it and see it for what it is? Yes but that also gets into Alex Grey uses a lot of sacred geometry, and you can't really copyright sacred geometry figures. But, um I do You see what I'm saying? Like I it it? It depends. Um If so, Here's a good case in point, And this is almost not even a I, but, um, I was one of the judges for Gasparilla this year and, uh, one of the selection judges, So I was less important, but, um , that being said there were artists in my section that I was reviewing Actively who, um Made pieces that were so similar to other art like famous artists that I didn't pull their pieces for awards because I felt that they were just riffing off someone. They weren't It wasn't you know, it was their artwork, but it was like Xeroxing. The Mona Lisa and like just putting something out, it was just I don't know I It's hard to explain, but it was just like this. Oh, yeah, That's Alfonse Musha or what? Whoever you know it's not It's not really you and I wanna see you. Um so if it if it gets to that territory, you know, and you can probably use an A I program to tell you that you can take it. You can take the image and put it back in and say you know what art movement? Is this? What influences or, you know, draw from it. Um so if you're afraid that people are submitting things that are copyright infringement Well, you can take the weapon and use it back against them. Yeah Yeah. Yeah So is great. Thanks Sarah. No problem. I'm probably gonna hang out because I want to hear Elizabeth. Ok, Great. Thank you so much. You're welcome. OK um all business Riverside Field Mural Project. I think we've gotten nothing but positive feedback. Um On that it looks doesn't look great. It doesn't rare. I think everybody, so I think, um Now has Jonathan. I know he has He been paid, Can we ? He's been OK. So I guess we can close the books on this one, OK? We can take that off the agenda for next time, OK, the Black Heritage Project update and signage. OK if you look through your handouts Mm. First one is an email from from OK, Um, if you go to This one. It was really meant to be on on one sheet. Because I believe that the, uh, sign is more is more like 8.5 by 14 rather than 8.5 by 11. Of the initiative of the Tarpon Springs Public Art Committee should be part of You know the thing But, um This was my suggestion because the sign is extremely small. OK? If you look, there's another page that has two paragraphs. One is a sponge dock site, and the other is the Union Academy site. And To go even further back. There's a page that's basically black and red. And that was a submission. That was a combination of Something I had done. Originally Graham had done and it was They were both edited by Tina Buka Wallis for historic accuracy. But you know, none of these texts. I think, in my humble opinion are appropriate for a sign. I don't think any of our art pieces have anything that comes close to being this worthy. So I thought the most effective way to do it was to just cut to the chase. And do this with a QR code. That people could follow for more information that we could put on the website that would incorporate all of this other wordage, right? OK? OK? Can't see that. Yeah, but it would be You know, the I see. It would be like this basically all on OK? And then the QR code will take you to the detailed Description of the sculpture, right? OK, um Can we, Nick? How do you feel about the Signage choices. So I mean, this is Well, this is the actual sign that this is this is what we have to decide. This is what I propose for the annuals for the actual sign. Which people can see from the road that you know it just kind of QR code and information right? So people could you know if they were interested in learning more about the piece and the history and the background, they could go to the QR code and get more detailed wordage like this. As opposed to doing a plaque. Is that what you're well, The thing is Steven. There's already a sign there, right, OK, and I believe it's something like 8.5 by 14. This is an example of one. OK, right, all right, but To me a sign like that, you know, even on top of it. It's not gonna be that easy to read. You from close up or from a distance distance. Yeah Yeah, I. I hadn't really had thought about it as a distance. I thought about the art drawing people towards it. Um And then, just to give you a little bit of background on this, because I You haven't seen this one up. This is actually for the sponge docks, What I did because of efficiency and the production of the of the resin. I had to group everything together. Otherwise perhaps six weeks, delays and even thousands of dollars just to make separate orders, So I put the wayfinding stuff in there and I put the signage. I worked. A lot of work effort on this to kind of boil it down. And I know there's a little debate about in the last meeting. Some of it the language deliberately is a little open ended because I know there's the QR code, and there are some different interpretations like there's some different people who will fit into the narrative. So I tried to do it that way. Like so when you say, say, Like, For instance, black and bohemian , I don't mean their specifically both that necessarily they could be. You could read it as if you were African American heritage if you're Bahamian, or if you're both, and then, um, And one of the signs. I think it's for this for this one, actually, I Kind of mention the post Civil War period. Not to because we don't have evidence of somebody deliberately coming down, but we know that people were freed. They probably came so it's quite possible we could have spongers. So I left that open and part of that actually came from listening to Tina's interviews recorded of, um, one of the older spongers. I couldn't get him and his wife they were, you know, they're up in Port Richie. I wanted to get to I couldn't get to him. But, um I didn't think of his name, but anyway, in that interview Uh oh. I think it was. I think it was Dorset who mentioned this. He was talking about the earliest earliest days and if in that period, so I just so there's a little bit of wiggle room, but I knew that the idea is that we could actually always go for more detail with the QR code in which you go right down the lower corner. If we decide to use these signs, you know, But that one that one's for the docks. That one. Yeah, there's two for the docks. And then there's two. It's already at the other one, I guess just in terms of basic signage if you look at the other signage on other public art pieces there They're pretty much more like this. You know, basically just You know the title, the artist the installation date. You know, and you know With some kind of small text, but this text just Started getting out of hand. I mean, Tina's based her red ink practically looks like a doctoral thesis. So you know, I was I was struggling with this for, you know. Few weeks trying to figure out how to You know, a ensure the accuracy and condense it down into some sort of manageable form for a sign. So you know what you have. There is fine, but I think, um Is it accurate? Well that's the thing you know. That's why there's no question as to the accuracy of this, and at least we can get a sign of that. That's what I was gonna say. Maybe this is a good option. Good route to go, and then we can because it's quite lengthy. Which I think I think Tina condensed it to this for us, Um Yeah, I did See this. This was her corrections. But then she she offered a you know, a new, uh, thing That was more accurate because I would not want to put something up. That was not accurate, So it would have probably been a good idea to run it by Tina before it got printed onto that because she's the only one that's done the extensive, you know, actual research to, you know, validate those things. I don't mind the idea of having some more information in a sign like that, And then just that because I think this is a different kind of project, And so I think having But but I would not put something on there unless it's historically accurate. Um or as accurate as it can be, Um, because then you're confusing. You know, all kinds of, you know , people in communities and tourists and everybody that you know, so But I don't think that I mean, I know this is what we traditionally do is just put something simple on there. But because I think the complexity of this project um I think it warrants more description. And not every you know. Yes Most people can use the QR code. Um not everybody will And not everybody can So But I would like to see that vetted for accuracy before it. Something was installed. And if that means having to reprint that, and I know you went through the trouble and expensive printing that, But I don't think that it's OK to put something up there. That's not correct. Um but I do think that it This type of project warrants more information, So I don't mind a historical plaque on there. As compared to some of the other things that we've done. Well, see, I was thinking of this just in terms of putting something up. Like in the meantime, OK? I thought you meant like, no, No, because I mean this right now There's nothing there except a frame, So that really looks to get something on the, um well, the two signs are up over at Union Academy on opposite ends. Yeah. Yeah Those are those are up so they could be read again. One of those one of the comments I made had to do with actually the specific language of black and bohemian deliberately being open because I know there's different interpretations. So um , And then again, I drew from a lot of Tina's, uh, interviews. That was very helpful. But you know, she could proofread. Ideally it it works. You could just because you haven't seen the language necessarily for this so I can send it to you all you can look at it. Hopefully it's good. And then we're good to go. But um, But if not, we could tweak it. You know, I think yeah, I think that's important to send that out and You know you're you're, you know, have a communication with Tina as well. I would send it to her and ask her. Actually Tina was help. She caught me. I think she said she might have been in Greece. I think when she called me or whatever. But or she saw Well, anyway, I was able to use some of her feedback to last minute, tweak the graphics on the wayfinding piece and had again it had to do with this black and Bahamian thing, and she was saying about sort of like in essentially the baseline kind of being African American. So what I did with the graphic was I actually Over the bohemian Greek flags, but actually put a backdrop so that it looks like you'll see it because it's actually going up now. I took a break from installing the way finding piece today. Um it has a It has essentially an American flag colors and then the two. So I got that in last minute to kind of address that graphically, um So I guess I you know We're we're we're still struggling with the art versus history. Yeah you know, and at the end of the day it is a sculpture, you know, and I agree wholeheartedly. With BBA Whatever historical information is coupled to it, it has to be accurate, right? But, you know You know a lot of people drive by there. They they don't even know what it is. That's why I thought that this would at least You know, to some extent, answer that question. And you know, get something up. That's some sort of explanation. You know. I mean, I think a simple sign is also warranted. And I don't mind the idea of the QR code. You know, I think you know if we can, if there's a separate place on the piece or to install something with more information, I think that's also you know, um So I don't know if we can't do both. Well, Yeah, No, That's yeah. But, uh, you know, Uh, I don't see anything. You know negative about doing something like this. No, I think the more the like I said, there's a lot of To talk about around this piece. So Yeah, II. I think in a way more is better, definitely whether it's QR code or whether it's like additional. Maybe something goes on the opposite side of that sign and put in so that you got a two sided thing. I. I guess my weird and checkered background I did a lot of, you know, signage type projects. And you know, just like the, uh, you know, the gateway signage for the For the city that was designed by the Public Art committee. I mean, it was tweaked by everybody and their uncle, but basically, you know, things have to be straightforward. You know if people are driving by or moving past something You know, you've gotta be. It's like a billboard. You have to be able. It has to be striking enough to send a message across. And then somebody says, Oh, you know, I wanna find out more about this. Then we start digging into the rest of the background information we have, but you know, between You know, Uh I mean, Tina is an academic. So you know, we're gonna get the most and probably the most complex and detailed information with Tina. But you know, do you wanna stand by the side of the road and read all of that? May you know, maybe best Maybe it's a quote but again leading towards the QR code for you know, Hopefully people get that interested that they wanna know more, you know, and, yeah, I think it's better idea to give them the option of You know, pursuing more information, you know? S. I'm sure you find it too with the you know the displays you have at the museum. You know, there's usually just the title of the work, the artist and usually a date or you know something, possibly a location if it's pertinent. But if they want to find out more about the work Then they can do that, you know, but you don't go to a museum and see You know, pages and pages and pages and pages of reference material. Mhm. You do see an artist statement? If it's a if it's a more you know, um Right, so all right. But there's a curatorial text. Um which you know they wanna and you have to put as much as Sit comfortably on the wall. But it's too much. It's not comfort. Kind of We don't half way and do like a QR code. Right if it's Right? And I know when Elizabeth did the mural and the Cultural Center, we just had a key to all the elements. Yeah, Legend of, uh, you know what, all the figures in the animals and everything elsewhere. Interesting. Thought also, Yeah. Realistically, I hate saying this, but most people don No, you're right. No, it's true. I know they complain. Yeah, well, but you know, you could see them their eyes glazing over, you know, And that's true, too. So You know? So we start with this and then we work on that. Yeah, This is kind of a kiss. Mhm So at least there's a at least there's something there so identifiable, right? We wanna know everything there is to know about art, but Tom, Dick or Harry down the street who didn't know We Yeah. Right? Yeah You know, uh, I remember taking my kids to the, uh, Guggenheim in the city and They were like I could have done that. You know it was about every time but, uh, label in detail in full Right? So Yeah, I think I think this is almost gotten a little out of hand. It's big. It's taken on a life of its own, and it's becoming more and more complex. But I You know, um So what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna ask for a motion to adopt the simpler signage for the Oh, we need to get them. They did You have any opinion on this? I'm on the signage. OK, let me just start from the beginning. So what started? What started? All of this was because, um, we found that there was an error on the plaque. That's how this all started, right? Well, there was no plaque. That's why with this, this wordage was proposed, and we've been hashing it and hashing it and hashing it And, you know, uh, OK, so there is no so there is no plaque there at the moment, I thought there was no citizen is academy. There is there's two and that's where but I mean, but this is that's where all of this originated was. Then there was the wording wasn't correct as it should be. But if I look at what Tina has proposed, it's long, and I think it's too long for something like that. She did recond it and write new ones. Um But yeah may be too long. Right. So I, I guess what I'm saying is that this is becoming more and more complicated and detailed and You know? Speaking to Sarah's point, as everybody going to actually sit down and read all of this. That's what I'm saying. I think that is too long for what we want. That should just be that they can. Somebody wanted to look at a QR code that could go in and read all of that. I think would be the Like, uh, I think we Right? So Whatever the size of the sign is. Yeah. She's also T, I believe have to do that. But I mean You know, whatever the AD a compliance standard size. Mhm. When in doubt, default to 88 compliance right? Very good point. Very good. Thank you. Um And I understand Tina is writing a definitive book. So I mean, there's no reason why, When you go on a QR code, there can't be resources. They're like, if you wanna know more. I mean, it is fascinating. I mean, and not to digress too much. But that whole thing about the civil war and just the timing of it, And you and the whole Andrew Jackson thing and the purging, you know, people Um Free people of color et cetera were driven out of Florida as you know, by 1821. Some of them end up in the Bahamas, so there's an interesting possible loop that people could have. Can't go in and come back. There's a lot of interesting history, which would be great to know I don't I just I can infer it. I don't know what specifically, but you know. As you could say, I mean of a fascinating history already evolving into a full blown book. So you know this is, you know really, just, you know, scratching the surface, but, um You know, uh, I guess Uh but, Katie, do you have any comments about the well, I would like to ask Steven A couple of questions on the signage. Um I know you're talking about specifically the signage that going on that one thing I'm asking more about, Um, on the wayfinding is that is that piece of art that's on art of Martin Luther King and Gross Avenue gonna be on the way finding sign? Um I think I do refer. I think I do refer to that somewhere. I'm pretty sure I refer I There's a There's two of these signs. I have to go and look at the, uh I left in the car, but I think, I. I tried to do that because they were supposed to be linked. They you want people to kind of. Yeah I'll confirm that. But yeah, I think I tried to do that. Because I wanted people I want people to find, you know, Know that there's another one. And, of course, the title. It literally is broken up onward together as a dock forward and upward is that when it's in the whole title of the of the pieces on, you know, forward upward and onward, so that's definitely an intent. Yeah. Well. I didn't hear you. Sarah. I'm sorry. Absolutely um, On the end of the paragraphs where the hyphens are, I would just eliminate Mhm. Oh, G. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. I'm kind of compulsive about that. But No, no, no, no, but it's a point. Well taken. My other question. Steven was, um The last time you weren't here, so now that you're here, I can ask you directly on the, um signs because when people go down there and look at that A lot of people are asking What is it? I mean, what? What is it? What does it stand for? If they just reading that sign? A lot of people are not gonna have a phone because a lot of like the union academy. Those kids come out of there in the daytime, and they might walk around there. They're used to reading so, yeah , Some people do read and they do when they walk around and exercising because that's an active community when it come down to walking riding a bike, So when people stop by there, I was gonna ask you. Is there any way that you can put a caption on the signs? Maybe not. Love them, but some of the people that's more pertinent, uh, like the fishing boats. That's the boats that you have a picture of . Is this a picture of a boat to a lot of people? It has no meaning. So not everybody gonna be able to do a cure and a cold, Not a all communities work with that. So we kind of working in the realm of the community that you have that you utilize. So I was asking Is there a way that you can put a caption on various pictures? On there. Say who these people are. Where do they? Well Well, Actually, the easiest solution might be what we did for Elizabeth. You create a key and you could print it out and leave it at the Union academy, Right? Actually you're You're getting close to what I was thinking is you can't You can't literally physically alter the, uh, artwork itself. But for instance, I did a lot of work effort on power PowerPoint, which hopefully will you know it's It'll get augmented based on what's gonna happen next with the next piece is getting installed, but, um A lot of the info. I wanted people to sort of see. Like, say where. OK, What are those images mean? Where did I get them from? There's a lot of layers of meaning, and so that's part of the artistic, the process and also the actual little mature like you know, the, um The history, so there's no no no problem with putting those notes together so that like it could be a handout. For instance, with kids like that a lot of times you'll do like programming or something where, you know the kids are like this. Like their community. This is a little history tour of your community. Something to leave with Union Academy. So if they wanna, you know it's right there on their site. If they, uh, they wanna, um, use it as a teaching tool or something like that. Or they wanna You know, some of those kids are related. I'm sure you know, like some of the adults that came by so That's the kind of thing can be done a lot more sense than trying to put stickers all over the place. You can't really You can't really do that easily. Yeah So you know, we can maybe have get to work on some kind of, uh, You know, brochure or something? Will you be able to talk to David? Mr Archie to see if you can work with him on putting something down there so people can find where to go get it or if you have a little Dropbox right there where you can pick up a brochure right there next to the art piece, so well, I think I think I would start with, uh, start with reviewing the PowerPoint and the specific notes in terms of describing where each image who it is why it's there. Um and then we could go. I can feed that to Diane. You know? Then we could craft something, you know, basically And being that I'm saying that I'm gonna you know, at the library like, you know, Um um, when I was making the whole thing I had a whole elaborate system for labeling which side it was, there were six sides in it. So for instance, there's a gate. The gate actually is pretty much dedicated to Rose cemetery. So being that I'm saying that I'm just thinking, um, it was, um she's not here today. Dawn She made a brochure so At that site. If you had a little plastic box that those brochures can be in, that's covered, so it won't get wet. So when people standing there, at least they got something to pull out and they can read it. Take it with them or something. Yeah, that's what we were talking about. So yeah, the same idea. Yeah You can find it right on those boards. Just like I've done in the sign probably would work out. Fine Yeah, It's not a bad idea at all. Yeah, yeah. Not one outside of the heritage museum that we use, you know, kind of thing, Whatever. Whatever we do signage wise at all the sites, the Wayfair the way wayfinding and then the two sites I think we need before we get anything printed. We need to make sure it's signed off on as accurate before anything is printed, you know? Well this is the way to go the way it's the way it is set. You know, on the sign the way you know it's justified or whatever you know we got. We've gotta make sure that it's all sign off. You know by the Public Art Committee Latina or whoever is going to how many people are gonna review it, because that's what we want to make sure we do before we start putting sign. Everywhere you know, kind of thing. And then if we use the QR code, that's fine. That can be you know, we can incorporate whatever handouts we need to for this whole exhibition, you know, kind of thing, but it it's got we gotta be able to review it first. So that's why it's like I don't want you to print stuff anymore. Steven without getting giving us the, um the verbiage and let it you know us. Bet it, you know, kind of thing, so because I don't want you to waste your time or your money doing that, you know, kind of thing That's just My point. But I, I guess where I wanna go with this now is, um I'd like to get, um a motion in a second to you know. To a sign like this. We could Discuss the exact wording. But uh you know, a simple sign like this for the Union Academy Sculpture. Get a comment. Just a minute, Juliana. Do I have a motion? To create the basic basically, to just have a sign. I'll make a motion. OK, second one second. OK now we can have a discussion about the wording. Next. You Did you want to comment about the Well, we're voting now to do this to have this something simple for now. Yes there and then QR code something where they can go and find out lots more information. I think that's a you know, that's a Prudent way to go ahead and do that. I don't really see a downside. Fever and I think I really like the idea. Um of the, uh, you know, pamphlet or something. Something which may be even better than a wordy sign because it you know that there's only so much that can fit on that. And so I think you know, Katie's idea of, you know, maybe making a little pamphlet of some sort to have alongside that, for those who maybe don't want to go into the QR code. Uh, situation. Um it's something right there to pick up. I think that's a great solution to, you know, not necessarily having because I do think Information is important on this. Um but, you know, maybe a sign like that is too much and not enough at the same time, Right? Right right. Yeah No, I mean, it's a very that's a great , you know, solution for that, OK, Sonya? Yeah. No, I'm There was a I agree with Beaver. OK so , uh, all in favor of the installation of a simple sign at the, uh, Union Academy. J I any objections? OK so you and I will get together. Uh, about this, Uh , there might be a possibility of even doing it in house. Doesn't the city have a sign making machine? Yeah it depends. Mhm. Yeah, we can At least try that first. OK? Um OK, so I guess we'll just Not go into the revived right be revised drafts until we can get some more information from Tina and You know, get a final finale from her. Um OK, moving along, Uh, virtual tour guide and QR codes. Dawn is absent. Uh, one more question for Steven. When do you project that? The, um B is going to be completed. OK, So, um, today the Wayfinding Pace is going and I took a break from actually installing it, So I'm going back down to finish that component. The uh, The larger sculpture has two towers. They've got four sides. Three of those sides are, uh, constructed the last final sea. Is basically gonna be, um Couple pieces are cut between the tonight tomorrow morning. Um and that point I break it all down, and I start the process of like, uh, all the finishing all the surfaces. Basically you go over all the welds, see if you want to reinforce anything clean up the whole thing. So it's getting ready to paint. And then then the final assembly starts. So that's kind of where we are with that, so it's kind of like it can be very frustrating as an artist. And of course, you know for somebody on the receiving end. They like all this information and trying to get make sure it's accurate and make you're not making mistakes because you can't with the materials and all that stuff, But it's now kind of coming together, so I foresee those towers being finalized in the next few days. Uh, realistically , next week, I'm gonna probably be finagling that whole top component of it. Those pieces are all cut, but I've got to fit them and stuff like that, and so by and by the end of the month is my goal. Get this thing done and installed so Basically next week. I think it's gonna be just the top and some finishing work. And then I'm gonna basically bring this. So uh, looking at that last week of the month right now is the window now to actually install. That's what I think is realistic, You know, um , whether it has been behaving pretty good. What's that? I don't wanna see you going into the heat again. Yeah, the weekend. I mean, the weather has actually been pretty good. And, um, I've been able to Dodge that I had a you know, Uh, Mr Heisman ? I think it was He right? Um mentioned the services. I went over the edges of all the union academy there, but I did that in the rain, So I didn't I basically trying to really juggle the schedule tomorrow again. I'm just fortunate I'll be able to at a stage where I can take all that stuff undercover to do all that finishing work. The ring won't slow me down at all. And then it'll come back out and goes back on to, um Platform. Essentially, it's built. It's all You know it's a template essentially multiple, multiple templates, and it was good. I went out there to take to dust, the in anchoring system and everything cause it sets up quickly. So I gotta be pretty accurate when a drill and then get the thing ready to anchor. Well it's good to know there's an end in sight. Yep OK, so the next thing we have to struggle with is all of this text. OK let's see the Dorset Park. What's uh, with Diane? What's the completion? If you could just wait a minute, Juliana, OK? I had a question for Steven. Is he leaving? No, no, nothing. OK, I'll wait. Oh, for Steven! Steven Yours sculpture that you have at the community can. What is the Aim of it. Um, it's um upward and forward together because people were so that but there was asking me what is it? Cause they don't even understand. The concept of it. So on pure code, is there gonna be something from you explaining thoughts? Putting that together. If it's appropriate, Yeah. You know why I chose that title or something? Oh, well, yeah, I know, but they don't know. Sure Yeah. Yeah, that's appropriate to put in that. Can you give us an update on Dorset Park? Oh, well, um the Artists dropped off the painting. And, um, we are Related to put, um the mural up on Friday. Whatever that date is the 26th. Of um April and, um then the, UM, celebration at Dorset Park is scheduled for the next day. The 27th. So, um, they want to, um Unveil it the mural on that day, so that's why we're putting it up at the last minute. I did get a color proof of a portion of the, um Of what they're gonna be putting on the wall and it looks really good. It's nice and bright, Very colorful. So um, yeah, there's the, um speed pro is ready to go on. We'll just have to watch the You know the, um the weather weather that week and then public works is gonna come along and, uh, Cover it so that on the 27th it can be actually unveiled. That'll be nice. OK, great. OK illuminated art boxes. Will Graham's not here, but I think it's probably you know, I think we discussed it last time with the timetable. Uh, sponges and dreams proposal from the Follis. Um You know, I don't know whether you all had a chance to look at the proposal. Uh, but Um I'd like a motion to accept the proposal. I did look at it. I I'll motion it because I really I think the work is really nice. OK, can I get a second? Thank you. OK, now we can have a discussion. OK, folks. Um OK? And Did everybody have a chance to, uh, read the materials and see what she's trying to do. You know, I. I had a hard time accessing, so I never I. I access it online and I looked at. I'm just looking forward here in front of me. So right. Where's it in the pan? I gotta find it again. Yeah. I did look at it online, which, by the way, I love that new system. Oh, I think you're the only one. I think you're all by yourself. That's because it's very I find it very, uh, cumbersome on the technology one. I'm the one who likes technology. So that's why I love technology, but I just found this a little cumbersome one. We did not print every single page of that proposal. But you will see some of the pertinent ones. You know for what you need to consider you Look at it online. It's like 52 pages, which is why I didn't print Yeah, I'm not saying I read all of them. Well, I think I think we should go. Go back to. There's a page with the, um, Here it is. I found it with the budget. Yeah And, uh, if you'll notice that $16,000 of it is transportation and accommodations from Greece to Florida. I don't think we've ever come close to paying anything, much less anything that expensive to bring. An artist in the other issue is where she's proposing it be housed. I do not have any room at the Heritage Museum. So you know she's proposing that as the site, but that's that's what I was looking at is that I didn't think the sites were approved and it was also It's so large. I mean, It just would not be able to be accommodated there even though the ceiling is really high, but they're I just I couldn't see with the windows and everything. How that could even Be installed. I agree with you. I thought the site was not really workable for the type of work that it is. Is there? Uh Nick, do you have any other? You know, I, I really need to look this over before I can formulate an opinion in all the Well, I think the very fact that, uh You know, it really doesn't have a place to go is, Uh probably, uh, a big problem, plus the cost is really excessive. Um And as I said, we really don't have a tradition for You know, reimbursing people for travel from from Greece and putting them up. $16,000 is quite a bit of money, and, uh But, um My personal feelings is to take a pass on it, but, uh, I'd like other people's Opinions. Yeah. You wanna look over it first before you I mean, Yeah, if you have had a chance to be more like to hear what you have to say about it, I'd like you know, again and kind of going into this blind. I'm not really sure. What I'm looking at and the context of it. Where's the budget page on this? It's on the back of one of the It's on the back. It's on the reverse. OK, I guess it's right before resume on the bottom of the page page, I, I think I've misplaced some of the pages here, um Here. So that way it's easier for me. That guy I got on the back of this one. This is the project and the compensation is on the back of that page. Mhm. Um So Can I speak now? Or are you done ? It's kind of deferred kind of deferred. OK, Uh, so I mean, I think the work Is Um, worthy of consideration. Um and But The placement, I think would be important to find something that would fit that because I don't think the proposed places are appropriate at all. Um I think that the budget also needs to be tweaked. Um I do frequently go back and forth to Greece and it while It has the prices have gone up. It does not need to be $3000 for a ticket. We don't need to fly first class. I mean, I think you know that they have gone up to about maybe 1700 or, you know, depending on the time of year, um so I think a combination you know, I think All of those things are a little bit. Uh you know, inflated inflated. Thank you for the word. So I. I think that you know, some of these costs might have to be reconsidered. Um If we were to move forward or something, but I think first and foremost An appropriate site would have to be, um You know, uh, found that would work with something like this. Um, but I do. I do really enjoy the work and I think that it is. You know , it does have the merit and I think it you know, it would be interesting to bring work over. But At this stage with this, you know, particular budget and a particular sites that have been listed. I don't think that works. So uh,■ I don't know that I would want to completely Throw her out of the you know, but I may. I don't know if there's a way to revisit this when there's something more appropriate, um, found, uh, on the table, or, you know alternative sites, Possibly . I don't know. It's a modified project that would work within the sites that she's froze because it is. It's too. It's too large and too, you know, um, to really work in those areas. Um I don't know the new city building that you know all the clerks saw the clerk's office. Nobody would really see it. I think of merit. I mean, it's I just went to the new, uh, innovation hub at SC, which is not a city property, but it's a incredible like space, which My Right, but again, you know, so Yeah, I at the current state. I think that, um It's not gonna work where she wants, where she thinks it might work, and, uh, the budget, I think is a little inflated, but I do like the work. I'm kind of in the same camp, but, uh, you know, as you said, everything seems a bit inflated and to me the kind of the, uh The harshest criticism is the fact that simply has no place to go. You know, um Anyway. Uh, Sonia. Honestly I. I know too little about this. It's just my immediate first thought is that if we are going Been this kind of money we want to promote. I don't know people in our area. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm just putting it out there. Yeah you know, and again. Look at this right again. It's an unsolicited, unsolicited project. Katie you I would have to study it more and probably say revisit it. OK, So, um But anyway, um All in favor of going forward with the projects. A. I Um, anybody else who's you know an an anybody say nay to the project. And it's yes OK, so the motion doesn't carry, so it's Or Diane, if you could communicate with her and Perhaps tell her You know what the issues are, and, uh, I'd be happy to reach Look at something. Right. OK, so that's uh OK, the sponge choker project, OK? All right. That would be me. Well if you don't mind if I jump in here, OK? I don't know whether I stole it from this memo was already handouts. Was it? The memo was in everybody's hand. I believe it's the last. It's the last page. And um, it stated April 5th from Mark Lius and its address to Diane and myself. And uh, I'm gonna do a Mayor co book because this was my fault. I should have known better. Um The thing is when anybody brings a, um Uh, an outside organization or group brings a project to the Public Art Committee. The first thing I have to do is fill out a special form, and, uh, that consists of You know, location budget all of this type of thing. It then has to be go before the board of commissioners to be approved. And this was never done. And if you look at the at the memo, there needs to be a discussion about, uh, the process of major art projects that are not budgeted and approved. So We can't go forward with this until that's done. So, um We also have another project on the on the agenda. The Mary Safford project and that will also have to follow the same procedure. So, um You know, the application is on the Tarpon Arts website. You know, it will have to be completed and brought for the you know, back to the pack. And then at some point we have to determine whether or not it's, uh, fits the budget and you know, we have to get an estimate of you know what each project would cost and then bring both of them before the, um The board of Commissioners for approval. And the thing is that it should probably be done at the annual report, which this year is going to be at the board of Commissioners meeting on, uh, the regular meeting on May 28th. So that's where all proposed projects have been, Uh, you know, done in the past, so Uh, we're just gonna I. I really should have known better because we've always done that. You know, we did it with the Black Heritage Project. And Diane. Sure, so basically. What needs to happen? It's like for The, um Sponge cooker project, for instance, and the Mary Stafford one. If You decide that you want a bronze statue or a mural or whatever, so you'd have to go research. Those artists, you know, just like, for instance, like a sculptor, for instance, that does bronze statues go and find several of those say and then contact them and say, This is what we're envisioning doing. Can you give us an estimate? On what? That type of a lifelike statue would cost and then get several different. You know, um, quotes from different, You know, it's especially you need to also look at these sculptors, too, because some of them Are more abstract than others than you know, if you really want a very realism like you know, when be and I were talking. It was like about like, if you want somebody that looks like a Greek person, you can't go ahead and solicit an abstract type Sculptor for that, And you know if you want somebody that's doing a realism like Mary S. Same thing if you want to really depict her image, you've got to really kind of research. Those sculptors that have that Talent that can capture that, so you just can't go and get random ones that have you have to kind of be specific on what you're really looking for. Um so that would be the same thing with like a mural. Um you know, it's like there's many muralists. There's all kinds of different artists, so you'd have to go and kind of research what that would cost Because then we've got to put it into the budget. So when we go to the board of commissioners, you know, with all the information these are the three sculptors we like. You know, this is the quotes that they gave us. You know, Uh, we prefer this one, You know, kind of and you know that sort of thing, so they have to have all that information and I can send all of you in an email the form that I sent to artists, you know, that are gonna be proposing. Um, you know, an unsolicited, uh, project for us so that you can see what we need, you know? Thing but yeah, I was and I apologize, too. I was remiss and you know the particular procedures, you know, until Mark reminded me of you know that this is the process that you have to go through for these, You know projects So you know, it's been such a long time because Stevens project was so long ago that we initiated it, you know, and we've been working on it for such a long period of time that we forget the procedure and that the way that things have to be done with the city, you know, so I just wanted to kind of clarify that. You know, if you do have a project in mind the steps you have to take so that we can Bring it before the public Art Committee bring it before the board of commissioners so And if you have questions, just, you know, let me know on location was the other thing and location is a big one is the big thing. That one I spoke with mark about this to try to see what you know where we, you know. I mean that in like you to talk. I'll go right ahead. So you know. Yeah. No, no, I was just gonna recognize so far. Um so, I. I apologize for my absence last time, but, you know, Yeah. Yeah. Granddaughter happened. No so you Which is why it was all so late today, So yeah. Yeah. Life is, you know, yes, little different. So I'm working on it. Um so I apologize for my you know, absence, but I didn't even know what time or day it was. I hear you at the time, So, um, But, um, I have in the meantime, you know, done a little bit of like work. I have, you know, uh, Not, you know. Gotten a hold of everyone you know to, you know, kind of that, Uh, Katie has suggested. I mean, I have a couple of people in my own, or at least, you know, Tina, definitely. I want to work on our committee. Um, because of her knowledge as well. As what? I have not had the time to do that yet. My and that's the other thing I was gonna propose. If this if this moving forward, you know, when my semester and my Easter is over at the beginning of May, I will have more time to dedicate to things right now. I'm don't I'm a I have zero hours in the day that I can do something else. But come June, I will be And a much better position to start really meeting with people, because, uh, there's only so many hours in the day, but I have I did meet with Robert Stackhouse, um, had dinner to talk about from an artist perspective. What are some ideas and I You know, I had some ideas that I threw out at him because cause I'm not the sculptor, so I don't have that kind of knowledge. So just to kind of get at him and his wife, um their idea because Uh, originally the proposal said, uh, or stringer, So the stringer sprung me into a idea of you know how can because if we were to be able to get space outside the sponge exchange, which which We don't know that yet. That's not something that's been approved. Um, and we're still waiting on the, um Vision plan. It was supposed to be done in March, but So until that's done, no no locations would be approved on the docks anyway. But let's say, theoretically, we're talking about a sponge outside the sponge exchange. I thought, you know what would be nice outside of the Sponge exchange would to depict a scene of something that actually had a place in the sponge exchange so that it's it. It serves many purposes. Um And to me, I thought, you know. The collaboration that was happening then is what was a is a really beautiful story. So you know, there really isn't any Greek sculptures sculptures down there either right? Because the one on the dock doesn't look Is not that looks like a generic person . It does not look Greek, and it was not publicly funded anyway. Um so I thought it would be nice to have a scene from what was going on in the sponge exchange of, you know, maybe a Greek man clipping and an African American or or Bahamian doing their stringing and the showing that collaboration of work that was happening and maybe some sponges around them, You know, in a in a sculpture that actually depicted a scene of what was happening outside of that particular place , because I think that serves a lot of purposes. Um, that was just one idea that I threw out there. Um Another idea I came up with after I met with, uh and I don't know that this one is logistically possible. It's just a vision. Um So on the boat, the city boat that's actually in the water. I thought I was thinking about this. Like how else cause you know there's other? You know , there's lots of types of people that were working on the boats, right? It wasn't just it wasn't you know, just Greeks or African Americans or Afro Bahamians. You know, there were others as well. Right So, you know, I don't know, because I didn't talk to Robert yet about this because this is a new idea about from his sculpture point of view. Um but, you know, maybe creating figures. Actually on the boat as a crew to show all the different aspects of you know, and who was doing what right because that would be also a great educational experience for the tourists to come down there and you can see you know, and I don't know that that would have to be bronze. I don't know if there's other materials. Like I said, I'm not the sculptor in the family so Or in the so that's something I don't know if this was even logistically possible, but that was my vision is, you know what could you do to really bring to life? What was actually happening there? You know, um, so those are just some ideas that have popped into my head as you know, as as part of this, uh, springing off of this, um And so, um That's something that we can discuss, you know, as a committee or when you know when the committee is actually formed. Like I said, you know, I apologize. I'm a little I'm a little. The approvals have to happen First. I'm a little behind on that, because just life happens and That's that's on me. Unfortunately so but But I know that speaking to mark, you know, uh, without a location. No call to artists can happen. Um there was some, You know, Diane and I did do a little bit of looking on some sculptors and to get just a general range, right? So um, but I haven't contacted any of them yet. I just haven't had that time. Um Like I said, my schedule will free up as soon as my semester and Easter are over. Um And so I'll have more time to really dig into this further. Um, but Bronze has gone up. Right So for talking bronze, a single figures at least 70,000. You know, a doub double figure would probably be more You know, you know, double that. That's that's always been an issue. So but I don't know. And I asked, you know, Robert, is there other materials that can be used and you know, he said, you know, yes, of course there is so you know, so that's something that can and that, you know, he's a good resource for that. So I'm glad that you recommended him on that. Just because for the from the artistic standpoint because we need somebody who knows, you know that. I mean, I know how to look at art. I teach understanding. You know, but, um, but I don't know the sculpture, You know, logistics and how you know or the you know, I can figure the name of a friend of mine. So there's a few sculptors out there that we could get a hold of and start to get ideas as to what that would cost and, you know, throw throw a couple of ideas out there. Um so Yeah, first, you know again, I had said this to begin with that Nothing was gonna happen until that vision plan is done. And so that still stands and they're not going to be able to give us a location until then. So that's been delayed there. It was supposed to be here in March and Not on the city or anybody else. It's on the consulting team who has not yet turned that in, Um and again, like I said, my schedule will free up after the semester and Easter is over so that I can dedicate more time to, you know, helping with this situation, this project I think after this is you know the proposal goes, you know? Well, first, we need the budget figure. Right? And as you said, it's probably gonna end up being six figures. And then um, if it's bronze, Yeah, if it's bronze, uh, we should also explore other materials. Sure because there's a lot of stuff out there and, um So, my feeling is, you know I don't you know, without a general, you know, and I don't know. You know, if Diane , you can answer this question, so would this be something that would you know? Be proposed as a general idea. First to the commission, or do we have to go with something specific? We have to do a whole specific proposal. OK, just so I can know what order of Things that we have to do this in. Um so I'm gonna ask that. You know, y'all give me some time until June when I'm more free to really dig into the logistics of this and talk to some of your people and see Let's form a committee that works for all of us right because and I appreciate the suggestions, but, you know, I definitely want, you know, definitely want Tina on there? Um, because of her knowledge, and then you know, we'll talk to everybody else, and we'll talk. You know, we can't talk to each other, but we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. Um and you know to form the proper committee that also has a knowledge of the community but also has an understanding of art as well because I think it's important to have both of those. So um I just I just need a little time to get To be able to focus on something this large of a of a project. And so I hope you all understand that that you know, as you said, you know, we've been I was expecting a grandchild but up Right? Well, it's just like when we did Steven's project, we really, you know, had a selection panel that included a whole cross section of people with different and I just I. I would appreciate the time on that because I just I need to be able to, uh, get my ducks in a row personally, and you know Right. So do you want to table it? I would like to table until June. If that's OK, just so that's when I can actually pick it back up again. OK, so do you have to do a shall it's not going to be at the, uh The annual report, then. OK, well, so Oh, I You know, it'll just happen when it happens. You know you can talk about in the annual report you can talk about . You know things that the public art committee is considering you know, future projects that they're actually in, you know, research on those we can say it's in a research phase phase. Yes because that's exactly what happened in 2020 when I proposed the S statue. And it You know, never went anywhere so And, uh, now the doctor Mary Savre project that's going to go have to jump through the same hoops. But at least this one has a location, which would be, um, on the grounds of the Stafford House Museum. Which is city owned property. So, um I don't know if you know who Doctor Sanford was. She was, um Uh, a woman of many firsts and, um There. There are no pack projects to date honoring any of these original pioneers. Um The proposal actually came to me from, uh, doctor Elizabeth Coachman, who wrote a book about , uh, doctor Safford entitled the Indomitable Might and She was kind of funny because, she said, if you wanted to do something, life size would be every economical because she was only 4 FT four So For So that so we've got we've got two proposed projects in the hopper, which you know, I'll include in the, um You know, at least peripherally and I have a name for you a sculptor. You can you can call OK? OK? All right, uh, take them all staff come and work quotes. The better Are we going to go through CR A. And, oh, you mean Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, OK. Sorry. These new agendas. Have me a little. Uh Oh, I'm sorry. OK, um Uh, Oh, yeah. Katie wants to mention something on the sponge. I know you table it, But can we say we table it until June, when BBA has a chance to work on it just said table didn't say a specific specific time, so it's going into well, it's gotta go into, uh, it's got to go into, um, a formal request to the board of Commissioners, which may or may not happen in June, so you don't wanna go ahead and do a like a Proposal or a vote on it, you know, or do we have to until she's ready? But I was also before you make your motion. I was also gonna mention Tobi that the people that I recommended, um those people. Maggie Mouse Julia Day. Um Andre Smith. Um Those those people are directly from the community. Um and, um Tina. I did speak to Tina and Tina has volunteered to be a pastor to be on it already. I did, too. Yeah, Yeah, We're good. We're on the same page. We're on the same page. Yeah, Yeah, she would be OK. I just have to say something, and it's kind of a sensitive issue. Uh I know that you've taken the initiative on this project and you have to tread very lightly because there is, um A thing in the ordinance about conflict of interest. It can't be seen that this is coming from you as a member of the committee. So that was just a lunch that I had with a friend. Yeah, but you know, I'm I'm just I'm just bringing it to your attention. So on the same note, Um Bieber the idea of the, um The Nativity scene where there's a unity I. I feel in when there's one accord, you can bring unity. So that was my idea as well. I know there's a Bahamian and then there's African American. And then there's a Greek American. And there's Greeks who was actually born in Greece who's full of blood Greek, But all of them work together down there so that the I didn't see anywhere where the only it was only two Bahamian sponge. Uh, captains, and one of them was Diane Brooks . She went to school with with Nick and I her her great great grandfather, Wilbert Brooks was the was a Bahamian sponge captain on the Doris too, So that would be great to incorporate something with Mr Brooks on the diarist, too, but also have everybody working in a scene that we'll have to see how that I mean from my understanding of the Or on Bailey's bluff. From where from what I understand, and they weren't on Dodo Kines. The votes though they went, they were going through Bailey's bluff, right, so that location wouldn't be. You know where appropriate for that, Um, so and yeah, and we'll throw out all kinds of ideas. I'm just I was just trying to think of, you know something that's going to you know, because you really you know, we have two communities that have never had a riff. You know, they've been, you know, always worked side by side and I just To continue that, and I want to show that unity rather than you know, back and forth, like, well, hear me, and I did this and I did that. I don't I don't want that. I wouldn't want that. You know, I right, So to me, it's more important to show that collaboration and the were not on Dode ks. They were at Bailey's bluff. Well Mr Mr Brooks was Yeah, right. So well, let me just bring something up. This was the whole thrust of Stevens project. Was it? Not Steven. The gut sidetrack went to, um. I think my project sort of addresses. Uh, it's a broader Take on the history. I mean, I think it I think we recognize Irle. We couldn't literally identify every single person and everything that happened, but and in that whole process of looking at all the sites and reviewing the history, they definitely I identified opportunities to go. Which direction you right down by the sounds exchange, actually, where there's another opportunity to augment that. So where you want to get if you want to get into names of boats and specific people, there's definitely you can go go in those directions, you know? Um My project is a little bit more of an overview, you know well, and there's other things to consider. Here also is possibilities of, you know, how do we, you know, give this recognition you know, there's also other ways of doing that, right? You know, there could be a historical marker put somewhere right. Where which actually explains some of there could be. I don't know that there's room so I'm sorry. I'm throwing this out there without talking to you, Diane. But it's just a just things come to my head. Right Um you know, maybe in something like the Heritage Center or somewhere else, there is an exhibit created that tells that part of the history as well . So that's something that you know, can be accessed. So there there's a lot of ways where we can, you know. Start including that portion. You know of the history. It doesn't necessarily have to be. You know, a $200,000 sculpture, you know right, because that's what it would cost. And I offered that in the last meeting and in the last contacted me. So I, um so I'm just throwing out some, You know other ways to bring this to the table as far as you know, because I think part of the maybe the issue that you know the community is having with Stevens is that they don't un Maybe have all of the information. For it or didn't you know Stevens is like people are looking for their direct family connection. That's what I'm talking about, right? That's sort of more on the history side . I mean, there are people you can trace to look, I don't know that that's going to be solved in a sculpture either. Right Right. Um so if what we're looking for is something more detailed and descriptive than you know, why not consider Um, an exhibit somewhere that really delves more into those direct historical, You know, references , you know, or a historical marker or, you know The art boxes is, uh, that are on the actual Uh, on the working dock area, right? I've had many people come to me and say, you know, we really wish that there were just historical photos there about you know what happened here at the sponge docks instead of random vote, you know, pieces of, you know, art, quote Unquote, uh and I. I also think that's a wonderful idea is that's another place that you could display. Uh and I'm not talking about all of the art boxes. I'm talking about that specific area, You know, Um, is something to consider that you know, people have Many people have come and presented that to me, uh, that they would love to see historical photos on those so that they can really access what was happening. You know at the time, which is where another place or something like that could be included. So I'm just I'm just talking about you know some things to think about. As you know, how can we really, You know, address what we're looking for. Instead of jumping into, you know this or that or the other, so brainstorming is a huge part of the art process. Um it's not here. Let's do this. We gotta it's gotta, you know, be a conversation about you know what is the best solution to really fit the needs of what's being asked for Um so I, I think, I, I guess right now I need to table it first for a personal reasons. Um, time wise, but I also think that's a good time to maybe spend the time brainstorming. Oh, It is as to where this what other solutions are out there so we can come up with the best one once again, though, what keeps rearing its head. Is that we're treading that fine line between art and history. And that was that. So it sort of came up with the, uh You know the coach Rudy Murrill. I mean, we're not in the history business or in the art business, So you know there are other, you know options. Like you said. There's the public library. There's the historical society. There's no reason that you know, even though an exhibit at the, uh the Heritage Museum are doing something, you know, like a PowerPoint that would even appeal more to younger people and kids. You know, have some kind of, you know, multimedia presentation right now. I, um in our renovated um Theater at the Cultural Center. We have put up um Black and white historical photos that you know depict, uh, the sponging industry and it it includes, you know, the Greek Um , spongers as well as the, um You know, black sponges as well too. So I, I ask you, you all should come and see it because it really looks nice. And the people who have been in the theater are they love it. They just make such a presence on the walls. I mean, it really looks nice. And I've people really love the historical photos because they love to see what was actually happening. You know , um, that that's really something that appeals to people. Um I think more than even a sculpture. Uh, so It's just something to consider is how could we, you know, create that, and it's not necessarily have to be a bronze $200,000 sculpture. It could be a Nativity scene that's made of a lesser product, but it just shows unity and, uh, and representation of the black in the Bahamian sponger on the decades because red now they are not. I could, you know, Could it be some sort of a mural or a photo? You know so like that there's more ideas out Storman, just like you said, brainstorming brainstorming right because it could be a mur. It could be. You know, uh, it could be a sculpture. I came to conclusion when we were looking at different sites that you know , the more better, you know, And I think that that's what we're that's what I'm seeing is there. Uh, you know, I think the QR code in that that resource may be also placed to sort of say, Here's your Here's your sort of clearing house. Do you wanna go to the historical society that you know? The gallery there If you want to see potentially historical marker 11 of the things that came to mind was one of the documents I saw where and she would know this is a Rose Cemetery has a list of actual There's a list of the sponge burbs. You know, ages and things like that. There's also some documents that are lost, too. I believe, but, um That identify specific persons and their, uh, their occupation. But there's There was many ways to make this stuff more accessible so that it's all part of like something bigger. I mean, we have two sculptures. My project is two sculptures in media implies, like almost like a part of a history trail, So I mean, if you ever get into historic there may be places for markers, eventually, certainly coordinating with anything to do with Spor. You connect that on the map, and now people can start walking in there. You know ? Well one of the things dawn has been working on is a walking tour, and I think there's another uh, What is it? Uh, Chula, Because, you know, uh, the Greek woman that does a walking tour. And uh, is John Michael still doing one? I don't think so. Maybe I'm not sure. Yeah but there there have been walking tours and, uh, you know, Elizabeth actually did, uh, a play that, you know. Kind of brought the mural to life. And I think there was somebody on this panel that was in it. So you know, So you know there were other, You know other ways to get the message across appropriate. You know the tours. I mean, I. I working down there. I've seen some tourists and it's kind of funny. They kind of little guidance to this kind of. It's really kind of funny to watch them Sometimes, you know, um, they could use a little guidance. They would enjoy it. You know, they they're they're They're hungering for something. Actually they're looking at me. I'm working. They want something to do so Mhm. OK, so let's see, uh Back to the CR a mural project. Uh, Megan, I guess we haven't gotten anything this. We don't have any right now. I'm still waiting for Catalina to Materialize, Uh, city Clerk building. That's another one. That's just a rotating thing. Megan. The budget update. There is nothing new to report on our V collections from Pat McNeice, and the current balance is 197,000 OK? And we just had our expenditures of Jonathan Ramirez and, uh Noland. OK? Okay Uh, we discussed Mary's Stafford. Uh item 13 was beautifully dealt with earlier by Sarah. They have comments. I was just gonna say, um, now's a good time. Uh, between now and when BBA uh can um, can begin, you know, working a little bit more diligently on the project? Um, for ideas. You know, so this is a good time for doing additional research and coming up with some ideas, so that when you know she gets started, and, um you know, it goes for all the projects. You know, it's a good idea time. That's all I have. Right. OK, um About something. Tarpon Arts. Next production is always a bridesmaid. It's opening weekend is the first weekend of May. So it's a fun spring. Funny show. Yes, I believe I have tickets, so I'm looking forward to it. Sarah, That's something you and Bebe and I should go to together. Wedding photographers. Start shaking. I don't need to experience weddings. That's why I drool. OK next. Do you have any comments or great movie star over there? Yeah. No no, I don't . Oh, OK, Diba Anything? Um No, I think I said everything I had to say, Sonia. Um yeah, I would just like to say that on Saturday, April 20th Downtown top springs. It's hosting its first, um, artwork and about 17 businesses or participating, and , um artists and crafters will be at various locations. Um Am I allowed to promote Um, I wasn't sure. So I'm gonna be a Johnny's tapa from 12 to 5. So if you guys wanna come past and have a look see That will be appreciated to support us, Katie That'll be great. Well I did go to, uh parks and recreation meeting on Monday and they were talking about, um, maybe having, uh The Walter Street Center wrapped with a mural or some kind of, um Uh, what is it the picture that you put on it? So I was just thinking Well, maybe that could be something that Oh, the Art council might be interested in Mm-hmm. Okay Where's that now? Is that the Walton Street on the Recreation Center, the recreation center. They want to wrap the building or put a mural on it. And Julia is on that committee. I don't know if she want to speak on it or not. But, yeah. I know how we go about approaching that. Okay well, Elizabeth, you've been waiting quite a while. So up to public comments Do you wanna You. I just want to remind everybody we're we're Four minutes. Thank you. Uh, I listened to the pack meeting on, uh, March 13th the last one and I heard some comments that I wanted to address. Uh, one of them being that we don't do historic projects or culture in the city, and I wanted to set the record straight. Um first I wanted to say that, uh, the reason why I'm even here in Tarpon Springs as I was awarded a national grant for the arts in 1976, along with the bi To do exactly that, to further enhance and define the unique culture and diversity of the city of Tarpon Springs. So I've been doing that in a variety of ways, and some of that has to do with the pack because there have been very supportive of that, And tarpon Arts as well been doing plays and murals and sculpture as a multidisciplinary artist and throughout Florida and beyond ever since works like the Gainesville Solar Walk, Tampa International Airport. Are greeted by a large scale ins installation of birds leaving the earth and air side a painted right here on stage at the city of, uh, Tarpon Springs on the commission chambers back, then created works in Fort Lauderdale to public libraries, downtown Tampa Convention Center. There's works there at the multi modal facility and last month my historical play about Tarpon Springs history and Florida involving the his Miracle mural at the Cultural Center was featured as a movie. I had a film of it at the Leper Ratner Museum of Art, So we do a lot of stuff. I wanted to set the record straight and give some, uh, mention to this pack and two tarpon Arts for doing so many things, so we should all be proud of that. Um there is a 30 minute documentary sponsored by the Pac about that play in mural of our history that plays at the center now, so that's constantly going on. And people visitors here. See that I have a question. Uh in addition to sharing that a sentiment um of the pack, I view the pack as supporters and I would say protectors pillars if you will guideposts in our city regarding public art. So with that in mind , Does anyone know what happened to the roses at Rose Cemetery? The dedication of those roses was on September 21st. There should be attachments. Uh there is not an attachment, however, of a recent attachment of the roses being obliterated and painted over. And that was noticed, uh, by some people in January, so, uh, I'd I'd really like to know if someone being that we're all involved in public art, and we Appreciate it whether the PAC committee commissioned that or not, which, by the way was not. There was no money involved in the painting of that, Um, does anybody know Because when people land in TI a and they see that, you know stuff having to do with tarp, and I think my name is there and so is the city of Tarpon Springs . Right near that, Uh, birds, leaving the earth giant mural that was painted in our city hall. They're gonna wanna come to Tarpon. And is that gonna be a public art legacy or our city's legacy? That things can be, uh, damaged if not destroyed and obliterated. At our in our city. In our cemeteries and whatnot. So can anyone. Does anyone have any information about that? Now I know you've contacted me when you saw that it had been painted over, but I don't. I don't know what happened to it. Well, I can I If you don't mind. I can speak on that. Please. Is it a conflict? OK we rose cemetery in 2020 at I remember a long, long time ago. There were roses. There was a rose vine all the way across the white border of that. Um Cemetery on that wall. It was a it was a vine, and I think it's a lady named that was dealing with. The city. Named Patsy. I think Patsy Hines. If I'm not mistaken. Her name was Patsy. They She had someone come out and they they they painted that vine all the way across there. A few years later, a few years later, she was very upset. Because somebody came along and painted over the vine. So we don't know who did that. In 2022 . A new board was established. So the picture that you're depicting here in is this your? Is this your artwork that you that you have? And I don't know. If can I pass the what It looks like now the handout that she wanted in the past. So the, um on the second row, the second picture in with a big R on the rose. Um Yeah, it looked more like that today. So this has been happening for years. This was happening before 2022 and 2022. September 6. I mean July 16th 2022, a new board was voted in at Rose Cemetery at that time . The uh, A grant was given to the to the organization. And they the wall did not look like the big roses. It was. It was. It was fading. It was going down . So this when we had meetings, the members of the organization for the For the proposal that they got they voted the members of Rose Cemetery Association that has voting rights. They voted To redo the wall. The front wall. So now if you go out there, you'll see the Gray rose that you have there. That one. There is all the way down from the both ends of the cemetery on on. You mean the stenciled Rose the Rose. That is a stencil on a gray wall. And then um, Yeah, so that's the first vine was covered up and nobody knew how it got covered up through a person that was working with, I think with, um with the city, the city's mus, uh, Public Museum of Arts here, so she was upset because somebody went out there and painted over that after a person. Put in a lot of time to do it, then became this rose. Now a proposal became a of the members of the association when they got a proposal from to enhance the cemetery, the members voted to redo the wall altogether. The second the roles that you have in the middle here that was long time ago. This is more depiction of what you see today because they haven't had a chance. Uh, to enhance this. Put it back. So on May we're looking now in May. We're hoping to have elections and I'm sure this can be brought before that committee to the board. And then you can bring that forward to that committee because it has nothing to do with the city. What What? Uh, whether it has something to do with the city or not, is I think the city uh and I hope the city and the public art committee and the community in Tarpon Springs is, uh, appreciative. I think they are of when public art happens, whether it's uh, something that was You know, a project with public art or or not? This has to be seen as a safe community where we're not having our things destroyed. And so, um Whatever this is about this the board it's my understanding that there the original board And some kind of new board. They're going to court to decide. Who the board is so Whoever painted over the first board a second board a vandal, Whatever. Um I don't think that's I don't think that's uh, allowable in the state of Florida. Or or even desirable, you know, in any community in the state of Florida, So, um You know, I feel very badly about it that my work was painted over and I said, I like to think that in this community here as the coming here as the artist in residence since the bicentennial and having even you know, like considered by tarpon Arts in the city to have a rack card here because of my notable Endeavors. Uh, I You know, it just doesn't. It doesn't look good. It's not good, and it's hurtful to me that that was painted over. I wasn't discussed with me. And even if it was, there is a law in the state of Florida. And maybe the public art committee is not aware of that law, but that you are not. It's not. It's not something you can do to paint over an artist's work. So You know, I I'm expressing, my, uh, sadness about that. And, um I don't think it was right. Apparently there was no vandalism or anything, but I consider that a form of vandalism in a sense. To do that to an artist work. Appreciate you your thoughts and you what you're saying, and I sincerely apologize for Rose Cemetery, If you if you felt any kind of if we did any kind of harm to make you feel like that, But I would like to get your name and your phone number and your contact information so we can contact you because, as I said, the city of Tarpon has no has has no authority over the cemetery. It's a public nonprofit charitable cemetery that's owned by the by the by the black community. And the board that's established at each annual meeting are the ones that in charge, So every time a member come out and vote, it's important that all people every member I was was sent notifications of what was going on. Members were sitting out. Not some of the people that might have that you might be speaking to ask them if they got a notification of the meeting. Did they attend the meeting? I I don't know much about the There's two different boards and I understand you're going to court to decide you know who the real board is. And all that. So I you know, I, um I'm not involved in that. But I am. I think, regardless of whatever board it is, um It's illegal. To do that in the state of Florida. It's unethical and it see it just kind of feels very mean. To me. For that to have happened, and that's why I really want your information so somebody can address you because you got to remember as I still have my information here that Patsy. I'm not sure of her last name, but she's with the city, her her artist. The same thing happened to her, and she felt the same way you did, and that was before we came on board. So the time for the discussion has ended. Thank you. Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you. Thelma. Did you want to say anything? I believe you came next. Yes. OK? I'm Thelma Chance. And, uh, I'm a part of that graveyard, Um, committee. And it's at this point in time. We were in court. It's not decided on a board this time. OK, thank you very much, though. OK? Thank you for your interest in coming. OK? Um Uh, we are adjourned at 3:53 P.m. Our next meeting is, uh, Wednesday, may 8th at 2 p.m. in the, uh, in this location. So Thank you all everybody Thank you.