Oh Calling to order the Charnel Revision Commission for Monday. May 13th at 2 P.m. on the dot Ah! Deputy city clerk. Would you please check us in with Dr No. Can you hear me? Let me start that again. Uh, I called to order the Cheddar Vision Commission for Monday. May 13th 2024 at 2 P.m. It is still 2 P.m. Deputy city clerk, would you please? Uh Father, the royal doctor Root. Oh, you say my name . Oh, I forgot to put my hearing aids in. I'm here, Mr Mr Colas. Yes Dr Goli here, Miss Jennings. Here Mr C is absent and excused. Uh, Mr Seamen. I think he's trying to find parking. Uh, and this chair. Penny is absent an excuse. Thank you very much, Um We have to approve minutes of April 29th and may 6th Uh, so let's start with April 29th. We have a motion to approve the minutes, so moved C. That's fine . No, no, I can't say we get you. Did you second, OK? Any discussion on the minutes. None. Move to accept a submitted I'm sorry Move to accept as submitted. Thank you. I thought we had a motion. We had a motion in a second for the A P. There was no discussion, so no OK. And call the vote. Doctor Gules. Uh, yes, Miss Jennings. Uh, Mr Colis? Yes, yes. Alright Uh, let's discuss the, uh may 6th. Uh minutes. Uh, may I have a motion to improve this written on May 6th 2024 minutes so move Second Any discussion. No. All right. Call the vote. Please Doctor? Yes, Miss Jennings? Yes. Mr Cole in Yes. Doctor Ro. Yes. All right. There's the paperwork we're done with that. And um, so I'd like to thank Commissioner Kias and Commissioner Diano for coming today. Um, to speak to us. Uh, may I ask, uh, Commissioner Colas to Take the podium and Share with us his thoughts on this charter. Good afternoon Charter Revision Commission first, I just I wanna thank each and every individual member Who's been appointed to the Charter Revision Commission and to spend your time weekly to come in to look over items that, uh, may be a concern. For the charter and the well being of Tarpon Springs. And I did write some notes down on some of your concerns. We have, uh or that you all discuss at prior meetings, and we could Over them, after all, do a short presentation. And Uh, I do have some, uh, opinions on Direction or my thoughts about them. Now. Uh, We have to try to understand our goals and our goals is when we're trying to possibly write out a referendum for the residents to decide as to Did it within those 15 words for the title. And also those 75 words for the description and Sometimes that can be a challenge. There was a charter revision question. Not too long ago that was pertaining to residency. And, uh, I don't believe it passed. And so, um You have a hard time as well as trying to put it together and to have the board. Uh finally approve it so it can come at the march 11th meeting or the march 11th election. I wanted to go over and residency is something that you all talked about At prior meetings. Um And I'm interested as well. Uh, I know as a private citizen, I was very vocal in Uh, maintaining that the department had to do live inside town. But Being on the other side now and being able to see the difficulties in in trying to get good staff to fill. Important positions. I would Like to see how this board they wanna come up with residency. We, you know, we've heard from The last meeting, if could be a possible Certain amount of miles within The boundary outside the boundaries of Tarpon Springs. Um, but I I'll leave it up for How this commission would like to look at it and talk about the discussion. Do you have an opinion about it? I know I won't qualified people living in or working for the city and I don't want them to be 56 miles away and not be able to Work for the city because of those circumstances in our charter. But I am interested in in making sure we do have the proper titles for department heads and moving forward that there are two positions. Inside with the department heads that When one is that I can find it for a moment. Yeah, well, it says that the city manager, assistant city manager, City clerk Administrative services director, Fire chief police chief Public services director. Development services director and planning and zoning director shall establish permanent legal residency within the city within one year after appointment. Well, two of those positions There aren't really there's nobody with those actual titles in the city. And so You know, we do have two department heads and we have our public works director And our building director, too, and I That's something for this board to decide whether We should change the names and of those titles and have them implemented into our charter. Or not. Now. I don't want that to affect The actual residency. Of some of those people if they're titles were changed. Um, cause I understand the point of keeping qualified people. And I believe they'll be grandfathered in regardless. But I am interested in possibly changing those titles. And I'd like it. You know, leave you guys with a healthy discussion on What you would think. And so I'm interested in the residency, but as also Clarifying our department had titles. Um, with what we have we have. We will be looking into that. We've noted that, however what is your opinion in terms of who should be within the city limits? Or if we're going to allow a radius, so to speak, What would that be? That's really, you know, Do you have an opinion on that? Because that's really I would prefer more of a radius at this point. Uh, The actual numbers that I can't give or take or give the actual number right now. I'm Curious to see if there if there are any Employees or department heads that are living with the they're gonna be grandfathered in any ways the way I believe it's gonna happen. And so I don't know what a good number is, Is it? 10 Miles, is it 15 Miles, you know, radius it's that's something for the board to decide because traveling, you know, traveling 30 years ago, someone would think going to Palm Harbor is a distance. But nowadays it's you're there in less than 56 minutes, so Just something for The charter revision to consider And then which positions are critical to me that location requirement. Well, I think There. There's really a majority of them are Are already listed in in I believe they're all living inside the city. But my two are the development services director. And It would be The public works director. The titles Wise. Those are the ones I'm I'm interested in looking at Also I'm interested in looking at The Civil Service board. And that is. 19 Section 19. Thank you, Miss Jennings. And so From what I understand that the board hasn't Hasn't been aborted in quite some time. There may be some There's well. There has to be cases in which a board needs to review the issues. And so I'd like this committee to decide or or you know, side. Are there any alternatives to this? I don't necessarily want to remove it because we don't have one right now. But when I look back on Section eight item J. For the board of Commissioners and our duties and responsibilities. It talks about creating, alter or abolishing boards, commissions and committees. I don't believe the BO CS. In past has abolished. The board and so I don't really know quite enough about it with our in a way our employment structure is and reviewing items. You know, for demotion or anything like that to, uh go further I. I believe Mr Coo's may may know a little bit more about it being around for quite some time and including Mr Tara Panny, and so I I'd like to get your thoughts on it. I just don't wanna There's something in our charter about us having a board, but yet There's not We don't really have one right now. What are your thoughts, Mr Coo? I maybe maybe I can help by giving you some history on it. Yes, a way back When and, um I think this is either by a third or fourth time on this board, but way back. There was an effort for The employees that they wanted some representation. And the choice was to continue it a civil service board. Or go to a organize group of People who A union. OK? At that time they they chose the Civil Service board because Actually, it's we're a unique city in terms of the employees when they have a problem. They're supervisors usually work it out. They They take care of it. You don't have to file a grievance and B, you know, and you end up with a grievance. You end up going with a grand master and somebody from the outside who doesn't understand what's going on making a decision for us. I've uh I had some active work with the Civil Service board and sat and watched and how they did it when an employee has a problem, and his supervisor can't Resolve it. Then he can ask, and they'll there is a civil service board. They call them in. Right, and then they decide along with the city and the employee. Are they meeting his requirements or are they not? It worked. It's uh, extremely I I'm surprised it's as good as it is, because this isn't the way we are these days. If you watch TV, they're all out in the street tone as we don't know what the hell we're doing, you know, but, uh I. I think it works. Well I don't know of any any employees and I have to. As the two ladies if they know of any employees who are not getting taken care of. And when they reinstate the Civil Service board to hear their grievances. Is it better than a union? Having been a union member. I was, uh On negotiating teams. I did Hearings on terminations myself and I'll tell you what it's a It's expensive. You know, it's not like you Just go in and sit down and work this out first . You they, they send three people down, and it's A national organization. You can pick three people from the Let's say san you. They're all Excuse me. They're all qualified. They have all been attorneys in it. And then you pick one. And then you like go on the court. Everybody has their say, and he decides what's good for the city and the employer. I'm not Convinced that The employee is gonna get the best better of the deal. By that happening, OK? And I'm being honest with you, I. I did it as a union guy. I was one of those goons, you know? So I. I understand both sides and I'm happy that this is still good because if a union came in I tell you what, it's gonna be hell to play. They they have a job to do and they're gonna do it. And It's to me, there's no choice. What we have works Great . Unless I'm I'm not in contact with any of the employees who are telling me they're unhappy, OK, but if they were, they would be going to you. I'm sure or one of the other commissioners. Uh, I don't know that that's happening. So The city manager was in here and we didn't talk when he was in here about the Civil service board, but it's very functional, and I think it's adequate for what we have and what we do. OK? Yeah. No, I'm I mean, I I've Had a few complaints. But I know as my job it's really not to be meddling in the, um Our chain of command. And so, uh, I Let the city manager know And from there, the respective departments or, you know. Whatever our current processes are in place have to take over. I can't necessarily, uh, start investigating into matter Or should I? You know you you what you said, is absolutely correct. And that's what's supposed to happen. And it's one of the things that has been bothering me when we talk about this distance in and all that, because II I certainly rec recognize that some things need to be changed. But When the management people bring it up. And none of them has told us yet that These people who Do not feel like they should have to move because of If it's financial if it's interest rates, whatever. They should be going to the city manager who should be bringing it up. If they go to a department head or something he should recommend they go to the city manager. That's his responsibility. But To bring it to us as well. But It works. We're we're fortunate in this town. I'll tell you what we're we're one of the few times that don't have the regular problems that other towns our size have. We may not like a lot of things. We may whine and cry about a lot of them, but it spill the best place to be Agree with you with that, Mr Coo, May I make a comment on this? Yes, Doctor, Um Uh, as uh, a former city employee for 10 years and then before that, a state employee for 13 years and they had a union. Um I do know, in fact of cases in which here there were problems, uh, with an employee directly with the supervisor, so the supervisor wasn't going to handle it. And I know for sure that they didn't know about the Civil Services board. Maybe they had been told initially or something, But during this whole thing that was never brought up to them, you know? I would like to see something I don't care if it's a civil service board or a union, but there should be something and the employees should know that that is an a possibility when they do have problems because it's not. In fact, widely known by all the employees OK? Any anyone else have any thoughts on this at all ? She's just for the record. It's important to know that if the employees want to bring An organization in a union. They can do that without permission. That it's up to them. They get together when they have a majority of the employees. Who are that wanna do that? They're allowed to do that by law. They can't stop them. It's up to them. That's That's interesting thing I'd like to say is that with the existence of the Silver Service board if the employee still feels that they do not They? Their grievance has not been adequately addressed. And they still have other options. Um Legal court, etcetera. I believe correct, Attorney Salzman and I don't believe they have that if they're having representation by the union, I think they're they're a little more limited. Sometimes it depends on how everything is written. Sometimes you get you have to exhaust your administrative remedies. So if we have provisions for civil service board something along those lines, so need to be done, Uh, in advance before you file suit, depending on what the cause of action But I. I think this gives the employee more More freedoms of choosing their their path. So before you take that away, Um, I. I think this does a pretty good job of protecting as long as they're aware of it. Sure, no. And that's why I just wanted to get your The committee's input on it. Just so we had a discussion on its history and thank you for, uh, elaborating, Mr Coo, and so it sounds like it. It's a good Fit. It's there for the employees if needed. Maybe we can just educate the employees more about it being there. And Possibly other alternatives if it ever came to that, But, uh, I do think that Uh, staff does a great job and in handling these grievances before it even got to that point. So, um Just something to consider in the future, But it it sounds like it's Um, it's better to keep it in there than completely remove it to protect the employees. I I do have a question more for staff, probably in this case, but in the last 10 years I have have there been any instances of an employee taking advantage of the Civil Service board. That I can't Sorry. That would be something. Or HR director could. I. I wanna say that there was about if they're speaking briefly with the city manager. There might have been about two cases in the last 18 years. So and that's why I wanted to bring it up. It seems like there, there's been some time and whether it be educating or just talking about the charter and this board in there. Uh I just wanted to bring it up and see where it would go from there. Uh, There's one more thing I I'm interested. And possibly adding as a duty or responsibility to the board of Commissioners. Uh, under Section eight. And This duty really should Go without saying Um, you know, we talk about how we. All the different responsibilities and duties and, you know, establishing time and dates and adopting rules and procedure for all meetings. No. Setting the local mill rate prescribed by law adopt the city budget. There's a lot of different things that are the duties and the responsibilities of the board of commissioners. But I wanna I want the residents to be able to hold Us the board of commissioners and future boards accountable. And making sure we're we're doing our job. And that's everything within that job. And one thing I'd like to ask you all is I'm interested in in having the board of commissioners and I don't know if it's uh I don't know if it's in the something that we write in the charter or Place it in and Some other way, But I want US commissioners to do a better job lobbying. To our state, local and federal officials. Because if we're not doing a good job lobbying to get these funds for grants For bills during When you know our federal and state reps are going into their bill writing if we're not communicating with them. We're losing the leverage that we were elected to do. And so I see it as a and I see it. Where our staff we have our grant writer. We have our department heads they they help work and in submitting applications to, uh The other officials and stuff and trying to get great opportunities or or funding. But I don't see us as commissioners involved as much as we should be. You know, um so I'm interested in having some type of Record of written communication. Annually. That shows that we as commissioners are doing our job. To lobby for projects and lobby for funding for our city, and so Are. Are you suggesting that Every commissioner. Go forward. On their own initiative could contact these state and federal officials. Um, be I mean, is that what you're asking? Well I'm I'm asking in a sense that we do a better job in communicating that. Yeah, we are . I should be reaching out to state. Rep. Adam Anderson a lot. Same thing with Congresswoman on a Palina Luna or Congressman Bill Arras. And whether we set up individual meetings, one of US commissioners have to be there be involved. I feel like if we're not involved during this process, when, um The city and it's the staff are applying for it. I just I think we could get overlooked. You know where We need to be there as a solidifying effort to be the backbone and helping create funding opportunities for projects. So Attorney Salsman. Is there anything in the Florida statute chapter? 112 part three. Talks about Elected officials lobbying. I don't believe there's not while they're active commissioners, you know, depending On what kind of lobbying you're talking about. They're lobbying on behalf of the city. I don't think that's a problem. Well, that's good. Um Oh, I'm sorry. I I'll double check. We're talking. Yeah No, I'm just I'm just wondering, I. I just I'm triggering on that word lobbying, because sometimes I can get you in trouble. And that might. There is prohibitions of lobbying after you're in office. Um those kind of situations after your term has ended. Um but I. I don't believe there's a prohibition, especially as the commissioner is talking about because that's bringing things into the city. Um and I don't think there's a Problem with that. Um And. Is an individual's and individual commissioner, um free to do that on their own, Or would that need to be done under, um Agreement of the board. If you made it a charter provision, then they would be required to do it. What What about the? If it was not a charter provision, then it would probably be something that the board would discuss at a meeting And just, uh Either through notification or acquiescence or an actual vote that you know so and so will be contacting similar to, um commissioners will be part of this particular organization on behalf of the city, and they will, um, lobby on behalf of this provision, whether it's grants for say water. Um you know things development. Those usually go hand in hand with the particular organization that they're representing the city with the reason Bringing this up is because it's very important that the commissioners act to the voice since if they're representing themselves as commissioners that they because they speak for the city, in essence then and so you need to have one voice for the city, as opposed to five voices. Follow me, and that's why it's important to understand that that needs to go out as a As a board decision that that would be an activity that was done. Are you suggesting that because you had said individuals? I'm just trying to understand. You know what your concept of that is? Because you know, even writing a letter to, uh Pinellas County, Um, board. As the commissioner with your commission with the commissioner title that individual if they have not had that letter or concept approved by the board is really going rogue, and that's that's not sanctioned under the Florida statute. 112 Section three I don't know if you know that or not, but we're not talking about doing anything Rogue. And so what I will break down to you is I did have a talk with, um Staff of one of the state representatives. OK and basically I. I said, When are we supposed to be submitting projects? And how do we go about doing this? Because, I, I wanna get funding to our city. Well, and they had mentioned that, um Well, your staff will reach out to us too, at times, and they give us a list of four or five projects. They try to go over them in detail to create funding. Well, we either need to have The board appoints someone to help go to these meetings. Or We all individually have a right to meet with our state representatives and go over the list of projects that project admin has listed out. It's not anyone individual says any commissioner says. Oh I want this project before that. It's the board. It's the staff that comes together, has these projects and list them in their priorities, And it's up to the state rep to see what they're gonna try to put in the bill. And so I just don't want us to be doing the bare minimum commissioners. I mean, we can all sit here and just See the agenda Items come in front of us and vote and Just show up when we need to, and Be done, but We're supposed to be going out and try to create funding and create good relationships. With all these state, local and federal Officials. The city. Kind of does that now, not in terms of with the state, and the mayor usually appoints a member of the board to go to the Pells County Group and the sister cities and all that. But It would be It would be just as in in we may need to give this a lot of discussion because We're not getting a lot of state money . We're not getting a lot of federal money, and we have a lot of things out there. We both know that have to be done that we don't have the money for So, II. I think it's a great idea if a commissioner notified that person in the state like The FWC. Everybody in Pell and Pasco County. But it against Not having a no wake up. OK? And The state said, No, we're gonna leave it where it's at. They didn't care what we said. But we didn't have anybody up there talking to them either. And what you're saying is probably right. How how we do do we put it in here and say that the mayor can choose The hard problem is, is that Clara. The commissioners have a full time employment. Yeah And they can't just go to Tallahassee on a whim and miss a day of work or keep their boss happy, and all that that would have to be worked out and have to be figured out. It's a coordination's concerned with that, you know, it needs to be a voice of the city, as opposed to a voice of an individual you can be the city can be represented by an individual, but it needs to be the voice of the city. Yeah, it would. It would need to say something like it. The direction of the Commission or something like that. But The lobbying is definitely an important function. Uh, to bring in those dollars. Yeah, well, you know, I think the one thing that bothered me was the word mandatory. Mm-hmm I don't. I don't see how you could make it mandatory because first and foremost, the board of commissioners is a legislative body. And the, um You know, requiring something like this from a commissioner, I think is over and above plus in in today's You know, uh, climate You know, uh You know, you just can't be taking potshots at grants. You know you're gonna have to go in with some kind of knowledge or expertise that you can only get from somebody outside. You know if you have a grant, writer You know, uh, that's familiar with, you know, environmental was something that you could apply to swift mud for ex, You know, let's say or something that you could apply to. You know, I have a friend that's strewn money from the Department of Agriculture. You know you you could put in a grant for preserving sponging techniques, historic sponging techniques and probably get some money. So there's a lot of things out there. But you know you need to dare I say it. Spread your tentacles, not reconcentrate them back to the board of commissioners, and I agree with everybody else that it has to be a united voice. And I think you may have slightly misinterpreted What Carrie meant about going rogue. You know, I think If you if you do approach a grant granting source or somebody, an agency, whatever that's capable of writing checks. Uh you know, it has to come from the city. You can't come from one commissioner. And I don't mean it to necessarily come from one commissioner. I'm just making sure that there is Representation from an elected official and not just city staff. And well, I think it should be both. I mean, you look at all the other, uh, departments that bring their expertise to the city. All right . You guys can't you know? Decide all of these planning and zoning issues. Right. You have a planning and zoning department that makes presentations to the board of Commissioners. They study it in the department and make recommendations to you. It's the same with grant funding. If you've got a grand funder, you know Grant writer there should be somebody That's going out there. You know, there are directories. There are all kinds of online, uh, resources for determining where, uh, Grant funding is available. Had the grant writer do that. Make a prep, you know, prepare some kind of report and bring it to the board of commissioners. Then one person them. The BC could be appointed to spearhead that particular effort. But otherwise it's too scattered. It's too, you know, hotshot. I think you I think you were interpreting as it being pot shop. But as I explained it to you, there were there was already information in which city staff has four or five projects that are in high demand. They already have. Not one in not one individual commissioner. Just gonna go out of their way and say, Hey, let's have a meeting. And I'm just gonna talk about four or five issues to get funding for without any backup. I would hope those commissioners have city staff with them to help educate them and help them through that meeting, But I just don't want city staff to get overlooked because we as commissioners aren't going above and beyond. To make sure we get that funding as needed for grants or put in bills. We can't just do the bare minimum and Whether I believe it should be a group where either the board's gonna decide, or, um Not one individual goal. No but staff is gonna be part of it The whole time. They always are. When it comes to great opportunity. You presented it. It didn't sound like it. I like I said I was going to put it out there and we're gonna help come together on a decision to frame it, right. You know, I have another idea, and, uh Whatever we do is gonna take some money. Okay? Perhaps this is a good time. That When the budget comes up. We should put money in there. To be able to hire I'm ready to get it. And at that point, the mayor possibly could appoint a board member who has a lot of time or medium amount of time to keep up with it and bring it back to the board. But you're not. And I admire the fact that you want to go and try to talk him into it. But you can't be up there every day. And when you go, you're gonna be in a line. Sure it it takes it takes the real pros to get money . But that doesn't mean we. The board can't direct that. That's that's the only way it can be directed. But it's professionals that do this that the city could choose to engage. That are there . They know these individuals. They know the process for getting money. Um they know the process for, um, you know, uh, starting To see the pond, so to speak to get a grand opportunity established. I mean, there's a whole process within the state government just like the federal government to make that happen. And you're, um I don't see that the Commissioners. In their capacity coming in really have the reach and the knowledge to do that effectively. So to Hire them to do that is Um I think way outside the bounds of what their jobs are. I mean, it might be something you wanna see because you have a heart And you wanna see Tarpon Springs getting more funding and I agree with that. It would be wonderful, but I I'm kind of siding with Jim. And that is It's probably, uh, AAA budget situation where you know that needs to be tackled by having the appropriate individuals in place within the city and in support of the city to make that happen. That's a good point. You brought that up, because, uh, Attorney Kardashian mentioned that a prior meeting that Now she thinks the city should have a full time lobbyist. Yeah. No I mean, that's a full A lobbyist understands the Who, the what The How and you know can make that happen and you want someone who's who's been there and is In that process, as opposed to, you know, people who turn over every 3 to 6 years trying to do make those connections and inroads who could jump the line? Yeah, well, I, I think there's not jumping any lines right now. There has to be It has to be some push from within, and that's the board of commissioners. So since you brought this up. Is there a way you could figure out how much would it cost the city of Tar Springs to have somebody when we need them? OK? And get that. Money in the budget because the budget talks are starting now. Yes, they are absolutely and At that point, if the board wants And if one of the members has more time than the other and doesn't mind driving the Tallahassee They could keep up with it. You could make friends up there, but that's how the other guys that we pay or talking about paying. That's how they get they make friends. They take them out. They eat. They To meet their family. You know the whole thing. It's where they've been in that position. Yes and a retired out of it, but have the connection they connections are there. It's the connection you your idea is good. I know a lobbyist. Would know and could help ask for help from commission members when it would be most effective. Also yes, they show up absolutely I. I just want, uh What I'm trying to get at is to make sure that we're communicating as You know if I'm not going to see Adam Anderson at his, whether it be Tallahassee or his office here or same with Congresswoman and you know, we're not trying to push initiatives to help the city that's already prioritized by our city staff and budgets and capital improvement projects . Then, um, I don't think we're doing the bare minimum. And so That's why I think it's important for us to have that communication with them. So what you ask for in your Memo to Irene. Was In the board. Feels like this board. It gave you some direction and all of that, and that email says it helped me articulate what we're trying to get at because I'm trying to group it together. I think that's exactly what we've done because it kind of woke everybody up here that Yeah, it's a good idea. But you guys aren't really gonna be able to do it if you have a job. Sure but hiring somebody, and I said it the other night when The other day when we were here is that The city. Budget is Not minute anymore. No so there's gotta be some money in there somewhere where we could hire somebody to help us get The grants that we need. And Mr Steven brought up a good point that hey, when those you know when they think it's time it's ready. They'll reach out to us and tell us Hey, maybe one of you should attend this meeting with the rest of the staff and ourselves to have some more, Uh, teeth in the game, you know, So, uh, that's my goal. You have that structure within the charter and within the board of Commissioners organizations, you know that the You routinely as a board decide who's representing the city at various things as one person can't do it all. Um yeah, II. I like that. You brought it up. I not sure that making it mandatory for Recommission is Realistic, but. Turning it around. I mean, my reaction was, geez, that's really a city function. Um and putting it In the budget to hire a lobbyist to achieve the ends You, um articulated, That's a great idea. Sure No, that's I think that's your best way on achieving Your dream and, um You know, benefiting the taxpayers of the city. While also recognizing that you know you you board has limited resources in terms of time. So Well, one other one other way. Possibly that we could help you is that Uh, Mr Kiano came and addressed the border already, And here's the second and then the third one's over there, so there's four board members that haven't been here. So There's nothing saying that we can't say to them. Hey, we discussed this. What do you think about it after they give their things So when the budget comes along, perhaps bring it up. Bring it up early. And, uh, Let's go forward. Oh I like that idea. I just I just wanna bring more money into the city than than what we've usually been known to get from these agencies. Uh, May I make a comment, too? And this is more specifically about grants. And I think this is a great idea also to have someone on the budget to do lobbying, But you're not mostly talking about grants there. I think you're talking about you know, state, you know, state funding in different kinds . Um unless you're talking about , uh, Private foundation grants in which connections are really important as someone who's worked as a grant, writer for decades, and almost all my Over decades were funded by grants. I know them pretty well. And I also know that actually, staff does write grants they are they know in their area of specialties. What grants are out there for them to access, particularly government grants, but also private grants, too, because that's part of their professional skill set to do and they do it or you look like you look at, uh Carolyn L Ford, who wrote the grant for the Union Academy survey recently. Every single night in the islands was funded by grants from the National Endowment for the Arts, You know not from the city, you know, I mean, it's just part of the skill set that many of us have. So it's already kind of working in the city system in terms of grants to a certain extent. Sure, sure. It. It would be interesting also to and I don't know who the appropriate person to look for. It is but to You know, obviously, we're not completely reinventing the wheel here. Somebody else has done this at other cities Larger and in our size, a little bit of research of information that I'm sure is out there. Would tell us what some of those people are doing, and we could look at some of the ones that are the more successful in terms of the dollars per capita that they're bringing in. Sure. No no I. I agree, Mr Seaman, and so it was. I'm happy. We talked about it because our end of the day is We're elected officials, but we're supposed to be personable with these people, and it doesn't mean just to call them up and say, Hey, let let let's have some coffee and talk about Nothing. I'm gonna talk to you about the city and try to find ways for you to help out Tarpon Springs that that's my goal. I don't you know, so, But you're we need to be personal with these people. And so I'm happy we had the discussion on China improve or make sure We as a board have the proper people in place, maybe a full time lobbyist or or someone who can help. Um Secure more funds of all types. So uh, thank you for that topic, and, um Budget will be coming up soon. So I, I will be bringing it up with them. As far as those were, really, uh, we talked about the Civil service board. Residency within a certain amount. Of miles from the city limits. Also the proper titles for Um A couple of department heads or having them listed in in the charter. And Uh, the potential lobbying or trying to Um, have the city have the proper people in place for more funding. Now there were some Items of discussion you all had from the prior meetings. Would you like me to wait first for Mr DiDonato to go over them all? Or would you like Now is your time. So why not? You go ahead and complete so the property purchase thresholds. We Right now. It's currently $350,000. Uh, I've heard. What? What numbers? Is everyone interested to look at it at? We have not had that specific discussion yet, OK? Well here's how I look at it. We had the Hoffman property, which is the spring bayou property that was on sale for a little over half a million dollar or 550,000 somewhere around there. I wanna say Cause 600. It wasn't more OK . We also had the Ross property, which is over in, um by Florida Avenue. That was Close to 700,000. I believe I purchases I. I just can't. I'm sorry. If my numbers off a little bit the summary, but it was more than the 350. It was more than the 350. I know. And then we just had those, uh, three properties down at the sponge docks that were sold for 1.7 million. And From what I see if you if when you leave it to the residence, and you either talk about storm water or community involvement, or, uh many other aspects it seemed like the voters are gonna go for it. Seems like they're gonna support the issue when it comes to a property purchase in town, so I don't necessarily have a threshold. I'm interested in I. I believe if it comes to the referendum for the voters, they're more than likely gonna approve it. So I guess the goal is to make that number. I guess higher enough to City staff can operate a little bit more without having to reach out to the residents. The referendum. I don't have an exact number. But like I said, Whatever number the size this board to come up with, or um the BOC. That'll come up, but it I've seen and we've seen over these four or five years when it comes to referendum and purchasing property, the residents more than likely support it. You can just look at the numbers so It. It's ultimately finding a threshold. In which you think it's comfortable enough for staff to maneuver. For properties and that are in the best interest of the you know. Best interest of the city. Be but I do think it shouldn't be too high in which we can just purchase anything we want without the voters approving We've seen the voters approved for many different properties, different numbers, and so, uh, I'd still would like them to have a big factor in making those decisions. The number increases a little bit. That's OK, but I don't wanna be too big of an increase. And those are my thoughts on the purchase. Power and limits for that. So you're saying you support an increase? A limited increase. Very limited case. Yes, Half a million or a million. I would probably say 400,000. Four and a quarter 50,000. 75,000 OK? Cause right now it's a 350. I don't wanna increase too much more. I understand there's uh um Inflation and property values are going up, but the residents do need to have a say in that. You know, especially Where we're going now, but we had at that one property over at the intersection of, um Stafford and 25. I I'm sure I. I write all these notes. We keep a record of who came and said what? But I. I wouldn't wanna see it above that. You know, II. I still feel it's important for the residents to make decisions. On properties. You know, especially when we're Trying to claim it for community involvement or just storm water issues, and especially if it goes over that threshold. Whatever that threshold is, I'm confident if it comes to the residents, it's gonna get approved. So basically just about all of the properties that you just enunciated would be over the threshold, right? Yes. So it have to be a referendum for all of them. I think they should They po pieces of property. I don't think you know this. So we as a city just go by property without the re deciding what we're gonna do with it. I mean, Look at the Hoffman property. We still don't have an idea what we really wanna do with it. You know, it's been almost four years, maybe three. So I'm sure the art commission has an idea. Oh, yeah. I'm sure you know. So you know, sometimes sometimes opportunities arise and you know you have strategic Purchasing opportunity, and you decide later and I don't think there's a problem with that. And the citizens are clearly on that one supported you. I I've written down your 400 to 425 I thank you . Um Is there anything else you wanted to bring up and discuss far as what we You see in our charter the importance of the of the taking care of the Anclote River, you know, and that's the inner outer channels that includes our bayous as well. So um, I think it's important we need to do whatever we can to support taking care of our river that You see right there in our city seal. And so I just wanted to bring that up. As far as the Marine Commerce Committee where you all were interested in reestablished the committee. What was reviving it. It was never. It was never formally disbanded. OK? Does anybody wanna touch up on it a little bit? Well, I think You know when it was I was on the original committee, and when it was first formed, there was discussion of, you know, doing the dread getting the dredging back on a regular schedule. Because it it hadn't been done in 20 years. Ideally it should be done every 10 years and it's like, you know, cleaning your house. If you keep it up. It's Easier every time you do it, So, uh, I don't do but anyway, um The You know, I. I personally think it would be a good idea to, um, revive it, and, uh, You know, we have a lot of very qualified people that were on it the first time who may or may not want to serve on it again, but the type of people they were You know, Julie Russell. You know they were people who were actively You know, working the waterfront? And you know, uh, I think I think it's definitely worth looking into OK, well, I have no problem. Anything to help. Really As as it states marine commerce, So I mean, you know who you know we are as a city, so I have no job. I have no issue in supporting it. Um when it comes to vocation of board appointments, and I saw it I think even the passports And this current board. I think I've done their best to try to A point individuals and positions based off their experience, but we're only limited to the individuals that volunteer and want to apply. So, uh, If we can only get more people involved. It would be great. I I'm hoping we can get some younger individuals involved. But you know, people are just They got so much going on in their lives, and so it's difficult. And so, but I, I think Like I said, passing this current board tries to do their best to fill those positions based off the experience and those people that that have applied. Well, I think , uh, it's almost nationwide a nationwide issue with trying to get volunteers for anything. So it is a challenge, and, uh You know, I know Irene and Michelle do yeoman duty with the Citizens Academy, and that's Kind of looked upon as a kind of a farm for filling board positions. So You know, Every time we graduate class, we always keep our fingers crossed. No I agree. Hopefully and we get some of those people who who who attend the Citizens Academy to come on the boards because it's a great thing. And then there there was discussion about planning and zoning. Board making final decisions on some minor things. And, uh, I'm just not gonna support that at this time. I think I think it should belong to the elected officials who ran campaigns to hold them accountable for things. They said that they would take care of when it came to land use and Property in town. And so, I. I did see a recent application. Regarding overnight stay. The sponge docks. In which, uh, you know, There was no no code written for that. But just comparisons and you know, being able to compare Overnight stay and The board looked at it and approved it. You know the committee or the planning and zoning, and so it's concerning that's those are big issues. So a big issues there. And so ultimately, the board of Commissioners should make that decision. When it comes to applications and the importance of it all, because, frankly, there are there are people who are on committees that don't have enough. Prior experience or knowledge regarding the history of Tarpon Springs. And how certain land use takes effect. And so, um I'm not interested in letting The planning and zoning board have, uh, the final decision on applications even if they were minor. Uh, So those are my thoughts on that. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anything else? No but budget time. We're gonna try to work on getting a full time lobbyist because we wanna get more money into town. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for summarizing the issues you were going to bring to the sport to, uh, the city clerk ahead of time . That's always appreciated. And, uh, thank you. For your service. Thank you all for helping me and being part of this committee because important committee and, uh I just it all coming together. And thanks for your advice, we need it, so appreciate it. Next up, commissioner Dina Dado. Welcome to our Mission and Well, first of all, let me thank each and every one of you to be up here and give it your time as as well as the staff that that's here representing the city. I have had the privilege of being on your committee. I think three different times once with with Jim. Um I know the importance of it. It's only done every five years as you know. Uh, sometimes wonder About more frequency and then sometimes I will. I wonder that maybe we should look at less, but it's all relative. I think that the charter. Is That's your guy? That's what that's what we follow. And I think we have to be very, very careful. With what we put in there and or take out. Uh Fortunately, we haven't taken out much. That's the point. It's very hard to take something out down the road that's in the charter once it's there. I think I think our our attorney would certainly echo that. So I caution what we put in We have other means. Ordinances and whatnot that that are more living with. In the time it can be changed. But changing charters are very difficult, so I just wanted to put that out there. Uh as far as some of the items that you've talked about previously as far as property value, I do feel that should be increased. Um Having been on the committee at least three different times. We change it every single time I was on it. Because inflation as we all know grows Now another reason that no one talks about, uh it cost a lot. To put something before the voters today when I first started It was relatively cheap. But an election Now if we had an election, we needed to get it for reasons that the property owner has a chance to sell it to us and or someone else and that's happened more than once. In fact, it's happening right now, and I'll talk about that in a minute. But it now costs roughly. What if we were to go on referendum by ourselves? What would it cost? 45,000 That's at least three times what it was when I before. If we if we join An already existing What does that cost one or two valid card? I'd say anywhere. 4000 to 8000. Pretty big difference. So that's why we always try to piggyback as as all of you know, with with the elections that are coming up with the county because it's gotten so expensive to do it by yourself. Uh, so I would like to see a little more leeway in the purchase. We've got one coming up right now that we're already talking about, and that's the purchase of, uh, the ST property for the dredging material, and I would echo that we need to make sure this happens every 10 years. At least And we need our own property to do it with we spend Several $100,000 over the years, maybe even over a million . Now. I don't have the total number. Uh we could get it. But I don't think staff needs to take time doing that. The point is it cost to lease that property in the hundreds of thousands in what? You? Yeah John, you're right. It was 20 years ago. But the point is, it needs to be done more often, and land is not gonna get cheaper. It's not. In fact, we're almost at a point now where we aren't even gonna be able to find a property size enough in this area. So so I don't think we can wait on that. Um now that's gonna cost more than than what I feel that the purchase should be raised to as far as the charter is concerned, but that's just one example that I think we need to look at As far as The duties of the C, the commission. I was like the first one to be and I know we can't do it. But if we can all agree to disagree in this, this is pertinent to what Commissioner Kass was talking about. As I see it our job as a commissioners. Or to try to work together. We always gonna do that. No, because we're five different individuals. But we being up there and hearing all that goes on. Have a pretty good handle on what the people want. And if we don't, he's right. We aren't doing our jobs. But we need to get To get things done and set a direction for the administration to set direction for grant writing to set direction for other goals. We must first come together ourselves. I don't think you can legate legislate that in the charter. But Have long said that we need to agree to disagree, and then we need to go find some solutions. And I know you can't legislate that. But when we're all on the same page talking about what we want, like Mr Chris, but I have some good points. Let's talk about those. Let's decide. Let's develop a policy. And asked the staff To fulfill that or find a way. That's the way it's supposed to work. Yes What do you see right now? As as limiting your ability to do that on the commission? Well this is all public record. I can't tell you everything that I feel. Is this the elephant in the room and it it It's just it's just working together is just working together. And I think the city manager and staff as I have found over the years are always more than willing. To bust their buns. To try and get that done once they're given that direction. That's where We need to refine what we do. Uh, I don't expect everybody to agree. I don't want everybody to agree. But I do want everybody defined as an agreeable solution. In other words, you can disagree as long as you're agreeable. I think. Well, it's the same thing agree to disagree. You had to do that first because we are gonna disagree, and that's OK. I don't mind that, but we have to find a way to go in in a forward direction. And I don't feel that happens all the time anymore. Uh, so one of the reasons why I'm here. In fact, it's probably the reason I want to help. But you can't legislate that. You can't put it in the charter that I know of. But that's the biggest thing if we work together. We'll get things done. Because staff is more than willing to do it. We have a grant writer and you're department heads for years, specialized in areas have written grants. As far as I know , Doctor Monahan was one of the best I've ever known at it. Uh, We could give her the task. Highland North, Um Anclote River Park across across the river. There was a chance to get a grant to buy that property. And to Further develop it. We did that through through, uh, Doctor Monahan's efforts. It just it takes direction. Um Mm. Any other questions You may have of me. My biggest thing. I just wanted to communicate and commend you. I don't think I should be here telling you what what to do. You've already hit on some of the issues. Uh Well, we really appreciate your insights. I mean, you've been involved in city government. I very long time. You're an integral part of the city of Tarpon Springs. And so your insights are important. Um and they help our process so I would disagree with your comment. I'm going to disagree agreeably that I think it's important that you're here telling us what you think will improve the charter for the city of Tarpon Springs. And I understand you know your caution about putting too much in it or anything in it. Um but hearing your ideas. Your observations is very important for this board. So, I, I thank you. For being here. Well, I, um I couldn't be here if I didn't tell the truth, and I have to tell the truth first by saying, If we get together, we'll get things done. If we don't, then we'll just spin our wheels. That's number one. It should be number one with each individual commissioner up there. Mm-hmm But again, you can't legislate that. See That's that's really, really it. I want us to stay on top of the dredging I. I talked to the city manager and Um, I may before I was even reappointed to this office that we got the city engineers going now let's keep it going. And that may take some lobbying and some some letter writing and whatnot. Uh, speaking of lobbying I want to see an assistant city manager. Or or a public administration director. One or the other. I don't care about the title. But the point is that I have lobbied for the city with usually the city manager. We went to Tallahassee. We went to Atlanta, one time for a big developer that eventually bought the public's plaza. We sat down with them. And so what can we do to help you to get this going? And they were very receptive. They were very happy. I've been up to Washington DC representing the city, so Lottie and can indeed be done. I wouldn't mind having a professional, but I think it's gonna have to be a contractor or subbed out because I don't think that there's full time work for that. Our budget process is like three or four months. Five months, maybe as far as public part of it. So I don't see that there's a lot there but again using our department heads. And our grant, writer. In a direction from the commission to staff. That's the way then we know what we wanna go Ho for rather than sending someone up there and not knowing yet, should we watch some of the laws? Well the Florida League of Cities does that for us fairly well, the county does that reasonably well, they let us know anything that's detrimental. So I'm not against the lobby. I just thinking I have to be a part time situation. Uh, That's I don't really have a lot to offer. I think you're going in the right direction. I think you've got some people up here that that have been here and some people who are new to newer to the committee and that that's a perfect blend. Was happy to see it. And you talk things out and you'll get things done. So do you have questions for me? Maybe that's the better way to going back to the property values. Do you have a notional number that you think would work well? In the charter. We're asking this of everybody. So you know, to be honest with you, I. I tend to be on the upside, as opposed to not changing it much. Uh, again, I count on the responsibility of those that are elected up there to know what really needs to go before. I mean, just because there's a threshold it doesn't keep us from bringing it to you. If it's that controversial and anything controversial, certainly should be brought to the people. But I think it should should approach 500 to a million. We're in that realm. Again. We don't change it, but every five years So well, you you do know you can reconvene. Yes Yes, I do. Having been on this committee I. I know you're gonna be called up any time. That's true. That's true. I do know that That You asked. That's how I feel roughly any other issues. Questions queries. Well, I won't obviously need my full hour. I'll start with, uh, Doctor BUCA. Wallis. Do you have any specific specific questions? I'm here. Yeah. No. I'm good, Mr Seamen. No. So we got it covered. Wonderful again. I thank you. What you do here is very, very important and I know you're the people to do it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Appreciate your time. Just me. And thank you for thank you for your services. Commissioner I appreciate it. Um Yeah. Um uh, Commissioner, uh, cu. Do you have something additional? You'd like to say. I just wanted to follow up, but I wasn't sure if Mrs from Mr Salzman if I could ask him a question to residency because I seems to be an issue with residency, maybe his thoughts on Residency with department heads are living within a certain mile. Certain radius. So you're asking to sauce man? A question. No Mi Mister D. Donato Uh, Commissioner D. Donna is gonna absolutely agree with that. I think there should be a radius It is it is getting a little harder. Community and to find the place you may want to live, but there's certainly a good variety outside. I think Major major department heads need to be here. But others that are up there is listed. Perhaps a radius would be ideal. Thank you. Thank you. Again going back ? Would you have an idea about what the radio should be? Ballpark I would say more than 10 to 15 OK? 10 to 15 minutes Miles. But miles miles, OK? Because Briefing minutes on US 19 to little That's true. Thank you. OK, Well, let's move on on our, uh. On our review of the charter sections. Um We stopped at 10. I suggest we start again at 11. You have something you'd like to bring up. Um Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Uh, yes, it's the public's turn to speak. Thank you, Mr Cole. I was seeing Mrs Bros was getting tight. Jaws there, Mayor Whip us off. Yeah, yeah. We don't wanna upset you. Don't worry about it. Need a pro 901 Bay Shore drive. Years ago, when mayors changed During Tom Craig's time, Tony Vong. Others. When a mirror changed public employees changed. And they had, um Merit system and it didn't work out. Real good for the employees. So Mhm. When they call me one night. My daughter was two months old. My husband says go It's in your blood, go and see what it's about. And that night I became chairman of the, uh Of the organization. But there's a gentleman on there, Mr. Uh Fontana. And Mr Fontana had quite a bit of history. Behind him. And uh, the next day he called, he says, Would you please come to my, uh, little hamburger joint ne? You never come. Well, I didn't go because it didn't look clean to me, but it was clean. And, uh, You start talking to me, he says. What do you think about it? I said, I think the employees need more protection. They need security. And I said the only way you're gonna get that is with, um Civil service. So a year and a half. We worked on civil service. Four times. George Pros drove us up to Tallahassee. To have them. Look at it. Their lawyers look at it the ones in the in the Department of Civil Service work and we came back. And then we had it finished. And we took it to the commission. Mr Coy? Yes. May remember this. I don't know. And uh, the commission liked it because it was security for the public employees. They just couldn't get fired and leave, you know, Tell them to get off and leave. You don't have a job anymore, and it protected their wages. So, um They said, Let's get it. See if we can get it. If you need to get it ratified. What do you have to do so? George took us back to Tallahassee, and they said it was one of the best they had read. And we did have lawyers from Saint Pete. Clear water. Tampa, look at it and help us And we gave it to the, um we needed to have, uh, have it voted on by the citizens. I don't remember the year I don't remember where it was. But the commission said we can't spend the money. Donation was made to have it put on referendum. I know who made the donation. Cause I brought the check up here to pay for it. And this is, uh What was the name of the gentleman who was city clerk before Cathy. I sa was I can't remember his name. He's now going Quimby, uh, came with me and, uh, Kathy and Dorothy called the county and this gentleman paid for the referendum. To go on, and it passed unanimously. By the citizens of Tarpon Springs. That's the best thing it ever did for the employees. And then we had a civil service board. And I was chairman of I forgot how many years I even had to remove my husband's cousin off the board with a vote of the commission because he was bringing the, uh, Union here. And they were threatening to sue us with the union. For going to go with the union and he he threatened to sue us, and he took out a lawsuit on the city, Georgia. Barber. We had to remove him one night. And there was no problem because it knew the chaos it was causing in the city. Then, when Beverly became mayor. She stopped with civil service. Think, frankly, remember some of that? Because they didn't want it. But they wanted it and they felt they didn't have protection. I only know of two employees cause I'm up here all the time reading finding out That didn't follow through with. So uh, So, uh, with the civil service because they were caught doing something. Not right in the city. And, uh, That's why they didn't use it. So they didn't fall back on it to try to protect him and keep their jobs. Um Civil service is important. And it's a security for the city employees. They need a security. Some have gone back to civil service. They've called them the board in And they helped him if they could, If there was no protection for that was it and it was through. So you need to have something for the employees here. Don't do away with civil service. Call them in and say, Do you feel it needs to be stronger. It needs to be changed, and it may need to be changed a little bit with today's rules and regulations. But that's the history of civil service. Um Lobbyists. I've asked since the seventies, the eighties and through the nineties to get a lobbyist, but we were very fortunate to have Kathleen Monahan. She brought millions of dollars into this city. And she was so popular as she still is now in Tallahassee. She knew they would call her up. Does your community need this? Does your community want to work on? Uh a grant? Also grant lists are sent to the city and they should be given to the all the different departments here to look for grants. And, uh, Grants are also called back and forth between Saint Pete Tampa Clear water. Uh when George Kas was mayor, he would call up or send. Take this. This list of grants to the city and let them look at them. Your city manager should go to the city Manager Conventions. Uh, uh, programs in the state of Florida to be able to hear about these grants. They let you know about them all the time. But uh, a grant writer is important. I understand we have one. I don't know who it is. I don't know where the office is here. You need a grant writer here in one of the departments. They can look up and get this information and write grants. A lobbyist. I've ordered a lobbyist through the seventies, the eighties and the nineties. A lobbyist is important, but it's the lobbyist you get. You have to get someone that's well rounded, and until I ask the and knows his way around and as a friend, and I know all the communities around us, even Newport, Richie. They have lobbyists and they're doing well with it. We used to go lobby. We used to go up to Tallahassee, but we hauled food up there. And they loved us. And we were able to get grants. Remember the grant for the park out here? I took six legs of lamb up there. Besides bread, cheese on it and lot and Charles called me up. Are called, Uh, the city. Where is she? My wife is having a Greek luncheon and the food's not here yet. You know, so They gave them. My uh uh, the tag number we got stopped. So when the high Petroleum says, what did I do wrong? Are you mayor prose? I said, Yes. You wrote in the Windows down, says What is that smell? I said it's food from tarpon. Do you have any back lava? He wanted baklava. So I gave him a box of baklava, he says. Follow me into Tallahassee. We got the grants we wanted. Bribery I don't know, but that's how you make friends. You've got to be a friend of all of in Tallahassee, and we would go Kathleen and I would go up there on weekends. And, uh, on on th or rather Thursday afternoons to be there on a Friday to go find out what was available to tarpon. We were getting grants. Good grants. And then it stopped, so we need to get someone up there make a friend of him and I'll tell you money will start rolling into Tarpon Springs. But you need someone up there. That's a worker. That's a that's popular and has some weight to pull. And uh or can pull their weight in to get it for us. So grants are very important. Um That and the lobbyists grant writers, they're all important. And be careful of the department heads that say, do not have to live in the city, because if they're going to spend city money Taxpayers' money. And they, uh, responsible for the safety of the water. Uh, the sewer and stuff. They They need to be here where they're spending that money and make sure the community is taken care of. And sometimes when there's storms, they can't get here That's happened before, but the ones that are department heads need to be in here. If it's a department that's public works something very important for the city. And uh, I've always said this and I've told it to mark go to the city manager Conventions. Go to the city. Uh, managers meetings. Even if they're out of state. Go to the all of these, uh, programs because that's where you find out about money and you find out about new programs. It's very important. Um So I would like to see us Get a grant writer office in here or make your department has, like, uh, planning and zoning. Building made them head of as a grant writer to get the things that they need to have to make the city bigger and better than what it is. And, um I can tell you. We've come a long way. I remember. These meetings with Thomas Craig, Colonel Sally Uh, Mary, uh, what was Mary's last name that lived on Florida Avenue quiz Ember Quisenberry. And they were rough. Yeah, but the city was different than And there were fights on it. But it was a different city back then a different commission. So we've come a long way We've done very well and, uh, We have to be very cautious. What we take out and what we put in. Thank you. Great. Thank you very much. Mayor Prados. All right. I don't see anybody else from the public here. So now we will move on to our review of sections. Um do we wanna take a quick break? All right, Um, let's get back in 10 minutes at, uh, 334. Someone. So that's. The car. That's a great idea. Put that in the desk. Oh, we're going to have like discussion of everything. So and so I'd like to continue blasting through, so we're all right. They not then maybe I can bring it back later in the. Is my crunching going through to the recording now, all right on that's good. Reconvene the charter Revision Commission. OK, let's uh Go and continue our review of the charter sections. Starting at section 11, which is where we stopped last time. All right, So this is about terms of office qualifications and, um, annual Annual election. Um, I'll Does anybody want it? Read aloud. No. Mm mm. Well section section 11. OK? Go back. My copy. All right. So, um. I always, uh, trigger on the numbers. Um like the qualification fee of $25. Is that a still in appropriate amount to have in here? Irene I would think that's kind of paltry, but Um you know it. It doesn't matter to me. Whatever y'all decide. Um, I think some of the I said, I have sat in on five charters. The last five charters, I should say, and this always comes up. And, um, I think After the discussion toward in doctor Rude and Mr Um Calling this kid uh Correct me. If I'm wrong, it comes to the end. That they don't want to make it harder. They want people to So they didn't feel you know $25 or 25 petitions and you need both. You know, there are some places that make you do a percentage. That this would be easy for someone to run and, you know, just to, uh To remind everyone to now we also have the form six as a requirement in as far as, um, qualifying. But that that's up to y'all. It's just I think, you know, just from what I've seen in the last discussions on this section. They just didn't wanna make it harder for someone you know. But you bring up an interesting point, and that's you know the form six because I know that there's a movement of foot foot to repeal it. That's what I'm wondering whether we should include it in the chart or not. And then I would not recommend doing that. I wouldn't You know that That is a requirement, obviously, that the state has and they added the additional requirements that were never there before, and you're right. It may be repealed, but that's that's one that, uh I would not put in totally agree. Um on on this. Just uh, because I'm kind of a, uh, grammar. Um Up after it says a fee of 25 is that and has been Yeah, That was a question. I just I When I read this, I thought it was I had to achieve both. And Irene. You said they either have to bring 25. You have to do both. You have to do $25 plus 25 petition cards. Then there's a typo and there should have and has been Yes, You're right. It should be. OK and it looks like that's a fairly standard. O. Mhm. Has the terms of service. In other words, the Uh, The term time of three years and no consecutive terms Now I did get a call from Um, someone Uh, Suggesting that Other local cities have a requirement that if you Brought on to the board as an appointment. That you will not Run for the board seat in the subsequent election. I don't think I've ever seen that in a charter. II I just brought it up . I don't know if it's on a city charter service. I don't think I've ever seen that in a charter. I've seen that as some, um Sometimes an informal agreement. I've seen it where the people say Well, we'll point somebody, but we don't want them to run because it gives them an unfair advantage by the appointment. Um I believe it's in our code as well. I think it's 2-12. But offhand, I would have to look it up. So they're not in the charter. That's where it says about appointments to fill vacancies. Yeah, And this was brought up. I guess because of, uh uh Commissioner. Diano had said he was not going to run and now he's running for And that was that was the concern that was expressed to me, and I didn't know if that was something that It should be, uh I thought it should. Since it was raised to me, I would bring it to the to the, uh, Charter Revision Commission to discuss OK, but but doesn't the has. Yeah, it's the third sentence if a mayor commissioner be appointed to such office, as provided here in such person may be a candidate for such office for two consecutive terms. Mmhm. It doesn't the appointment doesn't count as a term. Because they weren't elected. They're appointed. Right Well, then the comment that well, if they're appointed in, does that give them an unfair advantage. Yeah, by being an incumbent. So to speak. Yeah because they become an incumbent. That was the question. But does any incumbent have an unfair advantage in those terms, any other one would have been voted in to begin with. It's looked at both ways, because if you have a qualified person that you want in that position, you wanna have the qualified person. You don't want to make it so that a qualified person cannot, you know serve For the period of time that you want them to. So I've seen it discussed both ways. Thank you. I fulfilled my civic duty for bringing it in front of the board. Um OK, are there Any other updates. To the section. Oh, this is Uh, the last line E. Then he May or commissioner who shown this two regular meetings in succession. Is there any allowance for the next page? You can be excused from there. Um Yeah. Right. That's the excused absence. I was on the next page. That's what I So I have a question. So uh, are there any guidelines about excused absences? Now that I think that's up to the board to The way it's executed is that you know a person will put in for an excuse absence, either ahead of time or sometimes, after the fact if it's an emergency. And then in general, professional courtesy. You vote to I've accepted their absence and excuse it. But I think I have never seen any I'm trying to think maybe in some bylaws there have been Defined excuse versus unexcused, but It's just like you said you Circumstances change in each situation. Well, I think the what they're trying to avoid is if somebody Goes away. It doesn't show up anymore . The board has to has to have an ability to deal with that situation, and that's why they've chosen a number two and with the excuse versus an un an unexcused means you know they they Just didn't they? They're Yeah, they're not show up, didn't have the courtesy to let People know what it was, If it's an emergency, I mean, there are so many people you can contact in the city, uh, to tell them that there's an emergency or or even after the fact. I mean, obviously, if somebody goes in the hospital, it's an emergency after the fact. Um But it it's also what you said. It's the abandonment of the position. I. I don't even I mean, two meetings where you didn't even bother to say where you are. Right and OK, two mean, OK, all right. Sometimes I've seen that as three. Uh, And these are regular sessions in succession. Yeah. Any other comments on this section. Just wondering is In your memory, Irena ever been a problem? Somebody didn't show up for two meetings. Nobody knew where they were. To my knowledge. I don't think so, Either. It's I've seen it on an advisory board on an advisory board, but not a thinking of just stop it. It. This is pretty fair, and indeed his D actually worked because they had to fill a vacancy. So Yeah, that's pretty clean. Is the 60 days before the state sets in. Is that regular? You know normal is that a state? Fingers at city. It's I've seen that I'm trying to remember if that state or not , because I've seen it many times. I do you see that 60 or 90? So it may not be state II. I do know that that it that that 60 day it was part of the discussions about hurrying well, not hurrying, but making sure they were very prompt about me getting applications and getting people in and making that decision well, but the Practical matter is and I don't know the answer to this. How quickly the governor would appoint somebody. I mean, if you figure you haven't done in 60 days, then the governor's contacted, the governor has to look at who they would Who he or she would appoint. By the time that occurs Probably another 30 days. You're 90 days out. If there's an election coming up within a reasonable period of time, it's almost It's almost like you're appointing somebody for such a short period of time. You may just wait till the election. Um but I think I think you're correct that the idea is to do it as quickly as possible. And that 60 days was A bit of a challenge, even um, but you do need to have enough people on your board to be able to conduct city business like paying vendors and attorneys right, So that's really important. It is very important. Yeah. Um so Yeah, I We've seen this. This work this one works. But right and you also saw the problem that happened in ST Pete Beach. When you had four commissioners resign. They all quit and then trying to appoint them And I know the attorneys had a rough time with that because I've never heard of that situation before. How if you have if you don't have a functioning board, how in the world do you point where I think what they I I'm not 100% sure, but I think what they did is the one member appointed. Member and they had the two members appoint a third member. Then once you add that you could have a Public meeting and then To the other ones. But you're right. I don't know if it's something where you have to go to the In that case, you go to the governor and probably ask for direction. But that that was just so a strange situation. We've defined majority vote here as if you have less than a full board as three votes, correct. To have a quorum. Remember you have to have three and I think So three or to a majority of those present. No in general I. I know with with the advisory boards we've been on You know, and even this one, If, uh, with with two people absent, we still have to have four votes in the affirmative to pass things. But that's usually spelled out a lot of times. It's spelled out that the majority Mister president. Can you? Uh, is this a continuous document? Can you do a search on? Um Um, majority. Let me see from the beginning because I think, I, I think we if I can get into the charter. You don't have to have three votes. What's that? You have to have three votes on their board to pass it? So We may need a special On this board. You would have to have three votes because you know it's a seven member board. I It's I think it was. I think I read in here for That we may need a special section here that addresses multiple resignations. Given given what happened in in Saint Pete, so that so that it would be clear what to do. Look at. That's the end of the board of adjustments. It's defined as a full membership, but I don't I'm not seeing it so far pull up as a definition. Well, our attorney says three it's three. I will. Also talks about in the procedures. With approval of the steps in Section two. It's a majority. Oh, here we go on the F. Oh no Air says such commission shall be composed of seven in the affirmative vote of four such members shall be required to oppose any change to the charter . I mean, so for you to vote on, Ultimately. That makes sense. So you know it. It's I. I thought I wanna check on the on the commission. Because that goes to your question. Your comment. H three votes to pass anything on the commission. Would be Is that by state. Statute is a supermajority for original. Right Supermajority is for Yeah, I don't. I don't think that, um. Yeah, I don't think if you only have three people there, you can vote and pass anything with two Well, I know you have to have three to have The meeting. Right But if you only had three, everything would have to be unanimous to pass anything. I thought that was in here. It takes three. But I. I thought it was in here and I'm not seeing it. Then the question is, should it be. So Basically you want clarification If there's Three present and a determines a quorum. Three is still the majority. Rather than two. Is that where we're heading? Carri? What? What happens if there aren't three? Three out of five. Resign or or removed for some reason or something. That's when the governor steps in and appoints your borders until your next election. Which makes sense. I just don't think we have it written. We could do some more research and bring it back as well. Mhm. That I just don't thing to recommend to the attorney and bring it back. I think that would be excellent. I'm done looking at this. I can't find it. So the question is I'll keep looking at it while you where is it defined and is it in one of the Florida statutes? Um in which case that's fine. If it's not one of the Florida statutes, do you recommend that we Wording in the in the charter to address that I will look at both. Because of what we have seen recently. OK so I'm gonna put in a note here. Uh, about. Whereas majority and supermajority because we've used those terms. Defined. And that's one question. Um 513. And then Where. OK, um so right now. I think we can go ahead and vote to accept. The editorial update of the word and I think that would just be considered a Scrivener's error. That's how I was looking at it. So we do not have to vote on that. No I think we'll research that that that has to be a nurse. So no required. OK? We're going to, um. Hopefully hear from the attorney at another meeting where these things are so Um I'm gonna recommend we move on to section 12 on zoning powers. OK? Um I Since this is short, I will go ahead and read the sport of Commissioner Shah. All powers concerning concerning land uses may be prescribed by General law provided, however. That the board of Commissioners shall appoint a board of adjustment to be composed of five members and two alternates who shall vote in the absence of a regular member to hear and decide appeal solely from administrative staff decisions, for special exceptions and for variances to zoning and land use regulations of the city. Any person aggrieved by a decision of the Board of Adjustment may petition may present a petition to a court of competent jurisdiction, setting forth that such decision is illegal in whole or in part, specifying the grounds of the Illegality within 30 days of the decision of the Board of Adjustment, the board of Commissioners shall appoint a planning and zoning commission to advise the board of commissioners on issues concerning land use and other Such powers as may be provided by law. All right, so there was some discussion in a couple of areas. Um One. I have Here was put forward by Um, MD, and I was thinking also of Mike's comment about Um. That they shouldn't have absolute authority. They should not have the final decision. Which I think are. Repeat it here. Oh, P and Z should not have spinal say. In I mean, personally, I would argue with that in some sets of circumstances, so Uh and Uh, And I understand this is maybe overlap from my other commission. But There's so many cases that there's to infinitesimally small, insignificant things that we act on that. Then the poorer applicants have to wait a month or more to get to the board, and the process is already been long dealing with staff and everything. I mean, Uh, how to define those is the difficult thing. I'm not quite sure exactly how to define the ones that are non controversial and small. Things, but, uh It's I think unfair to the Public sometimes that they have to wait so long to do. Almost nothing. I'm trying to think of a good example. But um, it's not coming to me right at the moment. But but Uh, Anyway, I think it would be helpful. And I mean I see the Board of Adjustment also has that power to make final decisions and some of the variances and things that they have the power to grant are much , much more consequential than some of the small cases that we see come through P and Z. If I may and I and I certainly see your point. You know, most things are small, but sometimes there are big things. You know that affect not just the applicant that but a whole range of people, and I'm not gonna give any examples, but I've seen them relatively recently. And in that case, II, I think it would be better for those to be resolved by the board of Commissioners. Well, and I never intended to mean that everything should be changed to a PNZ making the final decisions. But I. I think there are types of cases that are relatively de minimis, and it would shorten BOC meetings because even they spend 15 or 20 minutes. Talking about them is a minimum, even when it's a foregone conclusion that the thing is gonna be approved. Um And So it would it would shorten their meeting. Uh, it would give P and Z The feeling of a little more purpose , I think, but mostly it would shorten the process by at least a month for most of these applicants. But I remember. I mean, we're going back years now , but I remember that one point I know that the, um The Herd Preservation board was a decision making board and I thought that was like the only one in the city and the other ones would do basically the I don't wanna say committee work, but the committee work for the decisions made by the board of Commissioners. Now. I think what you're describing for the P and Z board. Is that work to be able to decide. What should go to the border Commissioners with You know, would vote cause one of the discussions. It's always always had as well. How did the PNC vote? Go? And if it was not unanimous, they wanna know why. Um so I think There's a Tremendous amount of influence of the P and Z board has Um, I'm happy to entertain something to come in here. However it would really need to be well defined. Yeah, and without really knowing how to do that. It gets it gets murky and you wind up having the board of Commissioners decide everything. So that's that's and that's where we are today. Right Right. Well and yeah, and I. I would I ask P and Z staff actually to Put some thought into specifically how to Make it work. They're the ones that have to deal with it day in day out, and they're the ones that have to see the unhappy residents who are waiting. Three or four months to get A very minor. Uh Whatever it is, uh Accomplished, so I think they would probably have some ideas on On which You know how to define the cases. That are, we should put it back to the city to come up with a recommendation. I would like to see that I'm fine with that. Um I'm not sure who the action item goes to is that I would city clerk to take that forward to see if there's interest. And define Um The criteria. By which a decision can be made planning and zoning and not go to the board for agreement. Of course. Uh, a citizen could always have the right to appeal it. To the border commissioner. Sorry So you you're what you're asking me is to check with the planning and zoning director to define the criteria. If I can do that, through the city manager to support and see happen. Maybe maybe we could ask him to come in once they define it. And if we have questions, we can, uh, ask him about it. I and, and I'm sitting here thinking. We're gonna go all the way with this and change it. And then the board's gonna get it when you make that presentation. And they may be candy wampus on it. They they may wanna make every decision. So we had to walk gently here, or we're gonna Give the public a choice of two things. In the in the final program, because if they don't like it, then they can write it their way. Right Well, let's it it's come up, and it's come up more than once. That's why let's at least hear. I'm all for what the idea is. Yeah because it makes sense. And I'm I've seen it in the board of Commissioners meetings where I go I will get with the city manager and, uh, Have him, Um, get that information through, uh, the planning, zoning director, and if possible, If they have that information, I could bring it. We could bring him back at the next meeting. Can I snatch the, um Grammar police cap from Tina. Um, the sentence about the two alternates. Because the way it's written here, it sounds like two alternates will vote in the absence of a regular member. You know, one of whom shall vote in the absence of a regular member who I think would clarify that. And I guess the other question I have is, um What is the designation designation of which alternate will be voting. Is there any criteria? Usually there's a first alternate and a second alternate usually has to do with which ones there. But yes, there they The alternates have identified slots one's a first one's a second. Chair I can answer. Previous question regarding ordinances and resolutions. This is Florida statute. A majority of the members of the governing body shall constitute a quorum. An affirmative vote of a majority of a quorum present is necessary to enact any ordinance or adopt any resolution except that two thirds of the membership of the board is required to enact an emergency ordinance. So You could have two. You could have three members and two would constitute a quorum for an ordinance or resolution. Accept an emergency one. Now we may have rules that say different, but this is our This is Florida statute. Thank you. One. Other thing. I see. Uh, in section 12 here is it Does talks talks about? Appointing the board of adjustment and what it consists of, and it just says, you know, a point of planning and zoning commission, and it doesn't have similar language about what it consists of. We might want to look at mirroring that. Uh, Part of the, uh Board of Adjustment language. And you all did discuss that. Earlier. In essence saying that, you know Who would be part of it. But the question was to make sure we have the ability to appoint people if we can't find those qualifications, So in other words, if you have one member of the board Of commissioners. You have a majority. Oh, no. Do you have to have a quorum? If you have one. Do you have a board of commissioners? That's represents one person right? Every You have 54 quit. You have 10? No that's a Di did that That again is a different circumstance that that was a That's actually we'll find out the answer, or the answer might already be in there because the court has is dealing with that issue. OK all right, because a challenge what ST Pete Beach did. But it but for our concern Three commissioners, two could be Two can make a decision for an ordinance of resolution. Unless we have something different, which I had I we are talking about looking at But I want you to know what the statute said. OK, thank you. The other thing that I think somebody discussed and I don't remember who it was brought up on the, uh, The deals with some of the boards and commissions is qua qualifications of members of Boards. Yeah, that's in the commission back in the eight Where we discussed that they appoint the boards and requesting that they consider skills and qualifications. But I mean, I have been other places where they specify The make up of the board would include an engineer, an architect, Uh, a city planner. Whatever a historic preservation advocate. Uh, I don't know if it It's possible to get that specific in a community this size, but But it is something that I've seen other places. I believe there's three boards that have that currently and it would be in their makeup in their section. I believe it's public art, code enforcement and What is the third one? Michelle? Is it heritage? H PB. Maybe. But anyways, I'm not advocating for or against it in this. I'm Just saying it was something we might want to think about. And where is that? Would that be? That wouldn't be put into the charter itself, though, right? Where is the or it would be in that section like public in the public art section? It has. What that's required in the board makes the ordinance in the creation of that board. HPP and code, uh, enforcement. So I think those are the only three right now that I can think of that. Have those, uh, specific fields that are required. So it might be a good idea to work with, um, the head of, uh Um The bill was the building department right for planning and sanity. Which is the planning design permit. Um Hm. Planning and Zoning Department is separate zoning department to Um, craft an ordinance with guidelines for who populates that and I think that might happen. Naturally out of the change of the turtle were suggesting. You know, it's more than just P and Z. It's all of it. You know, we're saying, you know, consider skills, et cetera. Um OK change to allow Um . OK Um, I have a note here. Uh, that, um Mr De Laos made a comment and I wrote down precedent for establishing board within charter. Um Under zoning powers. And it might have. Do you remember the comment? He uh, What I wrote down was that he wanted us to consider other committees like the land preservation. Add them into this paragraph. OK, so I had the land preservation districts. I have Marine committee. Um. But if we did that, we'd have to rename the section from zoning powers. I think, he said that that section would be under the reserve section 28. If you think if you I don't have a copy of the minutes with me, But it's in the minutes that he wanted it in section 28 the reserve section. For the land preservation. OK? Seven. Oh, I stuck that note on 27. Okay, I'll move it to 28. All right, So we're there, so we'll leave this as zoning powers. Um. And this is Section 27. Um and then we talk about Marine Committee. Um. On gates reserved Hm? To reserve Right? Right. So that's why he wanted us to. We're gonna discuss yes. They say So. My note here is request Planning zoning department to recommend words. Addressing Uh, allowing EMZ. To Make decisions. Regarding. The term minor actions appropriate. Probably I think they understand from that. And it's something that's been discussed with staff it. It, uh Some workshops that we've had in the past, so they'll understand. It's been discussed at the, um Board of commissioners meetings because I can remember them talking about that. Um Go, 27. Mm. OK? We're gonna wait for, um , words from them, Uh, we did have I just want to make sure that it gets caught that the, um . Discriminate suggested Scribner's error of And the third Um I guess I'm hers. It's a little farther down, but basically after it, says anti alternates comma instead of saying who shall vote in the absence of a regular member, it should say, one of whom Shall vote. So who goes to one of whom? Yeah. Can we Testify that as a scrim's error as well. I think so. I think correction of the grammatical mistake is just considered. I think Correction of a gram grammatical mistake, is it Prisoners are. All right, 13 interference with administration. Except for the purpose and inquiries and investigations, the board of commissioners or its members. Individually she'll deal with city officers and employees who are subject to the direction and supervision of a charter officer solely through the charter officer who supervises that city officer or employee and neither the border commissioners nor its members individually shall give orders to any such officer or employee either publicly or privately, Nothing in the Foregoing is to be construed to prohibit individual commissioners from closely scrutinizing. By questions and personal observation all aspects of city government operations so as to obtain independent information to assist the members of the form in the formulation of sound policies to be considered by the board of Commissioners. It is the express intent of the chart, however, that recommendations for improvement in city operations under the jurisdiction of the city manager by individual commissioners be made to and through the city. So that the manager may coordinate efforts of all city departments to achieve the greatest possible savings to the most efficient and sound means. Available. I have a question. And other parts of the charter. It's very clear that you know the clerk's office in the city manager's office operate. Very independently in terms of management of the employees. Does this paragraph need to be expanded to have an equivalent part for the city? Um, clerk's office, or is it Complete and the way it's written. I would be an attorney question. We kind of do it that way now, but it's not less of the city clerk. We did that in the last charter. Right It was a couple charters ago. They always report to the clerk's office. The last charter, we just corrected it so it could also be under the city Manager section. Not just the clerk section I. I would look at this when we go to 17. The city clerk, But I think that's pretty. Yeah. No, it's already Well, the fact that the city clerk is separate from and city clerk and staff is separate from the operation of city manager and staff that is Right. It's really clear on section 17, however, in section 13 within interference with administration. It is, uh, it it talks about, Um The charter officer, But then it goes on and talks about the city manager. That's kind like I was saying, that's kind of how it's handled. Uh it's just the city manager myself are the only two charter out of the four charter officials that have staff under them. So if there's anything the commissioner comes to my comes to me. And, um Then it's handled. For anyone under my direction. I mean, I think the way it's written Well, I'm just wondering if, if the two locations of city manager we miss, and it should have been the charter official. And under the city manager section, too, as well in 16 for C. It also says all city employees and the clerk's office and collector's office. Shall be subject to the same personnel regulations as established by the city manager except that the city clerk and collector shall have the authority to hire, discharge or suspend any employee in the clerk's office and collector's office who is under the supervision of the city clerk and collector. Yeah, we took the time to make sure there was a strong separation of church and state, so to speak. We're a city manager's church, city clerk, estate, right? But in section 13 now it it it. The first part of the paragraph recognizes the staff under the charter officials. But then the second half of the paragraph just talks about the city manager, and that's why I was raising that question. I mean, it might be a don't care. It's working. Let's not touch it, and I'm all for that. But I also wanted to say in my mind, it's We had taken the time to make those very separate. Do they need to be separate? And if the answer is no, it's working. We can move on. I guess I'd ask. I II I It's They're separated for a reason, right? And I think that's our dilemma right here, you know in and the reason was justifiable when it was done to charters ago. That he had to separate him to take the overlap out because We went through a lot of city managers at one time. And they all run their business a different way, and it's tough. For the clerks who handle all the money in the city where I have to worry about their employees being bullied by I just and the average clerk office does not have collections under them. Um I think we're the only ones in Pinellas. Cali Pinellas County. No, no, we're we're We're keeping that it makes sense. I know what I'm saying. That's why it was discussions came after the speaker. We had problems. Yes we're not changing. No, no, no, no. I'm saying that's why Originally, they were separated. To be very clear on that part. No, but but what you're saying, um Carry makes sense to me, you know? I mean, if you're delineating to these two charter officials later why? Why would you not refer to that here also. Right It's that last sentence. It's the express intent of the charter, however, that recommendations from improvement in city operations, which could include The clerks are right under the jurisdiction of the city manager, which now clerk's office is not by individual commissioners be made to and through the city managers. So the management coordinate efforts of all city departments and that you know, the bottom line is this is limiting them the commissioners for being able to go to individual employees and task them. Um. Which makes sense, but I think it's um Uh, I. I just. I. I think that maybe instead of saying under the judicial jurisdiction of the city manager, it should either read under the appropriate charter official, or it should read under the jurisdiction of the city manager and the city clerk. By individual commissioners be made to and through the city manager or city clerk. So the manager May coordinate the efforts of all of the city departments. Unless it's OK to have everything go to the city manager, and then he tells you what needs to happen. Is that working? I mean is that how it's supposed to work? They usually come to me, so I don't know. Yeah, I think this 13 is strictly for the city manager because he does take care of the operations and the maintenance and all of that stuff. And where they come in is just with the employees. That they have to be able to supervise and hire and fire their own employees and to ask them right. The city manager does not task your employees you task the employee that is correct. Thank you And that and that's where this gets confusing. Yeah, it it It is, but It works. OK we'll move on. It's just I Y'all need to tell us if it if This needs changing. Tell us right now that we're talking about it, we want to do it the way you need it. Like I said, Yeah, I. I understand what, uh, chair Rud is saying and It's worked. I think they come to me if The BOC has an issue or needs to, uh, they come through me just like they would go through. Mark Uh, it's just not defined in here now. Should it? That's You know, like I said it Who's coming to you. Help me out. Well this is saying basically that you can't the BC can't interfere with my or employees without going through the proper channel. So if they wanna go to an employee or have Then they can't just go to my employee and ask a question. They still have to come through me because it might be something that might put it in my employees not really aware of or that You know, so that's how works anyway, so they're coming. You're coming to me anyway. If there's something, you know, OK now, sometimes it does get funnel. It might get funneled through mark if they're in conversation about something else, and that's fine, too. And that works as well too. OK? Yeah. I understand what you're saying. I know how you run your ships. And I know how he runs his and we're getting a new one. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, but Uh, I It ain't broke. Don't change it. That's If you need it changed. Yeah, but like I said, I don't Or see a current problem with it, but Does that mean? Leave it the way it is. Quit dancing. Will you know? I'm saying that It's worked both ways. So it's not, you know, Um, I get a chance to change it in five years. Well, I guess that's Yeah, I. I guess What has to be considered, too is take current personnel out of the equation. It's gotta be just a general commentary because right now, I think You know, you're saying it works with the people in place. Yeah Yeah, I If anything, I think a simple would would be like, uh, was recommended city manager or City clerk. Wording if. We could possibly base it on what you're saying we could possibly just Short sentence something in here. That says it Discards clerks, people. And then we pick that up. And this is admin interference with administration, So I think it covers both sides. So I think that we either take it and continue the charter officer discussion That's in present in the first part of the SE the paragraph and can just continue that through and I and then just clean up where it needs to be cleaned up. I think that Um. I I think that would be sufficient. If you look at Um, so let's see here. Nothing in the foreign What if you took a I'm thinking just take is anything lost if we just remove that last sentence? How would changing city manager to charter officer If we remove that last sentence, there is no city manager in there. And I'd be afraid to take out too much because of my experience. With I'm I'm boards of commissioners are that they will get Deep into bothering every But but it's all it's already right there. It says, except for the purpose of inquiries and the investigations , the board of Commissioners or its members individually shall deal with city officers. And employees are subject to the direction and supervision of a charter official solely through the charter officer who supervises that city officer or employee. And neither the board of commissioners nor members individually should give orders to any such officer or employee either publicly or privately. I mean, that's that. Meets the intent of what was desired, OK? So Then. You know, Then there's the kind of the disclaimer that says, Well, wait a minute. We're not really taking away your right to Question things. And observe things on how the government works. Um But You're not talking to those employees. I mean, that's what it is. And I'm thinking, Actually, we can take out everything except that first pair that first sentence. I. I wouldn't take out what you say is the disclaimer because I think I think that is an important Option for people for the commissioners to understand what is going on. But I do think that the last sentence is not necessary. OK? Yeah, I. I just I think muddies the water. So we've already told, uh we've already uh the charter is very clear about Who gets the request for information who gets the request for tasking, et cetera. I don't think we need that last section. I agree. Me too. Yeah, I think it stands OK without it. OK so this one I don't think is controversial enough. To bump a boat ahead. And, um, I'm gonna ask for Motion to remove the last Sentence from section 13 So moved second. Any further discussion. Um A city clerk. Would you call the vote? Uh, yes , Miss Jennings? Yes Mr Seaman? Yes? Yes, doctor. Yes. All right. OK Uh, it is 430. But since I don't know that, um I mean, just ask, Um, Mayor pros. Do you have additional public comments? You're gonna wanna make OK, Well, that's all right. I will give you I just I'm trying to manage our last half hour here. Um so I wanna go ahead and discuss section 14. Before we break from this, uh, internal auditor, The board of Commissioners shall appoint an internal auditor who shall serve at the pleasure of the board of commissioners and who shall perform such duties and functions as the board of commissioners may direct, including but not limited to the following. Audits of all departments for compliance with city written policies and procedures, federal, state and local laws and maintain compliance as may be required by the state auditor General. Develop and maintain an internal audit manual outlining the objectives and procedures of the position. Prepare an annual internal audit calendar. Review all revenue sources and monitor payments to and from the city. Review utility billing calculations, city receipts and disbursements for accuracy. Review the means for verifying and safeguarding all city assets. Recommend an assist in improvements of controls to assure compliance with all applicable laws and regulations. Perform special examinations, Prepare studies and report is directed by the board of Commissioners. Through audits recommend improvements to ensure city resources are being used economically and efficiently. Report all findings or non-compliance issues to the city manager and the board of Commissioners. The internal auditor shall be a charter official and a full time employee of the city and shall be exempt from civil service. Um Does anyone have any comments? I I have one before we leave, but I will voice mine last. All right. So one of the things we saw last year is the, uh, the auditor found, um I long covered a sensitive personal issue. And had that in his report. And it caused a bit of a furor. Between the city manager and the auditor about How that went forward. Um. I think the auditor needs to be given license for full reign of appropriate information. Um to the board. To the public. I mean, it's all about transparency, however, when it involves personnel issues there is there's some level of privacy and sensitivity that needs to be Um Addressed. And Probably not done in a public forum initially. And so I think a provision should be added here because right now who's section in here, says his responsibilities reported to the city manager in the board of Commissioners. There's nothing in here that says the city manager has the right to abort their process, and that's what we saw last time. Um But I can understand if you have a Sensitive personnel issue that needs to be treated sensitively and not be perhaps embedded in a report that becomes public immediately. So. I think we need to add a provision here that allows him to address sensitive issues like that directly with HR. Um Uh, To be able to have appropriate terminology in his report. That allows him to go forward with full transparency while protecting the identity of the individual until things can get worked out through the city. That That's a suggestion. Um 11 question for Mr Salzman. Um All right. Since this report would go goes to the manager and the board of commissioners before it's made public, but but would it fall under sunshine laws anyway, that this all this information would come out, including the name? I mean that that would Could be disclosed. Yes OK, unless it's unless there's an exception under 119. I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head that would apply to this situation. I can't think of one to the position. The audit the audit. I believe audits are let's look At some point, right? But I think that's once upon conclusion. Why couldn't this be? Just like everything else I remember specifically That night. When the former city attorney mentioned to the public That this should have been given to the city manager before was brought out that night. Because he he was unaware of what was happening. I don't think so. I was there. I mean, you know, I. I mean, I think he he was, I think it was given to him. No not to my understanding of it. And from what I heard. It was, uh It. It was given to the city manager, but evidently, um, it was not The city manage didn't act to pull it until right before the board of Commissioners meeting. Yes but a couple of the board of Commissioners met with the Internal auditor and did a witch hunt, which should never have happened. Because it embarrasses the city as a whole. I was embarrassed sitting in the audience. And how the hell is this going on? No it was very wrong. You don't do that. So this is our chance. Perhaps that's why I wanna make sure that make sure it doesn't happen again. We can be in in language good enough for both the internal auditor and the city manager, right? I mean, right now, the internal Auditor, you know, he he reads this and says. Look at I. I report to the city manager and the board of Commissioners, and that's you know, that's it, And this is how it goes. Well, could it be, you know, added into his report that a situation exists. And will not be publicly revealed. For reasons of personal privacy. I mean, the only the only Well, Yeah, one of the few, you know, Two things are two Excuses or permissions for a closed meeting under sunshine is, uh, I'm going litigation and a, um Uh, you know, personnel matter. So, you know. This is, I guess a question for you. No that's not. There's only the only two exceptions to the Sunshine Law is ongoing litigation and, um, collective bargaining. I thought it was just a personnel issue, OK? Thank you for the And to answer your question. When the audit is finalized, it becomes a public record. Not prior to its Not prior to its finalization. Well it tends to go out as an attachment. No. Well, that it does. Yeah technically not public at that point. For example, tonight. Albeit a meeting for, uh Fire district and they're gonna be the audit presentation. And that presentation will be When they first received the audit, and then they'll accept it. And that'll be a public record at that point, but you're right when it's internal. And it's been given to certain parties, it can become a public record based on How it's being used as opposed to the exception and what I understood when the that the internal audit was upset because he felt that the way that it was handled that that Um That the city manager was taking responsibility for the contents of his report. And that's why I think that The starter. Language should be expanded. Um and perhaps we should need to bring this reason to bring the internal auditor in for this, um, to understand. Um what he feels is limits are and what he feels. His privileges are And, you know, possibly give him the ability to get Guidance for what should and should not be publicly expressed in terms of personal issues if they come up because I think that was the big issue is the name and the position that was disclosed and the questions about propriety? Of that individual and I enlist the laws change. Personnel or Typically, you don't you're not allowed to give The former employee or Let's stick with former employers. That you can only allowed to give to anybody the day they started and the day they left, and you can't say, even question Are they up for rehire you rehire Sure, and you have to be real careful. They did not do that here. You have to be very careful because you open yourselves to potential lawsuits, right? You have intent . If I'm a new employer, and I'm contacting about you, and somebody gives me information. I don't hire you as a result of that, and it's false information. That's why you're very we try to do exactly what you said. Which is these are the dates of hire. Um this was your position, and, uh, sometimes, it's asked and answered whether or not you'd be eligible for rehire So You know, the internal auditor basically is under the requirement to report off findings and non compliant issues to the city manager and the board of Commissioners. And I mean, it just is. It just blew up for him for the board of commissioners for the city manager. So I'll make the request that the auditor come in and allow us to You know, figure out how to write this so that That situation does not happen again. I would rather ask him to help us rewriting. Well, I mean, I think you're gonna have to. Here's my Question to you. Do you want to exempt and we'd have to check with the internal auditor. Anything dealing with personnel. From his Audit and to what extent does his audit require personnel discussions? As opposed to department discussions. You know, you could say this department. We have a deficiency in this department or however you wanna put it versus state. The individual Um, personnel, per, uh, his name and that that information that may be something that you wanna consider and you may want to consider what the internal auditor tells us. His requirements are by law. Well. I have a legal question on this particular instance, if I if memory serves me correctly, the problem that the auditor was having was there was the sections of his report related to this personnel issue. He was asked by the city manager I believe to remove from the report or or to deal with separately or later or something from a legal perspective. Was that an appropriate ask And the only thing I can say to you is I wasn't involved in that. So I'd have to do the research. You know, the city manager was in, you know, appropriately requested that because of the implications and potential for a lawsuit. On the other hand, the internal auditor by definition of what's in the charter is required to report all findings noncompliance's and the Board of Commissioners period. So you have a situation that or it's a loggerheads. Well, I mean, And there might be, and that's why I don't know the answer to this. Uh, there might be ways to still both do exactly what you said, which is present that information but not necessarily present the individual's name. As I said, there's a deficiency in this department. Here a deficiency. Without naming names is the issue. Right, I think. I think that's where it blew up again. I was in the names were called out, and there was enough information that even if the name hadn't been there, you knew who it was because of the reference of the title and the position. And again, there may be a requirement as to the internal auditor that I have to be as specific as possible. I just have never I personally Well, I have to tell you that when an auditor gives a report if you've been to several of them, each one does it a little differently, and they hit the highlights and the lowlights. And then you you know, some of it they don't talk about at all. So each presentation I've seen is a little different. Well I. I think it's appropriate to have a conversation with him about what's in the chart or what guided his decision and what we could do, um, without Without you know, making him violate the term. His requirements for an internal auditor can't do that. I would tell you even if it was, Yeah, I peaked. Very I'd be worried if you put something in the charter. That's contrary to what he has a Requirement to do I believe the legal requirement. You know, it has to be something that his license is based on so OK, well, we have a plan to have him come in and discuss that with us. All right. I think that that's good. All right, so I'm gonna call an end to this. Part of the meeting is and we were having such fun too. Yes well, we can keep going, but we have. I think a hard five o'clock Well , let's we can get through section 15. Let's let's start next time with 16 0. No! Oh, no preserved OK, we will definitely discuss we start again. We'll We'll take credit for 11 through 15. All right, and, um So, um, our next meeting is May 20th. At two o'clock. Five o'clock. That are there any public comments. Yes What happened to your microphone? Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. I just want to say in reference to the planning zoning board in what Mr Simon spoke about. We elect commissioners. Those are the ones They give the final say. Planning Zoning is a volunteer board. They're appointed by commission. Uh uh. Commissioners. They don't have the final say they can come back . Taking a long time happens in government all over the place. The second thing is you look at your board of adjustments and appeals. Look at the last five and eight years. What's happened around town, especially in historic preservation. They give an OKs which should not be and that was the last step there. We need to look and make sure on the last step of the board of adjustments and appeals and let people know because it's ruining the community. It's ruining the shoreline. It's ruining the waterways. You know, and that's what we have to look at. I don't know if those things can go into the charter, but The last say So you're, um is from Elected officials now if they want to elect planning and zoning board members, that's a different thing. And then you're not open to lawsuits. Look what's just happened these last three or four years with lawsuits how they changed members on the boards and votes have been, uh, overturned and changed and were paying for it. So be very cautious about that. Are you suggesting that instead of giving broader powers to PNZ we give less powers to, uh, board of adjustments. Look at it and decide what you want to do, but just ride around in in the fruit sections and areas and see what's happened, and along, uh, the beach and the beach and, uh, people with their dogs. They've been given the right to do things in it, and it hurts their neighbors. But the planning zoning board should not be The final say. There are pointed And we've seen and we're paying for what's happened. Thank you very much. Mayor Protos, Um Borden staff comments. Let's start with you, Doctor. BUCA, Another productive meeting. I think, OK, I like that. No. No comments. Just kind of responding to Anita's comment. The I would agree there is an inconsistency in the way the two boards work and whether it goes one way or the other. I think they should be in line, so the process should be similar between the two. Hope it's not in this book. Me Christmas, but sandwich that one No, I That's that's that's where I'm No. We have plenty of time I'm hearing I said, Do you want pizza to eat next? OK? Yeah, sure. Why not? All right, Um Mr Salzman, Do you ■have anyy observations? City clerk? You have any observations? Uh uh. I am calling, uh Adjournment at 4:53 P.m.