Um the second meeting of the Charter Revision Commission. Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Irene and Michelle for our wonderful co complete packets. Um So I see here. There's an oath of office. Are we taking a second one? No, That's so That was last week. I apologize. Where is my meetings. Where's my minutes? The agenda the 29th. OK all right, So let's restart this. Can we restart this? Well, it's already started . OK I am going to, uh, personally Replay my last minute and a half. Um, today is Monday April 29th 2024 2 P.m. Charter Review Commission. I call it to order. Real call place, doctor. I am here, Mr. Cole Doctor? Yes, Miss Jennings. Here, Mr Kiss. Maybe still trying to get up. And there is there is there is Mister Cuscus is present. Mr Cusco, Mr Seaman, I believe is absent. Place and Mr T panning. Thank you very much. All right, everybody, can you please make sure your mics are on and your cell phones are off and I should do the same. What's up, could find a place to park. OK um, in front of you. You have a copy of the minutes from our first meeting last week. Um I'd like a motion to approve these minutes as written. So moved. Is there a 2nd 2nd? Are. Is there any discussion about it? Rock on Dr Valis. Uh, yes, Miss Jennings? Yes Mister C? Yes, Mr Chair, Panny. Um was calling in us? Yes, Doctor. Yes? OK, that business taken care of. OK our second agenda item is, uh, Um, do we have Are we going to do? Public comments at this point, or are we not doing that on our agenda? Um we do have public normal public comments are at the end. Uh, but this would be if there's any public presence that wants to suggest any charter changes. We do one here from the public who would like to make suggestions to the charter. And there is no one OK? Um agenda Item. Three. Let's talk about how we are going to invite the board of commissioners, Charter officials and department heads. Um Miss Jacobs. Uh, would you please start? Um So before you all discuss that I just wanted to point out on your, uh dias. There are there is an amended calendar and I thank everyone for giving me those dates that they were not available or out of town. Um I put in all the meeting dates and I listed when I knew members were gonna be, um, missing from a meeting. Um And, um I also wanted to point out for we, Uh may 27th is Memorial Day and that falls on a Monday. So we've rescheduled that meeting for May 29th and also there was a September 2nd is Labor Day. And that is the day before y'all make the presentation to the board of Commissioners. So the week before, um we have a meeting on Monday. August 26. We could either start that meeting earlier. If we need it, or we can also I have a tentatively on hold August 27th, which is Tuesday. Um In addition to that 26 meeting that we would be able to schedule I, um And I know y'all are gonna be discussing how to, uh How would you like to interview the charter officials, The BOC department heads and so forth. However I did wanna let you know that. Uh uh. Press release has gone out to the public, Uh, notifying them of your meeting dates and how If they can't be in attendance, they would be able to email those, uh, suggestions to myself , and then I would be able to forward them to the bring them forth to the board. Um also, um, I do have, um, I have spoken with the mayor and the vice mayor. Of course, the mayor will be, uh, Going out of town. Um For, uh, a city sister city signing. Um so they will be scheduled for May 29th both the mayor and vice mayor on that meeting date for the interview. I am still working as far as the other commissioners. Uh, Hopefully we can get them sooner. But if not, I will try my best to get them scheduled, uh, to come forward, and I believe that's all I have. That's all I have at this time. And then you can. Thank you, Um So one of my personal thoughts are that the earlier that the commissioners can get in the Earl, the more influential their comments are gonna be I. I have a suggestion. Um because we're gonna be here scheduled on Mondays. Then then, do we just do it just an open, invite and let them fill in the date. What Monday. They plan on being here. And that way we could put it on our calendar. Um I. I would like to have them scheduled. So you know when they're going to be here, so supposed to drop in? Well no, no , no. An open invite so they could get on the schedule is what I'm saying. OK and then their failure to not come is their failure to not have any input so Um That's just that would just be my recommendation. And if the if the if the board would like to Give them Let's say till the end of a certain month to, you know, come and provide their comments. Otherwise they would be closed. It kind of puts them on the hot seat to get it done. That just my thoughts. I think I like those thoughts. Anybody else have suggestions? Ideas. Yeah, I think that the John Can you go into your mic? I can't hear you. They should definitely be scheduled. Um And you and Jim did it the last time so To me, it would be Most productive. If they sent Ahead of time. Specific areas of concern so that we could Review that in the charter. Or think about if it's not in the charter, and it's something they want in the charter that we can evaluate it. Maybe talk to Mr Salzman ahead of time or other resources. That the committee might have, but I mean, that's It's just me that it would be helpful to Just an outline of what they want. I mean, they don't have to write a Thesis or something. But you know a few paragraphs of what their areas of concern are. If they maybe they don't have areas of concern. It's always good to have something in writing to work from, but I would not want to make a barrier to them coming and talking to us. So suggestion or request, But yes, I have a question in the past. Has it been done this way? Or simply invited them and then are they invited back? Maybe to discuss in Jim and Carrie. Do you wanna speak on last time and Michelle took care of it the last time. Uh Calling him and they're like our husbands and wives at home. Sometimes you have to tell them What's coming on and they they will come. And we also had city manager and a couple of department heads that financial people and My opinion would be it'd be great if we could do all those up front and then get into the charter because when they have a problem We're gonna be writing it down, and so will they. And then when we get to that part in the charter, we can handle it. Having heard for them in their reasons and stuff it it's easier and smoother. I think if we Leader or of the water, and are they ever invited back to discuss they can. They can come tomorrow if they want, That's it's, uh, the only ones that we can say no to we, Uh, we I'm speaking for the commissioner. I'll speak for myself. I think it's really important to hear. From all of the charter officials and any department heads that want to be here. Um we do have a schedule that we will work to if they are not able to meet that schedule. We will try to accommodate them. Uh, according to what their schedule is, We did have at the last 11 commissioner who did not show up did not make time for us and that I think became an issue when we were briefing the commission and so I'm very motivated to not have that. Again. Um. So and the problem is , is if we hold up starting because they don't wanna come in early. Then we really we don't have anything to discuss. And, um. I had a I had asked, Uh, miss, uh, Jacobs to please get as you know, whoever scheduled early on the agenda that we can, and she got pushed back that they couldn't come. As early as we would have liked to have seen them because you know, they wanna do their preparation as well. So right now we have, uh, the mayor and the vice mayor a month from now. And that's all that. Is scheduled at this point. Um I. I just wanted to clarify. I have not gone to the commissioners yet. I wanted to After you know, hearing from the from the mayor and the vice mayor that they would like a little bit longer to get their stuff together. Um That's why I wanted to bring it back before you all to see, you know. May I? Um I. I would probably put a cut off date. And if you wanna say the end of June is that's plenty of time. They have the calendar. Uh they'll know that they could come on a on a Monday unless that unless that's too long, but , uh, as far as but between the and that goes through the, uh, department heads as well. They have the calendar they could. They could just give you a call. Or however they do it. Say OK, I'm gonna be. I like to make my presentation on the, uh You know, a week from today? And that way you fill up the calendar, and do we limit one or we could have multiple on on any given day. So um, that was just my suggestion, but but I would. I would have a deadline because that way after that date, it puts us it gives the onus on us to start putting everything together with their with everybody's suggestions, right if we're briefing the, uh, the commissioner, basically, we don't have September So we have to be done by, uh, end of August. And, um So if we're looking at the schedule, I think having a cut off makes sense. Unless somebody can't make it. We still really want to have their feedback. Um we do try to schedule them as soon as possible. Uh including department heads, we usually have a letter that goes out to the city manager asking if any department heads first have anything to come forward to, Uh, that's one thing if you have a section that you're working on, and if that department had hasn't come forward with any changes, if you are making changes to that section, you might call them back. There's been times when that has happened, then that that we would be able to schedule them for that. But we do try to do all the interviews or anyone who has Any changes. As soon as possible, because, like you said , by Sept, you know, even the end of August is a little too late because we're by that time we're already formalizing those things for the commission presentation. But Irene, when is the sister cities? True. Um that the, uh is from May 11th to may 21st. They will be where They'll be in, Um Ha Aina and then Hanya. So I mean, that's the that's legitimate but MM Kry, the Maybe we should look at this as in. Can you speak into your mic, please? I'm hard. I'm hard of hearing and it really helps me, John. Thanks. Hello? Yeah. Maybe we should look at this in terms of a little bit of a hierarchy. As the charter goes, there's the elected officials that then there's the charter officials. So I think if we emphasize that we want to do the elected officials and charter officials and then department heads like Mr Salzman is a charter. Official and Irene and the auditor and the city manager clearly is Going down the line, the most important People as far as input that I would look for. I mean, clearly elected officials first. But then work down the chart. I agree. We are reliant. On having those individual scheduled for us. And . I'd say I'd like I. I would be happy to have one scheduled every hour from three to from 2 to 5 o'clock from here on out for the next four weeks so we can get all their inputs and then get into it. I don't think that's gonna be reasonable. Um uh, Rather it's not that it's not reasonable. I don't know that we'll be successful at that. But we can ask, and then we go with the flow. And if we, for example, there are sections of the charter. We can work on without necessarily having Any disruption going forward because it's they're less likely to be Changed or impacted, and it might be that, uh, you know, it's not time lost if we go as an organization as a as our commission through the charter because we might wind up having our own questions that we can have answered when that official comes in. So I just I will I put forward to ask for Let's get as many in here as we can early on, so they can influence us. I unders or other provide their insights. Um to our discussions. Um I will ask again, um, to make sure everyone has read the charter. It's short. It's 20 pages. Um so you see the content that's in there. Um, after Finish this discussion. I thought I would go ahead right to chap to section 34 and review it. So we all understand what our role is and what the process is because it's in there and then we'll start from there. But, um Uh, The, uh. Having the opportunity to talk to the charter review. I'm sorry. The charter officials first is great if it can be done, um following that, with, uh Uh, department heads is great. Um I'm sorry. Elective officials and then, um, department heads and then you know any other individuals with public comment can come in really at any time. If they want to have time scheduled, I would suggest that they actually schedule it with you unless they are happy to have a four minute section at the end of the meeting. Um and I will Request that Is that satisfy I? I think if you Irene, if you ask the elected officials like for the next meeting, see who you can get for giving him an hour, right? Is that carry? Is that what you're saying? Give him an hour each and we give them However much time they need we will notionally say in our scheduling. If you can't say like next meeting, get some of the elected officials then get mark or the auditor or or somebody. And you know, fill in as it goes. That was my plan. Just that we could have the mayor here today and the vice mayor start with that. Minority. Sounds good. Appreciate that you went out and started that process. Um and so Um Let me summarize. Uh, we would like Have everyone in as soon as possible. Is that Is that a thought that is a is a Consistent with everyone on on the word thought. Yes I seen that nods around. Yes, sooner, the better. Um. Do we wanna, um, talk about Michael's deadline? Maybe instead of saying deadline , just put our request out that we would like to have all the charter officials or rather all all of the charter officials, the elected officials and the city. Um department heads who want to talk to us scheduled by the 10th of June if at all possible. Yes, I see you on. I have. I have no I try to create a deadline. I'm just trying to put the onus that there's got to be a AAA time that you know, either. Trying to get off the pot or not, And you, can it it should be. Because this is such an important Document giving us opportunity to do what we have to do. You don't want somebody scheduling in the middle of July. It was the 10th of June or the end of June. I. I just put out the 10th of June because I see Mr Cusk is away the next two Mondays. OK, I'm good with it. Hm I'm good with the 10 too. Yeah, so it's a request them to be be scheduled by then. If that doesn't happen, then we deal with it because we want everybody to have a voice, but we would like to get them in sooner rather than later or in an agreement with that statement . No problem. Can I one thing I have a little concern about asking department heads of account because the department heads could come in here and give us a Story that they've already covered with their Boss. Who said no, we can't do that. So we think it's a great idea. We're going to do what we can. We're creating a real problem for the city manager. Normally The city manager comes the Three charter officials for charter officials. The directors Oh, Because that's the that's the lot that runs a city. I don't wanna did. I did I So do I do I did I misspeak using the term department head as opposed to director. So you're talking, um fire and police Chief, are those directors you're talking about? Are there any other? There's a public works director. There's three or four you and that Usually we do an invite to the city manager who's over those directors or department heads. Um and then He would advise me who has responded to him. To come. Who has something to come before this commission? Works for Yes. So I, I we I. I agree with that. We all right with that. I just didn't want to foreclose the department director from having some significant ideas or input to be foreclosed on that, So, so in the past, it hasn't been department heads. Whoever is in charge of that department and has anything it goes with the invite goes to the city manager because we don't have not all departments have direct title directors. Some are department heads. He would He puts that out to his employees, and whoever has anything would come back and we would schedule that for the agenda. Mostly it's gonna be like planning and zoning procurement. Those that have stuff in the charter. Sometimes it might be. Someone has an idea or suggestion for the charter Revision Commission that and he does allow him to come forward. Yes cause I'd certainly like to hear them if they want to come forward if they do come forward. Carry. We need a motion in a second. For this. I don't know that that's necessary. This is Uh, this is these. These are requests. So, um All right. So, uh, Timing. Is of the essence. We? I think we understand now that I'm misused term department head. To, uh Indicate directors. So um, working, I mean, respect the position of city manager. He Is responsible for those individuals who will bring forward those who have ideas and comments for us to consider. Um but let's uh let's try to get it done and let's ask them to try to schedule it between now and the 10th of June if at all possible. OK? We need to Do anything else with that. You know what we'd like to see here, OK, Very good. All right, um. So our next agenda item is to start with a review and discussion of charter sections. I would like to start with a reading of section 34, which talks about this commission and what we do. Is there any issues with that? OK, um The section that covers the, uh Charter Revision Commission is on section 32 amendments. As this charter may be amended, as provided by section 1 66.0 31 Florida statutes. The board of Commissioners shall appoint a charter revision commission at least every five years to review the provisions hereof and to recommend any changes in this charter. By request of the board of Commissioners. The most recent Charter Revision Commission shall be reconvened. In order to render an advisory opinion regarding any interpretation of this charter. OK? I don't believe either of you have been on a charter review commission before, Mr Cus . Good to have you. Um Mr Penny, you have right. And you are our longest tooth in that regards, All right, So the bottom line is we are here to do our job. This summer to put forward recommendations as we Believe they should be made. Um however, once this goes to a vote, et cetera. The bottom line is Our job while we are not meeting regularly anymore. The board can call us back if they have a question on, uh Charter paragraph for the implementation or whatever they can call us back. To render, um An opinion. And as an advisory role, so the bottom line is, uh, this board's not replaced for five years, so in essence, you're on call for that period of time as long as you Continue to live within the city and meet the other requirements of being a charter Revision commission. Person. Um, Irene, did I get that right? Is that correct? Mr Salzman? Is that the proper reading? OK so I just wanted you to know that it's more than just this summer. Um I will also say that we did not get called back in the last five years. Have you ever been called back to render an opinion to your best of your knowledge? Any time they've called a group back? Yeah So anyway, it's written in there that they can We are, um You know, it is part of our responsibility, and I just wanted to point that out. Excuse me, I think Part of the rationale for what they're saying, is, is that if something came up They may wanna call us back and say We think this is better than what's in there? Because times have changed. What do you think? And if we agree It still goes back. To the public. But it's they're using our expertise. To run something new by us. So it's the only way to go. Really. It's I think it's What you're saying is absolutely right around the dollar. OK? I'm gonna read the next section. Now Such commission shall be composed of seven members and the affirmative vote of four such members shall be required to propose any change to this charter. So that means that four of us are missing. We cannot have an effective meeting because we cannot vote on anything. My interpreting that correctly, we wouldn't even have hold the meeting. That's that's what I mean. And that's one of the reasons why we had asked for schedules. OK such commission shall receive comment from the board of Commissioners, charter officials and the public and then transmit proposed charter amendments in ordinance form to the board of Commissioners for further comment. Um And this is the fascinating part. We will consider changes. If we are in agreement and we vote to make changes. Then it goes to the city attorney or their re their representative. To write it up. In ordinance form, which is, um The short language, right 75 words and a 15 word 25 word title or something like that, Or do you do this The longer the ordinance, which would include The answer is yes and no, the we would do an ordinance that would include the seven the language, the 75 words that you want in there, but the ordinance itself is much larger. It is longer. OK So what happens is that our comments get written up. And I believe in that you have the Y. Why the change is being made correct. We usually put that in the where, as The war as right Um, And then there's a 75 word summary that goes out to the public correct. And then there's a title for it. Which is the resolution, um, so in the ordinance would be longer and explain the whys and what you're doing the then it would come back once it's all approved and you know it would come back to the by resolution calling for the ballot language, and that's where you're gonna have the ballet language or have the questions itself that has 15 words for the title and 75 words for the actual question now, prior to that, once Be while you're working on that ordinance in final form. Um you're at the same time prior to the ballots or anything coming out. That's when the board would, we would put together a fax of each question. You have, um, that we would distribute in the water bills to the public. One that they know in an election and the facts about The questions. And thank you very much. Um so That's one of the reasons why By the time we get into August, we're starting to review a lot more material. And so that's why we really would like to get these officials in and talking to us because we're gonna be going fairly quickly through this. Um are the pace will depend on the material. And um we'll be coming back to revisit it. At several different times. As we review the attorney's writings and the questions and that sort of thing, So just it's not a It's not a one time through, but the more Agreement we can come up with early on. Especially You know? It gets disheartening to spend a lot of time and have to keep going back and changing. That's um, that that was the point. I wanted to make. Harry, May I ask Irene a question. Uh Irene, you said that all of this goes out with the water bills. I live in a condo complex. I don't get a Waterville. Well the majority will will do a mail or, uh, They'll probably be other ways as well. We'll post it online and to make sure the public has some knowledge of the Election and the questions Great. Thanks. OK so it will go basic. I think you said that it was at the third of September to the board of Commissioners. Uh, the first presentation to the board is the third of September September, and that is that's like basically considered like a kind of a draft and then have 30 days to come back to the board. Uh, before your first reading, which has to go verbatim, right? And that is an ordinance form by the time it gets to being presented to the board the first time correct. You can do it either way, But yes. Um So it wouldn't be the reading. It would just be the discussion right, But they need to have information that supports what we're presenting. So I would assume that for the most part, it would be whatever Version of maturity. Our ordinance statements are for the changes. Correct? Yeah, that point Then the board of Commissioners Shell within 30 days return the proposed amendments to the Charter Review Commission with its recommended proposals. So at that point, the board of Commissioners does not necessarily have to agree with what we have put forward. And they can come back with something different. Um Our goal is to have A coherent story. That's why we all wanna We wanna understand all points of view before we go forward to make our recommendations, however. You know that that may or may not happen. Um after review thereof, the Charter Review Commission shall make its own final report to the board of Commissioners in ordinance form, which shall be adopted verbatim by the board of Commissioners. OK and that means that they may give us differing opinions back. But if we believe we're we strongly recommend that we go forward with a change. Even if we don't have the board of commissioners support, we can do that. Um the board of commissioners shall within 100 and 20 days of such final report hold an election on the recommended proposal, and this is by the citizens of Tarpon Springs. In the same election, the board of Commissioners may sponsor its own proposals, including public initiative proposals, So in other words, if they are not in agreement, they can put their own. Um Uh, Proposed change in, um And then it's up to the it's up to our voters to decide which you know which way the city is gonna go. The referendum summary shall advise the public as to whether the proposal is sponsored by the charter reviews and commissioned by the Board of Commissioners or by public initiative in the event of any conflict among proposals, the proposal receiving the greatest number of affirmative votes shall prevail to the extent of such conflict. So That's What we are doing. We are going to review the charter. We are going to hear from a lot of people. I'm going to do the best we can. We've got a great representation from the city. And we have great history here on why the chart is written the way it is, and that's what we're going to do. Are there any questions? I would just like to revisit Jones comments that she Doesn't get a water bill. I don't either. It's a problem. So Notice. Is of great importance on on this. Um these charter changes that mean the charter is sort of like the Constitution for the city. So it seems like that we should, uh, take a minute and focus on what the greatest Penetration on notice would be and I can tell you that it's not posting it online. Because lots of people like Don't get water bills. Lots of people don't Look at post online. I mean to me, the only the most adequate is a direct mailer to each household that has a registered voter. And forget the water bills. Um you know, I know that if we have, for example, when we have elections, and we have a change in poll place we have to do, uh, one per household mailing. I know they're extremely costly. Um I know I. I was just saying for one example. Uh, you know, off the top of my head without looking back. It's been five years and we have many boards. We, uh Assist, So that was just one thing that I said through, But I know that in the past, we've tried everything. Um And maybe, uh, Mister, um Um Do you remember everything we had? Mr Cole in. I don't know if there's Anything else that you can remember that we did, but I know we try to reach as many residents as possible. John makes a great point. And what you're saying is basically what we've done and Unfortunately, when you're running for office, you have to buy a list of people who vote in the city. And you can even get it. Fine printed where it tells you who voted in the last two elections. But that info is out there and it is expensive and I know for you guys. It's Gonna be a hell of a job to do to get all of that out at the right time and in the mail and stuffed and what have you but I'm sure one Mark comes in here Services. There are services that do that. Also there is a way to do it, and so you don't have to do the hard work. Marsh just gotta come up with some money. And I'm sure he will. We explained it to him. That was something we haven't done in the past, but something we want to do now, and we can get a list together of all the means that we use now for the various things as well. I just I just don't have those at the top of my head. It's possible it can it can work. So I recorded that question How to reach voters who don't receive water bills. Um So , uh, I have that for the city manager for when he comes and talks to us so we can revisit that at that point. Um And of course, uh, the city clerk can take that back to For him in the short term. I like to go back to your section 32. Uh, the last sentence. When it talks about the greatest number of affirmative votes. Affirmative votes from who? The electorate. Then why do we could we put the language in the call it the electorate affirmative votes of the electorate. Well, it's a good suggestion. We're not reviewing that section right now . OK but but I'll make a note because that's above that refers to the referendum. I know that, but it's But you talk about the different, uh, the commissioner's public initiative . The board just to be, you know , uh, clear. Sometimes you add one word, and it just makes it clear that you're talking about the affirmative votes of the electorate. And I. I think they it gets more, um. Yeah, It's Yeah, one more word. And so that's a great example of the discussion that we will have. When we get to this next section , and then we would vote upon it. I re I would ask Irene for a roll call after it was motion second and discussed. I thought we were on that section. But I no, I just went out of order to read it. So we understood what we were, Uh, what our job was, I put a note. I did, too. So I captured it. Just in case. OK so , uh, with that any other questions about our job and what we're here to do? No. All right. Well then let's start on the first section. You didn't mention anything about Paige. Oh, I'm sorry. How much are we getting paid to do this stuff? We're getting paid in goodwill in We'll have to add that to the charter, we can, but anything we want in I don't know that That we'd get approved. You can vote an increase for Irene and Michelle. It would be a no brainer. Actually, that's um Budgeting is We would we That that's actually not part of our review here because that's part of the budgeting process that we talk about the budgeting process, but we don't get into that level of detail. Um so I just make that distinction. Um alright, so Irene has a note here as we go and start working on sections. Um we don't have any votes required until the we're going to finalize the section. So um, I'm gonna use a, uh, a very modified Robert's rules in other words, Uh, we read the section or we'll read a subs of the section depending on how how long it is. We'll have open discussion will identify any changes that need to be made . And then we move on from there is that acceptable? OK, all right. Section one Do I need to read this. No no OK, so it has to do with the creation of the boundaries. Um, have The boundaries of the city. Changed at all. And I did see that in the municipal Is it the one the one in the municipal code that had appendix A was all the geographic boundary specifications. And is that current or do we need to consider amendments to that, Or is that done through other ordinance changes? Um everything that's in Appendix A is every time there's a an ordinance for an annexation into the city limits that section that appendix a would get updated with the me Pounds. So in other words, appendix A is not considered part of our pre pre purview for reviewing that is correct within the charter document. You see Appendix, A Yes, right. That is correct. You would want you want to have something that can change without having to get a resolution Reum every time so that's why Appendix A is reference. Appendix A is something that can be changed without having to come back to you. OK and it's usually the legal description of that property that was annexed in Right? I made the mistake of printing out appendix. A Yeah, I got you that and I'm like, I don't have that much paper in my phone. I made a mistake of printing it out so good. Keep it handy. You never know. Mr T panning. You have a comment? Well as long as we're talking about Geographical areas. I just have a question for the city attorney, which is having to do with, um Annexations voluntary or involuntary. I know there was some state statutes change because the tarpon has a lot of enclaves. So I How can enclaves be addressed? If you wanted to? Is there an involuntary Annexation that you can do involuntary annexation. Um, but That's rare. I mean, because of the procedure and the costs associated with it. Mostly they're voluntary it we'll see that you know the D annexation issue more than anything. Um, usually, annexation is a you know, it's a voluntary thing, and everybody wants to come in for the city services. Um But we would see more of the D annexation than anything. Just just for the record. How? How do how does an involuntary annexation work? We have. It's basically a taking action. Um going before the courts and showing the justification for the city. Uh uh, assuming those property Um, and it There. There's a set of criteria. I mean, I can give you more detail. Um, submarine. That's right. Not easy. That's good. Well, III. I asked the question because Appendix A was called out in our charter documents. Um as well as there's and it's probably a question for, um, one of the directors of the city manager. There's Yeah. I see that we do a lot of services for the unincorporated part of Tarpon Springs versus um the incorporated and what what is that relationship, But that's probably better left those. I'm sorry. Some of those are just subject to agreement. Uh, You know the unincorporated area especially when you're going down Keystone, Um, that area and there's been Voluntary attempts for annexation and some of those areas. Also if somebody wants to utilize city services at this point are required to do an annexation of petition to annex as a requirement, if they right, But their problem is when you're the third Property in Yeah, that's out. But if you're if you're the border if you border the city limit, and you need Water or sewer, and you're getting it from the city. It's a requirement that you you petition for annexation. But those are voluntary annexation because they want that they're voluntarily coming into the city . Under the understanding they have to. They have to. Yes they have to. But it's still the voluntary request versus involuntary. OK, so Does anyone have? Uh Concerns with the way this paragraph or section is written. I just find it extremely odd that It refers to appendix a of the charter. Our role is to review the charter. And yet we don't have appendix a here you pass it down. Descriptions there. Yeah, that's asset. That's all Appendix A is so it's it. It describes where the boundaries are. And if you really were going to review it, all we would have is somebody come in and tell you those are the legal Right, So that's the only way you could have it. That's OK. I don't need money. Yeah, there. There's nothing being hidden here. It's just seems odd. Um you would need an engineer's ruler and a surveyor and surveyor right now. And try to make out OK, So are we definitely Are there any concerns with how the section is written? A move that we accept session one is presented. If we vote on it, are we able to come back to it? I'm sure you absolutely can always come back to any section that OK, so we have a motion and we have a second, um, any further discussion. Uh, Miss Jacobs, May we have a roll call? Oh, I'm sorry, I. I am apologize, Doctor, Gus. Uh, yes, Ms. Jennings. Yes, Mr C? Yes. Uh, Mr Chair Panny. Yes, Mr. Yes. Yes, doctor. Yes. And chair if I could just make a comment One of the reasons why you have that ability to go back is because you are going to be hearing from different, uh Charter officers and different individuals on suggestions and you may trigger something that you want to go back to and change. Um so you always have that ability. Otherwise we would really be in trouble with people come Late and you've already gone through those sections. Agree. Um. Since this is city property. I am gonna make a note that we had, uh, questions on Appendix, a. With the clarification. That we do not review that. And we had a question on voluntary versus involuntary annexation. And with the result No change to section. Was there anything I missed here? OK, moving on. Oh wow. Another biggie. Yeah, flying here. All right. Section two. To I just for council a question if, uh, the language that's here. That's statutory. That's that pretty much. What the Florida statute. Uh think so. It's not Verbatim statutory. I do not believe This is local stuff. I know that but certain, like, uh, certain powers granted to municipalities. That is correct. Our our our per statute . Yes The general Yes, You are correct. The time frames and things that can be modified to fit the community. There's no time frame on here. It just says this is what are you looking at? I'm looking at most powers powers under, uh 20 you You're at two. I was looking at limitation of power. Well, the other thing about this is that as you know, um, home rule is being Taken away. Almost every Session. They're taking more more sibil or abilities from use . So this is obviously subject to those provided by law, which changes. Yes. These would be this would be the general language and I Would I would? I don't know, if anything that you would add. I Mm. Yeah I didn't take it as being tied to a specific date. Um It seemed to be, uh, fairly open now in existence or that may hear after be passed. So it seemed that for me that this was keeping up in time with the what's happening. The mistake. It's pegged against the state that right. A move that we accept Section two powers as written second. Um any discussion and I will follow that up with, uh, Mr Koko. Is there a change here that you'd like to make clarify, OK? That The language. Even you know, there's not much you could change that would Uh, No. Other than Like way something red. But That this was statutory. Okay. Thank you. Any other, uh, discussion or comment? No OK, Um , this, uh menos? Did I pronounce your name correctly? Can you help me? Venus Manas. OK Miss Manus is, uh, could you give us a roll? Call then? Yes, Miss Jennings. Yes, Mr Mr Chair. Penny Yes, Mr Cole? Yes, Dr B? Yes. I'm going to put a note here that we discussed. Uh uh. Confirmed, Uh, That we Following current state statutes. Is that good for you? Or compliant with state statute. OK So what I wrote, is confirm that this paragraph allows the city of Tarpon Springs to be compliant with Florida State statutes. ST, a UT stat CATUTESATUTE. Yeah, I didn't think it would look with an extra T. Thank you. OK final along limitation of powers. Let's start with Uh, This is one of the longer sections for today. It's actually one page. Um. Are there any Questions, comments or things we want to talk about. In general on the section. I do have a comment. Um, when you get to It puts a purchase price less than 350. Because the charter is reviewed every five years. There should be some type of adjustment on an annual basis, whether it's a dollar amount or percentage that authorizing the city to, Uh uh uh, purchase less than whether it's 5% annually increase $10,000 a year increase. This was quite contentious last time. Well we're not asking III. I look at this. Not as a great increase, but no, it needs I mean the cost, you know, real estate. The Charter Review Commission initially went to the board with a significantly higher number and I won't go into the details on that, but it got knocked back down. Um I would like to consider getting rid of a number and base it on something else that could be indexed. No. Yeah. I have a pretty strong philosophy on that. Personal philosophy. On the whole charter is to me. The charter is Protection for the residents. It's not the facilitate The ease of the commission. The ease of the city administration. It's to protect The public. So I can tell you that the purchase Of property. Is the one control that you need to leave in the hands of the public and I'll tell you why. Because A lot of other communities that had, uh Bigger numbers to buy a piece of property. It's not the purchase of the property that creates the problem. It's what goes on it. So if you keep somebody from My in 1020 acres. To build $100 Million Stadium. And you've probably done a good thing for the community. So my thing is, is you need to Tie the hands. Of the elected officials and the city administration to where they and the other part is you want to encourage. Um Participation of the residents in their government. So the one way you increase participation is to have a referendum. On an as needed basis or added, Add the question to a regularly scheduled election, so I mean, I'm I mean, it may pass, but I'm I'm not gonna vote to increase the limit myself or take it out. Um reasons. And that's why we have seven opinions here. II I don't I don't disagree with you at all. The only thing is there's a number there and if you're looking at the chart every you know every five years. Whether cost of living 350 today. May not be 355 years from now, as far as it so You know? So you're you're you? You You increase it based on something, And I'm not saying uh uh A large number, but I think 350 today's arena. Um This. This provision should should allow for some flexibility, uh over time and not You know the 10,000 a year is it? 5% Um, cause property values do you're giving you're giving the city the opportunity to buy property at 350? Regardless. And the thing is 350 today. What about 353 years from now or four years from now or or look at it from the perspective of five years ago? What would 350 buy you versus sweater? It buys you today and when the number initially went in at 250 83, what was the purchasing power at that point? Um I. I think that the, um I had a I 100% agree with you. Well, the charter used to say A long time ago. That purchase of property required a referendum. And it didn't matter what the cost was. I mean, The parking lot that was bought between LA Tourist property in the in the And the, um trip trip, the railroad track property was owned by the feral family was $26,000 in winter referendum. The piece of property that expanded That Jim and I worked on together that expanded Craig Park from Beekman Lane to the to the East. Increased it by about 30% I. I forget what we paid. It was Nominal 50 or $60,000, but What I'm saying is, if it's a good idea that the public is gonna pass it, so I'm not concerned about this isn't an apartment where I'm concerned about getting Um, I'm looking to cover Higher electric bill. Higher Insurance bill Higher Tax bill. I mean, so I'm not concerned about it. A, um Cost of living or escalation, like I'm concerned about voter participation in tying the hands of the commission. All good points. Um I from my perspective . I look at the time it takes To actually execute. Um, a referendum. And how many Opportunities will be lost if That is what's required to go forward. And I don't think that the numbers we're talking about. We're talking about acres and acres for stadiums. And I mean That was just an example. Carrie Well, no, but I mean, you were making a point. I'm I don't think that's the point. We are considering here. Um, we've had Uh, many. Properties discussed in the last three years that I Most of them have had to go to referendum based on the purchase price. And um if or the per I mean, what is the cost of referendum at this point? If we were to go out for one, I remember the last four years. I mean, five years ago, it was, uh, $40,000 or something like that. It's a little higher than that. But uh, for stand alone. It is a approximately This is just the county's cost is about $40,000. That's not counting the city's cost for Everything else. Legal ads. Uh Mailers. Things like that to households. But Irene, do we? We have an election. Just one year. We don't have an election. Right We have a city election every year. Um no. Every uh, we have a election every two year. You know, for two years in a row, and then we have an off year because we have three year terms now now, the only other time the only difference is in the past, the county was able to support elections at various times. Now they could only, uh, support If it's our own election or if there's a scheduled election. So like now, in August, we're piggybacking on what the county because, uh, we'll be able to do that. But if it was during another, you know the first question would be if they can support an election if it's something had to go to referendum. So I don't think it was clear on my I wasn't clear on the answer. The How many times so every third year you have a no new election that's correct. Unless we have a special election. So On year one and two. You have an election year three. You don't year four and five. You do. That's correct. 96 So, John. So what I heard you say is the 350 in there. Your objection is not An annual increase or cost of living increase. Or whatever you wanna call it. Uh, your objection is That there should be a requirement. Whatever that dollar amount. Did I think the 350 adequate at this point, but but but But there's that your your argument is that there should be a dollar amount that requires a referendum. Yeah, they've got 350. I'm saying if you go to Above that. You. You have to But you, don't you? Don't You disagree with it like a, uh, whether it's an annual Increase to that 350. I don't think it's necessary, Mike because you're not paying taxes. You're not paying insurance. You're not paying a light, bill. I mean, your costs aren't going up. Really? It would cost of real estate is going up. Some years. It does some years. It doesn't. I mean, you know anybody who watches it. It's like a wave. You know, the only the only eight Then it could, then they wouldn't have to. They wouldn't have had to break that threshold. They wouldn't have to be referendum, but but as that's not go back there, But as prices do, escalate, and you know you you're the real estate business. I dabble in it. Not as well as you do, but But, you know, we've seen prices to escalate and some of them are are the escalations are beyond I could say reasonable but they are what they are. And so yeah. Giving your Your commissioners are their city manager. You know some flexibility in the cost of living if you want to call it the cost of living or increases in real estate. Um You know with with, you know, based on that 350. I don't. I don't think it's unreasonable but Um But one of the things that going off in a little bit on a tangent has always been a concern of mine is When The person selling property knows what the city could spend. That's what the price is. Check Check out, uh, mi mirrors in the Sanford. So that's what the price is. So that's always been an issue with me, but but it's gotta It's gotta be. It's gotta be in your charter, but that's you know, how do you Mike is, if it were me, I could live with zero, but but you don't. You don't wanna go to election every time the city wants to desire to do that. Yeah. I mean, personally, I. I With zero so, Carrie, Um, just give you an example. Say that the town wanted to build a parking garage. Or or some Um Well, that's a that's a reasonable example. Yeah I mean, so you buy the property for five or $600,000, and it's an $8 million parking garage. Those are the things that I think that That's why I'm against raising it up and those things Well. From my perspective. I think that we vote our Elected officials in And then we have to be careful how much we want to micromanage their decision making process. And this is an example where we're saying, Well, we trust you with every other part of government, but we're not gonna trust you to, um Take opportunities to acquire green space to acquire municipal land that could possibly be needed to, you know, address the future needs of the city as it as it comes. We're gonna require you to go through a process that could be a year or longer and the property may no longer be available and I think it's really hard tying our our city commissioner. Think about this. You're you're you're thinking. In my opinion is like you're electing angels. I. I can't hear you. You're my You're You're electing angels, OK? And what I'm saying is, the charter should be built for the rogue. Commission. To prevent the rogue commission from from harming the city. Well what you're doing Well, I think what your opinion is, is that you're you're writing this for the Red Commission and telling them well , you can't build roads unless you get votes on that. Oh, not Road Commission. Rogue Rogue, ROGUE. Um well, that is always the consideration. And do we write a charter to be, you know a disaster or do we write a charter for the city to function as it should function it can. It can function at the Same time that it prevents Rogue. Uh uh, boards. In my opinion, I don't think we're preventing much. I mean, I think we're preventing an awful lot with the $350,000 number. I. I haven't seen the city lose anything. Yeah, that's I mean, can somebody tell me what they lost? By having a referendum. I know, but but but I will say, I've looked recently at what the percentage of people voting in elections in municipal elections is, and it's extremely low, and I think most of the people voting in those elections , especially for referendums, which is even lower than for municipal elect, regular elections are probably people with a particular interest in something, so I don't think it's just the general public. I think you I think those referendums are not going Get the widest number of votes. I think the elected officials have a wider range of the voting public, and I don't think there's anything horribly wayward about this or 350, but I think, but things have gotten incredibly much inflated in the last decade or two, and it does seem to me there should be some mechanism to keep it with the times, you know, in sort of a low level, reasonable way. The other thing is, is that if you look at the maturity of our town we don't have or other our city. We don't have As much. Land. Available that's not developed. We don't want I mean, we are you know, we we're we're getting pretty full here. And things are gonna get more expensive and if things come available, uh I think it's important to be able to match a buying opportunity with things that are in our strategic plan, et cetera without. I mean, we have a lot of, uh, checks and balances now in terms of how the city is supposed to operate. That is supposed to also be AAA counterbalance to a rogue commission. I mean, we have a budget. We have a strategic plan. We have other things like that that are Place to guide the operation of our local government. And I just think that this is this is one case where you're imposing a micromanagement. Um on it by having such a small number. I haven't heard. Little confused over the whole thing, because it's Today. 350 is not a lot of money. But last year it was so my worry is what What is everybody's worry here. I We're talking about earlier referendums, OK? If you're going to spend If the city Commission. Just looking to buy something they have to go to a referendum anyway. They They can only spend so much money without going out for. You have to prove what they want. That's this number. That's this number. As for a some less than 350. Yeah so then not anything great than 350 referendum. So say if they found a piece of property for 351, it has to go to referendum. And we all I all I'm suggesting is that that Number be adjusted on an annual basis. Upward whether it's a 5% you know, so if you look at it at or, you know, $10,000 a year in in five years, the next charter review it'd be at 400,000. So, um You know, I'm I'm sitting here because I don't know what's come up lately. In the last year or The last 10 years that even falls into this we've had That we've had a referendum. On the purchase of property and we've purchased property right under the 350. So we've done both. Both have occurred within the last 12 months. Yeah you bought a piece for a million eight that they bought a piece. They you fire it. Is going. They bought that for from from me. And that was under the three. Yeah, well, because we put it at the end of the 350 so we could sell it. So we've done both. We actually So what's your? What's talking about is I want you explaining to me is that It works the way it is. You did each side you did both ways. And it worked. I where we can can can say, Where's the, uh, What I'm worried about is I can't. Put a percentage in there guaranteed. They're just gonna be raised the area the only two legal issues, I would tell you. Are That, um Sometimes when you're purchasing a piece of property Uh, the referendum Time period could be considered by the seller too long. That is one of the considerations from a legal perspective that when you put in there because remember when you're purchasing property, uh by municipality, you always put it first subject to the board's approval. So number one. We have to negotiate something and get board approval. Uh for the final number and then number two. We have to get subject to approval of a referendum. Well some people don't want to wait that long. That's one of the legal issues we run into. Um regarding that we missed that because they don't want to wait that long. It's an issue. I'm not saying that it happens right exactly. Decision I put more water in also has the right to offer some incentives to a seller to wait like charitable gift contributions. An appraisal that comes in right and I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying saying that the other Issue. The other issue is What Irene was talking about. Is the cost. Of an of a referendum. If we cannot get We Out of sequence right that there is a legitimate cost and it is keeps going up. I'm I'm gonna give you just the cost, but that they support the Let me give you let me give you a scenario. True scenario. We sold this. We sold the prop. We actually had the property listed for a lot more than what the city bought it for. OK and the city wanted it bad because that's where they were going to put their fire station. There's they they fire station was falling apart. Now. We got an offer for a lot more. Then. Um than the referendum amount and not from the city from another party. We ended up reducing our price so we could sell it to the city because we decided we wanted to sell it to the city. And if I was making a business decision, I would have sold that property to somebody else, and the fire station would have to figure out something else to do out there. So giving the city the flexibility to bump up the price A little bit via the, um And I think that back then the charter was 250. It was 250 so giving the city the flexibility to offer a little bit more money because they charter allows them to based on increased in value. Over the course of a year. I think you're you're You, You know, like you said, a business man's got to make a business decision. If I'd made a business decision, the city wouldn't own their property. So they could aim in a domain. Well they tend not to do they tend not to do that they would have I would have made a lot more money. I would have made a lot more money on eminent domain. We're talking. I know, but we're talk. I would have made a lot more money on em Domain. OK so the reason I'm putting this in I looking at an increase is to give the city some flexibility because, like you said, things are getting are not getting any cheaper. If the things go the other way, then the city doesn't To pierce that 350. You know, Um Jim, before we make a decision based on, uh And data that's actually get the data. Let's see how many you know Since since this 350 got put into place five years ago. Let's see how many properties we were we purchased versus how many had to go to referendum and how many had to go to referendum that we that the city had to pay for. I think that Yeah, that's that's fine with me. And my only other problem was worrying about. $40,000 Anybody want to say how big the city budget is? That's peanuts. It's cost of doing business, So we're talking about the cost of doing business. And now we're talking just the opposite. Come on, guys. Go forward with it, get some more information. Because nobody's convinced me it's it needs to go up at this point. That doesn't mean I I'm I do change my mind A lot of times, Carrie, could we also find out the properties that were purchased why they were purchased? You know, like Mike was talking about, you know, a piece of property that was acquired for a new fire station, which is kind of essential man. Can you take care of that for us? Mark can provide us that information That would be easy. You know, it would be a great condition. Great Great interview with him talking him about this specific issue rather than us doing it and changing it, thinking and hoping and the rest of it. We'll be here for a while. Yeah, Yeah, come back. So I would I would make the question which properties were purchased. Above and below the limit and which ones were lost because of The time required to go for referendum and what were the uses. The other thing about loss that you may want to find out from Mark, and I don't know the answer to this, Uh, the consideration of which properties just weren't We're just looked over, you know, passed up because there was no Time frame, right? Or there was so Mark may be able to add that in other words, the city would have liked it. But they knew it would take too long or whatever. Yeah, that was considered question. That's a that's a good comment, So let's let's be data based on this and really understand what the impact has been. But keep in mind too. Public participation in their government. That's a big deal. II I agree. It's a big deal. I mean, that's why we are here. No. But I'm saying the referendum is a voter participation, a public participation that's all. I won't say any more. Would it be possible to know what percentage of voters are actually voting on the referendum on the properties? Yes. Can we have that data too? Thank you. I mean, If the participation is very low. If it's I don't know that putting all properties through if it's if it's referendum is going to bump up that number it. If it's low, it's be it. That means it's low on everything because I don't think most of these referendums were at Elections that had other than buying property in order to mitigate the cost of the election. Right Irene, right, so the bottom line is that is that you had other things bringing the voters in so that the participation number likely would have been lower. Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying no, no, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is If the number is low, it just shows that we have a community that's not as engaged as it should be in in participating. I mean, if you have an election where you have Um An election of officials and you also have on there just an item to buy a piece of property and the numbers are low. It's that people are just not participating. But a T least Why penalize the ones who do want to participate? Might not give them a chance, I guess is what I'm saying. I mean, reward the people who are participating. Not not, uh, penalize them. Just talking philosophy. You know, just I should have the voter breakdown by question or by racer. OK, thank you. Well, that'll be an interesting set of data and I will emphasize there are more ways to participate in the government than just buy a vote on a referendum. Oh, sure. We're participating now, OK? Mhm. So there can be voices at public meetings there can be Um, participating on boards There can be, uh, there's lots of ways to have a voice in this government. That was my only comment in Section three. That was it. That was it. You don't wanna make another one. I'm good right now, OK? Those a good comment. I was something I thought we should discuss anyway. Um that's not the last time we're gonna sit up here and Bud hit that's gonna be that's gonna that's gonna be more. That's very good. And I enjoyed the, uh, the spirited discussion is what gets us to a very good charter. Absolutely so and I expect that this is one the charter officials will wait in on as well. Um I remember from the last time it was pretty expensive. Very vocal. OK, so. I'm gonna note that we had a discussion on it was item H. Was that 350 raised when you and Jim were on the last charter is that when it was raised It was raised from 250 to 350 at the last one. The re charter Review Commission and suggested 750. You guys are scary. Mhm. I said, you guys are scary back then that that's why it's better to put an escalator in there that high level than uh than raising the number. They spend whatever they got. It's Um, I'm getting used to this. We did this once before, So we've requested. Um the, uh, the, uh, info. And the numbers of properties. You may wanna put it as far as a question, Uh, for Mark is have there been properties at the city has overlooked like the council said, because of, uh Right referendum requirements. Yeah this one's kind of a long, long statement. Let me just get get it going here because of the information and numbers of properties purchased by city. Um uh, basically and you know, price. Well, then we have something like the, uh, you know when the Marine Commerce Commission made a strong recommendation To the board of commissioners to purchase the SPOIL site and they didn't do it right. And they I think they've paid lease payments now that have been in excess of what the purchase price would have been. Your brother to us. That would have been all right. You. You know, I'm just sitting here thinking we're talking about trying to get Staff to come in and speak with us. Is this something where you want to ask the city manager to come in? At our next meeting. Let's talk about this age. I mean, we can bring him back. I mean, he can He can bring what he wants to change along with it, or he can come in and It was Mike that decision. OK so when I'm writing down here is discussion on item H regarding the 350,000 have requested information on the numbers of properties purchased by the city. The their price where the referendum and the use of that property plus property is not purchased due to referendum process. And those properties the cities chose not to consider Because of referendum. Did I capture it? Mhm That may be a analytic they don't have, but I think, uh, they be able to keep some insight. What we may be able to insight. Good to get somebody usage in your listing property usage. Yeah, I have usage. OK, thanks. Um thank you for your comments. Your insights your opinions, I think, uh, they're all Important to be considered. I'm not gonna ask for a vote on that. Because at this point we need I believe we need more information to continue with the discussion. Are we in agreement with that? Agreed? Yes. Yes, OK, moving on. Section four Police Department Or take about two hours. It's a joke Actually, I think that one only took about an hour. I. I, you know. Not I don't see a change on that with what's interesting is, um To me there. The This is like the major statement on the police department. Um And it's just a limitation. And with the commissioners. Basically they can't eliminate it, and they can't replace it without going for referendum. Um Is that the, uh You know, this was put in. It looks like 95. Was there ever an intent? Well the day did that the need and did that they had They even had its own police force and decided to go county and the pro and the issue as far as as far as residents are concerned, is You know, the sheriff's department is more reactionary in the city police departments. Well, proactive, uh and so the concern was that you would have, you know, just law enforcement out there when you call them instead of being proactive in the community, and this community chose. The reason that was put in there is that we want to maintain They didn't want to do what Dunedin did. And we wanted to make sure that that, uh, our our being, we have our proactive city. Police force . No I think it's important. We are located at the far North end of a community and we've already seen the impact of that based on you know, our our public bus. Transportation services are are, um Transportation, disabled services, et cetera, et cetera, so we don't want to wind up having fire and police services that are delegated to the city that we don't get adequate service on that time, like Mike said Du even did it. They It appeared. To us as a community. The Dunedin was making Uh, Policing. Financial decision and the community said. The business community went to the commission and said, Look, that's not what we want. We have beat cops. We have people in the community that are part of the community. It's more. It's more than just about dollars and cents. It's about type of service levels of service and things like that. And I think that when that was changed the police department, in in my opinion has has lived up to the confidence we put in him. Oh I. I have to agree. Now My only comment on this is that I was surprised that we had a limitation on the board of commissioners. That was a Paragraph unto itself associated with police department. That's why it happened. We also have the exact same thing for the fire department, And it would make more sense to me in terms of how a requirements documents written to have a section that says limitations on the board of commissioners. And then those things get listed, um that that that was the extent of the comment Not whether or not we should if you want to consolidate something, if you think we ought to consolidate it , I'm OK with that. Um, II. I don't have an issue, but I think If I'm wrong, The fire department is a is different in that they have, uh, different agreements, etcetera. And there's some county in, uh, interface. Um, correct me if I'm wrong, that that Combining it may You know, uh, keeping it in a separate category because I think things are governed more of a. There's a county agreements, et cetera. That Uh, if you if you just pigeonhole it into that one Section it it, uh you may not have the flexibility if you read the next section. It's basically the exact same words except police departments. I know I know that, but there's a I think there's a reason and help me. Uh, they're also looked at differently honestly, and there are some financial ramifications, uh, that that do occur for some municipalities. Um, and they're treated differently. So some financial issues. Some will address with the police department, in some places will address it solely with the fire Department. You are a unique situation because you are at the end of the county, but you do have contractual obligations with, uh um police. And with other agencies. And with the, uh fire, especially, um, mutual aid is very big in fire departments. Uh, And so those contracts are different. Plus, remember if you're going to make those changes. It has to go to referendum, and I'm not sure that's one of the ones you necessarily want to do. Uh for a reference. I was just, you know, trying to understand why they would have been stated as a limitation. You know, Because this this is this. Really This has nothing to do with the police department. It has to do with the fact that the board of Commissioners cannot eliminate that without a referendum, right? And that's the justification that that I believe was already said that people want to have their their own there. There is a cost, of course associated with that. No I don't have a problem with the statement. I really I found that the organization of the document with this is as if you notice they were done by on Time period . We were they discussing a one time doing a county fire fire. That's what they were discussing , and that has gone definitely the other direction when they took the over their the big rumor mill was that they were going to take the whole county for police. They were not, and the commissioners down County treated us like we were Not real bright like they do now. They've promised us a bridge for the last seven or eight years that never gets built. They wanted tarpon to be part of county and we fought it and we put this in here so they can't ever have us and it's. It's a very good statement. However if you go to our table of contents, we have incorporation and former government we have the creation of the boundaries. We have powers. And then we have limitation and powers. And then we've got these two paragraphs on Police Department Fire Department, which is a limitation of powers. That it just surprises me that that is not incorporated as a subsection under limitation of powers because all you're doing with this paragraph is limiting the powers of the board of Commissioners. Yes, I don't know this to be True part of it. I know to be true. The first part on the limitation of powers was done up at one time, and subsequently there were, um Charter changes. And whoever the attorney was at the time instead of Incorporated into limitation of powers. It has made a separate chapter. I mean, that's what I see. I mean, And that's what I see. I mean it just It. It fits better somewhere else, Just as long as we can. I figured that, uh, you know you can. We can ask Mr Salzman to look and see if we can slide it into the limitation of powers if you want. I'm good with it. As long as it stays. I actually like the fact that they're separate. Yes, because they get because you don't know what's going to change in those areas. Well, there's your answer. But that's that's not. That's just a personal. No, that's fine. And that's like you said. That's a hell not worth fighting, but by putting it in a referendum. But well, Gary, you're right. I mean, just it bothers me as someone who has organized books that this is not a proper organizational thing. It should be limitation of powers property and then maybe limitation of powers, You know, organizational or something, And I think if you were drafting the charter As opposed to making changes that makes 100% sense. But but you're making to make changes. You have to bring it to a vote. And on some of these issues. If they're just something along those lines, I would tell you it's probably Not something that you necessarily. I mean, we when you make these changes you really want to emphasize what? What you're changing, and why and the real need that that you feel that the city needs to do that. And so while I agree with you, Um if we were drafting a How we would write it, but it's harder when you're making the change. So we have to go to questions. So then perhaps, uh, I mean for me the chapter three or se section theory should be better defined as limitations of powers regarding real estate. Four should be the limitation of powers regarding police Department and five should be limitation of powers regarding fire department. You are correct, that is really what they are. OK? But as I said the one Some of these adoptions were done at different periods of time. And that's just how they came about. The thing is, if you let's say you wanted to broaden Section three and get beyond just real estate. Then you're gonna be created You, you you leaving Section three in place limitation of powers, even though it says real estate If you pigeonhole it in the real estate that it has to do with real estate if you decide at a or a future limitation of powers. You can exactly span expand Section three to incorporate. Other limitations. So With with without changing the name. You could do that. If you change the name to real estate that you're gonna create another section. Well, we have we have, you know, for the future. Uh, we got two other reserve sections and they could say I have comments for six and seven. And the Reserve Bank. OK I was going to say you could have other limitations that that you know that then the era of going to Um Point well made. Who would think one sentence. We call it Well, this bothered me five years ago. It bothers me now, And if I'm ever on this board again, it's gonna bother me in the future. So this is purely about me. No, it's not. Um All right. I like to see these titled appropriately. Think Say the attorney made a good points about Not changing it simply The number of times it's been passed, It's going to cause more question and more doubt. Than anything else. I'll go wherever where? Anywhere the door going to go. Well, going back to Mike's point. If you Make it real estate. You're kind of limiting it. You know, and it's really more for formatting purposes rather than substance. That would be I agree with that. That's a that's an event. It's a uh uh Right? Look you could make that recommendation and you could pass that and I The only recommendation I would make to you is perhaps revisit that after you've determined what you are going to change for argument, you revise the 350. And you want to call it change the name. They turn it down. Return guy because they turned down the down The whole of. That's a good point. It could happen because it's gonna You didn't need it to be a big accident. They're not sitting here with us going through this trying to understand it. They're just reading it and saying 000 no. So, Section five. We live in Section four. I've left it for now. OK we're coming back. We have to come back to three. So the question is, do we? Uh are we going? Uh, Attorney, Salzman suggests we see what other changes we've got, and then come back and look at whether or not it's worth changing. If we got a lot of other changes that are more important. We skip it if it winds up We don't have very many changes to go forward with. Well, maybe we fix the format of the document. So if you want you want temporarily to you don't want to. You want to build on Section five? No I just want to make a comment that I'm gonna basically put the same note that the question was raised regarding changing a title for a limits of power regarding Fire Department So that being said, You want a motion for Section five? No because I don't think we're ready to make a decision based on attorney Salman's comment. But for the record It seems like everyone's OK with the language and Section four and Section five. Yes OK, so we want to make sure that's on the record the language within the section, the spine. The question is, this is the structure of the document. As implied by the title. So you want a motion as to the language? No, I don't want any motion right now because we're going to come back and revisit it. If we don't have If our review process Um is does not have an extensive list of changes that we're making, if we have an extensive list of changes we don't want to throw Maybe less important things into the mix. We want to keep the focus on the more important things. The that's my suggestion . The easiest way and I wrote on the top of mine for the police and the fire. Come back. Let's come back and figure out later. You get messed up with One. OK? Anyway Those are those are two minutes sections when I get forward any comments on the reserve section section seven. Mr C, I'm you're OK. I think less is more. OK, so we're now we're off to Section eight. We A commissioner's composition, duties, responsibilities and powers. And by the way, thank you for being able to project this, Um M Technologies. Could you leave it like that? Because the prints a little bigger. I'm sorry. The way you just had it The prince a little bigger. Let's see. Thanks. Now she can close off the navigation panel and adjust it with the slide margin on the bottom corner. OK? Oh, Right there. All right. Do we have any Questions and I have a comment. Yes, I mean, is that OK? Uh for age and I Uh, reviewing every three and update every three fiscal years. All elements of the comprehensive plan and then of the strategic Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah I'm not sure. Three years is realistic. Yeah I had put a note five. I have the same for sure. Yeah it's you'd meet yourself coming and going. Yeah well, and if you look how long the process has already taken It's already been a year that they've just been reviewing it so I agree. I agree with you. Yeah. Ironically, I had to save note. I have the same thing here, too. Um And the other thing is, uh, do we have any additional plans that should be addressed? Do we have a long term? Fiscal plan I. I know that there's a number of plans that we've got. I thought there was more than just the comprehensive panel and the strategic plan. I thought there was additional I can't remember. No, I don't know all of them. That might be After the planning. I don't know why I thought there was another plan. That can be a question for the city manager. There is a question about the board of Commissioners acting as the Community Redevelopment Agency board. It's pretty standard. Was pretty usually what you see right? OK? I have another comment in that section. When once Get a chance. Mhm. Carry some. OK question. So almost all of these when we start getting the, um elected officials in the charter officials in We're gonna revisit most of them, right? I'm sorry I heard regarding the charter officials. Are we going to do sections like Section eight? Yes Are we gonna come back and revisit them? What? What I'm saying, we are going to revisit them when we have these other people comment, OK? Yeah the reason. I. I think it's OK to go forward. It's just that let's let's see where we are right now and that'll help us put our questions together for the other officials like I'm keeping some sticky notes I'm throwing in here. Um, so that we Make sure that Our questions that come up in discussion get addressed. Um As opposed to kind of Trying to come up with them in real time, so It's this is this whole process is the chicken and egg kind of thing. We wanna have the , uh, individuals come in to talk to us about their concerns, But in the meantime, we really need to be knowledgeable in order to know what we're we need to ask them as well. So that's why we're kind of Going fast. Through this just to see where we are and where we all had concerns based on our first reading. OK so I have another another comment on on this section. Um But OK to talk. Do it now. I'm sorry. Is it OK to do it now? Yeah Yeah, OK, Please do so when you get to We talk about, uh and I think it's J. To when it talks about, uh, appointing boards, et cetera. And it says only city residents may serve on city boards, committees or other bodies designated appointed to perform some service or function. Uh to, I would probably want to include to prioritize applicants that have special expertise in that area. We have a lot of talent in this community and to the extent that there's there are talented people who who, Uh uh, wanna sit on the board? Um That I think the city should prioritize those applicants over John Doe that lives down the street. Thank you. That's a good thank you. Yes No, That's a really good comment. There's um Just to expand on what Mike said. And just make make take some language from the city attorney, But the city is AC LG comprehensive local government. OK, the store Preservation board. By statute or or something. Andy is, um supposed to be Com comprised of professionals in in the field Architects, contractors, Um Planner is people with expertise. The city. His Hardly ever. Ever followed that. I mean, it's Me. They're jeopardizing their status as a CL OG, which really gives the city a lot of, um positive benefits when they go to grants they get Extra points for being a CL G. There's lot lots of benefits to be in AC LG. So if we're gonna make to Mike's Comments. And this Mr Salzman is That maybe that we put in there that they have to follow the rules when they make these appointments. Um, II. I Love that we're having this discussion particular about historic The historic preservation part. Um first off the CLG. I think happened. I The It was a long time ago. We We've had it for a long time. We we is there. Any renewal of that? Is there continuing education that has to happen? I've noticed that you know, we've lost a lot of the people that had gone through that training. You know this, the CLG the part that I'm talking about? Carry is the makeup of the board. But I think there's a bigger concern. And I think you've you've you've you've brought up one part that addresses the board. Um and, uh That's really important, However, um Let's not forget the fact that, um I mean, be be polite in how I state this. While you're thinking what's a clg conference of local government, which is, which is? Uh uh It's. It's a it's a set of processes and standards by which a city is supposed to operate to preserve its historic integrity. Um Part of that is having, um, a board to Watch out. Part of it is identifying those areas that are Historically significant in having those in enabling ordinance and we have the planning Department. It's um that all those things add up to it, Mike Right. And I. I think that II I think that addressing this in the charter could really help. Beef up. What is currently done, and from what I've seen done over the last 15 years. II I think that we need to be very 10 of it. I think your comment is spot on. Uh uh, I second that with a vengeance. No I mean, uh, I'm on the public Art committee and there are very You know? I know everybody looks at kind of a trivial thing. Public art, But there are spec, you know, specified, you know, skills and talents that, um, are supposed to be the quality of somebody that sits on that board. And sometimes You know, people get passed through and get put on that committee that are clueless. So that's for the art. Yeah, that's the art committee and we're one of the few. I think the only other one is sustainability. That's not quasi judicial. So we don't have you know an attorney or anything of that sort. So, you know. It's You know, and I You know, I look at you know what goes on at these meetings and You know, sometimes it's very frustrating because you know you're trying to get a project accomplished. And you've got people on the or a person on the committee that You know, just doesn't know what's happening. It's really counterproductive. The only language you may want to consider is also if you're going to make some changes along those lines, Uh, what happens if we don't get people in those categories, Which is always a problem? That's why I said, prioritize. That makes sense require because you train them right? Well some some require expertise. You need an architect . You need a You know a planner. You need to, uh, somebody along those lines and if you don't get an applicant for that, what are you supposed To do? Yeah, That was the problem. Well, that's why again going back to the language is you? You? You know you you Give you an example of when I first And you know I did about planning and zoning. My choice is not to be on planning and zoning. It was something else. But they said, Because of my skill set, I would better be served on planning and zoning and that's where I ended up which I was fine with. But you know, so when, when there are applicants that come in Instead of just giving it to. You know, Joe that lives down the street because you know, Joe that has no skill set in in in those certain areas when you have an applicant who may have a skill set. By prior by putting the language in prioritizing them it actually, In my opinion, it takes some of the, uh, the onus away from the commission or whoever to say I wanted you but this person we had to prioritize because they had the skill set. And so that way it it actually helps the commissioners in the decision making to fill those spots. Uh, so I think, um, that's been something. We got to craft something. Yeah well, uh, that's that's language. That's why I you know, prioritize those with the expertise in that. That particular area, So you know I no, I think that's a great um and one more comment. Good sort of going back to your comment about the big picture, particularly of the historic preservation board, which is a board. I've I've followed. But one thing I've noticed in looking at the big picture. I've read their mission. They do not fulfill. I mean it only one part one Point in their mission, which is compliance. They are not nominating other properties. They're not doing anything else in terms of historic preservation, How and getting well qualified people in there, I think would be part of fulfilling that mission are somehow sending them to some kind of training. Yes, I mean, So how do you How do you get these wards to actually fulfill their complete mission? Right now, I, I think training I, As I recall, there was a summary on each of the, um Of the boards later on, and I think we need to look at How we establish criteria there. Um et cetera. I know that I know that for, um The historic preservations. The state of Florida has CG training annually. Um You know, that should Possibly be a requirement when someone agrees to serve on that board that they agreed to go to That training or something ? I don't know. I don't and I don't know if you put it in here or how we write that requirement, but We need to have knowledgeable people on these boards to have them be effective , achieve what they're supposed to be achieving Totally agree. I also throw in some sort of cursory knowledge of Robert's rules. That's another thing that seems to be lacking on some of the boards that could possibly be dovetailed in with sunshine Lot training. Oh cause every everybody's needs to be trained in Sunshine law, they should have a rudimentary Version of that, Mr Tower. Penny, did you have something to add to that the I. I think that some things Well, they're good ideas. Um and they should be pursued. But I'm not sure the charter is the right venue. Maybe it's an ordinance or it's a or rules of procedure for that committee, or , um, that they have to agree to go to AC LG conference. If you're on the board, you agree, and Yeah, but we'll address the not to gum up the charter with. No We don't wanna gum up the charter with that, but we need to look at how those those committees are defined and make sure you have some at least one knowledgeable person on a committee. The makeup of the Clg. Because it's a state designated. Thing I think I don't see that as coming up the charter. I see that is making the this The commission follow. The rules. The rules? No I agree . The other stuff of you know, um Robert's rules of order and stuff that could be like part of the committee's Responsibility or their rules of procedure or something that they have to follow them and give them a copy. I mean, one of the other benefits, too. Is it allows for proper vetting because you could have somebody up there who's an applicant and in, you know If you're vetting them, You know what questions to ask them? Because you have that expertise or you have knowledgeable your knowledge in that area. Um And I. I think it just bodes well for effective boards. OK so right now, I have, um, three things that we are looking at. Changing in this section. The first one is, uh, for items H and I, whether we maintain the, uh every three year requirement for these plans are we change that. That's the first one. The second one is to add the wording to paragraph J to prioritize applicants with special talents, knowledge and skill sets. And then I think that we should add an additional requirement are Requires the board of Commissioners and the government and the city to maintain their GCG status. Where are you? Adding A, Um, a subparagraph are that would be to maintain CLG. Mm. Yeah. OK So, um, I think we have J and R. OK let's talk, though back to H and I, which What is the time frame that you think Should be Implemented. I'm good with 5555. Yeah, 55. Five, OK? And, uh, There may be another plan here that gets co ordinated that's been introduced , and I just wanna make sure that we're not missing one. So I have a note for the city manager . Are there any additional plants that are need to be Co ordinated in Section eight. OK? Um, since we have we're we're so , uh, definitive on this. Do we want to go ahead and adopt these changes? Um Or develop some more sophisticated language. Mhm Well , the attorney will do that for us to see the language before I adopt it. Yeah, I'm with John on this one. Well you absolutely You should review the language that and decide. Her to adoption . I mean, I think we're in agreement in just a matter of OK, so I'll just I'll just summarize. We're going to, uh, change, uh, three fiscal years to five fiscal years for items H and I should We put that as a we change the date that it's to begin. So for example, October 2023 we go to 2024 or 2025, or start T because it or start 2026 . I mean, when are when are we gonna require that to start? I think five years from I'm sorry I was I was thinking for I was thinking five years from the last one. From the last one. I did if for every five years, So if we've we've just done a I think did we just do a comprehensive? I was gonna say that that would be something I would on both the strategic plan and the comprehensive plan that you get with the, uh Either the city manager or the planning director to give you when they'll be finalized. So then you could take it from from there. I. I believe when this was put in place, Uh, At the time when they added it. They wanted to be sure that it got reviewed, uh because there was no mechanism for those ■there ws but nothing officially to review those at all. So the first time maybe Shorter than the five years. In other words, Let's say they just did it last year. OK and my thought is my thought is rather five years from then it'd be five years from the last one. All right. So the fir so the next time I'd be shorter but moving forward to be five years after That works. A rather want to take the date out and make it I. I would just I by thought. I mean, obviously it's up to this board. But But five years from the last Which has been recently right. Well, that that that was my thought. Um let's find out when the most recent one is and fix the dates there. Right But please do put in a date because I know those states have slid by as far as I know, in the past. I think we're I think we're within one year out of the last one. And that's why like an example for I, they had a strategic plan . It just hadn't been reviewed in over 25 years, So that's why they re You know, so that's why I'm saying That's the reason those were put into the charter. So to be sure, that those are you didn't every so many years. OK? When we Talk one more little bit longer on Jay. Yes, I'll talk quite a bit about Heavens. Board members appointed board of members be somewhat qualified on the board being Play, so We have a sentence here that says only city residents may serve on the city boards. We're looking for somebody who Is right over the line. Is there a way to bring that somebody in to fulfill what we need for? Qualified people. I mean, reach out to unincorporated Tarpon Springs. Well I don't know where, but I know that This is a problem sometimes getting qualified people and we talk about it, and I think Staff will tell you that there's not a lot of people that sign up to be on the committee. Right You know, it's usually by word of mouth or the board knows somebody board. Uh, commissioners know somebody and they put them on there? Yeah, And they come from the citizens Academy too, right, Irene? Well, we're getting more now that we have Citizens Academy. The other thing, uh, is not all it's in the makeup as well. So whatever those qualifications should be should also be included in you know, Each section is in a in the code. Um that's when they make up these boards and I know like public art has you know XY and Z should be in there. Um, but so Maybe the commission should look at all boards and look if they should have You know, because times change If they need they would have to be corrected in the make up. The other thing is the problem we're having there again is that we're not getting a lot of applications, No matter we put it out there. We send press releases. We try to do word of mouth. We've contacted associations. Uh, we're just not getting that pool either of applicants. Uh, so there are a lot of boards. That people have their term has Expire, but they're helping to continue to serve or we wouldn't be able to have a quorum to continue. Um in those important boards of the city needs, so we're constantly trying to find ways to put it out there. We're getting more. Um, like I said with the once Get to see the workings of the city through the Citizens Academy. We're having more people interested. Um but that that's the problem so we can't go forward with sometimes with the nomination or to fill those vacancies. Because we don't have anyone in that period. Not more even more less to try to fill the Um Those positions. I don't know where we go on that. I know you guys are working hard and fill those I. I Talk to you about it, but We as a group going to help them do that We still need people to come and sit on these committees. That's the problem, but somebody without skin in the game I I'd have a problem. The city can choose. To bring in professionals. We have a city attorney that sits on many of the boards to provide legal counsel and it might be if they, the city can't find volunteers that have the qualifications necessary to lead the board in the way it needs to go, the city can opt to bring in an advisor. Advisory. Person. You know? To sit with that board. Yeah it's a tough nut to crack I. I don't know. I don't know the answer to it, but I know it's part of the biggest problem. We have. They answer each board meeting Irene under comments that we're looking for this. We're looking for the arts committee. We're looking for the preservation board. We're looking for. I made an announcement that a lot of people watch that the city commission meetings. We have some we have. We don't announce at every meeting, but you know, because it Maybe it'd sink in. Yeah, and a lot of times When you do that part you do it way at the end, and sometimes it's really late. So maybe that Could be the beginning early. Yeah. Do you when you send your water bills out? Was specific information about something that's coming up or something like that. Could you Do that. You don't We got press release on the side. Every municipality has the same problem. I don't want you to think it's Especially the target work. Everybody wants to eat volunteerism and people don't well, certain boards are harder to fill than others. Just by the nature of you know who wants to participate. Really? A real answer to that is just let Michelle and Irene worry about it. Give them a Taser and sent them set them loose and town. OK thank you. So I'd like to make another, uh, ask another question. Here we have under Item Q. To improve and maintain the navigation on the Enlo River. Um. I would think. That would be Sufficient. But I did hear an awful lot. About when, with regards to getting the dredging kicked off on this last round. Um you know, it's hard to get going on it and I don't know if that was a city issue. I don't know if it was, uh um the Army corps issue, et cetera. But I weigh in on this one. OK I was actually on the Marine Commerce Commission, which still exists by the way. It kind of went into hiatus. I resigned to go on the public art committee, but, uh It was Um The role of the Marine Commerce Commission was to sort of set everything up. You know for the actual dredge. One thing that we couldn't do by law was to lobby for funds. So we had gotten to the point where we felt that we had done that. And then We needed money to do it. So that's when the committee kind of just dropped off because we had kind of fulfilled our purpose. Uh, I know there's been some kind of casual talk about waking it up. And getting it going again because we already have to start looking at the next dredge. And what part of the problem was, Um You know, the end coat flows through a number of different, uh, municipalities. You know, you've got, uh, you know, you've got the county you've got, you know you got Pinellas Pascoe. Um You know? Plus there are federal channels you bring in, You know the Army Corps and, um You know, it was a very complex problem. And the thing is that you know, the last dredge was done in 98. So the fact that the river was even that much more silted over made it even more difficult and again. It was the issue with this the spoil site identifying a spoil site. And as I said the commission made a recommendation to the board of Commissioners to purchase the site, which was You know? Not done not done. So um, that was a huge huge, So if you look at the section Q it talks about maintaining recreational boating access. It does not talk at all about right. Uh Maintaining commercial fishing access. Not only commercial fishing, but you have things like, uh, boat building. And boat building right, but but that's not even addressed in this section. I was gonna bring that up, actually, so You know when, um Uh, let me see now. Um The company on the other side of the river that builds these huge, you know, Uh, Duckworth. Thank you, Um They had. They had built this, uh, giant boat sort of a calypso. You know, um, commissioned by, um, I think the University of South Florida and they couldn't get it out until it was a full moon high tide. And even that was kind of chancey. So it's really affected even commercial endeavors in town. So the question is I would have does the charter need to be changed to address the commercial fishing and boat building needs? I think so. I think it's a zoning issue just a little bit of history. You know we have a lot of waterways, but there's only a very It's a very defined Navigable channel by the core. It was authorized in nine It took act of Congress in 1935 to Authorize the channel. The same channel exists today. I mean, the core tweaks a little bit to dredge it. But the authorization is the same. The core is my understanding would just as soon eliminate ports like tarp and you know they want Port Miami Port Tampa Port Jacksonville. Things like that. So We have to really fight to the reason it's a struggle. Joan is because we have to really fight to Keep that authorization alive. Um and But then the bayous and things like that, or that's the city's responsibility . It's not part of the although we can tag on when the As I understand it. We have tagged on in the past. When the corps has dredged we contact the, uh the contractor and tag on, so but, yeah. I mean, the waterways is a big It's a big deal. So we put that in and added this. To include those cuts. The cut is the area from the main channel going to where you put your boat up on the left or something. Right now. I have watched Cut in front of my house. In the last three years of that island. Is turning loose and coming in there, and when the feds did the dredging They They created those Four islands, but they were supposed to maintain that. Group of saying that keeps washing out. You can't stop it from washing out unless you put a no weights on they've fed. In the state does think that's the right place for one. Yes just so I'm understanding is the anklet River is actually federally navigable River and it's and it's governed by the federal government limited by certain state rights, But it's a it's under federal jurisdiction. The defined channel correct, correct the actual survey of a so it's 100 FT. It's not big, so it's 100 FT wide. It's also considered the only safe harbor. I think between, um Uh, Tampa Bay, and, uh, I forget what the northernmost city but it's in. It's crucial. Yeah so, but it it falls under a federal jurisdiction. So trying to relate this to the charter is Um , it it is much as it says that in there, the Charter, the or the Commission may be powerless. The only thing they could do is which they Had to do it is to force the Army Corps to fund or to pay for the dredging, and that that's a 5 to 7 year process. So as soon as you're done, you're done. You start you making the application right away. Um because it's gonna take you that long to get approved. And as as John said, we're we're not high on their their radar, but I think you just identified a requirement here for the city to stay top. But don't no matter what it says in here at the end of Day. That the river is under federal jurisdiction, So I don't know how much we would need to change here to give more authority to the to the commission. Um to and I'm trying to relate it to the charter. OK Um I don't know what more authority we can give the commission that goes be that that can give the commission more. To do what already? The charter provides for them. Well, I think we could emphasize the need for them to lobby for funds because that seemed to be the big issue with the You know the last. You know this current dredge well, but I don't know. Can you can you make that constitutionally required Not something you would put in the chart. OK the po, the po, the po. We put in the chatter chatter, but Encouraging the cuts. The feds aren't gonna do that. They're gonna dredge the channel. Mhm. But it says that in here With the purpose is that when they do the channel The city needs to get involved and get those contractors. Whoever did do the cuts. That's the time you have to do it at the cheapest part Can can they afford it? I'm I'm sure the city is gonna say we'll never have that much money. If you want to do away with on front property because it's getting close. I welcome you to come to my house and watch it on a low tide. It is not good. I understand that. But, you know, try to make requirements in a charter that they may not be able to do it to give you an example. When you have a contract with the federal government, If you you can't necessarily add on to a contract for local, uh, for local needs, Just like what they did Tarpon Avenue. They had to dig it up three times, one for the 0.1. When the after the DOT was done and released it, then the city came in and dug it back up again. And when the city was done then then, uh, Verizon came in and dug it up again. Why They didn't do it to everything all at once is because they When you control that. Project It's under your jurisdiction and you don't combine. Other correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't require other jurisdictions or do you want other jurisdictions involved in your contract? And am I correct in that It's difficult to have more than one agency. So the mandating mandating what the what the what the commission should do during when they when they when the federal government is doing one thing, I don't know if you can. Mandate it they could best try to comply with it, but you can't mandate it. Um It. Put the risk. Excuse me, OK, it put the responsibility on the city. OK, they're cuts. Are not maintained by anybody. They have to be maintained by the city because your face well, the state claims they own it now submerge war. Who's gonna do it. I mean, we put in here that They have to do the cuts. Well Feds aren't gonna do it in the states aren't gonna do it because it's ours. So the city has to do it. It has to be in here. If anything, we need to make it stronger because they're not even looking at it. Nobody from the city has been out there. To look at what's coming off of those small spoil bags. So let me ask you a question, Jim. OK, this is a requirement. In current charter. Read that. So you're saying that they don't comply with it anyways? So if you make it stronger How? How do you force compliance making it stronger May In force comply. You know how you make it? You get everybody who lives on the water to come to the Meetings when they do the budget. Well that's how you're gonna enforce compliance. But right now, if it's if it's already there, they're not. They're not gonna bring it up on their own. I. I get I. I guess what I'm saying is, you could add more language in you could add as much language in in the charter as you want. But if the commissioners are are not gonna Well. Comply then you're just adding, like I hear both of these, but my Here's my question. Um It's the only Place that talks about the cuts is about maintaining a navigational chart of that. It does, say recreational, bony access to in between Alot River and estuary in the city by you shall be provided by maintaining, uh, safe navigational. Depth. Well under two and I think that's what you're saying is that the, uh the cuts are filling in. They are filling drastically and So I don't see that This is really clear about maintaining the cuts . It's maintaining a navigational chart of the cuts and I agree with you. You could be 100% If you want to write it some way. It puts that absolute Responsibility on somebody. To do that. We can't just It's like a stop. Light goes off. Maybe we're in the wrong Maybe we're in the wrong vehicle. Maybe we should be saying to the commission. You need to adopt an ordinance that Strengthens the committee that John was on the Marine Advisory Committee and their responsibility shall be this this and this, and they shall maintain this committee and that committee shall report give quarterly reports to the commission and but do it through an ordinance and not gum up the charter. I don't have a problem doing anything that may help. Uh, it's a major problem. Tarpon is a waterfront community. It's not just in front of my house, you guys it's not just there. It's everywhere. I understand. Because if you're a Kramer buyer, you can depend on the type. You can't get your boat out. But look at look at all the buyers of the same spring by you would come Ba you They've all just I mean for years. And I love epiphany. But for Mike and Jimmy, I'll tell you this for years, the city Would Through yellow sand on the banks of the to make the green to the ryegrass grow. Where do you think all that sand went in the valley? Into spring. My when I was growing up, there were rocks this this high all along the seawall. There'd be sheephead and redfish and stuff. Now there's this much mud on top of those rocks that were this high. I mean, all the bayous are the same. Including by Jimmy's house. It's everywhere and I'm telling you, it's I don't think we have 10 years, OK? I mean, that's an outside to me. If something is not started or something is not done. They'll just be a channel. And Right now, uh, The state is trying to buy all those islands from the feds because they don't want anybody building on them. Which islands The island. Left while is to the left is where, uh, Most of them are owned by Pinellas County. Yeah, but I, I said the state Parnell's county is buying Yes. All the way up. Anybody who owns them and wants to get rid of them. The county buying them they don't want OK, that doesn't take care of the problem. The problem is nobody's gonna The islands are gonna really be a mess. It's well, I'm not I'll just tell you a little you like guys like stories. I'll tell you a story. He was a gay in Thorp and who lived just down the street from Jimmy had the same problem with getting his boat in and out. He would put a disc. Have Grove disc. Behind this boat. And pull it in and out from his house to the channel to make us why there was a Uh, Peter Knight would He would he made his own channel. It's in marked and it's still there. So out there. That's how it got made and it's a big problem, guys and I don't know what the answer is. I'm not sure any of us know what the answer I like. John's suggestion, though, is Make make an ordinance have an ordinance to that effect, but but, you know, Strengthening the charter that Area. When it's not even being addressed because it's already in there. They're just Not I. I don't think you're you're you're giving it any more teeth than that, that it's the heat that are already there. The ordinance might be better. I've been looking at what we're talking mini code. Some of the municipalities In the county and almost everything dealing with the waterways is in by ordinance. I didn't see anything else by charter. Oh, that's fine . I thought that's what it takes to get it done. I'm 100% sure. That's that's not a problem with me, I. I don't think it's gonna change in tarpon. And this It's a real real headache coming. Well, again, going back to what John said, is to, you know, revive the Marine Commerce Commission and get it up and rolling again and keep it going. And make them give Mandate. They give reports so that it stays in front of the commission. Because you may not be eligible. The city may not be eligible for federal funds, but they may be some state funds. With regard to that and having the proper resource or proper committee. That that, uh, does have But you ain't gonna get it out of the federal government. Yeah, one of one of the problems delaying the This dredge was that, uh, State diverted a lot of the funds that was that were allocated to the dredge to the, uh What was a hurricane? Yeah a hurricane relief up in the, uh, Panhandle panhandle. Yeah well, I'll tell you what, If anybody who rode up there you wouldn't. Uh I begrudge them to have the money. No, no, not at all. But I took. I took a big trailer for food and stuff up. There is the worst thing I've ever seen. It was terrible. Anyway Um OK, Carrie going back to one of your original comment on Q two. It doesn't have to say recreational boating could say better. It would say commercial and recreational, a hearing the discussion, the recreational boating access. I think we have to keep it there in very specific because that's about maintaining the cuts from the channels, But, um, I, I think that if we were gonna address the commercial In the boat, Billy, That should be its A separate paragraph. OK, but you could put this as Just voting or commercial and recreational boating and its estuaries and our city bayous because the commercial Aren't gonna go on the bias, but they're gonna they may go on the others. Anyway, comments I don't know how much commercial other than the federal, federal, uh, navigable handle river. There is any commercial, Uh, aspects of Waterways. Yeah, that That's what I'm taking, taking away that the federal government they the res responsibility of the city is to advocate For, um, access for commercial and built building. And maybe that's the paragraph that goes in that they navigate for funds from you know the federal sources to keep the channel open. OK? It does the same thing. One other thing. Licensing for dredging is extremely hard to get. But I know that. Two houses down from me. Hired a company they got. Oh, I wanna say overnight, but they got Their permission because The spoil rings were turning loose and it was filling it and you don't have to go through all the government R Amaro for that, so and I know we can't ride that read that. Write it. Whatever but kind of Orance Jimmy make a recommendation. We can recommend that they create an ordinance that Yeah, I'm fine. I'm all for it More power to it. I don't think anything is going to happen, but We had to try. You know most of those just more history for you. Does spoil islands that are in the R. Those islands in the river were spoil islands what they what they originally were were Marsh. Marsh areas in the river. And then, when the river was dredged in 35 they they put it on top of the marsh, because that was a good spot for it. So, um Mm. But anyway I'm an 1897 core of engineers survey of the river that shows all of that really an original. That's amazing. Very cool. Be furnish, say a copy of it. So in a word to D I think I gave one to the store. Of course. Well, he's got gold on his island. Right? Well, somebody else's gold, but it I treasure was on north Key. Because somebody found it. There's a there's a whole out there. That's As big as this room. Really? Some professional guys found it. Sounds like Oak Island. It was only these guys found it. I think What was it again on North Quay? Came in a little bit. A big giant hole in the island. Well. Did you see where Honeymoon Island is kind of split in half. Well, that wouldn't be the first time. That's how you get to be an island where three Rooker got to be in a green R. Record was Yeah, it was just a sandbar. Part of the Life house is turned into sandbar on that side, too. Yeah, it's tough. Reminiscing. Trying to get all this down. Um, almost done. There. OK so I think our changes are as follows. Um Paragraph J prioritize applicants with special talents, knowledge and skill sets. And that statement. Um Subparagraph H and I change three years to five years and we need a new start date for that. In those paragraphs. Um the next one is require city maintained CLG status and follow a guidelines and rules and then on subsection Q, Uh and, uh, Add a discussion. I we talked about an ordinance to get them to do the cuts. I mean, the cuts are in there. They're just not doing them. So I don't know how we do that. But um, I think we need to add something That's uh, regarding the advocacy for commercial ship being in and build the boat building access from the gulf to the in, uh, Of the river to the alter the 19 Bridge and That's just advocacy for funding. And then really? The question is, how do we get them to focus on the requirement for the cuts? And I think that might possibly be done with the committee or ordinance or We can address that and how we go forward. What creates a Marine Commerce Committee. An ordinance? I'm sorry. Asked John What read my mind. I would have to go back to my notebook and see you know how it was created. Um maybe we asked them to strength. The ordinance that created the Marine Commerce Committee and It was done, and it was done in the summer of 2016 boards are usually created by resolution resolution, So maybe we asked them to change it from a resolution to an ordinance and it has to have Uh, uh, reports and define what the purpose of the committee is and what they're responsibilities and obligations are right. And Jimmy, I think that's how you get to You know, getting it? Sorry, cranked up a little bit right? And most of the people you know my skin in the game. Most of the people on the committee were people like Julie Russel. You know Jane Jorgenson, who at the time had a That's what it takes. Right? Um Uh, All force org. Uh there was one guy whose name I don't remember who was one of the divers. And, um Panda. Karis was the chair. So. But definitely needs, you know, re examination and revival. And what was the name was the official name of that the Marine Commerce Commission. And I think , II. I think our first meeting was either in late spring early summer of 2016. Those eight years ago. OK? Thank you. Boy, that was a discussion. Thank you. I think the ideas were great. Um. Wish to have information that we need for a couple of these so Got it all written down. Um I think we can look at Section nine and get that done and maybe 10 and then call it a day. What do you think? OK? That's good. That's a great great suggestion. OK well, II. I think our meeting time goes to five. But let's let's let's stop early. How's that for? That's even better? Yeah, I think, considering we've got looming. I think we should point we've had great discussions in the bottom line is, uh, we are Well on our way to understanding the questions and the things we need to focus on, and that's the whole point. So uh, Section nine duties of the mayor. Looks good. Any changes. Mm. Are we happy? Or we just tired? I II. I mean, it's I. I don't think it needs to be expanded any further. No, I don't think so, either. I think it's pretty complete. Uh, should we adopt it, then? I mean, A move that we accept Section nine duties of the mayor as written. Thank you. Maybe we have a roll call. Oh, I'm sorry. Any discussion? Maybe we all coffee? Sure Uh, Doctor. Bu? Yes Miss Jennings? Yes, Mr Kiss, Mr. Chair Panny. Mr. Colas, Doctor Ro. Yes. OK section 10. He said. She said. We were going to start No, no, no. This one's just as quick. This one will be just as fast. Well, that's why I figured we can go. We can get through town. We'll We're good. Before we vote real quick on this one. I'm confused. The board has more than one vice mayor now. No We have one vice mayor at a time rotating through. Should we add that in case they wanna get really creative with it or No, No, I'm kidding. I wouldn't recommend that. No. I mean the board of Commissioners Duke it out. That's the truth. They have designated one of its mayor members as vice mayor, but then they have also designated when that is going to change, so it rotates through everybody. So um , it was rather awkward. Well, I said it was rather awkward. I thought Should there be any selection criteria? I think at some point you need to let them let them let them Duke it out, and that's that's what they did They they duked it out. And, you know, so everybody gets a piece of the pie, so I so I make a motion that we approve section 10, as is Any discussion. B car, please. Dr Gos? Yes Miss Jennings? Yes. Yes Mr Chair. Yes, Dr. Yes. Um See what else we got here. I think that's pretty much OK. So next meetings may 6th Let's say, review and discussion. Cherish Sector. OK, we did that, Um Next meeting is May 6th 2024, do we have any public comments? So Fair Protos. You're the You're you're you are the public today need a prose. Very productive meeting today. I have to agree with Joan Jennings on the Art committee. I think an ordinance as to who can put in an application, and they're background because that's what I've gone to the city Commission Many, many Tuesdays The ask about the historic reservation because we're losing a lot of our historic in this city. The last one put a tin shed to put their truck under next to a beautiful home on the bayou. That's it. One of the historic homes is wrong. Uh to be put on a board because you read historic novels that doesn't qualify. And if you go and read the, uh, applications to see the qualifications of some of them It does doesn't apply. I've asked the city to make sure that they belong to organizations and Tallahassee for historic preservation. Get the magazines read the letters. Read the newsletters that come out. They just look at well, it's because it's me. I'm sure they just look at me like I don't know what I'm talking about. But our city is going down and you can't put everything in the charter, but we need to get very active and make it strong again because we're getting deterioration in tarpon. It's here. They don't even force the ordinances in the sponge docks. Filthy It's a It looks like a carnival, so we need to do something very strong. Where As far as we can go in the charter, and then let's start going and asking for these ordinances because we're spending a lot of money, and it needs to get beautiful again and the historic preservation and the art committee shouldn't have to fight on these committees. But you got to have qualified people and for people to serve on the board. They must live in this city. Flush their toilets in the city, sleep in the city and pay their taxes here and their water bill. If you need to bring someone in as a specialty, bring him in for advice, But let's not start diluting our boards. Thank you for your comments. Chairman Root. I t , and Anita. That's wonderful for the sake. Uh, Well, thank you for thank you for being here . Um let's take a minute for staff comments. Um, uh, No, no comments. Chicken No comments. Good, good work. Hear that? My board. Good work. Um All right, so let's now go to, uh, board comments. Mr Chair, Panny. Was a good meeting. I thought so, too. I agree with you on that We might not agree on everything. But let's let's embrace what we agree on right. Uh, like I said, very good meeting. Good input. Um I like the different points of view, and I like to argue about them now. No I, I well, we will move forward with it. But right now we're stirring the pot and putting the spices in. So I think it's really good. Thank you. This is a strong board. I can tell you guys that it's uh I liked what we did today. Nobody is unhappy with anybody else. But everybody's doing this job and that's what we came for. I agree. Thank very civilized discourse sense of con. Collegiality or, you know, and, uh Yeah, I think we were very productive today. It's only our really first substantive meeting. No. I think it's very positive, very happy with how it's gone. Well I think the board of commissioners gave us AAA great board to work for, um to work with, and, uh I look forward to working with you in the weeks to come and hopefully I'll get my dates right next time. So thank you for pointing that out. Um I am a fallible human being, but I don't like to admit it all the time. Um, thank you very much. Our next this this concludes the meeting. We are adjourned at 4:42 P.m.