##VIDEO ID:AQh-AlIL5RU## like to call this meeting into order it's 6m November 4th 2024 and it's our Workshop meeting Maran can we get roll call Young here nice mayor C here council member French here council member P herec okay and our first agenda item tonight is a building department update so jmy or Wayne well I can te it up uh if you guys remember in our strategic plan we uh there was a couple items on there one of them was to uh and I'm paraphrasing I don't have in front of me but to look at the proactive approach for Code Compliance and then also look at construction site maintenance those were two um we we just kind of we've also talked about Turtle liting enforcement so we've asked Wayne to do is put together a presentation with with several items that are on your agenda um in your staff memo and so Wayne is going to go through those so I will turn it over to Wayne mayor council thank you for having me here um basically I'm just going to go through a PowerPoint real quickly of these items and if you have any questions feel free to just interrupt me at any time chime right in so Code Compliance right now uh is changed from just being complaint driven to incorporating staff driven as as well so in that we're looking at areas in which we've got uh worked on permits we're looking at uh overgrowth on properties stuff that causes problems in the community in the in the long run uh and and you know uh part of that is is uh construction hours and and working on the weekends without permits uh and so overall the um I'm pleased the response I'm pleased with the the the way that we've been able to ask for voluntary compliance uh and instead of just bringing everybody to magistrate so we're working with the residents and saying here here's a situation how much time you need to get these things addressed and then if we don't get that we're giving them a courtesy notice so you verbal warning courtesy notice and then uh you'll get a notice of violation which still gives you an opportunity before the magistrate hearing to get into compliance so we've got enough uh opportunities for these residents and contractors to come into compliance next please uh construction sites another change that we've tried to do is is work with the construction sites construction sites is uh challenging uh uh Beast to deal with um we're looking for the development however at the same time we've got to maintain the the uh the fact that other residents live on the same street and we're sharing the same road so it's not just about uh getting the jobs uh done um it's also getting the jobs done in a manner that's consistent with the village and and policies so we implemented construction screening um as a way in which to keep the appearance a little better and at the same token it keeps the activity behind and not everything in the street so what we've done is that we've tried to um areas in which the Swale and the driveway was going to be destroyed anyway we bring it to stabilize the rock thereby they could park get some of the off street parking onto the RightWay portion and then still allow for drainage and then when the vehicles are gone and so on you can still have some ability to pass so that is still a work in progress we've got some kind of uh Pro uh Improvement and and cooperation uh with the contractors in that respect but for the most part it's much better than what we had before which brings us to uh talking a little bit about the um construction hours um and then we on in addition to um the construction sites the we're we're managing actively about 13 single family home construction sites that doesn't include additions or alterations just new construction and then we've got another five additional new constructions already sitting in the pipeline so that why it was important to to take a look at the construction um on the construction hours um this is kind of like uh a snapshot of nearby jurisdictions and and what's happening in terms of their week hours versus what weekend hours look like um so for the most part we kind of stand out with starting the earliest on a Saturday morning 7 o'clock so uh stop is looking for some kind of direction if uh Council would like to make any changes or um leave it just the way it is um next one is uh topic that came up at uh the council meeting discuss regarding vibrations um this is not just on construction sites there are sheet pilings um pilings that's being driven So currently we've got in the building code um chapter 33 it talks about site maintenance dust so on and so forth um we basically have the ability to shut down a construction site pretty much um based on them not following the the rules of law not following the permit uh the question is how do we once we've shut it down how do we allow them to open back up um so right now we don't have anything that says that they have to do certain anything specifically as far as it relates to vibration I did take a look at what Juno Beach has and therefore that's just a suggestion in which they they they've allowed for measuring the vibrations as part of the code and then that way in the constructions uh uh permits issued it's the the contracts will be under the understanding and already been advised that they need to do something whereby if um vibration is expected um during exper extended period of time consideration is made for that process just be advised just because something is vibrating doesn't make it detrimental has to be over a certain level um and over an extended period of time as well uh next slide on the sea turtle um Turtle season's over um it was fun while it lasted uh the uh the residents were pretty much good plan um we got some really good cooperation between the HOA and um the proper Property Owners um on the ocean the uh situations were nobody had to go to CT enforcement so we had got the voluntary 100% voluntary compliance in that manner um HOAs were kind enough they put notices in the in the lobby on the by the elevators so it was it was really a a good testimony to the cooperation that we that we um um experienced next uh vacation reyolds vacation reyolds so staff's been actively addressing the vacation rental activities without permits in the in the village um that's been done through the code enforcement uh arm and Then followed through the building arm so we are going through which um we have in in in in total right now seven such properties that we are working with to bring them into compliance um unfortunately some people don't listen and don't want to cooperate so therefore we've got two cases coming to special Magistrate on Wednesday uh that fall into those um um issues U and that I believe is basically it if anybody you guys any questions thank you open up for discussion waai on the construction hours the weekends we we're currently at 7: a.m. we start our there at 7even we're at 7 a.m. yeah um I I don't think we need to be the leader in this um unless you want to be I just I just think of you know it's 7 a.m. is awful early especially a weekend when people get up it's when they at least want to enjoy coffee before they start make a little noise yeah so I I'm in favor of bumping it back to at 8 o' I don't think we need to be the leader in this do we have do we have a lot of people on the weekends that are starting at 7 in that hour we we we've had a few people that's that's been doing that yeah okay and um it's a Cod so when the when the calls come in there's nothing much more we can do about it yeah um I have asked uh various contractors you know as a courtesy could you just please you if you're on site but don't start anything up till 8:00 but again that's all voluntary so there nothing I can really do in that respect yeah I I don't I don't know if cutting it back an hour is going to delay the construction of somebody's home by and large so I would be in favor of on this issue of moving to a later start time I would agree so like town of Jupiter the 8 to four yeah you want the end time to be I don't I guess I've seen people it's dark and so I guess half the year it's okay but I I guess I'm okay with 6 p.m. because most people are still kind of coming work I don't listen do we get calls hey it's too late at 6 o'clock are we getting a lot of those oh no not not just the morning calls we're getting calls on we're getting calls about um construction hours um starting too early I see I'm comfortable 8 to 5 Saturday Saturday Saturday 8 to five so um would that also include things like you know tree trimming like pressure washing any loud kind of work or is it strictly just constru because I know like you know people start cutting down trees at 7 a.m. and it can be very very loud we could we we'll just incorporate um we use the construction hours but that's pretty much all work activity is really is really what transpires so they could be taking a tree on at 7 o'clock in the morning yes so have to be it would have to be into the if it's written into the ordinance that work hours are those work hours we'll we'll work with Keith and we'll come up do that works for you is that true great ask question are you concerned about the activity or are you concerned about the noise or are you concerned about both you got somebody out there at Sunrise washing their car I don't know is that a problem versus one of compies or third party maintenance agreements I don't care if somebody's going to wash their car at seven that's fine but they may be quiet they may be staging but they're still I know my dining Do's probably the Narrow Street in chesta and if we hit competing Lawn Service guys you can't even get down my street there's one you know two different addresses so I think just the staging of the vehicles I would you know to get there at seven and just be waiting on go for eight doesn't really get rid of the fact that there's still a truck and there's noise and there's people moving but I don't think you can limit it to the third party vendor because I you know there are Weekend Warriors out there I mean I have a little chainsaw and I've been to walk off branches as soon as I can't get started on so that's why I ask is it the activity or is it the noise that was my next question is this this goes for anybody in the village residents or contractors cutting your yard at 7:45 is that that no one no no right on Saturday it should be I mean if we're not allowing yeah I problem with it I just want to make sure that I was understanding that prop and that my my head was like the noise yeah noise is doesn't matter who but it's just it's the noise like not on a Saturday only starting a little bit later if we can if it be written about noise I'm totally fine with that and it's more well we do have a noise ordinance um let's go back to that one that's more pile driving 600 p.m. what was that one 7 a.m. so we've got noise issues there so we can do something in that area put that to 8:00 or something if you want to do that so we have prohibited noises that's there showed from the different that was strictly construction or was that their noise the the the hours were construction hours okay those were construction hours and then we've got noise in another section of the code um that talks about pile driving and then in the in chapter 33 it goes into noticing your your neighbors if you're doing going to be doing Demolition and all these various things so there's different sections in the code for certain things but in general the construction activity starts at 7 o'clock in the morning and then from that code enforcement is getting noise compliance regarding the construction activity so that's what's happening ahead is there any varying complaint as far as okay guys are on scene painting the work is not very loud but maybe they are allowed pulling up or is it more saws running it's it's been a nois issue in terms of equipment being being done and let's just use demolition now demolitions we've been getting every demolition has a complaint call on it so the demolition will start at 7 o'clock in the morning okay the demolition also drives into vibration and that's another another thing that goes on too so those are those are where calls are coming in there do any municipalities have something where the the crews can arrive but work cannot commence until a certain time so they can actually you know Park set up get out their equipment but you can't start actually working until that because you know you could take a half hour of the time you set up Park and get everything ready to go and I don't know I just they can do that right now um and that's why the way I've I've said it to them it says listen stage up until 8:00 and then don't start anything till as a courtesy okay but they could they could stage from 6:00 and start making noise at 7 the way it's written right now yeah and that could be an issue so something um I'm definitely in favor of the construction hours eight to four you said four or five five yeah so I'm definitely in favor of that and like I would be in favor of considering just noise in general to to pick up things like tree like loud stuff like that chsw still might not starting early 7:45 and then another thought I had is I and I don't know if this would be too difficult from like a code enforcement standpoint or can be confusing is you know for the if commercial districts where there's not residential like could we leave that 7 AM and just make it residential only or is that too convoluted you my my question oh sorry I was going to add on to that the the um from a cold enforcement standpoint we don't we don't have a problem with the zoom because we'll know what the laws are for specific s um whether the contractors get the message of a different story and some houses and some of the tow houses they're pretty close to back up to commercials yeah you run a saw yeah it's going to go block true yeah because if you gave a Rus that'd be tough 500t from resal and just for Mike I agree with the 8 to five on the weekends you said leaving the weekday the same Saturday only we already don't allow Sunday right this is just Saturday okay or you want to go back to five I just heard I thought you said you said 8 to five yeah and is that is that acceptable for the Cru because we do want to protect the residents we also want to be fair to the crews that are working um the I said they work in various jurisdiction so uh they're already jupit and the colon is at 5 Jupiter's at 4:00 so okay um Juna Beach is 5:30 be North Palm at 8:00 at night late building I remember those calls and me was there was there anything specific that one specific thing that started this or is it just a myriad of it's it's it's it's an average of the calls that's coming in so it's it's several several different things um once you got development taking place uh it it disrupts the norm and therefore calls are coming in like how can they be doing this and so on but the 7:00 in the morning morning uh was the first kind of repeated complaint like almost every week we got a complaint for Saturday morning um problem understand I think this was one of our strategic plan our strategic plan too I think we discussed it then um okay so eight to 8 to 5 on Saturday for construction and noise yep okay one question at the end that just for this topic remance Park I know when the tornado was on its way uh Milton you know they took off the screens which is great the site was extremely cleaned up you looked in the corner kind of where they staged everything and when I'm looking at it as a light hurricane I'm like yeah no problem and then when I look at it is okay some of those gusts for 60 and then a tornado came through that would have been okay so maybe someone just think about the future that we had obviously it could be an outlier but uh that little stash of equipment and supplies in the corner would have been pretty bad for the that house right there and those neighbors Yeah we actually talked about this too during um you know storm the storm coming because you know you could have uh shingles stacked on roofs right and sometimes you know full dumpsters and sometimes it's diff call like you can't get your dumpster haul because they're so overwhelmed they're just not going to get you you can't get someone to bring out you know a cray or they need to get the tiles off or get a portlet gone so I mean we've talked about that like sometimes you require them like to we down the dumpster or like strap portlet to in like a column inside the house or something so you know Wayne did say he would work with the job sites if they can't get materials off like making sure they're tied down better and not like just in a bundle somewhere I know it can be challenging to get that stuff off um when everyone's calling at the same time to get I need these tiles stacked off my roof I need my dumpster pulled so how do we work with them and so we would lean on you know the building department to make sure you're assessing those sites and that situation if they can't get you know things off the site how are we going to secure them it can be difficult um uh going back to the construction site you brought up parking uh you know residents complained to me about the parking I know there's times where there's no way our fire engines could get down the street how are you working with them and it's tough because there only like you are creating an area now where there it does lot for some parking but it is tough you're going to have the workers come and there's really nowhere them Park in a lot of our neighborhoods so what are you doing to prevent it from where where I have seen like our fire engines couldn't even get down the road which is a safety issue so our work with PD on this um we have a situation where in we've got this is be one construction site here home or two on the opposite side so now you've got two active construction site practically and that's what has caused the blockage of it will go up we'll clear it give it one hour it goes right back again okay so PD would go out code enforcement goes out and we just say look here guys if you can't listen then we have to shut shut all the s St everybody's going to have to go home that's about the only thing that we can do at that point but the the the thrust has been look cooperate and we've got to a point where and we've asked and and they they they understand that at the end of the day we can shut you all down everybody goes home and you don't go back up have your permit suspended and you don't come back to the construction site it'll cost cost them thousands a day if that if I did something like that so it's it's more a question of of voluntary compliance and we keep stressing that that's what we keep doing said look if I have to come back three more two more times I'm done that's really just a question I I don't have a huge opinion on this one or another so during demo I've noticed there are some sites to just put up the silt fence is that is that still permissible so what what El do the fence during the demo because of the fact that they've got to get this stuff in and out it's just too much once the s's been stabilized then the construction fence comes up comes in afterwards so the silt fence is the initial stage get the erosion control measures in place once that's done guys get this up and then once you have your permit um I want you to rip the stabilize the area is really what it is I don't want broken sidewalks um I I don't want people tripping on anything and then this way we're able at least to get some of the parking off here and then and then over over the site onto the site and the temporary fence is required for the entire perimeter we well I what I've done is the entire front and then they go back on the sides um to keep people out and then I've stopped it if they've got situation where you've got high hedging the 25 ft in and it bust up to a neighbor okay then I'll stop at that okay got you it's really just a question of making sure that we're not a nuisance and um we're getting it fil and on the inter Coastal side um we we'll we'll we'll do a similar thing or just do the erosion control okay but definitely the first 25 ft on either side and then the entire front gotcha okay this is a unrelated question but um pass it every day so I'm just curious the the house that they're trying to turn into a two story on Drive yeah the the the pal County property oh is that what that is yeah Palm Beach County it's it's been ice swore and it's getting worse I figured you guys that's I I reached out to their code enforcement and asked them if they could do something with that um I got promises yes they will that's as far as we've gotten um I I I'll I'll make another phone call I'm just curious just CU yeah it's it's a nice one yeah one of can you go to the the tile driver um help me explain to me why if all of our other hours are from 7 AM to 6: PM why why is this one should be nothing after 6 p.m. correct corre this is this is prohibited hours those are the prohibited hours so they can't work past 6:00 p.m. and can't start before 7:00 a.m. doing any pile driving it's like Written In Reverse it's it's the same thing yeah just written in the reverse LA and when you have pile drivers in hand that that's that covers noise when you have driver noise and vibration that's noise and vibration I want to make sure it wasn't just limited to something like that it can it can be a chainsaw and and the reason why I I I'm I'm also talking about P driving is is that we've got not just um seaw walls but we've got a situation that came up uh on on on the gas station renovation here and the neighbor was concerned that the pile drivers that were taking place was doing damage to their structure um so much close to it so that's that's what that's one more making sure we were paying attention so you guys pass so is that what you're following or do you need any direction from us on well what well what I would the direction I'm looking for is the hours to to what what you want in those hours to address which is noise construction hours uh timing um and takeing into consideration uh the activities that's taking place in terms of if you wanted to mandate or if you wanted something like this written into the code we don't have any anything we don't have anything we have to do that so so the vibration example the neighbors complaining that you doing damage to my structure all I can say that's a civil matter and and that's that's that's that's the extent of it this kind of language would allow the contractor to at least get monitoring in place and then give us some kind of an answer what is the extended the vibration should we add Wayne the week the new weekend hours on there so should be from 600 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. weekday and weekends from 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 a.m. well this is not in our code right now we we can clean this up this part is that is this part is in the code this is the proposed the instrument oh I see okay yeah this is the instrument portion propos but this is in the Cod right now so somebody says that as well I'm doing it at 7: a.m. I'm P driving on Saturdays and they're fine and they'll be okay not on a Saturday they they can yeah they can start working at 7: a.m. not not on Saturdays we just said they can't work till 8:00 once you once you once you do that I'll fix okay say We'll add the weekend out oh yes okay oh yeah oh yes make you're looking for the the green the sentence in green I'm looking s for the green this a suggestion I want some yeah correct so I I would think that's reasonable for stuff like pile driving uh if you're driving uh sheets like you know stuff of that nature um I don't like the way that's written would that include demolition I I will say like I know demolition can cause vibration I don't know that it's typical to have to monitor vibration for demolition so this is this just picks up the vibration and gives gives me teeth to discuss vibration that's all it does it doesn't mandate that if you're doing the demo then you have to put monitoring in place I could just make that for pile driving this doesn't have to be with pile driving I'm saying you can have vibrations separate separate Al together the choice is yours how you want to do this in terms of if you just want to discuss vibrations from pile I from as it relates to pile driving versus discussing vibrations during demolition so we've got calls on both what is your experi erience on I mean have you seen an other I mean I guess maybe Juno does but I haven't seen it typical to have to monitor vibration for for demolition because usually yes you feel the vibration but the level's not there I know there's a threshold like a f dot threshold corre exactly it's usually not over that and like you said it has to be extended amount of time um I don't want to be too restrictive I think it should be tied into what's written above by I don't know about like building demolition but I would lean on other council members input and your expertise on that we building demolition we be going with something like a the numatic camera right or a Jack camera you're breaking up the concrete you're not going to be doing any damage to the person's property or can there be that case where it's a heavier demolition or if it's a building well it's it's what the the compliance and my experience has been on the demolition you're just really breaking the concrete that you can't so you can get it out of there okay so you're removing the Footers and anything else that's there um the the complaints are coming in from the neighbors who are hearing the noise and they're also feeling the vibration sure but the and the Damage really is as as as a mayor was saying you have to be extended period of time it's not just a 50 minute thing um yes it's an inconvenience yes it may seem like it's really bad however the structural damage that's taking place really isn't um seem to put on a demolition crew to have to have instruments and it costs money to do that too another cost to the owner yeah seems like a little much for property owner is going to be putting that additional bill as well what about like compacting when you're compacting soil like sometimes use a a VI you know vibrating driving like if you're driving pilings in like we're we've got structures that the saw isn't there we have to drive pilings to hold swimming pool up or or or structures and so on not just a sheet padding for a seaw wall um that's during construction um it's it's really is going into to to a soft area until it hits bedrock and then it will be then you'll get that vibration um so they're even though it's making that banging noise uh really isn't doing a huge bunch of damage it's really when piling is hitting uh the resistance and you're getting that resistance and then it'll transmit to whatever the other structure is sitting on then you'll get that vibration so it it's it's more of a horizontal effect versus a vertical effect but um it was just a suggestion um in terms of asking monitoring which I can't actually for under the presid code I can tell him shut down go home um and come up with a plan how to how to do this but again whenever you do that it becomes very costly and expensive to the the applicant and suppor on pile driving or something to give you the ability of needed I don't think that support on residential I agree I agree with that I think it gives you some reason gives you a talking point to go out there Len we're feeling it yeah yeah stop or get the monitors yeah exactly I'm any other no I do just want to say um great job on the sea turtle monitoring you know I know we had a lot of discussion on that we decided to keep the monitoring of that within our minutes ipity and great job thank you thank you Wayne I got a good te and just a word of of thank you um I have referred people to you um on code issues where they have clearly been wrong uh and you guys have done a great job of making them feel okay about it so thank you things that could get very very loud appreciate that but you guys have done a great job and they even said that to me that you know Wayne listened and all they wanted to be listen to so thank you great your own team's done a great job no they I'm truly blessed to have a great team so I'll TOS the word along to them thank you the sidewalk on Riverside to be North Riverside be specific any public comments I just wanted to remind everybody that this overriding issue is universal every City's dealing with it every year and um the thing I'd like you to remember is that noise at at job sites in residential areas not limited to electric and and gas power equipment the typical scenario is the guys would show up at you know say quarter to 7even or whatever start unloading their trucks they start joking with each other they start laughing talking loud throwing equipment such as uh wood and aluminum and things down on the ground and cang and then they turn on the radio at full blast I would probably do the same thing myself but it's it's not limited to just that type of equipment and the other thing you know many codes have decibel requirements and then the code enforcement also goes out with the measurement thing verify that and the last thing I wanted to say is if you have an A uncooperative contractor Wayne and council members um try what we call in Palm Beach the three strike rule if Wayne goes out there and strike number three they they are still not doing what he says their job site is shut down until the Village Council or Town Council in Pal's case says you may come back subject to the following requir and that is very painful and it gets their attention immediately that includes parking those of you defended more than you more than you'd like to know all right we'll move on to the next agenda item thank you Wayne thank you J item two update on the financial position of our uh refuges and recycle fund reserves I'll te this up for Mr Snider the we agreed to a new rate with waste management and we also um discussed the or approved the 25 admin fee which worked out to 1.56% the overarching problem with this fund is that um we we collect this fund through our non-ad vorm and so those residents that pay the their taxes ahead of time and get that discount um it's roughly worked out to about a 4% discount so we're losing 4% from what they paid a waste management to what we're we're we receive and then we pay it to waste management we're losing a a 4% now it's 2.43% or whatever the number works out to so we are still running in the red on this fund um and so Mr Snider's come up with kind of projections and what that looks like and there won't be any action tonight but as we move forward into some of the budget conversations this will this will be kind of the foundation for those as we move forward into next year and look at these funds so thought it was important that everybody realized the 25% is kind of a a stop Gap to get us through this year but we have an overarching problem in the past and I would say prior to 2019 prior to I getting me getting here we renewed the agreement waste management at that point we decided not to charge an additional fee prior to that we were we were collecting more than what we needed to so we were we were charging a fee higher than the rate with Waste Management so we had built up a fund um and so we've been using those funds those reserves over time and then 2019 we uh set that new agreement in place we stopped collecting additional and so now we've been drawing down and so that's why we're in the situation we are so I don't know if you have anything left on your presentation any questions that whole fund is drawn down currently or we're getting close we're getting close the 25 cent helped us well sorry Jeff um we're using for the past five years we've been using reserves and that's that's appropriate actually is to you build them up then you use them then you build them back up um and uh we get no indirect costs now indirect costs are the fees associated with operating that fund that they don't pay for for accounting for payables for the manager oversight for you guys for the clerk h are all the things that that go along with it those costs are shared amongst um the different funds that we have that's legitimate that's a good thing to use uh and understand that these These funds most every fund except for the general fund you you have to use the money for its intended purposes and and one of those is indirect cost but so you're using them for solid waste that's what you use them for or refuges and recycling or you use them for the water fun or or storm water you don't share around special Revenue funds are exactly the same the general fund can support any fund and that's just how the game is played um that we calculated that the $9,000 is the indirect cost and we don't think we're going to keep the uh Fund in the black during fy2 5 26 years so we're looking to do something um we we obviously got into the the waste management automated trash pickup we did bring out uh 1.56% increase um kind of offset some of the costs and um then as we've been talking about the village utilizes the non-ad Borum fees and therefore there's reductions in in cost there's also a piece that that PBC takes some money out of there is different every year but they take some of it for their cost their indirect fees um and then we have a history when I talked to some of the historians of charging more than contractually required increases until the fund Reserve increases over the amount it needs and then we use it so we're there basically coming for next year no good Finance uh report goes a spreadsheet or two or three so I'm proud of my spreadsheets you can see that um that 16 17 and 18 we were building up uh reserves we got them up as high as 126,000 that's that's plenty before you start giving the money back um probably a little farther than I would have taken it and now we're starting to spin it down 2425 we're looking at at uh 15,000 so if we go into the projections uh you'll see that we're going to go into the red 2526 it's just going to use everything we have available for 2526 and then it starts getting really ugly as we go out further so we have some uh the contract has a 5% floor and a 6% ceiling for management so they'll get 5% every year or they can't get 6% of CPI is above and it's so that just another thing to keep in mind so we have a couple scenarios for you uh scenario one we could increase 4% the first year and then 1% the following year and then we can continue to go with the 5% for a while and we start building up a little bit of a reserve and it'll start falling off when we get out of B that's one way to do it it's not a lot of uh change in monthly payment so it's not horrible bad but anything that raises fees is horrible bad I mean it just is nobody likes that uh the other scenario we could go we need we need approximately 5% I'm Force to start falling off but that that's just smaller increment smaller bites at the Apple um and that's kind of where we are I took that one same thing it's about 5% to get us going uh we're not in Dire Straits we're going to be fine this year uh next year we'll be talking about it in June when we're get because we got to do our our notification to the to the uh residents about the increase so we'll be doing that we'll talk a lot more about them in the first budget worksh go back to the first option two two and one so it reduces it but goes for a little longer you're still going to go either the five or six% so you're you're above that's what's above what and it's got the ceiling of 6% so CPI takes off it goes crazy they'll be getting 6% and then the other one is three and two so they just raised our contract rate yes ma'am and many of us had to pay another $100 for another trash can this is yes ma'am next year that's a sad way to look at it but yes two questions yes sir the first I guess I'm a little confused while we're hearing about this now or while we're talking about it now it's going to be next year's budget no action necessary is there anything else that I'm missing or just more being aware that more being aware um because the 4% came up yeah and then uh the other the scenarios I I like personally you know drawing it out over those years I think there's a little bit of a perception because then the taxpayers are seeing taxes increase constantly up 5% no matter what we do minimum yeah perception and what actually happened are probably two different things um but i' do like that the smaller inflence over time for future discussion okay I'll uh I I I agree with council member for it's disappointing to hear about this now versus when we're going through the budget um because this item did get on the workshop running list because I had brought up at a council meeting that we are charging this admin fee maybe we should have some kind of policy on how that should be spent and so obviously the directions change a little bit I don't think we necessarily need a policy on that fee anytime soon I I don't know what the rest of council thinks on that um and then instead of having it public billing then requires us to ramp our building system um it's like cutting the tail off a dog uh if you cut it one time you get hollered at one time if you cut it off in 12 increments you're going to get you're going to get bit all 12 times um so this is a known quantity the difference between this and our water this is a known amount so it's just a fixed amount we charge it and they pay it in that taxes and we're done and then that puts the collection process on to the they go after the money for us if somebody doesn't pay and by the way we got the most largest uh payment from delinquent taxes I've ever seen in my time so we had $155,000 in delinquent taxes this past year amazing don't know what happened don't know where sign huh good sign things it's not really it's kind of a scary one but do do we know how much we're potentially losing to the early payment what they charge so there's this big process so it's not a simple here's the number but but it is a number and it can be up to four I think the uh average that we've been over the last few years I've looked at is about 3% we've been different using think give you report property grader office estimates and has kind of an idea because I know I get the discount the 4% discount but I sign up months in advance I pay quarterly I don't pay at all at once for the discount pay over that time so they know I don't remember what the month is but they know way out how many people sign up for that program well that program but it's the it's the people that decide uh it's going to be more lucrative for me to pay it early and not invest it for the extra few months or it's going to be so you got all it's the all pay at once okay it's the 4% but it's 4% if you didn't pay it for three months and you could make 10% you were wait thank you I wish I could make 10% over those Fe but any Council comment question any public comment yes ma U I've done scores and scores of non assessments both to Questa and Palm Beach and I fully understand the problem that Jeff and Jeremy have but I don't understand this methodology so here's how it works and Jeff can correct me because I've been out of the game for six years the U uh if you pay your tax bill in November 100% of it you get the four% three in December two in January one in February zero in March and you're just up to creep it up if you like that so if if you need $100 from me to pay my fair share of the waste management contract and I pay my bill in November you're only going to get 96 bucks from okay so keeping in round numbers if you want to do a 2% 1% let's just say a one and a half% administrative fee on top of the $100 then you would be char charging me $11.50 but if I pay in November you're only going to get 97.5% of that money okay so there's the Dilemma that they're dealing with all the time here's how we did it in my reg elction in taquesta and in Palm Beach for the 22 years I was there we if I if they need $100 from a taxpayer they charge them $15 property appraiser tax collector traditionally gets 1% 4% is the worst case scenario for when a person pays early so my recommendation is you go with 5% and you'll be very you will probably build up reserves and then at that point in time when you think they're sufficient that particular next year you can either have no add-on or you reduce the add-on whatever you want but you oh and to answer Molly's original question I would venture to say into Quest that between 60 and 75% of all taxpayers pay 100% of their bill in November in Palm Beach it's over 80% okay so if we didn't do that 100 add that 5% on we would be losing money and Palm Beach never loses money it's just not the game they play so think about the 5% cuz one of that percents going to tax collector pump and property appraiser and you're going to get a 4% hit on probably 60 to 75% of your people so you're not going to be having a lot of money building up rapidly but it will one point get in time where at a budget meeting Jeff Andor you guys or Jeremy they're going to say Hey you know we can give them a little break this year but the norm is 5% above what you really need from the taxpayer any coun com questions all right thank you je thank you Jeff moving along agenda item three which is a draft for resolution number 24-24 for rules of deorum all right thank you mayor um so as you all know we have historically had rules of public participation for our public meetings uh and rules of decorum means which meetings can people make public comment and which agenda items are exempt from requiring you to make public comment uh and that statute tells us what kind of regulations we can have on our books to control that um that statute also has a um half of a sentence in there somewhere that also says nothing in the statute prevents local it can be content based even though we're talking about person Amendment stuff and um those those are the portions of the rules that they kind of talk about um under our current resolution personal attacks and not using fighting words and not heckling from the audience things like that um so our current resolution complies with the Sunshine Law statute and we also had rules of decorum that were in line with the current state of the law in terms of case law on rules of decorum in September and October the United States 11th Circuit Court of Appeals uh issued two brand new opinions that specifically talk about the issues of rules of decorum the um Court of United States court of appeals is the appell level right below the United States Supreme Court 11th circuit is the circuit that we are in so we actually have two cases out of the appellant circuit that that we are in that deal with this issue and um let's see one of them um this uh the name of the uh case is MCD versus Garcia and the other and that dealt with a actually a local government had to do with forar chin School Board um for purposes of this resolution recognize was confusing complicated and inconsistent handling of this issue by the federal courts in our circuit so they um especially the mcdna case really spends a lot of time explaining um what the public forums are that are now recognized and how regulations that regulate uh how rules of the Quorum that regulate speech are are treated in those different public fors and just briefly I don't want to turn this into a law school class on on um First Amendment speech but it help whatever they want whenever they want however they want about whatever they want there's very very little the government can do to regulate that that's a traditional public forum on the opposite end of the spectrum is really not a public forum at all places that it might be it's government owned property but it's restricted public you like a like the case law that that talks about it uses um curtilage of of a County Jail that that that the jail has a very specific purpose it's not for public comment um another case actually talks about mailboxes as being a non-public for in terms of what you can do with Ma so traditional public for not quite a free-for-all but very very open very difficult for government to regulate no public forum completely the opposite in the middle is where the um confusion and and treatment by the courts fell and what you had the same thing with a different name sometimes they said the limited public forum is a subset of a designated public forum it it it And the reason it's important is because the test that the court used to evaluate the government regulation of speech is very different so especially with the McD case it did a really basically as a um turns it into a traditional public form so the best example that's used in the case law is a u like a a university speaking area um government takes a piece of government property in our case we're going to say our council chambers opens it up for a specific limited purpose and is and and adopts rules of public participation that limit the public participation to versus our current document the thing about a limited public forum uh is that uh rules of public participation and theorum May restrict speech including subject matter uh the test is that the rules have to be reasonable in light of the purpose served by the meeting and have to be Viewpoint neutral always have to be Viewpoint Neal neutral on whatever the subject matter is anytime you try to limit well we only want to hear you know the good stuff about this no you will lose that all day long every day of the week it has to be a view point neutral but um speeech um much more prefers the the speech as opposed to the regulation and that that's um what's called strict scrutiny uh the rules have to be um the minimum required to accomplish the the compelling government interest it's a much higher test than the limited public form um which again the rules just have to be reasonable and Viewpoint neutral um our current rate resolution on this topic um you know we we do not um put any limits on what that non-agenda item public comment could be it could be right now the way it's written and we've always interpreted it could be on anything under the sun in my view and based on reading this case law we would fall into the designated a public forum category because you're not really limiting anything so I have revised this resolution and this really is a is a significant change it's in conformance with the case law and let me say that I've written this draft in what I believe is the most restrictive way that you could regulate public comment you you I don't think you can make it more restrictive but you are always free to loosen it up if if you feel like that might be that might be ratcheting it down too far and but I believe what I've written conforms not only with the continuing State of the State law but also this new case law that deals with this so one of the one of the important changes uh is that number two it's on page 29 of 31 I think it's there for and I also have it under uh middle of page I have it is determined by The Village Council to be reasonable to limit the subject matter for non-agenda item public comments at these is that that gets us into the limited public forum category which put the in the event that that that we actually have to defend these in court it puts us in the category where all we have to show is the rules are reasonable and and and non view point discriminatory as opposed to having to meet the strict streety standard so it's very important that we um add that language in um now um after that's the way I wrote this um and you know to as a defensible reason for doing this I I added language that you know the council and all of the appointed boards are collegial bodies that you're bound by the Florida Sunshine Law therefore you're prohibited from discussing any matters that will come before you for Action except at a properly noticed public meeting um therefore Council meetings uh are the only opportunity to discuss relevant matters and take action as appropriate and there for non-agenda items need to be limited to things that are relevant and pertinent in other words this is your this is your meeting it's your only chance to conduct your business this that that's what these meetings are for for you to conduct your business so that language says you know you're welcome to come to our meetings and make public comment about things that are relevant to what the Village Council does not about things that are not relevant to what the Village Council does I then put in two paragraphs I said by way of example and not limitation topics relevant and pertinent include and this language com Straight Out of The Village Charter forba them out of the charter um enacting local legislation adopting budgets setting tax rates determining policies for so many times but for instance the the language I just read you know I think needs to capture issues related to compliance with code of ethics it doesn't say that but that um you know you guys act as a collegial body you all have individual lives and you all do things in your individual life what those things are is not necessarily the business of the Village Council and this kind of gets back to the thing I just said obviously if you're out there taking unlawful gifts or or doing you know VI to mind after this um was published for the workshop um agenda uh and then I just have topics irrelevant to Village operation or to CL of residential or business communities um there's a sort of a release valve that says the council May by majority vote uh overrule the presiding officer's determination regarding relevance and pertinence of any particular public comment topic so the you know our mayor runs meeting mayor says that's not relevant but the rest of you thought well I think we need to hear that then you can overrule that wow that that can that can happen um so in terms of general rules of decorum well in terms of public comment about non-agenda items that that's a big change to this proposed resolution uh however every every sentence in my opinion can find support in the two court opinions that we cited um in terms of General public participation that doesn't change it still complies with the statutory requirements you know the three minute rule uh using the comment card listing the types of agenda items that public comment does not um applied to that that's all straight out of the statute um so so that's the first big change making it a limited public forum by saying that public comment in general is Li limited to matters that are relevant and pertinent to the Village Council or or whatever board is holding their meeting the second important change are under the rules of the Quorum moms for Liberty case the overriding problem was that the chair of the school board did number one their rules did not have any objective definition as they was a big one and I think we have that in our current resol solution but in the momster Liberty the momster Liberty case there was what does that mean and and the court spend some time looking at the testimony at the trial level and the chair of looking at the testimony at the trial level and and the chair of the school work Village Council recognizes the right and the duty of its residents to offer criticism and opposition against matters to which they are opposed critical public that impact local government operations or residential business communities is also welcome so I'm trying to recognize the Viewpoint neutral requirement in that paragraphed we Define what fighting words are unrecognized remarks from the audience are prohibited we Define what an unrecognized remark is outbursts and yelling are prohibited we Define what that means meeting disruptions are prohibited we Define a meeting disruption um what that meant uh we have attempted to make a an objective definition uh personally insulting intentionally cruel meant to convey a personal insult against another person's appearance or demeanor or against another person's conduct not related to the business of the public meeting and not related to a village council member or other board member's conduct at the current or a previous public meeting so again it gets back to you know what you guys do on the de I think is fair but what you do off the dayas it's not related to you being a council member there's nothing for this body to do about that you're not each other's babysitters all have lives as I said before so that is the second big change to the proposed um the rules of decorum we we took out the personal attack language because it was such a it was very problematic in the moms for Liberty case but we left in the things that that seem to be the most um problematic and we we put what I believe are objective definitions for those things in the rules the enforcement provision remains unchanged it still requires uh basically a warning and then second the second violation at the same meeting allows uh the chair to remove the person from the meeting um what's going to be key whatever this final version is that that you want the key and the difficult doesn't have to be difficult but is the consistent enforcement consistent use and the consistent enforcement of especially the rules of deorum so um I don't know that we're going to get this into final form tonight because I really want the council to be comfortable especially with these definitions um because if you don't feel like they're objective enough and that you're able to you look at understand what they mean and be able to interject if somebody violates them enforce that we need to we need to discuss that further and those where you're comfortable with them so so really those are the two big changes uh limited public forum by limiting overall the the content of public comment on non-agenda items and trying to objectify and Define the prohibited Behavior and the rules of a lot of talking um to keep it asct as I could but um there are some substantial these cases uh are you good tools and I've I think captured their legal requirements in this proposed resolution but this is now for you to discuss and give me feedback and what we want in terms of changes again I don't think you can ratchet it down any further than this I think you can loosen it if you feel that that's appropriate thank you ke Council open up for discussion two questions um I understand why that's there I think that could cause um I understand why that's there I think that could cause confusion and that might spark I felt that that might be a pain point for public comment and I don't think we've really had a ton of issues there for the non ated because what I witnessed was more the personal attack not the nonre related and maybe that's one of the same and so that I'd like to hear council's comments on the non-agenda item and my only advice on that specific topic is the designated public forum where the the and again as I said at the end and what's important is the consistency in the enforcement if the consistency in the enforcement is more relaxed that's fine F but again that if we can have something in there that keeps us in that limited public forum arena with the more relaxed judicial review so thank you currently um at the beginning of the agenda we have the comments from residents or however rephrase it which that can be off agenda actually I think it's supposed to be off agend right yes that would that stay in place comment made during that portion of the meeting relevant and and I think that the way this is set Marina Marina versus the designated public I'm fine I I like it I'm okay with up I just wanted to understand how that one communication for resents that's still open for them they can talk about an event they have coming up I'm fine with well so that's what I that's what I need to understand I I'm kind of hearing that you would prefer to leave that subject matter wide open personally I'm okay with it but all I know yeah I understand the the need to keep it but when like to be very specific when they start talking about individuals but when like to be very specific when they start talking about individuals and that that's that's totally uncalled for that goes against the rules and that's why I put the language about um local government operations that's pretty broad yeah matters that impact the residential Community or the business Community I was trying to I mean that's I think that's really broad that that could be just about doesn't even that's really that that's really I was trying to write that as broad as I could think of in order to not get bed up with exactly the concerns uh that you guys were bringing up so it is microphones I'm exaggerating but so it is microphones I'm exaggerating but so it is relevant especially in our County my question is before we get to public comment um our rules of decorum say or or public comment say that somebody mistake their name and address they don't do that they shouldn't be able to speak and how what can we enforce when it comes to name and address when somebody says I live near the community center I live in the club says I live near the community center I live in the club I live in the club that's not that's not their address and it's important because they say address address and they do why do they say the address I think it's I think it's important to say the address probably to just moralize it on the record I understand both sides but I can understand some people's fear of saying their specific address in a public setting I'm not aware of there's certainly nothing in the statute and I'm not aware of case or attorney general Rees that I think I think we should take it out cuz if we're not going to enforce that rule I mean I think telling you who your name just you know know who you're talking to that's just strange to say resident or not I'm a resident or non resident or is that weird but I I would be cautious about so we say like to know your name and address and they give an address like your example for example I live on that would be I I'll would be very reluctant to uh say oh you're in violation and if you violate any other rule kick you out of this it's really just a matter of but but when we don't start with that you know our says name and address the thing because there's no incentive for us to they get up there and they take their shot over the bow and I can say it because it's happened to me four times out of out of five months and it's  pardon my language but that's what it is and people don't I know and I'm sorry but it's exactly what it is um but I've always kind of Wonder I've always wondered why do we have them say their address because no one ever really follows up if they follow up the clerk has their contact info their name the police can always look up where they live if we needed something but like it's not like we're chasing people down their house I'm kind of going back to the point why do we have their address because then we can just have them say their name right but to my to my point is we require name and address we're allowing them to to not follow the rules of deorum right and we don't have a way to enforce that like if they don't no we don't but then we shouldn't ask I'm sorry I'm trying to I'm trying to make my point if I finish my point the only thing I can see and again I'm aware of No Authority that requires it then we shouldn't I so one thing that I could see just by way of consistency sometimes you allow a speaker to represent a group or an organization so you would want to know who that person is where they're from and what where the group that where is the group who are you speaking for so you you and I think it's appropriate if you're going to allow someone and we do to represent a group of people you want to know who they are where they're from and where the group is that they represent so by way of consistency off the top of my head I I that that's the only thing that I let me just give you an example because it might help um it's helped us in the past where cuz I know if they don't fill the car like usually the pon officer I know I do says like state your name and address and there's been a time or two where I know maybe they did just State the street or the whole address and they asked a question and they they didn't get the answer they left like we have been able to get in contact and like there was a water utility issue before and the water utility was able to find that Resident and then follow up and get their problem resolved so I have seen it be beneficial in the past where we've been able to follow with in the past and get get the help they need or the question answered um that is only benefit I could see to like continuing to do that and then you know to your comment Rick about people forget who said it about people being concerned about verbally putting their name or their address I mean if you have a comment card and they fill it out and has that information then we have it so I I don't know I mean again name certainly you want to know who's talking to you that gets that solves the mayor's issue if their address is on the comment card if they didn't fill out a comment card then the only other way to do it is to either have them fill one out or verbalize it but other than knowing who you're talking to and where where they live compared to what the issue is they're raising I don't don't have a a legal answer for you on that one okay so name an address if we don't get the address that's okay I'm saying but the giving them a second bite of the Apple they come in with the intention of of of maligning somebody personally and this V this happened and so they get that and then they're like okay I got my shot over the bow I don't really care anymore so you can cut up my mic and do whatever so how do we enforce this will we give them a second chance and it's happened they've done it twice in the same government so there's no incentive for somebody to follow the rules at least in my experience in 18 months in this Council because you can get your parting shot out before the warning right I I that is the best practice the rules have to be react the enforcement has to be reactionary I don't know any other way to to somebody has to do something in violation of the rules to be warned even even if even if you didn't give them the warning shot there's still going to have to do the violation take can we take away their time there's got to be some there's got to be some incentive for them not to do what is what what what they what what can happen to anybody can it roll over to subsequent meetings like if someone is a there there's one person who is constantly making this an issue yes that meeting they can be you're asked to leave that that gets really difficult yeah but I know you're you come back do we have to give them a warning you know if if the we have them sign we put all these rules of decorum on the back of the card they sign the card so that's the warning they violate they're done their public comment is done why do we give them a second buy to the Apple not seen a case that up I've seen cases discuss the warning procedure and validate that I've not seen the cases any case discuss not having it and validating it so that I would say that's untested and I and I understand what you're saying but I think that that that's going to put you public discourse is getting to the extent where this is not this is for we always talk about putting other future putting future councils at a disadvantage or something I think we need to tighten I would like to see us tighten this issue up because it's going to continue to get worse not just in the village qu but all over we see it all over the United States right now that's why there's been two courses that the 11th circuit I I uh I I consistently say this job is not what it was 15 years ago on any means especially in terms of that type of thing it's much harder I just wish we could there was greater enforcement or other opportunities to stop it because there's no incentive for somebody they know they're going to get up there and they're going to be saying you can't say that they already they've done the damage that they've tried to do and it's used in different ways while that's going on somebody's also sitting in the in the in the the audience recording the meeting on a phone when we offer it already and that's permissible as long as it's not disruptive you can sit there with your iPhone in your chair the whole thing things are things are done for sound bites and I think that's unfortunate yes well I think I think holistically it's good to get our this resolution up to par with recent court opinion so I think that's a good first step and I I mean I do think I mean since I've been on Council generally we have not had issues with rules of decorum it's generally very professional we always want the public to feel welcome we always want the public to be able to speak I do think any elected official we all put ourselves in a position doing this role to have people not like us I know that's just not everyone's going to like us at the end of the day and it's it stinks it's not it doesn't feel good but that's going going to happen and I think if we can align this with and and just always try to keep it current with you know whatever the latest and greatest Court opinion is that you know we have the tool here to keep us in line and it's up to the president officer to follow it and be consistent with it which can be a tough job as well um but I do think this is the best we can can do at this time and manage it accordingly I have two questions one under public comment where it doesn't apply should we add presentations to be because I know historically we never take comment on presentations I don't know if it is important enough to have an outline to have us covered or like for your um they're usually the very first thing no no they're usually with like Proclamation they're usually that very first part like we've had I think isn't um Peter DT coming to present soon he won't be here but so that's an example presentation yeah F do in the district so one of the exceptions are um ministerial acts I I would consider proving minut reading proclamations having some kind of you us one bridge status present in my view those are the kind of things that are considered ministerial there's they're housekeeping they're they're more less than housekeeping but if you if the council would like we can expand what ministerial act means and and put put those types of things list them as examples under under that under that section I mean I just don't want to see in situation where there's a presentation and they didn't take public comment and I had an opinion on I don't know I just like I said I want to make sure we're covered where we can be and then my and throughout the document it does say relevant and pertinent it's kind of vague can you I mean it's throughout the document so like as a current presiding officer and for future like what does that mean and how does one Analyze That and interpret it yeah and that's why I tried to have those two paragraphs where I have by way of example that limitation things that are relevant pertinent and things that are not relevant that's at the bottom of page four and the top of page five that's where I took straight out of the charter the the charter language about Village council's duties uh and put that in things that are relevant pertinent second objective though like who determines it's Rel relative or pertinent to an agenda item or I mean that just seems very subjective how do you well I mean for me as long as it's Village related but there's unless you sat there and specifically listed every little tiny thing there's no way to really my in you're not so when you're enforcing it like how how do you stay consistent when it's b or kind of wide open oh another good point that you talk about it I mean so we've had it before in non-agenda items we've had a public comment that was talking about a state bill that was going on and obviously we support and non support certain bills but it wasn't Village but it was just the resident want to express more concerned about my view that would fall under local government operations or impact your residential or your business Community depending on what the legislation would be sounds like everything's related except for if it's a personal specifically to no personal attacks without saying no personal attacks because again that that that was a big big part of the mom's for Liberty case and so I was trying to get there without pushing that case that opinion to hard by doing it this way by saying you we only want to hear about things that are relevant to the village and the community and the businesses and the residences of how we operate the government so that was the attempt and that's why I say I'm not sure that you it may that you want me to go back and make some adjustments to this I think I I think the language is fine the I Wasing how like I agree but like how do like how do you define relative and make it consistent like enforce it consistently yeah and and that's it's important that's I mean so the sitting mayor will I think have a view for what that means but you know we don't always have the same mayor year after year after year after year you may not be the mayor to someone you guys make it aor have a narrower view or a broader view so that so always that's always going to be the case it's just and that's kind of the other one of the other reasons that I put that kind of release valve language in that if the presiding officer makes a determination well you know I think you're going off off the off the reservation majority of the council would say well we don't so we want to hear it or it's there's always going to be a certain level of subjectivity just by way of the fact that you have a human being running the meeting and having to make those immediate calls when they happen you you don't get the the luxury of um listening to a tape over and over looking at a sentence and a court opinion and trying to line it up and make a call you got to make the call you know right then and there and and there and I will tell you that there are Court opinions I think it's either of these two but there are other where the courts recognize that they recognize that residing officer has a hard job here it doesn't the court won't break the First Amendment regulation or requirements but the court recognizes that this is an on the spot thing and in a close call I've seen them air on on the side of of the local government rather than impose sanctions um because of of of that imp of life so I yeah there's always going to be um subjective application I've made this as objective as as I could have and the definitions that we've written in here if if they weren't out of court opinion they came out of Mariam Webster they recognized definitions so I like what you have there think restricting it to making us the limited to limited definition which I I understand the need for that I and even if the application and the as I said the the enforcement and application is is on the inclusory side that's fine as long as it just needs to be consistent now that that was the problem with the momster Liberty case the chairman of that school board it was all over the board didn't even they didn't have definitions she didn't know what she was doing because there was no guidance this attempts to give you guidance but it does require you to be consistent we've had that issue the as well we've corrected it council members have changed it okay any other Council comment discussion no good as long as I get to hear public comment I'm good I like hearing from good bad ugly whatever public comment I'm glad that y'all are doing this because as one of you said you know it's good to be proactive because it's like Anarchy all over the place in America right now H meetings but when I read this at home I had a thought uh wouldn't would it give the rules of decorum more teeth so to speak if you adopted it as an ordinance because if you think about it John Doe has a very difficult time in finding a resolution that adopt that that's is just sitting in the document Center Online they don't know where to go get that um the other thing too about pertinent and relevant I me you know whoever's running the meeting you can stop interrupt the speaker and say to them explain to me why this is pertinent relevant to what the hell we're talking about okay or whatever that item is and if the and and Molly or any future mayor if you're if you're confused you can say Mr attorney can you help me and give me guidance on this just you know raise the time out flag and do what you think is right yeah and those words came out of the mom's for Liberty case I did not make those up I used those specifically because that was was and then the court accepted those um but but I no I agree and you know one of the things I like this might sound silly one of the things I like about our meetings is that I sit beside the mayor there are so many Dees where the mayor has to have the center seat and then it goes out and out manager over here and the attorney's over here none of us can talk to each other makes it very difficult to you know I can't kick that mayor in The Shins or or have a little you know haven't been kicked yet no but you know you understand I mean it's a silly thing but it's really a good way to have it set up because then you and I can talk I can talk to Jeremy I can talk to you and quietly we don't have Sunshine Law problems and I can and I can help in in that in that on that occasion what I mean Mr raer mentioned ordinance versus resolution what would be your so if we did it by ordinance uh that would I it would U be then in chapter two of of your code book it would would be not just a council adopted policy and resolution but it would be code and would then be part of the code mode do we make the rules of theum available at meetings we're supposed to cards okay and we usually post it on the screen at the beginning when I get on top of because yeah I mean people have to be aware you can't you can't win them sorry my thinking was if somebody filed suit over some of this and I can hear them saying in cour well how am I supposed to get my hands on this document I mean resol Solutions are hard to find relative to ordinances that's just that's my only point in that regard what do you see in other municipalities are they is it resolution or is an ordinance typically resolution but you know again then you make you definitely need to make them available at the meeting whether it's on the screen or on the common card or both or reading them I mean most places don't do that but they're also on the agenda there's a link on the agenda I think I'd be in favor leaving as resolution it is link on the [Music] agenda fine print wow take a picture on zoom and then is everyone good with Keith making some of the updates you mentioned during his presentation we have comp my opinion with the we twet we talk about this get you current with keep your current with state law and get you current with newal case law on this okay thank you for bringing that to us thank you absolutely you can make a few tweaks or whatever and then we'll bring it back for the next meeting though right for the December meeting I can do that yeah because we're right at the deadline for the agenda for so I would give you a little bit to thank you well assuming the council's okay with it so I can be okay with it does yeah no I really I like I said you know I uploaded that version with some track changes still in it I I would like a little bit more I don't want to rush this I want to make sure that it's every time I look at it I see something else I want to make better so we can bring this back after December fine than okay we get a motion to second know little reference like and you were cringing like might be right I don't know probably right into the lawsuit drops and then oh are you like big AI yeah I actually did it my first AI to AI class um or group about a week ago just had to use it properly and stop using it as a toy use it like you want to see my daughter's house oh I was telling I Jackie about that this morning she she was like oh Molly's must be so excited it was so funny because she's like we were thinking of what to Bill she's like I know we don't we don't like them but I think she like I want