##VIDEO ID:QiZw8Br8eEc## all right we have a quorum should we go ahead and get started then yes all right um I'm going to open the meeting of the towns and affordable housing Trust on uh Monday November 18th at 10:2 PM uh could I have a roll call please Dave warland present Beverly Napier present and Veronica Cal present uh Cindy bound is absent but she may be joining us I I expected her to be here so I don't know all right um then the meeting is being recorded however Dave it's not live on Channel 9 is it correct it is not okay so it'll be posted on the town YouTube channel um after the fact all right moving on to um Chairman's additions or Del oh is anyone else recording the meeting I should ask that all right hearing none I assume that the only recording then is the tcam recording for this meeting um Chairman's additions and deletions to the agenda unforeseen prior to 48 hours of this meeting I have um no changes at this point uh there was an updated agenda posted um but uh other than that uh no additions at this time um anybody else have anything to add all right then we can move on to meeting business um 2.1 approve the meeting minutes for September 4th and October 7th Aaron did send those out um uh late last week I guess it was so um is there a motion to accept the minutes of September 7th I make a motion to accept the minutes of September 4th or October 7th which are we doing oh I'm sorry I have it wrong on my on my notes um September 4th I'm sorry thank you Beverly and is there I second I second the motion to accept the minutes for September 4th all right is there any discussion on [Music] those I had no I had nothing to add to those um anybody else I don't know it sounds like uh I'm not sure who's talking it might be tcam is someone um yeah we just had something happen here at Town Hall that felt like an earthquake and I think everyone's trying to figure out what happened oh my goodness the whole building shook a couple of times we heard it here or whatever it was it was big and we're looking in the building to see what's happening if we can figure it out you felt it at your house we heard you heard it yeah there was some big Rumble here yeah oh my goodness Sonic Boom maybe I didn't hear it um so I'll wait just a minute for Dave to come back I imagine he's investigating it was very strange it almost it like seemed as if some almost somebody had like Fallen up above us or something it was very strange okay well we're gonna continue on um so uh I don't have anything to add to the September 4th minutes anybody else all right so um all those in favor of accepting the September 4th minute roll call vote so I'm going to call on you um Beverly how do you vote I yes um I vote Yes accept um and I Veronica vote to accept the minutes as well so Veronica was there a second for the motion yes David seconded it okay thank you you're welcome all right uh the next set of minutes is the October 7th um minutes where is my um hold on one minute here um Cindy uh Dave Cindy says she can't get into the meeting I wonder if that uh Cindy boundy is trying to zoom into the meeting not you daveid Dave um buoli for tkm they might be able to let her in in just a second once they um um with tcam uh we're not sure is she using the right numbers to uh access the meeting um I don't know this is a text um I'm going to just say it's working check the num um perhaps you could cut and paste the uh the meeting link and send it to her can can you do that Dave I can go ahead and do that okay thank you why don't you do that because I'm going out to see if we can figure out what the Earth Quake was the Thum okay all right moving on to the um minutes of October 7th is there a motion to accept the minutes of October 7th I move to accept the the the minutes of October 7th as to the best of my knowledge I recall them um I have a couple of edits if that's okay yeah me get a second to the motion or or should we do the edits first Erin should probably do the edits first and then we can make a motion to accept it as corrected okay all right the only Corrections that I have are to change uh sorry let me pull it up um it says a roll call vote was done on the second to last uh paragraph and the last paragraph and I would change both of those to a vote was called so it was not a roll call vote and that's something that we're going to rectify okay so um let's uh make remake the motion with the edits as stated so Dave you want to redo the motion to accept the minutes I I move to accept the minutes as edited for October 7 is there a second second um any for further discussion all right uh roll call vote let's start with Beverly just say your name and how you vote Beverly napor I accept um David I accept and Veronica Kell I accept also all right so uh minutes for the fourth and the 7th are done um at this point I'd like to have a motion um to hang on one minute uh to um accept the response to the September 18th 2024 open meeting law complaint um via roll call vote this is to ratify the vote that was taken on October 7th so is there a motion to accept the response to the September 18th 2024 or to ratify the um acceptance of the response to the September 18th 2024 open meeting La complaints I make a motion to uh ratify and accept the uh is it the September 18th was it um I think it it was the September 18th 2024 open meeting law complaint vote it's to ratify the vote made on October 7th though correct um correct to ratify the vote made on October 7th is there a different way we should word that on October right well since Cindy isn't here I will second ratifying the vote that was taken on October 7th I answering the complaint of September 18 is that is that correct because obviously I am not fully versed in the open meeting law rules which seems to me to be an incredible waste of time because the mission of this board is not to focus and spend all of this time on these hypocritical comments and complaints but if we're going to play by the rules then we're going to need your direction from the chair to make sure that we don't waste any further time doing this and use our time constructively I agree with you totally it looks like we have Cindy with us now um Cindy can you hear us I can hear you I'm trying to unmute myself oh we can hear you we can hear you okay okay um so uh we have just made a motion and it was seconded to ratify the vote taken at the October 7th meeting to um accept the response to the September 18th 2024 open meeting law complaint so um it was made by Beverly and seconded by David um David just commented on his thoughts on this uh do you have any comment prior to us taking roll call vote to ratify that motion uh no I have no comment all right then roll call vote um beginning with Beverly please this is to ratify David David I fully accept Cindy yes I I accept it and um could you state your name and yes please just to vot votes yes all right and Veronica Kell abstains because I was not present at the meeting on the on October 7 all right um the second vote that needs to be ratified is the um uh motion to adjourn that was made um on October 7th to adjourn that meeting meeting so is there a motion to ratify the motion to adjourn made on October 7th I move to accept the motion to ratify the adjournment on October 7 second is there a second second um all those in favor by roll call vote Beverly beginning with you Beverly naier I accept David warin I accept Cindy boundy I accept and Veronica Kell I abstain again because I wasn't present at that meeting all right um moving on uh to 2.3 discussion on housing types desirable for the blood Road property and um the Mass Housing Partnership update so Aaron could you just speak to that for a few minutes for us there can um so I spoke briefly with um MHP Laura shelts and she provided me with some um various types of housing that have been done by MHP and we get to take a look at them so these are some examples of different types of housing that we can um potentially look at see what sort of feels right for towns and um and go from there because the um well we provided them previously with um the information that we were interested in the cottage style houses and but were open to other options wasn't quite enough for the um for the planners that are working on this to go off of they need a little bit more they need a couple of different options so that they can provide us with some options so they gave me a PowerPoint that we can run through quickly and I oh can you enable screen sharing for me please is anybody there supporting us I don't know if T's there right now they might be trying to investigate what the big boom was um oh Aaron you're the co do it if you need perfect thank you all right um so this is the PowerPoint that they gave to me um can you all see it yes I can yeah I can too okay oh hold up it's going through the right it's going through the thingy yeah yeah all right let have scroll down okay um so this is one that was done in Dennis so this is on there we go um half of the 12 plus acres um so this resulted in 27 units so uh this is the plan of what it is and you all have this in your um your packet as well but just to sort of show what it looks like and you have some photos of what the residences actually look like I like I like that one do you want us to talk Aon or do you want to go through the whole thing first it is up to you um it is I think fine if you want to say if you like something or not um however if you'd like to sort of hold comments to the end that's fine too it's up to you all what do you guys think I think it's EAS to comment once we have all the information to comment on okay so let's let's keep going then go ahead Aaron go through them all and then we'll come back all right so this next one is in fouth so this is 39 affordable um units and this was done on almost 10 acres of space Oh sorry 12 acres not 10 acres was preserved I thought it was 20 go back to that eron I thought it was the total is 20 the okay 11 and a half was used for the housing where 10 was preserved okay um so once again here we have the layout here with all the parking sort of in between and the units um to the sides and this is more or less what it looks like today um so obviously we can't see the entire um property here but this provides you with sort of an idea of what it looks like the next one is in Brewster um this one has 45 units so once again these are these are larger developments than we'd probably be looking at but we're looking more at the Styles so these are more they look a little bit more like single family residences from the rendering here oh that's we only have the rendering I guess um I thought we had real photos for all them I apologize um this is for barnable this is 28 units so this is more of like a culdesac kind of look but looks a little bit more like single family homes like this one on the bottom here another one in barnable which was 12 and this sort of has a single family look it's just uh sort of broken up by colors so you can tell that it's different units there so it's sort of like a um just sort of a different architectural style but still very sort of in keeping with the town um and here's mashby and this is our last one this one looks very much like a rambling old farmhouse to me um it's a very sort of New England style but uh has um 39 units so there's a couple of different sort of options here I told them what you all had um expressed interest in they knew you like the cottage style um but I had talked about how you would express interest in sort of the single family look or U more or less and so that's what they pulled together for us was put together these ones that sort of look a little bit more sort of single family style um have sort of the architectural elements that we see in New England as opposed to something that looks more modern or um sort of a more of like a block style or something like that um so I will stop sharing for now and see if you all have any comments I can always share again and um if there's any specifics you'd like to to go back and look at all right so Beverly you want to start what did you like well well I I think I like the first one with you know I like the New England kind of single family look to the properties obviously that's in keeping with what we have already here in towns and so you want to maintain that look I think David what about you um well the this the the look that be's talking about I think is similar to what we looked at in Westford yeah and I I fly support that kind of a look um I do have a question but I I'll wait until Cindy you have comment about I know I I like this single family look too what I don't know is if it's cheaper to and I'm not saying I want to build a big building but but it could be a money constraint too to put more units in a bigger building than I don't know I don't know how that works out like that would probably be a question for the developer but I like the idea of having it look like a single family house and maybe like detached but I'm not sure I like does that make sense does that make sense much yes yeah I think that's what we all you know what we saw in Westford was what we really liked I like also the in the layout on this one this malit um I think the other Direction go the other direction um I like the layout of this as far as the road and the common area behind the houses I I like that too um and and it does look like they're kind of bunched together in twos or threes but they still feel single family because the the porches are offset kind of um how many units are in this one how many units are in this one that we're looking at 27 27 yeah yeah I like that a lot yeah so it looks like it's probably two to three families per uh per building back it up I want to see the acreage that this is I I think it said half of half of the 12 so six were preserved so this is on six acres 27 units um w i I kind of like this but anyway um go down it can we scroll through to maybe it's the third one kind of looked similar to this one [Music] um this one not the rendering go to the next one it's it's this one that one is a um dener you get more units in but it's similar what I liked about this was again when I like about the porches are kind of offset so you're not you know it's not like you're Pittsburg 2 family where here's the porch here's the porch and you're looking at each other you know so I kind of like that it feels more separated even though they're connected are these two these are two story dwellings here that we're looking at the I think yeah they look like two to maybe even three I think three is hot why do we allow so so they they're like tow houses rather than yes rather than rather than a unit per level right so it's you would buy an up and down unit rather than saying my units on the second floor everyone's units are on the first and second [Music] floor that's to real condusive for seniors right not not great for seniors go two floors 12 one bedroom rentals for seniors 28 rental family homes in Quad buildings are there two different kinds of buildings there so it might be that these larger ones sort of in the center of the picture are the quads maybe whereas like there's some smaller versions up here that's the only thing I can think of so maybe it's seniors on the side and um a quad in the middle perhaps maybe I don't know yeah that's something we could ask MHP we can also say we like this style but we need to sort of fit it to towns in that's exactly what they're expecting they don't expect us to um tell them exactly what we're what we're looking for they're asking us what sort of styles we like so that they can present some um some different ideas so that we can uh continue moving forward with this um yeah so I that's I so we have to decide like if we want town houses if we want single level homes right if we want a single home in one building or if we want like two or three units per building right is that what we're supposed to be thinking about so yeah so kind of um what we're looking at is we they already know that you guys like the cottage style right so those are the small the small um unit sort of set apart from each other but with the common space um but we're looking to get a couple different styles so for instance this is kind of a um New England's look to it um if you want to specify we like the tow houses we don't like tow houses we want um we'd like to develop some that are um Ada accessible or you know a age friendly like that we certainly specify that we don't have to make those decisions right now I think that what we're more looking at is what kind of style you all are comfortable with if you prefer more of the the look of the single family residence um as opposed to something that is so we could have a couple different options so we can both say we like the cottage and we like the single family sort of look we' like more of the sort of clustered you know homes around an open space or we like more of what this is which is more of like a culdesac in front of the homes so sort of those kind of um stylistic features so that they can come up with some different ideas based on our land is what I understand they're looking for okay well for me I don't mind the look of these houses but I don't like the layout with the you know with the parking all in front I prefer the other layout the first layout where where there's more GRE Green Space the um these are all the green spaces behind each person I like the more Community Green Space um that's me I don't know about you guys I would agree yeah I do I I like the like cluster around an open space which is what you're referring to and I I I think a much nicer look yeah you know I else to the um the development and I don't know if it's a I don't know what it is in devans you had talked about it I think David too and they kind of do the same thing they have a little Loop that goes around and inside the loop is it's all common space like a little Park that that sits in front of a whole bunch of houses and you know um it's not the whole development but but it gives you some open space that's accessible to everybody so I think that's important I think it's important too that they do look like houses I like these style houses like it should look like you know we don't want to just build an apartment building you know or or a you know like I think it's important that they look like houses whether they're the cottage or whether they're this kind of Farmhouse design or but but it's important that it look like houses and then it be welcoming and friendly so I on this one I might even like this better if they had the um the parking around the back and where the parking is if that were all green I I would almost like that better if you know which is more like what Westford was like you know the parking was kind of behind the houses and the open space in the middle so because the parking lot's a little tough here but but then you don't know the lot constraints but true true but so these are the things that will be able to be um discussed at a later date of especially once the designers have a chance to sort of look at the space and see what we can what we can fit and what we can work within our zoning um they have aine did they have a timeline on that Aon so they told me that once I provided the um sort of suggestions of what type of housing it would probably be about two to three weeks before we heard back um with either designs or if it would work on the property or not okay um but Cindy you brought up the um style of housing would you all prefer town houses versus apartment on top and bottom or whatever would sort of work best or something we want to work through later I think it's def it's something we have to think about but I think we like because like a townhouse design isn't going to work for for older people I don't think I mean maybe that's just my my take on it um so I don't know yeah do we have to decide that right now or maybe we should have to think about it no I just want to see if there was something if there was strong feelings then I can say we have to you know make sure that there there are no townhouse style or we could even see if there could be a mix or things like that but we don't I don't believe that has to be decided right now it's more about the style that you're looking to have and then they'll poose some some different options and and maybe it's something that could be a mix because if if if the housing is going to be a mix or you know I mean you can always the developer should be able to say x number of units will be you know handicap accessible or X number of units will be one level or and and then maybe other people have a different way maybe they would prefer a townhouse because maybe they have kids and would be like yes send the kids upstairs or you know and so I mean it might it might depend but I don't think it should be all tow houses I think I think we need a mix of of things in there I think if anyone else agrees with that I I don't think a mix aesthetically is going to look great but it really depends on how much acreage we have to put together and I think if it's economically driven then the developers can tell us look you know we can we can do something if we can do tow houses because multi-story is cheaper for us I don't know well that's that's I think what I would comment that you know we want us too see how we get the most bang for our buck too not that we want we want this to just be want to concentrate solely on cost but still if there's some some method that is more costeff effective and still very aesthetically pleasing has all the things that we want but we certainly want our money to um go as far as we can yeah and you know what I it's clarify when I say a mix I think you can have um a two-story building you know but you have to decide is that building G to be is each unit going to be a first and second floor or is the or the units going to be unit one is on the first floor and unit two is on the second floor I think they could work that out because I think at the end of the day I think you're right we would probably get more out of out of doing like a building with two stores and um you know that's that's why they build so many Colonials and not as many ranches because it's you know it's it's not as costly you get more out of it but um so I think you're right on that but that's what I meant like I think whether it's units with a first and a second floor or units that are all on one level one could be on the first floor one could be on the second floor does that make sense I don't know to me yeah okay I agree with with all of that I do want to look at the last one can you scroll to the last one oh back up a minute back up down to this one what what do you guys think of that I'm okay with this one too it kind of has the colonial look to it and with this you know the um you know is it first floor is it second floor how are we looking at three unit is this three units or two or more or four how many units this looks to me like I'm I'm wondering if the two end units are twostory and then that little doorway takes you to the you know second floor apartment and then the other doorway um takes you can't see me pointing the one with like the bay window kind of is a first floor unit or something like that you know I like the look of this too for connected they they're similar the first one the third one and this one they're similar or the you know those three are similar in the outside look of it where they aren't like you know the porches aren't boom boom right next to each other they're kind of you know offset I like that look so does something like this maybe they're all this way but something like this kind of a design assuming this is three or four units is like a condo in other words there would have to be fees for you know it's one roof it's one paint job it's one landscaping job it's I'm not sure how these utilities would be split up but they would obviously have to be split up um is that what we're looking at here in other words this affordable housing is comes with what would I I'm I'm going to call it a condo I don't know if that's the right word for it but I mean that's am I right and that's how this would have to be organized as opposed to freestanding single you know like the Westford situation or maybe Westford was the same was our West I remind me were Westford two units together or were they single they were single but their condos they're all attached underneath they have attached foundations um so it might also be that uh for instance the like condo association fee just as an example is a part of the rent right so it just might be that it's um like part of the utilities I'm not sure that's that might be something we have to sort of figure out later down the line um but okay I mean I mean this this looks like it's it's a very cost effective way for for a developer it seems this is this is an kind of an easy easier way to go I don't mind the look of it I think it's okay yeah yeah I'm good with the look of this the very efficient use of space so go to the very last [Music] one uh this is I think this is probably the most efficient use but I don't like this so much I thought I it more than I did but I don't so much what do you guys think yeah yeah that would be my least favorite this this is what um the chicken it looks like a chicken coop the chicken Koopa approach kind of you know I I don't know this is my least favorite of all of them right I agree yeah if you're going to connect them all together I like the one that we just looked at um better yeah although you know this this one I like it the least so I'm not saying this what I want to do but but it's probably the cheapest to build and maintain you know but but that doesn't mean we we have to do that you know I I don't know that doesn't mean we have to do it you got a builder that on a small parcel this will I mean maybe this is the way to go on a small parcel yeah EXA yeah like this is on 3.65 Acres 39 family affordable apartments wow um wow yeah H so I I wonder what the entry is to each of those apartments because I don't see 39 outside doors you know yeah no but it's like an apartment you know there's common common areas and then I think we're looking at it backyard we're looking at it from the rear good thank you right right yeah yeah so are we safe to say that the the other three that we looked at are not the ren the one that we only have the rendering that one's hard to tell but the other three are are okay yeah yeah yeah okay yeah so maybe get back to them with that and um and hopefully we'll have something sooner rather than later for what can be done on our parcel all right I will share that with them okay anything else on this on on 2.4 only I noted that thing that the uh CPA funds um were applied to at least two or three of those um and it looked like I think it was helmouth that uh had almost a million dollars in CPA funds that was allocated towards that project did you notice that for felma pretty amazing long time I think to generate and that's assuming that it would be earmarked for affordable housing but I found it interesting that Falmouth was able to put together almost a million dollars towards that yeah that's just a an observation all right anything else are do you need to go Cindy oh no we can't hear her anymore we can't hear you Cindy you muted yourself okay okay can you hear me now I I apologize for arriving late and leaving early but I do have to go so good luck with everything else we'll talk soon all right thank you Cindy bye bye um 2.5 the inclusionary zoning bylaw um and the MSA designation um so eron do you wna say anything or do you want me to go I I this was in our packets and Aeron has been working on this bylaw uh for us so I can speak a little bit on the um inclusionary zoning by law um it's current so we have it currently as the affordable housing conditional density bonus um it has never been used which means it's probably not very effective um let me um so this is a draft that I put together um both looking at our bylaw as well as surrounding towns um mrpc sent me a great tool that allows us to see what towns around us have inclusionary zoning a a quick glance at what the inclusionary zoning is and how often it's been used so how effective it's been um part of this is from I think I took stuff from Air Shirley um Ashby uh uh brought and I looked at a whole bunch of different towns and sort of pieced a couple things together um but some of the things that I think are sort of uh we should really look at here are I maybe made some assumptions that I don't know if you all will agree with but here we go um so I took out that it had to be a part of the uh open space preservation or open space multif family development and said that it was um with any developments of eight or more units so that means if somebody wanted to come in and do a huge development of let's say you know uh 20 homes that they would have to have 10% of all those units be uh sold and maintained at affordable prices um so 10% is not a huge number but it would help us with that housing stock um I think that eight is a pretty reasonable uh number to look at um anything above eight because then you're starting to get into where you have um the more units that you have the the pricing might start to come down at that point because you're bringing in a whole bunch of materials already so you already have that sort of mobilization cost um I think that the affordability rates which is something that we've talked about before with the Metropolitan statistical area um as a part of this I have it that it would be the pl uh the planning board the housing authority and the affordable housing trust would determine what the affordable pricing what affordable means here in townend um because that's something that when Veronica and I met with uh HUD they said that we might be able to do that through our zoning bylaws if we felt that the um the affordable the affordability for our area was too high um so we're looking at tackling that in a different way so I added it into the inclusion area zoning bylaw here this is something that would be Revisited with the uh housing production plan which is supposed to be redone every five years um so that way it's something that is not a static number but something that we are revisiting again and again um to ensure that it is keeping up with whatever the housing Market looks like here in Townsend and in the surrounding areas we can make sure that it truly is Affordable um I also added in here that uh lots that are not informing or uh traditional in terms of size um may be able to get a special permit so long to uh to increase that density or to allow for building on that property so long as a minimum of one unit is made affordable in the development so for instance if you had um you know it's 2 acre zoning and you have a lot that's an acre and a half so you can't technically build on that uh where you want to put that single family residence if you make it two three four units then you might be able to uh go ahead and uh forego that density through a special permit so it would still be a process they might say no we don't want four units we only want three or we want two but it would add that affordability clause in there once again um helping to make it so that um lots that are typically not zoned for uh that would work traditionally are able to be built on um in this way we can really sort of think about creative ways of building housing on lots that are non-conforming um one what else do we have in here um so looking at the sale price so right now we have I think it's a 30e um I changed that to a minimum of 40 years so it could typically it could technically be in perpetuity but um I think in saying that it's a maximum of 30 years to changing it to a minimum of 40 years gives us a little bit more um stretch that time a little bit more so we do keep that affordable housing in town even if it's not for imp perpetuity um for forever but we do have more time on that and I think those are sort of the the major changes that I made oh yeah sorry it's down here that I was looking at the 40-year minimum instead of Max maximum um and also that if there's any units that get sold um that are not s sold affordable that were previously affordable those the difference in the purchase price would go towards a um a fund for creating more affordable housing so we hopefully won't lose any units but if we were to then it's sort of a fail safe to help provide us with more funding going forward would that be inflation adjusted so that would be based on whatever yeah because the um the units are it's a percentage of the market rate for what they are sold so if just because the unit was built in 1990 does not mean that it stays at 1990 prices it would be 2024 prices whatever the market is take 80% of that or whatever um so this would be the same sort of thing you just take that percentage to that difference um so this was what I have been working away in the background on um it's a lot of this I actually had something very different and then um the town where I live I took a lot of this from um the zoning that had just been been passed so uh it works in another town so hopefully it wouldn't work here as well I definitely tailored it two towns and and uh took some pieces from other places as well but I liked a lot of the ideas that were a part of that and said yeah let's let's give it a try let's see what you all think and then if you all like it we can bring it back to um the planning board and see how they feel and see where we can go from there have you any initial feedback from the planning board yet based on this or or no I brought this to you all first um I have spoken to um Beth baxton in my office she is the um planning board um administrator and she um is hopeful she likes the sound of it was my question okay good and where it go yeah I I agree I think it's you know I think it's ready for prime time you know to get a another look at it see what the planning board thinks and then go from there I just want to make one statement under I guess it's um sale price um and the affordable housing units piece of this um we had we had talked about the um MSA uh before and uh the HUD the HUD you know you know groupings and when we talk to HUD they were not really amenable to changing that they they're but they did say that what we could do is in in a bylaw use their ways of calculating things for communities and use that spec and and apply it specifically to Townson and Aaron did say this so we're abandoning the idea of trying to change those designations and instead build it into the bylaw with under affordability you know what is an affordable what is that b under definitions um affordable housing units and then also sale price so build it in there are those the only two places Aaron or was there someone outse somewhere else that's where I saw it I think that's right I'd want to do a second path but um I think you're correct um so that's so we're not even going to try to deal with changing those um you know uh designations or regrouping the towns Etc they they weren't really amenable to that I I don't think so anyway but we can make things specific to towns and with a bylaw and that's what's important really for us so so um do we need a motion for you to take it to the planning board or um if you want to make it official sure um but I can also um if you all feel comfortable just go ahead and um provide it to to Beth and she can fit it into their agenda where she sees fit okay I'm good with that what do you guys think we're fine all right so thank you Aaron this is this is wonderful um yeah thanks Aon you rock hopefully we'll be able to make a difference um moving on to 2.6 mandatory referral one Depot Street um moving things over as I go this is separate from what was sent to them by us correct to the things that we responded to since our um or or is this incorporating it no this is just um all of those comments together I just wanted to provide them all to you so that um you could see them all in one place um but there's there's been no change okay all right um did I I think I sent that to everybody did I yeah I got it you did not oh sorry I wasn't it in with the um with the email on that had the um minutes it wasn't in the or was it in the packet remember it was in one or the other those are the two that we got it and that's how I got it but either way I will pull it up now okay okay um so this includes all of the comments from um from you all you basically all said the same thing but I included them all together so that um it could be submitted to the planning board as the mandatory referral comment from um from the affordable housing trust and Veronica signed it on behalf of everyone okay it's still going through the planning board um but these comments will be provided to them great thank you sure all right moving on to 2.7 the forestry contract for Han Road um did everybody look at the cutting plans no I I don't I haven't seen anything back from the forestry the Forester um it was in do you want to pop those up Aon um and and there was also so let's look at the plans first I guess so it was in the the folder that I sent all to you all the packet um so this is for Hanes okay and if you want to take a closer look later um you should have the link to that be able to see it um he has two stands go to the um picture the next page yeah that one he has two stands and um in the forestry plan he delineates uh what types of um wood he expects to take from each stand and he talks about the um the the uh Wetland Crossing in uh stand one there's a wetland Crossing up there I I thought he did a good job what surprised me was the buffer I thought we were doing a buffer all the way around but he has the buffer uh just in Stand one up in that um uh right hand corner and then in the lower right hand corner along the abutter where the cutting has already taken place and then along the Wallace Hill Road entry but I thought he was going to put it all the way around so that surprised me well and also along hannes road I don't I would assume there'd be a buffer from the road road except yeah I don't see that on hannes Wallace Hill I see but hannes doesn't look like there's any what is the L at hannes what is that um designate maybe it's an arrow is that an what is that yeah doesn't say yeah no it doesn't doesn't I'm looking at the key there and yeah um I see all you know l e LF um lead is Le um but it's just L yeah um where yeah I didn't know this that Dave so good call um I mean maybe that's where his skid is going to be positioned and he needs it there I I don't know that could be yeah that we can ask right but yeah the main thing was the screen from the road was important we thought aesthetically it would be nice you right do how do why do you feel that should be a buffer all the way around is there any particular reason um just just to prevent um encroachment on AB budding properties that was why I had had um considered that not only for you know view or visualization or whatever but also for encroachment on embedding properties but it looks like there's a stone wall bound um on a lot of this and if that's the case the stone wall bound should hold in that case might not be as important so where the stone wall ends on the left side on the Wallace Hill Road side of things where that stonebound ends what further up above that yeah just just keep sliding it down what's what's all that where there's no bound is that that would just be yeah we don't know um because we haven't surveyed this property so he has to go by the abutters plans when he creates this and they usually do I mean they do so um it does look like there's some wet it's close to that edge anyway at least part of it so that's that helps okay so um so on this one we might want to ask about the buffer to hannes Road and that could be the elk could be his Landing you know and that's that uh in which case keeping a buffer could be tough right there yeah you all had said before that you wanted a buffer around the entire property do you that's in the that's in the scope of work is that no longer case or do we want to push back and say that's what we asked for I would like the buffer only because we've never surveyed this property and and my concern was um uh if encroachment you know it's similar to what we had on that with the abutter who did the cutting himself you know how do we know that we haven't encroached if we have not surveyed so when we know the line on the right now will be surveyed um but or at least some part of that line will be um I don't know Dave and Beverly what do you guys think do you want to uh continue um go push back on that and say we wanted the buffer all the way around that was the thing that surprised me okay well here here's the question Ronnie do you feel that the stone bounds which is a good good deal of this perimeter are good enough so wouldn't have to survey the whole thing or do you feel like these Stone balances may be arbitrary and may may be an issue in my experience if you have a stone bound it's been in this town it's been there a long time it's on the plans and it's usually correct it it would be unusual for it not to be because those stones those stones haven't been moved in a very very long time um and so the the concern would more be that the abuts would be shocked that we're cutting all the way up to their property line and it becomes uh I mean if you were to look out your back door and where you had Woods all of a sudden you didn't have Woods or even a buffer I think we'll get complaints on that that's what I think and that's why I would push back I'd like well I'd like to lay a on it before committing into doing a survey of the whole thing okay if we were just surveying if we're only surveying a small portion of it which to me is you know on the Wallace Hillside you on the left there at the top that's not that big a deal but if if your concern is that you know even with the stone wall it's still could be an issue I'd like to lay eyes on it before we because it because it'll cut down no put in it'll cut down on the amount of of Timber that can be harvested considerably if I mean what's what would what we doing 20 feet what would what what would you consider a buffer how many feet we said how much Aron 20 I think it was 30 but I can check real fast that's even more I mean so a 30 foot buffer is going to be a significant amount of of Timber that can't be touched so like I said I think maybe laying eyes on it first and seeing if it's a big issue or not I we don't know on the other side of those that of that perimeter we don't know how much um Timber exists right now do we no I mean I don't I he kind of he gives an estimate for the type in the um charts in the first couple of pages he does give an estimate of what he um uh you know he's doing a 60% cut uh you know greater than 10 inches and he he estimates what type of wood he's taking and he's doing a 60% cut leaving 40% so it's not a clear cut by any means you know so we said a 30 foot buffer we said a 30 foot buffer on the entire perimeter right yeah and he's doing it just along the roadways sort of not even along ha hayne's road but that's not a wide entry and he's putting his Landing there so it may be impossible there Dave if you want to go out there and walk we can set up a time and go and walk well I mean if we're going to survey it to me it's going to be a basic whatever we get for the cut is going to the survey I don't think we'll have a dime left over so all we get all we get out of it is some land for the developer we've done a little bit of the developers work for for he or she the develop but other than that it just seems like a wash right at best we're not going to there's no money in it if we do I I me am I wrong I mean the survey is gonna be it will it will you know even out so um so so I mean I think I think we should look at it and then decide whether we want to go in that direction I'm I'm not advocating one way or the other except that I think you know if we see it we can make a better judgment I kind of I agree with you because if it's all Woods it's not a big deal if it's open land all the way to the um to the stone wall and we and we're then cutting the trees even if it is a 60% cut not a 100% cut um anyway I mean maybe we'll end up maybe looking at it we'll say look you know what we need a 30 foot buffer from you know point x to point Y you know just one part of it we want you to add another 30 feet buffer but not the whole thing not everywhere where there there's you haven't already done it that that may but again we have to see it so yeah let's let's pick a pick a time and that works and you know take take a take a little survey we can do that do you have a day in time that works Dave um for me um yeah well we should do it before the snow is on the ground yes we should do it sooner rather than later so we can get this done with the Forester and not you know drag it out too much longer so are you around this weekend uh no this weekend well wait a minute no is it is this the Friday morning how about Friday morning Friday morning for you not for me no um I could do it on Friday Bev cannot okay I can't do it on Saturday Okay Friday morning I I'll go I'll go with you or we can do Thursday afternoon uh hang on one sec what's Thursday sorry 21st Thursday is even better and maybe Bev could join us this week I'm no out straight okay don't worry about it uh yeah let's do Thursday okay is two o'clock good what time two we can do it earlier we could do one I could do one I'm I'm I'm open Thursday's good so one o'clock Thursday okay um you want to meet over there or do you want to meet at my house or your house go one um either way it's good Let let's meet at um at your house that way we only take one car okay good so come come to my house and we'll go one car okay that sounds good one o' one o'clock Thursday Perfect all right um can we move on to the next plan then you want to put Hickory Drive up it's kind of the same deal on this and it's stone walls on either side you know um and he did block out and that L is his Landing he comes in from Hickory Drive so he's gonna be pulling those big trucks out on Hickory Drive that'll be um a shock to the neighborhood I'll bet um sou row is South Row is not an option for him looks like not that that would be any better um he's not cutting that at all but I mean that's um that's the neighborhood the only way in and out [Music] yeah okay on on this talk about how that's he was that's where we walked in with him though when we did the walk with him so he's aware yep um yep anyway um he he gives the buffer on both ends but not on the sides and again it's the stone wall we walked down there and there's um the abutters there aren't really houses on either ends there that's all pretty much open space where he doesn't have it angled you know um I don't know but there's wall there's a stone wall right there's a Stonewall all the way on one side and a Stonewall most of the way on the other side well the only thing my comment about the where his Landing is is is that that that spot to go in and out if and when this has ever developed you need a way in and out anyway yes now he could do a certain he could do a certain amount of restoration we could ask him to do or we could do just to clean up that I don't know 20 foot wide 30 foot wide I'm not sure how wide he's going to need but it'll be at least 20 feet probably more we could ask them to restore that to some extent or you know or again we could allocate some funds from this to restore it ourselves um but you know at some point there has to be a way in yes yeah I I don't know why I kind of thought he would go in from South Row Road not from Hickory Drive but um that's me I I don't know why I thought that but I did so and some I think he's probably using the logging roads that already exist out there because when we walked out there there were already roads pretty wide logging roads former logging roads out there and I'm guessing he's reusing them which isn't a bad idea so I'm not as concerned yeah I mean terms of I don't because you say there's not residences on on either side correct are there is it open yeah I think it's the well up behind Ash Street um on the one side and on the other side uh it's it's Woods so you you would eventually come to houses but it wouldn't be quite as shocking there aren't residences right along that line whereas on Wallace Hill Road there is so now he hasn't filed this yet right are these plans subject to our approval is that before he files them correct so yeah the the Forester sent these over for you all to see and approve and have signed by the town prior to them going filed with State okay and well I think after running I take a look after we look at at the other one um I think we'll be able to respond to him there's one other piece so do you want to put up the agent sheet there um this one I've never in in any Forest cutting that I've done in my experience with the land trust this is a form that I've never seen before um so it's not that I object so much as I would like town I at least would like Town Council to review it prior to us um signing it and we also need because the land is owned by the town is this I know that it was transferred to us but who makes this designation is it the affordable housing trust or is it the select board so I would I would would like um Town Council to weigh in on this agreed so um if if that's the case I think we need um then a motion uh to sign the Appointment of Agent form after review by Town Council or to have signature by either the Housing Trust or the select board after review by Town Council so I think make it motion simply to agree to have this Appointment of Agent form um reviewed by Town Council prior to it being signed by any entity the entity being determined by Town Council sounds good second second all right uh any further discussion on this all right roll call vote um beginning with Beverly name and and uh vote uh Beverly naor I vote Yes David David War I vote Yes and Veronica C yes all right um so Erin are you good with what to get back to Kyle with and and to um Town Council yeah I'll let U Kyle know that we are um in a holding pattern again okay thank you but hopefully it won't be a long one so and if everything is good with that we'll we'll go forward so yeah all right um 2.8 is to look at um meeting dates um we set up quarterly meeting dates for us um the next meeting would be February 17th May 19th August 18th and November 17th just so we have quarterly meetings set so right now our next meeting will be on February 17th if everybody's good with that and then we can okay the next quarterly meeting that's fine yeah to the meeting is that good uh we fly on yeah yeah yes they're all good for us okay and we can yeah well Cindy the February 17th and then you know if we do if something would come back from MHP or whatever we'll call a meeting 48 hours in advance if there's something for to um discuss in the meantime so all right we don't need a motion for that correct consensus is good right aarin yeah so all right um 2.9 is the um discussion of the open meeting law complaint um this is the open meeting law complaint um uh filed on October 24th by IND the king um it's been distributed to the affordable housing trust so I just want to um confirm that everybody has received it so Beverly and David have you both received um the complaint I have yes yes uh a as have I um so uh I'll provide my thoughts on the resolution to move forward um the let me just get these so I have the complaint um the meeting on October 7th so here's my resol uh resolution the meeting on October 7th 2024 was held both via zoom and in the selectman's chambers with the town's housing administrator in the chambers and all members on Zoom the agenda listed both the chambers and zoom for location and um I would attach the October 7th agenda if you see that it says meeting in the chambers and there is a zoom Link at no time was the public unable to attend the meeting in fact the complain and syic King attended the meeting in the chambers sat at the table with the housing administrator who was participating in the meeting and recorded the meeting as was noted in the complaint all right as for the thing about the um agenda referencing the wrong date uh there was a clerical error in the agenda that was missed as there had been both a joint housing trust Housing Authority meeting that was on September 12th and a Housing Trust meeting which was September 4th in September um the complaint had um the oml complaint from September 18th that was being discussed at the October 7th meeting this is editorial had um it said oml complaint TT and because the thh meeting was on September 4th it was just um misconstrued the September 12th meeting was actually a Housing Trust Housing Authority joint meeting um an effort will be made to proof fre agendas more thoroughly going forward um the next part was that um uh had to do with the the com the uh well the October 7th tht meeting was held to respond to the oml complaint regarding the September 12th meeting that was filed against taht also by Cindy king during the meeting on SE October 7th the board in its response to the September 18th oml complaint agreed to oml training as the trust agreed to oml training as a result of the 712th oml complaint and subsequent October 7th meeting on this complaint the trust would greatly appreciate patience as our efforts in oml training is currently underway beginning after the decided action at the October 7th meeting as far as non-roll call votes taken at the October 7th meeting for the motion to accept the response to the September oml complaint and for the motion to adjourn these were ratified at the November 18th meeting of TT as indicated in the October 7th response to the September 18th oml complaint the taht members will complete oml training we've received the Attorney General's um well actually the um training modules uh from the Attorney General's office that are on mass.gov and we're in the process of completing them sincerely Veronica Kelch so does anybody have anything else that they would like to add to this response at this time these are suggestions onto how we should move forward to address the complaint of October 24th um against the October 7 meeting would you have anything else that you'd like to add or should we use this as the plan to address the complaint since Cindy king is not here what I'm about to say is probably well she is here I think she's on the zoom meeting are you here if you would allow me to have a little bit uh no thank you Cindy I'm going to let David talk um I'm simply going to say this and I I've thought about this a lot thank you Dave okay go ahead and start over simply say this if this is going to be the way that we move forward in other words if this response is going to end what I consider to be complaints that are hypercritical comments about the oml and do not contribute to constructive comments to further the mission of this board then my position is not to engage at all period this is I signed up for this as a volunteer to spend my time to try to help further the mission of this board and if we're going to spend an undue amount of time with these very in my opinion hypocritical comments about oml which is there's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law and the spirit of in my opinion the mission of this board has been moving forward very nicely but to go after the letter of the law on these oml complaints over and over and over and over again will make me resign from this board so I hope that this is the last time we're going to go through this and if it's not you can consider that I'm going to resign that's my position I will accept Ronnie's way of addressing this right now provided this is the last time we go through this level of oml complaint and having to deal with this this is a complete distraction it's not helpful to our mission and I will spend zero time doing this in the future that's my position I have nothing else to say so I I will Beverly go ahead I I will say that this um I don't believe that the spirit of the these complaints is in the betterment of the running of the town there seems to be some other agenda here that I don't understand I think David is absolutely correct that we have um as volunteers we're taking time out of our Lives to do to accomplish this m mission on behalf of the town and I think you know it would be nice if we could just do that and not spin our wheels on these other things I mean I don't think we have any ill intent or evil intent here you know we're like David says we're trying to abide by the spirit of the law so my comment to add to that is this meeting the October 7th meeting was a meeting to address um an open meeting law complaint which was legitimate and which was acknowledged as such and in which the board agreed to open meeting law training it seems that filing an open meeting law complaint against a board that has just agreed in the meeting that the complaint is filed against um that they broke the open meeting law is ludicrous and seems to um uh um fall in line with exactly what David and Beverly just said so we do have a mission to accomplish and we would very much like to accomplish that mission um and uh and we are doing the open meeting law um uh training so uh with that said is there a motion to accept the response to the October 7th open meeting law complaint that we receive the Octo the October 24th open meeting law complaint against the October 7th meeting oh this is my whole point that I have to remember this and I have to say it exactly this way in order to as letter of the law and I'm sorry I'm not going to make that motion someone else can make it all right so we're moving to geez what are these dates you have to repeat it and I'll write it down um moving to the motion is to accept um the response to the October 24th open meeting law complaint and let's just leave it at that okay I make a move to accept the response to the October 24th October 24th meeting law open meeting law complaint open meeting law complaint open meeting law complaint um and I will second that so we need a roll call vote starting with Beverly Beverly naier I am move to accept David Worland I move to accept and I I will uh let's just say you vote to accept I also vote to accept the response all right thank you very much um is there any correspondence this is um moving on to 210 any correspondence or Clerk's announcements I believe that the only correspondence was the um the forestry contract okay that's the only thing I have in the pack and I usually drag it over soon as I get it so good okay so that's it and with that is there a motion to adjourn at 2:31 PM I move to adjourn the meeting at 2:31 PM second a second um all those in favor roll call votes so Beverly Beverly mayor I vote Yes David Worland i v yes and Veronica cell yes all right thank you very much next meeting February 17th all right and David I will see you you know on Thursday all right bye everyone one o'clock thank you one o'clock