##VIDEO ID:CTir5E8u2Vc## okay good evening everyone my name is Laura shiffon and I'll call the meeting to order of the planning board of September 9th 2024 at 6:35 p.m. a little late sorry for the delay um we don't need a roll call though but you can introduce yourselves okay Carol hopus Lance MCN braan P Andrew Shepard and La shff if you join me in the pledge of [Music] allei United States of America and to the for stands one nation God indivisible andice for like to thank all of our veterans as well as all of our military currently serving and all of our emergency First Responders appreciate you meeting is being uh recorded and then can be viewed on town of towns and YouTube channel I do not have any additions to the meeting tonight but I will say that we're uh going to be cutting the agenda short that is not able to be with us this evening uh 1.5 approval discussion of the draft of the August 26 2024 meeting minutes and I'll entertain a motion I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of August 26 2024 is there a second I'll second thank you Lance any discussion seeing none Robert any comments fine fine thank you take a vote all in favor of approval of the minutes of August 26 2024 say I I any opposed say no okay thank you so much approved 1.6 the administrative report um time to read it uh yes we have 645 our appointment okay um Nelson mu began his post as Town Administrator as of 26th August welcome to him uh if applications anticipated applications 27 scales Lane ongoing request for certificate of completion pending waiting for board approval uh 22 Main Street ongoing the board extended the special permit to October 7 2024 by unanimous vote at their July 22nd 2024 meeting uh 108 fburg Road planning board decision to Grant special permits and Stor Water Management permits signed in SM permit issued special permits are in the appeal period uh two site visits in compliance 98-100 West Meadow Road owner has been advised that the storm water management permit is required 108-110 d112 West Meadow Road 108 West Meadow Road license to enter agreement received and on file waiting on owner's owner to request certificate of completion um Campell Farm ospd last residential dwelling under construction request for storm water certificate of of compliance ongoing 94 fitzburg Road Three real three wheeler Road not complying with the St Water Management eight construction phase inspection reports not in comping not in comping with sm8 monthly construction phase inspection reports um five Turn Pike not comping with S8 construction phase inspection reports waiting for project status update from per then miscellaneous planning board liaison CH durini resigned from his position on September 5th 2024 we will inform the board of your new leaz on once the appointment is confirmed new flood maps in the Nashville Watershed ongoing the planning board will be working on new zoning bylaws for spring uh annual town meeting 2025 master plan imp implementation ongoing discussed at the 82624 board meeting and updated tables of the master plan um hmp MVP implementation is ongoing discuss at the 82624 board meeting and updated tables of the plan uh the 2020 hmp MVP Plan update action items needs project management lead grant funding will need to be updated this year to help the town avoid a lapse in its approved plan status in great eligibility when the current plan expires at the end of year 2025 uh accessory apart BW and state law compliance ongoing action joeoy mrpc uh partner with town to revise 14536 accessory apartment and residential districts draft a new Adu local bylaw to comply with the state [Applause] law non-discretionary site plan review by law ongoing Jo Joe Bole mrpc partnering with town to write and write and adopt a new dawn discretionary site plan review uh MBTA Community La zoning compliance ongoing Jo spoil NRP see partnering with Town action items finalized public hearing dates finalize District 3 MF overlay District submitt of draft mod byw in overlay District Attorney General and the executive office of Housing and liable communities for review waiting for board approval cing board member SharePoint resource folder serves as a resource library and includes information for new members update for veteran members and self-paced learning opportunities and finally towns and Pittsburgh commun shuttle all service is On Demand only WR is book one day in advance a pickup from both shuttle stocks Town Hall of Fitchburg into tomor the flyer is on the website submitted by bethon I would just like to say as chair of the planning board that um we are very grateful to the years of service that Chaz gave to us as liaison as well as a previous planning board member as well as the towns and Housing Authority as well as the towns and Housing Trust and um his years as a selectman um I believe he was the glue that held us together uh for about five or six years actually with the administration of the Town Hall [Music] um Katie I see that you're on we're almost at 6:45 would you like to start hi Katie whatever works for you guys you let me know I'm here as long as or when you need me so okay well um we can do you next we can do you now actually okay okay do you want to say anything or you want me to kind of just jump in it's your guys's meeting so I don't want to make assumptions no you can just jump in and with whatever updates you have and then the board will have any questions if they have them perfect okay well thank you for allowing me to be here to speak to you guys tonight my name is Katie paid I'm a flood plane management specialist within the flood Hazard Management program within DCR we are the State Coordinating agency of the national flood insurance program um so the reason that I'm here tonight is to talk um kind of a little teeny bit High 10,000 foot level um background on the national flood insurance program but then Townsen is actually one of the communities in the nationville river Watershed who's receiving new flood insurance rate maps in the next year so I'm just going to give a little update on those maps and then what the community needs to do in order to remain compliant and good in the program when those new maps go into effect um next year so if that sounds good I'll give a quick like 10,000 foot high level overview because sometimes I think it helps to give a little bit of background so so the national flood insurance program or nfip um it's a voluntary program that communities um voluntarily join and they agreed to adopt and enforce at least the minimum regulations as specified by FEMA and then in return flood insurance is made available um to everyone in the community so Townson joined back on I have the date right here it's on August 2nd 1982 so it's been quite a few years quite a few decades the community's been within the program um so as I mention to join the program you have to adopt and enforce um regulations so in Massachusetts those minimum regulations are in three different locations the first is they're in State Building Code second is they're in the wetlands protection act and the third is that there's a portion of them that are in your local um bylaws and ordinances and that's what I'm going to be talking about here tonight um so those regulations that are in your local bylaws and your ordinances um those apply to the 1% chance flood and the areas mapped as the 1% chance flood by FEMA on their flood insurance rate maps and those are the maps that are going to be updated that we're going to talk about um in just a minute the only other thing I wanted to note before we move on talking about those Maps is just a little bit about flood insurance because as I mentioned by participating in the program you're allowing anyone in your community to purchase flood insurance um so through the national flood insurance program as a participating participating Community excuse me anybody can purchase that in your community it doesn't just have to be if they're in the flood plane or out so that can be um if they're on the top of the hill if they're right at the bottom of the hill right next to the river um if they're a renter if they're a business owner if they're the property owner all that's available through the national flood insurance program um and there are times when flood insurance is required and that's is if it is a condition of a federally backed mortgage so if anybody has a federally backed mortgage or a loan or a lean or whatever it may be um they may be required to have flood insurance for the life of that that mortgage loan lean whatever it may be um so just a couple like quick statistics before we jump into your bylaw um but you have 17 policies in place through the national flood insurance program within the community and that covers about 5.2 million in flood insurance coverage um and that's through the national flood insurance program there is obviously private flood insurance available I don't have any um information on that that would all be private through that you know that homeowner that renter that business owner and their insurance provider that's just the 1 policies is what's through the national flood insurance program and all I have is that high level aggregate number for that as well so question on the um flood insurance policies through the national do they tend to be more cost effective than privately or do not that so it varies generally that that is that is the trend but there's I'm sure there's situations where that's not through um so again that private flood insurance that's private between you know that person and that policy holder um obviously that's the same thing with Federal but the federal at least you can get that high level aggregate numbers you know we would never know like this exact policy at this house is this much but we know like for example there's 17 policies in place there's 5.2 you know Million worth of coverage so we know that amount of level um as well but typically typically you know with the asterisk take it with a grain of salt um the national coverage is would be more affordable for somebody than through private but there's always exceptions to that so okay thank you yeah so um as I mentioned Townsen is part of the national River Watershed um so again those regulations are enforced um everywhere mapped as FEMA that 1% chance flood that's the flood that FEMA chose to use for this program many years ago back in the 60s when it was created um and so FEMA updates those Maps periodically so as part of the Nashville River Watershed those new maps are expected to um become effective next year um so part of that the community will need to update your local regulations um to make sure that you're compliant with the program and there's two parts in that um so the two things that we were looking at um sorry for everybody who didn't um see that before our office had provided a review of towns and's um local flood plane District bylaws I don't know if everybody saw that beforehand and um I can certainly send it again to either Jessica or Beth who I coordinated prior to attending this meeting um afterwards but so a review was provided and that was against our state model bylaw and that state model bylaw has all the necessary pieces that need to be included um to remain compliant in the program so those additional pieces that are missing um there's just a handful will need to be adopted in and then the other part that needs to happen is the town would need to adopt that new map date now here's where gets tricky because we don't know what that new map date is so what FEMA does is they issue what they call a letter of final determination an lfd um we know how the government loves their abbreviation so another abbreviation right the lfd and they'll issue that six months prior to that effective date and so we'll know at that time what that date is that needs to be adopted um into your your ordinance to replace your current 2010 map date but we won't know that until that's issued um at this point we are expecting through our coordination with FEMA um for that to be that lfd that six-month kind of date to be issued probably this December and the reason we do it we ask FEMA to do it then is because then it gives six months so all towns can get through you know that there's their Springtown meeting before those maps go effective to adopt any changes um so what we're encouraging is we're working with communities now they're working through the model bylaw looking at incorporating those things so then when that letter of f determination comes out and we know that official date effective date that can just be added in and then everything's good to go through your amendment process and then eventually up to town meeting so that's an overview of the process and what we're looking at do you guys have any questions about that or something I can elaborate on no sounds good okay um do you have a synopsis of like um through the years since we've been involved or joined whatever since 1982 through the years do you have a synopsis of perhaps if the areas have gotten bigger or smaller or what are we looking at more restrictions or less yeah so it really varies per area and it varies for community so there's kind of two factors that's going into that um so as each time these new maps are updated obviously new map studies are being done right and so for example the maps that's going to become effective there's been development that has happened since those previous maps that happened in 2010 and not only in towns but within the Watershed itself because everything's at like a watershed level right and so because of that other development the flood plane has shifted some so you might find areas are bigger you might find some areas are smaller and you might find some areas are exactly the same um the other thing that's happening is technology as in like lar and all that topographic data is so much more accurate now than decades ago so those are causing the maps where the new study is being done to be much more accurate of where the flood plane is so there's areas where you'll even see instead of like Smooth curve at the end of the flood plane it's like little jagged lines because it's so accurate right down to that topographic level of where that study has shown that 1% flood to be um so it really varies kind of per area per Community what's going on um FEMA has done detailed studies in some areas of the Watershed others have been less detailed studies based off their funding and their in their process I can't speak to that as those maps are made you know they're created by FEMA we're not involved in that um but there's certainly areas where the maps have changed again some have gotten bigger so you might have some people or Properties or that were not in the flood plane before but now they are but then at the same time you might have other areas that were in the flood plane and now they're not and then you might have areas that are exactly the same and they haven't changed at all so I just varies okay that was my question for clarification for others that might be listening you know to see what's going thank you I will say that the current effective maps are obviously available online you can view them digitally and then also um the preliminary maps are also available online and they're also available digitally and so on FEMA has a map service change viewer um GIS viewer and you can actually toggle on and off the different layers to see where the flood plane has changed and and like you know from the effective to what would be effective in the next year which can sometimes help when you're looking at specif or somebody's interested in a specific property you know they can look right where they live or they're interested in any questions from the board no oops Robert have you look at Town of specific changes so our office have done a review of your flood plane District bylaw um so there's a few things again um this would be based off the state model bylaw that you need to adopt um to change I will note that state model bylaw has already been approved by the AG's office um so just if that helps at all for that knowledge um so a couple things as a quick highlight that I saw in that um the one of the big things is is communities are required to designate in their bylaw um a flood plan administrator and so we get a lot of questions about that like what does that mean is it a staff person do we have to hire do we have to have funding to you know fill this position no you don't have to you know find funding to fill a position um so the flood plane administrator is typically somebody in the community that's just aware of what's going on in the flood plane and they're really just the point of contact so like if EMA has a question who do they contact if our office has a question who's that first person they contact typically it's the building official it could be like a conservation agent it could be a Town Administrator um there's not really a lot of extra work associated with it except for it's that first person of contact who's somewhat involved in what's developments going on in the community so like designation of a flood plane administrator you'll see that as one of the things that um the community will need to adopt um there's a couple other requirements there's some variance criteria um that needs to be adopted and again there's sample language for that right in the model bylaw um as well there is um quite a few femo required definitions that would need to be adopted in um some things such as development and a you know substantial Improvement or a structure and those definitions as far as FEMA goes in this program are different like you might already have those definitions in your overall you know bylaws but it's important that these me these meet FEMA's requirements so like sometime sometimes communities put those just in their like smaller flood plane District section versus some add them to their overall bylaw and they definition section and they say you know for flood plan management purposes only that totally up to you know the community to decide how you want to implement that it's it's your bylaw you can Implement that how you want um but those definitions you know are required and will need to be added as well um and there's just a few other small things like notification requirements um there's a requirement that just says that if there's any change in flood plane areas that the the the probably the proponent or the applicant or whoever you know will notify female within sixth month of those changes so that's it's smaller things like that that just needs to be added in they're all requirements that the community's always had since they joined the program the only difference is now that FEMA is requiring communities to have these in their local bylaws um now moving forward so and that's all communities across Massachusetts are you know adopting this model bylaw as well so it's not just this Watershed it's not just you guys it's all communities across the state so okay and it's a mandate in order for anyone in our community to be able to purchase through the national uh yeah so those those few particular things from the model bylaw that you guys are missing or the community is missing those would need to be adopted into your flood plane District um obviously once that new map date is known that would need to be adopted um but you that all that said if the community were to not say adopt those um then you probably would it would be through FEMA but yours your good standing in the program might be at Jeopardy otherwise because um that's that's the requirement for when those maps go effective that was basically my question yeah okay I I try to it sounds scary some ways you say it like trying to find the best but I mean that's ultimately what happens is just remaining good standing you do need to adopt these minimum requirements and then also adopt the new map date and that's all communities in this Watershed you know it's not just your community it's all communities in the Watershed receiving new maps any other questions does uh the local Authority have any control in modifying any of these bylaws um yes you absolutely can um you can typically what would happen would be adding any like additional standards those standards they can be tricky because you obviously can't go anything more restrictive than State Building Code um and you obviously can't go less restrictive than anything required by FEMA as a minimum in the program um but for the mo but you do have some flexibility um where communities really take that flexibility is where they implement it locally so for example is it in their zoning bylaw is it in like a Conservation Commission type regulation you know whatever works best for your community that's where you have that Authority as well um some communities even take a higher step standard and they want to go and go oh we want no more new develop in the flood plane now that's very easy for a community that already has no development in the flood plane to say oh we don't want any more development um not saying you guys have to do that because not a requirement whatsoever but that is an option of a type of higher standard communities can and do adopt if they want to okay so this these are probably uh changes that we'll have to have a public hearing for and then this would go before our Springtown meeting okay coming up well thank you very much thank you yeah and I'll be in contact with you guys all and town staff as we move through this process I don't want the town to feel alone at all you know as FEMA um CS out these new maps we're here to assist you to make sure everything's good for when those maps go effective so I just had one question so how does the homeowner know if they've never been in the flood plane and now these new maps put them in the flood plane how how would they know that well when they bought their house they got a mortgage they didn't have to it wasn't in a flood plane and now now with a new map they may not be aware that their house is in a FL you better look at the new map well that and probably the blender will notify you great absolutely I'm sure they're gonna first actually yeah so the lender definitely the one if somebody has say that federally backed mortgage that federally backed loan lean whatever it may be um and they and they're in the flood plane that lender they're the one that's going to contact them they're the one responsible to tell them of that you know the community doesn't you you have no business with with their lean or mortgage or whatnot right um where the community may find more of an impact or find is that say somebody wasn't in the flood plane before and now they are and then they come in because they want to put an addition on their house they they come in for a building permit for whatever it may be or they come in to the Conservation Commission for some other thing and they find out that now they're subject to certain regulations because they're in the flood plane that they weren't before you know regulations that are in State Building Code um and things in Wetlands protection act so that's where they would probably um where the town would find that difference more is you know and and and some communities do a really big push of Outreach to their residents you know when the new maps go into effect they go oh you know go to go to FEMA's website and see are you in the flood plane or not um you know they can do that they can put stuff on your website you can put flyers up FEMA has tons of free like physical paper copy Flyers that they'll SHP to you for free that you could put with your town clerk put in your town put in a library a post office um you could put stuff on the website um Pima has a lot of that available I if that was something that you guys wanted some communities take advantage of that so well thank you for that information anything else thank you so much for joining and we'll be in touch okay great have a good evening guys thank you thank you hi Joe we'll get to you in a few in a few minutes are you here sign off by that's what the email was from [Music] be um well do you have something for br that references last meeting I think you were missing submitted I at the last meeting um they made changes in the U 27 scales plan I was supposed to have something for you signed off I was told that if we submit an as you were missing an as bill which we had electronically but they wanted a paper copy okay which I submitted I told I was on vacation I submitted today unfortunately oh um and it went but Beth and Jessica both knew this but neither were here okay I you know and two sm8 the storm water U or the inspection forms I was missing August and September but this was all emailed probably three weeks ago yes but they wanted they wanted a paper copy for the record okay so it's not like the information was just submitted this morning um if I recall we got copies attachments of this however there was no actual drawings in the attachment it was more about the um approval of the changes in the stor management um which reflected in the drawings right that's what so we saw the paperwork but not the actual drawings so you've had the actual drawings what the board requested was a as built that's correct right and that was submitted electronic right we have't personally I don't think we've seen the as like I said it was emailed like two or three weeks ago I don't I don't yeah I don't know what happened but I have noide can you check the portal and see if there's something there is a there is a a documents on that there um hold on that was she was sick so I'm I'm trying I just texted her I'm trying find out but I don't have anything physically in to give you or for us to vote on or for us to sign I I don't we don't have any documents here to sign tonight no I don't no like three it was supposed to be a boil point tonight because everything was that's everything satisfied as far as that's the way I took her email I have an email from her with emailing back and forth over the past month um I'll be honest I did ask Andrew today why are we under correspondence and Andrew uh I am abstaining from my because Brett and I are in the fire department together but he did reach out to me and ask for I was curious why we were just listed under correspondence and not we were listed on tonight's agenda no I I have an agenda absolutely was 4.1 right yeah under correspondence yeah so that means correspondence to doesn't mean that we're signing or voting on something that's not the email I have l i can be honest I don't know how many more times I'm going to come back this is but this is not personal no I I know but like i' I've done everything that has been asked of me and I feel I've done more than has been asked of me um yes he's all set with the required compliance work the board should vote to approve the certificate of completion for 27 sales scales Lane after they review the as built plans we have done a staff review and everything is completed is Jessica in the meeting no she's not oh please God I am going to with everything that's been done and I seen you in enough meetings um I have this I'm going to ask for a [Music] motion to approve the certificate of completion for 27 scales Lane the screen he's got a copy of the document as drawing can we get that on the screen so everybody can say they saw it you don't have an email in here do no is it in the folder I I looked it's on the folder it's the folder I saw it before September 9th or another date I have it on the September 9th folder which folder um hold on so go to correspondence 4.0 whoops I'm sorry I just click up I should have click oh there it is okay and then there's um scales Lane storm water certificate then you can go there and then there's a as belt which is the third document down so the certificate can I see is that for each of us to sign uh maybe well usually we would sign draft of the certificate is in the folder yeah that can be processed after the board votes it will have to be recorded so uh just finding out when you can pick it up I'm good like no rush to pick it up I just want let's get the vote Mr shank oh um so Beth Beth has reviewed this and all the changes have been made in Jessica okay okay so I'll entertain the motion to approve the certificate of completion for 27 scales Lane I move that we approve the certificate of completion for 27 scales Lane I'll second it any further discussion I would just like to say if there's something that has to signed you want to make it so that the chair can sign outside of the meeting or do does everyone have to sign it I don't know anything about I believe everyone's got to come in and sign the the actual well Beth will let us know oh the physical one yeah yeah I don't if that's the certificate the certificate of complete has ass sign sign the doc in here right here does have everybody signature on it says stormwater Authority representative whoever that is oh um that's somebody from the planning board is Storm the certificate we can figure out the signing later it's probably someone okay and he doesn't care when he has to pick it up okay everyone in favor say I hi hi any opposed oh upem there's one exstension and four eyes Okay congratulations so no more monthly paperwork that's I I don't know I'm not gonna answer that question but you just got approved okay perfect you're good we need put on the head all right whenever yeah yeah I'm sure Beth will email me or justess email me as soon as they do the minutes on this and she hears us it'll be it'll be in our minutes any okay so 4.1 is done thank you very much thank you um I'm not gonna keep you waiting Joe um gonna try to get under the correspondence thing what is the 4.2 do we have to do we have to approve that it's just that noticing us Gra I think what that means is you have to verify the charges or whatever need it say in the portal what does she have in the portal the invoice Graves engineering we don't sign certificate no I don't believe so let me just ask her there it is we approving the eny hold on there it is what is the peer review for it's to approve the work that right oh 108 yeah so they're Consultants to us and we have to they can't pay them like El until we approve it have we ever approved a invoice before huh have we ever approved an invoice before no just no we have conf done okay yeah because we have because we get the quotes and then they pays for it right okay so yeah but she just has it down there as correspondence that's not on the agenda does she want us to take action I'm asking her all right I don't know we have to correct okay and then the other weekend I mean she should know what we needed okay well I'm going to say that we addressed it and I've asked her and uh you said that there was only two or three things I've submitted it already it's informational only for the board housekeeping thank you very much 4.3 do you want to finish the housekeeping under correspondence you can you want do you want to read them Lance if you've got them in front of you all right all right we have uh from the town of Ashby notice of a public hearing on October the 15 at 7 o'clock um and it is a variance of to setb on Greenville Road legal notice from appil and it's a notice of a decision um the subject property was located at the intersection of beamus Road and Lorden Lane is owned by Lorden Properties LLC special permit major site plan review in a land disturbance permit to permit the construction of a ground mounted solar um photoa solar array energy storage system and then we have a notice from Shirley um and it's the decision from the zba for variance um okay the public hearing will be held or public hearing is held on August the 5th and it's for a Max maimum front yard set back on great uh 182 through 188 Great Road and so those are the correspondents from the budding towns okay thank you very much uh then we have uh that should be it okay thank you Joe would you like to join us very gu you're inviting Mr shank to join us I guess he has joined us I just had some paperwork had to do in s Chambers but until fur the notice I'll be trying to fill in on unfortunately I may not be able to make everybody's meeting but but I requested anything that you likeing forward if you reach out to me I'd be happy to the best our Chaz used to always bring us Refreshments when he came to the meetings I just said a lot I just in I just figured I let you know but anything I can do to help whatever please reach out okay thank you very much thank you all right uh Madam chair um I've come prepared tonight with plans uh compliance model outputs uh memos draft f but unfortunately not a pen can I borrow somebody's pen so I can take down all right um why don't we begin with the memo uh MBTA District 3 S that out August 21st um this is the one uh at the last meeting of the planning board the decision was made to locate the multi overlay District in District 3 the more Northerly location on fittsburgh road uh the issue with that is that the um the site was oversized uh it modeled out to uh 340 units and um the um directions you gave me were to come back with a smaller District right um I went back we worked on we looked internally and um I uh want to advise you I don't believe that uh shrinking the district is uh is the right way to go I'm advising uh instead of making the district physically smaller to reduce the number of units that can be built there in a different way by adopting a district maximum okay this is related to uh I don't feel that we could in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable cost provide an appropriate professional level of care shrinking down this district and deciding where to draw the line um without it being a big expensive un necessarily expensive project when there is another option available which I think is particularly well suited for this location instead of we were about twice as big as we needed to be instead of cutting the existing District in half we set a maximum that in this District even though uh it is twice as large has twice as many acres as would be necessary to meet your unit requirement we leave the whole thing uh instead of cutting it back but we adopt within the bylaw itself a statement that a maximum number of um I I put 180 here uh can be built within the district now this would mean this would give developers options they could still build at a density of 15 units per acre on theoretically on half the site and build out uh the site to its potential maximum and the other half would therefore not be they wouldn't be able to build any more units there or they could build at a slightly lower at a lot lower density and build on the entire site or they could do something in between they could build part of it out at 15 units an acre and build part of it out as the small lot single in two families you know um depending on what's best for the site conditions but at the end of the day it would the total number of uh units that could be built under the mfo zoning would be capped at 180 this is what uh on the back of the plan this is the modeling compliance model uh the NTA compliance model I have been I have emailed back and forth with the MBTA Office and they have confirmed that my understanding of this is correct if you look at uh in the blue duac that's development units per it models out to 7.9 development units per acre now it needs to be 15 the thing is like I said they can still build at a density of 15 and they can still build 180 units at a density of 15 units per acre they'd be able to do that though on half the site and if somebody did that what about the other half of the site which is still in the multi the overlay District zone well if the units are maxed out then you can't build any more units under the multif family overlay District but it would still be developable under the underlying zoning so in this particular case uh half the site would work out to about eight units eight eight single family homes is what you're you're allowed to build in that uh underlying District uh keep in mind that's not eight more units that's if I cut the district in half to the right size and would model out to exactly the 180 or 170 or whatever and then this other half that's next to it would be buildable eight with eight units per District so ad adopting this rout doesn't end up making the site more developable doesn't end up with more total units that can be developed on it I I can see whether that would be an effective way to do it my concern would be is the potential for appeal if let's say half of it was developed with 15 units per acre the district was still there people within that District could appeal to have the same in other words with lawsuits and stuff they could appeal they have the same right as that the district was allowed that would be my concern is how do we prevent that how do we prevent this board from coming in with a lot of people that would want to appeal that or get relief from that um in the future do do you know what I mean I think the way you physically did it is very wors well and it would be great to have a lower density of units spread out out of the area and I like that affect a lot but I'm I'm envisioning if I owned some of the property that was in this district and it already had been capped out um do I still have a right I mean it's a legal question question um would I still have the right to get the same kind of benefit you know and that that's the only caveat that I see with this and you know we see get appeals all the time people want relief from something or other and um it's fairly hard to do in terms of the legality um the M this isn't my idea of a district maximum the MBTA uh community's office in its guidance discusses district maximums and in the compliance model there is a place to enter when you're using a district maximum so I'm the the people uh administering this law um and I and like I said and I emailed with the head of the office there St find Nate there yes where this comes from right the lbta communities act office the ones who wrote The Guidance that this is what they meant and this is their intent and uh they certainly feel confident that it can ex that it can um survive legal scrutiny this is that this type of thing is a um is is allowable and that the the uh that those other property owners um would not actually um be in a legal position to do that in addition to the legal Point uh there's the realities of the site there's no half of this site that can be built out at 178 or 180 units if there was I would have come in with your District yeah I thought it had to do with the fact that there's so topography does not really allow for this there's so much there's so much slope and all yeah right that I don't think it's going to be an issue yeah that uh I yeah I think that and the other reason yes because it won't be possible to build out half the slope I don't think that I don't think it's going to be possible to run out of units on this site I don't think it'll get up to 180 I I mean I think it might be it might be physically possible but with some site work but you'd be getting to the point where the site work to allow you to do you know three tow houses there instead of a single family home is just not worth it and and um and the other reason I'm recommending this as I discussed in the memo is we had we've been talking for a long time about the desirability of providing a second ramp for the singles and twos this fits that perfectly of the idea of going down uh you know keeping the same number of units but the uh the developer having the option where site conditions recommend to go down to singles and twos you know and I can see the site actually being built out diversity of housing types singles and TW and mul all in a neighborhood together which is good practice it hasn't really been done yeah much anymore so uh I I I I feel confident about this I um can go back and find what kind of a legal um and and get a legal opinion if uh if that's the board's desire um just as a concept if we allow that we might have an opportunity there to put a tiny home type of scenario in there as well within that District which is something weed something that could be affordable to you know for a developer to then it would count the Excavating that's what I have a question because this is the draft document I believe the you're on bylaw yeah and I just was looking at Adam's comments about um when you talk about two family dwellings and his comment says must be three or more units to qualify that's right we discussed that at the last meeting miss that okay yeah and the principle and the principle there is I do allow multi he's just saying one single ones and is that's not multif family housing yeah um we do allow multif family housing in this does it come towards because he's saying it doesn't count towards the unit if we were only allowing singles and twos no it would not count towards their but in a district that allows singles twos and M allows it okay which gives more allows it okay and you can allow anything else you want to okay then I'm good I mean the fact that they're pushing overlay districts for this means they want there to be other things that are allowed there okay so okay that isn't important question well then sounds favorable to me more in the direction of what we're trying to achieve yes um if we okay that then then it's good then I suggest that we move on to the bylaw the bylaw was written with that in mind uh with with it in mind that there's going to be a dist R so uh is there anything else in my memo to go over uh I don't believe so I think I think cover all all right the second memo uh I think it useful to go through the memo it lays out the changes uh in order uh as opposed to having to go line by line bylaw so uh other than formatting here are the changes okay uh references to the outline commercial District have then removed because we're now only drawing over the our uh residents me right uh okay the 50 Foot setback from fitzburg Road has been reduced to 20 ft okay why because the 50 Foot setback was written with district one in mind where fitzburg road is a wide straight fairly high speed there's very little development around there it's a fairly high speed intensive location there's nothing else that's built uh that's built out there uh there's very little that's built up there and it is that far away as opposed to this location where fitb road is more winding and there's already development there which is uh uh there are already homes which are built closer than that 50 ft so what I'm proposing is the uh the bylaw has a 50 foot setback from the street and a 50 foot front yard setback for multif family buildings so and if they did multif Family by the street that would have to be 50 foot back but if they they put singles or twos then that those could be built at approximately the same distance that the existing buildings are already built up set back from the stre yeah but the existing buildings I think are 25 ft or 20 okay okay um what is the pleasure of the board changing this from changing this from 20 to 25 ft I can certainly be amendable to if that's the right number I don't think the 50 is necessary and uh I don't think it's all that desirable either because it would that that part by the street where it's flat before it starts going out might be some little if it's I feel content with 50 ft for a multistory building right yeah so do I and if that stays then that's good the by the 20 foot said bar I think it's in a policy in town it's 25 ft and so that the idea is um automobiles aren't going to be over the property line and Automobiles tends to run 18 feet so that's pretty much why the setback 20s too yeah I I I would say 20 25 not 20 okay do you think 25 is better I do y That's the setback from Pittsburgh Road okay right it's too close so you want at 25 I mean my truck long so be sticking out the road if there was a parking lot right there that's right you know and then who knows they may widen the road and they may put Road he just cars homes so close know one time there was a study that brought 195 right right be 10 if the car was in the driveway there okay I'm picture in it yeah car was in the driveway there there's maybe 10 feet after yeah I'd like to go back for you know the three um the the three look how close they they are very close what's the measurement there well it's the building there was no requirement on the parking all right but the parkings like horrible I mean I'd hate to be back out that's what I'm saying they had 25 ft from the parking from the building they put the building 25 ft from the property line and that only left that area needs to go back houses you understand because they were just building stuff right next to the street so they wouldn't have to build all the material you know the materials and the utilities and everything else but it's really hazardous it's not not for that was good for the horse and buggy but you know that Fitchburg a horrible F so this house right here in the bottom leftand corner I think I think a guy named George Jes it this isn't very scientific but I Google mapped it and Google measured it and that is 33 ft that one's 33 33 this one one right bottom left the bigger one on the left this one I know the house there's more is it does it tell you that that's how many feet it is uh according to yeah Google measure Google measure says it's 33 feet it goes up it goes up a hill maybe I'm in the wrong house George's house goes up a hill yeah this a different Ridge L that is on a hill this can't be yeah he's like a he's closer to 80 or 100 feet off the road he's got to be 100 oh you know what I think I'm on this house which is like further like second this one here I think I'm on that one oh okay so you're not let's we'll scratch that don't mind my uh my approximate measuring but if I go by those senior housings there I go back at least 30 feet then at least because they're not I don't think they are I know but for for this I don't want to be that close to the road I don't think what's your existing front yard setback in the dr3 I think it's 25 yeah but I'm talking about these houses where the driveways are like so if you're living there you're almost sometimes to close to the road I've been inside the house there and you can hear the traffic and somebody spending $500,000 I it's really sad it's really sad the thing that people aren't aware of is when they think of setbacks they think of the physical Street oh yeah they think of the Ed right but that Ed of payment can be right on the property line or it could be's the other 15 ft away all right depending like how much the state own okay I know on my personal property which is right on the same road um my property line is like only eight feet from the roadway the back yeah yeah only something 50 ft also allows a developer to put some Landscaping as a strip separate the road from the home 20 to apply for a driveway or a parking permit too right so yeah because you know that pitsburgh road is like a Speedway Som days so well um I wouldn't have a lot of driveway if you want you could do the minimum the minimum is 25 feet but if somebody wants to go back 50 or 100 or whatever they can do whatever they want right right well it's only a minimum it's not it's not a mandatory okay it wouldn't be smart for someone to do 25 ft you can set it at 25t it is a minimum right now and so so we can leave it as a minimum okay but that doesn't mean that's what we recommend right yeah no but you have to up to the developer a developer has to know what he's got to work with so you when you say a minimum so the developer makes up his mind it's true well it just tells him how much land area has buildable and for parking and everything else but the the key here the the key here is you establish a minimum okay and then you still have the site plan still has to be reviewed so you can bring up concerns about Hazard and stuff like that um so but I certainly I really certainly feel it's got to be at least 25 ft okay and we already have a lot of houses close to old fitzburg road now so um and then 50 foot the 50 foot for a multistory building is appropriate and then you can have a good buffer screen you know so that it's uh the visual impact won't be as dramatic and you need more parking around and we do have a Scenic rad bylaw too don't get me going on a Scenic Road okay that doesn't go in very far doesn't no so the way it's written is so the way I have it written is there is in the dimensional table for multif family buildings there is a 50 foot setback front yard setback and there is a 50 foot uh setback from the street okay that and then and then what's the difference you said front yard we got Street yeah front minimum set back from Street and minimum front yard setback some things sometimes there are Corner Lots being comprehensive okay uh okay we have to cover yeah uh uh oh Al another thing is there uh I only have a 20 foot rear yard setback for these multif family buildings but if the rear is along a street now it's 50 because of the that 50 foot set back from the street so that's why that comes into that's that's that's why that's why you do that yeah um so so you end up with less land if it's a corner lot or if you got two on both sides so so the so the for the uh multif family they've got a 50 foot setback from all from any Street written into their dimensional standards that'll apply to Interior streets too and stuff then um over on uh the next page after the dimensional table there's statement all buildings shall be set back a minimum of 20 ft from fitzburg road so I'll just change the number in that one change that number to 25 to 25 okay okay minim now I have a question with the rear set back you said was 20 feet for yeah 20 feet per uh mons we have to think about a private lot versus a condo so if it's a condo then the association owns the land meaning they can put the units as close together as they may want so other words you wouldn't have that in other words typically if this is a property and this is another property and they were both on opposite rows you'd have 40 feet between buildings they 20 foot set back plus their 20 foot set back right okay so property one property two okay but if it's all one property the buildings can be closer together oh yeah right well there still has well oh so you're talking about separations between buildings when there's multiple buildings on a lot right okay yeah let me look what I've got here um we need to get fire trucks and everything in I mean he makes a good point um so okay so I don't have a maximum distance between buildings uh there is a seven number seven interior roads and utilities will provide uh service functionally equivalent to that assured individual Lots under the planning board subdivision rules and regulations okay so in terms of your um providing fire access and everything well I just you know a lot of site plans now are getting very creative and um so there's a certain philosophy about having building sh Alleyways in the back yeah and so people can get their cars in the back of their buildings um and for service vehicles um so I wouldn't want to handicap a developer of using those kinds of things that we can make the housing better um so and then we have to worry about fire trucks and stuff like that but that all always goes through our approval on S plan anyway so that's not really a concern um so um uh but I didn't want this board to understand type of property ownership can make a difference here and what we're talking about um and so I would not feel comfortable with two high story buildings that were only 20 feet apart so it may be a separate thing that we have to put in the bylaw for fire if nothing else well well people don't know that but any building within 20 feet from one another has to have a fire rated roof on it um so 20 feet is not particularly a good situation um so I don't know what would be the minimum well I would say 30 you know but you've got things like Shadow lines and everything that affect those units you know we got one building here and one building here and the sun puts the shadow on the other building and um I'm not trying to make it unrealistic but 20 feet is not sufficient in my mind for the multif family on is adequate for you know one story or two story buildings when we start going three or four stories and I think we have to have kind of a chart for that to explain it to developers it probably be 30 to 40 ft our maximum here is three stories and 35 fet even for the muled families okay 35 maximum three stories and 35 ft height okay okay uh we're not talking about to buildings as is three stories it's not even three and a half stories it's three stories does this conern this concern that you raised does that is that still in play if we're talking three stor stories um I don't think the shadow line would have that much of an effect your L I do think that the the fire rating think even though that's aw people replace you don't want building department the height and a half yeah is that 20 or is it 20,000 put another di reement like that could um affect the compliance model and lower your number of units you we're oversized anyway we're over not be an issue because right proper plot that problem should be a problem here no um I could we have to add that language okay where two multif family buildings AB or adjacent to one another they have to be 30 ft apart if they're three stories tall I think we just figured out they have to be greater than that for 50 feet 50 feet away uh two three story buildings yeah do keep yeah it's three story three story buildings what I was sharing with Lori being on the fire department what I think our rule of thumb is and maybe it needs to be checked but the building height plus a half of the building height because you're thinking about when the building potentially if it's compromised and it collapses it doesn't just collapse at 30 ft if it's 30t tall it spreads out it spreads out and the rule of thumb is Building height plus a half so if it's 30 feet high and then you add 15 feet at top of it so be 45 feet rather than specifying a number why don't we put some language in there it's just I mean doesn't any developer take that in consideration the safety not unless you're force them too yeah well there's safety issues in the site plan right so that would come up and if they have not addressed if they're doing multi buildings that are multi level they need to address that yeah I can tell you that in communities that have this type of development built on a regular basis and and planned for it and have existing zoning districts that allow for these types of multif family campuses they don't generally have that rule that dimension distances between public water buildings there's no public water there well unless they draw it from pitchburg Road there is I think there is there expensive yeah there's a water that's nothing to do with the owner um okay yeah so they're uh because and the reason for that is because these are going through special permittance or site plan plan review procedures where that can get caught um if this was if we were talking about a subdivision I'd say that a rule like that would be one that you put in your subdivision regs and not in your zoning if you understand what I mean because and then you apply it and take it into account on with the at the board's discretion on a case-by Case basis as opposed to you know zoning regulations are much more are much more cookie cutter and tend not to I don't I I would I would prefer to preserve the board's uh discretion rather than a a a a hard and fast number which can kind of handcuff both you and the right well uh we can do this two ways we can try to incorporate just in this District or we can have a general bylaw across the town regarding multi-story buildings and the separation that it's in a regular zoning bylaw would that be as effective without specific to the MBTA District might not even be a zoning it it might not even be a z a zoning bylaw if it's something that would apply to like every building in town it might be um some other kind of protective ordinance there wasn't that I can think of I mean there's I mean there's this there's the the the building code no it becomes it comes no the building code State okay so that would be have to be under the zoning in zoning right now we have requirements and set back front yard percentage of walk coverage and all that so that's where I think there should be a separate bylaw for adjacent multif family structures uh requiring a distance between them um now that can be put in specifically to just this one District but if we're saying it's a safety issue it probably should be wholesome for the entire Community um I'm just thinking you know what our three acres and two acres zoning I've never had it ever come up as an issue right of multi family houses us but we do have some now and that gives you an idea um of how far apart they are okay so the brick Apartments down there uh they're more than 40 they're more than 50 ft yeah they're like 60 so is Turnpike more than 50 ft apart yeah we don't have anything that I'd say they're like 100t apart or so yeah they I said more than so I think that this is more District specific to the overlay and what you're allowed to build there I don't think you're going to find anything else in town like it where they have built in the last 50 years they haven't built a lot at all recently you know um and the prototypes that have been built here before are not that popular now you know the types of structures they're doing um so um I uh well we haven't had apart say apartment buildings which are now condos we haven't had that for 50 years they haven't built them since 6970 and 71 in in both areas that we have other than that there've just been townhouse condos townhouse style but I don't know how they would uh when when they do the multifamilies I don't know if they're going to do townhouse things or if they're gonna do I don't think you can base it on on you have to base it upon height of the building do you know what I mean not NE necessarily what building type it is well I they're not going to be any taller than pin Ridge or or correct right and so that's what we're talking about the space between two of them they're all 100 feet closer to 100 feet I know but that doesn't mean that somebody else will do that you know what I mean just because somebody else put them on F feet away they probably did it because of the parking or the configuration of the L or the most efficient way to build them the same thing will happen in the in this District somebody's going to have to come up with a plan and it's still G to have to meet the Safety Code I'm just bringing it up guys I think it will come up again at anytime there's a site plan that comes up and and in addition there's the state fire code which if you know if this type of building is this close it needs this rating and they've got pages and pages of that which they'll all be subjected to automatically subject to to get their building permits so I think between the two of those that we don't have to do anything I think preserving your discretion over that is what what I need to make sure I'm do well there's nothing specific in our bylaws now right that says that only question was on the set so let's pretend I'm a developer I want to build a three story right here against this lot is there a setback requirement from him um all the front side rear yard setbacks in the dimensional table would that would be the back um well it would depend on if you're let me see let's if somebody put in a subdivision Road like this and there are lots off of it yes that would be the back um but if it's a multifam project say that there's a big multif family campus back there multiple buildings on it uh it would depend on lot lines yeah I think yeah I think those most of the count is real right uh yes this is so the um setbacks that are in this bylaw from uh the abutters are the same as the internal setbacks that's cor so like if somebody's building a no it's not specific internal right right it's not specific not specifically internal so if somebody's uh building the small out single in two families they're uh they need they've got a 20ft rear yard setback and a 10-ft side yard setback and that would that would apply to their neighbors within this little development but it would also apply the last guy who ABS you know the the ab Rock his set back he his setback would be 10 foot side yard setback 20 foot near but isn't I Side Y side back already 15 feet Yes yes this is going this is oh uh yeah 15 yeah and it's I've got the 15 side yard here for the um multifamilies but it's re but uh remember we have reduced uh front and side yard setbacks for the singles and twos in order to make that feasible uh for developers to do that so if there's a 15 15 you you're reducing it to 10 which means a total of 20 side uh yes there yeah it would be two yeah for single and two family homes you'd need 10 and 10 for uh multifamilies you'd need 15 and 15 I mean when site plans are riew about I mean yeah exactly for our Envision tiny home scenario 10 foot side yard for one or one and a half story building would not be an issue I don't think between well because then it's 20 20t then it's actually 20 collectively it' be 20 feet yeah right that's not bad on a small no I think our current Zone law by law is 15 feet yeah for single for a single family home um so the only question comes is the distinction between freestanding single unit versus higher rise three story units and the question is the distance apart and the distance they should be from a setback right so there's still GNA be a side yard setback and there's still going to be a rare yard setback which you would assume would be greater for three building than it would for what you'd have for even a tiny home or a mini you have to have more parking too well um that isn't the case that isn't the case in your current zoning though uh you've got the the three St the threeory 35 is uh I think I took that from your uh from your existing zoning uh that's this Dimension is the same for singles and twos and for multifamilies we have the same height limit so when we're talking about multifam about the multifamilies they're not higher than the singles or tubs in this zoning District so as we're talking about abing uh uh abing the you know the neighbors uh you know out outside of the district uh keep in mind that the multis aren't going to be any taller we're not Zoning for the multis to be any taller than the singles and the twos not because they're yeah probably all right having a buff you there is I was just working on it um um some commercial U mixed do zoning in lemonster and they got a special buffer where at a about a residential district you you have a wider buffer than the other setbacks um once again where we have the uh where we're going with this oversized but we could afford to impose a buffer all the way around if you wanted to and we'd still make the little happy um okay what are we at what are we thinking for that buffer uh the tallest buildings are 35 feet uh want to call the buffer 35 feet want to call the buffer 40 ft are we if the tallest building is 30 ft which a single family home can do right now um so what's our current setback uh I think your C set back is 15 feet from property line and the rear set back is 20 yeah 20 I think so I think I took these right from there one question first question do you want to have this uh apply to singles and twos have to be up need this much of a buffer or is it just multif family where the multif family building uh uh is next to I think reducing the setback if we're trying to do a tiny home opportunity makes sense for single family units okay when we got multif family or three level units then I think we want to increase that so in other words we have a standard now which is for a regular Center home and everybody's accustomed to it so if this board or if this community decides that they want to encourage uh a tiny home kind of situation then the size of the lot will be reduced and the percentage of lot would all be reduced and the parking requirement would be reduced for that function okay so now we have so that would in my mind be an opportunity here to incorporate that kind of housing all right the the the mini home housing or um so reducing the side and setback the rear and setb on those would be favorable not the front setback but the rear and side and 10 feet and 20 feet make sense on that um then when we have multi-level buildings which we assume are going to be triplexes you know three units a piece but we don't know um those buildings that are you know two or more levels High um would have a greater setback than our regular single family home would have um so our regular single family home right now is 15 on the side yard and rear yard I think it's 20 or 25 I think it's 20 so you might want to increase those for a three story structure and not to be jumping around what I heard Joe last say was talking about putting a buffer yes a buffer yeah the language would be something like uh all multif family buildings uh no multif family building shall be built closer than 35 feet to The District boundary oh okay I just plop that here this L okay you like that 3.5 this one um those are multif family structures you right yes yes yeah this is a choice for you to make what I said was U multifamilies and and that rule wouldn't apply to singles and twos singles and twos would just have their their setbacks from this chart that they have follow I would recommend doing that um make the singles and twos a little bit more yeah yeah okay so uh all multif family buildings and what else do we need to address tonight because we've got a few other things on the agenda here and this is was not supposed to be a long meeting as much as as you want I'd like to get through um the rest of the changes I made to these make sure you're okay and then that would pretty much be it unless any of you saw something in the bylaw that you wanted to bring up okay so why don't we just go through what you wanted to get done tonight all right so let's see here um okay we took care number two of the 50% set back number three a district maximum of 180 units has been added uh where did I put that has uh D2 housing Allowed by right under d one in addition to all other uses Allowed by right in underlying zoning districts Apartments multi family buildings two family dwellings and single family dwellings are allowed as of right in the MF two a maximum of 180 residential units may be constructed in the MF under the provisions of this section 145-40 property owners in the MF OD retain the right to develop their property in accordance with the underlying Zone cor okay we can't even if you run out of the units in the district we can't leave anybody with no development dep all right uh the oh the site plan approvement section has been moved out of the MF OD chapter and into its own section um if you remember we the moving Parts last time uh let's see the purpose has been Rewritten to make it clear that the production of multif family housing itself rather than any additional conditions placed on the housing is being done to achieve the defined purposes remember this uh discussion last time your attorney had uh some some questions they make it sound like uh mentioning achieving all of these environmental goals and stuff like oh if we put regulations thing that I discuss yeah so can we get that in here or does it have to be here or could it be in the general byog uh I it's it's it's it's good to have a purpose statement uh and this one here if you just want to look at a purpose of the MFD is to allow multif family housing as of right in accordance with Section 3A this soing allows for a allows for as of right multif family housing to encourage the production of a VAR of a variety of housing types in order to provide equal access for new people for to new housing for people with variety of needs and income levels benefit from energy uh efficiency advantages of mult from the Energy Efficiency advantages of multif family housing uh support and encourage further public investment in public transit and Pedestrian by friendly infrastructure does that last part get to the wellness issues you were talk no okay what would you like what are we talking about well Wellness in terms of it's it's got to do with mental Wellness primarily and health so um and when we talk about those things when you have I would like to see um any dwelling unit have outdoor access okay oh okay this is just the purpose statement though U the purp the purpose statement to why you're adopting an MF OD okay and to promote Wellness um Okay add okay I can do that I can add a wellness statement you think uh because you know I would agree diversifying your housing stock Health promote Wellness yeah excellent and then there are the kinds of things that support that keeping it General yeah all right and the last one I've taken out the affordability section and uh references to it in other parts of the document such as in the statements about fa right so there's no affordability no affordability element in this anym uh okay so those are the changes I made to the bylaw um if you don't have anything else in the bylaw then that finishes that and that brings me to my one last point I got one question yes on page seven it says the minimum setback distance for freestanding accessory building shall be 5 feet from all lot lines yeah yeah accessory buildings that also include for example if a developer has single unit and that owner wanted to put in an Adu is that considered an accessory no building or is that yes an access a separate Adu is considered an accessory building it's all allowed Now by right right but I think they were talking about is five feet more or less those are like for sheds and sheds yes sheds that's build with the five foot buffer is a shed it's not a unit it's not a unit it's not an apartment it's it's not garage no well garages and access and now under the new law accessory dwelling units in a separate building are accessory structures they are accessory structures the main structure on the lot and this law bylaw would apply to that set that would apply to them wait a minute maybe in that District but that is not what a five foot buffer is no for a it's only for a shed in Townson yeah yes yeah right uh remember this is being drawn uh this bylaw is uh envisioning a different type of neighborhood than the large lot single family neighborhoods exist in towns so that's just for this District yeah this just yeah that that's their role in this district and uh you are looking at7 number two P seven number two yeah minimum yes yeah this is within this bylaw the minimum setback distance for free standing accessory buildings shall be 5T from all one yeah another another structure just in how this is unless it's one of the singles yeah I um I can't imagine there being oh oh you can only have an accessory drilling unit on a lot with a single family home you can't have an Adu with a two family you can't have it on the multi so yes is somebody on this is somebody in a single family home on one of in one of on a small lot in this District uh would be off would be allowed to have an accessory dwelling unit like any every other single family home owner uh this rule about it uh needing to be no closer than 5 feet to the sideline would still apply and boy that would actually if somebody did a real small lot like we're allowing a single family home that would make it awfully hard to be to even be able to put an accessory dwelling unit on them but that's up to them yeah yeah and then it's a plan review well accessory dwelling units don't have to physically be a horizontal addition they could be a ver or one yeah so we want to be sure that it's very understood and clear what we're defining these are accessor dwelling units okay versus accessory structures an accessory dwelling exists in an access accessory structure accessory structure would be like uh a tool shed or a trash shed or or an accessory or freand the accessory dwelling unitell unit was legally considered the if a separate structure containing an accessory dwelling unit is considered an accessory structure it's not the main structure the lot the single family home is the principal structure on the lot if there's an Adu that second in a separate building that separate building is an accessory structure okay I'm I'm going to there's experiences of opinions here I'm going to ask the Town Council give us his opinion okay asking him whether this well yeah this rule would apply there's a conflict of definition here I think to an accessory apartment that 5 foot buffer M could be in an accessory apartment or dwelling is what you're saying yes I don't believe that's true no not in I don't see how that's going to happen five foot buffer for us in town is a shed it's not a dwelling so I'm I'm going to ask that town counselor clarify that for us if he tells me yes it is an accessory dwelling then I have to believe him well that's going to be a big problem because I don't see it being approved in a site plan review I I just went through this with the building department I wanted to put a shed on my b yeah I know okay and poor Janet says well why does it have to connect because if you don't connect to your house to my barn then you don't need it perect oh yeah so I wanted to attach it to my b so I had to go through the whole permitting process right so in our it's understood in our town that you know you buy a plastic shed or a playhouse or any of these nonoccupied spaces you know in uninhabited spaces is an accessory building all right and they surface in many forms these you know people build PR goas and and you know things along I'm going to ask the question we'll get the answer okay I don't understand the implication what what would the answer to that question have to do with this bylaw because would I need to change something depending on what that answer was the five foot buffer can't be there it can't be an accessory structure has to be access an occupied I think you'd have to change a defin change the want that clarified in that in the bylaw so understand okay what if if that came out then there would then be no uh setback for accessory uh structures oh no we have a setback but it's not GNA be 5 feet oh okay I'm not saying we're going to disallow them not at all but it's not going to be 5 okay so what okay so what you want to see okay so what has to be specific here is accessory dwelling unit not accessory structure okay or you could put in the words occupied or unoccupied or something to that space or something you want to just add unoccupied I yeah I think that I wouldn't want that to get you in trouble with the new Adu uh needing to allow adus by right I yeah you just need to have a setback I think that the way you're going to want to do that is in the Adu the new Adu bylaw that that I'm going to be drawing up for you as uh as in the next project we can limit we can put a setback uh a 10- foot setback or whatever the town likes in that bylaw okay well how do we fix this accessory structure language because it doesn't that confuses every why don't you just put it as 10 feet instead of five yeah yeah we could do that the the problem with that is now you're imposing that on on sheds um you know um detached garages desirable things on these have the five feet for an unoccupied structure unoccupied structure so and you can go 10 or 15t buffer for the um Adu so somebody wants to build a freestanding garage does Adu require state that you can't have any more than a five- foot buffer oh I'm asking Joe uh not at this time we are waiting for we are waiting for the state to come up with uh guidance and regulations on this Adu law the same way they did on the MBTA law and we think they're going to tell us what they consider to be reasonable versus unreasonable regulations okay yeah that's in terms in terms of this issue that you that you're bringing up uh I think that we your your due on to pass your NBTA bylaw the end of 2025 I think that you will'll get the Adu in place before that so we can get so we can take care of this in the Adu bylaw okay okay I am G to make myself a note about this uh to make sure to keep in mind that these two have an Nexus okay was there anything else because now we're way past where that's all I got oh yes last thing I this last thing I wanted to bring up uh you still have a development rate limitation on the books what a development rate limitation of what it uh is a certain uh a certain number of building permits that you're able to it was adopted in 2008 with a sunset of four years so that's why you haven't heard of it it's never come up because it no I've heard of it we had a moratorium I'm building but it's uh uh it's a it's not doing anything uh uh because it's not in effect uh but be it's sitting there on your books as a potential Time Bomb um you might want to consider uh including that repeal in one of these three Zone amendments that we're do it okay definely get rid of it yeah yeah so um thought it was dead yeah yeah it's dead and you don't want it to come back to life there was one town that went and they switched just changed the dates it and that's like too easy yeah that's oh and they got in trouble for it and just just to do that it would be good to take care of that all right so that's what I had tonight Jo all right so I feel to do you're okay we uh meeting of mins on the district meeting of the mins on the um bylaw with just a couple of minor amendments to it um I can get that get that together uh and we can talk about a process uh there is we can submit to the um uh to the nvta office for pre-approval you have plenty of time to do that um they're going to be hustling to uh get the the uh communter rail communities reviewed first because they're deadlines sooner so I don't know something to think about for the future not under the we had it under control that's as soon as you have your tweets done would you send them to Beth please yes okay all right thank you very much appreciate it great okay um in the work session what I really want to get to a three point1 the CBA mandatory referral application for a special perent at free gr Road for an Adu I don't I I I reviewed it it just uh you know accessory apartment uh going it should be by right now right we're we're GNA approve it but I mean they really have a right to it yeah they will after January 1 yeah yeah so how do you guys feel about it I just I don't know if it I don't think it needs any comments I would just reply no comment I wouldn't even make him go through the process I know I I would think as as a board and planning and what we've seen and what's been going on have them show up and we'll just approve it they're gonna be entitled to it anyway this is going before zoning they have a hearing zba zoning board this is for a referral from the planning board to the zoning board um on their hearing all right so we don't have any opposition correct right no comment I say no comment no comment you don't want to say you support it we could say we wish well yeah I say we support it put it if I was in the Assessor's hat I would say we absolutely prove it meets more income to the town there you go and since we're in a planning thing and we have a lack of housing I would approve them doing it so there's another housing unit right I'm happy to defer to the chair's prerogative yeah yep me too me too okay I will speak to be about writing a comment on that but as long as you're okay with that realm of thinking y I don't want to be against it um 3.2 was there anything in there on the storm water management application changes I mean I reviewed them and I just had those couple comments that I gave to Beth already oh fine okay and then the master plan review go specifically Rel to the F plan um Jessica is helping with the master plan as far as implementation so um how about we just take that up with her the next time [Music] um and Veronica are you still with us maybe she just left us hanging this I am still with you okay did you have we on 3.4 discuss ways to increase incentives to develop affordable housing and future opportunity ities to meet with towns and housing authority and towns and affordable housing trust um did you have a comment for us actually I'm here to listen to your comments oh I want to hear your thoughts um Aaron will be uh we talked about it in the affordable housing trust meeting we aren't settled on anything yet and we will eventually be requesting a meeting with you um do an interview so I I wanted to hear what your thoughts were that's why I've been waiting through that whole long long I'm sorry I am so sorry that's okay we were not taking it up tonight what we're not we're not getting any further with it tonight it's on your agenda though isn't it I know it's on the agenda but I don't I don't I mean I think we're agreeable to meeting with you and the Housing Authority um but at this point in time going through the um having the Adu go by right as of January 1 from the state um and not mandating affordable housing for them you know we're okay that I am fine I am fine with the adus being I personally am fine with the adus being you know not coupled with affordable housing that's fine uh what I want to know is what the planning board is going to do to help um since it's been removed from the MBTA communities and that's a huge amount of housing we are supposed we have a target of 10% affordable housing in the state but with our bylaws um all the zoning bylaws because we only have a voluntary affordability clause in 145-40 there is absolutely no way that the town will and that Clause has never been invoked ever so at at this point there is no way at all for Townsen to meet the 10% affordability none whatsoever if we have you know 340 houses or whatever 180 houses built in MBTA community ities and 10% of them are not affordable where are we getting those other 18 or 34 houses in town when we don't even require in open space developments or any other development that homes be affordable it has to be 40b that's the only way um that we get affordable housing in town so I'm curious as to what the planning board that I'm here to I was here to listen to your discussion because I'm curious as to what you guys think is going to happen in town affordability wise if we never require affordability it's not just going to drop from the heavens I haven't seen it drop in 40 years um you know so what are your thoughts on this that's what I was here to listen to well I can tell you we've addressed this in conversation and what we're finding out is the definition of affordability is based on a countywide value okay I'm gonna back you up I'm gonna stop you right there and say yes we're in the Boston uh Cambridge Quincy whatever area but go to Groton or peppol or dunable or tingbo or Westford they are in the L region it's all based on and it is less expensive so where we are based on a medium income for a family of four of 130,000 in Groton affordability is based family of four 97,000 um and what we've kind and I've been doing a lot of research on this and I'm meeting tomorrow with others um on this to see how we get our Metropolitan statistical um area changed because and Joe from mrpc mentioned this last time and I've spent a good amount of time over the past couple weeks trying to figure out okay how does this work why are we where we are but Groton and dunable and I have the whole median income chart even Westford Westford is in the L region with a 97,000 we are 30 you don't want to if you're you want to go to Groton Westford Dunstable Peril you don't want to come to Townsen and we believe it's based on the railroad lines so that has to be changed yes in the meantime we're where we are and from what I can tell the town as a whole is doing nothing to increase affordability in the town of Townsen in other words we talk a lot about it you see it but we want it affordable for our citizens that's why and this this value thing that comes from middle sex county is not helping the people in our town get affable okay Robert so we don't have any affordable housing in this town anymore even the 55 and over is listed at 480 now unless they've dropped it a that's not affordable for those people like us with white hair who want a downsize from our big houses that is not an affordable price yet we are putting eight units on a 3 acre lot and none of them are affordable the you only get one on a 3 acre lot in an RA or RB you only get one but if you're 55 and over you can get eight and I guess we thought going by the Mongolian horde method of zoning that if we put more units on a single lot that the prices would be lower and in fact they're not that hasn't worked right um and so we have to think about and and I accept that you guys pulled that out of the bylaw for MBTA communities cool but how are we getting affordability in townend that is the question even the houses that are on the market now don't fit the 80% Ami for a family of four even with the Boston Quincy that would have to be 335,000 and I challenge you to find a three-bedroom house or even a two-bedroom house in Townsen with a functioning septic that costs 335 5 years ago that was true it's not true anymore and it's not going to get better so my opinion is we have to think about how we're doing it even for our residents that's my rant but I wanted to hear what you guys had to say and that's why I'm here well Veronica everything you say is true but nothing has changed because as time goes on every people's income has not increased the amount of the cost of living just to I agree but but what has changed Lori is the cost of houses in town you could buy a house in Timberly park for three or four years ago for 250k maybe 300 Max but you can't do that anymore they're selling for 450 or five and that's what's changed and that's why we need some plan for affordability that is 40b development well how are you going to decrease the house of the cost of housing what what do you think you're going to decrease it you're G to find a way when something comes in to that's building many units in a lot that typically would only allow for one one you know building unit and you know on a 2 acre or a 3 acre lot if you are allowing eight units there or 10 units why can't one be affordable and we do allow for that to happen with 145 d48 in the zoning bylaws but we have to make a little bit of wording changes to it because that's only for osds and multifamilies we have to add um also for uh the 55 and overh housing and we have to make it not voluntary but mandatory and we have to change the 30% to 10% because the 30% is a little bit one one question Ronnie is where are our surrounding towns in terms of peepol in terms of Groton Ashby Lunenburg surely in terms of their 10% where are they I don't know there exact percentages but I know that gron right now is putting in a huge development where um Deluxe used to be the home office there of nebs and um a lot of that will be affordable and that will increase their affordable affordability greatly they have been working they have been working to get there so I will get a list for the next meeting okay because I know that some of the town are still at zero% or one or two we are ahead of some communities and there well dun Dunstable has um an they have two developments going in currently that are um one is permitted and one is in the permitting process right there in the center of Dunstable so have incentive for some Builder to come in and want to build what are the places there what are the prices going to be on those affordable units the affordable units Dunstable is in the LOL region so it will be less than affordable unit in townsand would be well just that' be interesting you know if some communities are at over 10% then we can look at their you know models I'm G to get that list for us to study first and that will be what they're you know what the other communities are doing what what percentage they're at and how did they get there okay because I I that would be good and then you guys can look at it and talk about it and see what the plan is for townend because doing nothing gets us nowhere yes the affordable housing trust is we're not putting we are actively working with MHP to put something up on our property in West Townsen however we are not building projects in other words it's not going to be 100% affordable it's it's not going to be a I mean I wouldn't want a project where everything is Affordable and it's you know where where the poor people go I'm not looking for that I I'm looking for a a sane way to get affordability in townand thank you you're welcome thank you thank you for your efforts and I I will get that list and we will have a discussion at our next meeting I won't be at your next meeting or the other one after that but um Aaron will be contacting you I can't be at the next two meetings so Aaron steepfield our housing administrator and grant writer for the town she's in land juice oh okay yeah so we've been having discussions at the Housing Trust meeting and those will continue so okay thank you bye bye bye bye okay tired so uh the rest of the agenda just has the educational opportunities um so I don't think I have to list those motion to adjourn I second it okay we are um all those in favor of adjourning at 8:40 8:39 PM hi hi hi thank you all very much