##VIDEO ID:c2lKEWWriko## e e e e e e e e e e okay welcome to the city of treasur Island local planning agency uh board meeting for December 19th 2024 if you wish to speak on a topic which is on today's agenda a speaker's card is available on the table over by the entrance and must be completed and given to the chairperson please do not address the board from your seat but rather from the podium where your comments can be heard by all and recorded as required by Florida statute on scheduled topics may be presented under the public comments section of the agenda okay if everybody would uh silence their cell phones and we'll all stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America naice okay to you if we could have a roll call Michael herbees here Marvin shaelin here Gary penano here Christopher Downing here Ross Sanchez here Grant Smith here Richard Harris I am here uh no minutes that I've seen to uh be approved and we'll get right into the first item because that's just a continuation of what we uh discussed uh last month it's my understanding uh well we'll just get into it 6A request to approve resolution resolution 20249 recommending adoption of ordinance 2024 d27 uh which is a number of items that we discussed in regard to Hurricane Relief and raisin houses go ahead Katherine good afternoon LPA members uh this is identical ordinance that you saw last month with the exception that it's a different ordinance number so um ordinance 202 24-27 basically has four components uh this was created um in response to some of the challenges that we're having um with being able to permit some structures post storm and um intended to bring relief on some of those items uh so that they don't have to come in for a variance so the first item is uh section 68460 minimum yard regulations for accessory structures basically dealing with um mechanical equipment and if the building code requires it to be elevated and it can't meet that three-foot setback from the property line that's in our current code then it would allow it to encroach further but only as far as it has to encroach in order to be installed so the second section is uh 684 82 that's accessory uses generally and docks and pools are considered accessory structures so in our code you cannot have an accessory structure as a standalone use on a lot doesn't matter if you're uh residential or commercial or any type of use so those are not ever in any of our zoning districts as a use that can stand alone so typically what we've had in the past because of this regulation that it's an accessory to a primary use that's allowed uh is typically if somebody wanted to tear down a house we just say bring in your new building plans and we'll let you keep your pool in your dock you know just making sure that we connect the dots because we have had a couple nuisance pools here in the city that have been code enforcement problems for a long time um that were not required to be removed and you know as you know if you don't maintain a pool you have mosquitoes and you have um danger for uh neighborhood children for for instance so uh this ordinance allows you for a very specific time for two years following the hurricane to keep those structures without a permit in for a new use as long as you fence them off in compliance with Florida building code requirements for a pool safety fence so that is 68 482 is what that is about so it's specific to pools pool equipment docks and Boat Lifts uh and if there is a lift you will have uh lift or pool equipment then you're going to need power to run those things so it also allows a temporary power power pole to remain the um next section is 68512 that is our section on non-conforming structures and there is a specific regulation in our code that says that um residential and hotel motel uses um maintain the number of units and the square footage that they had as of a specific date in 1995 we have many non-conforming structures that have um don't meet today setback so basically if you are rebuilding in the wake of a hurricane you can retain the rights that you had so what we're putting uh proposing to put into the code is some language to clarify how that works because it says you can do it but it does not 100% clear as to what that means so we want to provide some clarity so the clarity that we're proposing is that you can maintain the number of units but say maybe you could have more square footage under the current code or you could retain your square footage but maybe or vice versa so whichever one is more friendly so this is Katherine this is in the case of where you're actually rebuilding you're not repairing this is when so if you're repairing a building you're already you're just keeping what you have yeah this is if you um and let me get the language exactly right here from the ordinance so so take what I mean I can Cliff note it take like one of these any of these Mom and Pops beach hotels yeah let's say they have 34 rooms today if they were to knock it down because whatever damage or they just that's what they want to do when they go to rebuild it they would have to build it into Conformity which may not have 34 rooms right that was just trying to get clarity that it would be on for where whether it was substant ually damaged or not it's immaterial this is this is in a case where they're actually rebuilding the hotel yes yes they can actually rebuild that is correct that is correct just want everybody on the same page on that right it doesn't let's it does not have to be even if it's not substantially damaged or substantially damaged if they want to no that's not the question corre it is I would make that clear right right essentially this is this this is rebuild correct yeah is damage or destroyed by a hurricane language perfect damaged or destroyed perfect worked for me so either but it is specific to being damaged by the hurricane it's doesn't give the right of an existing Hotel owner to demolish and then rebuild that was not damaged right this and have that and have that nonconformity pass with them right correct if you choose to tear down your hotel and you want to build a new hotel and it was not damaged by a hurricane you would not have these rights so I guess that brings up the obvious question how damaged does one have to be to make that decision code is silent on that and so to be very honest um we believe that every Hotel was damaged and and we're saying that pretty much every with the exception of the new structures that are elevated right like um Ocean Club or one of the newer hotels like the uh TI Resort that meet current Fe FEMA regulations correct and meet current code anyway that's immaterial then yeah yeah they're not going to be affected but everybody else that was on grade has damage and so we're proposing to allow this non-conformity for X period of time so the code already speaks to that and they have to um come in for sorry we shorted that out of here but basically it's a six months they have six months to apply from what date from from the storm which is pretty soon we're already three months past one moment it's in the code one moment let me find it give me a moment no it's all right if I think Chris the main concern of course is uh the code requiring only allowing the new code only allowing say 20 units for your existing Hotel was I'm actually more in favor of us extending the period of time I'd be afraid that someone with a small hotel might need more time great great response great response like if somebody if one of these Hotel here whatever it's if it's them if they sell it if they want to build something that is resilient and they keep their rooms let them do it like yeah without question I mean I'd be in favor more of two years instead of 6 months so just I'll give people the time to do it and to plan and totally agree that's in the code already though um what's in the code the the six month that she's looking up um and while you're looking that up let me let me ask exactly what apply means can you just give an indication that you you plan to do this or do you have to have a full application I mean I think that we should look at like the two-year thing because didn't you say two years on something else yeah seems reasonable to get to get res the noncon on theol and dos nonconforming I mean just to get just to get plans to build a new house you're looking at four to six months totally agree you can only imagine from a commercial standpoint what I'm wondering if maybe the the act of applying is but just notifying the city you plan on doing this yeah and and I'd be okay with that under the six months just I want to do anything that helps those people out that own businesses in Treasure Island did make it flexible I mean hell at this point let's give them more height and density that may be the next request I'm coming for it don't you worry you can touch that third drill or you want or us we already got a tall building on Golf Boulevard as it is well I don't want to hold you there for years we have consens long time since the 70s yeah I mean we do but I think we have consensus that we if I'm not speaking over Richard here that we would recommend that we extend that time to at least two years I'd be fine okay more generous more better unanimous consensus then I still I'm sorry but Clarity on when it begins when the clock begins on the two years or six months whatever it is okay so actually the reason that's not in the ordinance it's in a different section of the code but it is section 685 513 talks about termination so abandonment a non-conforming use not used for a period of 6 months or a or the change of use to a more restricted or conforming use for any period of time shall considered abandonment thereof and no such non-conforming use shall be revived so that's broader that's affecting all Comm that would be all nonconforming uses now these in well sometimes the use is non-conforming because it has too many units so I think we would probably want at your direction to bring this back in a separate ordinance because it's not in it's not covered in our in this ordinance at all um would probably be better only because I would very much like to get this approved as quickly as possible to give people the relief that is in here in the other sections sure and then bring bring you back 68 513 with a specific understanding that you would like to see an extension to two years for this act of God damage provision well it's kind of like what Michael was just saying too that a statement of intent to apply for a permit would that uh suffice to get them in the door so to speak I mean would let's put this way say Arthur Z I'm going to pick on him since I know him uh say his hotel was substantially damaged and he says yeah I'm going to build back here's an affidavit to that effect I would hope that that would uh cover him currently but I do agree with coming back yeah and clarifying and clarifying that next month yeah that's fine is that that yeah okay just because it's not in this ordinance and wasn't noticed that we're going to have a meeting about it so I would rather just separate that item out sure um and clarify how they establish that it's not abandon so you jumped over the first section on mechanical equipment and setbacks are you coming back to that or I had some questions regarding I had some questions on the first one and second one as well but I was just going to let her roll yeah so we can come back to that okay we'll come back to that I did talk about that section but we'll go back to that but let me finish this particular section and then we'll you do all the sections and we'll come back and hit each one of them okay so um for the non-conforming structures that we were just talking about which is uh that's a very good example a hotel a lot of our hotels have more units than they would be allowed today but they probably have a smaller square footage than they would be allowed today so what we were putting in the code was an intent to say you can have your more units and the current code square footage if that's better than having the same unit and the old square footage that you had before so that's the intent of what we wrote here and so the language is if the F allowed in the current code is greater than the SE September 19th 1995 level then the square footage or F may increase up to the currently allowed maximum so long as the project meets all other provisions of the code I.E you're not coming for a variance to go with that um the second sentence is if the number of units allowed in the current code is greater than the September 19 1995 level then the number of units may increase up to the currently allowed maximum so long as the project meets all other criteria in the code so you don't get to triple dip yeah you you get either the current code or the grandfathered code but you just because you've got the grandfathered code for the units doesn't mean you can't use the current code for that they are but it doesn't exclude them from potentially needing a variance on some other matter with respect to the plan all other provisions of the code I believe the clear reading of that is meaning you're you you're not going after say a variance to setbacks to go with that I guess because you're already non-conforming on all of that anyway so if you're you're if you stay within your non-conformance then you're fine okay and there's no sunset planned for this ordinance at all no this would just be this really when um Jen and I were looking at this code and we were talking about these questions that have been coming in from the hotels uh we looked at this and we said well this is what we think it means but we want to codify that so that people know what it means yeah I just want to make sure that God forbid this happens again in the year 2050 that uh we still have this yeah okay great and just for an example one of the hotels came in and uh I did the calculations with them and today they have 206 units and the current code would only allow 192 so they would come in with the 206 units but it may be a one or two story building now it may come back as a five-story building but that means it's then going to meet the new set the current setbacks and everything so that's the proposal you get so the last section of the code is allowable encroachments this is actually a new section of the code This was um two instances when the city permits encroachments into the required setbacks in sections 68 541 and 68 561 those are our normal setback provisions and our alternate setback Provisions to meet the flood plane elevation requirements of the Florida building code and chapter 66 of the code so this applies in two different ways the first is for an existing structure being elevated it allows the stairs and the meter platforms that are necessary to get to that building and service that building uh as minimal as possible and still meet the Florida building code so you're not going to have a grand staircase going to your elevated home but it you have access um the second is if an existing structure is required to install a new elevated meter that would allow that uh Duke Energy platform as we call it and the stairs to get to that to encroach as much as required to meet code once again and the Duke Energy requirements so those are the four Provisions in the code uh I know where Chris is going with his question so if you don't mind Chris I'll I'll address it um so there is a provision in the Florida building code residential that talks about exterior equipment damaged by flood says it must be elevated there are multiple interpretations of that going on around the State of Florida that was put into the code in January of this year as far as I know and uh the interpretation the initial interpretation by the pcclb which is the pinelis County Construction licensing board enabled by state legislation uh to register contractors and uh make sure that there's not uh work without permits in panel's county and also has an overlay on the building code so they have multiple functions under state law but they had put out an opinion that they shared with all the building officials in the county as well as they mailed letters to 10,000 contractors telling them that they were going to have to elevate mechanical and electrical equipment damaged by flood right now this is under hot discussion to be honest in many city in many cities and counties as to what this code when this code applies and how the code is interpreted under uh state law the building official in each jurisdiction has that call uh and under I've been asked how that would be appealed that's appealed back to the pcclb under our code so it's a circular Loop um so what we're doing is putting in the zoning code if the conclusion is they have to be elevated then this gives zoning a break so that they can be installed so they would be end up for instance either on a so I guess the best example is the Duke meter platform Duke requires a three foot wide Stairway to a three foot platform that's at least has 3 feet clear in front of the meter so quite often those I I know this board is as when acting as the pnz has heard a lot of variances to that on new houses and has denied that because on a new house you you have an option to design something else but when you're um required to elevate it on an existing house or it's on a house that's being elevated that probably is already at the setbacks you don't have that opportunity so that's what this is intended is to give the zoning complement if the building code requires it Catherine I'll just I guess I know you're living through this right well I'm not person Liv I saw you on Tuesday night and Catherine explaining it as right you know I personally don't have have this issue but I know that literally thousands of residents in Treasure Island are going to have this issue on homes that they're going to repair as opposed to um you know Elevate or replace and the basic you know bone of contention I guess or or interpret the interpretation problem is whether or not we're talking about replacing HVAC units on uh that were flood damaged on homes that were substantially damaged or on homes that were not substantially damaged the interpretation right now at least by that penel um licensing board was that it didn't matter if it was substantially damaged or not that opinion has been um you know counteracted by other counties that have said if a home is not substantially damaged and there's repairs going on even if it's flooded damage that an HVAC unit mechanical unit on the outside can remain at the grade level that it was prior to the flood they're allowed to raise it but it's not mandatory Pasco County is an example of one County that has made that administrative decision an interpretation of the Mechanical Code of Florida that it does not require elevation of mechanical equipment for nons substantially damaged structures because it falls under the existing building code repair section of the Florida code pelis County I've I've had discussions now with Andrew uh de Deo Deo who's the head Mechanical Code person with pelis County he has essentially agreed with Pasco County on this now verbally to me and has agreed with my interpretation of it as as an engineer uh reading the code and he is writing an opinion and I've shared that with Katherine already that it's going that he is getting the building officials of pelis County to essentially back step this to allow permits for and rep for HVAC units to remain at their existing grade for again replacement from flood damage when the home is not substantially damaged when it is substantially damaged then of course you got to raise it up whether however you're handling that substantial damage because you're elevating the home at that point anyway so you know this was going to be a a difficult thing for many residents that had you know gr ongr houses that were not substantially damaged to now with this raise their condenser unit 12 13 fet up in the air it it was Impractical and it would violate the setbacks and have other ramifications in terms of just the structure the you know an additional accessory structure so I think we're going to get past that um I hope we do because it then it'll only apply when we are elevating a home or building a new home and I think what you're describing to us now Katherine is with with respect to just if we're elevating homes whether or not we're going to have an allowance for stairwells to access those elevated HVAC units well the stairwell the HVAC does not require a stare but the elevated meters do the elevated meters do but in the case of the hbac units that would be elevated and and attached to the side of the building there's not an issue with but you don't have to have the stairwell up to them and that's not a setback issue at all is that correct so this is this is what we see in the actual permits that we're looking at so we have a lot of homes that were um I would say probably almost every HVAC that's not elevated on this island was was was damaged and we have a huge amount of HVAC permits um what sorry that's sorry I've completely lost my it's complex subject it's been a long week uh so what we're seeing is a lot of them have been damaged so if they have to be elevated this quite often we see that the new HVAC units a are much bigger than the old ones um you knowen they're quite large so on houses that have a 5 foot setback and then they try have to be three feet setback from the property line they can't even install a new HVAC where it was period under our current code so it would have to be moved like to a different yard to the backyard to another yard some house can't do that I mean to be very honest there's just no place to put it that would not be encroaching already so we have a huge number of them that just needs to be replaced period whether they're low or high they're they can't fit in the setback the whole reason to have it setback 3 feet from the property line is to protect the neighbors cuz no neighbor wants their neighbors hpac 5 in outside their bedroom window right right I mean that was the intent of the zoning to begin with was to protect neighboring properties it's always about that relationship uh but in this case we're seeing so many permits come in where they cannot be approved because they don't meet that three-foot seep back so just for the reason that the unit is larger for that reason yes is one of the reasons not because you had to elevate it both both reasons well and you had to elevate it because of this issue of replacing HVAC units in a non-s substantially damaged home so correct so if you are substantially damaged you're either going to well then you're going up that's I'm talking about just in the cases of nons subst that case you're you're still going to have an HVAC when you're taking an existing home and elevating it let's talk about that as compared to building a new house you're going to take that house theoretically straight up in the air talked to a bunch of house raising people and they've explained that that is the most efficient way to do it cost a lot more money to move the house left right back forth because we have a lot of houses on Sunset that already don't meet the setbacks and we said well in order to avoid having to give them a variance could they um and this was pre-storm could you move the house back 2 feet or over 2 feet and they said oh yeah anything is possible but it cost a lot more money so what we were trying to do is give people the ability to go straight up but then their HVAC is going to be straight up in the air and maybe it's going to have a stand if it's a new elevated house but if this if the if the Florida building code requires that to be elevated it's probably going to be on a stand freestanding stand and that's going to have a problem with the eve of the house it's going to push that out further than it might have been before if on a non-elevated house yes if the house is staying on grade and the HVAC is going up I can see that there could be a problem with that HVAC not interfering with the Eve so it might have come out 18 inches for the which is more reason than for our code official in Treasure Island to make sure he's interpreting the code correctly and not requiring HVAC units to be elevated in cases of non substantial damage well that is a conversation with the building official and is not before the and so therefore I don't think it's something that should be decided upon by the you know whether you know I shouldn't say decided because we're not deciding things directly you know you're not deciding that what you're deciding is should don't if it's required to put a new HVAC in and it doesn't fit would you allow it to encroach further into the setbacks that's yep that's the question and I guess we my own opinion is we shouldn't be making that decision if we don't know know what the code official is making uh until he makes his decision on what he's doing with non-substantial damaged buildings okay we're get we're putting the cart before the horse well clarify something for me real quick Chris you're only talking condensing units I mean we're not talking anything else we're talking about it's just the condensing unit and the way that it currently reads sounds like to me it has to the 100-year flood elevation is around elevation 13 the bottom of that condensing unit according to the way some people are interpreting the code is it's got to be the bottom of the unit has to be 13 which means in an unsubstantial damaged house it's going on the roof that's correct and uh that's a problem yeah yeah that's I mean yeah that's just kind of a problem because if it's nons substantially damaged and you want to replace it at grade uh I mean quite frankly in my opinion that's your risk well and that's and that is what in at least in my own interpretation of the code it does allow you to do we just have we haven't gotten the Treasure Island code official to make that decision even though Pasco County has already made that decision and even though you know panel's county is moving that direction but I haven't pulled all the other counties but this is you know it's going to happen all over Florida what we're proposing though in regards to what she's presenting today does not allow that does not allow an HV HVAC system to be replaced in staying at Ground a grade level I'm not amending the building code she's not amending the building code it just has to do with whether we allow the encroachment if we do if we do elevate it which is that cart before the horse is is pool part of this no no but Catherine right now I mean as equipment is Exempted right now the setback reduced setback is down to 3 feet from the property line that is correct okay just want to clarify that that's correct using my next door neighbors an example his is 3 feet away from the property line where the house set back is actually 7 and A2 so I agree with you Chris it's it's a little bit tough to uh have everything else in your house at grade level I mean your water heater your all your appliances your uh indoor air handler but you got to stick that uh condensing unit 13 ft up in the a I feel sorry for the poor old serviceman cuz I used to be one um that has to go work off a ladder at my house cuz mine is 13 ft up in the air but um yeah it seems to be almost uh could we picking out on that one piece of equipment could we allow the setback encroachment if we made them bracket it to the house so it's at least lifted it's not practical because you your house is lower than that it'd have to go on the roof well think doesn't have to if if because if your Eve is up below that level that's well correct me if I'm wrong Katherine but what we're talking about today is only for um houses that are either raised or it's just houses that are raised I mean we're not talking about unsubstantial damaged houses we're just trying to give up a little bit of relief to people who are saying yeah actually that's not true no they're they're they are talking about no I'm talking about giv allowance today for they're about giving the way it's written now is it but gives allowance for that reduction in setback in cases where the HVAC equipment is replaced in a non-substantial where you're not elevating the home and it was not substantially damaged they're they are you know putting that allowance in there in the way it's written now now we could take that out and just simply have it only apply to when we are elevating homes and then of course if you're elevating that H unit is going up anyway and whether or not it's on then it's bolted onto the side or it's on a platform well that's what I think I thought that's what we were talking about correct I'm WR but I think it applies it applies both places the way it's written so there's there's these two changes are in two different proposed part of the code the first one is accessory equipment and that that section of the code already exists and the language that we are proposing is unless a greater height is required under chapter 8 chapter 66 or the Florida building code if required to be elevated by chapter 8 chapter 66 or the Florida building code this equipment may encroach further into the setback only if required to elevate the equipment so it's if required right is the way it's written so you don't get to use this exception unless something makes you elevate the equipment which that that is my point from the beginning of this that is the cart before the horse because we're effectively now saying we're going to allow that that to occur if the code makes us do it and I'd say let the code get settled out before we make that decision well let's keep in mind that this ordinance was written six weeks ago and this question came up two weeks ago so we've been following the guidance of the PCB since the hurricanes and this is something to be sorted out in the building code so this is only a provision that if you are required to elevate your equipment it can encroach further if it has to so that's what the zoning code is saying it's not saying you have to elevate your equipment it's saying if other codes require that so I mean I'm likely just to let it go because there's a lot of people in there that are trying to get back into their houses and this would make it easier where my heads up I have a question not trying to get it sideways here we keep saying if somebody elevates their home right like lifts it up in the air yes are we going to run into any issues if somebody tears down a and I understand new build whatever but is someone going to say well I tore down my house and I built a brand new house and I want to have an ele my house will be elevated it's just newer it's not the one that was there are we going to run into an issue with somebody saying will you let that guy or girl raise their house the existing house and put it on there I build a brand new house and I can't have my stairs outside the setback are we going to run into any type of problem with that cuz I would see if my neighbor takes his existing house that was flooded lifts it up in the air he gets stairs that goes over the setback that's closer to my side I tear down my house I build a brand new house and I want to put stairs that encroach a little bit on his side but I'm being told no are we going to run into any issues from that perspective it's a fair argument right I'm I'm I'm creating an elevated house my neighbors creating an elevated house not trying to be difficult but yeah why should it make a difference yeah I agree yeah your house yeah your house is elevated well so is mine mine's newer I'm not saying it's better but can the reason why quite frankly Ross is because with new construction you got more flexibility that's the reason when I was chairman on this board and all these Architects were coming in and saying I need a variance for Duke Energy platform I'd say no you are building a brand new house so I won't setbacks I understand the platform thing I know that's you're our leader on that the Duke platform thing I understand that I'm just asking does the city going to have run into issues if because this is this is something that goes forward with it so I'm just putting it out there it's about fairness I'm but I'm still at the same time I'm still if someone comes in here and wants to lift their house I'm going to give them whatever platform they want or you know because that's I mean that's helps them down the road it helps the city down the road but I agree with you it almost seems unfair if you're going through the expense of building a brand new house that you can't have your set of steps up in your new house in the setback but that's the reason why that's the difference between ra having a little flexibility for people raising an old house because with your existing old house you don't need steps with the new house raised not a new house with the old house raise you got to have those steps so so why why would we treat someone who's putting up a new house any different than someone who's elevating their house just put this way Chris I mean I get to use myself as a prime example brand new house you need to meet the setbacks I mean we have setbacks for a reason right and God knows uh the two fires that we've had on uh Sunset Beach so far in the last 10 years burned up the houses on both sides of them because uh everything down there is too close together and I agree it almost seems unfair but that's just part of the unfairness of of the two different scenarios and uh is it unfair it seems like it but uh well if I how what how much time are we allowing the folks that want to raise to have have these this non-conformance on the setbacks you know how much is it way the now it is is it would be in as part of the code if you are elevating a structure you get this break period forever specific yes that's how it's written so if if if we're if we're making it a forever allowance then you should then there's no reason not to make it a forever allowance for a new structure I don't I really don't see the difference well you have to consider that you know the intent of zoning is to protect everyone protect all the property owners so in a brand new house would you want them to not meet the setbacks I guess HVAC and for electric meter platforms yeah I want them to meet all the setbacks that have been decided upon I guess but I'm not sure we should cherry pick out the ones that are being elevated that's what I'm having a TR having trouble getting my head around I mean for the purpose of today I'm I'm still okay with going forward we can address a new build down the road but just to keep things moving along I'm yeah Chris I think it's important for those lifted houses again my inquiry is more for the folks that I don't want the city to be held liable or anything like that if if someone were to come and be like well d d du we can address that down the road right now what Katherine's trying to accomplish for you know people that are trying to get permits and trying to get their house lifted and quotes and if if you know I know people that well they're like yeah I want to lift my house uh but I don't know if I'm going to be able to get the stairs inside the setback well this is going to allow them to feel more Comfort at ease to move forward with that type of lifting project well let's just make the uh scenario that yeah I'm going to lift my house but you have to meet the setback what do you do cut back half your you're stuck right you're stuck or you put put inside po of course that doesn't work it just difficult no it's not difficult it's damn near impossible because it ruins the structural Integrity of the house so while it doesn't seem fair to penalize the new guys he has flexibility where the old houses raised do not and uh I agree with you Chris so how much are the the setback are we trying to give allowance on for stairs specifically and is this just on the side or is it also front and back there's not a number it's as close as possible it's still as close as possible to the house and the minimum necessary to meet the code and if the people don't like it then they would come in for a variance and and so that's also for front steps then if someone who's trying to put front steps on an elevated house yes and so the determination of what is the minimum who's making that determination the so the minimum necessary to meet the building code is if you have a a 3 foot wide door for instance you have to have a 3 foot6 platform don't quote me on this cuz I haven't worked in the building code in a long time but um and then your stairs would need to be 3 ft wide for erress typically if it's on the sides but if you put it on the front you can't just keep going straight out to the street right no it's going to parallel the house if possible now you have houses and I will I'm the first to admit it's going to be very difficult to get a stair in there anyway on some of these houses in Sunset that are on these very small 30X 50 Lots right you're going to have a really hard time because they need to have two parking places so how you going to put a stair and still get in the parking it's probably not going to have a garage cuz it's it's so constraint it might just be on stilts but you've got to get that stair in somewhere and still be able to park on your lot so okay it's going to be Case by case and then there's other houses that have a huge you know front width and they can easily put a stair and two garage doors you you it just depends so I can foresee the minimum being not the best looking thing potentially in the front of a house that someone might want to do yes so you're GNA get plenty of folks coming in wanting to do the what they can so you they put the minimum in but they want to do something a little more we're saying they're going to have to come for a variance in those cases and we can decide that on a case-by Case basis exactly okay just want to Clarity on we just didn't want everyone to have to have a variance that's trying to LIF their house and it's pretty much um Treasure Island is somewhat unusual compared to I used to work in St Pete there was a lot of people had plenty of room in their setbacks to do things in Treasure Island almost every single house is built all the way to the setback lines yep especially in Sunset and in Sunset many are built over the setback lines Katherine you we've gone over this we've sent it to you it goes in front of the commission I saw you present it the other day to the commission now it's back it's just backwards because of the wrong ordinance number is the reason I brought it back to you just to technically correct it okay so now that's been corrected we've approved this all once before yes okay you should have started with that we would have just said yes we could have moved you've already approved this at the last meeting I just think more questions but then I wouldn't have been able to talk about hbac I know you already approved this at the last meeting but we brought it back so that the resolution can reference the correct ordinance number and then it would go back to the city commission the first meeting in January okay and Bas based on that any other questions of the city staff seeing none I think we should correct the ordinance numbers and move this forward I could say great situation the uh I agree with you Chris 100% uh how many air conditioning condensing units got blown off rooftops and the Hurricanes a bunch it's more dangerous to have it that way right but anyway and that should be the consideration that I would encourage Katherine and and Pat as the code official to um move forward with all du diligence in getting an interpretation correct on this with that can we have a uh a motion to forward this to the city commission I think the motion is actually on I thought it was on page 14 bottom of page four on the packet I'm looking at the wrong page here I'll make a I'll make a motion uh to approve resolution 20249 REM recommending that the city commission approve ordinance 2024 d27 a second a roll call vote please to Ross Sanchez yes Michael herbees Yes Marvin shavin yes Gary penano yes Chris Downing yes Grant Smith yes Richard Harris yes okay we will move on to the uh next item 6B request to approve resolution 20245 to adopt the terrain modification fill program this is um an item that we have heard over the last year um situation being is we have finally gotten to the point here where it's time for this board to make a recommendation to the city commission whether it's for approval or denial or approval with conditions and Justin I know you've given this board a lot of presentations before uh I think the only new member of the board that which hasn't heard all of them is uh Grant uh but give us a quick summary and uh we'll go from there and can we kind of can we kind of focus on what's changed yes absolutely appreciate that um so we we haven't had a chance to bring all the revised final ordinances back before you before we certainly talked about them high level about what those items were going to be but today we're going to go a little bit more in detail um but we have tried to be respectful of your time knowing that you have heard this um probably more than any other topic that's been discussed in my 10 years here at the city so we really have Dove deep into these um items but certainly we want to save the most of the time today for discussion and questions that you might have because there are so many um you know details involved within this program but just to te it up um so back in October um you know after the storms there was a commission meeting we actually didn't have power back to the building yet and we held it underneath and there was a generator running and it was really loud um we tried to capture it on a live stream but basically the commission at the time all said in one way or another that they wanted staff to come back and to look at what we can do to expedite a Phil program understanding that we needed to um build back with more resiliency in the city and so at that point we started to look at options and and how long they would take and actually prior to the storms after the August 20th City commission Workshop um you know they had asked us to make a number of changes one not make the fill use mandatory with reconstruction or elevation they said to take out cumulative substantial improvements take out the um 49% that we had revised from 50% and bring it back to them but when we looked at the Timeline to do that um it was no longer you know something that we wanted to have to wait that long to do given that we're in a recovery mode and people need permits to rebuild so we looked at Alternatives at that point and um since I mentioned CSI and the 49% I just want to stay from our perspectives obviously no one expected these storms to hit us this soon we never you know would recommend those changes given this environment so that was you know considering setting us up for the future and trying to reduce substantial damage within the community and so that was the whole point of making those recommendations and then they would not be recommended even from a staff's perspective given the situation that we're in um so going to the December 3rd meeting uh we had a discussion with the city commission and said you know we have these options of what we can do to meet um what you asked us to do in August 20th and they asked us to come back to you all keeping the Mandate in place to use Phill when you reconstruct or elevate a home or reconstruct a seaw wall but to to continue to remove the CSI and the 49% back to 50 and so that's what we have here for you today um and as we said this is Justin Keller with Advanced engineering and design and he's going to go through the presentation and also I guess in the interest of time here to get to the me of the subject like the the whole issue of mandatory you you the way in which you just stated it well that's the way everyone says it so I figure I'll use the lingo right yeah change that's what it is it's a setback it's a fence height it's it's a code it's a CO it's co codify yeah let's do to be clear what we're doing here if that if it were to go through as is is you're changing the code and making that a that fill part a requirement for con new substantially improved new or substantially improved properties um I just want to make sure everybody here understands that this it becomes part of the code and effectively the way in which everybody is stating it becomes a mandate okay yeah and and to um again Justin with Advance engineer I think our first presentation to y'all was was about a year ago back in December um before we get into those details I do want to take some time to kind of discuss the why you know I think one thing that's really important I'm sorry I'm gonna interrupt you again I apologize I know yeah so we're talking about them again codifying something to require this ele increased elevation um I'm still struggling I'm sure everyone up here struggles in at one level or another um no pun intended uh this elevation criteria and I'm trying to get my head around why under the circumstances that we have that we can't have the goals that we have within this terrain modification program or Elevate TI as it's called um and have our have those goals set in place and the guidelines that are set forth in that document go forth without there being a mandatory or codification of the Phil section of this and why that part specifically can't be a may I just haven't been able what we're going to go for today that's the point of the expain a little better and that comes back to why we're doing essentially when we talk about using Phill we are trying to say as we move forward we want to commit to providing a gra to having a gravity storm water system that's what this all comes down to is that pretty much you know we we are at a point right now and again this all kind of Started With The Watershed plan we're at a point to where the structures that we have right now that are going to go through this rebuild um one of the things we said early on is that whatever would happen from this there's going to be two ways it's going to happen the organic way which is what we all wanted or the crappy way and we're pretty much right here in the middle of the crappy way um to where we're going to have structures rebuild these structures are going to be rebuilt per code and if you fast forward to 2070 2100 a lot of these structures are going to be here a lot of the structures that we built in 19 what 1960s are are were still here now um from Helen so pretty much what what we're recognizing is that these structures here are going to I'm going to die and my kids are going to be old by the time these structures essentially are deemed structurally obsolete so how do we build these structures today are going to be around for some time to ensure that we can provide a storm water level service that pretty much is identified within your comp plan well I think you've just stated that most of the structures are just going to be repaired correct not re not new structures put up are you saying that the major you believe the majority of structures are going to be well I mean you're you're right down because of what happened you are probably facing one of the largest rebuild that the city yeah but that's from but that's from storm surge that's not from rainwater no that is true but the thing is that as as we the hold on sorry the other thing is because you're going to get into the why the one thing that in your why presentation on why this happening what we sat here and discussed this it went in front of the commission there was discussions about this whole mandate thing it got came came back to the the commission I mean there's City uproar all this stuff whatever there's sorry City feedback the commission then says to move forward without the Mandate and then we're sitting here today and we're being told in regards to this train modification Pro program it includes the Mandate still so that at the December 3rd meeting they told us to keep the mandate to use Phil that was the latest direction from the city commission and I know you have a lot of questions and we did leave room for that kind of discussion but I think that we're going to answer some of the question questions that you have if we could get through the presentation okay and are we going to go through every slide that's in this thing is this are we going to like is every yeah I mean that's that's is that the goal we're going to go through this whole the condensed version this the condensed version yes sir um but one of the things I put you're taking the basic premise here though that um the that we're not going to be repairing the majority of homes in Treasure Island that we're going to be replacing them as a result of the event of this last storm I don't no that's I mean all I'm saying is that is it a fair statement to say right now you're about to see probably more homes built in the next year than you've probably or built for whatever reason built in the next year based upon what you've seen on a yearly basis for the past 10 20 years absolutely I would agree with that still but there's also been homes being built in Treasure Island over the previous 10 years so sure the volume picks up a little bit but I mean it doesn't that doesn't mean that I'm changing when do we start to account for you know when do we start planning I guess maybe that's a good question is that when when do we start planning for the future and when do we start to build in a manner that supports some of the objectives I think we I think we do it now and that's why you have gu that's why you have goals and I think everybody up here agrees with the goals yeah I think what we don't agree with codifying something that is going to adversely impact the ability for people to actually re to actually build new homes because of the increased cost of those m stes I think that's where a great concern is and there's a great concern out there for the unintended consequences of changing the code itself for bringing in Phil when in fact it's not necessary to do that change of the code and still get an ordinance at the city level to allow Phil to be brought in no one at the state or at the federal government level is mandating that Treasure Island change their code in order to allow Phil to come in that's I want to make sure everybody understands that and I don't think we we you know in terms of what should be going forward shouldn't be anything that is changing the code in order for us to have good goals in raising the elevation to have good gravity gravity feed for storm water in the future and for future storms you're saying to allow Phil that there doesn't need to be code changes correct not to not there doesn't there doesn't need to be a mandate to the level of agree with that I should have said the level of Phill well let's let's let's get through the presentation if we could and we can return to this conversation because up to ultimately it's up to you all to make your recommendation to the commission however you want it to be to me concern here one clarification cost can we talk about cost yes we will talk about costest that's the problem and we've provided more cost detail would have I think I think it's cost and other intended consequences and in general not really wanting to mandate anything doesn't need to be mandated what other intended consequences are there well you know in terms of well there could be other intended consequences in terms of if you allow someone to bring a house that can bring it up say five feet or four four feet there are issues around what the community looks like as well so there are some other intended unintended consequen before we get into all the hypothetical can we get the present one thing that we want to do I mean we have heard about uh this removal of the prohibition of Phil on Treasure Island for almost a year now and this board has never made a recommendation the city commission got ahead of themselves a few months ago and they basically uh damn near approved the thing uh they overstepped their uh boundaries in my opinion what we want to do today is hear the presentation and come up with either a recommendation to deny it all or a recommendation to the city commission to approve it as is or a recommendation to approve it with a bunch of uh conditions but we're walking out of here today I hope with a recommendation to the city commission so at this point let's go ahead and hear the uh condensed uh presentation with taken into account that Grant Smith has not heard uh this cuz he only got on the board couple months three or four months ago hours of video man if you want to go back and take a look so anyway answer Ross's question because that's one that we actually don't cover in the presentation is absolutely we're never going to say that if you meet all these objectives in this program that you're going to be resilient from storm surge you could have a direct hit from a cat 5 hopefully that never ever happens here but when you look at Helen and the flooding that we experienced from Helen if we had built to those goals we would have been nearly resilient from that storm because that's a base floor of 7.6 the elevation of Helen I think was around yeah I mean there's some SLO in there obviously from like wave action that's not accounted for in those static Heights but um so certainly when you look back to the noname storm of last year you look at hurricane or tropical storm Ada Adalia and these storms that we've been experiencing I mean this would make a world of difference from from that type of I just well at this point let's go ahead and hear the presentation we're going to have a lot this going to go on for a while so we'll have a lot of time for uh questions and answers but let's get the uh presentation done but we're going to go from there and uh I would like to see this thing come up with a resolution with the type of conditions that this board I mean we got seven members of this board a lot of expertise on this board and we want to come up with conditions that we can present further to the city of uh Treasure Island City commission to uh do something because the status quo after Helen and Milton I just don't think is uh what we should do when I first heard this back in December 2023 I said finally we can get rid of that inan law that prents the uh import of Phil into this city and it I don't know it was done a long time ago I don't even want to get into the history of it but it was one of the worst decisions I've ever heard but anyway I think we're the only community in the area that doesn't allow it yeah let's go with the presentation correct sir I there's no other community that I know of that resides within the flood plane that just says use Phill and that's why we developed this program so we'll get into that let's go ahead those other communities have the have the fill without having a mandate that y'all are proposing referring to the Mandate that you must Elevate to a level no I'm not talking about the Mandate but which Community uses Phil today well I know there are other communities that use Phil today which I I thought what I heard was that madira beach allowed Phil true so so madir beach has taken a lot of interest or let me say we've we've talked to mad beach we we did their watershed management plan um they we've presented to their commission um back on the 19th that's on video too if you want to see that and they they certainly see a benefit moving forward and they're they're a lot earlier on in this process you know than than the city is and so they they want to look at pursuing um elevating roadways um which means that they will likely need to go down the same path and so while certainly um the discussion is much further developed within Treasure Island um that is something to where it it is you know I think other communities recognize that um you know kind of the the use of Phill without any kind of requirements is is not feasible and and if other people have today madira Beach allow us Phill without a Elevate type program is that they have an ordinance that allows Phil they they they have codes let's not let's not worry about what other other cities are doing Richard I know we're going to try to get this off the road I just want to make one I just have one I want to say one thing because it helps from his conversation I've asked twice for the top contractors Architects and Seawall people that that do business in the city to come in and give their feedback on this topic and I just feel like it's been ignored and questions like that we had a seaw wall workshop and an architect work I want them in this meeting some type of recomendation I want I want the they would be more than happy to come here do you know why all all three categories of those types of trade would come here because when you talk to the highlevel guys or even some of the mid-level guys or girls they all say how frustrating it is to do these types of projects and I'm not the only guy saying that you can talk to any one of your neighbors that have built a house built a seaw wall built the pool designed all of those they all say the same thing and that was one of my comments twice where I've made the comment of can we please hear from these people some of them are even local residents that would be more than happy to come down and say Here's what this terrain modification manual would do to projects rather and I understand that you're going to tell us that but I'd like to hear from the people that are in there submitting permits that are building on this island because I feel like then it's more factual information for us to make decisions on that's my position and I have asked that this is not new this is not a request not a request and I even gave a list I even gave lists of Builders and Architects and and seaw wall guys and pool guys and all we it's not here not here and so that's why I'm a little fired up along with what Richard was saying about how you know the stuff that you know from the commission standpoint trying to push this through after we you know anyway I think as a resident and a board member it may be more appropriate for you or you all as a board to reach out to those people from our standpoint as staff it looks like we're trying to get people to come and like Advocate and talk about a program and that's not what we do we're we're here to educate and not Advocate and that that's why we don't do that type of thing but you're welcome to do that I mean that would be great but we did have really good feedback from those professionals at those um former meetings and we have all of that live stream or on video as well on video on on the website okay well I'll tell you what at this point you know we're going to have a lot of time this going to take a little bit of time go ahead uh Justin with your presentation um and we'll we'll focus on Grant here and uh go for it all right so I'm gonna I'm G to speed through some slides and please tell please let me know if you want me to hey hey go back and talk about the a little bit in detail but um certainly you know I understand that we're at a point to where we want to keep this more discussion based so I'm going to be very very fast with this so just generally so we talk about the why why are we doing Phil why are we having it to where you know we're telling people that it needs to be a code change and they need to incorporate it U well that's because uh within the 21 uh waterers sh man agement plan we identified okay the city is low not rocket science everyone knows that the city is low we have low roads moving forward how do we provide a reasonable storm water level service and so while we certainly had um you know there there's the opportunity to look at more Regional options uh that would involve different stakeholders we try to kind of stay within our sandbox and control what we can control and say what can the city pursue independently in order to provide storm water level service with low roadway way as we continue to see elevations changes within the within HTS so and pretty much we came down to storm water pump stations and Phil or or Phil I apologize and so um you know from a big picture standpoint and the recommendation within the watershed management plan was uh the use of Phill that was approved by the commission via uh via resolution and therefore um you know that that's where with the that that's kind of how this whole thing kicked off is that the commission at that time saw the benefit of moving forward with Phil as a way to provide storm level service moving forward um this is essentially uh you know kind of a graphical representation of what some of these um you know what what a higher tide would look like um you know obviously we've been through the process we've been accused of fear mongering socialism all that kind of stuff and so um you know from our standpoint what what we are picked we are picking the middle scenario okay we're not going out there and saying that if everything goes wrong this is what's going to happen uh no this is this is the the intermediate projection um and then also one thing too to consider is that you know um Governor Dan Santa started the resilient Florida program um to essentially provide communities the ability to get funds in order to improve resiliency so this is not something that we're coming we're coming to you with that no other entity or no other agency is concerned about these are these are concerns that are going to be going up and down the coast of pelison throughout Florida so uh the city already experiences sunny or um you guys already experienced sunny day flooding I'm glad I had to tell you that so uh the uh and as far as who's responsible you know you know that's a big thing too is that essentially from the federal level and from the state level these programs are being provided to give communities the authority and kind of more or less empowering communities through through giving funds and you know providing the this programmatic help is to rec or pretty much to recognize that that responsibility is on the city so kind of No One's Gonna you know it's it's up to the communities to plan and that's coming down from Noah that's coming down from the state is that it's the community responsibility to come up with their own plan that works within their own you know what that works for their constituents so you know it's not you know this is this is a code change okay and some of the things that there has been you know from a design construction standpoint there has been things that have happened that triggered code changes um you know pretty much you know for for Florida one of the big things was 1992 Hurricane Andrew and they went ahead and they changed the building code to 185 miles you know that you know they changed the code and they required uh openings to be impact resistant or and that was met with a lot of resistance why because it's a change because you know because a lot of the same concerns that are present here are pretty much going to be there like why are people resistance as Financial concerns we're impacting growth uh political opposition from you know we don't want to have a mandate uh it's government over these are all the same reasons that any code change gets fought and this is something to where you know if you if you're a true nerd like me and you want to go back and look at historical articles after Hurricane Andrew a lot of these same discussions happened and you know we we we understand that that it is it is a new change and so while we're certainly not insensitive to these um we do recognize that anytime you have a change that that you know kind of changes how you build there there's going to be some significant blowback from the community um and essentially what this does this changes the way we build sites homes businesses seaw walls roadways what this is is we're we're saying we want to stick with gravity sewers that's what this is all this comes down to we're going to change our code so people build a certain way so we can stick with gravity storm water we went ahead and we broke down different development classifications um because again we we recognized that um you know pretty much the architect that's working on a residential structure is going to be different than working for a large um you know for a large commercial property so we went ahead and we we provided uh four different categories or development classification all those have unique requirements that that need to be met and the reason why we need to meet requirements is because again um you you cannot just add fill willy-nilly there has to be guidelines there has to be you know there has to be checks and balances in order to do that because there can be adverse impacts um so what are the Alternatives certainly the Alternatives is is we can we can do nothing um do nothing I think today kind of looks like just keeping our codes as they are um in the future that probably looks like abandoning lowline areas because there will be a time to where the bill will come due and um whether that's you know to where you have to build a you know not sound dramatic but entally you know Elevate around the city and keep everything at the same elevation and you know almost like have a New Orleans type configuration um which would force you to rely on storm water pump stations or you just say hey some of these areas are too risky to continue to populate and we're just going to kind of phase out that part of the island over time so obviously the main things and and I think we kind of hit on these organically really um why is the manual needed why can't the market decide what are the costs and what are the other rake changes I mean I I I you know I think I hope that kind of summarizes a lot of the discussion that we're going to be having here moving forward um so why why do we need the manual um there are there are cities out there that have vague codes you know there are certain things that the city of Treasure Island does because of vagueness within their code is that they have to develop certain internal procedures and someone may say well why do you do that well that's just because how we've done it you know and a lot of times in other places to where they'll be like oh well actually our code doesn't really say it but here here's how we just kind of interpret it or here's how we do it so a lot of times you will see something where you're like wait a second the code doesn't allow it how did that get built well that is really more or less um either a building department or a plane reviewer just pretty much saying well these are the rules I got to review it by and it's not really clear and we adopted this policy and so we're just kind of carry it forward for consistency so and also we need to make sure that if if we do have fill the last thing we want to do is to add a requirement and not have predictability and Clarity and what what we're doing is that by having by having the manual we we are telling the design Community well he here are the checks and balances or here are the checks and the things that you need to meet to get your permit um I'm a civil engineer I do permitting I love lists I love knowing what I'm up against and I know I I love knowing essentially what is what what are the rules and just tell me what to follow okay and and so this kind of this manual does that rather than you know it it provides you know Alpha numerical identifications for did you meet this requirement do you meet this requirement it it it spells it out to where you follow the procedure it's not some theoretical nonsense it's black and white it's something that anybody who's who's designed who's actually designed can manage the way around this so and we need requirements and how we use fill again the it is recognized from a flood plan management standpoint from a drainage standpoint Phil cannot be used willy-nilly so what so what happens if we just say okay go use Phil and do it how you feel you want to okay we have issues with nfip we have certain areas that essentially um where nfip mandates the amount of fil that we can go ahead and we can put in that area um we also understand that you know we really have two different flood planes we have the big flood plane which is the storm surge which is special flood Hazard area and we have a secondary flood plane which is a rainfall based flood plane just because it's not on FEMA's website does not mean that it does not exist and that flood plane has a volume and we need to make sure that we protect that volume because there's a reason why cities go no fill because it's a hell of a lot easier than having a manual and so you just say no fill that takes all that nonsense off my plate and then we'll just be you know we'll just kind of do what we need to do um we also recognize that when you use fill when you have significant rainfall events like a Milton something that drops a lot of water on us adding fill can kind of change how water moves over the land in in a pretty much in a severe storm event and those impacts can have those changes can have adverse impacts on people and then also too we want to make sure that we don't render sites functionally obsolete that we want to make sure that if we use Phil and we say hey we want you to meet this goal that if you're in Sunset Beach with a 30 by3 property in a low road well you're probably not going to be able to meet it so rather than force you to take your car and go up a 45 degree Hill you know we're we we pretty much have checks within the manual that recognizes the uniqueness of each property and says okay well here's the goal but if you can't meet it now we start scaling down and so there's a likelihood you know when we when we get to the cost you're going to see I think we have like 16 cost scenarios because there's not just a blanket it's going to be X it's going to depend on your flood plane you know what what kind of flood Hazard area you're in it's going to depend on you know pretty much like the the elevation of your roadway and whether or not you can meet those driveway slope requirements to even get to the 7 foot6 it's going to depend on what what your lot size is and how much room you have to go to point A to B so we did what we feel was a you know actually I think we found out that there are even smaller lot sizes in Sunset like 3,500 square F feet which would change those numbers but we'll certainly get to that and I'll probably talk on that and we'll go back to that slide because that's you know likely going to be something we're going want to discuss in more detail um TR you know this this nothing in here proposes that you elevate your home um you know pretty much this is all driven by the this is all driven by the property owner I talked earlier about the crappy way or the organic way and my god did we hope that we wanted it to be the organic way um if it even happen so um certainly now we're at a point to where again it's um you know I'm we're not saying it's a total rebuild but we recognize that it's it is going to be kind of a a a scenario to where we have people that are going to choose to rebuild and there's going to be a lot of change on the island just because of the recent events okay the field depths will not be uniform on each site um the last thing we wanted to do is have some kind of draconian edict that pretty much says okay everybody does this amount that's just not practical um so what we did is that you know and and that's where the requirements come into play because in order to truly say that you recognize the uniqueness of each property you know you you have to make sure that you have a system that uh did I do something there L it just went to sleep that was the timer yeah say sorry GR we're done so all right I can grab BR I think several of us had the printed packet okay yeah you can keep going all right well yeah I'll keep on going if everyone's fine with that just one keep going we all have a printed packet all right okay do you have a printed packet yeah yeah all right yeah okay so so the fill depths will not be uniform um and uh you know so so when we talk about the cost to rebuild um you know you know we're not you know we're not working in a vacuum here we understand that that Phill Phill will cost money um but the large majority of the cost that you experience if you build a new home in a coastal area it's going to be elevating your low your lowest floor your finished floor to um to to the FEMA flood plane elevation um this this program does not propose to change anything regarding the FEMA flood or let's say your lowest floor elevation the free board and a you know a special flood has haard area remain unchanged through through these ordinance revisions dry flood proofing is still permitted and you know one of the main goals is that we we wanted to make sure that um we we create an environment to where property still drain to the road we want to make sure that you know we don't have a scenario to where these roads you know if if if this program was pursued down the line to where the roads end up higher than the than the homes I I don't if if it were my property I would not want to drive down into my home um and then also um you know there you know obviously one of the questions early on uh that that I believe the LPA brought up last December was about what about the impacts to other properties um and we have checks within the storm water code section that essentially requires that the a local collection system be designed to a certain capacity in order to make sure that those facilities are in place to not impact a jent neighbors um so the next slide I actually kind of want to toss let's let's move for forward on that because I want to get back to that one later I think it's a bit more you know um helpful when we actually can see it on the screen um we have a graph that kind of shows the program goals um you know it it was you know the one thing I I I I I think we've been very um very consistent on saying that this is not hurricane be gone or this is not anything that's going to help us during a hurricane um what this is is this is to this is to um ensure that we can get a storm a reasonable storm water level service using gravity piping as you know with you know as as we continue to feel the impacts of um of sea level rise well let me uh interject something real quick uh Justin you know I'm getting old I kind of have a hard time going back I want people on this board if you need to interject something uh please do interrupt Justin I mean we've heard this before I will interrupt you and uh this you just said it's not going to protect us against the hurricane I agree with you 100% but you have to admit the only one of those two hurricanes that really affected us waterwise was Helen and myself in this example if I had done what I wanted to do 28 years ago my house would have been 2 foot higher I would have had five Ines of water in my house instead of 30 you know or make those work anyway it would have uh I would have been a hell of a lot better shape than what I have so when you say that it doesn't protect against hurricanes it doesn't you get a category 5 here we're all done we know that but when you get a category two or in the case of Helen that was category 4 but it was 100 miles offshore but it was perfect to uh hurt Tampa Bay because the counterclockwise rotation pushed a ton of water up into the bay and up into boaa Bay and of course affected everybody on this board who lives in this City uh if this had if we' been higher we would have been helped a lot so to say it's not going to protect us I agree with but it will help us that's the main point it will help us um you know we can you know C certainly you know the prog you know to kind of expand on those points um the the the reason why we say it's not going to help us because what helps us is building per the you know per the FEMA guidelines that that's what helps us from hurricanes and so we want to make make sure that as as we go out and we talk about this program in a public setting that there is no um let's say misunderstanding from the public standpoint that if you do this you don't got to worry about FEMA no hurricane is FEMA like like that we we want to make sure that correlation remains strong now with that being said this program can have secondary benefits and I would say a secondary benefit is that yeah it's probably nice to not get water in your home you know um and if you can increase those chances um that's a good so kind of moving on you know train modification um for roads um you know we we you one of the things that's unique about the program is that you know we recognize that you know the the viability of this program um really comes by the fact that we have time to plan right now and that's why um you know you know we think it's so important to move forward is because it's so much easier to kind of climb the mountain when the when the uh when the slope is a little bit you know not not so steep um and so essentially what what we know is that there going to be certain you know there are going to be certain roadway maintenance activities that are going to be needed moving forward um whether we do this program or not roads are going to be need you know be rebuilt repaved um and so that that cost is kind of baked in regardless so we have the opportunity to where if we were to pursue um tray modification within the roadway then what we can do is you know you can almost add add percentage to the scope of work um and and you can kind of take those baked in costs and and add some increased value by you know kind of phasing or sequentially adding elevation over multiple projects um it is very unlikely that there's going to be a single roadway project that meets the goal elevation um but again if we can kind of you know walk up that mountain slowly and more or less know that okay we don't have to meet all these objectives by 2040 we're looking at 2100 well that means that I think we got a better better shot of reaching our goal one of the things that I I mentioned to the commission and um the fact that roads can be elevated today it's just as Justin said we're probably not on most roads going to be able to meet that low road elevation goal of 5.1 feet right away but that's not to say that we don't need to reconstruct roads after all this Redevelopment happens you know we had roads that were inundated we had a lot of debris traffic on them and now in some areas we're going to have lots and lots of construction traffic over the next few years there's going to be roads that need to be reconstructed and we would be silly not to look at those on a project by- project basis and say does it make sense to add that extra 15% onto that roadway reconstruction cost or maybe it's 30% onto it whatever it may be to to improve you know the drainage capability of that roadway um so that's something that I think the city's going to need to look at and to look for Grants to help you know provide funding for and and just to clarify you know when um you know as far as when we mentioned whatever percentage that may be we did ident ify a range I'm in Prior presentation about like like 15 was it 15 to 40 um just like when we talk about how how there are different scenarios to determine what the cost would be for an individual homeowner it's really going to be the same thing for a roadway but you really can't raise the roads until virtually everybody is raised so well you you you can't reach the goal elevation until everybody's there you know so so essentially you know if if if we are rebuilding a roadway and and again I I design roadways in multiple communities in the county so we've done this I personally designed the plans so if we're rebuilding a roadway um we're going to set line and grade and that line and grade is going to be based upon the finished floor or the garages of the existing structures because again um I will be fired if I slow back in people's yards um and there are opportunities to where if we go in and and we were to rebuild a roadway if we don't have you know if if we have the ability to use fill towards a specific goal well then there are places to where yeah this house is low I can't add fill here but I can add 12 Ines here and I can add 8 inches here and essentially what you can do is you could start building that Foundation over time and what that allows you to do is that allows it to wear as these homes organically or through whatever way get rebuilt now you can reset that datum now you say okay then when we come back again in 40 years now we've had 40 Years of the development under the program around us now instead of getting eight inches here and 10 inches here and kind of nibbling on the edges now it can get two foot now it can get three foot and so that's why we're thinking that there's going to be about probably two maybe three Pro three cycles of Road a rehab in order to get these goal elevations in place be because it does rely on the elevation of the home but there is a big difference to say we can't meet our goals to where we can't Elevate but you're saying today we could raise some of the roads some amount yeah mhm yeah and and and and again you know with no con no new construction yeah and so there are definitely locations like that and and you know let's say you went on a trip to Europe for a year and then came back and you saw it you'd be like what' you do it looks like the same damn road you know because it may be six right inches and it may not be immediately you know immediately noticeable um but the elevation will be there I think anytime a road is reconstructed you know they look at runoff and any improvements that could be made and often times that includes raising the height and even if the code's permited it right and you know and then pretty much I mean TR really getting how sausage is made I draw on my profile use I draw all the garages or the Finish because that's kind of my check when I'm designing to make sure that I'm providing positive drainage yeah and all this is going to be Case by case yeah no and and there there will be you know and I say that and there'll a road to where when you go to Sunset I'll be like um never mind yeah I know know and and that's why you know certainly it it helps to talk about the program in big big generalities how much fill for this home how much fill for this road but in order to do this right in order to where you know because the only way this thing works is that if let's say it gets approved if it doesn't pass the next commission it ain't going to work so the whole thing is that we have to make sure sure that we have a program that once it's implemented it's not having adverse impacts to the public there's not consequences of people kind of let's say running off on neighbors yards you're not building some new home and the city told you your garage has to be this high and you can't get your car up in the garage because we know that that's going to kill the program and and if we kill the program before 2100 so so a real key Point here is that as this program goes forward the city's going to have an opportunity to raise the level of the road when they want to it will be a May that the city May raise the road if they have the funding to do it and they can work towards improving the overall goal if the surrounding area allows them to do it but it will not be mandatory as it's currently written for the city you make it mandatory you can't buy into into commission to allate that's my point is I I don't want to make it mandatory what I'm saying is we're not making it mandatory for the city to raise the road you would make it like the city would have to follow the train modation manual for their own projects well I again I I I would not want what happens when you don't make it there the dollar amounts that would be involved and this goes to this unintended consequences thing that we were just talking about earlier that if we have a program that we're going forward with it's like this that is has a mandatory factor in it for permitting a new road to be reconstructed that road now is going to have to be elevated and the city's going to have to pay for it which means the citizens of Treasure Island are going to have to pay for it and that's and that is a lot up this and that's why you're holding up that big dollar sign so my overall point here is again going back to this having goals is great let's work towards doing good things but making them mandatory either for the city or for the individual residents has to be quelled here and do you know do you understand that what happens when you don't make it mandatory I what I I think there's a lot of things that happen in life when they're not mandatory I think market conditions I think common sense I think good design goes forward I don't think that the government mandating particular things causes good things to happen in every case is is you'll have developers who who don't care your the no I can I just explain this there will be some people who don't have an interest in this community or in that neighborhood Who redevelop sites who who don't do it and they will be negatively impacting everybody in that neighborhood that relies on that adjacent road to access their homes into the future because people who do have you know the consideration for the community will likely at some point you know want to add Phill if they're spending that much money on their site and we haven't gotten to the cost element of it yet which we need to talk about because absolutely this comes down to cost that's that's that is the complaint that I have heard for the last year that is what I hear every day when people talk to me about this that money the city does not have any money we had to go back in 2000 begging to the federal government to get $50 million from Bill Young to rebuild the uh drawbridge because this city cannot save a dime we do not have money to raise roads it doesn't happen I watched there with my neighbor was the commissioner back then and our main access to this island was damn near condemned it was on the verge of collapse they went to Bill Young uh they were using the tolls for maintenance went to Bill Young he said okay I give you $50 million you will never have a toll on that bridge again certain individuals in this city tried to get a toll back uh thank God we didn't if we did we should have given the money back but that's the main problem it's money for the individual on raising H uh the C the cost to raise their house and I will argue all day long about that but the main thing is and Justin this is where you kind of uh set people off off in the city when you put up during one of the meetings and God knows I can't remember which one it might have been the one on August 20th where you put up a cost estimate of TW of $10 million a mile and then said there's 24 miles of Road and $240 million later we can raise all these roads and of course Bob Manning goes but the state's not going to raise go Boulevard and you know things started to go downhill from there I'm just saying what I am getting hit with with and it's boiling down to one thing and one thing only there's two aspects of the cost one is the municipal cost which actually comes back to the back to the citizen anyway right to the citizen to the taxpayer the other one is the individual and provided and I kept hearing another thing oh the city of treas is trying to drive you out of your sing single story house no no they are not they are not but FEMA is FEMA is in Mother Nature will have done that to a lot of people but they're not but the thing is let's just say that you want to uh um build a new house and you have to do this I mean let's put this way in my engineering mind and Justin's engineering mind and Stacy's why would you build a house after what just happened lower than what you could I mean h once again as of me as example I want my house 2 higher than what it is my ship is sailed I can't raise my house any higher um what if the guidelines as they are now would let you do it four feet higher because of the way in which you have enough room to do it and and the geometry of your particular home would allow it on that particular lot to be raised 4 feet would you want that would you want that mandated or would you want the option to go I you want the option to go 6 in one foot or two foot and let good design take its course Chris you're an engineer Michael's an engineer I'm an engineer all the other guys that lived here forever and have their certain levels of expertise I want to be I would love to think that people are smart enough to realize hey I don't want to ever go through that again I mean uh provided once again we're beating the dead horse we're not protecting against the category five we are protecting against the category one we are protecting against the tropical storms we're not even protecting against any of this it's not it's not about tropical it's just about sea level rise and just general flooding that would occur in that's the one thing the sea level rise I mean it's provided it happens on King ties but once again Ross I know you're shaking your head at me but damn for a category one storm don't you think that uh if you raised your house on your own that you would have been a hell of a lot better off I mean you can't say like the what if perspective but I mean like what Stacy was just saying about like development and and and like you know what's best for the city and this that and the other look around like even before the storm like what was so advantageous for all these people to come and come and build and develop in Treasure Island I mean downtown's been sitting the club's been I mean you guys have heard me constantly say this and I just this I mean I know that we're talking a lot about residential here but we haven't even gotten into the commercial aspect of this like what this does to the commercial thing and again going back to my previous comments let's talk to the people that own these parcels and say hey if this goes through does this make it harder for you to help TI get to the next page or does it hurt you know that is the basic question like yeah we have discussed it as at business meetings that are held here once every month but I think that would be a great thing for you know the board and for the commission to do but this town's the same as it was 30 years ago when I was growing up here there's nothing different and like now we have this blank it's sad to say because it's heartbreaking this blank canvas because of a storm which is an opportunity this is an opportunity but at the same time we also have it a heart and to make things more difficult whether it's to be to get a permit for your Residential Building or build a a a whatever the other thing that I have notes on is from this is like how does this impact the new fire station or the new Public Works building or the or the how much is that going to cost like let's get real numbers when it comes to if this is going to be a something that they want to move forward we need to figure out what how's this going to like you're talking about taxpayers and we need a new fire station right that's I'm not saying that's going to happen but it probably will are they going to have to build up on a hill the grants and the money are are surrounded by resiliency that's where the money is right now you know for the master Pump Station we had that funded through through funding and it was because of the resiliency aspects that we built into that design well you look at the saying there's just a lot of stuff going on to like in and I understand the time period And I understand where people are coming in and they got scraping hous and they're building lots and that's why it's important but I think administratively with what we have going on out there just where my hearts set and what I've seen like we have struggles getting things going as it is even looking out into that room today even looking at downtown like it's just hard for me to sit here today and be like yep I want to do exactly this I want to move forward so I'm curious about the approving with conditions aspect of it but and I've and I'm still listening I'm still engaged and that's just that's just where I'm at just I mean you were talking about the fire department Ross you look at Mader beaches that's what they did they built it up on a hill I mean we didn't because city of Treasure Island I must admit city of Treasure Island does use their facilities out to pass their expected life my road in front of my house I've lived there for 38 years I talked to one of my neighbors who lived there for 70 years roads never in front of our house haven't been repaved since they were PID since they were built that's my personal situation is 38 years you know it says in this document expected life is 30 years are we going to have some uh major damage to the number of dump trucks running up and down these roads absolutely yeah uh is now a time to um raise them if we get the chance but there's not going to be a uniform program the biggest problem is and what I think a lot of people are having a hard time seeing is the roads really aren't going to be raised to the end of this project you can't get everybody on board it's like trying to tear down a condominium unit you can't buy every unit you can't get everybody to raise their house that's the major problem and it boils down to uh that and money I mean go ahead Justin unless anybody else has F it's hard to tell somebody that has like the sunny day flooding happening right now and there's several areas in the city and it's gotten worse in my time here it's hard to tell those people and look at them today and say hey we're going to go out there and reconstruct your road but we're not going to look at spending the extra 20% 15 30% whatever it is even if it's only a foot to make a foot of elevation in some areas that are experiencing that today would make a world of difference which is why we need a simplified fill ordinance for this city to allow that to Happ I don't know what that is no one's no one has shown us what that means what does that mean it we allow it means that we allow Phil with no with no restriction with not I I didn't say that I said a limited Phill ordinance and the fact that I've said it's an ordinance means that there's rules involved and that it isn't just bring in as much fill as you want it's living within the storm take it you know dra drainage plan for a particular site it means living within what you have the city has to do and building a road and do and improving the storm sewers it allow enough fill to make it happen right there has to be a way to have ordinances to do that without it being a a blanket program thing is that has that has restrict the kinds of restrictions and mandates that this does to you know I what I heard ear earlier today you know or or just in this presentation today it really concerns me CU I was already concerned about the individual residents now I'm even more concerned about this becoming a if it goes through the way it is that it becomes a mandate for the city to do certain things in certain areas that they don't have the money for so what do you do you're in Catch 22 which is a good reason not to make it a mandate well the thing is Chris one of the things that is required and will always be required and one one of the conditions I want is a signed and sealed drainage planed for every new house and every new project every hotel right we already require that yeah I know we requireed but I want to make damn sure we do it because we're saying oh you can just bring in unlimited amounts of fill yeah but you can't uh dump water out onto your neighbor isn't that exactly what a Phil ordinance for the city would State exactly that you are allowed to bring in Phil to the point that you're still going to pass your drainage plan for that particular you're saying don't use his manual you have a problem do you have a problem with his manual I'm not I'm not saying that we don't that it isn't a good thing to have a manual over why would so have a so have a your thing is mandatory or not it gets back to let's not put undue burden on the property owners and on the city itself because if you put this burden on the city you're going to put the burden on all taxpayers here we we we've explained to this board and to the commission that that can be done that you can develop like a no fill or a fill pathway in this program and in this code it can be done it doesn't meet the the requirements of our watershed management plan it doesn't meet the requirements of the adopted comprehensive plan you can go back and revise those documents to say we're not meeting our storm water goals anymore we're allowing Phil for properties when they want to use it you can do that it's going to take more time and it's going to take more money it's right thing to do then you do it you can I'm telling you you can but is it the right thing to not be able to raise roads going forward because you have holdouts from developers and people like Richard was saying on his street all these multif family homes are probably going to be going up soon from these developments no I I don't think Absolut at this at this stage that we should be penalizing an individual homeowner um it's not just individual homeowners it absolutely affects an individual home owner because you're mandating them to go to a certain level is who you're penalizing you're mandating them to go to a certain level you're not allowing them to bring filling and and have good design you're mandating a certain height one of the things Fe is is the speck home builder versus the homeowner as a homeowner I'm like hey I don't want to flood again spec home builder doesn't give a damn he's going to live no I think that's absolutely wrong because it's going to cost him in the long run oh you built your house 3 foot lower than it could have been oh then your house is worth a million dollars less than uh what the house next to it is because of hurricane Hela right so it won't be here the next time so right now we have in our code a provision that says if you regrade your lot and people do this you know they they you can speak better this than I can but they they dig swes on the side of their yard in order to get some extra fill in order to to raise up their base floor of their house because they can't bring in new fill but they can repurpose The Fill that's already allocated to their lot and the code says not for Baum but like you can't cause adverse impacts you can't drain on to your neighbors it's not working that doesn't work we have several examples where where that is not enough guidance to prevent adverse impacts from taking place and that is why like Justin said in the beginning of this presentation other communities that reside within the flood plane like the city of Treasure Island don't allow Phill right which is why we need a simplified Phill ordinance because it's simplified method methodology didn't doesn't work as you just stated so I agree with you on that I'm saying the the simplified version doesn't work is what I'm trying to explain to you what's in our code today I I agree that that simplified version doesn't work because we don't allow Phil had we allowed Phil it would even be worse it would not be worse because you still have to submit a drainage plan that would allow that doesn't adversely affect the neighboring properties now this there's a lot guideline Chris is that correct that can happen that's that's one that's one aspect so for you know one one thing that I know that's the only aspect I thought we were talking about no one one of the things that I know has been you know discussed in the past has been the you know the manual and I think throughout the the process um the manual that is stayed the certain number of pages has grown every time uh we've talked about in the public setting from 400 to 1200 pages and um the the there there is not an effective way to pretty much take your faill and strike out the word no essentially and so obviously when we talk about a Simplicity standpoint the simplest way in the in the code in theory could be just say we'll just remove the no fill but when you just remove the no fill and you start allowing fill that's where we get into the discussion that we had earlier which is about if we don't have checks and balances on how to use Phill then then we can have adverse impacts throughout the community so if we want Phill we we think that there needs to be a series of checks and balances which is really what the manual which is which is why you implement ordinances or or the requirements such as having a storm water plan for any new new build like we have today we have an that is part of the ordinance today that a storm water plan be done for a new structure so that there isn't adverse effect to the flow of water to the to to the street or to to neighbors so I'm I'm I'm struggling here to understand you know just I'm not saying that it's as simple as just taking no fill out but I am struggling why it if I take that out that I'm that the other direction to go is the complete opposite which is to say we are going to force you to fill to make that first floor a particular elevation the maximum that it can be within the Guides of the guideline not that you may but that you must and that's where I think the majority of people that I've spoken to in the community feel that it's Draconian no I mean and and and there's no way because we're sitting here I mean I mean it's a code right a six foot fence height that's Draconian uh this setback that I mean there's there's rules in place to make sure that that the the let's say the community you know Draconian means that something is in that it's a is a rule which is put in place with without good basis well I mean what's what's the lack of good basis here just so I understand and I can maybe try to do a better job in modify the manuals so he was talking so he was talking about how like the Bas flood like in understanding this because my head just keeps going and going when it comes to okay yeah so raising the floor I get it but then we haven't even gotten to the fence part of it like you had just mentioned six foot fence I get that but so in regards to this mandate don't isn't they don't people have to start putting in retaining walls for the runoff water yeah okay so major different again going back major difference between a white PVC fence versus cinder block fence or a wall yeah a wall major difference especially when you're talking about 130 foot you know length W okay that's fine let's let's keep going to the next part of it the seaw Wall Part of it so let's say someone comes to the island they buy a single story home that got refurbished whatever but they put in a new seaw wall today right at the 5.1 I think is what it's at they they go out and they buy a brand new seaw wall right you know they okay right they're there brand new seaw wall two years later later they decide that they want to scrape the house and build it up in the air if this was in place do they now have to rip out that not rip out that Seawall but don't they wouldn't they have to add more to that seaw wall pull the cap off and lift lift it up higher not if it's within the 12in rule so what we did is we wanted to make sure that we didn't have that situation happen and we we kind of coined at the 12in rule that if somebody pretty much has a op if if they build a new home and there's a seaw wall there and you don't have the ability to raise it more than 12 in there's no point making somebody Elevate their seaw wall that much it's that's silly so essentially unless they can get a substantial change which which we deemed as over 12 in you could keep the seaw wall in that scenario and regarding the elevation 51 or or the elevation for the top of sea wall um that would still have to be that would again be the goal and there are a lot of places to where if your finished floor is not 51 you wouldn't even be able to get that high because we want to make sure that we still provide positive drainage so that'd be a scenario to where um you know again there there are a lot of codes out there now all the codes right now when you go up and down the coast and you look at them they all say seaw wall elevation five and this is an but but there's no seaw walls at elevation five because they can't be so essentially what happens is that each individual building department has to kind of make up their own rules as they go and be okay well the code says five but we can't put it in five so we just have this internal rule of thumb that we used and we try to be consistent of how we admin Minister it and what this allows us to do is this allows us to say we we're going to have five we know that we can't get five and here's the here's pretty much what we're looking for in order to maximize your seaw wall height so what we're giving the business Community is pretty much like more predictability and so you know exactly what you have to do and it's not something to where you're just kind of guessing with what review you're going to get because again that the elevation five of seaw wall look at look at all up and down the coast I I mean hell you have some you have some codes that say um that your seaw wall has to be lower than the center line of the roadway but no one builds it like that and that's where you know a lot of these codes it's what the code says and there's what the real world world allows and essentially what this manual does this manual says okay this Blends the code and the real world because it recognizes that we can't just say it will be a number because that wouldn't work and then we got to go ahead and we got to step things down yeah I'm not I'm not the expert I just think that there's just an easier way than the manual and but anyway I'm I'm listen sorry anyway we're having a good discussion here and we've heard that and we've asked the technical community and I get there's not there's just not man and that's why that's why people are looking at this are like that's pretty cool what Char R's doing because this so even you said well even you said yourself that was if you could when with regard to the seaw wall if you can make a meet a particular goal you didn't say that it was whether I could meet a an actual guide not a guideline but an actual Mandate of a certain height and that's that's where I think there's this mix there's there's so it's so mixed up because you have this manual that has goals and yet what's underneath it is a codification that you must raise to a certain height in order to meet meet those goals so why can't everyone be on the path of let's try to make and meet the goals that we're trying to meet over these many decades in the future without putting undue burden on people today but the burden the thing is that if if if this doesn't move forward which again this this may not move forward moving forward without this is not a no cost option I mean the bill the bill will come due at some point in time whether it's today tomorrow 2070 and the bill will get bigger as more homes are built at the same elevation they are today well I'm not proposing that we build homes at the same elevation that let's be clear I I am all for Phil elevating but you want to give people the ability to do the same damn thing and I just so I don't think we can have that I'm going to sure I follow we're talking about an ordinance not a guideline right it's an ordinance okay so you're going to force people to do a certain thing and it's going to cost a lot of money okay different than forcing they have to have the bottom floor at a certain height yeah there's a cost of doing that that too this is just another yeah example and to a couple things I you know you know again passing this is is not a no cost option you're just deferring costs down the road right and if if we and and when we talk about good design principles I work in the public sector I've worked in the private sector when I work for a governmental client the goal is always long-term end of life cost and pretty much you're looking forward for the constituents yeah and I when I have worked and I don't do it anymore when I work to develop a 7-Eleven it is cheap as you can instead of putting an inlet you grade over land you pretty much minimize everything you can so from a but that as an engineer Justin you got to admit you have to train these people well I mean when you just said that about private individuals go as cheap as you can that is absolutely absolutely incorrect I trained my clients I made them do it right and we need to make these people do it right but instead of saying oh you got to do it apply to the the smartness the in the intelligence of people and you know what I'm trying to do and I think what we ought to do from here is let uh Justin finish's presentation I have a bunch of conditions that I've written down here and we need to move forward sometime today where we make a recommendation to the city Commission of a motion to deny you know we recommend denial with this or we may um make a uh recommendation of approval with certain conditions so really I think what we need to do or can't we give advice on how to go forward those are conditions those are two well okay those are the conditions I want to put out yeah Chris I sat down and I just wrote a bunch of conditions because I was hearing from a bunch of people oh I can't afford to raise my house like a lot of people they don't want to jack up their house but they say they can't afford to put two feet of fill underneath it my answer to them was no dirt's cheap but then you're getting a bunch of these other items that are added in on it like you know new seaw walls new docks retaining walls on and on but this all of those can be defeated if you design it properly but anyway but this group could could make a decision to recommend to the city council that they go forward try to to fill ordinance of that doesn't require a Terrain modification program that is putting undue burden on the city as well well that and that's where we're going what I recommend that we do at this point so we can get out of here sometime today is let Justin finish his uh presentation we have more discussions because we will but what I want to see is what people's conditions they want to see and I have a bunch but I'm not going to bring them up right now because I want Justin to finish his presentation so go ahead Justin all right now we get to the good part yeah yeah okay so so what we're showing here is that you know we talked about the the range of of prices that we can see um and actually you know so so these prices I I worked with a contractor um he's he's building a home over in cosway Al right now so this is like real world stuff it's what's the name of the contractor what name of the contractor uh SDF Contracting thank you so Sean fernald so good guy um so anyway so you know these are you you know pretty much what what we're doing is we're looking at okay what are the costs in order to incorporate terrain mod all right we have you know we recognize that there is there's going to be a design cost to where um you know there is going to be an element to where uh you know an architect or engineer will will likely say okay well if there's new requirements and I'm I'm going to want to get paid for that all right it's to be expected so um and then two we're also we also recognize that there's going to be the importing of dirt um you know kind of the spreading of the dirt the construction of retention walls in certain situations uh the construction of railing or like fall protection around around the property um other costs like driveways and all that that that's pretty much that's not included in this because that's more or less baked into just the the the structure cost itself so essentially what we have here is we have uh multiple scenarios we provided a new build scenario and a lift scenario and uh the reason why we say that is because we wanted to uh report the costs for train mod and then also uh let's say put them in comparison uh to to uh let's say what the percentage of the project cost would be where you know and um special flood Hazard areas that that's an important designation if you're in a coastal a or a vzone and you want a wall you ain't getting a wall you can't get a wall in a coastal a a v zone so you'll notice that you know a lot of the um a lot of the Lesser costs are for a coastal a or a v just because the fact that you just can't have a wall um by by Design and then also too um there's the recognition that not all properties will be able to achieve the goal and so obviously if you can't achieve the goal and you bring in less fill your cost should be less um so the the the first eight scenarios that is a new build and we more or less have the estimated cost you'll see that the estimated costs below for 9 through 16 which is a lift those costs are the same because really right like whether you lift your house or whether you uh build a new one a lot of the earth workor costs are going to be identical but what changes is kind of the percentage of the project cost so this is so so these is where this is where the numbers come into play um you know I think we've we've heard about the $200,000 mandate and this is kind of where this is kind of where it's coming coming from um and you know my my um my preference when I report these numbers I'd much rather tell y'all it'll be 200 and it come in at 125 okay um I don't want to sit up here and say oh it'll be 20 grand and then it comes in at 120 Grand so so I I am I am shooting to be on the conservative or the high side with these numbers um when we had a contractor Workshop to where we had contractors who work in the community come in here about the program um one of the contractors actually when they saw the picture on the top right they said Ah that's crazy that's going to be 50 Grand I was like well that's good to know because I priced it out at 200 so you know so there there are you know now that was one person um I I feel comfortable that these represent the higher end of what the cost would be for those various scenarios excuse me Justin in your estimated cost do you have any way to break out what the itemized costs are in other words what are the Consulting fees from the engineering and architecture versus the actual yeah I I mean I think I mean heck with I and and I can provide those but I think for like the for a retaining wall under 30 in I was like 120 a linear foot for a retaining wall between 30 and 5 feet I was 190 a linear foot I think for to bring in Phil we talked about about uh 85 85 a cubic yard to import and spread um I I I believe I put a 10% Like You know just just because kind of a um archaic rule of thumb for design is it's like 10% of construction so I threw a 10% design you know recognizing that so just as a general convention I can look at those estimated costs and figure that 10% of that value is going to the engineer and architecture do I understand that the way that I prepare the numbers yes okay thank you yeah and and just so everybody knows I do not Design Homes in the city so let's just make that abundantly clear I do not and I will not Design Homes in the city nor do I have sister company that does that so correct me if I'm wrong but the way I would interpret number two there which is in the AE and it's a new build and that's the high one obviously it's a lot of money even though you're putting up multi-million dollar home it's a fairly added 8% is an pretty high added cost that home was elevated to the level that it could probably to the max within meeting the goal the Mandate it was raised to the to the mandate if you will for lack of a better term to the code level and that's why it required those retaining walls so what this means is like take the out of Palms which is all pretty much AE I think most of those streets if someone does a new a new build and this is put into place as a codified plan it's going to require that new build to have pretty close to that kind of cost because you're going to be allowed to raise this home call it 2 3 ft on on the lower level it's going to require those retaining walls require potentially seaw wall change or am am I missing something because that the majority of the the homes in the AE Zone you're going to force them to go pretty high well so so the majority of homes in the I I can't make that much of a u let's say um statement for all the homes yeah because I don't know lots SI you know again Palms is relatively you know so so there's kind of two Palms you got the Palms on the finger got the interior Palms um you know the interior Palms is going to be a bit more challenging those lots are a lot smaller so likely you're not going to see that because you know but out on the fingers you got 70 feet of of width there's a lot of coal you could probably so yeah on and on the fingers we do have in Palms we have Coastal a and a v that goes right there's a v out on the end so so and those people would be you know so more or less the homes on the tips would really probably be uh would be number one which would be about the 2% of the four Fourth Street is of Palms through 8th Street is of Palms you're talking about 195 193,000 typical cost like for this assumes that they hit that 7.6 and this assumes the lowest Road elevation I can find on that roadway okay so that's that's the level we're talking about here okay thank you so 8% 8% of the project cost so yeah and you know the the% to 8% when it was a big home like that if I had raised just a ranch up and did a single story that wasn't as expensive that would be more like 20% how much lifting has been done in this city is is there a lot of that going on right I mean over the last 10 I mean prior to prior to this when it comes to the actual house lifting and and I've driven run bike golf cart this entire Island I have never seen one home that went through the lift process there was one that I knew that we knew there's two on the Sunset Beach I would say there was that one or two that were down there and then Hendrick was about to do it well Hendrick's in the process of doing it there's some going on right now I know so then two B there two houses one on 85th and one on East Bay that have been raised and they were raised a long time ago long time ago and uh like one of them at the corner East Bay in um um 85th it's at the lowest point in damn near in Treasure Island I mean it's one of the lower points than uh Sunset Beach and he had 6 feet of water in his garage and did not suffer a bit of damage Catherine will probably tell you that there's two dozen plus permits probably for hous right now yeah I I guess I mean just yeah I was just trying to count the demo permits that's what I was doing but for some unknown reason they mixed up the interior demo and the Demos in the wrong category so I had to I'll have to manually count those out but we have a lot a lot we have a lot of demo permits and we have a lot of lifting permits lot of lifting per really okay on that note Katherine what are the number of actual repair permits that have been approved at this point that's why I'm H that's what the problem is is the repair permits are in the full demo category in the intergov so I'm I I have to manually separate those out so I can't answer that question like starting to get off the subject a little bit but it's an important we did have that in the presentation last night so let me see if I can pull that up okay thanks you know I just look at that and there could be those families that are out there that are younger that may not be multi-billionaires that put every dollar that they have or a construction loan to to get a brand new elevated house yeah and maybe 800,000 and maybe they would be okay with not being 2 feet higher and adding additional cost them could be a burden in regards to them hug completing their project I know that I I get it if you're going to build your house up in the air but when it does come with an extra cost it can impact especially the people that aren't you know printing money well the one thing is uh Ross I've heard all the additions but when it comes down to dirt dirt dirt is cheap it's $300 per dump truck load and there's an outfit because I caught them up to find out what Hendrick would have to spend to raise this house dirt only and it was 10 grand and you're right the problem is you got these other walls and everything do to meet mandated goal yeah but the thing is uh Chris if you design your house properly you do not have to build retaining walls you do not have to raise your seaw wall you do not have to build a new dock you can do it without doing all that you might have to make a sacrifice a different way and we'll get into that okay that's one of my isue I guess okay that's one of my conditions yep you know that's where we're starting to get into conditions what I want to do is Justin go ahead and finish your presentation we're going to have a lot of discussion but I really want these guys we need this discussion Big T I know but I want I want these guys all seven of us to come up with conditions that we can see fit for this thing and hey then we'll make a recommendation what it's going to be I can't tell you right now but go ahead Justin okay you I mean yeah just say that I think we're kind of having the discussion now well um the only thing I agree we we just need to really quickly hit on the ordinance changes because we're asking them to provide a resolution based on these ordinances like that's probably the most important detail that we need to cover today that we haven't talked about specifically yet okay so this is the suite of ordinances that would be changed um moving forward so what we've done is uh it's kind of highlight the the ones that are related to uh train modification are in blue um everything else is more or less uh either uh General cleanup or things that more or less were on the staff wish list to where they've wanted more clarity on certain subjects in order to provide that to the public uh chapter 75 Port ble sanitary again all all all this does is this really talks about mpds type stuff and it re and it removes uh some of the drainage references and consolidates all the drainage information into the new storm water section um the the stormm water so uh really right now the way the city's codes are set up is that uh storm water requirements are more or less kind of scattered throughout the entire uh ordinance document we've kind of tried to pluck all those out and let's say put them in a single chapter 76 storm water again in order to streamline how that information is presented uh to the to the business Community uh then this is pretty these are some of the new terms um that are that are in there and then um a lot of what we did with the storm water is uh we followed the Statewide storm water rule uh which is a new uh which is a a recently new mandate that the state passed um in order to require um water quality uh improvements and more or less have a performance-based versus prescriptive based storm water stor storm water design um and then to okay those some mpds stuff uh flood plane management um what we're doing is we are we are trying to simplify um you know simplify how this information presented um clarify some permanent application requirements and then also um uh reference back to the train modification manual again if anyone has questions please please um ask me and we can we can go back um uh what what we are you want to say something nobody oh sorry okay so uh where uh there there's also technical amendments within the building code and so what what we also had to do is make sure that chapter 8 and chapter 66 talk nice to each other and and do not contradict uh for um we also added some requirements regarding uh uh some some deletes since uh all this is handled within the train mod manual so we talked about the FBC um we have um uh you know we talk about perent design requirements uh again dry flood proofing the big thing here is dry flood proofing is still going to be permitted for the commercial properties uh you know to where we that is still an option that could be used within the coastal a and other areas uh you know and the coastal a Zone covers the large part of down town um and and we also are removing the requirements to have everything Beyond piles um we still think a lot of homes are going to be on piles just from a practical nature um but in theory there is an opportunity to use structural fill if somebody were to buy multiple lots and build a big structure structural fill could be an option so you know we we wanted to make sure that that wasn't um you know that that if the the space limitations or space allows for it that that it's why is isn't aren't pilings more desirable in terms of so what you know well so so from a structural fill standpoint you're you're really in a conventional lot you're not going to be able to use structural fill um but if you have somebody on Paradise who buys three of the internal lots that becomes more of a practical you know more more feasible so your code the way it was written before is that pretty much no M no matter what you're doing you're using pile and um you know we we think that because of the size the site limitations or let's say spatial constraints piles will still be needed and the Florida building code will essentially dictate that um we're we're just not saying you know we're just not saying that it has to be that way if structural fill is an option for your individual property is it less expensive than piles I think structural fill if you're able to use it you're spending some money on the on the front end you know in order to buy multiple Parcels um you know on on a on a oneto one if if you were let's say if you were Beque a home that could or bequeathed a lot that could do structural faill then yes it would be cheaper but but there's kind of that baked in cost to where you know it's it's hard to say as a blanket sa is cheaper when the caveat is yeah did you buy the two lots next to you as well so uh and then from a zoning regulation um you know one of the one of the points the LPA brought up early on um you know was about fencing Clear Sight lines um you know that that's where to where we we had to make sure that when we talk about fencing uh we recognize that um if we were to move forward with retaining walls and waterfront homes that uh we make sure that sight lines are maintained and right now you have a 4ot limitation within the Waterfront yard property and that 4ot is still holding true 4 foot then from the new elevation or from the existing so right now within the Waterfront yard which is like like almost like a waterfront setback if you will uh you cannot have any obstruction greater than four feet so I guess my question that I should revised it to say are we talking about the height of the existing seaw wall or like sea w a side or a fence I'm saying like in the back right the fence in that's on the side yard in the back but are we measuring from the location of the of the new seaw Wall height we're we're we're measuring from from the the natural grade or the neighbors's property if you will of the neighbor property yeah the lowest of the lowest of the two okay that so so if the person that builds this new home or raises their home and makes these modifications raises their seaw wall as a part of this mhm we would then be measuring that fence from the neighbors's seaw wall that would be lower the way it's where from from the the yard okay fine from the yard from the yard either way okay so the neighbor could have a 4ot wall when looking at the elevated house but the owner of the elevated house could have a twoot wall from their grass or one foot fence um can I explain this sa is but look I mean go back to you don't have to go back unended consequence here no that no this could I please explain this because we have actually written the code to deal with this so if you'll see that graphic that's up on the screen oops well it was on screen um it was on the screen for a moment are you talking about the pictures of those houses is that the graphic no no it's like a red and white graphic of a yard I we have it it's it's in our package yeah add oh sorry we don't have it so I'll print it for you and bring it to you later but meanwhile it's up on the screen so basically in that red area that new house that has lower people on both sides let's just assume that they're both lower okay and they're both the same lower because it's easier to think about um so say this yard is 2 feet above their yard so at the property line at the very outside of the re rectangle they are going to be limited to 4T from whoever's lowest which is what it is now right now you're limited to a 4 foot fence in the Waterfront yard but we realize that people have kids and pools and dogs and all kinds of things that they want to fence so the area that's shown in white up there you could have your 4 foot fence still you would just have a lower fence at the very perimeter if your neighbors were lower so we spent an inor amount of time trying to figure this out to make sure that the person who did not raise their house doesn't become in a cavern that they are still have their Waterfront view see while allowing the raised house that's a good way to do it I'm not sure I understand it from that do you the picture yeah and and of course I didn't put the picture there but so so there's a rendering that we because we wanted to make sure that obviously we want to avoid unending consequences and so the last thing we want to do is yeah there it is double fence basically or a double wall yeah and it's just pulled back so it's out of your neighbor's view water well then you're cutting your backyard off you're cutting off I mean I don't know like yeah explain that well you're cutting off the backyard like there there's Corners there's a there's a yes there's a pie that's just un inhibitable I mean there's no use for it unless you walk exactly it's a wasted piece of property oh I get it now I get what you did okay so what I'm I mean VI is to the person who doesn't build up that they're not becoming in a cavern with 8 foot walls all the way around them and they can't see the water anymore but then if they do build up then you could reset that right then everybody gets offense if everybody's High you know okay so so the the new the new house guy or girl builds that mhm and then you know puts money into making it what you guys are recommending per the manual and then a year this person next to it's like I hate this big house next to me I'm just going to sell they sell someone else comes and builds and like oh now I can build yeah now now I don't need the pie shaped anymore and I'm going to pay to rip it out because the other neighbor is going to have well he's going to probably put his 4 foot fence in cuz now he can so that's what practically that's what would happen here I I had thought about this but gosh it just goes to show a lot of different next time you're out golf then then it has to be done in a way that you know you don't pretty much take somebody's sight lines so if if we use Phil we talk about unintended consequences and having regulations this is why Yep this is why or or we don't use Phil and we keep on doing what we're doing well honestly I compliment this aspect of it I mean we there you know when we talk about unintended consequences me we spent hours and hours and hours sitting down looking at the code thinking about all this stuff and and that's why you know I'm you know when you look at this this works this did you get any feedback from like a seaw wall Builder or contractor in regards to what other options there could be in regards to Bringing fill in without all these other manual pieces to it because according to seaw wall contractors and builders that I've talked to that there's ways to do it without putting all this additional if since I told you m oh sure Gibson Marine Edge Marine construction Gibson Gibson was here the meeting yeah we've talked to them yeah we' talked to them oh and he tells me exactly how frustrated he is I now now he's frustrated because you can't bring in Phil okay no seaw wall contractors have told us for years told me I don't know what they told anyone else but they told me that they want this program and I said please come to the meetings please speak up the con the The Architects the owners there are people hendrik for instance who everyone knows wants to bring four variances to the pnz to use Phil there's actually there's actually house on Palms uh the McCoy McCoy's the Builder he's already sent us plans because they're like yeah the owners want this when what the hell is going on why are you not going forward so the thing is that I think for every negative thing we hear we we know there are people who want this you know they're not here they're not here behind us and I know that doesn't do much to any you know for everybody but we know the people out here cuz they reach out to us and you know if we ask them to come to meet at 2 o'clock they're like I'm sorry I work yeah so um they can send you an email or something though right and says that I'm all for this well I me is is that is that going to be is there a certain number of emails we need to get the program to go I would like some feedback from those but I will tell you right now that fence P that fence picture scares scares me yeah well and and I get that but scares me but the option is that either we take the sight lines or we don't use Phil right I mean well now here's the new one so I would disagree is that that particular example really showed going to the max going to the Mandate that they were able to do on that particular lot which is typically what would happen like an Isa Palm's finger or an Isa Capri finger I if it wasn't a mandate that Builder likely would have gone well maybe not that would have gone but not nearly that much to require that level of construction around having extra retaining walls and now a cut off on back part of the backyard for Sight lines yeah they there would have been more flexibility but the code forced him in this case to go all the way I apprciate you doing that by way I appreciate you guys dra that up I appreciate we thought about a lot so I mean no one likes FEMA right but the the same could be said for what FEMA requires FEMA requires you to go in theity it's next probably do like it it probably looks weird next to it until it goes up I mean it's just it's not ideal but there's a future that you're planning for but Stacy FEMA is not making us do that's correct this lower level R they're not no they're not but our comp plan and as Engineers when we're designing storm water systems within this community we have a responsibility to make sure that we can drain our roads and we should have those goals in mind and move forward with go we're going to have to start planning and and saving up for St what we're going to have to do without without this requirement you have to start planning for massive numbers of pump stations and and there's specific areas through the city that you need to start that and you know there there's you know the one thing to is not a you know just the reality is that there's not a zero cost option you know what I'm saying like like it's it's there's not a zero cost option it's really about who pays do we pay rat well we know who pays it's us it's us as the property owners that pay that's the question do you pay now you pay in 10 years do you pay in 20 years but the owner are going to pay so the debate or we just don't do it so the debate is how we get there no yeah and and the Practical part of this and and the burden that we would put on people in the in the very early stages of this when we're talking about a hundred-year program yeah I mean versus versus to where you know and and I think kind of as we see if a home gets built now now essentially um there is a slide do you mind going back to the one to where there's a scenario to where if we do have people choose then there could be you a a collective of people who who don't like the who don't want to do it and they choose not to elevate and they choose to be a grade and then essentially now the citizens are forced to kind of say okay well we our hands are tied here now we got to look at a storm water pump station just because these five people made that decision and is Palms is really so that's why I'm concerned about the early part of this I'm sorry for having to voice all this but it's just it's so important well the thing is so we're talking about elevating if we're elevating a home in a Palms today yeah and it's going to cost $400,000 to do it right okay that's a lot of money but you're going to add another 150 to 200,000 to that cost because we're now we're now going to be forced to raise it up raise up that lower level now it's not a it's not even a 10 8% like you showed up there or even 16 or 20% now on an elevated home that's going to require this with the way it's written right now you're talking about 150,000 on 400,000 it's a 30% increase in the cost of elevating a home on Isis of palms or on Capri I that is unacceptable on so many levels Justin how much time you need left oh sorry you don't have a l no yeah I mean chapter 69 finish your presentation I mean my parents won't leave my kids right they won't do that well finish finish your presentation address right because what I want to do here is I want to take a I want you to finish your presentation I want to take a five to 10 minute break and then we'll come back have a little discussion Sor he doesn't yeah we don't need a break they probably need a break it's like a car right yeah now go ahead all right I'll just um it's 4:30 or less go to start there okay so we talked about seaw walls um you know again the one thing is that um we talked about the 12in rule to where essentially we wanted to make sure that we didn't you know in order to avoid unintended consequences that we don't have a situation that essentially forces a homeowner to rebuild her seaw wall for like two inches because that really doesn't fundamentally change anything and so that's where this 12in rule comes into play is that we made sure that if a homeowner elevat this home and they reach the the the base floor goal that they can get to and they don't have to elevate their seaw wall more than 12 in to meet those requirements they're good to keep that as it is um Sor right could they go seaw wall first and then build the house like if they say I'm going to build a seaw wall to X will you guys sign off on it and then I'm going to come back and build the house afterwards so they could but the thing is that if if they're building based of so because we want to maintain the relationship between the seaw wall and the finished floor of the home they can certainly do that but they may only be able ble to get to a certain point you know because we're not going to let them because nobody lets you up and down the coast go higher than your finished floor so essentially if if somebody does that what happens if it's a dirt lot what happens if the house is demoed so so if it's a dirt lot and they're able to meet those requirements there there there could be a path for that you know there I I I just can't say I know I just I'm looking at Katherine and staty I'm just I mean and you as well I'm just okay because I just know that there's a lot of people out there that bulldo their house they're doing plans they're you know that just don't want them to be stuck in the carry on sorry Richard so could they build a seaw wall on a dirt lot at the max is that the question and then build the house afterwards but the max would still have to work with the grading of the dirt lck they would just have to do the engineering to know where their finished floor of their house is going to be well God knows my next door neighbor did it so it can be done okay come on and I'll show it you engineer both of them even though you were only doing one of those okay okay and then um okay there were some updates that we did to to the um uh since since the draft version that that you mentioned as far as um is because we've had I think the first draft was about in December when we first came came to the uh came to the LPA and this is kind of a summary of some of the tweaks that that we've made throughout throughout that process um from from program permitting um you know there is going to be you know these some of these things are already required or the staff has been wanting them kind of codified in order to make sure that when we talk about a drainage plan and all that kind of stuff well what kind of drainage plan and um to you know there there's you know we we certainly we want to make sure that when we say we want something we say exactly what we want and we provide the necessary level detail so another design professional um has Clarity on on the approach we're going to take uh okay then common misconceptions um again you can kind of read over those I think we've kind of hit on these organically throughout the process um and then so the so these are possible next steps um you know kind of moving forward I think the you know the um as as Richard mentioned um I think the goal of today is in order to get the rec a recommendation some way from the yeah we'd be taking the recommendation back to commission um in January regardless of what that is for their discussion and there's a chance that we could put something together send it up there and they could be like nope we're not going to do that we'd rather do this good we're just making a recommendation we're not we're not the governing body here on this February or March oh yeah I'm good and with with with the size of the program and recognizing the Big Chain that's why we felt it was so important to do this and I know we're about a year in and so we certainly hope that we've given yall all the detail you know that that you need and you know if there's any questions we're certainly here to try to try to answer those so Comm commission one first reading is January 7th potentially commission two the 20 or the second reading of program does that mean the F it goes to vote January 21 so they they directed staff to to bring this to LPA and back before them as written and so that's what we would bring back before the commission [Music] whatever your recommendation so they may say no we don't want to hear this tonight because the LPA recommended something else and we want revisions or they could say yes we we see these recommendations but we want to go forward with the program as written and adopt these ordinances so that you know we can you know give people permits who've been looking to do this for quite some time okay and then there's potential for the commission having a change in guard on a couple of seats in is that March would that be the March March three three seats yes so Justus are you done four oh four wow no I mean now now discuss questions I need a 5 minute break yeah so do I so we'll be back at I'll go with you according to my phone it is 4:33 we will reconvene at 440 yes okay e e e e e e e e e e e e we will call the meeting back to order and I want to start it off with being brutally honest by let's put this way I have a relationship with some of the Commissioners and what they said to me and I'm just going to say it outright all right we need to fire Justin and advance engineering we need to fire Stacy and we need to hire kimley horn because kimley horn said in front of everybody that they could get a fill ordinance done in three months is that true no it's not but kimley horn will say what they want to say I said it kimley horn has reviewed this program and has agreed with it and has recommended it to adjacent communities I have been told since I am blew in the face that kimley horn could get it done well I used to work with kimley horn they were one of my competitors I don't think they can get it done it's done it's done right now I mean we got it done no I'm talking about having a fill ordinance in place could they do it in three months in three months not an ordinance it's a program of ordinances yeah and a manual I just want to make that clear it's not one ordinance CU I keep hearing that we just need a fill ordinance that's not a thing actually it keeps coming back and say no all we need is to get rid of that non import of fill ordinance in treaser island and and say say yeah we can have you can import structural field and as an engineer you understand that that's not feasible is I correct hey let's feel this way I was involved in the plan development ordinance and people saying on the misinformation on Sunset Beach saying oh yeah with three votes of the commission we're going to have seven story buildings uh down here on Sunset Beach which of course was an absolute lie but it kept me off the commission for uh ever because I'll never be on the commission there's a lot of it was a lie and uh I'm just hey I'm saying that's what people are saying that there's a third option there's a lot of there's the Deni the first option is total deny of this second option is the approval third option is okay y'all are all fired and we'll hire kimley horn and I want to know if that's even reasonable so option two is that what I'm hearing you say you know or is this a nice way to fire me so hey l'sen feel this way I didn't make this stuff up I'm only repeating what I heard and quite far ly over the last year I've heard about all this and ad nauseum my main question is after what we went through with hurricane Helen Milton wasn't a big deal for me why would you ever wanted to go through that again I mean is this for uh is this for major storms of course it's not is it for sunny day flooding I don't think quite frankly sunny day flooding won't be bad in my lifetime I don't have kids either either so it won't be uh bad enough for me to be hurt in my lifetime but it definitely would have helped with these with this storm well there I always used to hate it when people would say oh it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when well yeah I kind of hat hated to hear that but it finally became when it came so with that I'm just looking for suggestions on uh conditions that any of these board members might think that we could move forward with a recommendation to approve this ordinance without the you know with with conditions that y'all would be agreeable with I wish we had a whiteboard right here right here we can write a couple of those things down you know that well I will list out my conditions but is anybody else who wants to I have a pen and paper right in front of me I'm good I can write down so the all right why don't you scribe for us if that's all right does anybody else want to start or you want me to start I'll I can start say if you don't think that title base flooding is an issue in some parts of the city today I invite you to go sit up with our Public Works office manager Penny clipple and answer the phone calls during those title events because it is a problem in areas today and and the problem areas are getting larger so I'm I'm happy that it's not a city-wide problem today but but it is a problem we keep no wake signs down in parts of Sunset Beach to put out um so that when people drive through those areas are not pushing water up into people's homes and and I'm not trying to was already a foot deep where you're talking about so that was at noon on September 26th and all I could say to my wife was oh thank God we're leaving and but that is exactly where you're talking about it's the corner of 8 in East Bay yeah East Bay that's one of the areas I would say you asked how often it's happening it's not just Sunset um but that is where the majority of the areas are I would say um not including like the the tropical storm and the noname storm type of events that we've had I would say maybe five or six times a year yeah I was going to say at least quarterly yeah yeah but Chris you said you had some conditions hit us with them and we'll go through everybody at the table and I want to hear all your conditions which make would make this pal to you guys go for it Chris yeah not well not to word Wordsmith it because I don't think we can obviously do that in this Arena um I would like to find a find a way where this board can up can make a recommendation to the commission to move forward with a Terrain modification program and to adopt a manual that does not have have a codified or mandated requirement for the first living level not not first living level but the first level for how long of that structure forever uh and that and and that within the language of the that it would allow designers to do and or owners to have the maximum that they can obtain on their lot but not to force them to that maximum and again I'm not using probably the correct wording in any way I'm not trying to Wordsmith I'm it's really more the idea that we cannot have this mandate for that first floor I think the last part of what I discussed of us elevating a home and it costing 200,000 extra to meet that elevated mandate for that lower lower level is unacceptable so how do we do this without it being a what how do we do this where you can it's a May if you will to go as high as reasonable as what the code or what the conditions will allow but not force that property owner to go to the maximum level allowed withinin the guideline you then obviously the way you're talking you recognize that uh on many many Lots in uh Treasure Island that you can't get to 76 of course yeah that's that's why I'm not trying to in many cases in many cases you're going to be at the I want to go 12 in and actually I can only go 12 in that's all I can get within the program guidelines I don't want it to be where the program guidelines force me to 3 feet when I only want to go a foot and a half and there's I think there's it's not just cost it's also you know other parameters around what a property owner wants and their property rights to do what they want with their property and where they're not adversely affecting the community um so how we do that I'm not entirely sure because all right we got your first another have that first mandate I mean to take out that part of the Mandate okay I just want to collect all first and then we'll disc that's it really otherwise I'm all for the program all right who else has got a condition I will go ahead Grant I think that there should be an exception um like we did the the six months or the one year for those folks uh uh raising their homes um I think there should be an exception if it's going to be a mandate I think there should be an exception for folks who are storm damaged currently and either rebuilding or going up there should be an extended period of time which um they are Exempted from this code so we looked at that because we kind of felt the same way like could that be done and you know feel to feel free to jump in but what we came up with is you still have to go back and build that no fill pathway into the codes to allow for that option to happen the other alternative to that to could be that the commission adopts the program as is but sets an effective date that's 6 months or whatever into the future and that way if someone wanted to submit a permanent application between now and X date because they don't want to use Phill then they could take advantage of that you're still not necessarily meeting the storm water objectives which was what this was built for is trying to capture all of that as places are redeveloping um and you're not allowing for people to use Phill now who want Phil now but that kind of gives a window in for people to that effective date would that be an effective date to where people could use it if they wanted to up until that certain timeline I don't see how that's possible yeah about to say it'd be like a it'd be pretty much it'd be effective this date you can't use up until then yeah but what happens if someone sorry good call out by the way that would bother me then that the idea that they couldn't use Phil if they elected to do that they get their permit in by X date does that count yeah I mean that's the point either it's the sliding scale of Phill it's just because it's not cuz I think any it's this what what the code saying now and the quickest thing is we got ordinances ready to go and it just so happens like it happened after you know after this storm that that you have all this stuff ready to go if we wanted to do this tiered approach we we'd have to go back and we'd have to pretty much like create almost like these Pathways to where okay if you take the no fill approach you know you adhere to pretty much like the current code as it is but if you you so so we'd have to go back and revise the ordinance to pretty much have like two building codes in one if you will for a comp which is I mean it's possible but it's you know just going to take some time it's just and cost how long are you talking about Grant uh I guess it really depends upon when the clock starts so if it if it's going to take a year to get a permit then a six-month moratorium doesn't do much good if I submit a permit to lift my house now and I get and it's going to take a year to get a permit then it's got to be a year so okay say a year from the hurricane well not sure what the clock let me kind of caveat that just I mean you make whatever recommendation you want but I just wanted to say is permits are typically and this is how we treat everything they are under the code under which they are submitted so if you're submitting within 6 months or you're submitting within a year so if you would make that recommendation for the submitt rather than getting the permit because you know some permits go through the first time some permits come through five times before they get it right so submitt date I think is what all I'm asking is that that would be the qualifier if you want to qualify and I would defer to your feedback on how long it would effectively take to educate the municipality about the requirements Associated for this if everybody can be notified and educated within a three-month period then three month if it takes six months then six months I'm just not sure how long something like that takes such that everybody can be notified and one thing I would recommend is um there there may be people in this situation that we've all talked about today who are you know they can barely afford to to elevate their house and they can't afford to to put Phil under it um but you know they may be using information that they've been told or information from these slides which may be conservative and I would highly recommend that anyone who thinks that they don't want to do it to at least get some estimates to look at the manual and to see what it would actually cost because it may may very well be a lot less than whatever they had in mind especially on the small Lots especially on the small Lots where they're very very constrained and a lot you've got to consider that you know the most damaged part of our city is Sunset Beach and Sunset Beach has very small Lots so they are going to be really constrained in how much fill they can bring because the of the lot area well the interior Lots one way to get around that is if you are in Sunset Beach and you're planning to to redevelop and you know that your neighbors are too maybe you do that in conjunction with each other so that you can bring up the area at one time that's something that we've looked out as well to be able to get more I'm just struggling here struggling to understand why it can't we can't have the word May in front of this lower level mandate which goes appreciate that Chris let's get the other conditions I want keep keep the conditions going I'm going to do it last so y'all go ahead I got I got a bunch of conditions some of them make absolutely no sense qualifi for me on on drainage regardless of the height we're not going to get around any drainage we got to stay close to this drainage this year what's going to happen that was the whole purpose really really concerns me you you mean like future storm water level service and you know you lift your house what about my two neighbors what about My Neighbor Next Door moves his house up and all of a sudden I'm getting all this crap what are we doing for the overall that ain't going to happen if you follow my conditions I'm going to go ahead and get into my conditions cuz nobody well give me a condition U Gary Gary by the way yeah I know I almost call she call you Chris sorry I just want to get that in my mind I put that out there anyway to Marvin anybody else have a condition um I would say's going to drain I agree let's try it going optional but maybe we sunset this after two years and we review because some people are going to do it so let's see how the man I mean I think the manual is good you got you have to have the manual but let's review I don't know if it's two period two years three years or whatever IDE let's re you know let's review every new home built and you guys would make a presentation at the end of two or three years so we still have to have a code for them to follow Yeah the code just has to be has to say do as much as you can with it what or sorry reverse you you that you're just not mandated by that part of the code but they're saying it's takes to long if you want to raise your base what what we were told you know by or directed by commission is that this way because quick hurry up and so we want this if we go back and have to revise ordinances that's that's where the that's where the time comes in but but it is an option so all just doesn't meet this the commission said quick hurry up yeah interesting get it done in 3 months who what's it doctor kep telling the weekend he's the mayor said that Richard yeah me who said who told you that John doctor that kimy horns told him that yes in front of the whole commission the Bob Min said are y'all going to do this for me and he said yeah we'll do it for you I don't know what that is well if we're talking about when the commission asked if it's possible to do a a no fill ordinance it was not said that it could be done in 3 months and it was not said that's not what they said you mean I'll be happy to pull up the minutes of the meeting but that is not what was said at that meeting you mean optional fill not a no fill an optional fill no a fill ordinance a allow talk has to leave is that other pathway that goes into the code which say if you want to use Phill you follow the criteria that we've laid out and if you don't want to use Phill this is that other pathway and it it builds into the program and into the requirements and it takes time it's not a word that's what we're talking about I think yeah no I mean that's and and that's what it have to be is that we would have to create okay so when you're designing a storm water you know when you're designing storm a storm water system for a commercial development okay we have to have kind of two tiers of design requir right because we can't pretty much say okay if you opt in here's your requirements here if you opt out here's your requirements here um if if we talk about I apologize um if if we're talking about a a single family home um obviously you know so the storm War requirements would essentially be identical um but but we we would essentially need to have a code in place that that covers the optional or the sliding scale alternative and right now the manual and all that it doesn't read like that so it I mean so it can be done it's it's pretty much a but you would only go you would only go to that manual if you're going to use Phill yeah yes but no but but also there's the sliding scale that we were talking about so there's two optionals there's no fill or fill and then there's no fill kind of fill the fill that we're talking about so there's there's almost like three options if you want to do that and that's where it's it's not a you know certainly I understand how we would all want this to be simple but the reality is that when you're when you're trying to review a plan and try to make sure okay well what code am I reviewing this under there has to be a code to do it it can't be um you I it has to be law and you know in order to review I would rather personally either yes or no you you have the option but and then we evaluate after so many years two years three years okay we got that condition anybody else have any conditions before I get into mine because I want to get into mine I really appreciate all's time again I'm I'm sorry I have to leave early thank you sir all right kids come first great Pres thank you very much okay I we have two conditions out there so far I got six all right first one no new seaw walls will be required as part of the ordinance no new seaw walls the reason behind that is if you cannot afford to build a seaw wall which is expensive you can Sid slope your uh from your top of your seaw wall up to whatever elevation you need to be at a 4:1 slope can be done you just s it and hold it there so no new seaw walls are required this is ridiculous uh condition but I'm going to include it cuz I kept hearing about it no new docks are required you can have a couple of steps down uh to your dock as after you uh if you raised your seaw wall I did it for 20 years I had two steps down can we clarify there is no M dock I in here I'm just including this okay I got hit with this stuff regularly I just want to be cleared for the for the board there's nothing about putting a new dock in so the estimates the estimates he gave us included raising the seaw walls yes raising the seaw the $200,000 included a new dock no I don't think that's a the the individual who gave me $200,000 that keeps getting passed around the city said oh I have to have a new dock so can I clarify that there is a non City generated 20 $100,000 estimate exactly that estimate is in a vzone and includes retaining walls which cannot be built it includes a new dock which has nothing to do with this I agree with you that I'm just including it to uh and more so was Jess's estimate up here not correct no these estimates are fine but that was that was 198,000 193 193 sorry 1833 all I'm saying is what Richard is addressing is not is nowhere asked for in this I said that some of these conditions were not were not all right but I think it's great to have your conditions but let's base them on like factual information and not just like what people are saying that unb information flying around this city was one indiv they thought the city was going to charge a $200,000 fee to raise your house well it says it on his present Jess's presentation it said new build a Zone 7500t lot size like an is of Palms lot $193,600 this one it also says 98,000 I mean there's a range of values there though right oh right I'm just saying on the upper end right yeah that's question about where they got the number but Richard talking to the kind of terrain that's is somebody else's estimate that's being passed around that um was based on their site which is completely not following any of the prescriptive measures within the manual and is including additional costs which aren't contemplated under this program and the idea is to drive the cost up and anyway there's another young lady down on Sunset Beach goes what I'm trying to raise my house the city's going to charge me 200 Grand to do this and I said no don't be ridiculous anyway to get more into my conditions no rate retaining walls required the city should not require retaining walls CU you can grade every lot out there that you don't need them and it it requires some sacrifices but you can't have the requirement number four signed and seal drainage plans required for every lot it's required now but I want it included as a condition because the biggest thing is I hear is oh I'm going to get flooded out by my neighbor not if you build your house right I mean let's put this way I live next door to a huge house now I give them credit they did uh put in swes it does not drain on my property uh or the other property so it can be done without retaining walls uh just going to require you to have a bigger side yard setback quite frankly uh fil the next one fi dirt structural and non-structural will be allowed into the city of uh Treasure Island say that last one no build dirt structural and non-structural will be allowed to be imported into Treasure Island back on your retaining wall that that I think that becomes more of an issue with these homes that are elevated where you can't change that that change the dimensioning for the setback and it's going to in order to meet the Mandate that's being put forth here by this plan will end up requiring retaining walls for those homes that are elevated but hear me out Chris the minimum setback is 7 and 1/2 ft in your neighborhood you don't have to have a 7/2 ft setback you could have a 20ft setback and have plenty of swes you could have a 20ft setback but not a but now you end up with a smaller house you're elevating a house you can't shrink the house and that's another problem that's a big problem hey let's feel this way I just want I just I'm just trying not to create problems here which is require the retaining walls but the the cor are is you got to have have a signed and sealed grage plan that shows that you're not going to dump it on uh your neighbor and if you can't prove that then you probably going to have to have a retaining wall my my point exactly exactly so it's not I'm just saying hey you don't have to do retaining walls you don't have to you could tear down your house and build a new uh new house and then put in a nice big uh 4 to1 size the way this is written if you elevate the house they're going to force you by code to go as high as the the code requires on that elevation of that first level and to do that and meet the drainage plan that's required for it you'll end up with retaining walls on all those homes no you're not you know I mean so here here we're talking about so Richard you just talked about side slopes there's there's different criteria for side slopes and those are FEMA mandated um and also when you talk about the the Mandate of the the goal it's it's required that you try to meet the goal but the goal is unique per site and if you can't meet it you can't meet it and it steps down and that's how it works so the the goal isn't mandated the requirement to try to achieve it is the requirement to try to achieve the goal correct anyway okay I going into my last requirement no Road improvements are included in this ordinance I know that it is the need and the and the want to improve roads and while we're doing it let's raise them if we can but what scared everybody and said holy crap we're going to have a $250 million mandate on this city and so conditionat that's the way it would come out too I know but uh we uh the roads W not happen in our lifetime except for some repairs provided was there damage to roads that happened during the storms of course there was probably more damage with all dump trucks running up and down if you can uh raise them a little bit couple inches three 6 Ines whatever it was the city doesn't have $240 million laying around it's not going to happen in our lifetime so let's just make I'm being overly obvious some of re by doing this we're taking out the city's requirement to meet the elevation goals of this plan hey let's put this way I'm I'm talking about roads right now I know you are I'm so I'm I'm just trying to be straight up that if if we put that condition in it can changed we could always put it back in you cannot budget so if you can do something that you don't have the money for right and this city doesn't have squat and and neither do the residents of Treasure Island that are trying to repair their homes they don't have the money for this either so if we're going to take out the Mandate for the city let's take it the Mandate out for the residents and we'll put a proposed condition in here that you don't have to raise your elevation if you don't want to well that bottom level period the one thing that I did hear from Marvin that I kind of really liked was the idea of a moratorium for two years the trouble is of course is the guy and quite frankly it's like buying I had one person one time and I'm digressing said that Sunset Chateau was an ugly condo he want to tear it down I said sure that's easy to do buy every unit in it and then you can own the whole thing and do it the problem here is getting everybody on Fourth Street in Al Palms to raise your houses so you can raise the road it's going to be damn hard to do even by the year 2100 you know it is just it's hard to get it's going to be hard for the city to do and it's going to be hard for the residents to do it's hard to get us seven people to agree on anything yeah so for us to get all those anyway I agree with I think we should put the proposed condition as no New Roads I not required it's a goal we should work towards it could we speak to that this is a manual of how to do it and this any road project is budgeted and in the capital Improvement program and approved by the city commission no new road magically appears Catherine I I know that and you know that but the thing was the perception on this on the street was oh the city just put us under the obligation of a 250 million dollar expenditure that we can't afford so we're talking about a mile of a roadway at a time and that's how Justin priced it out but we've never constructed a mile of roadway in the city at one time it's done in segments as needed and if you're going to tell homeowners in Sunset Beach especially that you're not going to look at the opportunity to try to Source funding to spend an extra 15 20% on those small roads to get it up whatever 8 10 Ines which is going to make a dramatic difference in how they're able to drain storm water I mean that's just a hard thing to say look at it I me the this condition is to remove the image the idea that the city is going to go spend quarter of a billion dollars provided you're exactly right Stacy yeah let's go spend 20 grand and uh and grind down 85th and uh raise it a couple inches cuz that's what happened a couple years ago when uh the pump station was redone down no we haven't raised it it was it was ground down and repaid the city should have the city would have the option city has the option now to raise the roads they do not they do not we are not able to bring well they would if we had an ordinance that allowed it would be allowed to do it and we if we make it not mandatory that the city raise the roads then certainly don't make it mandatory on the property owners to raise their house make it a goal make it optional to go forward as fund is available that that was an option that we provided to the city Commission on December 3rd was to do that it cost more money in consultant time it costs more time for people to be able to do that but that is a pathway that can be built into this program of ordinances and manual we can do that if it takes more time then to do it right that's what we time it's money and it's not meeting the city storm water objectives so you do need to go back and and to reconsider that language in your comprehensive plan and your adopted uh watershed management plan because you're not meeting those objectives you can do it it can be done and we said it can be done that's what we should do if we're not teaching our kids how to do math right then we ought to change the way we're teaching them well hell man Retreat sounds real good to me I ain't going to be around but uh Richard can I get a question forgive me sure Grant jum trying to understand this from my naive and inexperienced view what you're proposing is a mandate that says if you're going to build you're going to have to bring in Phil and raise your home to a certain level correct is that what it is that's correct so F already requires you to lift it up this is adding a few feet of fill underneath your garage so we if any of you gentlemen have a home that doesn't have to be lifted up or have to be rebuilt there's no requirement for them to raise a house or to add this fill correct so this is for new construction elevation yeah only and elevation okay major construction that an owner chooses to pursue but let's put this way all due respect Chris I don't I don't share your spirit in people's willingness to do this voluntarily I I really feel that if there's a way to save money people are going to gravitate that way and if it's not required and if this is truly um an existential crisis down the road then I I think it has to be mandated that's that's my opinion to me storm water objectives it does it really like we need to start planning now so so before Amy Davis retired she set up in the budget a resiliency fund and it was to look at you know starting to elevate roadways if we're if we're not going to pursue that route we don't see the ability to really meet those goals and to elevate those roads we need to start saving money instead for those pump stations which is going to cost a lot more and the $250 million for the roads I know that's a a huge amount of money but I understand that that's over decades if I understood that it is and that's also factoring in the cost you would spend anyway to reconstruct the road well my question is too I mean it's $251 million homes that could be potentially lost or loss of their value if their value drops because of continual flooding so is that what the concern is is that the storm water that the high tides that the floods are going to become so extreme over the next 20 30 years that this is going to be a Miami Beach situation yeah so the concern is that this situation there was a map here this this is essentially what tropical storm Ada did it was right around this 4.1 ft of elevation this is like the daily twice a day high tide elevations you know 75 years from now and and it gets worse with time um so it's it's just twice a day you won't be able to to leave your home or to come home is and I you know and that's a projection uh moderate 75 years from now and hell we can't even get the weather right does is it going to rise sure is it going to rise that much I don't know I don't know you don't know either and the situation is is we need to do something now for the people that are going to tear down their homes and build new ones or the ones that are going to jack their houses up if you I kept hearing I kept hearing that the city of Treasure Island uh was going was trying to drive people out of their one-story homes that's absolutely not true FEMA's trying to do that but we need to do something for these people that want to raise well that's I propos the delay on this mandate but then if somebody buys out here or elects to to purch purch a lot or tear down a house out here then this is what they follow then you start to raise these things up I think it would be to use the term that I heard a little bit Draconian to impose this on people who' have just lost their homes they didn't buy out here and invest in their homes with this mandate in place I think it'd be unfair to impose that on them it'd be unfair to impose that on but for new purchasers new investors I think the sustainability concerns economically are something that have to be cons considered my home's very small it's probably not worth but a fraction of many of your owns but it's a substantial investment for me and if I can't get to it twice a day because of floods I don't think it's going to be worth 10 years what it's worth today yeah and I just if that's a legitimate concern and that's why this is coming about I think exact why I mean so this slide we didn't talk about this slide specifically today was in a previous presentation but you know we talk about projections and not knowing what to believe we do know that we have local gaug data that shows a 9 in increase in title elevations since the' 40s and and we are able to predict what the elevations look like shortterm a lot better than we are longterm and looking at you know less than 20 years from now having an additional 7 inches of Tide having those outfalls underwater is huge we have roads in Sunset Beach that are at 1.9 ft in a VD 88 elevation it's extreme we're seeing extremes it's my road you know okay it's gone up 9 in since 1940 so that's 80 years it's not linear though yeah no it's not it's May having you know a delay and maybe the delay of the Mandate for under this code I kind of like is a 10 maybe it's a 10y year allocation that's something reasonable in people's lives where you know things are going to turn over and gives more time to get this right I mean none of us bought our homes out here with this mandated place it's kind of it feels kind of rough to have it imposed on us yeah but I will say this Chris there is not one person who got flooded during Helen that built their house in The Last 5 Years that wishes they haven't W able to raise it a little bit my main thing when I heard this I want the I want the fill absolutely my main thing I want to be able when I heard about this was let's remove the prohibition of imported fill into Treasure Island that's the main thing we want to do with this it's got a lot of other baggage with it but that's not what we were directed to do we were directed to develop storm water program for the future and when we looked at the watershed management plan and we we went out and ground truth every Inlet in the city every outfall in the city we have liar up toate liar data we know what's happening with our drainage system and it's very easy to predict what's happening in the future we were able to go back and truth it based on some of the events that have happened here and run those scenarios to to validate our model that works um I don't I don't deny that you have to have a plan is the plan to leave is the plan to to construct pump stations or is the plan to when people plan to reconstruct anyway to put to put fill under their properties under their homes you have to have you just got to have some Grace within this way to do I agree with that I understand I I totally I totally get it and when we when we were told to do this when we were told to set out and make it happen we we thought that this would happen at some point in time because it's just a matter of probability we never thought that it would be happening now we never thought that we would be introducing this program at this time during this kind of Devastation it's terrible well the biggest problem I've run into lately Stacy and I am the recipient of a lot of phone calls and a lot of gossip and a lot of information misinformation is kimley horn can get this done in a matter of days the direct when you say I would love to to talk to that consultant because because we we know these Consultants very well and I I I don't think that they said you say you were told to go and do this who is who was that direction from I'm sorry when you were told who to go out and do this who was that direction from oh I have Commissioners yeah so if you look at the memo no it's fine I just the Commissioners obviously the commissioning situation maybe 15 different meetings that were held between the commission to to talk about the watershed management plan the recommendations to adopt that plan to allocate funding and accept grants to to develop the program I mean multiple times a year we've taken this back before public meetings and reconfirmed the direction that we were taking and the reason behind it which was storm water drainage so can't we implement this good work that you've done over a long period of time where there's no mandate for the first 10 years of It Whatever whatever the right number is to give something for the residents to work with I think regardless of what we do here well I shouldn't say that I think what we do here tonight isn't going to work for most of the residents if we make it as is it just won't work and the citizenry they're not going to stand up for they're they're going to force they're not going to let this stand the way it is I don't know how many people were here on August 20th I know you were here for a little while Chris and I know that Stacy and Katherine don't want to go through a night like that before I was embarrassed I was embarrassed by the way that the staff and the commission were treated there was just a lot of misconceptions and and it's hard to get around like we our jobs aren't to sit around all day and to say no that's not true no that's not true and that's the corner that that we've been backed into like it's just flat out lies back to my question really is how can we take the Mandate part of this out of take the the teeth out of that part of it even if it's even if it's temporary we can always put the teeth back in it if we had to I I'm not trying to make it a one or the other maybe there is a way of having a few years make a motion make a motion and put the condition in that's the condition okay we pass okay I make the motion that we pass this with the stipulation that there is no mandate for for the codifica for the raising of the first level during the first 10 years of this code I don't have any problem with that and I want to include a few others yeah some of my ridiculous conention no new seaw walls you know you don't have to build a seaw wall you can Sid slope your uh from the top of your seaw wall up I don't want people to say oh I can't afford this cuz I need a new seaw wall so no new seaw walls no retaining walls will be required if you don't can prove that you don't need them a signed and sealed drainage plan will be required and that uh does uh prove sometimes that you don't need that retaining wall I mean it can be done not everybody needs to build a house to the setback line uh I think the signed and sealed drainage plant is already a requirement it is I'm just adding addition survey data that's needed pre impost and and to different extents on the property and you also need to have an external civil review when you're using Phil it's not just in house just like you would do with any other property and that's what I'm trying to do Stacy is just make it clear that uh you know I've just been the recipient of so much misinformation that it gets tiring allat with the conditions can we amend five years instead of 10 I I say with 10 I I would I I think you know we're talking about people's homes here and what they're going to do over the next 10 years to raise their homes and and I I guess I we're talking about a hundred-year plan overall so we're talking about 10% of it yeah but see it's working after five years the people that actually you know yeah if we see it's working we can always change always change it you can always you can always look the rate of Redevelopment it's much more impactful than 10% you know yeah we we got a lot of digging out to do in the next two years next three years happen well this the storm change things for a while I want the condition include that filled structural and non-structural fi dirt will be allowed to be imported on the Treasure Island I just want that condition in there because I want it very plain that yeah you can build a new house and you can haul dirt in I mean hell some of my neighbors got stop work orders when they were hauling dirt in the hauling dirt in we have a no fill ordinance it's a no fill ordinance of the city just like all the other cities that reside within the flood plane we're not unique and that's another one of those just misconceptions that keeps getting repeated over and over and over again the the hauling dirt in also is there some type of stipulation on the quality of the dirt is there an environmental concern bringing any filled dirt in so we do have a motion on the floor that's been seconded into has to be resol I didn't acknowledge a second yet cuz I wasn't done with my condition I was incl I had the conditions listed uh chairman so I it was including I said Richard's conditions but but I wasn't done with my last one yet I just want that on there that uh Phil is allowed you had that as number four it was actually number five five sorry I miss all right before we uh why don't you read these out read them out because I uh let's get clity number six was no ro road improvements you didn't include that in your most recent listing of condition got there yet okay no Road improvements I'd like that in there too for the next I I'll even say that for the next 10 years yeah let's let's put a time limit on that one what does that mean I just don't that you can't uh that basically you will not be uh doing major projects connected with this that will uh raise the roads you can't do it no son's let me think that one say it's not mandatory no no new roads are no mandatory New Roads new mandatory reconstruction of roads it's not really saying we're going to do roads it's not I mean you can't there's nothing you can put in a code going to bind the city commission to to to spending money in a future budget that's not in an adopted CIP that's just not a thing that you can do well I know that Stacy but you just got that Mis that that don't really mean I had individuals tell me that this is binding to spend $250 million in today's dollars and I'm like I don't agree with you but uh I'm just trying to to the miscon it doesn't say that it's getting it's getting to the point of ridiculous age well we're we're we're keep we're staying on the ridiculous path in my opinion and that's fine this is your recommendation read the uh condition you have a new motion repeated we have the motion on the table uh I think the best way to would be for Chris to amend it then get a second on that with the clarified motion yeah let's do that cuz he has I think he has the chairman I'll glad I'll be glad to amend once I we have all these written down absolutely okay so do we have all of them now go ahead and just restate your motion and so you know I recommend I'd make a motion that we approve um going forward with this plan with the following proposed conditions um that no new seaw walls be required um no new docks be required no retaining walls be required that fill dirt and structural dirt be allowed to be brought in as an option and nonstructural and non-structural dirt that there would be U no mandate for elevating the first level for the first 10 years of the program can I ask ask for a clarifier on that one um does that mean you can choose to use Phill or you can choose not to use Phill my well by the clarification there is that you're still allowed to use Phill you're just not mandated to go to the maximum elevation that the program requires okay we can Wordsmith that perfectly at later but that's the intent okay um that a signed and sealed drainage plan be required and that's the motion okay with that can I have a second I'll second all right and we are making a recommendation to the city commission to approve that subject to those six conditions if it added up to six is that correct years and then it sunsets or what happens at 10 years in 10 years at Sunset and we revisit it it will need to be the non no mandate sunsets and then it becomes mandated but I think we well look for this way it can be Revisited but of course it could be Revisited between that those those years but we're saying in this motion that there'll be no mandate for the elevation of the first level but still allow Phill during the first 10 years you're just not mandate it's not mandatory that you go to the maximum elevation that the plan calls out during the first 10 years I think people are going to say you're not giving me enough I'm sorry I think you're I think people are going to be upset the other way that you're not giving them enough I think I'm allowing them to bring Phil in both for an elevated house and for a new home no I I understand I totally understand I just that was one of the concerns we had When developing the program is when you go through all the checks and balances like it you're just limited in one way or another but you're not I'm not limiting them at all they can they can go as high as the plan allows them to do I'm not man we are just not mandating them to do so but so are you saying that they don't have to follow the manual in terms of like maintaining in FIP compliance the the driveway slopes you know views and that type of thing like no they still have to apply all the all those conditions okay so it is limiting it's just it's it just doesn't require them ra first level to the level that the allows for yep okay y it's that part of it pretty simple anytime they're using fil they're going to follow that manual other than they don't have to go to the max correct they don't want to right they had 20% slope on the driveways um what else is some of the other the fence Heights all the other uh bits and pieces that are included in that manual I actually think this can work so can we put something in there so we have the 10year sunset but is it do we have to stipulate that there's an annual review my concern is the 10 years I I guess my my opinion that we could put that I'm fine to have a with that we would have the commission take a look at or our board fact we could say that our board will look at this the LPA will look at this on an annual basis to see how it's being imp and you can make it an item that you want to open it up for discussion and you want to revisit goodidea so I will revise my motion to add an item seven that the LPA would uh review the performance of the implementation of this plan on a yearly basis yes yes on a yearly basis well yeah we're say on a year yearly basis take I just establish a Baseline Baseline we can always change it later that's that's my motion that's the amendment to my motion and um I guess I'd have to have a second second you I'll have the chair asked for a second I think it should be starting in year two cuz maybe year one year gu maybe it's every other well I'll in that I'll say seventh the one it be every other year that the every every second year we would um have the LPA would review this good for performance we got all those uh I think we have the seven that's my motion I'll second then that's fine all right got a motion by Chris Downing a second by Ross Sanchez let's have a roll call vote Chris Downing yes Ross Sanchez yes Michael herbees no Marvin shaelin yes Gary penano I just got a question why are we going to two years why don't we want to do a yearly basis just because of the lag first time it's not going to matter first should be two years because it's going to take a year just to get going it just yeah not going to have of and construction time hell if you started the house right now you it'd be hard to get it done in two years hell the one next door to me took four yes yes thank you grant Smith yes Richard Harris yep six to one our recommendation to the city commission is to uh go forward with the uh conditions terrain modification manual with the six seven conditions thank you y seven yeah Lucky Seven all right well uh I excuse I have to go sorry local planning agency issues comments or discussion I have to go all right excuse me any uh okay any discussion I do have one question for Katherine and this maybe I should ask you after the meeting it's a Code Enforcement issue I don't want to bring it up in front of everybody I'll do it later everybody wants to go reports of City attorney staff or board members held this uh discussion I thought was really good today uh got to air out a lot of grievances next LPA meeting will be in January what are we looking at Katherine uh you've asked me to bring back uh more than six months on the non-conforming abandonment Clause so we'll work on an ordinance for that if we can get that done we'll bring it back um we do expect I believe to have two pnz cases as well so if it is only two in P two p and that one thing we would I'm assuming the board would like to just combine that into one day like we've been doing is oh absolutely followed by LP not a day like this yeah okay okay nobody's in the audience for a public comment can I have a motion to adjourn make a motion to we adjourn second all in favor I I thank you gang right that was