##VIDEO ID:R4sojYZqPQc## the let me take Natalie's away I moved you over here sir right here y you're going to go right here I see you more than I see my wife all right hey guys oh today V we're all good okay all good we're all settled let me okay good evening everyone uh I call this meeting of the township begin and planning board to order on December 16 2024 at 74 PM uh Sunshine act notice please certainly pursu to the open public meetings law notice that this meeting taking the time and place was Satisfied by the filing of an annual notice with the local source and the Star Ledger newspapers of General circulation within the and posted on the bulard of the municip bu roll call please Alexander here Mr here here Mr millero here here here here uh can we swear the engineer please first item on our agenda is the approval of the meeting minutes from November 18 24 can I have a motion please so moved moved by Mr Cohan s a second second second by Mr fr roll call please Mr Alexander yesan yes Mr L yeso yes Mr fr yes M KH yes um the next item up is the resolution uh for the recommendation of the flood plane management Municipal Code uh can I get a motion to approve the resolution so moved moved by Mr conohan is there a second second seconded by Mrs Khan roll call please Mr Alexander yes yes yes yes Mayo yes yes yes yes the next resolution is uh from application 202 24-8 Crystal Restaurants uh can I get a motion please so moov move by Mr Coan is there a second second seconded by Mr Alexander uh roll call please Mr Alexander yes Mr yes yes yes yes yes yes uh we have two items up for new business tonight the first item up first is uh call Kristen Russell with the proposed coordinates zoning changes for chapter 17 good evening um Kristen Russell here with coler's engineering um I have what I expect will be a rather brief presentation this evening I want to give you some background um I was here this past summer I think it was summer um and presented to you a master plan reexamination and related zoning code amendments um you recommended those amendments to the Zone um excuse me to the township committee um but it was brought to our attention that somehow that never happened um the township committee still needs to adopt them and um although I've presented them to you before because of the lapse in time and perhaps some new people on the board I was just asked to present that to you again it's the same information that I provided earlier in the year but I just want it to be fresh on everybody's mind so that um assuming you make a recommendation this evening um you do know what what it is we're talking about I do thank you um so as I said earlier this year we had um you had adopted a master plan reexamination and within that reexamination there were several recommendations um regarding changes to the zoning code the first of which was a recommendation that the MC Zone be revised to eliminate residential uses this um requires a simple striking of such uses in the table of uses within your zoning code and um any density requirements that would correlate to them them since they would no longer be relevant Additionally the master plan reexamination recommended the rezoning um of two Parcels from to to CI um these are Parcels that are currently being used by um Peerless beverage and um other industrial uses in the area and there is no expectation that those will be immediately um adapted or redeveloped um in a TOD capacity so this rezoning would align the Zone the zoning of those Parcels to match what is actually happening on the ground um in addition to changes that were recommended in the master plan reexamination we had several administrative changes that I have presented to you I'm just going to go over the gist of them now um these are Miss alone miscellaneous amendments requested by the township um including um regulation of massage and bodyw work Services tattoo parlors um prohibiting methadone clinics and um parking of flatbed utility trailers um specifically tattoo parlors um we went and defined them matching the definition that the state provides um technically they are body art establishments although collo collo Wheely we call them tattoo parlors um and this would confine them to um as a conditional use to properties along Route 22 methadone clinics again it's a state definition and that is one use that we are allowed to prohibit and we've done so massage and bodyw work um this is actually regulated elsewhere in the code through licensing um and inspection regulations however we have cross referenced that um health and I guess it's health and safety um section of code with in zoning so that they are consistent with each other and the two are understood to um speak to one another and last but not least um we were asked by the zoning officer to clarify a regulation on utility trailers um prohibiting the parking of them um on residential lots um just for clarification in their enforcement practices that's really all that I have um it probably sounds familiar to most of you but as I said um the process was not carried through and that's where we are tonight um but um to refresh your memories I'm happy to take any questions or if anything new has come into your minds I'm happy to happy to talk about it questions from the board questions from the public pleas come up come up to this mic here you just need to identify yourself um my name is Tony baruchi 1044 M Veron Road um my question is about trailers I own a boat with a trailer does this mean that we can't park boats or trailers um there's regulation already there's already regulation in the code that you can't um regulating the parking of boats and trailers on residential lots so whatever regulation you're under now is actually going to be whatever the boat regulation is now the trailer will also be under that same regulation okay thanks yeah any other questions from the forward comments from forward so what you would do now is recommend this to the township committee for adoption all right uh before we do that any any comments from the public okay hearing none uh can I get a motion please to concur with the uh proposed ordinance zoning changes for chapter 170 and refer this back to uh the township committee for final adoption motion moved by Mr Frank is there a second second seconded by Mr Cohan roll call please Mr Alexander yes Mr Cohan yes yes may yes yes yes m p yes thank you very much thank you everybody enjoy the holiday all right the second item up and if I could just say thank you for the patience of the public here and as well as our applicant I know that this has been a long time waiting for this act to be heard and it will be heard tonight um it's application 20244 watch on developers and the representa yes good evening Mr chairman stepen ha representing the uh applicant Watchung developers and appreciate the board and the Public's patients also and your board professionals so uh and I I think we may have several months ago began with brief opening statements but I know there's some new board members and I thought what we would do is May I'll I'll again give a brief introduction and uh overview of the application and then we can move on to our Witnesses I know uh Mr librin is here uh one of the things that I spoke to coun that uh when it comes time for questioning uh and I'll Greg if you want to explain more detail as far as the questioning is concerned um the large Mar Association is represented by Council so uh Council will be asking questions on their behalf members of the association should not be asking qu questions of the witnesses um they will have an opportunity to comment publicly but not be asking questions about public Witnesses understood thank you thank you all right and again uh Mr chairman of board members again representing wat WatchON developers in connection with this property uh what's proposed here is the construction of 11 unit apartment building uh on this site uh just to note that the uh the property is zoned and permits the multi family use we meet all zoning criteria uh including height density setbacks uh F uh the only variance associated with the with the project it isn't created as part of this project is lot width lot width is required to be 150 ft we have 140t that is not being intensified as part of this application furthermore we're not seeking any deviations of or variances for setbacks or the like so uh it is essentially a variance free application and I will note that I know there's members of the public and large F objecting to this uh of uh multif family residential is probably one of the least intense uses for this property and for the neighborhood among the permitted uses in the NC zone are restaurants brew pubs retail sales and services medical offices Child Care Centers any of those uses are also permitted which would certainly be much more intense both by way of hours traffic and the like and I think that's important not and our our planner will touch on that in more detail when when our planner testifies but and we have received all of your departmental reports don't have any problem complying with any terms conditions of of those reports and uh the um and this this application was in fact deemed complete and I know Mr chair you noted that it's uh there's been several adjournments of of the case deem complete on June 11th of 2024 so that's an overview of our application and what we'd like to do first is start with our site engineer Mark rmo to give us an idea of existing conditions at the site and then what's proposed by way of improvements oh yeah you want help with Mr H if you could just summarize how many witnesses are you calling tonight um we propos to start with our our site engineer Mark Ramo Mark Marion our architect uh Gary Dean our uh traffic engineer and John teina our professional planner so correct I think you'll be sworn first there mark yeah Mr Remo would you spell your last name for the record my name is Mark m a RC Remo r m o Mr Remo we raise your right hand SAR the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do all right Mr Remo I know over the years you've testified before this board but for the benefit of the board board professionals and the public if you could briefly give your credentials they of expertise licenses you hold and whether you've been accepted as a professional engineer before their boards or courts to the state sure I'm a licensed professional engineer in New Jersey New York several other states in the District of Columbia I'm also licensed professional planner in New Jersey and a certified Municipal engineer I have about 40 years experience in site plan and subdivision design I've provided uh professional engineering and planning testimony at numerous boards including this board board stipulates great thank you Mr chairman all right Mr Remo if you could take us through uh as I said in my beginning the existing conditions at the site and then we can move on to uh what's proposed by way of improvements and any uh Municipal reviews and if you if there plans that were submitted and spend the practices board H they we don't need to mark them any new exhibits would have to be marked as a as a new exhibit yeah everybody uh the board should have all the plans that okay I'm showing just identify what the plan is in the page number yeah so this is sheet three this is basically the existing conditions as exist uh currently so the uh property being developed is known as Lots 1 two and three in Block 4501 it's also known as 105 largemont Road the site is located at the southeast corner of uh the intersection of Larchmont Road and mors Avenue the property is in a regular shaped lot with a width of 140 ft and a depth of 168 ft the property has 140 ft of Frontage along Larchmont Road and 191 ft of Frontage along mors Avenue the area to property is uh 24,829 Square ft or 057 Acres currently the site is developed and it consists of a 1 and a half story frame and brick single family dwelling uh it also has a uh asphalt pave driveway and a concrete patio and the rest of the site is predominantly woodlands and grass there is an existing sanitary sewer um located within a 5 foot wide easement that runs uh along the property line of lots one and two uh that connects to an 8 in line on Larchmont Road the uh Topography of the site uh generally slopes in a northwesterly direction towards Larchmont Road the site is located in the NC neighborhood core Zone District uses surrounding the site are single family detached properties to the north and to the east offices and uh Church to the north and west to the south and east as a bank and offices and to the South and West is a funeral home and offices so this is uh the site plan sheet four so the applicant for the prop uh project is proposing to demolish the existing house and construct a three-story uh multif family dwelling and an asphalt paved parking lot uh to serve a development there's a total of 11 apartment units proos proposed first floor will contain three one-bedroom units the second floor will contain four two-bedroom units and the third floor will contain four two-bedroom units the approximate dimensions of the building are 68 ft by 109 ft the building will be set back 37t ft from uh largemont Road uh 37 ft from Morris Avenue 35 ft from uh the uh property line uh to the side and also the rear property line will be set back 35 ft there's uh 20 parking spaces proposed including one handicap parking space and one electrical vehicle parking space the dimensions of the Stalls are 9 by8 ft and the handicap space will be 8 by 18 ft with an 8T wide aisle for Van accessibility the parking lot will be partially covered by the second floor of the building access to the site will be from Larchmont Road by way of a 24t wide access driveway that'll be twood directional uh there will be minimal truck traffic anticipated uh the aisle whips should be sufficient and the traffic impacts should be minimal at the uh driveway so we'll go to the uh grading and drainage plan which is sheet five so proposed uh drainage improvements uh for the project include the construction of a subsurface Detention Facility that'll be located on underneath the uh parking lot and uh a storm sour system uh to collect the uh surface runoff from the roof and also from the parking lot all that runoff will be directed to the Detention Facility the proposed uh Detention Facility will have a storage capacity of 4,976 cubic feet it'll consist of 15 ft by 114 ft by 3ft Deep uh brenwood storm tank modules the AL flow structure will control the runoff from the site the outflow pipe will be connected uh to an existing uh storm sore on largemont road and uh since the uh all the runoff will be directed to the uh Detention Facility there will be no impact on the uh Downstream areas as far as utilities go proposed uh utilities will be existing gas Water and Electric and sanitary sewer uh those will be extended from Larchmont Road into the site and as far as lighting and Landscaping we'll go to sheet six so lighting will consist of uh 10t High uh pole mounted Lumin AES there'll be LED lights located along the per perimeter of the uh parking lot uh they'll be down lights so they won't shine on to adjacent Properties or or the uh existing roadway system uh canopy lights will also be proposed under the uh uh garage as far as Landscaping proposed Landscaping Landscaping will consist of shade trees planted along moris Avenue and largemont Road flowering type trees will be planted along the perimeter of the parking lot and also the uh perimeter of the building Foundation type plants will be planted along the perimeter of building and screening type trees will be planted along the trash enclosure and also along the uh side and rear property lines all other areas will be seated and sided as far as variances uh there's uh one bulk seat type variance required that's for a minimum lot width required is 150 ft where 40 ft is existing and proposed uh this variance uh is pre-existing and attributed to the existing uh size of the property in addition the uh proposed multif family residential use is a permitted use in the zone and a variance required is minor in nature and is pre-existing condition we have uh received uh comments from the Township Board engineer and letter dated August 30th 2024 and also from the Fire official in a letter dated uh actually wasn't dated uh and the applicant plans to work with the uh board engineer and the Fire official to address the comments if the board would like me to go through the comments I will Mr chairman we have no problem complying with any of the terms and conditions and um certainly if you want Mr R he and go through uh each of the items in the call your letter actually please okay Mark why don't you take us through the you've identified the one pre-existing variance why don't we uh begin with number on the coler's letter uh beginning on 2.1 okay so uh in the carer's letter dated August 30th 2024 uh 2.1 offsite site uh track improvements uh we're opposing proposing curb driveway aprons Landscaping utility connections to largemont Road that's just a comment uh item 2.2 o trenching in the largemont road rway shall consist of flowable fill we have no problem with that we'll propose uh flowable fill storm water item number 2.3 storm water will be connected to the inlet on Larchmont Road the inlet shall be examined and structurally repaired if necessary during connection all repairs shall be made with the direction of Township engineer the applicant agrees to that uh side triangle should be shown on the egress driveway on Larchmont Road in accordance with ashto standards um I did prepare a sketch uh I mean we'll revise the plans to indicate that but uh no problem in complying with that yeah I mean I do have a a sketch here that that actually shows the sight line so this is the uh the driveway so a car exiting the driveway looking right could basically see 135 ft uh to a vehicle that's coming towards a driveway to the right and then towards Mars Avenue uh you could basically see in Mars Avenue 192 feet I believe it is great um so I don't see a problem with the sight distance I mean obviously Larchmont Road there's a horizontal curve that that bends around so that kind of limits your site basically okay uh as far as offsite improvements um item 3.1 the applicant shows basic uh actually on-site improvements uh the applicant shows basic on-site improvements that's just a comment item 3.2 all water flows domestic and sprinkler shall be calculated ated by the applicant and confirmed availability by New Jersey American Water will provide that item 3.3 any comments of the health fire and uh health and fire officials um will be addressed prior to site Improvement permit item number four grading and drainage 4.1 grading information on the plan clearly shows storm water flow directed to the Northwest additional grade should be shown in the area of the ads accessibility spaces to confirm compliance with Ada grades and codes as Bill construction shall be required to confirm proper construction uh we'll provide some additional grades in the handicap U areas uh item 4.2 the applicant proposes increasing impervious coverage from 13.6 to 45.2 as indicated in the STM management report therefore increasing the ovious coverage by 0.18 Acres since the disturbance of .57 acres is less than one acre and increase of the impervious coverage is .8 the projects not considered a major development item 4.4 uh applicant proposes the insulation of stormw detention facilities located below the parking lot uh to be converted uh connected to the flow control structure and discharges into the inlet of Larchmont Road uh again this is just a comment um regarding the size of the system item 4.5 Peak uh Peak rates for the proposed Detention Facility for the 210 25 50 and 100e storm events are greater than the existing conditions during the storm events which is unacceptable to the township ordinance um that's an incorrect statement um we Goot to drainage report and and we go down to the uh the runoffs uh you'll see that for the 2-year storm we're decreasing the Flow by 77 Acres 10year storm we're reducing the Flow by 1.08 uh cubic feet per second rather not Acres uh 25e storm we reducing it by 1.26 cubic feet per second 50e storm reducing it by 1.35 cubic feet per second um and the 100-year storm we're reducing it by 1.49 cubic feet per second so we are reducing the flows item 4.6 uh the applicant shall submit a operation and maintenance plan for the stormw Detention Facility uh will will provide that and as a matter of practice that then gets recorded uh with with the county so it's on record for maintenance of the storm water system uh item five 5.2 this is regarding the ADA requirements oh 5.1 uh five I think you already said we comply with the parking but yeah so 5.2 uh ADA requirements um for 12 parking spaces basically we need one spot so we comply with that that's just a comment item 5.3 is regarding the uh fan accessibility uh we comply we comply with that uh 5.4 um in accordance with the ordinance the handicap parking space must be equipped with a uh EV uh equipment uh we can provide that uh as far as sanitary sore item 6.1 um the applicant provided a sanitary sewer flow calculations and uh we're proposing for the proposed conditions 2250 gallons per day so there's no treatment works approval required that's just a comment from the board engineer item 6.2 uh connections to the sore line on Larchmont Road will require a Township Department Public Works approval the applicant will comply with that um traffic and circulation the applicant uh shall demonstrate that the fire and emergency apparatus can access all areas at the site any proposed fire L of restrictions um parking from the Union Township emergency official officials shall be implemented um we'll comply with that I think the traffic engineer will go over the uh and the fire uh expert will go over to fire uh apparatus item 7.2 the applicant shall demonstrate using a truck turning template that the path and method of how the garbage uh shall be collected from the proposed Refuge area um I think the traffic engineer will go into detail with that but I do have a sketch uh of what we're going to provide is a uh a small turnaround area so when the garbage uh truck comes in uh he could back into this area and turn around so he doesn't have to back out into uh lont road is that in new exhibit I'm sorry that's that's a new exhibit uh yes okay so why don't we have that marked as A1 and we'll provide uh copies excuse me Mr chair can I point at the date of that exhibit Mark um August 21st 2024 okay you can continue so item8 uh technical comments 8.1 uh the three existing Lots shall be merged if this application is approved and a new Lot number obtained from the tax assessor applicant agrees to that and Mr chairman we would prepare a lot consolidation deed with the description to approved by your uh Ford engineer and then have it submitted and recorded uh item uh 8.2 to site plan shall be revised to provide a note indicating the entire site will comply to Ada regulations we provide that item 8.3 there was no area inside uh collection of garbage and recyclables residents will be expected to place garbage and recyclables in the outside trash and recycl storage area the applicant shall provide a truck turning template to demonstrate the area to be accessible by truck uh we went over that in the in the last comment with regard to the turnaround area item 8.4 the zoning table shall be updated to include a common uh a column for the existing conditions will provide that also the building height should be revised to 34t 5 in and the minimum public RightWay not the front Ed should be listed in the zoning table as 60 ft which it is uh we'll make those revisions item 8.5 the applicant shall testify on how many apartments will be affordable um we have to just comply with ever the affordable requirement is of the township 8.6 the applicant shall testify on the status said the monument sign at the entrance from Morris Avenue to largemont Road um the monument sign is existing it's going to remain as is and uh item number nine documents permits and approvals uh the applicant is if it's approved uh the applicant shall provide an engineers's estimate of site improvements uh we agree to do that the applicant shall obtain a site Improvement permit uh we agreed to that pre-construction meeting uh shall be held we agreed to that item 9.4 applicant must obtain a building permit after receiving site Improvement permits from the township applicant agrees to that 9.5 applicant shall obtain approvals from uh Somerset Union Soil Conservation District and the Union County planning board uh applicant agrees to that we've actually prepared as part of the set of plans the Sol erosion plan so that'll be submitted to the somerset unit Sol Conservation District for their review and approval I think that that covers we can have the uh fire address separately so okay so um no further questions at this time of Mr rmo uh questions from the board Mr chairman um so Mr Remo the you indicate in your testimony and in the analysis letter from cers that the Imp coverage is increasing from 13.6 to 45.2 uh and then you indicate that in your one exhibit that you're actually going to be reducing runoff can you explain to me how that is if if we're increasing perious coverage that we wouldn't have more runoff well we're that's why we're providing a Detention Facility so the increase in runoff will be stored in the under theground Detention Facility and then released it'll be a controlled release so that we actually decrease the runoff after development and I I tried to digest that that chart with the calculations on it I'm just curious how do you go about calculating those numbers to represent that there's going to be reductions in in runoff in the different storm events well we calculate the existing runoff and the proposed runoff based on what's being developed and that difference in the runoff obviously when you pave the site or or provide additional impervious coverage your in increase in a runoff so we take that runoff and put it in an underground system control it with an outflow structure with a small orifice and a wear so that we reduce the flows and and what happens if that Detention Facility reaches its capacity and there's additional water additional run up well it's based on a 100-year storm I mean if it if if there's a storm event over 100-year storm there is a wear in the outlet structure and the water will go over the wear and then into uh the outlet pipe that goes to laremont road but that's a 100e storm that that would be pretty big storm thank you any other questions from the board uh I do have a couple questions on my end um to continue the line of question with regards to the calculation of uh the runoff based on your report the methodology you use is something called the rational method what I've noticed that when I was looking at the calculations and and the numbers that we provided that this is limited to Peak flow but it's not does not account for runoff volume correct no it accounts for for for volume also yeah okay so within this is where I'm it's unclear to me because the chart that you presented um on I do believe page five four and five if you record the net increases or decreases is based on a unit of cubic feet per second so that is rate so has there have been a calculation of volume total run of volume well I mean we designed a system to reduce the flow rates and and in addition to actually reducing the flow rates we're also infiltrating storm water into the ground because it's an underground system that will infiltrate uh some of the runoff now it's not a major development because it's less than a quarter acre of impervious coverage so we don't have to meet the recharge requirements that the state imposes on over a quarter an acre but we are providing actually seepage because it's an infiltration system in addition to being in a Detention Facility now you did note um on page two of the report that the total storage capacity of the subsurface Detention Facility is a little less than 5,000 cubic feet U 4,976 Cub feet right based on the question that Mr Cohan asked ask with regards to um how that Detention Facility can get to Max Capacity can you say from your report um let's say if it's a 100-year storm how long does it take for that Detention Facility to be filled to capacity based on the rat that you provided within 100e store how long does it take to fill up mhm I mean I don't know off the top of my head obviously I don't know that for would it be helpful just so I mean basically sorry 2.73 hours 2.73 hours for 100 years yeah okay going back to the methodology that you use too and looking at the calculations um it's not it's actually not a complex um formula of computation that is used here I think if you have a good solid alge skill set you're able to follow along does this methodology assume that rainfall rate the rate of rainfall is uniform throughout a period of time basically it's constant does it account for variations of rainfall during a peri perod of time yeah well we use uh the njd rainfall intensity curves so it's a type three curve that we use and that's what's being modeled based on New Jersey uh in this area it's a type three storm and if you can if you can help me as well as the board understand in the calculations within appendix one where is that variation accounted for in the calculation some more oh mik better sorry okay so appendix one what was your question now where within appendix one um using the Rational method do you count for variations of rainfall rate during a period of time because it appears based on the calculations that you have that it assumes a uniform rate fall well appendix one is just showing the peak runoffs you have to look at the hydrographs to see the variations in the rainfall these are just in appendix one are just the peak runoffs just Peak runoffs right okay so we're reducing the peak runoffs to less than actually what's happening uh currently but it would take the hydrographs to actually determine variations of flow over time or within right sorry within flows of time is yeah but I mean obviously the peak is the highest so it would be okay the highest runoff would be the peak and does the r i noticed that in the plans you also account for the planting of trees you know vegetarian V vegetation of the sort does this also account for the added trees and vegetation on the property as well yes that's uh calculated within the uh runoff coefficients which are shown in pics uh to okay you see the woodlands heavy soil Lawns heavy soil meaning worst case scenario it's not sand it's more clay okay and those are the runoff coefficients right here now through the exhibits that you have can you explain to the board when rain does hit the property how does it make its way to the uh Detention Facility I'll pull up sheet five so so you have the ovious coverage uh will be all the runoff from The Improv area which will be the pavement from the parking lot and also the roof runoff will be directed to the seepage pit uh or to the Detention Facility which is also technically a seepage area so the building itself all the roof drains will be connected the system is here under the parking lot that rectangular system so the roof drains will be connected into the system and then the parking lot runoff there's an inlet over here there's also an inlet here in the corner so any runoff in the parking lot will be tied into the Detention Facility so you see these pipes here connecting from the inlets to the Detention Facility the roof drains will also connect we don't actually show the roof drain you know because it could be connected anywhere from the building into the system because the system is pretty big um the architect will have the down spouts and they will Connect into the Detention Facility so none of the impervious runoff will not be contained into the Detention Facility and so for the water that is stored in the sub Detention Facility um I noticed that in the letter that it as you noted in your testimony that it would go into a um it would basically exit off into Larchmont Road can can you just showcase how that looks like all right so here's the Detention Facility this rectangular area which is 15 feet wide by 114 feet long by 3 feet deep I mean basically they look like milk crates it's 97% void ratio so it's full volume there's no not much voids in there uh so that'll that'll flow out into an outlet structure which you see these two manhole covers and that's where you have your controlling structure a wear an orifice that controls the flow and then it'll go out of the outlet sh structure to a manhole to another manhole and then drain and connect to the back of uh the inlet on largemont road and if you can if you can orientate me that that's basically near the um for a lack of better term the intersection between largemont and Morris yeah yes it's right here okay um my followup question to that would be as as you have the proper controls to um have that water go into that Inlet do we account for if there's a possibility did we account for the capacity of the inlet itself at that intersection of largemont and Morris to understand what's the capacity of it and what's the risk of that to be going over capacity in which then that then runs off well we didn't do it we didn't do a Capacity Analysis of the existing storm SE system on Larchmont road we could do that I mean we would have to obtain some more information on the system but we are actually reducing the flows of what's going there now uh but uh we could provide that if that's needed and based on what you were saying that with the grading of the area is that basically any runoff would head toward Northwest basically right yeah I mean the existing runoff is generally running towards Larchmont Road um you know like it is proposed we haven't changed the the drainage pattern after development so basically what's going there now the same just less actually is going there now to that Inlet but we didn't analyze the existing system uh that we're tying into and this is based on Peak flows this is based on Peak flows right well this is based on the outflows from the uh Detention Facility okay um I just want to for board board members if they have any questions on their end because I do still do have a couple questions question yes Mr rmo thank you for your time could you just speakly uh speak about the uh outside lighting that uh would go around the border of the property in other words would that interfere with the home on Larchmont with all those lights how would that work so the lighting plan which is sheet six uh shows the lighting and also the the photometrics yes of the lighting so basically um if you see this line here this is the point five I if it's 0 five or three here let's see 05 foot candle limit so basically the 05 foot candle limit is just about at the property line and those lights are also going to be shielded so technically uh there's going to be back plates in there so they're actually going to be shielded where you're not even going to get that 05 straight down pretty much okay if you see there's a note on there proposed lighting shall be shielded okay even though the photometrics technically show it if it wasn't actually shielded okay thank you any other questions from board members thank Mr chairman yeah just a quick question the um your your detention system relies upon infiltration is that correct it doesn't rely on infiltration but we are providing infiltration did you did you do soil pits out there did you take a look at the soils yes we did and it is indicating that you believe the soils are adequate for ration out there yeah let's uh we have the soils report soils uh in the back of the uh drainage report okay so so I mean it's not it's not great soil but I mean it's somewhat uh pervious so we will be able to infiltrate some into the uh into the ground it's a K1 permeability class if you're familiar with that would you believe with even with those soils the system will perform appropriately well it's designed to actually fully evacuate so if there was no infiltration it's actually designed those flows are based on no infiltration so any infiltration we get will be a plus question related we didn't really talk about that wall I'm not a huge fan of walls right on the property line I know it's largely decorative in a lot of locations uh my concern is can you do you believe you can build that wall and stay on the property number one um so so yes the answer to that is yes we will keep the wall on the property let me just go to that sheet here so even during construction there's going to be nobody you know any anytime you're building a wall on a property line well it's about it's a little off the property line um looks on the back leg it's about a foot off the property line I guess so the wall is going to be let's see so so what is a decorative block retaining wall and this type of wall actually doesn't even require a foundation so it's basically a weighted a block and it's going to be less than 4 feet so there won't be any three-dimensional webbing behind it so the wall will be on our property do we know because it is going to there are places where the neighbors are going to see an elevation of that wall correct the joining neighbors well the neighbors are actually higher so they're not going to see the wall So when you say top of wall bottom of wall you talk about the inter interior yes okay so the wall is down from so you're they're going to see a cap really yeah they're not going to see the wall down from there right slopes down towards the lot that's all I have right now thank you um just to follow up on I think a comment you made about the soil not being great or I maybe paraphrasing can you elaborate on that yeah so we did soil testing uh soil logs and permeability testing so it's the permeability T we didn't hit any ground water on the log so as far as maintaining the system one foot above the water table which I believe there was one comment somewhere in the letter uh we could provide that so there's got to be a 1ot separation between the water table and the bottom of the system um we didn't encounter any groundwater during the logs uh the soil samples came back as a K1 material so basically you have a range of k0 to K5 K5 being you know like Bermuda sand basically and K Zer being really not uh permeable at all so it's on a lower end of the permeability but it's not but but but again the system isn't designed for for infiltration even though we're going to provide that because it's an open system but since it's not a major project it's not required to have infiltration so you said so the the classification is k1 is you K1 material yeah K1 material So based on the classification system um does that also infer in terms of susceptibility to erosion magnitude of erosion over time can can you elaborate on on the potential that's just a permeability rate that's permeability yeah it's permeability has nothing to do with erosion okay Mr chairman one more question yes please uh regarding the maintenance of the detention System since we're relying heavily upon that um life expectancy and maintenance requirements associated with it solely it's it's 100% underground accessibility is limited what do you what do you anti uh system with proper maintenance lasts for well we're going to provide a uh a maintenance and operation and maintenance manual that was one of the comments how to maintain the system um I mean there's there's observation ports uh in the corners of the system where you know they can maintain it vacuum it out if there's any sentiment that gets in there um so it'll be maintained and will put provide a manual for that you think with proper maintenance this has that life expectancy of I mean you know it could last for 30 40 years I would think thank you it's designed for H20 loading so it's designed for truck loading so it should last you know quite a long time any other questions from board members all right you're stuck with me a little bit for a couple more questions okay um I noticed in the letter uh from kers uh specifically page two essentially the second paragraph that there's a transfer from overhead to Buri electrical and telephone wiring between utility poles 64757 un and 63680 UN in the exhibit can you can you showcase basically where those utility poles are and basically how they will be connected through the underground wi I think I think uh the tech the fire yeah we have another witness actually if if if we needed to that would address than the fire issues I assume is okay so it's not one of the four witness uh no no I I wasn't sure whether uh specific questions would come up because again we've indicated we have no problem addressing any of the fire department comments got it okay all right um I don't have any other questions on this board members Mr DAV okay questions from the public yes good evening everybody I'm Stuart liberman I represent the Larchmont State civic association uh and good evening sir I have a few questions for you um I I do want to know uh whether or not you are agreeing to put the utilities underground because that was one of the comments are you agreeing to do that we we have a separate expert that'll address that okay but the engineer can't say yes or no I mean he's the engineer we have another witness that will address that okay all right um in terms of the stor Mor system I have a few questions for you that I just want to go over first of all the engineer uh had indicated that you need to demonstrate one foot of separation between the mean high water table and the bottom of the Basin do you have any data that supports that yes and where is that and when has that been provided well there's a there's a drainage report uh let me just go into that stone Water Management report so in the back of that report you'll see uh there's soil logs uh just see soil log one and so both basically both the logs uh soil log uh one was down 132 ft we didn't get any indications of seasonal high water table so uh based on the state standards if you don't hit water you consider the bottom of the exavation as the seasonal high water table so we're we're probably about 4T above it to be honest with well when was that done was that done during a drought we've had very little rain this year when was this done what was the date that this was done well I mean we actually we've done a lot of soil logs out there because this Project's been going on for 15 years um what are the dates of the data that you presented in this report well this one this one was actually done in 2010 this log do you have any so all what you're relying on to show one foot of separation is data relating to your soil uh report Mr that's what you're relying on Mr liberman just make sure you speaking to the mic oh sorry about that there we just want to make sure you're on the record I appreciate it so you don't have any independent report showing the one foot separation you're relying on your soils analysis report is that correct well yeah that's what determines the separation because you know where the water table is and the one the system has to be one foot above it m did anybody from the municipal observe your your work when you were determined no it's not required I'm a professional engineer I actually did it myself the you you indicated that you uh there was a runoff coefficient that you relied upon what was the coefficient that you relied upon and how did you determine which coefficient to rely on well it's a weighted coefficient um so it's based on we'll go see if I can find that chart real quick excuse me the board I need to look here I don't mean to turn my back to you uh but I just need to see the uh the screen so please forgive me thank you so these are the runoff coefficients um Asheville pavement is 0.99 so the higher the number the more runoff you have roofs is 0.99 concrete is 0.99 Brick is 0.99 lawn is 0.51 what percentage of the site did you classify as lawn as compared to the others in other words and with the DP uh regulations don't they have with the D resignations don't they have a classification such as Meadow and and and and those kinds isn't that what the dup uses when they do this what there's there's this is the rational method I mean there's other methods you can use um I mean you know we show Lawns lawn area uh runoff coefficient is 0.51 which is actually a little bit higher than what you would normally normally use uh so these numbers are actually a little bit on the high side as far as but these aren't the D determinations right when DP uses this don't they have classification such as Meadow I know it's one of them and there are a few others like that right is that is that the chart you took from because I I don't yeah actually we did uh let's see if it's in the back of the report here Mr liberman if you need to just take the mic out and have it with you in case you have questions as you're looking at the screen feel free to do that I appreciate it thank you I mean I feel like Don you if you remember yes this is a chart here that show and and again these are the numbers that we used are actually higher than what I would normally uh actually use on a project that's not a major development but so we got to the uh the uh when you're talking about Meadow you're talking about meal good condition you have runoff coefficients of 044 for hydrologic soil group uh C I mean we're using 0. 51 so we're actually higher but what was your hydrologic soil group your group your soils are pretty poor over there aren't they again it's a different method as far as the hyd hydrologic soil group so we didn't use CN numbers um but the runoff coefficients that we use are 099 you can't get any higher than that what percentage of the property did you classify as lawn as compared to uh brick and and and the other uh designations hold on I got to go back okay so for the proposed conditions 13,391 Square ft of lawn and that was in the pre-development state is that correct a post-development I see I see and and predevelopment is uh well predevelopment is uh 17,1 159 of Woodland and 42 98 of lawn area so obviously that's reduced because we're put can you go back to the predevelopment please yeah so you're saying that so what's there right now is a house right there's a one and a half story house there correct that's correct yeah and then so you got roof much of the rest is is lawn right isn't much of the rest of that property currently lawn yeah it's predominantly woodlands and Lawn but you've got but you have designated as mostly Woodlands with heavy soil and then Lawns it's it's it's about what a quarter of it being Lawns is that really the what it is right now is it really just a quarter lawn and and almost four times that Woodland is that what you're saying that's there right now because that that affects the predevelopment numbers which show well what you really need to be post-development is that really what it is is it really one quarter lawn and four times that Woodland right now yeah and actually the runoff coefficients are very they're they're pretty close actually so well I know but a lot it's not going to really affect the calculation so much I know but yes that's that's what it is but a lot of times people finagle those numbers in order for it to show so a lower burden post-development than pre-development you're trying to saying there's more lawn than what we're sh well that's what I'm wondering it seems to me there is there's more lawn then that helps us that means there's more predevelopment runoff because the runoff for lawn is actually higher than for Woodland the um you talked about the types of soils and the infiltration when you talked about the soils you said you complied with the D in terms of rainfall you remember you said that in your in your design of your system you said you complied with what the D requires in terms of rainfall assessment well we use the NJ D runoff uh curves yes for rainfall for rainfall yeah but you know that DP about maybe four or five months ago changed the requirements so now rainfall has to uh Envision the next hundred years did you do that well we designed it for a 100e storm D do you understand that DP now requires that anyone who designs a storm water system needs to the input for rainfall has to be based on a prediction of what rainfall volume is going to be over a hundred years do you understand that yeah I don't quite understand exactly what you're asking but did you do that well it's it's designed for 100-year storm system based on the based on the D standard 100-year storm system is something different year storm runoff right that's right but we've had to design systems for 100 Year 2E 50 for years that's not new but what is new is that the input for rain has to Envision rain over the next hundred years isn't that accurate it's based on the current rainfall data right so you did not Design This for predictions of rainfall volume over the next hundred years even though that's what dup now requires did you we designed base on the current standards okay in terms of I understand in terms of Maintenance what this whole system is underground you're not going to see there's just two manholes or three and that's all you're going to see everything else is under that project isn't that correct it's an underground system right why didn't you have an above ground system like most people have why' you put it underground the site's not conducive excuse me a second you're saying by most you can't intru your own thoughts on that he's he testified to you said as most most people I would you're not an expert you have to limit your questions to factual questions of this okay okay you s the site's not conducive to a detention basein above ground Bas because there's not enough room for it the way the site is designed right well there's not enough room that's why you put it underground so this system is going to be underground and who is going to be responsible for maintaining this the owner I see and and what is this owner going to have to do and how much is this owner going to have to spend in order to maintain the system on an annual basis well that'll be incorporated into the operation man maintenance manual that we prepare I understand that but and that's based on the size of the system how frequently it has to be cleaned out and everything else but you'd agree with me that if the system isn't properly maintained it's going to fail right well everything needs to be maintained right so what are you expecting this owner to do in order to maintain this system that's completely Underground what are you expecting well again that'll be outlined in the operation of Maintenance manual do you understand that if the system fails it's up to under the ms4 permit the municipality will have to take responsibility for it do you understand that uh every town is a little bit different on that aspect of it do you understand that ms4 permits are standard they're Federal permits delegated to the states and every municipality in the state of New Jersey has one do you understand that I I don't understand your your questioning of that the owner is going to maintain the system not the city I see but you can't tell this board what it will take in order to maintain this completely underground system you're not in a position to tell the board right now well we're going that's going to be part of the operation the maintenance manual the was a mouning analysis done for the system no mouning analysis why wasn't a do what is a mouning analysis that's just to an analyze the water as it seeps into the ground outward and if it affects any adjacent uh foundations well you've indicated that the system has infiltration associated with it although you acknowledge that the soils are largely not conducive to infiltration correct that's correct so if the soils aren't conducive to infiltration but the system allows for infiltration what will happen to the water if it can't be infiltrated where is it going to go well it's going to drain out through the outlet shusher uhhuh or is it going to cause localized flooding because it wants to infiltrate but it can't go anywhere no it's going to be it's designed for no infiltration it's going to empty out after each storm no it's designed you indicated that the design will allow for infiltration but you're not wait hold on let me finish but you're not depending on it that's right in order to meet it's not an infiltration system for SE how about the the system has uh the system is designed so that the water after it's released at whatever rate you're releasing at it is going to end up in Larch a Larchmont Avenue correct in an inlet yeah but you haven't done any work to determine the capacity of that Inlet or if it's going to be able to accept that water in a say 50e or 100e storm you can't testify under Earth that it can accept it right now can you we did not analyze the storm sore system but if it doesn't accept it and if the system isn't doesn't have isn't robust enough so that Inlet can accept it you're going to have flooding all over Larch M you aren't you no if the analysis shows we'll have to upgrade the system well we're here right now like I said it we're actually reducing the flows so if there's a problem now then yes there would be a problem but if there's no problem now with the system there wouldn't be a problem but the inlet enlarment Avenue is an integral part of the system isn't it yeah and you don't know whether or not it can accept the water flows do you right now you don't know we did not analyze the downstream storm Source system okay in terms of peak flow rates you read the Coler engineering report right yeah and you read where the engineer indicated that you were not that your Peak flow rates post-development were higher than pre-development and he indicated that that was inconsistent with the ordinances that's what he wrote right yeah that's incorrect and you you say it's incorrect can you explain how it is that the two of you Engineers have such a different understanding as to whether or not the peak flow rates are satisfied do you have understanding of how what where's the confusion I have no idea I didn't make the comment mhm all I can tell you is we're reducing the flows based on the uh report so any of the comments by the fire chief you don't want me to ask now because you've got somebody else okay and you're going to be producing that witness because if not I'm going to ask him but you're producing him all right all right that's fine that's fine now in terms of parking on the site as I understand that this site is situated between two very busy roads right hasn't testified to that it's not a traffic engine traffic engine do you know whether they're busy well Mars heav you obviously he's a busy road and how about lchm AV you less busy okay now now my question for you is this you have you've designed this so that there are if I recall 20 parking spots or it might be 21 I think it's 20 because you took a credit for one right yes we took credit for electric vehicle and there are how many units uh 11 units or 13 units I can't remember 11 11 units so if it's 11 units and you've got 20 parking spots that's not quite two spots per unit correct MH and and I understand that your position is that meets the local ordinance so I'm not going to ask you about that where the guests going to park sir you're a weal seasoned attorney you know that the figures under the ordinance and under rsis account for guest parking I where isn't that is that true well I want to know in real life you know this rsis is great where do you anticipate the guests are going to park again the parking is based on the rsis standards and our professional planner will cover that but that's beyond the scope of his the project that you designed has no green space right it's all paved right no there's quite a bit of Green Space well not it not accessible by the unit by the people that are going to live there well sure I mean they can go outside I guess and I mean when you say green space I mean there's there's there's Lawns and Landscaping the trash is outside trash has going to be collected outside is that correct there's a trash enclosure outside that's I see I see so in other words and what's it going to be you're going to have the what dumpsters outside or what are you going to have outside it's going to be an enclosed uh screened uh trash enclosure area is that inside the covered area or is it outside of the covered area no it's outside the covered area it's over here so you so you expect the unit owners to go out outside whenever they have to take their trash out they're going to have to go outside is that right yeah but you couldn't design so that they could get inside huh why couldn't they go inside why does it have to be why do you have to do this to the residents I'm not doing anything to the residents um you could ask the architect that but uh it's a very short distance from the entrance to the building to the trash enclosure the trees are you are we responsible for Designing the trees or did somebody else do that the vegetation we did that you did that are the trees going to have leaves all year round or what kind of plantings are you doing um well I mean the the shade trees along Mars Avenue and and Larch Mar are going to be deciduous trees uh the flowering trees are going to be deciduous but the screening trees along the property lines are going to be evergreen trees so they will have leaves all year round I want to go back you indicated that the uh that the elevation um uh that the elevation um of the neighbors uh is is higher than the elevation of the project isn't that what you said yes where can you go back to I think it was sheet five where you had some elevations I'm sorry everybody I have to turn my back to please forgive me and then I have to re okay let's go back to this can you the um can you go yeah like yeah so okay what what shows the the the the wall the solid wall is that dotted line is that correct solid line the dotted line is a fence on top of the wall that's what I meant I'm sorry yeah the the fence is okay fine the wall and the elevation the elevation of that fence is what as depicted by this drawing the elevation of the fence yes or the wall the the elevation of the wall what is that well the elevation of the wall for instance in this corner here which is the highest point uh the top of wall is 106.5 bottom oil 104.5 and the parking lot's at 99 and so you're about 6 and 1 12 ft above the the parking lot the adjacent property so it's the site is lower than the adjacent property all cut is it uniformly consist lower than the adjacent property or does that change as As you move to the left well it changes but it's the whole site is lower than the adjacent product how much lower is it as you move to the left well I mean as we head towards launch m road right I mean you're actually pretty much the same over here that's right you're about the same so you're not really lower over there are you a little lower but you know you're 100 and comes down to about 98 here so when you said that the when you stated the height difference that was really predominantly to the right as we look at this drawer dra but not reflective of conditions to the left as we look at the drawing isn't that correct well it's much more uh cut as you go into the back of the lot than it is in the front so I'm correct obviously the front we have to meet the existing grade so on Larchmont we basically are the same elevation but where the parking is where the parking starts we're actually lower than the adjacent properties right some parts of it you're lower and some parts you're not well well the parking lot is totally under the uh the adjacent property the how thick will the vegetation be in other words in terms of providing sound barrier and a light barrier or or sound barrier and a visual barrier how how thick is the vegetative uh buffer that you're proposing so there's going to be screening screening type trees I'll get out of your way planted 5 ft on Center those are evergreen trees um so they're pretty dense planted along the property line here and all the way to almost Mar Avenue what size trees are you proposing to install I believe they're going to be six feet high let me see if I can six to seven feet high you're installing six feet high trees yeah to start out with and obviously they're going to grow okay and and how many years will it take for them to grow where there is a complete Visual and sound buffer how many years do you anticipate 6t gives you a sound buffer that's why we propose 6 to 7 ft you're telling me that 6 feet trees actually are expansive enough and developed enough to provide a sound buffer yeah is that what you're saying mhm are there any studies that say that or is that just based on your experience based on my experience cuzz those seem like very small trees no they're 6 to 7even Ft is pretty high for an initial planting let me see if I have any other questions and plus they're going to be planted uphill too so you're also a couple feet higher than the oh thank you thank you can you go to the um I don't know where it is now because some what I'm seeing here is a little different than what what I initially saw but do you have that architectural drawing that shows the height I didn't see you show it today but I'm not the architect so I know you're not the architect but the yeah I don't have the drawing the architect will have that well let me ask you a question well okay you got the architect coming yeah okay and he will he show I have a question about the height issue uh so you're not prepared to testify about the height do the architect all ask about the height well in general I could tell you that the height of the building is 35 ft 5 in but the architect can go into more detail with that what is the under the local code what is the maximum height that's allowed in that zone isn't it 35 ft or 345 ft 34t 5 in is what um what the architect is proposing that's what I thought um 35 ft is uh required 34 ft in is the proposal 35 ft is the maximum that's allowed in this zone right is the Power Pit included in that measurement um that I don't know if uh I don't think so actually the architect will answer that question okay I don't believe so right I don't believe so either and that was my question all right um it's normally not but the architect will testify to that well I noticed that it was an omitted figure when I looked at the architectural number I saw the different figures and that and there was a missing figure for the power pit and that's why I was asking but I'll list the architect about that all right at this time I don't have any other questions and I thank everybody feel courtesy thank you you're welcome thank you um are there any other questions from the public now just no I understand that um Mr liberman you're speaking on behalf of the association so no Association members are going up to ask questions on their own accord however if you're not a member M of the association then that's my understanding thank okay I'm going to that take me an hour to get but I'm okay so for a lack of better word if there are members of the public that are not members of the largan association and has a question um um um is there any way I can connect this um we have some photographs we like to just demonstrate some issues in regards to Mr uh now are so you're not a member of the large oh I am absolutely then this is not R you can go over Mr chairman can I have a two-minute break so I can see what the witness wants to show and then perhaps I'll present it is that okay sure just two minutes okay you know you know what to give some time um the board will recess for five minutes and we will return in five minutes all right thank you uh 836 hey Tony how you doing um I'm going to p a wit all right okay so Tony what I do I'm the police department sure you just show me yeah yeah let me okay everybody has their own rules and I respect that I apprciate thank you what time is it 8:30 that's true that's true well if it was I'd be drinking right okay they didn't say that okay thank you I'll be right back problem okay [Music] good good you want to see pictures told for more question app no no I'll do after let's doony I would say so so what Rel right there yeah I'll show [Music] right I know oh really oh boy and I'm really I think you got to do something do something a the recess I did not I sure uh planning board is uh returning uh from Recess it is 8:41 I just want to put in the record and and this is just longstanding rules of the planning board that the planning board basically hears testimony until 10:00 however if we do not go through all of our Witnesses tonight then the hearing continues at the next meeting which I do believe is January 23rd and we will continue the process until every question is heard and answered and every uh opinion uh is voiced before a decision is rendered on the application so as long as how many testimonies how many witnesses how many hearings we will get through it um we'll probably not get through it tonight because we are approaching 10:00 uh within a matter of an hour and 20 minutes minutes um but I just wanted to uh let that be known um I do know that right before uh the recess I know Mr lman you had to caucus with some of your uh Association members um if this is with regards to calling them as a witness what we'll have to do is Mr hail will go through his Witnesses and then we will then offer the ability for you to call any appropriate Witnesses again you know anyone who would want uh from the association to a witness or to answer questions we would prefer you to basically regulate that based on on your discretion that that's fine thank you very much and that that's what I anticipated so I appreciate it thank thank you all right um I know we had Mr rmo Right yes did you want to back or yeah I think I just had probably like two or three more questions just problem based on what we've heard so far Mr Rama thank you for bearing with us sure um I so there was a previous question that I asked with regards to the classification of the soil and that was more of the permeability of the soil and the determinant of the runoff coefficients I think where I was trying to get at with my question as well is that uh is there any correlation of runoff coefficients or classifications with um basically the Su susceptibility of a of such soil um to erosion or is there something else that is done to to to examine that well there shouldn't be any erosion I mean the site that's going to any areas that are going to be disturbed are going to be seated or SED so you're not going to have any surface erosion all the drainage is going to be run through conduits so you're not going to have any outflow of runoff onto the surface so it's going to be uh through conduits and connect to the uh existing system but is it does a report do any testing on on the risk of erosion or the extent the you know the possibility of erosion I know in your plan you submitted um I think a soil erosion and sediment control plan yeah there's a soil erosion and set control plan uh that's prep preped and that'll be reviewed and approved by the uh local SCD uh so they will look for uh those issues as far as erosion goes I mean there's uh but they would look for the issues that yeah of course I mean they have to issue the certification um you know there's certain seating requirements uh that the soil erosion District uh requires you know to prevent erosion but the plan doesn't establish the current condition or the the sub the extent of the susceptibility or the vulnerability of erosion or what that could look like what the plan like I said the Landscaping plan shows the area to be all stabilized with grass and Landscaping so there shouldn't be any erosion okay um my next question and and this kind of brings it back to full circle with regards to storm water management flooding and things of that nature um and from my recollection of of the general area itself is there a flood zone deemed by female within a 200 feet or 300 feet radius of the property I I didn't review the FEMA maaps for the project um so I can't say yes or no on that because I know the property itself is not in a flood zone because my ladies and gentlem um because my my my understanding is that there is property within that general area and I think one area in particular is the church that that you cited that is adj that's close to the property that's within that flood zone um no that's in that flood zone um and I do believe that there are further out properties Northwest of the proper that youve mentioned that's also in the flood zone are you aware of that like I said I didn't review the FEMA Maps I know the property itself is not in the flood zone okay um I think I'm done with my questions with Mr R thank you very much Mr thank you thank you Mr R thank you yes I uh Mr chairman I like to call upon Mark Marion our architect Mr Marian would you state your name and spell your last name for us uh Mark with a c Marian m a r i o n and will you raise your right hand and uhe the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do okay and Mr Maran if you could please give the board as Mr Ramo did the benefit of your work at educational experience area of expertise licenses you hold and whether you've been expect uh accepted as professional architect before their boards or courts of the state of New Jersey yeah I'm a registered AR architect you may have to go right into that mic a little bit there I'm a registered architect since uh 1989 I've been self-employed since 91 um I've been operating out of my current location in Ron since 97 my license is current and good and good withstanding I've given expert testimony in Union but I think it was probably in '97 it was a long time ago and uh I've been before couple dozen boards been accepted as a expert witness board stipulates great thank you Mr chairman all right uh Maron if you could please take us through the floor plans and elevations for the project and as I said before if there's exhibits or plans that were not submitted as part of the package uh we'd have to mark those but ones that were previously submitted just identify the the date and the page okay let see how this works okay cool um this plan is dated it's revised 826 624 uh we raised the building and we added a sprinkl not so I'm not too sure what your Dr guys are looking at but I believe that's the drawing that submitted so um we're proposing a three-story multif family building you already know with 11 residential units the building is located within the buildable envelope it complies with with all the setbacks and Building height building coverage and density requirements uh of the NC Zone the building's about 109 ft wide and 68 ft deep and there will will be some parking underneath the building um the 11 units be comprised of three one-bedrooms and eight two bedrooms the one bedroom units are about 660 Square ft and the two bedrooms are all about6 square fet at the ground level see if we can do this the ground level there's access from the parking lot into a Lobby and there are three apartments across the the front of the building to Morris Avenue each of those uh Apartments has a single bedroom a bathroom and a living area some walk-in closet some storage and uh the building is serviced by an elevator there's some utility areas and there's a fire stair and a mail room on the ground floor um there's again there's main entran is under the building off the parking area there is an emergency exit that goes out the front of the building um it's not meant to be it's just for emergencies we have to have two exits and that will comply but it's not not meant to be a main entrance there's no walkways to it it's just for exiting uh going upstairs the second and and third floors are basically identical see we can do this and it's comprised of four units on each floor basically one in each Corner um each has has um each of these two bedroom units has two bedrooms two bathrooms a kitchen and living area and again storage and utility area the elevator goes to all three floors and the fire stair also goes um there's some talk the later we are planning for the stairs to get to the roof so it will the fire stair will provide access to the roof and uh the building does comply with the building height uh 30 it's under 35 ft to the top of the roof uh we are allowed three foot parapets per the township ordinance and we're also allowed to have a stair bulk head uh as long is under 10% per year ordinance that gets us onto the roof or gets emergency people onto the roof uh the building is going to the building and the cover parking area will be fully sprinkler for the building code uh the exteriors is a mix of uh wood panel uh wood siding and smooth synthetic panels with window punctures and kind of a playful massing of the two different finishes like I said before it's a flat roof of parapets there we're going to have the mechanical units small residential style mechanical units for each unit on the roof they'll be properly screened and won't be visible from the road uh and we're providing access to roof through the stairwell and uh like I stated the building it complies with all the setbacks Building height storage number of units and density requirements of the NC Z and I believe you also have a rendering uh uh yes see find that so this is from the largemont really the corner so this main face is facing largemont you can see the driveway coming in off the left so this U is new exip we asked that be marked is 82 Mr chair can I get the date of this exhibit please uh Mr Mr Mar want to provide the date for that I didn't prepare the so I would just put today's date yeah we can mark it as today's I mean my only problem is it has to be 10 days before the year not exhibits you you know that what is that exhibits do not have to be presented 10 days ahead illustrative exhibits can be submitted on the night of hearing evidence that you're asking the board to evate Sor it it doesn't impact the the variances or anything associated with the application I object to this you can object to it my opinion it's evidence you're asking the board to rely on it and to evaluate it objection Mr Li we we'll allow it just because it has been a precent that we have allowed this in the past and it's just presence that we allowed so but your feel again you all have the ability to ask your questions and scrutinize the application and architect appropriate and this is a view view from the large mons side it shows the way the the cars can access underneath the building and from uh review I don't think there were any issues raised in the colar review uh related to architecture so I have no further questions of Mr Maran at this time uh questions from the board Mr K yes thank you um I've forgotten your name I'm sorry um it's Mark Mark Mark Mar um Maran Mr Maran um the the windows as in the illustration appear to be casement windows is that correct yes so is there means of erass out of each of these units except for the the main entrance door there's uh each bedroom has an egress operable egress window in it each bedroom each bedroom thank yeah and then the only other question I have about the architectural plans is that the three single uh one-bedroom units seem to be awfully small I mean 700 ft square feet or smaller in the case of the one unit and I've stayed in hotel rooms that are that size it doesn't appear to be big enough to be an apartment for somebody to live in permanently uh it's appropriate for one lot of wood bedrooms that we have seen yes and okay thank you other questions from the board engineer just one question um the elevation of that first floor is I read I got a small copy of the plan 98.5 um I not don't know that I have the elevation on my drawings I'm looking at I guess it's Mr Remo's yeah I don't have plans but yeah question here you have here can come to this one I know we raised the the uh second floor up to 12T to provide proper clearance underneath the building to satisfy the Fire official I know that right and my my question I guess just winds up being if if it's 8.25 is the first floor elevation which indicates on your plan I think there's some elevations in that parking lot that are even or higher than it should be taking a look at right we concern that we got we got that much water coming in the building um so something I think need to take a little bit yeah I don't believe that's the case I mean I could look at the gra plan but it's my understanding that most of the park the parking lot was lower than the building finished floor that that's I just want to I want to double check those numbers we don't have to do it tonight but I think we want to make sure that's what I remember those numbers right Mr Marion thank you for being here tonight thanks for having a lot of truck will fit underneath that overhang uh um the 12 foot clearance was a request of by the Fire official yes Captain G okay yeah thank you so that's what we provided originally it was 11 and we changed to 12 for his request okay thank you any other questions from the board just had a few questions on my end um you didn't mention a roof um in in the plans and this is just not to be factious but but I really don't see a roof can you explain more about what how the roof looks like it's a flat roof or no roofs are actually flat they're just low pitched and um there can be either roofs either uh drain the water off the outside edges or it have internal roof drains so we haven't determined which way that's going to go but uh there are some parapets that stick above the roof and wrap around to try and change it up the massing and uh the parit will off offer some shielding to uh there'll be probably there's 11 units so there'll be 11 uh condensers on the roof plus probably one for the building in general so 12 small condensers they don't need large condensers for these small units each will have their own so I I noticed that you mentioned about draining and and so right now there there are no plants firmed up yet in terms of what what the appro appropriate location of the drainages are within the roof like no green roof no like no there's no access to the roof planned for any tenants and it's not necessarily green roof usually the roofs nowadays are light colored to reflect uh so um and it's common a roof like this would have multiple roof drains and leaders that lead down through the building and get into the um drainage system okay um just had a curiosity with uh the the style of the building itself um how does that conform to kind of the general area um neighboring buildings things of that nature there's a pretty strong mix there some there's some residential units to the southeast I believe there's some um like not too far the corner of U spra or I'm not exactly don't remember the name of the Road Spruce Spruce thank you um there a very modern uh threeory building there it's quite much bigger than this about twice as big as this building across the street are some very large uh brick buildings and um so the neighborhood has a bunch of it's kind of like a mixed uh um there's a church cou one over I think Northwest if I'm not mistaken uh kind of a traditional Church it look like to my and there's a right across the street is a I believe a a doctor's office it looks like and that's somewhat contemporary so there's a mix of building types and obviously some of the buildings are older along Morris Avenue uh those are my questions so far um any other questions from board members Mr a are you good I'm good uh questions from the public thank you Mr Lee Burman thank you um good evening sir just a few questions to clarify at least in my mind on the parit is there a state requirement or a general architectural requirement that power pits be 3 and A2 ft not 3 feet not no there's um there are some times for fire there are requirements for parapets of adjacent units and like tow houses and things like that uh but there is if uh there is supposed to be shielding on a roof if mechanical equipment is within a certain distance of the edge for uh protection of workers uh but this roof is quite there's plenty of room to keep the mechanical equipment away from the edge of the building the and and the parit was not included in the height is that correct yes it's uh it's in the ordinance that it it doesn't have to be um it's excluded and you're allowed to go three feet higher than the exist than the U somewh in here I have the ordinance if you'd be so kind just to to read that ordinance if you have it for my edification thank you it's um section 17-12 14 exceptions C nothing in this chapter shall prevent the erection above the height limitation of a parit wall or corus extending above such height limit not more than three feet sounds like that's what it says and thank you I appreciate it and in terms of the height of the roof what at the highest pitch obviously it's not exactly flat how high does it go it's I think we've um 34 foot five Ines well the reason I'm asking is your thank I think we just help me if you could on on if you could just back that out a little bit I think you're talking about this Dimension right there yeah what I'm trying to look at is when you add these Dimensions yeah that 34.5 does not does that go to the roof is that the roof what is that that's that's the line of the roof yeah and the up high but my question is what is the highest pitch of the roof in other words how high is the highest pitch of the roof we will be under 35 ft be well do you have any details that shows that no I don't it's haven't been designed precisely we still have to get approval but if it's but you're talking inches if it's over that you need you realize you need a variance but you don't have any detail to show the board that you're under it I'm extremely confident we can get a roof to work under that height ah well it would have been better if you had a drawing that showed it I think but it's up to the board but I I think you need a drawing that shows it but I don't have any other questions thank you to answer your question the line of the average grade of 99 I believe that was the average grade that was provided by Mark well when I asked him he said that you were the person I had to talk to about it yeah well you were talking about the parit and I that's why I'm here there you go thank you very much just for formality sake are there any other questions from the public that are not members of the larg M Association okay hearing I think we could progress to the next witness yes thank you thanks Mark I'd now like to call upon Jerry Nas I I didn't mention him before I wasn't sure if we needed to address the fire but uh guess they they did want that that address so thank you Mr M would just state your name and spell your last name for the record please Gerard NIS and a y l i s Mr n uh do you swear the testimony about to give is the truth the whole truth of nothing but the truth yes I do thank you sir all right uh Mr M if you could please give the board and the public the benefit of your work uh educational experience area of expertise uh that you plan to testify this evening on certainly I have an associate degree in applied science Bergen Community College I have a Bachelor of Science degree from Jersey City State un uh College also in fire science I have a master's in administrative science from Fairley Dickinson University additionally I have an associate in Risk Management designation from the Insurance Institute of America and I took cours workk at seen Hall University to complete that designation additionally I've took I've taken GR graduate courses at the New Jersey Institute of Technology additionally I have certifications from the New Jersey Division of fire safety As A Firefighter 1 firefighter 2 Fire officer 2 fire investigator um live burn fire instructor drill ground instructor should I continue boates okay and and your area of expertise fire safety fire science and fire codes and uh I know you have because we worked on this before but could you please give the board uh whether you've been accepted as an expert in that field before boards or courts of the state of New Jersey yes I've testified before approximately 50 to 60 boards throughout New Jersey Planning and Zoning I've also testified in Superior Court in Bergen County pic County and Hudson County and been accepted as uh an expert in the areas of uh Fire and Fire Safety I've also been published throughout uh the United States I've been an instructor at uh various state emies and local acmis um both in New Jersey and throughout the United States I've also instructed internationally in Canada and the United Kingdom for the International Association of arson investigators with a specialty in fire protection as well as fire related human behavior um in 1997 I was asked by the US fire Administration to coauthor a text on that topic for their degrees at a distance program uh which has been accepted and has been used uh since 1997 in the presentation of that uh degree program I would off offer Mr n as an expert in this field great thank you very impressive so um Mr NIS you know that we received some time ago a report and I you you worked with the captain on other projects in Union Township but briefly take us through the the questions that were raised by uh Captain Guzman along with your response to each of those and I know you've also had an opportunity to speak to uh Captain uh Captain Guzman uh sent me a copy of his revised uh document um I received this in July of this year um and he noted that there were some changes made to the original plans but he still had some concerns that he wanted to address um he wanted he said that the fire department's losing access to all sides of the building with the covered parking area that's planned and there were no height measurements for the covered area so it was determined that it would not meet the minimum 11t clearance for our biggest engine my understanding is the plan PL have been revised and it's now providing 12 ft so it does in fact meet what the requirements would be for the fire department um he said also putting any rig in a covered parking area during fire operations would be putting that rig in a crew in the direct potential collapse Zone um that's anticipating that there would in fact be a collapse however further on we discussed the sprinkler system and the fire protection system and I'll get into the specific new nuances of that in just a moment um the same issues still apply for the ladder truck if only if the only entrance and exits on March month and he talks about power lines uh there's access from mors Avenue side but being that the building was moved forward closer to Mars roughly 30 ft but with uh how busy the street is that poses a whole different set of challenges with safety especially at night and so he said he was concerned about the power and Communications line uh the covered parking area um and he wanted um sprinklers were completely removed uh no EV charging station under the covered roof area Ballard protection for the EV parking spaces one sprinkler system for the entire complex and I'll talk about the sprinkler design in just a moment uh and then he also talked about uh making sure that the fire department connection would be run out to the street uh and he was like asking for it to be next to a fire hydrant so I sent him an email and then I followed that up with a telephone call and we had a very good discussion about these particular aspects that he raised and I thought that they were very very well uh thought out questions from a fire protection point of view first and foremost we discussed the sprinkler system the sprinkler system under the building code would be designed could be designed as what is called an NFP 13r system that's a residential type sprinkler system and the design for that is for four sprinkler heads flowing and it's meant to be an evacuation system meaning that it gives occupants a window of opportunity to self- evacuate in the event of a fire it is not a very robust system and it's again only designed to allow people to escape sh and I recommended to him and I recommended to my client that a better and safer option would be go to a full NFPA 13 type sprinkler system and the difference there is that that system is not just designed for foreheads flowing but the design is based on an area and density requirement and in this case it would be a 0.10 GPM per square foot over a design area of, 1500 square ft so you would have more water flowing covering a greater area and providing a higher level of protection the other big big and most important feature of an NFPA 13 system is that it would require sprinkler protection in all the inter cyal spaces that is the space that is between the ceiling and the floor above if if you recall approximately 10 years ago there was a rather serious fire at a building complex called the Avalon at Edgewater that was a fire that destroyed a building that had 488 um apartment units and it was started by a worker who was trying to solder a pipe and it was in an inter cyal space and the Flames went up and they th that the fire was put out when they threw some water on it they took a break went away and when they got back some 45 minutes later what in fact had happened was that the Flames had continued upward involved all of the inter cyal spaces and ultimately destroyed the entire building there were no sprinklers in the inter cyal spaces at the Avalon at Edgewater it had an NFPA 13r system this system at this building would be more robust and actually exceeds the fire safety requirements of the uniform construction C code by saying that we're going to sprinkler on a wire area we're going to have more robust fire protection and we're going to include sprinkler protection for the inter cyal spaces from my point of view and my experience uh working on sprinkler systems and Fire Protection Systems this is a superior alternative to an NFPA 13r system uh continuing on um and and by the way my client when I explained all of this agreed to do this in this particular system uh building um he raised the uh issue of the location of the fire department connection the code actually specifies that the fire department connection and if you see on the plans it'll say that FDC that's a jargon if you will for the fire service it indicat case that's where the fire department can hook up and the code requires because this will also have stand pipes that it would have to be within 100 ft of a fire hydrant so wherever that is designed for and brought to and in this case um Captain Guzman had asked that it be located away from the building out near Larchmont um we could do that but we'd have to make sure that we have wherever the hydrant is we have to be within 100 ft that's a code requirement and what that's for is so that the fire department when they come they can attach their hose to the fire department connection reinforce the sprinkler system providing even more water to help combat a fire should one in fact be uh burning and again my client did agree to providing that he also raised an uh a concern about the sprinkler system and he didn't want to shut down the entire building if they only had one or two sprinkler heads flowing that were controlling a fire that's one of the big benefits of sprinkler protection is that only one or two heads need to go off to stop a fire and control it additionally it would have what's called a monitored feature so that when the water begins to flow it trips what is called a flow switch that flow switch sends a signal to to the fire alarm control panel which in turn transmits an alarm to a monitored location so they call the fire department to make sure that they respond as quickly as possible it's a very desirable feature of uh of sprinklers and so while the sprinklers are actively engaged and putting water on the fire a signal has already been sent now to the fire department the other nice thing is because it's immediately containing and controlling the fire the benefit it is is that they would use less water than a non-s sprinkler fire additionally if this happened in an inter cyal space the sprinklers would activate um if this was a 13r system we wouldn't realize that benefit and the fire could burn uncontrolled for a period of time so we're going to address that by putting sprinklers there as well I think that that's a very Superior approach to fire protection he wanted to make sure that they could isolate individual units without having to shut down the entire building that's a function of sprinkler design and can be incorporated into the sprinkler design for this uh project and that is so that you have control valves at each uh entrance to the apartment unit but what you would do is you would have a single fire department connection that feeds all of the units so it can supply maximum water but enables the fire department to contain and control how much water is Flowing to a particular apartment by shutting off that control valve and not endangering the remainder of the building and effect leaving the sprinklers for the rest of the building in service which again I view as a very uh desirable feature of the fire protection system I spoke with my client about the benefit of uh and code requirement actually for ballards and impact protection for the EV area uh and they uh immediately said yes that's something that uh we're going to do regardless of whether or not it was required by a code it's just a very common sense type of thing to do um I want to make sure I covered all the other areas that he brought up fire department uh with respect to the EV charging station under the covered roof I I am not sure I didn't see clearly enough on the design so I don't know if the EV charging station is under the covered roof or not um yeah the EV was moved outside so I have been advised that the EV charging station has been moved out from underneath um just so everyone is aware there will be sprinkler protection under the covered roof as well so if a vehicle catches fire the sprinklers will activate and they will try to control the fire from spreading to other vehicles and again we'll have the benefit of detection activating with the flow switch so that we can know that there is in fact uh the fire happening and the fire being controlled um the last item that uh I discussed with Captain Guzman was his request about um power lines telephone lines and so forth and I asked him why did he want that and he said well what if I had to set up the aerial in order to get to the roof and I said and this is where I drew upon my experience as a career firefighter in Atlantic City where I was assigned to a truck company and I said you know one of the most dangerous things that I ever did in my life was climb an area ladder in the middle of winter with a wind blowing off the Atlantic Ocean and uh some spray hitting the ladder turning it into a icy um situation and so I took from that and I did a lot of studying when I went through college as well as later in life in the fire service and I came to the realization that there are better ways to access a roof in the interest of firefighter safety I have long been an advocate of using interior stairs and a bulkhead door to access the roof rather than trying to climb a ladder to go up or to come down particularly owing to things like Darkness foul weather cold weather wind and so forth and Captain Guzman agreed he said he would appreciate it and he felt that that was a better alternative uh over having an aerial ladder to have to get to and access the roof they don't have to do it all that frequently but they may have to because we'll have condenser units and equipment and things like that on the roof this provides a safe way for the firefighters to get to the roof to access that equipment and contain any emergency that may occur I'll also comment briefly on the U the parit wall uh I would be a proponent of putting that parit wall in and again for a safety factor to the firefighters uh so that you have some sort of fall protection uh so that the firefighters don't get too close to the edge and fall off um that would be a horrible horrible situation so I I think that that was a wise move to put the par ofits in there and that we have these uh bulkheads so that we can get to the roof and not have to worry about trying to climb an areial lad so um putting on my firefighter hat I've been a volunteer firefighter for 50 years I was a technical book editor for fire engineering for 5 and a half years and I worked with some of the leading authors in the country uh on firefighting tactics strategies and things to do and I communicate with them on a regular basis and uh these are the types of discussions that we have and so I would St my reputation and my background and my life's work on the recommendations I made and I'm thankful that Captain Gman agreed with me on these things and said he said that these were makes sense recommendations as well and I said I'm going to give them to my client and I can testify today that my client agreed to everything that I had discussed with Captain Guzman thank you uh Mr Nas uh no further questions at this time Mr chairman uh questions from the board Mr NIS yes for the roof access how I I don't hear so well so I'm just going to so for the roof access how what are you what are we doing with that how's that working that's um the the stair Tower is a 2hour rated fire tower okay so that even if there's a fire on the and say an apartment or a hallway you can get into the stair Tower and climb the stairs and you're protected with a 2hour um enclosure so that you can walk up the stairs to the roof okay thank you if you look at some buildings that have uh burned out in the foreseeable past the one that struck me the most was the maral paper mill fire in Elwood Park after that complete complex burned to the ground and you drove along Route 80 you saw these towers which were the stair towers that were still there and it kind of proved the point thank sure any questions for uh other questions from the board engineer I had a question just to clarify the comment with regards to transferring overhead lines to to buried lines can you confirm that basically what is in the plan is actually not bur lines I'm sorry could you read you you you glance very quickly on on the on the comment with regards to making the power and telephone lines buried underground MH and I didn't get the sense of a confirmation if those lines are actually going to be buried in this application so can you confirm that I did not recommend that they be buried um I think that they don't have to to be and I would uh recommend to my client that they proceed with using the stair Tower and the bulkhead so that we have firefighter access I don't really see a a need or a benefit of varying the uh Power or Communications lines when was that recommendation made by you um I spoke to Captain Guzman on make sure I got my dates here correct I spoke to him on October 25th October 25th yes okay and I had email correspondence with him on uh I'm sorry I correct that September 24th and 25th and our telephone conversation was September 25th apologize I thought it was October so the conversation was made on September 25th yes okay okay I think I think the main issue that I have here is that the coler's letter that is dated on August 30th 2024 on page two and it says on the second paragraph the changes requested by the union fire department were included on the revised plans including the proposed hydrant enlargement Terrace the fire department connection and transfer from overhead to buried electrical and telephone wiring between utility polls 64757 un and 63680 un that was in August that was was in August I can clarify that after uh discussions with Captain Guzman that's when we brought Jerry on board to look at it and look for an even safer way including the upgrade to the r13 rather than r13 R and then the the bulkhead okay so that means then there's no no underground power and telephone correct and and he's the expert but in my meetings and discussions with Captain Guzman that was because they were thinking of coming in on lch M and fighting the fire from uh the ladders off of Larchmont up up onto the roof whereas now that would be done by that secure bulkhead uh I I don't have any further questions question yes go ahead sir if you're operating the stick mhm you want a full scrub of the building right you don't think that it would be better to have underground wires no I you don't think that's an obstacle I have to be honest with you I wouldn't try to fight this from the exterior because the sprinklers will be controlling the fire that means that the um the atmosphere in an apartment based on fire tests that that were conducted by Factory mutual and UL demonstrate that the temperature would drop from approximately 400° down to about 100 to 120° and that the fire department could come in with a hose Lin off of a standpipe and do any type of mop up remembering that the sprinklers would still be operating um and there wouldn't really be a need to be operating off of ladders but sir aren't all fires incident dependent of what's Happening I just I'm baffled that why you wouldn't want the wires to be on the ground I'm just powerful I I don't see a a need to try and fight a fire from the exterior I really believe that using this the built-in fire protection is a superior alternative to trying to do manual firefighting from the exterior okay thank you I and I I will just say that one of the things that I did create when I went to work for factory Mutual back in 1987 was I created a training program that is distributed worldwide actually it's called fighting fires and sprinkled buildings okay thank you sure Mr chairman yes just want to um Steve you may want to liability yeah run the power line underground yeah I recall that and again that's before we get Jerry on I think our group doing that not do that we'll make a revision to the plan Y no problem so my follow question is I'm trying to visualize and not a firefighter can can we show basically the the the floor plan and and and basically showcase how a firefighter would basically go in and fight the fire instead of going from the outside sure the um and I want the do you want the floor plan up there or not no I I can just explain it to you I I think easier um a fire in in an apartment is a contained uh area they have 1 hour rated firewalls uh between the units and also the corridor that the you use to get from say a stair or an elevator to the apartment there is also a fire rated door on the exterior as well keep in mind that if there is a fire that the sprinklers are now active and flowing water on the fire driving the temperature down so what the fire department then has to do is just open the door make entry yes it's going to be hot it's going to be about 100 to 120° but it's a lot better than having a fire rolling over your head quite honestly and that they can then make entry and knock down a fire if in fact um there is still a fire burning that hasn't been fully extinguished or knocked down by the sprinkler system keeping in mind that most residential fires happen in one of two places either the kitchen or a bedroom so are you saying that basically a firefighter would basically go in the typical entrance to an apartment basically to fight the fire yes and and keep in mind that what they would do um there is a pipe that is connected to the suppression system it's it's called the stand pipe um and that is located in the stair Tower so that the fire department could bring their hose in hook up to the standpipe stretch their hose line be at the front door and the minute that the door is open they have water on their hose line enabling them to go in and knock down any remaining fire and where's the stand pipe located the stand pipe would be loc the connection would be located in the stair Tower and that's to provide a level of protection again for the the firefighter to hook up before they get onto the fir floor and just for clar and maybe the AR would so the stair level would be the common stair level the right above the common area the the architect is indicating that that is correct yeah wait you you're can have just for the I'm not an architect so I don't yeah want to it why don't you pull up the floor like to just have Mark Marin come back and show that floor plan yeah thank you so this is the core the core of the building uh which has the elevator a utility room and a fire stair and you can see there's a door there so within the fire stair is where saying the stand pipe would be located at and that's where they could Ascend to the floor in question hook up their hoses at that point open this door to the stair and then get into the common area and then go enter um whichever unit they need to enter with their hose is there a stamp pipe on each floor I believe so yeah I have a question for Mr Naylor yes uh Mr Naylor would how would you anticipate uh a resident vacating the building if their apartment I'm going to come a little closer again I how would you expect the resident to EV vacate the building if their apartment was on fire here you again back to the mic here M you can go to this one if you want keep in mind that in addition to the sprinklers there will also be early warning notification devices that is a smoke alarm or smoke detect depending on whether or not it's a single station or a device that's attached to a system there will also be carbon monoxide alarms in the dwelling as well so the resident or occupant will have advanced warning even before the sprinkler activates that there's a fire and they can s safely self- evacuate from the build uh from the apartment you did not expect them to have to use the egress window then I can you would not expect them to have to use the window to get out they wouldn't I would never use a window to try and make an escape the design of the code which has evolved over many years is such that um these Advanced warnings are designed so people can make their way out of their apartment into a protected hallway into a stair Tower that's providing a 2hour uh level of protection so that they can get down and out of the building any other questions from the board okay hearing none uh questions from the public Mr L thank you Mr Le good evening sir good evening interesting presentation thank you I I will just apologize if you could speak a little loud I I really have some difficulty hearing no one has ever accused me of being too loby F in my life so I'm very excited about that and I will raise my voice to make sure that you could hear me okay thank you very much you're very you're very very welcome so um there's really there's only one stairwell doesn't the code require two means of Ingress and egress not just one well there I believe that there are there is a regular stair Tower and there's an emergency stair Tower as well that would provide the second means of but again I will defer to the architect on that issue um particularly is for a building like this four units per floor three stories maximum one stair is required in the building code okay thank you now the um you indicate you indicated that the hallway could get up to 120° is that is that what you said the the fire of the temperature in the fire department could reach 120° um even with the sprinkers flowing yes well you said the temperature in the fire department you mean the temperature in the hallway right is that what you mean temperature in the fire apartment oh in the fire apartment correct how about the stairs what would you anticipate that the temperature in the stairs can be during a full-blown fire what would you anticipate ambient temperature so you're telling me that it would not be the same as the apartment it would be a separate it would it would not be it would not be 120° it would be lower is that correct be much lower whatever the ambient temperature is how much smoke would we anticipate would be in those stairs during a full blown fire how much smoke would be in there in the stair Tower I would not expect much smoke at all the smoke would be in the apartment and it might make its way out to the hallway but I don't conceivably see a lot of smoke into the stair Tower however this again is why we have a Stairway that leads up to the bulkhead and the fire department could open the stair Tower door at the top of the bulkhead to allow for natural ventilation so that the smoke can rise and come out of the building um aren't fire TR aren't um what do you call buckets on fire trucks used for rescue in addition to firing fighting fires uh in some cases I've seen that done yes I don't really recommend it I think it's safer to use a stair Tower have you ever used a bucket in your lengthy experience to rescue people in Atlantic City when you were a firefighter no didn't have to you didn't have to have you ever SE have you ever had your partners firefighters do the same have they ever done that there in Atlantic City used the bucket to rescue people uh I have seen buckets used to try and rescue people however more times often than that that is used to uh deliver massive Master streams to a building that's completely on fire I understand it's not something that the fire department prefers to do to well the fire department has a bucket truck they have a they have a lad of truck that would be more than adequate for handling this and they have bucket trucks right Y and what you're doing by not buring the wires is you're not allowing effectively you're precluding those potential methods of fighting fires from occurring instead you're insisting by not burring the wires that the stairs be used that's what the net result is yes I am using my talent skills and abilities based on 50 years of experience in fighting fires and identifying what I believe is the safest more practical way to evacuate victims from a fire yes ex except when that's not feasible a very severe fire many people have to be rescued under those circumstances you might have to have two methods of evacuation and not just one do you agree with all due respect I don't share your opinion so but what would be wrong with just following the fire the captain's request that the power and communication lines be buried why not just do it to make sure that all possible Avenues of rescue and firefight are available rather than limiting it to one why wouldn't you do that as a professional I don't believe it's necessary I think it's a waste you so it's a wa it's a waste of what waste of resources in order to set up an aerial device you have to have the driver who has to out set the Jacks and The Outriggers out so that there's stabilization so that you can lift it you have to make sure that you're set at the right angle so that you can get to the uh to the window or to whatever area um it's a very involved process it's not simply oh throw the ladder up and here it is it takes a it takes time and the fact of the matter so for example when we test an area ladder there is a um a test that's done on the aerial device called raise rotate and extend and you have to do that within two minutes time 2 minutes is a long time when you have somebody in a fire building it's a a lot smarter it's a lot more practical to take a person who's in an apartment whether there's smoke or fire or whatever the situation is and bring that person out to a hallway and to a stair Tower to bring them down than trying to wait until a aerial Tower is in position and hope and hope that they can safely get out of there the other thing is many people are afraid of heights and that's well they're probably a fate of fire too but they can become combative and not want to get on to the aerial device right and so quite frankly it's always better and been my experience take them down the stairs when you said it was a waste of resources what resources were you talking about I just want to make sure I understand firefighting resources those Personnel that are trying to set up that aerial device would be a much better use and utility going up the stairs and going into the fire apartment don't they train for this isn't that isn't this part of their training in order to stabilize the truck so that they can raise the ladder and raise the buckets isn't this part of their regular routine training firefighters are trained to raise ladders yes yes and um did you did a lot of talking about what you talked about with the chief and then you related to the board what the chief said to you um did the chief say that he's going to revise again his letter to indicate that he's okay with everything you said are we going to get a new letter I put it in writing to him I sent it to my my client as well and I put it in writing he didn't send me back a revised letter okay so you you sent him a letter telling him how you perceived the conversation to go and he never sent back a letter saying that he's revising his demands is did he he did not did he tell you he's not he's going to do it he did not did you ask him I said that I would send him a memo that summarized our conversation and if he had any questions that he could reach out to me he did not the letter that's revised and you know the one thing that I would say about the chief he doesn't put dates on his letters so it's a little hard to to refer to this but the one that says revised which is the one you were talking about right correct it's it says and I'm quoting here ufd is now losing all access to all sides of the building with the covered parking lot area that's planned did you do you agree with the fire chief when he says they are now losing all access do you agree with them uh well the building hasn't been built yet so they can't be using it right now losing l no no no the the quote was let let me read the quote again okay and you could see it if you want it said ufd is now losing not using losing access losing access that's right and that's what the fire chiefs do you agree with the fire chief's assertion that now the ufd is losing all sides and always in caps uh of the building with the covered parking area do you agree with the fire chief that that's true I would question him what does he characterize as losing access could you set up a ground ladder the answer is yes there is sufficient room in the setbacks so that a ground ladder could be set up if they needed to gain access but I would also come back to you and say that it's better and safer to use the built-in fire protection and use the construction features of the building to provide Better Life Safety opportunities do you agree with me that there are occasions where what's easier and better doesn't isn't available be course of a fire and option b needs to be resorted to um I unless I know what the circumstances are I'm I wouldn't Hazard a guess the bottom how many times in your career as a firefighter how how many years were you a firefighter in Linux City by the way I was a I've been a firefighter for 51 years in the 51 years is it your testimony that you never once took a bucket and went on a roof in order to fight a fire no you've done it not a bucket did you take the ladder and go to a roof on in Atlantic City to fight a fire yes I did and and and and and there were stairs that were available when you did that but for whatever reason the the roof was was was optimal under the circumstances correct actually it was a non-s sprinklered building and the fire had gained control of the St Tower is it your testimony that the only time firefighters fight fires from the roof is when a building is UNS sprinkled is that your testimony I I'm I'm missing your could you rephrase that question I better understand it will I appreciate that is it your testimony that the only time that firefighters should use the roof in order to fight a fire is when a building is UNS sprinkled no that is not what I'm saying what I am saying is that there are times when you may need to get to the roof a safer way to get to the roof is up a fire rated stair Tower as opposed to trying to crime an aerial or use an aerial bucket the um the chief also said in his revised letter that um putting I'm quoting putting any rig and a rig is a firet Tru right that's yes putting any rig in the covered parking area during the fire operations would be putting that rig and its crew in the direct potential collapse Zone you heard him say that right that's what he said right right yes or no that is what he said and you believe that because you've changed the sprinkler system that's no longer a factor is that what you're saying it's much less of a factor yes I do not think that the building would be subject to collapse potential you're telling me that with the revised sprinkler system collapse is impossible can't happen I didn't say that and you're twisting the words what I said was it's not probable he also wrote that the same issue will apply for the ladder truck if the only entrance or exit is on Larch open pen which has power and communication lines running across the driveways rendering the ladder useless from the side do you agree with him that the power lines would render would render the ladder useless from that side do you agree with his contention no I do not because they could back the ladder into the driveways Drive aisles and set up the aerial if they needed to get up to the roof using that but I don't foresee a circumstance when that would be necessary so the fire chief was wrong I didn't say that I said you asked me what do I think I do not think it would be necessary I asked you if you agreed with him no there is no reason from a firefighting perspective why the request that the power and communication lines be placed underground there's no reason for from a firefighting perspective that that can't be done is there probably not but from a from a practical point of view it's better from a firefighting tactical point of view to use the built-in fire protection or if you bury them then you have both options available and you don't have to pick one if one the other is required right I would always opt to use the built-in fire protection the um sprinkler system isn't it true that the plum do you are you familiar with with the plumbing code in New Jersey as it relates to sprinkler systems uh I have to correct you there New Jersey does not allow plumbers to install sprinklers that is under NFPA 13 which is the sprinkler code and you have to be a certified fire sprinkler contractor to install them I appreciate the correction is it true that the sprinkler system in New Jersey needs to have a separate autonomous line in most cases yes the difference is in certain circumstance ances such as limited area sprinkler systems uh certain basement sprinklers they can be tied off of the domestic line however in a building such as this it would require it to have a separate water feed in order to supply the sprinkler system does the utility drawing presented by the applicant show an independent water supply for the sprinkler system to your knowledge that would be done as part of the sprinkler plan that is submitted during the construction phase the fire chief also said that you should recommended that you Loop in another hydrant uh placed on lman Street on the lachman street side by the driveway area do you believe that the fire chief is wrong in making that recommendation as well I believe I testified that wherever the fire department connection and that's got to be agreed to by the fire department is where that fire department connection and a hydrant has to be within 100 ft it may be on Larchmont it may be on Mars it's all part of the design which is done through the plan review process when the construction drawings are submitted so when the fire chief said the lman side you think he was premature and that more information was required before that determination was made is that what you're saying no what I'm saying is is that is an element that is considered during the construction [Music] phase and I don't have any further questions for you thank you sir thank you Mr leave you're welcome thank you are there any other questions from the public that is not a member from the large Bond Association I I did have a couple followup questions and it might we might have to should me back to the architect stay up there mark thank you um there was a mention that there was a low chance of collapse um of the building itself under circumstances of fire what what can you say to substantiate that um in my town of Bergenfield on December 13th 2005 we had a natural gas line that was um compromised by a contractor the natural gas fed along the pipe that went into the building and the gas filled the building and the building uh exploded and there was a collapse a portion of that building so if you have a very unusual set of circumstances like that is it conceivable it could happen yes to narrow this this down I think my question really pertains to a fire that exists within the building that results in a collapse what would you say is the probability of collapse uh almost zero I um I don't mean to be redundant but it's it's really not conceivable knowing what the construction is what the fire protection is the response of the fire department to get there the fact that it's going to have early warning devices that initiate an alarm um I don't see a foreseeable uh means for why the building would sustain such damage that it would result in collapse I will defer to the architect though Mark just use the mic please he knows more than me but um sprinklers are there to save people right so the main goal is to get the people out of a building in a dangerous situation into a safe place the building actually somewhat secondary and um so it's all about time and that's why we rate certain assemblies within a building for hours it's that's how they're rated it's like this wall will stay in place for an hour or two hours or three hours and we have different assemblies that we use to compartmentalize a building and we do that primarily to save people but I will also say that and I I thought I covered this rather carefully if this was a 13r system I would agree 100% with the architect but I also know from my experience with Factory mutual and and I had responsible ability for buildings that were worth hundreds of millions of dollars and our testing and our research demonstrated that a fully functioning adequately uh supplied sprinkler system can prevent structural collapse from occurring and you're basically testifying that that regardless of whatever the construction material the building itself how it's structured the building as represented with an NFPA 13 system would not collapse no now I will also say I am not saying that that's 100% because if I have a gas explosion that blows a part of a building or if I have a a plane that crashes into a building or a truck that crashes into a building um that's not something that is foreseeable or foreseen uh just want to make sure there's any other questions any other questions from the public that is not from the larg M Association okay so I think we're we're done with this witness how however we only have 3 minutes left that's that's fine so I think what we'll do is we'll carry this over to the January 23rd meeting considering that the association here I don't think we'll need to do it with notice um Mr Pasqual do we need to do a motion to to carry this over yeah you should do a motion to all right can I get a motion on the floor to carry uh the the hearing for application watchong developers 105 Elmont Road uh can I get a motion to carry it over without notice Mr chairman I'd like to move that we carry over the uh application number 20244 watch Young developers to the January 23rd meeting where we can hear the rest of the testimony from the applicant and any testimony from the the public excuse me Mr chairman I know you didn't vote I'm sorry but would you confirm that the you'll bring all Witnesses back on that meeting we'll we'll see yeah they should be yeah they I think they have to be well I I think we'll we'll we'll deal with that you two will deal with that alongside with Council here let's get through the motion and then and that's yeah 7:00 no further notice correct is there a second to the motion second seconded by Mr Frank uh roll call please yes yes yes yes yes yes Mr chairman I move we we adjourn just be just before I acknowledge the motion um just to close the loop on on that what I would just expect is that just both parties work with our Council as well again I don't know if there's an opportunity uh well there could be basically with you bringing the witnesses back there is obviously a way for you to provide more information through your Witnesses so basically discretion that's great and I'd like to again thank the board the public and board professionals and wish everyone a safe and happy holiday season yes happy holidays everyone have a good thank you Mr chairman members of the board I thank you yeah thank you all right there's a motion to adjourn by Mr Cohan is there a second seconded by Miss K all those in favor say I I I meaning adjourn 10:00