e e e e good evening the meeting of the March 28 2024 planning board meeting is is called M rage would you please uh recite the Sunshine Law please pursuant to the open public meetings law notice of this meeting stating the time and place was Satisfied by the filing of an annual notice with the local source and the St Ledger newspapers of General circulation within the township of Union and posted on the bulletin board of the township of Union Municipal Building roll call please Mr Cohan here Mr East here Mr Lee here M Espinosa Mr Miller here M Perkins mayor figorito commit Bowser here Mr fr here miss con chairman Johnson here we have a quorum all right um from before I get into the resolutions uh we have a very aggressive agenda today we have five applications that have to be reviewed and we have until 10:00 to get it done and I just want to give everyone here our assurances that we are going to try to get through all five however because of the 3our time parameter we may not have we may run out of time for tonight so I just wanted to give tell you that from the very beginning because I know we have a lot of folks here and I I don't want to conven them if if we can avoid it okay all right uh resol could I have a motion for a resolution for the Union County Savings Bank please so move second second roll call Mr Callan abstain Mr yes Mr Lee yes Mr Miller yes commit Bowser yes Mr fr yes chairman Johnson yes may I have a motion please to approve the board agenda minutes for January of 2024 and February of 2024 I so move the uh approval of the meeting minutes for January and February 2024 second second roll call please Mr Cohan abstain Mr East yes Mr Lee yes Mr Miller yes comman Bowser yes Mr fr yes chairman Johnston yes all right uh application could the attorney for application 2023 Corporation please come forward please good evening sir would you please identify your for the record please good evening Mr chairman board members my name is Michael kosy and I'm an attorney with the law firm of green bomb row Smith and Davis our firm represents B Corp the applicant this evening um and the owner of the property located at 2735 Route 22 West the applicant filed a application for preliminary and final site plan approval with variance relief and a minor subdivision approval we were last before the board on January 25th 2024 and this a continuation of that hearing um since that hearing we received the engineers review letter dated February 20th 2024 and with me this evening is a representative of the applicant who is prepared to answer any questions that the board may have with respect to that okay please call your first witness please um ammanu Patel good evening Mr Patel you please raise your right hand Council would you please wear them in um can you please State and spell your name name for the record hansu Patel h i m a n s u p a t l do you swear that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do and if I can just interrupt you for a second I see we I forgot to swear in my our engineer councel would you please swear in our our engineer please please raise your do you swear that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes thank you Mr Patel please Mr O please proceed thank you um Mr Patel um are you here on behalf of B Corp yes okay and Bop Corp had filed the application um and has appeared at the prior two hearings on this matter yes okay have you received and reviewed the engineers letter of February 20th 2024 yes you understand the conditions that are within that that letter yes I do and Papu accepts those conditions yes all of conditions do you have any questions regarding no Mr chairman that's okay questions from the board Mr chairman question yes Mike so um Mr Patel I apologize I wasn't here at the January hearing but I I was here at the first hearing when we first received and reviewed the application and and I wondered at that time uh but never asked the question because I knew that the application was going to be revised want to ask the question now is there a reason why the parking dedicated to the growing facility is going to be on the lower floors and the parking for the hotel on the upper floors and not vice versa just operationally it's easier for the cultivation um employees to be you know closer to the entrance way since there's going to be B metrics and a lot of security for them to go through so it was just more operationally workflow reasons okay so let me just express my personal feeling about the application my view is that this is an this is a hotel and the cultivation facility is ADD being added onto it as opposed to the opposite so it just seems to me like the the convenience of the parking deck should be first for the hotel and secondarily for the growing facility well for security reasons uh it would be more uh you know more secure for them to have to go less distance to their vehicles if they're employees of the cultivation where versus with the hotel guest there I think it was we discussed this in last last meeting is that guests are going to be going to the front desk to check in and then they're either going to have a valet service that's going to take the car and park it in the lot or if they don't want to pay for the valley they they will go themselves parking a lot and there's going to be a dedicated stair wheel that goes to their levels of parking and then goes right out to the closest exit to the hotel lobby but there's still a pretty great walk from the from the deck to the hotel uh once you once you're in the stairwell it's it's just the driveway that separates the two buildings so it's not a significant walk right because I believe there was testimony that the guests would come check in if they did not want to pay for the valley service um they could park their cars and having already checked in they would be able to access a hotel from the side basically because they would have the KE and they wouldn't have their luggage at that time so it would just be walking since they've already checked in their luggage will already have been that well that was just operationally that's the work the flow that we were kind of Designing for any further questions from the board any questions from the public Mr chairman uh I just want to clarify uh there's a continuous reference in the February 20th 2024 letter uh that uh these various conditions will be satisfied by a certain time period following quote unquote the approval I just want to be clear that the approval the date of the approval will be 45 days following the publication of the resolution of approval okay and that's by Statute right Mr outer uh yes so after the resolutions memorialized uh notice is required to be published and then 45 days from there is an opportunity to challenge s okay oh any questions from the public have a meeting the fire department you can mention go Ahad sir would you be opposed to have a meeting with the fire department there are some questions with regards to a the fire hydrant in the back of the building to be on a loop uh possibly a driveway with a uh siren activated gate uh the enunciator for the fire alarm to be at at the front door yeah we're not opposed to uh meeting fire department also the fire department connection they don't want on the building they want uh yeah willing to accommodate you meet with Chief and Fire official Gman we'll try to accommodate them as as much as possible yeah okay that's that's in the minutes okay okay any other questions from the board thank any other questions from the public Mr hosy if we approve this tonight um we'll probably do to at a condition it will be um a meeting with the J with the um Union fire department okay thank you okay I'd like to take a mo a motion to approve application 2023 3-12 bapoo Corporation so moved second second roll call Mr Callan abstain Mr East see yes or no no Mr Lee yes Mr Miller yes minman Bowser yes Mr fr yes chairman Johnson yes okay thank you very much thank you all right uh could the attorney please for Creative Property Management come forward please good evening Mr Hil how are you good and yourself good thank you very much good evening uh chairman of board members members of the public stepen H representing the applicant creative Property Management um Community Access unlimited uh there's actually two cases on tonight they're call them sister applications but we're going to uh according to the agenda proceed with uh the lot one block 1803 uh 1740 Earl Street uh this is an application for a community residence um I'm I'm sure you've read the report from kers Community residences mandated by law permitted in all residential zones to being single family residential Zone the property was acquired several years ago from the township of Union Community Access has many locations throughout Town including a number in the township of Union and what they provide is is housing for people with developmental disability again it's been recognized it's prided use in all residential zones throughout the State the statute that was cited by uh Mr Hatter in his review so uh as an overview the the okay sorry as an overview what uh what the applicant did is work with its professionals to design the homes uh with a couple of things in matter and that's why we're before the board uh we did want to have the house setback a ways so we're seeking relief for having the house back further we thought that would add a little more privacy to the area it's a deep lot also we wanted to have a fence in front for to just to have uh know some attractive uh to the front under the plan it didn't have I think it just had a fence we'd like to put it a decorative type fence uh the like an aluminum type fence and then to we by pushing the house back it um there's steep slopes uh but well our engineer will will touch on that so that's that's the extent of the application again Union Township uh sold the property transferred the property to uh Community Access for the very purpose of developing in accordance with uh our proposal here so that's an overview of the of the application and what we'd like to do is we'd like to start with uh uh Matthew Potter from Potter Architects to give the board an overview of what the house is going to look like uh and then we'll move on to our representative from Community Access to explain a little bit about the goals and and efforts of Community Access with people with disabilities move on to our engineer and then our planner so good evening Mr Potter good evening please uh where in the witness please can you please State and spell your name for the record Matthew Potter M A TT h e w p o t t r and do you can you keep your hand up please all right Mr Potter if you could please give the board I'm sorry yeah I'm not done can you keep your hand up please um do you swear the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you all right Mr Potter if you could please give the the board the benefit of your work educational experience area of expertise any licenses you hold Steve which one of these is USB it we gave three drive it should say the address of the property or lot and block each of them has a tag on good evening my name is Matthew Potter and I'm here this evening representing Potter Architects LLC located at 410 Colonial Avenue uni New Jersey I'm a fourth generation architect of the Potter family my great-grandfather stepen J Potter started Potter architects in 1932 I received a bachelor of architecture from the New Jersey Institute of Technology in 2016 sumuk kumlade and received New Jersey architectural license in the October of 2018 I am also licensed in the state of New York and a member of the American Institute of Architects I have over 14 years of architectural experience working a high-end residential commercial public transportation and master planning projects I have lectured and participa on panels at the AA Center of architecture New York the zst program at Harvard University and the institute for sustainable infrastructure in Washington DC based on my credentials I hope you'll accept me as an expert architect Witness this will be my first time presenting before this board thank you Mr Potter there's one thing you are licensed I trust as an architect in New Jersey yes okay thank you New Jersey and New York we'd like to move for the witness if he could be accepted as an expert in field of architecture so order okay please proceed all right so Mr Potter if you could please take us who we're going to move first to to to the uh overview of the home that's going to be constructed here and if there exhibits that were previously submitted in the package uh just identify what they are if it's a new uh item then just identify it and we can have it marked okay so I would like to start with directing your attention to the rendering on display here your A1 then sorry we'll mark that rendering is A1 A1 uh this is going to be at proposed project is at 1740 Earl Street lot one block 1803 here in Union uh as I stated this rendering was done by po architects in January 11th 2024 the architecture plans that we'll be discussing were also prepared by part Architects and are dated July 26 2023 and they were last revised on January 11th 2024 the architectural plans will consist of two pages um as stated I am intimately familiar with the architectural design of this project and have been involved in development of the project designed from the beginning so the first lot as Steve mentioned these are sister projects is a proposed twostory woodframe residence similar to standard residential construction in Union Township the building footprint is 72 feet wide by 37 ft front to back the proposed architectural design includes complete barrier-free Ada design and including direct access to and from the bedrooms bathrooms laundry and kitchen the residents will have a natural gas fired emergency generator in the rear of the building each residence will be fully protected by a fire suppression system the residents will also have a combination for fire and smoke detection safety signaling systems both horn and stropes the systems will help ensure the safety and Welfare of the occupants and the surrounding neighborhood so just give me a moment to pull up the plans please so as you can see on the bottom left we'll be starting at the basement level there will be a two-car garage measuring 24 ft Deep by 23 and 1/2 ft wide the garage garage loads from the rear of the property creating a walk out drive out rear loading garage the building sighting stes advantage of the existing grade conditions which front to back as Steve mentioned you also notice the angle of the residence to the street which again is an opportunity work with the existing topography and limit soil disturbance the other exterior access point to the basement includes a foyer stairs up to the first level unfinished basement areas and designated storage areas mechanic equipment such as air handlers hot water heaters will be located the unfinished basement as well the total ceiling height of the basement will be 8 ft so in the second here we have the proposed first floor plan which is adjacent after directly after the basement the first floor will consist of four bedrooms closet areas Ada kitchen dining room Pantry Ada laundy room two Ada bathrooms one Ada Powder Room two communal Gathering rooms and a FR front entry foyer in addition there's an exterior covered deck area the ceiling height will also be 8T on the bottom right moving up to the second floor there will be a finished and unfinished space the finished space will include one ADA Bathroom one office and one closet space The Unfinished area will allow for an expansion for two bedrooms Gathering area one future Ada powder room and storage spaces the ceiling height of the second floor will also be 8T on the second floor there will also be a ladder to access a ladder for servicing utilities such as HVAC systems lighting and electrical so the moving to the exterior the total Building height will be 32 ft above the average exterior finished grade for exterior fac ODS of the of the residents will be finished as follows siding will be vinyl clapboard just go back to the rendering uh will be vinyl clapboard the shutters will be made American Vinyl color as per the rendering as most of these materials are uh roof by GF Timberline windows are going to be Anderson 400 series which are insulated Windows color as per rendering gutters and down spouts which are white aluminum dry stacked stone veneer cultur which would be cultured stone Echo Ridge Country Field Stone by athenia Supply the trim and Boards of the FAS and window casings will be White Aluminum color as per rendering exterior deck areas will be TX composite decking slate gray exterior railings will be by RDI Colors by rendering window accents will be aluminum exterior columns will be perac crash structural Corner Bo boards will be vinyl corner post for vinyl siding white please note that the manufacturers the exterior finished products may change at any time of the construction but the appearance style and colors will remain consistent with our proposed renderings the trash and recyclables will be as follows there will be a pad in the rear of the residence for trash and recyclables exterior exterior trash containers will be available as shown on the site plan which we'll see later on utilities will be as follows water electric and natural gas heating and cooling will be provided by standard Zone forced air systems exterior condensers to be located on the ground again behind the residents hidden from public view storm drainage will be located directly underground in retainage areas which we'll later see exterior building lighting will be located at the front and rear doors of the grade and main floor areas down light directional so not project horizontally into adjacent properties and will be surface illumination only in conclusion the residents will be constructed in strict conformance with all appical building codes and ordinances included but not limited to requirements outlined by the New Jersey Development Department of devel Developmental disabilities the New Jersey UCC barrier-free code 2021 New Jersey IRC and New Jersey state requirements for Community residences this ends my presentation if there are any questions I'd be more than happy to answer them at this time thank thank you Mr Potter questions from the board sir where's the fire department connection um that we're going to get to that with our engineer other questions from the board Mike Mr chairman Mr Mr parter could you go back to the uh floor plan yes and enlarge the center section proposed first Flor [Applause] planning so there will be four bedrooms as you testified what will be the resident capacity of for those four bedrooms one one resident one one person per room yes okay and what would be the maximum capacity of the facil of the of the uh facility once it's completed and if they utilize the expansion area um that would be up to the the client we're going to have uh the operation from CIU address right any other questions from the board all right uh just I want to thank everyone for coming here today it's my understanding that a lot of people have a lot of questions um this we and still in the question and answer period here um and I'm going to ask when you if you want to come up to ask questions if the witness what you have to do is you have to come up and we have to get your name on the record and we have to put you in front of a microphone just so you know okay all right questions from the public come up Sir all right sir you please identify your name and address please uh SCH McCormick uh my mother lives at 12:45 Schmid Avenue um I actually had two questions where do you live sir excuse me where do you live uh same I'm currently recovering uh from an injury so I'm residing with my mother at the time great what questions do you have for the witness uh the first question is um there's a family of deer that actually lived back there so I was just uh there's also one fox den back there I was curious what would happen to that um secondly I assume most of are here because uh due to the political climate um there's uncertain uncertainty whether that will be turned into a shelter and uh what assurances can you give us that that won't happen and if and when that uh Assurance is broken what steps uh are going to be taken for the property values that plummet as a result of that well this Mr Potter do you have an answer to that please I'm just the architect got okay those are my only real two questions but uh okay maybe it's not an appropriate thing to ask him but that's basically my main concern with this project Mr Hill we have other Witnesses who can address that yeah thanks Sean yeah our next witness will address that but again this is specifically and our next witness will testify to it is a a community residence for people with developmental disabilities that's what we're seeking the approval for and that's what it will be for much like the other residents in Union Township that have the same and throughout Union County okay sir when you said a shelter what kind of shelter are you talking about sir I mean nowadays it could be turned into really anything um you know given the immigrants influx of immigrants into the country I'm not sure if that's something that uh you know there's been hotels and stuff that have been taken over and uh the owners of those properties have um gained a lot of value obviously from that so it's a a Val question I believe okay Mr Hill will you have a witness who can test who can test our next will address that but again it is it's a for developmental dis developmental disabilities correct are you asking sir if this is uh real you're concerned about if this transitions into other usage down the road uh correct yes okay fair enough all right any other questions for this witness come on up please is this too loud good evening hi please identify yourself for the record please U my name is Johan ISO I live um 1251 Schmid Avenue um I have similar concern as my neighbors do you have a question for the witness I don't have any questions but actually do um I know your occupancy um it's unclear at this point uh the house is um it's four rooms but it was not clear to us whether or not it's going to be house for four occupants or your intention is to um to house to to house additional this uh wall from from Community Access will answer that sounds and we also have similar concerns about the value of the property we I we just recently purchased a home um this is a residential something that was a driven um U attractive about the community this is a a residential Community um which houses one family um single family homes um we we are concerned about the density increase in in the area and how would that affect our parking situation currently Mr Hill will you you're I'm sorry for the feed on this this is way too loud we will you have witnesses answer those questions we'll address all of great thank you right M Mr chairman if it would help Mr Hil can you can you just provide an overview of who are all the witnesses so that we'll know like good the right questions ask the right person correct Matthew P Potter is our architect next we will have bernardet Griswald uh who is the executive director of Community Access unlimited and then we'll move on to Joe Bachi from eka engineering and then who is our uh site engineer and then Nicholas graviano our professional planner thank you Mr chairman I have a question for you yes members of the public who have questions could could ask any of the witnesses to return to respond to their questions after they all test we do redirect we can do redirect right Mr H okay all right thank you okay you you'll have your chance you'll have your chance all right so I see come on up come on up you're welcome good evening sir you please identify yourself for the record please Edward harders 1249 SM Avenue Union New Jersey last name sir hardest h a r d a s last name first name is Edward okay uh apparently when we where do you live 1249 SMI Avenue okay what questions do you have for the witness uh it's not a question actually because it's not going to answer it apparently when we purchased this property 12 years ago we saw the peacefulness of this area the woods you open your window you hear bird singing okay now they are coming to invade our privacy one question I would like to ask ask him you have a family do you have a family do you have kids sir do you have kids sir how would you feel if somebody all right so this is a question and answer if you want to if you going to ask him a question you got to give the opportunity to answer that's where we purchased the property we knew that area was free and it was it was Rood now you disturbing the animals right you got to ask a question we open the window want to hear birds singing not we don't know who is moving in there we don't know what they're going to do down the road if you have a family invading their privacy how would you feel you have your daughter at the backyard they swimming in the swimming pool and you have a two-story building procedurally ridiculous I understand sir we and I I want to get you in now so you can go to work and we don't know who is moving there we don't know who the workers are going to be there this is a good project this is the question and answer sometimes you say one thing and it's another thing all right sir this is the question and answer portion and I you and I want to give you the opportunity to ask the qu to ask the question it doesn't sound like you're asking very many questions yeah but he cannot answer my question for every question they ask him say he cannot he has soone well we have other Witnesses here sir then hopefully and then hopefully we can get that done for you but and if I as far as everyone if if anyone wants to respond on their personal views that's fine we could but we really have to we only have a few hours here and we really have to get through I came to express myself that was why we purchased the property 12 years ago we didn't know they were coming to invade our privacy well when you say invade sir when you say invade what are you talking about he's talking this is the backyard okay this the way they're going to build build this building is our backyard we have a fan it's a two-story building and you you're going to see everything that is going around the neighborhood okay you invading our privacy well can you State for the for the for after the Witnesses are uh no I I have to go to work sir okay sir I understand that then thank you very much thank you all right yes ma'am good evening man you please state your name and address for the record please I'm Linda rnck h r e v n a c k thank you what question do you have for the witness so I have many questions okay here but I'm going to try to talk about just the um architecture so the property is very sloping it's on a hill I know you're only talking about one building buing there's two buildings I looked at the plans I don't think you could really talk about one and not talk about the other so because they're in the same lot so the property slopes and I want to know how you would grade the property that wouldn't affect the Neighbors on Schmid also the um driveways would there be one driveway for both properties is many people here are concerned about the traffic it's it's horrible is there any opportunity for there to be an exit out the back of the property so that they could go on to o voxhall Road there's a continual turn signal from voxhall to Oakland which allows no one to get out onto Earl Street properly we've asked the police to move back the sign um no parking here at to corner so that we could see you have a question for so I guess my question has to do with how are you going to handle the traffic but also the scaling of the property and so that the sloping if you take that out the property underneath at the bottom of the hill is going to be impacted by that and then I guess my question is the removal of all of those trees how is that going to take place where it's not going to disturb the residents who work there work at home live there and obviously we're concerned about the wildlife too but I think that's a question on the grading of the property and the the driveways so as I mentioned the buildings will be cited so they work with the existing topography but our civil and planning Engineers will go into detail with that don't understand all that what that means so can you explain what does that mean cited the way the building is placed on the property we work with the existing topography but as Steve mentioned we have a civil and planning test experts that also testified to that as well because from the the plans and it's hard for me to understand plans but I was looking at them and obviously you have those sitting back which is sloped down so the property would have to go down and I can't understand how you would sit properties down that far and there's Wetlands behind there I know there's water I grew up there so I know as I mentioned the the planning and civil engineer that are going to testify after me will have better answers for that okay so maybe I'm asking the wrong person here so what exactly are you responsible for just the building just the building okay so you said that you you're going to have four residents in each building and then there's opportunity for growth within those buildings no I mean this again this is for the client I'm just talking about architecture finishes the rooms not the actual occupants so you said there's four bedrooms but then there's also there's also additional un there's additional space that isn't being um that's G to unfinished space unfin that's the word unfinished space so that's potential for how many more residents again I'd have to discuss with the client it's not my decision so I guess this this um fella can't answer any of our any of the questions that I have and what would the pro so you don't know how the driveways would be civil engineer okay I guess you have to Define what who does what yeah okay all right well I I assure you you Mr Mr hail I trust we'll have witnesses who will be able to answer questions Mr Potter indicated our site engineer will cover the grading and how it's situated on a lot and and our hello Ma you still oh all right and our next witness will address the operational from C Community Access unlimited all right questions yes up all the way in the back sir come on up please identify yourself you address for the record please hello my name is Richard Balman uh I live at 1219 Schmidt Avenue I'm the caretaker for my mother the home owner at that address okay um well first the letters we received said there'd be room for 10 in each building so it's a significant uh change from uh you know four in each to a total of eight to 20 do you have a question for the witness yes uh apparently I'd like to figure out how visually this could even function on these two large Lots I know they are very large uh abandoned lot I've first I do wish to say uh while I get to the question for you specifically that I want to object to the project I'd like to object to the sale of the property for so little money and only finding out about it four years after the fact all right please and just keep we're recording this and it gets very difficult to record when people are talking on top of each other so there are a series of objections but for the architect even if it looks like that I presume this slot is the one on Earl Street facing the road it's going to there is this would be smid Avenue this would be Earl and there's a large clump of trees that run all the way to my backyard that building will it be facing this way towards Earl Street it'll be facing towards Earl Street but situated to work with the topography that's one of them now the second building is it going to be the same the facing to the road or is it sideways should we be answering for the second application now Mr Hill I don't mind if he he answers that question okay yes it all be situated towards H Street all right now my my main question I guess and this goes on because while it's not directly directed at the house I'm seeing parking issues how much of these s the witness sir we can't if you don't hook into it I apologize uh these are long uh uh stretches of land behind our houses uh even if you put two houses there and it I along the street whatever infrastructure and like I said I'm concerned about again water runoff there's and what happens seriously if there's a you know the arch uh the engineer says oh yeah we'll grade that right and it all come out and then there's a subsidence and something goes on during construction and you have to redesign this whole project what's your question sir these are the kind of things that well I'm concerned about about this project and I guess later on I would uh be well I'm sure we're all concerned what history is there uh to property values whenever one of these facilities are put in not merely that they're as a as this now but what's gone on because yes people say the uh property values in the town are going up but up 20% but our town our street over goes up 5% we've lost a significant amount you have a question for the uh any other you can come back later if you want of course we we'll have other Witnesses the the main one was about um how uh of the space that's uh been acquired uh how much uh of the percentage of the land is actually used up by the plans that you've drawn up yeah the the civil engineer has a site plan that will'll be shown sh can we uh I think most of the people here would like to look at that please have that kind of visual a okay so engineer time yes all right yes sir with the hand up there please good evening sir your name and address please my name is Emmanuel I'm sorry your last name Emmanuel first name is spell e m m a n u e l your address please spell e SS i e n and your address please sir 1767 73 L street L street thank you you question for the witness please fortunately I'm very disappointed because the gentleman is don't answer any of the question I have two question I'm sure it's not going to answer because it's not right to answer questions it one is this the construction if it goes on it will start from 9:00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. have you considered the dust the noise as it relates to some Elders some elderly ones that live there that have already have health condition have you factor that into your consideration secondly I'll give do you want to give me a chance to answer sir I mean this is very early proposal stage these are all things that are considered during construction okay secondly by bringing that structure which is purely a commercial structure into a residential area have you consider the influx of people and the caliber of people that will be coming to your neighborhood because I've been there for four years that neighborhood is relatively peaceful your package sit there for days nothing happens to it have you factored that into because it's not enough for you to bring a ra my case there because I know from the look of things he's not going to answer any question well sir In fairness to the witness we have a bunch of witnesses here his expertise is in engineering okay that's why he was so he's not the first he's not the only witness we're having tonight you do I hope you understand that sir okay if I may say something else if it's just the structural engineer who do we address our questions to well Mr H do we have a witness do we have witness who will address that issue and and I want to I want to make everyone clear too if there are answers that can't if there are questions that can't be answered we can table this so to give the applicant the opportunity to answer your questions I hope you understand that this isn't uh you know this isn't a All or Nothing type of a thing if if enough people have enough questions and for better for worse the applicant doesn't have the answers we could just table this so that give them an opportunity to get those answers but the answer in the answer to your question we have a site engineer that's going to discuss the layout of the property Mr Potter is answering questions on the structure itself the what's being built there the structure the layout the grading drainage uh that's all going to be answered by Joe Bachi from eka engineering who is our site engineer I do understand that sir you got to talk in sir mic I do understand your explanation and if that be the case what is the point of this hearing what's the point of the hearing sir yeah because nobody's answering our question well sir I don't think you're you do understand right he's he's just one witness you will have as will everyone here plenty of opportunity to question the other Witnesses let me conclude by saying this right for myself and most of the resident in that area we are saying a capital no to this project I'm sorry we are saying a capital no to this project let it be a record that we are not accepting this project to go forward thank you well thank you very much Mr well if I can and I want I think there's some misunderstanding the form of order here uh and I want to make I just want to reemphasize here I if I think there may be a misunderstanding that this is an All or Nothing thing tonight this is we only have three hours and we will be covering questions bought by the applicant which we do all the time so just cheer me out so uh when when it when the engineer answers a question that doesn't mean that they're not they're trying to be evasive it just means that the other witness will be you know answering that question if at the end of the questioning after Mr hail calls all of his Witnesses you were very much in in in in in uh in your right to ask other questions but if there are questions that they don't have uh the the board can easily table this matter so to give them the opportunity to get answer those questions and also to give you a second chance to answer those questions I hope you understand that this isn't an All or Nothing thing are we are we all clear about that okay Mr you're next oh I'm sorry I saw a hand before come on up please all right and again we all talking into a mic what happens is if we have everyone talking over each other we can't hear so if you you just keep it to a mild uh you know discussion to yourselves that would be great okay sir good evening chairman hi your name and address please no uh 1248 Schmidt Avenue I'm looking at the the design and I'm just wondering the the sides that come down and the the little kind of bump out window just wondering what is the purpose of of that uh and in the future should you look to build out on top of that what's the approval process with the city uh to build on top like because it seems like you elevate that second floor so nothing's being built on top of that I I can't talk about the approval process but the two windows that we're seeing here they're going to be part of the proposed construction so there's nothing being built higher for the room there yeah yeah and then if you can go back to the actual picture I was just wondering the top section that actually goes to the highest level the second floor it's not symmetrical with the middle so you move up to the mic it's not symmetrical with the middle section what was the structural purpose of moving it to the right so just to be clear you're talking about this portion here are you talking about s the second floor shifted I think it it might just be the the view of the rendering it's they're exactly it's symmetrical it will be symmetrical if you can go back to the picture please so there's two windows to the right of the Triangular what what's the design efficiency of that versus having a symmetrical look so when you mean symmetrical are you talking about this eve being centered on the facade yeah just wondering so I mean the entrance is the foyer here and then we have the stairs going up to the second floor and then that's the office space so just to give that if the occupant in there whoever's in that room yeah it just double hung windows open it for ventilation so on so forth so as this is a fixed fixed window they can't operate that okay so that's that's the design decision behind that and I guess my question would be what what's the procedure with with the township if they wanted to build on top of that open space which was just left open on you wouldn't know that our our Township engineer would be able to he can answer that question okay great thank you thank you all right any other questions from the uh from the public okay Mr Hill your next witness yes I'd now like to call upon Bern Griswald from uh the executive director of Community Access Unlimited good evening M gisell please um get sworn in please sure sorry um will you please State and spell your name for the record Bern dewald b r n a d TT g r i s w o l d and do you swear the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you okay and Mr G well obviously you're hearing questions and I know having uh been through this for quite a while for first tell us a little bit about yourself and give the board and the public uh overview what community a access unlimited is and uh then we can move on uh specifically to this property but first a little background of Community Access and what it does for people with developmental disabilities sure um I'm berned DEC gald I'm the executive director of Community Access still down a little bit and speak right into the mic okay sorry a little nervous um so I'm bernedette grisal the executive director of Community Access I've been with Community Access for about 21 years um I started actually as a direct care professional who worked in um a community residence and um were fell in love with the career in helping people with disabilities that need a little bit extra help to live independently in the community um it's so important for people to live like we do and not be labeled as people that shouldn't be living in the community and different than we do um the house is important to the organization the organization has 56 home homes in Union County um we've always partnered with our community we've always partnered with the neighborhoods um our goal is not to stand out in the community our goal is to blend into the community um and that is why we have constructed the home in a way and I know there's a couple different questions about level of service how many people are going to live there there's going to be four people that are living there there is no intent to expand that um the reason why we did go up is because we do care about property value and resale value so if somebody did want to purchase the property if we ever sold the property they could put a nice master bedroom upstairs so these are all questions that we have the same concerns that um the neighbors that's what we took into account okay and tell us a little bit about the goals and objectives of Community Access and and how this home would function as I began it's the whole purpose of uh this property I know that Community Access purchase it from the township uh but to provide again housing for people with developmental disabilities I know was concern is it going to be some type of a shelter again you have several homes right in Union Township so tell us a little bit how it functions the the functions is that um normally for the dayto days um the residents go to a day program or go to work or do community outings and uh normally staff show up around 3:00 um in this home there should not be more than three staff a shift um I know people the the vehicles will be minimal um compared to the expectation of what people would think that the vehicles would be um the what we do is we want people to live independently these are their homes this is not a facility we don't consider it a facility we consider it the individual's homes okay and touch on I know there's uh and and our planner will touch on a little bit more but you have homes you mentioned over 50 homes in Union County and know you have several in Union Township uh so the again this is there was concern raised about is this um will the the use of it change into some something other than Community ACC we are celebrating 45 years of um helping people with disabilities and that usage will not change okay and again to the board and to the public this is for a specific nonprofit organization and tell about tell us a little bit about the licensing that's required we are licensed through the state of New Jersey through um a licensing called 1044a through the developmental disability department de Department of Developmental Disabilities we get licensed once a year they come out they do a full inspection all our employees have to go through a lot of training they have to do criminal background checks they have to pass a lot a lot of things through the state of New Jersey in order to be even be hired so essentially this will function as a a residence a any others that that uh in your other locations the same as any other location we have right now we have three in um Union um Township Alone um and then we have the other 50 53 homes throughout this um Union County and we are only located in Union County for residential okay and obviously uh the the design of the home you wanted to build a beautiful new home and I know you've worked with your professionals on designing that so uh to clarify it will be built all current uh standards as far as accessibility and correct function and the like yep okay I have no further preliminary questions of M grisal questions from the board m'am how many vehicles will be in that parking lot at one time um they will be uh one vehicle that's maintained by Community Access there and then three for the staff that go and that vehicle is used to transport yep members two and from other questions from the board Mike so you testified that this is a residence U and you have 56 around Union County have there ever been any adverse incidents in the neighborhood uh where there were adverse interactions between your residents and their neighbors I've been with the organization for 21 years I if there has been any we've always worked with the neighborhood and to make sure but to to answer your question to answer my question to answer your question in my 21 years I have not had a incident with a neighbor thank you any hello hello this is the third this is the third time please if you talk over her we can't get that on on the recording so I hope you understand we really do it's necessary that we record this thing properly and when everyone's talking over each other you just can't we it won't happen so please you'll have your chance to ask a question um and please be I'm asking you I know it's hard but I'm asking you to please be patient Michael Yes uh and in terms of the staff that you've hired you testified relative to their the background check and so on do they have a professional expertise and uh education background to be able to deal with uh individuals with disabilities and and one other question all of the residents are adults correct correct so regarding the the education background and the professional expertise of the staff beyond the the background check what kind of background do they have to have in order to be able to support these residents they have to have a high high school diploma and they have to go through all the uh trainings required by the state of New Jersey okay do you have any social workers that are on staff that are we have um social workers we have behavioral registered behavioral texts we have uh bcbas which I can't remember the acronym right now we have 14 nurses we have uh quality assurance checks so that we do have a lot of quality within our organization and then just to be clear I heard a question from uh or concern raised by a member of the public before about this being a commercial entity can you clarify that I mean once again it's a residence so residence so there's nothing commercial about it no they each individually have their own leases it's a residence thank you any of the questions from the board yes Mr her um just just a couple questions to expand upon um some of the questions that Mr Cohan um provided um in terms of the number of disturbances maybe I could expand on that and maybe ask for specific um sorry my my my mic feed is too low can can we get that up can you can you hear me now what M can you hear me now yeah but I will tell you that the last time we opened a home and Union I had a similar um situation in front of the zoning board um and they we all work together and we made it work and we no one has anything negative to say about our or house and um my next question is um to kind of give a little bit more of a profile in terms of the the actual residents I know we we we we say the term developmental disabilities but there might be a little bit more specific specificity in terms of the the the the folks that live in there you know are are these folks typically um those that are on let's say the autism spectrum or um what is the typical profile of a typical resident that that would live in this would would it be to the extent that they would receive significant medical care or caretaker or things of that nature can you can you expand upon that I mean we take a person gener approach so it's hard for me to kind of put it in a box because these are people um but it can it can go from medical to behavioral so it could be autistic it could be you know it could run I can't answer that specifically do you want me to answer that yeah if you want to what kind of medical so we have people that might need um 24-hour oxygen we might need people that have feeding tubes um so it's those are the kind of medical needs that we deal with okay um I might have other questions but it's not on top of my head at the moment but I'll you back okay any questions from the board we'll get to the audience in a second so the and just so you know procedurally the we we as a form of order we have we ask questions from the board and then we go into the uh public so we're still doing the question from the board yet I hope you understand that that's how we do things I'm sorry any other questions can you expand on the behavioral aspect the behavioral aspect he said to expand on the behavioral aspect so the behavioral aspect so you have you can have somebody that's highly autistic um you can have somebody that is um aggressive but we have a team of people that we have been able to never we we have not had any incidents that we couldn't be able to handle I don't it's hard for me to answer these questions because I I don't even believe in the word behavioral because I think we all have behaviors um so some of these questions are a little difficult for me to answer because these are individuals that I've worked with for 20 years and I don't look at them as an in in a negative manner so I'm it's hard for me to kind of put a a bow on it for you if I can ask you a question real quickly M Griswald one of the individuals asked a question about about transitioning from housing those who are develop mentally disabled to other residents I wonder what your thoughts are on that for the long term for this place so the when people move into our residents they live there forever as long as they want to it's a Continuum of Care I just had somebody pass away in one of my houses with hospice care so it's the indivi that's really providing a living situation where people don't have to go into an institution they don't have to go into um a nursing home home so I don't want to pass away in a nursing home I don't want anybody else to either understood all right and the so for I'm talking longterm is and I'm just stressing one of the questions that was asked when they talk about transitioning to a different form of housing is is that in the plans for you at all or no if it transitions in into any form of housing it would it would be most likely the C selling the house to a family or something of that nature okay questions from the board expanding on the uh behavioral uh could any of these residents have criminal record no you want to send it this way J thank you all right any other questions from the board okay um if I yeah we we we're we have two we have one that's too loud which is my mic we have other mics that are not so loud um before we go into other questioning um and I'm looking at the clock we are not going as quickly as I had hoped frankly is the lawyer for Yuri simji in yes could you come please come up here sir good evening sir you just I I want to be up front with you and I want to give you a fair Shake uh I don't know we're going to finish by 10 o'clock uh by getting to your client and I don't want to be in a situation when you're sitting here all night long and then we don't get to your client so I just wanted to share that with you I appreciate that where would we be on the calendar for next month uh we don't know yet well we don't want to be last no no no no no that that will not happen I who else is already on the calendar for I we don't have that we don't have the calendar made yet no calendar yet you don't have anybody else no one else is on the calendar yet I can we'll have you on the top of the calendar next time okay great we appreciate that courtesy well yeah and now for Watchung developers the attorney for watchong developers here that's me that's you okay Steve U I don't know if we're going to get to watching tonight but yeah they they know they're here so in there for a bit all right all right and let's get back to uh Miss Griswald any other questions from the board for Miss Griswald and I just be before we go I again I just want to reemphasize like I did at the beginning that Community residents so the use is is permitted we we're here because of some the the setback of the property the fence and the grading so we do appreciate those questions and want to answer those but uh I just want to clarify that so thank you Mr Hill uh any questions from the from the public and again this is a question and answer period yes ma'am come on I know you were up here before so come on up hello again miss Johan yeah and again this is a old question and answer for you mentioned uh that each individual will have lease is that correct correct okay we talk about four individuals most likely known familiar right they're not related that makes S four different family correct okay so in my opinion that would increase I'm assuming that four individual that's four families each one has a lease right that means that um our parking situation will also um you're talking about four residential for residents four residents that do not dry okay um I don't know if I want to get to that cuz that you know that would be your financial Zone I don't know how these operations run but in my understanding when you have a uh property with four leases that make it a commercial property the state of New Jersey requires them to each have their own lease for advocacy reasons um they and it's still considered a community residence and may I ask who's responsible for the expenses of this house excuse me are are these individual responsible to pay or or any prated share or any here for the expense of these houses yes okay so that makes them responsible to pay for the rent this is the reason they have a lease in my opinion that makes it a commercial do you have a citation to Authority for that ma'am excuse me do you have a citation to author for I just I'm just going by what I'm I I own I own a one family home in my my understanding of what is the family home it makes it one or two um family makes it the residential or the more than that it makes it commercial I'm just you know just to make just this is just a requirement from the state of New Jersey on this thank you okay thank you very much uh we come on up Sir again hello again yes you do just put up it's again this is all on the record here so you want to make sure hi my name is Richard Bowman I reside at 1219 Schmidt Avenue where I'm the caretaker for my mom the property owner thank you very much hello hello uh well uh the first thing I'd like to ask is uh because I would have objected if I'd known about the sale of the property how did you become informed about the property being up for sale the two lots well if I if I may and I don't know what that answer is but if it involves any Communications with your legal counsel I think your legal council will probably I was just going to say that was before my time I don't know anything said hold on hold on please I just want to make sure she not what was your question uh the question was how she became aware of the sale of the properties I lived there lived in the town my entire life I had no clue that these properties were being put up for sale so I'd like to know how they found out about it how how who found out the in um well they you're the purchaser so the township transferred the property to Community Access okay why because we one of the first well that's all right we don't have I'm quite confident she doesn't have that answer and I don't have that answer too and I'm chairman of the committee so that's why I'm saying if we don't have answers for you and everyone tonight everyone here gets a fair Shake including the applicant and if we don't have the answers tonight we'll just table this to the next time and we'll find out then no problem I just want to put on the record that we have issues with the initial transfer of ownership okay fair enough uh the next question I have is uh we are right next to uh the exit from Garden State Parkway uh there have you thought about the safety issues and possible liability issues if one of your people simply wanders out in the middle of night and goes right into the road uh is that Beyond the scope of your it's something to be concerned about Steve do we have any could answer that I I think you can I mean I can answer it yeah uh so any liability issues from C on C's part no well possibly for the town or the county is it just or just the fact that they wander across somebody's property and aren't sto you know somebody else doesn't stop them or see them there and then an accident happen so I'm concerned these individuals are people yes and as a human being I could wander into a street and get hit by a car um so I think that that's why they're cons called accidents it's it's I'm not trying to avoid your question but they're people right just like me and you so things happen um and is there any a liability on the for the township no okay uh the uh next uh let's see the next issue uh some people brought up the issue of commercial I think I can explain what they mean by that and that is I guess we'd like to know how much your uh Association is getting paid either by federal state county or local per person that you house because the money has to come from somewhere to purchase the land to build the facility to run all these things so that money is coming from somewhere and I don't believe the patients themselves are for the most part in the position to do uh finance that so the state of New Jersey gives each person a a budget and they run it depends on the uh they consider it a tearing system so it depends on some where the person is placed on in the tier well uh I guess then more specifically do you have a financial interest in having more people in there for example while it's designed for four people at the moment each one let's say in the future uh what prevents it from being expanded can I so I just to kind of put put that to us there's a home and community base um through Medicaid Medicaid wants the least of restricted uh for people with individuals with disabilities to live into the community they only cap it at four people you need to get special permission to do anything more and see is not looking to do that is uh since you said you have 53 houses uh in the county how many houses have those exemptions none okay uh Finance uh if I think of something else I'll bring it up I can I do clarify something though because I None have the exemption since the rule has been put in place when was that the rule has been put in place in 2012 okay thank you thank you sir okay the woman in the green again you want to come up I see you're back all right can you please identify yourself just again for the record please Linda R okay can you just def can you look into can you talk into the mic can you define developmentally disabled individuals is that Down syndrome autism or can you define it I mean it's a hard definition because it's such a broad array but you know you could have Down syndrome you can have autism you can have um f physical disabilities um so it it developmental disabilities you just have to have um an ie IEP before you're 18 years old so you could be streamlined in the in what's I individual uh education plan so you can have an IEP and be streamlined in a public school and still be part of the developmental disability programs so there is a wide range of uh disabilities and how do you determine which people get these homes there's an interview process so we do a an extensive intake process so we review their background we review um if they are appropriate for home do they do they match with the other people in the home is things of that nature the two homes that we're looking at I know you're only dealing with one but it's unfair not to talk about both are they going to be women or men that has not been determined yet so I know some of some of my friends have um children with developmentally dis disabilities and although that's their family they do do become violent my one friend he's over 6 feet tall and his son has really knocked him out so obviously we're concerned people here have children I walk my little dog they all know and we're concerned about that I understand your concern um all I can tell you is in my 21 years nothing has happened to a community member that that I'm aware of of okay so now you said that you try to fit into the community all of our homes are very small little homes I don't know how putting two large homes would fit into our community they I would love to live in that house there's no way that those two buildings will fit into our community so the reason why um the reason why we push them back is because we want to to make sure that we weren't standing out in the community but they it wasn't big enough for people to have their own space you mean you you push them back in that's why we're here today because we're pushing them back in putting them back further in the property Yes again you you have to push them back because of the slope of the property so it's it's not like you're trying to do us any favor you it's the way it's the way the land goes I orang orang engineer will touch on that but no we could put them up and and not have to come to this board okay so let me ask you let me ask you another question what is your overall budget for these two homes for the two homes together two yeah the two one or the other or both she can they're a nonprofit she can attempt to answer it but I but there should be a budget you have to report to your Board of Trustees so there you have to have a budget I mean it's got to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to clear those trees out that's one thing let alone the construction so what's your budget for these things the budget for these two homes was $2.4 million and that's the clearing of the land so can no clearing and building of both homes so both homes total clearing the land everything is $2.4 million now I know I look on Z I the last time I looked there's 117 houses for sale in Union for $500,000 if you're trying to fit into the community and all of those facility all those homes are available you do that in other other um neighborhoods why go to the extent of building these two big buildings ripping out the whole um landscape that affects um air pollution noise pollution wildlife when you could just go and buy maybe four homes do Renovations of those fit into the community and not disturb our small little neighborhood with something that doesn't fit and I'm I am quite sure I am quite sure that that has got to be more than $2.4 million for two houses I just want to emphasize when she's talking and you're clapping we can't hear her so I please I I get your approval of her what she has to say and I respect that but if you're clapping we can't record what she's saying okay so I I I can't I mean I've volunteered at our house I volunteered at ARC I appreciate what you're doing but to disrupt our community to to mess up the environment to do you have a question more traffic a question and all of those things and to to do this when there's so many other opportunities I can't understand why your board would would not look at other opportunities that would be would make more sense for you and for' you have a question y so so what has your board how has your board may come to this conclusion so the state of New well two two things I two fold the state of New Jersey requires certain de requirements the four the the ramps and it you can't retrofit very easily um the second thing is I will be 100% honest with you and I think my team can actually say this I've been looking for a home that I could retrofit for over six months I've bided on multiple projects and I'm always continuing to not be able to retrofit those homes but you have 53 so you've done it successfully that was over time over time over time since 1979 right but you have overtime done that so I am quite sure and I'm sure there's probably PE people here that would be willing to work to help you find homes that could be U retrofitted as you say but the I just can't a question yeah okay the question the other question is do you have to pay taxes on this property I do not okay so that's uh I think that's an important thing the other thing is um will the Union Township be providing any funding to do any of the renovation to tear out all of this no they will not okay um the other thing is too is like was Community Access the one who approached Union or did union approach Community Access for this property so I have been with the organization for 21 years I've only been with the executive director for six years I don't know any of that relationship so perhaps you could find that out for us because if it's something that the town is encouraging Community Access to do then it's like what are we even doing here because because we're none of us knew that this was being sold um let's see what else I have here CU I'll be back for the next person okay so you don't know men or women no I that's not determined it really does depend on the referrals and who is the right fit for the home and one home would could one be one or correct it could be one in one okay and then you said that there would be one staff member in each home no no no no there there would be at least three three staff members because I heard one so there's three staff members 247 uh no there's three staff members on the 3 to 11 shift and the 11: to 9:00 a.m shift and no one on during the day and how many during the day none just the supervisor one and then during the day these clients go out to work or Day program Day program and so they'll be transporting them by bus van or other uh Vehicles up and down Earl Street because that's the only way in and the only way out so that's going to increase the volume of traffic on our little side street so the question is so the question is what will you do to alleviate the traffic issue the parking issues how many parking spaces will there be for these and then the other question is I know you will provide recreational activities on the on site with family members coming so how many parking spots in my in my profession we call it compound questioning in my my I'm a lawyer and my you're asking multiple questions at the same time if you just I think it's probably easier In fairness there to ask one question at the time sir yeah okay so you will provide recreational and um other so we took this into account in the design and I think when you see the parking and the engineer will show you the parking so we did take all of this into consideration so that we would not be parking on the street or anything like that okay and then like how often would there be recreational activities what's the noise level of those type of programs are there going to be many um said family please make it one question at a time okay so how often are there recreational activities I mean it's person centered right so you might have your family over every weekend and I might never have my family over so so I can't answer how often but normally typically they're not very often and when those type of programs go on I I mean I don't know what you mean by programs this recreational things I'm sure there's holiday parties or we have a main office for our holiday parties um so we we don't do holiday parties and things of that nature in the homes so if we do so if family members want to do a holiday party or the people that live there want to do a holiday party that's what we do but we don't have you know the whole organization come over for a holiday party we have other facilities for that so I mean I think there the grou home if the group home wants to have a part uh a holiday party for if the four people that want to have their families over it's going to be the similar to if we want to have our families over they're going to have their mom and sister or brother so maybe 10 people maybe how on holidays okay well I my my real thought is this does not fit into our community thank you and any other question the with the baseball cap come on up hello again please identify yourself we address for the record please Sean McCormack 1245 Schmid Avenue um I was just curious if there's going to be like anything written in stone um just to say that this is not going to be used for anything else something that we that you guys can guarantee by law that it will never be transformed into anything else Mr hail yeah I can assist with that yes this we're before this board for approval for the varant for the dimensional variant is again Community residences are permitted uh but uh if this board I approves it it is for Community Access for Community residence for people with developmental disabilities that's what this is for um I understand that uh know I tell my girlfriend every year I'm going to run the New York City marathon and hasn't happened yet um so I was just curious is there is there anything well I think what you need to know sir is that when we do when we do when we do approve applications it's the application is confined to the four corners of the resolution and so when we we do a resolution it's literally for the business that's being put in front of us that's just the way it is and if if a business goes outside the four corners of the resolution then they have to come back to us and if we find out about it before they tell us then they've got some explaining to do I will I will say that to you uh but no the the resol resolutions that we use are design are strictly the four corners of the document and the the businesses that we do approve are for the businesses that are expressed to US during these hearings I just want I want I just if that gives you any insurances I hope it does okay thank you okay yes sir in the back with the glasses hello sir introduce put put your name on the record again please my name is uel spell e m a n u e l the last name is spell e s s i e n I have like three questions for you got to look you got to speak M um you made mention that the people that will be occupying this property are to some extent will be having some disability challenges and so my question to you is if any of them is mentally challenged is there a possibility for them to be able to work with their environment and whatever is around them is it possible for them to walk are their chances will they be able to handle themselves so within the environment and whatever is around the environment my question borders down on safety okay so if a a person is not able to if if it's not trying to every person has a unsupervised time assessment if the if the assessment of time is not if the team believes the person should not be by themselves they will always have a staff person with them if they are not a risk they will not have a staff person with them so yes they will be able to walk but it it will have been assessed because by understanding of someone that has some mental challenges is that there's a possibility of them not being able to walk with what is around them and the issue of wandering away is going to be common question number two well you want to give an answer want answer that so you're saying that it's common for a person with a disability to run away why to wander around what to W around wonderand around so with 300 people taking with the people that the 300 people that we serve in Union County there's probably three people that wander and and we have put security measures in place that they don't do that anymore why I'm asking this question is this because I've worked in a halfway house mhm where people had mental challenges mhm there were several occasions where there was an human heror mhm where they fell through the cracks and wanded the way into the community so this is not a halfway house this will be their home it's similar it's not in terms of the mental status well it could you want want to answer that I mean I do not believe that it's similar in my expertise but um you know I'm not going to challenge your opinion but I do not it's not an opinion it's a statement of fact by my research all right somebody just have to let her answer somebody who is mentally challenged is not able to work with whatever is in his or environment not even the people so there is a greater possibility that they might fall into the cracks due to human error okay and then the safety issue you want to give her a chance to answer so they are they are do if there is somebody with a mental diagnosis in this home they are duly diagnosis and meaning that their developmental diagnosis is the primary diagnosis um disabled adults do not always have mental challenges well I don't want to overb the question because I'm not satisfied with your question question number two is this you you men mention that the employees are going to be working this property is going to be did you say three or four three three okay these people are mentally challenged would they need like other medical expert like a therapist and other um medical experts that would need to be attending to them and if you factor that into the equation one question at a time please we it's one question just one we're we're community- based supports therapists do not come in our homes they we are Community Based supports people do not give services within the home social workers don't come in social workers do not come in they we do have behaviorists and some licensed professionals from Community Access that will go there but that that is not anybody other than our employees so from what you've just said there's going to be more than four employees at any given time but you asked me how many are going to be there most of the time there is going to be a tendency for somebody else to come in like our quality assurance the state of New Jersey but the main people that are going to be there are three okay I'm going to to the next question question the next question is is if you have three or four employees that work on that facility I know there are chances that sometimes they are relative will be dropping them off do you have a way of vetting or checking the background of whoever that we having any contact or access to this property correct everybody has to go through a background check you don't understand my question let me put my question again we are assuming that they're going to be at least a minimum of three employees is on that property at every gri time going by your explanation yes and I'm saying this what if a relative is dropping off a relative that works in the property do you have a way of vetting those people as well so that way so you want me to vet somebody in the community so if you is your question if I go to my family's house that I should bet my it's a question of concern we're talking about safety whatever we do in our homes it's up to us this is a J and we are now trying to convert it to a commercial that's why all those questions are coming up so I'm asking you because if the employee on that property is being Mr Mr H are you asking her if they bet somebody that's dropping an employee off and by the way you keep saying it's commercial no it's residential that's why it's permitted I I understand the question now but we require we require our staff to have cars answer my question if she can if she can rest my case we require our staff to have cars we require our staff to have cars so they don't get dropped off but we know in America not everyone is a is able to afford a car that's why I ask that question whoever is going to be dropping an employee do you have a way is there any mechanism that you put in place are you going to say whoever is going to be walking there nobody drops you off okay we require our staff to have cars and they have to produce o all of their documentation be before hired and and Mr Augustine I want to be fair to everyone here uh we're we're at the halfway mark of our meeting uh could you wrap it up please whatever your questions are first so we can get to everyone else who wants to ask questions please thank you the other question against for the record is this you've said in your 20s or so years of practice that you've not experienced any conflict between your property and the society that is hosting them that has not been able to be amly resolved okay I'll raise my thank you very sorry any other questions yes ma'am in the red good evening how are you you please state your name and address oh no hardly hardly my wife is short and I would rather get in the ring with Andre the Giant than mess with her so I I I know I A Feeling hi my name is Roberta Jones I live 1240 sh Avenue okay okay my question is is I work in the medical field and you said something about not having social workers on your premises in each facilities as far as I was concerned the state of New Jersey what you're trying to build there need to be a social worker on on the premises you also mentioned that the people question okay go ahead social workers on the premises why aren't there social workers on the premises you said these people had credentials that was going to take care of these people why aren't they social work as be answer that question because I have more for you so the social we don't I we can't I can't accurately answer that question if they we don't I we haven't identified the people but we do have social workers on our staff but they do not in in all 56 homes that I that we I oversee there is not one social worker that is stationed at a home okay well as far as state of New Jersey I was concerned with yes there's supposed to be social work on the premises especially if you're dealing with children with um autism mentally challenged these people need social workers because at some times they're very uncontrollable you cannot handle them and your social workers are your Liaisons between the families and you have a question ma'am okay ask a question the state of New Jersey does not require me to have social workers and I am licensed every year through the state of New Jersey for all 5 six of my group my community residents all right these people that you say they have credential credentials what type of credentials do they have to take care of these people in their home the four people that you said is going to be in this home they are it is outlined by the state of New Jersey there's um we do a two- week mandated training without all the necessary trainings and um continuous training throughout their career okay do they have any type of medical background these people that you said only have a certain amount of training do they have medical background to control these children it's not required for them to have medical background that's kind of scary for me I have we've been doing go ahead go ahead we've been doing this for 45 years and um successfully and I have served over 300 people in the community just in Union County so we we put in the infrastructures that are needed for the individuals and they are person centered okay my question to you again the Mally challenge like I said before the Mally challenged what are your goals for them because just like one of the other um neighbors brought out that they do sometimes have a purpose of wandering or leaving the premises what is your protection for us as the residents we put a plan for the individual in place to put safeguards in place why can't we know about the plan that you have in place because I do not know who the individuals are and they are person centered see that's why we're here we need questions asked and answered a lot of these questions that we're asking you guys are not being answered and we have to speak to someone else we live there as residents and we think weer answers question question as residents our question is we want answers I'm providing you the answers as much as I can okay so hopefully at the next meeting you'll have answers for us I will not I be able to identify the people in these homes I'm not even approved to there's privacy regulations on that right yes okay thank you okay thank you all right any I'll get to you in a seconds but I want to make sure I gave everybody else a chance uh who else has not spoken yes ma'am in the back the with the black top on please Hi how are you good how are you good your name name and address please Tasha McCutchen MCC u t c h e o n 1235 Schmid Avenue good evening Miss Miss cutchen please what's your question for the witness please I literally just have two questions um we keep hearing four people and four bedrooms the paperwork we had says 10 occupants is there anything that can make you change and there's 10 occupants instead of four no my other and it really is a concern what made you I don't know if the paperwork maybe it was confused with the two houses four and four so that would maybe is some the paperwork we have only has one address and it says one lot we just learned about two buildings here tonight my second question is you say about fit in the community what made you go to this location that house doesn't fit in the community so to say to fit in the community did you look at the community that house doesn't fit in our community what made you pick that location the location was acquired by the organizations prior to my my knowing so I'm not necessarily sure why they picked this location um the reason why I'm before the board today is to put the setback to make the necessary requirements of the state of New Jersey okay thank you thank you Mr M right in the back with the gray on up good evening good evening ma'am good evening sir how are you you please identify yourself address for the record please Brenda Jones Foster and you sir Robert fost all right and who will be will you both be asking questions or yeah um my question is um none of the properties in our neighborhood has fences you were talking about fences and even though you're set back there's still visibility with the fences and you Pride on fitting in but you want to put up fences when there's no you ever been on Earl Street a question ma'am question number one a question for yes you've been on Earl Street so then you would know that there are no fences around any of the homes so how does this fit in even if you set back with fence around [Music] it why is the the fence really is to kind of picture the house right so it's not necessarily I wasn't looking at the fences on the rest of the street to be perfectly honest with you when we came up with this design well if you look you would have seen that there are none first of all second of all like I said you got to ask the questions got to ask questions I'm I don't necessarily agree that you you offence because other houses don't have offence that you shouldn't put up offence so how do you fit in you actually stand out you have to give her a little chance to answer you can you can ask answer the way that the houses are set back I we as a team felt that it would be an picturing the house with the fence it would be a nice going up for resale value I have a sister-in-law that's a um social worker and she works at a group home in kennworth and they've had their share of incidents police calls such as so I have a great concern because I've been in Union 26 years I raised five kids in my house and currently I'm raising three grandkids so I have a great concern and to me you have not addressed the concern with people whether you have people with mental disabilities or people just in general but do do you have a question ma'am oh yeah so you have not really assured the neighborhood that it this would be safe what I can what I can state is that we identify individuals to go into a home and we build an infrastructure so the community is safe okay my final question is you said you've been on Earl Street then you had to note that the parking is very limited very correct like I said we've been there 26 years we don't get in our driveway we won't get a park you have an event people got to park around the street down the corner such as you're bringing more traffic and more parking we took the parking into consideration I think you'll see that later on on the plans uh actually m u Mr do we have a traffic ACT test toy now we have our our site engineer again this is treated as a as a residence you think that a traffic expert would help again with the community with the community residences that she she will address and our planner will address the low impact all right um yeah please answer the question and uh other people who want to ask questions we we have no shortage of uh so if you could wrap it up please ma'am I think I I I um I can't remember how many parking spots and stuff but we did take that into consideration on the plan and there should not be any um disruption to parking on the street where on the me on the street on Earl so noted good evening Mr Foster how are you uh first of all this application uh as you can see all of us in the community we don't approve of it really really never know never know that I'm speaking for the community I live in and uh I understand you have a job to do I have a job to do to protect my community and right now that's what I'm up here to do and uh that doesn't fit in our neighborhood that that two family house it don't work and it don't work it don't just work don't work for me we're here for questions questions oh okay and uh well just to say the architect was up here too for him to draw something up like that and put it in our neighborhood it don't work and uh question please sir Mr Foster understand what you're here to do as many times as you come here we're going to come here and this is what we're going to do all right you have any other questions for thank you Mr poster thank all right and I'm I'm trying can we do two more and then go because we only have an hour and 15 minutes left uh sir you in the in the in the a dark colored suit please or jacket whatever it is yeah come on up we have to wrap this up uh for this witness at least would you please identify yourself for the record please sir hello good evening uh my name is Giovani Manor M 63 Earl Street question for the witness please yeah what um property this size wouldn't that bring more garbage and more garbage means instead of deers we would be having rats right now everywhere I mean I've worked in New York I've seen it time and time again that's number one well there's still only four people living there four people there's four people that will be living there and three staff they the staff do not live there there's only four people living there right but they they still consume a lot more than any regular residential am I correct am I right I don't agree but you know we can agree to disagree on that okay and and and I want to say too that both that they I think they've been very professional in presenting their argument although you all disagree with them I I I I do respect the fact that they've been very uh professional in answering everyone's questions here right okay uh uh second question I've seen it done in New York before whereas one one time one of the occupants there came out with no clothes on we have children like small little kids what and I live right across the street like I'm I look at the deers I left New York because of that M noise garbage argument garbage fights so I I hear everybody's concern and I'm I see their you know Birds yeah and I'm sensitive to that so I am um you know I I do stand by what I say and I will take everybody's comments into consideration when we are placing people into this home right okay go ahead why are the fences not shown in the picture I'm not the witness sir you got to ask the witness fences why are they not shown in the picture I I don't know I I can't answer that question the fences our our site engineer is going to address that he hasn't testified yeah thank you thank you very much sir all right uh last last witness Woman in Red and for the C person I'm trying to get those who haven't asked questions I help you understand good evening ma'am can you please identify yourself with the record and address yeah my name is Brenda Leiden 1245 schmith Avenue good evening Miss good even what are your questions for the witness pleas my question is our taxes are pretty high on our property as it is we where I am concerned and I'm not speaking for everybody I cannot speak but I'm concerned I'm sure everybody else is concerned about what where like our our tax is going to raise with these two huge homes that's going to be set on our property actually so could you I'm not a tax accessor to be perfectly honest with you I don't know I do not believe there's tax impation since we purchas I I doubt she's not a tax official with the city and or the town and I I doubt she would have any type of information like that this is part of the questioning it's it's a legitimate question that we may have to approach after we table this for the next round because uh the witnesses here are concentrating on the project itself not necessarily the tax implication so we may have to U table this to get some of the not not only your question but the other questions as well well this is more um it's not a question but it's a concern of myself and my husband so your property is going to these two properties is going to be two so they're going to be in um how many feet from arol Street could I ask I don't know that off the time site engineer is going to lay out the I'm sorry I wasn't asking you the question I was asking yeah' ma'am all right ma'am he the lawyer engineer that will show the plan and show where it's going to be he's he is here to represent the interest of the applicant I hope you understand that but I am trying to ask the lady a question and this gentleman is interrupting well yeah but he has he has that's his job that's what lawyers do so that's what my concern is because like literally two not even not even a block down is our backyard so this property so I enjoy my backyard with my husband my my adult children we barbecue and all of the above this structure is going to it's overlooking our backyard there's no privacy I won't have any privacy I won't be able to go out and enjoy my home which we purchased less than three years ago when we purchased it I did ask that question to the real estate this is beautiful we're so happy that you know we can see the deer we can see all of that and now they she said oh nothing's going to be put there nothing's going to be put there so now that our property value is definitely going to go down it's a huge concern do you have a source of Authority for that maam do you have other than your own observations we're not going to have the standard of living that we when we bought this home our standard of living is going to be totally we're not being able to go out and enjoy our backyard enjoy you know looking at this structure which is huge and it's going to be set back it's definitely going to be set back close to where our backyard is do you have a question for the witness ma'am yeah I don't I that's why I asked how many feet from theet um I think the site engineer will answer that question for you specifically I don't know specifically off the top of my head okay thank you so much okay thank you have a nice day now well you have to come into if you want to talk and we'll get and then we'll get you to you okay sir and then that then we have to go to the next witness because we're it's getting late first name is Edward uh last name is hardus 49 Avenue okay uh just a quick one I mean you guys don't have the photo of the woods that we are talking about I think when you have the next meeting I believe your board should see what we are talking about they just showing the structure now we want you to see the land that they want to build a structure on I don't see it here then you will picture what we are saying right now you're just looking at the structure that they are building if you have or anyone here has actually any illustrations to present I think we have both well I mean for next for down a suggestion for down the road okay by all means I invite you to present it okay I will because that's what um that's what I think we should have that on the so we can see what we're talking about so we know what we're saying right the reason why we're giving this uh comments well yeah cuz we're trying to you got to remember as as the planning as members of the planning board our job is to give everybody a fair Shake has anyone of you seen this uh lap one second one second sir our job is to give every applicant a fair shake and we want to give the applicant a fair Shake one of you Bo seen sir sir please I'm the chairman here quick question has any one of you guys seen this land that they're talking about uh sir have you guys gone there to see it I'm not the witness sir you got to ask her has anyone of the board members from Union and by the way Union did not write us to let us know that they've sold this land all right that's fine and that is completely wrong sir we pay our taxes sir I invite you yeah to bring whatever evidence you have defitely I'm looking forward to see it actually definitely um because we want to give you a fair Shake but we also want to give the applicant a fair shake so I hope you understand it's a balancing test for us here I appreciate it and we if you have anything for round two I and and I in the interest of cander to everyone here I do believe there will be around to okay because I just don't I don't it's almost 9 o'cl I don't see us finishing this up tonight um I I respectfully suggest to you and everyone else here to send us whatever you have to support your argument all right thank you uh and that would be that okay and that he's gone uh um Diane what's the 1776 right oh there you are we have to make it quick sir because we have to it's a question Bowman from 1219 smidth Avenue what is the average uh residency turnover you're mentioning of the four people who are expect Ed per building how often do they stay I know each one is individualized but what is the you know is it one year is it four years five years is there constant churn what is the what are we expecting the turnover I mean our and our hope is that they live there forever right um so I like I described before we just had somebody that just passed away in hospice um is there turnover yes um does it happen frequently I wouldn't say it happens frequently we maybe have in the 3 V uh un um units that we have or people that we serve we may turn over 10 in all 56 locations every two years all right thank you thank you all right Mr hail your next witness please yes thanks P I'd like to call upon Joseph Bachi who is our site engineer all right swear the witness in please can you please State and spell your name for the record Joseph Bachi B AI eka Associates 328 Park AV Scotch Plains New Jersey 07076 okay sorry and do you swear that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes ma'am thank you all right and Mr Bachi I know you've testified before this board but if you give the board to benefit your work educational experience area of expertise and whether you've been accepted as a professional engineer before their boards or courts to the state of New Jersey sure uh I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey uh earned my BS in civil engineering in 2012 from muckers University um been licensed since 2016 and been practicing since uh professionally since 2016 my license is in good standing uh I've appeared before this board before and numerous other boards throughout Union County many times okay I would offer Mr bot as a professional engineer so order okay so Mr Bachi if you could first take the board through in the public uh the existing conditions at the site and then what's proposed by way of improvements sure I'm going to pull up the plans that were submitted okay so I'm just going to go give an overview of the plans that were submitted to the board um are we able to get them up or on this well when she when e comes back she can it's up over there oh over there okay for some reason when she comes back she'll help I'll zoom in to show various features sure who said that but okay okay um this is our cover sheet dated December 13 2023 quick overview of what's on the cover sheet um these are just typical requirements 200 foot owners list many of you are here tonight um General notes I'll zoom in um we have a key map our schedule of General requirements I'm going to focus real quick on the ex excerpt of the zoning map here uh you'll see the site that we're talking about right now is lot one uh it's bound to the North by Earl Street which across the street you have single family residential dwellings uh to the east also single family residential dwellings to the South Southeast uh you have property owned by Garden State uh Parkway with an access or exit I believe it's exit 141 right here um to the West you have a vacant lot um that's part of the next application um and then west of those are additional single family homes uh just a set the scene I'm now going to go to the last sheet of the set which is a boundary and topographic survey as shown here you have Earl Street to the north uh we have an irregularly shaped lot the total size about 35,000 square feet uh Frontage is about 118 feet on Earl Street here uh and then the depth varies from 365 ft uh to the West here and 225 feet um to the East uh the site is currently it's moderately to steeply sloped generally from the northwest corner here to the southeast uh the difference in grade you got you got about a 20 foot drop um about elevation 96 in the Northwest down to 76 in the Southeast uh we will maintain that uh General topography um site is currently vegetated with um some mature trees uh and the only Improvement is a partially constructed sidewalk uh may have been part of a roadway maybe many years ago that was going to be constructed but that that's the extent of it this um sidewalk shown here uh now to the meat of the presentation I'm going to go to sheet two this is the our proposed plan for the property uh hopefully I answer a lot of the questions that I've heard um but I'm sure I'll get the four questions when I'm done uh so the crutch of the project is the single family four bedroom uh two-story dwelling shown it's basically centered in the site it's angled slightly to be in line with the topography uh that limits the amount of disturbance of steep slopes limits the amount of walls that um would need to be built um in terms of walls there's a couple of walls that are proposed on either uh near either side yard uh all less than four feet you can see this wall here on the east side kind of the length of this side this um diagonal hatching here sorry zoom in so just a so it's a small less than four foot high wall here um additional walls located to the West right near um right adjacent to the property and that's as was pointed out it's a pretty steep site so we need some walls to control that um we are keeping some you know steep slope in this area um I want to point out that these are stable slopes you limit it's typically limited to 3:1 we're not exceeding 3:1 in any areas in the proposed condition um which is considered stable um and that's with that's pretty conservative um I know there's a lot of questions about parking in the driveway so let me uh focus on that you have access from Earl Street here um you can see the outline of the curb I'll just hover over it so it's kind of clear for everyone tucks into the building there um so access from Earl comes all the way to the back where you have four parking spaces um outside and then as architect testified uh there's a two-car garage also so there's total of six parking spaces um technically a four bedroom dwelling only requires 2 and a half we have six parking spaces here um as Bernette testified four bedrooms four um residents they don't drive uh in terms of Staff there's at most or you know typically three on site at most uh so you have plenty of parking for them and the and the one vehicle so you know there's ample parking here uh for the staff that will be driving there um we have included additionally a drop off area uh on the sidewalk here uh sorry sorry on the um adjacent to proposed sidewalk on the driveway uh we do have sidewalk connecting Earl Street to the residents uh this is ADA Compliant Max 5% slope um I think storm water was mentioned as a concern I'll go into that a little bit uh so we basically calculate the required storm water um based there D standards that we follow to calculate how much storm water needs to be detained from a vacant site to a site that increases the impervious coverage as we are with the the dwelling and and the driveway uh so you can see a pretty extensive uh detention Basin in the back here so basically what happens is rainwater is collected on the dwelling it's piped I'll zoom in so you can see uh some of the roof leaders we're proposing um piped into the Basin from the roof and from the driveway we have uh some inlets Lo at in the driveway gets piped to this detention Basin it goes through what's called an outlet control structure so you have basically a wall with a 1-in orifice and I'll show details of this as well um just to kind of put you guys at ease with storm water that one inch orifice slowly meters the water out and it'll go to a a scour hole that'll prevent any erosion those are sized per soil erosion in sediment control standards um so in terms of you know any erosion from excessive rainwater runoff that's not a concern with this design uh and increase in runoff is not a concern uh as the water will be detained temporarily and slowly metered out through that orifice uh in terms of fencing we are proposing a six foot high fence in the rear of the property it's six foot high u in the rear uh shown see these X's here that's the proposed fence just to kind of follow it around the property um there are limited wetlands in the rear we are not disturbing the wetlands we have the fence going around them um yes we're avoiding avoiding the wetlands uh coming down the side and then when we get to the front yard we shift to a 4ot high fence uh these plans show that 4 foot high fence so it starts here once you get to the front the these plans depict the 4 foot high fence going all the way to the property line um we've we're open to and I I believe we actually prefer now to push that back to the front yard setback um the front yard setback in this case is an average of the existing properties on site so essentially that fence will be in line with the the properties that are down the street see what else we have um so I I do want to re reiterate to the board and and to the public that we're here for variances and and our planner will go into this a little bit more but it's front yard setback um the setback is proposed to be 100 feet from the property line um steep slope disturbance and having a fence in the front yard um in terms of the size of the house we fit within the side and rear yard setbacks the height of the house is in accordance with the zoning you're allowed two stories and you're allowed it's allowed to be 32t high in accordance with Union zoning um I think that really uh covers the the site plan itself um and have have you had it EXC one one one second he's still testifying yeah have you had an opportunity to review the colar letter dated January 30 24 and and have you uh any questions regarding uh compliance with drainage and utilities I think you touched on those yeah so um no problem complying okay and then with respect to uh there was a request for uh let me just touch on it yeah uh obtain soil erosion and permits and a storm water operations and manual any problem complying with those no problem okay great great uh I have no further questions of Mr Bachi at this time thank you Mr Hill questions from the board questions from the public hold on I'm sorry sorry I didn't react fast enough U Mr Bachi the you you just testified that the structure is 32 feet high in accordance with zoning does that mean that it is similar to the other homes in the neighborhood I don't have the heights of the other homes so I couldn't accurately answer [Music] that any other questions from the board okay any question questions from the public yes ma'am come on up again hello again could you please just identify yourself with the record again please Johan my name um was there any environmental analysis done before putting this property uh not by not by my office no that's outside of our scope have you seen this site before I've seen it yes okay we have a lot of Green Field how much of the green fil will be uncover because this it looks like the whole site will cover all the trees that we have will be demolished uh so in terms of they will be a large portion will be for for grading purposes um in the engineers letter they they did request a landscaping plan uh they pointed out that we're removing quite a number of trees I think you know at least 20 um so we've been asked to provide a light a landscaping plan where we're going to provide um additional trees shrubs and vegetation around the property a lot are getting removed just so you know um I we just purchased our home like three months ago and one thing that you know really attracted me was the backyard of my house we don't have anybody just by trees so I I'm super concerned I know um the board just asked about the high and how this is consistent to the houses we have currently um as far as I can see and I don't have the set measure it looks like your house is going to be higher than the houses in Schmid so it's it's a lot of concern of privacy um right now and I'm trying to just keep it as a question but you know I I don't know how to address this without just racing my concern there is a huge concern about privacy and how your height affects our our house our curent food homes instrument venue understood um one thing I'll point out is going back to the grading and I think this technically isn't the site that you're you're on Schmidt you said correct so if you so we're looking at the one that's uh west or east of you but you're talking about this property here um I don't honestly have the topography there but I know in general it's it's higher up here and it goes lower so us setting the house back helps in a way because it's going to be while it might be a larger structure than you have it's going to be set lower the the grade is lower um so that could potentially balance out uh your privacy concerns uh and also going back to the Landscaping plan um we can certainly put a a buffer of trees or vegetation on the sidey yard there that might help you with privacy as well one thing that um I noticed about the community is that we we lack of Green Field and um like park for our children and that was kind of like our um to go Place actually or just as as we all know we need trees for oxygen so environmentally speaking when I asked about the question about environmental analysis how does that affect our community now especially in an area that is so commuted we are so close to the parkway so our trees in that area actually is like protections for our neighbor for our elders like you know a lot of my neighbors are there for a lot of years live there for a lot of years we have a lot of Elder in the area so how that affect um has was there any consideration as to if we remove all these trees how does that affect our community now not to say the animals that live in the area um and that's just a you know that's a question I want to bring up um was there any concerns about how does that affect our community moving forward yeah I mean we we always try to limit the amount of trees we're taken out this is a particularly difficult site because of that slope um you know if it wasn't slope so much we we wouldn't be take you know we have to these darker lines here are propose grades so we have to tweak that grading a little bit in this area so you have to remove trees to do that um I'm sure the applicant is more than happy to provide you know plant trees we're happy to work with the township engineer um you know he already asked us to provide a landscaping plan to you know trees and and shrubs so we're happy to to add them back to some extent sounds good thank you for that um and perhaps this is a qu this was a question to the um um the architect but maybe you can answer what is the reason that um you building you guys are building the fence is this for safety issue or this is just as you know the um director said this is just to make the house looks good or what is the reason behind building the fence instead of trees for set for set I think it's um you know kind of Aesthetics and as I said we want to put we are set back about 100 ft from the property line so we want to move the 4ft high fence in line with um the other properties on Earl Street so it kind of adds that that continuity there so you have something that's in in line yeah well our houses don't have fences as you know so um I just mean having having V some visual structure there rather than just having the house 100 ft way back you have house and then fence and it's and it's in line so it's it's a visual I I I know I think perhaps you going to understand that you know you're I mean your engineering plan sounds great I mean I I I I'm a property manager I'm a property manager so I work with engineers and I totally understand you know the project and how you are building everything that complies with um regulations and things like that we hear you we're here more as Property Owners we here more concerned as you know family m members and how you know the project um affects our community but thank you for answering okay thanks next question from the public is that lady in green again come on I'm sorry I couldn't see you back there please recite your name again neck again thank you so if I can make a suggestion because I'm sure we're going to come back again can you please put the two properties because it's only two is that correct it's two lots it's not more than that correct C if we do this again can you put the two properties on um for for consideration at the same time because on your plan you're showing one but I can't understand where the second one is well I think we are I'm sorry I think we are we're only talking about one you only show showed plans well exact right now we are that's why I'm saying I'm not sure we're going to finish this tonight there's another part of this as well there's two properties that are involved here and uh he's talking about one we're not going to get to number two today because the letter that we received only dealt with one okay the one that I have the I have a agenda here and there's two separate pieces of property here so maybe we're well you have to read the letter okay fair enough okay all right but if if I don't I don't really understand where the second property is uh it's I can't highlight so is this it's the it's uh this lot here so close sorry go ahead go yeah you you explain it so there's the one you showed us is on the bottom of the hill yeah further away from Schmid AV and the one probably a lot of people here are concerned with is not the one you're talking about the one that borders on Schmidt correct the so Schmidt here you know the rear yards that have been mentioned before would about this property that we're not talking about right now so there's there would only be two buildings one on each lot with no um thought going forward to put any additional buildings on this no absolutely not okay and just so you guys know uh this if you basically copy this and paste it on here it it's going to look just about the exact same so is it going to be parallel like this way or like the H the house will be angled very very similarly and you know located say the same in this area the driveway will be um so is is the driveway for both houses or for one two separate driveways two separate driveways two separate entrances correct is there any reason why it can't be one driveway that it's two different properties two different houses two different Lots two separate properties two separate okay okay but it affects us all the same way so is there any thought because we're all concerned about the traffic Earl Street has gotten to be extremely busy and because there's going to probably be Vans and probably be buses that come to take people to their jobs or wherever they go is there any opportunity for there to be a driveway to exit out the back of the property no that's not feasible you have the Parkway exit ramp right right back there and you and you have wetlands in the rear that we would have to Ser to do that it's not feasible there's wetlands in Parkway back there so if there's Wetlands then we're we're avoiding the wetlands you're avoiding the but wouldn't you think that wetlands are important for the environment so we're concerned obviously for the deer are you relocating our deer what are you doing with our deer in our Fox so what's going to happen with them that's outside of my kind of Realm of expertise one question time ma'am please one question at a time so yeah deer relocation and Wildlife is outside of my expertise but there's no there's no opportunity to get out the other way I don't think there I mean we could look at it but I I don't think there's a feasible and the the way the driveway is because that that's a hill that there's a hill and I know I know I've been driving there for a million years if a car comes out there and they don't can't be seen coming up that's could be a danger uh could you clarify that which where are you talking so where's the so it's downhill this way right correct if I'm reading that right it's downhill yeah so yeah it's sloping down in this direction so you're saying a car coming out of this driveway so where is the driveway in this picture right here at the bottom of the site so it's at the bottom of the site right next to the people's property at the bottom of the hill uh yeah yeah correct okay so I don't think that I that's a new fell in the neighborhood too I don't see him here the I mean the the driveway comes up and meets the existing grade and and it's not the driveway is not so steep in this area the it's no that's flat there I know it's flat but people coming down that may not see a car come out do you guys know what I mean yeah I mean there's I think it's it's pretty clear there I mean it the same would apply to every every house on that street then no what I'm going to suggest for the traffic to the bottom of the hill if ma'am can I just for a second I want M Mr hail we've had a lot of questions about traffic and may I respectfully suggest that for round two you consider getting a traffic expert on it I I can I can yeah if I could I'll touch on traffic if you want Steve I'm not a traffic s triangle yeah we can provide a sight triangle um what would be helpful is not just just traffic on Earl Street but also Oakland Avenue because Oakland Avenue is the way we feed in there and we can't right now we can't even see to get out onto Oakland Avenue because the cars park right up to the corner so that's an that's an issue and it will be an issue for your clients who are trying to exit Oakland Avenue understood and that's something we can look at and provide um site triangles are kind of what does that mean it's we'll have a traffic engineer or or we'll consult a traffic engineer for that about are you an expert in traffic I wouldn't say I'm an expert but it's you covered I really think that you're if you want to be fair to your to the applicant I think we need to get a traffic expert up here because I think we're going past what your expertise is frankly fair enough um I will point out that these are two lawfully existing lots that are zoned for single family homes so you know forget the use for a second if this was a single family home you know that there'd be no problem with tra there could be a family of five here with just as many vehicles or more right but you also have staff so that increases the number three three staff and residents that don't drive so you could have a family of five where all five residents are driving but there's also going to be people coming to to to uh transport individuals bues there's visitors there's but there's regular buses that take them to their you know jobs or or what wherever they're going for the day their day understood but other residents on the street have visitors come for parties or hang out to visit but not like a regular okay if if I may uh I understand that everyone's biting at the bit put the two cents again we're recording everything here and when you talk over uh our witness and you talk over you can't hear it you just can't so please keep it down okay thank you can you also just tell me where is the driveway to the other property the one that so that that Schmid on the top that's not seen yep so where is the where is the driveway to that property it's on the let me confirm if I don't have it open it it really would be helpful if we looked at these two together understood not entering this as an exhibit for this I just this is for my own edification also on the bottom of the property so in this area it's that's excuse me that's really like at the break of the Hill it's right at the top of the hill we know it okay so it's that's going to be right at the top of the hill again that's that's the next application we'll address that at that time I I know but you have to look at them both together man with all the respect it's two separate applications and you'll have your opportunity to we have to go through the same questions again because it's two separate applications we' discussed that ma'am this there are two separate applications pending I know you in the letter it said one but I have two sitting in front of me so we're going to have and it's almost 9:30 we're never going to get that tonight so we're going to have to address that next time the same questions yeah are going to be for the same good question and as far as a form of order is concerned uh you may have to ask the same question for separate properties because that's just the way things are done um you have to protect we we can't in we can't commingle questions for one property into another we just can't do that because that makes it confusing and the state won't allow it anyway so you may have to ask ask the same questions on the same on separate property that that may H happen but that's only as a matter of form of order because we that's just the way the round of questioning goes pretty much a waste of I don't disagree with that at all but that's real waste of time right okay I don't disagree with that but that's just the way it goes that's the way we do things Mr chairman if I may I know the watch on casee I do not believe that we're going to I don't think we're close to that right because it's already if you want to dismiss your Witnesses if that's fine think there's Council here well let's announ I think we need to let let's put this on the record uh just no one second please because we have another applicant that we're not going to get to today sir you please put your name on the record please I will than thank I'm Stuart liberman from the firm liberman bler and sinkovic and I was been retained by the uh Marmont estate civic association that's watchong developers yes okay and so I'm just asking the board if you think if we could dismiss no I represent the civic association oh you oh you're the adversary to Oh So you you're you and Mr ha adversaries well we'll see friendly adversaries okay I think you got it I got it okay I'm glad you mentioned that because before we end tonight I was going to ask if there's any attorneys in in here who who are representing the civic association and the is here if they wanted to make a presentation to the court uh we're not going to finish tonight sir and so if you want to let uh if you want to cut your clients loose or your Witnesses remember that's fine question can I be C I have if I know you're not doing it all done well if your clients don't mind I certainly don't mind I can tell you that well let me let me ask then uh Mr chairman uh at this point obviously we're not going to reach that matter so we would respectfully request that the matter be carried yeah to the next board meeting which I believe is April 25th at 7:00 no further notice I'll be in touch with you anyway yeah that's fine and we will stipulate I don't think we're close to the time period but we'd stipulate to any appropriate extension of the time period okay that' be fine all right look forward to all right you got it Mr Le it was a pleasure sir all right all right I have to wrap this up okay Mr Hil we is it's a safe bet we're going to go into round two sorry well we haven't gotten to our planner yet I'm sorry do you want to take a minute so they can all right yeah let go let's take a 5 minute break and we'll regroup okay I'll give you a card s would like name great thank you excuse me for a second yeah me everything I know yeah good to meet you I'm sorry I'm sorry you have to wait but whatever I'm sitting next to Phil they spe everything already I for [Music] e e [Music] oh e that's right e e back on the record I don't even know which one's mine now know mine all right the planning board meeting is again call to order uh after conferring in uh with the other my other planning board members and with Council uh it has been determined that uh instead of we only have like 20 minutes left we're going to carry this to the May meeting yeah I think that'll give us a chance to address some of the the comments from the board uh the landscaping and the like and do some uh community outreach also yeah I think community outreach is critical for this application so we have no problem with that uh so we would respectfully request to be carried to the May May 23rd May 23rd meeting of the board 700 p.m. this room no further notice okay and that uh we would stipulate any appropriate extension of the 120-day time period if required well I want to just I just want to put on the record by the way that I thought your Witnesses were very professional and very polished and very well spoken and I also want to put on the record that I appreciate the audience that came here also asking questions including those who are still here uh we do take your concern seriously we are reviewing them um and I would invite and I know that Mr liberman is no longer here however between now and the main meeting what I invite you to do is send us whatever pictures videos evidence that you have uh we hear your concerns but I hope you'll understand too is we have to give everybody a fair Shake okay we have to give the applicant a fair Shake we also have to give everyone a fair Shake including uh I'll be back M uh woman over here yes we're all volunteers absolutely I do it all the time yeah absolutely all right all right ma'am what I cons are you a part of Mr liberman's clientele no that's that's the other group okay there's more out there yeah uh I go out I've gone out to sites before and I have no problem doing it again I normally do it with Council which includes Council for the planning board and the council Council of the applicant uh and then we just go and we see what you're talking about so I can't give you a date today because I have Easter around the corner and my wife will shoot me if I miss my obligations there so um but yes we can I'd be happy to do that of well I'll tell you what why don't you email Miss rutage your contact information and we'd be happy to reach out that's okay is that are we all okay that okay all in favor yeah I mean so I know you're not I'm just want to make sure that I want to when we work out today I just want to make sure that everybody got a fair shake to speak their mind and I'd like to think that we did and if there's any unless you know anybody has any other things to say about that and again yes we uh respect request that the matter be carried to the May 23rd meeting okay uh 7 p.m. in this room stipulate any appropriate extension yes ma'am in green no there's no there's no no there's no notice after this is the notice that we're doing now yeah ma'am can we we just have to do the motion to close up and then we can talk to yours content a question through you to uh Council uh are we extend continuing application I'm sorry go ahead and then are we continuing application both application 242 and 2403 under the same Circ that's the understanding great Point thank you I was just about to say that yes it's carrying the one that we're proceeding on now and the second application also all could I have a motion that the uh tonight's meeting be adjourned so move second second all in favor I so ordered ma'am you wanted to come up thank you very much and appreciate your time and enjoy Easter and the holiday weekend come on up come on up say okay that's around oh they turn that's a round of questioning for the next I don't have the answer for you ma'am uh but that's a round of qu that could be addressed in the next round of questioning but I I unfortunately I don't have an answer for you on that okay you're very welcome it was a pleasure meeting you all that sounds good thank you you e for they yes