thank you let's roll it good evening everybody and welcome to this regular planning board meeting on June 27 2024 Madame secretary can you please call the r Mr Bernard Mr katf here Mr Lily Mr Hinman Mr kamudi here Mr deol here Mr O Sullivan councilman Roman mayor Toro here Vice chairman presy present chairperson Pearson here board attorney Mr merera here zoning officer Miss Kathleen Le here Township planner son shoban here and board secretary and and um just to introduce everybody this is our board secretary Malik mwall right and she goes by m that that's or M Met m whatever you want um um okay what do we do now we do the Pledge of Allegiance can everybody join me I the United States of America and to the for stands Nation indivisible andice chair go ahead I'm no um could just one little thing before we get rolling if everybody could please pay attention to their mics and when they're speaking turn them on and when they're not turn them off because we're getting a lot of uh cross conversation in the recording right um can you please read the open public meetings act thank you the notice requirements of the open public meeting act have been satisfied with respect to this meeting of the Verona planning board being held in person in the ballroom of the Verona Community Center the time and date of this meeting were included in the annual meeting notice posted in the community center and sent to the official newspapers of the township the Verona Cedar Grove times and the Star Ledger at least 48 Hours preceding the start time of this meeting a public comment period will be held in the order it is listed on the meeting agenda and instructions on how to comment will be provided at the appropriate time all meetings are recorded those wishing to speak during any public comment period should only provide their name and municipality Street and addresses are not required please be advised that should a member of the public choose to State their street address it will not be rejected from this record great and so with that um anyone wishing to speak on any subject um please approach the mic and you you have what is it three men four minutes four minutes so no questions no questions now this is um okay um I'm actually looking for guidance you need to state your name um I've been trying to determine what the tax implication of the affordable housing uh development in the town including gr of flats I've looked at documents online I've talked to the Board of Education in particular I'm in interested in what will the effect of students the number of students coming in and I've been unable to get information I hoping this board can guide me or give me a specific person that I can speak to as to what the tax implications will be for the P sure um so I would get in touch with George lauzi he is our tax assessor um okay um yeah he is our tax assessor okay um and if I fail to get a response from him you can call contact Pam prisco because she works in she runs the office in Verona great um and she's very responsive right you will not not get a response from her um as well those buildings at this point are not rented nor do we know the you know how and who is going to be renting them and so it's possible to tell you exactly with the ramifications of the one two and three bedroom units and how many children and the effect on the schools because it's cart before horse right now it's they're they're not rented there are guesstimates and that's what I'm interested in I would definitely uh well first for the tax ramification please mayor hi um I can actually refer you to the Public Presentation that we did at the council meeting on this that actually will answer most of your questions okay as far as we don't really have it we have kind of basic estimates on I don't know how many people would be there but um if you give me a minute I can figure out what meeting that was at um and the presentation came from the developer um I believe I read that with the uh and the board of education did a statistical study on it which I questioned the lity of it but from that it can be estimated that the U there was a yeah there was should be okay it's going to there's going to be a 100 students there's going to be 200 students and the tax implication is X that's what I'm looking for there there's no way to know just now how many students there will be because the right um the lottery process is just starting and the placements will be happening in September um as far as the uh the tax application piece I um you're best bet on any of that equipment or any of that um information it's reach out to our Township manager so I would assume that when this project went forward they did some guesstimates that um if 200 students are there it'll be XYZ it's $20,000 a student in gona so we should be able to extrapolate that that's what I'm looking for so Mr dico time manager I put his email on that card for you and you can copy me on it um he has a lot of the information right the actual per pupil expenditure is it's not when you add students to a school district each student you add doesn't necessarily increase the cost of the school district by $16,000 whatever the cost per people is um the uh it it adds expenses if you have to add another teacher or something like that right but just adding one more child there's it's doesn't significantly increase the expense but it's really it's a question of space and and making space and Renovations and it's a questions of Staffing those are the two major cost drivers um I also had some problems with the the study that was done there there's some questions that I didn't think were answered and assumptions made that I wouldn't have made um but Mr diarco has been Fielding these questions and if he doesn't have the information he'll be able to get you the information appreciate it thank you welcome thank you sorry we couldn't answer everything um are there any other public comments okay then I will sorry I will close public participation and we will move on to approval of meeting minutes we have two sets of meeting minutes from February 22nd 2024 and meeting minutes from March 28 2024 um does anybody have any comments or Corrections or corrective uh statements or ministerial Corrections on any of these um okay uh then I would entertain a motion to approve can we do both sure to approve both sets of meeting minutes unless somebody needs to abstain from one or the other from which one February okay can you mark Vice chair fresy as abstaining from the February meeting minutes anybody else have any abstentions okay then I will entertain a motion to actually we need to bifurcate them to approve February meeting minutes make the motion to approve Mr katsa makes the motion I'll second I'll second um vote to approve hi I any not to approve and one exstension and another motion I will entertain for the minutes on March 28th motion I'll motion it Mr coody makes the motion second mayor Tambor seconds all vote to approve i i i any not to approve and no extensions okay both sets of meeting minutes pass and um we are now moving on to new business and I will happily hand the meeting over to miss s chavan who is our Township planner thank you madam chair uh GRE do you need to swear me in oh it can't hurt s um do you swear or affirm that the testimony you were about to give is the truth I absolutely do thank you uh good evening everyone so nice to see everyone after two months um um so I'm I have before you uh the 3 320 Bloomfield Avenue and um 11 chur Street area in need of Redevelopment investigation study so um any area in need of Redevelopment the acronym is ainr as you'll see in future it's governed by New Jersey's local Redevelopment and Housing law uh and you'll see the acronym lrhl as I proceed through the testim uh why Redevelopment uh Redevelopment is a tool that is handed to municipalities to stimulate change have Economic Development it's a very proactive process and enables a municipality to develop a vision um the once an area gets uh designated as an area in need of Redevelopment uh it gives a municipality the authority to pre prepare a Redevelopment plan uh which allows for more flexibility uh municipality has better control of development outcomes and uh the lrhl statutes also enables the municipality to offer incentives such as long-term tax exemptions um and it's again at the discretion of the governing body um it also enables the municipality to negotiate development priorities construction phasing improvements dedications um and this is again generic information just to refresh you guys have had uh Redevelopment studies done in the past Madame secretary can you just please mark the record that councilman ran has arrived thank you thank you um so um as per the read weapon statutes or lrhl um the governing body has to first uh authorize the study and uh it has to this study has to specify whether it would be a condemnation or a non- condemnation and the resolution passed by the governing body uh has very clearly noted that any designation would be non- condemnation Redevelopment area what that really means is there's no eminent domain no involuntary takings any interested developers would need to negotiate with property owners that's how uh this works um so again I I know you all have reviewed Redevelopment investigations in the past but I just want to uh refresh everyone's memory with uh the lrhl Redevelopment process so the first step is the township Council authorizes planning board by resolution to conduct the ainr study which is um what um it is uh what what we're meeting up today um the second step is the planning board of the consultant which uh conducts the study to determine if the area meets St the statutory criteria which is the h2m report that you all have and at a duly noticed planning board public hearing the study findings are presented planning board makes recommendations to the governing body or Council to designate or not the study area which is the current step we are in um this uh this designation is very technical in terms of what the stat stes require us to do and um then the next step after that would be the the governing body either accepts or rejects the planning Bo's recommendation um is again at their discretion if they accept then they uh by resolution designate an area in need of read weapon or what we call read weapon areas so read weapen is a three-step process again phase one we are at phase one which is meet um conducting um this a ainr study to see if the area meets the statutory criteria then the next step would be preparation of a Redevelopment plan which basically is not what we are concerned with at this point but the Redevelopment plan is uh by statutes not a master plan that you guys adopted two years ago but it's more like a ordinance all this called plan so it's um it's prepared and adopted like any other ordinance Your Role is advisory in that case um you would determine if it met the uh master plan uh consistency etc etc then once the Redevelopment plan gets prepared and adopted the third step is that um the governing body either selects a Roper or works with the existing property owners and then they would then prepare a site plan which would again come before you the planning board as you review any development application then the governing body also has uh the power to re negotiate the redwap agreement and implement the plan so the study area in question are two properties along Bloomfield and church as you can see um and if you recall I think a few months ago um I had presented the re Rehabilitation investigation one of the Lots 320 Bloomfield is within the rehab area um just to refresh everyone's memory the land users everyone's familiar with it it's in a mix use neighborhood uh this is the two lots have residential commercial uses um there's an um multif Family across the street on Bloomfield uh Henry's is uh to the east um the church is to the north of the property Verona first uh first state is is uh opposite um Church Street there's a commercial uh building uh at the corner of church and Bloomfield and then the vacant parking lot where you have um uh the parking for Verona po State as well as Henry's now Redevelopment criteria I I've simplified it but I can go into it just to provide a framework as to uh the next step when I Pres why it's my professional opinion that that these two properties meet the Redevelopment criteria so this criteria is section five of the lrhl and first criteria is uh building substandard buildings so what that really means is buildings that have deteriorated or fallen into a state of disrepair that people cannot inhabit them the second criteria again is specifically for buildings where it's vacant or abandoned commercial and industrial buildings or conditions in in those that have fallen into state of deterioration and disrepair so boarded up buildings and etc etc third criteria which is criteria C is land owned by public agencies or a vacant public land that uh has remained uh fellow for uh more than 10 years so that's um that's criteria criteria D is dilapidated areas delous land use so this unlike A and B doesn't look at just buildings but it looks as at buildings and the sites surrounding it and the improvements that are dilapidated the obsolete not as per modern um uh engineering standards they overcrowded quality design uh etc etc um and then e is uh basically a growing lack or total lack of proper utilization of areas because of title issues uh vacant uh commercial or office spaces Etc which basically uh conditions that impede land assemblage or discourage the undertaking of improvements so um that's criteria e criteria f is um uh land more than five acres that has had natural hazards like uh buildings um burned down by fire by Cyclone etc etc um the G Enterprise zones that have designated um like for example our cities which are a part of U Zone like New York Patterson Etc ET that's that's uh that's the criteria um and then finally they call it the smart growth criteria which by itself doesn't have any standing but um uh the lrhl has that uh where the designation of the area is consistent with smart growth principles so if you recall we have state plan and they planning areas a and planning area B so it's for those areas so these are these are the um uh eight criteria and I'm going to get into the details so for any Redevelopment study it's always nice to look at the background so we studied the master plan policy we were in the we prepared the master plan not too long ago so I'm just summarizing page 17 has everything in detail but I'm just summarizing um what uh just the overall uh goals were and um basically it talked about promoting growth in appropriate areas uh continue to ensure bloomfi Avenues of vibrant and attractive downtown maintain attractive and thriving business in commercial districts and um so those are the few um few goals and objectives which are relevant to this study um so we analyzed just a again there was a a whole section on the study area the context and Analysis but I would just say that portion of the area as I mentioned is already designated as an area in need of rehab um it's located on the Main bloomfi Avenue coridor the area is well serviced by public transportation um New Jersey bus routes and Redevelopment designation is aligned with Township's planning goals uh public transportation as you know we had delved into detail at the master planning level but there are two bus routes uh New Jersey Transit Route 29 uh which has tops along Bloom pill which is the one in blue and um not like a 10 15 minute walk from that uh near Claremont um is is um uh New Jersey Transit 11 bus stops so it's well connected by public transit uh we looked at the individual property analysis so when I explained to you the criteria from a to H which I apologize is very boring but uh it's just forms of foundation that everything need is so technically required by the statutes that we have to request record to see what would be relevant um if at all anything is relevant so we looked at the tax maps we looked at the assessor records we looked at accident reports fire department uh code violations inspection reports any development applications um so we requested all of that building department permits we went on DP website to uh identify if there are any contamination issues um and obviously we looked at the master plan zoning map and ordinance and most importantly for any Redevelopment study you also conduct a field visit and we spent um a few hours 2 3 hours in April to actually conduct a field visit and that's where we got all these photographs from um as you know these are the two properties and I'm putting it all together because it is a red weapon area um and uh the first property which is 320 Bloomfield it contains a main structure which is the commercial structure it's like the brick structure with that peach thing to the back and um Bloomfield Avenue uh really um the topography from the bar of the property to Bloomfield is a steep slope so what's really their um subgrade becomes a full floor the brick portion on um Bloom field which is basically occupied by I think it's an interior design business um and uh the it's connected to a twostory building so the the peach portion is their office and behind is a is a uh residential unit and then um it's not clear here but I think of in there are other pictures but to the right is an accessory structure which has a business use which is a massage therapy business and access to the site is provided from Bloomfield which you know which is pretty wide 24 ft or 22 ft as you enter But it Narrows to really 9 ft um um and uh there's a rear parking lot with a three-car garage which is I um all the way to the rear um which is shared with 11 Church Street which is the next site and that contains Verona aluminum one um story commercial building and there's also an single family residential home and a small undefined parking area to the front of Verona aluminum um and uh the driveway which leads to the rear parking uh lot which is sheded with 320 is approximately 13 ft um and the width is too narrow to serve as a um two-way driveway now um I um based on the analysis and I will share the photographs and really comments on that is it meets Criterion D and as I mentioned earlier Criterion D focuses on both the buildings as well as other site improvements and addresses how the site functions in terms of the layout and overall design and in general properties that meet this Criterion are be being used in a manner not consistent with modern land use planning standards and practices um so the next slide actually provides an explanation and photographic evidence and although this definition may seem to Broad a combination of one or more sections which are noted with within uh section five of the Redevelopment statutes or lrhl uh indicates the obsolesence of design and layout so I'm going to uh start with um the exterior photographs and and I've included a lot of pictures in in the uh report but I I I have included a few to just highlight um what um I'm trying to um explain uh so the first thing is to the left is view of the driveway and as you can see in the about image so the first and second image the drivway narrows at a point between the residential unit and the one story um accessory structure um the second um image actually to the top the middle image actually looks at Bloomfield from the back of the property and as you can see here it has gravel and aspalt it's um you know badly maintained undefined parking um so the then the third uh this picture to the bottom middle is basically uh the view of the rear yard looking towards the West early side of the property and Bloomfield Avenue to the South and there's a retaining wall which belongs to the adjacent parking lot but the existing fencing and um just the walkway shows signs of disrup um the other picture uh to the extreme left bottom uh extreme right I'm sorry um shows um the you know the pipes are all exposed storm water there's no storm water management everything flows on to um this site um and into the neighboring yard and um you know the uh picture to bottom left actually the picture there um is the Le facade and it's seen from the uh parking lot at the corner of Bloomfield and church and um you know we uh I have one picture to to the top right and the one to the bottom left which basically shows signs of deterioration um so you know actually on site it showed visible rust cracks feeling paint so um we didn't have access to all all all the buildings but we did access uh the residential unit and I have three pictures here but they're far more in the report and uh this shows the view of the hallway um and as I mentioned the SL s slopes downwards towards Bloomfield so portion of this property as you can see from the Right image is uh subgrade and um you know it had just rained um the prior day and there's still water retention um on the site and we could see that um there was some water damage um also um there's lack of insulation the window sill the windows are not as per current standards um when you look at the roof um they it shows like missing tiles it's broken uh pipes are exposed so um even the actual building exterior there were areas where the roof tiles were missing uh which is actually noted in the report uh similarly when we took a look at uh 11 Church Street um again there's undefined parking to the front which uh really extends all the way to uh to the building and the property line it's not in compliance with current um engineering standards the residential unit along Church Street it's an old unit um parking view of the parking lot again shows DET signs of deterioration and the driveway we kind of um approximately measured it's it's a two-way driveway it's 13 ft this is A6 um you know like 7500 square foot lot doesn't comply with uh Etc Zone standards and then as you go down um oops sorry the as you look at the image to the left um it's it's completely covered um and uh you know uh if you look at the what bottom middle image you can see that um the exposed pipes are actually supported by metal planks and then there's this uh vinyl fence and we uh peered through that and the last picture to the bottom right shows basically just a lot of um of garbage and uh things just thrown in there so um there's a onecar garage uh the bottom uh left picture which is for the house but it's really half of that property is 3 uh2 so they don't 320 bloomfi so they don't have adequate um yard uh then we of course uh had access to only one building which was Verona Verona aluminum and the first picture top left um it's the view of the entrance looking towards Church Street from the interior and it's a narrow Island you know it's um not ad compliant not uh compliant in terms of um fireproof and uh it's it was lined by piles of furniture and other scrap um if you look at the middle picture um it was um basically it's um there have been roof leakage issues so the floor is unfinished buckets are place to collect collect water from the leaking roof um and then the other uh the the bottom left and the top right pictures basically show piles of scrap and furniture that was stacked up to the ceiling so it just blocks the room and immediately adjacent to the workshop entrance um so the last uh picture to the right bottom right is you can see expose wiring makeshift repairs to the ceiling um so these were the conditions um and I have more exp um explanation and details in the report um so finally when you know upon review of the existing conditions on the site as depicted in these photographs um uh helped support the determination that the study area is eligible to satisfy the de Criterion due to the OBS obsolescence in design of not just the buildings but site design um as exposed pipes so there's in absolutely no storm water management um completely covered by imperious surface coverage don't meet the current zoning standards for ETC Zone um although mix uses uh permitted this site has residential on the ground floor all the way to the back um so it's basically not meeting even the letter of Law and intent of uh why the ETC Zone was so um as again as I mentioned uh earlier this Criterion focuses on both the buildings as well as site improvements and and addresses how the site functions in terms of layout and um overall design and uh conditions that lead to this conclusion uh basically are as for the statutes obviously undefined or fully defined parking area limited vehicular access available on-site loading areas inadequate on-site parking or um inadequate buffer screening and um so so uh those are typical uh typical standards that one looks at um and uh most importantly greater the number of these conditions and consequently more significant the pro problems created the stronger is the finding that uh the study area meets the Criterion so again to sum it up the site and the existing buildings have ongoing maintenance issues in terms of uh roof leakage inefficient heating and air conditioning systems lack or complete absence of storm water management system the parking layout is obsolete it's um and and overall the site layout um so it's not in accordance with the current um engineering standards which makes it um exhibit conditions of obsolesence and F faulty Arrangement or design um at as for the lrl lrhl and thus satisfies the D Criterion um and I think re weapon of this area is necessary and essential to correct any concerns and uh the overarching goal that the township has of revitalizing blomfield area Corridor now um I had also mentioned about criteria H now uh H um so it's important to rorate reri that the study area is located in the P1 Metropolitan planning area um where the state plan's intention is to provide for much of the state's future Redevelopment revitalization promote growth in compact forms stabilize older suburbs redesign areas of sprawl and protect the character uh of existing stable communities so the study area is located in um in in this in the pa1 area it's um it's the stes preferred vehicle for redevelopment in order to uh again like I said accommodate growth what they call smart smart growth so it also satisfies Criterion a h as it has all these attributes I just mentioned um so the next step so uh okay so to summarize um the boring uh criteria that I went through is um essential because that provides the evidence uh for me as a professional planner to make a testimony that I recommend designating these two properties as non- condemnation area in need of Redevelopment and I'm at the end of my presentation thank you everyone for your time and I'm happy to take questions great thank you so much Sam that was a really complete and comprehensive report so um I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like there was a lot of work that went in and you really nailed it um I want I would like to open it up to board members to ask any questions that they may have sure thank you for putting that together it was comprehensive I've read through it a couple times I've got about four or five questions if you don't mind absolutely um so the standards that you used you called it out they're pretty broad they're kind of the broadest standards correct within that and so coupled with the fact that the um two lots some two about a half an acre in size uh I'm a little concerned about using this as a workaround for spot zoning so did you take any of that into consideration or you know can maybe Mr merera comment on the issues that this could bring up with something like that so I'm glad you asked me this question because I've always had people ask me this question I had a presentation on Monday night for one of my other clients uh to the township Council and they said would this be spot zoning absolutely not Redevelopment as for the statutes enables a municipality to identify areas that very um successfully satisfy the criteria to designate them as an area in need of Redevelopment now any Redevelopment plan should you uh should uh should we choose to prepare in future um is required by the statutes to take into consideration What's um what's are the context so um to your question would this be considered spot zoning no it's not it's been held in court ton not and um we are meeting very specific criteria okay thanks and so my next question actually I think is is Greg this one probably is fit for you so again the standards here in my opinion are kind of broad um so what are their implications if we were to do this for other property owners in the Town Center extended Town Center I'm specifically thinking about and I want to careful because we're still in negotiations with the one I'm thinking about with with the applicant another property owner that is currently looking at redeveloping a property can they then see if this is approved to go and then use that as a mechanism to get another project approved no absolutely not these are I mean sorry Greg sorry no go go no I mean every every application stands on its own okay and every property stands on its own um you know unfortunately when you have a situation where a community like Verona just like many communities up and down Bloomfield Avenue it's it's not that difficult to meet some or of these criteria but um okay but the short answer is every every property every property stands on each other and and just to assar any concerns you may have uh Jeremy uh the reason why this review is so thorough is because I do not want that to happen where it's so uh pardon my uh informality but so ly goozy that someone says oh you designated 320 why not us that is why there were so much of effort and so many pictures taken and very specific language so I we don't want that okay uh so my next question is probably more for our our council members so again another concern I have about this is it seemingly might be a little bit premature given the fact that we did the master plan and we do want to do smart goals and smart growth um but the council has not yet started the strategy definition implementation around updating the zoning in the town center and extended Town Center so can you maybe take a minute and give us an update as to where you are on that process I think those two things are quite separate the planning board at this point is is reviewing this application or this uh uh request for the area need of Redevelopment and the council sent it to the planning board uh because we want the planning board's review so clearly the council's intention is to do something with this at this point so uh that's all I think is necessary really to comment on that I mean I don't also add that at the last council meeting one council member actually wanted to put the brakes on rezoning on redoing the zoning code so I where is it I don't know we can ask Sam where is it so from my end um the TC Zone has been uh prepared it's in a draft format it's not that I've stopped doing any work and I just want to make it very clear that um I've been working very diligently and I presented a month ago the C2 zoning which uh was very essential because there are properties that need to basically come back onto the tax rool so um my my end there is no there are no breaks from my end unless the governing body tells me stop working then I'll put my pencil down but right now this was a priority because uh it's um and just so that everybody on the board understands that I don't do any work you you know it's not I don't have blinders on I always look at it holistically that's that's my role as a planner so uh please be uh please be assed of any concerns that it's not going to be some halfhazard development and there's a lot of thought that I have put in my concern isn't that it's a haphazard development it's more that we take a holistic look at this because it's my understanding and I rewatched the two Council meetings from last August September that the property owner came to the council specifically to ask for this specifically because he wanted a pilot um so I'm just looking for Clarity on whether the council would have even considered this outside of this owner's request because they're supposed to show hardship which again according to the what I've reviewed from the council hasn't been presented yet and it seems just a unique approach that someone approached the council and said hey please do this because I want a pilot well the I can tell you I don't know anything about the pilot but the um the property owner did approach the the town to do it that that I know um other than that I'm not sure you know I don't know any of the details or reasons or whatever but I mean I watched the presentation he specifically said it in his presentation that he wanted a pilot okay I will add that almost every single pilot or area in need of Redevelopment started by going to the Verona Town Council and asking for it and then it went through the process maybe it didn't always happen by coming forth publicly at a meeting maybe it happened in a private meeting between the manager and this one and that one and the zoning code department and whatever but that's the only way that they can have it a property owner has to approach the Town Council and ask for this no why why can't it be how it's happened every time in Verona um I'm not sure about that but that's not how it has to happen I don't I can't U that's not how it has to happen has iten howse has it happened but mean where has the governing B for instance the area in need of Rehabilitation the governing body which is different than an area need of Redevelopment the governing body asked the board to make that determination um the governing body certainly can ask the board to you know look at a certain section of say Grove Avenue and and make the determination it it can happen either way I mean Verona I'm just going to say Anon Verona Place keep going they all went in fact Verona Place went through a board meeting or two and then they were like you know what this isn't going to work for me financially and then they went to the council and then they started their board meeting hearings again um and and the same with an in FL but that's fine where where I've been trying to go with this though is we did the master plan we want to set out strategic goals I feel like we're not taking a holistic look at this and what is what do you think I'm not arguing whether I agree or disagree with you but what about this do you find is not meeting any of the goals of the master plan just it's not just the goal the standard applied is very broad I there's a host of properties along Bloomfield that you can apply this standard to unfortunate because they basically made it so your backyard would fit this that's what I'm so I'm trying to but have let's take a holistic well let me let me say this the the way to protect your the goals would be the creation of the overlay zone right just because it's an area in need of Redevelopment does not mean that now there can be a six-story building there has to be a a Zone created a Redevelopment agreement and a Redevelopment plan the Redevelopment plan will set forth specifically what is allowed right and this property owner has stated he wanted a three-story building he wanted what a three story building well that's that's not up to the property I understand that but that was what was expressed so so again I'm trying to think about this holistically and strategically rather than just applying it once and being done with it Madam chairwoman can I yes jump in go ahead I think it's important to note that the planning board's responsibility this time is to review to determine whether there should be an area of need of Redevelopment based on this report this is now the second time that Mr katf has brought up the Town Council in discussions and trying to question finances and things like that that is way outside the purview of the planning board well mayor i i in defense of a board member and you are a board member um it's been the practice of this board for the 23 years that I've been the attorney for the board that the board takes a legitimate interest in all issues tangental or direct and the board sometimes gets off on tangents um but there's always been a lot of latitude in what is discussed um I think it's important the questions that are asked so that anybody in the public might become informed whether it be on you know tape or TV or whatever might be informed about the process how is development and the master plan promoted like we just talked about with you know the the Redevelopment plan um you know the this board is an has been and always is an open board um and I would really it would I I would not counsel the board to keep topics closed I'm in favor of and I think it's my responsibility to tell the board that you know you can talk about whatever you want I I agree with Mr masar the way that he's described this board we've always been able to discuss whatever however well you're you're kind of arguing sorry kind of arguing against a practice in Municipal land use law that I'm not arguing against and I'd also like to respond directly at tamboro this is the second time I've received a sanctimonious lecture on this the Constitution protects my right to come here and speak openly on this I'm not in your classroom okay please treat me with respect just as I've been treating everybody else I'm asking the questions politely and openly and I'm not retorting that way Mr katf if you attended one of my classes you would know that the first amendment is not the situation when you're here as a member of the board the First Amendment doesn't protect you necessarily as a board member if you want to comment publicly then that's different uh but this isn't a First Amendment issue my point Mr katf is that we seem to be taking the board down rabbit holes that really don't apply we have a very simple job right now and the simple job is to review this thorough report to determine whether the thorough report allows for this to be I I'm asking those questions and I apologize if you don't like those questions I am allowed to ask those questions you can you can ask whatever question you want but at the same point I think you need to understand your role as a member of this board thanks I understand my Mr koff's line of questions I think are very legitimate and reasonable and promot the right discussion so I'm in support of Mr katsof being able to pursue these questions I I think it's our vote that is bound by the laws not the discussion right I I'm sorry I think I just blanked everybody I think I just cut everyone's mic I'm just getting ready for L been dying getting ready um I absolutely agree we've always had open discussions here even if sometimes we every single one of us have been guilty of going off topic and you know kind of don't Tim you are absolutely not one that's ever done that whatever the case um you are not go I'm over here I don't know if you're looking at me you're not um uh being you know tied and told that you can't ask questions the the the bottom line I'm sorry apparently am no no you're not look can we just take this down a notch please I'm asking you thank you um let's just I think we need to move forward right now we do have a job I understand your concern with creating a property that would potentially set a president like the two across the street from it that already set that president in 2014 and then again in 2017 with Anon and well there's no let me's no understand that but but that's what he's basically saying that then somebody can come and say they did it why can't I me say this because that's Jeremy um I think you'd be interested the very beginning of this the chairwoman said to me who's going to write the Redevelopment plan okay and in the past the planning board has written the Redevelopment plans the planning board wrote the um the Anon Redevelopment plan the planning board wrote the um Verona Place Redevelopment plan um I don't think the planning board will be writing this Redevelopment plan because the the planning board's um role has kind of been diminished in the last few years um but that's something that the chairwoman asked that if in our recommendation we could request it to let the planning board write it because that's really what the planning board does um but that's for the council to determine but it was even you know Jess that had asked me if if we could put that in the recommendation to protect us because that would be that's fine I mean I'm done with my line of questionings we can move on thank you I'm done with my line of questions now more I mean I do have more but I don't want to hear about it so I'm going to pass and pass it let's just move forward I'm good okay all right councilman Roman has his hand up but I'm going a parking lot that uh statement there he's got his hand up okay oh all right M please yeah I'm just wanted to offer sort of a separate response and I'm you know speaking for myself here when we look at these proposals for areas in need of Redevelopment you know if it was a a town the township would look at this if it was much much larger like if we had Brown or if we had a substantial amount of underutilized industrial space or so on would be where you might have the Town Council starting to try and develop Redevelopment plans um when I look at these plan when these proposals are brought forward to the council by the developers I look at the properties themselves and try to determine first off are they substandard or underutilized in their current condition meeting one of these Criterion and if so is it likely to be economically and practically redevelop without the presence of an area in need of Redevelopment um and then when we do look at an area in need of Redevelopment rather than worrying so much about you know pilots and things like that are things we talk about much much later they're not you know for our discussion of land use they're part of the early they're not part of the early discussions um and I I look at the context of the land use this is one of those things where you kind of have to have to trust a little bit the reason why there's two council members on this board is so that there can be a flow back and forth between the board and the township Council and I always try and express the intent of the planning board when we discuss these things at the council I try and say Here's what the planning board thought about this as we were going through the master plan discussions here's where we're coming from and why we should do this and we try and scale these developments appropriately for the downtown we're intending to try and have the Township's best interests at heart in these things um so my questions to the planner are generally what other sorts of things might happen on this parcel absent in area in need of Redevelopment are there other possibilities for it or is it essentially such an awkward piece of land that what's there is likely to stay and that's really the question is is there an opportunity here to put some land into more productive use here in the township without you know again putting a six-story building on it and on the concept of creating precedent um Mr masera has advised us over and over and over and over that we do not create precedent when we make these decisions um even if somebody wants to argue that it still does not actually create a precedent that has to be followed each one of these proposals is evaluated on its own individual merits and and whether or not represents good land use planning so my thought on the matter I understand all of that and I appreciate that that was like a relevant response and I didn't even get to the whole what the Alternatives yet but again yes we have to do it on its individual merits I totally understand that Jeremy we also have a master plan and I just wanted to ask questions around that to help me inform my decision the application um May I interject I I I will say this don't just keep talking over other people because you're upset and I get it I I was going to add an example sorry of the the president that doesn't exist just to elay your worry about that but I'm not going to now because I feel cut off by you the way you felt cut off by another please s we're GNA have to move forward because this is just not going very well doc would you like to ask a question I'd like to make a comment okay great I've been in town over 50 years former customer of Verona aluminum and I'll tell you when I see this presentation there's no question in my mind that this is an area in need of Redevelopment I was there when Verona aluminum was a thriving business before before it went out and to see these pictures it it's it's sort of breaks my heart that the business isn't there anymore and there's no question that it is an area in need of Redevelopment thank you do uh son a couple of questions on why not a versus D I know the language is very similar I would I wouldn't do a because again um the why not a against d um I I didn't want to do a because I did not go into the Interiors of each and every building and um D is D um you know when I say that it's General um this is at no point am I saying that my report is General my report is very specific as to why it meets the criteria and then secondly as a planner who actually worked on your master plan um and it's not relevant to what we're doing but I just want to may I just because we are having an open discussion I just want to let everybody know that um be ever since I got appointed as your planner um I do have developers who would reach out saying hey can we do this that and the other and at no point having worked on your master plan am I going to recommend something that would change the character but at the same time um I want everyone to also understand that when we want to revitalize uh the Bloomfield Avenue Corridor uh Redevelopment happens when existing zoning doesn't give the most optimal results I'm not talking about Verona specifically I'm talking about Redevelopment in general so uh please understand that when this was written um I didn't go into this project trying to say hey will this satisfy the criteria as much as let's take a look at it holistically to see whether it satisfies the criteria and have enough evidence to document that so that there is no room left for ambiguity so okay great on that on that note and very thorough and just for the record you know I'm inclined to agree with your your your assessment here but I do want to know you know what crosses the threshold into D because well if you came to my house unannounced you might think it's an but you know uh I spruce it up a little bit no well a little worried you know there's different between stuff lying around I have to tell you I had the same question asked on Monday Night by uh one of the governing body members saying what if you say if you come and say my home meets the criteria I said no that's not how it that's not how it works you know do do do you have structural issues are you are your P are your building um your roof falling down is well is is patching a roof is patching a roof with other we look at the property we so that's something and and you know again I'm not trying to make fun of you no and I that in seriously these are a lot of what makes this broken right A lot of people lay people would think that but that's not how it it works when uh you know when there is no stom M Management on a site that's fully impervious um when when your um when the building is deteriorating when you're not um there nobody wants to go the the read weapon route right when you're existing zoning fails for certain properties this is why the state of New Jersey has these separate regulations in place and this is why we have the lrhl great does that answer a question yeah no that does I hope I was not uh I put myself out there but I seriously that this and and it's the combination of all of them I see it too you know and then this goes to Mr can's I think you know pointing out the Strategic things in our master plan is so I see this you know I could see why the owner by the way Verona aluminum's out of business yeah okay great so um why they would come and present this but like if I look at this strategically you know there's that parking lot I guess it's for Henry's or whatever like like if we were doing this I'd make that whole Square not this L an area of need of Redevelopment I would include Lot 19 right I I can't do that unless the governing body says examine that because because that is strategic and that is cover like now we're going to get an L-shaped weird building because someone's going to combine the Lots after we do this because that's how the game we don't know that yet yeah but know too that even Mone even with the parking lot that I that was not what I was tasked with I was tasked with this now please note that um it that parking lot is under uh it's in an area in need of Rehabilitation should the governing body decide at a later date do something about it it's different but please note that you can't stop that L shape just because you think this that goes back to the point um you know Greg made that if you go down Bloomfield uh Avenue Corridor to other towns too there'll be plenty of um properties that might meet the criteria but that's that directive has to come to me from the governing no no no fair enough and but I think this is you know where I will say um um uh the recommendations for the Redevelopment plan I haven't been through this before but the building owner has to want that the property owner own two separate properties right and the property owner of one already rebuilt their thing are they two separate owners yeah yeah so I mean this is on their building and theyed that but I mean there's that lot there I don't know who owns the lot there's the empty lot but you know the the thing is and I think this goes to uh we should be um uh very assertive and opinionated on our recommendations to the governing body because the last time with sunset uh I was underwhelmed with the the Redevelopment plan that came out of that when we were asked to revisit it we saw it and and we were told look the town gets great leverage in this and I honestly I think could have been levered a lot better so you know I I I'm going to hold off on recommendations I think except like you know working out some deal we have that combined Park whatever what uh you know part of our master plan about shared parking uh that Lot 19 might be uh significant considerations I've got others but um my questions are over thank you mayor too since I alluded to the question this is for S um if this were not declared an area in need of Redevelopment what is most likely to happen with the parcels in your opinion and what are the other potentials for the parcels under underlying zoning the if it were not declared as a ER in need of re uh Redevelopment right um it would continue to remain the way it is because um you know some when you Zone Parcels in a particular way um if con conventional zoning would be um would be applicable or feasible properties don't go through the read weapon route so you know what could go did I analyze it I analyzed you know like for example 11 Church Street it's 7 7,700 square foot um lot right um it doesn't meet the ETC Zone criteria uh there are the way the site sits to is uh um it it may not meet may not meet all of the ET Zone requirements um so um you know if conventional zoning were were feasible like going back to what Henry's did to improve their property I don't think they would have anybody would want to go through the Redevelopment route it's a it's a time consuming process um because one you go through the Redevelopment you have a redev and plan which is an ordinance okay then you come back before the planning board for a full sight plan review if conventional zoning worked why would they want to do that at added you know uh time and expense and uh what have you so so I hope that answer I I hope that's clear right it it kind of sounds like a lot of this has to do with lot sizes and considerations Lots under utilization and sort of unless there was someone who was able to create a larger assemblage of land and and try and merge lots and do a larger project it would be unlikely that this would be rebuilt to more current standard buildings given the the lot sizes and shapes yeah I mean this size with both the Lots Consolidated it's 0.55 you can do something decent now um a Redevelopment plan would control what would go there right but at the same time there there are other uh things that one would take into consideration while designing in terms of you know um how are you improving the site are you uh you know when you look at uh Bloomfield Avenue Corridor you want to maintain nobody wants to put a six-story building there which has H by the way happened in other towns but um Verona's governing body based on my conversations uh with you guys you and your colleagues has been that okay you understand that there is a need for revitalizing bloomfi uh Avenue Corridor there is a need in a town which is predominantly uh residential to the need of vitables we recognize that in even when we were writing the master plan but at the same time that doesn't mean someone comes in and changes the character of the neighborhood that message was very loud and clear in all the governing body me um meetings I attended since December of last year November December and you know just offering my opinion here I would agree that that's the general direction of the governing body we've gotten a lot of feedback being concerned about the scale of a lot of of a lot of development that goes on particularly on the bfield Avenue Corridor and this is us being responsive to it by not you know not immediately not saying yes to very large buildings when these developers do propose them and we do push back so I I I would agree and I've had that um feedback from you um when I say you I mean all of you not just you cilman uh Roman all right thank you very much May just a couple things I picked up on when hearing there was a with regards the parking lot that is to the west of this property um the the property owners who asked for this to be considered for an area of need of Redevelopment or paying for the study and so on did not purchase that property I think and even talking to them I don't even know if they tried but there's issues purchasing that parking lot there have historically been people have tried the uh because of when you actually look at the concept plan for this the parking would be behind the buildings the parking would be off of Church Street and the building would be on um bfield Avenue the there were like just there was just enough room for the parking spaces to fit in a building of the size that they're proposing so even adding more building they would actually have a parking problem so I don't think they spent a lot of time looking that necessarily at that so I I do want to throw in that that's why we're looking at this lot because they're the ones who asked for it and they're also the ones paying for the study um the uh just some general comments I lived actually on this property for 10 years in one of the residential units not the one falling apart that was on the screen my my house was really nice actually uh I rented from for own aluminum from 10 years and uh and one of the the big problems with piece of property is that has a significant grade right in the middle of it it is which makes it very hard to develop on and and very hard to make unified So the plan that the the uh Property Owners came in with was to have a building on boomf foot Avenue and then I think the parking would actually connect like the second story like they had a whole thing like because of the grade and it made a lot of sense that the way they did it or even might have been the third story I can't remember um you have to realize none of us have so so what I'm saying is it's the my my point being um that in a in a matter like this looking at this in a in a vacuum uh that property is very difficult to get a really good use out of um because of the Topography of it and I think the reason why and and Council Roman you can correct me if I'm wrong but one of the reasons why I put this forth to be considered was because it was there was a thoughtful concept for what this could become um and that area of town is very peace meal in in the the way it is and there and that property is really not adding anything to the value of the community um this will certainly add some things there and presumably with some residential traffic there it would add to the business development and stuff in that area that would fulfill the goals of our master plan in doing that um so I I think it's a something worth considering and um and I was looking forward to this report on that um but knowing knowing that site very well uh I intimately as a matter of fact uh I can say that uh the the conclusions of this report are quite valid and we'd be hardpressed to find another solution for this lot and I I I also would like to add uh Mr Mayor if I may um I have been in conversation with um the owners their attorney and um they've been very uh uh very cous in terms of heard me out U you know I expressed my concerns about certain things I would like and they they were very very forthcoming um but um you you know so that's all I want to say about that and the only the only final thing that I'll add just to make it more complicated is that it's really not an oddly shaped lot it's that it's two lots that are adjacent to one another yes that um the owner owns both and so it's almost a I don't want to call it a self-re hardship of the oddly Shake where have we seen that before uh yeah we saw that once on Arnold Way um but whatever the case I you know a little bit in well that that's that's why jar the the vote is for each lot I mean this is an area in need of Redevelopment so you take the Lots together as the area in need of Redevelopment but somehow you have to take each lot on their own which is what s did yeah so examine each lot but basically the conclusion is that the area individually they meet but the area together meets the criteria and this is why all right I think I think um this board has had pretty good opportunity sorry to um State their case and to ask questions is anybody in further need of any further questions no I don't have any questions certainly have statements on the I'm ask a motion yeah um but as far as voting I'm then yes I'm going to ask if somebody would like to make a motion to find these two properties 320 Bloomfield Avenue and 11 Church Street um if they meet that they do meet the criteria D and H um to be considered an area in need of Redevelopment sorry I'd like to make that motion I'll second it the doc has okay Al de old makes the motion mayor tamboro seconds can we please have a roll call vote and then we will discuss whatever recommendations we would like to send along with this okay fair I think you should vote on the you should add the recommendations prior to voting okay so that thank you people don't make a recommendation that they're not that's why you're the lawyer and I'm not order of operations very good so um say that again it's in the order of operations here that's very good right yes oh I mean this is what we have for we need him so does anybody have recommendations that they would like to send with this vote so yeah I'll start I thought them out is you know um one I recommend that we write the the the plan okay okay I fully agree with that yeah that's one uh that we asked the governing body to let us handle that with our planner yes say and our attorney okay uh you know that covers everything I personally think we should um you know make it incentivize the share parking that we've talked about in our master plan such that whatever plan that we haven't seen can be adjusted for more building and less you know unnecessary parking when there's a pretty much a lot right there if they can make a deal with that owner more building I don't know no more building like less burdened by parking because we apply shared space and I leave it at that uh reducing penetrable surface um um r i i just that's that's that's kind of basic concept I mean it's hard not to but looking for you know things that are that are not then then we write the plan right exactly okay come back home okay is that your any recommendation thank you Mr K do you have any recommendation know doc David I think the planning board should write the plan I think the issue with one Sunset was because there was a legal agreement on that was a Redevelopment agreement that was a very different yeah that's why the planning board didn't write that but the planning board should be doing that that's the planning board's job so I am fully in support of that because I know the town count it's not really the town council's role to do that so maybe we would have support and we could have significant input on what the outcome of this would be which would be great and we get to work with s and it would be super for fun um okay are there any further recommendations that anybody would like to add if not um and everybody agrees with Mr Cudi's okay can you please call the rooll I already made the mo the motion was made by Doc and and you still support the motion you still second the same motion yeah thank you Mr CF no Mr coodi yes Mr de yes councilman Roman yes may Boro yes Vice chairman fresy yes chairperson Pearson yes uh the motion passes and um um Mike is somebody wait are you going to write some we write the recommendation right resolution rewrite the resolution actually do we want to pass a resolution at the next meeting yeah so you're going to help and okay thank you I just want to make sure I'm not doing it anymore no no no I that's why I wanted to know if uh Greg wanted me to write it or um perfect the less work I do the happier I am take he okay um oh just uh a quick update for everyone and then we can uh adjourn if it's okay Mr oan could make it tonight uh did ask him to keep us posted about the municipal stor waterer management plan he did send me an email 15,000 sorry $115,000 were received upfront from the D for the municipal storm waterer management plan it is to be used very specifically to hit uh conditions of our Municipal storm water permit sweeping mapping update States public education um and the remaining $10,000 comes in after we hit all of the conditions in our permit I think that we're pretty good on all of our conditions this is an email I'm just reading it verbatim but we are tracking down old GIS files to see how much of an update is necessary to our existing maps and then he just added that our former uh engineering firm is not being very respons to all their yeah you know how that happens so um I just wanted to make sure that everybody had an update on that I'm not sure where it is in in the process but maybe we'll get more next month okay does anybody else have any new business motion to adour I will second that motion thank God thank you I I [Music] mot non the resolution is just you just have to notify the council under the statute so