she's just about to throw me off of this planning board so bad with the computer okay good evening everybody and welcome to this regular planning board meeting on February 22nd 2024 Madam Secretary can you please please call the r Mr Bernardo Mr katf here Mr Lily here Mr here Mr coody here Mr deal here Mr solivan here councilman Roman here Vice chair presy chair Pearson here we also have Mr mcar and this is um Mr Paul fero and he is engineer from Bosa did I miss you the mayor the mayor's here just for the record for the record can everybody please rise and say the Pledge of [Music] Allegiance IED to the FL of the United States of America and to the Republic stand Adam secretary can you please read the compliance statement the notice requirements of the open public meetings act has been satisfied with respect to the meeting of the Verona planning board being held in person in the ballroom of the Verona Community Center the time and date of this meeting were included in the annual meeting notice posted in the community center and sent to the official newspapers of the township the Verona Cedar Grove times and the Star Ledger at least 48 Hours preceding the start time of this meeting a public comment period will be held in the order it is listed on the meeting agenda and instructions on how to comment will be provided at the appropriate time all meetings are recorded those wishing to speak during any public comment period should only provide their name and municipality street addresses are not required please be advised that should a member of the public choose to State their street address it will not be redacted from this recording thank you um it seems that the oath of office has been given to our new class two member Kevin O Sullivan welcome we're so happy to have you thank you um public participation any members of the public have any thing that they'd like to State please okay there are no members of the public presid um moving on to letter F approval of meeting minutes um everybody has received a copy the meeting minutes from the meeting held December 7th 2023 has everybody had a chance to review and appended to them are the resolutions that were passed at that meeting um if any has does anyone have any comments or Corrections commending on theing of names and um and like that ni very see my name can I get a motion to approve the meeting minutes motion motion M okay you got that Mr Hinman Mr coody Seconds okay um do we need to take a vote no no no members to approve I any disapprove or don't approve and any abstentions I will abstain my absence I'll abstain okay I will also abstain and Mr Lily all right the meeting minutes are approved um moving on to a discussion brief discussion for subcommittee updates um the master plan subcommittee has a member that would like to St back and a member that would like to step up so there's going to be a switch out right um the mayor would like to take your place right okay so truth truth that is the truth truth truth du yeah yeah all right so that's going to happen we have a vacancy on the site plan sub and subdivision committee um I have graciously asked Kevin uh Kevin's background is he is uh also an engineer besides being the deputy manager of the township and he um accepted taking that role if there are any other members that want to be on architect site or landscape please speak now because we can have up to four on any of these subcommittees so if anybody wants to also throw their weight on a different subcommittee please let us know okay um moving along along that line we have an ms4 permit um I have been discussing some of this with our Deputy manager and Mr uh Fel ferero Ferrera so easy without that IE um it would be so much easier uh about okay you're so much easy so we have an ms4 permit that we're not uh that we need to be compliant with and part of that is creating a municipal storm owner management plan um with the master plan subcommittee um that's definitely top of our list to get done um Kevin can you speak to any sort of schedule that you know that we can begin to deal with our planner and possibly our engineers in order to put this whole thing together sure I I have had some prary discussions with Mr perrero regarding the uh the creation and the process for the municipal storm order management plan uh Boswell will be assisting with that there is uh money still available in a a bond ordinance that was established for the master plan so we will be coordinating some of these early discussions with Boswell and then as it uh becomes uh a a more fruitful document for discussion for the planning board we'll we'll F in planning board discussion at that point as well well the whole point of having the master plan subcommittee is to have sessions with even though it's a very formulaic um portion of the master plan I've looked through dozens of other townships um they basically all have the same thing with just data shift within the document but generally speaking it's a 36 to 40 page or 30 to 40 page document depending on the size of the township and the data just changes but still we should um look to at least a brief meeting to kick this off we generally meet on Zoom um we have done so very much so at like the 4:00 in the afternoon time frame if that could work for the committee members um because that also enables Kathleen to sign on from her office without having to call her back in at 7 o'clock at night and you know when we're all meeting from home um and on our computers and and just have like a brief kickoff session what goals we're going to attain with this and who will be working with it and then I mean isn't that how we did the master plan pretty much yes okay um do you have any comments on this because I I know that Jay and I spoke um outside of this meeting about how we would attack this and yeah know that that's 100% in line you know we'll just have a brief kickoff we'll senor off to the professionals get an idea of what your timeline is for getting that skeleton of the document then the subcommittee will take a look at it again yeah before we present it yeah my suggestion would be is the DP has a standard Pro fora basically of this element and I will hand that out as the homework before the meeting so you kind of know what blanks you're going to be looking to fill in yeah that sounds good I I can get that circulated okay um do we expect to bring uh our h2m planners in on this as well um to just give it a look uh give it a look or do you think that this is more of an engineering standard I think it's just so technical that I don't I mean I don't think it's necessary okay uh you know I think in the end it would be something obviously that they will review but I don't think as far as the input yeah I don't think there's really a reason for that I think certainly would like to have them review it yeah review it sure but too many cooks in the kitchen okay all right so it'll we'll just get back to our regular uninterrupted Zoom meetings all over again um does that satisfy yeah what are we um what are we looking at in terms of time frame for the kickoff like March after our next planning board meeting that's a trick question because I don't know when your next planning room um get you the the DP format okay and I I think it'd be a good idea for everybody to to look at that I can send it to Kathleen yes that would be the best place to do it you can look at it and kind of formulate the questions and based on that we said at the meeting that we want to perfect okay yeah we don't want it to get away from us we already feel like we're you know kind of behind a little on this so um all right um and yeah all right so is there any other comments or questions about any of the other subcommittees before we move on okay um moving on to we have no resolutions this evening and we're going to move right on to consistency determination um and I'm going to then hand it over to you and thank you very much for coming okay no problem first uh I will maybe steal Greg's Thunder a little bit and it's your the planning board's purpose in this instance is to determine whether or not the proposed ordinance is inconsistent or technically it's not inconsistent with a master plan how about consistent well well you see not inconsistent I'll tell you why it's not I'll tell you why you say it's not inconsistent because I can virtually assure you that your master plan doesn't say everything in these ordinances therefore it's not consistent but conversely is also not inconsistent so that's why you make the not inconsistent finding for as absurd that sounds like it is is your bon I don't know there go yeah maybe it is now okay so that's that that's why I think the the not inconsistent finding is like I said it's absurd but that's really what it needs to be um there are two ordinances that are in front of you um one of the first one is chapter 55 where the storm water management section of the code is being repealed and replaced with a new section called storm water management controls and requirements uh and the important word in this is controls because this is the ordinance that sets the design standard for storm water management in the township um the the ms4 per permit which is Municipal separate storm sewer system um is a permit uh issued by the state to the to the township every town in the state and one of the obligations is that you update your ordinance um to be consistent with the state requirements under njac 7 colon 8 which are the storm water management rules um and that's a minimum standard now I'll briefly talk about the minimum standards and then I'll talk about where Verona has gone uh beyond that the minimum standards basically are fundamentally the same as they were as they have been for major development for some time where you have to address water quality groundwater recharge and rate reductions the difference that happens is first off a couple years ago the green infrastructure requirements came in that's already in there and that's also codified in the these new regulations and the other thing that's been done um is that the design storms have been modified because it's been recognized by the state that what's the the rainfall for the 210 and the 100-year storms aren't the same as they were when those storms were first established in 1999 so there's a requirement first and foremost that you increase the design storms to what is considered the current 2024 storm and that's roughly 5% greater for those different storm events and it varies depending on where you are in the state furthermore there's a second analysis that you have to do is to make sure the storm water works for the projected year 2100 storm that increases those design storms by depending again where you are between 20 and 50% so it's a substantially much larger storm that needs to be controlled so that's that's the the overarching state standard now where Verona has gone above and beyond this um are in two ways the first one is redefinition of what a major development is uh consistent with the Watershed Institute recommendations formerly under the state regulation state regulations it's an acre of impr acre of disturbance or a quarter acre or more of impervious uh surfaces and that has actually a look back to 2004 um uh someday I will tell you how I'm going to figure that out to see if somebody Disturbed more than an acre of their land cumulatively since 2004 but that's what the requirement is under the Verona definitions of major development I'll flip to them here um the major development is the area of disturbance is down to a half an acre and the impervious surface is 5,000 square feet so that that basically has the state existed they were carried over from the ordinance right yes yes I'm sorry yes that that's true but that's where Verona is above and beyond what the state standard is another thing that's been added is something that I've carried around with me for for 20 years and I have conversations with Jessica in the town it's the concept of a minor development because 5,000 ft of impervious on an 8,000 ft lot is really a lot of impervious before you have to do anything so there's a a standard been developed for what is called a minor development and that is defined as 400 squ F feet or more of new impervious surface or 2500 square ft or more of disturbance uh the standards there are relatively benign uh kind of rain Gardens dry Wells are the green infrastructure requirements that are recommended for those projects they're not I like I said I've been doing these for for well over 20 years in in many different municipalities and what it does it really helps cumulatively what happens in a neighborhood and requires some regulation the 2500 square foot disturbance number is in there because sometimes times you have a a disturbance on a property that's not more than 400 square feet somebody's regrading their yard and you can get mud running onto the neighbor's property so the standard for that is the requirement for soil erosion and sediment control like Sil fence that's what you have to do if you have 2500 feet of disturbance the reason why we've put that in there is because under the overarching regulations under the county Sol Conservation District the threshold is 5,000 square feet again that's a big number in a in a town with lots the size of AA so that's really what the uh the nuts and bolts are of this ordinance we can get into technicalities about some of the calculation methods that have been thrown out and are no longer acceptable but your eyes will really glaze over very very quickly I can assure you of that I think the only other thing that could be brought to light is that this ordinance has been enhanced to give the the towned administrators much more control and oversight over what is installed especially on major developments so every year a major development um and this is a new section will have to register their bmps or their storm water management U mechanisms whatever they are whether they're green infrastructure or they're gray and pay a fee and have an inspection and have a report drafted for for that inspection to ensure that their storm water management is in working and good order so that it doesn't need to undergo any kind of uh upgrades or service in order to ensure again against flooding and that's and that's really important fundamentally for two reasons the first is the obvious that storm water management facilities need to be maintained um I've spoken to a number of groups a number of different times and they always tell me well we've been doing detention basin since the 60s and none of it works and I counter with go out and look at them they don't work because they're not maintained it's like they don't exist so you have all this development for the last 60 years with no storm water management that's fundamentally what's occurring uh the other reason why it's important is because under your ms4 permit the township is required to make sure that all these facilities are maintained by incorporating the ordinance like this you kind of save a step you create a mechanism by which you put the obligation on these BMP owners to report to the municipality and make sure that's done and that allows you to check that off your list so you can get that done um Madam chair I just have it's um unfortunately overing things um minor development includes definition of major development so in other words 400 more Square fet impious surface could be considered so let me go back if you have more than 5,000 sare ft of regulated imperious coverage okay or new imperious coverage that fits the definition of both major and minor so I think there should just be just so that no one can come before us and argue you could say and less than 5,000 exactly and you can say in less than a half acre right so that would be a a suggestion that I would suggest that the board the council how do you clean that up uh just just by having Greg put that to the council and it can be it's a minor change that can be incorporated upon a doc actually the easiest way a minor development is any development comma other than a major development that results in okay yeah that's the simplest way that's fine does anyone have take issue with that would you consider that a substantive no no not at all clarification good because I don't want them to have to go through this whole thing all over again the council they've already done first reading okay um did you over lawyer anything else no that's that's just I can see somebody you know coming before us and with an application saying no it fits the definition of a minor and therefore we want it to be Tre even though it's right so they wouldn't be held to the same level I understand okay um does anyone else have any particular questions on the ordinance uh just to confirm aside from updating some of the tables um the storm water events and and those triggers were there any other substa of changes well there were there are that are deeply buried in there that are pretty technical in nature for example through I mean the sections look pretty similar I didn't go through word by word I I I can tell you for example used to be that Engineers would design projects using what was called the modified rational method okay which Engineers love because it makes the storm Water Management Systems about 25% the size of if you used the T what is called the tr55 or um method methodology excuse me so what the DP has done is they've taken that out you cannot use the modified rational method for sizing detention basins anymore you can still use the M rational method for sizing pipes because that's really the only method to use for that but you can't take this shortcut and make these small Basin because I've seen plenty of them and I've always had problems with them but I couldn't do anything because that's it was permitted under the regulation so these are all just mostly technical changes yeah oh yeah okay um we did change a couple of I mean again it was a little bit substantive we we added the terminology from uh Twi the retention standard which is basically 1 half of the projected 2100 2ear storm times the co the change factor which is I think 1.18 which comes out to 3.4 2.04 in that have has to be withheld on any new or remaining if it was a Redevelopment and they had some impervious that wasn't moving and staying and if they add new all of it has to be controlled for that um so it's not just the change the whole everything yeah was Prett yeah that's a a definitely good thing especially because we also hold Redevelopment has to conduct storm water um in the minor developments we changed gallons to inches yes okay for retention purposes and if a minor development goes over, 1500 square fet of new impervious surface they must soil test to ensure that they themselves their own basements and their neighbors basements uh don't become overwhelmed runoff from all of that new and prvious surface and the soil is capable of the detention whether it's um you know a rain Garden the soil can actually infiltrate the water uh that will be running off based on um the entire basically you you even said it in one of our work sessions you said it's not just anything above 400 the 400 that kicks it off right is included in whatever new impervious is added if somebody puts in 600 square F feet they don't control 200 they control they control 600 um and I I I can't tell you how many times I've had that argument might I suggest because that is a confusing thing and I don't know whether it would be a substantive change to just correct the language on that clarification is not substance okay can we clarify that you know 400 new square feet may be the trigger but that the entirety of the impervious added including the first 400 square feet that trigger it are necessary to include in your calculations let me let me find the section on minor development it's like page 22 or something I think section seven well what it says is for each square foot of increased impervious surface I I I think it's already there increased increased yeah for each square foot of increased in Pur okay I just wanted to ensure that I think it's there okay so and and there are some P some documentation and maintenance plans that minor developments also need to hand in um but it's it's much more abbreviated oh yeah then the major development the idea is not to burden people but also to make it responsible but I mean for these additional I mean you are going to need an engineer for this right so you're putting in a patio certainly once you get about, 1500 you're putting in a patio you trigger the 400 and you're going to need an engineered maybe but maybe what we talk about is to create some stereotypical calculations and those sorts of things that can be handed out with these Department applications so the resident can do it for example I have one town that what they do is they say for every square feet needs a drive that's so many inches deep right I they'll need someone to do the soil testing well that's once you get over 50 oh okay think about that yeah I know my my concern was the 400 trigger it's like you're doing something minor and it goes from just hiring a contractor to OK right and that and that's why that's why we talked about creating these these templates good yeah a legal and procedural question here um Clause number seven requires you to record a conservation easement or deed restriction that's in the state or can we discuss the complexity administrative burden to the homeowner of you know let's assume that I you know well that's for major development right section 7 under 15 on page 23 sorry page 23 did you say yes okay does does the state ordinance require that restriction for minor devel I mean if we're if we're defining the minor development it's not part of the state code do we need to actually Force someone to record an encumbrance against their property the answer to that is no which number is it seven seven table it's under table eight well the the problem is is if somebody does put green infrastructure on site that needs to stay there because it it it's basically a natural pipe or a natural holding cell a natural the idea is to keep people from filling in a rain Garden or putting a pool where the drywall was exactly right what what is then let's assume that you want to move it to the other side of your lot if you do want to Rel landscape or something like that I'm just you know that's the question for me is is that is is that a bridge too far to require someone to encumber their title yeah and and that you have I mean I can see making someone maintain it as long but what if you rip the patio out yeah well it says other acceptable legal measures I mean if they're getting site plan approval it's just well it wouldn't be site plan approval for a single family home in a small addition it it may not me to go before a land use sport true um I just worry that if there isn't some sort of protection of that area that people could just pave over it or put basketball court you know whatever well we're talking about a 20 x 20 foot patio triggering you to have to go and record a conservation easement on your tit plus is you're not selling it no one is going to prevent you from pay Paving it over or or changing the conservation issue may maybe a way and I'm just I'm just uh Thinking Out Loud a little bit here because I I recognized the issue and I've heard it before I most of my towns do not require the filing of an easement but perhaps a way to do it is you have the owner sign an acknowledgement that they have this that gets recorded in their block and lot folder in in the town with the with the map attached to it so it basically comes something enforcable by the town and recorded in the town so if somebody comes in for a permit to put a a swimming pool where the drywell was or this grain Garden was and somebody's aware of it and it doesn't get lost so would it just simply need to be a recorded easement with the township of forona no it would it would not be a recorded easement the town can't record so how do we well it would be like a notation on their tax C like ass be something that would develop with with the the township attorneys as the right word and everybody would sign the same documents so my question is this what Greg just brought up you know somebody purchases the property and they're like I got an idea we're going to put a pool and an outdoor kitchen and everything and they put an application into the zoning officer does the zoning officer look at the tax record and say you can't do that in that little area so so now we have a miscommunication problem well I I don't know how the the township works but there's a way to accomplish that and I don't know how your filing system is but I know generally what I will do is I'll pull out the block lot file for that town that'll have for that specific lot that has old permits and old information right and just to see that and if this becomes you know a document on the top of it the zoning officer I'm assuming would review that kind of information right because you would do an Oprah request all the time with real estate and all the permits come up and whether they're closed or open so it would be where are the permits recorded in the Construction office there would have to be a new chit added to this particular type of no but but the the the the permits if I do an Oprah request the the Construction office pulls all the all the permits lets me know whether they're open or whether they're they're closed on construction right so it still has a list of all Clos permits as well right the question is if there is if there is one listing that you can that will show everything like when they have to go look for an Oprah they they'll go in and pull the file and maybe it's all in there so then if there's a zoning permit it's not on their side it's on another side so there's not like one location that I think that I that I know of unless someone can correct me that shows everything that's been permitted opened and closed into totality construction will have theirs but you have to you assume that if construction has it there was something previously on the zoning side that was done so there's separate files for construction versus zoning right so it goes to zoning first because everything most things not everything has to have a zoning per approval prior to going to construction but once it's done where does that permit reside the zoning permit will reside in zoning and the construction perit resides in but you I'm I'm I'm not questioning I'm asking but I'm if someone wants to come in and build a patio okay they have to seek a permit okay they apply for a permit to build the patio then both offices do a back do a historical check no what right now it just it come when they submit their zoning they submit zoning application first with any any plans survey anything that they're doing currently part of the process is not there is no historical check as part of the process right now obviously something we can put in and probably should put in I think you I mean I'm I'm surprised that there is not a historical check so let me ask you this if right now when somebody comes before a land use board or does has a closed out permit regardless of whether they had to go to a Lage board or not that closed out permit stays with their file yes okay perhaps you know every time I see an application when you send it to the VEC it says do you know of any history of any easements or da and 99.9% no and if it's a new owner I have no idea if they went to the board of adjustments ever any history of another variant sought I have no idea there are new owners and they kind of don't really know what happened in the past of that house so maybe we when somebody gets it that has to stay with dup in duplicated with your department and uh the construction Department right so obviously we're aware of the fact that we've had multiple zoning officers in a period of time multiple last week right yeah multiple last week and and I'm currently doing both as of rck the last two weeks so any process that uh was there went from um Mike De Carlo to Boswell to paa to me so there's really not even a lot of historic did I miss one oh yes I did Mr EPS I did um so but that that is something difficult would it be for you to do that I don't know yet I mean just so fun no but certainly it's something that right we can we can look at the the historical part of it we can add that to it sure moving forward at least when this law gets passed when they install some kind of green infrastructure to go into their zoning file right so anytime they come back to do another Improvement it's there and and I will tell you that even if you had an easement recorded right that's unless you have the same check it doesn't matter right correct it would be Miss only is not going to go to the county courthouse exactly and pull the Deep right right so that that that's why just another expense and as I was saying before the homeowner who recorded it isn't going to say oh there's an easement on it so it has to it has to be but going back to the substance of this how do you so is this this would be a substantive change wouldn't it what is is any of this policed by the requirement for annual maintenance reports there's there's not the same requirement for minor development is there right we we're going to be creating some kind of a like something they could download from the Township's website for maintenance of smaller installations for minor developments again going back to the you know 21 by 20 foot patio that that happens do we want to burden a homeowner with filing an annual report on the storm water controlment right okay that's not in there for okay that's that but then yeah we're trying to figure out okay so that doesn't apply for minor no it doesn't so the suggestion I think is the sto that seven should say the storm water management feature shall be protected from future development by acceptable measures okay or by measures imp by measures or legal measures pretty broad I think it gives the to the flexibility to fashion right an administrative remedy to maybe you don't even want to change it because okay there could be some potential it says or it says or and there could be some potential projects where an easement really is needed so do you want to leave it as is and notate that's a good point you can leave four other legal meas okay and and the other legal measure the default one will be again we'll come up with a for that the owner signs it's attached to their plant it's filed with Zone and filed with construction and then it can be found in the that all right stay done with that one so so will there be a recommendation from the planning board that an administrative measure be the primary measure unless there is a definitive reason to justify a request for an easement um do you want to just not are you doing that well I think that's outside of I know we're we're really looking at consistency but I no no we're supposed to also comment you know make comments on on the ordinance okay so I think it's outside I think it's a separate little top a separate little section in what is presented to the council commentary in the consistency deter right exactly so who's going to be sending the memos I will okay can you do it by tomorrow uh no I'm asking because they have to they need a 10day posting I'm having surgery no don't they don't have a 10day post some excuse I I I don't think there needs to be a 10day post uh yes uh Miss Kieran and I spoke earlier and she said that she needs to advertise this 10 days in advance because it's but there there's no substan changes to the to the ordinance these are changes that will be made upon so how's this they're not going to be hearing this till the 11th of March at which time it'll be second reading yeah it only we just get a the absolutely the primary there's only a few yeah I just can't do it tomorrow yeah but but the um and it's minor it's all fine um but the um it's cosmetic I'm having my nose done the um the the second reading is just the ordinance itself is advertised The Way It Was Written which I think is backwards in New Jersey state law we've talked about this before because then there can be dialogue to change the ordinance immediately before it's passed as long as it's not substitute but right so okay at at this point we are leaving that language in AB we're just saying that the primary recommendations recommending that a system be put in place that a process be put in place so that if there is a second application the the the prior development is addressed right the the installation of the storm water measure is not covered over by pavement y um any other questions about the substance of the ordinance go ahead Tim yeah just couple um just a page one the applicability um it gets all residential major and Redevelopment is the municipal Township uh covered in that yes okay so if we build a new police station and that's right yes we have to do the I can't some might argue that municipality exempt from their their own regulations not have that argument with your chair you know I've seen it in practice in this town so um great that's good to know uh second just along the lines with alignment with the master plan which I think we sort of made you know polish smooth so there's not many hooks to go on there's a couple instances I think think page 23 and maybe it was page five where there are some you know you know green infrastructure the old standards uh yeah let's see that's page uh 4 and 23 uh rain Gardens swes and bi like things are listed but that's not a comprehensive list like we issued that in our master plan are we okay with having these listed here we are giving residents a list of suggestions from workers and if you're looking at page 23 that list comes from Ruckers and we actually give them projected sizes for their rain Garden in order to accommodate the storm water re you know run off so these are suggestions they if again what um Mr Hinman said if what they're doing is going to be very big um subdividing a piece of property and building a new house on a vacant lot yeah um they are going to need to get an engineer to install the proper measure and this gentleman or somebody from his firm will have to review those numbers and ensure that they're going to work so in this case where these suggestions are L said there's for the minor developments and they're you're telling me these are helpers these are helpers yeah rather than helpers of lawyers of developers and we know we actually just so that you know there is no suggestions for green infrastructure in the state ordinance they just say green infrastructure because everybody who has to deal with these ordinances knows how to how to do that so even in the state code there are no suggestions we handheld a little in the minor development section so I on purpose on purpose okay okay and you like that yes okay any other questions so Madam chair I think for the Paul you want to go to the next one or we want to do consistency on this I do them both separately because you may have different com on okay um the sustainability element goals in our master plan yeah number three improve resiliency and sustainability a encourage the use of green storm water infrastructure B address issues with flown prone flood prone properties um I mean every section of our master plan discusses storm water it's in circulation for recommended bump outs to install green infrastructure to add Imperia I'm sorry permeable surfaces to our big parking lots it's obviously in the land use section um it's and and just to go backwards it's it's finding that it's not inconsistent nowhere in your master plan does it say don't just pointing out a specific one just to kind of move it along I think I I mean does does anybody think that this ordinance after all the discussion we've had on Master plans and um is is somehow not consistent with what uh as a matter of fact and I just want to quote one of these sections one of the goals was to redo our stormw ordinance which is what we're doing right now oh yeah um yeah good so yeah question I'm sorry what so if we're taking out the old one putting this in What's the diff the diff is this is going into our zoning coat and the reason behind that is because I think a lot of the minor developments kind of slipped by uh the Wayside without actually being overseen and ensured that people were going to follow up and do the right thing this as I said earlier gives provides our Administration with a system of checks and balances because we're just becoming more and more flood prone and we're just getting worse and worse so um I don't have to two two of our residents sitting at this table live pretty damn close to a river so uh actually more than that yeah three at least so nothing in the Old Law is taken out no this is please everything mandated and then sign good um I mean I think it's totally in line with our master plan it's exactly what our master plan seeks to have the township do um and it it's like I said it's a more strict ordinance so that I I will be voting Pro consistency um does anybody have any any comments or any questions that would draw away from that then I would like to make a motion to um send the Verna Town Council uh that we find 20244 consistent with our master plan ordinance 20 202 244 I'll second Mr katsof Mr katsof Seconds there's no o there's no o in my name it's an e um what's that it's catf there's no o in my name okay Jeremy I'm just going to play Jeremy I I've been calling you your name for two years or a year now um sorry I didn't mean to mispronounced tonight um so do we take a vote um for discussion purposes yeah uh should the motion be to find consistent or to find not inconsistent and we I would like consistent it's a consistency finding I well it it's the statute says a that the governing B that the planning board shall make and transmit to the governing body within 35 days everybody knows a report including identification of any provisions in the proposed development regulation which are inconsistent with the master plan so our transmittal is that we have found nothing that is inconsistent with the master plan Paul had suggested before change the verbiage of my motion do you second yes do we take a vote yeah okay roll Mr katf yes Mr Lily yes Mr Hinman yes Mr coody yes Mr deal yes Mr yes councilman Roman yes mayor Tim yes chair Pearson yes he went through the through the trouble of explaining to us I had I really don't care I didn't want to go to go to way I have a question second will not be it will be reverting back into General code okay I I just yes right I just wanted to Stills Still development regulation so it's still we still do the determination okay um do you I mean the only thing that changed in there was the the definition of an impervious surface right just from theal 10,000 foot level is the DP has a certain number of mandated ordinances that the municipality must have under your storm water permit this is really what it is and as the chair said uh it just makes it clear that an an artificial turf field is considered an impervious surface under the D interpretations and now it is codified in your Origins this this the these this is a section that talks more about water quality as it relates to wildlife feeding and littering and elicit discharges and those sorts of things I I actually just have one question for you did the DP update this sort of information with the ms4 permit update this was the same there there's there's two ordinances that um need to be adopted that are separate from this okay um one is a true removal ordinance that you already have have one so that's that's going to be okay and the second is for private salt storage which they already adopted at the council level so the so this one is in line with what the DP would ask yes okay it's exactly the same any discuss this actually exists in our general code right now it was article one of the whole thing I have no comments on it yeah if if that's the only change like I said I look through it much the same I mean unless there's any discussion I'd like to make a motion to find that this is not inconsistent with the master plan Jason I'll second that if if if any if if there are no other questions or comments on it that's just been Mo a motion was made by Mr Heinen and I seconded oh yeah Mr Kat yes Mr Lil yes mrman yes Mr yes Mr yes Mr yes counc Roman yes mayor Timo yes chair pear yes all right Frank I would like to thank the chair and Kevin for the many hours we spent on the phone going over with this usually I'm the storm water geek in the room I felt a little bit um marginalized because because there was somebody who seemed to care about it more than me which is unusual but uh it was I think it was a very collaborative process and we got to a very good place well it was I I look forward to working with you again Mr F before I'm sorry before and we do appreciate the time and the effort that uh the chair puts into all this he is enthusiastic uh and and it's appreciated um sometimes she can be a little bit of pain that but I you you've been around longer than me so you can say that fondness I really do because her her enthusiasm their dedication is is uhar it'll be good evidence Herrero and I had a brief discussion um before the meeting and I just want to bring this up um just I had sent to you the legislation with regard to the new affordable housing obligations yes um the new affordable housing obligations are severe yeah um severe severe and I was I asked Paul how are we going to be able to meet the affordable housing obligations and comply with the storm water management requirements given that the town is virtually developed and it's something that you know that the planning board and the governing body are going to have to um start in my view start reconsidering um height permitted height in town unfortunately um parking underneath if there's going to be you know two stories above a above a garage um because there's no way that there's enough land area that is going to be that that developers are going to be able to meet the storm water management requirements and the affordable housing requirements so it's just something that I'm I'm just throwing out there I I was part of a panel discussion last year for redevelopment attorneys and I was there with an attorney uh the C the guy who wrote The Flood haard area rules and the storm waterer rules and a retired guy from the DP and the two guys from the DP said you know every time these new rules come out when it was the wetlands ruled with a new flood Hazard everybody said the world was ending and they say they said the world didn't end I said no the world did not end it just got a lot smaller and that means taller that's that's that's fundamentally what is what the shift is got going to have to be there's less land available for development so which greater mandated levels of development so which role Trump switch do you simply so then if you're if you're you have to comply with both right okay but let's assume that you have a need for a certain amount of affordable housing and the only way to develop it is you know prohibited by your storm water management ordinance um you have to bend your your zoning regulations at that point in time or do you have to bend your zoning regulations and go up it's already happened to some degree with litigation you know that that the town is basically handu but the these you know these are um the Inseparable object and the immovable whatever that's that saying was for I haven't triying to use it in years object and somebody help me out here irresistible Force irresistible Force thank you Paul um you know something is going to have to change and the town is going to have to build affordable house period And if as Paul said if the world gets smaller and you go up then that's what's going to have to happen so it's just something to you know know that it's coming well the the question I have kind of relates to councilman Roman's question if we Zone particular areas to allow for uh higher than normal regulations in in certain areas then they could be met in areas where it could be acceptable or appropriate for a slightly taller than normal building whereas if we but we can still maintain our height regulations and other areas yeah yes that's the way that's exactly what you'll do absolutely it's not you're not going to allow six-story buildings everywhere that's that's my point I mean that would just be horrific no but it's something that is going to have to be addressed because otherwise I I totally understand what you're saying I get it right Alex I don't know if you've seen the new proposed I have chance to read them yet I'm sorry and Chris I don't know if you've seen have you know so uh it's it's frightening and that's not spot zoning that's zoning for The Zing is being thrown out the window to to accommodate to accommodate a lot more than just and then there's another ordance another law that has come out that that says that um have accessory structures on on any single as a right as a right and that by the way will screw with the entire storm waterer ordinance that's ridiculous because then you're adding basically another house on a single family property and then need off-site parking and more driveway and now you're just going to flood every neighbor and and everyone Downstream so that just came out of committee that law just came out of committee and I sent it to Greg with like you know yeah versions of that have been kicking around for a while and it's it's frightening I will tell you one thing going back to the uh to the overall affordable housing and the idea of you know you might have to have areas in town where the buildings are taller um what I can tell you is this and this is an argument I had way back when people were talking about cell towers if you say every place in town is no good for a toal building it's prohibited everywhere and it's equally good everywhere so you have to pick your spots where you're going to have that absolutely right a thinking c y um does anybody have any new business or any have a quick question in fact um there had been a previous confidential matter that's come across to this board a couple of times um do we know what the status of that is do we expect that to come back yeah I can answer that it's um the um matter was presented in Clos session to the council and we're kind of waiting um you know it's in process nothing has been settled okay um but it's been presented to the council Council has um not fully deliberated it yet so it's but it's still uh on a front burner okay thank you appreciate the yep anything else motion to adour got good night everybody nice to meet all of you