[Music] oh [Music] m [Music] a [Music] he [Music] he [Music] welcome to the vucha county council meeting the meeting will begin in 10 [Music] minutes [Music] he [Music] [Applause] [Music] yeah [Music] [Music] [Music] w [Music] w [Music] what [Music] you [Music] a [Music] [Music] [Music] w [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 5 [Music] [Music] minutes [Music] a [Music] you [Music] he [Music] [Music] morning [Music] okay we'll give everybody a 60c warning to find their seats [Music] please [Music] yeah ready and there he is okay we will call the April 2nd 2024 Valia County council meeting to order at 900 a.m. and uh just to let you know how we start we will begin with an invocation um any faith group in Valia county is welcome to participate in this if your faith group would like to um and we do appreciate it send an email to uh K the letter K green volusia.org this is Carissa green to my left and she will get you all set up in um uh in what needs to be done this morning we have Pastor Brad gortney from Stetson Baptist Church who will be leading Us in in the invocation and and then we'll go right into the Pledge of Allegiance so if you would like to stand please join me fellow citizens County Council thank you for the opportunity my name is Brad I'm with Stetson Baptist Church um in Delan and it's the honor to pray this day even just after Easter so if you will pray with me Father God we thank you so much for the work that's to be done today we pause for a moment to give you thanks the Bible refers to to you as the great healer Lord so many around us are are suffering and need comfort the Bible also calls you the great provider so I pray for those who have needs and to be honest we all have needs help us find a solution to those needs the scripture refers to you as a wonderful counselor and God I pray for insight today as decisions are to be made give us all wisdom and patience to make good decisions finally God I thank you for vuia County I thank you for my city of Dand and I thank you that you are for those places God I thank you that you're for each of us and I pray that we would be drawn closer to you God what will happen today in this room is important and I pray for courage to make difficult decisions and I pray for patience and Grace when hard decisions are to be made Lord Heal our land and draw us into an Ever deepening relationship with you father God we love you your name we pray amen amen pleas United States of America and to the stands na indivisible withy and justice for all thank you sir CH would you call would you call the role Please Mr dimsey here Mr Johansson here Mr Kent here Mr Reinhardt here Mr Robbins Mr Santiago here Mr Brower here thank you and we will start our meeting with public participation you will have uh when I call your name just come up to the uh Podium here the podium uh goes up and down so that the microphone can be right at your mouth we we we want to be able to hear you and we want the public that's listening online and being being recorded be able to hear you so please make sure a microphone is um is right in your face and just tell us where you're from what part of the county so that your representative up here is aware of that and you will have 3 minutes um to uh Mr chair if I'm sorry to interrupt you I just noticed some devices on the front here I don't know what those are I don't know what they are either okay well the meetings are recorded and broadcasted I I don't think that's necessary so I it's up to count Council but I I've never seen that uh used do you recommend they be removed I do okay who can do that thank you this is interesting okay uh Paul Richardson you are very um you're used to doing this so lead the way for everybody Paul Richardson morning Council my name is Paul Richardson of the land you gentlemen have heard for uh heard me for some time talk about how the covid-19 virus may have likely been created in a Wuhan lab in Wuhan Institute of topology well it seems that I've been right quote covid-19 may have been created in a Chinese uh lab a British Professor told the UN March 28th with another expert claiming they that evidence of the likelihood has reached the level of a Smoking Gun Richard H IRB a mular biologist at rers University was quoted saying a new Wall Street Journal article that the virus that killed Millions around the world may have actually been manmade in China is W hand Institute of orology he CED evidence found in a 2018 document from the lab that talk about making such of ver the papers from the lab cited by urry contain drafts and notes regarding Grant proposal called project defuse which sought to test engineering back Corona viruses in a way that would make them easily transmittable to humans end quote I have sent this article to all of your email addresses so if you may want to read it further now I'm not saying that the co 19 virus was released intensely far from it however I am renewing my strong call to atla such gain of folus in research and whole China accountable for creating virus I further call on the Florida legislator to Outlaw anything used in Florida that was developed using Game function research as well this is a result of playing God With aoral Science and is completely unacceptable scientists and medical professionals who still say that this wasn't from the wuan lab have no shred of credibility left and those who defend gain of function research should absolutely be a same of themselves if they continue to Abate and lie they should be stripped of their credentials now on a um I finish that I on a more personal note uh due to scheduling conflicts for both the library Advisory board and the cultural cult Council board I'm going to have to Tender my regation from the Library Council uh advisory at this time uh I do apologize I really uh was really hoping I could avoid this but uh both councils both boards are unable to change their schedules at this time um and I this isn't because I think the library that the cultural board is more important than the library I actually far from it I hope it still continues you hope uh and hopefully maybe in L later time I with uh sking perm minutes I could uh reapply for that position if possible again I do apologize for all you council members I appreciate your opportunity but I I do feel that the cultural Council has a grant and that's and it's not that it's more important it's just that I I have to I want to stick with that for a while anyway um thank you I appreciate it and uh God bless uh Lu County America and Israel thank you for your service Jacqueline Clark good morning my name is Jackie Clark I live in Port Orange in unincorporated fuchia County two houses down from the proposed access road to the new Motocross Motocross park off of tamoka Farms Road on February 20th Direction was given to get feedback from the community since I haven't been contacted yet I thought I was going to be here today anyways I'd just give you a couple thoughts uh I actually love the idea I think think it's a perfect fit for that area it's very rural um a lot of kids on you know three-wheelers but there's also there are two three 5 acre lots full of horses people who have lived there for 50 years I'm not going to speak for my neighbors but um I think it's going to be a very hard sell they're also really mad right now at vucha County because the whole storm water stuff so um so a few of the things I thought I'd bring up is we are completely saturated our soil is totally saturated if you walk out into my pasture it feels like you're walking on a marshmallow um and probably that area is too uh not only is there a house 1500 ft away from the track but my neighbor's driveway is runs parallel to that excess Road and it's just feet away from the road um it's just I have a hard time believing anybody went out there to look at it because you look at it and you just would know that it doesn't work work um I hope you will save the staff's time and look for a better location thank you Dana mol good morning Mr chair and council members um I think that we're all friends here so I would like to invite you on September 27th we'll be doing the second annual wig out for cancer charity event and if you were not able to attend last year it was wildly successful uh this charity is dedicated to local valua Centric cancer Charities and these are small Grassroots cancer Charities uh that go out and provide meals wigs um food rides medication appointments I can go on and on but we choose local uh Charities the smaller ones and anyone is encouraged to apply to be the recipient last year was popular we are also launching on that evening the wildly popular guns and hoses calendar so the call is going out today officially for all Valia County Law Enforcement and firefighters to go to vaguns and hos. org and put an application in to be on the calendar for 2025 the sales from that calendar goes partially to the law enforcement agency we give portion of it to their charity and the firefighters as well it was well received by all of the Departments right now we are going out we're doing our packaging now in may we'll go out to every one of your cities so you'll be getting a visit from myself or someone from our committee I don't know maybe miss the wildly popular Miss Sher Simmons there she's part of our committee this year um so I encourage you if you can to go ahead and please save that date um it this year wig out for cancer will be held at the Deltona Center it'll be from 7: to 11:00 p.m. this year's theme is A midsummer's night um we will have food we will have live auctions um we we had great success last year and we want all of alucia to be involved we have now committee members on uh every in all of the um sides of the county here we want it to be valua Centric so I'm asking you to save the date for that uh and thank you very much I appreciate your time I um if I don't see you there you can send a check in Lou so we'll be in touch about that also this is just kind of saved the DAT thank you all who are sitting up there that supported us last year Mr Santiago I know you were there I know that we also had donations from other people so I'm going to be up here every month gently reminding you to participate this year we want to see our community involved um this money went back to Childhood Cancer Foundation it also went back to U Mission blue local cancer Charities so stay local spend your money local and let's support local cancer Charities thank you thank you John Nicholson that was quick uh John Nicholson Daytona Beach side uh couple of things one uh I wanted to speak on the library um after covid well prior to co it was inhabited by a lot of homeless people and there was an incident and people stopped going to the library on in Beachside it is now totally safe and they're adding things every day um the Launchpad I find fantastic if you're uh uh digitally in inclined if you can do computers and uh that new little system they have where you put a goggle on and you see all around the world um so I I just want to put a a plugin for uh the library on the beach side uh secondly uh a better solution to the um Motocross location I mentioned it to uh Mr uh the idea is that that location is relatively close a block is really close if you live anywhere uh you could hear the noise you have the traffic because it's a very narrow road going in front of your house um I think a better location would be the north side of the uh um I want to use the word dump landfill uh they don't like to use the word dump um the north side of landfill is a um Wetlands all right it's never going to be uh used to me it has an access road it has um nobody within I guess a quarter of a mile so maybe five 10 city blocks um in either direction so I think if you're going to do it it's ideal location it's absolutely necessary it adds not only to Daytona Beach which I happen to like but Port Orange and Holly Hill and all the surrounding areas that will benefit from it so we need to get the correct location where it can grow and I hope we have it as the largest facility of its kind in the United States eventually so that's the kind of thing we need and that's the kind of thing we have to have and we just have to put in the correct location and uh lastly um driving over here there was a comment made on retirement and we've been hitting this forever like it seems I know Ronald Reagan wanted to do something about it and it's been a couple of years since he was president and they wanted to to up the age and well we're not fixing that and we can do that in our city as well in our County as well we don't have to have and I know I got holy hack when I did it in Daytona Beach police retire at 20 okay so they become policemen at 1820 they retire at 40 they get a second job they retire they get a third job so they have four incomes we have to look at that you are retired of I'm going to kill this name is it John or um tram I believe it's Joseph okay what's the last name Tres tram thank you oh boy I'm here once again about code enforcement code enforcement has been after me forever three years ago when this started I put in 300 same exact violations that I had on my house and they did absolutely zero to any of those violations when I talk to the code enforcement main guy he says oh did you want me to look into those so it was an utal that I can't get nobody now if you see the pictures up here I turn that one in 30 days ago as of today there's nothing done for it it says open case that's what they did on all the other cases and they're not doing anything through the freedom Freedom of Information Act I got that all the printed paperwork and what he's done which is absolutely nothing if you're going to make me abide by these ridiculous laws then you have to make everybody in this County abide by the laws not just who you feel like wanting to or who your neighbor is oh we're not going to touch him oh the neighbor down here we're not going to touch them that's wrong A law is a law and this is America and if you don't think that's in violation I don't know what you what you people want I really don't you don't even play fair I tried to talk to my district councilman and he won't even answer me what's wrong with this country I don't know what you expect me to do I have to have a architectural drawing on a $300 building that I want to sit out with a screen around it that's absolutely ridiculous you can't build a $300 structure to sit on on your own property without an architectural stamp well I went over into Orange City and found 37 same siiz buildings as mine and you will be getting all of theirs and once we open this can of worms I'm not going away I just want to let you know that you don't have the right to do this and there are the pictures to prove it and he's done nothing on that property for 30 days thank you okay uh that brings us to item one but before I start I believe we uh have a uh request for a motion thank you Mr chairman yes uh Council I wanted to ask that if we could schedule a hard stop at 12:50 for lunch today get a 1:00 that that can't be change so if we can do lunch at 12:50 I'd appreciate it get support for that okay now everybody knows thank you do you need a second for that was that a motion then a motion I I'll be happy to second that any uh comment all in favor say I I any opposed so uh a hard stop at 1250 so if you're talking at 1250 we'll we'll give you a little Grace um and the second was by Troy Kent okay now that takes us to item one the consent agenda does any council member have an item they'd like to pull for a vote or for discussion Mr chairman I make a motion to approve the consent agenda as presented second Johansson okay Vice chair Kent makes a motion to approve as presented and the second is by Jake Johanson uh since there's no discussion I'll call for uh the vote to approve the entire consent agenda all in favor say I I I any opposed consent agenda is passed uh unanimously 7 to Zer those of you that this is not your first time here Realize by now that I'm trying out my new voice this morning so I I hope you uh enjoy it CH and chairman just kudos to Mr rectenwald I think sixth meeting in a row waiting for you to say that sixth meeting well it wasn't like this it was problematic there were things on the consent that shouldn't have been on the consent and George has listened to what we said and we're running more efficiently thank [Music] you okay um item two which may be why most of you are here this morning is uh the 2024 Echo Grant award recommendations um we will hear from Dr burbol first and then uh if uh if there's no um no issues with the rest of the council I would like to take each of the items one by one because they're all different and they all should U get their own consideration and and votee uh Brad Burwell good morning council member so I've been included this PowerPoint as part of the update on Friday but before we get started I just wanted to share with each of you that uh my team heard you loud and clear last year when you gave us feedback on the process and so one we've done a we've added a more rigorous evaluation of the construction timeline and cost estimates um by engine by engaging our construction and engineering team on projects where we um find those items to be questionable and it's added as a new heading in our technical review uh with regard to holding applicants responsible to the timeline they've committed to uh we have renewed our focus on emphasizing this during the mandatory Workshop we've shared the video of your discussion about extensions with each of these folks so they know kind of the expectation of of the staff and Council so I wanted to share that with you as we get started today we have nine Grant proposals before you for consideration um the recommended funding for seven of them is 2.6 million what is which is the request there was one project that was not recommended for funding and I will go over that if you'd like and then the there's one the exceptional Grant that's before you today requires Council Direction so the total funding request um is 5.3 million of the nine applications we have three nine or we have three nonprofits and $10 million in match that would that would be leveraged with council's investment as you can see here these are the nine applicants we have seven outdoor one historic and one environmental project um and leave it to the the pleasure of the council would you like me to go through each project quickly or um move directly to questions we'll see if see if we have any questions at this point but for for me we'll see what the rest of the council wants I'm I'd say since we're going to take each one one by one why don't we as we get to each one you give us your um any feedback and insight we also have members of the public that would like to speak to various um uh projects okay so the the first one on the list is the historic uh civil School restoration this is a historic project they're requesting $214,000 in Echo dollars and they're bringing to to the table 218,000 in cash match and basically restoration and preservation of the historic School some comments from advisory committees on this project for a small organization the grant is well done and very clear to understand the historic School needs to remain open and be supported they know what they're doing those were comment selected comments I I've selected three comments from advisory committee note advisory committee member notes that I'll share with you on each of these projects next is the question yes sorry I should have put my name up chairman sorry about that that's okay I I think you're Brad why don't when you do each one let's just stop and we'll yes sir ask questions debate it and then vote on it thank you chairman Dr burval um was this application complete yes did they follow the rules yes they have a plan to be successful yes thank you any other questions is there a motion for uh the civil School motion to approve second I'm I'm sorry I didn't see the motion was that Matt jeez you're throwing your voice okay and the second one's Troy Vice chair Kent any other any debate on it all in favor say I I any opposed ceville is passed unanimously 7 to zero great the next project that before you've recommended for funding is Orman Beach Sports Complex softball quad installation of LED lighting so um this project will install LED lighting in the softball clad about 130 lights so they're asking for 456,000 which will be matched with an additional 456,000 in cash match the comments from the advisory committee members uh on this application well organized and detailed um and good feasibility study as well as um a well-run project any questions uh Troy Kent thank you chairman um was the application complete yes sir were they missing anything no sir do they have a plan to be successful yes sir Miss moio great job Orma Beach would you like to make a motion Vice chair K yes I'd be happy to make a motion to approve uh the or Beach Sports complex softball qual installation of LED lighting second Johansson and the second is by Jake Johansson and uh you okay all right any other uh questions debate all in favor of the city of Orman Beach uh Sports Complex say I I any opposed that one is also passed unanimously 7 to Zer the third project before you is the Orman Beach Project Nova Community Parkfield two through five improvements um there is precedent for improving Fields has been funded in the past by Eko because it is an improvement and that language is in the ballot language so they're asking again um for sorry I didn't Advance the slide $216,000 with a total match um and essentially this will convert two Fields um to baseball fields and improves Fields three four and five some U comments from the advisory committee are the new smart irrigation technology um upgrade will save water which we always like when we're looking at the environmental benefits of echo projects and this is a shovel ready project that was the other comment from the committee thank you uh Vice chair Troy Ken thank you chairman was the application complete yes sir missing any information sir they have a plan for Success yes sir and did I read in this also that Orman Beach is now putting a dedicated millage so they have money readily available every time they need to apply for an Echo Grant they have money ready to go yes sir is that correct great job Orman Beach and make sure you tell them I said that uh Mr chairman I make a motion to approve NOVA community park fields 2 through five improvements second Johanson motion to approve by jooy Kent second by Jake Joe Hansen uh I will just add that I I really like the new uh irrigation technology I think that's Forward Thinking and it's with our our water issues um that's uh that sets a good standard uh any other questions on the city of Orman Beach and NOVA community park all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries 7 to Zer so the fourth uh item before you is the application from the city of Port Orange requesting $150,000 um and providing $150,000 in cash match uh this project will improve an existing playground by installing Ada accessible equipment I will say you know in terms of uh playgrounds if you've not been to the airport road uh playground that we funded previously with them Port Orange knows how to do playgrounds so we're excited to support this project uh some comments is uh from from the advisory committee is it fills a definite need in the community and um they'll use eco-friendly Turf and mat materials and a good maintenance plan with details thank you uh Vice chair Kent thank you chairman uh Dr Burpa is the application complete yes sir thank you were we missing any information at full disclosure there's an asterisk here um they the the city did uh ask for to fund a pavilion as part of this project but it was missing the construction documents or the street ready RFP for a design build so the city at there their um you know at at their discretion pulled that portion of the project out to make it successful going forward that was very wise of Port Orange because they had some missing information and they decided you know what we need to make sure we have this and I appreciate that Port Orange did that do they have a plan to be successful moving forward yes sir and I just want to publicly thank Port Orange for helping to make this park Ada accessible it reminds me of the Limitless playground in Orman Beach that I I believe received Echo funds years ago um out at our Airport and it's fantastic to see kids of all ages despite any disabilities they have being able being able to participate having fun with their [Music] peers did you make a motion I I didn't just because I saw Mr Johansson and and that's his stomping grounds I stop all over the place now um do you know if uh the city of Port Orange is going to fund The Pavilion on their own I do not yes their Grant consultant is shaking her head yes so you see that all right so the Pavilion is still going to be built great thanks that's all I have is there a motion to approve or motion approve [Music] Johansson second Kent motion to approve is by Jake Johansson the second is by Vice chair Kent um uh Danny Robbins chairman thank you uh just a quick question uh are we having any public excuse me public participation on each item before we before we yes we have participation in um for all of DeBerry for uh new samna we did have participation just making sure um um we've already taken that up and and approved but if you would like to uh to speak you can take your time um Rob Salazar do you wish to still wish to speak he's with new Suna oh that's new samna new samna yeah we have vot all of these are for new samna um yeah I put the two that we would have public comment for at the end I figured okay I'll call you when we get there all right the next did we did we vote on Port Orange uh no we did not vote on Port Orange all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries 7 to zero all right the next on the list is uh an application from the city of Edgewater they're asking for the um the maximum request for a standard Grant which is $600,000 they're bringing total match of 704 to the table to leverage our County funds um some of the this will construct the first ever pickle ball courts and Edgewater um and it will include four standard courts with amenities including a parking lot storm water management landscaping and a adaa sidewalk um for people to walk on around the facility so some of the uh comments from your advisory committee is this is a shovel ready project um great application first pickle ball courts and Edgewater and uh very informative about the sport to pickle ball the application was thank you councilman Robbins motion to approve Hawks Park pickleball courts and amenities councilman Danny Robbins makes a motion to approve the second one was by the second was by councilman um Matt Reinhardt uh Troy Kent thank you chairman uh Dr bbal was the application complete yes sir were were they missing anything sir do they have a plan for Success sir I love it where's Edgewater are they in the house edwat here where I heard yeah are you trying to compete with Holly Hill I absolutely love it I I I love that you all are bringing pickle ball courts down to the southern part of uchia County I have yet to do it but you heard miss m use my wildly comments earlier pickle ball is becoming wildly popular and I'm sure one day I'll I'll jump on congratulations and I will say they did a great analysis of um go going to the pickle ball Club in New samna where over half near nearly half or over half of those members are from Edgewater so they demonstrated the need well thank you next all right the um final project we vote didn't vote on pickle ball no we did not uh motion was by uh Danny Robbins second by Matt Reinhardt all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries 7 to zero to approve next is the Deltona YMCA athletic fields and playground by application by valua Flagler YMCA um thank you thank you um the request is $428,000 uh which will be leveraged with $428,000 a port portion of which is land match um but 320,000 in cash is what they're bringing to the table to leverage our funds um it will construct new Ada accessible playground and approve the adjoining soccer fields some comments uh selected from your advisory committee is this this would be the first artificial turf soccer field in the area um good project and they were attentive to detail thank you uh Vice chair T Kent thank you chairman was the application complete yes sir were they missing anything no sir do they have a plan for Success yes sir and now I've got another question how's the public going to access this free of charge so the the YMCA has a no one has turned away policy when it comes to this project so they've shared that um you know they're their members will get first um dibs for lack of a better term um but we require let me back up and say that about 35 of our projects are fee based so they're generating fees to through memberships um or other means to sustain the project in the long term so there is a precedent for this and the Y has received uh money from us in the past but um there is a process and an understanding that the public will should be able to access this without paying a membership fee I I appreciate that and and thank you for sharing that and I have supported um in a in a big way the project in Orman Beach with the YMCA I'm a fan I'm an advocate but I need to be sold that we're given public dollars for a project here and that any of the public can access this property whenever they want I'm a little hesitant when I heard that their members that I think pay $79 a month if my memory is correct that they're going to get first dibs because I'm concerned about the taxpayer that's not a member there but yet their tax dollars are being spent there so I either need a a better response from staff or from the YMCA themselves to make sure that the public will be able to to access the properties where Echo dollars are going to be spent so I I think the Y would be better suited to answer that question um with the caveat I will share you know that we had originally uh we would the plan was to originally bring these to the last meeting um by changing it to this meeting the YMCA CEO is in Europe um transition period between CEOs at that time and um rather than continue to ask for extensions of this of this Council um they rescinded those two grants we did not pay out any money for those grants did you look at their annual reports yes sir um I looking at the annual reports for Echo grants it doesn't show a lot of public use which goes back to Vice chair's Kent question I I think echko was set up for the general public not just for the the paying public although that has happened um and I haven't seen any any kind of supplemental um information that the public um wants this and so I'm I guess I need to be sold too I would defer to the why for question thank you sir introduce yourself good morning I'm Dave Shaw I'm the CFO um You probably all know how a soccer complex Works um I have grandchildren who are on soccer teams and we go to the games and we don't pay any fee to go to the game and and I have other grandchildren that will play on the playground under the shade structure while our grandchildren who are on the teams will play we have teams that are sponsored by the Y and those uh participants pay a fee to be to be in this youth sports program of the YMCA and they play a team from somewhere else that is not uh sponsored by the Y they're not paying a fee to the Y or anything like that so it's a it's it's a very open thing it's not open to the general public to just go out there anytime you want to and kick the ball around with your son uh for two reasons one is it has to be maintained and people bring teams in and start to use the field and and the one that's not artificial turf the one that's natural Turf will wear down pretty quickly so the idea is that the artificial turf field will be used extensively for practices and then the competitive uh games will take place on the the natural grass Turf so that has to be maintained has to be insured if somebody gets hurt the YMCA is has insurance and responds if somebody breaks a leg or sprains an ankle or whatever and those are those are costs involved so we can't just leave it open for people to just come out there whenever they want but it's it's the whole community's Soccer Complex okay Mr sha I think you're going to have more questions what is your position with I'm the CFO okay that's actually very encouraging I full disclosure I know you I I know you well and I know how uh well equipped you are financially to so that's that's encouraging to me uh David Santiago thank I don't have questions for him Mr chair I got questions for Brad does any anybody have questions for Mr Shaw before do you mind if we get okay I can't I do Mr Shaw um thank you for coming forward I heard you say this is everybody's soccer field but then I also heard you say in the same breath you can't just come up and walk onto the field that's not helping me with my hesitation because it doesn't feel like it's everybody's soccer field for example in Orman Beach the city of Orman Beach gave money to the YMCA and they have Believe It or Not Council a dog park and that dog park is set up and the way it's located is so that anybody unless I'm wrong can just I'm not good Orman shaking their head I'm right can walk up and use that dog park because Orman Beach residents you know they they put in on this yes they participated they paid with their tax dollars and again Council one of you going to have to help me with it because I'm just not seeing how this is everybody's field if not everybody can access it whenever they want to um of course a dog park is a lot different than a soccer complex in terms of the way it has to be cared for and maintained and um uh we have had in the last couple of months we've had to call the sheriff to come out and and arrest some young people who were doing drugs out on the field they just park at the end of the parking lot and go out there and have a party and of course we can't allow that kind of thing there's been vandalism out there um so there's a chain up you can't just drive your car out onto the soccer field you know we have those kinds of restrictions nobody should be pardon me nobody should be driving on a soccer field no one should be doing drugs on a soccer field but how would Troy Kent I'm in Deltona uh I'm visiting the area and and I'm like you know what I'm G to go kick the soccer ball around how do I get on your field tell me how that's going to work um you come in come in to the why and we give you a guess pass and you go out there and you do that yeah and I can get how many guest passes throughout the year six so after six visits I'm done I can't go use that field then you become some sort of a member if you want to continue if you if you're that Avid of a soccer player you but but I'm but I'm adamant about it because Ekko paid for a portion of that soccer field yes so I may not want to be a member of the Y but I want to participate on the field that my echo dollars paid for thank you you've been very helpful for me okay does anyone have any uh questions for David Shaw I I'm gonna ask David Shaw a question and then I want to go to Brad for my me Mr chair okay can you talk a little bit about your scholarship program yes thank you um we don't reject anybody to wants to come to the Y because they can't afford to pay so if you want to put your kid in new sports or you want to put your kid in child care or you want to exercise and you you can't afford to there's a financial aid process we have an annual scholarship campaign it's a fundraising campaign ours just finished uh at the end of March for the year and the money we raised during the first three months of the year we use to fund those scholarships the rest of the year uh last year we had $600,000 worth of scholarship awarded to um all different kinds of people with various needs second children third children in a program those kinds of things and and membership that uh people can't afford to continue their membership because they have an adverse situation at home or in in their work or whatever so it's safe to say nobody's really denied nobody's denied by by the lack of income thank you my questions for Brad Mr chair please Brad thank you Mr sha yes sir hey Brad can you give me a little bit of uh examples of other Echo type of projects that we funded that have fees for Access Control and how do they operate correct so um pickle ball at pona is is a prime example of an exceptional project that requires uh a fee um to to use um one of the things and we allow fees and the echo rules one of the things that we ask um as we build Pavilions too because some of our partners charge rental fees for Pavilions as part of parks is that they have a uniform fee structure for people across valua County so we cannot say DeBerry residents will pay $10 to rent this Pavilion that was built with Echo and all other residents outside of the city will pay $20 so pona is one the Athens theater is another example of one um I have a I've done this analysis when I first got here to try to get an understanding um and there's about 30 and I would think the ones that um we've added a few since then but over 30 projects and I think it's we talk about sustainability of projects and I think that these folks have done the analysis and understand that they can't live on government alone so they've got to charge charge a fee so it's it's there's there's precedent to do it this way is that what you're saying yes okay and I'll ask I'll ask my friend Troy's quen's question questions you glad you asked them you asked it because you're doing good if you want to sorry no I don't have any I just got comments I think what makes this a little different is that it's a membership versus a fee um but one of the things we do as staff is we negotiate with the why like how you going advertise this you know um and this one is no one turned away um for some in Orman you know we have them place it on all of their Flyers that you know it will be um sometimes they have open days during the month that allows free public access there's hours that um they may provide free public access so each project has um a negotiated pathway for Public Access that's free Mr chair if I may I know I pressed my button again but I'll just wrap up with this um this this particular project is like 3 minutes from my house and it's it is used widely cuz when they're having activities there I can see the Wolfpack run there is packed and it and it comes around so I could walk there in probably five minutes so um I think there's precedent as to the way it operates versus paying a fee every single time you can choose to pay a onetime fee and become a member or or uh if you can't afford to then you get access to it uh otherwise I don't know if other programs have similar Grant type of programs they may um but I think this one is worthy and I think it's utilized and I think uh you know certainly we I'm open to the conversation um in the future to figure out how we handle things that are may be fee accessible um but I think right now staff has done the work that that checks the boxes so thank you m chair thank you if I may add as well just for council's situational awareness that um the individual I'll holler our compliance specialist that visits the these projects you know twice a year while they're in construction and once every 3 years after construction make sure that the Y is advertising and doing the things that they've said in the application when we show up for those visits so um we've in the past said you we've SE this flyer come across our desk and it doesn't say that the public can access it for free on these days so please add it so just see your aware thank you uh councilman Johansson yeah I just wanted to I heard what you said Brad but um don't also cities have certain Echo uh fields that were paid for by Echo that they Reserve or or or otherwise lock up when not in use um uh yes sir and only use them for sanction events pop Corner football soccer games football games things of that nature Daytona Stadium's prime example yeah well that's true all right uh that's all I had and thank you for answering it twice councilman Rob thank you chair um Dr bur thank you three questions does it fit the rules yes are they missing anything no sir is it set up for Success yes sir I have nothing else Danny already took my questions I'm sorry councilman Reinhardt no I'm I was gon no Jeff I'm gonna go real quick um Dr bball uh I am next right yes you are okay I'm sorry yeah Dr bball uh hund we the county retained the Hunden group to do a uh a study for the needs of uh soccer fields Playing Fields uh on the west side of the county have they come back with a report on what the needs are for these types of facilities on the west side of the county the preliminary draft report yes and what did they say do we need improved fields we need multi-purpose Fields I think was the I I've read it a few weeks ago so don't quote me on it but um you know this will be added to the inventory really the dir of fields that we see is on the west side of the county right and so would this help fill in that that void certainly certainly okay that's all than because I think the goal here is to have league play so you will have a league that's supported with uh Fields here okay thank you Matt Reinhard thank you chair a lot of my colleagues have already asked the question so I'm not going to reiterate it but I will reiterate one thing one of my colleagues a while back talked about how being consistent and how so important it is and I think consistency is going to be the key thing here um following the rules being consistent and I think it meets that so I just wanted to point that out being consistent you know you talk about uh you pointed out the the few structures that we have I said structures lack of a better word few places that we already have like the Athens theater like those things that charge a fee that have Echo dollars that were Port into it so we're being consistent and that's what I want to make sure that we stress so that being said unless chair I'll make a motion but motion to approve but I'll I know that you want to thank you well you can still make your motion okay uh Matt Reinhardt makes a motion to approve second was by Danny Robbins and uh Jake do you have a question for Brad or for I I have following question for Brad some some part my interest Brad or maybe why I'm say why MCA has league soccer teams right now do they have these soccer teams right now in existence not in do they have soccer teams in existence anywhere Lua Flore do they play on YMCA only Fields so by having this field can you come up to the microphone and so the answer was was no so by by YMCA teams inviting other teams YMCA and non YMCA to this field there's indications that they'll free up a a non YMCA field for for additional play as well right because right right now they would play so um so it does increase the inventory roundabout way on on the west side is what I'm seeing or what I'm saying all right thank you one more question for for you are you a CPA no um an accountant okay um it's been years since I've seen you yes um but I know that you I remember that financially you were um you're very gifted and and you're so that that does give me some uh encouragement however the issues that we've had with the YMCA before was was not so much with the way money was handled but just um following the guidelines will you be overseeing that I'll be in charge of that okay all right thank you uh Troy Kent thank you chairman um thank you Council some of your comments actually did help me Santiago it's your District Especially Yours and I'm also pleased that Dr bbau is um you know got his uh his pencil ready and and paying close attention to all of these grants and then once they're awarded so my my comfort level is better okay uh Chris I'm going to ask you to call the roll on this one please Brad were you done sir okay chissa Mr Dempsey that was a yes Mr Johansson yes Mr Kent yes Mr Rin yes Mr Robbins yes Mr Santiago yes Mr Brower yes so this passes s to uh zero um although it was a strain but um what what we what you are learning everybody is that this council is going to be uh a stickler for sticking with the guidelines we want to spend the Public's money uh the way they expect us to and not have this become a you know a political football so go ahead yes sir um and we hear you loud and clear so um the the the last project that's recommended for funding um from your advisory council is the lake beersford Shoreline restoration and Public Access enhan enhancements at the ston Aquatic Center so the request is for 600,000 and the total match that they're bringing to the table in cash is 600,000 so a $1.2 million project um showcas green infrastructure through the add of a living Shoreline construction of a dock for public use and the expansion of ADA accessibility on the site in terms of a trail and and kind of Boardwalk as you can see there that will give folks access um to the water some comments from advisory committee members are number one it benefits the land and the county it's well written and informative application uh great project that shovel ready thank you councilman Robbins thanks chair uh I've personally been out to uh this facility I love it I just don't like it I love it um the the student interaction the community interaction and uh really has checks all the boxes uh with a lot of what uh this council is called for and and and is looking for uh with that being said uh motion to approve second Johanson motion to approve uh the grant by Danny Robins second by uh Jake Hansen uh Troy Kent Dr bural was the application complete yes sir okay nothing was missing no sir they have a plan for Success yes sir have we given any other private universities Echo money yes sir which ones um bethon cookman uh Daytona State Stetson there's sorry there's there's precedent thank you yes yes sirk is there any one hear from ston that's somebody yes and and also chairman if you don't mind my name was still up there um if ston or you want to come up and just say how the Public's going to be able to access and utilize these improvements that will help me I I'll let ston that's please yeah that's good so Stetson if you want to come up and I I'll give you uh my hesitation as well I I love this project I love the uh the aquatic Center I've been out there numerous times my my concern is in giving public taxpayer money to a private university with um a very large endowment um 355 plus million dollar so my question to you would be could could the university do this on their own without going to taxpayers to pay for it Cindy Johnston associate director of Grants sponsored research at Stetson and I'm here with a team who's helped build this proposal over the ne over the last several years our chairman of the board Mr Steven Alexander our chief of staff Reen or Royo and our top shelf grant writer Kelly McGee of the Riverside Conservancy Inc so directly to your question the answer is no we want to do this with Echo money that's a critical piece of the Public Access that STS and Prides itself on we have an existing Grant there since 2016 that provides free public access not just to an open Park but also to the Waters of Lake Beford this will enhance that first grant I'm glad to take any other questions Troy Kent uh did he answer your question Jake Johansson yes sir um so so this peninsula that that I I got to tour it'll be open to the public and and you're showing us a picture right here of of the of the area right what's that junk in the water next to the the trail there that was that was looks like little game cubes or something I know the answer could you answer though please absolutely so part of this project is in honor of Matt Oiler who's a nephew of President Chris Roki who couldn't join us today and so this project began with the impetus of our chief of staff Reno Royo and our top shelf s environmental scientist Dr Jason Evans speaking with Chris Dr Roki about the loss of his nephew and how important this project is because Matt was a fisherman a conservationist who loved the water and so these are attractors that help build the resiliency that's been lost on the peninsula the peninsula was created by the dredging of a lagoon at this site in the 1950s and 60s and over time water wind tropical storms and hurricanes have eroded the peninsula and so those devices that are part of best practices for living shorelines help create visual interest as well as bringing fishes to the region and we're expecting that this will become a site that supplements the exciting manag experiences at nearby Blue Spring I'm sorry for the long answer I think I na that thanks so absolutely and and one of the things I think is important about uh about Echo is is this is STS in University it is a private university uh but the Water by and large is public and and some of the value added here is to the lake and to the area um and as well as the public that's going to be walking on the ad Ada approved path to see all these great things um so um I'm I'm pretty supportive of this project just not because uh well because it it very much supports the environment and and I really don't care that it's STS and in that we have access to it so I I appreciate your time thank you councilman Robbins thank you chairman thank you uh once again um I may make a mixture of questions and statements I'm just going to go based on my observations when I was there uh on why this qualifies anybody that's been there if you look out in the center and along that Shoreline they have a lot of native plants and they're promoting native plants they're teaching about native plants what does that equate to in our language Li okay they're doing everything that qualifies to promote this Li push uh that members of this Council have been on um they do that same thing with the college and follow the same uh line when it comes to education and falling in line with not regulation that this Council has uh um uh made a standing to to deny uh future um regulation so education is a big thing does this improve the water quality yes or no yes that's what I thought and uh Shoreline resistance uh resil protects the shoreline armors it uh in that area to further protect uh the investment that the college has made that the investment the public has made and that the investment Echo uh in the tax dollars are making correct resiliency yes it's a significant investment by the county and by ston University and we're on the hook for 20 years okay I'm good with that uh this fits everything that this Council has said both past present and what we're looking to do in the future it's in line uh with uh uh the president that we've set with the program uh as well thank thank you um I'm going to go back to the question that I answered that I asked um I'm struggling with your answer I'm not sure I understand that I said could you you have a $356 million endowment could you do this without taxpayer money and you said no and you related that to the ability to have Public Access is that the only way the public would have access if if you do this through an echo Grant the public has access to the site for 40 years from our 2016 Grant this enhances that access by creating a new dock or Boardwalk that's in the neighborhood of let me get this right 266 fet of Docker boardwalk and 195 ft of that is in the water and that provides a brand new opportunity that otherwise ston would not build not at this time unless you had taxpayer money yes sir and we've done this before and we're we are solid in our reporting we've got good participation in about 10 to 12,000 persons a year and in addition to that what we have not been counting and will begin counting are those rowing teams who come to use the site in January and February generally during the the winters when the New England and Mid-Atlantic rowing teams cannot practice back home and so this year we had a number of teams from farther north exeutive Iowa Dartmouth and so you're welcome all of us from Valia County all of us anywhere are welcome to come access the site to watch these teams and stetson's rowing team practice so if you've never seen the longboats some of which are nearly 60 feet long practice on Lake barisford it's an experience so please come in enjoy the public access in this fabulous site that does many different things let let me pause to stress that our first grant was an O for outdoor recreation this grant is an e for environment and so with one site we do two things with taxpayer funding and r on the hook for a long time so please come enjoy okay thank you for your answer you have one more question I'm just I'm going to let the council know I'm I'm struggling with this one um Danny you're right this is there's many benefits to this project it will help clean up the water it's a good teaching tool my issue is is in my opinion this stretches the intent of Ekko to give taxpayer money to a private university who when I look at the money could easily afford this without um without asking the taxpayers to pay for it um David Santiago thank you Mr chairman Mr chairman I I I think your your your points are well taken at least for me is something that we should look into right and and consider uh for future my my struggle with it uh today is that it's met the requirements and and I'd be willing to have that that discussion to see how we do it going forward and I think staff has done the work to say that it meets the requirements there's president but I'm open to that dialogue Mr chair I think it's worthy of a good discussion but I think if they've met those box checked those boxes already you know going back to what I kind of sort of the comments I made earlier yeah exactly so Mr chair with with with that do I haven't done this in a while I'd like to call the question okay uh Tor you've just been uh you've just been stepped on Sorry's that are you okay yeah Santiago you okay called the question which means we have to vote immediately but he's yielding to to so I'll just say this chairman and not that you know I'm trying to help you on this but this is where my mind went with it I had some of those same concerns that you shared and it's obvious to me that ston can my concern is always Public Access and I think you've you've answered that question uh I think that the echo board had some very healthy questions for you all as as well when this came up because of the public access piece we want to make sure that the public can participate and can access and they're not being shunned away um and listen STS and students either from this area or outside of this area they're ours man they're valouch County residents while they're here and I love that they're here so I think that they can afford it chairman but I think if any of us were in that situation and there was a government program that was for these purposes and like Mr Santiago said and um Mr Robin said the application was complete they weren't missing anything they have a plan for future success okay okay end of comments then I'll call the question all in favor of the Stetson University Lake Beford Shoreline restoration say I I any opposed thank you and the motion carries 7 to zero M thank you so I I think the you know we're we're willing to have a further conversation about that but I would just for the public record like council members to know and and our taxpayers that the 10 projects that have been funded by the the echo um tax assessment um that are operating by the universities in this County um those projects um have as the primary use public the public use um so one of the things that I will share with you based on my experience is that these government governments and like universities are the best operating partners that we have so part of the conversation that's missing is that they have agreed to operate this for our public for 20 years and that's their money not taxpayer money that's private university money that's used to operate this facility so um I did pull the annual reports from these 10 projects that we've funded over the years uh in terms of what does the public access looks like does not include student access and of the these 10 projects in the last annual reports serve 288,000 visitors so um if we eliminate universities from accessing we've eliminated a good operating part partner for these projects so with that being said I will um talk and thank you for that yes sir absolutely but open the have the conversation certainly um the next is a one that was um your staff reviewed and and recommended approval um it met eligibility um by the advisory committee but it did not score the minimum 80 scored to 79.2 n um it's from the city of New Samara Beach an expansion uh to their skate park the request was 100 for 148,000 they were bringing 153,000 um to the table so this would sorry I didn't Advance there um so this is you know so at this point in time it's not recommended for funding but you can see what the description was um you know I asked my team to dig into the transcript to um help provide a better understanding so I could explain to council why this didn't meet the threshold um you know one of the things I think that was discussed during the committee and maybe and now this is speculative because I and I don't want to speak for the committee but there was very little discussion but when those scores um played out they received a 79.2 n um the RFP could have been improved there was a a process that was described in the application that they would go out and get public input um once the the grant application was improved so um you know kind of typically we'll see s or or our applicants that will do that first and understand what the community wants this was a a little different process but that's the the best insights I can give you on why we are where we are with this one okay thank you and I will let the council know um before Mr Santiago calls for the vote we do have uh four members of the public from new samna who would like to speak to this but first uh Troy Kent thank you chairman um Dr bball was the application complete yes sir are they missing anything no sir they have a plan for Success yes sir it fell within fell under the threshold of 80 at a 79.2 n yes sir when can we have another cycle for them to come back if this is denied so um there is a recommendation associated with this agenda it that comes from your advisory Council to establish a second Grant cycle this year precedent for that um it would begin in 4 weeks um if it's approved by this Council I've given you an an a calendar draft calendar otherwise they would return in November as part of our annual cycle yeah I I hate that this one didn't get 80 uh Orman Beach implemented and created a skate park years ago and I love that new Suna has one this this new 8,000 ft addition I'm sure would be welcomed for that Community there and if you've not been to a skate park in a while I recommend you go and stop by at different times throughout the day because it's not what you might think okay I know the I just say I speak for the one in orand you know we have a vendor there that makes sure that the language is appropriate and the behaviors are appropriate and there are the age of kids you think would be there but then there's also dads and moms with three and four and fivey olds participating as well and it's wholesome and it's nice to see and I'm disappointed this one did not meet the 80 threshold it's close but why do we have rules set if we're not going to follow them that's my only concern with this one is we've set we've set rules and if we're not going to follow the rules rules that we've set then why have any rules thank you councilman Robbins thank you chair uh Mr Kent thank you uh for that for that support and you're absolutely right Port Orange has one or you said Orman um this one's huge uh with the families down there second next to pickle ball in new samna beach I when I talk to folks in the community they say what do we want Believe It or Not pickle ball was one of them and then there was a skate park you know and and whatnot um I think we can get there on on this I mean ultim ultimately Mr Kent this is a recommendation uh you're right about the rules um we've also done uh direct expenditures when it came to uh certain things in the past which I don't necessarily agree with um but uh I think we could still get there Mr burall you said we can come back in in four weeks because I I'd like to to give this Council an opportunity to also look over the the paperwork and score this themselves to see if there was any discrepancies uh in the scoring unless they've they've already done it um because ultimately do we have that that power and that leeway to to also score this absolutely and there's precedent for that the when councilwoman gertman was on the council there was a project that scored within one point and the this Council may make a motion at any time to fund this project now and um into the future thank you I'd like to hear what uh my fellow uh council members would like to say and do thank you councilman Johansson and ju just to clarify um by voting today we reassure it we either take the score or adjust the score and approve it correct yes sir all right um Mr Kent asked a bunch of questions that you answered affirmative to um correct two affirmative and one in the netive yes so as far as as as far as meeting the prerequisits other than the score which is not exactly scientific um uh they metant everything they needed to meet yes sir and staff recommended approval and and staff recommended approval um I I I bring to council's attention that we not often but occasionally go against the plr DC's recommendation and and allow variances and things of that nature I see this as a board that that gave us their honest opinion of what they think um um I got a email or two from a few folks that stated that they were surprised this didn't pass either so um you know given the the fact that we operate uh in the sunshine they don't collude uh they had no way of knowing and and doctoring it um and saying ooh 79.9 I'm going to up mine two points and and let's make this one to pass uh they had to provide it as it was so I'm having a problem with this um because it was so close and it's a a great um it's a great way to get kids off the street and doing something um somewhat organizationally so so uh um I I respect everybody's comment here but but I I I don't want to catch myself in a position where I'm I'm I'm going by the the the the grade here and put my foot down and then when we go to other advisory committees are recommending something we uh the ahck plrc I've talked about a few others so um so I'm I suggest we give ourselves the latitude to approve or disapprove this based on the merits of the uh of the application and what it's for thank you councilman Dempsey yeah Dr burbo um the rules also allow us to basically ignore the the point scoring system and do what we want with approval or denial correct yes sir the these are purely recommendations that come from your staff and uh The Advisory Council you are the decision makers okay um and just to be cons and I agree with Jake I mean I we need to get kids outside and doing things I mean it's not all just walking trails that we need in this County we need stuff that excites kids to get them out of the house off of their computers and their phones and get them out doing athletic stuff I don't think kids necessarily enjoy walking on Trails so much as they do riding dirt bikes or skateboarding or playing soccer or anything that gets them uh outside and exercising so I I agree with Jake I hate to see something get shot down because of an inexact numbering system I mean it's not like we send these things off to NASA to calculate this score I mean this is just kind of a a guideline correct it's correct we we provide a rubric to the committee to make it uh more objective evaluation than subjective but uh you know council member Johansson is correct there's there's no way to know I mean they call out their scores in in a public meeting that it wouldn't it wouldn't score until the very end and the process is done all right and this has been done before right yes sir Mr German and okay that's all I'm in favor of this guys thanks Vice chair Kent yeah this is encouraging to hear from some of the council members because we do get the ultimate final final say on this I I do have a question though so the threshold is 80 and this came below the threshold why did staff recommend approval if it didn't meet the threshold we we do our review before the committee so we do our review of the application we provide a summary and our concerns comments and findings we provide that to committee as a part of their evaluation so we do not score the application the the committee does thank you very much yes sir uh Brad before you go is the uh does this project include the uh a pro shop Pro Skate Shop I would ask if you let nna um provide their public comment well my team and I will review the application I I believe it does not it believes it's the amenities that are provided it's not included but it will be on site okay but and we'll double check that but that's what my team tell okay Matt did you want to ask a question before I call just real quick um and I think it was just said because I had written notes as I was going through this and and I really dug down on this one because I knew that there would be questions about it um Don you had said the the key word I was looking for the scoring is a guideline and then Mr bbau you answered the next question with respect to why it was recommended uh because you guys scored ahead of time I didn't know that so thank you I appreciate that um and also I guess to me when it's that close is it safe to say that there's some bit of subjectivity in that scoring so you know based on their opinions that well it meets that threshold if you look at the scoring on the sheet there was one of them one or two of them that was so far vastly different I didn't that's why I had the most concern about that is because why was this one person off but um we just had a park a skate park in in District 2 in South Daytona that is shut down so that concerned me is because you know like the rest of you I want to see our kids be able to have those outdoor activities instead of being inside so um get them outside get them outside we all grew up like this now you know they're all inside on their computers you know I tell my grandkids get outside and play so this is a perfect opportunity for that so I'm leaning more towards a yes on this because of that um because of that being that one point off I just wanted to want to mention that thank you I did confirm with the city manager that the Pro Shop is not part of this request it is on site but it is not part of the the grant request okay you just heard what Matt said so no pressure but Kelly do you want to come first we've got four members the public that would like to speak good morning Mr chairman thank you very much and council members uh my name is KH rerat I'm the city manager for the city of n Beach um um as most of you have commented uh the scoring is subjective uh what happened is and I could tell you the the low scoring on on the sheet which was 165 and 173 I think one of the uh advisory committee member will had concern about the design build uh uh method I have 35 years of experience in in construction and engineering and I have used it so many times and it was successful so I'm not sure exactly what was his concern about the design build I think it was that the cost of the project would increase uh we have a limited uh budget for it and that's what we go with the scope and and indicate the amount that it was indicated um the last thing I want is the council to go against their their policy but again because it was subjective with 79.2 n I think it just it doesn't make sense uh and I would recommend that and I encourage the the council to approve the project it's highly uh uh used by our youth in newna it's probably the only skate park in southeast valua um and the as I think one of the council members indicated the three the four and the 5 years old are out there with the dads and the mothers so um it's as you could see we got five staff members here it's it's a it's a small City every dollar counts so uh we appreciate if you could approve it thank you very much thank you Jesse Kobe you'll be followed by Chad Gibson who will be followed by Rob Salasar I'm Jesse Kobe the Capital Improvements project manager for the City of New Suna Beach although I've only been there almost one year now I have over 20 years of experience in Capital Improvements and project management for places partnering with companies like NASA um also building Hospital facilities around the globe with different countries to local municipalities building docs peers boardwalks and so forth um as I was a part of the city of new samna beach and we were looking at this project it was was actually one of my recommendations to do a design build because as you do different projects there's not a one-size fits-all best approach for any specific project um most of projects we do do do do design first um and then move on to construction but sometimes from my perspective it's most advantageous to have a successful project when you do design and build at the same time and part of the reason for that was because skate parks are a unique feature they're not a common thing that uh there's not a lot of design from compan companies that just specialize in building skate parks so most of the time the same company that designs it will turn around and build it so that was part of our recommendation it was it would actually save money be more cost effective it would have better communication from the designer to the Builder because they're the same place and it would just expedite the time a little bit so that was my reasoning behind that and um as College shared there's a lot of people I've been there we've already put the building that was mentioned it's already on site the BR shops is we did that on our own it's established it's up and running so um kudos to our team there that's all I have to share thank you Chad Gibson thank you Council my name is Chad Gibson I am the CIP and Grant coordinator for city of new samera beach and I'm also a resident of Lucia County so I do have a couple things just to address with the echos skate park uh expansion um you know first off just as a resident you know all you hear about just in new samura and in Valia county is where do you go skate so a lot has you know there's not a lot of places to actually go and this would again as uh council's already pointed out be safety reasons getting them off the street being able to have more uh expansion uh to be able to skate freely in the the skate park you don't want them running into each other uh of course you know so give them more room this has already been a successful project that was already uh design build so we already have success there so we want to continue the success and we want to say thank you again for the support already with uh the the skate park itself to the Echo and um that's what I want to point out thank you thank you rob Salazar thank you Council Rob Salazar Leisure Services director for the city of new beach um just to add on to what our city staff has pointed out uh the city completed the installation of the new uh 900 squ ft modular building uh that replaced the uh previous building that was on site that was about 20 years old it was an old school portable and we completed that install in January uh one of the comments that we had um from the advisory committee was that we did not have the skin in the game um to uh recommend to move forward with that that but I wanted to point that out that the building was outside of the echogr scope but we have completed that just recently additionally um it's free skating when the Park is open so how the park works is uh it's there's a fence area and we have operating hours that uh you have to come through the building to access the park so that adds to the safety of the park um and the residents in the uh Park really love that the families really support that uh concept um additionally this potential uh expansion if approved would increase the volume of skaters we could serve substantially um along the lines of what Mr Reinhardt said giving uh the opportunity to the youth and the families to be outdoors uh we'd be able to serve even more Youth and families than we have previously so thank you for your consideration I hope you guys approve it thank you uh councilman Robbins motion to approve second councilman Danny Robbins makes a motion to approve and the second was by Matt Reinhardt uh don Dempsey I just had a question if any one of yall from new samarta this isn't just a skate park you're allowed to ride BMX bikes there as well is that right there's no BMX bikes allowed just skateboarders okay oh boy I might be able to help you Mr Dempsey okay they can ride their BMX bike to the skate park okay to get on their skateboard that way you don't that way you don't have bicyclist running into no you don't like that yeah it's no because in Port Orange we have an echo funded skate park that allows bicycles you are correct the land we have skateboards and bicycles mixed is it's a little it's a little different um because how compact the space within the park is um when we get a lot of traffic um the BMX and the skate it's it's kind of sketchy coming crossing paths and whatnot um that was part of the established rules uh when the park went up uh the park was originally built with Echo support as well um when it was constructed so uh what we've done a little bit we've had some BMX nights previously um but 99.9% of the time this is Skate only with the 8,000 F foot expansion will that enable more time for the the kids who ride BMX bikes we haven't we haven't considered that yet but that could potentially be an option I don't want to give you a false promise you would acknowledge most skate parks allow BMX bikes out of at the same time as skateboarders I would acknowledge it um I also have um heard from the staff that is on site that um the BMX the nature of the BMX uh how they utilize the bowl and the rails and the the different components of the park um it also damages the park quick quicker than regular skates so that's a consideration we also you know okay so that's just what I get from the staff on site I mean I'm in favor of this but I'm just there's a whole another segment of your community may would like to access this with their bicycle so I would just hope that you guys could carve out some time throughout the weeks to allow them use of it as well not just skateboarders we certainly can give that consideration thank you yeah that that's a good idea do you own a BMX bite Don okay uh Troy Kent back in the day riding among Mongoose man right that's right so councilman dimsey I'm really glad you brought that up because I know at Orman skate park they allow BMX bikes and skateboarders at the same time I know they do and or and new Suna listen you do new Suna are you guys have one of the best surfing spots on the east coast and uh you've got some romance with sharks down there as well which we won't get into new Suna you do new Suna but I think councilman Dempsey brings up a point that um to your city manager I think it would be a healthy discussion with your city Commission in new samna to um at least have have that open dialogue because you're right there is a portion of the community and the youth that they like writing their bicycles in those parks and it can work my my comment on this also is that I'm really pleased you have a fence and a quick question the building you have during operating hours you said they have to access the park through the building is that is that what I heard so they have to come through there yes sir and and do you have a policy with bad behavior you know one two three strikes you're out yes sir I love hearing that also yeah just because you know as a father you know my son is a a senior this year and he'd be mortified with me saying it so I I hope he's in class and not listening online like my parents are hey Mom and Dad but um you know not okay to have your kids anywhere in my opinion and and be subjected to that inappropriate language is that something you all also pay attention to is is the language the behaviors yes sir uh the staff we have on site um monitors the behavior of the youth and just all the participants in general um it's always staffed when the park open so there's always supervision city manager you showed up you brought your staff here they're prepared they're ready for questions home run okay I don't see any other uh comments I'll let the council know for whatever it's worth that before this debate I did look at the scoring on this and I came up with a score of 81.5 so so for me um I I'm going to support this uh I think it's a a good project I think it'll be good for the uh for the Youth um uh of new samura uh so without any other so that coupled with our 2.5 would give them $4.3 million for construction costs of this facility um the as you guys are as council members are probably aware the I provided a memo uh that walks through the timeline and the um the decision process for this application um it came to you with a recommendation of approval um from the advisory committee and it came to you with a recommendation from your staff of disapproval because it did not have the required construction documents um to make it a shovel ready project at this point in time um they're still in the design phase of this project and when you're in the design phase you really it's very difficult to provide a firm plan um um that presents a complete picture of what our involvement will be and what taxpayers will get for their investment um the there's Universal agreement on this project that it's a good environmental project with the fact that it's situated in a preserve on environmentally sensitive land does not make the infrastructure development expansion of public amenities and vertical construction found in De Barry's application different from all other Echo projects that have these found elements as such your staff has applied the rules in the same manner to this project as they've been applied to other projects in an effort to provide a fair and transparent evaluation process for Grant applicants and our taxpayers the this Council previously adopted rules that require shovel ready projects the rule is working an analysis by our auditor has indicated in the last iteration of Lucha for it took on average 2.67 years years to get a project completed since the implementation of this rule it's taken 1.56 years to um get projects completed full disclosure we have a much larger data set for the the previous iteration of the program than we do for this so I want that to to be publicly shared as well um eeko staff approach has always been to work with our municiple partners and non-government um are nonprofits um to help them be successful in in our rigorous non-political Grant evaluation process in November when the grant process started I engaged with the city manager and provide provided guidance on a pathway to success under the current rules instead a path that characterized the echo Grant process as flawed and resulted in the alternative path being pro proposed today was undertaken so that's a kind of a summary of where we are with the dear application thank you Vice chair Kent thank you chairman uh same questions was the application complete no what were they missing uh required construction documents they have a plan moving forward to be successful in the future when the construction documents are prepared yes is this a shovel ready project no sir when will um another cycle be able to come up as you answered it earlier but I just want to hear it again uh April 25th would be the technical review applications was Daytona Beach denied um on similar grounds in the past and if so can you please refresh my memory yes sir 20 it was the last cycle um and they were denied for the same exact reason okay last cycle Daytona Beach denied exact same reason yes sir thank you thank you Mr Kent um we have three three people that would like to speak uh to this I'll start with Pat northy first of all thank you for all you do it's uh hard making these kinds of decisions when you're talking about taxpayer dollars um and I'm here not as your Echo chair I I will I'm fine to answer any questions if you have the about the committee but I'm here as an individual to speak in support of Alexander Island um I would encourage you to vote for and fund the Alexander Island project that DeBry has requested as an exceptional project well there is a technical issue that staff has has identified as a member of the echo board I believe the environmental scope of the project deserves an exception the echo board by a vote of 7-2 who scored the project and is scored within their within our guidelines and you and you can now bring this great project into the public trust DeBerry um has proven that they can move this project forward their issues are environmental and as you all know that when you're dealing with environmental issues so sometimes dealing with a with a bureaucracy can be an issue but I know that they're going to address that and I would encourage you all to to find them and in compliance for the 200 excuse me for the $2.5 million exceptional project thank you uh DeBry city manager Carmen Ros Amanda if you would like the mayor to go first mayor Shaz good morning Karen Shaz mayor of DeBerry first of all thank you for listening to us on this project it is a really important project that we have worked very hard on we've put a lot of taxpayer dollars in it we believe that the plan that we have going forward is the best use of taxpayer dollars both ours and the echo dollars as well because we can accelerate the public access in opening this as a passive Park I will let the city manager address the issue of our selected uh process for building out this phase one which has 14 elements the Alexander Island property was acquired for use as a passive Recreation Nature Park and we paid 3.5 million of DeBerry taxpayer dollars yes they did come from the feds through the arpa plan but we had those available for any any City use and we dedicated that to this park with the aim of protecting both the natural and cultural resources on the site the park is intended to be managed only for the conservation protection and enhancement of those resources and for public outdoor recreation that is compatible with the conservation protection and enhancement of the site these are the prioritized objectives protection of Natural Resources providing recreational opportunities for everyone provide freshwater research opportunities there is a D support organization that has expressed an interest in having a location on the property for our water research facility and that goes forward it is not part of the echo application to provide nature-based activities and programming and provide access to the St John's river and provi preserve cultural and archaeological resources as we may find them on the property you do have the ability to decide that this can go forward and I understand wanting shovel ready efficient projects this is efficient as we can make it and we have been working on it non-stop with massive public participation since acquiring it February 1 2023 We Believe with our project with our plans which is a plan for Success that we could open it this December with the essential early elements and that the other elements can be developed as the four environmental permits per element come in while the public has access the direct Appropriations that you do which is your right also do not have shovel ready plans you know that you will do them we submit we will do this thank you very much Carmen thank you chairman Council uh I'm Cara Ru Amanda city manager of Deber um our application is for phase one of a larger multiphase project as you know this is 170 acre project our mission is to build the most beautiful the best and and enjoyable nature and conser Conservation Park in the State of Florida yeah you may not know but this 170 acre Park was destined for development uh as it was part of a 2008 approved uh development plan to build 256 homes on it the Barry successfully negotiated and purchased this property in February 2023 to protect and preserve this pristine property Alexander Island meets two Echo categories it's an outdoor project as we call it a park and a certain portion of on the 17 Acres of Upland is is a Nature Park but it's also um mostly environmental as it's got 2 miles of St John's Riverfront environmental projects especially 2 miles of uh Riverfront and the 150 acres of wetlands are very complex the time it takes to work with three to four environmental and Wildlife agencies can be extensive using the echo shovel ready guidelines we would not be able to initiate construction until we get all the engineering permits and construction plans completed and approved for an exceptional Grant until March of 2026 before we applied we conferred with staff prior to the application and even though they would not commit they recommended a design build strategy to improve our application DeBry runs government like a business and we have fast-tracked this project to get this nature Conservation Park open to the public as soon as possible within 13 months we have gone from purchase to concept to engineering to have our entrance fully permitted and ready to go as you can see on the chart there um it's it's ready and even though your guidelines are not flexible enough for large scale environmental projects we recommended a three-step incremental design strategy to get us to the same guaranteed conclusion and I think that's what uh your um shovel ready objective was is to get these projects done but I think this design build also gets us to the same conclusion as your guidelines accelerating this project by two years as you can see on the chart Step One is the entrance into the park it's it's been engineered we received the St John's river uh permit through two weeks ago step two is a shell parking lot restrooms nature trails and Historic Oak U the nature trails through the Historic Oak hamic step three are all the water amenities on the St John's River the fishing pier the kayak canoe launch the Overlook and the riverfront boardwalk and simply thank you okay my thought uh Brad Jake Johansson you have a question for Brad or for one of the DeBerry Representatives uh for for Brad um I noticed that that there there using CMR for this is is that something that's been used no sir before successfully I I call that car city manager at risk um now we we have allowed design bid build approach before to save taxpayer dollars and that was what was recommended and there you know there was a they were already down a different pathway based on my conversations with Carmen sure so you know I I think the main concern for the city right now is that that they're on a track faster than we're willing to go and they're assuming a little more risk than we're as as a as a policy willing to assume in in the interest because this Council has talked about uh um compressing the time making sure things get done in time is uh Sear something that we ought to be considering and accepting a little risk with some caveats in the policy or is it something we want to stay away from from a from a staff perspective so I will share that what our policy practice is that we will do not engage in a semar um contract until we have 60% at least 60% of the design to go out with the project at this point in time they're not at 60% with all that they have here got it um and and technically this is a project that should not have even come to the echo board in its current state or is that is that yes yes so there as as you will see in the memo there was a um in the eligibility phase um where typically this would be turned away um as ineligible because of the incomplete application there was some inartful wording and the motion to find it ineligible rather than in the affirmative and so um and it tied so it meant it it failed so that doesn't become if the tie vote for ineligibility um fails it doesn't then make it eligible um there was another motion made by the committee to find the project eligible and it died for a lack of a second so given that kind of situation we found ourselves in um you know we we moved it through the process to try to give to council um as many decision points as possible um in in this decision-making process and hindsight um you know we Laura and I have talked about how U to address these in terms of having that motion eligibility both at forever and Echo um in the affirmative so we don't find ourselves in this situation again so yes it should have not made it this far copy um so having said all that and we've had discussions about having a a midterm review um can they get there in your opinion and I'll ask Harman the same thing can they get there in your opinion for the next cycle so I will say Shar that if you want to bring back up carman's PowerPoint so I think the shovel ready strategy that Carmen outlines here does not take into account the additional the additional cycle that's recommended by your committee so if you were to recommend having an additional cycle in four weeks they would be able to turn their application in with award in October of 2024 so it kind of would uh align uh I know they're saying they'll be done in December 2024 but this Pro this would protect the Integrity of the program but also give them an opportunity I will share with you that during the committee meeting that Carmen and his team shared some initial drawings of these phase one improvements um I had art and construction engineering team review those and he feel our County engineer feels that they are on track to if if we had another cycle in four weeks um based on his review of the plans they have so far they would be ready for that cycle got it and and I'll ask uh I guess caring since you're sitting right there well I I know you well enough to know you want to get the project going but other than that what's the big hurry well I'm not sure if we're going to be able to meet the next cycle because you're going to require shovel ready in four weeks we're not going to be totally shovel ready the environmental part of the river um as we dictate in here the permit's probably going to be for our fishing pier our kayak launches our Riverfront Boardwalk probably will not come it's going to take a whole year to get those permits will'll be in well after March 2025 um before we get the per permits for the boardwalk and water amenities and that's why we wanted to do the incremental design build is that we can get the entrance in and build our way into the park uh we we can get the all the other men decent step two done by December and while we're doing that we are working on getting those water manity engineering and permits done and completed and that's why we think we can we can get the entire park open um all the water amities um by September 2025 but if you're going to re if you're going to stick to um Bill I mean uh to shov ready um the environmental projects and the permitting and Engineering for the environmental is not going to be done until March at least March 2025 it sounds like we're willing to accept 60% under sear if you're going to continue to go that route it sounds like you're almost there now based on staff Engineers comments in in all due respect uh uh council member I mean I think you have the ability Prov a little bit more flexibility like the 60% design build that was just recommended um and provide a variance um we can build this thing better cheaper and faster by using a design build methodology um and uh and get this park open to the public two years faster um and that's and that's why you know we we we really working on a fast track to get this open our we got 5.77 million invested in our residence and I think it's important to open this this park up as fast as we possibly can can and just because of a technicality of um requiring construction plans on every single thing and have it fully shovel ready um sometimes on environmental projects may not be the best strategy and and just to verify you knew about the preconditions or the assumptions going into the we conf we conferred with staff and and and they and even though they couldn't commit and and I I appreciate Brad and and everybody who's been working with that the design build might be a good strategy to improve our application and so um that's that's what we've been doing um it a design build as as your your previous applicant said is is uh the best way to go um you get the architect and the Builder together um they design it to be better cheaper and faster um than when you do waiting until the whole project is shov already and then then you're subject to maybe two years later uh the costs go up again right we do less with two years from now okay thank you m councilman Robins uh thank you chair is it okay if I call Miss norley back back to Pat are you willing to and I say that and I ask that because you're probably the resident expert on Echo I'm just talking about in general because um Miss Nory in your experience so this doesn't happen because I just want to say I fully support the project I want it I want it as quickly as possible I think it's more than than than worthy of it um but what language in your opinion um or or items within like chapter 50 or 72 I know this is a a big thing right now but um what would you recommend language wise that we can change so we don't run into this again on good projects well I I that's kind of a loaded but you know um I do think that uh annually the echo committee does review language of of the the way things come in and it's my opinion at this point after having gone through this project with DeBerry and seeing that first of all it's listed as a um outdoor recreation it really is a lot about resiliency and about the shoreline the shoreline access and knowing that River I know that you know that River I think that we as a committee would be my recommendation and I go office chair next month to re review those sections of of the application process and look at how we deal with with environmental if you look at the breakdown of Echo by the by The Alphabet by the letters if I recall correctly the e in Echo is the lease that we um fund and so to me there's the a there must be a reason for that and I think we have to take a as a committee take a long hard look at how we do that and do exactly what you are saying is review the elements we we've we've really tried to make them be consistent but maybe there and there has been some discussion on the board about do we have different elements for different parts of eeko and maybe that's what we need to go to and and have a conversation about that we do that annually and the staff has been great I I just I love working with it with the staff we just had a difference of opinion by seven we ended up saying forward this project on to you so that you could make the decision as govern Gover in board that is it was that important sure the river was that important for us to take a look at and say we understand the application process maybe doesn't work well for the E and Echo Pat would you be willing we have a workshop where we're talking about a lot of this stuff coming up on April 30th you had mentioned the the bureaucracy and and a lot of this some of these hold environmental holdbacks that are now affecting a project that I think we all want would you be willing uh and get your I know you still have a team out there together to to look possibly and help us see where we can trim some of the stuff that maybe is not necessary at this point or overlapping with state regulations that's causing these extended weight times on permits that we're now seeing we want something but we also what's good for the goose has to be good for the gander we have to be consistent in what we do if you're able to to work with us I'm I'm going to try to get you there okay and I'll fight for you okay okay I appreciate it thank you for helping okay so just point of clarification is um the the rules adopted by this council do not contemplate having permits in hand it's construction documents in hand okay I had a question about the the Environmental permits we keep hearing that it'll take about a year is that from County or state state I believe D state and federal state and federal that's why it takes so long Army Corps and D is with the mayor's telling me okay and you have said that it's been recommended that we go to another allow them to go to another cycle to give them time to get ready Carmen said which that would be four weeks from now Carmen said we still won't be ready what happens after after that if they're not ready so I I misspoke my team corrected me when I sat down so the mandatory Workshop would be in April and 4 weeks the application would be due in seven weeks in June the middle of June okay and and as a point of clarification it this application was submitted in November so now we've had December you know we'll have had eight months since this was submitted to produce some of those drawings that are required they could also asked for a smaller amount to complete what the what they have for the drawings that was my that was my next question I keep we keep hearing about phases this is for an exceptional Grant it sounds like it's been broken down to phases could could they come back and say not an exceptional Grant but uh standard grant to get started to get the entrance done or does that start the whole thing all over again they could come back but the public the entrance as would need to be part of a project because there's no well without analyzing it I'm thinking of public access the entrance will provide public access to the facility um so I guess that when we get into a hairy situation is when we're doing infrastructure only okay and not amenities I you you can probably tell I'm struggling with with this one I this is a beautiful piece of property I I want this project to go through but Carman just talked about the requirements as technicalities I that that puts all of us in a bad uh position it's not technicalities we're supposed to be overseeing Echo project um and there's rules in place that should be followed um when Daytona Beach didn't follow them we sent them back and now they got it together and brought it back so this makes it this takes it into the realm of of politics because Carmen everybody respects you and the work that you have done in live local other things you run a good city mayor Shaz is is probably a she's got seven fans up here I think she's an amazing mayor everybody wants this to pass but every but some of us I I don't know who because we can't talk about this before um want the rules to be followed we need to protect the Integrity of the echo Grant process to make it political is damaging to the entire um to the entire Echo process you know this is coming to us as as an exceptional Grant which means it serves the entire County I think your estimate is it that would serve almost 30,000 people you have one of the best parks in Valia County in the Rob Sullivan Park in De that that was a standard Grant and it serves 158,000 people so I'm I'm also struggling with the exceptional Grant um part of this but U Troy Kent thank you chairman uh Dr bbau so a couple of things um and some good takeaways that I have from from this healthy discussion is you know you talked about uh shovel ready projects one and a half years compared to seven plus years when they weren't shovel ready is that correct is that what I heard 2.7 versus 1.5 yes I'm glad you corrected me on that so 2.7 Jonathan would correct me so to 1.5 okay good and and I'm so pleased that we've given you that direction um because we want these projects to happen in a expeditious timeline so our residents can get out there and really really enjoy uh what our community has to offer now uh Council just so you know I met with mayor um is it Shaz thank you very much we had uh a nice afternoon where we walked the property I was able to see it I had never laid eyes on it before and I'm appreciative of that and I appreciate mayor that you mentioned that the tax dollars were indeed arpa co co co funds okay so it's still tax dollars but little different than you know to me it does it does a little bit to me it matters a little bit just because it's a little different you know federal tax dollars you say they're all tax dollars um but I think it's a I think it was a smart move on deberry's part to use those funds for that purpose I'm not knocking that but um Brad you mentioned and I'm glad you did because the question I was going to have for you was you know how long has this been going on and you said eight months where DeBry has known so where are they with their design process now eight months later where are they so I can tell you based on the drawings they provided at the grant review panel meeting which was last month month ago March um they're close on the first phase based on those drawings and that was a my judgment but also the county Engineers judgment and I'll let Tad jump in here if he has something to add but um we reviewed them together and he said um the timeline is reasonable reasonable because of the plans that they're presenting if they were to come back in October okay and then Brad sort of a rhetorical questions here but why do we have these rules is the answer one of the answers to protect the Integrity of the echo program absolutely and is another one to make sure the taxpayers are indeed protected protected but provided and I've been on both sides so when I came we didn't have this rule um the shovel ready Rule and I think what and based on my experiences and your situational awareness when we approve a project in the design phase we're not getting um a full picture because the budget th that design and Engineering phase informs the budget and so at this point it's just estimates and so what we saw in the last cycle is when we accepted non shovel ready projects in this design phase they would essentially be coming to council multiple times for uh scope changes so um you know decreasing the amenities that they're going to provide the community based on the cost estimates that became evident later in the process when your engineering and design aligns with construction and your estimate and so it's not painting the full picture when we approve things on the design phase gotcha thank you for that detailed answer I I really appreciate it and and Council I'll just say I I'm with what I've heard most of you already mention I want this to happen this is a wonderful thing for DeBry and valua County and uh this region of Florida absolutely when I heard the city manager talk about this being him wanting it to be the best I think it was city manager the best in the State of Florida my ears perked up I love that that's that's a great goal and I want that to happen how do I approve this when we sent Daytona packing and saying no for the same reasons that's a concern of mine um so I'm I'm struggling with that and I think that with what uh Dr bbau has mentioned I think that with the next cycle they can get the required information and have it ready for at least a phase or two right away thank you if if I may chair add just to Mr council member Robin's comments um and questions to miss Nory um I think it's important to be flexible and I committed that when I was a you know nominated and confirmed as your resource stewardship director to be flexible but also implement the implement the program with transparency and integrity one of the things that your staff has done through our work with the County engineer and our purchasing division is recommended some Solutions in terms of language when your Echo advisory committee meets and on April 11th so we're going to have that discussion with the committee in terms of you know do we need to be more flexible on our approach here with and that may come with recommendations for changes to the guide book and rules um but I think changing them in the middle of a process is not um the right thing to do thank you uh councilman Reinhardt thank you chair um just a couple things because everything's been hit on um full disclosure Karma met with us showed us the the drawings the con uh conceptual drawings of this and and every single one of us have said this is a a wonderful fac I mean I can't wait to see it um and we want this to succeed since that time again full disclosure I've received numerous emails numerous phone calls and in-person conversations from individuals within the city of Daytona Beach and the very first thing that was brought up you turn down our project for the almost the same thing and that being said being consistent is important I'm going to go back to what we said uh I loved your your comment Cher Integrity of the grant process Mr Ken following the rules shovel ready rule we have to be consistent so I'm struggling as well I want this project I want it I really really do I truly do but uh Mr Kent you said it too you know half your district is in Daytona as well um and the Jackie Robinson ballpark issue and then they took it decided to come back and I guess they're in that cycle to come back and return yes sir so in my conversations um with uh Daytona they would be uh prepared to come if there was our second cycle this year so in June I didn't mean to mix the two but they have similarities that's why I'm asking okay that's all I have thank you chair councilman Robbins thank you chair uh Brad this is for you this up down up down it's getting fun right um I'm Catholic I'm used to it there you go a couple years ago and I could say this because I've been part of this since since uh then you're here uh there was a political vote um up in the loop right for a piece of property that was on power lines I don't I vaguely remember the scoring on it but can you explain and I know you were here too can you explain how that was purchased so I was to do my best from I wasn't I still working for UF at the time I wasn't a County employee and involved sorry I don't believe I was um so it was a combination of funds I believe so and I know Clay was involved so anyone but it was a portion was a direct County expenditure which this Council has the prerogative to do um we do have a historic stabilization um process and grant program um that aligns with the echo um process but it's basically so if we find something that's historical and it needs to be saved it can be considered on an emergency basis and that was that was the process that was followed as I understand it for the purchase of that property because there was a portion of it that was found to be historical because it contained um old King's Highway I believe uh city of DeBerry who's the most knowledgeable in your group right now uh that be able to speak in terms of historic uh or an emergency is there anything uh that you can think of emergency wise that would um fit the same standards that the chairman and I maybe used about 3 years ago to uh vote up on that project is anybody able to speak to that I'm just trying to cover all basis here to May mayor Shaz is approaching the microphone thank you um I don't know that we can we fully expect to find historic artifacts on this property but until we are in further in the development phase I don't know that we can quantify them for a while we thought that Fort Florida a temporary Supply Depot actually was on that property and to our best knowledge it was on the property north of us by several hundred ft um I live on the river a little north of where this property is and there's a mid within 100 F feet of my house so there's a high degree of chance that there are historic elements there but to be truthful I can't give you one right now that says it is an urgent issue in reference to the difference between a Hardscape plan like Daytona Beach's addition to Jackie Robinson and an environmental property being developed from raw land there's very different ability to get plans um I know that if you had were doing an addition on your house you could probably be asked to give plans because it's a known plot of land it's been developed there's infrastructure and I only offer that to distinguish it but to be honest about the historic I cannot give you the urgency um that was sensed because of eminent development on the other property I will tell you that if we had not used the arpa funds we would have seen that prop go for development there was a developer right behind us and the Uplands there were permitted already under an old PUD for 40 some homes and all of that Oak Hammock would have been gone if we didn't act and we ran into an issue with one issue with Florida forever one issue with Valia forever and so we came to the point we either lose this property or we take the arpa funds that we have and we preserve it for everyone thank you and now we're trying to to make it accessible as quickly as we can and the reason mayor and the reason I say that to your credit um those same standards that you had talked about in terms of uh developmental that was the main reason we had uh the chairman and I had had had really voted uh to uh acquire uh that piece of property even though it was uh wasn't chicken and it wasn't fish in my opinion it was on a power line but there was some developmental um plans for it and it did have some value uh as this did uh so I'm I'm trying to find a way where um at least we can get you or or I talk to my colleagues up here about a direct expenditure like we did to preserve that Integrity uh and and follow the process all in the same same thing and here is what happened with that we had gotten the blessing of the 30 owners of the property it was a trust air owned it and their realtor had worked with us for two years trying to work it through the other processes and they were at the end of their patience understandably they wanted it to go for public good but they also had economic pressures and there was according to the realtor a developer right behind us and in fact he was he had told me shortly before our vote that that the developer was there so when we voted to buy the property using arpa funds and taking them from other arpa eligible projects that we had in the city in order to preserve this on an emergency sort of basis um at that point I turned to the realtor the vote was had we had a unanimous vote and I turned to the realtor and I said lose his number and he did thank you uh mayor thank you chairman quick question would you be able to to join and and work with me uh or work with Council if they so desire uh to apply those same standards that that we applied and that we voted for with the loop property when it came to uh direct expenditures um would would you be open to um uh supporting that as a possible Avenue to maybe get them started and a maybe a first phase where we don't where we kind of keep them going with this and until they get the rest of their paperwork in or we don't want to go there with this one no I think I think it's completely different if you're talking about the loop uh purchase in Orman Beach um I I don't equate the the two um what I think we need and maybe Mr Santiago was going to do it we we have three options here we can vote to approve it as is we could vote to deny it or we could vote to move this to another cyle to give them the time to do it I I don't think that this is the time to change process in Midstream and debate whether or not the rule should be followed especially since we require Daytona Beach to follow the rules and and now we're being asked to um set that aside I want this project to pass I want it to pass by following um following the rules and chairman I I agree with you on on that I just want us to be consistent um I do too you know um if it if it fits a a political agenda at a at a time I don't want to bend the rules in one thing and then come up with a like situation uh in the future and and bend them again that's why I'm putting all of us kind of on the spot U just for to protect the Integrity in the future um that we can't pick and choose and like I said before what's good for the goose it's got to be good for the gander and now I'll support whatever Direction This Council likes to go I if I may two two points of clarification just for council's decision-making process is um so the the separate program is called the emergency acquisition and stabilization program which means the threshold is that it's an imminent danger of being lost so in this case the Orman Loop property was going to be built on if it wasn't acquired so it met that threshold um in terms of the of getting money from number one the committee who also vetted this project and um the council's in um the council's portion through the direct County expenditure program which the the referendum that puts I'm sorry the resolution that put the referendum on the ballot says the direct County expenditure can be used for um Counting projects it has to be used for counting projects it doesn't contemplate it being used for others now that's certainly res um you know as a policy decision okay thank you uh councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman um I I think we kind of see the writing on the wall here where we're at today on this particular topic um I I'm very supportive of the project I was there when they did the groundbreaking or the opening of it to to visit it to see what the future potential of it is going to be and very excited I think uh the Barry has been u a leader in our County in many areas in um creating a vision that many can uh support however I do not want to see a no vote come down on this um for the city of the berry I think um it's probably more appropriate to temporarily postpone it to the October cycle and and make sure that our staff lends whatever support they can to make sure that it's uh ready for the next cycle I'm sorry April or October I believe it was October cycle didn't you say that Brad so our annual cycle um begins in September with a mandatory meeting the technical application due in October and we have typically staff a month to give feedback so the final due is is in December and then award typically in February or March so it'll be more appropriate for me to say December yes but so that is the annual cycle I'm talking about the mid cycle the next the mid cycle yes so the cycle that is being proposed a Sol as a solution by your advisory committee would be next month the mandatory meeting the technical review in June and then award yes and in October I believe is which would be based on the timeline I'm sorry I so if they can't meet that timeline then they will probably roll over into the next cycle October yes sir I I I wanted to throw it out there to see what the council thinks on that instead of a no vote we can just temporally postpone it I I think that's wise I still move you're making the motion to move it to the next cycle temporarily postpone it yes oh to temporarily postpone it to the next cycle oh we don't have joh other than that motion we don't have a motion to for this no we don't can we we don't have a midcycle yet good point good point motion to approve a midcycle echo uh uh Echo midcycle assessment uh to allow anybody anybody that's prepared second for mid cycle and that that would also include Daytona's Jackie anybody anybody could have eight or nine of them if if people are shovel ready for October and they can come in mid cycle uh Brad's got his work cut out for him not just two not just four about anybody so midcycle assessment in in accordance with Brad's previous comments andair that was a second by Kent for that mid cycle uh motion is made by Jake Johansson second by Vice chair Troy Kent to move uh this to uh no to create a mid cycle create a mid cycle that's it to to create a mid cycle um and not just for DeBerry and Jackie Robinson but but anybody that's uh prepared and ready at that time uh discussion questions all in favor say I I any opposed Mr chairman David before just so I was just going to ask you because I heard what you were saying the only hesitation I have was your comment when you said sort of sounded like staff was going to have to make sure that it worked this shouldn't be encumbered upon staff the Barry needs to make sure it works and then I'm going to Second it I'll clarify that Mr chair go ahead um I move to temporal postponed a de Barry application to the newly created midcycle to address Mr Troy's comment it's just more of a direction staff you know lend any County support that we can that's appropriate second that motion is made by David Santiago and the second by Troy Kent which moves to Barry to that cycle all in any questions debate all in favor say I I any opposed you're very smart no he's not and that motion also carries 7 to zero that was the end of the applicants correct yes sir so as a point of clarification just for we're committed look you you've got commun we're Community Services we're committed to our community to deliver these projects and help them be success uccessful their application as it stands now is is not does not have the requirements so we would ask them in that cycle to reapply with the new cut and paste with the new documents or supplement their current application it won't be just moving the application because it's deficient right now is that okay yeah well yes you're going to work with Deber abut get them across the line thank you thank you Carmen and mayor Shaz at 11:28 we're already on item three um me give just a few minutes here to change the players in the room Laura you're doing this one this is item three is ordinance 20248 an ordinance adding Chapter 58 Article 5 medical provider leans and establishing for certain medical providers an entitlement to leans for certain outstanding charges Laura Coleman Laura Coleman Laura Coleman assistant County attorney and yes that's quite a title thank you Mr chair um before you for item three is ordinance 20248 um this is a the medical Pro provider ordinance that way we've come before you before for some directions so you're familiar with this concept uh but just to give you a quick reminder the the point of this ordance is to create lean rights for certain medical providers in very limited circumstances um namely it applies to charitable hospitals to special taxing districts operating hospitals into County EMS it's not across the board for all medical providers it's in these specific situations where those charitable and not for-profit uh interest in the County's uh interest in that same population are served um it also only applies when a patient doesn't pay their bills so this is not something that attaches naturally these are for services that are actually rendered and then the patient leaves and then they collect some sort of monetary award um the lean does not apply to houses to wages to their own insurance proceeds it only applies to monetary judgments to to settlements to Legal claims so again a very specific subset of claims that we're talking about here um and again it also only applies when the injuries that re that NE necessitated the care were caused by a third party Tor feaser so generally speaking what we mean when we say that are automobile accidents that's almost always the circumstance uh your agenda item contains a memo that goes through some of the background and highlights some of the the items in the ordinance but just a couple more things to call to your attention um the ordinance does prescribe some limitations on the lean amount itself it also provides an informal review process if the patient has questions about the lean itself like the accuracy or or those the the actual amount of the the lean it also includes the ability for a court or a a adjudication process or an adjudicator excuse me an arbitrator if I can speak for an arbitrator or a judge to reduce the actual lean amount uh in make it an equitable share if the lean is not large excuse me if the recovery is not large enough to cover the lean and the damages and there's also a prevailing party's attorney fees provision in there um I am certainly happy to answer any questions you have Additionally the Halifax team uh Halifax Health is in the room today they have been with me every step of the way while crafting this ordinance and I'm sure they are more than happy to answer any questions or provide any thoughts if you would like that yes and we do have uh four people who want to speak to this item uh Matt Reinhard just a quick this is what we visited before correct ran away too fast yes sir this is we've come before you and sought Direction uh so you are familiar with this concept it has changed a little bit but the essentials are all the same okay um knowing that we still have public to to speak I'll make a motion to approve second motion to approve item three by uh councilman Reinhardt and the second is by councilman Santiago um I'm going to call the since nobody's up on the board right now to speak uh I'll call the members of the public that are here um Tim Steck and good morning uh morning chair morning everybody here my name is Dr Tim stepick I'm a Chiropractic physician for the last 12 years in Bia County and a third generation resident of Valia County and uh my address is in new samna beach and my practice is Edgewater 315 North Ridgewood Avenue in Edgewater out of respect of your time here we had a group of doctors that came uh I have over 30 names on the list here but many of them had to get back to work because we're all trying to provide for our families and take care of our patients um so we just assigned three speakers to speak on on our behalf of the doctors and uh offices in the county um so I just wanted to briefly speak on the so actually anyone that is still here please stand up or raise your hand that's opposing the hospital bill if you could raise your hand or stand up so everyone can see you thank you so I'm going to speak on the negative impacts this that this will have on the patient um and the citizens of Valia County um first of all it will not affect everybody right so there's three demographics that it won't affect it won't affect the low-income individuals because they have Medicaid it won't affect the seniors because they have Medicare and it won't affect the workers that have really good health insurance but there is another demographic that it will affect and that is those who have high deductible insurances um I'm one of those individuals I don't have insurance health insurance uh so no insurance or high high deductible health insurance this will affect them because um when they go to the hospital and the hospitals are already being paid if it's an auto accident case they're being paid four times what they would normally receive from Medicare and 10 times what they would receive from Medicaid so they are already being paid above and beyond what they would normally receive for these automobile accident cases um so these individuals like myself is going to be effective because we won't be able to receive post hosp care if there's a lean and the hospital has the lean doctors are not going to accept cases like this and work on a lean themselves if they know they're going to be paid Pennies on the dollar because the hospital has the lean and so it's going to affect individuals like myself a lot of other individuals in the county because of that especially the patients and uh we're here to serve the patients we're here to serve our community that's who we want to help we want to make sure that they have the follow-up care that is needed it's not about um you you know hospitals do a good job but our job is to help build them back after they've been injured and um so I thank you guys for your time appreciate all you do and for your service um but I want to say we're opposed to this hospital bill for that reason thank you Leonard Roman thank you uh good morning chair Brower and the council members uh I'm Dr Lenny Rolan I'm the owner and one of the chiropract physicians at Wellspring Health uh we have three office locations in Belia County including our Flagship office in Orange City uh which has been treating and employing County residents from the same location for over 40 years I'm going to speak briefly on the unintended consequences of the ordinance including an increase in prescription drugs generally and opioids specifically uh I know you must be thinking it's probably a big leap here from a hospital lean ordinance to opioids but give me a second to explain uh as Dr stepick touched on um it is uh it it's basically the UN uninsured and some of the underinsured bluecollar workers who this ordinance is going to hurt the most the same group of workers makes up a significant number of those who choose chiropractic care after their accidents if this ordinance passes they will no longer be able to obtain chiropractic care after their accident because they won't be able to afford it nor Is it feasible for us as providers to treat them for free or for pennies on the dollar these folks will have to they have to work to survive and if they are suffering from ongoing aches and pains they will have to resort to medications to get through their day because Outpatient Care will be out of reach these injured accident victims will have to Circle back to the ER or the hospital every time they are in pain from these injuries which drives up the overall cost of care while ERS are well equipped to handle these imminent life-threatening injuries they are ill equipped to handle ongoing follow-up care this opens the door to self-medicating with nids alcohol or other illicit drugs or to long-term physician prescribed drugs including muscle relaxers sleep aids and ultimately opioids and its derivatives according to a 2022 Florida highway safety report Florida has averaged 380,000 accidents per year over the last 3 years that includes 644,000 drivers and an Untold number of passengers our County ranks 10th in the state of 67 counties for the amount of accidents needless to say we see a lot of accident victims each year as the 10th highest ranked County this is not a good ordinance it's not good for independent Physician Offices or imaging centers it's not good for the accident victims and it's not good for your constituency at large please vote no on this Pro proposed ordinance thank you Dr Lester Carrera good morning chair Brower my name is Dr Lester Carrero and I'm a chiropractic physici and have served this County for the past 18 years are located in 1948 Saxon Boulevard in Delona Florida I'm going to speak briefly with regards to this ordinance the um healthare as healthc care professional there are only nine counties out of 67 counties that have similar versions of this Hospital lean ordinance this ordinance creates favoritism for certain providers all you have to do is just read the title of this agenda and I quote establishing for certain medical providers an entitlement this ordinance is not more than an entitlement and I know that the hospitals will come back and say oh this is to support the facilities that are non for-profit but let me just be clear of something here their CEOs make millions and then the same name of profit a nonprofit their packages exceed their the packages that they're going to have as Retirement they're going to exceed a lot more than what we will ever see in our lives okay we're not asking for anything other than to keep the Playfield equal like you said before if it's good for the goose it's good for the ganders it's good for everybody the Story of All of Us Miss Jane had an accident due to a negligent driver she ended up being transported to the hospital in an ambulance to later being released and told to see her primary care physician Hospital exhausted all her money we as Physicians then come back we have to take care of Miss Jane and not get paid we are the ones trying to get Miss Jane back to work work this ordinance makes it much harder for us to be able to help please vote no for this ordinance thank you Tom Caldwell is it a l or a c is Tom here I am a lawyer uh in town been in Daytona Beach for 30 years and I am not uh I am sympathetic to Halifax's cause uh I understand their mission in this community my grandfather died there in 1958 I was born there in 1966 my grandmother died in 20 2001 and my mother in 2020 so I understand their mission here but this lean it is actually redundant there is a mechanism already in place under our ethical standards um it is actually five SL 1.1 in our Florida ethical guide lawyers cannot willy-nilly decide to carve up where the money goes if there's a dispute we have an ethical obligation to actually inter plead that money we have a lot of cases where there's not enough coverage to make the person whole and when that's the case we just can't carve up the money Halifax I think should know that um one other thing I do want to point out and this is I don't want to cast dispersions but obviously Halifax shouldn't have anybody do their bidding on the board this public policy should when we pass ordinances they should be rooted in sound public policy we know that should be for the public good I'm not an Ethics lawyer I'm a trial lawyer but we do know that councilman Santiago was paid from his affidavit at least in 2022 which was the last affidavit that was filed about $120,000 from a law firm called kadney pass or fast pardon me we also know and and uh we know that from his financial ID David we also know that kadney pass pardon me fast has represented Halifax in the past and still does they're out of Sunrise Florida not sure why that's the case but it it it is interesting anyway to think about now again um I understand that people go into Consulting work after their representatives which he was but it's it does make an interesting note again these ordinances should be rooted in sound public policy they shouldn't be a feather in someone's Consulting C and so I agree with the chiropractors in terms of what they said it doesn't affect us at all I hope you'll consider thank you uh councilman Santiago well I'll tell you I pressed my button before my name name was called out so I figur I got a little bit more to say um I think first let me just stick to the to the merits of the of the ordinance Mr chairman the ordinance isn't just a Halifax Bill the ordinance and this is important for the public to know the ordinance allows for our Evac your Evac program that is tax funded to collect money back for services that they've provided what often happens is you get these these settlements in these cases and then often times they neglect paying you your taxpayer funded Evac back all right and what happens is and you know I wasn't planning to be this aggressive but I'll turn turn it up a notch it goes to paying the 100 Billboards that we have along up and long eye for and we know what most of those Billboards look like they're not for social services or helping people they're about profit for others so that being said the ordinance um colleagues it allows us to collect our monies back that's really what it is and certain nonprofits that was mentioned I don't even know if I should address the comments um you know Halifax is here if they want to address that I I'll just say that they're fabricated and I stand behind my work councilman Dempsey can I ask attorney calwell to come back up please yes sir attorney calwell oh calwell I'm sorry looking for C it's close to Coleman abely um attorney Coldwell I I've been here practicing law for 34 years I've heard of your name I don't think I know you personally but I've heard good things about you um I used to do insurance defense for State Farm I've done plaintiff's work and I've stood in your shoes and the minute I could get out of it I did I just do blue collar law now criminal and family but maybe you could give me some clle uh on this back when I was doing plaintiff's work the way a case would typically unfold and correct me if I'm wrong is the ladies in a car wreck she goes to the hospital to the emergency room she's told to go see her General treating phys I then they send her off for chiropractic care and all this time she's getting treatment treatment treatment treatment and well she's trying to settle with her insurance company either through her attorney or herself is that all correct so far yes okay so if the hos if let's just say there's $100,000 in available Insurance okay is what you're saying that if the hospital were to have a lean they would have first dibs on 100 % of that $100,000 that is that is correct Mr if you could please speak into the microphone sorry that is correct okay so let's say you go to the ER you're an ICU for a couple days and then your do everybody takes care of you thank God you make it then you're going to chiropractors and after care if the hospital says our bills 100,000 and all the coverage is 100,000 they take all of it correct that is correct and what's left for these guys who are continuing to treat this lady to get her back to health the physical therapy the rehab all that stuff there's nothing for them to get paid from correct zero right absent health insurance that they would take there is zero correct and also just let me point out under the PIP statute and I am not anti- Halifax I like Hala the one time I ever had a health issue I went to Halifax was taken from St Vincent in Jacksonville to a I know the CEO friends with him not anti-h Halifax like Halifax there is already specialized treatment under the PIP statute that favors hospitals and I can see Mr Santiago smirking but it is already there okay so and I remember okay so let's say it takes six months to settle up the insurance claim and so you have all these injuries and it takes six months to get their I their independent Medicals everything has to get negotiated finally at the end of the day there's 100,000 is it part of your job as a plaintiff's attorney you have to ensure that all these medical providers not just the hospital not just the first 10 days of treaters but everybody over the six-month recovery program gets paid and paid fairly is that right you have an ethical obligation yes it is 5- 1.1 e so all not only these providers but the hospital so when you're negotiating because I've negotiated medical leans in the past and isn't it fair that what you do is you call the hospital and say hey we know my client owes you 100,000 but she's not getting enough to cover all our bills will you accept 40,000 and then you call the chiropractors and say okay we know your bill is 20,000 but will you take 8,000 and down the line to all providers that have gotten her recovery is that right that that is right councilman and if this lean is imposed the hospital gets to take their whole 100,000 and leave all the subsequent providers with nothing that is that is correct including the injured plain of who by the way didn't ask to be in this situation right yes this is not and they're not a well oil Lobby it hasn't happened to most of them yet so they can't hear to speak for themselves nothing's changed in the last 30 years then as far as settling person this is why I'm against this guys I feel the same way about Halifax because they save lives initially but these are the guys that restore people back to health and if we just let Halifax take the lon share of whatever they decide their bill is and give them they have no there's nothing to negotiate anymore then right because they've got the lean they have a super lean they have yes so they have nothing to negotiate be fair to everybody in the recovery process I think we have to turn this down deny this so that everybody has a fair shake at at the Apple whatever that amount of available insurance is they should all have access to it there's already a mechanism as well nothing strikes fear in the heart of a lawyer than getting a letter from the Florida bar far more powerful than a lawsuit yes sir especially when they're tied to a rock and thrown through your window right that's that's right yeah guys that's why I'm against this this is this is not fair to everybody involved in the recovery process this only favors the initial provider of treatment but we got to take care of the guys who deal with the people for a much longer basis over a longer length of time so that's why I'm strongly against it nothing solid effects before I call on the the other council members would like to speak Laura Coleman I've sense that you uh you're good okay uh Vice chair Kent thank you um attorney Coleman and uh Dyer is everything that councilman Dempsey and I apologize what's the attorney's name cwell cwell is everything they said was it accurate I would like to um just point out that there is a provision and I think I went over it in my slide um there's a provision in this ordinance that allows for an equitable reduction in the lean amount by a judge by an arbitration proceeding or by settlement of the parties so the exact same discussion that that um councilman Dempsey was referencing where you know those numbers can shift as the recovery number is established that still happens and actually this ordinance allows uh for it it's preserves the ability of a judge to do that as well if it is a an a judgment itself as opposed to a settlement so the um the ability of that number to if if the total number collected by the patient is not enough to cover everybody's claims and their own damages then that lean number will be reduced or can be reduced if a judge finds it appropriate as well and will that Auto automatically go to a judge and a judge a judge will make that decision and here's my question my reasoning behind that question my parents are elderly and I think about my grandmother when she was alive if she got a bill she paid it no ifs and that's why they that's why these these I believe it's predatory sometimes companies send bills to these individuals and they pay it it's like Grandma you have insurance you shouldn't have paid that and then the insurance company says well we're not going to give you 100% of that money back cuz we never would have paid 100% of that that's not how this works and so my my concern now is you're saying well a judge can do that but does that automatically go to a judge and the judge says that and then these individuals are left out of it yeah this is I think that's a couple couple different scenarios that you're talking about all at once so to be clear as well the lean amount is restricted in what it can be um in a case where someone is insured it has to be the contracted insurance rate basically uh where someone is not insured it has to be a reasonable amount for fees um that reasonableness can of course be challenged in law it can be challenged in this informal review process that's created in the ordinance um as far as whether it goes automatically to a judge no of course not there there's not an an automatic you know Court proceeding every time someone is injured right um but the same process that that the attorney calwell spoke about before where there's kind of a negotiation when there is a plaintiff's attorney involved that can continue to happen and do keep in mind as well this is a process this lean only really applies when there is a third party who's caused this injury which again is is applicable what these gentlemen are talking about behind me um so when a when another insurance company another party becomes involved so it's not simply if you go to the hospital and you don't pay your bill this attaches that is not the situation this is for those monetary Awards so I took my first breath at Halifax Hospital my son took his first breath at Halifax Hospital I've I've got a real love for the place for those reasons alone but with a yes or no did everything Don Dempsey say and attorney cwell say was that accurate I think that the ordinance allows for that Equitable reduction so no sir I don't believe that Halifax would necessarily take all of the limited recovery amount Council I'm going to need more and I'll tell you why just because one of the reasons I love local government I love this is you come in reading the material thinking one thing you listen to your colleague and you start thinking something else I'm not saying the gentlemen behind you are the experts but they're certainly shaking their head no to the things that you're shaking your head yes to about so I look forward to hearing your comments gentlemen and I'm certain as well if you'd like to talk to Halifax about their process of of that reduction kind of as it operates without the ordinance I'm sure they'd be happy to talk about that as well yeah and I just to clarify Mrs Coleman can correct me the language he's referring to specifically on page 3-7 58- 132 of the ordinance correct yes it's an equable share the lean amount may be reduced to a fair and Equitable share of the patient's limited recovery and then it goes on from there okay uh councilman Joe Hanson um we've we've talked a lot here about uh Equity I guess I heard the term but um um Laura wait so so real quick this usually involves a always involves a third party and usually an attorney yes yes sir yep so that's fair we're we're we're talking about judgments where a lot of money is put out either by the insurance company or or got by the attorney who gets a percentage of that yes and then and then leaves the person who got hurt to fend for themselves with the $400,000 which is on the billboard um and so so that $400,000 doesn't doesn't go far enough is what we're saying and and by the way I've I've not been addicted to opioids but I have been addicted to chiropractors thank you very much um uh it's it's hard crack to get away from but but how often do attorneys go well I feel sorry for you um I'd like to give back some of that money to help you pay your Chiro fee or or do they walk away here here we're we're talking about Equity but it seems like at the end of the day it's the attorneys that are always smiling I'm sorry Don I'm so sorry but but they're they're on those Billboards smiling just like the other person you know the the the award is getting $400,000 but the attorney's like I got six so um my my thought is is is I I don't think you can always resolve this um with Equitable um money unless unless we sue for more and get more and and then pay more so I I don't know how to resolve this and and the other thing that they got brought up is you know um Miss Debbie didn't ask for this well in blushi County we all know we can't we can't ensure for for all risks we cannot insure for all risks everybody's got flood insurance that couldn't get their flood damage paid for everybody's got wind insurance and didn't get new roofs you just there's there's always stipulations for this so um I don't I don't know if if it's our responsibility um we can work toward it we can work together but I don't know if we can make everybody hold you lose a leg you ain't getting back so um I I I just I want to make as many people whole as I can and and I I believe that that are nonprofit hospitals I'm not going to name I wasn't born anywhere around here but that they work hard to make this work and they're just looking for ways that that Jimmy who just made a couple million do off of some insurance company doesn't run away with $8 million and while while some nonprofit is sitting here losing losing money or having to not get better Services because they can't they have to pay that bill out of their pocket so um I'm kind of torn here uh and and I I think it's important that we we pay our like like Mr Kent said we pay our bills so that's what I said Thank You councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman and Jake I I agree with where you're going there um you know is it our role to make everyone Equitable I I don't think that's the case and and let's not lose the fact that our Evac would benefit from this right so this is this was really where the motive came from to to discuss this to recover there but I I want to ask if Halifax is willing to answer a question if you can come up Mr chair that's okay if you're familiar with the ordinance and I hope you are that's being proposed here can you uh explain for my friend Troy and others here on how that piece would play out uh some of the dialogue that they've had please introduce yourself hi Kelly quch I'm the um Chief legal officer of Halifax Health I've been working on this with you all since 2021 and I appreciate that and Laura Coleman has been with us all the way along I do want you to know we also collaborated with some plaintiff's attorneys namely Steve Sans who had objected back in 2014 and even Josh Wagner in the last year or two and the goal was to keep kind of things somewhat status quo you know we had a special law in Florida for leans from 1953 to 2014 2016 or so and so we all have worked under the lean environment and it works um it's mostly done in negotiations just like um we were talking about we have someone at our at our hospital that does that all day long she's negotiating with the lawyers and and the other providers um and once we were unable to stop filing leans our last year filing leans at the hospital was 2016 we filed about 2300 leans so 2,300 cases with insurance proceeds um we haven't been able to file lean since but we still negotiate with those attorneys that follow those ethical rules they're about a thousand a year or so that we still communicate with but we believe there are, 1500 to 2,000 claims a year that we are not at the table and the point of this lean for us is to have a piece of paper that gets us to the table to have those negotiations this is not about taking from other providers we get that we're all in this business of getting people out of the hospital and back on their feet we are trying to just continue the status quo but come to the table on what we believe to be about 2,000 claims a year that we are missing out on so what we're asking is let us come to the table let us continue this this this process we've had in place since 1953 where we do negotiate we go down the line we work with the attorneys we settle for far less far less than we've uh spent in costs in in taking care of that patient but it allows us to recover something and that allows us to continue the service so you don't take 100% Oh no you're not looking for 100% no sir okay um Mr chair one moment I'm contemplating where I asked this question because I I'm going to give this person credibility have I ever done any work for Halifax you not that I'm aware of never any contract work like that no and every contract comes from my office okay you just goes for you office I've never done any work there correct thank you very much I was contemplating whether I give credibility because because it's quite the opposite my time in the legislature I did more work with chiropractors and the trial lawyers in my entire eight years so he obviously did not do his proper research correct um that's it for me now Mr chair councilman Robbins um Miss Coleman our attorney yes sir in some of the language uh Miss Coleman it said um about Provisions is Provisions a guarantee I'm not entirely certain sure what you're asking about when I say that um there's a provision for you know oh yes sir okay is there there's obviously flexibility it's not a guarantee like a set amount or a set percent am I wording this kind of Equitable reduction correct so I'm sorry when I'm saying provision I mean there's a a portion of the ordinance that deals with that is all I'm talking about I think uh Mike mentioned earlier 58- 132 um the way that it's written it's a permissive standard if there is a law suit if there is a case if there is a judge if there is an adjudication if there is as Miss quiek was mentioning a negotiation and a settlement that is reached then there can be a reduction um it's kind of necessary to have that information in there because the the reduction in the lean amount can't occur in a court not not in the settlement but in a court can't actually change the numbers um without that being part of the ordinance if there is an ordinance that permits the lean so it's it's an important provision to have thanks and and what makes me a little uneasy of this and I'm like I I think we're all Halifax is a great partner but there's certain key words in here may be reduced that's not certain and it is not and and I could see you know for private sector guys and and uh who are a big part of this community as well that can be alarming because now they're on the hook for certain things and this is big dollars you know I don't expect anybody to work for free including Halifax including I don't want anybody to work for free can is there a way we can tailor this a little bit better where more people are are at the table to look at the language on this I know if it's something we can get with our state reps on or something where maybe look at a statute where there's more protections uh within this existing statute or if there's a better way to do this where everybody where everything like Mr demp said is is a little bit Fair because this it can appear where it's one it could be one-sided if that power is abused uh because there's no guarantee that they have to work with these folks there is no no guarantee um second is it true I heard some some comments earlier s to nine I forget what the exact number was uh counties in the State of Florida out a 67 counties uh adopted something like that is that somewhat accurate do we know I don't have the the current numbers with me today but it is it's it's a smaller abortion um I think AAA county is really kind of the the leader in this ordinance style of when they adopted theirs um just to be clear and Miss Qui mentioned this a minute ago I can't go back we we did have a special law in valua for years and years I think since 1953 um in 2012 there was a a Court ruling that basically said you know what you can't actually legislate this you can't put this in a special law uh you could you could have it in an ordinance but you can't put it in a special law U and so that's where the change happened was that Court decision so we had this law we still have the law on the books the special law still EX exist but that court case really called into question the ability to to use that any longer so the idea was that this ordinance would sort of put back into place the the Paradigm that already existed when the special law was usable but to do so in a way that the courts believe is constitutionally appropriate why would you think only seven or nine however many count why would you think there'd be such um a low number of counties that that that maybe adopted this thought it was kosher I mean think I think it just depends on on how the the counties want to proceed but I also would say that the the court case that changed the special laws that said you probably can't use those any longer that was in 2012 so it only has been you know about 12 12 years since that happened and sometimes ordinances do take a while to percolate so I I can't really speak to other counties um and why they do or don't have it but I I would Hazard a guess that some of the special laws that used to be on the books haven't been replaced yet thank you chair may I speak to or can we speak to the the one gentleman doctor that came up first I'm sorry sir I forgot your name it's Tim stepick Dr Tim Steck uh Tim um in your professional opinion and just to be fair here is there a middle ground that can be reached on this where where we can at a local level ensure that that you know our Evac you know and our tax dollars are recovered that you guys are op you know not working for free and that U and Halifax is also uh has a you know somewhat of C can we all come together on this see if there's a guarantee that we can make all of us whole I mean is that even possible I don't I'm not an expert in this I'm just asking I think that's probably always possible right maybe maybe not maybe not you guys see that all the time you know that's that's your job and you guys have tough decisions when it comes to that type of stuff but um can we come to a a middle ground I guess is the question um I think it's there I think it's there already they're getting paid you know the the system is working as how it's supposed to work and they're already getting the settlements when there's a settlement with an attorney right they're already in that discussion and all this does is it makes sure that they like you said that language that's really concerning is May right well what if they decide not to what if they decide to take all the payment and then there's nothing left for the for the patient or for us you know it it's just very concerning as far as how that goes so how it's working now I don't see a need necessarily to change as do um you know 60 other counties in Florida you know there's a very small minority that are are are doing that and so concern for for us there's there's two it's the patient making sure that they're going to be able to um have the proper care and then it's for us to make sure that we can you know pay our staff and and take care of these people so um I think it's already there I don't see the need you know why is there a need for a change if it's already working and she said that um not sure the the CFO or Clo's name but she said well it's for the you know majority it's working it works fine okay and so yeah thank you that's my opinion Council I'm having a tough time with this be be honest with you um I don't I don't know what the right answer is I feel like uh any decision may not be the right decision and uh I don't I don't have an answer for you right now Mr Robbins if I may can I clarify what one answer that I gave that I I don't think I understood your question until some of your follow-ups with regard to the permissive and the May and the provision there I think you were asking me specifically about that now I understand your question just to be clear the the May that we've been talking about in that reduction portion of the ordinance that would apply to a judge choosing if they did wanted or did not want to change the lean amount or an arbitrator in an arbitration proceeding or an agreement by the parties that's all the parties that are involved that would be they could decide to reduce it they don't have to we can't make parties decide what they're going to do together and we're certainly not able to tell a judge they have to reduce something so that's that's where the May comes in it's a court proceeding an arbitration or that mutual agreement of the parties in Miss Coleman in this ordinance are we allowed to put a threshold instead of uh being able to take 100% could it be 50% could it be 40% is that so I think where the threshold comes in really is that the actual amount of the lean itself has to be for actual outstanding charges they can't just pick a number um and that the the amount of the outstanding charges again is either at for an insured patient is at more or less the contracted insurance rate and for a uninsured patient there is it's harder to it's harder to pin that number down because there's not a standard um but it has to be reasonable and the reasonableness can be challenged in a myriad of ways okay thank you councilman Dempsey I'd like to get attorney calwell back up here again then I'm making him work for his [Laughter] money I'm jealous of plaintiff's lawyers um okay and Mr coell let me just because Mr Johansson thinks that these plaintiff's attorneys all live on you know multi-million dollar homes with big yachts and all that stuff how often do you cut your fees when settling a case almost every time okay and is almost every single time isn't it true you don't get paid a dime until all the doctors and the hospitals and everybody else gets paid and then you take your cut you get paid after they well we actually get our cut off the top we don't settle the case until we negotiated all of the bills and and I recognize some plain of lawyers have probably brought us to this state because we haven't complied ethically they've just been cutting out the hospital and that's ethically impermissible and so I recognize some of the plan of SP probably brought us here you know but I can name everybody at Halifax at the legal department uh there's Gail and Stacy that I work with almost on a daily basis because we follow and most lawyers do by the way they don't they call up the hospital and they get the bill we negotiate it quickly and and by the way Halifax hasn't fallen down since 2012 when shans came out the shans versus Mercury decision that ruled that the special act uh was unconstitutional but it also rulle that you can do it by ordinance and that was in that was the Supreme Court case and what percentage of your cases would you say have no court intervention whatsoever the vast majority of these lean cases and by the way I I do need to add this if we were going to challenge the lean that is another lawsuit right that is another lawsuit adding another complexity to this situation right so with cost associated with that is it is it fair to say your typical personal injury case involves the accident the hospital treating the the chiropr rors and the follow-up providers treat the person you as their attorney the plaintiff's attorney is negotiating you call the hospital you get you finally work with the adjuster from the insurance company you work out a settlement amount sometimes policy limits let's say 100,000 then you call these guys up in the hospital and say hey my client's settling for a lot less than she's entitled to will you take less than what you feel you're entitled to and they all typically work with you correct we have to do that I want to just make a comment over here I can't not sure which council member but it we don't take our fee and then leave the client to address their medical bills ethically that would be impermissible once we have notice of a bill we have to negotiate those bills because they have a the third party the medical provider has an interest in the case pursuant again to 5- 1.1 e and so we have to take that into account so then you negotiate you you negotiate with the adjuster policy limits 100 Grand or whatever you can negotiate with then you negotiate with the hospital and the after providers then is it fair to say you just reach an agreement sign the settlement with the insurance company and distribute the money to the medical providers the hospital and then yourself and you're done that's accurate and the settlement agreement has each has where every penny is going that settlement statement is on there or that's on the settlement statement to including to the providers now if and so at no point in your typical car case is there Court intervention under a lot of scenarios that's correct unless we have to file suit right we can't agree with the carrier and if that's the case we we correct but it's still fair to say the majority of the cases do not involve Court intervention yeah may maybe unfortunately insurance companies have you know taken aggressive scans which they can do they're they're able to do that we don't expect them to roll over um and so more and more cases are getting filed on um so if one provider the hospital had all all the goods if they had all the money right here $100,000 right here and then they said well we might give this doctor here a little there's here's 20 bucks or here's 20 bucks for you but we're keeping the rest then you have to go to court we have to file a lawsuit it's not yes it's not just and and typically what happens is when entities are empowered right when any entity is empowered they're not going to say well I would be saying well it's arbitrated well we don't arbitrate it you have to file lawsuit we know that creates another hurdle then we got to talk to the client again there's an added complexity here right with this lean statute and that apparently this that's what this ordinance is proposing well if you don't like what we're going to give you back SE us correct and how often do you think realistically that's going to be feasible to say okay okay I mean the courts are clogged up now as it is right that that is that is accurate and and it adds this this bill would would potentially add you know we have to see how it plays out but would potentially add more litigation over these leans right now it is as long as everybody's reasonable it is really it works under our current system it worked 30 years ago for me is it still working it's it's it's still working now we we lawyers have to ethically abide by right right their guidelines and again I recognize as I was called yesterday to do this um you know we have we have to abide by our ethical guidelines and as long as we do that it works under its current state yes sir and that's all I have of this gentleman I I do have a followup thank you uh Mr calwell one of y'all one of you doctors you're a chiropractor is that right sir I am a chiropract and I forgot your name Dr Lester Carrero okay and you heard how what an important function chiropractors play in Aftercare even Mr Johansson acknowledge that that's correct do you concede when have you ever received a call from an attorney like Mr Caldwell asking you to cut your fee rates because of a limited settlement amount every day okay every day how often do you not get paid at all how often do you have to cut your fee we often have to say actually I have my billing specialist here and uh she always fighting with me because she's always saying that we're almost a non for-profit because we're always taking no money at all whatsoever and would you say the same applies to your cohorts down there with you that they've fees yep routinely we sometimes go with without getting paid at all and right now as we sit you're on an equal playing field negotiating with the hospitals correct and you're all buying for the same pot yes we are of settlement money if they would include the language would include us also in that same I would be fine with it no problem but it's it's exclusive and it's not inclusive right that's the problem because if it if it would include us I've had no problem no problem at all but you know you just keep in mind that we're also as chiropractors we also have medical doctors and there's also neurologists around here we're also imaging centers we're not only chiropractors right we're just chiropractors speaking now but as a chiropractor right now my clinic has medical doctors imaging centers laboratory also so I'm here speaking in behalf of everybody else not only chiropractors and you as well as on behalf of everybody else in your industry do you feel the way the system is now at least Works somewhat fairly solid okay so if it's not broke don't fix it type of thing come again if it's not broke don't fix it type of thing if it's not broken why fix it okay that's all thank you very very much that's all I have guys councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman Don you I love you but that seemed like a commercial to me by the way because I think the same question should be asked of the other side right me meaning Evac how much are you riding off how many times are you're not getting the money right a Halifax which I don't do any work for how often are you cutting your bills right how often are you not getting any money so the question is valid on both sides because I think they all under the current process works but my I hate to put you on the spot but I have a question about your process from Halifax Mr chair we I in the beginning um someone spoke and said that this is redundant I think that's the word that they use I wrote down how is this not redundant or redundant if that makes sense this dis ordinance I'm not sure that redundant would be the word I would use or not redundant but the way this lean is drafted is intentionally to keep the status quo the negotiations the work it out with everybody all be inclusive and have a circle and work it out what this does for Halifax is for the two-thirds of cases we think are happening where we're not at the table we're not in the inclusive Circle it allows us to get in the conversation it's being described that you are the 800B gorilla in these negotiations can you clarify that or debunk that it was we intentionally added language in this past year since we've seen you to address the very specific problem everybody's having it is that it's it the lean would be reduced a fair and Equitable share when there's not enough money to go around most of the time there's not enough money to go around it would be reduced a fair amount so they lay out all the people right every provider that's cared of Evac us chiropractors that's all on the table with the attorney and then one by one we all take a lesser amount in in proportion I mean the goal is proportionately Right Gail and Stacy they have been with us forever that's what they do it works and it works really well for the ones where we're at the table and that's what start cut problem I'm having is that for about 2third of the case cases that we think happen in valicia County where we care for that patient we're not at that table what what's being described then correct me if I'm wrong the ethical was described as the ethical trial lawyers are the ones that come and negotiate under this process right now they do and that's that's wonderful but there's a whole bucket that we that we aren't dealing with there are groups of lawyers in this County out of the county that represent patients in accidents and don't talk to us they call us they call Gail and they say you have a lean on the books she has to say no and they hang up the phone but this ordinance what it does is puts those other unethical I'll just describe him that way yes says that you have to Evac and Halifax and safety in a hospital has to be at the table to negotiate the fair share you need to talk to include Halifax in your negotiations and not to be repetitive so it just forces them to come to the table yes sir right and and not to be repetitive again but are there assurances and you or staff can clarify this in this ordinance that don't allow you to say I want 100% yes sir there can you elaborate on those assurances L ways there are a lot of ways a patient and his or her attorney can address the amount of the lean the amount of the charges the reasonableness there's a review with our office we're happy to go over it in case we have done something wrong to uh Mr cadwell's point we also don't want to go to litigation over this um I in my five years I've received one complaint for equitable distribution in uh the whole you know we have 100,000 visitors a year uh we don't we we don't litigate over these bills we accept a lower rate because we understand there's a limited bucket of money and everyone should get paid the patient should get paid too I mean we have a patient the attorneys the other providers and us in the first third I think that we said the first third that are negotiated are the individual that are against this bill are they being short changed or do they feel they being I don't want to speak for them but they're saying to me the system isn't broken so I'm believing that everyone's getting paid on the ones that we're at the table we're part not broken for the first third it shouldn't be broken for the second third if we put you at the table we just want to come to the table okay final question I think for a point of clarification is it a false statement to say that you are at the driver's table to take the entire money in this and Evac yes because it is a false statement because it clarifies fair share correct it's an it's the words are fair and Equitable share and there in lies the words colleagues right I know we can say Dooms scenarios but there are experts that know how to read these things they're going to analyze it they're going to know how to work with it and our ordinance proposed ordinance says fair share now I I am because I'm the fair I'm the guy to try to often and try to figure out a way to um make things more palatable I'm open to see if we can find additional language I think Danny was going there I'm open to find additional language that can clarify that if that makes sense um I think it's already there I've seen these arguments in the past when we passed legislation in Tallahasse but um if if the if the council feels that maybe we can clarify that more and I I don't know if our staff can and all the others um tighten that up to give the council more Comfort I'm open to that is there a way we are more than happy to take it back and see if we can come up with some alternative language um I think the the language at the moment allows for a court or the parties or an arbitrator to to figure out what the bucket of money looks like and who's got claims and for what and how much and kind of make that determination themselves um if we get more detailed it it makes it more detailed but I don't I don't know that it makes it more more Equitable but we can certainly come up with alternative language as Council would like us to yeah it's enough it's enough for me because I get how that process works right um and not not to disparage any of my colleagues please I don't want mean to do that um but I'm open to it if it brings Comfort to some of my colleagues for clarity um to ensure that it's a fair and Equitable process right and that's often going to be determined by a judge possibly right if if the parties can't agree if they can't agree behind the scenes and you're right most cases don't go to the court if the parties can't agree behind the scenes which it seems like in the I'll describe as the first third of these cases right that they described it's been happening for years why couldn't it happen for the other two it just forces it just puts them this ordinance just puts the other two-thirds on notice that you have to talk to Evac that you have to talk to Halifax if they're pending bills that's what but the ordinance forces them to the table right well may clarify I I'm you're not but anyway I'm done Mr okay Laura I'm sorry how how does this uh benefit Evac this uh provides Evac the same kind of claim that it would for any of our not for-profit entities operating hospitals or any of our special tasking districts operating hospitals so it is again another way to get to the table um I I know we have folks in our uh Evac billing EXC me our EMS billing that probably give all the numbers but you know we write off quite a bit as well uh so this I we'll have to see how we implement it as a county of course it will cost staff time and an effort in a whole another process if we determine that it's appropriate to start F filing these leans um but to have them is a claim um you know we I I yeah we we'll be in the same position as the other entities that are able to do this and again I think it's important to keep that in mind as well when we're talking about inclusive or exclusive who you're looking at that this applies to is County EMS not for-profits that operate charitable hospitals and specially special taxing districts who are units of excuse me special units of local government that operate these same hospitals so these are charitable Endeavors or the County government itself which of course we we're not out to make a profit on our EMS so so right now you're saying that Evac has no recourse somebody can't pay we Rite it off this will allow us to uh to be part of this lean if they get a settlement from uh from the court from then we can get a piece and who determines how much of a piece do we get right yeah so we are we have the same recourse that anyone else would have that would have a claim for unpaid bills we could file a lawsuit um we could you know we could reach out to those attorneys and ask to be part of the negotiation uh realistically that that doesn't get us very far and most of the time your Evac bills I think it's fair to say are probably below the threshold that I shouldn't I shouldn't speak to that the numbers might not justify seeking legal recourse um and so the lean gives us an option that we don't have now to be part of those negotiations okay and as far as who determines what that is the the lean amount again is is the charge so the exact same charge that we send as a bill is the lean amount it doesn't get higher in this case it it is just a lean for that build amount okay I think where we're going here is that Mr Santiago is right that we probably need to tighten this up something although I this is the second or third time it's been here I'd like to uh get it settled but one more question for Halifax um the reason I just said that is because that it was a little bit confusing as you spoke you I thought that you all the doctors said that systems fine don't mess with it I thought that you had said you are negotiating now you you don't take 100% you're you're at the table and then you said very clearly you're not at the table so let me clarify how is that it's hard to know because the last year we filed leans was 2016 and there's been growth and in 2016 we hired about 2300 leans so if you fast forward there's let's say there's 3,000 or so lean a bu events accidents in a calendar year right now we're talking to about a thousand of them we no lean required the attorney's call we negotiate we we and and the process works as explained for those the for the group that you know found it to be the Mr calwell for yes uh I um it it is it is so then we believe there's 1500 to 2,000 accidents happening insurance proceeds happening that we are not at the table because they don't have we don't they don't have to talk talk to us because there's no lean law or ordinance on the books anymore and so we are excluded from what we believe to be you know I don't know 1,500 to 2,000 discussions a year or negotiations so it's working as we want it to work for the people that are talking to us and the goal of this lean is to then have it work the same way but to be at the table for those other 1500 2third of the accidents we think are happening in our County that okay clarify yes thank you uh councilman Johansson yes Kelly can you stay sorry about that um and and just I come from a weird background so I'm going to ask questions that everybody's going to go I can't believe he's asking take take the the the third party I can't this happened to me because somebody else screwed up um somebody gets sick they they come to some hospital they incur some bills and then have some clinical responsibilities at at the end and they have to go for a couple months um if their insurance doesn't pay for all that how does how does that get paid for it's usually written off it's usually written off and and then and then how how does um e even if the folks can afford it you you don't sometimes we we bu we try to build the because I'm going to stop coming to the hospital pay my bills if yes it's conf right it's very patient dependent but got it got it and and then they go for for Chiropractic or some other thing and and their insurance doesn't pay for that either after a certain amount of time but they they still get recommendations to do it um H how do they pay for that is that out of their pocket as well I believe so so so that that's the way I know it when I when I get occupational therapy or physical therapy or something so I guess what I'm trying to figure it out is what makes it different the obligation to pay if I go to Halifax and and my insurance doesn't cover or I have a deductible and and it's catastrophic I have to pay that and I know that based on when I say no give me the high deductible right cuz I want to put that money toward my boat instead of your insurance our insurance um what's the difference in in that obligation to pay the only difference I can see is that I got a pile of money from some other insurance company and and I need to use it to pay and and I as the recipient of that money I I would think through my attorney would say look I can't pay for in your case Halifax and in your case the chiropractors and in their case the the the physical therapy PR you gave me $150,000 and I got $200,000 worth of bills can we get together with these people CU I don't want a bad credit rating does does that does that exactly how I understand it happens all right so so I I I just I I guess I have a problem with when somebody hands me a check where where in my case nothing came from a third party I didn't get a check now I have a check why I don't have an obligation to come to the table with my creditors and and pay that bill so if you're saying that's not happening in two-thirds of the cases I I I kind of or or speculate that it's more than what you're getting um I I think it's I think it's the person with the money's responsibility uh whether they're whether they're um represented by an attorney or not to to come to their creditors with this money that the insurers they didn't get pain in suffering they got money for medical which they ought to turn over to the medicine people and the healers I agree with you and what this Lane does is requires that to take place right right got it okay I'm sure thank you you okay councilman Dempsey yeah uh Kelly if you could stay put real quick I'm sorry and this is something I think we've all experienced maybe just me but um how come it is whenever you go to the hospital I go in there and I pay cash I pay one amount for an x-ray but if they bill it to the insurance company it's five times more that my insurance company's paying for this x-ray than I'm paying with just cash does that happen not five times necessarily but I'm always saying when I see the insurance statement comes in I'm like God that that ambulance ride was $30,000 or I could have called a cab and got there for a 100 bucks I hope it wasn't that high but um to your point I we have contracted rates with different Insurance everything is is very complicated same service can cost two different amounts correct I come in as an individual insurance amounts I'm sorry I don't know that it costs different amounts we would get paid different amounts for this service so if I came in with no insurance and I said I want an x-ray 200 bucks I get my x-ray but if my insurance is paying for it a lot of times it'll be way more that the insurance company gets build than what I pay out of pocket it could be yeah so when this $100,000 settlement comes in from the insurance company you got have all the rights to it and you're going to say that's that's $1,000 for that X-ray and that's 30,000 for that ambulance Rod you heard me right so you're applying these leans at those inflated rates because you charge insurance companies way more than you charge mom and pop when they come in with a bag of nickels right and you want to have you guys want to have priority and dominion over all that over these guys and you're only going to pay them what's left whatever you feel like here's a little bit for you you here's something for you we're keeping the rest or or sue us that's pretty much what you're proposing I think it's quite nef puts a lot of Nefarious behavior on us we have a we added the word reasonable to charges to make sure that the lean is a reasonable amount um this the second part is is it is Neo it is very clear in the lean um language that by agreement of all the lean holder and the interested parties there's a fair and Equitable share reduction when there's not enough money to go around and that that is working well hold on would you agree that the old saying possession is non tense of the law that whoever's got it is pretty much going to keep it I I don't you ever heard of that heard in the legal Arena no and I doing this for a long time okay well you heard Mr Caldwell say that attorneys are Duty bound to make sure that anybody who has an interest in the settlement proceeds be settled with right and so is that a yes I'm sorry yes okay so you get attorney calwell up there and attorney calwell you're saying that he calls your office all the time to settle his cases with y'all he said he calls Gail and Stacy in in our office okay so you're saying there's some bad lawyers out there who just don't care about your claim I would like not to be calling anyone a bad lawyer I'm a big fan of our legal Community but there are there is a group of lawyers or a group of cases that we are not called okay so do you agree with Mr calwell that they have an ethical Duty uh I had I would need to read the the section he's citing but for us there's no way to know who's got what cases and to go find them well how do you know it's 1500 to 2,000 you just gave us these numbers earlier saying it's happened in 1500 to 2,000 cases so where did you get that number yeah so in 2016 the last year we filed leans there were 2272 filed did you call any of those lawyers and say Hey where's our money back then yeah we were talking to all of them we haven't been able to file a lean then so I'm assuming it's about 2500 to 3,000 leans that we could file a year we just haven't and I know that we talk to about a thousand lawyers on cases now a year anyway so there is that big bunch that still talk to us and we're trying to get to the other group that's not so did you file a bar complaint against those lawyers that did not ethically fulfill their obligation to contact all the people who are owed money it would be impossible to know who they are and who they which patients they represent you just gave us the number 1500 to 2000 did you even on one of those cases you don't know any of the lawyers or the parties involved no sir we've had a lean in place since 1953 through special law and we thought this would just be another get get back to status quo so we can be at the you're expecting to get the 100,000 and say sue me Sue me to get the rest what's to say we don't leave it up here for everybody to dig into and you come in in that, 1500 to 2,000 cases and you sue them why why does the onus have to be on the chiropractors or the plane of the victim of the car wreck why is the onus on them to hire a lawyer and bring a lawsuit why isn't it that you guys can't file a lawsuit to get your money back or put a why can't you guys Sue to get your fair share which you believe it is with all due respects for in five years of me being at Halifax we've had one complaint on against us for equal distribution we otherwise have the theory that we are a Mission hospital we are trying to get partial payment for some of the services we provide and we negotiate and make sure everyone at the table gets a gets a gets a portion and that's what's already happening though correct for the for the for the lawyers that are talking to us so have you guys gone to tallah because this is basically what we're doing here is tort reform at a county level and I think Mr Santiago said I've dealt with this in tallah has yeah great deal with it in Tallahassee what have you guys done to fix this through the governor and our Representatives up in Tallahassee so when the elateral County case came out it made it very clear that special law wasn't going to work and that it needed to be a County ordinance that is the only reason that we're here but have you guys tried to get the legislature to change that I haven't because I knew there was a route with the County Council and until today I had found you all to be supportive of this so I I didn't recognize there being particular issues we've been before you annually for the last three years or so it please I don't mean to disrespect you or anything like that because I I I love Halifax um you know my son was there too but um I I just I just don't like one everybody I think is equal in the chain of recovery for a patient you guys as well as these guys and I don't think one person should have superiority on getting paid over the rest I think it should all be divied up equally and fairly and I don't think there's a problem with the way it is now so I just I feel bad for these guys potentially going unpaid and you guys having far superior bargaining power that's all the way I understand it arleene is not like a priority lean so if there were other leans it would all be it's just all on the table to negotiate yeah but they don't get the same I mean with this gentleman said was make it apply to everybody if it if it applied to everybody it'd be fair so why can't we just make this apply to everybody not just the hospital I'm not opposed to everyone getting getting their fair share that's that's the goal of this Lane is just to get to the table on the cases that were not okay okay well again I apologize I didn't mean to sound rude or come across harsh I just want to it's like it's like the lawyers against the doctors yeah so da uh councilman santiag were you done Don I'm done I'm done sanago um I I think there's probably some more work that could be done on this to clarify some of the concerns or at least to um to make some members feel more com comfortable with it Mr chair I move that we table this item and have staff bring it back to us when they feel right Mr chair there's a there's a motion on the table for approval there is I don't have the motion then we would have to vote that down or remove the motion I I I'm the one that made the motion David you seconded it I'm amenable to the idea of amending that motion to that if that's I'll Council resend my second so you're removing your motion yes sir and I'll make the motion to uh bring it back with uh to table it table it until we can get the language that we're all in agreement with CU it seems that's the way it's going table it to a Time certain or time uncertain um we would ask for a Time Notch okay okay table till for a Time uncertain to bring it back uh that motion is by Matt Reinhardt second is still by Santiago uh Jake Johansson yes sir um I I've got no problem with that I I I think we need to start talking about what are the bounds of this and and I just want to uh reflect on some of the things I heard um that that the possibility that that we need to find out if we can bring everybody to the table not just the hospitals the nonprofit hospitals is that is that right Kelly said she was amenable to that somebody up here said um uh why can't we bring everybody I have four chiropractors Shak their head up and down I don't know if that can be done Russ and Mike um but that would be one of the things to to consider including um EMS um uh the other thing I heard is is that um in in Halifax's opinion everything's working good for onethird approximately onethird of the cases based on her 2016 data and there's possibly 2third out there that aren't coming to the table so um uh if we make a local ordinance how are we going to get those people some that are in town some Josh Wagner some people we don't know from out of town to the table and and that we try not to uh exclude anybody from this bargain and that and I think the ordinance already has this that that we try to work together to come up with a conclusion uh then we arbitrate then we go to court right it's kind of we try to try to ratchet it up as it goes um so I don't know how to put that in motion so I just set it over the uh loudspeaker so you guys can gather it up later does anybody oppose that Russ Brown's gotot took it all in no he yeah he'll beat me up he's given the thumbs up so I think you made your points clear um we have a motion on the table on the floor to table this to a Time uncertain so that Russ and legal staff can work on all those questions uh Jake all in favor say I I any opposed and that motion carries 7 to zero and we have a hard stop at at 12:50 it's 12:47 thank you doctors for coming in thank you um so we will uh take a a lunch break at 12:50 and come back at 1:45 than h [Music] [Music] [Music] n [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] 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County council meeting the meeting will begin in 5 [Music] minutes [Music] w [Music] you [Music] w [Music] oh [Music] for [Music] welcome to the vucha County council meeting the meeting will begin in 2 [Music] minutes [Music] [Music] okay we will get started in 60 Seconds sure God bless no you don't want that it's vacation time okay we will uh resume the meeting at 1:46 and uh before we hear from you I have a little order of business here that we need to take care of uh item eight the uh U expert witness could could not uh remain so I would like uh to hear a motion to have this item uh pulled um actually just reassigned to a date certain April 16th so and at a time certain 4:30 p.m. so moved and that motion is made by David Santiago seconded by Matt Reinhardt uh all in favors uh Jake did you want to speak to this yeah did haven't we uh moved this once already yes sir but um here the key witness who provide relevant information is unable to attend so that's that's kind of issue so we just going to keep on kicking the can and kicking the can or we eventually going to settle on a date and talk about it we're we're aiming for the 16th so which is the very next meeting um he was here and I think he he had to leave is what I heard yeah so so chairman and County Manager Apollo can can we work with them to make sure that they all got their stuff together and and that we put it in the right place so we can get this over with in yes I was actually talking with their their attorney Christy Wilson that's exactly the plan we're going to meet after this make get item two and let's be done with it it's ridiculous thank you chairman the motion is for April 16th at 4:30 so that's early in the uh that that meeting will start at 4 so that's pretty early um all in favor say I I any opposed and so item 8 is uh moved ahead to April 16th that brings us back to item four I believe which is why which is why you're waiting for us propos vacation of a portion of the plat of the map of Henry P Brian's addition to Barberville good afternoon uh Tad casbeer County engineer the petitioners requested the vacation of a portion of the platted rights of way pardon me of uh the map of Henry B Brian's addition to Barberville specifically the sections of pometto Ashley and several unnamed rights of way uh totaling 1.21 Acres uh the road sections are unimproved and uh there are no utilities no objections from neighbors councilman Santiago move to approve motion to approve by David Santiago uh second by councilman Reinhardt any discussion all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries unanimously 7 to zero item five a special exception for a communication Tower exceeding 70 feet good afternoon clay Iran director of growth and Resource Management uh this is a special exception uh in this particular zoning District uh towers that exceed 70 ft have to go through the special exception process is coming to you with a recommendation of approval from both your uh staff and the planning and Land Development regulation commission uh there was no comment on the subject property it is located near the town of Pearson it is an uh relatively un developed parcel there is a mobile home on the property this is where the council will need to make a decision to wave the thousand foot separation requirement we have in our exception criteria for these towers the theory behind that is that uh anyone who may not be residing on the same parcel or within a th feet may not want to have the said Tower the mobile home that's in question is on the subject property and the owner of the property has no problem with the close proximity it's about 540 ft from the Tower located so again that would have to be part of the motion if you choose to uh approve the special exception otherwise uh staff and the pdrc are recommending approval there are five conditions that are identified on page 5-3 and 5-4 of your agenda package which relate to the minutes from the meeting of the pdrc will be glad to answer any questions you may have Council councilman Santiago move to approve including the the exception for the setbacks second motion to approve including the exception for the sex back so the mobile home can stay by Santiago uh seconded by Matt Reinhardt discussion all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries 7 to zero item six resolution 2024 uh rezoning from The General commercial B4 zoning classification at 1328 Hurst Street Daytona Beach to the urban single family residential R4 zoning clay Urban yes sir clay Urban director of growth and Resource Management uh the subject property is being is occupied by a church and will continue to be occupied by the church the church seeks to uh do modifications to the site it was discovered that they had split zoning where they had both R4 which is a residential single family zoning and B4 which is a commercial zoning in order to address the issues of lot size and conformance with the zoning it was recommended by staff and agreed to by the property owner to reone to R4 so the property and its total will uh comply with the R4 zoning and allow for them to continue to use the property I do have to point out that there were four variances also approved by the pdrc as part of this application so that that way we could facilitate the church's plans to improve the property it's coming to you with a recommendation of approval from both the staff and the planning and Land Development regulation commission and there was no public comment about the subject property if there's any questions for your staff we'll be glad to answer them councilman Santiago to move to approve okay second Johansson motion to approve by David Santiago second on that motion by Jake Johansson Mr Brower I would like to confirm that there was no expar communication for item six five or four okay let's start with item six is there any uh expart to declare none for me none for me item five none for me item four none for me item four was xte I didn't have the H oh okay uh okay any discussion on item uh six all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries 7 to Z Item seven also a quasi judicial hearing uh resolution 2024 rezoning from the rural residential RR zoning classification on West Blue Springs Avenue to the urban single family residential R4 zoning classification before you begin does anyone have any expar to declare on item seven yes yes I do not um met with the applicant attorney you met with the applicants attorney I met with the applicants attorney and I met with a Mr Kerner and I went out to his property and looked at the location on Saturday I as well visited the location did not go on the property but walked around the property and met with a next door neighbor um and talk with him I I spoke with uh the gentleman mostly through email but I was supposed to meet with him to discuss it more due to family issues unable to so okay that's my invol Dan J spoke to the um I believe the neighbor on on email also spoke to uh the applicant's uh representation uh on the phone email and representation for me all right I'd also would add that I spoke to the uh cob Co attorney in office uh with with Clay about this as did probably several of okay thank you very much CLA irin director of growth and Resource Management uh the subject property is located near the city of Orange City um it is basically on the cusp of an area that's got rural on East and more Urban Development to the West if you look North and South you can see that there is a transitional area going from a more rural area to a more urban area the applicant is requesting ing a resoning for mural residential to uh R4 which is a single family residential development uh both are consistent with the underlying land use of urban low intensity uh staff recommended approval and it went forward to your planning and Land Development regulation commission with that at the hearing uh there were at least four property owners that objected in person they cited a variety of things as referenced in your staff report everything from uh potential traffic issues to access on to live o which is the street to the west of the subject property to uh impacts on the use of people's personal property on their own land for things such as their own personal shooting range uh for impacts on Wildlife impacts on storm water Etc so there was some concern from the adjacent property owners for the potential intensification of the use of this property uh staff looked at it from a perspective of the underlying land use allows for the zoning of R4 there is uh consistent land use patterns to the West that the uh soils and everything else out there are conducive to towards this type of development and that um overall it was in general compliance with the comprehensive plan there are some issues that were identified by the applicants um or excuse me by some of the Neighbors in regards to access onto Blue Springs uh the the applicant subm submitted a conceptual site plan that showed approximately 10 single family lots on a street with a culde-sac at the end in storm water and Landscape buffer uh this is not binding in any way because it is not gone through the formal site plan or excuse me subdivision process so therefore it's really just for informational purposes um that will have to go through your formal review process of the subdivision so we that that's where we will check in regards to water sewer storm water access onto blue sprs or access onto live o there was concern by the residents who uh abut live o that they did not want this proposed project accessing that property or excuse me that road live O is a public road it is not developed to County standards it's a dirt row right now um the applicant is indic they do not plan on utilizing it for their access and have identified access onto Blue Springs there is a a considerable change in elevation along Blue Springs and one of the neighbors complained that this would be a site visibility issue representatives from the volan sheriff's office as well as your uh County engineering dep Department went out to review it and did identify that there is a considerable change and that would have to be addressed as part of the subdivision improvements to ensure that there was a safe site visibility for Access onto the property um under the current zoning it could be developed for four single family homes that could get access to Live Oak right now or access to Blue Springs uh they could go through the uh subdivision process that way and be able to get approved under the current zoning uh under the proposed zoning and uh consistent with the land use they could in theory develop up to a maximum of 16 units but when you start taking into consideration the requirements for storm water for the requirements for public rights of ways and other things what you see in that conceptual plan that was included by the applicant that represents uh basically the Practical maximum that could be on that property there are some issues in regards to sanitary sewer this is within a basin management action plan area for Blue Springs so they would have to comply with that uh they would have to first and see if there's availability of s sanitary sewer for service there uh based on conversations with orange city that is not possible at this time so they will have to coordinate with the uh Department of Health in regards to what is required in regards to Advanced treatment septic systems in this area uh that would that also impact the minimum lot size and their ability to develop to the theoretical maximum we believe that that would Al basically reduce even further the size of the Lots because then at that point you would have to maintain at least a half acre if you were able to secure portable water from the city of or excuse me of Orange City which is possible so at this point you have the PDR C reviewed it there was not a full membership present so it's coming to you with a 33 vote which is basically a denial and so if there's any questions from us we'll be glad to answer them I know the applicant is available here to answer questions and I believe there are members of the public who would like to speak to this there are numerous members of the public that want to speak um anyone have uh questions uh David Santiago for clay I I just want to ask a question on the um the septic and Sewer thing um you had said that there's no uh services available there for sewer right correct and so what our our or our ordinances allow for if there's no accessibility then they can go to these Advanced septic systems is that what you said there's two different rules at play there's first of all is there availability of sanitary sewer and portable water portable water is but sanitary sewer is outside more than a th000 feet away and the city of Orange City does not have any plans to extend that utility by this property so we would not require them to do so if they seek to develop the property they then would have to go and look at what is required for the onight Disposal Systems septic tanks because it's within the Blue Springs bmap area and the priority Focus area they would have to abide by state law which requires that within that area they have to put provide Advanced uh treatment so that means not just your standard septic system they would have to have those which would remove a lot of the uh nutrients specifically like nitrogen so that that way it would not have those pollutants into the spring system those are individual on lot systems correct yes sir okay thank you okay uh clay I'm assuming since this is close to Blue Springs has this area already had a um uh a storm water uh study done when you say a storm water do we have a basin study so that it shows the overall area that's there and how the drainage patterns are so that that way we understand way waterers flow and everything else I'll have to defer to Ben Bartlett on his in his department but we do have uh Basin studies for 16 different distinct areas within this the county um when we talk about storm water on the individual lot that's where they would have to take the existing grades surrounding them and on the property to be able to identify where the storm water is going and how they will be able to retain it on site to meet both the pre so that the pre-development condition exist in postd development so yes uh Ben has it been has this area already had a watershed study yes it looks like it's kind of on the border between the Delan Ridge and the St John's River Basin and both those have had studies completed okay the Delan Ridge is a little older it's back in the 90s so there's a storm water plan for this area there's a overall storm water basin study um which looks at issues involved in that area I doubt that this particular area there was a focus on because at the time the study was done there probably wasn't much way in the way of infrastructure out there okay David Santiago uh Jake Johansson um clay what I'm trying to look it up but I'll ask a question um the the the block between Park AV and Lancaster and the block between Lancaster and bufort and the block between bufort and lioke were those originally and then and then changed to reflect what they are now and is this just a a March toward Orange City proper of of from ourr R4 do you know I don't know off the top of my head as you can see we have over in this area that is immediately West we have a considerable amount of land out here that has been subdivided in basically everything from quarter acre lots up to half acre lots to one acre lots and then you have this area here is actually being utilized for a 300 foot cell phone tower right and then up towards the north you can see we do have the rural area there and then more area to the east so it is um it is basically a a mix of both large lot rural type development and smaller quarter acre lot type development so so technically the the as as we move on in this world um the area to the South and and to the east could could eventually become what this is right as these blocks move move forward yes sir because as you can see you have th this shows you the current zoning map right so this this whole area let me that's what this area is existing R4 so the R4 designation has been there at least for what I'm aware of at least eight years since I got here and then this rural residential area is up in here the cell phone tower is actually Zone far Z zoned R for as well right all right thank you okay I don't see any other uh questions from staff I'm sure there'll be comments and debates but uh since nobody's up now why don't we let's hear from the uh public um I'm I'm going to call did you want to speak first okay go ahead I can speak I didn't see you there are you calling me short I didn't call you anything good afternoon chairman of council for the record niik with the law firm of cob Co 231 North wooden Boulevard here in D land um honestly clay stole like all my thunder because he has been just so helpful throughout this process so has Kristen and the planning staff you have so they've done a really great job with the staff report you know explaining possibilities of what might happen during the engineering phases of this I do want to remind everyone that we are just that entitlement and so we did develop a concept plan very rudimentary plan not required but just to give you an idea of what's feasible there what's likely feasible um you know once we get with your technical staff they're going to ask for likely ask for RightWay they're going to ask for modifications uh you know because there is a high point in that area they might ask for certain improvements to make sure it's safe to make sure it meets the county standards and so we understand all of that um we weren't going to put in you know a year of engineering then come here and and go through the entitlement phase for something that may not occur so step one in the process definitely have a long way to go we're asking from to go from RR to R4 uh as clay mentioned you do have R4 to the South to the West have a little of RR uh to the East and then some more R4 further east so we are asking to remain in line um with what's contiguous to us both to the west and to the South and based on our designs we we think we can fit approximately 10 units there now again that might change depending on what improvements are required by your county staff in order for us to meet the requirements to be able to move forward and plat uh we did also do a traffic memo to review the traffic and it's it's the Minimus it's it's minimal if you you can think about putting 10 houses in that area it's it's essentially uh uh I think up to seven uh peak hour trips so you're looking at a pretty small number of trips uh a pretty low impact on traffic relatively uh for the area and we're asking to be consistent with kind of the surrounding area of what's occurring another big kind of Point here is because this is a what you're going to call a master subdivision uh there are certain requirements that your county requires on us and one that puts on us and one is 15% tree preservation area so we have to commit 15% of our site to tree preservation and then of course Mr chair as you noted storm water right so you need to over you especially in this scenario you want to oversize your storm water unit because it cannot change what preconstruction and pre-development uh uh water flow so we're making sure we're working on that but again that's going to come during engineering um as of now we have this conceptual plan of how we think everything is going to work and we're going to work with your staff to further elaborate that as we go through this process so happy to answer any questions which would very much appreciate when you come back up and uh respond to some of the public comments and um that's it thank you so much any questions for NAA uh no okay we'll call you back up thank you sir um you want to do it now clay can you thank you clay um real quick because I was looking through the uh what we were provided what was the reason for the three it was a 3 three what was the three denials based on again it was basically the public testimony came through it was solely based on public testim okay thank you and that's why I'm leading into this thank you okay I will call your name you can come up to the podium please speak into the mic you will have three minutes to uh um tell us uh what you want to tell us Laura Bishoff Laura following you will be markk burs just so Mark can get ready good afternoon council members I would like to thank the board for allowing me the time to speak regarding this important subject that will affect all of the residents that currently live near this Blue Springs Avenue property my name is Laura Bishoff and I have lived at my home for almost 30 years and I'm located just east of the 1100 Blue Springs Avenue location I would like to encourage you to keep this property at its current zoning and not allow Urban zoning which would help alleviate the potential of more flooding and more vehicles on our already overcrowded roads today though I would like to focus on giving you some information regarding the current impact this would have on our already crowded school system in the western portion of vucha County this information is directly from the vucha County School System level of service and you can see that up there on the board please pay attention to manate Cove River Springs and University High School for the 2022 2024 school years as you can see our elementary school and high schools are already over capacity there are three apartment complexes loaded located on Veterans Memorial Parkway set to open soon and they are all zoned for the three schools in question this will have a huge impact on the attendance numbers these expected numbers from these apartments are not included in the above figures approving the rezoning of the property will clearly have a negative impact on the already overcrowded school systems I have spoken with parents who attend these schools and they have stated that they have students sitting at counters in the classrooms because they do not have adequate desk space for them this is not fair to the children the teachers or any new students that could occupy our new homes as reported last week Bia schools will no longer receive Co relief money from the federal government this could potentially impact class size and the learning environment according to the vucha county teacher School teachers union president our roads are already dangerous and nearly impassible at school start and release times traffic is backed up in all directions while parents drop off and pick up their children any Vehicles including emergency vehicles trying to travel Blu Springs Avenue can certainly expect delays often ex excess of 10 minutes due to traffic congestion you can see from the figures how this decision can affect our schools I would like to encourage you to keep this property at the current zoning we do not need this property to be changed to R4 zoning which could potentially allow the owner to split this property into 75- ft lots and allow up to 16 homes on a 4 Acre Site our roads cannot handle the traffic and our schools cannot handle the additional students thank you for your time and I hope you consider this information when you make your decision thank you thank you uh Mark Bert Mr Brower can you tell me who's after Mark as well yes afterm Mark Mark you can come on down would be uh Christina Bertrand good afternoon gentlemen thank you for having me today um I have some pictures okay I have photos of you can kind of see the slope of the road there because Blue Springs does have have a 16t elevation change along the front of this property in the 320 ft so the slope is significant and that is drain storm water is very very going to be a problem here that's definitely something we're concerned with we don't want to have another issue like Miller Road in Orange City or Victoria Gardens in the land or Kings Landing in Port Orange we don't want to flood any of the existing habitats any of the existing homes any of the existing properties so at storm waterers definitely a concern the other issue I have is it calls for um 15% or 30% of the existing tree line to stay and if we get close to that root Zone what's the guarantee we're going to have any of that stuff's actually going to stay alive long term who's going to maintain that is there going to be an HOA involved in this and if there's an HOA the character of the neighborhood there are no HOAs in this area so none of that matches what's there and if this does go it'll set precedence to the other large Lots there so all of the rural could be gone in this area and that's something that doesn't lend to the character of the neighborhood thank you for your time thank you Christina Bertrand and you will be followed by Barb uh love lady hi I'm Christina bertran I really wasn't planning on speaking today but um this is really important to me I've lived in that area for over 20 years I was a County employee for 28 years um one thing that's got to be taken into consideration is um there are three schools in this area and two are off of West Blue Springs and the only way to access them is off of West Blue Springs because it's a oneway entrance an exit to get to those two schools so four times a day West Blue Springs is jammed up with cars coming from both sides and then if you don't use West Blue Springs and you know your way around there you'll go down Buford or you'll go down Williams Because Williams is the only other paved Road out there Buford is paved almost to the end so people use that as a racetrack too Williams is used as a racetrack and they'll take those two back roads which are like three roads away from where they want to build this to get over to Adeline and Adeline takes you down um Graves not Graves um Blue Spring um name of the road the road where the high school is so so if you can bypass those areas you'll use those two residential roads to and they use them as a racetrack trust me I live at the corner of Catherine and Blue Spring and Buford they use them as a racetrack to get around all the traffic during certain times and then if the high school's getting in or out then they go the other way to West Blue Springs so we cannot afford to have this in the high school my daughter's in high school and there is no student parking available you can't get a parking pass there because they're so full so if you add more kids where are they going to park because they're out of parking passes and then the other thing is is I built homes out there and I was just assessed a couple years ago $7,000 in fees for trees Scrub Jays and turtle surveys are every one of those homes going to be accessed for that or is this commercial development going to get that waved and we get stuck with the Bill thank you uh Barb Barb love lady followed by uh Doug morfield my name is Barb love lady I live at 13 77 West Blue Springs and I've lived at this residence which is a half an acre for over 30 years and I've seen many changes and especially the traffic increase over the years Blue Springs is a two-lane road and where they plan to put the entrance for this subdivision is on a hill and would become a very dangerous hidden Hazard to anyone driving over the hill traveling west the traffic is so bad already in Daily we see Vehicles speeding by our house recently two motorcycle police officers observed from our driveway the amount of vehicles that pass over the hill and that stretch of road their police report stated it is much too dangerous to put an interest off of Blue Springs Avenue I'm sure you're aware of that vehicle coming West from 1792 travel way too fast and just the stopping of a school bus by us at the bottom of the hill causes breaks to squeal and frustrated drivers can you imagine what it would be like to add more traffic and stop and go traffic on the hill a disaster waiting to happen but mostly I'm concerned for the children who travel that bit of sidewalk on the hill those coming going and coming and going to school or to town they ride their bikes and skateboards and run down that Hill generally enjoying that area in fun and safety for those children and adults I fear an accident will happen if that is taken away impatient drivers trying to get out of this new subdivision having to go west taking a chance not having any idea what's coming over the hill or someone hurrying leaving the subdivision to turn toward 1792 and not seeing that little 5-year-old on his bike or the child walking not paying attention talking running stepping off the curb in front of the car Someone's Child could be killed they could be related to you your children or your grandchild why take a chance it's not worth it are you aware of the police report of the danger you will be responsible something that's not as important but personal to us our property sits on that slope or that hill and in more if more houses are put east of us it will cause more water flow to come down causing flooding and would increase even more our inability to grow a lawn thank you thank you you did a great job thank you Doug morfield followed by Carrie kuffner followed by Lonnie Caldwell hello Council uh my name is Douglas morfield we purchased our house off of uh West Blue Springs on Buford uh back in ' 86 we've saw our road go from dirt to PVE pavement we saw uh stop sign at the end of blue Springs go to a uh red light a lot of changes uh we've seen uh motorcycle uh run over or broadside a car or a good friend of mine a minivan on Blue Springs and Williams He the motorcycle was coming down the sidewalk at a high rate of speed at night with no lights on the minivan come up to the stop sign it didn't see and it broadsided and killed the motorcycle 16-year-old uh child um we don't don't want the project to go forward we uh we actually have almost two acres uh on Buford uh just south of the middle school starts getting out about uh about 2:00 and it goes till about 4:30 so that traffic is all afternoon it's not just a four different in instances it's it's all afternoon and all all morning that you have traffic between the Middle School high school and the uh uh elementary school so I feel that it's going to impact the uh traffic it's going to impact the utilities and it's not something we want in our neighborhood thank you thank you Carrie kuffner sorry guys I'm Carrie cuff now I live on West Blue Springs Avenue right next to this property I actually own two homes on next to this property my daughter has 2 and a half acres and I have two and a half acres um we've been there 35 years I am the one with the gun range and if they do build this into urban Lots I've been reassured by the sheriff's department that my gun range will in fact stay because I own two and a half acres so that will not go away our farm animals will not go away our chicken noises will not go away our duck turkeys our cows our goats nothing will be be dismissed my main problem with rezoning this this property can withstand three to four homes I think with the existing area around those homes for water runoff but if you rezone this to Urban there is no way even if they build two ponds because ponds don't percolate over a few years they fill up and then they run over this property slow slopes north to south 22 ft and then east to west 17 almost 17t when we shot it with a laser I've been there 35 years I see what my property does with water runoff and we can hardly control it with just two homes on 5 acres and then they were talking about in the first meeting this property would need no field dirt in the minutes is how it got a three to three vote well this property each lot per a contractor that I had come out will take a minimum of 2018 yard trucks per lot in field dirt to sustain this rezoning so this not even counting the danger of the road I have seen multiple people killed on the road we've had helicopters land in the property across the street to evacuate people that's been hurt so bad uh every time the law enforcement go comes out they write tickets from 45 miles an hour to 80 M an hour on our road and you can look that up it's public information if this is just ridiculous there's not a neighbor surrounding this property except that a person trying to get this reone that lives right across the street and once you approve this he's not going to stop they're going to do the property across the street and then they're going to give everybody else Open Door hey they reone that property let's all rezone the urban property and have 75 foot Lots the neighborhood cannot withstand this with the traffic and everything and if you look at the property on my map all the way to Sparkman is rural residential going east when you go north all the way to French avenue is R rural residential and South is the phone tower so that really doesn't matter what it zoned because it's a phone tower nobody's going to build on it but starting from across the street where they're trying to get this rezone going west yes it is urban property but from this property and the other three directions why we all built there so we could have quiet farms and not live in a neighborhood thank [Music] you Lonnie calwell my name is Lonnie cwell I live at 329 Park Avenue I've been there for 25 years um I'm a general contractor a home builder multif family single family commercial if you can perit it I can build it I I think this is a horrible idea um we're not looking at the big picture here we're looking at one lot aside from the fact that Lancaster street is a basin that's where all this runoff water is going to end up it's going to run right straight down Blue Springs hook a left on Lancaster left on Buford and go in what doesn't go that way what it comes off the back of the lot it's going to run right through the houses where they already have flooding through live o through Buford it's going to end up in Lancaster I had some pictur and one of them was of Lancaster and it's kind of hard to see but you can see that off of Blue Spring it dips down and it goes up that's one of my views which you guys have already seen from the others showing the slope going down okay that's it right there it's like I said in the back there where those trees come together that slopes back up and the land to the right in that picture slopes back up so all the water is going to settle there we get a tropical storm like fi 36 in of rain in 3 days they're going to have 3et of water in their living room okay Retention Ponds where's the Overflow going to go there's no storm system out there of any kind for it to go into it's going to go into these properties you can't build a retention Pond big enough to hold that period okay um we're going to set a precedent across the street we're going to see the same thing we're going to see these pop up all over everybody's concerned that we're going to add the automobiles from 20 houses no we're not going to add the automobiles from 20 houses it's going to be exponential we're going to add the automobiles from 400 houses because instead of being able to SP put four Lots on or four houses on there we could put 20 okay it's it's just a bad idea all the way around aside from that the land right now there's already a low area on it to acts as kind of a retention all right in the northwest corner um they're going to have to put aerobic septic systems in they require ual maintenance and certifications if they're too close together they'll have to go with an aerobic drip system requires the same maintenance and certifications but they're very expensive the drip system started around $21,000 a house and the Aerobic System started around 14 because that's what I put into all of the houses that I'm building okay because I build out in that area I have a house going on 13th Street right now and I have another house going in on suar Avenue in Orange City and I've got lots out in the uh Daytona Parks Estates and D land and another one and de Barry so I just think that you know we're the schools are overcrowded we've got all these problems and we're going to set a precedent if this gets owned that's going to create problems 10 years from now that we're all going to look back and go wish we hadn't have done this that's just how I feel thank you for your time thank you where did Paulo go okay na you ready thank you Mr chair I just want to address a couple of those comments um I think the one something that we heard pretty often is it's going to say precedent um and I know oh Paulo's right there but I know your staff uh and your attorneys can tell you that uh no one action sets a precedent it's it's not how it works so uh what happens is you come with an application you have a pre-application meeting for whatever matter that is in planning and it starts a process it starts a domino effect where then you have to get comments back from staff and then you receive those comments and you look at your plan and um then you get scheduled for PR pdrc you go through that process you come here and then you get into the very technical details uh where you have trained staff to understand what's required with respect to storm water traffic schools everything gets covered um and and so with respect to setting a precedent that doesn't occur legally that does not occur right so you approve this today it doesn't allow me to come in tomorrow and say well you approved this one here and so you're required to approve this one here every single matter every single development every single project must stand on its own it must meet the requirements of your code it must meet the criteria required whether it's a rezoning or whether later on it becomes a site plan or a subdivision it must meet all of those requirements and go through a process so there's no King maker that comes in and says well this happened here and so now all of these all of these over here get to be approved that's not how it occurs um it's a it's a very specific somewhat arduous process that we have to go through to get from step one to the finish line and so anyone that wants to come in and put 400 Lots has to go through this process and they have to go through County Council and so with respect precedent I think you know I can understand the the general position of if we do this here more people are going to come and and and and do it uh you know you can't stop anyone from trying to do something um but again it has to be compatible with your comp plan as well right and so and and with the with the zoning category around the area that's very specifically why we requested R4 it is already compatible with with the current land use that we have on the property which is why we're not asking for a comp plan Amendment and it is compatible with the surrounding area which is also why your own staff recommended approval they looked at all the criteria holistically and they said this this meets all of our criteria we're going to recommend approval so that's on the precedent I just wanted to kind of go over that uh regarding the schools we're talking about 10 Lots we did submit a capacity letter to the school district saying hey here we have 10 Lots can you tell us we have capacity because 10 lot is a Minimus they don't require us to get a capacity review done here uh they said okay that yep that sounds good we don't need we don't need to pursue this further so we did make that action to submit to the School District um they responded saying it's the minimouse here and our goal is to come in with a reasonable amount of losss and make certain conditions better that's why they call them certain improvements so there certain off-site improvements and on-site improvements um so for example we're working with County traffic might have to give up some RightWay might have to lose aoup lots to put in certain certain turn lanes and do things of that nature we're going to have to do whatever is required by your technical review staff to be able to get it approved in the first place we can't just say just trust us right it's going to go through your technical staff and they're going to have comments and they're going to say change list do this change list move this and we'll we'll start talking so that's on that with respect to the treats uh uh a certain individual brought up the root Zone the loss of trees uh Lua county has a really amazing tree protection ordinance it requires us to protect a substantial amount of the drip line and so we don't get to just build a house right next to a tree it's not how that works we have to have a ploted easement for our tree preservation that we cannot touch that is also uh reviewed and approved by your environmental department so we have to make sure we preserve and maintain those tree preservation areas that is on the homeowners themselves not on anybody else in the public um with respect to keeping the area as rule as possible I do understand that there are some areas there is that sliver of RR um but this is a pretty urban area I mean you saw the map that shows everything on this side and everything on this side kind of all around that you know that that three lot deep four lot deep uh area is our for already we're not asking for something that hasn't that isn't hasn't occurred and all of those uh subdivisions that occurred you know on the west side and the R4 that technically exists to the South that can be developed in the future uh all of that has a minimum 7,500 square foot lots and all of those subdivisions were done prior to storm water regulations so I understand that there might be flooding issues because they don't have they didn't have the regulations that we do now that we have to adhere to um I do have an engineer Mark Grande from kimley horn who can kind of talk a little bit more about the storm water um if that does work for you all and I'll bring him up in a minute uh the last kind of point I have to make is regarding the field derp there was something in the minutes that said we require no field derp I don't know if that got misconstrued I'm a lawyer I'm not going to speak about fil dirt um I assume some level of it will be required I do know that this is topographically a higher area so the assumption would generally be that you wouldn't require as much you would typically require in in in other places but I'll I'm going to leave that to the engineer just a lawyer here um but other than that I'm happy to answer any questions and we do respectfully request that you approve this request uh Mark you want to get up and kind of just talk about stormw for a moment sure how's it going everybody my name is Mark Grande with kimley horn civil engineer on the project uh we're at 1530 Cornerstone Boulevard in Daytona Beach um with regard to the storm water as ni pointed out this is just a concept plan the intent here and the design was to show that we can meet know minimum lot size criteria for the proposed R4 zoning classification we haven't gone into any engineering design yet but understanding some of the L art topography you know there is some elevation fall across the uh site in both directions as one of the residents mentioned um the intent once we do get into the engineering design phase would be to balance the site fill as best as possible and then utilize the storm water Pond for any additional fill needs uh that the develop may require um and as ni I believe also pointed out the storm water Pond is shown at 20% of the site area right now typically in our experience for a single family residential development you really only need to allocate 10 to 15% of your site but we wanted to oversize that for potential grading needs as she mentioned buffer requirements and and RightWay expansions or anything else that may come in the actual engineering phase of the design um and with that with regard to storm water I think she already mentioned that as well those adjacent properties did not have storm water design criteria to abide by we will have to go through that process with engineering review to make sure that we are maintaining any storm water on site any runoff on site um um and if there is any offsite discharge we cannot exceed those predevelopment conditions so again we have not entered the design phase the engineering design phase but we will you know evaluate all these concerns once we get there and we'll work with staff to address them thank you thank you uh Jake Johansson do you have questions for ni or I I do sir one okay yes ma'am um you said you contacted the school board or the school staff correct and and they chose not to not to even entertain the thought that 10 homes are coming and their their schools are they didn't they didn't show enough concern to look at it correct so so from my understanding if it's 10 Lots or or less being produced um they consider that the Minimus and and they don't move forward on it they don't have a concern did did they comment that that's going to stink but we have a rule in place or or did they just they didn't they just after we submitted our application they provided us with that commentary stating that it's it's 10 lots that we're currently showing and so we don't need to move move further in the process got it thank you this councilman Dempsey ni I'm sorry I know I spoke to you earlier um about this and uh but then I went out and looked at the site on Saturday and um just so we're clear the actual location I'm going to put my pen in here hope I don't write on this but basically this is where the site is right right there where the tip of my pen is this is a picture I haven't seen before so I can't fully as as a lawyer you may know I can't fully comment on the context but it appears to be in that general area okay and you had mentioned my biggest concern is uh traffic that Hill there's a we got the letter in here from Sergeant David Barnes from the Sheriff's Office and I believe most definitely I mean we got two deputies here have shown concern oh yeah because it's a blind you in the top of this property is basically at the crest of that hill and if the entrance and exit is you know 150 feet down the hill west of that Crest um I stood there and I mean I it seems like as a traffic study showed it's like 47 these cars are not doing 30 they're not doing a speed limit they're speeding over that Hill and um you mentioned earlier in your presentation that you would put turn Lanes in we we're in the entitlement phase so whatever is required of US during the engineering phase so you have all your very fancy Traffic Engineers um that you have on staff all of those individuals get into a room and I'm not in that room because I'm a lawyer and I don't do math but all those individuals come together and they say Okay based on the site conditions the current site conditions we're going to require X Y and Z okay so we don't know what's required yet because the your staff isn't going to evaluate uh a development that is has not been entitled yet for the proposed entitlement here of R4 so that that occurs after this process okay this this I'm sorry whoever's photos these are I hope you don't mind me borrowing them they're from somebody okay there he is thank you guys but okay now looking at this different picture uh ni would you say that this is a fair representation of the property here this is the property that yall are looking to develop with the fire hydrant across the street right there again it's an assumption I I haven't seen these photos before so I can't make an an accurate representation but my assumption is that that appears to be the area I I just haven't been able to evaluate this because when I went there that fire hydrant was the Middle Point the proposed exit from this subdivision and again Mr dumpy just want to make something clear um that concept plan mhm it it only exists in theory so I don't want you to look at it and say well this says you're going to exit here and you're going to enter here none of that has been established we we prepared that concept plan for one reason and one reason only which is to see what is what is feasible on site so when we when we threw our 20% storm water 15% tree preservation area in the road we said okay we can theoretically fit 10 units on site without even talking to the county without talking to what their requirements are right so so that concept plan was to give you give you all an idea of what it may look like it may look completely different we're not even required to submit a concept plan here so we could have I could have I could stand up here and say 10 Lots eight Lots we just want R4 we want R4 zoning we have not developed a plan or engineered a plan at all that will have to go through your county review system go through all of your count staff and be approved that way through Land Development we just haven't gotten there yet my concern again going back to that original picture if this is this is the top of the hill right here and this is where your subdivision is going to be I mean you can see where that's blind this is looking Eastbound And if you're coming westbound and you're cresting that hill and your entrance to your subdivision is 150 ft past that Crest we don't but we so we don't know that we don't know if our entrance will be there we we well you said that there nothing is set in stone turn Lanes but maybe your Eng I'm not saying there's going to be turn Lanes I'm saying that might be an idea that County staff comes up with and says you should do this you should do that you should do a Dell link you should there's so many opportunities that we might have we should regrade there are a lot of options but you know we could say okay well we're going to actually move the entrance back this much this many feet we're going to do this we're going to change this none of that in set is set in stone the only thing we're looking at today is the the application for a rezoning from RR to R4 which is compatible with the Uli land use so I I understand that concern um we're not there yet we haven't evaluated that because the county requires a certain process for us to go through and we we are not allowed to essentially jump the gun and and you know take all of your kit County staff's time and start talking about you know all these subdivision issues when we haven't even gotten through the entitlement phase understand but in this letter from uh sergeant Barnes from the sheriff's office he notes that there's in this 300 foot border on Blue Lake Blue Springs I'm sorry it's a 22 foot drop from here it's a 22 foot drop from here to here sorry about that I'm sorry I'm not I don't know how to use the marker David you know how to do this stuff but I can't figure this stuff out but like basically from there to there and that 300 foot span is a 22 foot drop right so and I stood there at the top of that and I watched at the supposed entrance it would give maybe somebody crusting that Hill three seconds reaction time to stop if there's a car stopped trying to pull in to the subdivision and there's another eastbound traffic car or two that they're waiting for I mean and they actually saw a car almost hit another car in the 30 minutes they were there and quite frankly I almost got hit by a car pulling out of Mr cff's driveway when I was leaving um so I guess when you said turn lanane because originally I was really against this but you did say turn lane so is there a way that your engineer has that we could alleviate this issue with the stacking because my concern is stacking we have to alleviate the issue I don't it's it's it's it's not like you know you guys approve us here today and then we say okay we can do whatever we want we're going to have all these driveway Cuts onto Blue Springs we're going to do this that and the other you have a very knowledgeable staff that has very specific requirements especially with respect to Traffic Safety and so we have to meet those requirements no matter what they are or we can't move forward with development we can't develop any loss if we don't meet your your County's traffic engineering and frankly all of the county staffs whether it's environmental whether it's planning whether it's Land Development or traffic if we don't meet their requirements we cannot develop and so if they say you know what you need to move this entrance we have to move the entrance right and so if they say this entrance it doesn't make sense here you're going to have to move it here for this to work you're going to have to put X Y and Z improvements in we have to comply with all of that to be able to even move forward and get a development permit so I I I you're looking at a concept plan and you're taking it you know kind of to heart and saying well it says the entrance is here and I I understand that um that that is that is something that's just in in a very conceptual phase very rudimentary is it is just for an General understanding of what can be potentially done on the site it is not set in stone it is going to go through numerous different processes with your county to ensure that all safety requirements are met and I don't know if you know Tad but he's gonna he's going to hold our feet to the fire and make sure that that anything that is required has to meet all safety standards well maybe I could ask Tad to come up if or is this Clay's jurisdiction I don't know does it matter we get Dr bball back up here and a lot that's all right he does Tad um well okay so what Assurance is I mean they because I really am concerned about that blind Hill and there's a lot of traffic and you're not the only one I've been out there myself I've seen it it is it's problematic as it is right now two different deputies have written letters about the the concern there so and she had mentioned turn lane and so that's that's the only thing that maybe piqu my interest but what what assurances can we have that this will be a safe left in left out or whatever into this project well as she said we don't approve it unless we're comfortable that it's a safe situation so we would take a look at it we take a look at the elevations involved we take a look at the sight distance not just from a horizontal situation but also from that vertical aspect that that's problematic at this particular location there's different options uh for tackling a problem like this turn LAN are certainly one of them we can do uh a situation potentially where we pull down a little bit of that Peak because that Peak is a problem period even if we make this entrance safe it doesn't necessarily mean it's safer for the sub or the uh Road just to the West there Live Oak it's a it's a problem as it stands right now and it's got five or six homes on it where people are turning right or turning left coming out of there and while they have an extra 100 feet that's not a whole lot if you're doing 45 miles an hour right so shopping distance so we'd like to see things like pulling that Peak down a little bit to try to improve that site distance in the first place uh this is a local Road it's not a thoroughfare road so we have other options like speed tables and those types of things to potentially slow traffic down the one benefit the one nice thing that would come from the development would be we would have somebody to pay for that as opposed to coming out of the County's coffers to fix the problem which really should be done in the first place um I guess my my concern is I'm sorry my concern is that's a big that's 22 ft that we're talking about I mean that's not a small hill for and I don't mean to correct you uh sir but uh uh the contour map shows it at about 16 well 7 feet doesn't sound like a big difference it's a big D I'm going based on the deputy's letter he said um I know I'm looking at the Contour higher the corners are 22 feet apart I'm looking at the contour map 70-7 in the uh in the agenda item you see it it Peaks around 70 and goes down to around 55 uh at live o so okay if this passes today it goes to you does it come back to us for final approval or is this just rest in your correct at that point it becomes have they followed the rules do they have uh have they met all the criteria the council previously spelled out in the Land Development code so then it comes out of our hands and it's basically in staff's hands to whether this gets done or not yes and it's our interpretation of the rules that you all have previously approved at prior councils have approved uh overall but uh and all I can say is that uh J Jay Williams County tra traffic engine and I coordinate on these things we want to make sure that we're doing everything we can not to uh make a situation worse certainly try to improve it in a case like this uh as best we can okay that's all thank you Tad thank you n councilman Santiago thank you um you said I think in your presentation that under the current um entitlement on the property it could do four Lots yes sir and the proposed potential could be 10 right the Practical potential under the rezoning you can get up to 16 but once we put it on paper 10 it's probably more than likely what it be um and then you mentioned also that you had some type of uh basic traffic analysis or something that was done and how many impa how many Road numbers are I got the terminology that you used for this if it came to development so when we had our it's required it's part of the resoning process to get a traffic memo done it's a traffic generation report you know how much traffic are you going to put on the the potential to put on the roadway and in terms of peak hour when we looked at peak hour again we're looking at 16 uh units not 10 uh it was seven peak hour trips at 16 units at 16 units and if it were 10 could be five you know I monot traffic engineer so I I'm not an engineer but I'm gonna guess okay I'm gonna go on a limb and say five if it were 10 and if it were as it's entitled two three reason I'm bringing that up the numbers are so small that this is not in my opinion going to make or break that inner that road um based on the numbers that I'm hearing and if staff has any well let me hear from staff uh when we do these analyses we utilize the it trip generation manual uh for a single family home that's typically 10 trips on a daily basis that means throughout the day a single family home will generate Le at least 10 trips in the AM Peak it's typically 10% of your daily trip same thing with your PM trip so what that means is if you have 10 homes then what you're looking as you know upwards of basically one to two trips out in the AM or excuse me 100 trips total 10 trips in the AM Peak 10 in the PM Peak then you have to look at how many are incoming and outgoing it's an 8020 split in the morning going out so that would be eight trips leaving the subdivision two coming into the subdivision and you would reverse that in the PM PE if this was left in its current zoning then you would have 40 trips throughout the day four trips four in the morning four in the evening I mean um it's this is where I'm struggling this is not something that's going to change the outcome of the problem in that area adding this small amount of homes I I get it if we're going to if we have a problem there it's not because of this project I'm talking about the road it's a problem that we've led up to where we're at today and that's something we should address if we're going to address it in in any way for making the road safe for everyone but four more trips or five more trips at its peak it's not going to change the road situation I just wanted to add that out there there cuz um if this was in a 100 home subdivision or something like that then we we have a different situation but I just don't see it Mr chair I just wanted to throw my thoughts out there unless somebody can convince me that adding four more trips than what's permissed permitted makes that road dangerous thank you um I I went out there as well and so I I shared Don's concern with safety just from looking at it from being there looking at the road however my main concern after looking at the property is is the flooding issue um Nico when we met in the office and we we looked at contour maps we look at the uh um satellite images and it it looks pretty flat um doesn't look like it would be a problem and then when I went there there's a we just talked about the way the road slop there's a steep slope to the east there's a steep slope to the South that water is going to go somewhere I don't know how it's developed without a huge amount of of fill and and that's the that's the struggle in this kind of a hearing is that you're you're right this is the entitlement phase it's not where you get to tell us how you're going going to prevent how the engineers are going to do all that and you said um trust us um You didn't say it just like just just trust us I'm not making fun of what you said you said trust your staff um trust Tad trust the planners um and I don't distrust them um you also mention you know we have a very strong uh tree ordinance this is where I I struggle well I can I can trust Mr Santiago and I had this uh give back and I understand his push back I said something about flooding and he said Do You Believe Engineers are developing things to flood and no of course I I don't believe that and yet flooding occurs that's why I started off asking the question um about a watershed study if that was done in this area and if it was then we should have a storm water management plan I still don't know what that is where they would put the water um after we trust that that will all be worked out I did travel down to um just yesterday to Kepler and 44 where we had previously approved the council previously approved a storage facility and there's not a tree left on that property the there so I don't I don't know what happens with the tree or it's maybe there's a buffer and I just can't tell where the edge is but 90% of it at least is there's no trees the trees in that area the ve the natural vegetation are going to be really important for preventing flooding I I can't see where that water will go without flooding the home behind it and all the homes to the east of it um I believe with what we just said that you if we dig a a big retention Pond there it's I I've trusted I've seen so many of them go in and they don't retain the water it it percolates through finds a CLA clay layer travels down to the next lowest property which is a neighbor I I can't in good it's totally different when you look at the contour map look at the satellite maps and then go out and look at it on purpose this is really steep property in in two directions you also you talked about precedent because several of the homeowners talked about precedent um I don't think well I don't know what what they think what they believe I I'm I'm hoping that they don't think well it's it's this sets a president president that anybody can just come in and do this now everybody would have to go through the same grueling process that you are what concerns me is that it does I'm trying to keep from from Coffin it does uh create a desire for homeowners that just give up they think they're protected in this area because of zoning and then we come in and change the zoning on them and they they lose their trust in us they lose the protection that they thought that they have so then they begin to say I'm I'm not staying here anymore I'm going to sell out that that does start um the ball rolling call it a predent and then and then we lose the rural nature of of this area the people that live here should be able to trust government that what they thought they could depend on um is not going to be changed the homeowner currently has a right to build four houses they should be able to do that um they have the privilege to do what they're doing and coming in come in and ask for a zoning change um at at the entitlement phase it's really hard for me with any Consciousness good Consciousness to say okay I'm going to approve this and hope that we don't end up with flooding hope that we don't end up with a clearcut um but I've learned that I can't um always always depend on that so I'm I'm I'm really struggling with this actually I'm not struggling I just um I can't support it at this point when you and I talked I told you to me it looks like an infill project here's here's houses that are more dense and houses that are less dense this is kind of halfway in between but then again when I looked at the property in person and see the Steep nature of it it's we're heading for a buing problem here and I've I see them all over the county and then I'm blamed for it and until we have a storm water management plan in that area that can say this is an important area around the spring um this is how we deal with it because right now it's it's it's almost out of control uh councilman Johansson yes chairman I'm I'm a little lost it must be lunch where are we in this process are we still in the question period are we in the question period are we in the debate I forget is there a motion I I don't know where we are there I'm still here for questions there hasn't we haven't closed that yet you can he can ask a question he's saying that because I didn't ask a question and so he's calling it to my attention that I'm breaking the rules not breaking the rules just not paying attention I would love to just have one comment Mr chair yes um just as a response and and and and I understand you know you went and visited the site and I most definitely appreciate that and and I and I get it you're you're the county chair you're dealing you're hearing all these stories you're you're you're seeing at firsthand these flooding issues and you're trying to kind of get a handle on it um and we're here saying look we're trying to do this development and here's why we think it makes sense here um and I can appreciate that uh all I can offer to you is look there are old developments that are already Zone R4 all around this site uh that were not developed with any storm water regulations nothing so they all were able to be built with no storm water regulations no tree regulations on 7500 foot lots and they've all gone in right and we're here years later asking for something somewhat similar but with a whole new set of rules and you know I say trust your staff um I say that from my perspective because I know how difficult it is to go through the engineering review process it is not you know as contrary to what some might believe it is not just oh this looks great stamp it and move on um you I made a joke about Tad being a real stickler that wasn't a joke right your your staff in vucha county is unbelievably knowledgeable uh I sit there in in the back of those rooms sometimes and I'm just like you're saying words that I can't even fathom or or start to comprehend they're they're an impressive group of individuals so I I say that you know I'm not saying trust me I'm going through the process I'm I'm putting what I know on the record uh with this application but you've gathered an unbelievably incredible and knowledgeable staff and this is what they do this is what they do for a living and you all voted or your predecessors and put certain standards in place and you said hey staff you all must go out there and Implement these standards if there are any deviations we have to know about it which is how you get variances and waivers and other issues that come forward both the pdrc and sometimes to you special exceptions things of that nature so I understand the hesitancy but there is a very specific process in place and when you go through that process staff reviews it they review it again they review it at least a handful or a dozen times throughout the process and their goal is the same as mine as yours I live here I don't want that to be flooding issues I don't want my house to have a flooding issue just like anybody else which is why we go through a very strict and specific process so I can appreciate that you've dealt with a lot this year and and over the last couple years um and and in other areas and you know you're saying well that the potential for these issues we wouldn't do anything right we wouldn't even get on our car going down the street if there wasn't a potential for us to get in a car accident and so the way we look at it is there is a very strict set of procedures and processes if we follow that your code says we should be allowed to move forward and you and that's why there's a recommendation of approval from your staff and I I can't predict the future you can't predict the future I understand where you're coming from with these issues uh this is a development we we'd appreciate kind of looking at this in the surrounding area rather than talking about flooding that may that has occurred in other issues that that me and you have both seen and and I understand that so I get your perspective and I get that there are possible safety issues with traffic which is why you have such an amazing team here to review those issues and to stop something and not let it move forward if there is an issue and that's what I can offer you okay and I I really appreciate that you you answered a lot of questions that were were in my uh what what I had said to you and I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that perfectly pinpoints my dilemma it's getting really easy to predict the future what have you talked about developments that have been there 60 years they're not flooding they don't flood until the new development goes in with all the new water standards all the fill everything that we require them to do and then the neighborhoods around them flood after that and you're you're saying trust I I trust them that they're going to follow all of the rules that they have to follow all of the exacting standards they're not working and that's and so it makes it easy for me to look at the future and say this this is risky um Michael Dyer sure um if I could I make ask Paulo to come up for a second um starting on page 7 eight of your agenda item you have nine criteria that are to be followed in a resoning whether you deny it or prove it you're going to need comp substantial evidence if if Council would like Paul can run through those because you may have some questions about some of those because you may have different opinions um but those criteria because we're in a quasi judicial setting govern whether you decide to approve or deny this resoning you're not here on a conference of Lan's Amendment so it's not a legislative decision you're here on a quasi judicial decision and I respect that you may have different opinions on that I just wanted if if you could indulge me let Paula just run through those nine quickly if you have any questions on if any of those grab your attention please feel free to ask and you would have to meet all nine sure so this is this is a standard for um uh this is the standard for rezoning application so fundamentally there's there's um two things uh one is is the general uh which we're just going to call Snider rule um so that is how you analyze rezonings um it's it's not legislative in nature it is based on competent substantial evidence um on whether or not the applicant has has demonstrated you know the relevance standard that they meet all the criterias that's nine criteria um if they meet all that criteria and they're and they are compliant with the comprehensive plan that doesn't mean that you have to um approve it um you can deny it if keeping the existing zoning serves a legitimate public purpose um and legitimate public purpose is essentially does it create a spot zoning situation um you know is it incompatible with the area but um this is the application of rules you are here not not in your legislative capacity you are here for the application of the evidence to the rules so you know has there been comp substantial evidence such that the applicant has met you know all these criteria which we'll go through one um whether it's consistent with the all adopted elements of the comprehensive plan you have your staff recommendation but overall that's based on on the element you know it's impact on the environment or the natural resources is with the rezoning you know that's where you're your avoidance and minimization standards kind of come in um its impact upon the economy of any uh uh affected area you know is it is it detrimental to this is your main compatibility standard um analysis analysis is it detrimental to the the area such that you know both uses can't coexist over a prolonged period of time um number four is your concurrency standards which you know for for this the you know they've demonstrated their um uh compliance with concurrency and you've heard the statements about the school it's kind of D Minimus um number five is any changes or circumstances in the affected area that would generate a rezoning that's really a spot zoning or reverse spot zoning analysis um and is there you know any mistakes in the original area um it's effect upon the user value of the affected area again that's number seven um that's also a comp compatibility analysis um compatibility doesn't mean the same it's like I said it just kind of means can those two uses coexist over prolong period of time um it's impact upon the public health safety we safety or morals that's kind of discussion you're having about the um the topography issue with the with the road safety issue that's not a capacity that's okay you know how are they going to solve this this or how are they going to address this issue that's going to come later down on the engineering process um and then you have your property rights considerations where you know Florida statute kind of mandates you have to take these property rights um into account for making your decisions so if you have any questions about you know how those those so those are the four the the considerations you're supposed to go through if you have any questions about that I can kind of answer them and kind of lead you on okay what exactly does this standard mean okay before before we move on does anybody have any questions for attorney Paulo yes David Santiago so I understand you went through the criterias and what you're telling us um is that we have to consider those criterias whether to approve or deny the requests based on competent substantial evidence right yes can you define what competent substantial evidence sure comp substantial evidence is that evidence a reasonable mind would um consider to be uh well I have this memorized um that would lead tend towards the um the uh it it's what a reasonable person would rely on to arrive at a conclusion so it's not it's not you know if you if you've watched any um uh lawyer shows they have that you know beyond beond A Reasonable Doubt watched right so it's it's it's kind of a low low pretty low so it's like okay is it nonp speculative evidence is it factual evidence you know what's the basis of it and does it tend does it lead toward the conclusion you're going to does it help in the analysis so opinions of uh something is dangerous for example you know without something to back that up doesn't don't rise the level of comp substantial evidence state about decrease in property value so so anyone can say that however you need to have a factual basis of that opinion you know is is are you a realtor are you a property appraiser you know were there specific comps those kinds of things so so um in terms of lay testimony or citizens speaking you know acceptable comp substantial evidence are you know what is the existing traffic pattern people generally have a pretty good idea of how fast you know Vehicles travel how big busy a road is how you know how how dense a neighborhood is like kind of neighborhood feel so those are comp substantial evidence um it does not rise to the level of giving expert opinions you know oh the congestion is going to be bad because those those are require um you know a level of expertise that nor a normally person doesn't have unless they predicate it on on background information and in that in this analysis that we have to to do in making a decision is um site design something of a criteria for us to consider it it depends because um I guess on number eight so criteria number eight it's impact upon the public health safety or morals um you know that's that's whether or not there's evidence that you know that leads towards okay if you rezone this property does it have a material effect on the on public health safety and morals um that the site design process will dictate itself but you're just looking at whatever the site design is with the with the allowance of the use itself you know implicate that health safety at morals issue okay so Paulo can correct me on it but I think what you're asking is it'd be more of just a 20,000 foot approach more General rather than getting into the details of what you're St is charged to apply in Your Land Development regulations and if if agree Pary is unhappy with that they can appeal to this Council if they feel staff arrived at the wrong decision so compatibility of you know if you reone this property and you believe it's not compatible with a neighboring property that could arguably if you had convential of it it's Fallen one of these criteria so that would be a much higher level conclusion than at the Land Development stage where you may say I'm unhappy with the location of this driveway you're not there now because I don't know we don't know what that outcome would be but you could have concerns that could fit within a criteria if you had the evidence thank you thank you Mr chair Jake Johansson I had questions I guess I can ask them of of Paulo um the the traffic issue brought up earlier you're talking about the the the one um stipulation that we're talking about here that the traffic is something that already exists people are already speeding uh the the hills to um too hard to navigate um and and so that's something that that we really can't hold has had something we can hold against this proposed subdivision well this it already exists it's not going to go away whether they're there or not right yes the the question is okay would would rezoning it um you know make that situation worse uh you know they are required to to meet the um their site access and provide safe access to to their property yeah but but not not approving it that problem's not going to go away people are still speeding down that road correct okay right um um and the two other questions for for you or clay um school school parking not our problem right where where's my kid going to park that was a issue that's that's really not not an issue and and um and the other one about um traffic during school hours arrival and departure um uh one of my biggest frustrations here in Valia county is that people don't use the buses the buses are empty and we all Drive our kids to school um so either get rid of the buses or or start putting your kids on it but I I believe that if we used uh buses and and we car pulled more often and did things of that nature uh traffic wouldn't be an issue and and we've already indicated that the addition of this wouldn't really raise the traffic issue correct according to kimley Horn they're basic in terms of capacity standard it's it's 10 houses for right just to help through the discussion what you're asking about is concurrency that's part of the criteria that we're looking at it is blushie County has specific restrictions on development such that you have to make sure you have adequate capacity when we look at it we look at water sewer storm water roads Etc when you're at the level of a zoning as uh Mike referenced just a few seconds ago we're at 20,000 F feet so what we're looking at is we're seeing a conceptual plan that was submitted it's not necessary as a matter of fact for this type of resoning we look at the change from what are four homes allowed by right right now to a theoretical maximum of 16 because even though they're saying they're only going to put 10 we have to look at what the theoretical maximum could be and so then that's when you start going to the school board the school board implements their own concurrency right they did a review of it they did a review based on a limitation of 10 they said there's not an issue because the amount was so small it will not have a significant impact on the schools that are in that zone then as far as roads go we again did the same analysis there was a question about an on-site situation your County engineer has gone out there and said yes there is and they will either have to address it and access onto Blues Blue Spring or access Live Oak those are going to be decisions that have to be resolved not necessarily through the rezoning but through the site development got it I have one more question and while you're there um there is no doubt that our county has flooding issues um and and my question now is is and well maybe it shouldn't be to you but um that area must flush water down the hill to begin with right now based on the based on the topographical I wouldn't think it would stay up there even even though it's all gr grass there are as has been referenced uh in our lar that's included in the uh staff report it shows a definite change in the grade there's also very Sandy soils in that area so it does have well- drained soils um and so when you look at it you can see that um the area basically drains back to the South there are some currently some sink holes located on that property where the uh cell towers located at where those are probably receiving some of these Waters but yes they would have to go through and verify that all the water coming onto the site and leaving the site now cannot be altered in the developed stage could not altered so so does that mean uh if they develop it that that they can't retain more than that property already retains or can they retain more they can retain more so it could get better I'm not saying it will right it it could if they retain more than currently is there because of the sandy soil and the flow down to the South yes sir okay thank you that's all I have for questions I'm looking forward to debate Danny robins go these are just going to be strictly yes or no so lucky you is this compatible with the Uli currently yes sir okay is this compatible with the current land use currently yes sir is this compatible with the current comp plan currently yes sir is this compatible with the current developmental pattern currently yes sir um and just so I'm correct does the preconstruction um storm water have to match the post uh construction storm water yes sir okay with that being said I'd like to get the debate uh motion to approve for discussion only at this point second Johansson Santiago have a motion we have a motion to approve by Danny Robbins and a second by David Santiago for purposes of discussion missus thank you thank you for your patience and uh thank you to the residents as well um sitting here long enough uh here in the last three years to to to go through this a couple times um uh through this and um some of these arguments that are being made or or non-arguments these obviously if they were uh indeed um noticeable problems there's been about three years since my my tenure here and the Chairman's tenure here to address these in a manner uh through State Building regulations through our own local regulations uh I know we've adopted them in the uh in the P because of flooding to reduce the flooding and there's a big difference between your property getting wet natural house flooding there's actually very little when you compare the number of residents here to the actual home flooding there's a very minimal amount of that actually occurring uh in Valia County minimal when you compare to the residents of close to 600,000 people uh and all that can be uh sorted out but at some point we will have to uh look at the fact of if in these quasi judicial um settings like this is holding the electeds uh um accountable for their actions and for uh the speech that they engage in because none of us really up here I would say are experts uh don is an expert in law um you know Matt I would say is an expert in uh maybe Correctional stuff uh just because of his his his 30 plus years in that in that field but very few of us us are experts to make um some of these statements that are more opinions than anything and at some point homeowners people are going to have to hold electeds unfortunately I hate to do this but accountable because of the liability of slap suits uh that that this uh community and taxpayers is going to be faced with when we are hit with this because we are out of bounds in my opinion we must follow the law and and I it brought up specific questions okay to our more than qualified staff who are experts all right that have given us this information we are way out of bounds when it comes to decision- making here is there is there some flooding issues absolutely whose fault is it I don't know because the tables can be turned in this whole scenario why is it okay if this theory is correct of of of of water flooding other people out that means that everyone else's home in all these areas are flooding out some somebody but people still still do have rights to to to do certain things if there's consistency and if they meet the criteria set by the government and if elected officials don't like that what have they done to change it if that is an indeed an issue and not a political issue okay the end of the day it is you know that that's where I'm at uh I want to see all this stuff addressed these are valid concerns all these folks are having valid concerns I'm not going to uh disparage that all that is taken care of by the book through our wet blanket policy that we have in this community in in Valia County when it comes to any type of development it's it's it's asinine what what an ordinary person has to go through to do anything in Valia County but yet if it's you know we we hear all this stuff but we're not getting any suggestions on how to fix some of these um uh issues you can understand my frustration I can almost understand yours and I understand theirs as well but uh we have to follow the rules that are in place if if uh my to my colleagues if you don't like the rules come to the table with a resolution thank you understood thank you Don Don Dempsey yeah I generally would parrot everything you're saying Danny and na I I know we met before and I was a lot more optimistic in my discussions with you because I generally on paper this seems like a wonderful project it seems like a logical Choice until you go out there and um I'm telling you I may not be an expert in traffic engineering but in 34 years of practicing law I've done a lot of uh traffic homicide cases I've prosecuted defended a lot of serious bodily injury accident cases a lot of fatalities and um even cases on this road and um I'm telling you I mean standing there at live o I don't know if you guys could put this up it's standing right here this is live o this is where you're proposing the alternate entrance would be to this site this is standing let me see if I can get Live Oak on here for you so you can validate that this is in fact Live Oak and not outside of Troy's house all right there we go so there's Live Oak so this is what you're proposing will be the main entrance into the subdivision if the center entrance doesn't work the center entrance I would purport see that little fire hydrant up there on the left you can see a dark circle back that Hine on the west side I'm sorry point of order can you hold up a second Mr Robins has a point of order chairman that that question and and Don this not to step on you but that question's been asked and answered I count it at least six times this is only a preliminary um sketch uh of of what can happen but we're we're beating a dead horse chairman thank you well this is debate right so that's where I'm headed to debate so I this is standing here it was three seconds this letter submitted by Sergeant David Barnes said as he was standing in that same location in 30 minutes um we observed several traffic stops of speeders over 47 mes an hour also within this time time frame we observed a vehicle on West Blue Springs cresting this hill traveling west that caused uh obstructed the view of I'm sorry the hill obstructed it let me go back within this time frame we observed a vehicle in West attempt to make a turn South onto live o this in the picture okay the hill obstructed the view of other vehicles traveling west which caused numerous vehicles to have to break abruptly almost resulting in an accident this isn't a 30-minute window this is my concern this is this is my concern not the flooding so much cuz I believe it's an issue but I can't I don't have the knowledge to sit there and say no just because of flooding but this concerns me because I'm not saying that 10 more houses isn't going to be a major fact I agree 10 houses in and of itself is not going to affect the general flow on Blue Springs okay I get it it's very the Minimus but there's only eight houses on Live Oak that I can see from the aerial so now if we're going from eight houses on live o to now we're going to have up to 16 more houses using live o as an access point to the subdivision now we're going from eight homes using live o as an access to get home to 24 now we're tripling the amount of traffic onto live o so that means in this place is very busy in the mornings because the school was right up over this hill you make it there's the school and that young lady said that all these cars when they're dropping their kids off they have to go eastbound looking up this hill so you have all these cars pulling up if you have the one car who's coming westbound towards us in the picture and having to make a left to get on to Live Oak and you've got stacking or you got all this traffic blocking that vehicle trying to turn south from the westbound Lane with which is what the officer is describing that he saw in just 30 minutes now you're tripling the amount of cars potentially they're going to be turning southbound onto Live Oak now you've got that many more instances where there's a car stopped on Westbound Blue Springs as it's waiting to turn South and all these cars cresting the hill going westbound on Blue Springs that's my concern if this entrance was 100 yards to the west or 100 yards to the east East I would have an entirely different position here but the fact that it's only 3 seconds from When you crush that hill to where the car in front of you turning left onto Live Oak is sitting waiting to make its left turn and you have that reaction time and if those two cars ahead behind this car manage to stop then you got the third car cresting the hill I mean you got stacking and that's what they're describing um here in this officer uh or this de Deputy barnes's letter and that's my concern so it's not that we're adding a DI minimouse Springs I'm saying that we're tripling the amount of left turns from westbound traffic to live o and that's going to be that many more standing Vehicles Sitting Ducks potentially on live o That's the danger thanks Jake Johansson thank you sir I just want to clarify as I understand this is that this request is is to go to R4 they could have as many as 16 they want 10 but it might be less than that even even then it might be four it might be five it might be six the location of the exit as I understand it might be anywhere there could be a location for an exit it's not on lioke where you said it was it's not on West Blue spring where you said it was it could be anywhere it could be anywhere yes wherever it's designed no listen folks I'm talking now so what I understand is that all they're asking for is to go to R4 that's all they're asking for and they showed us a pretty picture they did not they did not tell us where the exit will be they did not tell tell us where they're going to leave the complex Ted told us that he's not going to let them build and and put us in danger he told us that he might even shave down that Hill a little bit which leads me to believe that the developer would pay for some of that which I'm which I'm happy about too all all the these questions and this concern that we've had are concerns all the concerns that the Public's had are concerns but that's not what we're here for as I understand it we're here to see if we should go from RR to R4 and then let staff the people who have been trained to answer the mail and make sure it's right if we want reports on how it's done because it's in our district I'm sure staff would be willing to do that but I the what if scenario we're we're in another position with a different development we're we're way we're putting the cart way ahead of the horse in in my opinion here um um and and I share the same concerns but until I see big paper with lots of detail I'm I'm not going to comment on what could happen because I'm not sure it's going to happen thank you sir David Santiago thank you Mr chairman well said Jake I agree with everything you you said there but uh I just wanted to maybe address a little bit uh don what you said um I know you said the 16 number which will never happen let's just you know I know they have to do that because it has to go what's the maximum allowed based on the the zoning classification so 16 don't never happen but I don't know if you recall from the questions I was asking the attorney's applicant the applicant's attorney and it looked like based on the trip Generations that they discovered or they research on the traffic analysis was maybe four more additional than what's entitled in the peak hour four more than what's entitled on the property today and I know you mentioned you referenced the police the sheriff's deputies stu um his observations or two deputies that's today that means there's a problem there already right and I I think I think it's safe to say that it's something that needs to be addressed irregardless of this development maybe it's something that we need to do so I wouldn't hold this particular project hostage because they're going to add four more additional peak hour trips to a road or area that we have to address anyway and I'm confident with the statements that Tad has made I'm confident with our staff I think they've heard it here they'll apply a proper standard to make sure um whatever happens there is going to be done right and then we need to solve the safety issue in the long run so I I I don't know if it I think it should be engaged I think it's in your District right I think yeah so I get it um four more trips in the peak hour is not going to make or break that problem which we need to address regardless that's just how I feel I wanted to share that my thoughts well Don Dempsey okay yeah well four more instances a day of a car sitting in the middle of traffic on a blind Hill may prove to be just the one that does the most damage the other thing that I would say is if you look if we could share this picture here Jake the spot that I was referring to this live is the most safe entrance and access through this this is a 3 seconds the on the pictures we were given of the proposed entrance and uh exit is where that fire hydron is from there it's only like a second and a half reaction time so that in that letter written by uh the Sheriff's Office saying I believe that if this same scenario occurred with a resident attempting to turn into the perspective driveway which is in the middle by the fire hydrant if the same scenario occurred while a resident was attempting to turn into a prospective driveway this would result in a vehicle collision this isn't Don Dempsey again that's just a picture of where that exit could be let's let he's talking chairman yeah he's looking at me and talking to me okay either control it or don't control it I'm controlling it you can speak when he's done all you has to do is put your name up okay so all I'm saying is Jake that um the the fact that I'm mentioning lioc is because I in the agenda briefing in my meeting with uh Nikki uh Na I'm sorry Nik um this was proposed to me because I had this concern then and uh this was given to me as the alternate Ingress and egress into the subdivisions because it is apparently much safer than the one given to us in the in the drawings and that's my concern and I think this Sergeant Barnes has the same concern and you know we all talk about trusting staff we got to trust staff well I trust staff but I also trust the pdrc you know we appointed them and they said no to this so it's it's easy to sit here and say trust staff but then we're going to poo poo everything that comes out of the pdrc from now on you know I trust them as well so just because we have staff's recommendation we don't have the pdc's recommend Commendation and just because I'm siding with pdc's recommendation and not staff's I should I don't think that makes me the villain here it's just um I I the water thing I don't know but the I do believe that this traffic thing could be very dangerous in the future if more cars even if it's four more cars a day if they encounter this high traffic flow to the East and as they're waiting for the you know the car that's westbound is waiting to turn in after all the eastbound traffic trffic clears up while it's sitting there to make that left turn this car come crusting that Hill is going to either have a second and a half or 3 seconds to go from 47 miles an hour to stopping that's my concern and you know and I think you know that happened to me coming out that happened while this Deputy was there for 30 minutes he saw it so it's it's a real issue and like I said if this was 100 yards to the west or 100 yards to the east I'd be completely in favor of it it's just this Crest on the hill and I don't know how the county proposes to move a mountain to get rid of this hill but I just don't know I'd like to be able to review it one more time and just for it to leave leave us here today and say okay we'll trust staff they may very well just approve it the way they're approving it now and they don't even know what the plan is to improve the safety I haven't heard I haven't heard anything about how we're going to fix this it's just uh you know we'll figure it out but that's not enough for me right now not with this safety issue thanks thank you Jake Johansson I'm sorry Troy Troy Ken was ahead of you I I don't mind yielding to Jake because he was mentioned and then I'll go after Jake okay thank you uh couple clarifications the exit has not there is no exit so you're saying you wanted 100 yard to the east or 100 yards to the west of nothing the the exit you see on that picture is just a picture it's not exactly where it's going to be correct do do you understand I want I want I I want to understand chairman that that he understands that that is not where it's going to be give me a thumbs up or a thumbs down uh Don's asking can you respond Troy would you yield to Don for Don go ahead and respond and then I'll the time just to answer his qu anywhere within the 300 feet of Frontage is bad regardless of where they put it anywhere in there copy now I understand you thank you and uh the the second point is uh um plrc did not deny it it was tied and therefore sent to us as a denial because it was tied thank you sir you're welcome wh which is a denial Troy Kim thank you chairman as I be begin my comments uh Mr casbeer can you can you come up here for a moment I didn't ask any questions and you keep my time going it's okay uh to answer your question Don you're not the villain you're in my eyes you're not and I don't think in anybody's eyes I respect your advocacy for safety in this area there's a ton of Common Sense responses I've heard over here as far as the number of units and that this isn't creating the problem can you briefly because I only have uh four and a half minutes left can you brief briefly tell us some traffic calming solutions that can be put in this area because I I've seen them uh be extremely successful in other parts of our County and in the city of Warman Beach please 30 second rundown all right 30 seconds go all right one of the first items I'd recommend would be a speed table in an area like this the the one I really prefer at this point is to get rid of the hump one that won't slow people down so much it will actually improve the sight distance uh overall uh really what you're doing is just cutting that section out lowering that road section so you'll have a little bit of slope on the outside it's common everywhere else in the country where they uh have actual Hills as opposed to little bumps like we do so uh we don't do it very often but we should so those are things turn Lanes would also help with that because you're changing uh where the drivers are thank you you you helped me whenever you said speed tables plural because you could have you could have a couple of those not just one but a couple of them with uh signage and blinking lights for it I've SE I've seen that in multiple places in Orman Beach and then my the last 30 seconds here that I'll use Mr rectenwald if this gets voted up or this gets voted down it sounds like this is a problematic area I I would respectfully request that your very capable traffic engineering team and your your department make sure that something is done here to help with traffic calming thank you you got my Assurance thank you councilman Robbins thank you Mr Kent you were going exactly where where I was going there's just for my law enforcement experience and I was on the traffic unit for years and and wrote wrote hundreds if not thousands of tickets uh for this kind of related stuff and and addressed a multitude of speed and Hazard situations uh that we were tasked to to enforce there's rumble strips there's the speed tables caution lights we can put out radar signs you know slow down signs flashing signs and and also too a great uh remedy to a lot of the um maybe causers of this since uh uh signs are just a um a deterrent is law enforcement we have a great relationship with the sheriff it takes 5 Seconds to write an email you'll get a you'll get a response back from the sheriff probably within five minutes uh can you talk a little bit about Stealth stat stealth stat where they they set that up and they keep track of what the speeds are there there's all sorts of those traffic studies uh they'll put that black strip across the the highway to monitor speed time and distance uh and all that stuff that that Mr Ken's uh talking about but all that stuff uh can be tracked through the law enforcement there's mechanisms in place to to to address this and moving on to the plr DC we addressed uh we talked briefly of the personal gun range that that's not going anywhere impacts on Wildlife uh the flooding we've addressed that air pollution and and what may uh and the requirements to to possibly connect to the utilities so you know all this stuff 's a process for this to be addressed I think we're getting a little into the weeds with it I understand it's a valid concerns and and and whatnot but I I just want to make sure that we stay within our uh boundaries is to not create additional liability to uh the taxpayers and the citizens and also the residents out there but but Don you're not you're not a villain and I wasn't trying to step on you earlier but we've all talked and had multiple bites at this apple we just need to follow the rules a little bit better that's all thank you uh don you're not the villain I'll I'll be glad to be the the villain I'm really not glad to be it but um I think you're right having been there and you look at the two roads I don't see a good exit or entrance I don't see where it could be put unless the road is cut down like uh tad just said and then I don't know who pays for that I would assume the developer the Builder would pay for it not the taxpayers um I'm got to go back to flooding you said you weren't sure that flooding would be an issue and um um I I guess I am and the reason I am is because I I've been there I've looked at the property but I've looked at properties all over valua County you can look at this this property um if you put uh page 721 back on there's a reason it's not flooding now it's heavily treed it's got natural vegetation there's there's natural mulch there it's deep sand and so when it rains even heavy rains the the soil absorbs it when you move take away that vegetation and you create impervious soil through the through driveways homes there's less soil area to absorb the water we see it over and over again the reason that I'm I sound so certain when I say that is because I go somewhere every day usually two or three places every single day and look at flooding in this County not just in West valua not just at JC's um new samna Orman Beach I'm I'm all over and I'm not seeing wet front Lawns I'm seeing people's houses that have been destroyed from from water intrusion and so I think we have to be really careful that's why um until we have a storm water management plan based on the Watershed study I don't know how we're expected to vote um for these things but I I'm I can't I can't support this for those two reasons the safety issues and the potential of of flooding and before I'm called on um you're not an an expert um I have been studying soils um since I was in college and since 1979 I've been a soil consultant um for Kenzie agriculture services and I look at soils all over this County and outside of the county from from Palm Coast to Longwood and I've got a pretty good understanding um especially if you go to Palm Coast if you want to look at flooding problems um so it's uh it's a tremendous concern this is not fair to the people that live in this neighborhood that think they have a protection with the current zoning that we may vote to take away um it's not compatible with the area uh David Santiago thank you Mr chair I entrust our staff to address this traffic issue and with that Mr chair I call the question okay uh there's nobody else up to talk anyway um Chrissa green would you please call the the role and the the um motion on the floor is to approve uh the zoning change the motion was by Danny Robbins the second was by David Santiago Mr dimsey no Mr Johansson yes Mr Kent yes Mr Reinhardt yes Mr Robbins yes Mr Santiago yes Mr Brower no and the motion passes 5 to2 thank you all for your time thank you okay we'll give everybody a chance to switch here you ready you good yes sir okay that takes us to item nine contract with Paul Culver Construction Inc for professional construction management and general contracting services for the International Speedway Boulevard beach access improvements good afternoon Mr chair council members Ben Bartlett of valuch County Public Works director uh before you today is a uh Part B of our for our Construction contract for the improvements to our International Speedway Boulevard ramp um the photo you see above is the current condition of the ramp um the next photo is the conceptual plan that was approved uh a few years ago by Council [Music] um construction budget was just over $2.3 million we've brought in as part of this part B a guaranteed maximum price of $2.6 million uh we do have an option as a potential cost reduction of around $384,000 to eliminate the uh colored concrete and aesthetic portion of the the ramp itself um as you can see in the conceptual plan uh part of the reason we included that initially was if you look at the intersection there of A1A and ISB there are some pavers that were installed as part of a street skate project uh quite a few years ago and we were looking to match that aesthetic as part of the do's Uh current project that they have going on of the improvements of the ISB uh corridor from the bridge to A1A those will go away we've confirmed that with the dot and and and they sent us the plans that show those papers being removed colored concrete is very expensive uh as you can see and we wanted to bring that uh to your attention as a possible cost-saving measure should you choose uh staff recommends approval of the part B of this contract and we uh would like to hear your direction on whether or not you'd like to see us uh remove the colored concrete portion of this contract happy to answer any questions okay let's do questions first for Mr Bartlett uh Troy do you have questions for him I don't just have comments Matt thank you I did have one question we had talked briefly about it before there are some businesses that are right there and um one of which was a new business that just moved in there within the last year and his concern of course was parking and there is an issue where uh he actually had homeless that were parking in his parking spaces which we've addressed with law enforcement um and I was glad to see that but during construction two questions first one during construction will there be somewhere to accommodate the parking for those businesses so they don't suffer or may not be I don't know yeah I mean as you can see you know we're we're completely redoing those parkings from parallel to to uhic so we'll work with the local businesses best we can to minimize the impact that's uh on the South Side the the only entrance to the boardwalk in is also off this ramp so that's part of the issue you know maintaining he's doing construction there too right correct so there's a lot a lot going on in this Corridor um it's kind of one of these rip the Band-Aid off get it all done but um we'll work with those business owners as best we can to make sure we're not impacting their business and the other question I have with respect to boardwalk in doing their Construction ction at the same time I know that we're trying to coincide this with fdot's redo of that road will that be immediately following uh because they've already they're already involved how soon before that would as Boardwalk or no this this whole project we're ready to go um so would it all be at the same time because there might be there'll be an overlap for sure and then I think ours might there will be an overlap okay so it will be pretty pretty quick then that's good okay thank you and I kind of like the but I can understand the cost uh so what is f dot going to leave in that intersection there's not there's not going to be a roundabout there's going to be lights new lights signalized intersection asphalt um and just black asphalt correct and uh crosswalk pavement Market uh Jake Johansson yeah Ben can I have a I like the color we kind of chatted a little bit about it um I'm interested to know what the what the value add it is whether you can give it or um or um col construction can give it is it does it does it play into marketing does it play into Economic Development does it you know what what what are our people think about initially we were we were looking to match the existing Aesthetics of the intersection and that kind of Blue Wave um you know it is the entrance feature for uh the primary Beach ramp for so many of our visitors it's got the the famous world's most famous Beach sign and all that so you know the thought was in addition to the improvements that were you know give it a an aesthetic look to it um in you know try to match what was there but obviously that's going away so I'm I'm surprised that that our our marketing folks and our Bob Davis's and you know all those folks uh in in that that hotel haven't chimed in and said anything to us so um I I I guess I'm indifferent if they if they are so thank you County Manager George reonal yeah I just point out uh the picture looks good from you know uh 10,000 ft looking down I'm not so sure what you pick up when you're actually down at street level and the other part just from my experience is uh wet sand and stuff will travel up so the the Eastern quarter of it uh will likely have a lot of sand uh on it of course we sweep and everything but throughout the day so I'm not sure what we gain out of it by having it so it's why I think we're uh supporting probably removing the uh blue concrete I think our colors are red and white anyway okay you you needed two things from us we we need to uh approve the expenditure you also need direction on whether or not we take out the let's let's deal with that first if we take out the blue pavers chairman can I have my comments first you is that okay you can I didn't see you up there before U I was there first I just didn't have a question I just had comments okay go ahead thank you chairman so Council this was I had very few questions for staff this week but this this was one I had because of the price tag I didn't like the price tag I don't like the price tag but after Mr reonal and I spoke you know there's a lot more to this than me meets the eye this is this is a a huge major redo uh to an area that certainly needs it so I'm I'm going to deal with this price and this and this cost as far as the colored concrete I am okay with taking it out um whenever whoever did this in the past when they're first done they look great but you know I drive this area from time to time and if my memory is correct where that sun is there's like some sunken in pavers and they're not fixed and when it's not fixed it doesn't look right when they do fix it I've actually seen where they don't even come in and try to match the design they had they just put black top in there and I'm like what are you doing like how could how could this how could you have this this beautiful Motif that you have and then all of a sudden you're just going to fill it in with with black top that would be my concern down the road with this colored concrete so I'm with saving some money and not doing the colored concrete and that's where I am on this okay we're dealing with the colored concrete first uh so let's give him a decision on that Matt Reinhardt I'd like to make a motion to not just do away with the color concrete I think that was a valid point that the uh manager brought up okay a motion to admit the colored concrete second by councilman Reinhardt second by Troy Kent any questions or debate about that all in favor of admitting the colored concrete say I I I and the opposed and motion carries six to zero we'll ask on when he comes in okay so now we move to the uh approving the um full expenditure of uh the figure now will be 2 mil3 100 some thousand uh 2279 990 okay roughly motion to approve motion to approve the expenditure by uh Matt Reinhardt second second by Troy Kent we're going to wait for him Don there's a motion on the floor uh we had a motion and a vote to uh to remove the colored pavers and save the 300,000 would you like to vote on that yes or no yes yes so that vote was 7 to zero and now the motion on the floor is uh to uh approve the expenditure which is now 2.27 million um all in uh you have public participation for we do have public participation and did you want to speak to this too okay uh John Nicholson John Nicholson dayon Beach Beachside as you remember uh last year the roundabout thanks to Billy they it's no longer going in but what happens is when you redo this this is our major entrance all right this is your major entrance and your biggest money if you don't pass what you're doing uh your biggest Money Maker all right it is also at the end of what we're doing now we're after 40 years we've been planning on doing uh ISB it is in the process now this is the end of ISB before you hit the water so it is going to be a Major Impact for us all right the problem is if if you had the roundabout there would be certain problems there are certain problems now getting cars onto the beach what you've done is you've moved and made that stackup area shorter and narrower so fewer care cars can be east of A1A that's my problem all right by turning the cars um diagonal or from diagonal uh or perpendicular whatever you want to call it you're taking space off the roadway all right you're taking away a lane even though we're not using two lanes anymore because it's only access onto the beach you can't come on and off so you're going to use two lanes to get onto the beach I my recommendation is three or four lanes to get onto the beach because fdot when it does it it does it at the average over the year and we are a tourist destination that the same amount of people don't show up every day of the year Bike Week race week spring break summer vacation the numbers go drastically High more people use the beach during the summer than they do during the winter surprise so the numbers are going to go up but fdot doesn't care they only do it for the minimum so I'm asking when you look at this to look at the number of cars you can stack on the other side of a A1A between the beach and A1A there are ways with the Boost that you have now to have cars coming and going so one person can do this car and then while that car is pulling away that other car is already sitting there and can collect from this side so you get twice as number of cars that you would normally have so you can get four lanes with two people so you're not increasing the number of people just the amount of cars that can enter and can be stacked up so I'm asking you to at least on that part to look carefully at what you're doing thank you very much thank you um Matt Reinhardt I was just gonna let Mr bartler respond if that's okay because I saw his head yes so we have um two lanes coming in as we do now um we have changed the parallel to perpendicular part of that was to get a handicap space put in um we actually have more staff backing because we're shifting um the the interactions with the uh tolls to the East and going to the automation we'll have that process sped up and we do during our high volume days have what we call Walkers where we if people are paying cash or they got to pay and and speak to a human being they can actually pull on the beach and and we can add staff to accommodate that and and we're very cognizant of the stacking concern at not just this ramp but other high volume ramps so we will be working to make sure that that is Thea that those cars are able to get on the beach as quick as possible thank you for that um just one last comment for me and if I'm if I'm wrong please correct me but I don't believe that with this price tag we've only removed the colored papers the bathroom still being moved um a good distance the Landscaping doesn't change we just the only thing that's changed is the colored papers correct you're 100% correct okay any other uh comments debate then the motion on the floor is to approve the 2.27 U million contract with Paul Culver construction all in favor say I I any opposed and motion carries 7 zero thank you uh item 10 storm Water Utility Fund program update Ben Bartlett and staff all right we swapping out some folks real quick um good afternoon again Ben Barlett Public Works director um we had a discussion last year at Council about the storm water program and the uh utility the storm water utility rate fee that's charged uh Council directed staff to to move forward with a study of our program as well as the utility rates and bring that back uh for for you all to review uh quickly starting off just a brief history of the storm Water Utility Fund in vucha County it was originally uh implemented in 1993 uh in 2005 uh storm water utility rate study was performed uh which recommended uh an initial rate of $6 per eru uh maximum $8 per eru um in 07 we did a public works department wide efficiency study which led to the creation of the drainage task team up to that point various divisions throughout the county had a had a drainage component to them we brought that all Under One Roof which we called the drainage task team and it currently resides at uh rad and Bridge um in 2018 we did an efficiency study or we updated the efficiency study and had that same consultant come in and take a look and one of the things they noted uh specifically with a lot of our operations Crews is that we were accomplishing more work with less equipment less dollars and the same number of employees um last year we had the discussion because the 5year forecast show was showing a budget deficit in the storm water utility at the current rate this Council approved an increase from $6 to $6.50 per eru per month and as I said earlier directed us to come back with study so real quick part of when you look at any kind of rate study of any kind of program like this you're you're you're talking level of service we have four components to our uh to our UT storm water utility program program management Regulatory Compliance operation maintenance and our Capital Improvement plan um currently a brief overview an a is basically fully funded um you know from we are doing everything right we're fully PR V ative maintenance on our on our onm our Capital program is fully funded and we're using uh Capital money from our storm water utility to fund the entirety of those projects um in the rate study the recommended level of service for our our program is a level of service B and I'm going to get into each of the individual segments here and where we're at and where we need to be first up is program management we've had a discussion uh two items ago storm water uh uh Watershed Basin studies storm water master plan you can use those interchangeably um we have 16 distinct watersheds throughout the county 11 of those have had some sort of uh Basin study performed um basically when you do a basin study or Watershed analysis you the consultant will go in they will look at um the outfalls where the water goes what's the anticipated rainfall in those areas they look at current land use future land use they'll even take into account if there's uh development that's permitted and and but hasn't been built yet and what they're looking to do through modeling and investigation into the area is using lidar and and looking at all those different aspects of the Topography is to find where are the issues where's the flooding occurring where's the water quality issues um originally when our program was developed the focus was on flooding in the last 10 or 15 years the focus has shifted to water quality you know we've uh looked at we've have impaired water bodies the regulations have increased now moving forward when you do a watershed analysis you're looking at not just flooding not just water quality you're looking at both and you're looking at projects that can address those issues so as I said before um The Watershed analysis that we've done some of those are fairly old going all the way is back to the 9s currently the uh analysis and the in the rate study puts us at a level of service C the recommendation is a level of service B um the plan would be moving forward to get to that B level would be to perform two Watershed analysis storm water uh Basin management uh excuse me storm Water Analysis plans twice a year two of them a year either updates or create the ones that haven't been looked at yet Regulatory Compliance so this is uh the second section of our utility basically this is uh what we do to ensure that we're meeting all the current regulatory requirements either through our mpds Municipal separate storm sewer system permit ms4 is what we call it that's a lot to get out um it also means that we have to comply with all the tmdl requirements we have 12 adopted tmdls that impact vucha County we have six Basin management action plans that affect Valia County and of course we have the mosquito Lagoon reasonable insurance plan all of those impact vucha County we have obligations that we have to meet and regulatory requirements that we have to abide by and that is part of what we do in the storm water utility the 04 evaluation had I said it was included this portion of it was included in program management we've since broke it out because it's a little more of its own thing with all the the water quality issues um recommended level of service C we're at a level of service B this uh updated rate study recommends that we stay at a level of service B on and M operation maintenance this is maintaining the system that we have the pipes the ditches the inlets all the uh infrastructure in the ground that we need to move storm water and get it where it needs to go and to minimize flooding um I'm sure each and every one of you have sent me a uh request from a citizen pertaining to drainage uh obviously since the the hurricanes folks are concerned and want to make sure their systems are operating properly and then the 04 evaluation we were to level service C we have improved that to a level of service B and I would like to note in ' 09 when we combined and formed the drainage task team we had 52 full-time equivalent positions in the drainage task team we're currently just over 54 we have some split funded positions that's why you see the decimal point so in that time frame in 15 years we've increased roughly two positions yet we're doing we're maintaining more assets we're doing more work with roughly the same amount of people how are we doing that we're more efficient we've gotten more efficient and that's how we've a able to improve our level of service and that's how we're able to do that with roughly the same amount of people one thing that the rate study notes is that even though we're roughly the same amount of people Personnel cost of increase salaries have gone up insurance benefits all those things have gone up in those 15 years and in order to M continue to maintain that level of service B which again is routine maintenance inspection based some reactionary you know so that that routine maintenance prevents large problems it prevents us from running around with our hair hair on fire trying to put out you know drainage issues you know with pipes collapsing and things like that so um in order to maintain that level of service B we're going to have to see an increase in Revenue just basically due to Common inflationary pressure finally our Capital Improvement plan the um when when they looked at it in ' 05 we were at a level service D we're still at a level of service D to get to a level service B which again isn't a fully funded Capital Improvement plan it's basically taking the money that we have for Capital and leveraging that money through grants from the ep the state the feds so on to get these storm water projects we have been very successful in doing that um our typical plan for doing a capital project is we get it designed we get it shovel ready whether it's water quality or flooding there's all kinds of money available from the state these days for those kinds of projects if we can develop a project that includes both water quality and flooding we can get we can access both pots of money level of service b means that we're not fully funding these projects with storm water utility money we know as staff at this level of service that we have to go out and be active and get those grants which we've been successful at doing um right now we're looking at roughly $750,000 that we've been spending on Capital in order to get to that uh level of service B costs have gone up especially on construction um we need to spend roughly $2.05 million to get to that level of service for Capital so this is just a summary of where we're at um kind of list the dollar values of where we're at Now versus where we need to be to get to that level of service um and basically you're looking at a total difference of revenue from what's currently anticipated at $5.8 million to 9.1 million this is uh straight out of the budget book this is the current Financial Health with no change in the revenue we're looking at fiscal year 26 where we're basically uh running a deficit in the storm water utility plan so moving forward um at the council's direction currently we're at the $650 eru a monthly rate um based on the maximum that was set back in ' 05 this Council can go to $8 uh per eru without a full public hearing and in order to go above that uh staff would have to notice provide notice on the public hearing and and send out just like you would on any non-ad Valor assessment on your tax bill to go above that $8 happy to answer any questions y'all may have we have the Consultants here that perform the study if you have any technical questions for them thank you uh councilman Johansson I have a comments or not questions I'll wait Joy you have a question I do have one question um the slide you don't have to go back to it but the slide talking about pollutants it made me think back about some information we received from dream green valua with the project that they participate with the city of Holly Hill where they have a device that catches water goat the water goat I you know for me when I when I think about a picture speaking of th000 words that's one that does can you tell us is is that something how feasible would it be for the county to take the lead and Implement a plan like that um in all of you know vu's similar waterways so that we could we could take the lead and hopefully get other cities to jump on board as well so the water goat does a good job of catching litter essentially that yeah yeah um we have installed similar type um the water goats essentially a net that stretches across a ditch um you know it's requires a pretty decent level of Maintenance they go down there they go out there and empty it uh periodically because they they got a permit from us to install it um right and from what I understand they have to do it manually but they have water goats where it's you can do it like automatically yeah we've actually installed what we call baffle boxes which are similar situations where the baffle box um traps the the the the litter but also uh has a filtration in it to remove the nutrients we've installed quite a few of those um we typically focus on uh water outfall pipes and and water bodies where there's no current treatment so that is definitely something that's that's we can look at so Council that's something that I would like for staff to come back with us with a number on what it would cost to imp mement something like that um I'm I'm very interested in that okay uh just a couple other quick questions I think that you said um that if we you need an increase costs have gone up um this is just for unincorporated valua yes correct so I have to pay it correct okay um well you I mean you don't have to pay your taxes but there's consequences that's it's probably a good idea I hate those kind of headlines in the news journal um the did you just say that what you will do going forward that we've had we've got um 16 watersheds you've got 10 studies you're going to do two a year we have 11 studies of the 16 uh the way the uh U way they calculated the cost associated with getting these studies up to date is they're looking at doing two a year so when we do a watershed study that'll generate a series of projects to address water quality flooding or both and then we would use that as kind of a road map to plan our capital from there on out okay do we have an option not to do that doesn't chapter nine of the comp plan it requires us to do those studies and to fund it correct when the utility was implemented in the '90s um one of the they specifically uh the comp plan uh item you're referring to specifically focuses on urban areas U my understanding is at the time this was implemented and that was put in was because we I don't know exactly when DeBerry and Deltona became Incorporated cities but right around that time they were unincorporated areas of the county that were highly urbanized and so those were some of the areas that had flooding you know right continue to have flooding but you're right there are areas now um where there's urbanization that wasn't maybe back then that we probably need to focus on and do a watershed analysis on okay and then my last question is and same on chapter nine of the comp plan uh 9.1.1 point5 it says Valia County shall establish joint working groups composed of the county and its M municipalities for the purpose of coordinating storm water management programs countywide do we have that joint commit well I work with my counter rep reports all the time on storm water I know that uh part of these uh Watershed analysis will include areas that are in corporated and we'll want to work with um those cities in those areas because storm water just doesn't stop at the boundary lines of a city so we'll want to work with those cities in those areas where we're doing the Watershed analysis I don't want to speak for them maybe there's some partnering opportunities on cost or on projects and we've worked with them in the past and we continue to work with them to this day but there's not a formal committee established my knowledge there's not a formal committe it's always been ad hoc so like the Nova Canal for instance which was studied uh back in 2010 we partnered with the city uh and I think in that time it was ourselves uh and the Department of Transportation uh and likely uh Holly Hill uh and possibly Port Orange and the mosquito Lagoon reasonable insurance plan is a group of us Edgewater New samna same same idea they were put together as the Committees are put together on a project basis okay I I believe that you know we are serious about flooding issues but when I read this 9.1.1 point5 sell says that we shall establish a joint working group in the Comm comme should be charged with avoiding duplication so I guess I would just ask that that becomes a a very important part of of what we do here I hate forming a committee for the sake of of having meetings and having but but this is required if I understand shall in the law correctly of luch County shall establish this joint working group and to work with all the cities I think that would be uh helpful um uh and any other questions David Santiago thank you Mr chair on um as the chair was asking I think you had mentioned two two studies per year or something like that is that what the proposal is how are you going to prioritize what um watersheds uh get studied first well I think it's a combination of multiple factors so obviously areas where we don't have one would be you know high on the priority list areas with older ones and then areas where we've recently experienced significant flooding and and things things like that so we would get together and and and take a look and kind of evaluate all that criteria and come up with the the the ones that we need to focus on first thank you thank you Mr chair any other questions okay then we'll move to a debate uh Jake Johansson um Ben quick question I think I know the answer but I'm going to ask anyhow before I get started um Nova Canal being a prime thing but but you mentioned that that the water doesn't stop at the end of the we have County projects throughout almost every city yes yes so so um how do we get City money to pay for Nova Canal I don't want the unincorporated people to have to pay for fixing Nova Canal how do we get that money uh well um I think you come up with a set of you come up with the project or you have an issue that affects both the city and the county where there is a uh unified goal into solving a problem uh a good example would be the current issue on Taylor Road we have engaged with the city of Del land on coming up with a joint project to address some of the issues there okay so um we you know met with uh new samna beach recently about a a project um in that affects the cities as well City residents as well as County and so there's definitely opportun I think so so one of the things you briefed me on and then I went home and thought about it we talked about it U quite a bit today is I don't think anybody says we don't have a flooding problem we're just maybe have a little bit of difference of opinion of what's causing it but um I I go back to your second slide I think uh maybe the First with the oh third one more down there you go um uh councilman Robins said if somebody has some answer some solution Bring It Forward um level of service a is about the closest thing I can see is for a solution comprehensive planning full CIP implementation U exemplary permit compliance fully preventative operation 100% routine maintenance um and and here we are if there's one complaint I get more than keep my taxes down it's stop the flooding um so so here we are in CND D and struggling well maybe not struggling my words uh uh two up in the B um I'm I'm all for a stair-stepped approach to get your happy you know what's to be as soon as you can and let's let's look at getting a a till we can solve the problem and if it takes $16 by golly um let's do it I think I think people will give up a sixpack or three of beer a month to to help put a dent in the the flooding issues that we're being um that that that we're seeing regardless of the reason regardless sea level rise climate change development it's it's all probably coming anyhow right we have a flood of water we have a flood of sea level rise and we have a flood of people coming and we have to balance all those that's one way to do it so I'm I'm going to be very supportive of a uh of a incremental increase in in uh storm water costs and I will Advocate with the cities to start raising Theirs to be at a level a too uh so we can leverage those monies for for projects with um uh capital projects that'll what triple we talked about triple our money uh two bucks will get me six um I'm I'm a big fan of that um and and I know St John's Water Management St John's River Water Management District and the state um we will back us up all the way because they're looking at us all the time and uh we can keep our head in the sand and keep our taxes low and keep complaining um but I'm not that kind of guy so um let's get to be and and and and then go beyond that that's that's my comment thank you any other comments or questions comments try Kent thank you chairman so councilman Johansson I I think really your comments are pretty spoton with where I am as well I make no mistake in in saying that this is a tax on our people as well it it is and it tends to hurt those that are um the most needy and that doesn't escape me when we're making heavy decisions like this but it also does doesn't escape me that prior elected bodies will sometimes go years or decades without making small incremental increases and then you're hit with hey we're in a crisis situation and we're going to increase everybody's rate to an astronomical number and that doesn't feel good so I'm with councilman Johansson and that you know this Level D is a nonsense even level C and I think it's a lofty goal Jake to get to a level a I think it's an appropriate goal for vucha County I think it helps lead the way and uh take charge for the other 16 municipalities in Valia to follow and I think there's real dollars in the state that we can leverage at the state level for U many projects that will alleviate flooding clean up our water and these are all positive good things for our communities I am for small incremental increases so you're going to get a yes out of me council with making a small incremental increase and then making sure we're on schedule to continue to do that until you all are at a funding level George to where you feel comfortable that we are not falling behind because to build something and not have a plan talked about it with Dr bbau here I asked every single one of them except for the one that Danny jumped in on me with which I liked by the way about you know was there a plan meaning do you have a plan to keep this going but to build something and not have a feasible plan it's like having your house and not putting money aside every paycheck so that guess what one day you're going to need another roof and your air conditioning system is going to break and you better have a plan for that and this County government better do the same thing we better have a plan in place and we can't go to our residents and Hammer them with a huge increase I will never vote for that but you will get small incremental increases out of me because I think it's The Prudent right thing to do does that give you what you need as far as you need direction from Council or do you need a number um well like I said we can go to eight right now if that's the council's decision we're at 650 now we're at 650 now count we got to talk about that because to me that's that's almost a little bit of a of a of a big shot I'm just I'm just giving you the maximum that we can go to right now and then anything above that if if you wanted to do a phase in we would have to come back um you could set a maximum and then set a phasing plan where we go up a little bit each year and Council I'm not against I'm not going to be a hard no on the eight right now but I think we went from 6 to 650 right corre is that right and I was him and Han about 50 cents you know so now we're looking at you know what a buck 50 correct so I I'm not saying I'm a hard no on it I might need a little persuasion thanks so you didn't come up with the number yeah so uh um I I'll support you on that but I would support it under this condition I I think we have to have an increase um Santiago at the last meeting asked that enra be given the task of looking at storm water we're all talking about it we all know how important it is and you can't do it without funds I would support that uh Troy even even at 8 if if you will assure me that we are I mean I'm looking at chapter nine again of of our drainage element comprehensive plan this is written by our own staff who we all agreed are are capable people that we trust it's a really good document but it's we're not doing it we're not doing everything that it says maybe it's it's money um but because almost every every point in it says shall shall fund shall complete if we would do this and it doesn't specifically say that the cities help fund theirs but I think that's what it's alluding to because especially with this committee where the county works with the cities we all know what we're doing there's a permit tracking system U we're working together the cities would fund their part we fund our part I I think um now the maybe George or the attorneys could could set me wrong but it looks like a a process that we're all doing together and that's the only way we're going to solve uh the the flooding problems I mean you you spend time on it every single day um with flooding somewhere so if we would follow uh chapter 9 and do what it says I think um I'd be willing and I think you said you're going to do that um you're going to do two studies yeah yeah we're we're I mean this this uh plan calls for two studies to be updated or created a year um and so that's what we would immediately start doing yeah that that would help us on what we just went through with the previous item on on on develop almost every development thing uh item that comes up where we're being asked to change zoning um if we had this information what's what is the storm water management plan how does it apply here what are we going to do with that water is there any place to put it it would allow us to vote a lot with a lot clearer conscience at least it would me so um Danny Robbins thank you chair um councilman Johansson everybody you're making um real excellent points we should be striving for that that b and that a ultimately but I just I just want to I want to bring up something interesting here and I was just hav been thinking about it um in the last several years actually since 2021 and actually far beyond that prior we've offered pay raises uh incentives across the boards for all of our law enforcement and um uh employees uh We've uh dedicated uh this Council and prior have dedicated themselves to double digit increases to our law enforcement at record level funding levels that I don't think many in Central Florida or the state can compare with uh we had the uh implementation of amendment 10 we've had the beach transition costs all with one thing in common with lowering our millage rates and tightening our belt that is how good our staff is at saving money there's double digigit millions and millions and millions that we were able to do all within our taxing uh our current taxing rate ultimately I agree with everybody up here and what they said but my first option would be we have in my opinion some of the best staff possible to to look at and analyze how we fund this let's try to exhaust that first before we go for an increase now if we have to do something in incremental so be it we have an election year coming up we have record inflation uh uh uh throughout this country inflationary spending throughout this country we could be all um in much greater trouble economic trouble in the next four years if things don't change at the national level but to put an additional money without exhausting some of these other um areas first I'd feel more comfortable if we looked at that if that makes sense um and let our staff go to work to see what kind of money we can kick up without um putting another um possible monetary burden on our on our people and if that doesn't if that doesn't work guys or we can't fund a a funding source and I got another thing up my sleeve I was going to bring up in Council comments then so be it we can we can look at it but I would definitely give these guys an opportunity to do it they've done it every year with some major major major major things um in the past few years here all with lowering our millit rate where we don't have to put additional tax burdens people if you can just consider that I'll back you with whatever Direction you'd like to go thank you that's that's a great idea um County manager wants to speak up but I think George or George Ben you're going to have to be clear because I think what you're telling is that you've done that you've done the savings you're looking you need an increase now so yeah let me that's exactly right take put your pie chart back up there yeah back to the other you can see how the money in operation and maintenance I want to start there because that's where we've uh I think really done uh almost miraculous job in uh in really asset management for what we have out there but you know you had an earlier item you were talking about uh the development in Orange City uh and about potential for flooding if there's going to be any fixed anything and you're ever going to have new development infill in these areas th this is the pot of money that it comes out of so you know we're at now if you take a look most of the stuff is maintenance repair drainage system 16% roadside ditch clean mechanical 133% install drainage pipe so there's where you may be a new install 11% um you know replacing failing driveway pipes 7% uh retention area maintenance 6% % all these uh of pipe drainage so you see how it's broken out almost all those items are um are maintaining and repair of what's there because the system has grown because of the studies and stuff that were done back in the 90s uh and those projects were taken on and those canals were taken on so I just I want to point that out that uh we pretty much have used up and what you're looking at and what he's trying to say is he need some extra money because we can't afford to do the studies if if we cuz we're using up all the money now on the operation of Maintenance just to keep our heads uh above water and the only reason we haven't been here earlier is because when we did get covid money and AR of money and things we used uh some of that money into the storm water uh programs and I think something was mentioned earlier about you know one of the Cities having a dedicated millage or something that went to to uh money for match just for Echo well I mean that's what we're saying here is we need some money to match to go after the remaining grants from the D and other things that are out there if we don't have the money to match then you're not going to get the projects and and and it's only gotten more expensive and to go into these neighborhoods where uh the county uh older development is meeting up against new development you know you're probably going to be talking pump stations uh buying land for uh which would be expensive developable land happens to be the same land you have to have the high land to actually have capacity so you're going to be buying those lands for Retention Ponds and things that uh are not there today and retrofitting a neighborhood which I've done many times is a uh it's an expensive proposition so uh but it's it's going to have to get done in a lot of these areas and again we that's all flooding we haven't touched on the water quality part I think we've made huge strides uh with uh the mosquito Lagoon uh but there's uh literally every Lake and uh stream and everything around the county where roads just directly drain or or areas drain right into those uh bodies of water uh we have to clean that's a requirement now so those baffle boxes he mentioned they're no joke joke uh they often require um sheet pile and dewatering to set them correctly uh again all expensive things that have to get done uh to maintain the just really the permits uh that we're supposed to have out there to operate even our road system today and two quick points so talking about being efficient some of that extends to technology so used to be if we had a failing metal pipe or something like that we'd rip it out of the ground and we'd have to put the road back and everything back well now we can line pipes and we don't and it's minimally invasive and so it's a considerably less expense we we vac and and video our system to see if there's issues and catch them before they become a larger problem and then you know as Mr rectenwald referenced when they set the rate back in ' 05 water quality wasn't even something that they thought about the tmdls and all the regulatory requirements Associated that we have to meet the storm water projects that um you know we've implemented recently to clean up storm water going into the mosquito Lagoon and other places were not even contemplated when they initially set that rate at $6 yeah and let me just add another part that's occurred we've talked about this tube and they're related because it's operating systems that overlap the the road system which has a big storm water element to it well through the years our gas tax which is which is what we also uh operate our road system off from has remained flat so again we've added miles of road or taking on road U uh had to further maintain roads and ponds uh and we don't necessarily have that money you know we have to balance between that and storm water if if we had maybe more Road money uh that could take care of those systems maybe that percentage of clean roadside ditch mechanical could go down somewhat can be used on other projects so again we're really getting squeezed in public works in U on our operation and maintenance that's why so much fun uh effort has been put into the efficiency and asset management that they do um is they're just constantly trying to squeeze uh more out of uh you know a really a flat Revenue Source while they pass on electric vehicles well exactly I mean that's that's a whole whole another area but um right the revenues uh we don't see them in going up and and again you've got you know impact fees pay for you know the growth or attempt to that's they have to be part of the new capacity uh that are added into systems like Road systems but you know we have to still deal with the issues that are already there so even earlier uh again you were talking about a subdivision you're going to put maybe 10 homes into something that's really INF Phill if you looked around I mean there's ton of lots I'm very familiar that area there may be flooding issues uh it is kind of a high sand area but if you want to do those things it's still going to require storm water work to make them work and I think that's uh uh again why we're asking for at least an incremental uh increase starting now and we really do need some direction soon because we are as we speak putting together the budget so knowing what our revenues would be would be uh very helpful so thank you councilman Reinhardt thank you chair um you just said it some the question was asked a little while ago other resources to find other ways other revenues to be able to fund this and stay away from taxing individual ual and maybe the possibility of leftover arpa money or whatever the case may be but we did that like George just reflected to and we ran out or we're coming to a point now where we have to find other resources so we can continue to kick that can and try to find other resources we we've you've already done the work you've looked into it there is no other way we want to be able to to control the flooding issue now we got to start somewhere you got to start sometime and it has to be now um water quality you know there there are a lot of projects and you're we're we're smiling together cuz there's a project that we're working on elsewhere you know with water quality with the at the jail that we're doing those things we got to wait till funding becomes available from uh that Federal gramp and if we get it but that's just that we got to start now everybody said well it's going to take so many years to do that you got to start somewhere um baffle boxes water goats all these things cost money um you said you've increased only two positions in the last several years you're able to accommodate but at some point and then you're going to need need assistance with that you're going to need money you're going to have to increase staff um one thing that's coming up that we got to find the funding for SunRail that's going to cost us're we're trying to find ways to fund it so where do we start with help with this I mean this is a big issue too so um I'm I tell you right now based on all that I'm in favor of the increased uh the the scheduled increase uh we got to start somewhere we can't we can't just worry about this later and say okay well you know bring it back to us and see if you can find another way and then six months from now bring it back to us and see if we can find another way because we want to keep that milit rate down or we want to keep the taxes down I get it but the flooding is an issue and we have to address it now Vice chair Kent thank you chairman and only because councilman Reinhardt brought up the jail and SunRail in the same comment I'll just say now I'll bring up you know my idea of Beach driving but I did come with a plan that brings 7 million new dollars to the county with that plan uh George what I heard you say but what I didn't hear you say really was that you're ringing the bell this is serious and if we don't make a change um in the very near future it's just going to become more serious exactly so you know when I hear that we're ringing the bell um something needs to be done I already mentioned to you gentlemen that I like small incremental increases but this needs to be on the calendar every year until we get to that Mr Johansson level of a that we're talking about and then we don't put it aside we we simply say you know we need to keep this in the rearview mirror and make sure that we're addressing it from time to time Council I I'm not there yet unless someone can convince me with the $8 but I could go to the $ 750 a dollar increase so um I'll make a motion to go to 750 second Johansson okay we and and with that I'll just say George does that give you and your team the support needed to to get us on track with positive increases yeah it gets us a start I I would asked uh permission to the council to bring back uh we if we going for budgetary person purposes of 750 for this year but before the the year is out I'd like to um then bring back a plan for further incremental increases in the following years so if we have them then we can plan off of that and uh I think that'd be a big help but this this will be a good help and then uh we'll come back uh with the plan and and part of that could show maybe uh more specific projects because I think that was a request uh that I heard as as well and and how uh some of the capital would be spent and George as as our manager that's exactly what you should be doing you should come back with a plan for us on these in small incremental increases and and Ben of course you need to be a a part of that conversation and of course Ryan uh in our finance department needs to be involved in that conversation as well and then we need to make sure we are um getting the message out and educ ating our residents as to the why behind this because they need to know you know there's there's a reason for this um this isn't just a money grab there's a bell that's been rung and we need to make sure that we are properly taking care of our storm water and Council I'll just say you know my goal with that when we get to that a is that our canals that we were talking about that they are um pumped down before big rain events or big storms so that we can handle that extra water whenever we know something is coming and we're not allowing our residents to flood and that's something we should be working with every single municipality in valuchi County another tool in our tool belt to assist thank you and that that's exactly right and um we we can maybe do a little bit more presentations on some of the places we actually do that uh where we already are with the previous monies where we built the big storm water facilities up at Holly Hill in uh in Orman border we draw that down ahead of storms we've had no problems in that area uh I those areas at one time houses had water up uh 3 ft into their house uh so and again we used money to leverage with FEMA and we're able to buy out those houses and then put those storm water facilities in in place and I will say the canals are their own uh put a little plug in here for uh the because the canals uh basically drain the cities and and and this is a storm water utility that's in the unincorporated so we have to that's why you see the other chart that has the acreage and uh what we take a look at is well how much is in the unincorporated how much is in the cities and that's where we do need City cooperation uh in those canals while we're charged with maintaining them uh a lot of them are maintained actually through the mosquito control fund because they're maintained for mosquitoes to keep flow through there which is important so they don't breed but they're not funded by storm water utility because storm water utility is fly unincorporated and so that's an issue down the road on those canals will'll need more help I think from the cities to work together because they depend on those canals uh to drain their development that's going out through and so that's uh something again uh where I think some of the talk uh you're speaking about Mr chair uh maybe some standing committees uh maybe broke down years ago because of no one wanting to to work with us but we certainly did have them for the big um joint projects and that we especially at the latest one being the reasonable Assurance plan down to Mosquito lagum so councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman you know I'm looking at this this the 750 motion and I think you know George will take anything we give him probably and say thank you right but if I think I read into him more without him saying it not putting words in his mouth I think he needs more um Ben what what does 750 get us I mean I know this probably a tough question to answer but um I mean go to the budget so 750 puts our Revenue I'm going to guesstimate between seven and eight go halfway so you're looking at 5 it's about a $750,000 increase in Revenue over what we're currently getting now what does that get you um if you go to our budget um what I would point to is um if you look at our uh can I pause you for a second sure because I'd rather approach this from what are we going to do I don't just want to throw money if I if I say I'm GNA give you $5 million Ben what are you going to do with those $5 million right I'm just example so here's what we're going to do we're going to immediately by the way I support the increase I don't want you to think that right no no no because I think it should be higher right I understand so immediately we would you know we're we're going to figure the the rate study figures about a half million dollars a year to do those two study updates on the per stud on the no 250 per study um if you look at our basins they're large I mean I think Daytona the city of Daytona Beach is like 70 square miles we have basins that are 160 miles 160 square miles so um our Basin studies are considerably more expansive than than a storm water master plan for for a city so we're immediately going to start and get those studies underway and then from those studies we're there's going to be a series of projects that are going to get generated and we're going to take that Capital money and we're going to use that money to design and permit some of those projects the high priority ones and then we're going to use that shovel ready project you know and we're going to go to the St John's Water Management District we're going to go to the DP we're going to go to the state with the resilience money and we're g to say hey we got a project we've been great Partners in the past I mean they literally will call us up sometimes when other area other municipalities falter with their projects and the money frees up because they know we can spend it we'll get it built on time and on budget and so that's exactly what what we would do so the 750 gets you a little bit a as far as uh money gets you a little bit more than two studies it gets us a little bit more than two studies but I got the the other problem with our just our regular operation maintenance and our you know we're still running a deficit that's where I'm going so it gets us two studies but you can't really do much work additional for it and I I struggle with that because not from staff perspective from our decision-making perspective is because flooding has been like the thing we've talked about the most up here uh the entire time and let's take it serious everybody everybody in vucha County knows that we have to deal with this problem why are we going to throw nickels at it if we have staff that has a plan ready to execute projects I get it costs money to do things if and if you know I've been a huge advocate with with a lot of your support to cut taxes and eliminate things and we've done that but I've done those because I've supported those because of approach that I thought they were waste and government didn't need the money in this scenario we need the money um I'd hate to see another storms come through this upcoming year and what do we do we threw a $150 at it you know um I at a minimum I even think Eight's a little too I mean too small but if we can get the eight I think we should go at least to eight and immediately implement the ordinance to allow for the incremental increases to go up let's tell valua that we're serious about flooding and it costs money to do the projects Danny I'm going to be right there with you when we go into the budget where's the where's other ways where are programs where are we charging our taxpayers things that we shouldn't I'm in I'm in the fight but this one we got to be serious about it and put some real money behind it I I think 750 is way too low um I know there's a motion in a second um I'm going to vote no on that motion because I think it's too low Jak Johanson thank you sir um just Ben walk walk me through the the we talked about a little bit but walk me through the the I I don't want the unincorporated folks to be paying for the mosquito control stuff and and and all the stuff in the cities without support how how do we crack that n well so the mosquito control canals are are an interesting subject so they're funded they were originally dug for mosquito control purposes since that time as urbanization has occurred they've essentially in a lot of ways become storm water conveyances for the urban area as the cities right um currently the maintenance of those canals is paid for the the storm water folks do it but there's an internal transfer from mosquito control to storm water to pay it we track all those costs so we know exactly what it's cost it's roughly 700,000 7 to 800,000 a year and that's paid for out of the mosquito control fund which again includes the mosquito control district which includes City and right UNC corporated area so to to ass suade your fears as to whether or not an unincorporated person in Pearson is paying for those canals that that is not the case but but what about if if Nova Canal needs to be reworked from the County's perspective to handle more flood waters in a flood well let me let me use a different one because no Canal is the state's issue um but let me use the b19 canal which is one of ours so um if if there was an issue with the b19 canal uh you know that Canal takes a lot of urbanized storm water runoff I mean just from the simple fact and and portions of that Canal did not exist prior to like the 1950s or or a lot of it it was literally dug for mosquito control purposes um so you know if there was a big project associated with the canal it would have to come from the mosquito control ideally I'd like to work with the cities and and who who contribute the storm water runoff to those canals we get lots of calls y'all get lots of calls hey you know the canal behind my house not the best looking and we typically respond with we maintain the canals for flow not necessarily Aesthetics um we do all kinds of routine maintenance to make sure they flow but um yeah I mean it's an issue and there's a lot of uh a lot of storm water that gets put into those canals that comes from cities that have their own storm water utility got it I amum I'm stuck and and council member Santiago brought it up um I'm stuck on this slide it it's labeled 10- 514 um we're going to there's a motion right now for for 750 and you're saying 825 won't get you where I just told you to go and and $12 will get there so so if we if we batten down the hatches and tighten our belts and squeeze blood out of the turnup and put bend in a set of uh uh overalls and take his birthday away um we could probably do it for I got plenty of birthdays a spare 11 eru a month so um uh so we're still not there I think a good recommendation is you know as I explained to Mr Santiago's question was what's the plan well there's there's GNA be a lag sure right because you got to do the study you gotta develop and I know you have a list of projects from that have Cent correct sales tax and we got some water quality projects as well we got but there's going to be a lag so I think the incremental increases are are are are appropriate in the sense that you know some of that Capital some of those capital projects won't come for two or three years down the road that's when we're going to need that money to to hit those projects hard the storm water utility I'm sorry the storm water the Basin studies we can start right away got it and um and then those projects will be I you know identified and then they'll be designed and then they'll be built and so you can see there's a progression there in terms of of Revenue that would be required um you know we will take whatever Council decides to go with um I I think um there is a deficit you know in terms of not just just the studies in the capital but there will be an oncoming deficit in in operation and maintenance and we we do a very good job there we're at that level of service B um and we are striving for a but you know we've improved dramatically from where we were but we would like to we wouldn't like to regress in that area and and my my last question comment is as as we move into the budget process and and uh County Manager had had spoken about we'd like to bring you an incremental approach um Can Can we include so it's kind of a a kind of a a collaborative effort uh the the mosquito uh the mosquito control fund as well to you cuz why don't we kill two mosquitoes with one stone kind of and and and put them both together at the same time thank you 100% councilman Robbins thank you chair I just I need some clear a couple things Ryan May Ben you here for just a minute you and Ben could tag team this dynamic duo Ryan thank you um yeah real quick can you explain the uh the health of the uh the MSD fund and and what uh and would it uh pay for some of this so the municipal Service District fund has an overl overlapping tax base with the storm water fund it's the unincorporated area in the past uh before some of the recent actions that have been taken it could have been possible if you were okay from a political standpoint of using ADV valorum tax dollars to help fund storm water it could have been possible to do that transfer however at this point you may remember that the municipal Service District is the fund where the Communication Service tax used to go that was a over $3 million a year Revenue loss to that fund and if you looked at the MSD forast the Surplus that it was generating was less than $3 million we're looking at a deficit that we're going to try to be recovering from this year in the municipal Service District fund so uh between three out of the last four years of the municipal Service District being at rollback the business tax receipt repeal and the Communication Service tax the municipal Service District fund has had a lot of uh revenue losses to it which have been tax savings to the same residents that would be facing any of these increases with storm water thank you I and and and the point of that question was to make sure that we're not being counterproductive in in what we're doing um because here we're we're trying to give them savings but now we're just taxing them in a different way uh to make up that Revenue my which leads me to my other other question here what's the difference Ryan of valou County residents paying 100% of this uh by incremental increases and before I get hung hung in the street here I'm not in favor of a sales tax but what's the difference between 100% uh of f County residents paying for this incremental increase versus a sales tax option where residents would pay for a portion uh could possibly pay maybe for a portion of the this and take some of that burden away from our residents is there uh does that make sense there's a couple things that I'd answer that with I'm trying to figure out the best route here because I I I I don't the I don't want to be counterproductive here and I don't want to put this whole burden on our people when if there's a better option and we're doing it looks like we're going to be possibly uh making making this increase anyway but if there's a way for our visitors and Out of Towners to also pay for this and and relieve our taxpayers if that makes sense I think there's there's numbers out there that have been quoted and I don't know I don't remember them off the top of my head of how much the sales tax is paid for by visitors versus locals so there is a difference there where maybe visitors could help pay for part of it however I'd point out that sales taxes for infrastructure which would only be the capital piece of this equation it wouldn't be the operating deficit that we're seeing coming up in the the future as far as maintaining that system so it would take I I don't know what the the answer is I don't know if you know but it would be safe to say that it would take some of that burden in that incremental increase and reduce it if there was another mechanism uh I'm just trying to I want to make sure people are aware um and I'm trying to get my thoughts out in the correct manner uh and be safe about it as well because I uh I want to squeeze this the most the most we can in in the best um manner if you had a sales tax that could pay for infrastructure I was storm water part of what we were proposing before yeah uh specifically water quality projects were what was proposed before if the sales tax can only cover infrastructure then you're looking at 2 million uh 2 million of the 9.2 million that's recommended which if you drop that down to 7.2 you're still looking at a differential of about four .4 million from where we're at now so Council what's a I mean what's a better taxing option I don't like him either I don't like them all but Mr Kent brings up an excellent point David brings up an excellent point Matt chairman you bring up an excellent point J I think these are all valid but how do you word it you know how do we want to word this thing we're still ta we're still you guys get the point thanks can I ask him a question Mr chair uh sure go ahead hey Danny you caught my attention with your your your qu train of questioning line of questioning um are you suggesting the possibility of exploring uh a referendum to impose a uh if the people want to do a storm water increase in the sales tax is that what you're thinking to offset this because it affects everybody's where you were going right I don't know enough about it David but something in my gut said I don't want to make this tomato tomato I don't want to tell the citizens oh we're not taxing you we're taxing you but is it better for our visitors to pay for a portion of it to alleviate this instead of putting this 100% of the burden on our residents no yeah is there is there a better way because something doesn't feel right you you you caught my attention because I think the some of the comments that Jake was making and the accy manager was that because of the way this is inter connected the cities also should have a potential share of this right and we might be taking the entire burden but if we go down the path that you might be suggesting it might everybody may shareing it including tourists that's what you're saying how do we make tourists pay I mean that's the whole our our economic driver here that we should be making The Outsiders pay and make our quality of life better at here at home I'm open to that conversation I take the off I think it's a worthy one I I think I just don't know what the answer is if we go there it has to be very narrowly defined because of the failures in the past to to do things like that so and I'll stop there Mr chair to my turn okay thank you uh uh quick question you said you would immediately start two Watershed studies do you know where where they are which are your top two priorities because if you want Don's vote it's going to have to be the Chanel of Lake Town B slakes well um that is one of the ones that we don't have that's the hall the the hall Creek little Hall Creek is an Watershed that we don't have a study in um I don't have a an exact answer for you I don't have a prioritization list but it would be uh we would give heavy weight to ones that have not had a study and also areas where we have seen um some significant recent flooding we put a lot of water into that chain correct so uh the other thing before I you mentioned the canals and complaints about Aesthetics um that is often a positive you're keeping the canals clean for flow or functioning for flow but the weeds and the bog plants that grow along the sides are one of the keyways that clean helps clean that water as it's flowing before it gets to where going it anchors the bank and and prevents erosion we are big fans of vegetation along the canals yeah so I I don't want to see you clearcut every Canal all the time that those those plants are really um important um okay I'm I'm going to leave it uh there for now uh David Santiago do you still where are we Mr chair do we have a motion in place we have a motion for 750 I think I said already that I I said that I'd rather change that to make it higher to give them more they want so yeah I I'll vote no on that unless um we increase it I would entertain that I'm not I'm not with Mr Robbins yet with the sales tax and the reason is and I don't want to I don't want to be harping on this but I'm going to if if everybody would read this chapter 9 it's not an inspired document it's not the Bible but it's pretty darn good and I think in there um it would allow us to join with the cities to help pay for their share of of storm water problems it's not going to B it's not going to put the entire burden on um unincorporated of uchia County um there's a lot here that our staff wrote and and I think if not this Council the previous Council approved the drainage element I think that's one of the ones that just got redone so before we considered a sales tax I think we ought to just do what what we have in hand here and I think that spreads the risk U or the burden around uh Jake Johansson yeah I I have a few comments regarding uh Council comments here uh first of all I I we got rid of the communication tax we got rid of the uh the BTR and and I think that's very important because nobody was getting anything out of that really except for us we're getting money uh a little bit of tracking with the BTR um in my opinion uh so so something that the something that the public did not want they no longer pay for so we saved them money that that they didn't want to pay I would opine that they want to pay for storm water so we gave them back this money not to say you we'll never ask for it again but to say now now we want it back in a fee to pay for something that that you have beat us over the head with every day so I think that's the the first point uh regarding the sales tax I think it's 6040 60% us 40% um um uh tourist if I recall um but we can there's nothing preventing us from lowering our storm water fee correct we can raise it change it year to year we can change we can there's there's no referendum to lower it there's no public hearing to lower it um so I don't want to wait for us all to figure out whether we're going to do a a sales tax increase to to increase this um I want to do it now I want to do it to the max stem possible the fact that we can't even get to be with what we can do to today is embarrassing it's embarrassing so we need to work hard to get to be and and I I think if if we can if we can convince the public and and it's almost it's almost a little bit of it's almost a little bit of pressure we're going to we're going to increase your fee but I'll tell you how to get rid of that that fee we'll do a sales tax that might convince me to pay for the sales tax or or vote for the sales tax so there might be some uh to quote my favorite President uh strategery in that but but the task at hand I I think we need to to go ugly get up to speed here try to get to line of sight B and have have George and the team come up with a plan uh to get to a and and fix our problems which with whatever funding we can use so thank you thanks I'm going to try and move quickly through these last two we've got members of the public who want to speak that I think are getting ready to leave uh Troy Kent thank you chairman Mr Johansson I love that you just quoted uh president with strategery I wish you would have continued it with you don't have to be in Washington DC to do the work they have things like fax similes and phones that was the other part of that whole that whole thing but you know on a on a more serious note because I didn't know this was going to morph into a conversation about a possible discussion about sales tax I will now quote the great mugatu from the movie Zoolander who says I feel like I'm taking crazy pills like what this this conversation about sales tax where our visitors are going to pay for it but guess who else pays for it you do all day long with everything you buy and we're already taxed enough I am a hard no on on the sales tax idea and fushi County residents they came out loud and clear a few years ago they were a hard no with it as well if we went to $16 from $650 right now it would it would sort of solve the problem I'm not your guy for that I'm not voting for that I'm not voting for 10 I'm not voting for nine you know I'll go I'll go up a buck I would love to say I'm with you and I'll go to eight I would love to say that but and and 750 is not anything what they need but we make a plan to where this is brought up every year until we get you to where you need because this is a tax on our residents and I would rather them uh us us take this from them in incremental pieces instead of just one big wallup here you go this is what we expect from you I can't do that and I'm not going to sit here and point the blame on former councils because listen majority of us have been all of us have been together for 14 months majority of us have been sitting up here for 14 months two of us have been here for 38 months so there were other councils that made these decisions these policy decisions and we can't fix that we can just go forward from here and and I'm in for a buck increase and then come back to us let's talk about this before the uh the year is up about the other increase we need to do and then on an annual basis I'm there with you but I can't go more than that right now councilman Dempsey does any of that money that 50 million that we've that that yall voted on to go towards infrastructure from HUD does any of that spill over into this we can we will be submitting for projects you know for some of our capital projects that we have uh for for some of those projects but the cities will be competing as well for that money and I was told when we had that big debate we had 50 million from HUD then we had another 42 million accessible through some other fund so that whole it's all it's the same funding there's 42 million for resiliency and 50 million for infrastructure um but that'll be a uh competition if you will for lack of a better term between us and the cities and and various nonprofits so we have some projects lined up we'll be submitting for um so yes some of that can be used for Capital not for any kind of operational maintenance or anything like that so it could it it most likely will some of it at least will spill into funding what you're looking for correct and that but again there's no guarantee on that and that's short-term funding and but yes that extra 50 million that some of us were pushing for would have helped that much more huh I would take 50 million Zing all right that's all I have I do feel better I feel uh like you bring up the beach and the dogs on you go let's uh let's hear from the public yet I've I've kind of as we go along we've I've kind of dispensed with the questions and then two bites at the Apple because this is really important we're talking about either raising a fee or a tax and I I think this has been a healthy constructive debate I appreciate uh everybody's input um we have three members of the public and then if someone has something to uh to add after that I I'll give you the opportunity uh Dana mol be followed by Jacqueline Clark followed by John Nicholson thank you Dana mcool beltona Florida and as a representative of my constituency had to have this conversation with them last month about raising storm water and was vilified because I stated that we bowed the public pressure for our commission uh not doing storm water assessment last year so this year I'm trying to prepare the public I have read all 514 pages of a very stimulating report and I'm going to tell you something that I haven't heard in this conversation today through all this beautiful pontificating some of the people that can contribute to this are perhaps developers those are the only people that weren't mentioned in this and having a responsible party to this you know when we talk about storm water we're really not just talking about storm water we're talking about water and period And when you're doing more investigation in this when I'm talking about having a rationalize to my constituency um why this is happening why we have a proliferation I understand understand kicking the can down the road we've had the same issues uh in my town but I would like to see what the part of this is caused by inflation what part of is caused by growth and development because there's a correlation here with the amount of development going on I know in Deltona it is impervious surfaces that we have when we talk about developer responsibility we've been kind of kneecapped by Tallahassee as to what we can do for impact fees but it certainly doesn't stop us from creating ordinances that would have our Builders when we're talking about growth and development when we're talking about comp plan land use responsible growth and development using or having to use more than surfaces that are impervious these are things that I'm talking about how do we get here how do we mitigate these costs to begin with because this is very very costly you know to the tune of $7.3 million is where we're going up just in valua County uh regarding that from where we are now listen I don't mind this I've had to educate myself to talk to my constituency regarding having to go up or using a storm water assessment fee I understand the the cruel reality of where we have to go it's not that but when we're talking about responsibility y we need to talk about the third party here that nobody's talking about the mistress that is development and we need to talk about it hard and we need it investigated we're doing it or we will be doing it in in our city and you need to do it here I didn't hear one of you talk about what developer responsibility is here because it is so as we move forward I hope that our County Council kind of lead the way here um on holding them responsible and when we do this to pinpoint the cause because cause is important I know that it's here but cause is important because who caused it Bears responsibility and we need to find out if that is the case thank you very much jacqualine Clark thank you uh my name is Jackie Clark I live in Port Orange in unincorporated fuchia County um studies in 2008 valua County paid $140,000 to environmental Consulting and Technology for an updated study on the B21 Basin which you never see anywhere in any of these PL the B21 goes from 92 along tamoka Road tamoka Farms to 44 um the goal of the study was to evaluate and identify storm water infrastructure deficiencies and to identify and recommend Capital Improvement projects to address these deficiencies with the primary goal of reducing flooding and improving water quality both none of those were ever implemented to this day none of that work has been done and we want to do more studies the study also reveals that the high levels of fecal coliform in Spruce Creek are likely due to the septic tanks all the large animals in along tamoka Farms Road right I mean the storm water sits on your pastures it's soaking up all the manure then it drains into the ditches and canals and it ends up in spru Creek the D has grants for that if we could stop the flooding and help Spruce Creek that would be great unfortunately the cost of the work back then in 2009 was $1.5 Million I know from the capital Improvement budget here it's never going to happen I know tonight coming here it is never going to happen and I would be one of those I would be thrilled to pay $16 a month I I would do it my house is flooded twice in less than 20 years 20 plus inches I don't believe that it will change anything um lastly um regarding how funds are allocated uh I also went through the entire report and it is interesting to me that right now 76% of the revenue goes to personnel and operating EXP expenses in 2003 it was 15% for capital in 2002 2003 was 45% now it's 12% what happened um I have huge respect for all of you and and anybody with the county staff I've ever dealt with they've been phenomenal they're so good but at this point I have no reason to believe no matter how much money you throw at it it's going to get fixed thank you John Nicholson John Nicholson Daytona Beach side Troy I like you however you're sitting there saying that you can't approve a amount that was needed 20 years ago things have increased in 20 years cost of housing food etc etc so most of your constituents know that their increas is coming so they're anticipating some kind of an increase secondly almost everybody in the county has heard about the flooding whether you're in Daytona Beach Port Orange Aster they know about flooding they know something has to be done all right that 50 cents had you increased 50 cents each year you'd be at $15 $15 $16 not that far apart plus all the money that would have been raised over the last 20 years so putting things off 20 years before you check on something only hurt you in the long run I brought before you what happened with the city of Daytona Beach roll backs we had the 27% increase in our taxes because of it you guys when we did the sales tax the half penny sales tax I told you you guys that the impact fees that hadn't been raised in 17 years was going to bite you and it did those surveys after the vote almost 3/4s impact Fe all right so you can't put off this thing if $8 was needed 20 years ago at least $ 850 is needed now you have to increase a little bit and I think if you tell the public that we wanted to do it 20 years ago at $8 but we we were able to by manipulating keep your taxes down for 20 years they'll understand the need because they know about the flooding there's a there's a a a kind of a a feed into it that this is why we're doing what we're doing and we absolutely need it and they'll understand the need uh Danny thank you for the half penny sales tax all right all right I've mentioned that like the day after the vote failed I mentioned that we needed it but we have to do it correctly we're at 6 and a half% our competitors are at 8 and a half% that was never mentioned so if our people say oh we don't want to go up because it's too high but then you say well our competitors are 8.5% and we can raise $100 million if we have half penny sales tax you're going to have to pay a penny more when you go to 7-Eleven I'm sorry that's not a lot unless you're buying a big p ticket item it's pennies and I know it's repetitive and it adds up over time but what we get in return is fantastic so I would recommend a one penny increase to do a lot thank you un fortunately you're out of time uh councilman Santiago my my last bite Mr chairman I think it's my second too by the way on on debate um council members um you know I'm looking at this here and you know we have a$ 1.19 billion doll budget could I seriously tell someone if I have a conversation that we took what happened in the storm water world and all the impact that we had in this County could I seriously say that we took it ser serious that by raising it by $700,000 when it's been behind for 15 years we raised it $700,000 I can't say that with a straight face the the $1 is not enough um let's send a clear message let's take this issue serious the most we can go up to legally today according to to Ben and our staff is $8 and then work on the incremental increases and if we come up with other Solutions Danny I'm I'm open to the conversation we always have to have different IDE and start talking about things but I urge my my my colleagues vote this one down and let's entertain another motion thank you Mr chair Vice chair Kent thank you chairman and and briefly John I'll respond to you I I like you as well I don't know you very well but I like you as well but um you know that being said I'm not your guy if you're expecting me to come in here and fix the mistakes of former councils by not doing small incremental increases over the past 20 years I I'm not a tax guy I'm a reduce your tax burden kind of guy that's what this Council I think we just heard we have done with the leadership of several of you with ideas so I'm not the guy that's going to come in and say we're going to increase this now by $10 and just for your comment about the penny sales tax it works well with your narrative when you say it's just a penny at 7-Eleven I don't know what you can buy at 7-Eleven for a dollar anymore because it would be a penny it would be it would be a penny I don't know what you can buy because a candy bar a king-size candy bar is $3.99 now okay so now you're looking at four pennies and you haven't bought that soda and you didn't buy a gallon of milk you didn't buy and you didn't buy you didn't and it's a huge burden on the everyday people that live here and that's the other side of that story so listen count maybe do what councilman Santiago want you to do and we tend to agree on a lot of things but I'm struggling with a buck I'm just telling you I'm struggling increasing it a dollar I think it's I think it's a step in the right direction and I think we are giving staff a plan in the future to make sure we continue to bring this up and we have this healthy discussion but and I've heard the comment about you know it's election season well two of us are up for election but Council I want you to know right now I'm not afraid I'm not afraid to do what's right for Valia County residents and if someone wants to challenge me or beat me up because I want to in my mind do the right thing and provide for Valia County by increasing something like this so be it but I I cannot fix what prior councils did not accomplish and take care of and they probably had great reasons for that I'm I'm not going to beat anybody up up or beat up prior councils for that it is what it is we can't fix that we can only go forward I'm good with the buck okay thank you I was hoping you would amendment to uh um to the8 doll it can be voted down and then and then we can do that if that's what that's what they want to do it could be or the seconder could pull their second I I think there's value here and I'm I'm going to go back to this uh um drainage element one more time because I think that this Council really needs to drill this home if we pass any increase um it have we have to uh Take Ben's word for it that he's going to do the studies and then the question has come up is is government tends to study things to death but there in element 9 there's a trigger and it says the Lucia County shall develop a comprehensive surface and groundwater watershed management plan within 6 months after completion and Adoption of the comprehensive drainage Watershed Watershed studies so they got six months to come up with a a plan of how we're going to spend the money that might be left over if we just do 750 there's not going to be a lot of money um left over but that's the uh that's the motion on the floor is to increase it to 750 motion by Troy Kent um second by Jake Johansson there's no other comments uh Chris please call the role Mr dimsey the vote is to increase it to 750 yes yes Mr Johansson no Mr Kent yes Mr Reinhardt no Mr Robbins no Mr Santiago no Mr Mr Brower no so the motion fails uh 5-2 the motion is not passed um are there any other motions David Santiago chairman I move Mr chairman I moveed to make the increase to $8 second okay now the storm water fee motion is for $8 motion is by David Santiago seconded by Matt Reinhardt chrisa would you call the role Mr Dempsey Mr Johansson yes Mr Kent no Mr Reinhardt yes Mr Robbins yes Mr Santiago yes Mr Brower yes and that motion carries uh five to two thank you the long way to get there okay a 11 ordinance 2024 -09 section 78.6 sexual offenders place of residence Russ good afternoon Mr chair MERS of council Russ Brown County attorney before you for your consideration uh as requested by Council previously is ordinance 20249 uh sexual offenders place of residence uh creating section 7 h-6 in the code of ordinance that would prohibit a sexual offender from residing either permanently or temporarily within, 1500 feet of any school Child Care Facility designated public school bus stop public park and playground in the unincorporated portion of the county the ordinance would also make it unlawful to knowingly rent a place to a person prohibited by the ordinance from a res from renting a residence uh that's located within the 1500 ft of any school Child Care Facility designated public school bus stop public park and playground there are exceptions contained within the ordinance that would uh most notably grandfather persons that are residing currently within the additional 500 feet and when I say additional 500 feet so currently we follow the state statute of a th000 feet this would increase it to an additional 500 feet in the unincorporated area um we have the map in front of you it's kind of a a macro view if you will of what the uh ordinance in the red would uh is the additional 500 feet so what that would look at in comparison uh I also have Mr Brandon Barnett the gis and Lis manager on your staff who can answer any of the technical questions of what goes into doing those boundaries uh he ran a report with the additional 500 ft and it's approximately uh 4.5% uh of the current dwellings would be removed uh with this additional 500 ft if that makes sense so with that I'll answer any questions so there would be le 4.5% less dwellings available for offenders to reside in if the additional 500 ft is approved in the unincorporated of the total percentage available now uh and with that I'm here to answer any questions you may okay questions first uh Danny Robins thank you chairman uh thank you Mr Brown uh and staff um real quick uh Russ do we have the available homes that are left uh after that 4 point some odd reduction that are available uh for uh housing if they do so choose I'm going to let Mr Barnett answer that question so um in the unincorporated area we're looking at well total right now there's about 28,000 29,000 dwelling units right based on partial data uh when we look at the analysis here then proposed impact we're going to reduce in the unincorporated area that number by about 7,000 right so you're going to be left with about um you know 21,000 dwelling units across all the county uh or roughly about 10,000 dwelling units in the unincorporated area thank you that's all I have Don did you have a question for sta yes I do um this Russ whenever he's done I'm want to talk to Russ but I I'll ask you as well you said uh what do they say about statistics um careful yeah um so you're saying that this proposal is only going to cut down the housing 4% uh 4% of the residential parcels and how we arrive there right we use the property appraiser partial code description uh single family right multif family housing um we basically selected those and then ran those numbers so is it your position that uh these sex offenders are only going to have a four% decrease in their available housing uh if we look at the impact on this yes it'll reduce the unincorporated dwellings available by 4.5% so you're saying that the rest of these available homes are all available to registered sex offenders every landlord out there besides this 4% is is willing to rent to sex offenders no sir all we're saying is that within the five this is the impact within the additional 500 feet it's not about whether there's a willing uh I don't know somebody's intent right they're willing to rent somebody or what not I mean let's let's let's kind of get grounded here how many just for my background I mean and for everybody else I've been doing criminal law for 34 years both as a prosecuter and a defense attorney and I'm against this and the the reason being is because the criminal justice system has already vetted these people to say they're freedom to walk amongst us okay the judges are elected judges are elected State Attorney they've evaluated these cases they've looked at them and instead of going to prison they've reasoned that these people have served their time they've done whatever they had to do and now they're fit to walk amongst us and so now we're creating an additional layer of punishment that we have no business doing and to come here and say it's only 4% I think is disingenuous well I let me let me just correct on that because we have to operate within the data that we have okay well I don't know if the property owners would deem the structure to be vacant or if they'd want to rent to one of these individuals nobody and your staff is going to be able to do that well let's let's do this how many we you've we've spoken with Russ and I collectively have spoken with sex offender probation officers seasoned probation officers in and they've said there's out of this whole County there's only three landlords that'll rent to sex offenders is that correct I know that and this is the recourse we had back and forth last time sir that that was the probation officer's uh indication that there were three and I do know that there are there were other uh addresses that were given to us by actually the sheriff's sex crimes division there was five um and in full disclosure those five that they say are are kind of known multif family dwelling unit at rent uh those five would be caught up in this new 500 ft meaning they would be prohibited correct so so I don't know about the other three but so as part of this study you know we all right now because of the current laws in our mapping in our registered sex offender registry we know where these people live we know where all the sex offenders live now the sheriff can keep track of where they are and if they leave their residents for more than 3 days they have to report tell us where they're going so have has the county looked at where these current registered sex offenders live and how this new ordinance would affect those people they would be all displaced right no sir everybody under if you currently reside in a residence and you're registered your grandfather I understand let's go let's just go five years from now or something okay let's let's talk about our children in the environment they're going to have to live in okay so let's look at the Next Generation so are those places going to be available for the future sex offenders that are released and released into Belia County are they going to have the same places to live that the current ones still if the or if the council's decision today is to approve the ordinance and it's still in effect in five years and those residents reside within the 1500 ft away from the places in the ordinance and no they would not be allowed for new correct so in essence with this there's not going to be anywhere for a new registered sex offender let's say a year from now they get out there's nowhere for them to live in valuchi county is that fair to say no sir I I can't say that well as under the current landlords who are currently leasing to registered sex offenders I can't say that Mr Dempsey what I can say is of the five to eight that we got addresses from they are caught up in this additional 500 feet as based on what we've been told and the for the three for the probation officer cuz I didn't have those addresses they were never given to me to be able to run but I did run the five that the sex crimes unit I believe that's the unit the sheriff has they gave me of known addresses who said that they would be caught up in these additional 500 right so a person getting released from prison who's going to spend the rest of their life as a sex offender they grew up in Holly Hill um where are they going to go where can they rent a place in Bia County based on as as far as you know I understand you don't know everything and I get that but I mean based on your knowledge from the five landlords I guess who do currently rent but they're when you say they're caught up that means no more new sex offenders living on their property correct right correct you can't be registered right so then what happens is there's no way for us to track where they're living they become homeless in the eyes of the registry correct if they don't have a residence they would be homeless correct so there's no way to monitor their location for the sheriff because the five landlords who are renting to register sex offenders we can we know where they are they have to register where they're living and if they leave that location for more than three days they have to report where they're going correct they're supposed to but if they're homeless passes then the new guy getting out of prison being released into our community has nowhere to rent so he's homeless and he's unaccounted for correct yeah I think and you're hypothetical yes I think the situation that we're in is we know we we only have a certain amount of data that we have to operate in this clearly if it were adopted would reduce the number of dwellings that would be available uh for these individuals reduce or eliminate I can't I don't think any of work can say eliminate but it's certainly going to make it more challenging to find an available place it could have the effect of impacting some uh existing facilities that uh are focused on providing a home for these individuals um I have also heard in the past has been talked about that you know if you reduce the number of available and when we say available you know it could be an occupied structure currently you I mean so it's not necessarily vacant but if you reduce the number of dwellings that are available it could result in somebody not able to find a home and I think going to your point that um right now if they have a place and they've registered with the Sheriff's Office you know where they are right yeah so the point being I mean I know we could talk about what ifs but the reality of today is there's only five known landlords that'll even rent I don't are renting I just want to be clear Mr I don't have that information all I have is I was given five addresses of uh known places that that rent to offenders and asked to run those and I did and those with brand Brandon ran them actually I gave him to Brandon he ran them and those five addresses would be within the additional 500 feet I don't know that those are all those are the only five addresses for multif family dwelling units that rent to offenders that's not what I'm saying and additionally it's a five less than 5% reduction in the total amount of units available I'm just saying there are others out there just like the intent to rent we can't say that about somebody else I can't say somebody will or won't there there there are other places uh based on the numbers that would not be caught up in this additional 500 Fe well wait hold on now you just said there's five known landlords that'll rent to sex offenders well I that that you know of that was five addresses that were given to me uh by the sheriff's unit that are addresses that I was led presumed given to me that rent uh right have multif family type how many won't be affected by this how many current landlords who rent to sex offenders won't be affected by this I don't know that number other than the ones outside the 1500 feet right so 100% of those five known landlords that rent to sex offenders will be wiped out not 4% of them not one out of the five but all five are going to be wiped out by this new ordinance five addresses that were given five out of five that's more than 4% right yes sir okay and you recall our conversation with the probation officers um who said that if this passes it'll basically make them all homeless we did have that conversation right it's true right they said it yeah they did yes sir and they also said that basically once they're homeless there's no accounting for for and they're just basically living in the woods living downtown to land on the streets living walking the streets of Daytona walking near playgrounds you don't know where they are right well I just I just want to be clear that I I think it's toally appropriate for you to say that that's not information that's coming from us I'm not saying it's wrong but you know they're not here today I guess to speak to it but if they shared it with you it's good enough for you to say this is a legislative decision by you so it's not not qu you judicial so it's a legislative decision of council my question was to Russo he shared it with us I'm not asking you to trust me but and we will trust you because you don't have to to trust me you don't have to have a witness to substantiate you know your opinion or information so but I heard asking him but I heard the conversation yes okay I'm not just making this up that's all I have you're not thanks done Jake Johansson yes sir um Russ we we had a conversation last week I'm going to bring it up I'm going to ask you to recall it because I want you to trust me now I'm just kid um by the way I'd like to give a shout out to Troy's parents who are watching um um if can I know there might be five there might be eight we can probably find out out from the sheriff where these clusters of of folks are yes sir and I want to be clear so they so the addresses were given to me I do believe and they and the Sheriff's Office been very cooperative and very appreciative and they gave me the addresses and and those are known addresses I believe they were given to me of clusters if if the sheriff has this registry and there's four people living in a place that's good enough for me yes sir so so and and and I think I think the County Attorney brought up and and and you you brought up that that there is space in the county that where homes may or may not be rentable uh that these folks could live in yes sir so if if we if somebody comes out of jail and or or the judge says you're now a sexual offender sexual predator and you don't go to jail I Meine and if you're a offender you might be but not a predator um or vice versa um that that you now need to look for a place and if we approve this Ordinance one of the places you won't be looking is one of these 5 to 8 to however many places and you might have a problem finding a rental in in the clear areas that are available but but now you know where to look right and and I would hope there would be some very nice nonprofit to go these are the places that are that are Predator offender friendly U but but that may not be available right now um so we're not moving the people that are in there now out we're not kicking them out in the street so so they're not homeless and and the people that come out of jail or get a judgment against them currently are living somewhere we hope and and do they have a certain amount of time to find a place to live if where they're living with their family with their parents by the way is I believe they do I don't know what the conditions are i' have to look that up instead okay okay so so in this ordinance is there any way we can gather the locations where where these multiple people live and exclude that not not those people but that location so so if that's if that's council's Direction I would ask to give us time to research that issue to get those addresses in cooperation with the sheriff's with the probation I'm a huge I am a huge fan yes sir of of of these folks clumped together where the sheriff can account for 12 14 16 of them in in one place I I why stop and 16 different places when I can stop in one yes sir um um and from what we've heard from one of the landlords at least I have via a phone call and a few a few emails is that actually she spoke uh early on is that she provides something support of some sort and checks on them every day um uh I like a a person who cares that much to to support those people and would like to continue that um she and people like her probably aren't going to do it in there if they're at 15 18 different houses now granted she's probably getting some kind of rent for them and and I'm a couple of them that have emailed us early on um they have jobs they were you wouldn't know until they mention it right so um uh if I I would love to find a way to carve these places out because I think they're an important piece of our community and and um and then allow the, 1500 foot to to stay to kind of come up with a compromise he's talking about yes sir and so if that's council's direction we would just ask that you essentially you it may be doable we need to research it I have a little bit of concern about a disperate issue impact but we just need to take a look at it y um and then cooperation with the various agencies to make sure we get the addresses that need to be accepted out if you will got and and then um and then if not um uh George and Mike can can we come up with if we can't get there can we come up with innovative ways to work with people that might be able to develop something in the area that's now qualified because what's saying the next Council and six years doesn't say I want to up it to 2,000 now and and now you know I mean we're we're gentrifying left and right and here's another opportunity to do it I I'm not a big fan of it well do you mean uh from a development standpoint yeah work about developing a facility or structures all area allowing it because right now there's well so so your ordinance the exception are you talking about like if a something that's built after and so if we take away these alcol apartment complexes if we take them away these five to8 maybe more you don't know um and and there's no place within the white area can we can we work with those people to to allow them to to build or otherwise repurpose buildings in the unincorporated area to allow them to I I want the Clusters at the end of the day can we move them them somewhere can we help them with maybe not incentives but look here's this is a good idea over here I don't I don't know I don't know so I I I don't know about the exclusions but I will say this is a a big moving Target right um these are school bus stops parks and so as you add to them right new park opens that creates a new exclusion area and so you know we're obligated by the state 16 municipalities this is a big lift every quarter for my group to make sure that the sheriff can operate intelligently yeah all right thank you very much that's all I have Jenny Robins thank you chair uh we heard a testimony uh said that we have no business doing so Russ uh in your um investigation into this um subject uh matter has Society deemed a maximum of 2500 uh feet um statutorily to be acceptable uh in municipalities counties uh yes or no there yes sir there are residents uh excuse me local governments that have 25 200 ft okay with that being said uh Council I'd like to take it to debate and I'll make a motion to approve uh this uh additional residency restriction second councilman Robins makes a motion to approve the extra 500 feet and second was by David Santiago I have one one quick question before we go to debate has the Sheriff's Office rendered opinion on this the sheriff Sheriff this morning it was relayed through his attorney that he does support the ordinance okay thank you uh open for debate and we also have three members of the public who would like to speak to this uh for debate Danny Robbins chairman thank you and just uh so we can just rewind a little bit there was uh overwhelming support uh from law enforcement from the sheriff in his 35 plus years of law enforcement experience and expertise as well as multiple agencies throughout uh Valia County uh that also did support this uh matter but Council we have an argument on the table that an increased residency restriction will make the homeless um uh population of this sector of people uh greater um and that we're not going to be able to track them down with not only my years of experience and training uh and law enforcement I'd say that that couldn't be farther from the truth I'm going to tell you why statutorily they still have to register you can't just put homeless with a question mark and boom poof poof they disappear it is very serious for example on the registry paperwork you have to leave details you just can't put under the oak tree um you can't just say homeless they literally have to put behind Walmart at 4495 Red Tent okay they have to disclose for accountability purposes any new tattoos identifying marks their new phone numbers right right their social media accounts their credit cards or EBT cards all of which are tracked through location services through a carrier of some point computers IP addresses stuff that's attached to your phone so you know to to think that or to create an argument or non-argument or non-issue that this would be uh displacing people and we just wouldn't be able to create a Fear Factor and say we're not going to be able to to track them is highly false with the technology that's out there today and you'd be highly mistaken if we in my opinion believe that um homosexual offenders or Predators is actually very rare you know why they have every incentive to find a place just like Mr Brown um were we able to get those pictures of all the dots uh that we sent to Carissa Carissa are you able to pull it up all the residences and I'll say this when there's a will there's a way there's over a thousand reasons or proof of that uh of that uh statement um they have every incentive to find a place to stay if not counsel what happens it's a violation a failure to register and is mandatory and I'll repeat mandatory prison think about that who wants to go to prison or who has ever said hey I want to go to prison said no one ever yes housing is tough that is the point if they don't like it people are going to be upset I'll personally buy them a bus ticket out of town but this I want to be crystal clear I want folks to know and our families and visitors to know that we will not tolerate or find this Behavior acceptable in our community and I'm not going to cowtail uh or take this laying down and and accept this vile Behavior it's not just going to it's not going to happen with me um there's going to be some arguments where we're going to try to disapprove a negative but if we look at crime Trends throughout the country the state even the community where these laws are in place you'll see less repeat offenses less recidivism and less crime why you may ask because they know the consequences or two they move somewhere else so you know I think we need to um vote in favor of this but um science dictates Council that sexual offenders and predators have a tendency and urge to reoffend if left in an in in and around an environment in which they cannot control their actions this is no different than a drug user no different than a thief or a burglar uh or or leaving those types of people in your home to be unsupervised they will steal science and in history shows that there will be repeat offenses so the only answer I can come up with um is to take them or limit that environment uh greater than what it is take them out of that envir so that we don't have to explain to our kids why somebody in their school or Community got molested why some in their school got abducted why someone in their school was a victim of human trafficking or sexual sexual exploit exploitation or child pornography because these heinous acts happen they don't just create one victim in our community it affects the whole family it affects the whole block it affects our whole Community but believe it or not in some cases those innocent victims become offenders somewhere down the road and as inconvenient counsel to the public as this may seem um I want to ask everybody and ask the victim how inconvenient the trauma and the pain they have faced at the hands of the offender thank you councilman Dempsey yeah that's a very good talking point Danny I just don't know how 500 feet somehow Saves the Day what I don't know if there's any logical correlation over 500 ft 500t from a bus stop more really that's the that's the answer to everything is 500 feet I've been doing this 34 years I know you're I guess questioning my cred I used to prosecute these cases I've defended these cases it's funny everybody checks with law enforcement what's law enforcement yeah let's the Torches in the pitch for let's get them is any body checked with the the local defense bar or anybody checked with the probation officers to ask them hey how does this really affect the the longterm the reality of this it's really a good talking point to get out the pitchforks and the Torches and say let's get them let's burn them let's make their lives as miserable as possible I'm not here even necessarily advocating for them even though they are human beings and the justice system has already deemed them to be fit if they were that bad they would be in prison for the rest of their life but the Justice the justice system has deemed them fit not to be in prison for the rest of their life even though what they're accused of is a minimum mandatory life in prison for some reason they've been vetted through the system and they're allowed to walk the streets so now who are we to step on the judicial system we don't like judges who legislate From the Bench but we got a legislative body here creating laws that the judges have felt these people were free to walk amongst us under the current laws and and what gets me here's an article I'm just talking about tracking these people here's an article uh Fox 30 Jacksonville about St Augustine this was a couple years ago talking about the title is homeless sex offenders become a growing Florida problem okay residents listed on a sex offender registry in Florida must live in certain areas but they are not required to have a permanent address in one case a predator in St John's County was listed as living in the woods behind a wind Dixie the individual has since moved a resident said my concern would be that the children be more for the children you know because they're outside said uh a St John's County resident Action News dug through the registry to find at least six St John's offenders on the registry including two Predators who are listed as transients Action News Jack law and safety expert Dale Carson said it's becoming a growing problem and it's difficult for law enforcement to track these people we find them living under bridges on boats we find them in the Comm community in the community away from the children he said but those individuals specifically are very hard to track in a statement the St John's County Sheriff's Office said all offenders including transients are monitored primarily through the use of an offender watch as well as the FDLE portal quarterly address verifications are completed on all monitored predators and offenders and this data is monitored and updated in the offender watch system a representative went on to say that only the only time of notification is required when a person is a individual is classified as a predator the notification must be made by the to the nearby residents hold I'm going here to the end out Flor Department of Law Enforcement said that all transient offenders are required to register the same way as an individual with a permanent address however the only difference is these individuals must also check in with the sheriff's office in person every 30 days that's just it what you're getting rid of by making these people trans transient is like right now if I live at number one Happy Street and I want to go to Orlando for 4 days to go to Disney World I have to tell the Sheriff's Office where I'm going because I have a registered address and that's where I'm going and I have to let them know if you're transient you can just go go to Disney World go to Universal go hang out you know wherever just go hang out and they have no way of tracking where you are you as long as you report every 30 days you're okay so you don't have the same requirements if you're transient as if you have a residence I want these people to be able to be located at all times I don't want the Sheriff's Office to have to go on a Hunting Expedition or a where's Waldo well where are they which wood okay where in the woods are they I mean we need to have an address and you know what if they're not at that address and we go by there and check four days and they're not there felony I've seen people go to prison for a long time for not being at home after three days and not registering in their new location I've never seen that happen with a transient so I understand why you're trying to be tough on them but I think I think it's going to make it worse for the community instead of better because they're going to be unaccounted for thanks councilman Robbins thank you chair and and and and Don I I try to understand that sometime but I'm not a defense attorney and I I don't show a lot of sympathy um for for some of these acts I'm sorry I don't um but but also to I want to note or make a worthy note that the laws and the judges have deemed it acceptable to increase It 2 200 ft if if if these laws didn't make a difference then why would they be on the books think about that because my next motion is going to be to amend the thousand feet and recommend the 2500 ft I don't want to do that I think I think we can get there and add and give law enforcement additional tool just like we do uh when I was working narcotics do we did this when it came to drug charges there's increased penalties when you're in around a playground like sale and delivery done uh churches schools daycares you know why they work it's a deterrent it gives our law enforcement another tool in their toolbox to make our community safer I just don't see a lot of other AR argument for that there's um I can't speak to St John's I can't speak to the level of their Sheriff's Department what I can do is speak to leadership in our own vucha County Sheriff's Office and our own local municipalities because these guys are on top of it and we have record funding to make our community safer but I also want to provide them this extra tool to say that any one of us where I would be making um the county more unsafe or making these people transient uh don I don't really agree with that because this comes down to individual responsibility I didn't make them to do anything our society has deemed certain things to be acceptable and unacceptable this whether it be by plea whether it be a a trial by jury or their peers um whatever the case may be that is a decision however it happened that they made that they have to deal with to pin that on any one of us when Public Safety really Don is is is all of our responsibility and all of our our goal uh I don't know if that's that's much of an argument there's responsibility that they have to take Society has deemed certain things whether it's a th000 1500 2 20 they they've need it all acceptable by law you know I just I think we're off you know I'm not I'm not upset with you Don I hope you don't don't think that you know but uh I don't see much of an argument to try to make no matter what the argument or defense may be or an excuse why we wouldn't take action to make our community safer when it's been proven time and time and time over again at a city level county level state level and National level throughout the country thank you thank you we have uh three members of the public who would like to speak let's do that uh first and then we'll wrap this up uh first first we have John Nicholson John Tona beach side I understand the need however I'm worried about unintended consequences right um it's an emotional issue basically when I taught school we had to be informed when anything affected a students behavior if uh their parents were in jail their parents separated or divorced and if they uh if they were molested all right every child that I was informed had been molested was molested by a family member only one child 13-year-old girl was molested or raped but she was a prostitute that's what she did for a living she made more money than I did so when you're looking at this these are not strangers in a community doing this I think it's 90% of molesters are known to their victims so what we're doing here by doing this we're saying okay here they can live when dayona Beach did this go to Beachside there's no location whatsoever that they can live because there are schools churches and Parks everywhere and when you do 2,500 ft that's almost a mile they told it's only 5 miles wide on the beat side so it's easy to eliminate them so when you looked at it you could literally go to Clyde Morris before they could live and these people if they come out of jail don't have a lot of money I just found out that this little tiny Motel down the street 1,600 a month for 200 sare ft to Comm move in it's $5,000 how many people coming out of jail has $5,000 in their pocket to rent most of the places that are cheap relatively are going to be in downtowns what you have in the unincorporated those clusters that would have inexperienced or low income uh properties are clustered they're not going to move in next to you Jeff because they can afford a what $400 $500,000 home they're not going to buy out there what do you have to rent out in the middle of nowhere very few rental properties there's no place out where you are that somebody's going to be able to rent a property for500 or $600 not a 10 acre five-bedroom house what you've done is you've now excluded them basically from anywhere in the county we got sued as the city when we were trying to exclude adult clubs we restricted it so badly that they went to court and the court said yes that's right throw it out so we got sued because there weren't enough locations if you say there's absolutely no locations for them to rent in valua County I can imagine a lawsuit thank you Julie Martin good afternoon my name is Julie Martin and I've been writing to sex offenders for 15 years and I wish that this could be a question and answer period because I could answer all of your questions Mr Robbins I think you're a little misinformed on what a sex offender is because it can be a contractor who peed on the side of the road using his truck door it can be a young man who's sexting his girlfriend the man or person who committed a horrific crime is not getting out of prison to face these ordinances he's in for Life the people you're hurting are not the people who made these horrific mistakes it's unfortunate that they do but the person ahead of me was correct offenders are not violent extremely likely to use physical violence that's not who they are they're conmen they take a situation they take advantage of of it and it is a lot of times family or a neighbor or someone they know which is why educating our children is so important for them to understand what is right and what is wrong but adding another layer to them after they have served their time in prison what kind of opportunity do they have yes they made a mistake but if they paid their time in prison don't they have the opportunity to get out I probably own all those properties that you have listed I'd be happy to go over them with you make it easier on you I own seven of them in Valia County I make sure my guys are doing the right thing I really do I don't want them to hurt someone it is not my intention but if they're doing the right thing isn't it better for them to be monitored by me and probation and the state if they're in the woods how do they charge their device if they're in the woods how are they clean to get a job they need an opportunity if you take it away from them they're going to be desperate and they will want to go back to prison it happens they don't know what to do they get scared and at least they have food and they will go commit a crime so they can go back John Freeman good afternoon I'm John Freeman I was born in Halifax Hospital 68 years ago and I grew up in this area so I'm one of those natives that hangs around uh when I was young my uh Teenage Uncle went to Vietnam died as a teenager within a month of getting there shortly after I went into the service at 17 to go to Vietnam I served until the late 80s all that the important thing about that is that after a while I got out I lost friends I had uh therefore put it in my my mind to help out veterans and people that I met that were veterans were having problems while along the way I also started dealing with people coming out of Prisons I dealt with registrants people that are on sex offenders and what have you I I have an old 96 beater that I drive people around to appointment so they can go see the doctor or pick up groceries or whatever they need to do I get them to uh group therapy one of the biggest problems I have I also run a prison ministry uh is is people especially offenders getting out having a place to live sure there's all kind of houses out there there's only so many that will open their door to rent to a sex offender and if you start cutting out the number of houses out there that significantly reduces the number of people they can rent to sex offenders I know Thomas Jefferson spoke about life that was the very first thing in the Bill of Rights was life maslo said that's one of the basic needs people have is a place to have a house or a roof over your head and food and safety from the elements and what have if we start cutting away sections because we want to say uh we don't want you in our area well isn't that punitive aren't you saying we don't want you in our area so we're going to do what we can is squeeze you out of the area I've seen people that are working dog on hard trying to do their assessments getting all the jumping through all the Hoops they have to do through probation what have you and I know some of them that live in the woods some of the guys I help veterans that have one leg or no legs I had a friend that was blind he was blinded in prison because of his charges guess what they found out he wasn't guilty but he was also a doctor in Vietnam so all this let's throw them out in the woods well you're talking about your fellow veterans the people that have served this country you're talking about people you can say offender like they say they don't say convict anymore they say inmate no these are people and what we do here we reflect on how we as a people uh are seen later on how well we take care of those that have aired thank [Music] you uh councilman Robbins uh chair just just in in closing I want to add uh I forgot to do it earlier and and and thank you for giving me a a third a third time here just to close this out uh hopefully but um the state attorney also sent a a letter of support of this uh as our our kind of chief official in in this area and I would just note that um with that being said if if uh if if if it wasn't deemed U acceptable uh he of all people would um would possibly uh say something about it and and guys you know I try to understand this I think um I think I we just think maybe a little bit different I I I I I don't know what the answer is but but what I do want to say is that uh and reiterate that that U things like this are put in place uh for for Public Safety and I want to um there's some very ma'am you had said a couple things about a contractor who peed on on on the side of the road Chris I sent you over some jury instructions I just want to go ahead and put this to bed are you able to pull those up uh page one and two that I given you are you able to put them together by chance I'll just go there there's sever several elements um that the jury has to consider consider when um convicting um people in this and and we have to be completely accurate uh one of the elements uh is the intended exposure exhibition of his or her sexual orance to be in a vulgar indecent lwd or lascivious manner um the exposure of uh exhibition of the sexual organs was in a vulgar indecent lud or lascivious matter you go and put the second part portion of it up Carissa uh nakedness and a vulgar and decent the nakedness was in vulgar and decent LW and lascivious proof of mere nudity or exposure of sexual is not sufficient for you to find a defendant guilty and this is uh a baseline of what our judicial system uses to convict I'm not making this stuff up I I see you're shaking your head um uh as in used in regard to this offense and words vulgar and it goes on this so you know I'm trying to deal in facts here um I'm trying to respect but I just think I'm off uh from that thought process um but uh if there's nothing else uh Council I'd like to call the question uh calling the question means we have to go to an immediate vote we have two members that would like to speak Council I'm sorry I didn't see you guys up there that's my fault sorry I'll retract that Jake Johansson um I'm I just want to say clarification I might have to ask Russ or or Don for for this um those were jury instructions that we just got but you know what I'm I'm I'm tried to stay away from this but but I I have an acquaintance who's in this situation and and he never went to court so it was you know you might go to jail for 20 years and all the stuff that comes with going to jail is a sex offender or you could plea and it and it was a a urinating in public thing and and given that he he plead and so here he is he he peed public probably the wrong thing to do um um and so so now he's he's registered and he has to uh um he has to live by these rules and and none of that stuff that was just mentioned a second ago um fell for him he he just pled cuz he didn't want to go to jail and and all the things that resulted from that um so so how how do we make that leap of faith um that I I know the person that that that councilman Robbins is thinking of and I know that person he's in jail hopefully if all that stuff is true but again um I'm I'm going to ask you a rhetorical question how many people have peed in public here on the Das and and if you did it at the wrong place at the wrong time um you might have played as well so um I'm I'm not saying to change your mind but but it it's not just people that go to court or go to the uh jury trial that end up in this position thank you councilman Dempsey yeah thanks Jake I'm glad you asked that because I don't know if you guys remember the last time we were discussing this I brought this up that's my biggest beef with the system that's why I ran I ran State Attorney a couple of years ago and I lost because I ran against minimum mandatory sentencing I'm against any type of minimum mandatory sentencing because it it takes away the checks and balances of our system and when we got the legislature saying anybody who's accused of peeing or exposing themselves in front of a minor under the 12 or under they're facing you know life so every single one of you I've never peed on the I don't know if anybody's peed on it die quite but no you would none of you would play Russian Roulette I did this last time none of you you all know what it is there's only a one bullet in that in that revolver so five and six chance you're going to win at Russian Roulette but none of you would play it for a million dollars and this is to answer Jake's question the reason any of you would play Russian I mean the reason you won't play Russian Roulette is because you know if you lose if that one in six bullet comes up you're dead so what happens with people like Jake and a lot of the people I deal with and I've dealt with both as a prosecutor remember I'm former law enforcement too Danny I'm not just a bleeding heart defense lawyer I'm a former prosecutor who used to prosecute these people I prosecuted one of the biggest known molesters on the east side back in the early 90s okay so I'm not simp sympathetic to these people but you have to understand the people that Jake's talking about the people that she's talking about the people that I'm talking about are the people who have 10 images on their computer I don't know how they got I can sneak on you when you go to the bathroom I can get on there and hit get 10 images on there guilty now you want to go to trial because sorry if you go to trial you're not going to play Russian Roulette but if you go to trial on those allegations you'll probably win five and six chance chance you're going to win just like in Russian Roulette but if you lose you get a bad jury now you're going to prison for life it's going to cost you your life a lifetime of being raped by inmates beaten by the guards a lifetime of misery so what happens sorry so what happens is the state attorney dangles this carrot we'll offer you probation we'll let you walk amongst us okay we're not going to send you to prison for life where in the cases where the person confesses or the child is pregnant or there's uh STDs or there's a you recorded phone call where you got concrete evidence that this person committed this heinous crime it's the questionable cases where they find it on David's computer Dave's like I didn't know it was on there yeah right it was on your computer go to trial if you got a defense or so so so you're going to go to trial you feel lucky or are you going to take the probation as a second offender those are the people we're talking about and just like Jake's friend and like countless other people that I deal with all the time those are the people that I don't want to see having to live in the woods the ones that didn't have the courage to pull the trigger it sounds great I've I've read that jury instruction countless times in my 34 years both as a prosecutor and defense attorney the problem is they don't go to trial because nobody not one of us and probably 90% of those people 99% don't have the courage to pull that trigger and take their fate in front of six Unknown People when the state's dangling a guarantee of no prison going to be a sex offender if you're in valua you're going to have to live in the woods now but who ask yourself if you would really have the courage if I accused one of you of doing something to my daughter would you really feel comfortable taking that in front of a jury especially if the state attorney was offering you probation and a guarantee or you will to RIS R your life the rest of your life there a lot of people don't have the money or the courage to take that to trial that sounds great in theory Danny but in the reality of it is most people don't have the courage or the money to fight it effectively they take a plea and they count on people like this to at least give them some sense of stability in her life and a chance at recovering from a lot of times what I think are false allegations I think this is the biggest one of the biggest fallacies of our system is just we're too quick to just tough on crime yeah let's just burn you know it's it's it's low hanging fruit politically to want to hammer these people there's a lot of innocent people caught up in the net and that's who I'm concerned about that's all thanks thank you uh count Vice chair Kent thank you chairman I've not asked any questions or weighed in on this and I'll just say I came in here thinking one way and then you know I listened to to Mr Robbins and I started feeling a different way then I listen to Don I feel another way then I hear Jake talk and I feel another way and this is this is a struggle for me but I will say it weighs on me that um the sheriff is is behind this it also um weighs on me that the um State Attorney weighed in on this but I have to say you know five of the seven of us represent about 115 120,000 people I've not had one of my constituents ask for this and if any of you have I'd like to hear about it because I've not had that I've not had anybody call me and say Hey I want you to take this up or I saw this in the paper I want you to support this so that weighs on me also um this this isn't an easy decision which is why it's been brought up before us several times our attorneys have worked on it uh and we're sitting here this evening doing the hard work that the people elected us to do so I I really don't know where I'm I'm going to end up on this with a yes or no because um you know Jake when you hear a story like that I mean it it absolutely will will rattle you because it's not you know when you think about the heinous horrendous things it's it's easy to say burn them this is it you know and if my memory is right you know back whenever Florida agreed with the death penalty there was a very very um effective commercial if my memory is correct I was a little kid but it was this guy being led to the to the death chamber and I mean he was just pleading with please please I didn't do it I didn't do anything please don't do this to me and then the next scene was this little child saying please please I didn't do anything to you you know and then it goes back to this guy ready for the death penalty and you're you know was very effective because you're like get him you know how dare you hurt a child but there's another side to the story Jake and and you you shared that and Don you know because of your day job you share that you represent people who aren't willing for lack of better terms to play Russian Roulette and now they have that scarlet letter for the rest of their life and they very well could have been urinating in public or I mean it's it's inappropriate I guess the takeaway from that is just do it in your pants I guess I mean just I mean really I mean really I mean it's it's it's frightening when you hear about stories like that um I don't know where I'm gon to be on this I haven't weighed in either but uh I'll just do it quickly um I think Don just like we did the first time this came up I think you because of your experience um you make a compelling art argument that um I'm more afraid of the unintended consequences of this of the harm that we would do to the public um and to people that um um I'm not even going to go through all the possibilities of of what they could have been tagged with a young guy with a um a younger girlfriend whatever it is um if my phone was ringing if I got any emails if if I if I saw headlines in the newspapers that this was a problem in Valia County I'd feel differently I think this is lwh hanging political fruit and I I don't like that um so uh I I'm going to I'm going to oppose it with you for the the reasons that um you have said and um I think we have a system in place that is that is uh taking care of these people and keeping them accountable um I just I don't I'm not hearing of a of a larger wider problem um councilman Santiago thank you while he can certainly defend himself I only chimed in because I I don't think it's a it's a political um uh posturing with with this ordinance proposal I think even before I got on the council the the council member Robins had mentioned this is the priority of his back to me before I got on here um I I I recognize that it's a difficult decision I also recognize that other municipalities or Counties have done similar and it seems to be working um while it might not be convenient um for some folks um it's not quite the same Don I was reflecting back on your other AR arguments earlier today with the four cars right that would would make a difference it's not quite the same I I won't make it apples and apples but you I think you alluded to that if one more car holds there then one more can have an accident though I don't use these analogies like but if this does save one more or prevent one person from being in an area that they probably shouldn't be near a child that could cause a problem which I know isn't the sole problem I'm going to hate the fact that I just said that analogy because I'm going to counter it to somebody in the future but I was just thinking about your comments earlier um that was just more sport than anything um but I I think um it seems to be working other places there's not an uh an uproar of um advocacy saying you know don't do this in U or hasn't worked in other communities so that's why I support it and I think um Danny has been steadfast in working on this for a long time now and uh I'm inclined to give it a shot thank you Mr chair okay and not seeing anyone else wishing to speak uh Carissa would you call the role Mr dimsey no Mr Johansson yes Mr Kent yes Mr Reinhardt yes Mr Robbins yes Mr Santiago that was a yes for the record Mr Brower no and the the ordinance passes uh 5-2 uh Jake Johansson I I'm just put myself in the queue for the next one before it gets item 12 uh is the chair at large and district one you want to get in the queue before somebody takes your nominee nominee and District three appointments to the affordable housing advisory uh committee um before I before I call on Jake there are two people on the list that you said don't uh qualify for any of the required positions are they so are they not able to be nominated they can be nominated however six out of the eight categories do need to be filled so what I'm going to ask is after um the four of you make your nom n minations I'm going to go ahead and rearrange some of the categories of the individuals that were appointed at the last meeting to ensure that we get that six out of eight okay all right then uh go ahead Jake Johansson sir I and excuse me Carissa but I can't my my item won't come up but the person that from faith is not on this list right now correct correct and so so you all you all know after that the last meeting that I I wanted somebody from faith I reached out to the faith group they provided me a name um that name is going through the the checks right now but but we don't know where she'll fit so it's important to me to get somebody with faith if it's not important with you to you then then then I'll just keep trying or eventually pick somebody but Mr Johansson I do have the individual that you're talking about I did go ahead and get the positions that they would fill so I will take that into consideration and once that individual does pass the Clean Hands check I will bring that individual back at can can we know what what places and and then that way the council members that will choose somebody um no where that person might fit the only indivi the only position that that individual fits in is a citizen who is actively engaged as an advocate for low-income persons in connection with affordable housing so item four three or I I I IV IV got it copy all right so so you all know that my only person right now that I would want would fit into uh um four Roman numeral four if you choose to allow me that person later on which again um that place is currently filled by Mr Mark billing so um at the end of this once the other three of you make your nominations I will need to just go ahead ahead and move some individuals around and then I would um like a motion and vote to confirm those position changes category changes okay so you're going to wait until the next meeting po possibly depending on how everybody votes this afternoon okay uh Danny Robbins thanks chair Chris who who I'm a little confused who exactly of the applicants do we have left yes sir you do have an Evans she is incumbent DJ Leo Libo she is also incumbent Terry citam and Phyllis Terry Malia those are the four individuals i' like to nominate DJ Libo please second can you tell me who seconded that David Santiago so we have uh BJ Libo by Danny Robbins seconded by Santiago uh don Dempsey uh an Evans yes we have Anne Evans by Don Dempsey seconded by uh Troy Kent and I will do uh tering saturan is there a second on Terry second by David Santiago and um that's all of us for now so if we can vote on them and then we'll take up your second question uh Ann Evans BJ Libo Terry citran All In favor say I I I any opposed and those three nominees are U appointed and I came prepared I already have the categories that they need to be appointed to so it will take a minute for me to name them all as well as their categories and then I'll just take a motion and vote on what I asked for okay um so Mr Mark Billings which is Mr brower's first appointment um would be elected to a citizen who is actively engaged in the residential home building industry in connection with affordable housing Mr Johansson's appointment would be at the next meeting confirmed to a citizen who has actively engaged as an advocate for low-income persons in connection with affordable housing Miss Anne Evans would be a citizen who is actively engaged as a not for-profit provider of affordable housing Suzanne oina which was Mr reinhardt's appointment from the last meeting would be a citizen who is actively engaged as a real estate professional in connection with affordable housing Mr Wayan n which is Mr Kent's appointment would be a citizen who resides within the unincorporated areas of the county Mr Dwight Selby which is Mr Santiago's appointment would be to the category of a citizen who represents employers within the county um and DJ Libo would be I believe Mr Brower just appointed her would be a citizen who represents entral service personnel as defined in the local housing assistance plan and then um Terry that was Mr brower's appointment would be an applicant that does not fit in a category so you you would actually have seven out of the eight categories filled okay so you need a motion to approve uh everything you just said and a second is there a motion motion to approve as stated by Carissa motion to approve um by Jake Johansson second by Matt Reinhardt all in favor say I any opposed okay that takes care of that and we will uh move to public participation do you you do have some thank you uh John Nicholson John Nicholson Daytona Beach side couple of issues uh one which didn't come up when you were discussing that uh the roadway and that development in the hill to get that Hill out of there is only $220,000 it's a dirt cheap and if whether this project goes in or not I would ask you all to ask uh George to find the money to get rid of that Hill cuz I personally hate going down a road and not being able to see 100 feet in front of me so if we can eliminate this it would be great uh secondly uh zone changes um I understand what the people there were talking about there has to be development but we've set aside the center basically of valuch County for Animals is there a way of creating a permanent Zone where there are large properties 2 Acres 5 Acres 10 acres or whatever that will be permanently in that category of Farms or whatever because at this point you could be in the middle of nowhere and then at some point somebody comes up and wants to change the zoning and you said or some future uh Council says oh yeah that's fine and then he ends up with whatever next to him um Zephyr Hills Water development or something of that nature um third affordable housing I know it doesn't uh apply to you mostly but there are areas that uh boarding houses I just read an article on that we used to have them years and years ago um where single men could pay $10 a night or $40 a week or whatever it was who are working newly divorced traveling whatever they can afford it it would get them off the streets there are men out there who are homeless but have jobs or have ability to get jobs and they need a place to stay um and lastly the YMCA and the echo I had a problem with a religious thing Salvation Army with all of it all the things it does and Y I'm say are still religious organizations how we uh balance their right to be private versus their public use uh to me if they're providing uh environmental land if they're providing a service to our children especially Sports if they if they're doing that they're doing something that we would normally do ourselves and it would cost us money to have the fields to have the employees to maintain the fields if they're going to do that for us and provide a service to our children there's 600,000 of us not all of us are belong to that church but if all of our children can have access to additional Services I would okay that with Echo grants thank you thank you and that is the end of public participation so we will move to uh comments by County Manager George ronall I have none I will move to County attorney Michael Dyer yes sir uh Mr Peto uh is here hiding uh as he normally does behind the Das but I sent you an email um he uh handled the County's case in the recent uh hearing we had on involving the West floa Hospital authorities obligation to contribute to the County's Medicaid contribution and this case as I know you all know and prior council's gone on for a little over two years years um this was the last case pending before the trial court where they were arguing that they were not responsible for that Medicaid contribution uh we're waiting on the written order but the Court ruled in the County's favor it's consistent with the prior rulings um I just want to thank him and his team for their very hard work on that it's been a long road thank you for your patience and uh my wife just walked in so if you could maybe share with her at the end of the meeting how much you enjoy working with me I'd appreciate it thank you did you ask her to stand oh I I see a hand okay okay that brings us to uh council's closing comments uh don Dempsey you are first today yeah um I have nothing for today I appreciate it thanks Jake Joan yes sir I'd like to verify that April 30th uh is in fact going to be a workshop here and and we are going to informally go through those agenda items we discussed is that correct George yes yes sir Workshop we that's uh we call a workshop we can advertise it as a questional meeting but to give you flexibility but uh otherwise it would be a workshop yeah I I think it's important that it's clear and expectations are set that that regardless of what we call it we are we are going to discuss where we want to go as part of our goal setting on on this and then and I guess what I'm getting at is is when we have workshops that involve unlimited public comment it quickly devolves into something we don't want we have work to do uh and I I think it's important that April thir 30th we we work this is like this is like having a conversation back at the lunch table that we can't have but we have to have it in the sunshine so we're going to have it in the sunshine and everybody can listen to what we're going to say and and then comment when the things come back for for comment um I I just want to make sure that expectation set yeah and it's currently cued to be a an advertise as a workshop perfect perfect thank you Vice chair K thank you chairman uh briefly just a a couple of things first of all uh Mike D where's your wife where's Katie is she here really or are you joking oh listen I got got to tell you what a great guy you you know you know what a great guy he is um but he is a pleasure to work with so we heard earlier and we've been hearing a lot about flooding and some causes and things like that and and Council listen I just want to remind everybody you know you can you can get in a if you have an opportunity to get into a small plane or when you're flying back into the area and you take a look at Florida as you're coming over the the the land map there's water everywhere I mean there are ponds everywhere and it made me think you know what's the highest elevation in Florida it's Britain Hill it's 345 ft above mean sea level Britain Hill is Florida's highest natural point and the lowest high point in the United States you can Summit it without a sherpa and it says your grandmother can get to the top without breaking a sweat okay it's what it says and then of course it made me think of mountain Dora and Mountain Dora for those of you that want to know is 184 ft above sea level we live in a very flat place and when we have a lot of rain we're going to have a lot of water it just is is part of the process last but certainly not least is there was a horrific accident on LPGA Boulevard uh a few days ago and you know I I don't even want to think about what the Heralds are going through but I have been to that location in the past and I have pulled out of that location in the past and it's dangerous so George I want to know if the county is looking into um a possible light at this location I know that we're talking about a transfer of that road with the state but what's the cross street I'll PJ and remember off off off the top of my head Ben do you know exactly what which one cross street it is it's the entrance to The Preserve at LPGA The Preserve at LPGA yes sir and uh we were I was made aware of that accident yesterday yeah and I've already spoken to our traffic engineering staff we're going to take a look at it one of our vouch County families lost their six-year-old daughter and I know that the community is reeling from this and I'm I'm bringing it up because of the the tragic accident but also if you've not been out there you need to go out there and you need to try to pull out with that curve right there and if the county can can do something before the state takes over that road great but I want the community to know that this Council when we find something or we hear about something that is unsafe that we do everything we can in our power to try to change that we'll take a look we'll study it there's criteria and we'll look at that and anything else we can do so thank you and and my my thoughts and prayers go out to the Herold family I don't I don't know them but it's an absolute tragedy for this family and and our community and with that I'll say good evening councilman rinard thank you chair um first first thing when we talked about the Echo projects and whatnot that were going on and I asked a question about Daytona resubmitting and I heard that they had not uh not as of yet my understanding so my recommendation to those that are listening right now that are with that project I would encourage you to do so um the ISB beach access Kudos so that's a long weighted project I know John and I had discussed that actually and uh why asked the questions in conjunction with fdot's uh doing that road we can all have it at one time it is it's a major you know when we talked about Bevel Road and coming in that was an entry point to vucha county or to Daytona I'm sorry to Daytona uh same thing could be said uh the entrance to the beach that is one of the main entrances so kudos for that and the the project as it moves along um other than that uh don is not here right now or I tell him he's never allowed to watch any movies about corrections offers ever again okay because we're not like that yeah Shaw Shank that's out take it out of your movie repertoire it it's you knowl no no and the wardens in there nothing like what you see doesn't happen so uh so you're not allowed to watch them anymore Hollywood exaggerates that and that's all I have thank you very much councilman Robbins uh nothing uh too much uh pressing uh chairman uh Council thank you um I just want to make made some observations here in this this last 14 months and this is strictly my opinion but this Council has made some great strides and staff has made some some great strides and improvements to to the way we do business and and looking at um ordinances and and going through this I'm just uh I'm not saying this CU I got an Ask here in just a second but I'm proud of you guys uh sincerely I'm proud of staff and uh proud for the uh the community engagement but now okay you ready so the Sanford Zoo uh has uh a zip line a zip line on no dirt bikes no BMX just zipline um and and I think they have it um uh they put it out uh you know for bid I'd have to follow up but um I'd like to to got to look into that I don't want the the county to maybe uh operate it I want to see if that's something that's uh amicable or or something that that Council may be interested to to uh put out uh you know in the community for you know there's ones for like Toddlers and kids up to a certain weight and then but what a better way I went on it and I'm not the flex the most flexible individual but it was fun uh but pick a park on the east side and the west side and put it out to a company to to possibly run run but is that something that that we can we can maybe look into are you guys opposed to is it yeah there's a little one in Daytona but it'sa Park it's a we're going to have one over the tub grinder at the landfill to make it exciting but there you go more of an Adventure Park situation but on a serious note I mean tusco Park I mean it's it's kind of inundated with with with homeless and and uh but we could look seriously at other amenities we're looking at you know we can take a look but you know just to be fair if if we can look at to see what it would take for somebody to make it worth their while but to pick up one of our major parks on the east side and so don isn't crying in the corner we'll pick one on the west side but uh that's all you know I uh I try to bring up things that that our family enjoys and and I know other people enjoy that I see that are highly used and I'll tell you that Sanford zoo man it's got a lot lot of cool stuff so uh hopefully we can bring some of that to valua but thank you guys councilman Santiago thank you Mr chairman uh Mike is your wife still here yes I just wanted to um to say to her everything that Troy said about your husband I disagree with him just you know so um no Mike I love you you forgot to say Mike batting a th dire Mike batting a th D dire that's his nickname here um Troy I'm um uh Danny I'm open to your idea um I I just want to put this out on I I hope we don't debate it today but I don't want to forget it but I wanted the council to give it some thought when I had an observation when I went home at last council meeting um that the process that we have in place I'd like to open it up for potential change in the future um for example example I'll just use gny you've come up with several initiatives here over the last year I've been here um and you get consensus to say hey we want to look into this and that or whatever it might be and then we have a discussion briefly usually about it and then staff comes and presents a a package to us and then staff goes again if it goes from there it goes again and then we have another ordinance hearing um and there there's so many of these bites at the Apple so I find us debating the same thing three times um I'm talking about efficiency only um I I I'm I'm okay with I'll just use you again Danny if you have a concept that you want to put forward an ordinance to come back I'm okay with you know getting consensus for you to propose this ordinance work with staff come back with an ordinance that is advertised it's advertised that we're going to be hearing this particular item before the council for decision for Amendment and then let's have the vetting process he could either come or go at that point we get all these bites of the apples and causes again the meetings to go long and redundant it still provides the public an opportunity noticed opportunity of what we're going to discuss but it it just ter I think it's awfully inefficient that we sometimes do things three times and it's almost always the same debate so just if I'm talking about initiatives that we put forward Jake you got an idea move forward meet with staff this are the ideas that Jake has in it and come before the council we make a decision if I could I I think the two you're batting a thousand I'm we getting lower your ranking okay hopefully you still think so you know the the two ordinances that came forward today I think are really bad examples of the issue and I understand what you're identifying because the uh Medical ordinance it is unusual I haven't had an ordinance in my time here that we've had penny for years but the the party that requested asked for time to possibly adjust what their request was so it wasn't us that did it the sex offender ordinance for example I think typically our ordinances are going to be just as you said David and I think we we get direction we're bringing back to you uh if there's a a big deviation to what we proposed we have to read vertise and bring it back most time we don't have to do that I mean you either vote it up or down the sex offender ordinance was a little different because Council has adjusted what it was requesting along the way I'm with you 100% I mean I we do not typically our approach with an ordinances if we get direction we bring it back to you advertised free to vote on yeah I think the one that reflected last meeting was the uh the repeal of the gun uh issue that you prefered then we're going to hear that issue again because that was just a discussion right so I would have I would have preferred to at that point dealt with it as the business has advertised we can take a look at that closer and see I would say the the times where we have bring them back for discussion is usually it's something that's brought up at the end of the meeting Council hasn't had a full vetting of discussion about I I'm give you more Direction and that was the point that I was giving if it's an initiative or an idea of one of the council members I would say if you get consensus follow up with staff hey this is what I'm thinking this is what I was trying to propose put an ordinance together and then we decide or modify it in any way during that public hearing just trying to be more efficient thank you Mr chair I'm done Mike does every ordinance have to come back for two readings no sir our default uh only those changes to your zoning code that change the permitted excluded use of zoning District due all your other ordinances can be one reading if you make a change a change kind of a larger substantive change to it because that impacts the title we just have to read vertise which is fine I mean sometimes that may come up a lot of times I think you're just going to vote it up and down as it's proposed okay thank you is your wife still here yes yeah she's still waiting have dinner reservations at 7 I'm gonna be quick because I said we would be done at 7 I just wanted to let Mrs Dyer know that she's doing a tremendous job raising your children while while you're at work um I thought you talking about Mike you pardon me I thought you talking about raising mik CU I would agree then I will I as you can tell I'm having a hard time uh talking today so I'm I'm not going to say much I think either David or Matt have changed their um colog and I'm highly allergic to it uh see I can't even laugh because it makes me want to cough so uh I did I did want to say one thing because in the in one of the debates um it was brought up that if you sit on the council and you propose something well what have you done I didn't want to respond to it then and none of us did because I really resist the um changing a council meeting into a back and forth and I I I don't want them to spin out of control I don't want it to be a a tit fortat I think the public deserves better but I I will say this when it comes to the flooding issue because I I talk about it a lot and I talk about changing our development pattern it doesn't mean I'm against all development it means that we see some issues even when standards are carried out and so we need to investigate that to um see if there's changes that need to be made so one of the things that that I have done consistently is to say no to um zoning changes um I've o promoted low impact development um which has been sent to enra and they've come back with at least a start of that and I'm I'm pleased with that I think it's it's weak and it's it's not complete but but it's a start and and now we can come back with it but one of the things that happened today I think could be the most significant thing to to um investigate and and bring up bring up remedies for for flooding wherever it occurs is the uh is chapter nine of the of the comp plan that we've had that that has some tremendous um uh not suggestions you know the shall do and if we would follow that it and which we decided to do today um uh Ben bartlet's going to do two more studies and we're going to complete the studies and then the trigger is pulled that we have to come up with a uh uh um I'm trying not to start coughing um with concrete plans I I want to see us do that there's another thing that I I would like to add but I'm going to talk with legal staff about it uh first this week and um so I'll make an appointment with you Mike and uh but today I think uh um we had robust debate uh and it was civil it was it was educational to me and I think that's what the public deserves and so um and what they want um and I appreciate how the day went and so with that I'm going to stop and adjourn the meeting at 7:13 e e