##VIDEO ID:Q2ywYUaBSzw## girl sh still that's true definely that's more before [Music] girl to hello hello good afternoon everyone one more time Che leader voice thank you I you don't want to be called out um thank you everyone for being here I will call the October 2nd meeting of uh 20124 enra to order and it certainly appears that we have a forum so and we don't have anyone participating online yeah we need to do roll call and then we'll talk about okay online sorry so that's okay Melissa lammer here Jessica gal here Wendy Anderson Donna brosman here Tom here for now comment please I have a technician coming to my house sometime today between 4 and 6 so if I get up and Bol suddenly please don't take it person thank you here thank you B Simmons here John hob Mr hob is online so when we're done with this we're going to have to vote to allow him to participate uh same with bliss Jameson she's also online we're gonna have to vote for that so John Dona here Tyler lber I am s morisy here Jack seret told us he wasn't goingon to be here Michelle Whit here and Bill lights here okay so we do have two members that would like to participate online if you'd like to address that uh we need a motion from the FL to allow them to participate virtually Tyler motion any second motion okay Donna Mo Donna moved and Tyler seconded that we allow John H and Bliss Jameson to participate virtually any discussion all those in favor I any opposed motion carries John Bliss you're in and Mr h let us know that um he's catching a flight so at some point he will drop off the call and so um Mr H if you have to go if you would let us know but we'll watch to on the screen just it will be about 3 o'clock thank you very much um before we start our regular business meeting we do have fortunately a fully constituted committee today with reappointments and new appointments so I think it would be nice for us to go around the room and just briefly introduce ourselves to one another um and before we get going and if you don't mind Tom would you like to kick it off just tell us a little about yourself and your relationship to this committee oh wow uh former land surveyor then went to work for the county bcia was a property P mapping supervisor for a number of years drifted into planning for a while then went to work for Z col Associates as a draftsman came out as a project engineer 20 years later went to work for the city of Delon as a planning manager was briefly the acting director I lived in Deltona since 1967 I'm number three not number one sadly um yeah I know uh I've degreed in um techn illustration management Environmental Management and gerontology and uh this is fun thank you thank you very much and continuing to put new people on this spot John would you like to introduce yourself to us I'm John architect before that I was a school teacher in St Pete um I also had a degree in in Urban Design and planning I was I worked for the planning department Miami Beach Yar Florida and I was the city architect of Anapolis Maryland spent close to 20 30 years in Academia and in 2010 I came to Orlando was the founding director dark culture uh I live staggering distance from J Fish Camp on in the F Beach thank you very much B yeah I have to go excuse me Bob fit Simmons uh lifetime resident of Florida 40-year resident of Lucia County home builder and developer uh currently uh Gallery homes of the land and uh that's the real quick down and dirty thank you Bob Tyler Tyler lber I'm 38 I was born and raised in land got my engineering degree from UF and 08 and I worked at do for about nine years and then I've been private sector roadway and drainage engineer since then thank you Tyler I'll go last Jessica Jessica G land environmental attorney with C Law Firm I'm and current chair of Lucha County Association for responsible development and a few other things that we don't need to go thank you Jessica sirly greetings welcome new members um sirly morisy I've been in Bia since 87 came here to be a city planner for city of Daytona and did that for a while and then got recruited by the school district and established planning for the school district for almost 30 years and uh did did School construction and development worked with a number number of the good folks here during that time thank you Sarah Lee Bill and welcome back Bill thank you I'm Bill lights um I'm an environmental consultant uh long long time lifetime Florida resident um been doing environmental Consulting and um plan planning but really that's for the planners and Engineers so I work for an engineering firm now and um just do a lot of this uh code review and development design by water obious in Colorado for nine years before com back toip County uh and the special projects that I that I did um in my professional life um were mostly uh water land use and comprehensive plan related um landfill U remediations and and major annexations and things like that and everything had something to do with with um water so I guess that's F thank you Donna and Michelle welcome hi good afternoon Michelle W I'm a civil engineer and I've spent the last five years in Land Development currently pivoted my career back to where I started into the waterf so I'm happy to be here and collaborate with you guys so make things better and do things right thank you very much lendy I lendy Anderson and I'm an environmental science professor at statson University and um I apologize for being being late I do teach a class until 1:15 that I I let go early but still not early enough to be on time anyway um so yeah I've been on this committee for two years and um a lot of my interests are in water quality and ecosystem protection and you know the the ways that wetlands and other ecosystems uh are part of the hydrologic system so um yeah thank you very much Liss would you like to introduce yourself the online Universe um good afternoon my name is bliss Jamison um I represent the southeast valuu manufacturing and Technology Coalition I am a realtor for Massie properties and also represent Massie Ranch Air Park in Edgewater thank you very much Bliss and John would you like to introduce yourself yes ma'am can you hear me yes we can okay good uh John HBL uh lifetime resident blouch County uh have a small farm up in Deon Springs uh been working that uh third generation went to work for the state of far uh state of Florida's Florida Farm beer Federation and was State president for about 15 years now I'm retired and just dink around and fish and enjoy the outdoors thank you very much John and my name is Melissa Lamers um this is also my second term on the committee like most of us um I'm a former marketing Communications professional but for many many years including the almost 60 yes I'm old years that I've lived in bisha County um the environment is extremely important to me I'm on the board of aabon Florida at the state level I'm on the board of Halifax River aabon the envir the environmental Council of Lucia Flagler counties the League of Women Voters natural resources advisory committee and the conservation chair for uh Florida Native Plant Society pla chapter all of which are NOS but we do take an active interest in the environment and what particularly interests me and why I wish to be on this committee is the intersection between science as aabon says we use sound science to make our recommendations so that intersection between science and policy and ensuring that Belia county is a beautiful place to live for the next 60 years thank you uh shall shall we also introduce staff for our new I'm Ginger D I'm the Environmental Management director in your primary liaison for the committee I'm Samantha West this is stability and resiliance manager fora County uh Morgan Swank with County Legal I'm clay Urban growth and Resource Management Chris Ry kind leg Scott Ashley zon EnV and last but not least we do have someone without whom we can't operate these meetings do share your name yeah thank you Truman this this is an ongoing challenge remembering to hit the speaker button so that the record is clear so that Chelsea can do as great a job on the minutes as she did last time so thank you very much and again before we get um down to our agenda business we do have a member of the public who would like to speak to us um we have uh Jesse Wales from the Indian River Lagoon um and live right so I'm GNA stand in the middle of the room and try to that would be so much easier [Laughter] thank thank you so much for I didn't even listen um thank you guys so much for for having me my name is Jesse Wales I'm with the Indian River Lagoon National Estuary program I just wanted to let you know about some funding that is coming available um currently we have five or six uh requests for proposals out um for water quality habitat restoration and Science and Innovation all of those due are due uh mid December and we'll have about $825,000 available um anyone is able to apply for those funds the one that I wanted to chat about today is our new bill funding um so we received $1.18 million um from the bipartisan infrastructure law to do projects in priority communities um so those are underserved communities that are identified by the EPA um you are eligible to apply if you are a nonprofit uh you have to be located near or within the designated uh priority community and then we are specifically looking for projects that improve infrastructure Community engagement um or organizational capacity so I know that that may not resonate with the group here today but if you know of anybody that runs a nonprofit or has a nonprofit and would be interested in applying for these funds um we are uh looking for letters of intent due by November 15th on that so I have some flyers out that I will leave for you guys and that's all I have ask question yes are municipalities eligible to apply for those not um municipalities are eligible to apply for our regular rfps are not eligible to apply for the bill funding um it's recommended that nonprofits of any size from small nonprofits to large nonprofits partner with municipalities schools governments etc for these funds yeah thank you very much Jesse that's exciting news so our first order of business today is to select a chair and vice chair for our next term and with that I open the chair the or for nomination Noma L keep this oh I already have a second we've had great continuity and Leadership and it's my nomination thank you Bob any other nomination okay so I I thought about it um it's been an an honor and even more than that a really great privilege to be chair so far uh so any discussion thank you so all those in favor of keeping me doing this tango dance any thank you John all right I will continue conducting the meeting thank you and um and uh open the floor to um nominations for our vice chair our current Vice chair is Jessica G speak I nominate Jessica I'll second any additional nominations for vice chair any discussion we are grateful to both I am very grateful to my vice chair let me tell you all those in favor of Jessica as Vice chair hi hi hi Bliss I thank you any opposed is our vice chair and um the next order of business is setting our meeting agenda for the next couple of years or for the foreseeable future um currently as you realize it's the first Wednesday except when there are huge holiday conflicts the first Wednesday of the month that is the day and then the time has been um early on we voted ourselves a three-hour meeting time monthly and we found that we have needed that much time in our meetings um so we meet from 1 until 400 p.m. on the first Wednesday currently so I don't know if you would prefer to vote first on day of the month and and then on hours or uh if you'd like to make suggestions sink I would like to make a motion that we keep our meeting the same day of the month and the same hours I will second that start thank you moved by Ser morisy seconded by Tom Burbank any discussion all those in favor of keeping our current schedule I thank you any opposed we do not have to change our calendar entries we will continue meeting first Wednesday of the month from 1: to 4: p.m. and unless otherwise advised in this room thank you our next order of business is our September 4th minutes has everyone had the opportunity everyone have you had the opportunity to review those minutes wouldn't Sly you're our Prime minute reviewer listen folks I read the minutes I did not see anything substantive and I am not going to correct grammar and spelling anyone else I am going to correct grammar and spelling actually not Grammar just spelling page two so much restraint did she did but I think we're all really attached to our names so it's just a small thing line six Alex zalinski not zinsky see but I wasn't yes they did but I wasn't required to exercise restraint so that's any any additional comments to the meeting to the minutes would someone like to move that we approv them okay thank you moved by Donna brosmer seconded by Jessica gal any discussion ma'am yes not here I abstain thank you you thank you our our neop fites are abstaining thank you um all those in favor of approving the minutes as written with the one correction noted uh I any opposed all righty the minutes are approved so now we can get down to the meet of our minute of our meeting today which is to continue our discussion of low impact development thank you very much staff uh Samantha Ginger you gonna kick it off um Samantha's gonna do the hard work I just wanted to say for our new members just sort of our process um if at any time you have a question because we're low Tech here we don't have like little lights or whatever if you want to speak it's good to put your card up and then that way the chair will know that you have something to say and then um put your card back down when you're recognized and um if you have something that's Urgent by all means break in otherwise um we'll we we'll go through a section and then ask for questions and discussions and do that the whole way but of course if there's something immediate that you just can't wait you know put your card up and and we'll deal with all of the issues as they come thank you that was really important the reminder about the card and I try to scan continually but if for some reason I miss you kind of make a noise or something the other thing that we discovered as a committee early on is we don't start looking at ordinance language we start with a substance of the issues before us they get explained to us sometimes we've had um expertise outside of just our assigned staff members come and speak to us and then we look at actual ordinance language so just wanted to to clarify that thank you okay so um up front if you were or were not able to get them there are comments from your fellow committee members there some from Sarah Lee um some from jacket and then some from Tyler um some of them are about the educational content some of them are about um the incentives that we have gone through or not incentives but um particular items we're going to go through today and then items we went through last time so have them if you have any questions I would bring them up during that I would just mention that um it's wonderful that we got those comments and writing but we didn't have the opportunity I don't think to review those prior to this meeting or am I mistaken we we did not them out prior to so um I don't since our goal is to conclude liid today I don't know if we need a moment to read through those or if we need the authors to call them out over the course of our discussion I think the second is the way to go other than Mr seret who's not here and so when he told us that he wasn't going to be here I'd let him know that we would bring up his comments at the meeting will you represent Mr seret absolutely not as well as he does clay and uh yesterday um there was a conversation I had with a former member Miss Shyer who uh wanted some clarification that was not available from the previous meeting regarding the application of the incentives for the I2 zoning I I would like to be able to represent what she has said to me and a potential solution for this committee to think about very good thank you very much so at the appropriate moment clay becomes Suzanne Shyer and ginger becomes jacket correct okay so just going over what we have completed from the last time um we went through the future land use elements and in chapter 72 article one article two and article three so um our ordinance is complete and now we are into the LED guidance manual just going to briefly go through these slides not talk about every single one of them um besides the ones that had changes like this one um the committee voted to change the density allowances to eight dwelling units per acre for urban low and 16 dwelling units per acre for urban medium intensity as incentives the other was the change to 10% bonus for floor area ratio within those land use classifications listed and excuse me but that was what Miss Shyer brought up several times yes what she was concerned about was uh the I2 zoning has been the subject of a workshop carried out by the County Council on July 23rd where they identified that there may be pending changes um after uh our discussion she clarified that perhaps this application of these um bonuses for that zoning District should be held in Aban until the council completes their review of the I2 zoning and then at that point it would be applicable and this again was specifically for the floor increase the 10% increase in floor yes the floor area ratio increase so I'll just add that if you want to to do something different someone on the prevailing side of that vote that last meeting would have to request to bring it back up for discussion and you would have to revote so and EV we'll check the minutes but I'm pretty sure everyone voted yes on that except for Miss sh oh okay there were two V votes one was unanimous and a second was two so bill so we're going to postpone that until the County Council that's her request and that way if it's increased or decrease by County Council then it's still 10% on whatever the result is it would still apply again uh there was two separate issues there's the the the Dilemma we're facing with the uses that are allowed in the I2 and and if you remember my conversation at the meeting I explained that from a staff perspective Li is a development standard and so whether you agree with the type of use or not you still would want that use to take advantage of those particular standards because they they are a better standard so therefore there's two separate issues her concern was the fact that without really knowing what's happening within the I2 Zone in is that appropriate so therefore you know as we discussed it I I think that her main goal was let the County Council work through what they're doing with the potential changes to the I2 zoning and then once that's resolved then this could be reinstated by amending the ordinance Jessica then Tyler from my perspective I think the issue is in it was state with fuel Farm concern and whether they should get an intensity B if they use LED I think it's very hard to carve out just based on single users or uses the rules that we want to apply but this comp plan policy is just saying incentive bonus they may be permitted and I assume when we get to the guidance and the guidelines it will say how you get to that 10% so maybe we say industrial projects to achieve the 10% have to meet More Design guidelines or something like that so they're not just skating by with the minimum and they have liid but I don't think we should cut out antire zoning district from the regulations H so I've listened to the meeting then listened to the comments from last month and one of the things that I heard in this conversation where most of the concerns brought up were things that have relatively small Office Buildings and not a lot of warehouse space and so the Flor area ratio you know I guess I might have a question for staff of with a fuel tank or a storage bin at you know for grael or sand at a concrete plant or whatever else Supply looking at the potential uses for I2 there's everything from Plastics manufacturing to recycling facilities for transfer or uh processing of recycling materials solid waste a lot of other things where I could see Warehouse buildings for a bigger floor area could be a benefit but I don't most of those don't fall in the category that Suzanne was bringing up as concern and I don't want to speak for her by any means but it's just a question of am I interpreting that right one and am I getting the conversation from the meeting right in terms of where the concerns going to correct as you're going there if you have a structure that's where your floor ratio incentive would come into not necessarily open storage or those types of things so from that perspective what offices warehouses those types of things not necessarily storage would be eligible for it um and you know uh again getting into the type of uses the concerns that your the county staff has identified that first statement in the I2 any industrial use of land or structure is the primary culprit in why we're having to struggle through this discussion and once that's resolved I believe we'll have better clarity on the types of uses and there will be uses I believe that where that 10% incentive would be worthwhile to pursue did that answer your question no that makes perfect sense I Now understand where the conflict is coming from on it I uh and she kept saying it was an open zoning thing but I think ultimately those uses regardless I fall under the opinion of some others from the meeting that that's not really going to be something that's going to be an liid friendly development anyway and so those developers probably aren't going that they're not going to be looking for floor area ratio in sentive I state it that way so going back to moving this along as Ginger pointed out whomever made the motion in the last meeting would have to bring it back and we have pre- discussion involved at this point with which is to bring it back um to hold it in a bance until the uses under the I2 zoning are decided by the council or Miss gal brought up a second path that could be considered which would be to increase the requirements from an industrial use or liid in order to earn the incentives they would have to do more in other words it wouldn't just be two storm water and four it would increase those but it all starts with Chris Ryan he's going to render a legal opinion right here and right now Ju Just A Brief elaboration it doesn't have to be whoever made the motion has to be anyone on the prevailing side I'm sorry thank you so that's the first step would anyone from the prevailing side like to revisit this and that's everybody except Dr Anderson Wendy hey we can move on thank you very much thank you clay and Miss Shyer so the next one was that we added um clarifying language that um Jessica suggested um I'm sorry did you go back to where you were just jumping and bu did you this one what was the last slide we were on please I was looking away uh okay is the definitions article one changes thank you then we're on article two zoning there no changes for this one uh I did have a question in that perhaps I'm bringing it up in the wrong spot um when we look at the chapter 72 definitions and Inter it's the Article 2 zoning that was left blank in what was distributed in the reading but in our minutes from the last meeting we seem to have said that my papers I showed it to you before seemed to state that we would allow incentives of height increases including along the coast Mr hoblock brought up some concerns about rural areas increasing the density and the heights as an incentive and somehow it escaped me that we would offer those incentives in un unincorporated Valia County including along the coast and um I'm questioning that we're either we're I don't know if we're actively offering it as an incentive but we're not prohibiting it and taller buildings along the coast whether exactly on the beach front or immediately across across the street on AA which is Zone multif family and is also Zone commercial in that area um higher height limits than the current ones will cast Shadows on the beach which is not wonderful for beachgoers and it also brings increased lighting concerns for nesting season sea turtle nesting season so I I'm I'm seeking clarification on that Jessica I do agree and I know that the if you're thinking of the strip all like B5 down that Corridor their height is already 45 ft or something it's pretty intense um we could suggest a distance limitation to say except within 100t of A1 I I think a while back one of the comments I had made on this real briefly we might want to consider a minimum slope ratio from the property line or something along those lines so that you reduce that shadowing effect it's something states with a lot of taller buildings structures usually have is you know your height is restricted to within some Pur the property LS um that sounds suspicious suspiciously like an airport Glide path a more verticalized verion but I mean the idea would be that you don't have a 10 story building 10 ft from a property line Shades out an entire property adjacent to it any guidance from staff um if you were to so there's two ways you can do it we have the incentive section within the guidance manual that has restrictions on where those Heights are allowed um that's further on in the presentation but I'll go ahead and read it right now we have it as the maximum height permitted within section 72241 so the zoning coordinates um may be increased by 30 ft within multif family commercial and Industrial zoning classifications so you can do that modification that you're suggesting within the manual itself that could be you know modified as time goes on um or you can go ahead and insert it into this zoning um reference here and have the Restriction seing that it cannot be in the coastal areas or however um and keep in mind this is an un corporated County only so a lot of that area of course is in the municipalities um but we do have some coastal areas so it's worth the discussion um it our preference in general is to keep the technical requirements in the manual not in the actual code and so this was is the code so um if it's your preference we can bring this back you know we'd have to do the same thing the prevailing party would bring it back we'd make a change um but otherwise we can make the changes in the manual if if that's sufficient I guess I was a little premature in bringing this up at this point sorry about that um we can discuss it in the manual portion um and and and discuss how much weight the manual carries versus how much weight a zoning ordinance would carry in this particular thank you sorry about that soon if that's all right we'll just hold it off and we get into that oh clay irvan I just the great thing about having Scott Ashley behind me right there is that I've got the uh historical knowledge of all things zoning in Belia County and so he was bringing up that the majority of our beachfront Condominiums and some of our residential aspects along there are Zone B8 and right now the maximum Building height there is 115 feet so you already have a building that's already somewhat tall and I think what you're going to be seeing is the implementation of the LI standards addresses something that Tyler was bringing up in that rather than having series of wide buildings which obscure the view of the ocean you have an incentive to try and make them taller and skinnier so that that way you do have view view Avenues between the buildings if possible just again want to make sure you all understood what rules and regulations we currently have in place how that would be applied in some of the philosophies behind why you see that may be appropriate if you can rather than than allowing for a wider building push for a taller building just to have sry I have a microphone um there already zoning that if you look parking underneath the building you get an additional height and I think it's part of the L too we're looking at if you do things where you limit the impact of the land by putting parking in the building that's one of the incentives we were talking about allowing for additional height the zoning already s for most of our conds would be a if you go up a certain height you have to increase your side or rear setbacks so as you go up you are pushing it in toward the center of the L okay we're getting to what was going to be my next question because we're offering height and the way it reads right now is height and setback modifications so there is a potential conf evil mind could think oh we're going to build every bit of available space and up as far as we can m well so okay huh it's little slid no it's okay um this is for removing the barrier for the non- mountable 6in curb no changes no changes for this one for L I actually had a question I [Music] um sorry to interrupt you again Sam um so this was a barrier we all agreed on needed to be removed but the way that it's worded and I'm referring to the document that was circulated for chapter 7 to does this help us to get where we want in other words you you you're um you're not required to have that curb but curb is what we know you know that's that's what we're used to building to so does does this help us to get to less curb and gutter construction and more things like vegetated soils or that really comes in under the incentives so this is a change to the zoning ordinance itself it's self so that any developer can choose to use this on their site they don't have to be doing an L development okay thank you next is um no changes to Landscaping within an interior landscape area no changes to this one do we have again on the document the the zoning document on Section e are there areas to set of curiosity of the county where we do offer reclaim water for irrigation I know the cities do thank you um and I misspoke for this one this is for the alternative um irrigation methods we did add language in the code AS Jessica has suggested before um so we're we're providing flexibility with design um by right including dual La um Sor water landscape areas to promote water conservation moving into the Land Development regul regulations there were no changes here for concurrency or varrier mids I'm I'm sorry again back to comp plan sorry samanth comp plan yeah back just just a quick um question where sorry I keep messing up my papers I had it in front of me so we were saying that developments it it was SG 2.1.5 developments meeting the criteria below May arrange Lots in a compact fashion etc etc and the site must be serviced by Central utilities at the time of application for development approval if the developer chooses to Cluster the lots and receive density bonuses I think that was in the section covered in this the previous section of the PowerPoint so many times at least where I live I have to admit I focus on Worman Beach and unincorporated Belia County AB budding Worman Beach and in that particular case there really isn't utility extension or much of it by the county I don't think it mostly is annexations by City of oron beach as the provider of utilities to any new development do we have many areas in the county that that we actually um if a developer wants to Cluster the lots and we're saying there has to be an existing hookup to utilities are there many areas in unincorporated fuchia County that have that possibility was just a point of curiosity luch count utilities is one of the smaller utility providers we have limited areas primarily in southwest and over here on the excuse me Southeast and over on over here on the West side near Deltona um so do we have lands that are available for it yes okay thank you and development regulations um we added the new division 19 there were no changes to the language for the new division 19 and when then we got into the deliverables for the liid manual um went through the standards which we can go back to after we go through each of the incentives um there was no comment but we did not have a motion yet on the flexible lot sizes um I'm Gonna Be Jack here for a minute so um but do we have a slide on this uh so Jack's comment was that on one of the slides we talked about um prohibiting bill and the FMA designated flood Hazard areas for the development of lots in an liid development um with the implication then that you could fill in the flood plane for things other than lots and so his question was is that what we mean does it mean that you could have fill in the flood plane if it wasn't explicitly for the development of lots he wanted see if maybe you guys wanted to have a discussion about that but that that is the case you know there could be an instance where you can't avoid filling the flood plane for something like the roads um but that if you want to do an liid development you can't fill flood plane to create new residential lots so I don't know if you all want to discuss that but that was his question is that in fact what we meant and it is what we mean and so to phras this is the intent of development of lots that that would cover more than just the initial development and it would cover say you can't fill in any areas to put an a pool lader on or anything like that as well I think just within the boundary of because I understand the road aspect I just want to make sure that like accessory structured down the road yes that that you're not filling in the flood plane for the benefit of the residential lock so um is that any flood plane at all what if there's a tiny bit of flood plane and you need to have one lot on it then are they kicked out of all density bonuses or yeah the way the way that we drafted it right now is that you cannot fill the flood plane for the benefit of creation of lots if you have to cross the flood plane or whatever because that's your access that's different I have to kind of chime in on that because uh as we are getting now several years past Ian and Nicole we are still getting feedback from FEMA in regard to our flood plane management standards um there is an expectation from FEMA for us to uh I would say become much more critical in the implementation of that and so I don't believe that if we put any any kind of incentives aside associated with filling in the flood plane it would pass mustard so we do need to be very very careful about that when you say putting incentives aside you mean offering those incentives yeah thank you so hope everyone's okay with with that then we'll move back to where we were Wendy so if we had Phil for a road that needed to cross a blood plane I mean I know that probably the standard for road building this is outside of my area of expertise you know includes some CTS to maintain that natural hydrologic flow but is there an kind of Li version of a culvert that you know would be kind of a wher sale or something that would go into the road that would allow I mean culs get blocked you're seeing it all over the county culverts are you know filling up and and backing up and so is there I'm just wondering in the L you know world if we have things that we would want to specify we could address it through the compensatory storage because if you fill within a flood plane we require some form of compensatory storage well that's my question my question is is there a different way to design a CT a method for Designing C I suspect Tom may have I believe that's called a bridge he just made his Mark uh Tyler so in dealing with Phil the flood playe a clay brought up compensatory storage are we having a no fill at all rule a no net fill and no construction rule it says no fill right so if you want to do an liid development what it says is you shall not fill in the flood plane not like no net fill don't fill the flood plane to create a new residential lot if you're not doing an liid development you know whatever you know rules apply but in this case to get the incentives no Lots in the flood plane put a shed on pier something like that and the flood plane is fine pool that gets flooded during 100 years flooded them it's fine we can build in the flood plane still don't know the answer to that that's the the rules allow you to put a pool well well this is dealing with don't create a new lot that's in the flood plane right so if you don't have a lot there you're not building a pool on it you're not building a house on it no don't create Lots so none of boot can be in the flood plane yeah even if it's not buildable area well you would look at our our typical standards we have for flood plane development that's already in the landan development code which we don't create lots that are fully within the H flood plane typically people would be filling those lots um and getting um the letter of map change right afterwards so you wouldn't be doing that here now if you had like a little portion of that lot that is within the flood plane and it's not going to be affected by the development of a lot for a house then that would be fine but you wouldn't be putting any you would be put fill in it right yeah I'm also thinking like L front dock things of that nature people there be a portion of it yeah but you're not going be putting fill within okay and I have a question stupid question probably um just to make sure we're not disincentivizing Li the ability to build on flood plane is not more available to non-id development than to liid development okay so how are we it's a it's a I mean if I if I want to put a as many homes on a parcel of land as I possibly can and there's some flood plane on that land and if I don't do liid I can build more houses on it than if I do liid are we not shooting ourselves in the feet foot they don't get the density thank you I told you it was a stupid question what say that is you do have a lot more storm water area that gets taken up when you start doing shallower storm water which is what a lot of green storm water infrastructure is about so one of the complaints that I hear consistently from the public listening to Council meetings attending over I don't know 20 years of time span is that when we fill six feet in order to build our houses and then drain them to our roads and then drain our roads to a storm water Pond and stack water 3 ft vertically in the storm water Pond and then we put the bottom of the pond at gr basically so we can make the Geotech work that the result is that we're building these islands that cut off Surface flows that existed previously and that we causing problems but the nature of spreading out our storm water more is that it becomes very challenging to achieve density I was this morning playing on my computer with like plot sizes and four units per acre if you have a 50ft wide Road ride way that's not part of the Lots is only 9,75 ft Lots those are pretty small when we get to 12 lot Lots per acre that's 3,000 ft Lots or 3,25 ft Lots so that's going to be if you go 125t depth which is kind of a typical subdivision lot depth plus or minus um a 12 lot per acre is at 24 ft I haven't accounted for storm water so I know when I traditionally did storm water designs we'd be 15 to 20% with the conventional system West valua it's give or take about the same East delua there's some differences C through and Basin now that we're dealing with nutrient removal other things we're seeing anywhere all the way up to about 50% of our developed area has to be matched in storm water area that's a pretty substantial deviation for us to Triple the size of our storm waterer facilities to achieve the densities that we're talking about and accommodate that you have like a th square foot lot or you're talking apartments or these are not B simple lot residential construction items and I don't know if everybody understand understands that but when we're talking about Lucha County the areas that we can develop that have land that are left that aren't going to be incorporated that aren't inside of utility service boundary agreement already for one of the municipalities where to get the utilities to support this density in a neet fir for it you have to Annex to the city I don't know how many apartment developments there are so what are we incentivizing that's kind of my question with this and maybe I don't know what I don't know but I I just I've never achieved more than four units per acre in a single family even with town houses or other things we aren't achieving 12 units per acre unless it's something that has rear entry or a single car garage and isn't a square footage that um supports more than two bedrooms good question bill so then am I hearing that we really can't do this and that so did the code audit tool did it like are we going to be allowed to do 24 foot wide Lots if we do low impact development I mean that's that's that's what I heard yeah you'd have 2020 and then like 28 on ends and do a 4unit townhouse building and then you have you know 8 ft of sidey guard 8 ft of sidey guard you're not building and if you have to run a pipe between buildings or something it's through those side yards you know you'd have room for a 15ot train achievement or you're in the buildings and the public hates that kind of density so will we be able to do that because what they're complaining about is this so then the option is that you don't do an liit development I guess because I mean so this particular requirement is to prohibit additional d it in the flood plane right which is presumably a good thing and something that FEMA is you know wrapping us on the knuckles about right now right so um the you know how how much space you need to meet the new you know storm water criteria and that kind of thing is you know I guess the question for this group is do we want to be able to um facilitate additional development at the expense of the flood plane or do we want to say if you're an l velopment you're not putting new stuff in the flood plane that that's really the policy question and the the dimensional things will work themselves out or or or they won't but the you know from a policy perspective do we want to promote and incentivize development that puts new people in the flood plane at risk thank you Ginger so in order of appearance clay Irvin Wendy Anderson Bill lights I'm having a flashback to 2014 when we were discussing the conservation subdivision there was a great deal of concern as to whether or not we should have minimum lot sizes minimum dimensional requirements Etc if you read the conservation subdivision the answer is no because in order for these types of developments to occur it is going to require in out of the box thinking this is not going to be your conventional 75 by 100 foot Builders quarter acre lot type of subdivision because we are again trying to encourage more open space concentration of development and trying to keep the natural grade and natural vegetation as much as possible so we will make sure from a staff perspective as we are saying to you here as this proceeds through the planning Land Development regulation commission into the County Council Please be aware that when you start trying to implement these things you're are not going to necessarily wind up with acre half acre quarter acre l but this is going to be that development that is very interesting if you look at the density is probably going to be around two units per acre but where it's developed is pretty intense and the reason why is you and I'm speaking from the conservation sub you've got 60% of the total land in open space so again I I think it's it Tyler brings up a very good point and I think Bill brings up a very good point is that the generalized public when they come in and they see the concept plan that's on the screen as the planner is talking about how this is the greatest thing since sliced bread and canned beer they lose their mind because they're on 30 foot lots and so that's where we as the staff have to make sure we're doing our best to educate as to why a 30 foot lot provides a greater environmental lift and an overall benefit to the area thank you very much clay Wendy um I was just going to respond to the you know the question of are we just shooting ourselves in the foot I mean if you look at the Matrix we've got a whole portfolio of incentives the density bonus is just one of many the density bonus isn't going to work in every place and yet the developers can still take advantage of several of the other incentives even if the density bonus doesn't work in that particular in that particular case did you say something yes this is not related to the flood plane so this is a different conversation right I agree that we should not allow flood plane impacts for the lots and move on from there and on that I will also not make my comment because I I I agree with that um I would just mention that there are articles all over the press this week after Hurricane hen really emphasizing how just about everyone needs to buy flood insurance and the cost of that flood insurance is going to be tied to what community allows happen in their development so just a kind of echo what play said earlier a different angle thank you like to discuss our incentives as I stated we went through the flexible lot sizes last time there were no changes but it wasn't a motion yet um and we can go through all of the incentives um and then go back and move yes flexible setx is this SL we did change f building setbacks um as is shown on the screen um as Mr hobock had requested and yall voted on to make sure that that outside perimeter boundary um does not have the flexibility they have to uh comply with the um setbacks that are already designated within zoning ordinance for that specific zoning classification but interior Lots um would have that flexibility moving on to something new okay so on the lot development standards we have the increased density specific Provisions listed in here so did we have any questions or comments on this as you reviewed it prior to the meeting yes we have the 8 and 16 volumes per acre as was already um changed previously so I mimicked the manual to be as you had moved for the comprehensive plan change Jessica and Jessica this is Lally but on the last one can we just clarify that conservation subdivisions cannot gain additional density beyond the bonuses allowed as a conservation subdivision yes think okay any other changes for that one very none we move on to the next okay um FL ratio increase or% within those L classifications we already sted within the comprehensive plan are we okay with those still reer that at the beginning wonderful okay and so that goes for all the Land Development incentives so do we want to go ahead and have a motion on the remaining Land Development incentives is it still uh including the height height is in zoning so we'll be moving on to the zoning incentives next so this is the floor ratio increased density and then the flexible lot sizes I can't make motions okay uh I'd like to make a motion that we um recommend the incentives as outlined in Chapter 2 lot development incentives we have a second so motion made by S Mory seconded by Don discussion so how is this motion different from the approvals that we already made last time which we already went through all of the Motions for approving incentives we did not approve the um we as a new as the committee did not approve the incentives listed within the manual so these are the regulations um in here before you did the comprehensive plan and the zoning ordinance Land Development code but to say right yes it it mimics but this is like the implementing okay regulations next yeah so right now we're looking at the BMP manual and so the incentives and then like what you get for I understand and of course they need to be consistent I just it just felt a little r done it um and we can if nobody had other comments about the incentives and because we've already looked at the zoning code the Land Development code and the comp plan we could uh prove the whole slay of them if that's where everybody's comfortable we have a motion and the second on the floor which was only about the density increases um and Jinder is offering us another route to be to say okay all the incentives fre but we have to deal I believe with the legal yeah and and the mo just to clarify the motion was to approve all of the umot devel lot development discussion so with to follow up on my question it's since what we're doing is mostly redundant with what we've already done if it's not redundant is now an opportunity to perhaps revisit the industrial category and maybe put some specifications within the manual in the Implement implementation manual that that indicates that there might be certain certain times when we don't want to offer the floor you know the floor increase floor area increased um incentive yes okay I don't know what that language needs to read like but but I just wanted to take the opportunity to maybe flush that out here sorry may I cut um so Jinger said now is the time to take a look at that I know from when we worked on the space overlay industrial uses for that that particular exercise in place not that answer but in that particular exercise there was a standard list maybe speak to this the standard list of industriales that we actually foed through because there were a few that that the citizen group was not comfortable with and we did that exercise with Clay um I think in 2020 2021 somewhere around there so I don't know if this is the case where there's a rather extensive list of indust stre that have to be gone through and well yeah yeah you could do that but because the I2 zoning basically says in any other industrial use we would have to like think up the universe of what those might be not a lift there it you know there is you know this this and this and anything else yes so that would be tricky the thing that is driving this of course is the f farm situation in unincorporated L County right really in or Beach but we don't know what we don't know so I'm not not anti what you're saying Wendy I'm just trying to figure out how we even grapple with it um Bill and then Jessica so um and I guess instead of complicating it maybe we can just finish this one and bring that up at a later time no yeah um I'd like to add something too just um keep in mind this's a lot of energy on five Parcels that are zoned I2 in the county and they're all right there on whole road so I think that you know it's not like it's a huge countywide issue so thank you for that Clarity Wendy so can we just simply put in an an exception to I2 at this point just yeah I mean I think that when we first talked about liid and incentivizing it we talked as a group at that point about creating different levels and so and I know there are different pockets and we'll get to the manual but if this said subject to the conditions set forth in the manual then the manual can say you get a 5% increase if you do two out of here and four out of here or whatever it is and then you can go to 10 if you do three more or whatever it is and that gives you the protection of the standard industrial saying we're bolting our storm water so we can have 80% ofus and that counting is L but again there could be good I2 uses because they taken all of the i1 uses that should use l i just in response F to your question I think the problem is there's not any of the LI incent that would apply to the uses that would maybe present an adverse interaction with some of the residential neighborhoods adjacent to it it the the things that would be adverse use cases should be captured through the noise and air evaluations because they' be things of managing material with it us um the the reality is the you're dealing with floor area ratio or a dwelling you to density bonus or something that like it doesn't affect industrial open space it doesn't affect the you know the warehouse getting a little bit bigger I don't think it's necessarily an incompatible use here so I kind of think it's okay in then Bluey too I see there being beneficial cases for on these Parcels I mean our main offices are like a half blocked from there so and we have personal vested interests that's the owners of the business as well okay and I still I just need someone to repeat it again since the motion is to accept all of the lot development incentives I just still run it by me one more time how along the coastline we're not going to end up with summon building is why as the lot allows and and taller than what is currently allowed right now the lot development incentives do not include increased maximum height um the only one there is flexible lot size um and the flexible building setbacks and the building setbacks um you had voted on last time to state that if it's an exterior boundary setback they have to abide by that so if you have one lot on the beach for a condominium then they would have to abide by the setbacks that are already within s and the height to did I miss speak when I said Now's the Time because the two the only two that we're talking about right now are lot sizes and building setbacks and we're in density Fuller area ratio and all that is is in zoning okay so what are we voting on for this one flexible lot sizes voting on flexible lot sizes building set back you did last time but if you wanted to open that up again dead City and FL are that again all right so correct the motion we have Sly for me if I'm wrong is to approve all of these as we have just reviewed them and that motion has been seconded and we have some discussion any further discussion all right all those in favor any anything that online I'm sorry online I heard John Bliss did you also I I'm having a hard time hearing everybody so if you could um restate that Melissa okay the motion was to accept uh if you're looking if you're following along that PowerPoint all of the chapter 2 lot development incentives and that's density setbacks which we already approved and what was the third thing some [Music] info or area the floor area the floor area incentive so to approve those three things in in one F flop um and we are taking the vote yay or nay on approving all of those okay yay and also I've sent an email um I cannot see the presentation okay what we can do about that is have you downloaded it or do you have it on you be clicking the link that Chelsea sent out there's a link to the PowerPoint okay I can do that page Samantha can say the page number we're on it um from what I'm aware and other people in the audience can see the presentation online so it may be your settings list okay thank you okay we had the yay votes do we have any nay votes okay motion carries thank you okay so next we're going to get into the zoning incentives and there are seven of those just R name them off real quick so you understand is the increased maximum height the best management practice permitted within landscape buers and setbacks best management practice permitted within landscape islands and rends best management practice or BMP credit is Landscaping BMP credit is common open space off street parking flexibility and increased lot coverage so I know there's discussion that we want to have on height this is the first of the zoning incentives and it shows that we would increase it to 30 feet within multif family commercial and Industrial zoning classifications 30 ft being about an additional story reducer and the proposal on the increased height is that that would be a an incentive for are we even do we want to do that which BMP we don't want to do that never mind ignore me so this says that we offer make incentives everywhere in unincorporated Lui County within those zoning classific not within residential zoning so the p i I was looking up the code for BP or the beach side condos and what the height restriction had was you had say a standard sidey set back of 15 ft and the rear it Ocean Front was 25 if it wasn't Ocean Front was 20 if I'm remembering right and then you increased it by a for each 3 ft of Building height above I think it was 35 and so in this case that could be an increased setback of 10 ft that might be a good idea for us to include if we're allowing tallic structures just like what's included on the8 I'm not sure we all follow you Tyler so if we are saying that we're going to increase maximum Building height for 30 ft by 30 ft the existing codes that we have that allow Toler buildings require an increase in building setb when you build that building taller than 35 so if you build higher you're got to build farther back yeah and it's a 1:3 ratio 3et vertical for one foot horizont that's an the existing code I think it's just a good example to use so that's why you said 3 [Music] what so that's possible I mean it's not going to cut out it's as you get taller you get narrower and that solves the problem of view sheds and somewhat I'm not a building designer architect but this not my area of expertise but the taller that you make a building the longer it Shadow passs it's like a tree I think we all understand that the wider it is the harder it is to see through the ground level so it kind of depends on what our objective is in different regions and then B8 the goal might need to try to narrow things up and get them taller if we're talking multi family and we want there to be a feeling more open space a six-story or eight story condo or apartment building might be more conducive to that than a field of twostory apartment buildings that are more shut together so the comment I wish to make on this goes beyond those viws unfortunately but I have to make it I live in unincorporated Belushi County just off the coast and so yes I can see impact of tolerable things in Shadow and I get the mathematical formula that Tyler is talking about in an effort to kind of as you said or sort of said preserve you shed but that's not the only thing that concerns me I'm looking at a beach that's disappearing and I'm looking at Florida Department of Transportation right now caring out the vegetation along the Doom so that they can install a seaw wall essentially it's a sea Camp wall but it's the same things as a seaw wall and to do that they've already had to move A1A ever so slightly onto easements that conveni dwellers would consider their front yards and it's just it just concerns me increasing there's not a lot left it's buildable up in that area and I'm sorry I don't know the southern end as well um but it it it just seems to me that there's a lot at stake in putting more people on the edge of the ocean in B County so I did hear a suggestion earlier about either exempting certain areas from this um incentive or coming up with some sort of distance from something so if there's a solution that that you all are thinking let's throw that out there do I have to g a l to make motion just given that last comment from you about the ocean front specifically I see two options one we can say will not be permitted within a distance of A1A which is beat side 100 fet will catch each side yeah I say or we could just say east of A1A but I think earlier there was a concern on close to the other side so you could say east of A1A or within 50 ft on the west side of a and that may give you the core I com if the maker did we have we had an original motion no so then if we can if that's the only change we're worried about with the other items that Sam mentioned I would make a motion that we accept the zoning incentives with the modification that Building height is not available east of A1A or within 50 ft on the west side of A1 I would second that unless we have any other changes coming down the pike with the next incentive so okay discussion and I I mean I guess if I may just interject um do we need to finish going through the zoning incentives before we make the motion formally depends on if everybody read them or not yeah two options we can go through and talk about each one or if everybody read them and doesn't have comments on them we can get to the end and the only reason I say this not not to be trying to push in any direction but we're really hoping to get liid done this meeting because next meeting Samantha's not here um so no pressure but we we are trying to get as much done today as possible so the motion is to include as appears in the PowerPoint all of the zoning incentives with a modification only to the zoning incentive dealing with height and the clarification there is within 50 feet of State Road A1A or east of A1A both and I would I would say East a Barrier Island because East does not leave it open to be where I do have a suggestion just on the language and and if you guys give us the concept we'll come up with the words but in the southern portion of the county A1A is not the eastern most North South Road it's different so we have some similar language in our SE tur of lighting ordinance so we could potentially just mimic the language of the SE tural lighing ordinance or um we could do the distances that you said but we would modify it a little bit for that southern part where A1A is not the right road to reference okay so again the vote is approving all of the zoning incentives with the exception of the height in which case it will be Rewritten to mimic the seal rules update my motion to that if we'll update our second yeah okay the updated motion has been updated and second all those in favor I'm I'm a no because of this um change for the southeast you know the lower Southeast section because we don't know how that would read okay I can look it up real quick it it's just that A1A isn't the furthest East West Road it's just um when you get down Turtle Mound it's uh technically A1A stops at dun lot once you get south of dun lot it's now South Atlantic which is a county maintained road so so what we're saying is that the easternmost road so again I I will try and get on to the sea turtle lighting ordinance to reflect what that so the record is clear okay so then we're we're saying the southeast portion would be that of um South Atlantic yeah exactly what the c turtle lighting boundary is now okay on the on the Barrier Island okay thank you for the clarification I Can Vote Yes any opposed the motion carries and the zoning incentives are and we typically take a break at 2:30 for 10 minutes um or almost at 2:30 shall we do that really quickly since we're in stop in point let's try to make it back in five instead of 10 Melissa yes John I'm going to sign off at this time thank you so much for being with us and wherever you're going I hope it's a pleasant home oh okay coming home so yeah all right well welcome back you get here been looking everywhere for you Pa came are res and off yes yes assist all have you e for for for you I for theels in the enter in the ENT be similar to the wood ocean for the TV Center e w Bob Simmons it's it's a one time deal you know for those who just signed up um Samantha would you like to pick up where we left off the environmental incentives all right so ming sit down yeah he'll do it okay this is our one um environmental incentive that we have as you can see on the screen is reduction and tree replacement requirements um are there any questions or discussion on this one or can we get them mo it's there's going to be discussion when do so why would we do that so some of this is a little bit funny because we're talking about the incentives in the absence of talking about the BM P that you would have to do to get the incentive right and and they're definitely tied together but so the theory is that if you do the things that would get you this incentive such as preserving the flood plane or retaining additional tree canopy or clustering your subdivision that you're protecting more trees on the site and we would be um supportive of allowing you to Pro to replace a smaller percentage so instead of the 15% that's required now it would be 10% % but in exchange for that you're already preserving the trees that are on the site so we're incentivizing keeping trees rather than taking them out and providing replacement yeah to add to that as we condense the development area we just have less Ser replant and it can be quite difficult to bring a tree out into the middle of the woods and dig a hole without disturbing other trees the plant it and then get irrigation to it um it's something we're running into in a lot of our natural preservation buffers that it's very hard to augment them meet some of the minimum landscape buffer standards and preserve everything and me your standards and um all that fun stuff any more questions and this is the so one we need to take a vote on yes it's the only environmental on Center I'll make a motion to uh approve second motion made by light seconded by Anderson to approve chapter 2 environmental incentive that's written all those in favor and I will not the John PA who's not with us anymore he had he had to leave any um any [Music] opposed I'm a yes that like a comy problem Bliss did you want to say up there we put you in with the yay yes I'm a yay okay there apparently are no names that was a moan but so the motion cares thank you okay so then our last three incentives are there's two related to fees one's building permit fees then there's reduced Land devel Land Development fees and then we have an other category that we can just go go ahead and group together and that's a variance Andor waiver not required um they're pretty straightforward that last one's letting people do these Inc UPS by right um or these bnps by right and then we have reduction fees so there's no questions on any of those okay sorry to have a question on this um so let's say that this became a really popular thing and developers all over the place are like I'm going with the LA um what would be the economic impact to the County's budget if we had reduction of fees would this um I mean how much of the of the revenue how much of the budget is derived from revenue from fees uh so we haven't done oh we haven't done a full fee study in a number of years uh we we have one budgeted for this coming year the last time we did it was in 2007 uh I know for enval all um the actual fees we collect are somewhere less than 50% of the cost to provide the service uh I believe that to be true in Our Land Development and uh building permit fees do in fact pay pay enough for themselves um that's required by law um so in terms of Land Development fees we already don't recoup what it costs to provide the service and that's part of the service that taxpayers get as as Citizens um so it's a little bit unknown you know if everybody decided to do this it it could potentially be an issue the the great thing about the way we've structured this is that these are all in the manual and not in the code so let's say that happened and everybody's coming in and they're getting their 10% fee reduction in the budget's tanking which I I would love that to be a problem um we can rethink it right we can look at it because it's in the manual so um it's a little bit of a trial yes and I was going to say on that on the building permit side there is already a quite Hefty reduction if you do like third party reviewers under the Florida statute so I may just suggest that we exclude don't let them overlap that and the drafted any further questions I'm I'm assuming we might want to treat the incentives as one batch too as we did other yes we could do the the two fees and then the other category which is the waiver yeah so any any more questions on the first page that Sam shared the reduced building permit fees if not we have reduced Land Development be was what this means um so this is just a reduction in the specific Land Development application fees there's three different subdivision um application processes and we're only calling out one of the site plan process because the other one is a very low fee um and is very conceptual so that would for their initial application fee they would have that reduction of 10% any questions on this incentive next thing we would miss yes so no that would be it so it sounded like maybe there's a motion coming that approves these with the modification that um reduced building permit fees don't apply if they're also using a third party review and getting a fee reduction for that make a motion as stated have a second second motion made by Jin MC seconded by Sarah Le morisy all those in [Music] favor any opposed motion carries Bliss I'm assuming you're a yes unless I hear you be a n correct thank you okay did that motion include the this section the other variants under that's I don't think we need a motion for the very last one because it's just restating the fact that if you do these things it's allowed by right and You' already put that in the code so I think we're good on that okay um you provided the Matrix which is a just a quick overview of what incentives go with what BMP and then there is the BMP table that has everything um more detailed within that and I'm going to go move past those real quick and we're going to get into our best management practices or bmps so you have two groups here um the one is the site design and then the next is the storm water storage treatment and conveyance bmbs in here we're going to discuss the requirs that a developer has to or an engineer has to put on the plan um to gain and incentives we're not talking about which incentives they're gaining yet just this is what you have to do on your plan um now if everyone had time and did review them we can have motions for groups or if we're going one by one how are we wanting to tackle this today this maintaining natural topography would that go hand and with maintaining the natural vegetation in the same area yeah for sure wherever you're maintaining the topography we're hoping that you're maintaining the vegetation that exists there but there could be cases if it's a you know prior pasture or whatever you could maintain the topography and then maybe there isn't really any natural vegetation but we're hoping and you can see in the chart that we um identify things that go together really well and the bmps that go together and in this case you're right preserving the natural topography goes really well with retaining tree canopy and Native vegetation to Samantha's question about whether we want to go through these one by one um Pro them on mass I don't know if we should just do a quick read through of them perhaps and then and then V maybe not be lab them because we did have the opportunity to look at them through okay would would you like me to go through all of them at one time or you want me to go one by one um I think it would make sense to go through them logical grouping yeah so may maybe what we do is we we talk about each one that is in the site design and then discuss any of those and vote in Mass at the end of all the site design with whatever changes you have identified okay for lot of site design to go through let's start it um first one is maintain natural topography um there are two options here an option A and option b that the U developer can choose from option A is to maintain a natural topography for 30% of the SES area must be contiguous and preserved with a conservation easement dedicated to Bia County seing all development rights um then it show states that it must be depicted that square footage and acreage um on the the plan set option b is that the notes on the final platter final site plan must State stem wall construction is required for all primary structures if a subdivision this must also be stated within the dccr the Declaration of covenants conditions and restrictions um that fill grading is limited to the footprint of the building and the Upstream side of the structure to Route water around as necessary this must be depicted on the engineered drawings any questions on that those two choices kind of followed by no I guess my question is do we have plan BBY thinks that there's going to be room for us to build storm water systems below existing grade and above any flood plane or Wetland things where we're going to be developing the idea I mean stem wall construction is great if we're trying to avoid fill in a flood plane but we still have to manage to storm water in a little off so I guess I'm curious what the um what the design concept is for it I've tried implement this with limited uh success yeah option b just because it's I think the intent is that where you are able to you're going to a Sall construction large and part over a a fill on grade is going to be beneficial for the topography as it is so it's really going to be matter of you make a good point about it's you have to have the right land that you can apply it to but that's up to the developer to decide if they have that property and if they can utilize it that's the beauty of having so many options for them John says fild breaking is limited to the footprint of for buildings um the Phil would be the footprint of the building the ring would go to the fil right but that's not clear enough it looks like you know you can just build a little put that building on top I it's I yeah I see what you're saying I think the tent was we can reward it but the grading was the Upstream side of the structure for the routing of the water I think that's how it was intended and the fill is in the footprint and then you know grading for that so but yeah it can be rewarded followed by Tom and Tyler do you have your is that yeah um this goes back to Tyler's point I to interrupt their convers this goes back to your point and the statement here and you brought this up John it says spill and gradings apps I mean you know you're you're typically in an area if we're doing one of these where there's a flood plane this is very flat terrain this is not heavly terrain and you're going to have to fill a lot a little bit to make it an AB orc drainage whatever is required you know under the circumstances so to absolutely say you can't fill a lot I think makes meeting any kind of storm water requirements nearly impossible I think I should restate that if you can only on the Upstream side it's very hard to create a collection s on the downstream side which is pretty necessary for the other elements of our code in some way of collection so you you have limited natural topology opportunities for this and Rural well I think sorry I think the question is is it stem wall on all the Lots is that the intent or is it then while there will be opportunity to where the topography lens itself that you could put a storm water pond at the rear of a group of lots and those could be some also maybe does they're do you need a threshold like a certain percentage or because if all of them are stem wall they may not be able to apply that but if they're if the intent is to meet that where they can I think that's the question me um we Tom and then back to Bob thank you um this isn't a question this is an observation I've worked with a lot of Land Development codes all over the place and and I'm a big believer in illustrations because they tell the picture are these things that we're talking about now will it be accompanying illustrations like this this issue right now is a perfect case in point gentleman talk about backs slopes to get to the stem wall and things like that um have any of these been brought forward or considered just again I'm I'm the last guy in the class I'm back hold everybody up yeah so we would certainly be willing to put examples if there were if somebody had we haven't found drawings that would be appropriate we but um certainly we could use that if anybody has you know an example drawing that we could use um just really quickly remember that this is optional right so um this is one way to get an incentive it's not the only way and so um as we're talking about that just keep in mind this isn't us saying you all developers from now on must do this this is if you want to do an ID development this is one of the things you could do to get to your required number of liid elements I think it would be helpful just for a second for the newer members of our committee to let them know what the what the oid process was in terms of our work um County got a grant to come up to create a low impact development manual and as part of that Grant they also audited the existing Land Development codes to find anything that already was an element of Li existing in the ordinance is anything that was an impediment to implementing liid we saw an example of that earlier today when we were talking about the curves that that's coming out of the out of the language this the the County Council made a decision a year ago last October to adopt Li as optional on the part of developers and Builders we were at the descriptions of S250 where you couldn't create any honorous kinds of um changes to to codes at Hurricane and then hurricane um Nicole in Nicole so at any rate Li is completely optional and well we have decided to do is to take an approach that incentivizes it it's really important as we go into these fine points and I'm certainly someone who forgets this often that if that nobody is required to do all of these everybody is required to do a few of them in order to gain incentives that that changes the stakes a littleit to Bob yeah I realize that this is all optional um but you want it to be attainable so uh stormy mentioned something I thought was a good idea maybe there should be a threshold in here sometime for the amount of fill that you can use to you know modify the drainage because in you know these cases of really flat ring 100 foot deep lock to meet minimum drainage I only need to put a foot of f so you know maybe something like that to to allow the engineer to have the flexibility to design a site and get the water where we needed to go rather than coming flat out and saying you can't have any fill gr sure yeah if um there are is language that is proposed this language for that second paragraph is came directly from the county engineer during one of our meetings um so if if you have additional language to change it to we're all ears my additional language would just be to put a threshold there that you know no more than 12 in I mean in a typical 100 foot lot that gets me to 1% which is my minimum fall requirement by every regulation so are you asking us to come back yes I guess well I'm trying to I'm trying to understand so you're saying on all if this is a subdivision you would say all of the Lots you could fill up to 12 inches and get an incentive for preserving the natural topography well we're only talking about the lot where the house is built we're not talking about the entire subdivision you've already preserved you know whatever 30% this wouldn't be on a lot by lot basis it would be at the subdivision level come L development so what I have a challenge with in viability and I think this is what Bob is trying to get words together of is we're requiring stem wall construction and we can only grade side of the house that water's sloping towards support of getting it around the house we're going to need to grade on the downside sou down slope side of the house somewhere in order to deal with collection or say the lot naturally slopes towards where we're going to build our road we're going to be grading our road things of that nature it's not that we're necessarily trying to clearcut masade relevel the site or rais 5 ft things of that nature it's the minor changes to be able to harmonize this is a pretty restrictive set of language that says None and we're trying to find a way to give us a little bit of allowance and flexibility to be able to do those types of things that that's all so how would you say that how would you write that plus or minus 12 in for purposes of harmonization and storm water conveyance over the whole lot though for an entire subdivision then my argument back to that is that you now aren't maintaining the natural topography if you've got 50 Lots or whatever it is and each lot has 12 inches of fill on it top soiling to build a house anyway you don't want any Organics under your foundations or under your driveways or we have to put Utilities in I mean to some extent when we're talking of six it depends on the size of the lot if we're talking one acre lot that's different than if we're talking to 6,000 foot or 8,000 square foot lot in which case grading 6,000 ft I don't think is I I think that is conducive to what's required to build the house and to make the storm water work and to harmonize things even with a stem wall construction there's a level of grading has to happen in order to facilitate drainage even on Foundation I mean I hear your concern I just I don't know how to overcome the challenge and go and put in 12 of dirt over the whole the whole site you're going to kill any trees that are on there yeah yeah so that's that is where we we have conflict one one the purposes of this knowing that we'll always argue when site planes come in um if we were to revise this to say is limited to the footprint of the building and the size of the structure to Route water around as necessary do that give you the downstream item you're looking for so you're saying remove the word upstream and just say sides I think the challenge is effectively The Mention Of grading on the lot I mean um the we're going to be grading a road we're going to be grading where the houses are going to be built to some extent you stem W you don't have to necessarily grade on we're going to be grading for a drainage collection system of some kind we're going to be grading for storm water those are going to be the areas the grads require ired and I think you find a way to allow this that grading is limited to these purposes and that changes and finish floor things of that nature need to be achieved through stem wols instead of through filling of the Lots I mean and and that's where the a finite restriction is really difficult that I mean I haven't been prepared for this also so I'm playing a little bit of a the game in my head of trying praise onise the other alternative is we can eliminate option b and just stay with option A that you get the incentive if you maintain natural topography over 30% of the site and then the third option is you just we could leave it the way it is and see if anybody does it and if anybody doesn't then and whenever we do an update we just take it out then lots of options I have two subdivisions that I've kind of had C launch to design that I've tried to play with LA on and both of them might be a 30% rule of maintaining natural topography I think that that is an achievable goal I think I mean we could leave this in but I think if there's a way to loosen it where it's a little bit more achievable that that might give you guys a little bit more bangr Buck I I you I'm not against the concept of it I just think that it's a little it's hard to achieve the goal that you have and meet all of the other requirements we have on build grading is limited to the F of the building as needed to Route water to the storm water system that works I'm a walk short word walk that works right that's good that's kind we a percentage of the mar you know you're not you're not identifying anything exactly you do what you got to do to get it to the front of the yard to get the screen um I like those words but I think that without some sort of limitation on that then the do what you got to do would could end up being a significant amount of fill over the lot and then multiply that each lot by however many Lots there are and you could end up with a traditional subdivision which is itable but perhaps not something we want to incentivize so maybe maybe that language with some sort of limit but not more than or I don't know 12 Ines is more than enough I'm not so much thinking about how high it is but how big it is so so the issue you're having is a definition of perimeter right right yeah if it's 12 in over the whole lot that's not so does it have perim perimeter with necessarily solely to convey water or is that so I have no idea I'm not engineering do this I don't play one on TV just we have building coverage or lot coverage right that's like 35% but there's always say more if this will include driveways and the is there a percentage that staff is Whispering about perhaps that builds in enough room of this percentage of the lot can be filled I think is where we're going right the footprint of where the fill could be and if it's can't be more than 50% then that's big suggest of thought set and building or something along with this lines and have a requirement putting the at grade and that the grading be limited to roughly 15 ft what you want to do build up a little bit against your building drain your water 5 10 ft away from the building and then slope back to grade and have a small sale um if you have a 3 acre lot 15% is going to be extremely large to accomplish that around 5,000 ft I don't that room so so Tyler can I try to say what you said again and use the original language so limited to a 15t perimeter around the building needed as needed to direct storm water I think feel like there's something that's to be said but so stemo Construction Bill and Grading up to 15% around the perimeter of that structure to direct storm water wherever it needs to go conveyance I mean just to facilitate storm water conveyance um Le approved otherwise by the County engineer always be exceptions and they're very creative Engineers out there you were you were word smithing Dinger F gradings limited to foot front of the building and 15 ft around the building as necessary to facilitate storm water conveyance and any comments on I I I didn't cop Tom's comment about there saying that the County engineer has a final say so on that [Music] or yeah John J not John H John H um if you do the 15 feet and you have a house adjacent that's going to put 30 feet between the two buildings well I mean I typical setback or le as I'm is seven so if you have two buildings and you have 14 ft between you know and that's where the swells because you're not allowed to dump water on someone else's property right it just be op mandatory that's what we [Music] so I have that I think we're good we could make a motion on that one if you want or we can save it to I whatever you want maybe we do a motion on that one because we have talk a lot about I think so would someone like to made a motion the um we had option A which was not controversial at all option b we have reward Smith to indicate a 15t perimeter around the building to convey SP water as necessary so someone like to move regarding this Des yeah I I'll make a motion um second discussion I move second by second by discussion I I think that minimal fill should be in that conveyance sentence you know maybe you know forget the the you know a death just minimal fill you know enough to accomplish the conveyance and gradings going be part of the this weekly cut and that's where minimal cut in buil to accomplish this it's the goal right okay are we ready to vote then all those in favor any opposed motion carries next one preserving flood plane there is only one option for this one there it's not an A and it is 100% of the FEMA flood Hazard areas identified at the time of application are protected through a conservation ement dedicated to County severing all development rights when they Encompass 30% or more of the site this can include the tree preservation area required fin deal of this is allowing the treat preservation area to meet requirement that any questions on this let's thank you right next one is retaining tree canopy there is only one option for this uh retain an additional 5% of the square footage of any development for the preservation of existing trees beyond the minimum requirements of the Land Development code as a conser a conservation eement dedicated to BL County suffering all development rats is required any questions it's beyond so there's already 15% required so it's an additional five right now the East is over the Tre Pro oh yeah it would just be over we're only requiring that additional 5% question so just to clarify maybe this is what you just said I was thinking and not listening um can this be can you double dip on this with the um flood plane yes yeah okay was that yes or no yes yes any more questions comments he reing large raran or vegetative natural buffers we do have an option A and B for this one option A is to retain a 20% greater buffer than the minimum required by division 11 which is the Wetland ordinance adjacent to all Wetland surface waters on 100% of the site option b is retain a 20% greater natural landscape buffer than the minimum required by the zoning ordinance along all property boundaries any questions [Music] cluster subdivisions we have that they must follow the provisions that are already established within the zoning ordinance and the next one there is conservation subdivisions is that they must follow the provisions that are already established within the Land Development code any questions on that Sor we whichever one I don't like to allow Wetlands to count for L that would be the sub divisions of it's a long history do not allow Wetlands to count toward the open space set aside requirement yeah yeah so isn't that part of our separate discussion we were raised out of the workshop that we are working through if so that's great and just for everybody's clarification there's uh within the cluster subdivision you don't get to count Wetlands toward your minimum open space requirements and so therefore there was a concern that it's um overly restrictive and prevents many of these uh cluster divisions from going forward because once we back in the uh Wetlands it typically exceeds what the minimum open space is and so therefore it seems like it's an additional requirement in order to do the cluster subdivision that fair standing and so staff from the count is working with Bard on how to address that and other open space situations so this is like industrial to sure but much less you know was contentious there you go that's what I want if it's running a parallel path that's fine I just know if it wasn't if we could build it into this but I am fine so we this right next is common open space there are two options here option A is provide an additional 5% common open space beyond the minimum required this cannot include the minimum tree preservation area required by 7237 option b is where no minimum common open space is required provide a minimum 15% common open space and it also must exclude the tree preservation area Jessica has questions for both of these another discussion point that maybe we fix but if this is different than the PD I'm going to say it again especially for option A can we include that wallet cannot include the minimum treat preservation area it can be comprised of naturally vegetated areas I think it's opposite of that right so the if you're talking about the natural vegetation retention area requirement no you're just saying it could include just natural areas because right now under the PD regulations only certain percentage of the common open space can be natural and the other has to be active Recreation okay so I just want to clarify that this design is for nael yeah right now the reques open space about that 20% 10% for additional free protction and I that's one discussion the other discussion have is Under The Bu The incent to do follow us the tradeoff is lesser side set backs and small side with but then you turn around you give that ruction you save that put it in power over space but that balance not including the jurisdictional RAR which already have so the idea is you protecting land since you're getting lot Sid so I think Jessica I think we could say this can not include the minimum tree preservation area required however it could be natural area and I think that's perfect I just don't want the LI manual to say create more playgrounds because that's what count as common okay any other comments to this agage do we want to have a motion on that one since there is a change we could keep I I think we could go since it's an easy one move them on fordor protection two options option A is preserve natural land which provides connection to or is within the Florida Wildlife Corridor and continues through the development project to allow future connection and expansion of the corridor this area must be at least 30 ft wide and can count toward the required 15% tree preservation area area conservation us and dedicated bu County severing all development rights is required option b is creation of an internal vegetated multi-use trail of perious material that connects to a larger pedestrian or bicycle Network this area dedic the area dedicated to this use must include existing or planted native shade tree species and Native undor vegetation tree species chosen must have enough space from the trail to ensure survival as approved by the count Bo start is 30 ft Corridor stand is it it's standard used by um environmental permitting during devel thank you very much any questions on this weding so just clarification on the ter Florida wildor is is the Wildlife Corridor officially part of the Flor wild the conservation yeah theu conservation Corridor um is is an official subset of the Florida it's not it doesn't serve the same purpose um but they do overlap not EXA not exact so I just wonder if we want to be more inclusive here than just the FL a wildlife quarter to be so within the wildlife quarter or the B conservation yeah CU that's already a check thank you any additional questions comments roll na of landscape fertilizers and irrigation option A all planted vegetation within a commercial site is 100% Florida needed species including grasses smart irrigation controllers are required for the irrigation system educational signage describing the benefits of native plants and be FL and now fertilizer fbl are placed throughout public spaces option b the long one the subdivision common areas and Landscape buffers must have 100% Flor to Native vegetation including grasses smart irrigation controllers for the irrigation system and educational signage describing the benefits of native plants and the Florian now fertilizer principles placed throughout the common areas in addition 20% of the square footage of each residential lot must be planted with and maintain needed vegetation irrigation systems for the individual Lots must have Smart irrigation controllers the plat notes and the Declaration of covenants conditions and restrictions Reds must identify individual lot requirements a typical planting detail is required to be provided with the plary plat application just questions one Lord a native not friendly on the what I have heard and I want to know if you guys have heard is that when planting Florida native full landscape buffers with trees it is hard to find Florida native product that's available at the minimum size for tree placement is that known the right the availabili Jessica you said you two question Springs it okay then Ty then wait can I just say what Keith said for the record because I'm sure the record did not hear him so the answer was at the minimum replacement size of two Ines there is not you can find Florida NATO trees larger than that they're a little bit harder to find and so the next questions for Tyler and to confirm are there any Florida native tur grasses is there any s there are ground covers not s but there's ground cover so what is the florid Ground Covers a no you have fluit you have M sister delosa which is sunshine Rosa you have think there's a basket grass out here there's umora P column you say it yeah and it comes in a roll um just like a turf grass that you can use especially each s it's not technically I'm very pleased with [Music] River there's Wire Grass love grass oh Sun mostly grows on the west side I'm going to put on my Landscape Nursery hat since I had one for 10 years and the problem I have with the language here is that zeroscape is more appropriate than native than requiring native only because zeroscape is is the right plant in the right spot uh you if you put uh some native plants in soggy areas they're going to die if you put some native plants in dry areas they're going to die and so and native plants are very hard to find commercially grown uh they they are just not all that easily accessible so so I'm a little concerned about restricting this language to Native as opposed to zer okay may I respond to that of course so this is something we've been going around a lot Florida friendly branded by uus which focuses on Zer escaping it focuses on water preservation and actually disclosure working in the city of G Beach on their their CS right now on this this I mind this is not compulsory this is an incentive so it's not a requirement for everyone um zeros escaping a Zer landscape is one that is aing and we are flood and drought and flood and drought absolutely you should not plan anything anywhere it's not right plan right place that that principle of Florida friendly is is certain because you're just wasting your money to put the wrong plant in the in the wrong place so I I don't think that that zeroscape or just landscaping typ water sources goes far enough in the reality of Florida Today where we are threatening the biodiversity of our state the the very foundations of our biodiversity which are insects which tend to eat only the native plants native implants that are here prior to European colonization and it it is a problem even a potential problem for agriculture I don't really want to take over the whole meeting but I can talk much more about this so if this were a requirement a requirement I think we'd have to have a discussion about availability and and and things like that but this is optional and you can do it on the lot so you can do it in the common are and I I think it's important that low impact development while it deals a great deal with water and and storm water I think part of that impact is not negatively impacting ecosystems and the plants are certainly part of a system a foundational in fact to our food chain so that's that's my advocacy in favor of keeping the sensitive and I think um I don't I don't know keep this best raing as play with up yeah I am the The Zone code already requires 100% natives the tree removal code um requires the same species removed to be put back unless the county Forester approves additional species I will never prove non species to be planted for tree species so it is technically required already but I think we were talking Ground Covers yeah ground ground covers but in the Z in the Z code it is yeah Donna Wy I just wanted to clarify that um zeroscape is the right plant in the right place it's not specifically for for Aid um or for dry areas or anything like that so um so I wanted to clarify that and also uh I remember this going on and and I don't know to what extent this has ever been resolved but there's a big debate over how to define what's native um because it's very hard to figure out how a plant landed here um you know whether it was the product of a a bird dropping uh flying over us from somewhere else and or or something that floated up in a storm um and and ended up taking root so I would want to be careful about about the extent of the definitions too what um I don't think it's worth our time to to debate the definition of zerich but not here zerich does mean arid and so zeroscape originally was meant to disc to to convey a landscape planted for water conservation anyway but my point was I'd like for us to zero in on the distinction here between um common area plantings in a subdivision versus residential lots and so we're talking about 100% um Native plantings in the common areas on landscape buffers um but on the residential lots it specifies only 20% of the square footage of the lot so I'm I'm I'm uncertain if that also includes the square footage that's covered by the building and the driveway um you know and then or is this 20% of the planted area um can we spe it can we be more clear there um the way that it was intended that it's the overall square footage of their a lot 20% of that would be planted with the native vegetation okay so typically how how much of the lot is covered by the building and the driveway and what if you clustered and have the sex excuse me for so you're smaller than being creative and outside the boxes place it and so and so all of my questions if I can just kind of roll them out all at once like if if we're worried that we're going to not be able to have St Augustine sad which we really shouldn't but that might be prohibitive for some I mean like maybe we don't have to have frog fruit and sunshine Mimosa as everybody's front yard um if we have some leeway here on what we can plant on the residential lots I mean I would go for 100% native on the residential lots but that probably won't fly um unless you're sunbridge or something so um I I I just think might be worth unpacking that for a little bit right now Jessica I was just going to say when I read the commentary versus the Lots even sunbridge has some sections where the residential lots have saw they just try to limit it um and I think they're backup materials and it's been a while um for the kind of transition plan to the native planting also put out 20% but I I don't know if it was 20% of the planted or overall so that is a so to answer your question on impervious coverage we typically see um our our denser subdivisions upwards of 50% all the way towards 75% is kind of the upper limit that you see zoning anywhere depends on the P need municipality you're with and the counting um I looking through the code there isn't an impious scen our base zoning there's a building coverage restriction but you can literally PA everything on your your buildable area of site recover it with an infer Serv % yeah so I think that's that's why I think the 20 because 80% lot to be impervious so the 20% technically would be your landscaping area open space um so that would be the native regation so I'm going to clarify that because that kind of F into my question comment so this is recognizing that basically 20% of any l is what can Beed once you have taken advantage of what you what you can do in terms of impervious servicing although we hope that if you're doing L ID you're not going impervious so we're saying 20% of 20% landed in made PL no we're saying 20% of the total if you're lot whatever let your say 20% of it thatal 100% Naes because it's 20% lot you did which is atypical but that's what they use as for the drainage calculations up to a theoretical maximum of 80% okay my only comment then on that is that both oton and Florida Native Plant Society recommend at least 70% for natives for biodiversity so we're well below what what you know any native is good moving in the right direction we're well below what's recognized as supporters bi and and again we're talking also about we're being clustering development we're we're having interesting shapes and sizes of lots because we're employing liid and we're we're going to leave lots of open space um lots of Natural Area we may be talking of very small areas potentially for each right% okay thank you so so are we changes I don't I don't know yes we need it SS like not sounds like we're good right we moving on Roll okay habitat management there is only one option here it is to preserve 10 acres or more of contiguous undeveloped area with a conservation eement dedicated to Bushi County sing all development rights this can include the tree preservation area required by the Land Development code and annual reports must be suben the land development office and we recognize this is not going to be appropriate for all developments right because they're not all developments are going to be able to have 10 acres of this contiguous undeveloped area but we felt like that was the minimum amount that you could actually do a habitat management plan for right so this isn't something that maybe even most people are going to be able to take advantage of and then Wendy so part my IGN what would go in that report my ignorance but what would go in the annual report uh it would be uh something like what we do on our conservation land um plans right so you identify what the desired future condition is of that habitat and you identify what the management actions are and then every year you say what you've done toward that management plan it doesn't have to be like big and involved but there's there's a basically an identification of what you're going for and then what do you do do you do you provide fire on the site do you remove Exotics um you know and then the annual report talks about what actions you've done I mean and I'm asking this because when I propose these things to clients they ask me this question and then I feel really stupid because I can't usually come up with good answers for why it's a good idea for them to sign on to yeah in perpetuity yeah okay that might be something for us to discuss when then Bill Bill had something informative having just having just moved out of a neighborhood that has 450 acres of managed habitat um it's I mean I think this is a great I think this is a great thing I'm I'm very I'm very cautious about the expectations that we can have of HOAs and you know and the ability to train the people who are actually managing those properties to know how to to do this of course they Outsource it to environmental consulting firms like you know bills but um but yeah so it's know I mean I'm I'm all about having habitat managed areas it's great I'm just 450 acres being big you know what the annual cost was for you guys neighborhood volunte Bill Jessica Michelle seems like a good idea and the reporting is all right it keep people focused on it but maybe not annual and um maybe banial or every three years and that way people won't be quite so borous Jessica and Michelle then Sarah yeah my only thing is that from a compliance standpoint I am also fine with it but at the time that they commit to this you are giving an incentive and so then if they don't do it we just need to identify what that failure results in is it if the incentive gets taken away and then the whole development becomes non-conforming that's a lot and so I just want to match the what happens if they don't profs yeah so at that point it would be that they're not complying with their whatever it was site plan approval or or um subdivision approval and it would go through our code comp iance process for non-compliance with their approved permit it's a pain look can I add on to that because uh Dr Anderson you hit it right on the head HOAs um can be difficult organizations and again when you give an incentive for a specific action and the action's not followed through how do you bring it into compliance will you make the action happen well then do you to do special assessment and then does it become a responsibility of the county because now sudden you may have a HOA completely disband so it it's not a perfect world in that situation but that's ultimately the um worst case scenario in regards to Code 4 so just one step further we Michelle I guess what I was going to say was that there is no fee or you know associated with not heing so we recommend every 3 years seems reasonable for management plan not annually and then having some kind of have documents I'm gonna argue otherwise um with volunteer organizations something that is card annually has a better chance of actually happening over time because there's a consistency and if there is a budget implication it gets transferred year after year versus if we move towards something that is not annual chances are uh as as people turn over there is a much higher likelihood of something going by the wayside so if this is a route that an applicant chooses you know they they see what the requirements again going back to the very beginning of all this voluntary voluntary voluntary and you're picking and choosing which ones of these things you want to implement um so I'm I just wanted to say I'm going to argue otherwise and keep it as annual yeah and I agree on the annual front and I agree that it's fine to go against associations and there are risks but they're not as great to me as if this isn't met and this is something they used to get smaller lot sizes and so the incentive isn't taken away I don't want the result to be all of those lots are legally non-conforming and if a hurricane comes through they can't rebuild I just want to protect that so I think that is certainly not our intent if you feel like that needs to be stated clearly somewhere I'm not sure where that is in the manual like maybe we put a sentence somewhere in the manual that is like failure to comply results in Code Enforcement action but does not render those lws okay so not right here but like sort of a blanket statement okay that's a really good point um oh Tyler sorry it's clarifying question so how much active management is there and how much observation is there on these types of things I mean and in my mind what I'm trying to scale is say they said you need to report every year for 10 years to show that you've accomplished like if there's habitat restoration or something else that that's been achieved but after that isn't this just kind of almost code enforcement against you know that somebody go and clear it or otherwise and could we maybe reduce the burden so that there's a higher up take R and kind of put a Sunset Point on this or I I just don't know what I know again so I would say every year we'll keep it in front of people's minds because people do forget now you may not actually have to do any management for one year because burning if you're lucky three to five 5 to 10 depending on what the habitat's like so you might just say one year you're spraying Exotics and next year looks good you know you just do a report but um sun setting would probably let people just forget so it's not just it's not just let return aren't managed right and there is actually so I'm feeling to understand the difference between conservation and and the habitat management um from exposures and we will need to be aware that sometimes the management will be mulching down the underst story and that's going to be hard for people to understand but you need to manage it because just letting it go natural Florida never was let go forever there was going to be a fire there's going to be some disturbance that beats it back so when that's what I was going to say that you know if you're managing four gopher tortoises or for handhel crane nesting sites or you know indigo snakes I mean for a particular Wildlife species or group of species you know Scrub Jays if there's any left um yeah I mean that requires yeah you're you're mulching down I mean most neighborhoods aren't going to want to have prescribed Burns right next to them I mean it would be ideal if we could figure out how to do that but that doesn't typically happen and um and yeah back to the I'm back to agreeing that we need to do it every year because there's always something to be done every year keeps it front of mind and in the budget for for these folks I think the disconnect happens that the developer is taking home the incentive the HOA and the residents do not get to directly benefit from that they just have the burden of of maintenance on it so but that's what they bought into may I myself um as Jinger said at the beginning there' be probably very few development that we be able to take advantage of this because of everything that that everyone has has said about it and I I like it a lot recognizing that maybe no one would pick it up but now I'm Devil's Advocate because our code develop our code people do not have the technical knowledge to know if habitat I guess that's why we have to plan that there's got to be some kind of verification and that also has a a verification that there is a habitat management plan that makes sense it's about managing habitat and not what you brought up rightfully about conservation is and that someone walks it down no I'm playing a little bit of Devil's Advocate here because I I have a tap management plan has to be reviewed by someone County who has the ability to do that we do what that staff code enforcement people aren't going to know about that not even people know about that but we do have people who can review that doesn't have to get inspected now and then that it's actually being conducted yeah and that would typically happen as part of the Ann annual report or whatever report like that would come into Environmental Management it would go on our to-do list of things to do and when somebody is in that area to do inspections they'll you know take a look at it you know claim was main too well Keith was whispering my ear as well that that's currently one of our requirements for our conservation subs and well we got two that are pending we've had a couple in the works but um again it's one of those things that report will be coming in the great thing is now with a lot of the technology we can start doing a lot of Investigation without having to put boots on the ground unless it's necessary and so yes you're correct our code enforcement staff are not skilled in the management plan evaluation but Keith is his staff will definitely do that and so we'll be able to follow through with it it is going to be a um as you said and as Jessica referenced it will be a code enforcement nightmare if we don't have a Cooperative group thank you very much any more comments or questions to habitat management under site design okay is that our last site design uh I I just want to make sure that uh we're not we didn't vote to change it to some other than annual okay we realized you no okay so now we have alternative surface material there is only one option here a minimum 50% of the off street parking spaces excluding parking spaces and 100% of the sidewalks must be an alternative surface material which could be perable pavers grass bavers previous concrete of for asphalt the pervious surface type must be identified on the Civil Clans and I believe that Sarah Lee has a commented um my comment was relative to Ada um we excluded Ada parking spaces from the alternative surface which I thought was a good thing but we insisted on 100% of the sidewalks and I just think the path The Pedestrian path from from those 88 spaces to wherever an entry is needs to needs to be the so thank you my words 88 compliant thank you yeah so I I think that's a great point I I we can put in those words it may you you may be able to you can get ADA Compliant and be pervious but I think yeah put that in there so that it's clear and if in fact the way that they need to do that is by using an appropriate surface and so be it John andler um just a question on the what's the definition of civil plans civil plans are Al what are submitted with the final site plan application if it's a commercial site um or multif family and then it would be the plary plot um engineer plans as well well you just said the dirty word Engineers engineer plans um because because well I mean we we Architects can do any by the way uh but Landscape Architects are the ones that do this the best right they use the word beauty and and Architects are allowed to do site plans uh so if you say civil and and you you have engineering I mean I think it should just say site plan design thank you pange just going to add there's within Lucha County at least one municipality that doesn't allow papers on Ada paths and the reason is because of if you're in a wheelchair or a power chair you were basically on run strips and if you have a spinal injury that's put you in that wheelchair power chair or additional to the injury that's puts you there that can be extremely painful um basically most of the alternative surfaces that we have have an issue either with ground pressure but just survivability with ground pressure that's induced by hard rubber Wheels by high heels by other normal things that happen on our Ada paths as as a contact type or because of the paper gaps in order to make them have a permeable area and so I I just think requiring it on sidewalks in general is getting us into kind of a risk area of obtain once again um we were already talking about maybe an alternative I just want time to add the papers on Ada paths are really fr the John did you you saw that your name up did you oh sorry that's that's that's something which get that so we we've talked about adding the change that the walkways or the path from the Ada parking to the building would have to be ADA Compliant you think that's the um enough to cover what you're what you're questioning because I think I mean from our perspective and we want to be clear in our language but I'm saying I'm thinking okay a site plan comes in and it's designed with a traditional sidewalk from that ADA spot up to the front door we would say okay right um but do we need to specifically say that or just just saying that the walkway um should be ADA Compliant sufficient here I mean you usually also have an accessible route to the sidewalk that is along the facility Frontage so basically any of your identified accessible routes on the site plan are going to need to meet the firm non-yielding split resistant surface requirements that are in Ada and so you know yeah I think to be that make sure I got it so the goal from the L&D standpoint was to minimize impervious faes we come up against the need to accommodate people with disabilities certainly if their parking space is ADA Compliant so does their route to wherever it is that they would wish to go does that then and this is what I think you were clarifying any other sidewalks or areas could those be perious or we're saying just everything has I mean what I was getting at is no you have to identify accessible routes on your site for somebody that arrives by car or as a pedestrian bus or you know other Transportation mode um that they use to accommodate their site so obviously if the only way in is by car then you start looking at different accommodations but you have to have an accessible route on all of your basically providing you assess otherwise it's considered discrimination automa so are you saying no um pervious um substrate is ADA Compliant I'm not saying that it's not I'm just saying we have really limited options and the ADA compliance and compatibility with the intended use are a challenge of papers they're technically compliant however they're are agencies that have had too many complaints from their use because they were specifying papers and so they've moved away from that and I think just looking at it from what's a comod view Spirit of the rule of ab is to make these facilities more accessible um it's I love papers I mean my buback is papers that it's got you know the exfiltration drainage system underneath it that's great but they're P to maintain they shipped they they create challenges in this environment all of your other permeable surfaces have the same type of challenge with asphalt and concrete it's a durability Challenge and a fing challenge um when you go to main it the pressure washer attemps to blow apart so is the language that we have proposed is there a way to change that to accommodate it or are you saying are you proposing to eliminate the 100% of the sidewalks altogether I mean I think saying 100% of the sidewalks it's definitely problematic I would say the sidewalks that are not part of an identified accessible gra any other yeah I have I have a question um we're at the end of the meeting we have some space some things to go I have a proposal is that we could stay another half an hour if people can stay and finish we everything um or you know we can reconvene in in November if that if we have to reconvene in November we're putting off moving to pdrc and Council if it won't yeah so but I don't know if everybody can do that so why don't we um there there people have their cards up but why don't we first just see who would if we have a quum that we stay exra half hour all those who are unable to stay okay so um so then what I would suggest is that we should probably vote for um all of the things up until where we are including the some minor changes that we've made and then we reconvene um and finish the next meeting Jessica my understanding is that while we want this manual to accompany those items they don't actually have to be acted on by those bodies just the ordinance and the comp plan so could we say these are the drafts and that inra is still reviewing the manual itself but we've approved the comp plan and the ordinance to move forward um that's pretty brilliant Jessie I would recommend because that is going to be the issue I I think let's go ahead I agree that this can proceed onto the pdrc onto the county Council because again it's just getting through the manual we can have a manual as an attachment without it having to go out with the official agenda packet but we would meet again and hopefully have it all flushed out because the whole agenda deadline stuff right we we probably because pdrc is mid November yeah we would meet in November so brilliant so we'd have the draft uh manual up to this time that's an attachment for the ldrc correct and then what we could speak to is there's any changes from the November meeting of the inre yeah [Music] um so I was going to make the motion to go ahead and approve everything that we have discussed thus far and then also just sort of separate from the motion just note that only have two categories left and they're very short so all right fine I'll second the motion but I have a specific question what the the um and and if it was said or stated I'm I'm sorry I missed it the guidance manual that we're spending our time on and we talk about that it can be changed you know more what is the process for the guidance manual once NRA's not around well first of all we don't know life benra based on the direction we had with drafting you you've got at least about another two to three years being present and so first and foremost that second of all um again we don't know what we don't know with the uh inadequacies of the manual so it's going to be basically a year time frame twoyear time frame as we go through this and we see applicants coming in trying to utilize the handbook and if they identify X Y and Z as being in then we would bring it back to enra bring it back and it would be adopted by resolution by the County Council okay so it's not going to the main it wasn't we're to Short Circuit it's just that when you start looking at a official or to the Land Development regulations it creates greater issues as far as timing and being able to respond got it I just I it was unclear to me what kind of process was vision and it can't just be staff well you'd have to let's talk about he Wendy you have your card major motion ah finally so first paper your on that concern I think that information second I'm still having trouble any H and that the any future owners with the management responsibility I don't know how they find out about when they're buying the house I mean yeah they bought into it but it really feels like it got you so right now I'm a no on all of this because it's all groups together and I think that we have too many situations where we put the burden on HOAs excuse me I have my mic off but I think we have too many situations where we put burdens on HOAs and then when things aren't successful we leave a small group of people holding the bag for what was meant to be a greater bid goal and in this case there's some clear incentives to using to creating a habitat management plan as a developer and leaving your future residents of that Community holding the bag and I I just don't know how we I'm having struggle with that one right now digesting just as an option um it's not necessarily alleviating but it's creating something like a Community Development District depending on the size of the the project itself which is actually a taxing a agency outside of a local government for a specific reason typically they're utilized for uh infrastructure I'm sure you probably dealt with them but you can put in these types of things as part of their responsibilities it just gives it a more formalized way of handling it yeah I mean it's almost like I don't want it to go into people's legal description but how do you get their attention that this is one of the things up to before they buy the house I mean it's when when people complain is at Council and they have a legitimate complaint it's that they didn't know what they were getting into and I see us setting that situation no this is still on the phone she's a realtor respons disclose and and when you when you go to close you are signing HOA documents that you are participating and you are given a copy of the Covenant and restrictions so that's required prior to closing doesn't necessarily mean people are aware we do that sometimes with the Water Management District where we have a Conservation Area you have to have a management plan it's a like a two paragraphs one management plan and then you put it in the codes and yeah the question and restrictions well it can also be in the CCR docs yeah all so I mean how would that be an incorporated element of the incentiv like if a developer chooses this incentive how we make it a requirement that it's actually long well I can tell you as you know especially with homeowners associations that are responsible for specifically like storm water ponds we have to see the covenants and restrictions that homeowners documents prior to recording of the final plaid and those have to be recorded So that that way it covers over the properties and I just think if you took a poll of most people that live in a submited they would know what the responsibilities of the HOA are and they're they funding and that's where I'm hung up on this is I don't like giving people an opportunity to hang somebody else which is really feel like we're doing here yeah to Tyler's Point um you know I've been doing subd for many years and yes it's quired yes we provide copies of the dccs we go through all that and I can't tell you how many times people come back and go well nobody ever told me XYZ even though they signed in several places that they received the docs that they understand the docs so you know to to Tyler's Point yeah the how do you do that how do you Market that so it's really in front of somebody's face and it doesn't end up being a gotcha and that's I you know I've always understood that ignorance of a law then excuse me from following it and I and I also on the board of my HOA I'm not defending them I'm just Mak forcades know CCR and I know experience with that too with having to ring State a voluntary HOA in my neighborhood to River Front and ocean front property so yeah most people don't pay attention but and and that's a whole but this is all voluntary we got to this point have we voted yet so let's call it we need to get all those in favor of accepting the site design we've been discussing all the different elements of site design all those in favor all those opposed no see yall in November second yeah on Sunday there's a community expo at the Ocean Center called celebrate maluia it's very cool from 2 to 5:30 follow with fre concert wow all so neighbor e