##VIDEO ID:M9yq4zIqPkg## e for guys you he could be asleep already again 8 for e for for for for for for show basically didn't always I call this meeting to order this is an informal work session of the wal planning board and um sorry for the delay folks um so you can get right into it uh after I roll call please here here here here here here here Madam chair before you begin I have to recuse myself thank you y so at the meeting a couple of weeks back we talked about coming together to discuss um after reading and bringing up some questions that we might have uh Paul is nice enough to be here with us so we can have him answer more questions we thank you for your time Paul um so we could yes just so that everybody's aware of the protocol this is a work session work sessions although the public is absolutely invited to attend the public is absolutely prohibited from speaking period end of story there are no comments from the audience no questions from the audience if that is not satisfactory I apologize but that is the protocol and it will be followed thank thank you um but please feel free to come back on December 4th because that's when everything will um continue to come to fruition so um is it suggested that we go one at a time or we discuss as it comes up who would like to begin with any comments um or question questions the Planner yeah prop John take it away well I guess I didn't realize until this evening that there's already a planner I thought we were making decisions about the future not something that uh there's already a planner with plans that seems to be driving the bus I thought we were driving the bus and that troubles me um I still go back to the question that I had the last time this plan this Redevelopment discusses uh block 107 Lots 1357 to 11 I would prefer to see lots 9 10 11 13 and 17 be the ones addressed because that is the corner of Franklin Turnpike and Prospect Street that's the most visible it's the fewest Residential Properties which will have the fewest which will have the least residential impact um it's the most prominent place and I question why why do it in the back here let's go to the front good point and I'm wondering is is this to appease the planners or is this to why are we doing it this way this just doesn't seem right to me I think when we originally heard about it if I may um it was the whole block yeah and then when it came back um we were missing Right Aid and um the store on the corner of Franklin Turnpike and we're GNA do this approach I would much rather see the commercial enties go through pain resense PA and I'll just confirm once again for the record the Redevelopment area does include the entire block all those lots as I mentioned the Redevelopment plan to be prepared for a whole area for one lot five Lots was the discretion of Mayor counsel to move forward with this initial section first nothing be said that you can't make a recommendation to say you prefer to be done other way the question just get back to the initial questions you're well aware is the master plan consistency but there's also the language that says and any other recommendations that the board deems appropriate so it's again more of a technical matter than one of the law issue of law that you're dealing with okay well I I would say in my opinion lot 13 which that corner lot number 17 11 and then the empty lots on that corner n and 10 instead of and and leave one through eight for a later phase that's the least visible from the center of town now we're talking about the center in town and the idea is to make it look pretty and and and still still near the train station EXA still part of that and and all of the benefits that we're looking to reap that's where you're going to get the bank for your buck not on this back street my opinion thank you for sharing I ask you a question is this the only drawing that you re were comments made at the last meeting that you receiv we have AOC I don't think Paul had anything to do with that actually yeah just to be clear for the record I this is the first time I've seen this was this evening hus cross one the other I have seen this rendering and concept plan previously the the one that shows the Redevelopment area or portion there my pack it at two sides um the the packet or the pictures uh of Hocus are from Craig Mark um I don't have this oh they only printed the one it is it is on the back page thank you the reason for the h rendering is just to show what that concept would look like it's very similar to uh the style of the building and also the height right of the building so I think theion was C shared that with us that's the reason for that that's the reason why we got it unless my counting is wrong and it often is I admit I see three stories in hokus not four open air I think that's off of on the side yeah you could see on A6 so I guess it's entirely um invisible from ail Avenue you look from the Front Street on Joe would you like to uh the back sheet a maximum density of 33 un per acre so I do the math there I had a number I don't have it in front of me but it's St in ACR 21 rental department one bom 12s ret and then 60 are left for the residents that's in addition to thank you sir propal back to the initial question about the number of units I have that because the de the actual the plan area is over one acre it's 1.27 Acres times 33 units per acre that's a maximum of just over 42 units this concept plan shows 42 total so there's 21 in the apartments if you will then the other wrapping around Harrison and Frederick are townhouse type units as well as in the back okay those are each each one there you can count them off they each individual unit with the garage so a little less intense style that it's picture a typical townhouse like you have I guess by the pipo you've seen elsewhere where you have the garages right or the one Frank I believe because the idea being it's mixed use between the two as well as close to the train so you have Transit so some people may not want to have a car in Need a car so that's a typical to reduce from the two units you might normally have 2.1 and the you know as someone mentioned 33% reduction roughly from your rsis stand nothing's being proposed there but obviously um there's you know the lot there'll be some curb cuts on the east side as you will so you between the driveways there should be enough room the opposite side there there's nothing planned right now whatever's there currently that would be disc of the mayor council make sense to have more parking management potentially for that there's demand have lot down the street look at seems corneri streim I'm going Bas on taking a piece of paper because the building says it's 20 wide you maybe four the next that's two Ral apartment seems about right now there aren't driveways out there today but there's a little bit more distance between them currently commercial yes I have well and I know you guys when you did the assessment put that correct um the other question is I know it says thisone is that going to be big enough for a truck fire truck to get through my understanding would be probably would not and you not normally want to bring one in but that's that's a slight plan issue this is just a conceptual design that I know desire I'm just I'm asking questions have been raised yeah 13 you could I'm not the expert this 13 probably you fit a truck under I believe at 13 but it's again a matter of whether you're going to be driving it you at the time of site plan review if you we get to there that's obviously a valid question to talk about and I know look at revelop that whole area Street rocket yes so if that goes through I there's nothing ons right now if that goes is that road be wide on Harrison toad both sides ores the road need to be I couldn't say sitting here I don't think the road is a standard width I don't think that would be an issue it would be a matter of I guess where you have driveways and turning movements that affect that because you're going to have now a lot of driveways out would say currently there's no curbing currently I believe in either side so there' be an opportunity to maybe upgrade that that would be something that potentially if there's Redevelopment to say we desire having slightly wider Street or curbing along the sides or whatever it is to make it more attractive and safer better control vehicles from going onto a sidewalk for example because the prop the requirement the PL to have sidewalks along there to make that safer for pedestrians the whole goal is to drive this area to make it easier to walk obviously there's conflict with having cars going in our driveways as well but um they are single you know single unit driveways not the know each one's for an individual Town un so it's low traffic that generates only able to that would be the same thing to bring up during Cy certainly I don't know experience that's something that commonly comes up and if the water you know fire department says water company says you need it do you have to do it they'll do it have to do it a lot of cover at Point compar Curr so they have thats system almost certainly I'm again not an engineer by training I go enough meetings like this that I know the the over an acre of I know this much it's always quoted there's certain thresholds like I think over an acre of disturbance and other things that kick in the requirements for either water quality water quantity you know the discharge all that sort of I know when we were involved with the one and again in this case my gut is looking if it's over an acre and you know acre and a quarter you're going to be to removing a lot moving soil around they're talking over more than an acre of disturbance that's almost certainly going to trigger the state standards which are very strict about you have to reduce what comes off the site compared to today I won't go to the details I don't know the details but I've heard enough these presentations to slow down the amount going in all fairness with the Bristol you know there was a tremendous I remember you know sitting meetings there was a tremendous backlash by all the residents on back streets because the property was going downwards you know what's going to happen with all that water coming in and I will tell you is that the design that they've created took care of all the water problems no one had ever complained that they've received any kind of negative impact from oh no no I think whatever they did resolved absolutely and I think this will also probably make it better on the back looking at the park it looks like Park l l it's to set back um currently in the zoning you have a 5 back worldwide so either have to get deviation from that or right to the plan change it or they'll just have to adjust a lot to and again this is a concept I guess it's a concept that just looking at the numbers it's tight it's tight there tight yes get to the back side of the right a building but nonetheless you know so it's not a sensitive spot to have it that close but yes certainly looks like it's within the thank you Joe did you have some Stan you had some in front of me but it's a good it's a good size number that was offered as a non-binding number by the state and the mayor counil have to decide whether to accept that number or to for an alternative if they have reason to believe with our in our guidance and Analysis of how the state came up with that it's a lower but it's going to be a decent Siz number as required January the filings by January 31st but yeah it'll have be in the works prior to that to figure out how and you know if to respond to that number many 42 um that's proposed currently So 20% set aside would be eight so eight depends if you round up or down eight to nine is the intention and there would be just to be clearing want be too far into that but there are a lot of credits available there already were credits for rental housing in the prior rounds going forward there's credits for Transit oriented housing there's for redevelopment that actually gets you extra credits so in some cases one and a half units to one two units to one different there's different I don't have all the numbers in front of me so you can Avail the Bro can Avail itself of some of those credits to say if you had eight units it equals 12 or 16 depending which credits apply yes so just to be clear that that's out it's in the law it's trying to incentivize Redevelopment Transit friendly development that type of thing for the affordable units what is the current state of this round in terms of municipalities actually being required to create the housing there's there are numbers of signs to first to deal with that once you get past that if you accept the number for your third round prospective need that's the new typical affordable units a certain percentage them are supposed to be essentially realistic again I don't know that it wasn't preparing for a fullblown for hous discussion but about quarter of those units are supposed to be actually you know buildable actual units versus the credits versus looking down the line at rezonings that may or may not happen but that said it's the rules only came out in the past few months the numbers just came out a month ago DCA just released data just over the weekend showing how they came up with these numbers for the vacant land so that literally just hit our all the planers desk on Monday morning to look at what that is and what's the time frame for those so again the deadline of the January 31st is to say we accept or or offer an alternative to the number and then from that there's other steps where then it's filed and objections can be filed by state AG State AG but like affordable housing advocacy groups developers interested public whoever wants to do that by the summer of next year is when this should be all in place in place like people can move in oh no not the bill no no to give up a plan to deal with your 150 units your 120 units whatever the number ends up being that the affordable housing plan for the bur would have to be updated to say okay we're going to this that the other thing and again not just you every single town is going through this it's unfortunate that the timing is what it is but that's the law that was passed set those deadlines um are there any laws for Green Space anywhere amongst the bills this the affordable housing legislation is solely focused on that it does not include any and there's no requirements I know of that says Le should account for saving more green space because I feel like some of this space should be green space oh okay you're saying within this project yeah but I mean overall a law that we're trying to keep some or make some or enhance that could be a recommendation as well the current improved lot coverage is maximum 80% so that means at least 20% is green as in not you know not a fullblown you know green but yes grass trees non- pavement essentially so it's 20% set aside in the draft R development plan the um when you John mentioned the uh that the other side should be uh built on my thought when we were together last time was that why would we have to continue to look at R Aid and its parking lot but then Joe talked about all the parking spaces that people use there for Town um I don't see how you can have this beautiful building and then it appears that um lot 11 would stay the way it is it just doesn't make sense um the the four stories uh for me I think two stories is sufficient for the whole thing um I don't think that obtrusive top part needs to be there I think it could be a whole smaller construction see I disree you know better than me but that's my opinion you have to understand this is1 Zone John said that you know he he doesn't want to touch some of those residential units on Harrison Avenue you know all those homes but one is actually owned by a private entity all the other homes are basically rentals they're owned by individuals uh and I understand that you know this that there is a developer that is is already in line to do some of these and I think during presentation when they came they working on that last unit and hopefully they an agreement with potential you know owner of that property um it's it's can you elaborate on what an agreement is well the Price Is Right everybody will sell oh okay I think that's that bottom line is is that you know the person that's been that's living there whatever they offered them initially and they came here with an attorney representing them uh but bottom line is is that in order for this let's say whole concept to work they ultim have to have that one piece of property um The Price is Right anything goes but that's not my problem that's their problem um you know we are talking about C1 commercial District uh all those homes over there are actually legally nonconforming if you look at the uh permitted uses in C1 Zone uh single family are not permitted you know we do have mixed use which allows certain portion of residential over retail which this is proposed um and and as far as the number of of stories you know in front of it you have WR it and and who knows what's going to come of right down the road U and then you know behind it you have rocket Building Supply and talking to the owner of bracket Supply a while back there are some plans that are in to works also for that particular property when it's going to happen how quickly I don't know but I have a feeling is that the nature of what's been happening with the business if you go over there it's all locked up okay I think you have to make a special appointment to go and buy a brick or two so I think that business is kind of also going down uh I wouldn't be surprised down the road we might see another development being coming up whether in front of us or the board of adjustment or some kind of you know concept to go over there uh you know the fact of the the four stories and the train station on zetti you know came and and for the approvals again the height of it was concerned because on one side of zet was strictly all residential and I think that building came out fairly nice you know with that one story on train side being higher than the ZET side so I don't have an issue with this as being proposed I don't have an issue with the four Stories being proposed I think you look rendition of it I think that the last two stories are kind of offset I think there is some kind of terce although I wish I had a a better rendition of the plans yeah that appears to be so that would have been nicer I think we got a better plans from H Crossings than we got for this know uh but personally I don't have an issue with this I think uh you know the vacant property on a corner uh number 13 which is you know the hair cage right now that's 11 the Hair Cottage isn't it well it's yeah it's it's the number 13 West Prospect oh Goa oh show off no it's okay there are certain certain properties that stick in your head but anyhow uh I I think I I I personally like the concept I I think hearing from homeowners and and everything else worldwi taxes are high we just had a conversation you know about a different piece of prop in walwick that the taxes are you know ridiculously high and and I think by having some of these forward Concepts to come forth ultimately can help to reduce maybe the burden that unfortunately majority of homeowners have to carry we do not have a lot of commercial and Industrial presence in town so personally I don't have an issue with this concept if this was in the middle residential area something absolutely I would but you don't have any residential other than the ones that we actually discussing my understanding that's that's one building there is no separation pole am I right just to be clear the I believe the existing building would remain and would not be connected I've seen a few Concepts that have okay thrown around that that loc that part of the property you know deep but it would be but yeah that lot would remain is part of the area believe under control or potential control of the developer it would not be an issue other words it be within the same lot that there'd be the closer setbacks to each other 13 Prospect building is stay that's the idea back right where you currently have just pavement now and the park going to be picked up in the parking lot itself versus is the parking lot or is it covered by can the current um concept shows that that's covered as you come in so it's like underneath the building and then it opens up in the back the entire area yeah this is not a covered okay yeah some revelop concept you'll see the whole Podium and build above it this is not at all that it's open air in the backside of all those townhouse units Madam chair if I just go back question about affable housing I just want to be clear on the record the Redevelopment plan says 15% for rentals 20 for ownership so that would be six to eight units if that's the standard applied if it's all rental properties on the current language cess are set aside the idea being is's a greater demand generally for rental housing for affordable units so you try to incentivize by having a lower percent that's the standard Statewide Ty 15% 20 I just was sometimes it's 20 across the board but here we're we're having separate separate stand thank you yeah it's all on the sheet it's noted on the sheet the affordable again there's also a formula it has to be followed that of the UNS minimum of 20% must be three bedrooms of the affordables only just by to try to so people don't just typically most towns would say do studios in one bedrooms the idea being that you want them for families as well so minimum of 20% again not in Waldwick everywhere in the state would be 20% three bedroom minimum maximum 20% one bedrooms then uh remainder essentially TW or can be combination of twos and threes or a minimum maximum of those a lot was there apologize but there definitely there's a set formula for that's in the ordinance currently today as well get another thing too which I mentioned during the previous meeting we had this is that the parking H right a lot of the businesses on West Prospect literally rely on those parking spes if you just hang out there for an hour every day you will see the amount of traffic food traffic that basically happens across the street for a lot of those uh businesses retail that don't have their own parking it's barely street parking and I think that if if something were to happen to that property and if it does in the future you know I'll be the first one to to cry for some of those parking spaces to be left open because ultimately I think some of the existing businesses probably would struggle tremendously if that parking lot wasn't there did mayor and Council ever consider a municipal lot I mean is that something that walwick would I'm not going to speak on behalf of May and Council but one question I have for you where would you create that lot there is no space right where it is where they're paring for free that's a private property that's a private property that is own and I will tell you is that for private property I'm thrilled that it's not being enforced that toway is on for sure okay I think they've been great neighbors even though the parking lot really is in bad shape but as far as being neighborly I think you can ask for a better neighbor sure well again here's the corner business you know the the guy on the corner of Walter Hammond and West Prospect he Services all those trucks so when they break down and it seems like the post office feet is probably older than me I mean unfortunately every a lot of them so he he his parking is is is Overflow on R parking lot again he's also got a lot of on his been sitting there for like two three four five years there a guy's a car collector you know I I agree he if he got rid of half of the cars that are sitting in his lot he'd be able to park some of those parking those book office trucks in point well taken I'm not crying for it but know but that's yeah but that's you know what I'm trying to say is that a lot of businesses rely on the parking lot for for their regular day-to-day operation yeah I agree with John I'm not convinced that the people that live in Building uh lot one three five seven and eight are all one guy I'm not convinced that one guy owns all five of those houses and I'm not convinced that you know you go in there and strong arm you know we have a we have a plan we have I think there are there are three owners between those homes how many I think there are three owners we have the list correct okay so you still got two you going throw all the people out on no but they're rentals there is one entity one home that is owned outright by a family for all the other ones are rental okay so if you put up a building like this okay I went to Allandale and I looked at the veil in Allen I went to H and I looked at hocus Crossing and it's not called hocus Crossing it's called 619 North I don't believe the people hus allow hus allowed that building to be built in the middle of their town it's it's way way oversized the whole the whole bottom floor is parking garage it's all you know and the parking garage it's got It's like a 30 foot 30 30 foot ceiling inside the parking garage I don't know why it's all like that big underneath and the veil in Allandale looks like a mental asyl I I I think it's horrible but they have a community center they have a nice Community Center and they have a nice gym you know I'm sure that was part of the project so I you know what I don't know there's there's who who paid uh who paid har the architect to draw these up this architect that made this there are no names on these Pap what's that I don't see any names anybody an architect had to draw this oh sure I surely didn't draw it so who's got the juice that pay the architect to for make this conceptual drawing do we know that I can't tell you AR name on made I think it's a rendition just to to give you an idea what's being well somebody rendered it did you render it no I didn't I didn't render it it's a very nice picture shows a nice brick building but Joe Stef Joe in all fairness anytime when an entity comes for any kind of approvals whether it's planing board or zoning board you will have Renditions to get an idea of what it's supposed to be looking for because if that didn't come in front of you you'll be asking for it can you show me what it looks like well a 40 foot building this large right here in wal I've lived in wiing for 70 years I think we've look way out of place maybe maybe cut 20 feet off the top maybe this building would be would fit in there and be appropriate that's what I said but this is way large and I think the one in the middle of hus is way large for the middle of ohus I have nothing to do with what people do in ohus I one in Allen the veil and let's talk about rents so you're talking in the veil in Allandale they were getting uh two bedroom apartment $4,000 a month okay walri station which we have down by the railroad tracks a studio $2,300 a month and a two-bedroom goes up to 6,000 a month okay um 619 North in hus that's this Crossing one bedroom 3250 a month so this would these would be nice for people that don't live around here who have a lot of money who want to move into Waldwick but for the people of Waldwick the people who live in this town who might be looking for an alternate form of housing than have buying a house I don't know unless they hit the lottery I don't going be a for you drop it off the well no you said we're going to have to we're going to have to come up with affordable housing okay 20% of these apartments are going to have to be affordable that's one out of five six six to eight it's 15% for rental housing is the current standard 20% of ownership of own and who sets the income level of what would be affordable and non aordable there are formulas that originally came through COA and now through DCA at the state that is 50 it's 80% of area median in for the whole housing region it has to be affordable to household earning that I go down the detail there's a number that applies so whether it's here or in in Ridgewood in Hocus in any town or for that matter in Jersey City which is part of your housing region the rents are set according to a regional calculation so you have no no discretion for the burrow to set that the cities like Union City nework and Jersey City who don't have any land to build on the state is the state says well if you don't have any land to build on and you can't possibly come up with those units the whole every all the towns of New Jersey have to divvy up those units and come up with that housing right it's a separate issue but that's pretty much just a good summation of the way the state law Works currently as it's written and I mean if Waldwick doesn't have or you know what happens to Waldwick now if we don't have the area to to you know to redevelop or we don't you know to in order to do this you have to knock down it existing housing so we don't have any open space that you can build them so what happens then if you don't have if you run if W says well we don't have any open space to build on what how are you going to penalize what are you going to do to us that's a good question um unfortunately right now the law is there and it's going to have to be addressed in one way or the other or there there are challenges again I don't want to go too far a field there but there a few legal challenges floating around out there some towns in yourin Mon and others are challenging it in court other challenges are coming with regard to the methodology for now the laws are on the books and the deadline that next looms is January 31st to say how you'll address these numbers or or if you accept the numbers then how you address them and when this goes back to the mayor and Council I I um I understand that they going to have powers of condemnation they would be able to condemn properties to make so back to what Joe is saying as far as a new also to is knocking it down by two stories I will tell you is that no developer is going to come over here to purchase this property to develop it to have two stories building nobody will want to touch it the economics today will not allow it really absolutely absolutely there has to be a point of return break even and ultimately everybody's in the business to make money okay by reducing this by two stories I will tell you this will be dead if you just come up and say you know this is maximum height that will allow in that area then we're going to be staring at that corner lot that's empty corner lot and all of those homes to Kingdom come because nobody will touch it unfortunately it's the economy and the reality that we live in today we don't know many allow to get there's a lot of determin the shape of the building doesn't always lay out as easily as you think but it might right there's ways you can cut up units to fit yeah it's a really good question or they could go around where the town houses are and continue uh apartments on two floors without the retail space eliminate the tow houses and have apartments on both first and second floors all the way through to around Frederick I I think because there'll be separate buildings I'm not from zoning perspective whether that's permitted because you know see1 Zone makes us permitted so it's almost by default you have no choice but to have retail oh yeah retail is good where it is and then continuing on Harrison where the tow houses are and Frederick that can continue to be a two-story building and eliminate the two I think that's that's a concept that ultimately is is p in what we trying to achieve over here I to achieve over here is ultimately come up with a you know with a height number of stories and if if let's say because we seem to have some division over here but that is the number one concept that we're trying to achieve ultimately if you let's say approve or disapprove depends on on a use as far as the concept you can always ask for that during let's say the true site plan approval but at least they have a a set firm Building height number of stories and things like that that this is actually what's in front of us today yeah I think hocus is a bit obtrusive I went there today and that's what I thought um and really felt awful when they were building the place because I thought this just doesn't belong here but now there um what kind of population uh how many people would be living here do we have any kind of number I mean if we took like it's hundreds no no no if uh 42 units uh there are calculations that you can use multipliers ruers came up with that's based on because actual build developments it's going to be closer to two two per unit you know some of the smaller ones might be l some we have three three you know three to four I don't want to guess but it's not hundreds because if it's even double we're talking2 apartment 80 to 100 people again rough real rough numbers just based on the type of development is I thought it was like 200 people that's good less is good yeah the 21 townhouse units would maybe be a bit even there they're not really that large believe it or not for a townhouse product these aren't like the ones you see hus over there with the SLE you know the real highend like that these are smaller more compact almost like a urban more Urban Design walkable design know wide open proper they're showing at um three stories so it' be more than that because the garage is underneath so they're closer to 40 actually 30 very similar to to what you have the and also we just built on you know so you got the ground ground floor which is the garage and then you have still two FL above it plus the these are flat roof ones are showing on the concept so may be a little bit less and just to give me an idea the three units that were built from the rent on those units is over $6,000 it's it's crazy who's living there Donald Trump uh n then I would have been probably 12,000 but um no but it's it is well they' certainly be bigger on paper any it's uh so you know when when you say as far as the the prices that are people are paying it is outrageous but this is what Market dictates today and they and they fing them jumping really quick I don't want to try to get too far a field but again just for Contex I agree with the rents my experience I'm a planner throughout North Central Jersey it's it's frankly crazy the amount of luxury housing that's been built improved in the last 10 15 years I always keep saying when's it going to end there's really a huge at some point it's going to have to happen but the demand and the high rents keep going because the state is just underbuilt in areas where it's desirable for people to live where there's downtowns where there's Transit where you have parks and good schools that type of thing again I could in Bergen County I do work Union County Essex County forget even Hudson County and more urban areas I'm talking pretty much all Suburban older Suburban towns similar to Waldwick in terms of age so in some cases it's larger units that pick up people that sell their house and want to maintain a residence and then keep a place in Florida or elsewhere out the shore but have a place closer home and they can afford it because they sold their house for good return in other cases it's younger professionals who want to live close to a train be able to go to work and maybe have one car in set two for a couple so there's a ton of demand for this looks frankly a little behind the curve but that's fine you know it's a smaller downtown I understand why there's been resistance to it but if you just look around anywhere of the train station and a downtown and a town with good schools and a nice you know it's nice housing stock nice Parks everything right there's demand for this type of is the station uh at capacity I'm not 100% sure but I I think it's there were six open units when I checked about two weeks and I don't know how I don't know what the total number of units I think there was some 80 were only Avail and they were differentes the developer there at least one of Russo correct they have they have a chain a brand called verela go look it up sometime they're at they're probably in 25 different towns now next to train station it's very nice product actually to I live in Union County in Garwood right next to that train place a Union Train Station three to four but they just have realized they can just take this and replicate it right all over the place and maybe it's it's kind of cookie cutter maybe but it's they're finding they can make money somehow building these three to four story buildings close to Transit and downtowns and get these kinds of rents what happened on Rich yeah the behind the Y there there are all kinds of new buildings over there in the middle you know commercial so it's it's not affecting anybody who you know single family home is granted you know in order for this concept to take you're dealing with some homes which are legally non-conforming right now it is not a permanent use single family they were conforming when they got there when they originated there and then then then ordinances changed so they were there first 4,000 square feet I mean could be one large one but more likely two or three just given rough sizes Tech I will say it's it's hard in these these mixed use developments to the rents they need to charge for them that's always an issue as well right so often have to see it vac for because everyone wants the mixed use but you pay all like Joe said the economics it cost a lot of money to put that in build parking and have a nice store front and suddenly you know you're charging twice as much as you'd be paying just up the street yeah how many businesses have we had at the station this is the third in there that little CRP place that's there Cafe and she doing well is doing great good they found a niche wonderful they're doing great yes but yeah it's a very small scale retail it's just the idea to have something that that's active you walk by and it's not just a gr wall you have storefronts some sine you figure 14 Bas based on the drawing 14 on the on the retail space two stories be 34 power probably are SES Street that's a little shorter a little two building rough numbers yes the only differ West the um Town housee units are Ste because of the parking in front you've got 20 feet in front of them so it wouldn't it'd be a similar height but they pushed back from the street versus if it was apartment style you could pull up farther closer to the street but that would give you a different type of Urban Design feel the idea being here to try to kind of give a little more space in front but but as far as height goes it be roughly roughly yeah Town's probably slightly slightly shorter because you don't need as much on the ground floor for the retail the idea is the retail in the garage has to be higher but I would typically write a plan like this is three stories 40 feet to allow for that ground floor plus the everything is and we're at four stories 50 feet so I think the top yeah each of the upper floors is roughly 10 feet so you take off one 50 40 then you're still adding 10 for elevator shs H all that stuff uh that's in there just as a it's a typical exception just because need that for the L for that but it's limited to a certain amount of roof area just because by Nature you don't need a lot of that yes that could be a recommendation as well if there's an issue with that but that's very common I don't know that's that's my understanding of it that's usually a nice selling point some places it's you know communal here if it's in front of units it usually would be individual unit owners you renters have their own ah outdoor space yeah yeah again that I just Pi pictur of Vera one near where I live it's very it's like that's on the third floor there and you see the apartments have a little deck that could so it steps the building top back outdoor space and this one the proposal on very common is to have a rooftop amenity for the residents as well so just a place where you can have a Sund deck maybe a grill or whatever typee of thing a fire pit that type of thing you have top I don't again I haven't seen a detailed plan showing that but that's a very common amenity in these new build on the Terrace portion not on the roof um it could often times be on the top roof or in this case a third story place it could be on that one I've seen it on top of yeah top of the four story buildings five story buildings nothing's designed like that yet but that's a very just to be aware that a selling point provides a little more outdoor space too just to Paul anything Cory well all we can do is make recommendations um and then for the best it's up to Mayor and counsel what happens but then it comes back with the site plan next steps to yeah after Thanksgiving isomin and we think it is absolutely wrong still has to go back to in so so am I feeling like we're being rushed like John said or is it just me rushed you are being rushed I mean is there a time frame that we're the statute does have that yes since we started since it was referred to you since it was referred to us frankly when we got it being to decide it at the last meeting and instead we kind of yes slowed it down and said we are still in good shape if we make our right issue is this concept consistent in general with the master seems doesn't seem unre terms use in terms of the idea when you get specifics something say it's generally consistent typically the product would be of course sale but it's not they're not indidual lots so in this case that makes that different that's a really good question a lot of them do even two three UNS know lot of they sold individually but they do create broken up into correct as condos I guys don't know what theal we do know the proposal however is 42 units 42 resal units 4are of retail and 81 parkes 120 are required to be fair the Redevelopment plan has a lower standard so it matches that it does not match the current does not comply with the current zoning red plan allowed for reduction for the factors I mentioned previously the proximity of Transit Serv and the mix of uses shared parking but that's also fair game for you to consider whether you agree with the reduced standards so it is comply what's proposed there it complies with this plan but not your current Zone well they could park it right if there's not enough room I mean not down the road that that certainly re development projects do have public private shared parking which works very well so that could be something on that or other sites to keep in mind reference we definitely have that kind of mix where they set aside a certain but not on this proper that's proposing this what else something when the original that was being done to guard against bankruptcy and it seems to me not looking this plan is not looking at right and in fact is really Lev power in favor of this other side of of the area I'm not pretty to F footsy was do in terms of the properties but my concern is that this Bo explain to the public one thing and thisn going else thank you for clarifying that carries just to be clear the whole R development development are you have a condemnation the possibility exists because of the mayor and council's Adoption of the are based on your recommendation which means that the gold set properties are sold to one entity that condemnation right also falls the new entity if he doesn't develop the property correctly they can be condemn yeah still there the power power of condemnation holds true to hold the developer to developing the property set property to the standards that the planning board and the town determines correct I don't want to give a defend of answer on that without having the facts in front of me but I generally speaking that's the idea of course yes that's right you condemn the property then you basically control right the other the other issue with Redevelopment was that that the governing body can act as Redevelopment entity essentially that can enter into contracts or agreements with property owners and say you do this and you have things you have to do don't they can resend the redeveloper designation for example that's one of the benefits of it that you can towns can do that and say yeah you know what you're not living up there into the bargain you lose your ability to build didn't do thatment decided to changes and could anything some he met the letter of the law but the that happen it can happen but if you have condation rights it gives you control rment again in general terms that's the idea expires at some point out I think might be 30 40 years in the future maybe is there Sunset Clause but uh you're looking a ways out it's for the for seable future Goods about that needs to be consider the to SCS that's where going to walk traad look that is really a that is a planner's opinion and I think it would be be re to Discount to plan that without having a really really solid basis for that prot and I don't I don't see one off the top of my head but yall are the board so if yall see one articulate as I think it could be made readjusted I need to level it and make it two stories across the whole board where the town houses are that could be two stories of more apartments around that's Prospect that's Harrison and Frederick can I ask a question going back to an earlier regarding parking 11 it looks like the uh haircut place is staying the building is main yes but we're also Tak now park right the parking would be according to entally within the public underneath the building you see some spots as well in there so they would fall within within the new development that parking okay yes the parking yeah supposed to be picked up that's actually a really good point that they they should be calculating the requirement based on that floor area just it's on the property so it has to apply whatever the one per one for 400 per say there would have to apply to that building on the ground floor as well many which one just one apartment just one one apartment and then small probably 800 foot you know ground floor not very large right requ for couple driveway is certainly substandard how they get in out but yes the idea put inunction obviously some interested moved a concept forward um you mean for once you get to a factual full plan um there can be a range of public benefits that are negotiated whether it's with regard to you know the side as I mentioned before the curbing or sidewalks streetscape improvements uh new lighting Landscaping sometimes it's again public parking signs falls under that again not in this particular site most likely but right that's often times something bicycle facilities you name it in addition to just other time measures as you know deadlines as far as building certain things or you know how projects phased in so you can't just sit on a property for 10 years and do nothing probably more than likely to be a negotiation about how long it takes to do certain things and what you're Milestones on those are all things that could be considered tax depends what the mayor council decide to do if they UTI if it's a standard you know under current taxation most likely the value will go up because the improvements um the value of the land I guess that wouldn't change necessarily if there was to be a long-term tax abatement or Pilot that would be a different story as far as how that works out it's a whole different calculation typically with a pilot uh can be it's not that's one of the powers that's out there I've seen it done with I've seen done without sometimes short of five years but a large Redevelopment project it depends what the you know what the ask is if it's something that's a really contaminated site for example that really needs a lot of money poured into that usually is something that justifies that in other cases just just because of high cost of land or some other public purpose and I watch every one of those retail get tax EV and as soon as the tax were to run the story other guys in and now they're and we've got to keep track we got to keep up with them and if we don't it's just not going to work ta right now the concerns that I have build height also some questions about the parking especially this to part of site and can we say about that we thought it included the whole block and now it doesn't majority say what that the recation requ the time this board has to respond has to put that recation up down sideways whatever it is then they can we find out you find out what your right right they can still override that right absolutely I just want to for that matter if you don't take action the 45 days elapses they just go forward regardless so we putting something on the record that's contrary at least you're putting your thoughts out there if you just let it we don't if you didn't meet in time or whatever decide not to act you could do that as well but just obviously you're not you don't get a shot at offering suggestions right that's why we're here tonight we don't have that better or worse this board does not have that power we don't have the power let's put it this occasions allp what else Mark anything specifics part of the track right and that's where we started prop but that was part of the original Redevelopment says this Zone you can redevelop the Zone The Zone so anything in that block can be redeveloped right now the only proposal we have is for the eight properties right and they have a plan to do x a proposal with changes to the current1 standard that's what we're looking not now talking to the to about we don't like the fact that it's not in I understand that say that doesn't may not matter but Z that zone doesn't encompass not all the entities have to be whatever I mean somebody could have came back with half those properties and said I'm G to do this right and that's what I want to do they came back with this clear the other areas are designated no they're designated but there hasn't been any interest from a developer move forward to a to I think part of the reason for that not happen is because you have a lot more individual owners than all the other prop Cliff you have what you need well the question do you want the recommendation May why don't I lay it out and perhaps have a it sounds like the recommendation would be to acknowledge that the proposal for the lot question is consistent generally generally consist consistent with the master plan the master plan however recommends against going beyond the current zoning height maximum andies and further that despite the proposal for um reduced parking requirements the parking envisioned by the master plan envisioned by The Proposal must be reevaluated particularly in light of the fact that it does not address the existing the and finally that the has concerns about the fact that although understanding the nature of the situation it is concerned by the lack of comprehensive Redevelopment for the entire track in need uh the entire area in need of Redevelopment as opposed to this limited tract those were what I got out of you guys is there something more that should be in there and is that consistent with what you want to send to the mayor and Council that's what I do just ask a question recommends no based on the height just as a hypothetical and the mayor and councel follow accept that recommendation does it kill the whole thing I mean Joe was saying it's not economically feasible for bilder consider this well so what happens at that point well that's that's a very good question the issue really is anyone who has worked with developers and or negotiated velers knows that like any other negotiation what someone says at the outset may not be where they're willing to come down in the end I there are great stories about this stuff the stuff of Legend I know a developer who was going back and forth with hden years ago and Mar build some nice condos and they said well yeah that's a good idea and he said okay here's the plan and the burrow said oh no that's way too many units he said okay I can I can work with you on that and he cut it back and looked and said still way too many units he said look I can shave off maybe one or two more but at that point it becomes untenable it just becomes no longer economically viable and they said well no you know it's a done deal you cannot do that and he said okay well I'm not going to develop it and he sold it to a house of worship and the irony there is by so doing the municip lost tax reeven entirely so the cautionary tail a is that you can cut off your nose to spar your face but by the same token I have a little voice in my ear that I always take with me my mother who used to say you don't ask you don't get and you never know what's feasible or what isn't feasible nobody's going to propose less than they really want but what they really want doesn't have to be what they really need and that that For Better or Worse that's where the counil comes in that's their Val and God knows we've got people on our on our counil in the mayor's office sadly to understand this just one side says something does that's where it so that is the long answer to a short question so we want to move with a Voice vote need some need some kind of form of guidance I mean i' I've laid out things but yeah half the board may look and say no that's not what I want wanted to say anyone need to hear Cliff repeat what he wrote or will write technically you're not allowed true absolutely but at this juncture the Board needs to have some idea of the direction it to it wants to go in with the letteror counsel that's all and subject to modific look you may hear a voice from a crowd that just completely turns your head and in that case there's no final vote here so no and the letter is not final it's just preliminary well the letter in other words you may want to shift based on what you hear what you all say in a week proposed get it out in the my recollection is that the time runs on that Friday deang based on public meeting uh your regrets over thanks dinner and this was for discussion and to bring it to the final and we're still not allowed to discuss this keep that in mind outside absolutely this is a discussion of the board in arriving at something this is still an open this is still an open matter before the board as such it cannot be discussed by y'all with members of the public nor can it be discussed by all in groups small or large because du so is a violation of the open public meetings Act once matter is open any and all commentary has to happen here are we allowed to speak to people that will be directly affected in this area no we're not allowed to gather any information about public opinion about what people you really should not well then how are we supposed to a responsible judgment we hope that the public comes and tells us so we're at their Mercy if they don't show up at the meeting happens all the time happens all the time people don't come yeah when it for them people come you know that no they'll they'll pack this Hall when the mayor of council say hey we're building this because we want to lower taxes and we need this money to come in then they'll say or they may say we decided to live in walwood not in rwood not in Allen so board me as a board member I can't go I can't speak to anybody that's going to be affected down in that area you really should not it's it just it opens all kinds of snake pits because because I don't think that's I don't think that's fair because remember of the board what the law is what's fair is very different is that the trth Joe because you're a member of the board the things you say have more influ and as a result they get taken and they get run with a lot more than if somebody and that's hows up in trouble and sideways with chunks of because there's commentary coming out because it's imp look it's impossible to ask someone what do you think about this without getting into a discussion now once you're in that discussion what you say or don't say may not be accurately perceived and God knows when somebody starts saying well I was talking to Joe ORV and he said by the time the third person says well Frank was talking to Joe ORV you know what it's going to sound like we've all been there right y it's going to be nothing like what you said right but the guy tell a secret to him and he tells Secret it's come on we all play that good not to put yourself the we played that game as a kid okay understood right makes sense I'm not I'm not trying to be I don't I understand that's separate yeah exactly I have but that's let's move on gentlemen and ladies we're up to okay we're up to is that what I suggest yes I would we like to ask each of us yes or no part of the whole thing how is how many is that really Tak away the only thing I would say with that is the you're considering revelop the concept plan was trying to give you direction as what it looks like I wouldn't read too much into how fits there just because it can be like I said but you can design it to have a bunch of one bedrooms up there you could have two three bedrooms pen houses your concern is more providing parameters for how it looks for height I I get I understand the reasoning for the question I just would caution against getting into that detail because there's no it doesn't have a for it's not a formal site plan to it's just a concept that's drawn up that looks prettier or not whatever you think of it it's a concept and it's matter of and a site plan may come in looking entirely different right and is there did I read somewh there might be an opportunity to have someone come and present or that's not Craig mention that so we have to think of that did you read that email it's it is absolutely up to the board the question are you reasonably confident understand what's being proposed and if you are then you probably have enough information to make the decision on what recommendation to make to the council because we'll get a second Zing presuma can't plan won't allow for any kind ofari it's typical Redevelopment it's either you comply and you get C variances if you need or you have to amend the plan yeah so will not be zoning board exactly so we will have an opportunity to hear from if and when there's a formal plan site plan yeah it's go far down well it's assuming step two is our recommendation step three is what the U mayor and councel does with it and then assuming assuming as we like to say arguendo purp of argument that the mayor counil say okay yeah we're okay with this idea then it becomes all right um may ask your opinion Paul what you think about having the developer come here well it's um like I said it's a plan that is intended to give you an idea scale of it and what the use of it would be I mean and we've you think we've exhausted all that I mean In fairness I was going to say you've gone above and beyond as far as getting the Public's involvement there's no formal requirement for a hearing or any public feedback on this stage of the process typically it's a board just looks at it in one night again not to say have to do this Cliff gave you good advice that you have 45 days you do it as you see and you're allowed to get public comment often times it's just yeah it's consistent we want you to lower the height do this that think send it right back um as far as the benefits of having a redeveloper there it's we would just be asking some of the same questions and then we might come up with a few more but I I I'm not sure I I was leaning towards it but now I'm not so much in my experience it's not common to do that just for that reason because yeah even if it's you know because yeah because again there's no unless it's something that they're saying we we'll give you our word you're going to see the exact same plan down the road if you like it yeah that's usually not the this just by Nature just not the case because they hav't you know engineered it to the N degree and see what actually fits on the site sure they have ideas but once you start you know coming up with storm water management everything else and driveways it really changes so test and all goes to h there's a lot of things to do right you might have a tank in the ground or something else yeah whatever it is good thank you um so is it just a yes or a no there be a caveat with it cave well I'm saying no as proposed Joe well I agree with um the letter that Cliff wants to we need a yes or no in addition to then my answer's no Stan John no as proposed or no Mark and that would be a thank you Paul and that would be a Cory AG thank you we're good oh Joe so sorry Joe I thought you went to 13 West Prospect answer is yes thank you sir sorry my bad no it doesn't it's all what we want so okay anything else it sounds to me like I'm writing pretty much what I suggested at the outset the while it's this does appear to be consistent with the U master plan generally specifically it is not what the board the board does not approve it based upon height parking um Focus right if you have to be specific then that's that's where it starts that's where it starts that's exactly what I started with while while it is consistent with the master plan generally consistent like I said final come it'll subject to well a lot of us um might be the first time for a big project like this so I think that's why we're sure mulling and really making the mayor be tortured over there in that chair but sorry mayor where you need a recliner I know thank you for being so patient but uh yeah so some of us is the first time and I think it's important that we do what's in our hearts and what's best for walwick and some of us are still learning as we go so I appreciate all of your input and and um we'll be back a week from Wednesday December 4th I hope we're all in attendance Mark not youy yep and Happy Thanksgiving Mark you're not here on the 4th all right sounds good thanks everyone Happy Thanksgiving