##VIDEO ID:5c4kMmM_rEA## a [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] even and happy New Year this is Joe Fagen public information officer welcome to the first Township council meeting for the new year at this time I'd like to turn control the meeting over to our municipal clerk Karen Carnival thank you Joe this is to inform the General Public that this meeting is being held in compliance with Section 5 of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 the notice for this meeting was emailed to the West Orange Chronicle and the Star Ledger on December 3rd 2024 councilwoman celino present councilwoman gber Michel present councilman kovak present councilwoman Ruden present councilwoman Scarpa present mayor McCartney will everyone please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance I stes okay the first thing on our agenda this evening is the swearing in of our council members uh on the agenda this evening we have councilman kobak first but his son is coming in from the city so we're going to go on to right in the back oh he is yeah oh okay so we're not going to change the order okay so councilman kobak uh the oath administered by retired municipal judge Harry starret got can I move this sure okay ready that good yeah that's good I just want to get on camera make sure you speak loud enough so okay I'm GNA speak loud all right as you can all right you ready okay I Joe kovak solemnly swear I Joe kovak do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and the constitution of the state of New Jersey that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the SA that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Saint and to the governments established in the United States and in this state and to the governments that are established in the United States and this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people I do further solemnly swear I do further solemnly swear that I will Faithfully that I will faithfully impartially impartially and justly and justly perform all of the duties perform all of the duties of the office of councilman to the best of my ability of the office of councilman to the best of my ability so help me God so help me God you're welome next on our agenda is councilwoman Joyce Ruden her oath will be administered by mayor Nancy Adams of Maplewood the oath is it's the second one down there you go you lower both we're both uh this is this is the prayer book from is and it's over a 100 years old okay raise my right hand left left hand right hand raise left hand okay repeat after me I staying I chice Ruden do solemnly swear do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution that I will support the Constitution of the United States of the United States and the Constitution and the Constitution the state of New Jersey of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear true faith and that I will bear true faith and Allegiance and allegiance to the same to the same and to the governments established and to the governments established in the united states in the United States and in this state and in this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people I I do further solemnly swear I do further solemnly swear that I will Faithfully that I will faithfully impartially impartially and justly and justly perform all the duties perform all the duties in the office of councilwoman in the office of council woman to the best of my ability to the best of my ability so help you God so help me God congratulations all I just wanted to is it on I just wanted to add another prayer uhu um for those of you who know it um say it along with us and it is just a gratitude for bringing us to this day not just for myself but for West Orange and for for better days in West Orange so and for my mom who Al was the first woman to run for Council in West Orange um elu am Miss okay the next on our agenda is councilwoman Michelle castelino and the oath will be administered by Senator John mcken yeah can you get the Bible underneath we have a moment just like to congratulate bill for all of his service and councilwoman Tammy for what you did and wish all of the best Joys to yourself and Joe we all count on for all of us that live here Michelle you raise your I need the uh I don't have it memorized yet Mr  Michelle and I uh Michelle and I go back a year or two uh I can remember her when my younger sister and and her were cheerleaders at West Orange High School uh and now more or less as life goes on the two of us share pictures of our grandchild back and forth with each other so it so Michelle if you do me the honor of raising your hand as your wonderful husband holds the Bible and please repeat after me I Michelle celino do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States Constitution of St and the constitution of the state of New Jersey St and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments established in the United States and in this state under the authority of the people I do further solemnly swear that I will faithfully impartially and justly perform all the duties of the office of councilwoman to the best of my ability so help me God congratulations councilwoman we have a representa from congresswoman we have a representative from congresswoman L Monica m yes aanti pop okay she'd like to present the new council members looks like we have two Representatives how cute it's okay mine's here too almost a decade older here um good evening everyone good evening everyone my name is Ashanti Pope I'm the Outreach manager with congresswoman MC's office sorry I just picked my baby up from daycare and it was enough time to drop home and get here I just want to say congratulations to everyone who is being sworn in tonight um you guys have a big responsibility and I'm excited for you all to be in your role so we have Congressional certification from congresswoman mcgyver who couldn't be here today the first one I would like to present is to The Honorable councilman Joe covia it's it's up to her and her son the shots the second one that I would like to present is to The Honorable councilwoman Joyce Ruden and last but not least is a councilwoman Michelle castelino so I'll just read what it says and it's the same message to all council members it says certificate of of special Congressional recognition is hereby presented to The Honorable which is the person who's being presented to in recognition of your reelection or election as a member of the West Orange Township Council thank you for your continued commitment to serving the residents of your community from L Monica MC Iver member of Congress thank you do she just want with she wants with everyone or just the three of them ask her I don't know do you want it with just the three of them or you gonna do with all the council members aan Michelle you ask her do she want with all of us [Music] right off of Honor one more bring your yes yes sir mayor [Music] want yeah perfect everybody yes from Chris so more to come this is from Board of cusers County of Essex uh state of New Jersey this one is for Michelle calina County of Essex same statement of the determination Board of cusers election held County of okay this one is for Joe kovia S thank you you're welcome by you're welcome we got work to do [Music] [Music] we all remind you hey next on our agenda is the nomination and election of the council president for 2025 are there any uh nominees I I'll make a motion to nominate Council I wanted to make a motion for him okay um me notes sure so so I am honored and would like to make the nomination to nominate Joe kovak for council president this year Joe served our town as a dedicated councilman for 10 years during which time he remained an unwavering voice for good governance fiscal responsibility and transparency as a truly independent leader he consistently put people over politics advocating for responsible decision-making and accountability in his decade of service um he he was only given the opportunity to serice council president once Joe's dedication and experience combined with his independent voice and proven track record make him the right choice for council president this year I also want to take a moment to congratulate both you Joo councilman Joyce Ruden on their elections as well as councilwoman um Michelle castelino I look forward to working with the three of them as we end councilman Scarpa as we focus on good governance accountability and transparency for the people of West orange together we will prioritize the needs of our residents and ensure that our decisions reflect what is truly in your best interest I second that third vote yeah we have to vote we gotta have a vote okay councilwoman celino yes councilwoman gber Michel yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden definitely councilwoman Scarpa yes congratulations and now we'll have the swearing in of the council president is Judge star also doing that I didn't know I needed him but I guess I do here your honor could I bring you up again the is over there oh yeah the whole y bring them on up got your bi right under here no well it is the same but it's Council pres it's instead [Music] of I don't think I can do that I Joe kovak to Solly swear I Joe kovak do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of New Jersey and the constitution of the state of New Jersey that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the governments established in the UN United States and in this state and to the government ments that are established in the United States and this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people I do further Sol swear I do further solemnly swear that I will Faithfully that I will faithfully impartially impartially and justly and justly perform all of the duties perform all of the duties of the office of president of the office of president of the counsel to the best of my ability of the counsel to the best of my ability so help me God so help me God that's cute thank very very brief remarks I just want to say thank you to my colleagues for their confidence even if I'm not 100% sure that it's well placed I will certainly try uh my best to uphold your expectations I just want to acknowledge that there are other people up here on the deas who uh have rightfully earned the right to be in as council president this year and I want to salute them uh for uh uh setting aside what they thought was uh should happen with what they wanted to happen so I just want to say thank you very much uh to everybody who uh we're coming together as a team um uh I want I want to thank everybody who supported me who voted for me and I just want to say to the people who I haven't yet convinced to vote for me I'm certainly going to earn try to earn not earn but try to earn uh your support over the next four years so thank you very much so madam CL the next step is to the council okay you just stay there though I may need you okay uh the next uh steps we're going to take is to assign Council people uh to the liazon to the various uh committees and commissions of the township and just want to uh uh go through these we usually at least last time I was here we usually went through each individually and had a vote uh I'm not sure that we have to do that but if we do uh uh Madam clerk is that what we need to do um yes we need the same nomination and vote you do the first second and then if there's no uh if there's not going to be a second nomination we can just say all in favor any oppose but if there is going to be a second nomination then you just don't need to let me know that's what we'll do an individual okay uh the first uh uh the first office is uh the aison is for the downtown West Orange Alliance I'd like to nominate Michelle castelino for the downtown Alliance thank you councelor uh all in favor I I I any opposed okay the motion carries congrats thank you thank you colleagues the next position is uh public relations commission I'd like to keep that post okay I'd like to nominate Michelle celino councilwoman calino and I will second thank you Council all in favor I I I any opposed the motion carries uh for the planning board I'd like to nominate um councilman Scarpa the planning board thank you I'll second that all in favor I I any opposed the motion carries uh for the Degan house I'd like to nominate uh councilwoman Scarpa second yeah that's fine all in favor I I any opposed motion carries uh next next position is for the Rena house I'd like to nominate councilman Scarpa thank you for your commitment advocacy seniors thank you I will second that all in favor I any opposed the motion carries uh next position is the West Orange municipal Alliance committee I'd like to nominate councilwoman gbra Michael I'll second that thank you Council colle uh all in favor I I any opposed the motion carries wtor Arts Council I'd like to nominate councilwoman gbra Michael for that as well I'll second that thank you all and favor I any opposed the motion carries uh open space and Recreation committee I'd like to nominate councilman Ruden I'll second that all in favor I any opposed uh the motion carries for Oscar Shindler Performing Arts Center I like to Nom oh I'll take it if you councilwoman Scarpa if she wanted to sure I'd love it i' like to take my seniors there all in favor I I all oo any opposed the motion cares West Orange Board of Education I'd like to nominate councilman celino I'll second that second thank you Council colleagues uh all in favor I any opposed motion carries West Orange historic preservation commission I'd like to nominate council president kovak I'll second it all in favor I I I all any opposed the motion carries The Pedestrian Safety Committee i' like to honor councilwoman Ruden and I'll second it all in favor I I any opposed the motion carries the economic development commission I'd like to nominate councilman kovak second all in favor I I any opposed I I for yes not who are all in favor okay the motion carries the uh the next position is for the environmental commission I'd like to nominate uh councilwoman Ruden I'll SEC all in favor I I any opposed the motion carries uh the next slot is the older adults Advisory Board like to nominate councilwoman Scarpa second uh all in favor I any opposed the motion carries uh Municipal Insurance Fund is a two-year appointment I'd like to nominate councilman kovak there's two and uh councilwoman Ruden second okay hold on one second J okay I'm ready for the vote okay all in favor of uh council president kovak yes hi hi any opposed that motion carries uh all in favor of councilwoman Ruden I I anyone opposed the motion carries great uh the last one is the joint meeting commission I'd like to appoint council president kovak I'll second it all in favor I any opposed the motion carries nice that was painless we are so efficient aren that's G be a great year our next item on the conference agenda is to uh nail down the 2025 council meeting dates obviously we nailed down the first one tonight um everybody has received the propos a doues Miss sylvestri if I could just solicit from you what are the proposed dates for our trip to it Italy so that may be my issue that's that's very that's very perceptive yes I am asking West AR residents first yeah yeah I may have a cck with the 24 hopefully the same reason okay will you know that tonight well that's what I'm shooting for but 2st I believe 30 is that we 30 if I have to miss one meeting would Madam clerk is that an easy date to just move one week either forward or backwards or is that too tough no he can't do it backwards [Music] okay and we just make sure there isn't anything yeah September October 7 is another bition holiday I don't know if that's a problem or what day is it September 7 I'm sorry October uh yes it is problem yeah no not for me but it's a it's a religious problem no I then let's not then let's not worry about it I'll just miss the meeting all right if if it comes to fruition I'll just missed the meeting it's fine is that okay with you honey oh have one another we have two in August yeah so I'm wondering if we can move we have one on the 30 the one from the 8th to the second of September can't oh okay the 16th yeah right so but the only problem with that is then you have one they're back to back weeks three four five six weeks between oh or five weeks if we move what about September 2 that's right after Labor this the meeting is September 30th uh the this the 21st to the 2 now we have not bought the ticket yet we we could just take a very quick vote of the council about whether you think you can survive without me at one of the council meetings all and all those in favor of me not being [Laughter] here really I don't I don't think at a different date plenty of time you always yeah we have time we have plenty of time to think about it yeah we'll see how much work we get done we'll work extra hard and I I hope to have a conflict in June on one of the days yes I hope yes okay right does your husband know about this my husband is yes okay Council clerk can I sorry you okay May 20th um oh it's Easter Easter it's usually on Sunday so that doesn't look right so I'll deal with it when we get there um usually it's that it's that Sunday okay I have to leave early then it's fine like tonight is Ethiopian Orthodox Christmas Eve tomorrow's Christmas I have to leave to go to church wow around 9:30 10 um I have to say Madam clerk you done an excellent job of getting every holiday ever yeah nice job getting them all on here I have some assistance fromia so should we just well I have I have a couple of things um one some changes on the council uh dates the second thing is that um I would like to propose that the council have um Town H Town Hall meetings um additionally once a month um so that residents can come speak to us and I'd like to publicize that it'll just be like a a power hour so that any residents who have concerns um can just come speak to us directly either oneon-one or we can break up but we'd like to do that once a month be all of the council members all of the council so it should be noticed sorry just comment on that all right can we do the calendar first go right and then the third thing that I want incorporate that into yeah right but I'm going to do it second and we can discuss that second and the third third issue is that I just wanted to propose some ABC dates advance in advance so that we have so we have that on the calendar so um the our according to our um Township Code uh we're only supposed to have one meeting in July and one meeting in August so I'd like to propose that we cancel the meeting on July 8th okay can I just want to speak to that a little bit it's very hard to follow the code with the the meeting date it's because there's so many holidays and we're trying to accommodate different you know meetings getting the business done and all of that so that's why the extra meeting was added because um it just it's very hard to follow the exact um Madam clerk this August we did one meeting and we were fine yeah I mean yeah I it's totally up to you but I'm just saying that if it's not followed that's the reason why because it's just there's just so many we're trying to accom yeah Council so the only comment I want to make with booking Us in advance for these meetings because we could always put them on moving forward and if we make a a consistence amongst ourselves to leave Thursdays open if possible because some of us have like committee meetings and whatnot um for you know other committees but here's the issue that we're going to have and that August date last year actually was slightly problematic for us because if we don't get the budget done before the summer we're going to wind up with the same situation we had for the past two years where we had a third quarter estimated tax bills to our residents so I really would like a priority to be this year to like Town Halls are great they're they're helpful I'm not opposed to that but I'm more I'm more proposing that we don't book ourselves out in such a manner we could always add and say there's a town hall this month as opposed to locking them in now because we need to leave our calendar open to make sure we get the budget done in a timely fashion this year and so that that's all that's my comment because like I do not want to be in the situation again where we're still reviewing the budget uh and um our our taxpayers get estimated third quarter tax bill it it was a problem for a lot of folks last year I understand and my my um I hear what you're saying my response to that is that the open house does not have have to be a tour to force um those that can attend attend I think it's important that somebody from the council be accessible to the public at another time other than the council meetings obviously people can call us at our homes but it would be nice to have a public an additional public session and if it conflicts with any of our schedules you don't have to show up or if if it conflicts with all of our schedules we'll cancel okay but again we have to make sure we get the budget done prior to we can always cancel and maybe if we don't have a lot of um residents that come we can use that session as the budget sessions well if you're going to notice it you have to notice it for a purpose so a specific purpose well we can do that a couple days before right as a well yeah but you're saying if they don't come that night then you can well yeah okay but we could do it after I mean if we set that night aside we can do I you have the meetings here in council chambers yeah and then we can that extra budget meeting that's problem I mean you know they have other meetings they need to get done generally the last Thursdays of the month there's nothing happening so we set a precence it's the last Thursday of every month I don't see it being you know an issue if I could just just as a point of um clarification for scheduling meetings uh Wednesdays and Thursdays are usually occupied uh by the planning board and the zoning board uh as a webinar so uh if there was a meeting scheduled on a Wednesday or a Thursday a council meeting that is that there would be a conflict uh with the uh Zoom schedule um perhaps there's workarounds around that but I just wanted to point that out uh so that you're aware of that but this wouldn't be on Zoom I presume if no it would not be on Zoom we wouldn't need Zoom yeah oh well that's that's better then right it's just a casual come and meet and talk and yeah since we've reserved the night we could also use it for other things that are coming up that we need to no you can't it has to be noticed for that then ahead of time so you won't be able to do that so if nobody shows up you would have to go home you can't say we couldn't notice it a couple days in advance like if we knew how do you know up after I mean people this isn't going to be more than an hour right we're G to set not noticing 48 hours specifically for you can't notice for more than one thing you can but what you're saying is that if somebody if you don't have a lot of people that show up and you have extra time you would go into something else you can't do that because it wasn't noticed for that purpose right but if we know we're getting to the budget we need extra meetings a couple days before couldn't we notice it for both things well what if you have you know 10 people that show up and you want to get done in an hour I don't think we're g to have that kind of well nor if we normally schedule hold on if we Norm normally schedule a budget meeting it's never an hour we're going to be sitting here for several hours so we can always reserve the first hour for our residents and to hear the concern and then I think that would make the most sense right and also if 10 people show up and there are five of us it'll go fast we we don't all have to sit together with every resident to in order to understand what their their concern is right right okay yeah all right and I just want to briefly uh go uh support what councilwoman celino is saying we need to get the budget done just as quickly as we can uh for a number of reasons not the least of which is we can make changes early in the year and have a larger impact on the future budget than we can when we approve it in October so that that is one of my goals and if you want to if you want to uh throw me out now I'm I'm gonna be pushing I'm gonna be pushing the budget very hard this year absolutely so what do you propose then council president well as been has been said you can either add or you can take them away I think it's easier to add them if we can now and then it's easier to take them away later and they're also on the calendar uh if we need them for anything else yes for the budget if we can fit that in as Mr Fagan warned I didn't I was not aware that every Wednesday and Thursday the council chamber okay yeah usually the last week of every month there aren't meetings that happen the planning board and Zoning Board are actually indicated on your calendar so you can see the dates that's how it was laid out yep and nothing the last Thursdays right okay which is why she proposed I think the last Thursdays pretty much except well it didn't work out every single time but okay um um so but but we we were also talking about just the council calendar on for August is just um there are two dates on here for August and um because of the need to separate meetings by two weeks I was wondering if we could eliminate both of those meetings that are scheduled in August and make it the 12th oh I would second that that makes sense yeah well we don't need a motion because this we're going to uh vote on the entire calendar so you tell me what you want moved around is that okay with everybody yes mle of the month it's before Labor Day yeah I'm good with that all right that's good so August 12 okay get rid of the other two and those are the only changes to the calendar that that I have does anybody else have and just going back to the July dates you wanted to eliminate one of them or keep those if we if we could eliminate the eth 8 yeah or we could leave it in as a budget as a potential budget well that's kind ofate should have the budget done no we'll have the done before that we're gonna have a new July that's July yeah that's July we'll be done Joe you'll make sure we can always add something otherwise it won't get in it's got to be done before June or else we're not the tax bill gets affected so everyone's okay with July 8th remove it yeah okay all right there you go we could always add if we need a meeting correct that's true yes absolutely and in June there's only one meeting I see oh so these meeting excuse me council president I ask question woman uh Ruden so you're proposing the last reserve the last Thursday of every month not it doesn't work out every single time but but mostly yes so it would be January 30th and if it would be possible to have it from 5:30 to 6:30 I know that it's hard for you to get here at 5:30 well not even that councilwoman um the whole reason like we even start now at 6:30 yes because people like if you want a good turnout of people coming to be open to the council most people with traffic and getting home from work it's hard for them to get here earlier so if you want a good turnout you're better off leaving at 6:30 I mean that's only that's optional I'll leave that up to you I'm not worried about me I'm worri to I get here I get here just to for context uh we're trying to shorten the meetings uh and trying to keep them from running so late and to do that we wanted to move it up the start times somewhat and then also uh try to have if we get if we can't get all our work done and we'll certainly try to do that uh in the time period perhaps have a special meeting here and there to uh uh to catch up with our agenda but we really are going to try to avoid going past 10 o'clock at night because I think it's just uh makes it too difficult for people who want to follow what's going on to do so if they if the meetings run at midnight one o'clock so that's what we're that's what we're wrestling with right now oh question two so we're going to be here is any of like does madam clerk have to be here like somebody has to record well for the open house the open house no no Chief there anybody legal may want to app but I would think as long you're not I'm sorry Mr Moon could you just just start all over please if you want to treat it like a public meeting then you have to have clerk you have to have all the same things that you would have at a regular public meeting no deliberation then why do you have public meeting they just just taken well if it's if it's literally if it's what if it's no different than any other public comment then there's no there's no action be taken then it doesn't have to be a public meeting so I don't know why there's no action taken well it's because we want five of us to be able to meet with them and we don't want to violate opma if residents are meeting with us and asking us questions but if you're not taking any action we're not taking any action doesn't to be public similar to the mayor's open house with the council yeah absolutely so it doesn't have to be a public meeting no so it doesn't have to be noticed unless you guys are if you guys plan on voting on anything or deliberating or debating if it's literally just allowing residents to come in then it's not an open then it's not a public meeting so we don't have to notice them I don't believe so so what would you call it then names open hour okay open hours open hours coffee with the council right councilman Ruden did you did you want to uh say something I was just trying to no I was just trying okay he answered the question okay thank you Mr M but we would advertise it on the website so people don't come in yes so I do need to know the dates okay so um January January 30th we just have to discuss time um make sure that we're I had suggested 5:30 but I'd like to hear from the other council members how they feel about that time Ian I I understand councilman casto's point I would even compromise and say six six sounds good okay six to no no six s okay council president just a point of order of I was told that the economic development committee and um the public safety advisor board meet on the last Thursday of the month at 7 and 7:30 respectively just so you understand the time frame you you may actually have a board that you're assigned to so just letting you know that so six to seven would work seven is perfect because it's right before your meeting yeah okay that's fine perfect know that thank you Mr Smo like you said if there's more than two of us here it goes faster because right okay all right so should I just continue on or can we do this later okay um uh February 27th okay um March 27th April oh hold on hold on hold on sorry I'm just looking over the calendars I have in front of me as well okay go ahead April 24th well I that's problem for me my husband's in the audience that's my wedding anniversary be night that's okay I mean you don't have bring a cake yeah yeah you can celebrate here look he's he's smiling um May 29th June 26 sorry excuse me councilwoman so um I'm going to I made my other conflict in the summer is downtown Thursdays we celebrate and I help with set up and clean up with Miss bril and the team um so yeah so I'm I can't commit to being there um unless we for whatever reason don't have a downtown thsy on the 26 but I know on I think 31st is our David Cassidy night uh I don't think do that anyway Council Casto because it's a it's a New Year celebration like Ethiopian New Year September 11 and there's a I'm me I hope I don't butcher it hijar New Year which is a religious holiday so I don't think we should do on that evening anyway um June 26th okay so uh count um Mr maraldo June 18th is there any meetings happening that Wednesday it's high school graduation it's high school graduation okay how about the 25th of Wednesday I don't have anything here on the I don't see anything on the calendar so maybe we do the 25th then that Wednesday sure what time are there meetings seven okay so seven right yeah perfect perfect so to do the 25th that it works for you councilwoman July um 25th right oh yeah July 31st right July 31st I would caution the summer um I would would maybe take a break July August and not do one holiday you know people taking vacation we'll probably want to go on vacation yeah I'm never taking vacation okay I'm just kidding everyone heard you it's recorded well you're gonna want a vacation after work in here resume in September okay um so September's a bit of a problem any holidays so I don't see a date on in September anything on the 17th that Wednesday not that I'm aware of now so Wednesday the 17th would be a good way okay okay or we could do that Thursday the 18th which is zoning board meeting at 8 let's keep actually actually actually the 18th is good no no it's not because if we do six to seven and what to for whoever's the zoning board uh lead is on um zoning there is no zoning planning all right so let's keep it on the 18 on the 18th sure and then for October the 30th I would day before Halloween yeah there's so many holidays are you guys okay with the day before Halloween I'm okay I'm good I I really wouldn't want to lose it I'm just kidding I know you are okay the 30th it is that November 20th same thing zoning board only okay and the 19 then oh wait no we said yes right okay I'm start we don't have a z connection and um the question is should we canceled for December I would the Jewish to many holidays yeah no one's coming Hi and then the ABC yeah okay so just I'm just gonna thec meetings are for what purpose the the hearings right the hearing charge for the charges yes okay so um I know that there is a a a matter pending that is everybody is concerned about um so can we schedule it for Thursday the 9th okay so here for this month yes okay so here here's um the situation with that when we schedule the meetings we have to have the attorneys have to be available Witnesses police officers um a lot who else both Dan legal council post there's prosecution Council caner right right so we have to make sure everybody's schedules coordinate it's very hard to get that together there's no way they're going to get it together by the night so do you want should we give you a couple Thursdays then that we that night seem to work best for everybody the Thursdays um like the 16th you did you have the 16th and the 23rd I don't even think I know you sent the email 23rd twice but it was the 16th and the 23rd um January no I was thinking for January well then if if the 9th is too soon how is the 15th it it's too soon the 15th is too soon yeah to coordinate all those people can we do can we do the 23d and the 30th well the 30th you have your open hours right after that we'll do it later the ABC will come later sure s o'clock so the 23rd and the 30th okay 23rd um I have an appointment I won't be able to get here until 6:30 well I have um I I would have to get on virtually anyway until 7 so you can't yeah you can't do that virtually well can you call me it can someone call him dial me in can we start at seven why can't I listen virtually I don't understand I'd like to hear from legal yeah I think it can be done virtually maybe say but they're gonna have videos I'm not asking it's only for 30 minutes because I have physical therapy okay so should we start later then I mean I don't I don't think it makes sense I can just listen in while in physical therapy someone can call me and I can just here that's fine and if they have a video we'll ask them to wait yeah you have to watch it afterwards a video yeah okay so I don't want to delay all the view for half hour so okay and I'm sorry was that for the 23rd you said yeah 23rd ABC so when are you going to schedule it for 6m 5:30 I can't get here till 6:30 6:30 so 6:30 6:30 yeah okay and if for whatever reason Reon they can't coordinate everything I'll of course let you know and then this will be at 7 right yeah that's January January yes but this case requires more than two meetings right we should like 10 a lot three years worth of violations yeah can we do a weekend would it make sense to do a weekend yeah you have to get everybody in here they wouldn't rather come in early in the morning on a weekend she can't do well we could do Sunday I'm not doing a Sunday morning don't forget the defense you're not going to get people on Sunday to have their attorney so if their attorney says I'm not available on weekends that's it our attorneys may be willing to do it theirs may not got it true okay can I just ask a question about the pending ABC meeting when I was on it last time most of those were taken care of through negotiation and settlements are we to that point with this specific case no okay okay thank you so we schedule eight more I guess right I mean we need more than two you can't do Mondays right Mondays can't do any Mondays or Tuesdays could we do the Wednesday the 22nd I I could if you guys don't mind back and then we could do two days in a row maybe long days and get it we don't have a a council meeting on Tuesday yeah the 29th wait let's stick on 22nd does 202 work for everyone's no it works for me if we can do 6:30 I can get on virtually for 30 minutes with one of you on one of your phones or we can do seven does it work for everybody else why don't we give a bunch of dates because even though we give the date they they the the other side be available okay we have to make sure we're available right so what time do we say on the 22nd 63030 63 okay 630 22 you want to start with these three days I would give them more while we're here we might as well okay and then the 29th nope it's the Chinese New Year yeah that's Chinese New Year so that's it for January at February the 6th February 6th I'm available Fe 6 yeah that works for me at 6:30 yeah now we're keeping into budget season for budget meeting well what may be easier is like we have enough to get started and then we could see how fast are with us we'll be able to coordinate little easier do that yeah that's a good idea we vote on those charges and then move on to the next set of charges or do we have to go through all six year 100 however many charges there are and then vote how does that work they're probably going to put on individual cases different you know what happened this night what happened that night so depending on how much time is available during that evening how far they get yeah this one's complicated really you know my my My worry is that we're sitting through all these meetings and then now we have to take a break for Budget meetings and then we're not going to remember what we discussed over a month or two ago well we could discuss that which I think we started having a conversation the last time we started this with the first meeting with the attorney and then he could advise us that night and then we can move forward that night okay all right all right so let's uh let's close off on ABC for now and uh Madam clerk you can just report back to us on absolutely on your huge success we're hoping okay for your huge success okay sobody to vote on this or we did that um no we did not vote on the calendar we didn't vote on any of the calendar so um all right so is there a motion to approve the township council meeting I make a motion to approve the Town 2025 Township count meeting calendar okay um second Michelle second okay councilwoman celino yes councilwoman gber Mich councilwoman I'm sorry councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes okay motion carries um right so I move on to the next this l way the good right yes [Music] next public meeting for public meting that sounds good I I recall that they start with a roll call do we not the um you know the statement and then the roll call when we did the Pledge for that we did okay this is to inform the general public that this meeting is being held in compliance with Section Five of the open public meetings act chapter 231 Public Law 1975 the notice for this meeting was emailed to The Star Ledger in the West Orange Chronicle on December 11th 2024 councilwoman castelino present councilwoman gber Michael present councilman covia present councilwoman Ruden here councilwoman scorpa present all yours council president thank you uh I can see in the audience three well-dressed uh young men with ties on one of them is Mr Charles so he doesn't count but the other two with ties on is are those by any chance uh Mr Trimble and Mr Rivera uh the reason I asked is because I would like to go into hopefully a brief executive session that may involve uh one if not two of the attorneys who are here tonight I'd like to move in that we approve a an executive session for the purpose of discussing Personnel okay and uh I don't think it's on the agenda so it would have to be moved in a floor vote Mr Moon that means we have to have four that's correct four votes uh Madam Clerk is there a second to that Mo second thank you yeah I willor I'm sorry we're gonna take the vote yes please unless is there any discussion no okay councilwoman celino uh yes councilwoman gber Michel councilwoman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman scar yes okay the motion carries so we'll be going to an executive session okay we could down the down the wall yeah all right let me just this so we're hoping that this is going to be quite brief uh we'll we'll see if that plays out that way and uh apologies for all of those who would prefer to be speaking at public comment we will get back as soon as as soon as we can okay your backline thank you uh welcome back West Orange I apologize for the delay I also apologize for standing up I have some uh uh some physical problems that sometimes work out better when I'm standing I'm sure I'm sure Council woman camera Michael knows what I'm talking about so we are back from the executive session and what we'd like to do right now is to uh move to uh hire to retain Council for a possible Municipal officer removal for cause I that so we've got the motion we've got the second uh and would like to discuss it now if if anyone has Council put on the record that again while obviously you can take my comments with the grand Sal you want but the council as a legislative body does not have the authority to retain professionals that's the negotiate terms and things like that that's an executive function the mayor that's the litigation that's been involved with are you speaking into the mic because I can barely hear you so just okay great thank you I'm sorry to interrupt you scen it's going right okay going soon okay so the council does not have thank you is trying to engage an executive function by hiring and Contracting with professional that's an executive function that's generally that's the mayor's purview so take that as can I make a comment uh yes but I I just want to hold on to that Council celino please so so Mr Moon um when we hired the last attorney or the council hired the last attorney we were able to do so wasn't done through the administration that was done through the council I believe it it was also done with the consent of the administration through the head of the legal department at that time AB yeah I don't recall the exact process just please one at a time please yeah I I didn't call the I don't again I I can't comment because I I don't remember how exactly went through but I know we met in private and then we came out uh in public like we're we are now now and made a motion and hire the attorney yeah my understanding was that the legal the legal department basically allowed basically gave the authority to because of the litigation that was pending that the council needed representation so they authorize the council to retain their okay so you're not so you're recommending that we don't do this I'm recommending I'm basically but that's only recommendation we could still make a motion absolutely sure it's over over the advice okay phly noted and Mr moon what would what would you say can you hear this while I'm standing up so so I I make specific reference to I believe members of the council are are aware of the precedent that was set on the sharp James mayor case where the city council of uh New York tried to obtain their own private Council uh basically the ruling in that case was that the hiring professionals as I said is an executive function and while the legislative body which was the count city council at that time has advice and consent Authority it does not authorize them to engage in negotiations to appoint uh whether it be professionals or um officials UHS so it occurs to me that that um if uh the previous hire was made through an approval or some sort of review process by the town attorney if you're here to represent the town attorney uh would that be something where you could just agree that that this is okay and we can move forward it have get to thetive brch which is my understanding was it was with the mayor authorized it through the legal ter through the legal council and that's how you got to hire um the Jova FR okay I'm just looking for uh some sort of compromise solution that that we can do this easily uh councilwoman gab Michel um I believe it's a conflict of interest for him to even give advice right now considering it's about that's fine you can my removal and I disagree with him that's not what happened one of time please we had the right and opportunity to hire our own Council and that's what we did it had nothing to do with the administration if I recall correctly so I think that it was a motion was made it was properly seconded and we should vote and proceed forward uh Mr moon were you involved with uh the hiring of Mr janova no oh okay so what you've heard is sort of secondhand would would it suffice since the uh the mayor McCartney is is sitting right behind you if we could just ask her if it would be okay with her if we moved ahead on this would that would that represent sufficient uh approval by the administration to take away your uh alleged objection my understanding is mean basically one there's a question of um that she has the ability basically put a pres especially especially if it's going to be they can't hear Bill lists are approved by the council wait wait wait wait wait please go on Mr Mo speak in your mic Mr yes but the agreement the proposed retention has to come from the executive department You can disagree with me that's fine I'm telling you right now there's president case law on if you don't believe me I understand that you've made it clear you don't believe so go ahead I will say this but I will tell you that it's going to be subject to challenge andp there's already litigation going on we all know this so I can tell you that what the position is and what president say but I I I've I've been I've been I've been even though I've only been involved for the last couple of months coming to the meetings I know that the council's going to do what the council wants to do whether or not I advise against it or not so that's so he's on the record hold on a second okay he could be on the record so so Mr moon it's it's it's nothing personal it's just that you are a member of Mr trank's firm and and uh uh and what I'm trying to do is trying to figure out if there is some solution a quick solution uh that would allow us to move forward on this without running up any more legal bills and I thought when you said that that it is an executive uh function under the fauler act under our form of government uh but wouldn't it be uh easy if we just asked uh uh the mayor if she's okay with this and then we can move forward would that be I one I don't believe that adding this as a last minute addition to the council appropriate and if she wants to basically proceed with it I believe you can I don't believe that appropriate to do it without with on this notice if you want to put it up through the new business process that was established for the council that could be a way to do it but ultimately the mayor has to sign off on it she's any agreement any retention agreement that's why the mayor has to sign all agreements that the con has entered into um so that's a procedure I would recommend doing okay and and this is just I'm I'm trying to do this uh with the understanding hopefully that everybody understands that we reserve our rights you know to take uh additional steps but what I'm trying to do is find a solution right now that would fit this uh would it be in your opinion would it be appropriate for us to ask uh the mayor if she wants to authorize this us to go forward right now but again you know okay I know I'm I'm getting some uh feedback up here that we should just vote on it and again what I'm trying to do we are we are running up uh legal bills that I am desperate to try to avoid at at all cost and still be able to do what we think is right for the township so uh I'm I'm I'm open to whatever anybody else wants to comment on but maybe the way to move forward is to just is to just do it and and see what happens please yeah we could certainly invite them up there there okay he shouldn't be giving us advice okay uh councilwoman did you have something to say uh so yes so I'm a big proponent from when this off first started that both sides the council and the administration could come to a resolution uh I'm not going to be supporting this for for that reason because I did not support the the first attorney that cost his $80,000 so far um however I'm I'm still going to ask both U my colleagues and the administration I think maybe we should put a resolution and go through the procedure that we've been following to have it on the next council meeting and hope within the next two weeks that you could resolve this the mayor could resolve this with my colleagues by then that that's my ask for all involved and and um again I'm just putting it out there on the record I'm you know I I hope that this could be resolved I it's just we have so much work to do this year to move forward in this manner I say start the new year get this resolved and um and I'm again I'm asking both sides I'm not blaming one or the other but I'm asking everyone to work together for the sake of the township to resolve this issue without having to spend another nickel on attorney I if I could Mr Rivera you are retained by uh the township so you're on the clock more or less is is this something that you can give us some advice on because you've you've been involved with this before I know uh Mr Trimble has been involved in this and but he is not uh retained so I'm not even sure we should uh ask his so thank you um my role here is as your labor and employment Council if there's an issue with a conflict you have conflict Council for the township that would be the appropriate entity to give you advice on an issue where your council's conflicted so in my purview I just handle your labor employment needs aining on on whether it's appropriate for this you you as a body to vote on this issue is outside of what my perview is and what I'm hired for are there any other questions from Mr Rivero uh yes Mr rera I was going to ask can we ask Mr troli can we ask because Mr Rivera can't comment Mr conflict from Mr Moon I think we should ask Mr trollei and I think you as council president have a right to ask him to come up and speak and I think he wants to say something with respect councilwoman because one I am not retained and two because the resolution involves me personally I am not in a position to be able to offer you legal advice on that particular question thank you Mr tribley uh I'm just going to going to throw this out to to the mayor and don't want to put you in a in a difficult spot but if it's if it's a situation where you feel like uh you would allow this to move forward and uh save us perhaps a lot of Heartache uh if if you want to do that now we we'd love for you to come up and uh or or give us that advice um and if and if you if you don't feel comfortable doing it certainly understand but uh just trying to find a short shortcut to all this thank you so you may have lost faith and confidence in our legal department I have not and I am going with the legal determination from our legal department and I just have to say how disappointed I am um because I did want to come up and commend everyone uh I actually had a prepared statement about beginning the new year and taking a moment to welcome everyone being sworn in this evening to thank R for and Tammy Williams for their years of service and I wanted to thank you all for being able to meet with you during the holiday season be to use your word to work on collaborating through challenges that we face and to improve and enhance our Public Service responsibilities so this whole step that you're taking right now overshadows all of that because there are so many major projects on our Horizon right now just like Rock Spring we just met the administration I just met with d to wrap up that Green Acres application which is Major putting 130 acres in we have the target investment at the West Orange Plaza we have the the proposed black inventures history museum at Mayfair Farms we have the vision zero action plan we need a task force put in place and the economic impact of the movie production studios in our downtown we closed out 2024 with many of our holiday traditions the historic trolley tours at downtown Main Street Corridor the community spirited Christmas tree lighting and Santa lighting the manur lighting and even the Palestinian United Nations International Day of solidarity cultural event and I do apologize and regret that pal to the Palestinian and Muslim residents and their allies for removing that post and I assure you that that would never happen again uh mayor McCartney I'm gonna finish my state mayor McCartney will be moving to public we'll be moving to public comment we asked you to do one thing and if you can't do that we stand keeping these holiday TR enjoyable fun and safe for allun to share your positive energy and your concerns with the administration and the council so we can make the most informed decisions that I believe will make the town a vibrant inclusive arriving place for all of us to live so no I am going with the decision um the executive order of this executive decision of our legal department uh Madame clerk I want to add the resolution number uh so that we can take a vote I don't know what is it 25 26 oh sorry 24 2 the next resolution number would be 2425 let's stick let's stick with 25 just to be safe please if you wouldn't mind all right but we do that it's it's the next resolution number is 24 okay I just want to associate a resolution number with this before we take a vote so it's 24 okay 24-25 okay the cap council president I'm sorry yes I'm just want to go over this so that people have a little bit better idea of what we're doing we're looking to hire uh Steven Trimble uh as Council for a possible municipal office officer removal for cause the uh uh resolution uh describes him and the services that he's going to do which is to evaluate whether uh we have uh the potential to move forward with a removal with uh for cause uh with a municipal officer the uh compensation is fixed as not to exceed the amount of $7,499 any expenditure behind that amount requires Council approval uh and the uh agreement that's associated with it has essentially the same terms and uh we've gone into executive decision uh excuse me executive session to discuss this we've come out is there any other discussion that we want to make uh council members before we take a vote not at this time okay Madam cler if you could take the route please and this is to add 24-25 correct that's right councilwoman celino to add the no representation on on Mr trolley's professionalism he's outstanding attorney but no sir councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes the motion carries thank you excuse me just a second okay uh let's move on to uh terribly delayed public comment please Madam clerk okay so yeah you you know the okay Podium pardon uh I think I think we're going to leave the podium here for now not because I want to but because I want to minimize the disruption okay that we've already had this evening where would you put it come back up here so we are uh we are open for uh public comment usually uh our representative from the county executive uh speaks first but please take it away uh thank you council president um before I begin I want to congratulate uh I want to congratulate you and uh councilwoman Ruden and of course uh councilwoman celino on our reelection and I wish the entire Council um all the best in uh for the new year and the challenges uh and the accomplishments that you will likely face I'm sorry sorry for the delay technical issues of course I want to wish everyone a Happy New Year for 2025 um you may have noticed that our flag is uh at half staff and that is of course uh for the passing of a president a former president Carter uh the flag will be at half staff for a period of 30 days and uh this Thursday is actually a national day of morning for former President Carter um this Thursday also uh 6:00 to 8:00 p.m. uh mayor's o Open Office hours here in town hall uh come in and uh meet with the mayor and of course no appointment is ever necessary uh we had a rabies vac uh vaccination clinic on uh Saturday and if you missed it we also have one coming up uh Wednesday January 10th 3: to 4:00 p.m. at fire station number 4 on Pleasant Valley way uh of course the holidays now are in the rear view mirror and the next step is to discard all the Christmas trees and the Christmas tree collection uh has already started uh no plastic wraps no decorations no tinsel I'm not sure anyone even uses tinsil anymore but uh all the details are on website West orange.org um also uh there's been a change to for Jitney Riders West Orange Jitney Riders there's been a change to the rider schedule and this is due uh not because uh Township wanted to make changes but because we had to uh uh uh uh amend our schedule due to the recent changes in the train schedule for New Jersey trans uh Transit these changes have gone into will go into effect have gone into effect today uh this is too length for you to go into but this is posted on our website as well are all the roots uh posted on our website these are clickable links and uh are accessible from our website uh the mayor asked me to mention that West Orange mayor's winter Wellness campaign to save the date January 26th uh there will be uh several free screenings with the mobile unit uh the details will be announced shortly and of course uh this time of year is the West Orange Film Festival uh now in its 19th year uh it's from uh Sundays at 2m from the 12th January 12th to March 2nd with the exception of Super Bowl Sunday there's certainly no competing with that uh these will be posted on our website individual um movies uh the first one uh is this Sunday January 12 2m uh family plot uh by director Alfred Hitchcock and if you ever seen any Alfred Hitchcock films a little fun fact so to speak is that Alfred Hitchcock always makes a cameo appearance in front of the camera so come on out and support details are at uh uh West Orange arts.org um also the Gen lit inter intergenerational reading program uh the introductory session is on Friday January 10th at the cat Center uh and uh to pre-register please contact Noelia Perez this information is also on our website uh as I think was mentioned we had the West Orange Town Hall annual Memorial lighting a manora lighting excuse me on December 26th in uh the weather a corop cooperated a little cold but we had a we had a great turnout um you know it's a good time to remind everyone the windows are all closed our houses are buttoned up uh now is a good time uh to check your carbon monoxide alarms uh you know test the alarms replace the batteries uh call the fire department if uh if the alarm goes off and open the windows immediately also I wanted to mention I noticed that uh people seem to be disregarding ing the uh the box and I don't think that they understand the meaning of it and that's please don't block the box it's intended to keep traffic flowing these are in many neighboring towns but we have three here in West St of course we have one here in front of Mount Pleasant Avenue a town hall in front of aspect on Prospect Avenue and in front of uh congregation a a BJ and D near the Hooper Avenue intersection on Pleasant Valley way so that means that you are not allowed to enter the Box the Box must be kept open uh to allow traffic to exit and keep traffic flowing um also uh anytime there's uh any issues with water main brakes and West Orange of course we post the information and uh try to keep the public up to date on any road closures or anything of that nature relating to uh uh water main brakes but uh at at our website you can sign up at West star.org and uh for code red to receive alerts directly from New Jersey American water and uh they will provide you with the latest updates boiled water advisories and other useful information of course the uh we will do that as well but they perhaps could do it a little faster um also uh I have and I gave each one of the council members uh we recently installed some um floor plans as you enter town hall and just last week I developed this booklet uh that will uh be available to anybody coming into town hall and it's basically to town hall it has the uh the building department hours when they're closed our regular hours and it has a floor plan of each floor so will help our residents uh hopefully help our residents find out where they're going to and um one thing I should point out many people come into this building uh looking where they can pay their parking tickets and of course they're in the wrong building and we direct them to the police department and uh there's no public comment from the zoom audience that's been in place for a believe over a year now but you can contact all Township council members via email at Council weststar.org and uh at this time I'd like to call up our executive director from the downtown Alliance Megan bril to uh make a few brief announcements before Mr py comes up they just pushed the button thank you let hope the slides work this time they was I just hit the green thing hi everybody I'm Megan BR with the downtown Alliance um I'm going to be real quick I know it's h getting late in the night uh we wrapped up nor room on uh on Monday we ended up having 30 businesses participate and uh we got a bunch of people finding out uh different spots downtown and um oh that's the wrong slide Joe that's what you said that was last year's slide I'm sorry um anyway most of those businesses are still on this year's SL go to the next one what we wanted to uh provide in in I guess on Forefront of our budget presentation that's going to happen at the end of the month was a little bit of stat I have a uh a code that y also should be downloading for uh the app the downtown website and the township website we um pulled up growth on the app we have average users of 70 Joe you're going to love the stats that we have we didn't have stats like Facebook didn't give you good stats the last time you asked me all kinds of questions about this and now between Google analytics our Placer data which you're going to love and um and the mobile app we have some really good uh stats for you so we have 29,000 views on pages it's a 6% uh increase in users and a six times the amount of people using the app since we launched um so those are like really important stats you can scan the QR code you can go on town website or our website and the Chamber website and uh and get the app and downloaded there's tons of information in there looks like ah and um Restaurant Week is coming so we uh we have a lot of holidays that we were trying to stay away from we wanted kids to be in school we wanted parents not be on vacation and we didn't want there to be any uh restrictive holidays in between so we picked March 30th and April 6th I did run this past the PRC and they're fine with that date we're going to play a little game similar to what we do with Norm everybody that eats out breakfast lunch or dinner in any of the restaurants that are participating they send us a screenshot or an email with a receipt and they'll be entered in a raffle so we're going to keep the people uh coming the benefit of restaurant week is it benefits the whole town not just downtown downtown and the PRC we administer it but it really does benefit every every restaurant that's in the town and we have a dedicated website for it so the uh search engine optimization of each individual business gets increased because of the access that they have on the website and then all the chatter that we do surrounding it so we're hitting the ground run in early next week with signing up restaurants and uh and watch our social media and you'll see all kinds of uh updates on the restaurants and businesses that are participating if you're not a restaurant you can also be a sponsor so we're going to see that too so we tried to hit make sure that every business in town could participate in a restaurant week if you have any questions nope I got everything thank you so much and welcome thank you thank you hi Anthony py representing County Executive Joe def fenzo just want to wish everyone a a happy New Year uh congratulations to the three council members who were elected this year look forward to working with um all five of you um and if there's anything any questions you have about as County you know you can always reach out to me um just a short report uh turtleback Zoo finished uh 2024 with record not record attendance there's the second highest attendance in our history that's at 96571 visitors uh I'm still waiting to get some results from our holiday lights with how many um non how much non-arable food coats and toys were collecting so I'll report that when I get that information uh and then this is the 18th year that we've been doing our deer management program uh it starts uh this uh Thursday in the hilltop reservation as you keep can see from the dates it goes to the end of uh February uh Thursday afternoons are for Hilltop reservation and um uh Tuesday afternoons are for South Mountain reservation um the two end dates for February 11th and 18th are just in case of inclement weather or makeup days so it's we may or may not use those um and just for the public the reservations are closed on the days that the um program takes place uh South Mountain reservation for example however uh Cherry Lane remains open um turtleback Zoo Cody Arena mcloons remains open it's just all the parking lots that will be closed and the reservation will be closed uh and if you have any questions there's the uh phone number at the bottom 973 621 4400 thank you yes I do have a question um I think it's horrendous that this county is killing deer and I would like to know how we can stop it from happening in West Orange I I cannot provide an answer for that for you that for that question tonight but I can definitely follow up with and I would like to know if it's possible to get a moratorium for this year right away uh again I have to get back to you on that thank you so much thank you Mr we look forward to your triumphant return thank you so uh Mr Fagan is there anybody else that needs to speak uh on your agenda no okay great thank you so we're uh now going to open up uh public comment uh if you could just raise your hand and be recognized and just sort of move down to the front to try to save time uh Council councilman uh oh I'm sorry councilman R please thank you council president Bo wetherford former councilman West Orange resident uh want to First congratulate um the uh two new council members and returning council member calino I wish uh the three of you and actually all five of you uh a very successful uh term uh I was glad to see the spirit of camaraderie uh in the early portion of the meeting and I hope that there is a way to continue to build on that want to highlight a few things uh first um I want to encourage this Council to continue some of the work that was begun uh in the prior Council specifically with regard to the forensic audit um as you know uh that was uh there was work done to get the forensic AIT you will be presented uh with some options to choose a an AUD uh I do hope and and encourage you to continue moving in that direction uh even if there was Full Faith and confidence in the former CFO whenever you have someone serve in the role that long um it is prudent to have an audit done and in this case we already know that at least on one occasion or at least with one vendor uh payments were made to that vendor without Council approval and we actually know that and have the documentation of that by one of the newly elected council members Council woman uh Ruden uh second I would like to just comment on uh Mr moons uh and the mayor's uh responses with regard to your um request for the new resolution 24-25 um the code allows for removal for cause of any officer if what Mr moon and the mayor are are asserting here tonight was true it would make removing an officer impossible if the mayor did not want it if the mayor has to approve the mechanism by which you go through to get the advice you need in order to make an informed decision about that removal and the mayor does not want that officer removed then they would refuse to give you the authority keeping you from being able to remove someone that is a circular argument it makes absolutely no sense uh I find it offensive actually to your intelligence as well as the intelligence of uh everyday West Orange residents to think that the mayor would have to approve the ability for you to remove an officer for cause when there is already a code that clearly defines it uh and I do hope you will P pursue that uh because as you know and I know and I've asserted and and uh as your actions have demonstrated tonight there is cause uh and it is the right thing to do for the residents of West Orange uh last thing uh approximately 3:00 this afternoon I sent an email to council I know some of you received it I imagine some of you did not I know you're new and you may not get everything right away uh but that email was with regard to our municipal clerk Karen Carnival um as you all know I was illegally held off the ballot uh for re-election last fall uh 34 of the 64 petitions that Karen Carnival rejected were of duly uh legitimately uh registered voters in West Orange more than half of the petitions she rejected were of registered voters who live in West Orange and based on her own notes which I provided to each of you today she knew that the system with which she used to look up those registered voters told her that they were registered by her own notes on those rejected petitions 23 of them 11 petitions were rejected because the clerk deemed them to be not registered voters in West Orange when in fact they were so of the 30 petitions she rejected as non-registered voters 11 of them were in fact registered of the 34 petitions she rejected for other various reasons 23 of them should not have been rejected at all because they were legitimate registered voters in West Orange and the letter that I provided to you today shows that The Cure period for me and me only in the entire history of her tenure as a clerk was precluded foreclosed I was not allowed because my submit my petition packet was deemed fatally deficient you will see that in the letter I was deemed to be ineligible to be on the ballot you will see that in the letter that is a third deegree felony it is election fraud and I am hopeful that you will evaluate that information make any request that you might of me I will provide and work with you to the full extent that I can uh to uh Rectify this situation by having the appropriate authorities investigated for the crime that it is may God have mercy on you want to finally say councilman Rutherford I understand your desire to do this but I ask you and I will enforce this that you refrain from making criminal allegations against anyone outside of a courtroom well this is public comment I'm a member of the public and I'm allowed to if she would like to sue me for that or anyone else would they're they're entitled to um the clock is not running I don't know if that's an error or not oh your time's up then because it was five minutes 2:35 2:35 it it started at 2:35 can't get it 2:35 I it's it started at 2:35 which would mean it would be 2:25 left but that's fine because I'm almost done if her position is that she did not reject these petitions these voters registered voters intentionally then she must admit that she was negligent and failed to do her job properly either way it is a breach of her Duty it is a failure on her part it is a level of negligence that should not be tolerated and I respect for and humbly ask the council to do your homework look at what was presented to you review whatever the legal department will send back and make your own determination whether or not to support elevating this to the state attorney general and the Federal Department of Justice thank you very much is there anyone else who'd like to speak please come up just state your name and address please and yeah you have five minutes Darren nurse West Orange resident so um the one thing I'm just here to speak about is you know congratulations to everyone for their election and reelection and things like that but what I want everyone to keep in mind is the forward progress that we must do as a t um I hear you speak proficiently about doing what's best for the residents I also hear things spoken about where some people may not be in favor of the project that's coming as far as considered with the movie studio with that being said that is one of the biggest things that this town is needed because of what it supplies right um also hear a speech about also hear a spiel about people speaking on behalf of you know pilate programs being given up unless we can properly inform the town and the town residents of what a pilot program consists of and how it can be benefit official and ways it could be beneficial I don't think it's best to speak about it in a sense of fear right because you give that fear out and people begin to believe that everything is going to be at a loss wests is in a unique position right at this time based upon other times where people do find it a convenient to move into right and they do like what they see so what we need to do as town we need to build this up continue with the momentum but we do not need to stop the progress of all the other things that are taking place if you don't have a clear solution as to what you're going against then I don't think you should speak against that just yet and until you can present something picturesque to the town where they could follow through with the residents and the residents can agree upon then that's where we should be at and that's just my comment be careful about what you say be careful about how you work because we all are watching and as you can see there isn't many people here and there's a reason for that and the thing is we need to fill this town hall with more people from the town so they can all speak their mind so that's just what I want to say I don't know if Fu but thank you thank you please Miss Bennett you will be next Miss Bennett you'll be next Dr Robert hson 10 Gaston Street on November 5th 2024 this town experienced a seismic event An Occurrence and I hope our historian and other Town leaders will make mention of this frequently because we made history that night Brent Scott her campaign manager and her team met and couldn't believe that the votes for her on November 5th were R 11,000 that is historic as far as my research is conducted uh no other person in the town's history has received that many votes so what does that mean this is a person who was running for for the first time for public office so it meant that the voters of West Orange despite her frequent campaigning and incredibly hard work were challenging her to do what they have been asking for for many years we need significant change in the town now in my academic research as a doctoral candidate and a doctorate uh my Fields have been organizational Theory and Leadership and my favorite person who has written about leadership is a man by the name of James McGregor Burns deceased former professor of history at Williams College in Massachusetts he wrote a book ironically called leadership and it is the seminal book as far as I'm concerned about the topic and he mentions two types of leadership transactional and [Music] transformational in the first he says transform transactional leadership is something like this I do something for you you do something for me quit proquote and he says we all engage in that at times but he said the greater of the two is transactional leadership because that leadership raises ourselves and others to a higher Mar moral responsibility and greater productivity as a result and he warned against too much transactional leadership which always fails eventually because that style of leadership I will do for you if you do for me increases the possibility of abuse of power and abuse of authority and abuse use of money does that sound familiar and so I urge the new Council congratulations to all that we really look at that notion of transactional leadership it is time that the citizens of West Orange can look at all of us and all of you and say those people are leading us to a greater effort and a greater productivity so that all citizens are treated equally now just to end I have been on the other end of transactional leadership in town since 2003 I have experienced at least a dozen times when I have either been involved with or contacted the council about serious matters in town and I have never received one response since 2003 we've got to change that and I think the fact that you're looking at Town Hall meetings with the council and others other ways for people to express themselves all the better thank you good evening uh Michaela Bennett Old Indian Road welcome to the council councilwoman Ruden welcome back councilwoman castelino and it gives me great pleasure council president to apologize to you and tell you how happy I am that I was wrong and welcome back to the council but that's not why I stood up figured I could do that privately but wanted to do it publicly I stood up because two attorneys in the room who have left I think it's Mr Rivera and troli Mr Rivera told you conflict counsel is who you need to give you advice conflict Council meaning in his opinion there's a conflict of interest the other attorney Mr troli told you he's not retained and it would be inappropriate of him to Pro provide you with any advice because of his interest in the outcome Mr Moon works for Mr trck Mr moon is an attorney he understands I'm quite certain the rules of professional conduct around conflicts of interest so as a New Jersey attorney I'm shocked that an attorney with a conflict of interest would attempt to provide advice shocked you have every right to counsel unconflicted counsel you have every right to receive advice from unconflicted counsel and any attempts to not provide you with what you're entitled to so that you can make informed decisions that have legal ramifications not only on the council but for this community you are entitled to that legal advice now I don't know why a mayor would get up and talk about everything but what you asked filibuster I don't know I don't know suggesting that you're not being collabor ative is nuts walking out unbelievable but the bottom line is Mr Moon works for a firm with the name Tren I'll Venture a guess that your executive session had something to do with one of the people in that firm and so therefore he really shouldn't be rendering any opinions or giving any advice for fear that it might be directly related to a financial interest of his own thank you thank you is there anyone else who'd like to speak at public comment please just give us your name and address please going Lincoln Avenue I'd like to congratulate uh Joyce Ruden billc for uh being the new members and it was a ground swell of uh of uh support in the town and I campaigned for both and um I was really touched by the the older people the elderly people here who just said they really need change they can hardly afford living here and the whole idea of taxes stabilizing or even they couldn't believe it may be possible even to go lower May been uh but whatever that's the biggest issue that I saw and uh I just researched this Boulder Colorado they've lowered their taxes I mean there's certain you can lower taxes so this is this is something that could be had um um about the deer hunt you know I mean it's it's pretty upsetting um I don't think there are all that many deer in the in the reservations I hike these areas and uh so I hope there could be something done I I I a second choice written on this and also um I've been I've been walking behind U cresmont Country Club which was bought by the town which was terrific now it's owned by the town um there has been a history of uh bow Hunters going there and I hope the police department um could look into it whether that tradition is continuing because now it's owned by the town I don't think these bow Hunters are allowed to to hunt anymore there's no no hunting uh signage but maybe that could be uh put there to remind them that this is uh owned by the town and there's no hunting it's not a a reservation and the only way you can really kill the deer there would be to um go in the woods they don't really congregate in a uh too often on the golf course they really go in the woods so if cresmont wanted to hunt the deer um and they contracted because it's private area people to kill the deer they would have to go into town property and kill them inside the woods and these deer are extremely skittish I can't get close to them now I think there was a hunt this fall and uh it's sort of in IND indicative that there there was a hunt and that they they are scared of getting killed and the numbers are a little down and I saw a few turkeys but you know the turkeys used to be a lot more numerous and going to trees um please look into the contracts for trees um cutting down the trees planting the trees I think we could be overpaying in in in many ways either labor or just the contract overall uh even uh once the trees are cut down the tree cutters may be making money mulching the trees and and I think it's a property of the town where the multure is I mean there's certain areas that could be looked into zeroed in and uh to to lower the contract prices and to and to even charge more for the mulching um that's really I running late so I better stop thank you thank you anyone else like to speak seeing no one else wanting to speak Let's uh close public comment and make it available uh for responses from up here I'd like to start in alphabetical order if that's possible with uh councilwoman castelino sure thank you council president and congratulations and uh welcome back to the days uh and congratulations to our new newest colleague as well you done an outstanding job uh and I look forward to working with you um thank thank you to everyone who came down this evening and for uh your kind words for for me as well I appreciate that uh let me start with Mr py I just want to thank you and the county executive I took my uh granddaughter to the zoo last week right before New Year's and I can't even begin to tell you just what a joyous time we had and just being so proud from the township listening to other patrons that evening uh talk talk about you know what a great place to be and just really proud and it's part of our visitation um uh uh platform that we have trying to take all these great attractions that we have here in the township and not just coming to the zoo but also going to frequent our business owners whether they stop at a store they get gas they go out to dinner and a lot of them do do that um and we getting feedback we're teaching our restaurant owners to ask questions see when they see a new Patron what where they're coming from and I know uh people from the zoo do visit chitchat uh Mama dags and other restaurants in the area so uh thank you as always for your help and support uh in ating our uh visitation grants that we've been receiving tourism grants this past year so outstanding work with the county executive and we appreciate that um downtown Alliance U Miss BR and and Mr nurse you're on on our board um you know thank you for coming down this evening and you know we have some great events this year I just mentioned restaurant week and the benefits from it but uh just a great uh holiday season I also want to thank the Department of Public Works uh and our police and firefighters for helping us out through all of these events and it was just a great holiday season especially DPW we had some snow on the ground Christmas Eve and uh just appreciate all of that but thank you for your effort this year and I appreciate my colleagues for having me stay on my committees um so I could we could move forward with some great events and bring some great attention to our business business is here in the township because the focus needs to be on them our residents our taxpayers this year uh I made my statement earlier um about why I did not support moving forward um with more litigation and um you know really want to spend this year on focusing on our our businesses our residents and moving forward I appreciate I get a chance earlier I'm going to throw throw it out there now but I appreciate apprciate all my supporters uh who uh had faith and re-elected me to my seat everyone who came out and worked for me and especially my husband who was here this evening for uh for putting up with me my yeah your spouse oh there she is hi Claire conat congratulations um but yeah you know this this I you know takes a lot of time from our families as you heard from our calendar this evening so I really appreciate uh my family's support in moving forward it's a great town we live in I am uh going to work hard to make sure that um we all collaborate and work together and uh try to get out of this uh conflict that we've had um recently and I look forward to a great year thank you council president thank you councilwoman uh Council G Michael please good evening everyone I am going to make my remarks very brief because it's already 9:18 and is the Orthodox Christmas Eve I have to be at church at 9:30 which I'm clearly not going to make probably till now 10 o'clock um because I have to at least get through the resolutions and and ordinances I won't be here I'm sorry for uh uh new business um and my son's in the back who's waiting to go to church with me so um and it's his birthday tomorrow he'll be 12 he's my Christmas baby um so the only thing I'm going to mention is that on Wednesday January 15th uh the West AR human relations commission is sponsoring the um Dr Martin Luther King Jr 13th annual celebration uh in quotes Mission possible protecting freedom justice and democracy in the spirit of nonviolence 365 there'll be music performances Awards light Refreshments it's um from 6:00 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. doors open at 5:30 at the Liberty Middle School auditorium and guest speaker is Essex County Sheriff Amir Jones you can contact HRC at HRC West orange.org and send them an email and I want to thank everyone who came here tonight and spoke and gave their comments and to those of you watching um happy New Year to everyone and thank you that's it thank you councilwoman councilwoman Ruden please good evening West Orange and to those who are at home on Zoom I will also try and be very very brief um councilman Rutherford I hear you um and um I can promise you that we will follow up on so many of the Great initiatives that you started in this town and will not allow anything that is untour to happen um um Dr hson thank you for your wisdom and on on transformational versus transactional things are going to change we are definitely going to be transformational in West Orange and it's it's already started tonight um conflict Council from um Miss Bennett thank you always for your great legal advice um and um we have a right to unconflicted council and we have the right to do things better for ourselves as a Town Council and for the community and we will make sure that that happens um Mr con cresmont I completely share your concerns I will do my best to follow up um the area was purchased without any due diligence um both in terms of contamination and in terms of the fact that I have visually seen that hunting is going on and we have to um alert the Police who are here tonight um that hunting is going on in our in our open space land and um that that cannot happen I'm also going to be following up as you suggested on the contracts for the trees which are high and everywhere you go in town you see trees coming down by these uh contracted companies um I also have questions about that so thank you all for speaking tonight and uh I really you know please come out speak out join us at our I'm going to call it our Council coffees um and and be part of this town and help us to help you and help and you also help us to make this a better West Orange thank you Council councilwoman Scarpa thank you um Bill Rutherford uh thank you so much for all the contributions you've made for our town I've always um enjoyed working with you and I will look for at the materials that you've sent us um I hope that you will continue to help us make West Orange all that she be um to um Lawrence thank you for your support of my colleague um councilwoman Ruden um as you are realize since you campaigned with her it was the collaborative leadership of so many people that made it happen and we are so thrilled to have her with us she has been someone who's been an advocate for all of the right things in our town for decades and um I'm looking forward to working with her and um Darren uh I think you really hit on something here I agree with you that our taxpayers need to understand the financial implications of pilot and we have a lot of smart business people in this town with a lot of accounts we need to get them out here we need to have them understand these business deals that we're doing I'm not an advocate of pilot I do understand the financial implications that they have had for a Township for a long time and it's about time that the smart people in our town come out and start talking to us I hope as we have our coffee meetings uh you will get your neighbors to come out and to learn about What's happen happening in our town and how it affects their health their well-being and their pocket um Dr h on leadership those of us who have run a business know exactly what you're talking about um I pride myself in never acting in a transactional manner with my colleagues even when I was approached to do so it's not as a business leader as someone who run a company it's not a way that I've ever operated in business and I certainly have not in my community you may know that I took no money when I ran my campaign I ran it with $1,500 of my own money because I am very concerned about the transactional nature of business we need mature public officials who know what they stand for and who are not afraid to come out and stand up for so thank you so much for making us aware of that and I think you are going to see some leadership here with this Council that is going to surprise you and it will be collaborative and it will not be transactional um Michaela Bennett thank you for your continued advice and support and I want to personally thank you for your support of councilman council president um uh be mindful of the power of language as you move forward and advocate for all of us you have a strong intelligent voice and I hope that you will use it in a manner that benefits us all so thank you and uh that's about it I think I think that's it thank you councilwoman Scarpa uh I just want to say thank you to everyone who came and spoke and I also wanted to acknowledge the excellent responses to uh public comment here tonight I'm going to move on uh without any further comments so that we can get through the rest of our agenda so thank you everyone okay it's time to review the consent agenda approval of minutes of previous meeting none report of Township officers none reading of petitions and Communications and bids none there is no bill list resolutions are any resolutions being pulled this evening I have question okay okay so the process we'll use going forward I've always been a little confused about this we're either going to ask questions or we're going to pull it or we're going to ignore it and it goes on the consent agenda is that is that the way we want to do it okay so yeah we kind of like pulling them like whoever wants them pull holds and then after we pull them then we go to the questions it seem to be working well whatever better like you would you would explain that I have a question on this so I'm not going to pull it because then it's you know it's still got it a consent then it'll be on consent but if you want don't want it on consent pull it that's the key word pull okay we GNA vote C want to you want to start so right um I don't have any on going to pull councilmen um but I do have questions so I'll leave that up to you you want me to give you my questions right now yeah just identify which ones uh so so I have questions on a e the goose control technology see Mr Pono okay okay so on there on G appointing uh Municipal housing lays on quick question about that and that's it the rest of my questions were answered already okay thank you uh councilman Ruden would you like to give us your give and goes please yes um I would like to pull uh 5-25 7-25 9-25 um question on 15-25 pull 16-25 pull 17-25 pull 18-25 pull 20-25 and pull 23-25 do we want to are you gonna total them all up at the end okay okay 10 10-25 no okay I'll pull 10-25 yes is that it yeah that's it um does anyone know what happened in Council she left night no no her phone's here computer's here Sor thank you so much we were looking for you yes we sent out an okay thank you so we wanted to know if you were G to pull anything yes thank you I got it walk up for a few minutes you want me to tell you what was pulled yes it would be very helpful thank you five 5-25 7-25 -25 10-25 16-25 17-25 18-25 2025 and 2325 was 19 pulled no oh it's 19 yeah that okay you have a question you should yeah we'll do them P okay it's okay you don't Council Rudin what what ones were you given the question so I'll just make my question yeah um my question was well just tell me what number and then I'll make a note that you wanted to ask us my question is on 15-25 okay oh yeah I had that one already yeah that wasn't pulled but I do have that you wanted to ask a question I do two different marks on it so I know one it uh yes um they didn't even leave me any crumbs we're on it so we can proceed okay so um I guess you'll do questions first before you want to vote on something yes my the first question I see is uh with 5-25 but I think uh councilwoman Ruden she pulled it afterwards so so 15-25 councilwoman Ruden had a question on and that is resolution designating official newspapers for the township of West Orange yes I know I know that the governor just made a ruling that um you can continue with the St leder as as um uh a body for public notice until March 1st correct I'm I don't know if we know if the Star Ledger is going to be an official um body to to post public notice after that yeah and I know that we have the West Orange Chronicles so I just want to make sure that all public notice is going to be front and center on our Township website as a backup and and once we pass this resolution which designates The Star Ledger if the Star Ledger is no longer the an entity that will be carrying a public notice where we won't be paying for it do we have to resend that resolution no you don't have to resend the resolution okay um and when you say advertising of Public Notices what do you what are you referring to exactly I mean anything that you would normally list as a public notice that you would have sent out to The Star Ledger right um can you post that on our website in an area called public notice okay so what we Norm yeah they are there so what we normally post on the websites are meeting dates um calendars and such like that the chronicle and the Star Ledger are used well the chronicle is mostly used for um publishing this is why we uh do an official newspaper resolution because we publish our ordinances and we publish our resolutions and then we do an affidavit we're required to have an affidavit so we literally will cut those out of the newspaper and and have them notorized and things like that um so we're still going to be able to do that with the chronicle if there's anything on an emergent basis like we discussed earlier then we would go to the store Ledger um obviously we can do that until March 1st and then the Star Ledger may do it online I'm not really sure but I there is some discussion about that I just don't know what the final conclusion is yet so if that's the case then it's not a problem we can still do some sort of a affidavit if it's still required um and then but as far as like the other posting Public Notices any 48 hour notice is published online we put it on our website um to let people know that you know there's obviously come a meeting coming up or things like that and it's organized by date so like tonight's meeting went on if there's something going on tomorrow night that'll be on and then so forth and so on um so it really shouldn't be a problem what you're asking for because it's basically already done if there's something that there is missing that you want on there then of course you would let me know and then we'll you know I'll get to the right person to make sure it gets up there could I just ask a follow-up question because I was not aware of this and I've occasionally been involved with the township activities over the years and I've I've never noticed that there's a spot on our website for legal advertising there's there's not it's it's on the very first page the home page page the calendar so if anybody wanted to join our meeting tonight they would go to that spot at the homepage and they would click on it and they get the link and all and the the uh and then you know that interesting but what about I mean it's nice that it's in the West Orange Chronicle when a resolution is passed but wouldn't that be nice to put it up so that residents can see what actually took place at the council meeting oh it's on the minutes it's on the minutes yeah that's on the minutes with on can it be the same public notice that you're putting in the west Arch Chronicle can that go up on the that goes in the chronicle is a copy of the resolution that's what it it's the same thing but you click click on it yeah it's already on the it's on easy to find they go under agendas they find it yeah I me every Town's like that because when I've looked at other resolutions on other towns that I get passed there's a set up the same way I mean it's really it's really duplicating and taking up space on the website because you have the the resolutions and the ordinances listed under your agenda each time and then I'm going to have to put it somewhere else the same exact thing it really doesn't make too much sense and what I try to do is follow up you know if anything was tabled or or failed tonight like I'll go back in change the agenda update it and put it back on the website so people will know oh that failed you know whatever and then of course there are the minutes too like Michelle said right thank you yeah oh and just in in terms of the minutes I just wanted to make a public request to you um that you give one line summary of what the audience what discuss that Yeah by law I'm only supposed to show action so that it's not something I don't mind putting like a subject matter I cannot do just a subject matter that's all I'm saying just just a subject matter so that if we ever need to review it or find we can we'll be able to look at the minutes absolutely I could do a subject matter that would be wonderful because I I I think that would be helpful to the residents who want to know what else other people are talking about and whether they want to go to the video okay to see what said that would be great thank you sure um I think that's all your questions uh councilwoman Ruden yes I had a question on number seven do anybody pull number seven yes yes okay so we could do questions before we do that he said I think we've hit all the questions okay if unless I uh there there's a question on seven but we're gonna pull that okay yeah wait yeah so is there a motion to approve the consent agenda some move second second yeah no you're testing me I understood I know what's going on I got it uh all in favor any opposed the consent agenda is implemented uh the first resolution pulled was 525 resolution authorizing service agreement for goose control technology 2025 councilwoman Ruden um yes I would like to make a motion not to pass this is can I do that right away or do we need have discussion s okay so um totally against this and I think it's cruel I these geese live in in West Orange I understand that they they um you know create some sort of a a pollution or whatever um in in the area haard health hazard disase um however I I see how much we've spent on this over the years it's a in my opinion I mean it says here that it's like just $8,000 but I believe um I believe that you asked for a detail and it actually is $223,000 a year it's a lot of money to enforce what I perceive as a R practice in West Orange um there are other options we need to look into them I don't can't offer you an uh an option directly tonight that is the perfect solution but I am totally against spending any more money on this Goose uh control technology which we have been investing in for the past 23 years this is where you say wild goose chase yes uh just just just as a a slight clarification the $23,000 and change uh is over a three year a three-year period okay so uh it's it's still a lot of money I'm not trying to uh uh uh reduce the importance of this um does anybody else have yes so so I just want to share with my Council colleag so I totally hear you if there's another alternative I'm always open to that I thought we've discussed that through the years but I think with this too I'm not sure if there's a Time sensitivity issue in in regards to when you have to do this but that being said if we don't do this and bypass it you will be having a full Council chamber of parents coming in because between the fields um the par with the parks stag field asack with the you know seniors out out there uh and and and people laying on their blankets so I I get it it's it's something that we've tried to balance in the past I'm open to other options if they're out there but if we don't do this um it's going to be problematic for us my question that I had in regards to this for administration is because I never like to assume um I gonna ask aspac is included in this quote I want to know what what is included because I couldn't Mr and I also want to know if Rock Springs included because I know we've had a geese issue up there but I think it's a different it's handled but it's true camper Camper's gonna handle Rock they handle camper it's expenses are split okay because I know my my son plays Rock Spring that's why I know there was gee up there so Mr you know thank you for staying late if you could just uh name and title so sure director Michael fanino director of the township West Orange Health Department so um this particular contract only deals with three sites um Crystal Lake Vincent's Pond and degman park and stag field yeah which is and the reason is because of the water bodies that surround them so we councilwoman Scaro myself um explored alternative options as p last spring yeah that's there are options but they're they're far greater costs than than what we're looking at here um my concern is strictly a public health concern you have feces all over the parks all over aspac and you know it's it's going to become to the point where if we're going to get overrun by geese yeah we're going to have to close Parks down it's going to become a public health hazard an emergency um you don't want people getting sick I mean they're kids rolling around in the grass and in feces and um you know people won't be able to put blankets out on the you know on the grass up at OAC this is a very very important contract um we need to continue doing what we did if we stop now we're going backwards we have we have to keep up with this and and I want to add for historical references before I was on the council being a a a sports mom years ago many years ago before you know we implemented something it's a problem out there i' like to add to it too I did EXT pretty extensive research with uh Mr Fonz we actually talked to other townships and asked them about what they were doing what was working what wasn't working there were uh some people who were using these uh sound types of apparatuses some with some success some not and uh we actually Hope was hoping to follow up with them you know as we move forward this year maybe next year but I do understand that this is a health hazard and it does need to be dealt with as we look at other options but maybe we can I'll go back and pull out my folder and maybe talk to some of the other townships that I had spoken with and just see where they are on it you know what they're doing that's working and and what is so just for everybody's edification if you don't know uh this contractor regularly uh controls the population by addling the eggs putting an oil impermeable uh barrier on the eggs after they're laid and it's a real goose chase to try to find some of the nests uh uh for these for the birds and just so you know this is not for the regular Canadian geese these are called resident geese they find someplace and they stay there and that's uh part of the issue um I noticed in some of the uh expenditures that we had that there were uh certain charges and there's one in the proposed contract uh and I can't remember the exact phrase but something about uh uh taking an extra effort to control the population what exactly does that mean Mr fono taking there's like there's like a $3,500 charge uh in the contract I don't have it in front of me uh okay so the break potential charge yeah the breakdown is um $3,000 for the egg treatments that's what you're speaking about um they charge $475 to secure all the permits and all the administrative stuff that goes along with getting the permits from the US fish and wildlife and then the 4500 is uh if if the the town chose to do a removal um we haven't had to do that in a number of years um because the addling has been so successful um and then the $500 is um years ago we had Vol a volunteer group that wanted to help out and they charged $500 to oversee those volunteers yeah and to train yes y yeah I this was a contract an annual contract when I was on the council before and at that time and I haven't checked but there were communities in Essex County County that did complete volunteer programs and uh they had enough people who uh wanted to uh be involved in something that uh the United States Humane Society uh has certified as an acceptable practice uh for addling the eggs because they basically don't uh gestate they stop the gestation period before there is any sort of uh uh viable um proing that's correct so I don't know if uh Council M scraa if you found that in in your research or Mr fanino in your research but I would certainly uh we tried to do that uh we tried to do that when I was uh here earlier and there was a great deal of opposition from the administration and uh other Council people so we never got that far but that may be something that uh we want to uh we want to look into uh especially because we have such an active uh environmentally conscious high school over there I would think there would be tons of uh special project of of people who would we certainly I mean that's why it's built into the contract we just haven't had the interest um councilman since you know you were on the council last it's kind of Fallen by the wayside but we did as you know at one time have a have a group that helped look for the nest and and the $500 was for them to Super for Gtech to supervise those so did that work out was that a was that a successful or a POS absolutely I mean the more eyes you could have out there looking for these nests because they are hard to come by um you know the better so you know it's just I guess people just lost interest or you know other other things come about but um that's certainly an option in here okay sounds like a perfect scalp project yes absolutely Scouts talk to the board of ed people and see what their science classes in the en enironmental groups would be interested I don't mean to put you on the spot but I can't remember when the period starts when we when you would typically find the nests identify them and then uh so you can get a good start on the on EG so so um they typically start um end of March usually March 31st or April 1 and they do this weekly um until miday yeah it's hard to get volunteers so the the earlier like we got a a later jump last year um just because it took a while to get the contract approved by the council but we did we did have some success last year I think I gave you the the figures I have them um you know so and and having Gtech being here this many years they know they know where the nests are so it's not yes they do look for additional Nest but they know yep well there's mapping they have maps of where the nests have been you know so there is an advantage to having you know that historical knowledge here and I want to thank you for taking the time you and your staff indulging me because I was very very concerned about this and I realized it did kind of delay things a bit it's a major concern and like I said if if we just stop it's going to be it's going to be a huge detriment and like so hate to have to do that but we might have to close Harps at some point if it gets that bad and we're really we're really ruining all the work we've done up until this point so uh councilwoman is there any way that we [Music] can not support this tonight based on what councilwoman Ruden is saying and come up with another solution within the next month what do other municipalities do there must be other municipalities right that that that there's I mean there's different options in terms of you know things you can do removals you can do hazing you could the things that the councilwoman Scarpa and I looked at are you know they're not really effective um you know we we at modifying Landscapes and putting in special types of grass that that that you don't like to eat or walk on that that's great but it that all costs cost a substantial amount of money where you know a much greater amount of money than we're dealing with here and you know it's you know that's we don't have have a budget for that you know to to modify the the landscape around degn and pond I mean can can we okay instead of voting it down can we table this until the next meeting so you guys can sit and talk and see what other options we've already done this we've already done this but but now she's I'm I'm I'm the the the ramification here is that the longer we put this off that we have to get permits and the permits take a long time um we have to you know we have to get them on board so that they could start at the end of March I hear you director I'm just trying to help AAS no I understand I'm saying we we've we've done this research and it's it's it's not feasible but I think that now that she's been sworn in can we just wait until the next meeting so you guys will have time between now and then to sit and talk and come up with some type of solution is there any harm in it waiting a couple more weeks until the I don't think there's harm in it but nothing's going to change there's I don't have another solution should be okay with that councilwoman Ruden is that something you're meable to yes trying to come up with a compromise yeah I mean if Council scar wants to sort of provide some of the information that we found I will we don't we don't I don't I don't have another solution to propose based on the budget we're dealing with it's I understand that there's a budgetary problem speak sorry um you know we have been doing the same thing for 23 years and the cost of that is over $200,000 would it could wouldn't it be less to change the Landscaping if we rather than continue this practice every single year I think it's I think you still need to do the addling because the transformation of the landscape is not going to happen all at once if there was money appropriated to do that I think you could do it over time but I still think that no matter what other Solutions you propose or are out there the addling still needs to be active some of the landscape design work would probably take you know several years because it's got a mature and it's you know there's there's it doesn't happen overnight it's it's a process so you know just to stop this one particular process is gonna is I my opinion it's going to be a detriment councilwoman Scarpa as part of your research about Alternatives did you reach out to the high school or to other uh environmental groups like the scouts we hadn't gone to that step because that might that might only take a week or two to talk to these various groups and see if they want to do this but they would still be doing we'd have to sign this contract they would be doing yes because they would train and supervise it's an option like I said we haven't used it in years um you know tabling it to to get volunteers together is is wouldn't be necessary because if you can get them together in time for the end of March then we we just tell Gtech we want volunteer management and they'll they'll provide it because i' I'd be willing to to push on that because uh I was part of the volunteers many years ago right as a young man you can address it with the schools and I can reach out to Hayden Mo you know or some people at the high school and see if they're environmental Club is interested in that yeah just need to get get a schedule of how many dat how many dates you need volunteers for it's a weekly it's a weekly basis it's a weekly process so it's you know basically that's the problem they're very sneaky as long as they have somebody there to supervise them which they've agreed to do in this contract then but the point is it it's in the built in the contract so we wanted to go to that R route we can correct so and it doesn't mean we can't look at planting grasses and doing some of those other landscape projects but that'll happen over time the work in progress correct and maybe we can look at that as well and it becomes a budgetary issue because we're going to have to find funds to do that based on because we did we even had someone in from Pennsylvania who does this and I was asking her different pricing and it was pretty substantial for her time and you know to actually do this for us and just can I can I make a motion to table this so we can move forward we spent a lot of time on this and I think we have other resolutions we have to get to because I'm gonna have to leave uh fairly soon is there a second second have a second well with I just want to the time we have time if we table to the next meeting I don't I don't think waiting till the next meeting is going to be but we do need to move forward okay last year it didn't get approved until the middle of March and I think I feel like we lost a little bit of time last year um so I agree next you know waiting another meeting I don't think is going to be a problem but we do we do need to move forward with it okay we'll make calls and we'll get back to you okay not Cho okay I'm going to take a vote to table uh councilwoman castelino yes councilwoman gber Michael Yes councilman covia yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes okay the motion carries to table and it it'll be listed on the next agenda thank you have a good evening thank you director um 725 7-25 resolution appointing Janice Gary Adams zoning official as Municipal housing liaison councilman uh councilwoman rud and you pulled that yes I I pulled that because I did some research into the department and saw that there is an employee who is highly qualified her name is Margaret Shen Bal and she is a certified zoning officer and M M um PA and um she is currently in charge of public housing in Section 8 and it seems to me that that is a perfect match for somebody who is the municipal housing liaison since that seems to currently fall under um her her um rubric of of of jobs um it is a administrative job it's just keeping records um and it seems like it's something that she's pretty much already doing and I also think it's a really nice idea to identify other employees in town um and and pass the torch a little bit it sh share some of the responsibilities um I met with with um Miss Gary Adams she is probably one of the busiest people in town I don't think adding another uh uh hat on top of the many hats that she already has is is a great idea so I would like to make a mo I would like to suggest I'm making motions before discussion I'm sorry um I would like to suggest that we replace um the name of um Janice Gary Adam with Margaret Shen Bal I also want to add that I spoke with her today and she would like the um the appointment that's a violation of the flare act A and B the mayor reserves the right to appoint duties and responsibilities to the township employees according to according to the ordinance which I did send you it is not a violation Um this can be this position can be appointed by um should be appointed by the governing body and so it is really the legislative role as well as Andor the mayor if you're considering it to be uh the governing body to be either the mayor Andor the council so the council also has the right to make this decision and I sent you the municipal code today um and I I hope that that municipal code is followed that's what that's what the ordinance says speaking to individual employees is a violation the fauler ACT you have to go through the mayor for that there are 564 municipalities with 12 different forms of government this is a statute of universal application so the the statute can't contemplate every different form of government in these 564 municipalities so they require that the governing body pass a resolution to show compliance it's more ministerial than anything else the mayor still has the right to pick and select the duties and responsibilities of her staff i' if Mr Moon disagrees with that basically similar to the advice that you disregarded earlier that the appointment is a with with sub to approval of the government doesn't select person themselves you can vote it down that's fine but you don't get to replace the person on that is not what the code says could first of all if I if I could I I just want to try to keep clear that and at least try to get on the same page as to what what uh is the guiding uh legality here so uh if we could because there was some mention of Statute here we're just looking at the ordinance so perhaps if there's a conflict between the ordinance and whatever statute you're referring to then obviously the state law always guides but I just want to if you could uh councilwoman Ruden uh can you read the relevant part of the ordinance give the citation on and our municipal code and then just the relevant part because I'd like to hear you know what the response is to that clarify section 25-1 18-17 Municipal housing liaison in the last sentence of that paragraph it says the municipal housing liaison shall be appointed by the governing body and may be a full or part-time Municipal Employee and I also just want to to um respond Mr Abbott to your um assertion that as a council person I am not entitled to speak with Township employees and that I have to go through the mayor since I've been in and even before I was in I was making arrangements to meet with Mr detc and Mr um EV every Council head that I every every department head that I could um it seems to me that I have the perfect right as a an elected official to speak with employees of this um of this Township the forner ACT is clear on that um the you were G you were given you know through the mayor the ability to meet with all the department heads to become acquainted with them and wear the ongoings and so on and we encourage that we encourage that even of existing council members but to interview a specific employee to see if he or she is interested in a job that's already been assigned by the mayor is you know it's it's it's can you can you please cite that in the fauler act it says that a council person in um there were so many attorneys emails back and forth today it was in one of the attorney's emails he actually cited that okay I i' I'd like to I'd like to see that citation because it's very surprising that as an elected official I can't speak with anybody who works for the township without it's not not really what I said yeah can't you can't do L I'm sorry can't unil you can't lit unilaterally discuss specific appointments yeah with a municipal attorney with a Municipal Employee well I would like to see the code that says that and I did not I did not offer her a position I just wanted to see based on looking up her credentials she seemed to be the proper placement and having spoken with Miss Gary Adams about her job it seemed like passing the torch to somebody else seemed like a good idea and what we should be doing as a council to encourage younger um employees to have more responsibility uh you can definitely have that discussion with the mayor I I just just for some perspective I'm chuckling because this was one of the first lessons that I learned when I came to the council it seemed to make perfect sense that you know yeah I can talk to anybody I want to but the fauler ACT is pretty clear that uh we talk directly to even directors a as the by the leave of of the mayor and and uh it's usually uh graciously given it may not be such uh going forward but um we we do have to work within uh the legal as opposed to the logical sometimes and I can see Mr Shalo I'm just going to let him speak please and council president in in respect to the the person one of the things that we have done is both the administration and the governing body in the past that we tend to not first of all mention the name employee when it's effort to a job in here just because we don't know exactly what was said or wasn't said and In fairness to that employee who I I I think a lot of I think she's doing for the record she's doing a very good job okay um but um the position of the housing Choice voucher program and the affordable housing program put on by the state are two separate and distinct programs and training is for both of them some people have training in the housing Choice Voucher Program prr program and some people currently don't and they may not be eligible to assume that position without the training and the state is still developing some of that so I just want to point out that that the two programs are distinct this particular item that we're talking about tonight is mandated by the state that we have to have somebody who's familiar with the program and we have to submit it to the state by no later than February 3D so to have another person go in there uh this this person that the administration is putting up is qualified to meet that this application here we're not talking about anybody else but just the resolution here this person is qualified we can always reappoint people later another time I believe I'm not 100% sure but these two programs are distinct and different and I don't know if your entire staff is completely um able to handle both programs right now that's all I would say about that without about personel okay so that was one piece of what we were talking about I'm sorry did you when that part of discussion is over I have a question on this that's not related to that okay we will we will get back to but I do want to try to drain this or at least clarify the other piece of this was that we read what our Municipal Code says and it seems to me pretty clear that our code says that the governing body makes this selection so I'm just would like to get some feedback in terms of why uh the administration does not see it that way or doesn't seem to see it that way right now thank you if you could just share that with everyone that's fine let me ask my question why he's looking yeah that's a great idea you council president so uh so I guess I want to ask the administration in this person's role that takes us on so we have give we were given our affordable housing numbers that we have to respond back to the state by the end of the year is is this role this position involved in being that liaison as well yeah Janice is already working with the Mion group on this okay because we have to have a conversation because we could what I learned in Atlantic City when I went to Convention I took three classes on this is that we can and I've had conversations with should I think maybe the chief maybe Mr smdo I know I had a conversation with the mayor we C we can uh we can challenge that number we got quoted a high number we could challenge that number on the you know I could sit here for a half hour and talk about it but I know we don't have that kind of time tonight are we challenging that number at this point in time and that's you know do we have that information yet because there was a resolution I was going to recommend that we so it's my understanding that we have a right to challenge we have it really determined because um according to miss Adams the state is still trying to Define some of the questions that are out there um and so we while we will look I think we're going to look to challenge those numbers I don't know if we know the right proper procedure yet because it hasn't been clearly defined yet by the state so we're still and we're working with our consultant to figure that determine those numbers so when we have that idea and those numbers we can definitely report that back to you I'm learning about this too as we go along this new this whole round and i' I've signed up for the courses myself to help Miss Adams in this program because I I don't know a lot about it so we're we're in the process of determining what needs to be done and and this is something that we have to address I was in a room full of hundreds of of Municipal uh Representatives that were very frustrated that the numbers all came back so high my concern being is some of the uh numbers for example there was a man uh a gentleman that uh represented a town from the pons down in South Jersey and all that acreage of the pylons you know was calculated into their their numbers which obviously you can never build on not it's preserved land we have preserved land uh what what acreage that we have preserved is calculated in that number so there's a lot of vetting that needs to be done where we have now two uh two and a half Title One schools uh they just named Kelly Elementary H uh have title School Title One school yeah I I'm I'm gonna give a little advice and warning of opening discussion potential affordable housing which may come okay because we may have to file the judgement okay comp so before we start providing sort of perspective positions sure point being today is we we need to I was concerned if this role was going to be involved in in with that procedure I can tell you that Miss Adams is working with our our Consultants to work with this number to address the numbers that we've been provided and when we have a better understanding and an idea we we will report back to you who the Consultants that she's working with Nish Wayne oh and and also CB is that their area is this their area of expertise yes Nish Wayne's yes okay is there a motion on the floor or sorry about that no that's okay is there something directed to me I'm sorry no I I'm I'm done thank you Mr Moon I think you have the floor yeah I'm looking at the the version that's posted on on coded ecodes um the only reason why I'm confused is there's reference to the courts in the language I don't know yes I thought that was unusual too yeah I don't know if that's language from a specific uh settlement agreement or whether that's actually part of the ordinance so I don't want to speak about taking a look at whatever this final ultimate I gota look back to the affordable hous that's what I'm trying say okay and council president I just want to I I did forget also I'd be remiss I know that when speaking to miss Adams today that um we are actually overdue we were supposed to have an appointment um like like two or three weeks ago we're being extended to Courtesy um so this is one of these things that we need to to address so um so this this resolution is what we put on to address that getting it completed by the state put this mandate on there we're not the only town going through this you know we're you know I know of other people are going through the same situation so um and if we do want to and to the point of the councilwoman do we want to train our staff we are we are looking at a um you know program to where we are looking to further our St and we encourage to learn this new process yeah uh it sounds like from all of the data here that if we have to uh get this determined by February 3rd we have at least one more council meeting and we may have a special council meeting thrown in uh so we have two opportunities to do this I I was uh want to move that we uh vote to table this I would agree and see what happens there yes Council saying the same thing but I just heard Mr SMA said that we don't have that time in fact they've already extended it and it was several weeks ago they gave us an ultimatum of December of February 3rd but we are overdue we should have submitted a while back so why didn't we submit a while back because I don't believe it made it to the council to get taken care of I think we tried to put on a special meeting last month but it just wasn't hurt so was something and I apologize this was something that we you know this was thrown on us at you know near the end and as I said I know there a lot of colleagues in administrations around the state are running into the same problem and they're going through the same thing about who they're appointing and who the resos and things of that nature so does the state push this through everybody they've been doing that for about three or four decades probably right so I I move that we vote to table this and uh second do we have a second I did I second okay we have a second is there any further discussion no okay uh councilwoman celino yes councilwoman gber Michel yes councilman kovia yes councilwoman Ruden no councilwoman Scara yes okay the motion carries motion carries four to one okay thank you and Mr Moon we just have a have a yeah IOU from you that would appreciate uh it is after 10:00 and so I was made into a liar what would you say within two or three hours saying that we were going to keep our meetings at 10 o' our goal Grace that's our goal our goal it's our goal but we can't do it until we pass the ordinance okay okay so do you want to go on or do you want to adjourn is there some sense here we have we have work to do I I understand that we've got someone who needs to I just well then you which I will which I've made it very transparent about it I just think that um we should schedule a special meeting date now before I leave so I think we're going to need to for the other matter right and and and then if based on pending matters new matters Council discussion if there are three votes for C through I then we should have a special meeting to vote on these as well as discuss whatever it is given it's your holiday I think that's only fair just for me but I'm just saying I would like us now to open our calendars and a special meeting date and then when I leave you guys can resume so I'm confused we expecting if we try to keep to the 10 o' okay one thing at a time we've got uh suggest by a councilwoman to get a a date for a special meeting special council meeting to uh address the if we whatever we don't get to today in today's agenda and we also want to try to move forward with the um proposed legislation that's in uh pending matters new matters so we are planning to address each of these items but then we want to come back uh as quickly as possible to keep moving them forward council president that's not what I said oh sorry maybe I wasn't clear what I said is because I have to leave now when I leave you guys will continue to go through the resolutions and the ordinances and pending matters new matters Council discussion I would like before I leave if we could open our calendar so we could schedule a special meeting to discuss whatever it is regarding retaining an attorney as well as if the matters under pending matters are approved by the majority of the council tonight then we can also have those put on in that special meeting can you just vote for attorney earlier this evening you passed a resolution to we should go executive session with that attorney we're gonna have to have a meeting with him right well after the he's they're ready right well obviously you guys met with them and gave them information like do he no we didn't that was that was simply for trying to retain him that was it okay nothing else so so he doesn't have anything to work with come back no we need to sit with him okay no we we want to get stuff to him and then meet with him so the special meeting scheduled yes but onless I'm asking if we can go through our calendars now and then send him those dates he can even we can do virtual with him he doesn't have to come in in person so you don't need the administration see because because the meetings you're talking about some means you're going to need Administration we do need the administration ask I'm asking for two things in this special meeting one is executive session and the other thing is so that we can vote on whatever resolutions or ordinances that the majority decides are interested and having on an agenda the processes we have to discuss we have to vote on each one and it goes on to the agenda on the next meeting instead of inundating the next meeting having a special meeting also can I clarify you look a little confused um she we we have seven ordinances on for motion at the end for discussion at the ending resoling yes resolution vote to have them on the next meeting so if we have a special meeting in addition to having an executive session we can also have a first reading of those publication issues you may not depending on the date because you have to have enough time between introduction and second and final reading in order to how much time between introduction I believe 10 days but but it would just be introduction at that point it would be introduction but then it would be on second reading on the meeting of the 28th or right but which is why this is so wonderful because we have three weeks between now but I'm saying if you don't pick a date if I can't get them advertised by that time with enough time in between then it's not going to work out and I just want to make one other recommendation so or comment rather so I I get where you're going and because believe me staying here two three o'clock in the morning has been horrible however as we push and have all these special meetings like I know your main goal is to be transparent and and all that when you get off the regular Council agenda and now you have all these special meetings people don't keep track of all those special meetings so you're having now all these action items on special meeting nights as opposed to regular Council nights I don't and I think it just you don't give the public the opportunity to you know I'm saying like I the issue is that you got to follow the bounc and B wait three weeks that next agenda is going to be an an action pack heavy agenda and we're going to be here to and also legal needs time to to look at them to write them look at you know to read everything so but you also need the public to come comment by ordinance you're not allowed right but they are kidding they we can help you're not allowed by ordinance the legal department rights the ordinances and understand I'm just said that we can help in what way though by by suggesting the language that well then when you suggest the language they have to review that and then put it is more timely to be honest I mean I've seen both sides of it so so so why don't we do the we have to be here on what did we decide the 23rd for ab oh no that's ABC um 22 22nd 23rd that doesn't give us two weeks we had when's the next counil 28 so we would have to do it either the 14th or the 15th which is not enough time it's okay we'll just keep 28 we don't have enough time between them advertising advertising rules and then legal looking at it yeah I mean by the time they wrate it everybody it's I think we should do a separate meeting for executive session yeah well that should be fast so yeah that has to be right away and we could do that on Zoom yeah we can do it on Zoom yeah yeah we could that yeah I mean I don't feel comfortable having executive I think we should be in person and we can have him on Zoom I don't feel comfortable that yeah because anyone can be in the room without us knowing yeah I do not t that yeah um all right let's let's no problem coming in person you know that I know that I was just explained why I'm not comfortable with that you want to propose the time or does the uh Madame clerk Council presid you don't have to have a meeting to do your executive session you've retained your attorney you have attorney client privilege you can the five of you can meet with your attorney anytime anywhere you don't have to have a public meeting to go on to exec session to do that and come back out now excuse me if there's other things that you want to accomplish that night does a different matter but um if that helped you yes you can do that anytime thank you okay great thank you when we could do that then on that nowe good night everyone again Merry Christmas to all my Orthodox Christians and happy New Year Western and thank you to your son for waiting around well he has his iPad died and he's on my phone so he's fine he's on Roblox keep doing Merry Christmas maros so there were two pieces Merry Christmas I would just hope that next year we don't schedule a council meeting on a holiday especially one that I'm observing because we don't do them on Jewish holidays we don't do them on you know the American celebrate the holidays so and that's it that that will be added to our calendar could we done Wednesday or no that's still hard no had we had to have a meeting with in the within the first seven days right we couldn't tomorrow because okay again on like we don't have meetings on the 24th or 25th of December well we're not swearing anybody in next year so it's easier yeah that's true um I I see an esteemed director in the back of the council chambers is there a particular uh piece of legislation or or pieces of legislation that we can address so that she might be able to that would 1925 is hers uh that looks like the only one that belongs so that's what asmeret had uh had pulled that but she's leaving oh okay well we could still speak to her I can just say I don't know it's someone's phone is going yeah I know yeah can we silence 1925 you had some issues sounds like so so uh yes 925 do you know what her issues are 1925 oh councilwoman G Michael pulled it but she's also pulling herself out of the meeting so is do we how do we want to address this do we want to consider 1925 yes do you know what the issues are yes I do know I do know what the issues are okay so we she'll talk I just want to follow up on on 19 with the B if you can give the history of it withing application where we are and for people who are listening who don't know AR on December 10 okay so want to just move around a little bit to address uh resolution 1925 she's leaving what's the difference well because uh councilwoman Ruden is is uh is going to car the carbal is here so we want to let her thank you that was very thoughtful she shouldn't have to sit here all night what did you want to say so oh I she's here in case we have questions if we don't have questions she can go home earlier we address her questions she can I if we have a director here we should try to move their stuff up just as a currency in the future yes hey Marcus happy birthday happy birthday happy birthday happy birthday sitting here [Laughter] tonight ni probably I love that safety barrier about a 12-year-old yeah scale so anyway uh back to the agenda uh 1925 uh 19-25 the state of New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection Green Acres Program enabling resolution for supplemental funding request and uh uh the appears to be a carryover from last year and uh councilwoman Ruden if she hasn't pulled it yet she's pulling it now she did councilwoman gber Michael did if anybody has questions but it is pulled uh councilwoman Ruden do you want to take this on please because I know you've been doing some research thank you um this is this is a um enabling resolution to um purchase not to purchase to to apply for the second round of Green Acres money for the uh Rock Spring area um and unfortunately the township has not completed this application for the first round and they have not completed it because they have not given in a recorded deed or survey and there is still some continued discussion about whether or not the entire property which the township is under the impression is intended to be preserved is actually going to be preserved so until the deed and Survey is is um given to Green Acres along with appraisal instructions I am not in favor of pushing forward a second round of green money when we do not know at this point whether the entire 138 Acres will be preserved in perpetuity as open space so uh councilwoman Ruden thank you for that how do you uh believe you know all of this information I spoke with the um person of Green Acres who is in charge of this application who also um spoke with all of you last on on January 3rd I can speak to this if you want please okay so the mayor is adamed she wants to whole parcel in Green Acres councilwoman celino Council gabber Michael wanted it carved out I don't know about any other council members councilwoman calino may have changed their position on this after being on the call with Green Acres the other day the only reason the things that are missing and are now in the possession of our town engineer and our grant writer is because the state never asked them for us the state claims they sent a letter but the state cannot rep reproduce this letter they can't find it nobody got it the mayor didn't get it our grant writers didn't get it I didn't get it our CFO didn't get it our Township attorney didn't get it nobody got it they can't find it it doesn't exist trust me if they had sent it to us we would have given them everything the Green Acres people were clear that there is no harm in asking for the second round which if we don't do in a timely manner we lose a whole year we have nothing else out there to ask for so if we don't have this in by it's like February 3rd or whatever that date is we lose another year we continue to pay the interest on the bonds that Mr detc is paying down because that's where this money goes It goes right to pay the bonds off which I think is what this Council really wants yes indeed this this application should have been filed five years ago there was very specific conversation to to this Council and to the public and particularly to the community that lives around Rock Spring that the entire parcel would be would be purchased for open space there was conversation in your in your uh dialogue with the Green Acres um person about carving out the clubhouse I don't want it carved out the mayor doesn't want it carved out certain council members want it carv I'll speak when it's my turn and I explain if you have the deed and the survey ready to go ready to go then then I would vote to approve this resolution until that entire until the needed and Survey are in and show that the entire property is going to be um uh maintained as open space and I mean 138 Acres because I heard the mayor say today 130 Acres I don't know if she misspoke she probably misspoke she an adamant and clear I'm saying it on the record mayor wants the entire parcel in if it's going to be carved out it's going to take a super majority of council to do it because the mayor intends to veto any three vote okay then then this is this is not due until February 5th we have another meeting before that if the deed that shows that this entire property will be open space is produced then I would feel comfortable voting for this otherwise I do not I I will Co I will ensure that our Engineers here you get a copy of everything I don't want to rely in the state posting this and you're looking for it on a website I'd rather you know that it was sent you'll be copied on the email you'll see it go to grant writer you'll see it go to Green Acres and I guess Miss carbal is going to speak to that Miss carbal if you could just give your name and your title so everybody knows please s caral c Municipal engineer we are working to get a surveyor to do the entire property uh survey it is indeed that we are trying to do the entire property to be part of Green Acres there is no harm or anything that prohibits the Township from applying for this grant this is basically a continuation of the previous grant that the township had applied for Rock Spring Golf Course and the good thing about that is is that a lot of that money could be utilized for a lot of the soft CA that we're going to have to face the survey the um filing of the deed anything that is going to be professional Services could be taken out of that monies or those grants so nothing prohibits the Township from moving forward with this application and in the interim we will continue to work with DP and addressing the deficiencies of the application thank you for your comment but I I believe that in in order to protect the Public's interest and um to make sure that everything is transparent that the survey and the deed need to be produced prior to going for a second round anything can happen there can be a change of use five acres could be carved out eight Acres could be carved out that is not what the public believes is going to happen and if you're saying that the mayor also doesn't want that to happen then I believe you but I would like to see the proof that something very clear and I'm sorry for interrupting you there is no way that I'm going to be able to produce a survey for 138 Acres or any other company in the period of time that we find out about this information we didn't find out about this truthfully not even a month ago so that being said that no one in this Administration including myself in the engineering department received the letter we have to now obtain and contract with a company to do the survey for the 138 acres and I don't know if anybody understands but doing a boundary survey takes time I could tell you that because I'm a professional land surveyor myself in the state of New Jersey that will definitely take a tremendous amount of time and effort for us to get it submitted to the state of New Jersey by March which is our deadline all I'm asking is that you trust on behalf of the mayor the administration and myself based on the in meeting that we had with d last week that the intent and it still is is to preserve the 138 Acres of the golf course if I could just if I could just follow up is this what you wanted to talk about this this issue then please go ahead okay so and thank you council president so I I get I hear what you're saying be and and what's frustrating with government it takes forever to get anything done done I I would like to see it all preserved but I also am realistic the GOL so now we bought the golf course now we have to provide the capital to get to to preserve the building all these properties that the township own that's on us that we have to fix the properties we have to make sure they're they're maintained uh and especially the clubhouse it could be very profitable for the township but not in the condition that it's in we're not we're not realizing a profit that we should be uh obtaining at this point in time so what my concern was is if like I would like we we're talking about this tourism package and being a visitor's destination ideally it'd be a great place to H host weddings there okay so so we're talking about a lot of wedding venues now have 12 room uh hotel rooms golf packages nothing crazy but something small boutique Lake that would be a perfect fit for that venue and but we'd have to redo the the existing footprint so there's a lot of questions that I asked the uh the gentleman on the call that you spoke with or actually his representative and they weren't you know they were pretty sure but not 100% sure so we're trying to get that information because I'm I want to preserve it but not if we can't utilize it in the way that we need so we could have some of of funding uh come our way with that being said too um at some point in time if you've been following all the conversations throughout the years uh there was a proposal because again you have the people that live on Rock Spring Road who are uh um I I deal with all the time uh you know build it and they will come we don't want anything too big and too crazy there because we don't want to inate that neighbor Hood as well so Through The Years there was talk of putting a driveway going from the top uh down to Northfield Avenue kind of like if you've been to Crystal Springs if not look up Crystal Springs they have the same driveway that I'm talking about it's not too Encompass them on the four houses that are on uh uh that part of the street uh you put a buffer everything else it's part of the landscape I wanted to make sure that question would was answered that can we do that with getting green makers and that question was a yes so we're able to we're able to do that so there's certain particular details that that you know the de you say it yourself the devil's in the detail so I wanted to make sure that a lot of these details that we can maximize the potential of the property um these questions are answered and that we can move move forward with it that's why I had tabled it in the past I'm comfortable now moving forward um uh I believe they're going to put it well we talked about a like we have to have an agreement with Green Acres correct me if I'm wrong that they enumerate some of these items one at time please yeah that they can enumerate these items to us so I don't know where we're at with all of that but um you know and and that's to councilwoman uh G Michael um her concerns were too like con of pitcher um M clones on the county property um you know that kind of situation we go out for 20- year a lease we have someone we attract and they come and they they build it so those are the situations that we we have to look into because we have a fiscal responsibility as well of as reserving the properties if we considered like the steep slope that that that's on and everything no but this is existing footprint so we won't go into that steep slope this is the existing footprint and how far we could add onto it like there's a pool on the property so we just want you know again we don't know what we're a boutique hotel you no I'm not talking about a boutique it has to be Golf Course related as well because the golf course is there so the golf course could keep the catering facility that's all we're asking is or I'm asking is a catering facility with some overnight rooms 12 rooms that's all that's all that's a lot of these Pleasant tail Chateau now has only it's for the wedding party to sleep there it's not a big you know crazy EV the people that come to your event so wouldn't be anything that would be built into the side of the m a mountain that somebody pitched years ago not nothing crazy like that but we we need to make sure of it has to support has to support overall Recreation Recreation purpose which is golf at this location I I just want to let Miss carbal uh speak because she wanted to speak earlier so please go ahead just to clarify for uh councilwoman ruden's question so that you know the survey that needs to be done for Green Acres it has to follow a specific set of Standards just for Green Acres and it also has to be approved by Green Acres therefore there will be an interim where we're going to be going probably back and forth at least once or twice with Green Acres for their approval once that is done and they have review also the meets and Bounds description that will be adhere to the deed then the deed can be filed once we get those documents I will be more than happy to provide it you know to the council but until then there is nothing that really prohibits for this application for the grant to move forward Miss carbal did you indicate that uh you expected to meet a March deadline for the survey and for the yes which is g to be very uh you know it's it's close but I'm sure like we can make something work okay just wanted to get that time timeline I just want to throw in a couple of comments here uh I was at the meeting shortly after the mayor was elected and took office in which she painstakingly along with uh I think the town attorney uh tried to carve out tried to sell the idea of carving out four different uh plots on the property to build residential housing and I don't know how high so I'm a bit concerned because she seemed to think at that point that carving up the property was a good idea and I I don't disagree with you but I I really would uh I don't disagree with what you're saying I just uh would feel much better if I got some proof on that the other thing is about as uh councilwoman celino mentioned about fiscal responsibility what she's talking about is investing even more money in that property when we are drowning in debt we do not have Capital to invest on there we're now spending almost 12% of our budget on debt service and we shouldn't I don't think it's particularly prudent to be considering a lot more investment on a property when we we don't have uh a lot of capital we don't have free capital and the money not us if if uh sorry now you're sorry so I'm sorry I'm sorry no it's okay uh well we'll just we'll just uh we'll just leave it at that and Miss carvalo did you want to respond to that or did anyone I am aware of the uh carving out of the property that was last year I did actually made a sketch myself on how was this one was going to be carved out or the street but when I did the preliminary Engineers estimate it was clear that it was not I will say a project or something that will be actually economically feasible for the township nor I will say permittable in terms of njd so I do trust that the mayor's intent it is to preserve the entire property as it was discussed during the meeting last week with njd okay thank you Council C you were there I don't was any any other counc I say you're the only council person so please so the reason why and and I apologize I didn't I I neglected just now to mention one detail so the reason why I didn't know whether we should carve out the clubhouse or not is because of what you just stated for us to put in that Capital we we we don't have that but to have someone else come put in that Capital with a 20-year uh transaction uh lease um situation like mcloons with the county may be beneficial and I want to make sure sure that if we did something of that nature that we can do that if we put the clubhouse in Green Acres if not I am going to Advocate that we carve out the uh clubhouse so we can do that and benefit on maintaining the building otherwise if we keep it in Green Acres and we have to put out Capital expenditures that's going to be problematic for us so an RFP can be done with this whole parcel in green acre to still have somebody come in with a long-term lease and put money into the clubhouse and fix it up and rightsize it because it's it's entirely too big for a public golf course it's you know it's a private uh it was built for a private course um so that would save the town taxpayers from having to pay that bill um you know the the keer lease isn't even up for I think it's three more years so this isn't something that's going to happen tomorrow yeah the the only thing we gain by not seeking this next funding round is that we're going to continue to pay debt on the bonds that that's it I mean nothing changes with Carvin and car Vats and you know if everybody remembers and uh council president you were on the council at the time when Rob Pary was mayor and and we bought Rock Spring which you know happened like that um right in this courtroom was the only time I ever saw a standing ovation for anything and the courtroom was packed or the council chambers as it were were packed and standing ovation and Rob was very clear that this was probably going to be a nine-hole golf course and half of it would be developed maybe some open space passive Recreation that type of thing Standing Ovation soon as he did the Avalon Bay presentation people wanted to you know cook them and eat him that's it he said enough I'm not doing I'm never touching this again as long as I'm mayor when mayor McCartney became mayor she went back out with it and said we have these four areas that could be developed wanted to gauge The public's interest he was going to be tar feathered were going to cook her eat her vice versa she she's the same thing she said I'm not touching this we're not doing this we're putting the whole thing in Green Acres that's why I said tonight if any anything other than the whole thing in Green Acres is going to take a super majority vote from Council because if three people vote to do it the mayor's going to veto it but again so if you don't vote for this whether it's tonight or the next meeting if you don't vote for it you lose one year of funding because we're not getting it for any other parcel in town we're just going to continue to pay interest on those bonds that's that's what you're gambling with if that's worth it to you then that's that's what you're elected and we still own a building on the property that we have to maintain it so that was my concern do we need to put that in Green Acres or or not because you know obviously we don't have the capital to keep maintaining it on you have more options if you carve it out because you can't um because if you leave it in it has to support the golf you can still have weddings and you could have limited number of rooms you can't rent them nightly they have to be part of a golf package or a wedding package and so on you could have things like that that with the Green Acres clear all this up can absolutely do it with leaving it in if you carve it out you can do whatever you want but you want to put apartments up you can do whatever you want so my advice to council is to leave it all in because the minute you carve it out you don't really gain anything except for those other options and you're going to lose the public trust because they're not going to believe you that you really want to just do what councilman celino said they're going to think you really want to develop it so leave it all in that's what the mayor wants to do I think that's what you want to do certainly Council Rudin wants to do as long as we could get it paid for by a vendor I mean that's that's we have to do an RFP on that and there's probably three more years before you're even you know I mean maybe two you start going out to see what what you get back so that in year three you can jump right in but right now keer has exclusive operation the clubhouse you can't just take it away from them right my uh my math indicates that the property when you include in the debt service is not making money if we do this if somebody else doesn't make money they're not going to stick around and we're going to be stuck with again the albatross the last I'm sorry no please the last I checked it was costing the average households I think it was $68 a year so it's not you know to have an amenity like that in town it's not an exorbitant amount of money but it is $68 a year and that's the average so you've got people who pay probably two and three times that people maybe who pay less than that but but in talks that I've been privy to in years past is if no one's going to come in unless we give them longevity to be there Kemper we have this transaction with Kemper because it's a couple years out of clip in order to make a more beneficial transaction for the township you got to go out 20 20 years who's no one's going to invest millions of dollars in that property like mcl's invested with the county property unless we give them a long-term situation so you know these are the challenges of owning property and you know again I made that vote and I'm I'm still well listen at the time things change you know no one expected Co ironically because of Co um golf took off and we start making a profit on the golf portion but we have to we have we own a building and we need to figure out how we're going to keep that maintained and uh are are alternatives for it yeah one of the Alternatives we could just put the whole darn thing up for sale and see if we can what the price we can get and start paying off this debt big time because we owe like $13 million on that at some of the highest interest rates well that any of us I don't I think that ship sailed once you took the first round unless you don't draw down on this Green Acres that the million 50 or whatever you know oh oh no no we would sell it as as uh deed restricted that you couldn't develop it and that would that would fit with got need somebody toon still I mean basically you can only sell it for the county if that's your goal because it still would have to be a public open space as Green Acres you couldn't sell it to a private Country Club that's correct that's correct and that's that's we're thinking they're probably not the only ones that that might be interested in this but we won't know until we send out an RFQ but that would that would uh at least uh cut some of the Heming that's that's going on in the township right now and if you recall the you know reason why I voted to purchase it is because at the time there it was going to get developed into single family homes so oh not single family homes um 1500 units so that's why I made that decision at that time if there's another buyer that would do uh that we don't forget there's $600,000 in Revenue tax revenue we would lose if the county was to take over that property and we lose control of the S of the property we also baked in the tax appeals from both Rock Spring and Montclair so you know yeah we had the tax appeals million dollar heat or something that you know got baked into the purchase price which was consistent with the appraisal that's all own residential you they could just sold it to a private developer who you know you I've talked about build there's remedy I mean they wouldn't have built 300 single family homes they would have come in and put a highrises and you know because of the 20% affordables and they would have got away with it especially with that much land you know they stay way far away from steep slopes and they have access to a County highway I mean they would have got it no sorry thank you council president um this property was purchased in 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 until 2024 we did not apply for Green Acres it was applied for by Millennium who is a professional um Grant um wrer writer they obviously didn't do a good job in doing this grant if if key parts of a green um Acres application were omitted I part of the original I also spoke with the mayor right after I was elected and told her and and these people were with me told her directly that the that the application was not complete and she told me that is not true the application is complete and we have already received the money well you still haven't received the money because the application is not complete so My Philosophy is you know trust in God but lock your door and if we we want to trust you we want to believe that you are going to preserve 138 Acres but frankly for five years this application has been hanging if you get this done and maybe it's at a capital price to get the survey done get it done before round five or get it or get it um round two um on February 5th but we have a responsibility to be clear with our public and to and to you know protect the Public's interest and I hear discussion on carving out and uh you know I want to be 100% sure before we go for applying for round two of what could then be a carved out region I want to be sure that we are preserving it so council president so Council uh councilwoman mayor McCartney took over last year the first application was made last year during her term yeah she didn't apply prior to because it wasn't her term I can't answer to why it wasn't applied to before that there a lot of the stuff was prior to the properties were but but other yeah we applied it to other properties so it was mayor McCartney's decision to make this application last year for this property to help bring the debt down which we did submit the application in its entirety we were now asked for subsequent documentation to complete this happens a lot in a lot of different gr uh Grant applications whether it's federal or state and so this can happen we are in the process of getting all that information to provide because we have $1,508 per of that of the of the purchase price if we apply for the next six years and I'm going to turn it over to him but but to say that we didn't do it the mayor has made this a priority of her Administration since she has taken office and she and again I will say it countless times she is in favor of keeping it in its entirety council president so I I just wanted mren I'm just going to turn over so he can talk about the finances then we can just real quick to we we don't know how much we're going to get so it may be less than six years it could be more you just keep applying until you hit the 50% Mark got award letter this year we yeah I can't for any the application was pristine we got a a million 50 we what you're talking about is drawing down on it we couldn't draw down on it and bring it into our account because we were deficient with the survey and the title and so on we never got a letter asking for it that's that's the second part the survey it was that's not the initial part of the grant that's the they send you a letter saying you now need to submit the you've been awarded a million you now need to submit these things we never got the letter I'm what the what the letter said and I have it is the letter said that this application neglected this it wasn't an add-on it wasn't a new thing it was part of the application that was never completed if if if you first of all if you look at the date on the letter it's brand new and second of all if you believe that then the state gave us a million 50 for an incomplete Grant we gave them an incomplete grant instead of rejecting it they said you know what you gave us an incomplete Grant we're GNA give you a million bucks anyway they did not give you a million bucks no money has been no you have no money we have not drawn down on it the money has been awarded the money has been awarded but they will not release the funds until the application is complete and all I'm asking for is complete the application and then I would feel I would feel that we I am protecting the public in in knowing exactly what's what of this what how much of this land is is actually going to be okay um preserved so 1055 rather than be labor this I would just suggest you vote either we're telling you up front we can't do the things you're asking by February 3rd or 5th or whatever the the deadline is we cannot do that that's not possible we have the survey from when we purchased the property but it's not a Green Acres compliance survey so this has to be done so we need to do all these we can't do by that date so either you you vote to ask for money for this property or you vote to not ask for money for this property the survey the deed and the appraisal instructions are still outstanding and we have the title we found out about it about 30 days ago the what about the appraisal uh um we're working on we have the original appraisal we're working on getting another apprais or actually two appraisals so that we we can make sure that we can draw this money down we are currently working on all these items they are being worked on we and we had this discussion with the with the uh the state on Friday it is it is Monday and we're getting these things accomplished then if they're if they're accomplished within a week or two or with or before it before our next meeting not going to happen it's not going to happen survey can't be done the the director just told you she cannot go out she has to go out to bid to get companies to do surveys we call so we can't get this done in that timely manner let's call the vote can I say something please miss Carval thank you when you apply for a d Grant or a state Grant or even a Federal grant typically the grant goes in faces first they tell you that you were awarded a number of grants for your application then after that it will come another phase in which they basically start telling you you need to submit X and Y and Z items in order to proceed with the application and then when you finally do all the steps the resolution which is what we're asking here which is part of the application then at that point you could start withdrawing on the grand funds we didn't receive the letter until our chief said it was about a month ago that's the reason why we haven't been able to do this and like I said I cannot have a survey done to you or show it to you within a week or two it's just physically impossible I'm just being realistic as a professional can we get the survey done by March probably yes but like I said it's done in faces so it is not that the the the application was missing the survey there is no way that anyone that is going to apply for a grant is going to pay a surveyor to do a survey for boundary survey that is going to be extremely expensive if you don't even know if they're going to award you anything that's why the application was submitted the way it was then comes the second phase when they start telling you yes you're going to be awarded this much but X Y and Z needs to be submitted as well and that's when you know for sure that the money that you're going to spend is because you're going to receive something in return and additionally if there any consequence only the council could convey the property to another yeah so even if it were carved out to be developed only you guys can do that may can't do that you know that so I don't know what the risk is I have an email here from State Green Acre saying hey apply it's time to apply you forget about all this other stuff just apply this you you can straighten out all the things that Miss carbal just spoke about and then we'll do the 2025 round again you're just going to continue to pay debt you'll still get the same amount of money at some point in time in the future but you're going to continue to pay debt on the bonds instead of maybe getting another million dollars to and and all these things that we're talking about for the 24 round we won't need to do them again you know now it's done they're not going to ask for it again miss carbal how much do you think the survey is going to cost us it depends I could reach back out to the person who did the original survey when the township closed did the closing and find out how much more is it going to be for him to actually take the survey that he did and um how to say this add whatever the Green Acres requirements are what I also going to do is also put out an RFB for someone else to do the survey I will send it to various companies because sometimes it doesn't mean that because you are doing a resurvey there going to be just less expensive no sometimes you are surprised and you see that someone else um might come at a less price typically you will think that doing a resurvey will be less expensive since they have all the control out in the field and everything else but I will see what it's going to cost us well you are a professional surveyor so $330,000 $40,000 138 Acres probably 30 at least half that's reimbursable as a s cost yes council president so to sort of go back and I'm going to reiterate really what everyone has already said but um our project acquisition cost was $12.6 Million when we made our first uh application with the supplementary funding and we're seeking 50% of that in our most recent call with D um where Council woman Ruden you're correct you know we talked about the things that we need to provide to get the actual payment of that funding um D did tell us hey for those two Green Acres of appraisals and the survey and any other additional soft cost you're going to add that to the project acquisition cost and again then it's it's you know we're gonna get 50% back presumably at some point um you know but to to sort of speak to what the chief was saying and Mr smeraldo and and our engineer um by not doing the the application on time we're just delaying funding you know for another year um you're right we are not going to get paid anything until we provide those appraisals and you know there's some other additional items that we have to enter into with D um but they're only going to pay us on the the funding applications that were made and approved and as of right now we have the 2024 funding application of 1,50,000 uh and then that's why we're seeking to do another 1,50,000 this year and next year we're going to seek the maximum as well um and when eventually all of this gets uh cleared up and we provide everything we enter into the agreement they're going to start paying down on those approved years uh so we don't want to put ourselves behind another year um because the chief is correct we're continuing to pay on this note this acquisition note of $13 million as we get that Green Acres money we're going to pay that note down the principal on that note that's why we're staying in notes we're sort of avoiding that permanent financing so that we have that flexibility um so we don't want to lose a year because I can only stay in notes for 10 years and five months um and you're right we've been in notes for a while now so you know I implore the council to to vote this in and uh as the chief said you regardless of whether it's the 138 or 130 that's that's really up to this governing body to to truly make that decision and if you don't want to do it you you simply don't make that decision in carving out um that's my my piece of thing so uh Council Ruden I I share your uh skepticism uh after everything that's going on the the reason that it took uh uh Council I'm sorry mayor uhy mayor McCartney to do this was that the township Administration spent four years trying to decide what they wanted to carve out and what they wanted to do with it as opposed to if we had just said okay we want to preserve it boom we'd have been we'd have been four four years ahead so I I'm just very concerned that it it continues to move in this direction uh I I just wonder if there's some some way that we could get somebody from the council uh in the loop like councilwoman Celina was on the call uh if we could get some sort of uh uh agreement that we we as the council can can become and stay uh more informed on on this progress as opposed to you know councilman Ruden you you uh yelled in the Wilderness for uh many weeks about this issue and you were turns out you were right so I I just wonder if there's some agreement that we can come to with the administration that we we the council at least somebody uh even if it's if we want to go formerly to a council liaison uh to U Rock Spring so that we can be more informed with what's going on and we and it will build it will build trust and build confidence that we're moving in that direction but i' like to hear anybody's thoughts on that I think that's a great idea I I think that would really build the trust to help us to say let's do this councilwoman yeah so I I asked to be on the call because I was had those detailed questions that I want to ask because again I wanted to preserve it but I also want to make sure that we're going to be able to take care of that building that's why I had asked to be on that call um any one of us want to be on a call I I'm sure the mayor would have be objected to that How would how would anybody else have known about that call huh how would anybody else have known about that call well I had asked to be involved in the Green Acres call yeah yeah I had asked because I again from the beginning I been well the last meeting well you weren't there you weren't spor in yet um just let's finish yeah so so again there you know here's why I get frustrated and again it's getting late so here's why I start getting frustrated I've I I've been very in tune to that box spring Community um and all the neighborhoods surrounding it and again this concern of trust and effort we we've all been very mindful this is was a very complex transaction and purchase we you know I'm glad the chief brought up the detail of the um tax appeals that uh the former uh owner Rock Spring and Montclair Country Club had owned those properties and we were going to have to pay out everybody forgets about those details that cost millions of dollars so we had other other uh we just didn't want to go buy a golf course I didn't want to go buy a golf course but we were up against challenges at the time and that's what occurred we also didn't just want to throw an apartment building on the property I thought the council was very mindful this going back I remember walking the property with councilwoman uh matu Brown as well and so yeah this went back a few years ago and um but we we were trying to see if we could sell carve out a part of it to pay down the debt right away and the only Act we were getting at the time where these skyscrapers that people wanted to put up there and so to the former council's uh decision making um we were protective of all those neighborhoods surrounding those properties so wasn't easy and we don't want to have to pay out that money but at the end of the day we don't want to destroy the property as well so here we are again we're all committing to 138 Acres I am providing that we can be beneficial on a a building that we own we you know so we're going to have to be able to take that building and be able to do something with it um we have to take care of it most of it has to get replaced so we know we don't have the money for that with Green Acres you have the right to um restore or even even demolish as long as you're staying within the same footprint you you are correct however my issue was as council president stated before we don't have that Capital to take on a project like that we will have to get a vendor to take on a project like that so I wanted to make sure that we're able to do that so if we preserve that that is was the million-dollar question for me or maybe $12 million question for me was can we do that can we take on a vendor that that that will put that kind of investment if we gave them a long-term uh lease we're able to do that do we have to carve that piece out and sell it off or whatever we need to do so that was the question so I don't think that's just terrible thing to ask to get an answer on I I also think if you make a carve out you you have conflicting interest you'll have somebody running a golf course and somebody running a Banquet Center fighting over parking you know it it's a recipe for disaster so I think when you out with the RFP and short answer to the councilwoman's question is you're not going to know until you do an RFP you're not going to know what you get do an RFP I mean it's probably either going to be keer or TR they're the two big industry leaders around the country that do these kind of jobs and yeah there's not many really many out there that do it and there's probably a few others but they're the two major U Industries industry leaders um again you know it's it's it's it's entirely up to council I mean I don't you know the administration welcomes a liaison open space count you're the open space representative if you'd like to be on it councilwoman castelino you know you you've already been involved you wish to continue beginning I'd like to continue you select them on your own you know it's not my place to pick so you we'll take up to two because at three we get into an opma act I I I would ask to like myself and counil when Roden could both serve as second that right hold on let me write that down but does that work for you Council to to to become a liaison and with the with the idea that going to be knowing what's going on in terms of progress yeah do you I think I know what's going on okay didn't didn't mean to imply that you didn't no no I'm just but you would have direct access to you'd be your Council a on to the administration sure but with regard to to be available for all things Rock Spring not just green a no no no I'm I'm not trying to do that uh you just had to be like these meetings would be during the day as zo and usually they're well meetings I've been to I've been on one and they're on Zoom yeah it it just seems to me the information or the the progress that you want is not going to be able to be provided in the time frame that you want we would all like not just you but we would all like and uh so the question I guess for you is is whether that's that's acceptable that you get more direct access uh well I'd always like to have more direct access that's not a problem but I I still have a problem with approving this resolution because this this is incomplete and we're going again and and I I have a hard time just believing that it's it's going for 138 Acres even though you're saying that the mayor has has pledged this there's still some quite a bit of discussion um on a car Val okay so again only the council can do that how can the council do that well we would have to we have to approve every every transfer of of property uh that the township does weo by resolution right but this is 138 Acres that's supposed to be in open space right and it will be so if there was any car Val out for the property for the structure we would have to approve that if the appraisal comes back for 130 acres and that is applied to Green Acres then that's what Green Acres will give money on it will just reduce the amount based on based on that so we don't have to approve that that will already just take place and we are out of the loop on that you are you doing 138 she said yes were you are you surveying 138 Acres uh director me personally no yeah we can't we can't afford to let you go survey 138 Acres we need you in the office so Council can the resolution is a legal question I'm yeah kind of going to head back and forth can the resolution be amended to indicate that all 130 Acres will be 38 138 Acres will be included in the request I would think it could right well that that I understand but that's what was in the original request okay 138 Acres yes but now there is discussion of a carve out and I want to make sure your resolution will indicate that 138 acres are are what is being asked for council president I I just received an email actually you received went to the chief you and everybody and uh councilwoman asmer gber Michael says I want to clarify my position regarding New Jersey Acres open space funding for the Rock Spring Golf course I strongly oppose carving out any portion of the property and committing to preserving every acre that's from Council yeah so now we have the entire Council and the mayor committed to keeping I think we all agree on that we just want to make sure that it happens yes yes so so the council the council is the as the chief said is is the only one who can actually approve a car about and since you're all committed to not carving it out I think you have the commitment amongst yourselves to say that we're not doing this so we're putting an application to help pay that everything down and we're just continuing with the payment add it to the resolution you're asking you're asking for the funding for 138 Acres you add that wording to the resolution the entire property the entire property entire and then settles yeah and the only reason I was concerned was if the Green Acre said no you can't do that and then we I think it's our responsibility say okay we're not going to be able to uh give this to a vendor to make Capital Improvements for us now it's on us so again what do you know should we carve it out that was my only my only uh but either way it would have to appear for you as a council yeah that was my only worry and it's something we should all worry about because how do you make this Capital Improvements if we can't do that that work so I think we should move this vote uh and move on I'll make a motion there's already excuse me there's already a motion in a second to name two Liaisons to the Rock Spring Golf Club that we did not vote on so can we vote on that first and it was uh councilwoman celino and councilwoman Ruden you okay that with that councilwoman all right so we're going to vote on that first uh councilwoman celino yes councilwoman I'm sorry councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman scar okay so that motion carries now we're gonna put the whole 138 acres in the language right yeah yes to amend that resolution all right so first we'll vote on the amendment to add that language language Tire property under 38 acres okay did you get that Mr Moo need the resolution it doesn't matter as long as it's in there right don't it's your call here I'll put reference yeah phras entire property and 100 and the phrase 38 language now please and then we'll vote on the resolution itself to put it I don't want to vote on the resolution I'm sorry I don't want to vote on the resolution without seeing what the language is you're gonna he's going to tell you what it is you can do it you yes so for the the second paragraph on the says to fund the following projects pertaining to the entire 138 acre property property reference and then that's okay can I would like to add language that this resolution um explicitly prohibits any car out that's something important yeah that would be if there were ever a car out we would have a resolution in front of you to approve that yeah they can't just do that do it but the the application could go back into Green Acres with less than 138 Acres not without our resolution right no that's why we just put we putting it in there that's what you're putting in the resolution and so what why can't we say that no portion of this property will be excluded resolution is authorized it's notoh as needs the acreage um can you add the language in perpetuity because with Green Acres appli ations you can go back and amend it during the funding process and I don't want this amended during the funding process then what green green thec yes the application can be amended over time especially as this is a long payout this is one of their largest projects um 12 million so the payout would be over right now over six years um but if at any point we come back and there is a carve out in this then they will just pay less money but you'll still have preserved some acreage so I would like some language in here that says that this is pertaining to the throughout the entire application process but the car out would have to be approved by you by this we not we might not know we few years there's going to be other council members but how would you not know it has to go in front of you no no she's about six years from now right okay year six you finally got you can change you can change the Green Acres application throughout the course of the life of this stop government be yeah sub you know mean I guess if a future Council you can't find a future entity in year six want to do something different yes yes we can if we if we write that right now that this land the public believes this land is to be preserved Council can always change resolutions well you can't if this land is meant to be preserved you can't just go around and turn turn that around if it's receiving Green Acres money it needs to stay preserved is that true contradicting what you're saying no I'm not I'm saying that I think the director she knows the answer you could add the language about imp perpetuity to the deed so when you file the deed it runs with the land yeah but I'm saying is like if if you want to add that language about being in imp perpetuity you will need to add it to the deed so when it's filed it will run with the land and when will that be filed approximately I'm sorry approximately when do you think that would be filed that will be filed once Green Acres approve everything and then eventually will be filed at the county court house I put it in it was always this is like a yeah I would think I would think the Green Acres you don't want to say that's the No No I guess you could say I guess you could say the 138 Acres there's only oh yeah yeah absolutely I just don't knowf they they have a whole list of what you can and can't do but you you definitely can't do anything residential or anything like that that's that's a given basically anything you do has to be in support of recreational aspect and to reiterate the mayor is committed to 138 Acres no carve out she has said so she's explicitly said so she's communicated to us to that to us up to to tonight saying this so I mean we're we're we're saying this on the record so this is this is fact this is actual and this is what she wants and this is and she she's on board with with the council she wants to preserve this proper then why can't we add with with no because this is this is an application this is not a a this is an enabling resolution it's an enabling resolution for us to do an application that's all this is can that language be eded or is that you don't think you can do do you can't say you can't say that forever so that that's not something that you're just authorizing us to put that application in to keep this money that's going to go into perpetuity that's what you're doing right now not only it's also frankly any c just come well that's what IED that's you can't find you can't find Future govern it can't be added to the deed right and and if our application is our application can't be anything less than 138 Acres cuz you're us I'm I'm uh I'm going to move this to a vote okay please Madam cler okay is there a motion to approve 19-25 as amended as amended did we make the amendment oh we didn't vote on the amendment yet sorry so let's vote on the amendment first um is there a motion to approve the amendment yes yes okay ex second okay okay councilwoman celino yes councilman kovia yes councilwoman Ruden no councilwoman Scarpa yes okay so the motion carries and now is there a motion congratulations to not done yet not done yet one more that was for the amendment all right so is there a motion to approve 19-25 I make a motion to approve 19-25 I'll second it thank you Council yes councilman yes councilwoman Ruden put the change no councilwoman Scarpa yes okay I know I got it motion carries thank you that was now you can go thankk have a good night she's number 23 Miss BR why are you still here yeah why are you okay I need to explain that the real presentation will be at the next meeting and if you're looking at something special that I would be absolutely willing to provide whatever it is you need okay I can explain you real quick about how the budget presentation goes let's just hold off on that I I I think uh she's she has time so she has a time constraint to get this budget passed no I I understand yeah Miss Ruden uh sorry councilwoman Ruden uh pulled this and uh want to give her a shot and not try to anticipate what she's uh what she's concerned about stuff that you guys are talking about on fine okay so I have concerns with with the budget um is this the time you're going to answer all the concerns she can or she can go home or we can ask her the next time yeah I think we should ask you the next time but I I will just briefly tell you my concerns um I have compared the budget from this year to last year um I noticed that total operation costs are going up 13.6% microphone and I'm sorry that uh total operation costs are going up 13.6% and the marketing and um promotions which is I I assume the most important part of what this um Alliance does is going down 14.4% as well as the visual Improvement is going down 7.5% wait what's going down visual Improvement is going down big budget lines 7.5% so I would like to understand those major changes I also um I'm I'm just a little surprised that some of the numbers from the um projected for 2024 and the projected for 2025 are almost identical I mean down to to down to the penny I don't know how that can be I'm also concerned that the township contribution um seems to um I know it's it's the same but over time it has not gone down as it um as it does in other municipalities where this should eventually be a self- sustaining um entity um in addition there are certain things that that in this budget that you're asking for approval for today um not today or oh not today yeah this just first for the presentation I thought what you were doing was informing her of the of the areas that she should focus on okay so those those are those are things that I'm I'm I'm calling out um the other the other um thing is that I I have I really would like a more detailed report right so what happens is that this is the first meeting so the budget goes out it gets advertised after you all decide what your second meeting is and then the full presentation happens at the January 28th meeting okay so provide one more thing we provide a pass this is how we spent the money that we allocated last year and this is our proposal for how we're going to spend the money this year with lots of stats and reports and all kinds of good information when are you having your public meeting the public meeting is at the council meeting on January 28th which you just decided tonight that is when the public can speak out absolutely we notice all of our property owners and it's one of the notices that happens with the chronicle and store Ledger okay and do you also notice them by mail we we mail all of the property owners and notice that the meeting is happening at the January 28th meeting okay um by ordinance that's what we have to do yes that's that's what I'm asking about okay um I so I do want to see a much more detailed um yeah uh assessment um um there also is supposed to be a five-year projection of goals and a strategy for the implementation of of the alliance um in that report I hope you'll have that fiveyear report to present um we have our goals and objectives but there should be a fiveyear a five-year projection of goals part part of the budget will have so our five years is tolling last year so we have built into this this new budget and uh the organization section of the budget will be a forward-looking and strategic plan that lists our Five-Year Plan okay I'd also like to see the taxes the tax um the 20203 uh tax report in that in that presentation and also um you're supposed to have an annual audit of books can you present that as well we do okay well so we the books are the books are closing as soon as we get the final check from the township so what we have uh documentation for is the 20123 budget close but yeah we have a berson's are Auditors and they do they do our books every year okay so I'd like to I'd like to see the tax return um and also I really would appreciate if if you know some of this information was up on your website because when you go look at your website um the 2023 taxes is not online there's a link to it but nothing comes up yeah we fil that with um the state of New Jersey somebody texting me um I don't know if uh if we can put that online but I mean we can it's no no problem okay and I I would also really like to understand um the grants that you're receiving um how many you've received how it's been how it's been distributed and um and I'd also I'd also like to kind of understand I know that you have a full-time job and I would really like to get sort of an assessment of how you spend um those 60 hours a week so that's those are all my questions yeah pretty much all all all my time is spent at Town Hall on Main Street yeah go down you can see okay so look I'm new here and it's the first time I'm reviewing this and you know I know Miss BR has invited you to come and visit us and we were supposed to meet before the holiday I'm sorry that we didn't next meeting come to a meeting especially if your meeting is anything like this meeting the last meeting I uh try to provide as much info ahead of time so that you all have as much information as you need okay and and is there an annual report yes okay yeah there there's a report and a narrative okay um yeah so this because of by ordinance we have to pull the meeting over Council meetings this is just the announcement this is our total budget and then the real presentation happens after 20 days fine thank you and I would just like to add to that we I'd like to get the information a week ahead of time yes absolutely so that I have time to well it should so after your note today normally it goes out on the Thursday before the meeting um but as soon as I gather specific parts of it I'll pick notes to you guys so you'll get it like even before that Thursday right okay um and if you want to sit down and come see and sit down with me and Amy we'd love to do that too okay thank you so much when's your next meeting Miss bril yeah you should come to our our downtown Alliance meeting are you have the presentation from Nish Wayne at that meeting say it again the Nish Wayne pres so they say you know I'm not sure I think that that was the plan but I think that we talked about a special meeting to cover just what Nishu was talking about with walking Main Street all weekend I mean all summer so I don't know if it's going to be a presentation we have to move a lot of business at our meeting so we thought that it might be too much time could you just advise us when you're going to do that because I'd like to participate well I think it's between us and economic development that if we could do a joint meeting and you still on economic development I'll be coming Joe's going to be taking over but right so yeah I think that there was discussion about joint joint meeting because he wants to present the same information to downtown as to Economic Development okay thank you I'm sorry that it took so late to get I listen there's a lot and there's a lot of nuanes that she'll explain to you because she transfers Council celo has educated me on the last couple years thank you very much I'm going to ask if we can I know everybody wants to go home can we take a three minute break right now and I'll be back please I need some aqua need water thank you I don't even know e you are live uh welcome back West Horn sorry for that uh we're going to try to plow ahead here um uh I'm not clear which which is our next next resolution is it seven oh well what we should vote on is the 2325 for the downtown west orangel okay so this is 2325 right is there a motion to approve so moved second thank you councilwoman celino yes councilman kovak excuse me just a second counc we voting we're voting on approval on first reading of the downtown Orange Lines if we vote against it next time really matters okay yeah this just gets us to the second meeting second read great great right so uh your your vote is pending councilwoman okay councilwoman Scarpa yes thank you uh the motion carries all right uh going back up up is uh resolution 925 resolution authorizing memor memorandum of understanding between the township of West Orange and family connection s adapt youth leadership Coalition councilwoman uh Ruden you pulled that yes I I I pulled this because of a number of reasons I have questions about this um this program that are not answered in in this resolution and and in the attachment so what I would like to do is to have this group come and spend five minutes with us as te uh in front of the Council so that I can ask a number of questions learn more about this program and and feel um better able to judge whether or not this is worth the money that we're spending on it and I go I think that there are other other organizations as well that that provide similar Services um I'm really not sure how this one was picked um but I I would like to speak with them directly because I'm approv I otherwise I'd be approving almost a $99,000 oh $8,300 expenditure that I'm not sure what we're getting whether the children are getting the the value question yeah I have similar concerns I'd like to know specifically who is delivering the credentials of the people that are delivering this program this service they have any kind of medical background and also what the curriculum looks like so adapt is through the county um I don't know all that much about it they've just always handled this first through Essex County right um I can ask that you know they're I I've known them I've dealt with them but I haven't been you know in the classroom with them and so on I can have them I can ask them if they'll come yes give you present a lot of young people that were not that credentialed yes um so I was concerned and my last question table it or no I'd like to bring them I'd like to bring them to present to us so that we know what we're voting on okay just just a second C so I didn't get a chance because I wanted to to talk to Mr Moore um I just why why isn't the school district why they why aren't they getting the grant why did it go through us is this Municipal Alliance I believe this is in in La of anti candles I don't know on an available to talk about it but I did get the answers to Mr kak's questions today but they were more financial so I don't know that they're going to address either councilwoman's concerns Chief this this is part of the municipal Alliance Grant that's what I thought yeah the dedr grant the drug enforcement demand reduction I think it stands for um this is this is part of that Municipal LS okay and the municipal lines in in years past have gotten grants for uh substance abuse may I make a suggestion that along with inviting app to come here that we provide them with the additional questions that we have and perhaps somebody could act as the central person and then send them on to Chief abot if if you would be the one that' be contacting them I can reach you out I I I know them you know I want to know about curriculum and who is doing the the program who's delivering do you want us to send you the questions yeah if you have questions you'd like to send I can I can send them out to we'll we'll work together to get the questions out uh question also council president could we do this during conference agenda to save time in in ular meeting yeah that could be have a light conference agenda probably better off doing the presentation of conference agenda do you think um I'm just trying to save us time yeah between and don't have anything else book between 6:30 and 7 do it then yeah how long do you think this question is going to take question the questioning of adapt whoever that they send as a representative here that's what we're talking about I don't know 10 minutes 10 10 minutes that's all yeah five or 10 minutes let's not worry about conference agenda let's just stick it back on and I think we need to sa time yes I I I'm with you uh unless there's any more discussion I think we should move a vote to table table is there a motion to table yes I make a motion to table it thank you second thank you councilwoman celino yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scara okay the motion carries to table okay 1025 resolution authorizing Second Amendment to lease agreement West Orange Arts Council councilwoman scorpa you pulled that yes um I wanted a little more information about this um you know it looks like it ended July 31st no payments were made and why are we renting for $2,000 a month this space on Valley Street when we should really be striving to use some of the some of the make the most of some of the assets we have I mean we have the Toby cat Center that wouldn't cost any money why don't we use that for uh to display the artwork and so the the uh Arts Council pays an town has historically supplemented their rent they have their things on display they're secured when they're not open whereas you know Toby cat Center is rentable people can have parties there so all the stuff would have to be taken and put away and secured somewhere um the hands was remiss in their timeliness of billing the township and we owe them back money for rent they wanted a large increase which I didn't think was worth it and I spoke with the legal department Mr Tran negotiated them down to where we are now we got a month-to-month lease out of them eventually we do hope to relocate the Arts ccel either to the new library or the old library depending on the space we're in the middle of of a um feasibility study for all our space with an architectural firm to determine who will best go where and the Arts Council will very likely be a part of that but for now they need a home and this is it yeah I would like to see that done sooner or later to me this is really an expenditure that we should not be making well I mean it's been for years you know I know problem there's a lot of things that have been for years that when we look at our budget in February we need to go over find to but you know in our fairness we didn't have the space for them before that we may have now depending on how this feasibility study pans out okay but this we should look at this very carefully when we do our budget and that's not all you know again that rent is not all being that's some of it's being paid by the or Council it's a split I don't I don't think it's 5050 I think the town gets the line share but but the Arts Council does put money toward the rent what are they using this space for other than displaying their art so they have all kinds of Affairs and things down there um I mean I've been there but it's not just the displaying the art it's also they're doing programming they have a little shop yep yes I guess that's where they get their funding for their what kind of revenues do they have do we have any reports on their revenues what kind of revenues do they have the Arts Council I I couldn't tell you I don't know I'm sure we can they don't make a yearly report to us they probably should they should obvious definitely I think you can ask them for it if they're you know if they're a tax exempt organization their records have to be open to the public anyway so yeah no I would love to see the numbers on that yeah would anticipate that it's all money but no but you're supplementing the money so I think anytime we supplement money disagree with that report are you saying that that the that West Orange is delinquent in the payments yeah that West Orange is delinquent in the payments for this we weren we weren't build by hand so to say we were delinquent we weren't really build and then they started billing us and then we kind of got into the well maybe we should move so it went on another month or two before we kind of got to an agreement on reduced price from what they were looking for up until July 31st of 2024 were they billing you I I don't know exactly the dates of when they build and didn't right now I mean I was kind of working with Melanie mayor secretary who was ony Arts Council and Mr trank to sort of resolve this issue but I don't know the exact dates of when we were build and weren't buil Mr T you Chief we were paying monthly um as per the the previous lease up until July 31st I think when that lease EXP ired and as Chief said you there wasn't timely negotiation Andor billing from from hands so that's why we're we're we're at right now so how quickly do you see us getting out of here and how quickly do you see us getting out of here and and moving to something where it's not going to cost us well the first thing we have to do is um get the feasibility study done to see who should go where and they're aware that the Arts Council needs a home so we can get out of this arrangement and then you know there's going to be money that needs to be spent to make the space in both those locations habitable right now it's just kind of space budget yet what about the library I'm sorry what about the library both both libraries but the one Library that's already in existence they they can't use the new library the new library the new library has space but it's not habitable it's not you know built out the DPW we got to relocate engineering Department right but one piece at a time this is costing us money right now so why so why can't they move quickly over to the library because it would be great if we could do all this quickly but as you know you have you have to hire an architect first of all you have to determine who's going to go there right we don't even know that no I'm just just the art put the art art there yeah why why not move the art center to library it's not habitable the library is not what you could do is move their art to display to the library and put it around the library that would be nice they wouldn't be able to get their whole site they could have meetings there at least we're not pay in money yeah one at a time they could they could they could sorry I'm sorry to jump in um they could but they wouldn't get what they're receiving now but it's something's better than nothing that's a choice that this is a month-to-month lease it's not well we're paying 2,000 a month yes we're not paying the form though they're paying you know how much are we paying oh we need to know that yeah we need to know exactly what the numbers are how much this is questing the township before I could vote for so so traditionally uh the Arts Council has paid us $300 per month uh in the previous lease the most recent monthly payment was $1,780 so you know net we were paying 480 no no no it's it's $2,000 now um that we're paying per month the the initial uh request from H was was a much greater number yeah uh and and we would be responsible for taxes and ins you know all these sorts of things um you said no way yeah I think we should cut our losses now and move to the library I I think part of the issue too is that there's already um programs that are are booked and and on the calendar so that was you know that that's that's part of you know why we're sort of continuing on on a month-to-month B they have a community room though at the library they can have their their things there their events there there's that community room that they're trying to get everybody to use I I think we ought to move it there as soon as possible well who signed up to be the new liaison tonight who's that I think asir you want to let your have a conversation with yeah she should they only give us 300 the the Arts Council gives 300 and the township typically pays 1,700 is that what you're saying so we we're the the lesie um so we make the payment to hands uh and so we pay the full amount and then it's offset with a contribution that comes from Arts Council which you know in the last few years that I've looked at was $300 per month I think if I recall you know and I don't know don't please don't quote me on this I think Melanie said they can probably do like or 800 um so you know there was an increase in the rent there' be increase in their contribution I think we're going to have a tough budget season and this is a real good place to start we have a beautiful new library there's no artwork on the walls they have a community room that is very very appropriate for their events I think we should do it sooner rather than later I have no dog in fight yeah but but there's one thing though the I believe the arrangement with the library is they set their own schedule I don't think we could just tell them you could take them for the community room I don't think it's booked that often that community room yeah I'm not saying it's not impossible but you just can't assume like you gota sit with and that Council woman could do that yeah and I know she was concerned about this when I spoke with her so maybe she can we can get right on that and table this oh okay I'm going to call this because uh we want to either approve this lease disapprove it or table it as opposed to talking about where we're going to move that so i' I'd like to unless anybody else has any questions about the lease I have one question to Mr jiac thank you for all of the financial information you sent us when I was on the council the lease agreement uh stated that we were also paying the all the utilities are we I didn't see any charges for utilties site so we are responsible for the the psng um electric and and gas I'm assuming there's some some gas uh Appliance there and it said internet services right we're paying for internet and we also pay uh Comcast for internet and phone I think that's like $172 a month um and the psng ranges between like $40 and $904 and $100 a month say like $75 average per month and then there's an alarmed fee that we we pay as well security Sy Excuse excuse me folks just one at a time the security system was there when we were using it as a police substation correct or does anybody we still do that's a diff that's the northern part of the building the Arts council's a little further south oh I didn't realize that the police still had the substation I thought that was the tra located yeah yeah but I didn't realize we were using that for other than uh storage for vehicles but you're saying oh okay so that that is the U the converted gas station right yes but you're saying that we also have we meaning the police have a piece in the same or jent property to where the uh Arts Council is now correct okay so that's I believe we own that I don't I don't know I wasn't involved with the financial Arrangements of how that worked out you know the town did the clean up and the bill I mean that goes all the way back to the McCain Administration um but I don't think we pay any I mean we'd have to pay our own utilities I'm sure but I don't think we pay any type of rent there right the no no I don't know if we own it or it's just a we get to occupy in perpetuity I think we own it I think we own it okay so I I want to move a vote unless there's something else any other questions about I do have one one last question if the art display was moved could we rent a smaller space we tried to find find we can't really find any place it's pretty small what they have and you know as much as that's not you know anything to sneeze at it's you know it's $2,000 a month I get it but it's in a scheme of commercial real estate but it's one unit you cannot they can't rented as two units right like just the The Little Shop would it say oh I think it's one storefront it's one storefront okay yeah Joe Albert even tried to find some space for them in one of his buildings that he was going to donate but he we just couldn't make it work um so if we vote for the if we don't vote for this tonight that means they get tossed out I I mean obviously if you voted down and they got to they're gonna have to we're gonna have to pay whatever rent we have of course and then if they get tossed out I there's something probably in at least about a 30-day notice or 60-day not whatever it is we're going to have to give them the notice and P that right what's that but this is month to month anyway right so we voted so I mean they'd have to be out by February 1 but we'd have to still pay for do that you have no plan yeah I I would not support that yeah we need to have a decent transition uh any other questions I'll make a motion to to approve it to approve okay is there a second we could canc second okay um councilwoman celino yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden Ruden to approve this resolution it's a monthmonth lease so you could work on finding them in a location right vot it down now you're just tossing them out like to the to the street Cur yes kicking them to the curve yes they would be a starving Art Council instead of a starving artist yes a lot of storing artists what is your vote councilman yes okay thank you councilwoman Scarpa yeah I will vote Yes but I wanted on the record that they need to um quickly look at getting thems over to the library are you going to talk to councilwoman yeah gu on okay okay 1625 resolution awarding an extension of contract in 2025 for an additional one-year period to Rich tree service and downs tree service for emergency and and Non-Emergency tree services 2025 uh councilwoman Ruden you pulled that yes I did um I would uh I have I have a couple of questions on this um I'd like to know how much we paid rich is Tree Service downs and bular um for the past year and or years how many years have these um tree companies been working in town I have to find out for you it's not um something I know off the top of my head do do they have a contract where we have to they have a a budget that we have to meet or is it just each time they're they're invoicing do they have a cap do they have a minimum so this they were the lowest responsible bidder as it says in the last sent so that's how how they were awarded um what the what their costs are did that in the uh so supporting documentation Downs in downs and bu yeah there's a schedule there they've been working with the township at least as far as you know I can see since at least 20 2009 um uh Rich Tree Service started with the township back in 2016 uh regarding payments um Rich's Tree Service last uh in the most recent calendar year 2024 we paid them $88,700 and and buer hopefully I'm saying that correctly uh was 88,89 so all sort of roughly in the same neighborhood okay and how many trees did they remove that I do not know sorry I'm not speaking like that I do not know um I can reach out to the the Public Works director uh and our tree expert uh and hopefully get that number for you for 2024 can you um please give me the number for bular again sure it is 88 825 yes 88 825 okay I'd like to know is there a record of the trees that are coming down are they being logged in any that's funny um record only at this time of night is it funny you should Branch out of comedian yeah there you go oh it to me oh stop than you oh wouldn't you think that was funny some many puns um there may be uh on on the invoices I I will speak with uh our our qualifi purchasing agent Paula Reynolds to pull the invoices for 2024 for the three tree companies um that information might be on those invoices otherwise uh you know we'll speak to the public works director and tree expert see if we can put together information how many okay thank you so much um also um do they have a minimum that we have to meet with each of these like they need to we need to pay them no no there's nothing like that with any of these contracts it's when we need them they come out they do the work they invoice us uh there's no like retainer or or you know you got to give us 20,000 minimum per year okay when they work they get paid so um I would like to make sure that these companies are working in compliance with our with our uh tree ordinance um where these trees come down I know the township right now were um is not claims that they're exempt from our tree ordinance but they're in fact not so if trees are coming down we need to at at the minimum be counting and and and knowing where they're coming down um frankly I have seen these guys in town almost like every day they're doing a lot of work um which means a lot of removals and so I I would like to um understand why that amount of we're spending over almost $300,000 removing trees in West Orange that's far more than the amount that we ever budget for planting trees question though is it all removal or is it also trimming they probably have to trim around the powerin yeah things like that although although the power company usually does that so maybe not um you've seen them in town you know these are these are Big Tree companies so they can be doing work for homeowners too it may not all be right count I know are the count I stopped them I asked them they say they're doing work for the town whenever no whenever I do CU I'm just nosy that way but um listen if you look at you know the emergency rate and the non-emergency rate and you figure it out that's not a lot of work to get to that th those numbers you know $300,000 at at $300 an hour these are all for the uh tree removal services emergency tree removal services this is not for tree pruning um yeah for these three companies so I mean this seems like we're spending a of a lot of money removing emergency and dead trees so I I think we need more information before we continue this or their contracts need to be revised and there need to be more language in there so that these these companies are in compliance with our tree ordinance May R did the contract so is what you're saying you do not want to I do not want to approve them until we can have a full look at what their contract is and to make sure that we sit down with these that an extension it's not with these vendors and make sure that I mean is are is there work just being authorized by Mr Kip you know that you don't this the contracts expire so you don't have yeah you when do they expire uh is it like everything else we get it like the week before I mean we shouldn't be getting things that's so but but it has to stop which is why I said it you know me I try to be kind probably expired already because it's same for 2025 so oh okay yeah I can actually get the um current contract tomorrow appreciate thank you and then we can vote on this next meeting if but but we do need to meet with them and I'd really like to understand who's authorizing $300,000 worth of tree removal um the next one is basically the same yes I don't know if you want to do them both yeah I would also suspect that a lot of this is ash trees oh gosh they're being taken down proactively they and and don't forget we have to do l park under the M Municipal Services agreement we have to take care of trees on the Long Park okay well when we get that information we'll know why so many trees are coming down and we be a bit better budget too okay so we need a motion for both of these resolutions to table so is there a motion to table 16 yeah I'll make a motion to table thank you I'll second thank you councilwoman Celina yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scara yes okay motion carries and then 1725 same motion to table yes second okay um councilwoman celino yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes okay just a quick just a quick question as follow did you get down all of the uh request that the councilwoman Ruden made uh she was asking for ious pieces of information uh I sent the the tree service already I I earlier today I emailed you the you had requested information on the the tree yes expens I sent that to you you're the best okay you know when Michelle I'm sorry councilwoman celino says nothing goes fast in government I know not anymore doesn't know Mr DET right you did send me a lot of of information but the questions that I asked tonight just tonight yeah owe you other things but okay um but the tree service I did send to your West AR thank you so much okay 1825 yes resoltion offer go ahead okay sorry resolution authorizing an award of contract to Frank galbreth and Son excavation and demolition for tree planting 2025 councilwoman rud and you pulled that I did um I did not mean to oh that's a good thing let's vote well I would like to ask the question because this is a this is a Monumental cost for like it's like $134,000 for 240 trees 142,000 yeah exactly that's what I said uh it's it's a lot of money and I'm trying to figure out why it is these are these are diameters of two inches or less um are we getting the best price is anybody familiar with this this contract we went to bid on it at council's request we did we were going to use a co-op Council requested we went to bid instead and this was the lowest responsive bidder when you say Co-op you mean somebody that's already pre-approved for the pricing would have cheaper the type because the type excuse me excuse me I have no problem uh so so why did we just throw out the co-op as a and then go out into the the public did we think we were going to get a better price Council gabber Michael not here to explain so I don't want to really speak for her but she was very adamant that we go to bid on this rather than go with the co-op because she felt we may it a lower price I don't know that we ever got a price from the co-op um I'd have to ask Paul of that M Reynolds but we definitely went with the with the bid I remember that I think it would be interesting to get a bid from the co-op just to because we're being asked many times to use the co-op versus bidding things and I don't really understand it the finances of it i' love to get a sense of the thing that you know we've explained in the past is that you may save money but there's you know there's limited staff here like we have to prepare a bid it's a lot of work you know it's a lot of work for PA basically doing this and you know everything you go to bid on requires a lot of work so you know it's good to use the co-op but basically the whole process has been vetted by State or the moris count Co-op or one of the other co-ops that you are typically getting the lower price could somebody come in lower yeah it's always possible but you know when you when you weigh in how many times you're going to prepare bids and all the time and energy put into that you're probably not really saving any money in the long run the resolution indicates that there is watering it is anybody familiar with the request or proposal that includes watering because it's the the number of waterings match the trees the number of trees being created in the bid spec on page 82 and 83 it's said it it actually talks about the maintenance that was one of the questions I I receiv received from Council and and I sent it to her and in the bid spec it talks about how when they're planted um they will be watered there's a certain cycle how many days are going to be watered specifically they me mentioned the summer months you know the warmer months and they also guarantee that these trees will be viable for two years or they will be replaced that's important yeah because if you don't that's where the cost that's where the cost you have to maintain it you have to water them or they're going to die they're little teeny trees unfortunately is there any other discussion well the only other thing I thank you thank you Mr smala for for answering those questions um did you did you send the list of where these are being open I said a separate one Mr Kip what Mr Kip said was uh to your question regarding when they're going to be planted he said it really is going to be dependent on the weather um because of it you know we have a late uh spring or you know really long winter we' have to um wait to place these and he did send a I did send you a spreadsheet of what he got you did and thank you very much for getting that to me uh do we know about the watering schedule oh it was actually I was a little concerned with the watering schedule it's like stops in October or something I believe so yes I I don't know so is that is that wise yeah sprinklers usually time I sprinkle up in October they're probably relying on the fall rain I don't know yeah oh we had drought we have no contingency styles used to do we can encourage residents that you know have trees P planted in front of their homes to water them they would you would think okay question question so the root barrier is that when they support the tree is where they have the holes holding it up so they get a little bigger I and parents Ro might be better educated on this than I am but I believe the root barrier are to keep the roots from lifting sidewalks and blowing the curves out they're like a box that forces the roots to grow downward and then out Walter about that so it's so that it doesn't bump up the sidewalk or the streets it's a newer newer way to do to do the planting it's like when you put rebar on cement yeah keep it in but what about the support for the branches you know some of the trees the new new trees they had yeah I don't know if if that's included if they're going to be are the trees going to be supported so like they put supports in on the little trees when you first get them I I don't know I don't know I mean a pole or a piece of two pieces of wood to give it support on a young tree like that I would doubt it for that number of trees but maybe find out you could find out I'm just curious because you know you have a snowfall that first year break the branches so I I would suspect that they're going to warranty these trees for two years they're going to do everything they can to make sure that they're healthy and viable it's going to cost them a lot of money if they don't that's true so whatever whatever it takes to support it or whatever I don't know how hard each tree is but you know I'm sure they're going to do whatever it takes to to make make sure it takes okay okay for the vote move for vote Yes right is there a motion to approve 1825 so move is there a second second it thank you councilwoman castelino yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman scar yes the motion carries okay 19 2025 resolution establishing filming permit fees 2024 uh councilwoman rud and youth I believe you P yes I did all right my initials k and r okay um a couple of things with this um I appreciate that you did the research um Madam clerk thank you um but I would did a little bit more on top of that and I would um suggest that the daily filming for major Motion Picture go up to 2,000 not 1500 um the other more more important issue to me is that this uh resolution include an in an insurance um certificate for um 500,000 per person and 300,000 for property damage so a million doll liability insurance I also would like to see that the that the to the ordinance for it's just for the Feast I thought I saw it in the ordinance is it in the ordinance that that you're requiring insurance they have and they have to postp a a bond in there that they basically so so this is just so this just about it's just about the permit fee I think there's a million dollars Insurance required I see these things all the time when they come through but I I don't want to say that without reading you I just want to ask for when there is a filming permit is it reviewed by the police yes um yeah the planning department sends it to police fire um Health Department because sometimes there food trucks and things like that and building department it depends on construction there construction on site good those were my concerns so the the only thing I would say is that I would like to see the daily filming um fee raised to $2,000 per day I did compare that with other municipalities as well so so before you um raise that fee before you consider raising that fee so just so you understand that both councilwoman uh Casten and I um discussed these fees recently because this was a concern of hers prior to the change of council um the New Jersey films um um ready film ready I'm sorry uh film ready commission has made us into a recognized municipality and we were requested by the commissioner of the film ready um commission to lower our fees to be more comparable to other towns excuse me so these fees I did a study of all the T towns within municipalities of the state of New Jersey who were awarded last year which is only 14 or 15 of us um and we are comparable to all the other communities of our size or similar to the what the cost were so that's why that's where we came up with the $1,500 we were asked to reduce these fees if the council chooses to raise them just I'm just letting you know that that we were asked to do this and this was a compromise so um I just want to make sure you you understand that prior to making that decision that's one um I can withdraw that request then if that's that's a consideration and we can and it wasn't easy for me to go down because we were where we had a 5,000 and then we were in um actually One V one film company did did pay it and then we received backlash from the committee so want to say but um but we do have the right to increase next year we can look at it so we have actually Council I don't know if you're familiar with this or not but we painstakingly over the last two years have changed our ordinances took a lot of work to get to way you now can do resolutions and change so if you feel that this is not enough at any time we can say Hey listen but I know that the U we we came up with this number because of this so we can we can always address it if you we need I understand your reasoning thank you okay we take the vote okay is there a motion to approve 2025 so move yeah second okay councilwoman celino yes councilman kovia yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes okay the motion carries wonderful I now we have ordinances on first reading 2888 25 an ordinance amending certain terms in chapter 5 Section 35 of the re revised General ordinances of the township of West Orange is there a motion to introduce on first reading no moved is there a second second thank you um Council I'm sorry councilwoman castelino yes councilman Cobia yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa thank you the motion carries um I if we could uh I just want to describe to all of the audience here uh what what this is about just that was always a pet peeve of mine when I was on previously we just give the number and and vote but this is a changing language having to I I guess modernizing um uh the categories of protections um in our in our ordinance and I don't know can anybody anybody want to add there's the legislative history in the back if you want to read that no I don't do you want me to read it yes please I the township of West Orange has amended certain outdated terms such as sexual preference and has replaced the same with sexual orientation gender identity and gender expression and thank you to Stephen Johnson who who brought that to our attention and encouraged us to update our language right so the the question is do we want to go through this list of on under pending matters to to move things okay okay so under pending matters new matters Council discussion the first uh issue uh matter is ABC hearings I think we that a very long time ago but yes that was good okay one done and to be reminded that one beting is the night of a planning to yes yes so yeah which a council member so we're not doing it on the 27 I'm only suggesting because the council Council SC sits on the planning board planning board meeting that night special meeting yeah and they're going to be too long to read into to the attorneys to tell them what the dates are I would do that or you do that I could do that Dan Antonelli and Robert Williams okay I'll do all five council members need to be present at all hearings and if there if there is an well you need a quarum quum one and they happen to show evidence like you know video and all that kind of thing you know you could review the um the audio Yeah doesn't the planning zoning board they make you sign a certification that you've done it do you have to do that ABC oh okay so is there a video or an audio because video just an audio these are going to have videos that's the issue because there's body cam footage well you mean audio as far as what you would review no I'm saying like if you're absent do you see a video right that's what I'm saying that's what I thought yeah so I don't believe believe that we uh so you you could hear it but you won't see you have to go the chief would have to arrange for you to see that footage that you missed I guess actually the attorney's fo right why is it not reported as far as Zoom no if it is recorded on audio audio but why why isn't it just recorded yeah via Zoom it's a there's a cost to it yeah can't just put a camera up the you know person yeah you need a moderator and all that so that's why we it's been hard to fortunately this doesn't happen all the time there's just this one really it really doesn't it's not been a problem so um okay so the second issue resolution Islam islamophobia and anti-arab racism a resolution yes thank you Madame President Madam Clerk how 1230 uh I I I believe someone from the administration put a proposed uh resolution on the uh uh pending matters agenda uh asking I guess us to consider consider moving it to uh an actual resolution for consideration and and that was at the request of a res okay yeah uh I I just have a statement that I want to read uh and and then I'd like the other Council people if they want to respond as well uh I I just want to be speaking as council president for the new 2025 Council I believe council members understand and fully support the law and customs of our country society and community that prohibit and abhor all forms of discrimination period no caveats no conditions in all cases and for everyone I believe we all agree that we must treat each other as equals with love respect and Justice Just as we want to be treated and just as our Constitution and laws provide as human beings we are all different and will differ as we seek solutions to these disagreements we should always keep in our principles of equality respect tolerance and Justice foremost in our words and actions both for ourselves and for those with whom we disagree I believe the people of West Orange should be certain and confident that their council members do not and will not tolerate discrimination of any kind that we should oppose discrimination wherever it raises its ugly head and that we always will and speaking for myself I believe these types of resolutions are unnecessary once we have firmly established and proclaimed our opposition to discrimination of every kind therefore I believe it is best for our community to focus on our own issues challenges future that we as a governing body can address through solutions that have a significant impact on making West Orange an even better place to live visit and do business uh that is our goal and focus going forward and I ask everyone in the community to join us in this effort anybody else you have a question for the chief so Chief so we were receiving emails for this the former Council um I got the impression this came from the resident was on the human relations commission and was speaking for the commission so it is a it is a resident on relations commission I can't really tell you definitively if that the human relation commission was in agreement with this or this was the resident or the resident and another group that she may be a representative of it was presented to the mayor mayor said I will give it to the council for their consideration if they want to vet this and talk about it that's up to them but the resolution needs to be passed by the council not the mayor but the point being is the impression was given it came from the the commission itself anything that would come from the commission would have to be voted on by that commission and that question should have been asked to that person that sent this in I I can tell you that at the last um open Office hours of the mayor a grp group of concerned citizens came in that person sits on the HRC but she wasn't representing the HRC it was presented from a group of concerned citizens yeah know I've got the email so it wasn't so it wasn't it didn't come out of the HRC it came out of people so she they presented it that night my question is it shouldn't then come to us the citizen asked that it was it would be presented to you for consideration got it and the group I just say the group as well yeah that's that's the only question I have anything else any further discussion okay see okay moving on um Council M kovak do you want me to include that statement in the minutes yeah that would be fine I email that to you yes thank you I appreciate that so what do we do with this well you have an option of you know you can vote to have it placed on the agenda um or just move on basically becomes known void if there's no action taken this hasn't even been passed through legal has legal looked even looked at this it's a resolution yeah well I just want to Echo some of um Council president's sentiments um but I think that that me personally as somebody who ran on you know uh the day-to-day making our day-to-day better um from garbage to sewer to taxes and transparency I think that it's best that um we we focus on issues that really affect our our bottom line and not issues that that really do not I would have to agree okay no action taken right and I of course support that everybody feel welcome in West Orange of course okay uh next matter resolution authorizing a property appraisal of Mount Pleasant Forest at Ridge Road for a potential purchase by Green Acres open space trust fund um so the um Mount Pleasant Forest is a very critical um piece of land for West Orange um it it is a top of the Crestridge apartments and um already the Crestridge apartments are in are threatened by runoff from the cliff um I have been a long proponent of preserving this space Not only to protect the residents of Crest rage apartment but because of the accidents that keep happening on Mount Pleasant Avenue which are due to a number of reasons but will only be exacerbated if we have tree loss and and further water runoff so for those reasons I think it's time for this Township to do a third appraisal of this area and and um with the hope of moving this towards open space preservation so go ahead go ahead Council so the reason why I've never supported buying the uh the Rich Road properties uh are twofold one is not because I don't want to preserve because I I've always voted to preserve I felt it wasn't in danger of being purchased currently now there's uh supposedly is is it on the schedule for the planning board it was it it was is it on now no no so it did didn't pass there there was a permit given for soil removal okay but they're not there yet they're not there in regards someone has not purchased the property yet no but they're they're on late we do now now we are in imminent danger of of of purchase and and you know tremendous loss of trees they're talking about putting in potentially a pickle bow port a pool a house and a retention Basin that they themselves the property owners will have to maintain that's really unheard of um so we expensive yeah and expensive and um no testimony was given at this at this um zoning hearing on the dangers of developing this land our Green West Orange has had in the past commissioned um Princeton Hydro the finest um engineering firm in in New Jersey and they came out with a report about how dangerous it would be if this land were developed so I think we are at that at that juncture where this is a a danger to the community so okay so I I'll ask few more questions in regards to the potential of them actually buying it and going through after they get because my prior experience was we've had folks come prior and then saw how expensive was to build something on that bedrock and then went away and because there's going to be an expense for us we buy it we're going to have to maintain it all that runoff that you're talking about it becomes problematic that's going to be on the township to incur all those costs is going to on the township to uh to incur the cost now to pitch in for the roadway that's uh on Rich Road because we're going to own the property in the right away because it's a private road that's paid for now by the residents we'll have to pick up that cost which part is this what number there was couple pieces it's Lot 10 it's block 80 Point 03 Lots 10 and 21 that's at the edge of the the road and the first property in where the stone wall is yes so then we're buying that too well I there are solutions for that too that should go under historic preservation and we should apply for Grants under historic preservation all that gets paid for with grants like there needs to be a plan yeah and and then now you're talking about a a sing one single family home it's half the lot it's it's it's it's a single family home yes no I don't I think it's on one of the LW one of them is before the zoning board for a major site plan it probably wouldn't if it wasn't such a big project or and they are they are zoned residential yeah but on two acre lots okay no I'm just I'm just asking all the questions that's all because there is I like know six acres of P those two lots um yes so I just want to know what the expense would be to maintain this property for the township and would it come out of the fund or or our budget there's really very little maintenance that's needed on a property like this you just leave it as it is and the danger to the community below is far less if we if we purchase this and and do not allow any uh destruction of trees on that property the danger to the Community Living below I understand that crazy I I no no I totally get that but the reason again buyers have backed off on this property for years they've come this far and get their cost in check and wind up not buying the property well we can we can spend that time yeah no no I just want to get all the facts of what this is going to cost for us to inherit and maintain and there's been issues of runoff on that property going down m Pleasant again we're going to so now those residents are going to come to us to solve those problems which will cost us money right now actually actually um I I believe that the the cliff is owned by the by the property owner and they are responsible for maintaining the The Cliff I'm not 100% sure see we got to find all this out so I don't think that that is an expense that we then have it's not like a a a a dangerous situation right now but I'm saying that there is already runoff it would be far worse if this if you know thousand trees are taken down no I I told do they want to take how many trees they want to take down I don't know I don't know how many trees they want to take down but they'll would that be in the in this application they they're before the zoning board they got they went before the zoning board and they got permission to remove soil you don't remove soil unless you are going to be removing trees sure so so they got the first step going and now it's the second step and I think that we as a community have a responsibility to protect our residents and that's why whatever this costs it's going to be less costly than going through another rulin but I I get that but I also don't understand so if we put in this really strict tree ordinance and they don't get a permit to take down the trees how how like are they still going to buy the property they're they they can get a permit to to remove the trees according to the tree ordinance that was passed they don't have to replace on site they can pay into the fund well they can't take down more than a a 50% no no no no that's not what we pass that's of the trees they cannot take not for residential property yes they cannot take down more that the maximum that they can take down for for this development would be 50% we could be losing a lot of trees plus the fact that they need to put in a a retention Basin that's more trees that have to come down to build the retention and the pickle bow and the pool and the house you're talking about a lot of trees no matter how how you get there I have to read the ordinance because I didn't I didn't realize they could take down that many trees we an ordinance for them not to take down trees yeah but you cannot it's also a property that the property owner has a right to develop so we can't say that you can't take down any trees you know they they they have a right to put in a house they have a right to put in a pool no I I realized that that's why I said there had to be a balance ordinance okay if they're if they're under contract though on one of the two lots I don't expect you can purchase purch it you don't expect a purchase no I don't expect the township can P I said you but the township can purchase it if it's under contract if they sell it they have to sell it they want to sell it us if they want to sell it to us if if the if the person who's building the house they'd have first rate of refusal because they're under contract exactly they if they want to get in other words they I mean I'm assuming they're building this you know this isn't a speck house it doesn't sound like it sounds like someplace they're going to live so I don't know that they're going sell it for fair market value because they're buying it for fair market value to build this estate that they want to live on so anyway it's it's almost one o'clock right if you want to if you want to pass a resolution to get an appraisal on the property that's easy yeah get the appraisal buying it it's another problem but we can talk about that you take it out of the fund right yes okay and there previous ones back third appraisal back when the open space uh open space and Recreation Mark Market has gone through the roof since then so it it might be that we can use use the existing appraisals maybe just update them yeah yeah we should check into that okay so uh the resolution authorizing uh property appraisal for Mount Pleasant Forest that be on the next agenda well I think we should vote on it you have to vote on it place it on the agenda okay so is there a motion to place it on the agenda motion thank you I'll second thank you um councilwoman celino yes councilman kovia yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes okay the motion carries next is changes to uh chapter 3- 3.1 rules of the council with changes of meeting hours scheduling and conference agenda intended to encourage public participation and input as well as Clarity and this is just uh for uh the 3.1 uh section of the rules of council uh and it's part of an effort to improve the accessibility of the council meetings to the public by perhaps moving the hours uh up by limiting how late we we uh uh try to operate and if you guys could vote you could probably vote to approve that uh no more one o00 and scheduling and you said 10 was it AM or PM yes and uh and and try to limit the conference agenda uh and this is all to intended to uh encourage public participation and input any comments or questions I second the motion well type of changes what what time are you looking to start because I again I have I can't get here 6:30 is tough for me on Tuesdays six o'clock is even tougher so I can't there's no way I'll get here any earlier at six o'clock can you bring the children wait but can you be here at six no she said it's tough but I it's not undoable but it's tough my my yeah my daughter has like a 4:30 meeting she's she doesn't get like I need a change before I get here you know I I need to be here but here's the other issue like I said if you're if you're worried about public comment you have people like the whole point at 7 o'clock people are home they could come here and or they're out of work like at six o'clock people are on the road so I get you want to start earlier and listen we've had meetings where we started at five and I make it here for an exception like when it was the budget and we're still here this late where where the cutdown has to be and this is your first meeting tonight and and with everything else is is trying to vet a lot of this before the public meeting right and sitting with the directors or whoever you need to sit with PR to come in here it's fine to recap and make your points quickly also public comment you can never gauge sometimes you have no one here and depending on a on a Hot Topic item you could be here you know last year we were here two three hours because if you have a lot of members of the audience and that's why we had that debate between three minutes and five minutes now you're telling those all the points you made not to go from not you but the former Council m not to go from five minutes to three minutes because it was going to cut down people's ability to to comment now you're you know you're starting the meetings earlier and they can't get here like I was upset with the Board of Ed the Board of Ed used to have public comment um the meetings public meetings started at 8 they're starting 6:30 now well the whole reason why they started at 8 was not for more the employees so the parents could get there at 8:00 they're putting their kids to bed or feeding them dinner at 6:30 when they start now in open session so I get it I feel bad for the staff I I love to get out of here earlier and I've been a big advocate for that but unless we figure a way to shorten the meetings with us um we we got to figure that out and part of that is is trying to vet the questions beforehand yeah I think that would be very helpful like councilman kovak sent an email with all his questions and they were answered so if he had anything further other than that he could discuss it tonight or you know relay what happened with the public and all that so I think it would be very helpful to have the council send their questions in giving the administration time to put the answers together and then you'll get your answers you know like for instance I said I would send the contracts to both of you I mean all you had to do is pick up the phone and say hey car you know give me those contracts so I can look through them and whatever and I'm happy to do that so I think that would be extremely helpful thank you I mean it's your you know tonight's first meeting so it there's a lot course um but anyway I just think again for me personally I uh I'll I commit to six um any earlier I cannot say I'll be here I I'm going to be here it's and six is tough for me on Tuesdays Thursday is actually easier day for me to get here earlier um so yeah so as far as conference agenda I have no problem with that keeping short I mean we shouldn't go over the the half hour We're to cut out the conference conference agenda yeah that would have to start at 5:30 so the only good thing about them is like tonight like I mentioned with the presentation like you may need presentations and it's good to put them in the beginning so you're not lengthening the um we can need basis not meeting you know open house type of meeting we don't need all this stuff agenda is there you know your presentations your proclamations yeah we don't need counil meeting well well yeah we're not having all the staff there at those meetings the whole idea of having the proclamations and all that other stuff is just to recognize members of the community and you know you we have a little less of it maybe just like quarterly you know if we have to honor the kids or something but we don't need this take it could be done it could be done at another time by the mayor limit the amount of items that go on the agenda like you know I'm getting calls from oh can you put this up but before I know it I have seven items on yeah I agree and the other thing if I if I can say is that I it really I know that this has been a mantra of of um councilwoman Scarpas but it's really difficult to get stuff after we've gotten the packet you know yeah if we could just we Tred very very hard practice and if we do do it I try to do it by you know Friday right you know the latest like if I'll say to them if you can't get it to me by Friday then it I can't put it on we just don't have enough time and then it's hard to study study that yeah and on the weekends you can't call people you know we're all working I just I will tell you this to stick up for our directors and I know the chief will do this too if you send us emails Mo your directors will respond to you the directors are watching so if you if you have questions right away even if you don't get a phone phone call you'll get a director to respond to you yeah and and we'll provide you because we know that no matter what if you send us an a question on Saturday if you send it on Monday Mondays are tough days for us because and it's just obious the meeting was a Monday but but Mondays are a tough day because the directors have to find out what happened all weekend long so if you send the questions ahead of time if you think they you may get a response from some of them prior to you may not get it from everybody but those who wanted want that want that on their plate Monday morning will will probably get you some kind of answer early um you know so and and and to your point too before the more you table the more you got to do work the next time you know so you know so that's that's you know we want to get you the information we don't want we don't want this sitting around okay right so let's Thum through this yeah and I just wanted to mention to Mr Moon we have drafts of all of this if it will help you get started on what we're looking for and and what we're trying to do we we can give you all of them tonight okay so we need to vote on this or we're we're moving to vote on next sorry I'm sorry council president um I mean I can miss conference agenda but I don't want to miss the meeting so I mean if I can't get here at 6 on a Tuesday I mean if you make it 6 and you have conference agenda and I miss conference agenda and we start at 6:30 that's one thing if you're want to go early to 6 and cut out conference agenda then I can't promise you I'll be here Tuesdays on time right now anyway what if we amended from 6:30 to 10:30 with that 6:30 we the duration the duration from 6:30 to 10:30 okay so let me okay my years of experience here on the school board so here's the problem tonight at 10 o'cl you so where we were at you know hopefully like next meeting will be a lot further along in the agenda agenda well what happen is now now you're forcing another meeting so it it's it's really better just to power through and get it over with I agree and we get I think as we go along it will be smoother I know you want guys want to make a lot of changes so now it's going to take time because we're all debating that but once we work out all those changes you want to make and we start getting more in a Groove with things meetings should go faster I mean only only thing that's going to slowest down is a controversial item and you don't know that what's going to trigger the public or upset the public for them to do a long um a long um public meeting you know public comment so so I I understand I understand that you want to power through and I'm I'm all for that too I'd like to have fre nights but I I'm really concerned I mean to have meetings at this hour is the exact opposite of of having an involved and engaged public so um I think that we we do need to shoot for ending at a definite time unless there's something urgent that we vote for that say let's continue the meeting so I am all in favor of having a stop time keep in mind if you have a if you said by ordinance or by rule that Council meetings have to end by a certain time all you do is you create like systems of filibustering where it's a me one member of the council doesn't want something to happen so they stall till that time if members of the public are against something they just keep public comment going for hours and hours and hours until it can't happen so it binds you guys to finish by a certain time we've had public common last year to 10 I remember I know you guys are in the 11 so the it's a goal it's it's an aspiration rather than a than a a absolute Council so we can always amend it by vote of council to continue or not to continue and I say we do the opposite I say we try to get that goal and because what he saying is now you create a situation where you don't you may not get the work done you you you wanna always extend every any meeting but you have time constraints on like once you you are here longer and you'll see what needs to get done like look at tonight you took what six at least six items that are on the next agenda because we tabled them and I I supported that but that's going to make you're already into your meeting you know you may not got done by 10:30 so I I'm just right and on those items if I may you know you had a lot of questions so if you if you had had I mean it's your first meeting so but if you questions yeah much better than I did um you know if the questions are given ahead of time then they're able to get those answers to you that will cut a lot of time off a lot of time the other thing is also use you know the council president has discretion to control the the order of items on the agenda in the manner to get things moving along so for example if there's a whole if there's like one or two controversial matters whether they be something maybe as the as the council president move those pull those aside get all the business stuff done and then devote the time to those controversial things so the but what I'm saying is sending that there is there is inherent risk in creating um artificial start and mandatory hand whereas using the discretion that the council president has in an efficient manner can get you what what you need anyway so if if if the council president says we're ending a 10 unless there's something whatever you don't need an ordinance change to do that as the president controls the agenda right is it in the ordinance for the zoning and the board and the planning board they they on because they have ENT they have beginning and end and they are very strict and everybody knows it's ending right well generally have one or two matters like they have specific they they they can balance their calendar to specific dates so that you're listening to One matter or two matters dep and they're an independent governing body they can they can establish the rules you know one of the things just to uh point out that you know we we were having a problem where we were slugging things out for you know a long time because we were open public mic you know with zoom and then we had those issues we address Nightmare and at one point the mayor to help out the staff said know she drafted an executive order that says building should closed at 11:00 and all employees can leave we have that in place we don't we've never enforced it but it's there it's you know because public buildings oh the zoom was a nightmare it was people calling in because it just it caused and it caus a very com comfortable situations people from out of town and so so but we as a result we had to the mayor ordered to we have as a executive order we could walk out if we wanted to 11 o' we choose not to try to get engaged but we have that ability if it becomes that that crazy right because it's just it's you know it's counter it was becoming counterproductive at one point right and then and because we got rid of that Zoom live chat I mean one time we were what till 3:30 in the morning C it was it was aw can I make a recommendation can we try to get through two months see where we at TimeWise and then revisit this D and the other thing another suggestion is um the responses to public comment you know every no you're hey no but in the past start every every Council 20 seconds I kind it sck appreciate that I was short um but every council member you know feels the need to answer every single resident that came up and spoke and many times they're just repeating what their colleague said um we're part of the problem so yes we are so you know it's that another suggestion is you know either cut it short if if a colleague had already addressed something that oh I was going to say that you know bypass it like or just say oh you know I agree with councilwoman Ruden or whatever the case may be another suggestion and I'm sure nobody will want to do this because everybody has their voice and they should is some towns have only the council president answer public comment I know I knew you're G say that I'm just saying you know that's out there you know but you know I would forut you she love you Joe but I want my voice no everybody has a voice I understand that excuse me there's a good point hold on a second oh I just think I I hear what you're saying let's go ahead and move this forward get it drafted see what it looks like like and and then decide whether we want to try to implement some or all of it or or as you're saying I can't I'm gonna tell you now I cannot be here earlier than 6 pm on a Tuesday and 6 PM is GNA be tough for me yeah right and you had suggested 6:30 to 10:30 yes to accommodate your yes yeah yeah but I I just know this Council and I could tell you how many times I could count we got out of here but you know what it to get out of here 10:30 it gives us something to work for council president and if you really want to go to a hard deadline 6:30 to 10:30 one of the things I would suggest to you it was brought up once before it was defeated but um you know public comment three minutes three minutes know because because at some point we and I've seen this happen where I've had to due time when you tell somebody they have one minute remaining they shut up shut off you it's kind of like because sometimes it does become repetitive and there's some people come will Val points who need more than five minutes and I'm not I'm not trying to silence the public but if you can if you're going to really put a hard deadline having that five minutes and you have 10 people come up that's 50 minutes of your four hours right and keep in mind you guys are adding now these public open house sessions idea give why that's why that's why we're doing it to shorten public comment yeah I'm just making that suggestion if you want that hard deadline that's something that should be part of your consideration well it's a soft deadline I mean it's a dead it's a goal to work for it's something we're going to do but we're going to have to extend it once in a while I say short and pending matters you got up to I that's a lot here what about a four minute public comment I W go for that to and know you you get upset but here's here's the situation technical matters that people don't understand that need to be discussed well what do they you know call us go to Open House email School Board does it three minutes they got parents who have dire they talk nothing we have important matters okay we have things that are really comp that need to be ourl no there are people's opinions about wow can't wait to PTA gets a hold of you issues are more complex it's already gone viral sorry all right all right right okay that's a good recommend write it up and let's Okay so we're going to move to a vote uh to approve this and send it Forward um okay so yes is there a motion to do so to be here motion I'll second it okay um councilwoman celino yes councilwoman gber Michel oh I'm I'm tired councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman scorpa yes okay the motion carries uh what's next item e next uh okay changes to chapter 2- 47.2 environmental commission membership and Leadership positions to reflect the input and diversity of council members um yes that that was me um I am suggesting that we change the the composition of the membership of the environmental commission to recognize different voices and um and also to um make their appointments for one year and they may be reappointed and that the appointees terms run with the term of the council member and the composition of the of the new membership would be the mayor appoints one member each council member appoints one member the council will make one consensus appointment based on a majority vote and the commission commission members will elect their own chair Vice chair secretary each serving for a one-year term so for economical times I'm assuming that e f and g are similar of nature you want want to discuss them all as a group yes I don't mind because they're all okay um no no e e and f are are similar f is a little bit different because it's a resolution that we would like to change to an ordinance that's G I mean G so yes E and F are similar okay so here yeah just do I think I because it could be you guys someday being the mayor you know we need more diversity it should be diverse it should reflect it should reflect different people the terms should be sh that's different like well right right now you have all of the appointees on both uh on this commission being by by the mayor that's not reflective of the diversity of this I have a don't we all have appointments to all these commissions no the the environmental commission is entirely appointed by the mayor that's all her yeah yes the mayor no objection this helps things no objection to council appointments okay so let's just do that okay so yeah okay I thought we had appointments already with all these no so but we do though we have open space yeah open space has a different situation so Mr moon it's not exactly the same thing but it both has to deal with membership I want to raas so I remember what it was this was this might have been even more than six years ago I had done a full audit of all the commissions and Boards that's created on ordinance and I had made I had made some recommendations to like consolidate some to get you know what I mean whatever um and some of them had been different years um I don't believe we ever did so again that was a long time very long well I've been asking it for a long time just just on that thought I was also thinking that we should consolidate the open space and the environmental because if you read the environmental State Environmental um commission's ordinance it basically is dealing with open space so so so what I would ask is that b basically there be it would be like a sort of a project to to do what I to review the commission and boards to make to to sort of consolidate what you think needs to be done if there's commissions of boards that you think are there needs that haven't been addressed make that some I don't know like if someone wants to again I tell you what what to do as far as organization wise but all I'm saying is there are room in the ordinance to like make some fixes right think that that that what you're suggesting is a really good idea but right now I think we just need to to to step into this and then and then do a reassessment because there may be grants that are contingent on on having an environmental commission and there may be things that are contingent upon having an open space and I have not done the research on that so at this point all I want to do is suggest that we open it up to reorganization to allow different voices shorter periods of time more of the community but what do you do with the existing appointments like you just you have people that are that already gonna sit that's your appointment no no no no for us three but for those two and the mayor their their appointments are going till 2020 they're gonna have it's a changed it's a changed commission she's the mayor will still have an appointment she'll have to choose one it's not a four-year appointment anymore when you change your resolution no I I know I know that I didn't know how so you would have to resist nobody's on here forever I tried to explain this to our older adults advisor when they thought that they should have a two-year appointment why we made it a one-year appointment that the council agreed that if somebody's doing a wonderful job they can be reappointed for four years but they serve at the pleasure of the council person who appointed them yeah that's right sure person I exactly clear I'm of it's your person so if we vote to move it forward it'll be much easier to look at the to talk it okay so so I want to move to vote on I second it for E you're doing okay and I second okay we get we'll get out of here in 10 minutes okay uh uh f is wait wait we have to take a vote councilwoman celino sure covia yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa okay the motion carries and then for the next one open space and Recreation is a similar situation where their um the membership number is still the same seven they each serve one year members may be reappointed the appointees terms run with the term of the council member um the mayor will appoint one member each each council member will appoint one member um the council will make one consensus appointment and the commission members will elect their own chair Vice chair secretary each serving for one year and what members are co-terminus what members were coterminous you said somebody that some members are run along with that that your appointee runs only the same as your your council person okay and what about the other members cuz some some of them are one year but then the other ones are co-terminus so yeah that's what I was saying no they're all one year they're all one year appointments yeah but we get elected different times yeah right oh oh they're all one year reappoint you can reappoint and or the appointees term may be renewed okay that was a lot of information whistly listen as as a person who has has Le like sat on a lot of committees where the aison appointments have not shown up and have not participated and helped um I I don't mind the one year because you know yes but it's gonna be on that council person that keep for their own appointment that's why I always say if you're appointing somebody to to mik commission Z Le on for I hope they're and if the appointee is is it not working out for some reason then that that that person can be removed at the end of the year okay I yeah okay so all right so do you want to make a motion to move that forward yes I do I make a motion okay councilwoman celino yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Cara okay the motion carries all right next is Revis resolution 20 I'm sorry 2799 citizens budget advisory committee to create an ordinance revising membership to reflect the input and diversity of council members um yes this is um currently this is a um an ordinance I mean a resolution not an ordinance I would like this I suggest that this be um devised as a as an ordinance and that we give a little give give more um responsibility to this committee so that they meet more regularly and they give and they give um Regular input to the to help us as a council the budget's once a year are you yeah they'll meet they'll meet during that time yeah it actually says it in the in the draft that they meet uh until the budget is is done and that includes the uh true UPS at uh in December so they'll so they'll get together when they'll get together when they get the first draft of the budget I I think they're required to I think they're required to make reports once a month uh to the council and that means they have to meet at least once a month and they need to and they need to be appointed in uh December so they can start working in January except for the new new people uh I I was an impetus on this because I think can get a lot of of help if we make it more structured and require attendance and uh allow them to pick their own chair and put highly qualified people on it okay but at the end of the day this is our job like okay it's advisory okay I there's nothing wrong with getting help from the residents in fact I want them all engaged in looking at that budget so they understand what we're going to be doing in what we're up against should understand who look at that budget the off we're going to be I don't know the last one you pointed said I was getting two salaries and I still haven't seen yeah yeah different we know better huh looking at it every month but but here's the situation though I gotta ask a question on this because again we have busy we have a CFO who is extremely busy does he need to sit with this every month okay because I don't want to we're not going to take anybody more burden on the staff because that's been my big issue with all changes for the past couple years with new ordinances and everything else it's been putting a burden on the staff and everybody wonders why the staff get can't get things done is because we give them busy work extra busy work if they're busy enough but that's that's my two Sense on done now Ving council president motion to approve second okay hold on councilwoman Celina this one I got to say no because I don't think they should meet every month okay councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scara yes okay the motion carries all right next is resend ordinance uh well okay resin chapter 2- 5.3 to eliminate the duplication of the job responsibilities of the position of director of Staff operations with those of the business administrator well that kind of explains it all this I don't really it's a duplicate position um we should remove this from our ordinance it's a civil service title so you can't really change the duties and responsibilities you I don't know why I was ever adopted an ordinance to begin with because when I was appointed to that some 10 years ago I didn't get a salary and that would be the only requirement to have an ordinance to have the position if there was a salary accompanying it so it's a civil service title you could to point somebody to that position unpaid Amica could do that if she so chose well I still think that let's clean up the books yeah you could take it off the book and just like I said I don't know why it was ever you know I know more about this 10 years later than I did back then but I didn't so it's just a matter of pulling it out okay motion motion to approve it or is there any other discussion counc clean it up is there a I'll second it thank you councilwoman castelino yes councilman kovak yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes the motion carries and changes to chapter 2- 9.4 regarding special councel to clarify the legislative advise and consent role and fiduciary oversight of the council it it's just designed to clarify our special counsel uh ordinance and um again this is one of these things that I think we should just move forward on once we get get it in writing uh we can then uh look at it um uh harder as opposed to now where we're just trying to move the things forward so there special language you're going to put in you're amending the ordinance with yeah but it's but it's it's it's not much it's probably a a few uh a few words shorter this is a the the special Council ordinance is is really quite short um but it the the special counsel ordinance as it's written now is that uh the special Council would be subject to the supervision of the township attorney who would monitor the rever the work review and approve the bills of all special councel uh we don't think that that's appropriate we don't think that a special Council should be under the supervision uh and review and approval of the bills of of a special counsel what did um was it Ramon what what did he suggest ear what did he call it the the council that we need it conflict conflict so want he just well Council like special Council comes up is special Council to meet conflict Council Mr moon no special council is basically any attorney that's not the town attorney attorney or assistant attor the order creates two positions it's in the Law Department the township attorney and my understanding is the council has left the assistant Township attorney Deion open they also acted conflict counsel so that if we were in a situation tonight where you did want what I had to say you can ask the attorney because you know um but again that decision so that's not this is about soci like there's um so technically labor council is a category of special c yeah Bond Bond Council Bond Council every a lot of special coun um the ABC Council yeah I need to see what you're talking about good it's too late for me to think of that good motion to approve yes yeah second um councilwoman castelino well proving it doesn't mean it's just we're going to put on the agenda correct okay yes councilman kovia yes councilwoman Ruden yes councilwoman Scarpa yes hi I did it we I hate to the wet blanket I bring up something one one other matter on their new business I I oh okay sorry unless you want to go Council I'm sorry so the last year the council never uh appointed a rent leveling board oh yeah um we need to reappoint a rent leveling board that is all consensus by the council the mayor does not appoint anybody I think I think each council person gets um one and then there's I think two one consensus and then and then you one of you get to join the board uh to be the liaison um and the reason I'm bringing that up is one we didn't have one and two we may have two applications coming in um preliminarily um one of them's going to be large very large and the other one's going to be maybe a repeat customer um we haven't met we only met twice in 20 years and you may get two this year so if that's the case the rent leveling board would have to hear the hear the um the applications if you do not appoint in a rent leveling board which is your prerogative then you guys get to sit up here and listen to the applications so I'm leaving that to you I'm advising and you need to come up with your you need to come up with people who want to serve on that board okay all right I already know one person who doesn't I know a lot of people don't the last board what kind of person would you recommend for that board I think that's I think it's a discussion for another day okay we'll do that I do I have one one more here well do we want to vote on that to add it to the next agenda well they have to add the agenda appointing we'll have to talk about okay okay so I could just put that on has the floor yes um I was just wondering if at the next meeting um Nishan will be um providing its monthly report and and if if um we can request all of the monthly reports so that to be be sent to us because they were supposed to be um due on the 15th of each month in writing to the mayor and Town Council so I'd really like to see every single one of those reports I would like to see them as well well the whole Council should get them if they exist they should be making a presentation to us also yeah I have been requesting every month according to the ordinance that's right okay ladies and gentlemen it's now 1:22 is there any uh any opposition to a motion to adjourn not at all second that it okay all in favor any opposed the meeting is adjourned thank you thank you everybody yes Susan would you mind taking me