the April 17 2024 planning board meetings called to order this to advise that the notice of time date location and to the extent known agenda of the subject meeting was promptly posted in the public place reserved for such or similar announcements on April 4th 20 24 transmitted to the times to Princeton pack in West Wind plsb news on April 4th 2024 and filed with the Township Clerk on April 4th 2024 Sydney please call the rooll Mr Patel Mr Lao Mr shael Mr Pano yes Mr beg yes Miss Barry Miss aate councilman Whitfield yes mayor Marat yes Vice chairman hberman here and chairman C here we have a quarum okay um there's I guess environmental commission affordable housing are going to be na for tonight um nothing to report on environmental and Geor is not here here um let's look at uh the minutes for December 13th are there any amendments Corrections changes that need to be done to those minutes uh yes I have one um at uh public comments uh resident uh Stacy Fox uh mentioned that that her that she recently had to go before the it says planning board for uh a 150 foot square foot addition it was actually a zoning board application not a planning board application okay you follow me where I'm at Cindy bottom of the page on uh December 13 13 down bottom right thank you any other amendments changes so on so forth to Dem 13 minutes I entertain a motion to accept the uh approve thec 13th minutes as amended so move Mr chairman move by Simon second second second by the mayor all in favor say I I I any abstention abstain abstain from who's abstaining councilman Whitfield Whitfield and Mr Bay okay thank you um minutes for March 6 2024 are there any changes amendments um they need to be uh done there anybody okay I'll entertain a motion to approve the March 6 minutes so moved moved by the mayor seconded by I'll second it second by Curtis all in favor say I I um abstain okay Simon's abstaining right and Anis is abstaining okay minutes are approved thank you next on the agenda is it um is resolution pb22 d02 um Mar te Mr chair Mr Mr chairman Mr chairman oh um I'm sorry you want to make a comment about why you're not uh doing public comments number four of your agenda thank thank thank you so much appreciate that my apologies I usually will go to public comments on non-agenda non- pending items thank thank you for pointing that out I skipped right over it uh anybody from the public wish to speak on a non-agenda non- pending item please step up state your name and address for the record the sun yes thanks uh Andrea Mandel 46 Ellsworth Drive West Windsor um I just wanted to um note that uh Dan D milsky has uh been before this board a number of times I know him as a member of the planning board as a member of of uh West wisor Township Council and also as a Girl Scout volunteer who's uh worked over many years with uh with girls on many projects with him um and uh I've you know we're we're going to miss him uh he's doing a very good uh you know he's done a wonderful job uh for the town we all appreciate him at the environmental commission there was a um resolution that was put together a proclamation for him uh there are some others planned I know the council's planning one also and I one main reason why I'm talking to the board is that uh I want to let everybody know that at on Arbor Day which is going to be on Saturday at 10: a.m uh Dan will be there um and I believe shade tree commission is going to have a big card people can sign for him also and we will uh be presenting the proclamation so um I'm inviting everybody from the board to please come to Arbor Day if they would like to have one last chance to thank Dan for everything thanks bye thank Sam how many years of service has Dan put in for West Wier Township he uh he worked as a consultant since 1986 and was hired by the town in 1998 thank you nice wow long time thank you for your thank you for your service Dan um anybody else from the public wish to step up and uh speak please step up okay everybody's here on an agenda item nice um okay so I'll just go back to there's no environmental commission affordable housing um we already did the minutes resolution PB 22-2 Martin y i on hello yep this application is being um postponed um the applicant requested more time to review the draft resolution so um it hopefully will be on for the next planning board meeting to be adopted but um that's to be determined okay thank you okay the main event the main event the draft Baran City Planning and Zoning study presentation okay David you're up okay good evening everybody uh should I get sworn in do you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give uh will be the truth I do and just for everyone's benefit please um introduce yourself of course uh good evening everybody my name is Dave Novak I'm a planner with Burgess Associates been with Burgess now for about 13 years and I think been working with West Windsor now for about six years or so um just is a point of order as I talked tonight inevitably this microphone is going to drift away from my mouth so at some point you can't hear me just wave and I'll bring it right back up um so tonight we will be discussing uh the Baran City Planning and Zoning study so this is an initial analysis right now of the existing zoning and development pattern of the community so this is more of a fact finding Mission at this point uh looking at what the existing development pattern is like what the existing zoning is like and where there might be mismatches between the two in terms of recommendations in terms of solutions as of right now we're not offering anything in this report because we really wanted to present you guys with what we're seeing as some of the potential problems and then workshopping that to see what Solutions we can get so tonight we'll be breaking this discussion down into four topics a little bit of background information on what a master plan is and then a brief overview of Baran City a discussion of the existing zoning of the area and then an analysis of how does that existing development pattern match with the existing zoning so first though it's important to discuss what a master plan is and and how that impacts how we live in a community so a master plan is a comprehensive long-term strategic document which is intended to guide the growth and development of the community so think of a master plan as uh a road map it Maps out where you currently are and where you wish to be in the future and what a master plan does is that it sets the parameters around which development should occur so a master plan comes up with the ideas and then that should set the stage for future zoning in most municipalities including West Windsor you have three roles in the planning World on the bottom left there we have the planning board this board here which adopts master plan documents those master plan documents like I said should set the general parameters around which development occur those parameters become zoning regulations which are adopted by the mayor and Council and then on the bottom right there you have the zoning board so if somebody wants to uh say build something that's not permitted in a certain use uh in a district or it's a residential house and they want to build a fence that's too tall the zoning board would have the opportunity to Grant certain variances so those are the three roles in playing planning very very very simplified but right now we're talking about that bottom left quadrant or corner with the planning board working with the master plan and the reason why we're even doing this study is because it's been a long-term master plan goal of this community dating back to about 2002 to look at the Baran City area as well as some other neighborhoods and recognizing that there's certain conflicts between the existing development pattern and how we zone for that and then coming up with Solutions so that from my research was first discussed in your 2002 master plan and it's been reiterated uh in several planning documents ever since so next we'll discuss a uh brief overview of Baran City so historically Baran city was three separate neighborhoods uh in 1916 it began as Baran Heights in 1924 it was Baran City and then 1926 it was Princeton Gardens in this map Society uh which is a fantastic website um provided this map you can see Baran Heights in blue Baran City in a gold color we'll call it and then Princeton Gardens in that green color now you'll see Princeton Gardens extending past the rail line past that Circle onto Alexander Road that was initially planned but it was never developed in regard to the development history of Baran City it was the first plant community in West Windsor wherein you as a property owner had the opportunity to buy one lot two lots three lots you can combine those lots together and then you can decide on what type of dwelling you wanted to be constructed on that so as we go through this presentation as you see some of the maps and as you drive through your own Community you can see that lot sizes will change and Architectural Styles will change as well when we look at West I'm sorry when we look at baring City in general in West Windsor it's located in the Northerly portion of your Township to the Northwest it's bounded by Wallace Road to the Northeast we have Acme Woods to the east we have Nash Park to the South we have Maurice Hawk school and then to the West Benford drive and then here we have an aial of the study area which we included for Baran City these two charts provide a basic overview of the development pattern there so when we look at just the number of lots and or the total lot area we can see that Baran city is overwhelmingly a residential community so 93.5% of all Lots within Baran City are residential 3.6 are non-residential and only 2.9% are vacan when we look at those lots in terms of lot area how big they are uh slightly more than three4 of the community 78.9 % are all residential uh you have 20% that is non-residential and just over 1% which is vacant so again predominantly a residential Community the average residential lot size in Baran city is 12, 963 square feet which is just a little bit over a quarter of an acre but the interesting thing is if you look at this bar chart here this is what a statistician would you have larger lot sizes that are dragging up that average size so you see the largest bar there 56 properties have a lot size between 5,1 99,999 Square fet we also broke down average lot sizes based on per street because again when you drive down one street or another Street in Baran City you might see different development patterns so typically Lily Street and Montgomery Street which I group together in that south portion of Baran City typically have the largest lot sizes around 18, 571 F feet Alexander Road which goes in that East West Direction has the smallest average lot size of 10,922 three 23 square feet and we did the same type of analysis for residential dwelling sizes and again you can see the same type of pattern happening the average residential dwelling size is roughly 1,512 Square F feet but 58 properties that largest bar have dwelling sizes somewhere between 1,000 to 1499 Square F feet and if we look at average dwelling sizes per Street we don't see too much of a fluctuation but Alexander Road ironically has some of the largest average lot sizes I'm sorry dwelling sizes even though they have the smallest lot sizes whereas Barry and a uh and Wallace Road have very similar smaller average dwelling sizes and then we have another of non-residential and vacant Lots so going from west to east or left to right uh these are largely concentrated on Alexander Road so we have a mixed Ed building that has a shoe repair store in the front next to that we have Brothers pizzeria and then we have the art center right next to that and then the largest non-residential properties there uh which are the Crawford WS which are preserved so Crawford Woods is preserved nothing will be happening with Crawford WS with this develop or with this study because it is preserved so that's the existing development pattern of the area let's look at the existing zoning in comparison so this zoning map identifies that the majority of Baran city is located in that r1a District we did include one property along Harris Road that is located in the R20 District we included that property because the dwelling was constructed roughly at the same time as those other properties along Harris Road so we just decided to group that in together but the majority of residential dwellings uh in fact the majority of all Lots in Baran City are located in that r1a District the r1a district and the R20 District essentially permit the same uses right it's a predominantly single family dwelling zoning District but it will also allows for home occupations Parks farms uh the salent process of agricultural products which is permitted in all of your zoning districts uh temporary construction buildings accessory uses Community residences buildings owned and Opera by West Windsor the only difference between the permitted uses is that the r1a district allows for veterinary clinics that were in existence as of January 1st 2000 unless I was severely missing something I did not see any vet Clin in Baran City so essentially that is not a applicable use for this for this community both the r1a and the R20 District also establish a number of conditional uses so a conditional use is a use that's District provided it meets conditions if you meet condition one two three and four it's considered to be a permitted use and you go in front of the planning board if you're not meeting one of those it requires a conditional use variance and then it goes in front of the zoning Board of adjust so again both the r1a and the R20 District largely allow for the same types of conditional uses the only differences are the r1a district allows for nursing homes Rest Homes and homes for the Aged as well as an open space cluster now what's an open space cluster development an open space cluster development is a type of permitted zoning uh regulation where if you have a larger lot and you would typically be allowed one acre lots on there the cluster option would allow you to have smaller lot sizes with the remaining space being open space so you might be wondering why is that even a permitted conditional use here we have no larger lot sizes in Baran City well it's a great question you'd be asking and I want you to look at the bulk standards you don't need to memorize these obviously and this presentation is up on the website as well but what I want in mind is that minimum lot area requirement for the r1a district 72,300 square feet in order to have a conforming lot in most of Baran City you need to have a lot area of around 726 square feet just up do we want to guess how many Lots in Baran City have a lot size of two acres it's going to be very little so that sets the stage for this initial zoning analysis so when we look at the totality of Baran City the good news is most of your uses in Baran City are actually compliant only 3% of uses are not compliant however in terms residential lots 100% of your residential lots in Baran City do not meet the minimum lot size requirement why is that important if we go back to this bulk standard all these other regulations that are established the minimum lot Frontage a lot width lot depth a minimum front yard requirement of 40 ft a rear side yard that floor area ratio the Improvement coverage all those bulk standards are based on the assumption that you are going to have a conforming lot so if you have a set lot having a front yard requirement of 40 feet and two side yards of 20 feet and a rear yard of 20 feet that would likely leave you with a larger building envelope where you can put that dwelling and your garage uh your pool it not have to require any type of bar relief when we shrink that lot size down in Baran City those yard requirements stay the same so if you have a 10,000 squ foot lot you are still operating under the assumption that you can only have a front yard of 40 feet rear yard of 20 ft and side yards of 20 feet what that does is that it shrinks down your building envelope and all of a sudden your house either has to be 10 ft wide or you have to go in front of the Zoning Board of adjustment for a bulk variance the same thing goes with floor area ratio a floor area ratio is essentially a control over how large and intense a dwelling can be so the way you calculate a floor area ratio is you take up all the areas of your floors excluding certain uh garages or mechanical spaces but you're taking your living spaces essentially adding that together and dividing it by your total lot area so if you were on a minimum lot size that was compliant of 72,300 square feet and I'm taking out my calculator because I cannot do math you would be allowed a floor area of your house of 12342 Ft which is a very large house if you take a 10,000 foot lot and you multiply that by 0.17 now you're looking at a house size of around 1,700 square feet the smaller lot size you get the smaller of a permitted dwelling you're allowed to have and again any type of variance that you require would have to go in front of the Zoning Board of adjustment now you might be asking why is that a big deal uh essentially when you go in front of the Zony Board of adjustment you have to file an application you have to pay certain fees you have to pay certain escrow so it becomes a bit of a costlier and longer process to build that addition along the back of your house or to construct that garage so when we look at that r1a residential analysis 100% of your properties residential don't meet the lot size requirement same thing goes for lot width you have 97.6% almost none of the lot residential lots in Baran City meet that lot with requirement you can see other knock front yard setback typically your front yard setbacks in baring City are a little bit uh smaller than what's required by the r1a district houses back then were built closer to the street um in terms of floor area ratio how large houses can be we estimated that slightly over half of the properties there are over that limitation so you can see because this r1a district imagins and envisions a larger lot size but it's imposed on an area where you have smaller lot sizes non-conforming conditions increase when we look at some of the non-residential properties these are predominantly located along Alexander Road we have less of non-conforming conditions but 40% of those properties are still not conforming that would really Pizzeria and the mixed use building with the shoe shop right next door and then we do have other pieces of vacant land so I did not consider the Crawford WS be vacant land even though it is vacant but smaller what we would call vacant building Lots 100% of those are obviously not compliant with minimum lot size uh 100% are not uh uh compliant with lot width and lot depth so those vacant lots are also undersized so I do have a series of maps that do identify uh where there uh are non-conformities and where there are conforming conditions so we look at uses we can see that the majority of Baron city is conforming the uses there are permitted as we scroll through we see the exact opposite with lot size the majority of lots are not conforming so these two are fairly basic right we see a lot of conforming lots a lot of not conforming lots and then we start breaking it down to some of the other bulk requirements we can see things get a little bit more complicated so in terms of conforming law Frontage it's about a split but you can see some streets are a little bit more conforming than others lot width generally speaking Baran cities not conforming with the minimum lot width requirement lot de most Lots surprisingly were conforming with lot depth and then front yard we can see there's some discrepancies based on streets but predominantly still not conforming rear yard surprisingly almost every lot was conforming which I guess isn't surprising since houses back then were constructed closer to the street sidey yard it changes based on where you are floor area ratio similar Improvement coverage similar so that was all good information to have but when I was looking at those Maps I realized that looking at Baran city as a whole it paints you a good picture but there seem to be a lot of discrepancies when you go Street by sharet so what we did here is that we broke out Baran City into what I call these sub neighborhoods and it's not based on any exact science admittedly but what I did try to look at were corridors so we looked at Baran Avenue we looked at Scott Avenue South which would be south of Alexander and then Alexander Lily Street in monery Street which we kind of combine together as that southern corner or that southern portion of the study area the Alexander Road Corridor going west to east Harris Road which would be that Eastern extent and then Wallace Road which is the northwesterly portion that kind of faces its own way and we did that similar type of analysis for each of those corridors so we won't go through everything here but we can see the levels of Conformity and non-conformity for each Street and each one as we go through you can see has their own unique levels of Conformity and non-conformity so this is the easy part right we can I look at the existing development pattern I can look at the existing zoning see where things match up see where things don't match up I can do that all day and while it sounds like I'm being negative pointing out all the problems because that's what a zoning analysis typically is I recognize that Baran city is a very important place it's a special area of the township so when I point out these problems that's not saying hey Baran city is the fit this way and that way it's it certainly has these discrepancies with zoning the important thing is identifying what those discrepancies are and then coming up with ideas for how we can potentially address it and the point of this presentation tonight is to let you know this is what we're seeing from of what potential problems are and the next couple steps in this process is identifying how we can potentially address those problems with different solutions and these are different discussion points we can talk about some of these we can not talk about some of these but the point is to solicit feedback from you for things that I might be missing from a Planning and Zoning perspective I can look at a map but you guys live there uh as well as come up with ideas for what you think are some potential Solutions or what we should be investigating what we should be talking about what we should be paying attention to and what we might be missing and that's essentially it for this presentation this was more of an introductory letting you guys know who I am what we're looking at and then beginning the conversation to solicit feedback and understanding from you who live in the community that's all I have for now but I'm willing to take questions from the board from the public whoever which way you'd like to go um before I turn it over to the public anybody from the board want to have a question yes David I have a familiarity question could you bring back up the conforming use image please conforming use okay uh two properties uh that are non-conforming I just can't figure out what they are one is the residential Pro it looks like a residential property it's above the D in Alexander Road the red little red portion between uh Scott Avenue and the Acme Woods I believe that property was approved that have an accessory apartment in the garage Sam does that sound familiar yes that one has an accessory apartment in the garage so we consider that being non that came before zoning right yes okay okay and then the other property would be the uh property near Lily Street and beran Avenue which is also red bottom left right bottom left yeah uh according to the uh real estate listing for that and I double checked with Sam I believe the tax assessor was able to confirm the real estate listing identified that it had about four units in there four units okay yes um so as a backtrack too just explain to everybody where we got this data um the landscape of New Jersey Planning and Zoning has been changing and this gets into a little bit of a nerdy discussion I apologize but a lot of the estimates that we make in terms of setbacks are based on this GIS information geographic information science and its mapping programs that information is going to be mostly accurate but it's certainly not survey accurate so if you look up the individual ual information for your lot you might say Hey you estimated a front yard setback of 15t it's actually 20t that's bound to happen the more complicated factor is something called Daniel's law so Daniel's law was released a couple of years ago which restricts public access to certain aspects of online tax information it was originally geared to protect people in public positions judges police officers counties though have been rolling back the avilability of certain online tax data so before every County used to have their tax information online so I can see largely test the house was that's large going away so I did have some older information based on Old Zony board applications which we received but a lot of this I've had to check back on older resources I had and compare with online uh real estate records which hold from that and is still there so um that was a long-winded way of me saying that's where we got that information from not always 100% accurate but it certainly gives us at least a broad stroke of what we're looking at Curtis you're good okay I I just have a quick followup on that let's say some of the information is incorrect let's say you you have it as you know non-conforming 15 feet it's really 20 feet it's not going to affect anybody it's not going to affect anything we're not we're not making anybody move their house or so let's make sure we that is correct yes uh we won't be making anybody move their house that's really just for uh future ideas if we were to tweak the zoning there and we figure out that the average setback along the street would be you know 15 feet based on those estimates that gives us an idea of where we should be adjusting those front yard setback requirements or wherever the requirement might be um the idea of a study like this very similar to what we did in the Dutch neet Community is not to get every property in conformance that's going to be impossible the idea is to get properties closer in conformance that way they may not require variance or if they do require variance it's not as large or intimidating a variance as what otherwise been required so if you go for a floor area ratio variance and your floor area ratio is 35% compared to allowable of 177% that might seem like a much larger number but if it's around 22% instead of 17% or you know if we increase the allowable and be more increasing the allowable F that would become less of a burden for the applicant so just trying to bring people more into conformance but certainly not trying to make anybody less conforming right and I'll I'll just add a couple things so the only time would be um it would have an effect is if someone was going to do a renovation on the house let's say and they setback wasn't conforming we may ask them to come before the board to you know explain what they're doing and it doesn't mean that we just don't out of hand reject because we've had people come before the board and not conforming and we've approved the application because it made sense to to do it so I just want to make sure that the public is aware of just because your lot may be 5 feet non-conforming it doesn't mean like oh my God you know that's it I can never do a renovation yeah exactly there's a whole process to get a variance um Curtis is on the Zoning Board of adjustment I do see our zoning board chair over there hi Susan um so there is a process to request relief um and so often times when we look at zoning regulations we think of it as the law which it kind of is right it you don't want to break the law but that being said if I'm driving down a highway and I wanna Go 75 instead of 65 I can't try to request that permission beforehand that's a set law zoning is set up in recognition that not every property is going to be able to comply with your zoning regulations so there's a mechanism and a means to ask for relief for some of those standards and that would be for residential property especially in front of the zoning board who sorry I thought you were waving High sorry no that was my fault sorry you'll have a chance to speak I just don't um you're only going 75 if radar says you are that's true too yes okay um okay any anybody else have any questions for Dave before I turn over to the public [Music] to comply or uh it depends on a Case by case basis right so um you're only going to need a variance if you if you're gonna make a res renovation if you know there could be every every lot could be non-conforming there's no reason to get a conforming at this point unless every house wants to make a renovation then maybe um to make it conforming maybe we need to change the setback or the sidey yard but there's no impact if there's no renovation the idea behind this is to make those zoning regulations more uh in tune with the surrounding area so that way when somebody does request a varant in the future that variance isn't so great so theoretically it's designed to make the process a little bit easier or may not even need a variance right there are instances where if you change a zoning ordinance and there's an application in front of the zoning board say for like a use variance that could become a bigger issue so not that this is envisioned here but say hypothetically the board recommends and the council says you know what we don't want single family houses anymore in Baran City it's a prohibited use and then somebody comes in on a vacant lot afterwards and says hey we want to build a vacant or we want to build a new house that's a tough challenge because your governing body just said we don't want this use and somebody wants to build that use now so that would be a potential overruling of zoning regulations with this though tweaking the bulk standards especially it's designed to make that process a little bit easier so it it's always situational but the idea behind the study like this are to get properties either in compliance so they don't need a variance or that the request Advantage relief is not as great as would otherwise be required right we we've done it in other areas where we've changed the bulk standards to just get almost every house every lot I should say in in um in compliance in conf conforming you're not going to get like David says you're not going to get every lot you can look at every number and you're not going to get every lot conforming but if you change if you could change the zoning to get 90% let's say or 80% or 70% whatever that number is all those homes when they make a renovation they won't have Mo most of them won't have to come before the board to get a variance because they'll be conforming neww the new the new requirements yeah I mean to answer your questions we have seen few applications from that area to the zoning board and ctis can correct me but I don't think anything has been denied you may have you may have asked them to come back multiple times with modifications but to my memory I don't remember I mean there have been times when uh in West Windsor Township I want to use that broadly where uh a residential application may have been just a little too much but uh and Susan can correct me if I'm wrong that Susan Abby the chair of the committee I can't remember a a fullblown denial Within the boundaries that we're talking about tonight can you you can okay you speak you can speak to that when you can at public comment thank you um one one question I have it might be beyond the broad it might be beyond the scope of tonight but uh one concern I have and I'm I'm imagining that shared by the residents is um maintaining the character of the community yes all the bulk r regulations that we've talked about with sidey yards and maximum impervious coverage floor area ratio they can help with that but David I'm wondering if you could just broadly talk about What mechanisms a community can use to preserve the character of a neighborhood community like Barian City yeah great question um planning is ultimately a balance of competing interests and a place like Baran City uh other historic neighborhoods throughout West Windsor and New Jersey they all share the same problem of a balancing act between preserving the character of an area and also allowing for homeowners to have some sort of opportunity to upgrade their property right it's always that competing interest of you know we want to maintain how we feel about this area but also sometimes people want a closet in their old bedroom you know it's bedrooms used to be designed without closets there's a number of different mechanisms to help regulate that right and the township already has some of those in place so for example a floor area ratio is designed to uh limit the bulk and size of a house and intensity of a house on a single lot uh that's one of the goals of a floor area ratio requirement some communities also opt to install design criteria so if you're going to build a house this is what we generally want you to look at and those design criteria can be very specific if you go down to Kate May those are very specific regulations uh or they could be more General uh just designs that are complementary to the surrounding development uh sometimes they could be a little bit subjective sometimes they can be a littleit more objective uh but typically you'd be trying to preserve that character of the area through your bulk regulations and potentially design regulations now there's no restriction on color or right um as of right now no uh again we haven't made any recommendations for this area uh but even in Dutch neck I don't think that follow up on the the point in the question you know there's there's houses that go all someone tears down a house and they put something that they feel is in good taste but it does not match the surrounding you know area or the homes of you know in in the surrounding blocks what's to prevent that from happening here especially with the lot sizes are small someone buys two lots they tear down both houses and they build the castle so right now the thing that's preventing that would be the lack of available large lots see in order to build a larger mcmansion like that you would have to be able to buy multiple Lots right next to each other and then combine them together but you're still then contending with your floor area ratio requirement so even if you were to build combined four Lots say they were all 10,000 s feet each you're still looking at a 40,000 foot lot and if you multiply that by a floor area ratio of hold on you guys are quicker than me 133% you'd be looking at around 5200 feet so pretty big house it's still a very big house but don't forget it's gonna be split up two levels as well so the way you prevent yeah but it's 5200 square feet compared to 13 or 1500 square foot homes surrounding it yes it'll it'll it won't it won't conform to the neighborhood it'll be conforming and you know set back inside but it won't conform to the neighborhood all the Lots there are non-conforming unless they get a 72,000 a lot they'd have to go to the zoning board before they knock any home down to get a variance to rebuild anything on a non-conforming lot okay I mean I know that I'm not big on hypotheticals I'm just trying to like there's there's no there's no Zoning for taste right now there there are no design standards that is correct so uh you can have as many roof lines right now as you'd like as long as you're meeting those uh B criteria and F criteria is there any quote resident itial design criteria in West Wind Township uh not for single family no sing No for some of our multif family developments and or commercial developments yeah we do have design criteria there uh for examp but not for single family right now actually the only loose design criteria we have for single family is if there is a subdivision application anywhere in the community um and if it's even a two lot subdivision we do have design criteria that stipulate that the houses can't be identical to one another right they need to be substantially different designs the reason for that is that regulation and the ordinance is trying to prevent cookie cutter houses where they all look the same um so typically if we do have a larger subdivision like that that's single family there needs to be a number of different R residential design standards but that's really the only thing we have if somebody has a vacant lot or they want to knock down a house and build a new one right now no we have no design criteria for what that house can be if you want to do Tor if you want to do uh mid-century modern right now there's no criteria thank you anybody else would have any questions for David nope okay with that said um got an eagle audience um I'll open up to the public whoever would like to step up and speak on tonight's uh agenda item please step up yep well we'll swear everyone in tonight so suan Abby thank you Susan Abby five Scott Avenue I also am the chair of start before you start I'll just swear you in do you swear that do you do you swear or firm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth yes I do thank you um I'm a resident of Baran City and I'm speaking as a resident but I am also the excuse me the chair of the zoning board and I've been on it for about 15 years so uh I've seen a lot of what's come before the Zoning Board in Varian city um just for your information the conforming use the house in the lower the red lower left I believe it's a two family because the address has an A and A B so I would be very surprised if it had four and the same thing with one of the houses on Alexander the one house um across from the Crawford Woods that's very thin that you talked about that that was two building Lots one on Alexander and one on Basco and they wanted to put a garage on Basco so the zoning board said okay because it actually had originally been designed to have a house on it therefore the the board you would agree felt that that was okay to put the garage on there it has yeah I has a full kitchen I don't apartment because in that in that situation it was a uh uh a it it didn't have like a full kitchen we did not allow them to have a full kitchen in [Music] there no um sorry inter you mentioned about tear downs and there have been two in the neighborhood one is that lot we were just discussing and they came in with a house that fits perfectly right off the bat I mean most people if if they're new to the township they probably think it's an original House the second one which was what I was laughing when you said did anybody ever come in with something you know is a house on Lily and that was a very tiny house that had been moved here from one of the Air Force bases and it had been abandoned for 30 years they wanted to tear it down and the applicant came in with a plan for a 4600 square foot house with a Turret in the front and all kinds of things and I think some people in here came to that meeting to talk about it remember we didn't we didn't deny it we said this is not what we're looking for he came back with a 3500 square foot proposal we said you've got to fit in to the character of the neighborhood this this this is just not it and um finally we used an example of a house in Dutch neck that had been built um on an empty lot that was approved that we also had approved that was a four square design which is very common for an old neighborhood and that is is perfect so that that's the history on that so the process works in other words the process worked and I have to say one of the reasons the neighborhood still has the character it has in my opinion is because of the zoning board and the fact that we've said we' we've pushed you got you got to fit in you know we don't want some super angular modern thing uh something that's massive next to you know a little home the majority of the houses um are one or one and a half story and if they're a twostory they have no attic space they have very low pitched hip roof and that's something that I think maybe should be considered when you comes to height because these days people will often build a house and the third and it's basically got a third floor and because the way west Winder calculates height we set it at 35 Sam let me know if I'm correct we set it at 35 but 35 is not the top of the roof it's halfway between the eve and the top of the roof which means the house could be 40 feet tall when you have a house that's only one and a half at the most two stories 40 feet is huge especially if it's going to be next to a one one story home so I I think you might want to take a look at a height and either say I I think I did some calculations on the four squares which are the tallest and I think the house is like 25 ft to the top so you may want to take a look at height uh potentially uh um roof pitches as well I mean you know we had some houses that are on story with very tall roofs and they have Dormers in the back and that's how people expanded their space um I think uh I did a calculation years ago when that big monster was came in um that if the F was set at 18% 95% of the houses would conform and considering there are some lots that are actually half of a lot size from the original that's probably a pretty good I think anything over 90 90% conforming would be uh pretty good so you may want to figure out well what what percentage are we kind of aiming for here what is what is a good number we do as you said there are some places with multiple lots and that can throw off the averages a little bit I'm looking at you ma'am over there and myself who throws off Montgomery she got three basically every four lots and I've got four Lots on Scott so you know that kind of throws off I think um I know at one point um Allison had mentioned years ago that perhaps there should be a designation no New Lots less than 10,000 square feet the average here is now 14,000 square feet whatever because there are a couple of houses usually if they got more than one lot they they centered the house but there are some Lots where it's on the one lot and what had been another lot is there and it probably is pretty small so could decide whether or not there should be a minimum lot size for a new subdivision I don't know if you can make that difference between what's a conforming lot and what creating a new subdivision would would be David you taking these notes right I'm sorry I'm making sure he's taking notes on your suggestions um most of the homes as you said are 1,000 to 2,000 square feet the average is400 I think there's a real need my personal opinion I think there's a real need for a neighborhood with homes this size we don't need to have either condos or a four 5,000 6,000 square foot house I think there's a real need and actually it's a trend to build houses with smaller houses these days um the neighborhood has single people uh married couples couple with a children or two people downsizing retirees it's a good mix starter homes are important I think for people to be able and somebody who's been looking I agree trust me yeah yeah not that those are starter prices but they are starter they may be starter HS the sidey setbacks are really a challenge there are some houses where they have the driveway on one side and then the house is only five feet from the sidey yard set back probably and what the zoning board has always said is put your addition on the back you have typically you probably have a deeper lot than you do wide put the addition on the back it solves two problems uh you don't see it it doesn't change you know the character of the house and also if your house is 5 feet from the property line you can Sam as this correct you can still go back you can follow that existing in the back so if you have a house that's 5 feet you can still add on the back and not have to worry about the 15 foot or 20 foot side yard set back right um there has been an issue a couple of times I know we don't have an HOA and sometimes some HOAs deal with um Landscaping fencing I know there are a lot of uh HOAs that say no solid fencing that's why you'll see you know that type of fencing it can be an issue when you have a house that's five feet from the side this did come up on a house on Scott where the N luckily the neighbor came ahead of time and said hey I'm going to put up a six-foot fence in my backyard and she said oh my please don't I will be looking out of my living room and kitchen window at a barricade so I don't know I have I don't know what that solution should be there are lots of people that have Hedges and fences um maybe the solid fencing or you know maybe it shouldn't be solid fencing maybe it should maybe it goes off the back of the house rather than coming from the the side of the house and back I'm not I'm not sure what do you do if you have a pet and you want to let the pet out in the backyard and it's not fenced in yeah that's isue um you you talked about the uses and it's really pretty much just residential the only things that are not are things that have been there forever firehouse and Brother's Pizza and I I would wonder if we can just say single family residential housing and leave out nursing homes and uh multif family homes and agricultural uses and all of those other things because I think we really want to keep it residential rather than people saying well I'm going to turn this into something else zoning board perhaps um any tear down should go to the zoning board which I guess would just be saying none are allowed you have to go to zoning board which is pretty much the rule already right now um there have been times that people in the neighborhood have said to me well I don't really want them to change the zoning because I want the zoning board to review things because they've done a good job of retaining the character and you know we really can't do that we do need to change the zoning and how we how we use the decisions the zoning board and the criteria the zoning board has used all these years that's the challenge of how do you get that in writing I do I I do myself uh believe that we should be called historic neighborhood and that's a label it's got to be clear to people that it's not you can't paint your house this color you can't do this that the other thing it's a label it's a recognition and it also says to the state and the county don't push your Highway through here that's historic neighborhood you never know what people are planning in the future but it's a recognition what you can do to your house is what's in the zoning details not driven anything at all by that label historic um a big question is going to be what happens with adus and I know we struggle with that on uh the zoning board and I understand that the state is going to be making some decisions as to whether this is going to be included in your F or it's separate from your F which could add an awful lot yes so uh just to interrupt to piggy back on that comment yes so the legislature has come out with with two draft pieces of regarding accessory dwelling units I would be lying to you if I understood if I told you I understood all the rules and regulations in them because they don't make a lot of sense to me but there is a potential that should that legislation pass accessory dwelling units would be permitted on any single family or two family residentially Zone lot it has certain references to a model ordinance which has not yet been crafted but it talks about you can't regulate density it sets a sidey setback requirement but things like Improvement coverage and F I don't know if the legislature always knows what Improvement or fa carage really is so we're waiting to no offense to the legislature but we're waiting to see eventually what that model ordinance is going to look like but that is a huge question mark you're right and my understanding is that an Adu accessory dwelling unit requires a full kitchen and a full bathroom yes yeah you cannot which means this is not just a little building you put in the back with a home office you know or whatever that this is something Beyond I think the minimum which is basically two houses on one lot it was it 400 it said they're established that's bigger than yeah yeah no no I'm sorry it's a it's a maximum 1,200 but minimum 300 that this is a s1106 but maximum height of no less than 20 feet so typically yeah which is kind of high for an accessory structure but uh it's going to be a whole thing uh but we're keep we're definitely keeping our eyes on that but that you're right that's a huge question mark well one of the things to think about that as well is we've got a really old sewer system and water system so if if you allow massive development or or these adus and you know all these other things if you double the number of bathrooms and the number of kitchens and all those things um that could be a real problem we have already replaced our line that goes from the street to the house because it's galvanized pipe yeah so um I I think that would really be a question as to how how much how much bigger the houses should be how many bathrooms and and whatever you should we have successfully added and approved um many additions I think you'd be surprised if you went through the neighborhood and went into some backyards you go oh my God I never knew there was this whole big addition because the front of the house still looks the same and there's a nice big addition on the back four squares with a two-story addition um I think as as to the historic benefit I don't really have a whole lot of historic stuff we have the the farm aspect of it which is fantastic the skank Farmhouse and we have a couple of the older neighborhoods but I think that the planning board and the zoning board over the last 10 years has really been mindful of creating sort of a village look on 571 the two the two buildings one that the zoning board approved and one that the planning board approved that are being built right now bringing closer to the street trying to create more of what looks like it might have been there for a while and I kind of view that and Baran city as sort of being that whole area being part of that whole area with Nash Park Baran City the Crawford woods and the Village Center type development there I think that fits we have our massive thing going on across the tracks so I would um I would hope that we can figure out some way to define what fits in as I said that 4500 square foot thing with the turret the guy came and said I think this really fits in to the character of the neighborhood it is a judgment call so what do you do with that I do have you're interested years ago me and a couple of other residents we made like a little booklet of just what the house styles are they were built um between late 1800 1890 something and the majority of it by the 40s with sporadic here and there um of additional ones and what it is is it just outlines what are the characteristics of these different kinds of houses what features do they have and what are some good ways to add on I have copies for you I have copies for the board okay if it if you want it if you want to accept it and one for Sam thank you Sam can you justan I think that's it I don't know if anybody has any questions a lot of not thank you so much though yeah thank you thank you David I do have a follow-up question to Susan's in particular it's um this idea of historic neighborhood as a design ation uh how is that done in the state of New Jersey without regulating you know doesn't have anything to do with the state unless you apply to be on the state historic register which is not what we're talking about I mean we call we call Edinburg a historic neighborhood so it can be a label at the local level yeah I I don't think you're making a recommendation to make a historic in front of the state it's a label at the local it's a label at the local level just recognition that this is this is what it is this is the character just like pens neck Edinburg Grover's Mill have other communities in the state of New Jersey gone that route I I I represent a couple of communities that actually have you know historic neighborhoods where there's a zoning ordinance adopted and there certain regulations for if you want to tear down houses but this would be more of um uh we'll say historic that idea with any type of future zoning your design standards not necessarily designating the community as historic okay so almost similar to what was discussed with Dutch NE right we weren't looking to necessarily designate Dutch neck as a historic neighborhood but any future zoning or design criteria should keep in mind the historic nature of that area I think it's I think it's an important label for the reason that in the real estate World we've got a lot of money coming in as Investments buying up houses renting them out and they don't care what the the neighborhood looks like and I think that label would also say to applicants of all kinds this is sort of what we're going for okay thank you thank you okay hi there good evening Stacy Fox I'm bar and Avenue thank you do you swear affirm that the testimony shall be the thanks I do um just listening to everything you've been saying tonight if this is still in the planning stages I would love to hear about a permanent denial of lot combining for the purposes of somebody being able to build a much larger home or build up or or buy up four lots and put in apartments um because of our close proximity to the train station I think that puts us in very serious danger of um you know folks coming in and trying to turn it into a big investment for them and so being historic would be something that would help us battle against that um but you know people have a price so there's no saying that warh houses in a row wouldn't sell and then that would make the property vulnerable to going completely out of the character of the neighborhood so I like what Susan said about just single family homes period end of story and then not ever letting them be you know 4,000 square feet or um so that was one thing um the one thing I disagreed with was about um the fences because years ago I lived in Lambertville and the houses were all so close together was like Brooklyn and we all had six foot fences and it really helped us manage our children and pets and privacy and um so I thought that was uh really nice so like if I were to start filling my yard these days with pets and grandkids I would be looking to put up a fence so I don't know if there's a restriction right now um but I'm all for it if folks wanted wanted to do that and as far as accessory dwelling units go um I myself just had an application before the zoning board and it's because there's two things the reason why they're talking about it in Trenton is because there's a huge housing shortage in this state and a lot of our seniors aren't leaving they're not all migrating to Florida anymore they want to stay here and in in my particular case and in a lot of cases people my age they have a multigenerational family situation where 20-some are in transition and want to live home and save money because it's harder than ever for someone that age to buy property or even rent and then they have their parents to take care of like myself I've been trying to convince my mother to move in with me as she becomes less capable and more frail and she refuses to be in my house she wants her own place and so I went before the zoning board um trying to you know we have an old carport we need to tear down I was going to put a guest room for her on the bottom and then another one for any one of our very large we have a large family of five adult children procreating Etc um and I couldn't get that lower level it has to be a garage and you know my hope is that eventually the state will come around and say okay accessory dwelling units are are legal and then I can come back to the zoning board and um hopefully my mom will still be um okay to live where she is with some help um but it's I think it's very important that we find a way to do that so I agree that it's too much like the way Susan described adding on to the side so close to property lines it is difficult and each property has to be looked at um individually in my case I already had a carport in one place so the footprint wouldn't be changing but I know that each house is unique I would just um ask you as you create the rules to think about a creative way that you can um allow for multigenerational families to be able to live together um and not have to move away or um they immedately you know send their ERS to a facility when maybe that's not what we prefer to do so um so that's it thank you okay thank you thank you s cop it's a doc hi just um raise your right hand please and tell us your name and spell youro r n l l o 106 Harris Road thank you do do I'm sorry r a n a l l o you're welcome can you speak into the microphone I think that's the problem just your right hand and do you swear or affirm that the testimony shall go will be the truth yes thank you s first forgive me if I'm kind of all over the place with this I got to few things to cover and I'm going to be a little scattered so I found it interesting that you were talking about character um and trying to keep it similar um I'll bring up for example something that just happened recently at one 14 Harris Road um the house the house does not conform whatsoever I called and asked if it required a variance and I was told it did not because and it was an addition I guess because it was built on the existing Foundation um but if you drive by the house does not conform whatsoever it actually more than doubled in square feet um and I'm just a little bit confused as to earlier it was kind of like things would require variances want it to conform and in this case it doesn't fit the neighborhood Hood whatsoever um at all um in size look and in price um so there's that and then the other thing is living at 106 the neighbor I've lived there my entire life growing up it was you know the house actually at4 that I'm talking about next to that was my grandmother at 110 so I'm very familiar with that property um and I'm friends with the people that live there now and I went in and I looked out the kitchen window and now all you see is huge side of the house it blocks the sunlight it's it just doesn't fit but going back to living at 106 Harris when that household somebody came in wanted to do a remodel from what I recall there was a variance required the first plan was rejected then something was approved it was built I can tell you now I can look out my kitchen window at the sink and I'm looking into their bathroom window things to consider right it's you know you walk out the back door and now you're walking out at a house because the property lines are so close I know a couple houses down they actually share a driveway two houses share one driveway so there's a lot of things that need to be considered and that's why when I saw 114 going up I was really confused that why the was no variance um especially after experiencing what was built directly next to where I live um so these are things that should be taken into account like I don't know if I can ask or how I can find out what would have been required for them to build that it's already built it's too late but did something slip by was it done the way it should have been done I know that it wasn't originally because they started to tear a house down without permits and they had a stop construction issued so they didn't come before the board I don't remember them it went no they didn't need a variance they were well within the 13% F what happened is that the zon permit was issued they were conforming but they failed to get a construction permit and a demolition permit and that's why the construction Department shut them down until they went through the construction division review but it wouldn't any of the variance because it because it met the zoning requirements for that area okay all right it still doesn't conform though as far as what everything looks like like not there are no architectural guidelines so it it met the F the size of the home build I I understand that but from what you were speaking to earlier it was trying to keep things consistent and it's definitely not consistent that's what we're trying to do now with this correct is the outlier that's part of this study is to try to get the character of the neighborhood and maintain the character of neighborhood and if we could do that and keep bulk standards um then a house like this may not be built in the future I know if I recall right I think it was in the 2020 master plan they mentioned that in a blurb about Baran City about things you know maintaining the character it was just a concern because you live there and now this thing goes up I mean I think we all know that the house next to St David's I mean if you live in town you know that house it's you don't want to run into those situations I'm not bashing it but it doesn't fit thank I hear you yeah hi how are you could you raise your right hand um state your name spell your name and um I'll spr you in uh hi um Jacob dick uh spelled j a c o b d k uh I live at 11 haris Road um I'm actually the house Kevin was talking about and do you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth yes thank you um yeah so I I kind of agree with a lot of what a lot of what Kevin said um regarding the historic nature of the of Baran City I kind of like the idea that there's like they're like quaint houses and they're part of what makes Baran City kind of unique is that every house is a little bit different but everybody kind of has historical character to it so I think with the um with uh the new with like a when when thinking about zoning codes I think um it architecture maybe some architectural guidance should be considered but at the same time I I do kind of see part of the problem I think that comes along with investors the reason they come in is because a lot of people will sell their house um because the house that they live in might not fit the family that they have um so for example in my family I I moved in when the um I moved in when uh I had no kids it was just me and my wife and now we have two kids and we have one bathroom that's a bit yeah it's a bit it's a bit of a challenge uh there's a lineup every morning it's not not a fun situation um so um you know we're thinking about making an addition um and you know I think part of what should be considered with the new zoning requirements is um the idea of like neighborhood kind of permanence I don't know if that's the term for it but it's the idea of trying to keep families in their home where they are um instead of having them move out because in this real estate market to buy another house in West Windsor because I I love West Windsor that's like that's we moved here I live it's convenient they have good schools there's a good Community there's lots of activities for people to do um you know in the today's real estate market if you know I wouldn't be able to stay in West Winds there there 8% interest rates and you know houses that go for a million dollars the house next door 114 just sold for a million dollars so any house that I would try and buy would be somewhere and this is not about me but I'm just saying the idea is I think we should consider trying to make it so that maybe that people can put on Modest additions that would try and keep families in their homes that's kind of instead of kind of making it so they either have to kind of suffer with what they have or move out you know so but um but yeah as for architectural Styles I think the house next door doesn't match at all they it technically meets all the zoning requirements for Baran City but Baran city has lots that are different shapes and sizes I think the r1c zoning code is for acre and 38s or something and my my lot is quarter acre but so it's it's uh definitely doesn't conform but technically his conformed and but it doesn't match the neighborhood so I think that's kind of okay that needs to be considered um so okay thank thank you for thank you for thank you listening 114 million4 that was different address 110 East 110 hi uh could you raise your right hand and do you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth yes and please give us your name and and spell it for us Susan s n conin c n l n and I live at 9 8 Harris Road you just heard from a couple of my neighbors Jacob and Kevin so I kind of like to follow up to their comments and you know the house that they were referring to um that I believe is now under contract um I agree that that house is totally out of scale and out of character um for the for the ne um our neighborhood and while I understand that it may have met the requirements for them to proceed to construct that house um there's the result of that house I think should be like a cautionary tale do we want to end up with more houses like that in the neighborhood and I would think most people here you know they can express their own opinions but I would think no I mean I you know I I it it's about six or seven houses down from me you know I kind of understand it um how this all to took place but that's with some more guidelines and with some more direct involvement and oversight I think we could have had a much nicer house in that location and it would have fit um with the character of the neighborhood I Curtis I really appreciate your comments that you um um said earlier I think that really is the key here to recognize and respect the character of the neighborhood and work with that be you know in the flow with that and not against it I'll also say that in some of the applications that have passed and I've been to a few of those zoning board meetings and I think the board does a good job that's the board that's who we have now that could change two years five years we could have different people who have who don't have the same um concerns or considerations and you know so I think that establishing some guidelines is probably a good idea and um the other thing I think to think about is a few of you mentioned when people want to come in and do renovations to their house and I we do see a lot of that I we we did a um renovation to the back of our house 200 uh one or 2002 um and I totally get that I think it's um great for people to be able to expand their house and and stay in their house a lot of people they move here into baring City and they don't necessarily want to move to another neighborhood so I'm I'm in favor of that but there's difference between people coming in because they want an expansion to the house they live in and investors coming in who want to take a house and just make it bigger and make a bigger buck and you know I know that probably legally you can't um discern and make um decisions based on on those judgments but you know I think that we as residents we are concerned about with that we want to see that the changes being made to the neighborhood um that that we're having respect for the character of the neighborhood and for our neighbors and uh just to um second what Stacy said about um there is a critical housing shortage and I think we have to um address that and be realistic about that and if perhaps at some point accessory dwelling units become a part of um you know of um more people start using those I'm just curious um and maybe you can speak to to whether that would be applied um throughout the entire Township so if the state passes legislation then that would apply for every single uh and two families zoning District in New Jersey so it would be applicable not only here but in everywhere else in West Windsor if the legislation does not pass um municipalities still have the option of adopting regulations pertaining to accessory dwelling units and they can stipulate where they can be located including zoning districts sizes um Heights things like that so if the state passes that legislation then it'll be everywhere if they don't then municipalities still maintain that option of do they want it and if so where and have decide where then how much okay so thank you and and just the last thing I'll say is that I think this is a really good meeting tonight um I commend you for uh working on this plan putting it on the website so that everybody could see it in advance um having the the meeting not uh notice so that the public could come out we're learning more about this we heard a lot of good things tonight and I would just hope that as a Next Step that you as you get to the next um part of this um study that you have another meeting like this and um talk to the um talk to the residents about what you think um is the next part of the process including those guidelines so thank you so uh Susan the hearing is being taped so anybody it will be on our website so anybody who is not here today want to watch the whole meeting it is on our website it will be permanently on our website uh the whole purpose of this hearing is to get feedback so I would encourage all of you to tell us what you like what you don't like so then these gentlemen can go and do uh go ahead and do some kind of a document that will be discussed again in public so we have a long way from finishing but this whole exercise of today is to gather feedback from everybody involved um and if you all agree 100% makes our life easy no problem well you know that's never going to happen but so so then you suggested oh people should offer more feedback and how would you suggest that's another meeting like this or letters or emails this could be a year process in front of the planning board so there Dave and I'll will take whatever recommendations come from the public in the board we'll put it into a more formal document that I'll put up on the website I'll send it out to whoever wants to get it and then we'll have another meeting here and we'll we'll go through that so there's no time frame on when we want to get it done it could be a year before it even leaves the planning board and goes to council great and it could be that you know the next step taking some of those recommendations thoughts putting it in a format making recommendations about certain zoning or designed guidelines I could present it and everybody here can say I hate that and that would be completely fine I would I don't wouldn't take personal offense to that and then we would take what your comment would be and rework it again and again and again the good thing is as Sam was saying we can take our time with this because there's really no deadline in terms of getting this done so we can really take our time and do it the right way great all right thank you thanks to the transparency thank you uh regarding comments several people have you made about maintaining the character there was a request to do similar thing in other neighborhood if you all can decide what the character is then it again makes it lot easier to Define and just one clarification for the thing come up for Sam if a new home builder doesn't need a variance then all it happens is you approve the zoning and goes to Jason right and Jason has no say in how ugly it looks or how beautiful it looks okay so if it's complying then really the township all we do is it it uh confirms with the state code then there's not much we can do we may look at it what we can do but at present not much we can do for affirm that the testimony should give will be the truth I do thank you please tell us your name and spell it John Karan k r an 5 Scott Avenue I'd like to make a couple comments about parameters um and brought the the character design design parameters and and that that sort of thing you also brought up the thing about the U most conforming aspect of all of these Lots was basically the rear uh the rear um setback um that might be a good way to approach most of the um Renovations that anybody might like to do possibly set a percentage of the entire F and use that as a limit for how far you would go so that maybe you wouldn't have to go all the way back block somebody else's view so if there's a certain percentage you could go back so that you know you just wouldn't double the house and go back that far that you you mess set up for your neighbor uh one of the other things possibly is is total height of houses um I'll just throw a number out say 30 feet would be a good height at the peak most people could get their two floors in uh our house has a a 9 foot ceiling on the first floor8 and A2 foot on the second floor and the the the house is 26 from the the ground at the peak and that's very comfortable um and our roof line is also um incorporating a shed Dormer approach that also brings up what I would think is an important thing that might help with the design parameters is maybe establish certain roof lines that are basically like you have your manard roof you have certain hips um shed Dormers ways that the actual roof can incorporate a second floor and still reach only that Peak that Peak height that you have in a house um what else is it um there are a lot of architectural plans um that for new houses that have old styles with them so there there lots of plans that are out there people search for search for things like that um but again I'd like to see if we could retain the character of the neighborhood which I agree with people go said basically it thank you I do you swear or affirm that the testimony you shall give will be the truth I do thank you so sworn and um please give us your name and spelled my name is island green a y l i n g re n and I represent the West Windsor Arts Council located at 952 Alexander Road yeah yes you too um so we're um part we feel very much a part of the neighborhood in Baran City and um was interested in the zoning study and in you know the master plan in general and um just wanted to talk a little bit about our future vision for our use of the of the firehouse building and um how that might be considered in when we're looking at planning in the neighborhood um we moved in in 2010 and um were very new non-profit organization at that time and that's when we started offering classes and performances and you know various community events um both at that location and other places around the township and um so in the you know ensuing 14 years we've continued to grow and we now find ourselves um you know kind of starting to Max max out on what we have available within the portion of the building that we are in currently which is about half of the building so um there is another part of the building which um I think was from the beginning sort of part of the vision uh for the art center that we might eventually be able to utilize that as well um for you know further expanding our our offerings for the community um but we're not sure whether that you know will occur or not um we've been sort of given some um information that perhaps not because there are zoning uh problems um especially with parking for the Arts Council and so uh you know since this is a brainstorming session I just wanted to share the intention or the the desire of the art center to to if we can grow into that side to be able to do that and to be able to find solutions to any parking uh you know problems that there might be that might be caused by that um one area that we currently have is that we have an agreement with the um train station the the parking authority um to be able to use part of the Wallace slot which we have been doing uh more and more in the last few years so you know things like that you know Finding solutions to make sure that we don't negatively impact the neighborhood we want to be a positive influence in the neighborhood um we want to attract people to the art center um to enjoy it to get together and to form form you know stronger Bonds in the community um so um you know that but that might require some more partnership with Planning and Zoning to en enable us to grow to really be able to serve the community fully um so that's basically that you know what I wanted to say um that might include things also to help people really um view us as an art center I think you know this is a little bit in tension with the historical you know nature of the building um it's also not registered you know officially historical but it is a historic building um and it's looks like a firehouse so that is some a bit of a problem for us in some ways we want to maintain it but we also want people to know that that this is a place where the Arts happen and we find more often than not people still think it's a firehouse and even refer to it as the firehouse so um just wanted that to be part of the discussion as well that we maybe look at ways that we can improve upon that um perception of the use of the building okay thank you hi you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth so sworen first name is Aisha a e last name is AK i n c g i l I'm not going to pronounce it um first of all as one member of the Baran oh I also live in for Baran as one M the Baran City I if you have a non-residential use I think one of the best things that happen to the area is the art center I think it brings value it makes our community stronger as one member I am really in favor of keeping the Art Center and allowing him to grow um the other thing I wanted to ask you is uh the nature of the neighborhood I don't know how much we can do about the trees but I'm not sure if 114 would have happened if they weren't allowed to cut some trees and that really changes you know cutting cutting an amazing old tree if it's not necessary from a public health perspective really changes the nature of the neighborhood too so if there's anything that could be done I know Princeton has some stuff on on that but I don't know if can be even part of the planning board's perview yeah I could take a look I don't necessarily know the Township's tree ordinance I do know and Sam you can correct me if I'm wrong but the njd New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection the state just for us yes yeah passed a new new tree ordinance so the state was requiring municipalities to pass a new tree ordinance um for the whole state yes not just I'm sorry just westlander um and I that's more of an engineering related thing but I believe that tree ordinance is a lot more strict than what was previously required by the state hold on you need to be sworn in you SAR the testimony she'll thank you can and yeah I do um right now we have introduced the new tree ordinance um what the DP is requiring is that you can still cut down trees or trim trees you can still cut down trees that are sick or are dangerous trees but that for healthy trees then there's a maximum that you can cut down without permission of Three Trees over a 5year rolling period however that doesn't mean that you can't cut the trees down it means that you have to replace them according to the law so you either have to replace them on your property with trees that are um that are set by lore if it's if it's and this is set by the D if a tree is um it starts with trees that are six inches in uh diameter and then if you um then you would have to replace it with a certain size tree if you go up to another size you have to replace with bigger tree and you do have to and there's how many trees you have to use as a replacement and then if you have no room to put those trees you can pay the town uh to plant trees somewhere else and and we're not encouraging that we would much prefer um based on our pricing that we would uh like people to replace their own trees but the tree ordinance doesn't say you can't cut down a tree it essentially provides that you have to make Replacements somewhere if if you do is that pretty much the way everybody remembers that and that would apply to Residential Properties yeah uh right now we do have most of that in our tree ordinance for uh larger properties but this is now uh the what the DP is is H the main change to our ordinance is that this is now for Residential Properties also thank yeah there's going to be a hearing on uh April 29th which is our next council meeting on that particular um law if anybody does want to um want to come to the hearing and the copies of the ordinance are on the website because we um introduced them uh introduced it at the last meeting thank you yes can I can I ask Andrew one question first you said that that's on the 29th of April right the um the uh D wants us to adopt the ordinance by the 1st of May so we are we have been working on this and the shade tree commission the shade tree commission worked with engineering on this for quite some time then it was brought to the council uh the council did some work on it we had Dan Doom milski come before the council and we had a um we had some uh informal discussions on it and then we had our introduction at the last meeting and we're going to have the final hearing on the 29th and that should be the evening that we would attempt to adopt it yes it will be adopted now obviously we still have to vote on it at this point I think it's um we've um talked about it a lot um we've made some modifications to make it uh a little more consumer friendly um we're and I believe it doesn't take effect until six months after we pass it in in order to give time to every to uh inform everybody and to inform the companies that cut trees down that we have this ordinance and what they have to do to comply with it so um that's that's the scheduling for it now okay thank so if I understand correctly there will be an ordinance that that will be you know uh adopted will allow for Replacements within property so that might not be one solution to protect the nature of the township because 114 wouldn't have happened if that three wasn't allowed to cut okay thank you hi please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that the testimony shall go will be the truth yes thank you and please give us your name and spell it Dave Kimmel K mm L I live at 11 Scott Avenue so uh like others have said thank you for the presentation and starting this discussion and I agree with many of the comments that people have said just had a few additional uh questions and comments maybe to clarify for for going back to the beginning or the history of things I feel like the neighborhood probably existed before the zoning so is there any information that could be provided now or later on like how and when the current R1 a zoning was put in place and if we knew what you know the conditions are is there a reason that we put the the uh the current zoning in place that we would have to do some historic research because you're you're right that the district I think began development what would we say 1910s 1920s uh most zoning ordinances did not exist at that time I don't think the state enabling act happened yet so uh we can certainly look to see older files and see what we can find if we can find something it doesn't change the current conditions but maybe it has some I don't know some good historical information that has something there is not just uh good to know um also we've been talking about considering different design guidelines but just to clarify we're also correctly correct talking about changing the bulk standards is that right potentially one of the ideas um those would be the two main ways you would regulate development patterns through bulk criteria as well as through design standards right so we've been talking about maintaining the character and at one point the mayor commented uh if you can Define what the character is then that would help so to the extent that if we're looking at making the zoning match the bulk the bulk standards Etc of the zoning match the current character then is that correct that would prevent huge developments and things that people are concerned about one of the steps to stop that yes somebody can always request a variance but you would at least have designed guidelines to better guide people for what you want your development to look like okay and then following up on the idea of maintaining the character of the neighborhood which is something I also agree with um I'm interested to potentially request or encourage you know there's some arbitrariness to how the outlines of baring City are drawn there's the part on Harris that is not most of it's in the the r1a but then there was also R20 and we saw the uh permitted uses and conditional uses I think part of the character of the neighborhood also is the Crawford Woods the open space and the currently open space but not preserved Acme Woods which was mentioned at some point so even that even though that was not in the outline of what we saw tonight I think that that could be part of this study like how can what's the what are the current permitted uses and condition uses for that property which I think is in the R1 C Zone and uh what's the analysis that we should have about that to make sure that what we see happens there such as preservation or something else if something else is desired uh would be appropriate what people want so can that be part of the study too um also we did see that whole list of permitted uses condition uses uh before deleting without much thought everything I I think uh take a take a take a close look at that also because some of them may be uh helpful or useful uh I know there aren't any large Farms but it's a permitted use throughout the town and food security food production even on a small scale uh is important uh so just be careful before we delete things um and then one other question going back to something else on the agenda the thing that was the uh ER UDC West Winder LLC resolution about that um drive-thru or gas station whatever that was postponed to the next meeting it sounded like they're reviewing a resolution but I didn't see a resolution on the website is that something that's also typically should be made available to the public the resolution should not post that if they're not approved you could call the office and we can give you a draft one but the resolutions change right up until the night of the meeting so those are typically not on the website they're not posted on the agenda no once they're approved then they're posted all right thank you thank you hi do you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth yes thank you so swor and please give us your name thank you William rutage w i l l i a m r tle d g you can call me Burr um I've spoken for many of you uh thank you again for serving it's really important raise that 19 Scott right in the middle of the X so um on Alexander corner lot the I've spoken with many of you over the years thank you very much um for everything you do for the community when we moved here my wife you know we were a little concerned about how small the house was um but I think she summed it up very quickly she said if we were an H g TV Community we would be called big on charm small on space so if we can figure out a way to put that into the regulations um I've got some ideas if people have combined Lots you know they're only able to build a single unit that matches the size of what would have been permitted from the smallest of the Lots they've combined if they want to do multiple accessory dwellings and so on you know just thinking out loud way to prevent um potentially I don't know 14 Harris but I'm assuming it's got to be one of the bigger Lots if they were able to build uh you know what was the square footage 3,000 2500 I think so you know twice as big as my house but my house is also I believe I do own the neighboring lot 17 Scott which I pulled up the records um could be the smallest lot in West Windsor uh 282 square feet so my lot is smaller than the house that was built on that on the neighboring property um at any rate Just Thoughts big un charm small space um can you go to the some of the maps I found them really interesting and I apologize I hadn't looked at them ahead of time um conforming use we already discussed is residential neighborhood even though there's other uses allowed um with some kind of old exceptions right um so we'd like to maintain that I would think um lot size yeah very very few maybe 114 is the one that's in blue there I don't know um over on Harris so um lot Frontage again I none of my mine will never comply um that's okay the if you look at go to like some of the charts where we saw the average sizes of the Lots um I don't know if there's any way to to work the the lot size um you know again the average is X number of square feet so even if you own a larger lot the largest single unit you can use is based on the average of your neighbors you know something like that um again just to try to keep it small and size big on charm um those are just a couple of the thoughts I've got I really appreciate again the opportunity to listen and speak my mind and hopefully we have more opportunities thank you BT or b b r r okay because I might steal that quote and if I do I will credit you in the Govern credit my wife Jennifer make sure you Foote that hi do you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth yes thank you and please give us your name my name is dun Salam d o n i a my last name is Salem s a l e m I live at a Scott uh I've been a resident of West Windsor for 35 years I grew up in Windsor Park Estates over by Conover fields and have been at in um Baran City since 2016 I'm a single parent uh it's just me and my 17-year-old this is one of the only places that I can be afford to be in West Windor um my brother's childhood best friend grew up across the street from where where I live now um so we are a deeply committed family to West Windsor my father was on the zoning board for many years shiai Sal Salem um and my mom is Margo there we go hi um yeah so just really appreciating everything that's been shared tonight um also appreciating um very much my child was raised um since 2010 in the Arts Council attending so many camps so many classes I am an artist an interdisiplinary artist myself um it's very crucial and I think any ways to support its expansion you know of course within saying within the character of the area everything I think also the connection I think the art Council can be a really beautiful Ambassador for West Windsor in general and for Baran City in general and carry the spirit of the place too I think any ways that that can be supported should be like we can rally behind um how how wonderful that like great such life and vitality is infused in the area via the Arts Council I also think there's a lot of exciting site specific art projects that can be developed that can also enhance and highlight some of these more historic areas of West W um and this way other PE you know as West Windsor has grown people that are not connected to the historic significance of particular areas these are these are hubs that can actually invite the larger Community to come and learn and be connected um to the roots of the place in significant ways I think that's something that we as a community should can invest in and should invest in and there's like infinite Dynamic possibilities there um also so uh I'm an herbalist I do think um having agricultural possibilities right even in terms of like I grow herbs in my um in my home Garden right um and utilize them in working with clients so that's something that I think should continue and while discernment should be applied as other people have talked about ways that property can be used you know not necessarily like a free-for-all of that massive list but thinking about ways deeply appreciating this point about um sustainability and food um sovereignty also um for residents in particularly like definitely even you know I'm a single income household is rough some months for me so being able to grow my own food is really important too and having um possibilities of um generating income that way um there's something else to yeah just appreciating all that and also about the Acme woods and naming that that what happens there will significantly affect the flavor in every way of of Barian City so just thinking about like this this Z like this the expensiveness that ripples out especially since we know already so many shifts are coming with the development that's happening on the other side of the of the train station thank you so much appreciate it hi please raise your hand and um I'll swear you in do you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth I do thank you what is your name Sir Paul liy uh p a l l i GE TI um and I'm at two Sleepy Hollow Lane and I'm admittedly not a bearing City resident but I'm sure most of you know that I'm the vice president of the Historical Society West Windsor for those who don't know what the historical society is we are a nonprofit we've been around since 1983 and we uh document and publicize local history we also have a museum uh on Southfield Road I just want to touch on a few points that were said today uh one of them I think by Susan Abby was this idea of branding Baran City more and of course the Historic Society would naturally be in support of this whether or not it's sorry history with a capital AG or history with a lower lowercase H so anything the planning board can do to to promote Baran city as a historic identity and it's heartening to see how many people are kind of latching onto this and caring about this history here of course the historic study would be in support of uh because one of the things that we've seen over the years is especially as the township has expanded so much right it's it's tripled in size in the past you know 50 years roughly um is that fewer and fewer people are recognizing the recognizing the history of the places they move into so anything that can be done in terms of branding to help newcomers and even people who currently live here uh to understand that places like Baran City have unique cultures have unique histories have unique architecture um and and obviously lot sizes is a big thing too um anything uh that helps promote that the Historic Society would support too thank you thank you the map too because I stole that from your website hi do you swear or affirm that the testimony she'll give will be the truth yes thank you and please give us your name uh good evening Tanya lety that's Lu DZ and Delta DZ and Delta y uh I reside at 26 Scott Avenue I'm a newer resident to uh Baran City so last three years um but I wanted just to have my voice heard and Echo some of the sentiments that um my neighbors have shared here this evening so I'll start at the Arts Council uh it has been truly amazing for us to take advantage of this building so close to us I have 11-year-old daughter um she's in the dual immersion program within the town and for those of you who are not familiar with child psychology uh as soon as you expose children to multiple languages at a very early age the propensity for art increases so it's been really amazing and beneficial for our family to have a center walking distance from our home so uh it would be great to see if we can come to some kind of agreement to keep them in the neighborhood so I agree with a lot of those sentiments uh the second thing I'd also like to Echo is the character of the uh neighborhood we specifically chose Baran City for the character although I present very young I'm not interested in a mcmansion I detest cookie cutter houses I don't aspire to live in a mcmansion so I would love for us to keep um as many of the residents has shared uh the character of the neighborhood I also want to acknowledge um the need when we think about multi-generational families as well as accessory uh dwelling units I just wanted to share right many people think about children uh but for me what's front and center is aging parents uh that's something I think about very often I have a mother-in-law who has Alzheimer's so perhaps at some point she may need to dwell with us also have two um parents I think they're still young mid 70s but at some point they most like will need to move in with us um I would like to not send them to a home I feel it's my duty so wanted to Echo the sentiments but I think at the end of the day right as we go through these exercises we can find compromise right and if we can all act together and then the last uh point that I'd like to also have my voice heard and comment on is the uh historic with the lower C H I believe is what I've heard um I think that's a wonderful idea and the neighborhood has a lot of Rich history so it' be nice to be recognized with a lowercase H and thank you to all of you for serving and thank you for letting me be heard this evening thank you hi my name is Mary condo m a r y KO o n d o I live at six Barian Avenue do you do you swear airm that the testimony will be um I just wanted to kind of AA as my neighbor and um on the other side there was just a kind of a clear cutting yesterday it was um it's a new purchase I invited them here but they didn't come um they cut down really the six large trees and so did you see it well I get a lot of light now but my concern is and I wanted it on record to how big their house could be so they have a double lot which I think you know because mine is a quarter so it's probably about a half acre could they build like a 2500 square foot house and would it have to go back because they're side by side you know because it's Southern light on my side and like and Harris I don't know if you consider it when the houses are really close our houses are really close like when they were talking the five feet clear side clearance we're close to that like we see everybody's everything and we to maintain we try to maintain like blinds but but in Ser in seriousness like if they build a two-story house that is 2800 square feet all the way back we may never see Sun so and oh so and then that would be one without a variance too so I wouldn't even know it was going up until they start potenti really next to my house like like from me to you is I can see and I call it Art's house because art art Harvey it is Art Harvey's house um he was there since what the 80s I think yeah and so I mean the new people seem lovely so I'm not dissing them I just you know I want to be prepared so if you could tell me I don't know could you tell me so if there was a Halfacre lot yes that 21,780 square feet the allowable F and I think I misspoke before so I apologize I said 17% it's actually 133% yes so the allowable F would be 133% so be like 2800 taking that number you would be looking at 2800 feet yeah that's a really big house because my house is 1100 square F feet and so that would be like one in a half of my you know my house plus one and a half houses and I see the one on Harris and I see the bird's eye view of that little tiny house next to that really big house and that big house is on the east side of that little tiny house with their very very small side variants those people don't get light and you kind of live in an area it's a neighborhood you have yards you expect some some light you know it's not like you're you're in a more urban setting where there's row houses that are facing you know like they don't even have Windows on the side and so it's a concern and I just wanted to put it out there because since there was the clearing there will be building and I don't know I don't know am I able to find out if they've been approved I I vaguely remember that house um I think the gentleman who used to own it passed away he did not he just has Dimension they moved him to someone else who was handling the estate theer was sold a young couple did buy it and they will be putting an addition on that house it conforms to the zoning it conforms to the zoning and can I find out how big it is so I can prepare myself you get my office a call tomorrow give us the address and it up for you all right because okay thank you that's all is it um are you finished I guess she's finished okay do you SAR confirm that the testimony she give will be the truth yes thank you please give us your name it's Isabelle casden i a b l casden k a s as in Sam d as in David i n s and Nancy um what's your address it's a 11 Scott Avenue thank you um I guess I just wanted to jump off of what one of our neighbors was just commenting on to just reemphasize that I think a lot of the conversations tonight have been about design guidelines and thinking about the character of the neighborhood from sort of like an aesthetic point of view but I think a lot of the comments have been concerns about scale and so I I I think what I'm hearing and maybe everyone could disagree with me is that the scale is what really gets people more over more so than the aesthetic of what's being constructed or maybe what's being added on to so I guess I just wanted to emphasize that as you all consider solutions to the non-conformance of what's currently in the neighborhood to what the zoning currently says that I would be more in favor of taking a hard look at the bulk standards rather than design guidelines because that feels like a much more of a an instrument that could really objectively address some of these concerns around scale and design guidelines are more subjective and while we could probably consider both I think if these bulk standards had been updated or had been written originally to be more in alignment with what the neighborhood actually was like when they were first created then we wouldn't be in a situation where we would have these larger construction projects that are so out of scale with what is currently in the neighborhood because you know when you're looking at guidelines that are relative to a minimum lot area that simply doesn't exist even within like orders of magnitude doesn't exist then that's when you get these larger projects so just to say that I would be in favor of of taking a closer look at the bulk standards as we're considering Solutions um but then also to say that my husband and I are new firsttime homeowners and we purchased in Baran City and I just wanted to emphasize what some other folks had said that the importance of neighborhoods with small homes can't be overstated that it's very difficult to find neighborhoods like this um in New Jersey in this part of New Jersey and it's so important just for so many reasons for affordability for sustainability like we need to be leaning into homes of this scale more and it's not a bad thing to encourage people to live we're all Testament to the fact that you can live in small spaces I think people are afraid of that sometimes but it is comfortable and doable it's and so so much better for society and the environment for so many reasons so I I just think that it's not a bad thing to be encouraging people to be in conformance with that not only from an aesthetic point of view so thank you thank you is there anyone else that would like to uh speak please step up okay and there will be multiple AB about you sto my thund sorry um do I I was going to say that it it people that maybe um didn't step up to speak tonight but they probably heard some of their neighbors uh iterate a lot of things that they're feeling thinking about seeing um David's going to take all of this information all your feedback the questions the board has asked he's gonna put it together come up with some solutions that kind of address a lot of things that you're thinking and have stated here tonight and there'll be multiple opportunities to come and look at what he's come up with in regards to bulk standards um character issues uh lot sizes so on and so forth and they'll you'll have more opportunity to to address that did I miss anything David no like I said uh thank you all very much for all the comments like I said I I can do a zoning analysis but you all live in Baran City so you understand that flavor did you okay we have a one more hi just raise your right hand do you swear bran 31 bar AV raise your right hand you swear orir that the testimony she give will be the truth did you catch name no name and address please 31 Baran Avenue and your name again name Bob branek spell your last name please b r a n c h e k thank you I wanted to add that people that might be interested in uh or or would have to do a variance in a future attend a variance meeting other than their own to get an idea what the process is like because I've done that and I found it vigorous but it was very fair um experience so it's very worthwhile also I've lived um in Baran City since 1983 the neighborhood is overall better than it was for the entire duration of time including preserving the character of the neighborhood so I think the uh zoning board has done a very good job over that period of time that's all thank you and I uh I appreciate your comment on fair fair variance uh hearings because I think we all try to be fair when someone comes before us and on the plus side if you go to a zon Board hearing you get to listen to me talk again so that's maybe not a selling point I'm sorry um okay sure um given some of the concerns of the residents uh about current projects does that influence the timetable for you know making these changes and in decisions I mean it sounds like there are some things that are maybe too late but uh I think there are concerns about future possibilities so how does that affect the time table of this work it's a good question um so on the one hand we don't have any time limitations statutorily right so we can take our time and kind of vet this through but while we take our time and vet this through zoning board applications can still be submitted for or applications for something that might not necessarily fit in the character so it is a balancing act right on the one hand we don't want to rush things we want to make sure that we're covering all our bases and really vetting ideas out but at the same time we do want to make forward progress so that way those concerns that have been expressed tonight won't necessarily manifest in the near future so that's a very longwinded me of longwinded way of me saying I don't know that the answer necessarily uh we don't want to drag our feet but we don't want to go too quickly so um it's gonna be a balancing act so I don't know the answer to that uh it'll depend a lot on what you guys think and what the board thinks as well uh but it's a certainly something to keep in mind she meant how and correct me if I'm wrong she meant new things that are being built that are conforming but people feel are too big exact yes exactly I think that's yeah yeah um there's nothing stopping that right now so nothing you can do yeah U just quickly I think the fact that we heard from so many people about 114 har excuse me Harris I think that's indicative of how not having any guidelines in writing about what something should look like and the standards that should meet if it otherwise conforms there will be no review there will be no say and I think you could see how upset people were about what what went there they have a very big lot which we have double and triple Lots they had one of the big ones they didn't need a variance so they could do whatever they wanted okay um okay you have any closing words uh no just again thank you very much I appreciate everybody's comments I know this is you know later than most people stay out usually on a Wednesday night so I appreciate you coming out and speaking with this is I mean not not necessarily for you guys um so we're gonna take these ideas we're going to play around with it we're going to take your considerations uh and thoughts and begin to formulate ideas for how we can kind of correct some of these concerns and inconsistencies so as we put out those ideas I'll just reiterate this again there might be ideas that I come up with that you all on the board absolutely hate and that's part of the process so we vet that out we discuss it maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right but maintaining this dialogue is the important part of the process so again I want to thank everybody you've been very helpful wred us with a lot of information and gave me a lot to think about so I'll begin dissecting this and coming up with some ideas for how we can incorporate this into a plan so thank you very much thank you everybody I'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing second second anybody sign all in favor say I I I hey I remember to close the public hearing making progress Mak Mo makeing move