##VIDEO ID:qb9XDguZWzY## the the October 16 2024 planning board meetings called to order this is to advise that the notice of the time date location and to the extent known agenda subject meeting was prominently posted in the public place reserved for such or similar announcements on October 7th and transmit to the times the princ and packet in the West Windsor and Plainsboro news on October 7 2024 and filed with the Township Clerk on October 7 2024 Sydney please call the roll Mr Patel Mr Lao here Mr shael here Mr pan Cove Mr beg Miss Barry Miss appelgate councilman Whitfield here mayor Marat mayor Marat yes Vice chairman hberman here chairman carp here and Mr bag is on his way in Mr B we we'll announce him when he gets in um we have a quum thank you um we have a pretty packed agenda so I'm going to there's a lot of things on it so we're going to get moving along um first thing is uh anybody from the public wish to speak on a non-agenda non- pending item please step up to the microphone state your name and address for the record see none okay thank you um comments just general comments Michael sure okay um uh at the Wawa uh ribbon cutting Michael and I were both there and we ran into Kristen Applegate who um I've had this question in my mind you know is there ever going to be a uh ribbon cutting or grand opening for the Lakeside Campus of Princeton University an application that we did many uh meetings on about and in fact lakeside's coming to us in a couple weeks uh Beyond this at the next meeting and she said there's going to be a spring 2025 event uh that we're going to get invited too um and the mayor will keep us posted on that okay thank you um I just want to notice that Mr Bag is now present thank you um Andis hi do you have a environmental commission no I did not have last week meeting I was out of town okay no problem thank you uh for affordable housing jica can't be here but she submitted a document that I'll read into the record um um basically this is from Thursday October 3rd affordable housing meeting the hamlets residents accompany Mr Sor the resident um representative member to the meeting they were grateful to the township support thus far and put forth a request for Township action on outstanding issues related to mold Etc and some of the units the affordable housing committee is hopeful for information from the administration on the affordable housing trust funds to understand the support that can be provided to the Hamlet um the AL Alison Miller and Jen ping Wang attended an event and their takeaway was that it would be prudent for the town to take some preemptive action on creating an affordable housing plan for the next round of affordable housing before a number was thrust upon us it appears that the state might be encouraging 100% affordable housing via a tax credit scheme this might require more investigation and maybe West Winds order look into the possibility of an all affordable development dated October 15 2024 Jerry you have any comments on that push the red button oh down okay something some things are very technical sophisticated um in the fourth round the whole affordable housing uh set of regulations are going to be very different in terms of the process in terms of the standards and it probably is worthwhile and we're going to be getting into it very deeply very soon because of the time frame and it might be worthwhile having a session which is devoted at least in part to briefing particularly by Nate Dave and by me as well and Sam uh that starts to educate the board on what this is all about but it's it's and the and the public thank you uh C Curtis that's right but it is entirely different than what we've had uh in the third round so I just wanted to mention that yeah why did they pick Sunday and and th those are those are numbers that are going to be issued by DCA and we'll have a chance to respond to that Etc and I know David's been working on it thank you okay moving right along uh minutes for September 4th does anybody have um comments suggestions changes um please please uh State your um changes any anybody who's uh no changes okay I move for the approval of the September 4th minutes second all in favor say I I okay um Allan you're not you were abent obain you're abstain okay you got that Cindy yes thank you uh meeting minutes from September 4th are approved okay next up on the agenda resolution pb2 24-1 Woodmont commercial West LLC prary final major site plan phases one and two with variance relief and waivers one metal Road Jerry you want to enumerate please yeah just briefly it's uh what the agenda says Woodmont commercial it's actually Woodstone commercial thank you and this is a uh a development which was approved by the board which consists of two phases the first is a uh basically a Learning Center a child care center called a Mal Malin school which is a apparently a u uh it has more than one facility um and the second would be an office bet that's phase one it's 5,657 square feet and then phase two which would come later would be office although that could also be medical um although the proposal originally was simply for office for that space which would be 9,136 square feet during the hearing as you might recall they said they might do medical instead if they do medical instead there's going to have to be further they're going to have to come back with further um traffic information because the the uh the traffic impacts would be very different for commercial um for medical as opposed to office and that I think would have to come back before the board or at least come to the staff um and basically that's what this is all about um there's C variances uh and they are laid out um on page uh well at paragraph 26a which it does not per the ordinance does not permit an outdoor play area in the front yard and the way this is shaped the there were three front yards so the um play area would have to be in one of the front yards in fact it's behind the building but it's treated as a front yard um and that's the only variance necessary there are number waivers um Francis you want to jump in or anything anything to add Francis no no okay I I'll entertain a motion to approve resolution pb2 24-1 Woodstone commercial West Windsor move byest second by second second by the mayor um all in favor say I I thank you um if I could ask Sam a quick question Sam in paragraph three of the resolution which um I was not here for that um they talk about the Woodmont multif family development is it Woodmont or is that Woodstone also I thought it was Woodstone also yeah okay yeah so in the resolution we'll change a paragraph three Woodmont at the beginning to Woodstone thank you yeah I I already signed the resolution in the okay thank you okay uh resolution PB 24-7 Square West Windsor pet hospital conditional use approval 3512 US1 US Route one block 8 lot 10.03 uh Gary just quick summary yeah we handled this quite recently um this is an empty space at the Square West Winds shopping center uh it's in a back building um and they're going to put this Pet Hospital I was going to say sophisticated Pet Hospital Emergency Care Emergency Care um next to the Starbucks next to the Starbucks and that's that's pretty much it it's a yeah it needed conditional use approval C the conditional use approval okay thank you I'll entertain a motion to approve pb2 24-7 squat West Windsor pet hospital anybody so mov move by the mayor second second anybody second I'll second okay um P the roll on the four eligible Please Mr Lao yeah you you were there P Hospital Emergency Care next to Starbucks you were there yeah I was there you're into pets you like dogs yeah maybe in fact I remember I wasc about the pets dealing with Starbucks smells and Starbucks he was there she don't eat the Cs dogs councilman Whitfield yes mayor morat yes chairman KP yes thank you uh resolutions adopted thank you okay moving right along Next Up application pb1 19-13 amended senior living at beer Creek request for one-year extension of amended final major site plan Block 33 lot 1.02 property is Zone p r r c m l u l n a anybody want to step up yes you're on oh yeah no proof service is necessary here yeah Anthony mizuka black group Anthony I'm gonna speak and if you could raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that testimony you're about to give will be the truth so or affirmed yes this is a we been before the board and gotten this approved uh we've had some delays a lot of it due to the uh Financial issues of high interest rates and uh some changes in the the way people are looking at se the whole issue senior housing how how amendments and so forth and it's taken a a little time to figure out exactly what's going on and we think we're on the right track now we have getting our financing in place and uh hopefully this will be uh the last year that we have to deal with this we won't need any another extension we'll get this started started in construction this has been I started this project um 3 one years ago something like that huh for this project the original the original we playing we started with all this stuff right 1996 or something like that so you had just graduated you were just graduated from Junior High School I think right I had short very and I and I had a little more hair so so we we uh asked your uh appr for to give us the time necessary to get this done and we're eager to get it started we're going to start before started working on on the some of the old Bond work you know but met with a contractor day before yesterday so we gearing up so that the spring we get start all of that work media work finished and what is what is being sought here is a one-year extension of the approval through August 206 2025 so Jerry I have a question about that since the uh since it's now yet a month and a half since August 26 2024 can the board's action tonight start the clock of one year tonight yes yeah in fact you would not expect that would be the case but it is the case so it would so it would not be August 26 2025 would be October October 16th 2025 is that is that correct jry yes are you okay with that yes okay just want to make sure okay so I'll entertain a motion to approve the one-year extensions with the clock starting at tonight's date to have a motion so moved second second second by Curtis uh please call the roll on this C Mr Lao Mr chel yes Mr yes councilman Whitfield yes mayor morate yes Vice chairman hberman yes chairman carp yes motion carries thank you thank you very much you're welcome okay next up uh PB 24-10 Chick-fil-A West Windsor preliminary final major site plan bulk variants and sign waivers block seven Lot 59.0 2 3499 US Route One property Zone B-2 District ml is 101624 good evening good evening Mr chairman members of the board my name is Duncan Prime from the firm of prime toell and Meli uh on behalf of the applicant Chick-fil-A with reference to our application here this evening the property which is the subject of this application is the same property which we were here in March for it is purpose of the record located at 3499 US Route One intersection of Em's drive that is also known as block 7 lot 59.0 two on the Township tax map before I turn it over to my professional staff um I want to go through the narrative the history here uh what's transpired since you last saw us in March and you approved this substantially similar plan um for preliminary and final approval so back in 2020 as I went over with you and Mark this overall site received minor subdivision approval along with use variants and preliminary and final major site plan approval from the township zoning uh the front portion of the site now lot 59.0 one was approved to be developed with a 55 85 squ foot Wawa convenience store uh and fueling station as I think the board is aware that Wawa fueling station is constructed and now open the remaining portion of the site now Lot 59.0 2 was originally approved back then to be a hotel but we came before you in March with a different application uh as I referenced earlier we were approved for a Chick-fil-A quick service restaurant with drive-thru on that portion of the property as is the case with a lot of properties that share M multiple uses share the same property and use shared portions of the property for common use um there is a reciproc IAL easement agreement on this site Rea sometimes referred to as as part of that agreement each party has the right to review and approve any change from the original plan on the Rea that pertain to parking access drives driveway use restrictions all sorts of things following our approval back in March we received a letter dated April 30th um that Wawa had sent us I believe they copied the board as well they their objection to our approved site plan specifically the way it was laid out in our access Drive um as was their legal right to do since receipt of that letter with the past several months we took the time to work with our team with Wawa um your board professional staff to come up with an alternative plan a revised plan that we feel W satisfies the Wawa concern more importantly for us also continues uh to work for the Chick-fil-A operation so that's what brings us here tonight we've got an application for preliminary and final major site plan just like we had in March the difference is the plan the orientation is different I'd like to go over that with my civil engineer who has an exhibit to show you what you approved in March and then also what's proposed right now so with that go ahead Mr yeah I just gonna ask a couple things absolutely can you ask your professionals to focus on what the changes will be more than what we approved I'm actually out of heady on that we had substantial testimony last time uh Chick-fil-A operation I think Mr Martinez did a great job describing the history of the company right all the operational stuff none of that's going to change with this I'm going to skip that testimony unless the board would like to ask Mr Martinez a question he's here um in fact I'd like to jump right to my civil engineer who has an exhibit shows what is actually changed the the second thing sure is has has Wawa looked at your plan or what you're presenting and have they approved what your changes will be they have okay thank you yeah can we swear all your um yeah please okay if you get each raise your right hand do you swear or affirm the testimon you're about to give of be the truth so Warner affirmed if you could say your full name and spell your last name starting with this gentleman to my left I do my name is Tyler Lucas L U C thank you Patrick Downey d w NE y Daniel thank you you were just sworn while we're setting up here let's let's get you qualified Let's uh provide the for with a Brie description of your educational background good school uh I went to the New Jersey Institute of Technology I graduated with a bachelor's in civil engineering that was back in 2019 and I also received my masters from New Jersey Institute of Technology this year you're a licensed civil engineer with a license of good standing yes you oversaw the preparation of this plan yes how many chick-fil have you done similar to this since you've been working from start to finish at least four um that are constructed and beyond that probably more than 10 probably 15 or 20 that I've helped in different aspects of the design qualifications from our engineer happy about Tyler in my opening um I provided a background of why we're here while we're back here excuse me um Mr chairman just asked for a exibit shows what was appr in March and what we're showing now let's jump into that I think that's what you're showing on screen that yes so this label as exhibit A1 yep A1 off yes and it is titled site plan comparison exhibit dated 10:16 24 which is today's date all right so it sounds like the board is very familiar with the property um as Duncan had introduced it is located at on block 7 Lot 59.0 2 um so this is just to the rear of the Wawa development which had just opened um um if you look at the left plan that would be the legacy plan that was approved by this board in March um you can see that the building location has changed significantly whereas before it was pressed against the South property boundary it has now moved up closer to the side of emin's Drive um the we feel that this layout is somewhat Superior in the sense that if you were to look at the Ingress and egress between the legacy plan and the current plan those two plans the leacy plan has more of a weaving maneuver to get to the drive-thru now that is usually in is usually intentional to help um make sure that as cars line up in the Drive-Thru there's no risk of overflow onto emans now in this case the current plan pushes that drive-through instance closer into the site and extends um the length to that drive-thru it also provides a greater distance between the Ingress and the egress driveways from the waa property which generally helps as one prop vehicle tries to exit the driveway and another one tries to enter a different driveway um it will increase the distance between those two conflicting Maneuvers um and then finally you'll also notice that the drive aisle directly in front of the building which is where we would expect the most pedestrian activity has been or changed for a one-way Drive AIS therefore pedestrians only have to pay attention to One Direction of oncoming traffic so increasing safety um as we previously testified the site is located in the B2 Zone which is a neighborhood center business district um it complies and it continues to comply with a dominant portion of the zoning regulations specifically the bulk requirements for setbacks Building height floor area ratio and impervious coverage all remain compliant um we also maintain compliance with the two conditions for a fast food restaurant including the drive-thru being positioned greater than 30 feet from the property line and also that the Ingress and egress is from internal drive aisles not from the public Street I think we will move forward to the site plan rendering which will get marked as A2 yep it is dated 101624 when it opens also which I had not given out if the board is interested I do have 11 by 17s of some of the plans so if you want to get a closer look this there's eight copies so maybe three and five between the two tables so I'll dunk and hands those out um the site continues to provide full access off of emin's drive it provides full pedestrian circulation from Em's drive to the Chick-fil-A building to the Wawa building and all the way out to Route One um the Dual the drive-thru Lane has capacity for 50 vehicles um and and how does that compare to the previous plan the previous plan had space for 52 Vehicles okay and um the actual uh queuing to the order station what is that number I mean you might you might be telling me 50 is the whole capacity of the whole drive but I'm wondering about how many to the order window order station do you have a concept on them I will have to measure that out it would be it looks like here roughly half the length um I'm gonna say 25 I could get you that number and how does that compare to the previous plan um don't have that directly in front of me but I can get you that answer before the end of maybe that's a consideration on trying understand the difference between before and after especially for capacity the capacity at at at the windows I would note that the way Chick-fil-A operates that when they're under extreme loads um oftentimes the Chick-fil-A menu boards will be shut off and the orders will be fulfilled by employees who carry iPads and they can take multiple orders at once they can have two employees servicing two cars in the same Lane it and increases the flexibility from just that menu board that menu board is largely focused on a standard operation where they're not receiving a lot of Q when that queue increases it becomes a much more Dynamic operation now there was extended testimony on this pre at the previous hearing is that testimony still valid yes okay I I just want to make sure that that into the E uh entry and egress lanes that traffic waiting to order does not tumble out into those Lanes the the Ingress egress you know the at the perimeter at the site perimeter or at the drive the within the perimeter beyond beyond the order station here this you know your main Drive within the property that traffic doesn't tumble out there waiting to order no and our traffic and tolton will definitely go into more detail but 50 spaces is more than adequate for a typical Chick-fil-A operation comparison to lawrenville Chick-fil-A two other Chick-fil-A lawrenville and particular yeah yeah there's one in North Brunswick um this lville is the closest to us so I guess the capacity issue I think's question is about capacity comparison if you guys can wait till our next witness we're going to hit all these answers give us a couple minutes our traffic consultant fine fine just make sure it's addressed go ahead sorry no problem of course good question yeah so the the site continues it surfaced by a tractor trailer WB 50 those deliveries happen five times a week at least five to six times uh trash pickup happens around four to five times a week the delivery is done overnight so that overnight delivery does not impact the op operations of the store um the trash enclosure holds individual trash and recycling for individual containers for both trash and recycling the site has been reviewed by the uh Township's fire chief he's indicated that he's satisfied with the arrangement is shown so regards to parking um the prior the prior uh approval for this project the project was approved for 86 parking physical par parking stalls six of those were land banged but with including the Township's EV credit which gives you a Ono one credit for each EV space proposed there's really 88 stalls proposed the current plan proposes 82 physical spaces um those no I'm sorry 79 physical spaces there are three EV parking stalls therefore with a one to one credit you end up with 82 spaces proposed so we've reduced effectively reduced the proposed parking by six spaces why that's relevant is because the township has an ordinance for a waiver where if you exceed the number of required parking stalls you need a waiver um so we are over by 28 parking stalls out of those 28 parking SS 13 of those are shared with Wawa and then if you were to reduce them by the EV credit again you end up with 66 parking stalls proposed that are actually physical spaces and dedicated to Chick-fil-A Chick-fil-A operations typically rely around 60 on around 65 parking spaces so we are right on The Mark with the parking that we think is warranted for this development also include the EV parking stalls um sometimes you may hear that they come EV ready ours will not be EV ready they will be installed with electric chargers at the time of construction at the time of what could you say that again at this with the construction of the building the EV Chargers will also get installed than um the impervious coverage for the proposed project remains unchanged at 37.7% um we worked with your professionals and they had it they expressed that they would like to see a thicker buffer along um em and's drive we did go in added to the buffer and increase added a burm that would help Shield the drive-through operations along that Frontage um so in your illustration of the buffer and you show the trees along that buffer correct yes I can okay how long will take that that level of growth to happen to those trees in the illustration that you provided the I mean are they really going to be planted as big specimens there no no so how so I'm looking at the picture on the screen now this purpose of the record what are we looking at the this is exhibit A3 it will be perspective it'll be emen Drive perspective one so how many years are we seeing of the tree growth that we're now looking at in the illustration how long will it take uh growth is typically around 12 Ines per year um what kind of trees are they these are the ones you're looking at directly on the Frontage of Em's Drive they are green Giants no Cyprus so only I know they're blood good London plain tree platinus I'm not even going to try to do the Latin name that's fine they have a mature height of 60 feet um and the install height will be 16 up to 16 feet 14 to 16 feet the install height would be 14 to 16 is it on of burm no that is the height of the tree it is uh three to three and a half inches I mean the reason I bring this up is that on day one on opening day of Chick-fil-A and West Windsor it's not GNA look like that 16 feet but but that level but that level of of of growth and foliage not ex to be that but that's I'm saying that I I want truth in the uh truth in advertising in a sense of what I'm looking at this is a rendering do want to show what being proposed what that EV will look like So eventually hope in our life okay it's on the record that eventually the 16 foot trees are gonna look like that g grow hopefully a point of year right you don't want to trees that are too they die absolutely M swi guys yeah let's s you want to swear if you could raise your right hand do swear or affirm the testimony about to give it be the truth so one or affirmed raise your right hand do you swear affirm that testimony give be the truth thank you okay U please seat thank you I'm going to pull up the building elevations and comparison to the Wawa next to us this will be a four it is Chick-fil-A Wawa color elevation comparison and it is dated 12324 this one as you can tell by the the date completely unchanged from the prior application uh you can see that and now you've seen it in person the beige color scheme of both buildings the red signage that these are relatively compatible color schemes I'm sorry I just have a quick question on the other PL no problem at the trash compact I'm sorry the trash area um okay why is there an opening uh in the island I would assume that there would be going the trash truck would be going straight in and what's that opening for into the drive-thru Lanes not open to the drive-thru is actually an escape Lane for the drive-thru um you could imagine this is a pretty long length so we usually will provide an escape Lane so that if a car changes their mind decides that they want to go to waa and not go to Chick-fil-A they can exit the drive-thru so that would really be well we convenient for the lane that's closest to it obviously are you going to sign that as such yes we can we'll sign it with do not enter signs on the on the side with the trash enclosure okay but you'll have a sign indicating that they can enter from the dra Rel yes yes well I'm sorry a sign indicating what that they can enter that that it essentially it's an Escape Route for says fire lane on it though I I think the the Escape aspect of it is is relative like it's apparent I think they do not ENT sign on the one side will prevent any entres on the opposite direction however going that trying to figure it out yeah right you I don't think you want them using it the unless it's really recent to get out of there yeah well that's what I'm saying right figure it out okay okay thank you of course okay so um remaining with the landscaping and aesthtics um we've worked with the township professionals to specify a decorative sidewalk around the building and also around the uh coming from the Wawa property matching the same sidewalk that the Wawa property used um the only areas that are not that decorative P would be uh that de decorative sidewalk are the areas where the team members use um and the sidewalk along the drive-thru um the reason I mentioned the sidewalks the township has a waiver requirement you must specify permeable uh side for all materials that aren't intended to be used by a motor vehicle a permeable surface we think the the Aesthetics partially out providing the permeable sidewalk also and we have added 60 first pavement parket so those 60 stalls exceed the amount of area that would have been provided from the sidewalk so those and they also have an added component they provide water quality treatment in motor vehicle surface areas so they will help filter out some contaminants before they would end up in the um wooded areas which wouldn't be provided with the sidewalks um one comment from the Landscape Architects letter did request I'm going to pull up another perspective A5 em and same exhibit page two um so in this perspective you can see that there's a split rail fence that runs along the west property not the West property line but the West edge of our development area on the property that split rail fence does not show a mesh that lack of mesh is intentional um the D requires that you use an open split rail fence in areas of adjacent to Wetlands um so that open rail fence allows animals to Traverse through the fence and not be impeded by the mesh so we are going to ask that we keep it as is without the mesh specified typically our site would our our office does use mesh um to prevent people from climbing through the rails but we did this to maintain the D requirements um the the lighting largely remains unchanged um it will be 25 foot poles there will be a dark bronze color similar to the building I mean similar to the meal delivery canopy the order canopy the parit Caps um so it'll be a cohesive design perimeter lighting is all forward throw there's house side shields on all the perimeter lighting to limit glare that might shine onto the approaching Road go ahead 25 22 you the for the concrete 25 ft High the the concrete foundation still you're using old 25 ft High F also and and you scri you are saying you are having the 3 ft High Complete because may not impact the pole so why you using Old Poles now with no using a 6 inch Foundation exposure it's only six inches off of the it's buried deeper go ahead oh it is actually 22 feet tall poles mounted above a 6 in f 25 from the I I mean I the lighting plan is ES1 ES1 es2 the ES1 or es2 in the back there's a for those of you looking at the plan there's a foundation detail provided on ES1 I can pull it up actually for the rest let me let me pull it up foundations large drawing files are not our friend same you're using I'm sorry application this one yeah that's the Market Fair lighting yeah it's not us okay all right so Duncan I I have a question about wayfinding should I save that for traffic or or sa okay y um then I'll ask my other question of a more General nature uh Travelers I've noticed in all the years I've lived in central New Jersey that uh Travelers especially in the summertime um along uh US Route One the volume increases with every toll hike upon the turnpike so a southbound traveler would leave at uh uh exit 9 New Brunswick come down highway one to connect to 295 to go south into Pennsylvania and Delaware and Maryland okay having said that um this is the only right now the only Wawa between new on the southbound side between New Brunswick and 295 and this is the and this Chick-fil-A would be the second Chick-fil-A on the southbound side yet there is one in North Brunswick also on the southbound side so my question is for travelers coming through um that decide that they do want to stop do a rest stop at this location some of the Travelers in the vehicle might want to go to the Wawa some might want to go to the Chick-fil-A can you talk about pedestrian connectivity between the Chick-fil-A and the WWA NOP so that it's safe for what I've just described yep no problem so you can see my mouse pointer um there are two connection points between the waa property and the Chick-fil-A property via sidewalk there is the sidewalk that if you've been to the wua you may have noticed that tucked along the backs side they have a paved um sidewalk that connects to that we will then pick up and Connect into that connection ties both to the Chick-fil-A and actually the shopping center to our South had an old sidewalk connection um so that sidewalk continues up along the drive-thru near the me meal ordering canopy along the 13 shared parking spaces it then meets another another sidewalk that stems out to the Wawa property where you could then cross the um meal ordering canopy and walk into the store so there's signage crosswalks and sidewalks connecting between um both Chick-fil-A and Wawa there's also internal sidewalks on the Chick-fil-A side that connect to most of the parking spaces and associated crosswalks my gut my gut feeling uh uh Lucas Tyler is that that that upper beyond the ordered canopy that the shortest line between the two buildings is where I would think there would be more pedestrian activity between the upper if on the north side of the Wawa building and the south side of the Chick-fil-A building you know that where yep right between the fueling canopy yet yet I sort of I and near to the gas canopies of the Wawa so I'm just wondering if if there's good connectivity there that can be worked with uh the Wawa on we do propose a sidewalk uh if I zoom in if you look under the shading of this tree we can see a sidewalk connection yeah I'm thinking more on the waah wa side that's just pavement without consideration of that but I hopefully I hope you guys can work that out that's enough on that while you're over there can I ask a question about 13 shared parking spaces yes they're shared between Chick-fil-A and Wawa right yes but I don't see how if you're in the Chick-fil-A property how do you par there like I don't see how a car new it is it is I would say it is are you referring to it being segregated by the drive-thru you have um the drive-thru right um like it's hard for me to see this right and then there's a crosswalk and then there's parking spaces now I could see how you get there from Wawa you traversing and then you just pull in but I don't see so doesn't exist so we do we are working on a cross access um for the parking so there is the access to those parking stalls for Chick-fil-A will be done through the Wawa Drive aisle and there will be an agreement in place um so that that so that the Chick-fil-A customer can use that driveway okay so if I understand correctly let's say you're in the Chick-fil-A um property and all the spots are taken except for those 13 you're coming down through you have to enter the Wawa station so then you can maneuver in and pull in to one of those 13 so you're talking about show the path so there's there's I guess a myriad of ways of getting there but um the first option if you were coming from emans would be to pull well from an access standpoint let's you would pull in through the Chick-fil-A let's say there's there's a lot of parking but let's say we say they were all full yes it's busy day you would travel you would travel South along the drive aisle you would hook left y so far I got you yeah you would then enter the Wawa parking lot way to then go and left turn so so then to your statement is that there going to be an agreement in place that waa is going to let you do that yes because I thought Wawa did not want you using their property to maneuver in it's part of the agreement part of the agreement so that's going to be a condition of approval Jer I guess yes would have to be okay that's fine okay but once you parked in the 13 spaces how do you get to the Chick-fil-A do you go down the I know no I see that but you walk in the drive drive for w sidewalk oh there's the sidewalk okay thank behind the yeah you walk along the sidewalk and then you cross over okay I got it thank you I guess one other Allied uh access issue is uh uh there's no issue with Windsor green that you have an extension of the sidewalk going right up to the property we aren't proposing any improvements on their lot the alternative you have you have I see you have a sidewalk that sort of dead ends right at Windsor Green's property you see what I'm saying below yes you're referring to yeah show it show it off I think maybe the uh this will be a better representation that's that little little little connection there yeah that's an existing connection we are we are proposing a black Pap you see like that black Pap pattern you see there would be us but that sidewalk on the other side if you zoom in closer you will see sorry it's how I yeah that little that little vertical right that's where I cut through for basically you're not proposing anything on Windsor green property correct into what what is there grass woods now it's like a little um it's like a little strip of grass dirt there yeah that's what I saw yeah cut through there when I went to the W yeah I mean seriously I could see because of the high level of use at Windsor green I could see somebody parking on the Windsor GRE side to go to either the Wawa or the Chick-fil-A you know just walking onto the just following the crosswalk patterns and using it I mean it might wizard green might not like that but it'll happen in real life notos that you course you're notos definely I mean anything's possible I mean it could happen okay um before we get too far on the lighting is there any other questions no um before we get too far on the lighting there are two waivers Associated to the lighting um the first waiver is the ordinance permits a maximum average of 05 foot candles um in the parking lots where we currently propose 1.6 as the average previously 1.9 foot candles was approved so we have improved from the prior approval but um T typically Chick-fil-A likes to remain between one and two foot candles in the parking lot just given the amount of pedestrians that are there um to increase safety and then the second waiver is for the exceedence of one foot candle at the property line um where 3.3 foot candles is proposed at the curb cut I'm going to give you guys a plan I guess so you can see this oh this is the one that wasn't cooperating that now looks like it is you're showing the site plan set which is previously submitted unchanged corre correct unchanged this is the exact copy that was submitted to the board um in this area you will see that there's a 3.3 foot CLE marker um that is only at this axis driveway it increases safety there's going to be pedestrians using that crosswalk um that is the only location where we exceed the requirement and actually um in Mr guzik's letter he acknowledges that he agrees that this is a safer application and and and Tyler could you go back over the parking lot what what is the uh ordinance standard and what are you proposing so the ordinance standard is one foot candle at property lines there is a 3.3 foot candle proposed okay and then the the first one if you missed that um the maximum average in the parking lots 0.5 and we are proposing 1.6 do the lights go off a certain hour yes they would go off one hour after closing so around 11 pm. so Chick-fil-A closes at 10 it goes off at 11 Yes except for security lighting except for security Li yes I'm going to move to signage can we talk about lighting of the flag pole is that a separate um the flag is what 50 feet tall or something yes 50 feet tall and how's that going to be lit that's a great question I think sorry from so a spotlight on the roof is going to hit the flag that's correct okay um is that what that was what was approved with our prior oh it was it's the same flag pole too I remember I don't remember a light from the roof spotlighting the I thought it was lights coming up I thought it was yes I thought it was going to be up light that's what I thought too people were concerned about lighting from the roof right and we did approve a 50 foot did we approve 50 foot height we approved the height of 50 right yeah yeah right yeah my concern with on the roof is when the flags not blowing let's say there's no wind that light's going to be shining hundreds of feet away into someone's window and that was an exact point did the list I don't remember that exact point but that's what I'm thinking now our testimony in March and continues to be that it's less impactful from the roof at that height than to come from the the ground yeah but think about it you have a spotlight on the roof shining at of flag that's 50 feet up in the air the flag is limp because there's no wind and I don't know how powerful this Spotlight is going to be but it's going to pass on both sides of the flag pole and it's going to be hitting someone's window hundreds of yards away it's going to spread out yes it spread okay well that's helpful but still I don't remember it's it's done like this just about all blades your cous You' seen elsewhere it's not something we're proposing just here it's I understand can can put a light on top of the flag pole 60 you wouldn't be able to orient the light to hit the flag in the pole Tyler could you bring up the uh the site plan and indicate the flag full location sure on the site plan exhibit if you look near the entrance to em and's drive there is a landscape Drive side okay right okay but you're proposing that the spotlight the roof so it would be in the last corner spotl is hidden behind the parit behind well yeah but it's going up and it's really it's facing wood M you that direction that direction in that direction what's the angle of the roof to the flag P the flag is 50 feet how tall is the and the light on the roof is how many feet the roof height is 20 TW less than 22 feet high and the flag pole is top of the light I'm just trying to the light will be just go over my geometry from by all means tell me what angle that creates it looks like it's it's it looks like it's um something above it's maybe 120 I don't know may it may just go up into the air and not hit any it's not going to hit any houses or it's not going to hit any depend on the intensity of the light yeah and the spread I don't know any of that information and about a laser can we get a laser there well that would probably be really glare you got that well we can do that obviously it's inconsistent with what the board decided previously doesn't matter this is g to be what's going to be this is application yeah I would say that the uh as the light will be behind the parit so the glare will be largely blocked there are an an very established Woodland to the west of our development and that the it's facing upward the Woodmont development is several hundred feet away I can definitely get you that number but um that would be a pretty impressive light roughly 120 degree angle or maybe even more and it's facing upward um um it's got to go through a cell tower on the A1 limo site and then it'll go over to clubhouse for the country club that okay it won't interfere with Frontier Airlines I don't think it should that's how we win a flight plan I think I think the reasonable thing is as was proposed that if there are complaints we don't want to be bad neighbors if that's we don't expect that to be the case but if it is we would certainly look at you'll look at solution you work at professionals look for Solutions question okay that's fine for me okay we'll move on to signage um the development there's two freestanding signs um there were previously twoing signs they were approved um the first sign is within the Wawa panel sign you will see that there is currently a white Fillin slot waiting for um a new sign to go in so it'll be right below the arches of the gas station I have a better exhibit want to make sure you understand that this is from the site plan this is a construction detail this is the plan that was shared with the board um the area of that sign is 48 square feet the second freestanding sign will be the monument sign uh the monument sign will be near the emans driveway um that sign is 8 feet tall also 48 square feet in area um the lower two will be uh brick fascia um they're also included a message board that was also approved um so the we do need two waivers for the freestanding sign one there's only one freestanding sign permitted um whereas we propos two and the although only one of them is on our site on the and then the uh the second is for height where we propose eight feet and there's only 4T permitted we think that the inclusion of a landscaped berm along 's Drive um it has also it's only been more important that we get the extra height on that sign to make sure that visitors know where the entrance driveway will be there's testimony at the hearing in March excuse me about the message board that it wouldn't be used for pricing specials it was more Community type messaging application correct um next is building signage there are a total of four building mounted signs um there are three types two of them one faces Em's drive one faces Route One and the Wawa property one facing the internal parking lot positioned over the door and one welcome sign next to the door we are seeking a waiver for four building mounted signs whereas only one is permitted now the reason for those signs the door the script sign that is mounted over the door which you can see here using the chickf script um that one to help customers Orient to the front door and where they would Place their order inside the building the Wawa fa the Wawa facing sign assist drivers approaching along emans which as I mentioned the monument sign gets partially blocked by that landscape buffer and the a as an indicator from and the approaching driveway um the welcome sign those two are both the script signs the welcome sign you can see here it gets positioned next to the entry door it gets positioned above a bench it becomes more of a backdrop for photos and social media posts it mentions West Windsor Township um so we just think that one's a nice benefit and that particular sign welcome friends and neighbors is not illuminated correct not illuminated logo um that will be facing Emmons um that thine we propose a monument sign along emans the issue with a monument sign is you can only see it from the roadway it does not provide good visual appeal from perpendicular where we have and office complex as optim also whereas previously we were approved for three building mounted signs the that was a a result of the orientation of the building so if I to go back to the comp parison exhibit when when the building was along the South property line the building sign mounted over the entry door faced both emans and the parking lot so was serving two two missions now that the building has been flipped that building sign over the door can no longer serve em and's drive so now the Chick-fil-A logo would be filling that void oh this is actually a good representation um so our waivers on these signs there's a Max total square footage square feet of building sign of 50 square feet whereas we are proposed 179.1 Square ft the max the max letter height permitted is 18 in um the proposed maximum letter height largely stemming from that Chick-fil-A C logo is 60 in and then the additional and then one final waiver um is for wave finding signage the maximum permitted size for wave finding signage is two square feet we propose three square feet these are monochromatic signs they just help Orient the driver to get into the drive-thru so increasing safety and then just some housekeeping items um is this the scal picture this exact picture may not be to scale I I do have assuming they included a scale I do have the original elevations actually I have't on board too you like me to measure yeah do you have do you have the picture of to scale or no to a scale that can be measured or just in scale with the building size this is to scale with a building okay let me see this is the same exhibit this exhibit has several perspective views this might help you Orient yourself this would be the entrance over the building entrance so that is the first script sign here you can see both signs this is also the sign facing the WWA canopy scale saying okay okay and and how big is the letters here you you said the tallest letter is 60 inches but that is the C in the Chick-fil-A logo very similar yes the two script signs were previously approved build build got it other build okay thank you that makes sense yeah and then just like I said a few housekeeping items the um site previously received D approval for our legacy plan um we have reapplied to the D um we've reduced our impacts to the transition area so we feel that we will we're confident we will receive another approval um we have resubmitted to the SD for this new layout we've also resubmitted to the drcc they have reviewed it they gave us the comments mostly just clarifications didn't require much Plan redesign uh or really any and then the uh and then we all also agree to contact the seid authority pending approval um to release the excess sanitary flow which was ased by the board engineer because the hotel obviously had a larger demand than our development and then the only uh other item also from the engineer's letter we are going to conservatively request a waiver um if you on page seven of the engineers's letter numbered 601b in set 2 letter I um there's a comment regarding the gutter flow in front of the property being less than 75% we are not proposing any grade changes within the right of way that is an existing condition um we would request that waiver be granted we are not aware of any issues with present drainage the Wawa seems to have been operating they would have also comp complain if there was ponded conditions um so we would like a we're requesting a waiver but we will work with your engineer to find the best solution for that we propose uh 0.4% in the gutter which is a current condition sorry it's an existing condition in front of our driveway um I can give you the location so you get the board gets a better perspective if I pull up this it would be that condition regarding the drainage okay um sure so I will pull up a loading exhibit this will be a new exhibit this is title WB 50 delivery truck circulation exhibit it's dated 62824 yep so this shows a WB 50 tractor trailer entering from Route One South onto em and dri turning left into the the trer would position I we'll show with my mouse cursor the trailer positions in the drive aisle they unload through the service door and then would leave out through route one as I said previously there's drop key delivery it happens overnight there are no C there would be no customers um at least inside the store at this time and it wouldn't impact the day-to-day active operations of the store no there was no loading zone previously there remains with the comments yes happy to obviously answer any questions because have um nothing right now um sure up next person I have two more witnesses next one is our traffic engineer here okay Downey what exhibit do you want P you were previously sworn I believe let's get you qualified um you did first witness your Professional Licensing any educational background yes sir um I have a Bachelor of Science degree in civil engineering from row University licensed professional engineer uh in New Jersey and Pennsylvania previously testified before this board and other land use boards throughout New Jersey uh prepare the traffic study for this particular project okay your license is current still yes sir thank you um let's go through uh traffic especially compared to what we've testified to in March um and also you heard some questions from the board up we we defer to you try to answer those as well y absolutely uh I guess I'll start outward and work my way in uh starting with site access as you heard before uh there was previously one direct access to evans's drive there remains one access but its location has shifted uh it's now at the West End of the site we think it's a better layout it properly lines up with the on-site Drive aisles instead of having a back-to-back curve as the previous layout did uh it encourages drive-thru exiting vehicles to exit directly to Em's Drive whereas uh the previous layout would have encouraged them uh to go through the Wawa site to exit to Route One uh and it positions the entrance to the drivethru a little bit further interior to the site uh as I'll get to in a moment there's more than adequate drive-through stacking provided here but uh in a worst case scenario it does provide that entrance even interior to the site for additional overflow uh we did submit a traffic study as part of the application the overall findings are virtually identical to the prior application with the prior simply because it's the same building same use same piece of property uh very similar access configuration the report was prepared in accordance with New Jersey Dot's methodology uh in terms of collecting of existing traffic data projecting of traffic for this particular use interaction with Wawa and how to analyze intersections uh i' like ask question on that sure matter with uh traffic studies with egress from the site egress from the site um how in on a traffic study the for a retail use like this how do you account for where the customers are coming from or going to once they leave the site let me give you an example on this for most almost all of West Windsor there really are no residential uh uses south of the site when a West Windsor resident coming to the Chick-fil-A going home afterwards there I would guess that the majority of those uh persons would make the left turn onto emin's drive to filter back into West Windsor Township by Canal point or Meadow Road so in egress traffic how do you account for that Dynamic great question uh it's a twofold so there are two types of trips uh for a commercial use there are primary trips and passby trips a primary trip uh is where going to this location is the primary purpose of your trip so I'm home I want Chick-fil-A I go to the Chick-fil-A and then I return home a passby trip uh is you're already on the road you just pop in and continue on your way uh from work to home for example for primary trips so it's as you stated very based on residential population and location and location it's based on what's called a gravity model uh it's a DOT methodology uh adopted from you know higher order traffic engineering standards where the distribution of traffic is proportional to uh population density and population location based upon uh the latest US Census Data so we actually have uh Census Data pulled to see where the residential populations are in proximity to the site and the distribution is based on that information so to your prior point there are a significant amount of the primary trips the the residential base trips that make the left out of the site uh to head back to the north right they might not enter the site that way correct most of might come down Highway One y we look at it enter and exiting exiting to go back into the rest of West wior Township they would probably want to go onto emmans to get the canal point to get to the rest of the township yes correct what if you estimate the pass by traffic percentage uh the do accepted rates which are based on the in to Transportation Engineers um we study three distinct peak hours in a typical week uh during the weekday morning it's 49% weekday PM is 50% and Saturday midday is 37% correct that's specific to particularly uh the type of use for a different type of use be different use like that's why very high because if you're going to work on your way you drop stop and get a breakfast and work same way on your way back home well what what's interesting on that quasi is my guess is I gut feeling gut feeling not not any empirical evidence but my guess is that uh a Northbound most a a Northbound driver really has to be motivated to go to make the the uh in effect Jug Handle U-turn over Meadow Drive meadow meadow road to come back on southbound one to get to to these locations the Wawa and and the Chick-fil-A you really have to be motivated to to go make the loop to come back down on southbound one to go to this use correct yeah that's one of your 51% because the other 49 would not do it because 49 is on your way you pick up and leave okay is that your feeling on that too yes um mathematically that's accounted for in there uh as I mentioned it's based on where the population is and how far it is from the site it's further to get to our site the actual travel distance is further from Northbound uh so it it accounts for exactly that um so overall uh conclusion of the traffic study remains as it was before that all the do's uh level of service and delay criteria are satified uh there's no significant traffic impacts to the Json roadways from the project moving interior to the site the actual site design we'll start with the drive-thru um as you heard uh at the the last meeting again today it's a dual drive-through throughout it's uh Chick-fil-A's preferred layout for new stores it's the most efficient it works people through the system the fastest the stacking capacity uh is significant to give some perspective uh we have counts at uh 17 other New Jersey Chick-fil-A to see what the peak cues are at those locations the average queue among those stores is 27 Vehicles this is designed to accommodate 50 uh and that's just with within the formal concrete drive-thru area that you see not accounting for additional overflow uh in aisles within the site if absolutely necessary but we don't expect it to get there under typical conditions um in terms of a comparison to the lawrenville store I heard that mention before um there's really two key differences between that store and this one in that one uh there's uh two lanes at the ordering point they actually have to merge to one because it's a tight site and they open up back to two for meal fulfillment so it's good has the two at the ordering and fulfillment but that little bottleneck in the middle makes it less efficient than when this would be and in terms of the physical size that can stack approximately 32 Vehicles whereas again this can stack 50 so it's over 50% greater uh stacking capacity uh moving on to the parking as you heard before um we uh provide additional parking spaces um we gave a lot of testimony at the last meeting about why that is uh Chick-fil-A's projected demand is a little bit higher than what's uh contemplated with the ordinance rate however uh we did reduce it from the prior plan to something more in conformance uh with the maximum standard from the ordinance overall reduction of six spaces accounting for the EV credits in both the the prior and current proposal conditions uh the dimensions onsite Drive aisles parking spaces remain compliant uh loading space you heard before there's no loading space proposed that's one relief that was previously granted and remains because uh of when the tractor trailer is timed off off operating hours uh so overall it it was and remains our professional opinion that this site is designed to provide safe and efficient access to the site doesn't result in a substantial traffic Imp in roadways and interior uh is designed to accommodate drive-through parking Etc as appropriate for this use compare this to the yeah so that's what I was going into before the Lawrence uh Chick-fil-A can stack 32 vehicles and this can stack 50 so this is significantly larger and its design is more efficient from all the to the the pick up the order right that's correct and you said the average in New Jersey was 20 27 vehicles uh I don't have count the Lawrence one but Place uh that one had 34 when we observed it a so would be handily accommodated with this design this building is the same size as lawence or uh I'm not I'm not sure what the size is at the moment to me it looks like the same size as Edison I don't know if the Chick-fil-A guys here but the Edison location which is relatively new so I'll ask my wayf finding question now um yes so uh take the scenario walk me through it I've enter I'm entering the Chick-fil-A coming Southbound on Highway One passing the Wawa at the bottom of your site plan and entering at that drive can you tell me about wayfinding signs to get me to the drive Lanes sure and illustrate if possible so uh Route One southbound you you really have two options uh let's say you turn in advance of the wah onto em and's drive and I'm my particular question is from the Wawa oh from from the Wawa you're in the parking lot sure uh so um you come West down this bottom Southern aisle there's a way finding sign roughly in this location saying for the drive-thru head straight you come around the turn the drivethru is right there but there's also a sign saying turn right for the drive-thru and then you would better thank you yes questions for our traffic engineer yeah go Ahad this question think might stand the past five trips percent of those people actually um I know with mobile order picking up overall we're at roughly 50% drive-thru at the moment um as far as how the primary and passby trips compare in that regard I might speculate that it's a bit higher but I I don't you know I can't say for certain I would as well is the is the percentage of drive-thru pretty much constant in all stores or it depends on location it definitely varies with location um and regionally kind of like what that region um you know prefers in terms of that particular population um you know I think pass by trips drive-through operations a good chunk of the expected operation here simply because it's proximity to Route One it's a lot of commuting public yeah I do have a question I see a second canopy along the Eastern Edge on the D yes right there is that an order too that is the ordering canopy as opposed to the meal fulfillment canopy so under that is where orders are being taken uh it's where the team members stand uh to take their orders so the team members will be standing over there and in addition to next to the yes next to the correct rest as well yep okay how many do you think from all the way up to the curve rest yeah so from the ordering canopy to the entrance yes yeah I don't have I can't scale it off what I was looking at before it is roughly in the middle so I will say it's in you know the 25 plus or minus range and that's it's fairly comparable to where it was uh on the prior application about halfway through that drive-through stack it's the average processing time for any meal meal order you know that um it's not something we've counted I've heard it's between four and five minutes from placing the order to getting the food there's obviously a little waiting before placing the order too so okay in the range of four to five minutes yeah from from ordering to picking up yes any any down okay professional we do have some w reest your professional experience ucal backround yes uh again Daniel block uh with colge engineering and design licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey certified by the American Institute of certified planners is your mic on yeah um testify before this board previously and actually served do the board planner for this board for for a time okay thank you okay um as was mentioned before we don't have any variance relief required for this application we are compliant with the bulk requirements we do have a number of design waivers or uh exceptions uh to the site plan requirements um all of these were previously granted there are some minor changes so I'll just quickly go through what those changes are and um previously we were granted a waiver for a loading birth where required one loading birth none are proposed that's not changed um we did have a waiver for the excessive number of parking stalls under the prior plan we had excuse me 17 Extra Spaces with this new configuration we have 25 Extra Spaces is none of those are being land banked on this plan so they're all going to be constructed uh three of those are going to be EV charging stalls so we have a total of 79 spaces proposed now um the lighting we had a waiver for the intensity of lighting um previously we were at 1.9 foot candles in certain locations now we're at 1.6 so we did reduce that a little bit with the new plan uh 0.5 is to Max permitted or that's the average that we're supposed to have so we have 1.9 on the old plan 1.6 on the new plan um the average intensity at the property line is supposed to be one foot candle we were previously given a waiver for 3.1 with the new plan we're at 3.3 very similar not not much change the number of wall signs you heard testimony before from the engineer on the number of wall signs so we're permitted one we previously granted two of the chick bla script signs now we're asking for one additional logo sign above the the drive-thru canopy and one additional wall sign the welcome sign it's not really an identification sign just an extra wall sign um and then along with that because of the uh the total square footage of those signs is increased we're now going from 117 squ feet up to 179.50 total square footage of those four wall signs so we need a a waiver for that previously we had a waiver for the maximum lettering height of those wall signs that was um allowed 18 inches we're proposing 60 inches for those Chick-fil-A script signs that's not changing so we a question on that really quick the 60 inches again is the C what the little uh design on top of the C right correct the chicken what are what's the height of the other letters it's like half right it's about half of that yeah so 30 inches I don't have an exact number for you but it it it's about half I would say around 30 inches we could get that for you for the record no I'm just secure it okay yeah and so it's 18 is the ordinance and other than the see the other letters are about 30 yes okay thank you thank you um the monument sign is uh proposed to be okay we're proposing two Monument signs really one on this property one on the Wawa property because we're sharing a sign with them so we has wa agreed to that I'm sorry WWA has agreed to that right yes okay that's going to be a condition though right we don't want to approve it then W you know comes back and says no you understand that we understand what happened in March we take responsibility we sure that is condition is that the monument sign that we're approving will be allowed by W on Wawa's proper okay thank you right and then along with that the monument sign the size of the monument sign we were previously granted a a height of 8T where 4 feet is allowed we're asking for that same relief again uh it's the same sign as as previously approved and while was agreed to an 8 foot Monument sign okay thank you thank you um a previous testimony was for the uh instructional signage the ordinance allows for two square feet we're asking for three square feet and that's the signage that directs uh the vehicles into the driver through and into the parking areas um we think it's important to have that a little bit larger so you really can see it and read it for wayf finding but but that's not a change correct that is not changed um that's it the other the other waivers are all the same nothing else changed on the site for the other ones so again for the same reasons as you know we testified in March um I believe that these waivers can be granted um that the uh literal enforcement would be impracticable within the intent of the ordinance or exact undue hardship uh I believe all of these are reasonable requests for these waivers or or uh exceptions right okay anybody have any issues with signage okay thank you Daniel I'd say uh from your your variance waiver request list that you as part of the materials did you tonight say anything different than what what was on here no that's that's the current list yes that's what I was testifying to okay thank you that concludes our direct testimony be happy to answer any questions from your board or your staff the public when it's their yeah okay um so we're gonna hear from our professionals now okay before we Dave before you start I just want to read um into the record Chief Lynch's memo just so get because I always forget so um Chiefs Lynch's memo data September 25th 2024 regarding pb2 24-10 Chick-fil-A his overview is that the applicants proposing instruction 5600 foot Chick-fil-A drive-through restaurant Associated site improvements he says his access to the site for emergency vehicles is adequate the water supply for fire protection is adequately proposed and he concludes I do not have any comments or concerns regarding this proposal so let that be known for the record that Chief Lynch is approved okay David you're up okay good evening everybody David Novak still for the record uh with burches Associates fasha planning consultant we had a memo dated October 7th 2024 uh I'll be very brief uh I concur with the applicants planner assessment there are no variances required for this application the waivers that they recapped are uh still true and accurate several of those waivers were previously granted the biggest change to waivers have to deal with the number of parking spaces uh lighting which I'll always defer to frano because I can never figure out how to hit the nail on the head with the lighting anyway and with signage um you know the only sign that I had originally questions was the sign on the Southeast beside of the building that's facing the Wawa because that is above more of a service entry um the applic did explain that that is really for visibility from the Wawa site as well as from emin's Drive um on a anecdotal note I think it does add a splash of color to that wall so not I'm not necessarily opposed to it um in terms of the overall layout I actually prefer this layout compared to the one that was previously approved the applicant did provide some information and some testimony about why this layout is a little bit better than the last one the other one that I would add is that while the drive-through aisle will be closer to edon's drive I think the location of the building blocks the majority of the parking area as well as the remainder of the drive through aisle as well so I think in terms of site design this provides a more linear vehic ular pedestrian I'm sorry vehicular pattern also I think aesthetically will provide some additional benefits for buffering the parking lot otherwise uh I really have no additional questions or comments I believe they addressed all the items that were in our memo um I do have to cover Mr snes's memo as well after this but if the board has any questions regarding the planning or zoning analysis uh obviously I'd be happy to entertain those I'm not exactly sure where you are in the sign facing the wild I'm okay with it okay yes I made my piece with it okay thank you any questions for David okay friend you're up good evening Francis gzi Township engineer prepared a report of October 8th and uh as you heard mostly in Tyler's test testimony um most of the issues have been discussed uh I take no exception to what I've heard tonight especially with them agreeing to address any conditions or comments not specifically commented on tonight um going through the report itself I don't believe that there are any issues requiring additional testimony I know one comment uh 104 about the dot access permit uh coincidentally as I was heading up tonight I found a package for me from Colliers which was a copy of the resubmission to do so they are into do for the new access permit for this current application uh so that that's information for the boards um boards use um other thing tonight was the additional waiver on page seven regarding the gutter flow on emons uh I concur that I'm not aware of any existing drainage or icing problems so I don't have a problem or take exception to them requesting a waiver from that ordinance section uh I would note though that um if any problems do develop as a result of their construction and using that as a construction access they would be required to repair any such damage that does cause or create a drainage problem in that area with that understood accepted yes okay got that Jerry okay uh I just want to go back to uh the Landscaping uh oh yeah I didn't even get a chance to see that one sorry I didn't get a chance to talk about his demo yet oh I'm sorry you're not going to talk about it oh no I'm going to I just didn't get the opportunity yet David needs a break to switch from planning hat to landscape hat thr foot too for so that's really all I I had to discuss unless the board has a specific question for me no Dave you want to just land yes absolutely I I'm also playing landscape architect tonight at snikes apologizes he is sick uh hopefully he didn't get me sick from Monday say he had a memo dated October 8th 2024 uh the applicant did address the split rail fence design and we understand that that is a njde requirement so obviously our uh request will not supersede njde uh regarding the drive-thru area relocation treatment I discussed with Mr snikers earlier today essentially what his request is along Em's Drive the appan did a good job of providing a landscape buffer there a nonlinear kind of curvature more interesting design his request though was to provide some sort of in escaping between those curves if that makes sense so you see to the left and to the right of that larger curve of landscaping um just something some additional shrubs in that area just to block off of views I'm sorry UB yes additional evergreen shrubs yeah that yeah makes the condition to work with your landscape AR we can do that absolutely yeah and it doesn't necessarily need to be connected to that it just be a separate island in the middle obviously just any type of flexibility there but just to fill in those patches uh the other David wait could you describe that in a little more detail because from what you were describing and I could hardly see these um I'm not exactly sure where that is okay so along Em's drive you see the uh landscape buffer that consists of the shrub planings uh those are broken up into two main curves as well as some shrubs oh yes next to the sidewalk well Mr and you see how there's patches of lawn area between the proposed shrubs he's asking just for additional Landscaping of shrubs evergreen shrubs within those gaps to fill in the blank spaces there okay great thank you between the large trees David or between no more between the uh more between the shrub Islands I would call them got it here here yes it WR description oh okay good yes yeah additional landscape uh Landscaping between those shrub Islands I'll continue to call them yep got it uh item two on page four uh as another condition he's requesting that the areas of irrigation be identified on the pl we'll do that okay and then regarding the West uh Westerly Wetland naturalized area uh he questioned whether or not an access gate is required for that area soas it's not required but we are open to providing okay so we would request that just as a condition in case there needs to be access to there and where is that again say again that is to the I guess that would be to the north right uh right next to the Wetland area there's an orange line that runs along this parking row um between the wooded area and the drive aisle in the parking lot so we will provide some gates 8 at least one you will need at least some in the area of the existing Sewer Lateral that runs through there so so to the outfall so we will propose at least two one near the existing sanitary lateral and one near the stormwater outall this FY this fence does not close 100% so it's not an isolated island but we agree that fence's gates are appropriate no fence Island and then and then uh Mr snes's last request was along the frontage of Em's drive to make sure that there's a Turf strip of minimally 5T that's maintained between the fence uh along the edge of the existing streetcape uh sidewalk in that area so just maintaining a 5 foot Turf area along the edge of the uh sidewalk we we would agree okay thank you very much in terms of the two gates so one was by the sanitary sewer ladder what was the other one Tyler uh there's a storm water outfall okay thank you okay um any other questions um you're up thank you Michael yeah this is quazi M Traffic consultant of the township we issued a letter on October 8 2024 uh pretty much what weiz is we had three outstanding comments the comment number one was the sign comment for do not stop signs second comment was the ad there was a general note missing for Ada accessible parking stalls and the third comment was the traffic study there are few tables missing to summarize the results the applicant has addressed all of them so at this time we do not have any outstanding comments they have addressed all the comment satisfactory and overall the traffic wise like David we I I think it's much more better option compared to the previous one with as far as the traffic circulation and pedestrian circulation is concerned you're okay with the flow inside the property and in and out coming off Edmond's Drive yes okay yes yeah thank you anybody I just have one thing um Francis maybe you could address this as whether we should pursue this at all it's your section um 2.02 you talk about possibly considering Bank parking and what's everybody's position on that yeah I I took Tyler's testimony that their let me just get the numbers out that their expected uh average parking um where's my note is uh 65 parking spaces and when you take the 79 to be constructed when you don't count the EV bonus and you deduct from those 79 to 13 that are shared you wind up with 66 parking which are directly to the the Chick-fil-A so to me that's close enough that they're really meeting their demand without being overly their own expected Demand right thank you okay um anybody for any questions okay then um like to hear from the public anybody from the public wish to speak on this application and the changes that were spoken to tonight please step up to microphone state your name and address for the record you'll be sworn in okay don't don't uh see anybody stepping up okay um I'll entertain a motion Rob no I just make motion to close public comment a motion to close the public comment second second okay all in favor say I hi hi okay any uh debate on the board I just have a question a couple of the reports talk about the application as an amended site plan um Francis does not it doesn't seem to me it's an amended site plan at all it's a new site yeah I think what been referred to as an amend it serves as one the purpose of one but it technically is a new application for preliminary and final major yeah title of plans were amended preliminary on us it's a new o yeah okay motion to open in the matter of PB 24-10 uh I move that the Westminster planning board approve the preliminary and final site plan with with uh waivers and conditions with waivers and conditions as noted by Council okay and if if I just may on the flag poll uh the condition obviously is that the applicant's going to work with the staff if there's a if there are complaints by office workers or residents uh if they can't resolve that does it come back to the board I would think so it can't be resolved by us and the staff we're willing to come back to the board for that issue after construction sure sure okay take resol it yeah they'll figure something out uh comment on the application I think as has already been mentioned by many of us the the I see the site plan as a real Improvement for flow and just uh relationship between the Wawa and uh this building um signage I'm I'm totally okay with the signage changes because this is a unique situation for Chick-fil-A coming down Highway One southbound you really you're not going to see the building uh because of the of of the foliage and the gas canopy uh of the Wawa so um I think the additional signage is will work well for their needs you see 50 foot flag uh well the 50 Foot flag's on the other side of the building though but you're right you you will see the flag P but uh and and if they have the the the the build out of the greenery on Long Emmons it'll Shield it even more so whereas oftentimes uh uh signage waivers are have always been a concern for our board uh I I think in this matter it's Justified yeah and the signage is all interior behind the WWA so that's why because the location of the site I'm okay with the size and the it's because it's in in interior yeah the sign essentially are proportional to the walls s okay um I had a motion to approve this uh application correct by ctis and Rob seconded please call the rooll Mr Lao yes Mr Shel yes Mr beg yes councilman Whitfield yes mayor morate yes Vice chair hberman yes chairman C yes motion carries thank you very much for the time and patience and allowing us to come back twice thank you very much y you're welcome okay I'm standing stretching stretching between well I can't go an application I can have a five minute reset five minute recess put all we have the Market Fair light Market Fair lighting now I don't think so yes Sam have a good night I mean always I'll devel no no I have I'll see when I just saying you might be surprised maybe they took your white is the key word never know so is there still intense traffic chickfila in the only other Chick-fil-A I noticed the YMCA and counties station Flemington Circle location people the so a lot of I agree yeah you scroll through it yeah I do it now I guess you know maybe not like giant I'm off for picking up materals picking G try it out and if like I I'll but I'm gonna try oh okay look what this guy has to carry look at that look at that look you doing to him what you doing to him Rob look you did Rob z z in the game nobody missed anything May has to come back the may may disappeared good issue when I first when I first saw on the planning we used to have we used to have pizza and water here I can't remember right right here thing I say take your take your con no sometimes there's resolution between report detail we used have is mailing a different board let's get this show Onish okay we have aish okay we're back we're back in session I just want to announce that the Rob L has a conflict and and will not participate in the next application um okay so next application is pb2 24-4 Market Fair sight lighting upgrades minus site plan with waivers block 7.15 Lots 14.04 and 14.05 3535 US Route One property Zone B2 District ml is 101624 okay I applicant okay good evening Tom laia attorney with trout pepp hilon s there representing and Tom let me say that two for publication and service in order and the board has jurisdiction thank you chair uh so I'm here representing teachers insurance and annuity Association of America or better known as teachers or Tia and as you know teachers is the owner of the property which is subject of tonight's application so this is a minor site plan application for upgrades to lighting in the parking areas uh of Market Fair on lot 14.04 and the adjacent office building on lot 1403 and block 7.15 uh we met a total of three times with uh the TRC uh to refine the lighting design so we are well aware that the board takes lighting of commercial properties seriously the uh markare real uh retail Center and the office building have shared parking since they were developed as a planed commercial development in 1980s uh the lots are currently under separate ownership uh the owner of the office building lot has consented to this application the property is within the B2 Neighborhood Center business zoning district and as you know from recent prior applications feachers hired Centennial as the new manager of Market Fair with the objective to elevate the shopping experience for customers and this application is a continuation of that endeavor tenants and their customers have complained about the lighting levels in the parking lots so Tia is proposing to upgrade all of the parking lot lighting uh to LED which is more energy efficient and controllable and along with that we are proposing six additional polls with fixtures uh to be added to illuminate existing dark areas in the parking lot so we're hopeful the board will agree that the proposed lighting plan is an improvement and that the proposed levels are appropriate and necessary for success of the center uh the township ordinance at section 200- 31 K1 requires an average maximum illumination of 0.5 foot candles throughout parking lots so we are requesting a waiver from this design standard to provide 2.80 fo handles average as as described in our application and will be in our presentation the uh second waiver relates to section 200- 31d of the ordinance which requires all non-security lighting to be turned off by 11: p.m. we request requesting a waiver to allow the lighting to be on selectively until 1:00 a.m. to allow customers and employees of both the movie theaters and the restaurant safe Passage through the parking lots when those businesses are open later which are normally on the weekends most of the businesses at the mall close at 8:00 pm so we are uh proposing to maintain parking lot levels at 2.08 foot candles until 9900 p.m. in order to provide a one hour time for employees of those businesses to exit and then at 900m Market far proposes to dim the lighting to an average of 1.29 hook handles and the lights will have motion detectors that will be uh installed on all the fixtures so they will brighten back up to that 2.8 foot candles if it detects Motion in the area and again this is between the hours of 900 p.m. and 1:00 a.m. and at 1:00 a.m. all lights will be turned off except for security lighting on the building so excuse me except for these two waivers the lights meet all your uh requirements of the ordinance okay in terms of the motion detectors so that'll pick up a person walking obviously yes okay so just not geared to cars not just cars walk you seem perplexed well uh Mr yeah here's what I'm perplexed about and and and and uh um it also shows my lack of real knowledge of Market Fair so I hope you guys can help me out okay I'm a scenario I'm a late night movie goer yet I've parked over by in the Barnes & Noble side can I Traverse through the mall at the end of the picture show to get to my car or do I have to walk around on the exterior to get there I so the mall will the the The Pedestrian parts of the Mall stay open until the last picture show ends okay thanks that always the no the the mall is always open there's no gates in the mall well I meant like pedestrian well I didn't know I didn't know if at the at the AMC end of it if they were able to cut off access to the I have nowh seen Gates have Gates and they will the gates everybody in yes exactly um let's SP all your Witnesses that's all three folks if you could raise your right hand if you could both raise your right hand you swear or affirm that testimony about to give will be the truth I do so want to affirm could you please each state your full name and spell your last name my name is Anthony Pino I'm the general manager of Market Fair last name spelled p i n o my name is Greg Telson last name is spelled t l l a s o n uh I am a national account executive for Regency Supply I thank you was a question yes to answer the question regarding the gate at AMC movie theater there is interior gate that separates the movie theater from The Market Fair common area but they close it at the end of their evening uh so we do allow it for uh customers at the end of their last showing to walk through the mall and exit if they did Park in a different section okay thank you is the doors by the Barnes & Noble on the outside of those remain open or can you get out but once you go out you be able to come back in so technically actually the scenario you mentioned Barnes & Noble also Gates so you would not be able to walk through Barnes & Noble and exit out by tomies you would be able to leave the movie theater go into the mall common area and walk straight uh where tji Fridays used to be or you can make a right and go out where seasons is currently those are the two exits you would be able to walk out after the mall closes you cannot get back in we do have mag locks uh it is security key only okay understood thanks okay just a couple more comments we have the opportunity to review uh France guzik's most recent memo dated October 11 2024 and we will agree to comply with all his comments just one clarification U Francis stated that and I think it was in section 1.2 that we were providing the seventh uh light pole near the meal Road access Drive actually what we're proposing is relocating a uh pole in that area and we will be adding a second head to that light order to provide more light at the metal road entrance into the mall which is what uh Fran asked us to uh to address we also received the comments by email of your landscape architect from bergus uh I forget his name landscape yeah it's I guess um and again we're willing to work with with Ed to address his comments it it had to do with our proposed plantings around the base of the new polls that we're proposing in order to Shield those uh uh those uh bases from View and uh I think he was questioned the number of plannings we're willing to to drop it down if he feels that's required as well as the spacing we'll work with to satisfy his requests uh there were some uh submission waivers uh s given this is a very minor approbation many of the checklists responds are not necessary uh to be met so uh I think I believe Mr gzik indicated no objection to those submission waivers we're happy to go through that um with the board but given the hour we may El left just to Mr do recommendation to wave those submission wavers so with that uh we'll give our presentation we're going to try to be very brief uh because I think this is pretty straightforward y so uh M I'll have Mr tellison uh provide you first with a little bit about his professional background and then I'll have him explain the uh the proposed um my name is Greg tson I've been with Regency Supply it's formerly known as Regency lighting for the past 40 years the companies I've been with them for 20 years uh I'm a certified lighting professional so uh what that means is that I uh I studied lighting uh took an exam uh and am recognized by my peers in the industry of having experience I've done several parking lot retrofits all over the country uh actually hundreds um and uh and so what we're proposing here Centennial hired me to to improve the lighting because they've received several complaints of dark areas and dark spots so with the existing lighting and being in a retrofit we did the best that we could um so there are some spots in the parking lot that are a little bit brighter than what we'd like because of the height of the pole at 25 ft um but also we wanted to make sure that we add stress those dark areas which is why we added the six um new poles um when U Mr gik uh Frank had talked to us about Metal Road uh we uh took that pole that was existing there and moved it and added an additional head to it so that way we can bring the lighting to that entrance um our overall foot candle is 2.8 and um as Tom said that we we have um added photo cells and uh motion sensors to each fixture to address the over lighting additionally um and so we were able to dim the fixtures down to 65% so we reduced the uh fixtures from 400 watts of the metal Halley which is a an a technology that's going away rapidly you can no longer get the ballast for them um and the lamps are are going to be obsolete pretty much um in the next probably three to five years um and so um we put the motion sensor on there we're dimming it down below 200 Watts so now we're saving the the the mall property even more energy on that A1 though this is the exact same plan that's your sets that's where the new light lights will be sure the the lights with the circles on them uh are the the new lights so you'll see them uh on on the bottom portion bottom left um towards the right um up at the top where AMC is um on both sides and then the the pole that is being moved is over by Meadow Road all the way over to the left so all of the new light poles that you're closing are located within Islands correct so I guess the question I have is and I think this was alluded to in our last application but yes is why do you have it at three foot in height for the U for the foundation coming up 3 feet and then you're attaching it I can understand that if it were freestanding in a parking lot you want to do that so that the car is not been there's no chance I me there may be a chance but I think really should be at gr or at least 6 in above yeah um gr think that's what I supped to as well in terms of height from it's 25 from grade it's like 25 on top no I'm talking about the actual the actual Foundation is up three foot above grade it's for me is it from my point of view it's very unesthetic in appeal I think really is ugly quite frankly and uh I see no reason that it can't be lowered and you just get a larger po so as Tom alluded to earlier that's what we were working with the landscape engineer about um being that they the poles are going the concrete bases with the poles on top are going in existing landscape beds we are going to start the 3-foot concrete base from grade and then we're going to build up some mulch around the base and then have some Shrubbery going around the perimeter of it um quite frankly I don't think that's correct way to do this I think it'll be more appropriate to just have it at at grade or six inches above I don't think what you're proposing is going to work long term shrubs are going to die it just it's not gonna you're not going to have anything that's going to hide it so that's I guess the question would be why the three-foot foundation if it's on an island oh unfortunately we did have the experience of a a vehicle going onto an island and taking out one of our poles recently um maybe six months ago uh there was a police report experience within islands are fairly safe this is not a reason to come up with a concrete above I think it's Cur yeah it's curb yeah majority view that we should either make it lower do away with them or willing to consider them again it was really to protect the lighting because we've had these instances is it required that the the height be 25 fet it's allow higher you go the more efficient corre okay so so if you had like a concrete base that was three feet and then you had a 25 pole would that be 28 feet to the height we have 22 foot po 22 on a three foot B correct okay so you can't go above 25 ft correct so 3 ft plus 25 basically you just get a PO that's okay so what's Alan's proposing is it goes directly in the ground you need a 25 foot pole I just want to point out be the bases that we're talking about is just the new the six new LS 246 we're not talking about all the other the new six the six new ones just those it's just the six new ones and that'll stand out I mean I I just and well well the well the rest of the poles the existing poles those are in concrete bases yeah six in from the GD yes correct I'm sorry say again they're at Curb height yeah they're they're at level not there's no six foot there's no three foot Bas there's no three if you were to put these six new ones in a concrete base they' stand out because they'd be different than all the others they would stand out in a way but that's why we're going to try and mimic the current landscape design and bring the same shrubs bring the same height of the mulch bed so really above the mulch bed you may only see a foot of the Concrete Plus we'll have Shrubbery around it to uh mask it okay um your thoughts Michael what are you thoughts on the reaction I don't really I don't I don't I mean I'll defer to the rest of the board I don't really have I mean for my planning experience okay I've never really seen this kind of a base other than when it's actually in a parking lot that's when you need the protection oh right if it's if it's like um flush to the parking lot between like four spaces or something right right on the asph right right on the so Jerry am I still sworn in or do you need to swear me in again you and David if you both raise your right hand do you swear or affirm that testimony about to give be the truth I I do so one so the only thing I wanted to add because this came up during TRC uh was what the precedent is along the Route One Corridor and I was surprised to find out that the Whole Food Center has three-foot foundations both freestanding and in islands and in Nassau Park just about all of Nassau Park has the three-foot concrete but they they're treated as was described by Anthony where because they are in the landscape islands and they are not right on the curb line the soil is mounded up the mulch is mounded up so that the amount of concrete you actually see is not a full 2 and 1/2 foot exposure but it's it's only about 12 to 15 inches on so the the landscape islands are wide enough that you can build up the mulch beds to it yeah because typically they're they're uh 10 foot wide or the width of a parking space so they're nine 10 feet wide and this this Foundation sits in the middle so there there's room to to slope the ground because if it was narrow and then all a sudden you have this three foot concrete right which which is what you do have in Whole Foods because you do have foundations that are not protected by Island so you just see the concrete and then a light pole on top of it right but those are directly on the asphalt yes correct Francis in terms of the mulch are there any issues with heavy rains washing out the mulch it's there no different than a landscape BM I mean it's not super steep you know that it's got a slope to it but you have all these landscape BMS just like you heard they're going to be putting in for Chick-fil-A they put in a landscape BM and there's slope to it and the mulch as long as it's not too steep it it binds it to itself so because the Island's wide enough the it's not it's not that deep it spread it's kind of like wide it's it's like it's a dome okay it's Dome it's not like a ski it's a it because I'm picturing the islands that are very narrow between parking spaces and so in order for you to get a mulch it would be pretty yeah like I said they don't go up the entire three feet if they went up the entire three feet then yes you they would they would stand out because they look the the island I mean the footing is 2 by two so what's the width of the island I mean the well like you can see they're about the width of a parking stall so they're about eight nine feet wide they're going to rip them up there's only six of he going in feet on each side and I'm again I'm just putting this out because this was something that I brought RC and just to understand what it was in the area because you know I I gotta respect what president has been said in the rest of the township I don't seem it seems Seems okay to me only because two things it's it's prevalent in the area in other shopping centers and the Island's wide enough to get some kind of Dome effect but I'll leave it up to the rest of the board to I think I agree with you right if if it was going to be like this narrow thing that's going to look like a volcano sticking out of the island then I would say I agree I say no because that would look silly and if everybody else had you know it differently so that's just my opinion I'm just one vote here just to add a little more clarity as well the the length of the island is two full length parking spaces so that's about 20 feet 20 feet and then you have the width as a full parking space so at 10 feet so you you can get a decent height around that base without right you get a pretty a decent slope and um our landscapers are at the property every week so if there is any watchh out from a heavy rain they clean that up right away um can I ask a question is this is this similar to what's going to be or the concrete's even more covered so so looks like that that much concrete showing but some shrubs around it is that correct looks like less than three that's what's there no I know ours are maybe a little wider but yeah that's a foot above no I know things I try to avoid hitting them so how how I don't I don't have a problem with it um it's going to be a little more covered up than this you think about a foot foot and a half that's probably an accurate yeah but I think it's going to be wider seems like it will they say about 10 to 20 feet Island okay it's a big island yeah because that that Island's narrower than yeah so like you see on the image it'll be the sides where it's coming from the size not from the long end where the trees are but where it's coming spread out maybe that that amount the concrete showing but more spread out with some shrubs so I don't have a problem with so just I don't to clarify how many shrubs are we talking about what type of shrubs from my understanding they were Evergreen uh I forget the exact species that's probably covered in Ed sn's report uh they were proposing eight but in looking at uh the species and their growing height they when they're in a good environment they can get 10 15 feet in size so I think Ed's comment was that they probably need to work with him to reduce the number going in and adjust the spacing so that there is room for Healthy Growth where they don't crack yeah that was um so Ed sik did review this he uh was going to offer com out on this didn't issue a report um his request was that they were proposing as you can see from that detail eight shrubs around the lighting fixture his recommendation was actually to reduce that to six which kind of sounds antithetical why would you want less Landscaping terms and not more uh the reason being is because these can grow pretty significantly uh yes yeah uh he said in it's unpruned unpruned form can grow as large as 11 feet so if you have too many shrubs like that together they'll grow too large and you're going to start killing each other uh you can zoom in right there it's got the species in the bottom right think it's a golf tide GF tide yeah so we did get those comments from the landscape um engineer we did make those adjustments so this is our proposed and we haven't shown you the uh adjustments yet but I do have that if you would like to see it it is just the six instead of the eight okay and you know if the board approves this application obviously one of the conditions could be working with Ed Nike is to make sure that the Landscaping is um designed properly but his initial recommendation was reduce to plan things around the light fixtures from 8 to six so that way you're not going to be overcrowding the shrubs and killing them and basically getting nothing in return can um I'm just throwing this out there can the concrete be wrapped in something or colored concrete to make it more aesthetically pleasing yes it could be painted no I wouldn't want to paint it because then you have to maintain it I don't know if it can mixure may want to consider it maybe work with the with Ed to kind of come up with like more aesthetically pleasing design yeah you could probably artificially age it or distress it yeah once it's in yeah some dirt just I'm okay with what it looks like but um you know just a thought okay yeah the proposed um shrubs are de okay there you go don't have to you don't have to paint it now the shrubs are going to cover here you go um anything else the the only other thing thing regarding Landscaping that I would offer and which really Mr snik is offers is that some of the light uh relocations or additions may require some tree pruning he would request that that be done by a qualified tree expert okay no problem we have qualified Tree Experts on site at regular times I I'll leave it to the applicant to get the right person they wouldn't want someone to trim the tree that um wasn't qualified like me or me okay um okay ran anything the only other thing I would add um is the the testimony you heard regarding the times uh just be clarified and the notes on the plan because currently the the plan talks about reducing lighting percentages uh but they're not really tied to foot candles foot candles and to the the actual hours like what time of day is is this gonna happen so I heard 65% but 65% all right so I think 65% would be the normal and then at 9 p.m. they be reduced to the 30 but be on motion detector yeah it should we should we should State the foot candle equivalence and the times that it'll be reduced to so that it's very clear detail yeah the only other thing for uh for Greg I think the way your plan well came in that the front parking area the average foot candle was 3.27 not the 2.8 I think the 2.8 was just the market Mall yeah it's the it's the overall mall but yeah the that front because of where the the fixtures are it was uh 3.27 right so there will be even though they talked about the 2.8 the application the one section of it would be 3.27 but it is the front parking area which is the US1 Frontage so I would be okay with that waiver so it's probably better that it be two separate waivers the one uh marketplace mall parking is 2.8t candles and the front parking area is 3.27 foot candles average so it's clear and there's not a problem after construction okay o overall Fran regarding the lighting um point five is in the udance 2.8 is going to be what they're proposing any issues over just an General overview makes sense what they yeah I it's consistent what other uh centers have done and are doing there are some that have requested higher averages and have um have not been as cooperative and as sensitive to the neighbors as as Market Fair has been I commend them for how much they worked with us as as you heard they took three meetings right for TRC before they got here and to come back and say that they'll be at uh you know 900 p.m. down to the the reduced average and put on Motion Center I mean that's a lot of expense for them to try to keep the neighbors happy right the question just in general maybe not obviously not for this meeting but if the ordinance is 0.5 and you heard two applications tonight where you know 2.8 3.2 something way above 0.5 maybe 0.5 is not the right ordinance I don't know just thrown it out there same thing with signs we've uh I've I guess for the board's information I've asked the uh environmental commission when Dan was here about what they thought about this because of the number of waivers that have been granted in the past and whatnot and with with a lot of the research they've done as well that it appears that the the0 five um when the ordinance was written I don't know where the template came from because a lot of towns have this standard yes when you look at the uh not the it that's Transportation but the illumination engineer Society uh IES yeah IES that when you go back and read the older literature they talk about 05 as a um a a spot elevation they don't really give an average but for some reason whoever had crafted these ordinances took the 0.5 as an average instead of a a minimum spot elevation that it's it's wind up causing these problems pretty much throughout the state for boards to to be in this situation so probably realistically like you're seeing tonight a real realistic average is probably two to three depending on if your minimum security average security high security it's going to right vary yeah guess um you start out with 0. five it's easy to to Grant the waiver to go up or VAR go up but um if you if it was at three the ordinance was at three it's hard to go down if they meet the requirement right correct I'd like to Echo what Michael has just his observation on on lighting levels and I've lost count account of the number of zoning applications as well as planning applications where waivers have been requested for you know foot candle levels especially around intersections that's happened on the numerous applications where the applicant at an intersection also with s also letters okay well I'm thinking particularly I'm really focusing on lighting levels and foot candles I again I'm not an engineer but I don't know how many times I've said that tonight um you know typically if you look at a sign regulation and you're requiring a foot long sign that's an that's a number that we can always hit right it's an easier number to hit in terms of foot candles always seems very hard for me to hit that specific number just due to the variability of site in general so if you have a 0. five standard if you're 04 or6 you're you're technically not compliant even though you know visually that might look very similar so I always wanted to made more sense to have ranges instead of specific numbers to hit but Food For Thought okay any else anybody okay uh this time I'd like to open up for the public to step up to microphone and state your name and address for the record you don't have to move out of the way don't worry um okay I went to motion close the public hearing so move move by the mayor second by Allen all in favor say I okay debate amongst ourselves anything no okay I'll I'll entertain um entertain a motion to um approve application pb2 24-4 Market Fair site lighting upgrades anybody I'll make the motion motion by Allan to4 second by second please follow the rols Please Mr Chapel yes Mr beg yes councilman Whitfield yes mayor marate yes chairman hberman yes chairman C yes and um the Motions were were with any conditions that Jerry has documented um I vote Yes and um approved thank you thank you very much thank you close session Jerry Sam I do have a question for the November 6th meeting of the materials that we've received tonight are there any materials still pending or this is complete agenda and staff reports okay okay thank you okay um November 6 next meeting no other meeting journ Sam thank you Sam Sam Sam coming around Sam Sam C please report to the office say something that shouldn't be on video all the trees