welcome everyone today is Tuesday April 2nd 2024 this is the finance committee meeting I'd like to call the meeting to order with a pledge of allegiance at 6:30 I pledge of allegiance to the flag the United States this meeting is being held remotely in accordance with the governor of Massachusetts March 12 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law GLC 30A section 20 and on March 29th 2023 Governor Healey signed a supplemental 2023 budget Bill allowing remote and hybrid meeting options for public bodies through March 31st 2025 this meeting is being recorded um welcome everyone thank you um we are wrapping up our warrant article presentations and then we'll be working on recommendations so our we have one more article the CPC and we have invited Betty Slade and she's here with us tonight so I would like to turn the floor over to you Benny welcome and thank you for being here thank you for considering this article Article 13 uh this year we have um three um basically four projects one and I'll go through each one of them more carefully but one is to completely rebuild the town by Centennial playground up near the macumber school the second one is then that's 350,000 the second one is affordable housing trust um 300,000 uh the third is historic Cemetery website which is 30,000 and the bell Schoolhouse Rehabilitation as Westport History Center um we also had to set aside reserves uh we have to do 10% of our um estimated fund revenues either as reserves or as a project and we used historic preservation reserves actually to do the uh the history project some of them historical uh preservation projects uh administrative funds is 40,000 uh that's a maximum of 5% of our estimated revenues and budgeted reserves are what is left over after you've used all your estimated uh fund revenues for the next year either as reserves or uh as projects I think you've seen all of this uh it's in the Articles at R have you seen this so you know basically yes it's listed in Article 13 yes and I just I just actually day before yesterday sent in the final version uh because there were a couple of typos F y23 instead of FY 25 and so forth so the um we had total revenues um we're expecting total revenues of 856 th000 this coming year of which we're using 746,000 uh for projects so so that leaves us 110 for Budget reserves as I mentioned before um often people ask what uh what kind of reserves do we have after we've done the projects we've uh and will be about 855,000 we have in reserves for future years um we usually have more in that but projects are getting to be um much more expensive um the first one is an example the town Bicentennial playground project that's estimated to cost at $800,000 to put in a new a new uh playground of course CPC members reacted very strongly to that but we were convinced that that's what it's going to cost um we do have um 200,000 which we got from private funding um and um we will be using CPA funding for the rest of it it'll be a complete replacement of the uh existing playground I don't know if you've seen it up there and um it will have it it'll be completely accessible it'll be completely safe it'll be up toate and really good play structures so that's our first project and that's our only project and open space and Recreation the second is the um community housing uh project that category of CPA funding um and this year the affordable housing trust um ask us for 40,000 for the housing assistance office um they ask for 200,000 for land acquisition and development we the CPC has encouraged the affordable housing trust to um get a um try to build up the funding that they have available in case projects come come up come available because then they have to move quickly uh and they've done a plan for the future and they are doing that we're we're hoping that they would concentrate on larger projects uh 30 units or more uh and and that's what we've been encouraging them to do um preab is uh is it's there is um existing affordable housing and um the people who are living in those homes owning those homes can come back to the affordable housing trust and ask for help if certain things go wrong like dangerous electrical and plumbing conditions and so forth so the afford Housing Trust is set aside from CPA funds um 60,000 to help uh some of these houses that have these particular problems um the second Pro the last two projects are in historic preservation um there's been a historic Cemetery website um which has been private uh privately uh developed managed custom developed when we first started the cemetery projects um and now it's failing and the person who set it up said he's not going to spend any more time on it so the town itself needs to have a cemetery website they need also to have the cemetery software that is necessary to keep the records accurately they've been dependent on our private Cemetery website so the CPC felt that this was a um a a good uh investment for the town and uh We've located the possibility of software for $330,000 the last is the Bell Schoolhouse as you probably know last year and previous years um the CPC has invested in uh has has recommended town meeting support for this incredible project the Bell Schoolhouse is the center of uh history in Westport and the new center once this is finished will be excellent but last year or year we found out that there wasn't enough funding to achieve the kinds of uh projects that they wanted to do and they came back to us for 110,000 uh they've been hit by covid issues um uh the costs that have risen because of covid and labor cost and so forth um you might not remember that the um private funds for this um Rehabilitation it the total with private and public will be about a million dollars we have this this historical society will do a grant agreement with the town and uh they have agreed to put a historical preservation restriction on the outside of the building so that it will always be preserved uh in that way so those are our projects any questions okay yes well I have a quick question for you Betty do you have more projects in quue or do you have enough funding if more projects came or are there projects on hold because you don't have funding how projects are on hold because we don't have funding we have um nearly 900,000 in reserves available um we are expecting a fairly large significant Open Space Project next year um there are a couple of others in historical preservation but um there's nothing really in the Q right now okay does anyone else have questions for Betty no always a nice job Betty and always succinct into the point so thank you well you know we appreciate everything you do and your committee works really hard and does some fantastic projects so it's always nice to get a a brief overview of them and um we one of the great things about C about CPA funding is that it is joint town uh private funding I mean it it it brings together people and people come to us from private sector come to us and um they can they for example the Historical Society or the handy house or various things like that and they provide the expertise actually rais funds um and it brings Community together I think CPA is really good for bringing Community together besides the kinds of things that it does that people really like so PE it's the people who are asking for these projects generally I think you get a fun committee we have a good committee yeah that's great Karen can you hear me go ahead Hugh I just wanted to add that we know but the audience may not know CPC can allocate funds only to certain categories one of is open space one is affordable housing one is historic preservation and within those categories as Betty is saying there be a lot of different possibilities but the funds cannot be used for things like the operating fund or other things that don't fall within the categories correct sometimes people get disappointed there also there's also some legal restrictions that have come up um we had an issue this year um with a church that wanted financing and uh Town Council ruled that it would be illegal to finance that project it's possible they're trying to find a way around that but we shall see I think that's a good point also bears that rule changed a few years ago that's right in we did some um historic preservation with churches it's not that we changed our mind if the rules changed right the Supreme Court of Massachusetts made a ruling and now the various cpcs around the state are trying to interpret it and see how far they can go I I might add also one other question did come up during the course of the Year particularly uh in reference to the um one of the uh items here on on the list if it's coming from if if the funds are coming from um fund res fund revenues that are already reserved and not anticipated those funds are available as soon as the town meeting is certified they do not have to wait until July 1st to receive those funds those as soon as the the um annual town meeting is certified those funds become available to to the um recipient uh provided they are coming from reserves and not anticipated fund revenues yes that's Cindy that's why there is this funny allocation that youing for the funding we know that certain things need to be done immediately and certain things can wait so we try to allocate it to make it easier on for the project uh applicants right great any other questions for Betty Betty this was nice and succinct and brief and we appreciate it thank you doesn't come from your budget either we've had a lot of long presentations so I think we'll um be happy with a nice 10-minute presentation right thanks Betty appreciate you're coming thank you thank you David all right um okay so um we may as well knock this one off the the chart and we may as well uh if we're ready to just make a motion on this article 13 so we can put this one to rest if anyone would like to um I'll make a motion to uh approve recommend approval of uh Article 13 second thank you so much okay so as we do this tonight just as we did uh on other ones I'm going to go into in the same order for everyone so um once you kind of realize your order you won't need to wait for me to call on you you can State your full name and then your uh recommendation so um here's the order so Hugh I'm starting with you uh I refuse myself okay thank you so you are is that an abstain is that what we call it yes I I think that would be abstain right okay hi Gary Gary yes thank you Christopher Christopher Thrasher i l Alain thank you obain Cindy Cindy Brown I Michelle Mando I thank you Zachary Zack La Brew I thank you Duncan Duncan law I thank you and Karen R I thank you all right one down one down a few to go um okay so what I'd like to start with first is our fiscal 25 budget and um uh I didn't print that one out for me but uh We've we've had this on our queue for quite some time and uh not much has changed in the last month or so um there's been no new information that's come from the Town Administrator that we need to uh add something that has more recently come to light since the select board um recommended their budget we have not received any newer information from the state in regards to state aid or assessments so we really at this point um there's nothing else that's that's come so the the budget that's been before us um is ready to um for us to review and then make some recommendation make our recommendation for town meeting so I think there were uh a couple of items in there from the last time that we spoke uh one was the town engineer we had question questioned um that position because that's a new position that the select board was requesting into the budget we uh talked to the Town Administrator about that and he explained what the purpose of the Town engineer is for um but we never circled back uh I don't know if anybody has any comments on the town engineer or uh if we're uh we're fine with the number as it is or if anybody has any comments on that uh we also talked about um the Animal control officer um I had made recommendation before that when we had talked about it when they were here that they were really underst staffed and they were using overtime to um fund whatever they can with the position and I had asked the chair of the Board of Health and suggested they came up with a proposal of an additional 25,000 would really be significance to them that they could uh then work with that and really help fund uh a part-time second position as backup and then the third item that we have is the school budget so those are as far as I know uh the three things that we need to talk through if there's if somebody has anything else feel free to um to share anything Karen I I would only add that in relation to the school budget additionally if if if we have any discussion or debate about the amount of the of the school budget we also have to discuss the source of funding for the school budget So currently it's coming out of the um a different formula funding versus using free cash so in that same vein when we're discussing if if if we as a group proposed to recommend a different amount uh we need to adjust the uh orig address the source of funding as well right thank you and just just a few a few new members so um again the select board makes its recommendation to the finance committee um the finance committee is independent so we can accept the budget as it is or make any changes we feel appropriate so we're not tied to the select board's budget um it's we're here to um determine what we feel is best and it's the finance committee budget that will be printed in the warrant and that's what will be re will be recommended at town meeting and then of course the town meeting um anybody on the floor could make any changes or make any motions as well go ahead Michelle um so we recommend it but can the select board override that no so on town meeting floor on town meeting floor I'm sorry on town meeting floor anybody can do anything anybody can but before that so they gave you we have the budget that they put together we do whatever and then that's the one that goes into town meeting and then at that point people can make changes correct would the select board ever make a change or an individual representing themselves would make a change not necessarily as a select board member it could be either it could be either okay okay I mean you know in reality we all like to be on the same page if we can so we don't have the finance committee has a budget and then the select board has a different budget um so the select if if the finance committee were to make changes to their budget they may go back as and they did this last year I think the finance committee made some changes to the budget they presented to the finance committee then we voted on our recommendation the select board went back and said that's reasonable we'll revote and we support the finance committee's budget so they could do that or they might not re agree with what our recommendations are and they may on Town floor as a group say something or not who they can do whatever they want right but they would never like be so after today let's say we put the we vote on it we made changes would they ever prior to printing the warrant and before the meet say no we're not going to go with that this is they cannot go with that okay cannot this is this is the finance committee's article that's the purpose of all of this Finance I got you okay it is the finance committee's article we they cannot force us to change anything we determine what gets printed in the warrant in that article for understood I wasn't quite the final the final budget gets put together okay thank you yes um Al you had a question question just a point of information uh refreshing my memory the the town engineer if I remember correctly was based on the fact that Jim is swamped and then there's the potential of uh a route six project uh which you know it just it just goes on and on and on and on so the my question is that if the rout six project does not pass do we still need a an engineer it's a question it's not it's not a statement that we don't I just my my my understanding was that was you know the engineer for that project would be a would be practically a full-time engineer and would be paid for by that project of course with the assistance of any Town engineer there are many many other projects around town the Hicks Bridge Project Hicks Bridge Project the East Beast project the many sewer and drain systems or the drainage systems throughout the town that require engineering and many of those projects sit there and wait because we have to wait to get an outside engineer to come in and and look at these things so this is really a helpful tool for the for the highway department not yeah I'm just saying that's that's how he kind of works into it that this is really a necessary entity for all involv for all the Departments involved not just the root six project okay that was my understanding yeah and just to just to be clear too so the budget appropriates the funds it doesn't necessarily mean the position would end up getting hired if if they so chose to not so this is appropriating the dollars so if they choose to hire it so they could for whatever reason change their mind and they're not obligated to have to hire the position just the funds are there in the event they do great thank you um Zach go ahead yeah I was just going to say maybe we could start with the the topics we know um won't have as much conversation to be had you know the animal control office the animal control position and I think this other position that we just kind of talked about so we can you know be strategic and make sure we spend the time on the big ones yeah the the only three that I'm aware of of what I mentioned so those are the only uh throughout the the last month when we've talked about the budget those are the items that have have surfaced uh that we didn't uh talk about so that's that's what I got if anybody else again has anything else on in the budget that they want to bring forward uh we certainly will entertain the discussion but I don't know of anything else in the budget at this point Karen I just wanted to offer for some comments on the engineer and many years ago I was on a planning board in a different town the engineer was involved in lots of things so I think we're can look at an engineer that's to some extent an assistant to the building inspector too there are all kinds of things that come up with an engineering note type and so having that capacity around is not just the idea of Route Six but lots of things where having an engineering consult available and being valuable go ahead go ahead this wouldn't be a cons this wouldn't be a consultant this would be a full-time position with Benefits correct yes it would be they allocated they allocated 120,000 in the budget for it yeah so the question I have is how much do we really spend on Engineering Services in town I mean I get that Jim's doing some of that but how much of his time is dedicated to engineering can we can we maybe spend 50,000 and have somebody certifi plant um you talk about Route 6 the route 6 project is a state that's State Highway why would a town engineer be involved with a state project engineering roads on State Highway he wouldn't be this is really more for many of the other tary things that go on in in the town it could be something as simple as a you know drainage duct you know that's that needs to be replaced that's wasn't put in accurately you know on Adamsville Road whatever I mean there's so many other things as you mentioned there are lots of things that the engineer would get involved in so I this really has very little to do with Route Six yeah how how much of I guess we don't know the answer to that how much how much time is dedicated to Engineering Services in town and can it be contracted out instead of a full-time position with Benefits well they they do contract it out currently and part of the problem is when when they need Engineering Services since we don't have one on the payroll part of the problem is they have to to wait for someone now who's not familiar with it who now maybe in three weeks can come and look at it then has to become familiar with whatever the issues are in the town it it takes so much longer to get things done by hiring up because you're not necessarily always going to get the same person if they're not available so I mean I I think it's it's it's a position that will be well served if after a few years they feel that it's not um you know not good I mean they can they can offer it as a contract Service uh with someone and give them a limited two or threee contract um you know I'll leave that up to the uh select board but um you know I don't think that this would necessarily mean it's forever yeah I think the from just from my standpoint it's a you know it's it's 100 $100,000 plus position which is pretty expensive for the town um you know the question that that I had was you know is there any way can just be a contract and where you're not obligated to a full-time employee that that it's hard to have a full-time employee and then after two years to say we don't need you anymore um as opposed to if it's a contracted position then you can contract it out and and set term um but can we hire one new person in this town that that has some some benefit I mean the highway department has has been keeps shrinking other departments keep shrinking can we at least add put some additive value into the budget that will help many departments across the way and at least provide some benefit somewhere instead of always cutting yeah no and and I I agree and you know just to remind everyone Jim had in the select board had a a long list of uh positions critical positions that they really um and especially Jim you know he's Jim is the the HR admin he's the procurement officer he's the finance officer he's a lot of things and so this position would certainly help help him and this is the position that he felt was the most important thing to help uh him in the town so um I'm not here to dispute that so that's for them to determine so I'd support that so I you know I support the the town engineer yeah Q go ahead I gotta say all these points perfectly good I'm just going to say we will find out how much we save in not Contracting out having somebody on board to do things and no one at this point knows I think what the figure is and it may turn out to be modest but it may also turn out to be very substantial because Cindy's point is very good new guys come in to do a job they're probably gonna charge for their time and getting up to speed to understand what each job is we pay for that so if we have the in-house we don't have to pay it it offsets cost it's far more efficient to have the guy who knows what's going on and if we find out that it doesn't really work or save much Etc then it's not we plan to let him go but we have to make decisions in the future is it does anyone have a contrary opinion does does anyone feel that this shouldn't be in the budget Kon Duncan had had his hand up and it kind of goes up and down I haven't seen okay there it is it's up go ahead Duncan yeah I just I just I guess I just want to question I mean I mean on on the face of it it seems like we had to hire a town Town engineer but you know I look at something like you know we have a part-time IT director and he probably puts in you know 30 hours a week I mean is that an option where we can find a consultant that we can retain for 30 hours a week or something like that so instead of 120 it's 75 to my understanding they're willing to accept any you know any their ideal view is that they would like to have a full-time position that is under their purview that would report to there still working out the details of how the reporting hierarchy would be but someone that the board of Selectmen would be able to I don't want to use the word control but would have under their purview to determine what projects are are important uh and how the time would be expended versus each department trying to kind of Rally or Jimmy their way around getting an engineer to come in and do certain things or have a part-time person which may be overwhelmed so I think you know they would be happy with anything uh you know with any uh notion towards having a town engineer whether it be part-time or full-time they're they feel the load is there for full-time uh you get part-time you know I don't I don't know how many part-time Engineers there are out there uh um no I don't either and I and again I tend to support the full-time engineer I'm just I'm just you know I'm hearing concern about 120,000 bucks of benefits and you know I'm trying to see if there's middle ground or there's another way to play it I think the answer is that we authorize money in the budget it'll be up to those who are doing the hiring and organizing the position to deal with just these questions I agree Hugh go ahead Zach yeah I guess I would say you know at first when I heard the amount and the position I I was kind of leaning to be against it because it seems a lot with the situation that our budget's in now but you know the more I think about it it's it's a job and itself to find someone to fulfill that job within individual projects and individual times of the year I think that if the position was to be full-time and year round or at least have the funding for it um it would be much more likely for the needs of the town to be filled so I think we got to take into consideration the amount of work it would take just to fulfill if this was you know to say say on 125 we save 45 but yet there's still you know um someone's G to find these people for for these individual projects and that's another burden on Jim so I'm kind of leaning towards the the full-time role here okay okay great thank you Zach um go ahead Al yeah I just wanted to to to Echo what what Cindy said earlier that that pardon me I think we've gotten to a point in this town where we have tried to cheap ourselves down to a point now where I've never seen a business that has ever cut expenses to a point that has ever grown and the town is a business so we need to start slowly building the building blocks for the f future and a town engineer seems to make sense to me I mean between the schools the highway department Ralph on and on and on I mean that that person maybe wouldn't even want the job if they saw the job right so so anyway I just want to Echo that I'll and I'll end it there and I'm in support of it to right go ahead I was ready to make a motion but go ahead yeah yeah I don't know that we're going to make a motion on the entire budget so we can make a motion on the line item but or not but I think it sounds like there is an opposition so it's sounds too so we can make a motion I don't think we need to but okay we're g to Budget on the whole so it sounds like uh at least the majority here are uh we'll find out in when we vote vote on the budget yeah I mean do we want to make a motion on the it's I don't know onine reason not to to clarify things I think favor but let's move the doubt I I would make I would make a motion to um leave the town engineer as requested in the uh budget recommended by the select Board second second and any other discussion before we go to uh nope okay so I'm G to go in the same order Hugh you Mor and I all right Gary you're up uh Gary no Gary no okay um Christopher Christopher Thrasher I thank you L Al Le I Cindy Cindy Brown I Michelle Michelle Alando I thank you Zach Zack Brew I Duncan Duncan law I and Karen I all right so next item of uh much smaller is the Animal control officer um the recommendation is to add $25,000 from what was originally in the select board's budget and that is to help again help there's one full-time person that manages 247 and uh when they presented to us they there was some pretty significant overtime that was trying trying to help fill fill the Gap and this the uh Board of Health came back with a proposal of adding 25,000 and they can had add a part-time person and that's uh was all sent to you a few weeks ago I I would move that we include an additional $25,000 in the Animal control officer budget for that purpose for the purpose of add uh it was adding in a part-time person right was for adding a part-time person yeah second second y just going to add that this is one of these things where we're adding money but we're also we hope offsetting additional appropriation for for overtime so it's I maybe a maximum cost of what we're allocating but it may turn out to be a good deal less by existing all you have to do is read shorelines the police reported Shor lines and you look at the time and the dates of most of the animal complaints and they happen at you know 2 :30 in the morning on Saturday or Sunday morning at 1:00 am or you know it's it's on the off hours of of the Animal Control Officers so you know that they are dealing with these things quite often in the middle of the night on the weekends so uh I'm sure they're putting in some overtime so having that part-time person working weekends will be much more helpful right and again the finance committee is appropriating the funds we're not hiring a person so we don't have the authority to do that right um we're putting the funds they are the Board of Health is still going to have to go in front of the select board and request the position and and do all the things they need to do so they don't automatically get to hire somebody so they still have to follow so we're again we're appropriating the dollar so they can have those conversations and figure that out so we have a motion in a second any other conversations before we vote on this one I see none so I will do a roll call Hugh Hugh I Gary Gary yes Christopher Christopher Thrasher i al Alie is I Cindy Cindy Brown I Michelle shelle orando I Zachary Zach La Brew I Duncan Duncan law I and Karen RS I thank you okay so the last one is the school number um just to recap um Hugh did you want to go no I was gonna just respond after you through oh you're ready to respond okay that's oh sure thing no absolutely just just to give the recap uh the select board um we do the the normal 54% split uh of of Revenue the select board uh through discussions with the finance committee and through discussions of The Five-Year Plan uh talked about reducing the um the free cash from 500,000 from last year down 100,000 each year for the next five years to eventually um eliminate free cash from the operating budget so the select board initially did do that I'm just recapping for everyone so the the the select board did add the 400,000 but then they proceeded to uh changed the revenue sharing formula and added another $252,000 of additional Revenue sharing so the school right now is getting 652 th000 above the normal um recurring 54% split that would be there and so that's where we are at right now so Hugh you uh go ahead I just gonna say I don't like anything about it but I don't have any better approach so that I think we're in my view we're stuck with it under the circumstances and we hope we can do something better in another year but I don't see anything around it so therefore I put it this way I'm not in favor but I'm not opposed but it that way I go with it thank you Cindy go ahead uh yes is there um sufficient funds in free cash to substitute the amount of money that would be coming from the um from the split and now put that over to free cash so this would be yet an increase another increase in year in free cash but we have not um changed the allocation in the base budget so that in future years we're still dealing with the same formula and using the additional free cash your your estimation of what is available in free cash Karen would that allow that two 52 to come from free cash it would so what so the suggestion that I made if if everyone felt that we wanted to keep the number at 652 the suggestion that I had would be we're using free cash to pay off a campground debt so it's just a flip so rather than use the free cash to pay the campground we're using the free cash to fund the school and we're using the regular Revenue sharing to pay off the campground right okay the suggestion would be not to do it as Revenue sharing because that's always going to become permanent in forever so if the committee wanted to do the 652 th000 I would suggest it be in the form of all free cash and not Revenue sharing but having said that I am in disagreement entirely with 6 152,000 of free cash so I I'll be honest I um you know we we had an over o override attempt it was not successful we really need to get this budget in balance and it needs to get there and we're moving in the opposite direction so the school number was a it started off at 150,000 went to 300,000 for free cash went to 500,000 in free cash and now it's at 652 we're moving in the wrong direction and we have to start reducing it there we we can't continue this and so I cannot personally support 652 th000 whether it's free cash or free cash in Revenue it's not something I can support go ahead Al L you might oh there you go you're muted Al freezing a little bit there you go okay now yeah I cannot support the uh the change in the percentage um I think it sets a bad precedent it gets embedded I am in total sympathy with you know the the challenges that the school department has many of these things uh that that are thrown at us them and other other towns in the state are out of their control whether it is special ed whether it is transportation whether it is but there has to be a medium ground there H coming to the Middle where uh we don't just continue to escalate uh every single year it's it's it's like you know Death By A Thousand Cuts every year it's a little more and a little more and a little more and the next thing you know uh it's within a year or two it's going to be a million dollar uh you know bogey in in this whole thing I don't know what the number is but you get my point so I I'm with Karen on this one I I would like to see at least some at least getting back to to the Level Playing Field of last year I mean that would be a step in the right direction not a continued escalation so I I I just can't I'll leave it at this I just can't support in the formula it it's it's it's a bridge too far for me thank you Al um Duncan go ahead I I guess uh you know again I'm kind of a newbie here but you know I guess I'm a little frustrated I mean what is the school department supposed to do with you know the the real the real things that are pushing this over uh or their budget over is you know State mandated you know special ed stuff and so I mean you know we can talk about the split and all that stuff but what are they supposed to do I mean what's their what what's their recourse right well unfortunate that it it's that's an extremely difficult question right I mean we can't answer that but it's an unfortunate thing for the entire town be it just can't get funded by the revenue that the town has and so it they there has to be an adjustments the town didn't get the override for additional revenue and I and I get that but I mean is there's no other options there's no other sources of revenue grants something to help school budget yeah I just uh I I I'm in that school three day three days a week as a substitute teacher and uh you know I'd have a hard time explaining to those kids that that's the [Music] situation Gary go ahead you've got your hand up Gary you're on mute you're mute if you're trying to talk now you now you're okay Gary oh okay so you know the most disheartening thing of us hope is the process you know we're given a unbalanced budget every single year it's unbalanced using free cash and kicking the can down the road five years that's an unbalanced budget and shame on the board of selectman for doing this every single year they do it and they leave it up to us to now say well we're going to make Cuts or or no we can't use free cash this is this Bal this has been on balance for years and and we go back and forth and why do you think that override fails this town is because here we are the last minute making adjustments out of free cash so the public sees this and says well it's a Band-Aid approach and then there's other members that say well you know what we'll deal with it next year this is a big problem because as I said a few a month ago once we run out of free cash what are the schools going to do and and we can't just keep saying well we'll worry about that for years down the road because that's that's un that's irresponsible not only from The Bard of selectman but for us to continue to want to accept that and I in 12 years is the first budget I'm not voting on and I'm not going to vote Yes and in in the view of the public we always manage to make it work and that's why the override doesn't pass because it's like see they didn't really need the money because there were no Cuts really made I will I will honestly say right here I still have never ever ever gotten a list from the school department as to what adjustments were made in last year's Budget on a line byline basis due to lack of funding were their teachers cut were their teacher aids cut were their programs cut I have no idea we have asked for it many many many times and never received it we've heard verbal verbal accounts of what has happened and students come and students go and I get that it's a challenging position for them I totally understand that but if we keep feeding it nothing changes and the and the public enjoys the school system which is great but it comes at a great cost it comes at a huge cost and as Gary said one of these days the music's gonna stop and boy is that going to be a big big problem because now you're not going to get $672,000 you're probably going to get even a lot less than that [Applause] there was years in the past where the town certified negative Free Cash correct so what happens in the situation where we don't have the that that last bucket of money is no longer there that but this is not Forward Thinking and for us to go out for another override in a year or two that's embarrassing in my opinion because you know you know it's not gonna pass because this is the this is what we we we play the same game over and over and over again and unfortunately I was I became a member you know of this committee not to not to not to be you know concerned and not that I say I'm not concerned but concerned about each department we have to be concerned about the residents and I think that's what as far as I'm concerned that's the reason why I serve right and I'm not knocking the school system at all they they have their challenges they have they have their mandates I'm not saying oh you know they're terrible and they don't how to manage a budget I understand but the public sees we still manage to make do why should they pay higher taxes we make do we're using the savings account every year do you look like also sees that we've been asking for extra police extra fire and no contribution to those departments so how do we continue to contribute to one Department substantially substantially and not give that same credit to other departments people see that I hear about it all the time ex the thing that we cannot have blinders anymore we can't keep saying that in five years it's going to get better it will not it not yeah Gary I think you just made a case for the override well we we we had we had a case for nobody wants to approve it I mean you know but I mean but you know again I I I watched this happen in the town of Westwood you know and and you know the town voted to you know to support the school support the library support you know the residents by you know increasing home values increasing you know the services that the town provided and so you know we've got a block of Voters in this town that is not interested in that and so you know that's the issue you know that's the issue in a nutshell I mean we can we can talk all day long about how we squeeze blood out of a rock here and and and make do but you know we're not addressing the issue T increasing land values changes nothing two and a half% m mandates the maximum of the money rate nothing to do with valuations that just changes it around two points one is I agree with the not change the formula approach Etc and answering again I don't picking you dunan but you say what do you say to the kids and so forth we don't have the money they're supposed to learn that in their families Etc there's only so much money to go around it has to be allocated and when you've allocated all of it there are Money Trees Etc and that's unfortunate but it's reality and everybody's saying we need to do something about reality so my thought would be a no change of the formula and B try to find out I think we start with Karen may have in mind what a figure that we would be willing to accept would be right thank you Hugh Michelle go ahead and then um I'd love to hear from Christopher and Zach uh because we haven't heard from you thank you um I I I I totally understand the formula and not wanting to change that and 652 th000 seems a lot of money coming from free cash and I totally get that and I guess my thought is between from being on the school Comm and first I want to say though to you know that there were no Cuts made um there were there were programs that didn't happen there were that were caught there were also principles one principal running two different schools so um I we've never got the list Michelle we've never I understand I understand that I I get it I understand what you're saying and I'm not you know I'm just saying that there were Cuts done or things that were in the budget that ended up having uh not to be funded as you would say in the budget because there wasn't enough money and while I understand there isn't enough money we all understand that with the rising costs and I think so when you have when you end up this year saying okay we're going to have a principal for two schools or we're going to cut te we're going to do that but that that's fine you don't fund that you don't have the money there's no money treat but what happens when you get these State mandated items there H the money has to come from somewhere when it's not there they don't have that Cho they don't have the choice to say well I'm just not gonna hire another TA or I'm not I'm just not going to hire another principal because I have to pay this bed so I guess I'm just try and again I don't have the answer but I I and I understand not wanting to change the formula but we've seen the rising costs throughout the entire budget and all departments so what is the answer to take all of that into consideration because to Gary's point this doesn't work we keep you know the cam just keeps on getting kicked down the road and somebody else will have to deal with that so what is the answer and I think the fiveyear plan that Karen started at the beginning of this Pro uh process and wanted that to be I think that makes a whole lot of sense because if you can you know you average this is what the cost has been increasing every year you can kind of plan for that but it's not just that there isn't enough money it's this that these this special education or these Transportation where you have to you have to pay for that somehow some way so what is the answer and I'm not saying I have it and I don't expect anybody to come up with that right now but it's not just that we're not going to hire another teacher or we're not going to offer that program it's other items that there are there's no choice but to pay for that thank you Michelle um before Hugh you speak again I'd love to hear from Christopher or Zach because we have not heard from either of them so yes I um I want to start out by highlighting what Michelle just said and what uh what Duncan Mr law said earlier as well the issues with uh the special education issues alone uh and the unfunded mandates these are coming from the state and I agree that this cannot continue to be kicked down uh Kick the Can down the road we it is unsustainable unfortunately the solutions are going to have to come from the state level and when it comes to the the increase in in special education uh funds A loone this this problem is going to get infinitely worse it is clearly on a trend where it is going to continue to get worse and worse so there is kind of a a there has to be a moment where you know a school committee or is going to throw up their hands and say I don't know what more you know can be done to cut um I think we're if if we're not there we're very close to that that being said I completely understand and agree with with the precedent being set to change the formula being a a uh I agree with that being not the best route to take uh so I I would I would certainly support keeping the formula as as it has been in in the past and using the free cash in this in this instance but again the solutions unfortunately are going to have to come from uh beyond our ability as as a town a finance committee or a school committee it's going to have to come from the state level thanks Christopher um Zach do you have anything to add yeah sure and um my notes are a little scattered so okay bear with me um we did meet with the school a few times to try to come up with a an idea of what would happen you know if the split wasn't changed and you know the the issue we've been having with free cash um there was also the potential for source of Revenue um by renting space at UMass Dartmouth I mean space for UMass Dartmouth at the old high school um I think that wasn't explored or exploited as much as it could have been and I thought there was a really good opportunity there um even if it would offset some of the cost that the town has been spending on just the what is it roughly $150,000 a year just to upkeep that building um we we didn't explore that option I think during that time the other idea that came up was that we get rid of prek that at some point we didn't have prek and there's there's money in that um that could kind of offset or or handle the issue of not having much money in there that was mentioned once and really not explored further to see the ramifications um and then it kind of came back to us because we we met with members of the select board and the school committee all together to kind of discuss this not once did we get into detail about adjusting the split when all was said and done the revenue option just had fizzled out um the prek option was never explored in further detail and then they proposed to change the split that they didn't bring up at all in our prior meetings um I'm on the side that we have to vote against the split because the chance of it the potential of its permanence and and not knowing if that could be changed and and the other impacts it has towards the other departments I think that like Karen had mentioned the only other option if we vote against that split is to make up some of this deficit in free cash which I think would be a better solution than potentially putting that in permanence and I think there are another Avenue or two that we could look at to offset what we would have to provide in free cash if we didn't do the split such as article 27 and article 44 um article 44 being the Master Clock money that's left over that the later article 45 votes to put towards a special Capital the special ed capitalization fund and then I think article 27 was the appropriation for the parking lot which I think we already voted on last week but I'm just trying to get creative and think here how else can we offset some of this deficit if we vote against the change in the split which it seems the consensus of the group so far because I think it's important to not only make a stand and vote against what we think is going to hurt the town in the long run but as a finance committee we kind of have to come up with a solution or some creative ideas to so I think it's important to spend some time on that um I think Karen you alluded to one by by saying let's not do the split let's make it free cash where else could we kind of offset this and and chip away kind of the small uh sharp many small axes you know big tree y thanks so just to be clear so if if the committee as a whole right wanted to keep the number at 52,000 which is the same number from the select board it is very easy we there's nothing that changes in the budget so it's just all coming from free cash versus the split so there's nothing it nothing changes in the budget we don't have to look for more Revenue it it it really cash is fungible we're just using the free cash to pay off the debt and using I well I'm sorry we're using the re that Revenue piece to pay off the debt so nothing Chang changes so it sounds as though if we were to pursue keeping the same number as 652 it sounds as though this General consensus to make it called all free cash and not the revenue split so I think that's what I'm hearing if the number were to be at 652 Madam chairman I suggest we can do this in two pieces yeah number one I will move that we maintain the present alloc percentage wise that does not mean and then we I suggest we continue talking about the number s number I agree with it's a matter of not adopting a new Revenue sharing approach for all the reasons we've been talking about before before we do that I I just want to address something else that Zach said directly uh in in reference to some of those articles um and using the how that cash is applied some of those articles there are restrictions if those were Capital expenses when the article was initially appropriated whether it be two years ago or 20 years ago if it was for a capital purpose um Nicole was on the phone ear oh yeah Nicole's here it would have to be applied for a capital purpose again for the same Department more or less so you there there are limitations when we're taking money from an old article and applying it to a new article or for a new uh expense so we would just have to be careful how how we use those expenses we couldn't use it for any kind of operating money but if the school is getting x amount of free cash right and those two items have to do with the school could that be then put like could it could it come out of a recommendation that that be put towards the school then therefore that would open it up on the other side or maybe on just misunderstanding well I think it I think it wouldn't identify it as a capital expense so I think that's where the limitations come is how they're how they're using the money from an old article um Nicole are you there can we um can I just ask sure sorry maybe maybe we don't want to go too far down this road right now okay right okay we we'll stick with there's a motion on the floor there's a motion let's stick with our budget I appreciate Cindy's contribution and I wanted also to say that as far as Chris is forget about the state the state's not going to do anything for us the state at the moment is talking about a billion dollar deficit the state is using any money they have for Biden illegals Etc things isn't gonna do anything for us in the near future we're our own as far as this goes and the only answer as far as the money is concerned I share all the problems the school they're doing the best they can but we don't have the money it happens everywhere you don't have the money you the best intentions in the world you still don't have the money and it may be painful things it may be increasing the the account of pupils in a classroom it may be this it may be that pre and so forth was a very good point I think Zach made when I was young many many years ago there wasn't any paay for by the town or whatever people paid for their own now I'm not recommending it I'm just saying there are painful things that could be done and that the person who pulls the trigger should has to be the school committee in terms of what they think is the most important and what is the least it's all painful but the least painful to cut to get to where the money is I'm going to Second Use motion that's on the floor thank you to keep the to keep the formula the same thank you um so there's three hands that are up and uh I want to give you the courtesy of of I don't know if you need to keep your hand up at the moment or if you're willing to vote on the motion on the floor if your hand is still up I will are we talking are we talking about um revenues here so what so what the motion is on the floor right now Gary is that we we're not we haven't decided on the number for the school but but we are the motion on the floor is to maintain the same 54% split that we have traditionally done and not change that so in other words if the number were ended up to be the same 652 th000 it would then all come out of free cash and not partly come out of the split so are we taking a separate vote on whether or not we want to take it out of free cash yes that'll be a different vote Yes the number will be a different vote so this motion again is to maintain the split the regular Revenue sharing 54% Split Second okay so we we've any other discussion on it so I think we can move to a roll call um Hugh Hugh Mort I Gary Gary yes thank you Christopher Christopher Thrasher i l Al I Cindy Cindy Brown I Michelle Michelle Alando I Zachary Zach Brew I Duncan Duncan l i and Karen Ral I thank you for that Hugh that was very helpful to kind of do that first okay so now the second the second element of that is the dollar amount that would come from free cash would then need to be discussed um Gary do you still have your hand up from before okay go this is more of a question I think that I've had for quite some time uh this building the high school building correct is costing us $150,000 a year pretty much to be in there to maintain I don't know how many people are in it um you know what's what's the long-term solution for this because I recommend that they knock it down and they build housing which would be permanent Revenue to the town and I would have more of a I would be able I would be more feel more at ease to say you know what we're going to generate another $300,000 or $400,000 in in Revenue a year uh tax revenue okay it's going to go to the general fund but I feel more comfortable that there's an increase in Revenue maybe we can do a little bit more cost sharing for the schools but what what is the plan for the school it it's just sitting there costing us hundreds of thousands of dollars a year now 600,000 or ever since the school's been closed are we looking to build a new building are we looking to tear it down uh what's the long-term approach for this yeah so those great question one second Christopher that's a great question and I think that could be a two-hour conversation and um it's not going to be solved tonight and it doesn't affect the budget as it is right now um so I would defer that question if we have time later tonight I'd be happy to talk about it more but I have a feeling by the time we finish this and start talking about water and sewer and Zoning we're gonna be um we're gonna be maxed out um so again first we need to get the all our articles recommended tonight so it's a great question Gary and I would love to hear um Christopher's response to that but I'd like to defer that question if we could okay but it's a great question we all have open ears to want to hear the answer to that um go ahead um Al you're muted Al there you go it's it's a question slash comment about free cash which as most of you know at this point drives me insane but that's here and there that's that's not the the point my understanding is that free cash comes from a a a budget surplus from departments within the town against what they spend and that amount of money goes into free cash which is and years ago when we had the override committee I I took 15 years of annual reports and I I did a long spreadsheet and to be honest with you the only Department in the town except for one year back in the early maybe shut your video down Al because maybe that will help your bandwidth okay is that is that better yeah yeah we lost your anual report I don't know yeah I don't know where my rant began or end but but I what I was saying is in a nutshell is that every town Department gives back money every year budgeting as we know is not a precise process you know you budget you hope things change they go up they go down but money goes back from those departments into the town budget which becomes free cash the only the only which is 54% of the entire town budget that only one year in the last 15 years say given back and it was $54,000 out of a $22 million budget was the school department so the mon what's that I don't think that's accurate Al Police Department others are giving back money no I think I think you missed his word I think you missed his word he said they're the only ones that did not give back oh I'm sorry yeah they're the only ones that did not so so the free cash that we we're we're shifting around and yes money is fungible or whatever back to the school department is the only Department that basically has never given money back to the town so I just want to lay that on the table just help what you say is accurate but there's more to it free cash is also we allocate based on an an estimate of revenues and that is the amount that goes into these budget Etc to the extent we receive more money than the estimate and allocated that ends up being free cash as well fair fair enough I'll give you I'll give you that here but but I I think from a sacrificial standpoint there are a lot of departments within the town and there are a lot of services that the taxpayers of the Town um should be being rewarded for that are not because they're giving budget money back to the town the that's a matter I think that's a matter of department heads trying to be responsible to the town Etc squeezing the nickel to save money to give back for just these reasons not a matter of so much not spending because they have reasons but they want to give it back well I'll be honest with you you and I'll leave it at this if I if I were for example the fire chief or police chief I wouldn't give back a penny to the town I'd use it all to to bring back the CS that that that need to be there or the or the I think the answer I could speak with reference to the police department in the past first the amounts involved aren't big enough to do things like hire new people Etc and so it's a question of trying to save be as efficient as you can right all right so I'd like us to keep moving yep um the C the theory of free cash is great but we need to vote on a budget tonight um um so um the second part is how much free cash right so in my view for my personally view I would vote I will vote no on any budget that has 652 th000 in there I would vote Yes on any budget that had 400,000 in there in accordance with the plan um I could possibly be convinced to do 500,000 which is the same amount as last year I would say no to anything over 500,000 that's where I'm at as always I'm ready to make a comment and I'll wait my turn if others are interested you you go ahead Al uh go ahead Hugh sorry I just gonna say I I think this is sort of a matter of principle much as anything I mean again we know all this stuff is painful for the Departments involved I don't mean to sound as if being Cavalier about the the school committee just wave their hand and make things balanced having said that I think the cut is necessary and trying to be as generous as we can be I would go with a 500 figure do you want to make that a motion and Hugh let me let me agree with you go around see others com others either before or after I will move to make it 500 for discussion people can say what they want I would second that thank you second second that too let's do it thank you and just to um I'm you know I may seem cold on this but I am very sympathetic to the budget and I feel horrible and I don't sleep at night because of this and um but but I think we need to move in the direction of controlling this and just not continuing to make this worse because next year will be worse so okay so we have a motion on the table in a second for 500,000 does anyone else have any discussions on this or do we want to move to a roll call let's move let's go all right let's do it okay you you're more than I Gary Gary no Christopher Christopher Thrasher no l Al's I Cindy Cindy Brown I Michelle you're on mute sorry Michelle orando no Zachary Zack Le breu I Duncan Hing law I and Karen R's I how do do I missed I lost count how many NOS do we have here three we have three NOS okay uh okay all right what does that mean okay so I guess putting that in the budget free up 152,000 of free cash that's not needed for the operating budget which then becomes available to the free cash to then put in other places um okay go ahead Zach and this is maybe just for my own clarification did you see Nicole's response when when it came up to what article money could be repurposed as in the comments oh I didn't look but uh we can only repurpose okay so therefore I'm just curious article 27 and article 44 if along with the situation we're at I mean there's potentially $96,000 there is that at all in part of our recommendation if can we make a recommendation on the the budget line item but also include and and remind people that if we were to vote to put that towards free cash it would help us out it shows up in next year's free cash next year's okay yeah it it has to go through the system to next year right kind of irrelevant thank you yeah okay okay so in terms of this budget so the the budget that was sent to everyone with the fincom um numbers in there so um we can finalize it sounds like I don't think there's anything else so we would reduce the need for free cash by 152,000 on the revenue side and then we would reduce the school number by 152 ,000 everything else stays balanced um okay okay so all right thank you Nicole Nicole's gonna go thank you for coming okay so um anything else on the budget if not then we can approve the budget as a whole so it's the same budget that was sent earlier and and then a after after tomorrow I'll redo the numbers and I'll send it off to everyone I can't do it uh while I'm on my laptop now but it would reduce the revenue it would reduce the free cash by 152,000 and it reduce the school number by 152,000 okay so um Can can we get a motion to approve the budget as a whole subject to those two that change the changes that we voted on do you need a number do you need an exact number um yeah do we know if it was 652 it wouldn't hurt would it2 125 so 152 125 is our reduction in both the school expense and the free cash okay so if I can entertain a motion that would oh do you have the number though 152 125 oh no for the total budget you don't want to do a number for article four as a whole total number oh I'd have to I need to sit there and calculate that out all right that's what has to be done tonight I can do this tomorrow and I'll send I'll I'll send Jim the our our Rev budget and then he and I can kind of work through the article to make sure and with Nicole as well um so they'll they'll take care of that okay so we can vote on it in total right subject to our changes right yeah if we vote on the budget as a whole then um Nicole and Jim can fill in these numbers okay I'll make that motion that uh we uh make a recommendation to approve Article 4 the budget as as amended as amended no actually it's the same number right Karen it's the same number but a different source of Revenue so we're reducing the free cash number by 152 one 125 and then we're reducing the school expense number by 1521 125 okay second so we've got a a motion to second Gary do you have your hand up go ahead yeah this discussion yes okay uh yeah I again just to go back to a comment that I made earlier I will not support this budget because I feel that coming from the select board we've got unbalanced budgets and um you know tipping dipping into the piggy bank if you will and pushing this down the road five years is doing an injustice to the school department and and I completely support the schools I just do not support this process that will lead to an ultimate uh a department that's already hamstrung down the road so um it's nothing against the schools it's nothing against any other department but I'm voting no okay and but what would your suggestion to become a yes like what would I would suggest that the select board need to come up with a process with the schools to look at every single one of their line items and say okay I made a suggestion that if 80% of our budget is pay is payroll why don't we start a stabilization fund put this money in a stabilization fund so that we can address contractual issues and have the schools and every other department live within their budget a two and a half perc budget but that that went no way and I get it people are not in favor in some of the some of these circumstances but I think the conversation needs to startop with the with with the select board it's very easy to throw a budget back at us that is unbalanced and as much as we want to think it is it is unbalanced and it's been for a decade and this process will never straighten out and now it just what happens the schools are the ones that are going to be having an issue five years or four years down the road we hope we get free cash in the next four years and that's we don't even take consider inflation I mean these budgets are gonna are going to continue to escalate and and will $400,000 be okay next year will $300,000 be okay in fiscal 27 we have no idea I mean these numbers were just thrown out there so conversation needs to you know if we could wave a magic wand we shouldn't even be accepting a budget from the select board with a dollar in free cash to balance a budget but we don't have what do we do we throw it back to them and tell them okay figure it out no it's our problem yeah I mean I agree Gary I mean we we had three joint meetings and all our conversations were um we're the the fiveyear plan was to really go decrease 100,000 a year and I think we are all kind of and that's the best plan anybody could come up with and I was willing for that and then I wasn't willing when something changed as it did I mean we're all we're all here shaking our heads on this I mean we've been like this forever uh you know what's the solution we we get a budget from them that's unbalanced that's that's I suggest we're not g to solve that tonight we should move ahead and do something useful right and we and we won't solve it next year we won't solve it the year after and the year after that that's the reason why we're in this position that we're in we just keep saying we're never going to resolve it in this position how do we get out of we just keep accepting budgets that are that are that are not prudent that's what we do and that's the reason why I'm voting no that so all right thank you Gary all right so we have a motion in a second and I did while we were doing that I did come up to some numbers but I don't think we need to uh worry so we have a a motion and a second on the floor so any other discussion before before we move to a roll call no one's hands up okay so Hugh H Mor n Gary no Christopher I'm gonna vote no as well Christopher Thrasher [Music] no Al Al I Sydney Sydney Brown I Michelle Michelle Alanda I Zack Zack bro I thank you Duncan Duncan law I thank you and Karen r i thank you okay okay so give me one second I just want to calculate my numbers for one second take a break have a drink of water take a deep breath give me a second um because the we need to know the free cast number for future articles and I just want to make sure I got it since we did lose the town accountant Karen by the way in your calculation of the budget you have to increase it by 25,000 for the Animal control officer I did and I already had put that in our but thank you for the reminder yes I had already put that in the um in our side okay okay so uh thank you for that um all right so now let's move on to the rest of Financial articles before we do the other ones so the other Financial articles are Duncan could you put your your uh thing on Sor thank you so I'm dipping to the end here Karen we have the transfer articles did we go through those um we did not yet I was thinking we could talk about the school stabilization and then the free cash and then we can sit back while we're in the brain of free cash and everything okay um so article 40 [Music] three is the establishment of the special [Music] education stabilization fund then article 44 was looking to move some funds into that fund and then article 45 is the capital stabilization fund and then the stabilization fund so those are the four um that I think will kind of wrap up where we're at with the article with the um budget go ahead Hugh you're on mute I'm curious I just looked at those and it seems that we're moving what they do is move money from an A appropriation for a clock system into Educational Services I don't have the objection to it but it seems to contradict what we said a minute ago about Capital versus operating funds it is and I think that's what Zach was referring to and that's what Nicole had responded to so Zach was way ahead of us her response her response actually you know is too used point it's too bad that Nicole had to leave her response is uh can only repur repurpose the article for another project or return it and let it fall to free cash so I would think a stabilization fund is a project but anyway that sounds like capital I don't mean to be obstructive here I don't care much about that just right what we're saying it's not a capitalizable expense having a special education fund a a capital stabilization fund is one thing you know if we used it for um article 45 but 43 and 44 I think uh could be suspect yes I agree with you you I guess that's for Jim isn't it well it' be for KP law I guess to determine whether or not that um that's appropriate yeah I'm not against doing I just don't as you say little questionable a better word I guess yeah well I think you know we can always we we can proceed and and make our recommendation assuming that it's legal um we're not the experts and then if if we find out tomorrow that it's not then we'll have to you know the select board themselves will have to modify the the article on Town floor if it's not appropriate so I'm not sure if you want motions at this point but if you do I would move to approve it the article subject to the ruling you're talking about well I think that we've got to do the one preceding first so first one right the first one is to actually establish so the first one is article 43 that would be to establish a special education Reserve fund um so first that would have to get established first before any funds could be moved into it and I would move to recommend that the theory we're creating a receptical second doesn't do any okay so we have a motion in second so I want to talk about this fund for for from my perspective as well so Zach has his hand up too okay great so um I'm in support of a special