##VIDEO ID:QTsTju3lbtw## space here spread out relax chill throw all our plans all over the place we're on they're switching it to uh welcome everybody to the regularly state of meeting of the Yarmouth Conservation Commission uh this is the meeting for Thursday August 15 2024 this is to formally advise that as required by General Law chapter 30A sections 18- 25 and pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 an act relative to extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency signed into law on June 16th 2021 as extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 the armouth Conservation Commission will hold a public meeting at the date and time noted above public is welcomed to attend the either in person or via the alternative Public Access provided on the notice of meeting available on the town of Yarmouth website again this is the Yarmouth Conservation Commission meeting for August 15 2024 our first order of business is a request for an determination of applicability Eduardo dza and fern mahard Mayer sorry if I made made a mistake there a 33 Deerfield Road proposed 16 by 24t Standalone garage and land subject to Coastal storm Flowage come one up to the table here and when you get organized just state your name for the record and then briefly describe what you'd like to do okay so you can introduce he's he's the contractor my name is Eduardo Souza I'm the contractor on this project and I'm Jean Bowen and I'm a permit coordinator so I'm helping them with the paperwork and you know doing the research and sort of facilitating the whole thing for them and the owners are here okay Mrs M and basically we're here about the two little detached garage they want to build at the rear of the property and it is in a you know subject to flooding that area so we are doing the um the request for determination and uh I think that it's not going to absolutely not going to negatively impact or result in any adverse effects to the property or the surrounding area and um we also have it will the whole list of things that you know so we don't have to do a notice of intent and uh we're not going to be really disturbing any land there it's it's a slab um there's not going to be any flood damage due to filling uh it advert it will not uh it's not going to pollute the ground area and will not have any effect on Wildlife or wildlife habitat and um I think that it's going to be okay to do it and hopefully you'll agree okay thank you very much any questions from the board uh just one um when we spoke to the uh to the petitioners they said they weren't going to put a driveway in and uh if they decide later to put a driveway in we would like it to be uh per perious so not a whe if it's gravel it's okay yeah yeah per but he said he's really using this as a place to store things so okay that's it okay any else Britney no questions thank you anybody in the audience have any comments questions on this one anybody on Zoom raise your hand digitally if not would somebody like to make a motion for a -2 moved second all those in favor I I opposed cares unanimously so negative determination is a good that's a positive thing for you it doesn't mean it means you have you don't have to do any more filing with with uh conservation you can go ahead and start working on your uh building permit thank you very much thank you very much thank you all right uh next order of business is a request to extend an order of conditions the first one is for SE 83-283 Point Smith Point Road as proposed renovation of garage guest house Hardscape and Landscape reconstruction of subject tank replacement in a buffer zone is there somebody here for this one there is no representative he made sure with me that there is no problems with this extension request the great Island homeowners association has a um no work allowed during the summer months so they W unable to complete the work on time I'm going to have you repeat that and I assume this is the first this is the first extension request and there there are no issues I did a site visit and um there's they just need a little bit more time to complete the house okay any questions from the board no all right um would somebody like to make a motion to extend for three years so moved they actually just requested two years sorry two years then still so moved okay second thank you all those in favor I opposed there is unanimously heavy I have another uh request to extend an order of conditions for se8 3- 2282 Anthony Fiola one Mala Road sea seaw wall fill tow stones and planting are Coastal Bank goer Zone to assault Marsh at land subject to Coastal storm Flowage velocity Zone uh anybody for this one either I didn't I didn't get in touch with them okay uh is this a first this is the first one as well or is this this is the first extension request for two years years um this project consisted of a sheet pile bulkhead being constructed um in the velocity flood zone with the addition of placement of toe Stones along the revetment wall once the surface had eroded enough there he is do you have any comments on fuel there Dan no I'm I'm comfortable for you guys are pretty straightforward request okay and you said two years if possible yeah I think that'll line up put the house redo so how long do you think before um the revetment stones are ready to go in I would say um you know probably in the spring I would think you know looking at it it's pretty scary the amount of erosion that's happened yeah there's not much left so either either um we'll come back and just go over the plan before we install but I would say either late this year or early next I have some better photos from this one nope that's all I got okay so any other comments or concerns anybody on the board we don't usually do this for extensions do we to you just I have a concern if I could raise it uh all right so I will let you do this so we we don't usually take public comment for extensions but come up to the microphone and state your name and your address uh my name is Cindy van dor I live at for Mala Road my only concern is um the length of time that this is going to take to get that abutment up because I have a big project right next to them and it's impacting my area greatly not having that you know cuz it's just a straight wall and it's just taking all the stone it's just all the sand is gone it's all Stone there and and waiting until the spring all the winter storms and everything else is just causing a lot of damage and I didn't know if anything could be done sooner than that well I don't think I compel was my only concern because this this wall has been up for a number of years now and it's just causing a lot of damage it's like a third impact on me and I'm just was curious if it could be something could be done as soon as possible I'll certainly alert the no the neighbor um you know um that that we can we may be able to accelerate the process so we'll we'll certainly take that to heart and see if we can get it in sooner there rather than later thank okay okay uh anybody else in the board uh okay if somebody would like to make a motion then to extend this for two years I will make it right is there a second second all those in favor I I opposed carries unanimously thank you very much for your time and just a reminder to the to the applicants that um on the planet does have the tow Stones being nourished with sand and planted with Beach Grass um just make sure he knows that that's on the plan because the last time I met with him he thought the planting was just the mitigation um just so just go over the plan with him a little absolutely we'll do and uh have duly noted thank you thank you all right uh next order of business is a request to amend an order of conditions for SE 83-283 Southshore Drive pumping station and Sewer installation for Wastewater proposed dewatering discharge into the ocean at three locations and uh Britney I just I want to make sure we we we don't have any we still don't have the natural heritage or DMF comment is that correct that's correct so we will have to at least continue for that understood okay thank you Mr chair I'm Mike Judy from CDM Smith U representing the town of Yarmouth um as you indicated we're seeking an amendment to an order of conditions that was issued last year for construction of a pumping station on Southshore Drive uh that pumping station is part of phase one of the town's uh comprehensive Wastewater management plan it's included in contract 3 um construction on that project started earlier this year contractor uh ran into issues in terms of being able to um effectively uh discharge uh the dewatering uh operation from his uh trench as he was installing pipe on Southshore Drive um working with Britany a number of times I came up with a few different locations uh to discharge um with essentially clean water that they're uh pumping out of the trench into a series of settling basins um because of the volume of the water that they had to pump um that wasn't an effective means of um handling their groundw discharges so um we've asked them to come up with a a different uh approach uh that would effectively uh eliminate any issues in terms of flooding neighbors or flooding the roadway way as was happening with the with what they implemented this past year um and coming up this season there'll be the actually even deeper sewers to be installed in the sore drive with obviously more groundwater to handle so the what they have proposed is um a series of three locations one at C viw beach one at Parker River Beach and one down South Middle Beach at judon way um to pump their discharges into a settling Basin and each each of those three locations depending on where they were working and to allow that uh discharge to flow out to the ocean so we receive some settling uh in the basins and then overflow into the into the ocean through a series of uh 12in pipes at each of the proposed locations as is shown there okay uh questions from the Ward are those pipes not going to be permanent there while the work is going on correct it's just temporary while they're while they're doing the work so it's highdensity polyethylene uh plastic pipe and how do people get around those pipes if they're walking the beach um they're 12-in pipe so presumably they could step over you know this work wouldn't start until sometime in September um obviously they're not allowed to work on Southshore Drive during the summertime so um it would be happening offseason for the most part they have as as indicated in the subid they have filed for a wm15 permit with d and is I think Britney indicated that hasn't come back yet they've also updated their storm water pollution prevention plan with EPA um but this is another piece of the puzzle that needs to get approval from the commission or an amended order to allow this to to go forward and will the when you have to dig deeper will they be still using those same three areas not a fourth area this is what they've proposed they they've looked at it and said this will get them what what they need correct in terms of handling the groundwater discharge from the Viewpoint of De they may come back and uh they would know if there are federal requirements do you know OFA um as I said they they had to file something with EPA anyway through their storm water pollution prevention plan and through the Construction general permit so if there were any issues they would have come down through EPA at that at that level I would assume so that included the where and how long this the same submitt they they sub submitted the contractor did that wasn't part of our of our work correct and so you'll go through the whole process again if you have to extend them if he needs additional locations then certainly he would uh length of getting it out oh in in terms of extending further yeah so you there was nobody that has made comments on the length of those pipes not that we're aware no not at this point there's also as Britney indicated there was a required submitt with natural heritage and a dangerous species program that's aill has been made Hello I'm joined by Maggie lofstead of our office as well um traffic and we haven't heard back from natural heritage cuz there it is a there is a habitat area presumably the piping plover along the beach obviously so assume there will be restrictions on time of year that he can do this as well are we actually had to do a separate like Misa uh review checklist filing because this is an amendment to the existing order of conditions so it's actually a separate filing entirely oh okay anybody else how long are these do you think these going to be in place do you have any idea how long it's going to take how many mons years at least at least through the uh through next spring I would say and then obviously come Memorial Day he would either be done or have to remove all of these facilities uh and then if he needed to come back the following year then okay it just depends on what he gets for production in terms of how quickly he can install the sewer but my understanding is he plans to hopefully have it done before for Memorial Day next year so they come in out I wasn't sure about that will um will the ocean flow be scoured and so how much I mean how are you preventing that from happening are they preventing it from happening yeah that's a good question um there is a detail that they've included there um he didn't look like he proposed any uh he has a 45 degree Bend as you can see I think it's detail B in the sub midle um the bottom of that detail it shows he has a 45° um bend on the pipe so that it's not laying directly on on the sand so it's shooting so it's shooting up okay I see that's his intent well that that'll be subtit title or at high tide it'll be subtitle subtitle right yeah yeah I think he supposed to he's proposing to put it by the low tide elevation and so do you have any information about the the volume of water that's going to be going through here and the velocity of the water to estimate if there's going to be any erosion issues or scour because just because it's at an angle if it's coming at a significant volume it would still have potential to to cause a Roan or scour of the ocean floor we can take a look what he because he had to file with this State yeah that you know like the basically it's the nipes that you file with the US EPA but the state reviews it which they typically don't it's not a reviewable permit so we can see what he included in that if he included any volumes and velocities I I didn't have I don't have that right now I think that would be valuable information because I think when we were there this winter just looking at the issue that water was they need to discharge a lot of water um to get those pipes down in there I'm just worried about the volume and the velocity when you're just coming in that scour protection or something at that yeah if there are any measures that you can include that would okay make the board feel better of course anybody else you have any idea how long the state it's a loaded question how long the state will take to comment I mean nhsp has 90 days heritage I'm sorry what did you say Britain for natural heritage or oh the Misa yeah so they we asked for expedited review but technically they have um 30 days so that would be until the 12th for I asked for expedited review because of the urgency so they're aware of the uh September 5th hearing and as far as the other permit at the wm15 um they should be hearing back on that uh anytime because I believe that's a 30-day from the filing so thank you no later than April certainly all right uh Britney anything else no that's all thank you anybody on the audience anybody on Zoom all right uh so if I could get a again we are going to have to continue this uh this is to the 5ifth we sixth Fifth Fifth right um so we need to continue to the 5th of September uh and so do I have a motion to continue to September 5th uh solely for receiving natural heritage and endangered species comment and comment from DMF SC ring should we answer will you be able to get that information to us this is part of it yes so moved second all right all those in favor I I opposed carries unanimously I'll good with that thank you very much thank you see you in a few minutes please just a few oops guess we could have done that right next couldn't we yeah made all right uh next order of business is a continued notice of intent for SE [Music] thank you br you're all set all set through the chair uh good evening um for the record my name is Brian Wall I'm an attorney with an office in sandwich and I'm here tonight on behalf of the applicant great Islands homeowners association and together with me is the Woods Hole group being represented represented tonight by Chris gloninger who's to my left and we also have Leslie Fields I believe on Zoom she couldn't be physically here but she's here and hoping to participate I also want to mention that um there are representatives from the association here um Cynthia Richards is here Malcolm Kent also will Patty the treasure me and Craig Fleming the caretaker so as the commission probably recalls we've been before you previously great Island Road was damaged in a storm back in December 18th 2023 the damage was significant so the applicant sought permission on an emergency basis to protect the road and restore the damaged areas the emergency work involved placing geotextile bags filled with sand in areas where the Dune was significantly compromised and where the road needed protection the second phase of the project involved placing sand over the bags to create a slope in front of the bags to mimic a dune the emergency certificate that was issued required a filing of an after theact notice of intent in order to obtain an order of conditions so the association working with Woods Hole group prepared and filed a notice of intent in April seeking after the fact of permission for the work that was performed formed when the D issued the file number uh it also transmitted some comments that were of concern to us specifically the comment said that the geotextile bags may be considered a Coastal Engineering structure and may not be able to be permitted on the Dune so we appeared in front of you on June 20th to ask for a continuance so that we could look into the matter and since then we did and what I have done um is done some research which I'd like to talk about with the commission shortly when I finish um Mr gloninger will go through a brief presentation about the merits and the substance of the project and if it's okay with the commission Mr Kent would like to say a couple of words on behalf of the association so regarding the dp's comment um the first thing that I did was I performed some research so one of the things that I have available to me is that when the DP handles what's called adjudicatory proceeding so if an applicant or an Agri party does not like a decision from the commission the the party can appeal to the DP for what's called a superseding order and if the party is AG grieved by that order you can go to a further process called an adjudicatory hearing where the DP actually holds kind of a mini trial and issues a decision about it and I have a database that I'm allowed and enable to research all the decisions from the DP and I tried to find if there's been any case on a geotextile bag and I came up empty I I could not find a single decision about that so what that tells me is is that the comments from the D are essentially an opinion it's not an official decision of the DP it's an opinion and so I also have an opinion on behalf of the association and I set that forth in a rather detailed letter which I'll just summarize briefly um here tonight whenever one starts to determine whether or not something is a Coastal Engineering structure you started the definition and the definition which is included in my letter says a Coastal Engineering structure means but is not limited to a Breakwater a bulkhead a groin a jetty a revetment a seaw wall a rip wrap Etc you have regulations where you've also defined that term and it's essentially identical to the state definition so when a definition defines a thing or an object by listing examples like this definition does when a court has to interpret that the court looks at the examples and interprets and applies the definition to those examples that are obviously expressly set forth in the definition but this one is not and so then when you get beyond that courts and interpret definitions that are defined by a list of items by saying is the thing at issue like the list or not like the list and if it's like the list that incorporates it and implies the definition and if it doesn't it doesn't and so in this particular instance I looked at the definition and in in practice before commissions we tend to use words like hard Solutions and soft Solutions those terms aren't necessarily set forth in the regulations but we we banter about and hard Solutions are things that are like the the definition a break water or a bulkhead bulkheads are made of steel or vinyl or wood a revetment is made of rock in this particular instance what we're talking about is a geotextile bag filled with sand it's non-structural by its definition and our contention is is that it's a more like a soft structure than a hard structure another distinguishing feature is Coastal engineer in structures tend to be permanent you know you build a rip wrap or a jetty or a a um a seaw wall and it's intended to stay there permanently whereas soft Solutions are intended to address the erosion problem but kind of go away over time and examples of that would be like a Corey fiber roll array or a Corey envelope and the bags in this particular instance are very much like that they're there they're not meant to be permanent in fact the notice of intent is specifically asking for temporary permission part of our application is is that we're seeking to do after the fact approval for these bags so that they can stay there from 1 to 5 years so that the association can develop a long-term solution about what to do about the road and and Mr gloninger can talk about that further so essentially what it kind of comes down to is that the bags in our opinion are like a soft solution they're temporary in nature and also critical is that the sloped stand in front of them mimics a dune so it's very unlike a hard bulkhead or a revetment which is intended to break up the the water and finally um i' just like to under the category of other considerations I think it's important that the commission review this application in its context this is an after Thea application for something that's already there that was lawfully permitted under an emergency certificate and so if the commission which I hope it's not going to do decides to go with the D's opinion rather than ours we have to look at the fact that the bags will have to be removed and that in and of itself will be very disruptive whereas what we're asking for is temporary permission to keep the bags there until we can come up with a permanent solution so again I would ask you that you look at it from a temporary perspective and just to underscore the temporary nature of our application we also think the commission if it has any concerns about it can address those concerns through conditions so for example one of the conditions and they're outlined in my letter and Chris is going to talk about them too is that the bags can be monitored regularly they can be specifically monitored after a storm if they break up there can be a condition that says no new geotextile bags will be installed so that the commission can be assured of itself that this is a temporary solution in a summary um I think that if you look at the way that I've analyzed it I think the board can be very comfortable deciding that this is not a Coastal Engineering structure and can be permitted um through this process and having said that I'm available for questions but I'd like to turn it over now to Chris um to go through the merits of the application thank you Brian Commissioners Mr chairman Britney uh thank you for your time and I can't believe it's been been nearly 6 months since we saw you uh since I saw you last I know that you've seen our team since then but the bags essentially did their job after we met there were two sister sa Easter storms that tested the stretch of Shoreline adjacent to the road and the road remained intact and when I went to survey that stretch with former Captain Huck before his retirement uh he had big concerns about the condition of the road following thec M storm and his Department being able to respond to that that an emergency if one were have occurred on the island so just to recap uh the work that we did I won't belabor this we'll get to the point and and what we're looking uh and charting a path forward but the work that we did was largely Northeast of the S curve about 810 ft we tried to find the areas where there was natural protection so we could avoid using the uh one cubic yard um sandbags where possible and you might remember that we tried a fairly exhaustive search to find natural alternatives to the bags at the time but there was a big backlog in Supply um but we'll go over that in a second what we have hopefully for a plan going forward south of the S curve a little bit closer to the roadway we had 110 ft of um section that was very vulnerable uh and the big concern was the only access road for not just the residents but for First Responders uh in the event of a uh medical or fire emergency so let me try to get to the next um these were pictures before the bags were implemented of the scarp anywhere from three to as much as 4 feet uh a little bit difficult here but if you can see the mouse the roadway is here um so those two twin s easers the following week would have likely eroded to or maybe pass that roadway me see here um so the emergency work included a total of 350 cubic yard bags filled with sand covered with sand mimicking as Brian mentioned the natural Dune um the compatible sand was also filled uh was used as fill for the bags uh and any displaced bags thankfully there weren't we had a plan a contingency plan and we were doing our due diligence to make sure that any bags would be removed any damag bags would be removed all bags were linked together to make sure as another fa safe that the bags would not deteriorate and break apart leaving plastic elements either into the ocean environment on the or the marsh behind uh those protective measures worked the bags are intact to this day and um that is excellent news that that the environmental um precautions um worked out uh an aerial aerial view of the sections that we worked in this is the northern section the much smaller Southern section again there are some natural more natural protections here some larger Boulders that are near that southern area we weren't protecting it against flooding we were protecting it and it's an important point to make we were protecting it against erosion and losing the roadway we anticipated that the road would flood which it did do but there was no damage Left Behind from those storms as long as the bags are in place when it comes to permanent impacts you're looking looking at uh 26,6 Square ft but once the bags are removed then those permanent impacts uh are no longer an issue um and natural heritage had no take uh and they made the recommendation that they would restrict the time of work on this site um with no work happening between March 1st and August 31st so that was um that was their um take when they uh gave us their response to our noi so the Alternatives that we're looking at and looked at at the time was do nothing which again would have lost could have potentially lost the road with erosion with those two more storms uh the due nourishment would have just uh likely ended up with a lot of sand ending back up into the ocean environment instead the sandbags have held and maintained a large volume of sand instead of it going back out into the ocean which would then reduce the amount of truck traffic to and from in renourishing uh after uh subsequent storms again the geotextile bags are covered with sand and the idea is moving forward we would have a solution in place we would stockpile a natural alternative so if a bag fails it would not be replaced with another geotextile bag the bag would be replaced with the natural alternative and the damag bag would be removed so I just wanted to to stress that as well going forward and this is the last slide um what we're proposing um the recommended conditions are monitoring and kind of beefing up the amount of what we do out there uh inspect the storms with photos that we could to the commission within 2 days of the storm keeping the sandbags covered with that amount of sand the 290 cubic yards of beach compatible sand twice annually to make sure that the bags are covered up to prevent any UV degradation the nourishment would occur between March 1st and August 31st again the bags would be removed if they were damaged replaced by a natural alternative the replaced sandbags again uh we would not allow any new additional geotextile bags in their place we mentioned the study that was the big part of our presentation on January 5th it has been complex it's been uh a very detailed process in trying to find the be best path forward for an important part of the Yarmouth Community um so our short range plan would be to work on another perhaps notice of intent that would allow us to almost have a Playbook going forward that would stockpile compatible sand stockpile natural alternatives so when new vulnerabilities open up we would be able to implement those in the event of another Coastal storm like we saw last winter uh as a meteorologist this winter pattern we're not able to tell the number of storms where the storms will hit but we know patterns and the pattern is exactly similar to what we had last year which is conducive to storms with a predominantly southeasterly flow the intermediate to long range plan is finding protection against high tide flooding and low energy storms that produce erosion related issues the things that we are looking at are including are include raising sections of roadway retreating sections of roadway and replacing the bridge that we currently have in place the chairman mentioned uh the bags would probably settle and they have settled into the scarp and what we fear is um undermining the protection that we've seen for the last 6 months uh they've established themselves quite nicely as that added protection along the scarp uh and it is our intent in this short term to keep them covered again with that compatible stand the permitting will take time the design will take time to get a consensus on What alternative that the association picks going forward will take time but that we are working very hard with the homeowners association to find their best path forward and we just need some time this is not a permanent fix this is not a Band-Aid on a bigger issue this is just temporary thank you for your time good evening uh is this on my name is Malcolm Kent I'm a great Island resident and an association board member and I've been working closely with Woods Hole group to uh on this resiliency feasibility study maybe actually if you could pick it up sure and um so you've heard the the legal and Technical you still can you still hear me yeah I think if you hold it pick it up yeah if you could okay sorry get a little shorter uh the legal and the technical aspects of our submission and you'll appreciate how difficult a situation we've found ourselves in uh and we're taking it very seriously and we're doing all we can to deal with it in the most efficient way with the minimum of disruption to the environment and the bags have worked really well as Chris said they've protected our access to the isand through several storms and so we sincerely hope you will allow us to keep them as a temporary condition with all the conditions of monitoring that we've that we've suggested and help us as we develop a more permanent solution thank you that's our presentation if we have any questions we're available would you like to go first we're out there on Monday right yeah and um you mentioned a couple things that I just just uh a little confused about and so bear with me um first of all you mentioned that they're covered but that there was a section if I remember correctly of uncovered bags you just could see the whole bag would sand in it I don't know if we have a picture of that or not yeah like that um certainly I don't count that as covered backs no but with the natural heritage guidelines we can't get back out and nourish until the deadline is passed so your your intent is to go out and do that as it looks further down the road correct okay that's question one question two and bear with me um in one part of your P your letter you wrote uh it remained in place approximately two years and in another part you said and you verbally said uh attorney wall one to five years so which one is it two years or one to five years uh without being factious it's a moving Target because the scope of the long-term solution continues to kind of grow and so the we made the initial ask and I think that we're now thinking it might take a little bit longer okay so I I know this isn't part of what happened but I've been we've been out there as a commission since before Britney came on with various issues um it just seems like it's taking a long time to come up with a permanent um plan that has been going on for well I've been on the commission now I know five years so it's got to be five years um so I just a little bit uh put off to be honest with you that's taking so long to come up I think your three possibilities and I can't think of any others but uh are there but somewhere I think you know we need to see a plan um at least I need to see a plan I'll speak for myself um okay commissioner I I think that we'll be ready to show um some of those plans we are in the final stages of our report and our analysis as I said uh collecting the data that we've had to go through has taken a team effort of all of wood's whole group uh even people that weren't originally part of this project because it is so in incredibly complex um so just to so you are aware the answers to that question will be coming uh soon and we will be able to provide those designs and those plans and the path forward if I could add to that Mr Bernstein um so my involvement is much more recent I can't speak to what happened before but what I can tell you is since I was retained I think I was retained in the spring april-ish or May the people that I'm working with many of whom are here tonight are are taking this very seriously they've committed the funds they've hired an excellent consulting firm to go forward um they are doing everything that they can to move forward I would also just simply add too that the association represents 43 different property owners that we have to keep informed and the long-term solutions that we're talking about are going to cost in the millions of dollars so I I do appreciate your comment I do but I would just suggest to you that at least with my involvement they're going forward full steam ahead okay um uh this is my confusion on the page two you have a sentence de transmitted the file number all that stuff that sanfi geotextile bags are considered Coastal Engineering structures and then you have the analysis Coastal Engineering structures means but not limited to and a list right I'm really confused this is me uh but how can geotextile textile bags cons be considered engineering Coastal Engineering structures and then you're saying it's I'm just confused by the two sentences so it sounds it sounds like it should say they're not cons Ed to be Coastal Engineering well and that's why I wrote the big letter so so what happens when the a notice of intent is filed with you a copy is simultaneously filed with the D and years ago they simply um issued a file number I don't think they even really looked at the file but in with going back a few years now they've started to conduct a preliminary review and it's not unusual for them to have a few comments here and there and so the quote at the top of my page is from the comments the D wrote on the transmitt of the file number and whoever reviewed it raised the issue and said that these bags are considered Coastal Engineering structures and that it appears that they don't meet the performance standards that's why we asked for the continuance the last time because we were surprised by that and what I've quoted Below in the further part of the page the stuff that's in italics the language that's in italics that is the definition in the state regulations and the one below that is the definition in your bylaw your town regulations and my argument to the commission is is that if you look at the definition geotextile bags do not appear so if they were there clearly we couldn't argue that the bags were not a structure but they're not there and this is what I gave my presentation on when a court is called on to interpret an interpretation a definition that the definition is a list of terms rather than you know if you go to let's say the zoning bylaw and you look up at the word structure it will say something like a man-made assemblage of items that are have a fixed point on the ground you know there'll be a definition and then you can say well is that a structure or is that not a structure here the definition of Coastal Engineering structure it's defined by examples and so when a court has to look at that the court looks at the examples and says well the thing that I have to determine whether it's in or out of the definition is it like the terms or not like the terms and our contention is is as I said a Coastal Engineering structure all the examples are hard structures that break up waves that are meant to be permanent and our contention is our solution is much more soft and I got into a few details for example uh I think you probably have had it before you I've been involved in other projects in other towns with what's called a Corey fiber array and so that particular type of solution is a coconut filled netting that is um a fix to the ground with uh stakes and it's anchored into the bank with um these um helical metal anchors with cables that is deemed a soft solution and is not a Coastal Engineering structure in fact um Seth Wilkinson has a patent on it so that it can be used for as a soft solution and it's not a Coastal Engineering structure so my whole position here is simply that if you look at what the bag is it's a bag filled with sand it's not structural in nature it's not even anchored in like the Corey fiber rray roll which is not a structure and so Our intention is is that if you interpret that um definition with regard to what we're proposing I think you can permit it I I disagree with the D's um comment okay so when it says but not limited to that's tells me that there are other possibilities and I agree I'm not simply saying it's only those things listed what I'm saying is that when the definition when it the term is defined by a list of examples then we have to interpret that and we have to say is the thing being proposed like those examples or not like and I again I think if you look at those a Breakwater that's a rock Jetty a bulkhead that can be a steel or vinyl or pressure treated lumber um you know vertical wall in in the in the that breaks up water a groin is a stone structure a jetty a revetment we're talking about a sandfill bag and and again part of our presentation and it goes hand in hand we're not asking for this to be permanent we're asking for it to be temporary we're asking for conditions that says if any of the bags fail they're not to be replaced and eventually they will come out when the permanent solution comes along Brian I do want to jump in because I said that it was complex and I'm going to give just one example when you look at the problem and you see the sound right in front of the roadway you think that this is the issue but in bringing our team on one of the issues that has made this so incredibly complex is the vulnerability and flood pathways through Uncle Robert's Cove what was something that we thought was a problem a handful of times per year when it that road that section of roadways in in dated it has turned into dozens we put it in a a Overland flood gauge which allows us to show depth inundation frequency magnitude that definitely threw a curveball into this process which has made it more complex and has certainly kind of delayed the designs of our Alternatives okay um do you have any idea how the rate of um of degradation or how fast these these bags degrade has anybody ever done a study on that my my I'm not a scientist so I'm confess that right up front my understanding is the idea of covering them is to protect them from UV radiation so that they don't deteriorate okay but if they if they do get exposed um they can deteriorate either through UV or through wind um where they where they whip around but that's why what we're suggesting as far as conditions is a constant monitoring program in if any pieces of the bag do come loose that they be picked up immediately okay I'm also not a scientist but I did do a little research on the Google and the real real problems with degradation are in the South like in Florida where you have have a heavy U uh radiation more constantly than we have up here right okay that's it for me for now thank you so the geotextile bag is not supposed to break down as long as it's covered and if it's not supposed to break down then it seems to me like it's similar to a rock so I don't see how you can say I mean I get your opinion I guess my opinion would be to agree that a geot textile bag is in fact a Coastal Engineering structure it's designed what's the the purpose of a of a revetment uh the the purpose of a bulkhead is to absorb and deflect wave energy what is the purpose of these bags they're part of an erosion control structure erosion control meaning what to to prevent erosion of the road and well actually how are they but how are they doing that they're deflecting yeah they're doing the same job as a but so does a Corey fiber roll array those Cory fiber array breaks down and the geotextile bag does not and I I'm not going to argue that point because I think you're right about that I agree with you so again that's why I'm saying it goes back to the idea that then how how do you say it's not because our application is for temporary relief in other words we're telling you that these bags need to stay there for 1 to five years but they will come out as part of the permanent solution and so I think if you look at that you know if you combine those two things intellectually we can reach the point where they can be approved well I I tend not to I'm sort of I'm a little bit more skeptical about the one to five years I mean I I understand that's what you're saying and I understand there are there are uh complex uh patterns that go into into trying to figure all this out but at the same time five years ago 10 years ago we knew what had to be done it was one of those three solutions that you the long-term solutions that you put up and five years ago what had to be done were the same the same three long-term Solutions those were the three options and now we're here 5 years later and it's the same three and now you're telling me in 1 to 5 years that's what you're going to come up with you're going to have to look at one of those and decide one of those things let me clarify though there's nothing forcing you to do that well there you can put a condition on the permit that you're giving um because we have to come back with a certificate compliance and you could put a temporal limitation on this but also let me just clarify when we're talking about the one to five years that that we're talking about designing permitting and implementing and so we'll be back before you much sooner with a notice of intent so that you'll see what we're doing so it's not we're not asking for another five years to come back and say oh we need another five years and just one kind of comment of a personal nature um again not disputing that things should have been done sooner but I've lived here most of my life and I've never seen a South East storm in the winter like that last one I've had other clients too I have several clients and dentist involved with permitting and what it did my phone was ringing off the hook and I'm not an ER doctor I can't come running out and fix things but I had numerous clients call me with unprecedented um damage to the beach so people respond to crisis and that's happening now but we all due respect this the problem with that Thro happened before December of 2023 we were out there again a couple years ago where somebody had brought in rocks and uh and uh sand without our permission and that was a different type of storm so my guess is even though I know the storm was different I guess is it even in nor Easter it seems to be affecting the road yeah so it's definitely changing things all over the place but again I think we're here sorry respond to that was in December of 2022 I believe and uh a storm came in and eroded a great deal of the Dune and in that emergency situation uh sand was put on the beach without proper permission we came in and dealt with you right I'm not saying it wasn't dealt with but I'm say I'm not saying it wasn't dealt with I'm just saying that that was the first of the major storms that hit us and that was a s Easter also yeah then we piled then the next year the we got this much larger uh area that was eroded including the sand that had been put on in the previous thing so this is a situation that clearly is getting worse and worse it wasn't a that critical situation in our eyes even though we knew something needed to be done it suddenly has become very critical in the last few years and and we're hoping that the commission sees this and sees what we're doing and would help us um and see this as a transitional you know this is kind of a a bridge from point A to point B not a permanent solution and the next short range and hopefully the next noi we filo is that Playbook going forward that when the bags there is degradation or they're damaged they're not replaced with another geotextile bag they're replaced with a natural alternative and then we have a stockpile of those materials so if there's new vulnerabilities while we're in this selection phase permitting phase we can Implement those going forward so that is our next step and I think we all said this but Chris reminded me of that too you I think you said it in your opening when the emergency CT was applied for the intent was to do natural bags but we couldn't find them and and the commission did allow the Geotech style bags which we appreciate I'm not saying that you shouldn't have but we're kind of stuck where we are having invested a substantial amount of time and money and we're just simply asking that they be permitted after the fact for a period of time until we can come back with another notice of intent have you been out and found there are other kind of bags available now we are looking more at the quar rolls and and envelopes as an alternative to bags I mean we're thinking about the possibility of burlap bags but material obviously will kind of flush out a lot more in that case than with the quar rolls well the envelopes be able to be deployed in a similar way or they much bigger that's what we're trying to figure out with our team to design something going forward that makes sense and can be easily deployed and we could also kind of bring in in sections if one of those geotextile bags fails we could swap that out okay so if you found those you would be willing to swap those out particularly after they're exposed yeah absolutely that was our intention so if you get ask answer I have a couple of questions that confuse me first of all looking at the D definition of engineering structure versus what we have in our code uh we add erosion how do you think that impacts the definition or what you're trying to do so you certainly do add erosion whereas the state does not but all of the other um examples that are given in that definition are the same as the state that they're hard structures most erosion aren't hard are they no but but the the definition here does it it starts off almost the same as the state it says any bulkhead revetment seaw wall rip wrap Jetty intended to prevent and then you include in erosion but our whole argument is we don't get there because we're not a hard structure in the first instance were a soft structure I understand and the court is going only the only one that's going to really decide that the issue also goes up to where in the first par well second paragraph on that page two and um you talk about um what the D came back with these are considered Coastal Engineering structures and it appears that the project or proposed would not meet the perform performance standards for Coastal Dunes which aren't permanent structures so how do you worry about having a definition of structure when they themselves are not referring back to structures but to non-structural uh standards well I'm focusing on the Coastal Engineering structure comment our we believe that our presentation shows you that except for that argument that's in dispute the notice of intent meets the performance standards I guess I'm just thinking it's sort of going in circles well I'll further add to I I I don't agree that it's in circles because like I said um when you read the definition there's two parts to it and I'm focusing on the bylaw part now your your definition the first part talks again about examples any bulkhead revetment seaw wall rip wrap groin jetty or other structure intended which is the second part to prevent or alleviate storm damage tidal action wave action erosion I agree we're trying to prevent erosion but I don't agree that we're part of the hard structure to begin with um well one other thing too that I like to add I think I said it earlier too we think the bags are very similar to the Corey fiber array because the whole way the array is done is it's covered with sand and it's sloped and it's made to mimic the natural land form and that's what's Happening Here is the bags are to be covered and sloped to mimic a dune and that means that those bags could be there for a long long long time except that we're fully conceding that they won't be we're we're asking for a temporary permit in five years what kind of limit do we want to put on can I just say something about the biodegradable three of these bags they they're not and that's the difference with the Corey rolls we're quite familiar with them we permitted them for quite a few places around here and so you put them in you put your sand in and everything become or hopefully like will degrade and become like a sand dun you're just going to be pulling these out so whatever Sand Dune you've created or whatever you your slope you're just going to pull it out at that time how about putting some biodegradable bags now replacing these and then you've got uh what you're looking for and you won't be pulling them apart so two responses if you do even if you do it slowly and I want to finish what I'm saying a little bit um this would work I think it would it would work out with your situation if you put those in at this point it would it would at least tempor you give you that temporary time to come back with your Solutions and and you even talk about one of your solutions would be putting the biodegradable bags in that was one of yours for the of your long-term Solutions right so you're looking at at that type of bag to begin with I think you should come back with an idea of finding those bags because every time you you're talking about covering these uh with a a larger monitor of of um sand every twice a year right I mean it just it's not ending anything because because of because of the material the the Geo fabric so a couple of responses to that very very good points I think that when you look carefully at the Cory fiber role which is considered soft versus other hard Solutions it's not completely biodegradable they have the metal duck bill or helical anchor there's the cables we don't have any of those so I think what's keeping your bags together I heard you say that they're together so they won't move what keeps them together so they're tethered together by Hooks on the top the metal no they're the same geotextile fabric that make the hooks and then there's rope that ties them together as uh a fail safe in case they break apart but I do want to to bring up a point why we wouldn't be so open to just swapping it out right now because if there is a road realignment that takes place and that is the agreed upon scenario then you're putting unnecessary the quar logs and envelopes in areas where we might just be able to reestablish a natural alternative if the road is set back or raised to a certain elevation so that is what we're trying to figure out in the interim those sections of Shoreline that might not need any of that additional protection to try to limit it to whatever possibility that we can what are you looking at for right now just us to okay to leave those here for a temporary period of time yeah and and again I think that that's one of our our arguments to the bo one three years I don't think it's temporary it's already been since eight months or nine months or 10 months they've been there so one of the things that we're hoping that you would consider is the human factor that it cost a lot of money to put these bags in I understand it was intended originally to be burlap we couldn't find them so we're we're we are where we are in good faith lawfully and we're asking for your help to keep them there for a little bit longer while we develop this solution and maybe what you could do is if you could see fit to giving the permit put a schedule that says we have to come in with a notice of intent you know within a certain amount of time and we could provide you with what we think is a reasonable you know I don't want to set a goal that we can't meet but one that we could meet and we could come back to show you progress that we're going forward with a notice and and once we get that notice we can go forward with the work there will be other permits that will be needed as well but once we get all the permits we could go forward with the work but to commissioner um Frost's point we would replace the bags if one were to fail immediately with the natural solution so it's not like we're just filling up another that's what I said I said if they are exposed oh if they're exposed okay yeah I hope I said that you did well there also some issues here that you haven't gotten together yet about the Eel Grass monitoring and some things in the past for the this this situation um that was requested by DMF yeah so DMF included in their comments um an eelgrass monitoring plan in addition to a revation plan which wouldn't be feasible if we're going to be removing these bags temporarily so that's why I agree with commissioner mhar that the biodegradable bags would be able to establish something there that you would be able to plant into whereas there's no point of planting into these I'm sorry there are plants already growing on them it's really bizarre but all along there there are plants growing on this on the tops of the sandbags where there's no nothing in between no plastic plants have found their way and even some beach but also I think that we're talking about those the eelgrass monitoring plan wasn't that for the Fox Point huge beach nourishment that it was for this one as well it was for this one as well here's the DMF comment eelgrass this um eelgrass is sensitive and DMF recommends pre- and post construction monitoring plan they also requested a modeling estimates of offshore migration and transport of nourishment material to provide estimate of impacts potentially that would be introduced to the Nearshore Eel Grass beds so this kind of Segways to a question I have for the commission is this trying to assess where we are and is this a matter where you have enough information to act is this a matter where we should ask for a continuance to come back with some additional information to address your comments and concerns can you help us understand where where we are in the process I was going to ask someone same thing um what is the's response going to be to our if we approved an extension D has the ability to supersede an order of conditions that we issue if they do not agree and them issuing a comment that states that this project does not meet the performance standards would indicate that they may do so and that at some point you either decide to go along with speeding up things finding some other solution very quickly or going to court is that it right and and we're aware that DP may do that we don't know that they're going to do that sure um but they would have that right and we would then have the right to go to an adjudicatory hearing and assert these arguments there and then maybe there'll be a case on a geotextile bag yeah um but we're hoping not to have to do that we're we're hoping that this board would see fit to giving us temporary approval and we're hoping that the D P will notice that it's temporary and not take any other action but how do you fight the point that Ed made and Pat brought up again that it becomes permanent the bags covered by sand act like a sand dune which is and uh so I have two responses to that it's not really permanent because it involves renourishment and the client the association does not want that to be preped petual there's a recognition that something dramatic has to change with the road realignment and location and they're actively exploring that they want a long-term solution and so that's why the request is for temporary relief and how long is what is the extension you're looking well we're looking for a permit to to after the fact authorize this which would be a threeyear permit three year okay that's what your orders of conditions are typically what's a realistic um timeline to get a permanent um proposal defer to Chris on that one the permiability is difficult for most of them so it's working on Logistics and design and that is the next process well the first process is having the community come together to agree upon a solution that makes sense to them uh and then it is find finding um a contractor and an engineering firm that will be able to be able to carry out and design these Alternatives that we've developed over the last 68 months sobody really hasn't answered my question it how much time that's well let me go a different direction uh if you're you have a plan that you are uh you're trying to put together identify what you could afford identify what's feasible get all the permits do you have a uh timeline for doing this an agreement of your uh owners that you could stick to that timeline and could you come back to us with it I think we could I mean the stage we're at is that the feasibility study is in the final stages of uh the draft that's going to be submitted to us within the month yeah by the end of the month then going through it then we need to bring our community bring our homeowners on board and make decision on which of the Alternatives that CH Chris's firm has has developed will be followed up and how and then we'll have to start the design process because of well I'm talking about okay and then I'm talking about also extending the whole so that you're coming back to us this is volunteer I presume but coming back to us to identify the construction or all the other timelines n why because it's going to extend years out I think I you know what you're saying is three years is not going to get it all done they're going to have to come back for an extension if we approve a threeyear well I'm not so worried about that they couldn't come back for another two another if they had proof of their agreement by the community if they had bonds or whatever it takes to produce your own particular solution I mean I think if we're we're demonstrating intent we're demonstrating process for demonstrating commitment we should be able to do that within two years easily we we may still have process to go through with permiting and everything but we are we are definitely moving along the road and the threeyear probably will end up turning into next time 6 months a year less you know in other words as you come down and you don't really show that you've achieved what you achieved we're going to tighten things up that's fair is that a and what are they what are we going to do when we get comes three years and they haven't produced anything we have an noi that was due 21 days after the emergency permitting um oh yeah that was back in January could I make a suggestion in this Regard in April one of the one of the things that when I'm involved in court litigation when there's need for oversight the court often asks that there be periodic reports filed so if you see fit to give us a permit we you could require us to file a written report or even appear before you to report on progress so that you know that we're not going to take the three years and say oh we didn't get it done we we we could report periodically to you on that the problem with this is that it puts a lot on us yeah going against the which we don't normally get involved with ultimately it comes down to the the simple fact that you could give us progress reports all along and still at the end of three years not have anything to show for it and we have nothing we have no recourse for that but you know we don't really actually have three years because we're we have so much inundation and and so much storm damage I mean that we really don't have any choice we haven't had that up till now we had King tides and some inconveniences but we really actually we have to make a decision and and we finally have homeowners agreeing that we have to make a decision which has been hard it's been a hard point to get to well I think you come to us with a with a solution when you have that solution that you that you'd like to be permitted but I don't think it has anything to do with this and I don't think it has anything to do with what we're trying to do today uh I mean ultimately we have to decide on this on this particular notice we can't you know I would not be comfortable making any long-term conditions for this as well um or making making future uh permitting available for for something as a as a matter of condition here um so that brings us back to what what do we do for right now well I I'm I'm divided I mean I'm sympathetic towards your your your problem we go out there often and you know whether it's checking you know a permit site and then we go along this road and I certainly can understand the problem I've certainly kayaked enough times and I live in Lewis Bay at Robert's Cove and the other Cove and see the issues and I feel I and I you know I know you need to come up with a permanent solution my my frustration is it's taking so long to get there you mentioned 2022 I went we were out there before covid with with issues that's how long it's been you know and uh and that's a frustrating part about it you know um and I I understand you have to get 40 yard homeowners to agree on something and you probably can't get them to agree what color to have the road um so um I'm I'm sympathetic to that but I also have to think about what what the effect is on on the ecological aspect of all this and and the trust that that something is going to happen even though you say it's going to happen because it hasn't happened to be honest with you um so that's my that's my frustration um you haven't been here as long as As I have but I'm a newcomer yeah but Pat certainly has can we can we share the final report that Woods Hole group has done with the board share the I'm sorry the final we share our feasibility study what the Alternatives that we're proposing when it's finalized with the with the commission that would be wonderful but I'm not sure that would impact their vote for tonight we definitely would not would like to see that provide any comments where we can shorten the hearing process for you so would it be possible to have a straw vote so we can decide what if this was looking like we might have a majority of the board in favor of this or whether there might be a majority not in favor well I don't typically do straw votes but never done that I think you can pretty much tell how I'm how I'm leaning so well my question about what happens if we don't give you an extend it's not an extension you're approving the yeah it's not an extension is just order an order they would have to remove them what conditions can we put on the order that make us feel comfortable I guess is my question biodegradable option yeah I'd pull it out and put the biodegrad biodegradable and then for these the one that you can see the ones that we what about the ones you can't see though wouldn't that would that those sit yeah you know sitting totally open like that I would let that sit personally because it would take more taking it out but these I'd like to see so this they're only a tiny bit exposed the larger array there's some exposure at the end but they're mostly covered on the other side there are some at the base blurry picture yeah if the commission is going to kind of make a hybrid decision would it be worth while to have an onsite meeting um I think that you can do that under the open meeting law you can you can have a a quorum have an on-site meeting in compliance with the law we can have an on-site meeting without making any decisions and any discussion we can just without without having a an official meeting as long as if there are three of us there we can't discuss right anything but we can listen to everything because there is a financial ramification of this and so if we could have have that input from you to decide on what may remain if possible and what may not that would inform our decision-making process I think everything that's exposed I would like to see that that was replaced we need a revised plan for this repl that you're looking to continue yes to see if they would plan with biodegradable material will tell you right now that's the only way I'm even remotely considering voting for this is if there's a biodegradable component to this and a significant biodegradable component otherwise I'm prepared to vote no right now so for the 110 foot stretch might help to so how long is this stretch 810 ft the smaller stretch is the one that was closest to the roadway that yeah okay so you would have to consider how much if any of this array that's covered cuz that one is 800t long the other one is only 100t long which are fully exposed but both are is what you're saying right this tiny one is the one that's 100 ft long over here so the 800 ft when we we didn't see I didn't see it all but the part we did see it was pretty packed up down wasn't it yeah the westward side is very full fully covered and I would say like 20% of it on the Northern side in this photo is slightly exposed but not as much as the other section you can see about half to 3/4 of the bag on the front that's go ahead go I'm just going to say I I still I still think it comes back to this whole idea like keeping geotextile bags there it's like a rock yeah a and it does meet the performance standards for Coastal Beach and dune and so I think yeah you you're still looking at replacing right that at least all of them at least that's what I would say you look at replacing all both both sections 100% what there the problem I have with that is that sometime you're going to take them out if you've got them exposed and they're degrading more but the others are not exposed and if we if we would get an agreement that they would as they are become exposed or whatever the whole thing get replaced but if when you take them out you also disturb the bags and they're I'd rather see them sit there and not uh become exposed once they do then replace you going to put sand on it over and over again well I think that the the end no no no no that's exactly what's in so I understand that point I think it's a good point I don't believe that on any other situation the board would approve something if it didn't meet the performance standards only temporarily so we would always expect the performance standards to always be met in any s sort of project that we see and we wouldn't usually approve a project if even if it doesn't meet it for a portion of the project so I understand the disturbances is definitely a factor here and they've been in there for a while but if you applied that to another project it wouldn't we you would never apply that to a different project but it's if I remember when we when they put those stones in we ended up didn't we end up keeping allowing them to keep those large rocks or we made them move them out I forgot they didn't put stones they just put sand they put what I think they only did sand about you're talking about the illegal yeah it was rocks ille did we we all them to keep them because the we were worried about it would be more disturbing to take them out more of a disturbance to take them out and I think that's my feeling about this section that would be more disturbance to take it out um they could work harder to cover what's ever at the very end there or maybe take that part out I I can't tell how much is exposed from the picture but uh the other section certainly they should be able to replace this is where I'm coming from I'd be willing to vote to allow that to stay and the other to to to be taken [Music] out about a two years way the other we need a revised plan so are we voting tonight or continuing this i' like to continue I think to get a revised plan and maybe by get the sense that you you'd like to continue and see what they can offer uh and I again I'm I'm going to be up front and tell you it's like I I I tend to agree with the EP on this one and uh in the current form it does not meet performance standards I had that concern back when you came came before us and you said you couldn't find the uh the uh soft soft bags and I shame on me I let myself be convinced by you and other people to allow you to do that because I was thinking it's it's going to be a temporary solution but so shame on me but I'm not going to do it again so that's just my but you still have three more people and I assume Paul will be willing to uh mull Mize himself uh so he can vote next time as well um that's where you are okay so that was one of my questions whether you've adopted the Mullen rule so you have okay so if if we're looking um at a continuance what what is it I want to make sure I understand it so we're looking at coming back with potentially a proposal to maintain some and then change out others into biodegradable and do we want to have that onsite or have you do have you felt like you've told us the areas that are of concern I don't think I need an onsite okay much as I enjoy going out there yeah um okay with that being said then on behalf of the applicant we'd like to ask for a continuance you the fifth 5th of September well let me ask how much time you're going to need I can't on the fth the fifth is kind of tight um they have to do a design to um our team the 19th then you guys can do it for that okay how about the 19th 19th yeah okay uh would somebody like to make a motion to continue uh to September 19th so moved second all right all those in favor I opposed carries unanimously thank you very much we we really appreciate your time I know this is a thank you long one I'm bleeding your pig here ch right uh next order of business is a notice of tent for SE 83-282 uh town of Yarmouth 316 669 674 700 728 Route 28 as proposed gravity sewer Crossing beneath the Parker River and three pumping stations in land under the ocean Riverfront area land sub to Coastal storm Flowage Coastal Bank and buffer zones and again we are still without natural heritage and DMF comment is that correct that is correct no natural heritage for this one well there's no natural heritage for this one have we got a DP file number no yes there there's both for this one pardon I think there's both for both yeah um sorry got to go back to my not for this okay well I didn't submit it to that you it's the DMF sorry let's resolve that then at some point between the next I could double check the map but am I right do you want the mouse or do you want me to yeah that'd be great thank you Mr chair again Mike Judy from CDM Smith I'm here with Maggie lofstead from CDM Smith as well so this uh noi is for a portion of two contracts that are in contract I'm sorry phase one again of the could scroll or use the arrows up sc's not letting me oh there we go upsite way thank you um uh two contracts contracts five and six of phase one uh so our ear discussion uh revolved around contract three which is shown in green on the figure the area along Southshore Drive and a portion of uh Route 28 uh that's currently Under Construction contract two was shown in yellow uh also currently under construction those are both covered under uh both the previous noi submitt and an RDA for the pipeline work in the streets uh contract 4 shown in the blue to the east uh at the Bass River Bridge area was just bid recently uh was actually out of concom jurisdiction so the subject of this um noi is for the two remaining contracts U between Parker River and the baronville Town Line um as part of that uh area uh design we have three Wastewater pumping stations uh the first of which um is located near mil Pond out in this area uh the second one and that one is actually outside of the 100 for buffer this was not included in the subid uh pumping station number two uh next to the bog area in mil Creek and pumping station three down at the Riverwalk Park uh site uh in addition there is a crossing a proposed crossing of the Parker River um at that location as well on 28 so we'll start with the pumping station two again this is uh down near mil Creek at the bog area across from Standish way uh the existing site is essentially a paved and graveled parking lot uh we're proposing to inst install a submersible pumping station at this location um I'll show you the site plan might be easier to see so Route 28 is across the bottom of the sheet uh the bog area is up in this vicinity um so this is the proposed site working from left to right this is the wet well where uh the gravity sewers will convey the Wastewater collected along Route 28 um to a well where we have submersible pumps uh those pump through the second again these are below grade structures with maybe a 6in stickup um second structure is a valve Vault there a series of valves and a force main pipe that will come out through there into this third structure up near the road that's a meter Vault so there's a meter there that will measure the flow that's being pumped up and'll be pumped to the east uh to a gravity sewer up at Higgin Crow Road there's a Control building associated with this and it houses electrical equipment uh to operate the pumps and behind the Control building is uh and shown in the dark rectangle is a emergency generator we also have a area designated for potential future uh Oda control equipment should it be needed uh the Control building is um 16 16 half ft uh by it's right there 11 and a half by 17 ft I'm sorry just to give you a sense of so it's essentially a a shed type structure so for this site um we did include a storm water report uh in the submitt uh site does comply the design does comply with mass storm water standards um basically the back half of the site for the most part will be handled uh with infiltration through the gravel area to be installed and the front half of the site more or less be handled by a small bio retention area to be installed between there is a little access driveway um in the site between the structures and Route 28 so there's a bio retention area proposed for this area to handle uh that portion of the site um storm water and that will overflow um eventually down into the the bog area yeah so that storm water will be contained on the it'll be contained on the site I but some over the overflow will go back to the B and the gravel area I I believe yeah it's in the storm water report uh the TSS is at the 80% for the gravel area and 90% for the bio retention and uh should we talk about the the uh since this partial this side is partially within the the land sub the coastal storm Flowage so we have to raise the grade um up to 133 ft so yeah ahead so the the 100e flood elevation in this area is elevation 11 so we have to have our critical equipment associated with the pumping Station 3 ft above that 100-year flood so it's elevation 14 so we've ENT we tried to minimize the amount of uh fill we have to and Grading we have to do on the site so the area is essentially graded to around elevation 13 and then with the the foundation for the for the concrete um sorry for the Control building to get that f floor up to uh elevation 14 it's just going to be uh raised above the existing grade or the proposed grade at that point to get to Elevation 14 so yeah we do have some permanent impacts in Landy the coastal storm Flowage at that site and that was what the variance request can I just quickly ask what happens when the bog is uh is flooded and is how does that affect does that affect any anything no and you can see from the existing pictures so there's a retaining wall here and I didn't point that out so this is the site looking from 28 out toward the bogs so you can see here's the pave parking area there's this retaining wall here so that picture is is taken from the right in this photo so the bog area is at a much lower elevation here um beyond the retaining wall so when that gets flooded it it doesn't impact the parking lot at this point question and for pumping Station 3 as I indicated that's going to be located at the Riverwalk Park site and that site already had a storm water report done for it um and it included what was originally proposed for this site for this pumping station so what we've what we've shown here is uh We've made some revisions to the design of the site including the size of the building originally when that storm report was done for the Riverwalk Park project this the Control building for the pumping station was 40 ft x 50 ft uh We've since reduced that to 40 ft by 24 ft so we've cut that uh building in uh almost in half um in addition as shown in the table so you can see the roof area has has been reduced substantially um and and the access driveway and parking area if you will um is smaller as well so it's about a 30% reduction in the impervious area over what was included in the original storm water report and again similar situation here this is within the 100-year flood plane existing grades are on elevation 8 so to get the uh equipment associated with pumping station above that 100 Year Flight Plan 3 ft above we do have to grade the site out um by several feet to get up to Elevation 14 and then again we be utilizing the the the storm water system infiltration system that was already designed as part of the park again with a smaller impervious area so that is sized appropriately to handle the new design of the site just quickly overview of the site plan so this is uh again Route 28 uh the top of the sheet uh the the driveway access road for the new park project is to the left of the site uh we have plantings you know to help screen uh the pumping station both along that western side and Eastern side and along 28 uh this is the control building that I mentioned here roughly 24x 40 ft um the wet well again this is similar as pumping Station 2 a submersible type sedation so wet well here valve Vault uh meter Vault um and then Force main going out to the Wastewater facility up on Buck Island Road and then lastly um again we talked about the resiliency um mitigation measures typical compost logs uh spill control and then another component of the project in um included in the submitt so the flow from uh the area east of Parker's River needs to get across the river to go to this uh pumping station number number three that will again convey flow up to the water resource recovery facility and the the method we have uh we pursuing or have chosen to get that flow is uh what we call a siphon um under Parker River so this would be proposed for uh the area north of the new bridge uh there are two siphon pipes a 6 in and a 10in of proposed 6 in to handle low flow and then the 10-in Overflow for higher flows once more areas are connected um the intent is to install this using horizontal horizontal directional drilling HDD which is a trenchless technology where um a drill rig would be would uh start on one side of the river uh drill underneath the river and uh attach to a pipe this is again uh high density polyethylene pipe HDPE pipe plastic pipe that will be then pulled back through the drill hole um by the rig and then process repeated again for the second siphon and then the last is just a summary mention the work areas for the for the HDD that they previously Disturbed we yeah so this so the way this will work is the way we've envisioned this the drill rig will start on the western side of the of the river um if you're familiar this uh Captain Parker's Restaurant is here there's an access driveway here to the Pirate Museum there's a a gravel area here that's used for parking for people that that fish along the river and at the dock um so that would be the work area an extended area around that uh vicinity in both the grass area behind the axis Road and uh we do have to install a structure um in that Park parking area so uh that's the work area on the Western Bank on this Eastern Bank this is a town park if you're familiar with it there's a a walking trail in here and some benches this is all previously Disturbed so we'd utilize that area as uh as a work area on the Eastern side of the river and we we uh plac the work areas above the Coastal Bank you made sure of that that we're not altering any Coastal Bank but we are in the 35 foot Zone in the 50 Foot zone so that's another that's a variance that we're requesting for that do you want to talk about why we can't go on the south south side just to explain to the commission maybe well the intent here was this is this is town-owned property so we wanted to take advantage of that um it was a little tighter on the South Side it would have been a shorter Crossing but with the with the other facilities the building and um the parking area um we needed we needed additional room in order to make the drill work there are certain parameters that the drill rig can drill certain angles that they can carry that you need to make sure um are available to do the drilling and and we also are we are have filed um as chapter 91 um Li for chapter 91 license with mass DP waterways for that Crossing and also um a preconstruction notification with the US Army cor US Army cor core of engineers um under Section 10 this is just a summary of the whatl impacts how soon you expect to hear from them um well it's we filed it was 3 months ago or something so you should be seeing it very shortly the public notice ended was it the beginning of August I believe oh okay so we pass the public notice time yeah yes and there was no public notice for the PCN for the Army Corp of engineer permit MH any questions it's also simple if only uh Britney anything no no questions anybody in the audience anybody on Zoom all right uh so again we are waiting for DMF and yes on the natural heritage or no on the natural heritage maybe we should find that out prob probably not I just had checked it out probably not okay uh so we're waiting on on uh solely on DMF comment at this point then uh would somebody like to make a motion to continue to we pry for the 5th that would be great September 5th uh and again this is solely for a DMF comment so we're approving pending this comments yeah we won't make the actual approval until next next week this is just the cont this is just the continuous to to September 5th so moved sorry I fell as all right all those in favor I opposed carries unanimously so we'll see you on the fifth thank you very much thank you thank you thanks all right uh next is a continued certificate compliance re 83221 18 Acres of Pines Association Incorporated 65 Lewis Bay Boulevard Beach nourishment and riking good evening everyone um for the record I'm Mark Burgess of shorefront Consulting who uh designed and permitted the project from the beginning and um the goal here tonight really is just to obtain a certificate of compliance with an with a a specific ongoing condition among the ones that I suggested in my letter um to allow on ongoing uh be tring the short answer is that this this is a procedure that was allowed in the order and they've been doing it for years and they just want to be able to continue to do it in the manner that they do it um and we I think we just have to craft a correct a correctly worded ongoing condition to allow them to do that um the president of the association Karen Frost home is next to me and she's going to describe how they've been doing it and um and after that we' hopefully just arrive at some consensus as to how they can continue to uh rake the beach so with that u i hand it over so um so the Acres of Pines board is it's very well versed in in responsible Beach raking um I think we've done it really well in the past we make sure that we um we hand rake or remove by hand um we make sure that we take Extreme Caution in removing any sediment sand we know the importance of holding down the sand the the Rocks the Pebbles and so forth as sediment that keeps the beach in place and prevents erosion um I believe that we dispose of it responsibly and properly um and uh We've you know we try very hard um to do it uh the right way we take great caution in leaving rack line we know that's an important part of the ecosystem of the bay um we all are very concerned about the bay so we want to do things on our beach um in the proper manner to help um contribute to the health of the bay okay yeah so there's no Machinery everything's done by hand and um corre you let it dry before you we let it dry we it's stored in um two separate spaces for the duration for the summer and by the time we remove it at all it's dry it's not on the beach drying it's someplace out the beach so right here as you could see when we were there the other day there's a pile of seaweed there yeah I don't know about that cuz we haven't raked this year that to my knowledge would that be I live in the next beach by the way could that be um um people who don't know better you know who want on your board doing that I can't speak to that I don't know that's right at the property line there's there's a Bound in there somewhere I know where it is okay do it if you were going to rake if you were on your beach and you were going to rake you don't care about the property line you just throw it there and that's my guess is what happens MH um it's wondering if there's a way we can Pro where where do you usually leave it to dry we can we can leave it in the parking lot that's great that's fine it just can't stay like this uhuh yeah if you somehow can communicate to all members we whose property is that on currently is it on your property it's kind of it's halfway on our property and halfway on the the adjacent property yeah yeah the bound that David's referring to is in that pile somewhere yeah that post that post is our property line yeah it's a sign my my guess is came from your Beach just from the way it looks yeah the beach isn't great you know I think it's just a matter of communicating to your membership yeah leave you know do not rake yeah in my beach I had to go to the board and I said take that rake off the beach people out no I agree in fact um we have our annual annual meeting on Saturday and Britney had given me um uh some literature I actually printed out my own literature managing managing seaweed accumulations on recck beaches it's from the Massachusetts office of coastal zone management so I was going to share this with our members too just so they could have a little bit better understanding um of proper practices and reasons why and reasons why exactly as I said I live on the I I'm on the Anglewood Beach Association and I'm always trying to educate people yeah I do the same my dad was on that and then there are renters who come and I'm sure that's true for you and Y think they can do what they want so you're okay with the continuing condition then for nourishment what they're asking for two ongoing conditions um when the trigger points are exposed once more an additional nourishment because the permit was for nourishment and ring so one one time additional nourishment and also for for ongoing raking for in perpetuity um without an open permit if we issue the COC the permit would be closed and we would all be allowing them to rake in perpetuity which we don't have never done before yeah I would argue I don't see any rationale for that for which what are the trigger points we have a specific yeah so the trigger points are uh rebar or concrete can't remember which they're installed at a certain elevation underneath the sand so once they're exposed it indicates that the sand has been lost to a certain level and so that the beach would be allowed to be nourished once more to the initial profile that was approved in the original plan yep and that volume is predetermined by the calculations um and special conditions 8 through 15 cover that procedure they're already in the order so we were asked that those get carried forward in the certific and then special condition 17 is about the beach raking and if we need to beef that beef up that wording to say for instance you know that any ra seaweed has to be put in the parking lot to dry it can't be allowed to stay on the beach no no problem um how do we usually do Beach raking you need an open permit to continue Beach raking and all of our other beaches that have been raked so we that's what I would encourage that to keep an open permit to file for another permit that's just for raking um so I don't have I don't have an issue with the nourishment uh and we can't really you can't put a condition on a certificate that isn't in the original order so if we didn't have it in the order to say it has to be removed to the removed it has to be stored off site someplace or in the parking lot or however you wanted to say it you can't put it on a COC and so that's my that's my biggest issue with that um we Tred to extend this permit and I think that if I'm hopefully I'm not mixing my projects up there's a bunch spinning in my head I think we tried to close we tried to to extend the order and that was denied saying you need to just get a certificate of compliance am I am I wrong it was for the nourishment portion I would believe well it was the whole order but we wanted to extend the whole order so that they could continue to do this and the answer we got back was no you now you need to apply for I mean both portions would it's the same argument for both portions that we're not allowing you to do nourishment in perpetuity we can't allow you to do something that you got a permit for in perpetuity it's it's a one additional nourishment and and nobody to do one single additional raking it's not really the same comparison but I don't think it would be to allow raking in perpetuity without an open permit it's a little different than than the nourishment closing out okay well that's why we're here we can be a little different how is yeah 17 how does it say should not be carried out within 10 feet of dun's vegetation he should be kept on know it's pretty big little so the only specific it's missing really is is to make sure it's removed from the beach and put on the parking lot uh that's an enforceable condition meaning even if it's not in the writing and you have another picture like like what Britney has there with the pile that's an enforcable condition well I can see that we need to change this condition the word the wording of this condition we did have just for the future just of note we we did have an in I I wasn't here during that period because I was traveling but we did have I was reported to that we had a um a situation I think it was beginning of August with the heat humidity the strong Southwest winds that accompanied it um we did have quite a buildup of seaweed on the beach but it ended up not being just seaweed I think somebody had found a couple of dead birds in there and there were dog feces and um quite a bit of fishing line and trash which was removed by hand by the members you know obviously to get that out but it was it was during that time period of you know that very uncomfortable weather that doesn't help me with this so with the nourishment we're looking at one additional is that what we're saying yes at some point don't know when so I saying I don't have a problem with with doing it for like a one once additional one additional uh nourishment M okay we don't either yeah um I'm a little less thrilled with the idea of doing be tring in perpetuity with without having a chance to come back and especially given the uh order the way it's written I'm not real thrilled with the wording about that because I it just sort of I think there's just too much stuff that that leaves it up in the air it's like if you can you go back to 17 again please oops minimum man raking shall be focused in areas of significant accumulations of nuisance seaweed so what's that mean well they have to leave the rack line so it would be something in something in excess of a normal rack line I guess so I mean if you what's a nuis what's nuisance to you and what's nuisance to me I would might be different I would suggest but it's certainly going to be different um somehow somehow the regulations have to be written and and I agree maybe this isn't written to the the the level of detail that you would like um if we can't change it you know can we live with it knowing that they've been good stewards of the beach and that that picture is an enforceable action if if someone decides to do it and it gets noted and reported that's an enforceable action in in addition to the to any certificate of compliance so with the intent that they intend on continuing to practice and doing it the right way if they don't it's enforceable and we've never done this before I take that can we just do it for three years they come once a year and ask for it I mean they can come back with a notice of intent for be tring yeah well well like I said we were going to leave the order open but we weren't allowed to so we we're caught that way now I I don't want to go through the I'm speaking for you but the expense of another noi and then three years from now we're right back here again well if you have a new noi that's just for raking it would be different to extend that than if you had an noi for raking and nourishment I think they that's what was the problem with the extension is that they didn't want to extend it for for nourishment for another 3 to 5 to 9 years when the the plan is going to go out of date for raking it's mostly you just have an area the plan doesn't have to be detailed and and nuanced every few years for nourishment to be your Beach profile to the height that you want that's why the extension was denied because it was both yeah I think I would be inclined and I in the meantime I'm even willing I'd be willing to even as a compromise I would be willing to do maybe two two years as a just continuing allowing it to to be continued for two for a period of two years um and and if you want to continue after that then I would say it's time for a new notice of intent and we can how would you write that in the COC H how would you write that in the COC COC would just see only allow this COC the beach raking can may continue uh for a 2-year period just just tell them I mean just say that we're we're putting a fine I so a subsequent notice would just be more specific in regards to beach raking and then that could be closed out with an ongoing condition work for everybody is that what you're saying I no I don't think we would they would ever that I can't say that it would be unlikely to ever issue a COC with allowing an action to continue in perpetuity without revisiting um the site the regulations the specifics for I don't think it would be wise to that has to be put into an order yeah you know fre like frequency of of or you know the in the in terms of um you you aren't supposed to be putting anything any condition on on a COC that isn't already in the order of conditions or wasn't part of the original of the original approval yep so under this circumstance I'd be willing like I said I I'd be willing to let you do it for two years with the idea that you would come back sometime within those two years with a new notice of intent and we will We again we understand what we need to do now we need to to shore up the shore up the idea of you know finite areas where you're going to be raking and you know frequency of that frequency of raking and above all else I think the importance of um having having an ability there to uh and I've lost my train of thought and I can't I don't remember what I was going to say now uh we were talking about um to extend to keep it open to extend it to keep it open oh uh well so I guess as part of the and if we were going to continue it or put it put it as an ongoing condition of the certificate of compliance we would also have something in the in the order of conditions that would speak to uh essentially you know you giving us a ample notice and then going for us to be able to go out and assess uh on on the ground situation again every year every three years however we want to do it but we will put that into the order of conditions so that it could be continued then and at least we would have some sort of a mean a means of of monitoring what's going on with the and and controlling what's going on does that make sense no oh do you understand say it'd be nice if it could just if it could be done approved ad administra I'm willing to say guidelines again I I I get it I I'm willing to give you two years this time then come back with the notice of intent and we'll just figure it out then we'll just stop it from there yep cuz I mean if you came okay I'm sorry I know I'm just saying it's like you know if you this is far more complicated than it needs to be is what it comes down to um I'm willing to give you the give you the once I'm done for this for this uh nourishment nourishment current yeah for because of with the nourishment and the and the raking and being all right but I think I I think we still need to do a new notice of intent and we have at least we have the ability to to sit down and do a a craft a better order of conditions that controls that and then I guess the other the other uh side of that is that should we ever because we don't I mean you're right we we have never issued a an order of conditions assuming that beach traking is going to be allowed in perpetuity moving forward we don't even do it with the town I mean the town has to come back every every three years to get the extension a new notice of intent really yeah so I'm well I would agree and I certainly would vote against perpetu can't even say it in perpetuity perpetuity yeah there's lots of conditions that go in perpetuity but this is one that's harder to craft well it gets out of control that's mostly your people yeah I mean not maintenance of mitigation plants well yeah moving looking forward if the if the conditions are crafted correctly they're not now if they were then there's a specific procedure that they have to carry on in per perpetuity and if they're not doing it that way that's an enforcable action you know what we're not going to talk about the future I don't think anymore I'm I'm we have that picture I'm I'm turning the bus around here I I I think it should be a notice of intent you should file a new notice every time because like I said it the ultimately it comes down to the same thing as like we we require the town the town of Yarmouth needs to come back to us every 3 years to get a new notice of intent or a new order of conditions for their Beach raking and I suspect that they are [Music] raking far less frequently than what you end up doing don't they do it every week yeah I thought because the the the trucks go by my yeah once a week once a week right used to do no I'm sorry that's not true they do it twice they're doing it twice a week this year they only did once a week big leg tractor with a thing that sifts everything up and all that right we we um we had we we changed where they could rake right yeah um but that changed that again that was another one of those things that it changed because we had a new had a new noi and I so I think that's I'm sorry we we' I've Chang I've changed my mind I thought I thought we approved only one a week we approved up to twice a week one a week you say but the rest of the board went with two so we approved up to twice a week this year they have only been doing it once a week due to the availability of the shorebird monitors right which my daughter is one of them so she tells me what goes on down there so um it's just on so in if we if we did get a new noi would that under the C you know could we get the conditions that during July and August we could rake once a week yeah that's under the conditions of line yeah it would have to specifically for that and have all those we would work together to craft the order so that it's written correctly so that those conditions could be carried forward correct but that would huh no that's what we're saying we are not or at least that's what I'm saying right yeah what we're saying is we're not then they just have to keep extending it every year then no every three years extend yeah extend you could extend it yeah you just keep it open so you would extend it and keep it open for you know three years probably six but then I what you know I can't speak for what the board's going to be like in 12 years from now but I'm going to be retired three years from now so most likely I will be too but it'll all be different but I understand the principle so the so the closing out that we're looking at tonight would allow a one-time additional additional nourishment and and they're fine with that I'm fine with that it took 10 years for the beach to erode but as we've learned you know Mother Nature is uh flipping the deck of cards on us so so one time should be fine and if it's more than that then they're going to have to file again but but again because I mean everything is going to change within obviously within if especially if it's like 10 years or something you're going to things are conditions are going to be significantly different so it may not even have a beach in 10 years well great island is going to need a bridge not a road probably anyway right yeah so we're going to approve approve the COC with one uh nourishment EXT extension for one nourishment is there a motion to that effect I will I'll second thank you the beach Walker what the beach Walker all those in favor I I opposed carries unanimously so clarify for me what what happens with the beach breaking now do we as an associate what how do I come back with them them we have to back a new noi okay all right and that can still be the sketch plan that we have and it just will show on it where the raking would occur where the disposal area would be things like that okay okay yeah Sketch plan or aerial image I can do that okay all righty next for next season okay all right thanks all thank you thank you the two storms that they were talking about at Great Island I have a couple of projects in Harwich and one in Dennis and they were almost exactly a year it was December 24th of 22 and December 18th of 23 exactly the same Storm from exactly the same condition it took one of my clients that had fiber rolls and a drift fence wipe the whole thing out 50 g and gone in one storm y so I I struggle with what they're going to do out there I think that's struggling what they're going to do it yeah thanks again all right thank you thank you you too another certific compliance this one easy with no conversation whatsoever that's that's always nice SE 83-1 785 dong Carol uh 51 Southshore Drive motion to issue uh so so move like that all those in favor against okay carries [Music] unanimously other business approval of meeting minutes for August 1st 2024 I read them they're fine I move that we accept them second second okay all those in favor opposed cares unanimously uh next order of business another uh other business is osrp open space Recreation plan what is the plan uh ad hoc committee recognition of approved 2023 open space Recreation plan and vote to dissolve the committee so I need a a motion to dissolve the committee first first recognition great job osrp at H committee the committee has done its job and we won't have to vote again till October 30th the committee so Jack is there a second second all those in favor I opposed carries unanimously we are down to uh recommending appointments of the new conservation Commissioners to the select board uh we have one uh person to recommend right now is Bradford Bower and somebody like to make a motion to recommend to the selectman Brad Bradford Bower I'll do that that was Jack came to the interview it was great met yeah great second second all those in favor I I opposed carries unanimously any other business not reasonably anticipated anything I would say about Brad was he's going to recuse himself no I'm just saying you would end uping himself a lot I don't think a lot well he works for the wood I mean there nothing negative or anything yeah we don't have a lot uh we fortunately don't have have a lot of their their uh just one big one just one big one yeah um I have one thing that for Paul while he's out he's our representative to the community preservation act uh committee and the applications for the next round are open they're out they're due September 20th um just so everybody knows are we applying for anything at the moment I think we would be applying um for the chasebrook park project for any remaining funds we do already have some Community preservation act funds from them but just for the Yankee Village parcel so we may be applying to reallocate those funds to all three Parcels instead of being tight on the one in the center um or maybe just some more funding for the bridge for that project okay we still need plenty for the bridge how much I'm not exactly sure how much the budget is n on Nate I don't look at it as often it's fluid but that is our update for CPA applications great anything else any are you going to say anything about planning which planning oh in the future in this fall um we're going to add um goals and a goal setting session for the commission probably at a short meeting so that we can work on personal goals for the commission and small projects that we would seek funding for would that include uh maybe uh Public Communication yeah definitely um out public Outreach focusing on invasive species management and our Wetland regulations how to prevent violations at top of our list for outreach in the past now I'm not advocating this but in the past we've met as an extra meeting if if all our meetings are so full we can also have a planning meeting we've done that for regulations I just want to put that out there because often times our meetings are so long yeah 20 even you know I never thought this meeting was going to last this long you didn't no I didn't but I guess I was wrong I was hoping but but I guess I'm not disappointed either so or Ian disappointed but I'm not uh no I think what we heard was so brainstorm some goals of your own um and we can work together on setting uh fluid goals for the commission as a whole but when I said communication I meant about our own goals yeah you're going to hold separate meeting with some community members or we would be setting our goals internally among the board I guess I'm proposing that we should be getting some kind of the whole um open space and Recreation ad hoc committee with the whole point of that was to get public input there were three surveys sent um to the public and we got public input through that and we had two public meetings so a lot of the goals out outlined in the open space and Recreation plan um should be what we're using to set our our goals and like our action items inside those goals um so that's where our public input comes in maybe yourself or somebody else since we weren't really all of us a part of the discussions and background you would be able to review some of that the goals are wonderful outlined in the osrp Ellie was our representative to that board oh now we have no but you are only so is a plan online yes it's available on the website and in um the town offices if you want to come view a hard copy in conservation or or planning okay how how big how yeah yeah the appendices are like quick print off a copy okay thank you can I move to ajour you may I move to adjourn second there second second all those in favor I opposed We Stand adjourned at 722 right